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Devnote Tuesday:Experimenting andResearchingStarted by SQUAD, March 17, 2015

SQUADDeveloper of KSP

SQUAD staff 17826

Posted March 17, 2015

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864 posts d3fe6844aaf1bd38/tumblr_inline_nldjh5jd7w1rr2wit.jpg"/></figure><p><b>Felipe (HarvesteR):</b> Last week wasmostly about improvingthe R&D tech tree; not somuch about redesigning itjust yet, but on revisinghow it is defined in-game.Up until now, the tech treewas hardcoded into theresearch anddevelopment UI prefab.This was changed now,and tech tree is nowcompletely loaded from acfg file. This meansmodifying the tech tree toadd, rename, revise thehierarchy between nodesand all that stuff is noweasily within reach ofmodders, not to mentionmaking our own lives awhole lot easier as well.But not only that; the pathto this cfg file is savedalong with the gameparameters inside thesave file, which meanseach game can have itsown tech tree definition.This is all theoretical ofcourse; We plan to

implement just one techtree for stock games, butmore mod support hasnever been a bad thinghas it?</p><p>On thesubject of revising thetech tree’slayout, we’vedone a fair amount ofbrain-bashing here in avain attempt to figure outwhat nodes should unlockwhich parts and when…However, this is highlydependent on what thecontracts system will askof you, and because thatis changing in this updateas well, we simplycan’t tell whatparts are gonna be mostneeded throughout thegame’sprogression, not just nowat least. So we’vehad an idea to make thattask easier.</p><p>Instead of arbitrarilydeciding on a new techtree layout, we’regoing to do this in a more‘scientific’ way. I’vecreated a new version of

the tech tree whichfeatures absolutely nodependencies betweennodes. This means allnotes are researchablefrom the start. Also, allnodes have the exactsame cost. This tech treewill be included on the QAbuilds, and during testing,we will ask the testers tonote down the order inwhich they went onunlocking the nodes. Fromthat data, we should beable to run somestatistical analysis to helpus determine which partsare needed first, and howwe should better organizethe tech tree. This processcan also be repeatedmultiple times, to refinethe tech tree layout moreand more. We hope thatat the very least, thismethod will give us moreaccurate insights than justrelying on anecdotalfeedback.</p><p>Now,this week I sat down toget the female Kerbalsworking in the game. TheirEVA models are workingnicely now, with full

animations, as are theirinternal meshes.I’ve set up newcollections of names andsyllables for the crewname generator, so weshould have a couplethousand possible femalenames. Putting thosetogether from syllablecombinations worked justas well for female namesas it did for male ones,which means you canprobably also expect thesame level of lunacy insome of the names itcomes up with.</p><p><b>Alex (aLeXmOrA):</b>I’ve beendoing more accountingwork than dev work. Thereare some issuesI’m helping withabout payments, invoicesand that kind of stuff. Ofcourse, I’m stillworking on the licensesystem, but for now I hadto put that aside andfocus in somemanagment.</p><p><b>Marco (Samssonart):</b>That Duna tutorial is

turning out morecomplicated than Ithought, there are manythings that can go wrongand screw up the wholetrajectory, so I’mtrying to find a way tomake it not so errorprone, but also not fallinto hand-holding theplayer’s everymove, if it were so theymight as well just watch avideo tutorial, there has tobe some action from theplayer to ensure theylearn the concept and canextrapolate it andincorporate it to theirplaying.</p><p><b>Daniel (danRosas):</b>Doing side questswhile working the mainplot, the releaseanimation. I just got anemail with the kerbalvoices for lip sync! Sothat’swhat’s going tohappen next. Side questsinvolve the usual,graphics, things forMaxmaps, and so forth.Fortunately I jus read thateverything that I worked

