' ..... _ .. .. ............ M-.. •

.'blll

DECLASSIFI!f) IN FULL Authority: EO 13526 Chief. Records & Declass Div. WHS Date: SEP 30 2014

Mid 'a the h.u.o. , ..... t.e.itRr· •• f"o.oa I ... .., 24. '''4. _a ,.

a o.t'.aU .. of •• 'ateh"ft .. - .t our pnv'ou •• a"as .. J .... .., •••

11.1'.1, ., th' ... tt .. _til ..... ,1'.,., Sf tie .)" • ),our per'od .. , ,

1ACIUl, t. "''l'O, froia 1963 to I"'. IIfoft _ Ma'. OIl tbt., t ........ 1'1 ••

dt4 )'CN haft • 0"" to brl.f )'our "cc ••• or ••• Iraa of tile Jota' ad.,., 0.0. Ta),lor, "'01'1 )'ou toolt over ,he IACIft politi.' _ •• tbere I tra.ltt_

of ... UOel, or 41'41 ,OU 10 d'Dotl, '1'011 ODe po.t to t1ae otller wttllout •

chac. to talk to )'OUI' .UCH.tort

le!atrl 10. 1 •• W •• 04 It .... 1' .... tbat 1 r.a'a ~a V.t"'asto. for

approalately. -atll. It •• elurl ... tbat .o.tll tllet ...... t.OJ til,,,, .ppeDe4. 1'Iaa Cuba •• b.Ue crt ... developed. 1._ ."" ., office I.

Cba1raan to c..,l.,. quUe I fe. papers tbat _re "'1' va)' .nd diat I ••

1avol .. d 1., but ,"r'ly ,'ter thl 1.t of OctoNr, .t61, ,he CUba. _ •• Ue

'Crill. UM .p. .... of our peopl. t. CIA , .... adlaa CD latalU .... fouad

tba, Ibn.he..... ••• i.taUt ....... _clear at .. U.. t. Cuba. t .ta,ed to the

offtce of the Chat ...... d bpt 1. el ... co.tact .ith o.ller&l ta)'lor. 1 •• t :lD

on & load un, of tD •• tS .... tneludlna thoee wtth thl Pr •• td •• t, to ...... lop

• ,roce4ur. to teekl. tht- CubaD at •• tl. probl •••

Ma~loff'. You "I'I part of 'hi DCOMH .t tD tl_' It!!!lt .... , 110. I va_ .ot a _HI' of •• )'t"' ... acept a •• fonal' Chat ..... of

t'be Joi.t Cht.f. of Staff 1 h.d at ., nap .. ti,. aU of CD wberewtthal fra.

whteh the 'l'ltelU •• nc •• _ p'.ed that the.~ .a.U •• WI', _'" tnatalt.d.

t aue.dect •• ti ... at the White Bou •• with 0. •• Ta,lor. t. whleb tD, we ...

Office of the Secretary of Defense r::-U~ rl"'" Chief, ROD, ESD, WI/S :7 f '("::>72-Date: ~f'I"Z'l~ Authority: EO 135 6 DecJassdy: Deny in Full: Declassii)r in Part: i --Reas~n: ~'l<») ~~~ Ctr UDI) IdDR. (2: -M. ----....... -

5EeRE~b

.. . • \0 I . ., Page d.termined to be Unclassified If!!iewtfl Cllief, ROD, IHS 11\11 EO 13528, StelIOIt 3.5 Oil.: SEP 30 2014

dtle_-aa .,.s and ... na to .. &1 vlth chla ,.rUeuJar pro.1ea. Dul'laa that

_th It .a elecldad '" tha Atlantle enactl that tha c"'n .. O\'ar of 8ACIUl

aboulel .... la,.... lowever, 1 pointed OQt chat a .ood solution to tha prollle.

of trsnsttton would be for .. to beco-. ClNCIUl a~ut the flrlt of Iov..ber aDd . DOt 8ACIDI, ,. ... :1. .. the wo~tt .. out of the arn ...... u on the Cu"n ala ala

crlds. 'l'bat'l what happenad. t racall that t l.ft "Ihilllton a~ut thDe or

four de,,1 .fore the _d of Octohr. 1 v .. inlcalW .. ClICiUl la Europe,

whtcll I gd r.e .... d.d. t did It for thil reun. 1 felt that if t could set a period of coae.neratlon on CtlClUl' I pro.l.... then "' .. ver the Couael1

electded -tt would h appropriate for •• to bec .. SACIft thea 1 would have

IOtte1l the orl.atat:l.on on CIRCBUI. behlad ••

II!t10ffs In other vordl. you vel" puttiDS oa your .. rlcaa het tirat.

Itt!!!Uau, '!'bat', correct. 'tIiere v .. &Dotller "1'1 :Laportaat Da.on for chla.

Tbere wu 101M dbcuIIlon aa to Whether I, as • IACIUB, .hould vidt Berlin. N.

qua.t:l.on ca_ up durlq tbe perlod of tl'aneUtoa. I 1aallted that It ... a .. a­

ara1 prlactple of .1a, that la ukla, over a new .. e:l.s-at. 10U vielt the .oat

re.,te areas of )'OUr respondbUltl •• firu. 1 CODIlder.d lerUa !!!!. _at :Lapor­

taat •• ad so I las18t.d that 1 be penaltt.d to ,0 to lel'11a. Tbar. va. a .. oppo­

a:l.tloa to it, becau,e I bad bean SACBUl d.dsut.. Tho •• in opposition felt thet

tbi' would create a problem vlth the SO\'let Untoa on Berlin and tbera were loti

of people _0 f.lt thet ebb va. a provocative 14... I'vertbel •••• we vent

tbrOUlb vltb 1t aad It work.d out a.trea.l" well.