upon the female kerbals isworking good.We’ll see whathappens on QA…</p><p><b>Jim(Romfarer): </b>TheEngineer’sReport App is finallythrough QA and ready tobe merged into develop.Most of the bugs from thelast round were fixed so itwas mostly a matter ofconfirming and closingreports.<b><br/></b></p><p><b>Max(Maxmaps): </b>As youfine gents and ladies inthe forums and redditlearned, we’relooking at the dev processof 1.0 and considering ourpriorities regarding thecontent we deliver and thequality that it is at. I wantto thank everyone fortheir feedback as theyhave given us a lot tothink about, and we willhopefully have somethingto share later this week.</p><p>On regular jobstuff, organizing ourlaunch plan so far has

proven to be an exercisein plate spinning thatwould make a frisbeecompetition look tame bycomparison. </p><p><b>Ted (Ted):</b>It’s been a grandweek of QA. I’mnot sure if I mentioned itpreviously, but we set upa second deploymentchannel for QA on Steam,so we’re nowable to QA two branchesat the same time.Understandably, this hasreally sped up things inthe QA department andwe’re raringthrough the features.We’ve had quitea number of featuresthrough QA this past weekthough. Firstly we hadJim’s EngineerApp back for a secondround to ensure all issueswere fixed with it andthankfully they wereexpertly patched up! Wethen moved on to QAingthe develop branch, whichis our central QA branchthat everything mergesinto - this was to ensure

nothing is too broken bythe feature merging.Meanwhile in the other QAchannel, we began testingof Arsonide’sadditions for 1.0 - whichare numerous and veryexciting. Mainly,they’re arebalancing of the startercontracts that playersreceive as well as a veryfine-toothed comb of theeconomics of KSP, withbalancing applied wherenecessary.</p><p>Towards the latterend of the week, webegan QA ofMike’s Aero-related changes whichincluded some reallyexcellent refactoring andextension of the systemshe’s alreadydone. QA is stillproceeding on that andthere are far too manychanges in it to evenbegin talking about, butrest assuredthey’re all great!Additionally, that branchalso contained a tentative

implementation of DDSformatted textures forKSP, so far cutting theinitial asset loading of KSPby 1/3rd if not more insome cases.</p><p>Lastly, I’vebeen going over ourinternal documentation for1.0 and ensuring thatit’s both accurateand reliable for currentand future use.</p><p><b>Kasper (KasperVld):</b>I’ve beenworking on getting a plantogether on howwe’re going tomove forward with videomakers and livestreamers. AdditionallyI’ve been workingwith KSPTV people tofinish up an overhaul onthat end. Finally Iaccidentally madeWindows uninstall allprograms on my computerso I had to spend a fairfew hours getting thatback up and running:oops! On the bright sideeverything runs nice andfast again.</p>

blowfishSenior Rocket Scientist

Members 843

2721 posts

Posted March 17, 2015

If each save loads the techtree from a single cfg file,then how does that affectmods which often rely onModuleManager patchesto modify stock behavior?Does the whole tech treeneed to be redefined if itneeds to be changed?

SampaFeeling hopeful

Members 467

3011 posts

Posted March 17, 2015

Are we going to eventuallyget radiators for spacestations in the stockgame? I mean, are thereplans to eventually addthem?

Frank_GKerbol System Explorer

Posted March 17, 2015

This was very interestingto read. I really liked tohear all about the thingsthat happen around KSP

Members 1224

1375 postsLocation: Münster,

Kermany

at the moment. You guysare having a seriouslydense schedule so itseems. So, thank you forall the hard work! Its reallyappreciated. But now i ameven more eager to seeand hear of the new stuffcoming. I hope Max willfind the time for a KSP TVepisode on friday

Bill PhilSome Engineer Guy

Members 798

3750 postsLocation: EML-5

Posted March 17, 2015

Tuesday again! It felt likeyesterday!

Anyhow, thank you all atSquad for working on thisamazing game.

ElthySr. Spacecraft Engineer

Posted March 17, 2015

Quote

implementation ofDDS formattedtextures for KSP

Members 214

573 posts

Very good!

Avera9eJoeYouTuber/Streamer,

Modder

Members 1634

3272 postsLocation: Seattle

Posted March 17, 2015

Good to hear everythingguys . On the note ofvideo makers andstreamers, I actually havea project premieringsometime within the nexttwo weeks which I you youSQUAD employees enjoy

. It's been fun making it.

5thHorsemanTHERE ARE FOUR DOTS!

Members 5229

8211 posts

Posted March 17, 2015

Nice solid devnotes. Whatwe've come to expectfrom you guys. As always,thanks!

SQUAD said:

<p><b>Felipe(HarvesteR):</b>tech tree is now

Location: AlliterationStation

Very nice. You completelyeliminated the need for anin-game tool to modify thetech tree. With this setup,a modder will write one inno time. Heck, one of thefaltering mods to do itwith the current systemwill probably be adaptedto do it.

completely loadedfrom a cfg file.</p>

SQUAD said:

<p><b>Marco(Samssonart):</b>That Dunatutorial is turning outmore complicatedthan I thought, thereare many things thatcan go wrong andscrew up the wholetrajectory, soI’m trying tofind a way to make itnot so error prone,but also not fall intohand-holding theplayer’severy move, if it wereso they might as welljust watch a videotutorial, there has to

That's because getting toDuna is HARD when youbreak it down. It's easy forUS because we've done it.For a new player it'sdaunting.

One thought: Could youbreak it down intomultiple tutorials?

1. You're in LKO, get aDuna encounter.

2. You're halfway toDuna, use a mid-course correction totighten yourapproach.

3. You're in Duna's SOIand Ike's in the way.Oops. Fix that.

4. Aerobrake into astable orbit.

Each starts in a situationthat you COULD havegotten to from theprevious tutorial, but it's

be some action fromthe player to ensurethey learn theconcept and canextrapolate it andincorporate it to theirplaying.</p>

set in stone so you as thetutor have control of thevariables.

4 people likethis

SeyvernRocketry Enthusiast

Members 44

89 posts

Posted March 17, 2015

Think hard about this:

"Instead of arbitrarilydeciding on a new techtree layout, we’regoing to do this in a more‘scientific’ way. I’vecreated a new version ofthe tech tree whichfeatures absolutely nodependencies betweennodes. This means allnotes are researchablefrom the start. Also, allnodes have the exactsame cost. This tech treewill be included on the QAbuilds, and during testing,we will ask the testers tonote down the order inwhich they went onunlocking the nodes. Fromthat data, we should beable to run some

statistical analysis to helpus determine which partsare needed first, and howwe should better organizethe tech tree. This processcan also be repeatedmultiple times, to refinethe tech tree layout moreand more. We hope thatat the very least, thismethod will give us moreaccurate insights than justrelying on anecdotalfeedback."

because i dont think it willdo what you expect.

If you are gaming thesystem, i would unlock themost useful things first,which means the leastuseful things last if ever,even though theyargueably go on the techtree first. For example, I'mgoing to unlock a sciencelab, and science modulesnear the begining, and goscience my way to acomplete tech tree. Inreality, both the currentorder, and what I woulddo in your world, are bothwrong from teh game

perspective. It should gosimple scientificinstruments(thermometer, barometer)- more complicatedinstruments - simpleexperiments - complicatedexperiments - sciencelabs.

Similarly, why would i everunlock the stupid dronecore, when I can unlockthe good one with sas andnode pointing and such?Why would i unlock theinefficient engines when Ican go straight to the bestones?

Counter-suggestion - opena thread asking people forsuggestions on what thetech tree should look likeand why, and use those asinputs.

-Seyv

3 people likethis

TorquemadusSr. Spacecraft Engineer

Posted March 17, 2015

It will be very interesting

Members 199

341 posts

to hear about the changesthat are ultimately madeto the tech tree, and theQA feedback thatultimately informs thosedecisions. I'm sure we'll allwant to know whyparticular parts ended upwhere they did.

It will certainly beinteresting to see howplanes and probes evolvein the early game.Doubtless, there will besome lively debates!

DeddlyMr Nice Guy

Members 893

640 postsLocation: Surface of Jool

Posted March 17, 2015

Thanks everybody for thehard work you're puttinginto the game, and thankyou also for going aboveand beyond the call ofduty and keeping usinformed not only ofupcoming features butalso of your thinkingbehind them. I know we allhave our opinions on whatis and what isn'timportant for the bigrelease, but so far you

have simply gone aheadand done what you enjoydoing, which I think iswhat an indie game is allabout and why KSP hassuch a great feel to it. KSPisn't just a product, it'syour creation.

Thank you.

Nemravassistant kraken tamer.

Members 95

574 posts

Posted March 17, 2015

Glad to see theoptimisation (dds)

Regarding the dunatutorial.. Couldn't you dosomething more simpleand less daunting... say amun to minmus transfer...There's more room forerror, accomplishes thesame kind of intercept. Itwouldn't appear asdaunting especially....

regexPeace, Love, and the R-7

Family

Posted March 17, 2015

Seyvern said:

Think hard about this:

Members 5586

7340 postsLocation: Eugene, Oregon

"Instead of arbitrarilydeciding on a newtech tree layout,we’re goingto do this in a more‘scientific’ way.I’ve createda new version of thetech tree whichfeatures absolutelyno dependenciesbetween nodes. Thismeans all notes areresearchable from thestart. Also, all nodeshave the exact samecost. This tech treewill be included onthe QA builds, andduring testing, we willask the testers tonote down the orderin which they went onunlocking the nodes.From that data, weshould be able to runsome statisticalanalysis to help usdetermine whichparts are neededfirst, and how weshould betterorganize the tech

I'll echo this. It is not goingto work in any way likeyou expect. If playingcompletely stock I couldunlock literally half of thenodes and explore theentire solar system, andthen just unlock the otheruseless nodes whenever Ifeel like it. I mean, you'llquickly figure out which ofyour parts are terrible, butthat's about it.

tree. This process canalso be repeatedmultiple times, torefine the tech treelayout more andmore. We hope thatat the very least, thismethod will give usmore accurateinsights than justrelying on anecdotalfeedback."

because i dont thinkit will do what youexpect.

HarvesteRKSP Creator

Posted March 17, 2015

Member 1110

3498 posts

Seyvern said:

Think hard about this:

"Instead of arbitrarilydeciding on a newtech tree layout,we’re goingto do this in a more‘scientific’ way.I’ve createda new version of thetech tree whichfeatures absolutelyno dependenciesbetween nodes. Thismeans all notes areresearchable from thestart. Also, all nodeshave the exact samecost. This tech treewill be included onthe QA builds, andduring testing, we willask the testers tonote down the orderin which they went onunlocking the nodes.From that data, weshould be able to runsome statisticalanalysis to help usdetermine whichparts are needed

first, and how weshould betterorganize the techtree. This process canalso be repeatedmultiple times, torefine the tech treelayout more andmore. We hope thatat the very least, thismethod will give usmore accurateinsights than justrelying on anecdotalfeedback."

because i dont thinkit will do what youexpect.

If you are gaming thesystem, i wouldunlock the mostuseful things first,which means theleast useful thingslast if ever, eventhough theyargueably go on thetech tree first. Forexample, I'm going tounlock a science lab,and science modulesnear the begining,and go science my

way to a completetech tree. In reality,both the currentorder, and what Iwould do in yourworld, are both wrongfrom teh gameperspective. It shouldgo simple scientificinstruments(thermometer,barometer) - morecomplicatedinstruments - simpleexperiments -complicatedexperiments - sciencelabs.

Similarly, why would iever unlock thestupid drone core,when I can unlock thegood one with sasand node pointingand such? Why wouldi unlock the inefficientengines when I cango straight to thebest ones?

Counter-suggestion -open a thread askingpeople forsuggestions on what

Yes, that would be thecase if you were intent ongaming the system.However, we're not doingthis in an openenvironment, but in thecontrolled group that isthe QA team. We caninstruct the testers toselect nodes in a well-paced progression,selecting not the best andshiniest parts first, butwhat seems fit to be thenext logical step.

With the assuranceeveryone is collectingtheir data with theintention of creating alogical, incrementalprogression, we shouldget some usefulinformation. This can onlyhappen with a very small,communicative testgroup, but we just happento have such a group...

the tech tree shouldlook like and why,and use those asinputs.

-Seyv

(Who by the way, areoutdoing themselvesagain this time around.Major props to them,they've done an immenseamount of work these lastfew weeks!)

Cheers

2 people likethis

taterCapsule Communicator

Members 1919

4007 postsLocation: On the side of amountain in New Mexico

Posted March 17, 2015(edited)

The tech tree as a cfg is agood idea. Maybe thiswould allow novel ideasfor unlocking stuff (viatesting contracts, forexample).

I think the order you seethings unlocked by the QAgroups might be sort ofvaluable, but that hasproblems itself. Thetrouble with the tech treeis:

1. planetary sciencedoesn't really drive newengineering.

2. most all the tech in KSP

shows up over a veryshort time span in the realworld, and much of it isconcurrent.

I'd really reconsider theway tech is unlocked, andthink about incorporatingit into play somehow("experimental" parts thatcan fail become"production" parts aftersome amount of use (nofailure), perhaps withinsome parameters thatwould be/replace the partstesting stuff?). Sciencecan play a role for someparts, or "contracts" thatare really space programmissions vs commercialthings that mimic some RLearly flights (all theGemini stuff, forexample).

Edited March 17, 2015 bytater

DeddlyMr Nice Guy

Posted March 17, 2015(edited)

Seyvern said:

Members 893

640 postsLocation: Surface of Jool

I was thinking the samething. But perhaps itwould work in reverse?For example, if you unlockthe best probe part first inthe test model, that's theone that should beunlocked last in the finalproduct. I am guessingthat's what the plan is.

EDIT: Harvester ninja'dme, and I was wrong.Looks like their plan ismore like a live poll, whichshould work well.

Edited March 17, 2015 byDeddly

i would unlock themost useful thingsfirst, which means theleast useful thingslast if ever, eventhough theyargueably go on thetech tree first.

1 person likesthis

MarcoSSDeveloper

Posted March 17, 2015

5thHorseman

SQUAD staff 20

17 posts

said:

Nice solid devnotes.What we've come toexpect from youguys. As always,thanks!

Very nice. Youcompletelyeliminated the needfor an in-game tool tomodify the tech tree.With this setup, amodder will write onein no time. Heck, oneof the faltering modsto do it with thecurrent system willprobably be adaptedto do it.

That's becausegetting to Duna isHARD when youbreak it down. It'seasy for US becausewe've done it. For anew player it'sdaunting.

One thought: Couldyou break it downinto multipletutorials?

1. You're in LKO,

Thanks for you input,maybe making severaltutorials is not necessary,but you break down of themission is definitelyhelpful.

get a Dunaencounter.

2. You're halfwayto Duna, use amid-coursecorrection totighten yourapproach.

3. You're in Duna'sSOI and Ike's inthe way. Oops.Fix that.

4. Aerobrake intoa stable orbit.

Each starts in asituation that youCOULD have gottento from the previoustutorial, but it's set instone so you as thetutor have control ofthe variables.

2 people likethis

basic.syntaxThe glass is half full

Members 438

1113 posts

Posted March 17, 2015

Thank you - anotherexcellent DevnoteTuesday progress update.

It's great to hear that workis starting on ways tooptimize texture loadingand memory consumption

The "Beyond Beta"announcement told us itwould be possible to fail in1.0 - will the tech tree'srole on the success side,change at all?

Any new thoughts on end-game accomplishments?

1 person likesthis

MajorjimWaterman

Members 4793

Posted March 17, 2015

It is really great to see youguys sharing all thisinformation with us. Itenhances the sense ofcommunity that KSP hascreated for us all.

I have noticed that youguys have increased the

5728 postsLocation: On the river

amount of contact with usrecently and that's reallyexciting as I can feel theend coming.

Or rather, the beginning.

Thank you also for all yourhard work. I look forwardto hearing about yourplans for the 1.0 release.

1 person likesthis

taterCapsule Communicator

Members 1919

4007 postsLocation: On the side of amountain in New Mexico

Posted March 17, 2015

It's a live poll, but it's still"inside the box" thinking,IMO.

Tech right now is THEreward system, so scienceexists solely to unlocktech. Science has no in-game value (useful datafrom science) unless ISRUis planning on adding itvia mapping.

I think the tech treeshould be more complexlywoven into career.

Select a node to

"research." Doing sogeneratesmissions/contracts thatresult in unlocking thepart---these may includeoffering the part (a laparts testing contracts).So you research a dockingclamp, the game thencreates a contract whichoffers the part, butrequires completing amission to dock 2 craft inorbit around Kerbin. (asan example).

Not all parts would be likethis, but many would. Itprovides a way to steernew players a little aswell. Perhaps there couldbe a low science "price"that requires the testing,or a more expensiveversion that buys itoutright (so repeat playersmight select a game withmore science to start, andjust unlock them to avoidthe grind).

1 person likesthis

klgraham1013Space Bard

Members 1275

1833 posts

Posted March 17, 2015

The tech tree is finallytruly open to modderswith out crazy hackery?This is exciting.

SQUAD said:

<b>Felipe(HarvesteR):</b>Thiswas changed now,and tech tree is nowcompletely loadedfrom a cfg file. Thismeans modifying thetech tree to add,rename, revise thehierarchy betweennodes and all thatstuff is now easilywithin reach ofmodders, not tomention making ourown lives a whole loteasier as well.

SQUAD said:

<b>Felipe(HarvesteR):</b>Onthe subject ofrevising the techtree’slayout,we’ve done

Some kind forummembers can help.

- - - Updated - - -

A step in the rightdirection.

a fair amount ofbrain-bashing here ina vain attempt tofigure out what nodesshould unlock whichparts andwhen… Insteadof arbitrarily decidingon a new tech treelayout, we’regoing to do this in amore‘scientific’ way.

SQUAD said:

<b>Ted (Ted):</b>Additionally, thatbranch alsocontained a tentativeimplementation ofDDS formattedtextures for KSP, sofar cutting the initialasset loading of KSPby 1/3rd if not morein some cases.

basic.syntaxThe glass is half full

Members 438

1113 posts

Posted March 17, 2015

Determining tech unlockprogression based oncontract requirements andcontract progression, isworking with the systemas-is. And given that 1.0 ismarching toward a releasedate... that's what Iexpect will happen.

Claw gathered a lot ofthoughtful feedback fromplayers like tater, on whata more logical science andtech system could looklike. Squad, please consultwith these guys, if not for1.0, then for 1.1

gkorgoodDetonation Connoisseur

Members 23

Posted March 17, 2015(edited)

KasperVld said:

...Finally Iaccidentally madeWindows uninstall allprograms on mycomputer so I had to

163 postsLocation: New York, NY

@KasperVld, would youmind telling me howexactly you uninstalled allyour programs? i need toreset my windowspartition, but i don't wantto go through bootcampagain, it was troublesomethe first time. I just wantto erase any extraneousprograms I'vedownloaded, i'll reinstallonly the ones i need.Edited March 17, 2015 bygkorgood

spend a fair fewhours getting thatback up and running:oops! On the brightside everything runsnice and fast again.

KasperVldConsultant

SQUAD staff 3814

6537 posts

Posted March 17, 2015

gkorgood said:

@KasperVld, wouldyou mind telling mehow exactly youuninstalled all yourprograms? i need toreset my windowspartition, but i don't

Location: Rotterdam, theNetherlands

I guess that little mishaphelps someone out then,haha. I 'refreshed' mycomputerhttp://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-8/restore-refresh-reset-pc

want to go throughbootcamp again, itwas troublesome thefirst time. I just wantto erase anyextraneous programsI've downloaded, i'llreinstall only the onesi need.

2 people likethis

Laythe DwellerKraken Tamer

Members 203

746 postsLocation: Breaking Physics

Posted March 18, 2015

I’ve created anew version of the techtree which featuresabsolutely nodependencies betweennodes. This means allnotes are researchablefrom the start. Also, allnodes have the exactsame cost.

So this means that we can

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