Jlatloff: Do"ou r.call, fl'0II _OIl elld chi. opposition arl •• - .. dc •• 01'

foralln circla.?

2

.. . I .... •

tW .~ ~.:-"., .,. ; ,. .

05' LASSIFIEO IN PART A Drily: EO 13628 ' Ch ,Records & Decl ... 01" WI' Oate: SEP 30 2014

.'bU' "dc, ...... d,. lODe of our dU •• -pro." .. , If"' ODDcel'll

•• e it. ht .' ....... OUlb ,lilt. hfore, wtth "'1" to .. t4CIUIJQIWlUl

hit., aDd the h1attoUbt, vtth "r11lh

1115ldle 'tou .. tlOll,~ theCu"a~t •• t1a crub. 1 thb"thet ..... pt .. __ ,

t'bat oaa .p. Ap,,"Ilt:l,tltat ettata va. llaadlad .. tte .. _ •. tb!t, h, ofPia'.

At lea.t .at of the wdtl.,. ou th ..... o crt ....... to OOM' ••• h It,. of" .... It .. of t .. HCO~ crt .... _1'1 .fUct. .. tl'.... that yow .,Na.lo.!

"~t. It ••• 1o .. al" DOVIl't .,lr.C1011. !hat .... of ....... ~J. ... t.a

.ll. ·-.s.dl , ...... , of ,,,.. It wa •• eO¥1trt operation r.,lac: up at.l thltJ ..

l~ ... t"" UDeI .... '. 1 ..... th.· -.ct.l laM'" tot "'rva,. hc ·tho ... a

'. "' .. r.~1"1 , .... wttt. the pr •• l ... t. the ec-aD,.r tD Olli.f, illYol.". 1 '

~f:l_.'U.. at tbeWidte ..... 011 • laturda, afta'na, after an .. adt .. .-

t~/~:~},._~t~ ••. W .. bt .. toafoot"11"" llere ,,, IM"""tOlI. 0". _lort ..... ther ••

. " .. _:·.;~."t.i_t1ft"thlt. wt~t atta,ttQl to nib out. but _1' ...... va, '_"UacOp.,ttie lUte lloufe. _.dit .pera~,. Vhm ... lOtto

'C,"_~' •• t~LoD fl'. DI1II .. ' ..... vbteb. It't ....... .

at _broU.d in • '9Iry furious _,UM .. t.t th,t .a.tina. 8bol'tl, after the

••••• e 11'_ Ibn.bebev 'bad be.a r .. d.oDe of the .leI •• ca.e ia .DeI told the

' ... eid ... t that dlere w., an iIIport.at call ,..- .... BteveMoa in lew 10rk.

Cit" aad be left. Atter he left. Vioe 'r ..... d.at Joha,OII 100b' '1'08' the

teble au' .. ld. -I thlDk dlat Dn,beba .. ba,"e aftI', .. 11. ad Utpol'teDt

potat •• Dd 1 thiatt. tbat v •• bou14 acc.pt it .• " .t Uad of .hocbel" t for die

OSO Section 6.2 (a)

.' , , t.

OSD Section 6.2 (8)

, , _.1;.::.:, ~ " __ 4 ....... '.... ..••. J

01' CLA$SIFtEf) IN· PART A "ority: EO 13828 C ,f,.Recordsl Decl ••• DI" WHS Oa1e:SEP30 2014

r ••• .. I tit I \I • I. t ~ *" aD' ...... , •• bout

80 1 pol.te' .ut

thatthur.' _t':.V ....... l .. , _tal ..... Mu.probl .. , but .. woul'.'t

.Jr •• Vitb lb.t.", ~~;

but tble vaa e .. jor aatter 'ealt., "tth the eatlre Allla.ee.

ea_ back, we 4lec ...... d this ... what. but the .. U .... d ••• p ta IOl't of •

,~.t ..... Dd aD .. jor 4.dltoal VeI'e t.k •••• e re.ult of tt.

I._",a 014 ,0\1 ha ... ·th. f •• U .. thet the Joint Ch1.fa of Staff lad .1" laput

itL'~Il' baftdUac of thle crull than tll the ... , of'sae'

'~!ME' V.r, auch 10. beca .... v1len v, .... n tooltt .. for what vou.ldbap,.. if

Ilna.bcbav 414n't t.b htl ataell •• out. 1 tblDk that ttve ..... r.U' ".racood

" ;" ..... 1'" •• tta.t participated, et leen by ebon I coDt.eta', that if he dl'a't

ta~the .. out, w" be •• to a. 1. tbare a.' taka tbaa O\It ournl ... l •

.!I!GdJ' If 1 .'erlteud correctly. J'OU Ite,ad ta V.lhtaatoa ....... iq the _ole

;efl04 of tbat cr1.11 ta October?

.'.1'1 Ifot quite the whol. perlod. t IU"ed ebere _til the laet week ta

October. I, tbat tiM the crtlta' bad .ettled do ....

"Sleffa V. l11li1; .. ta 1962.

_':SHI'I Thet'. vhaa it "I, '62, 7,!,' . "not!: leeause by • 63 you_r-6 ~ ... .4,.~~~TO. 1d!!ais.erl Thit it r1&ht.

. . Pap determined to be Unclassified "viewed Cbief, ROD, WHS lAW EO 13528, Stcttoa 3.5 Date:SEP 30 2014

"- .... ~ ~ . ~ •• * ...... ".... ..... • ~ .

"''1offc tetta co. _. to 1&'lO _. a .. wtll focua OD tut _n. ID JOU

ncall •• 1. JO. neat.e aaJ f.utnctl_ •• _ittea or oral •• fore ,.. wat to

the 1A.'lO ......... at. IIfta .Itur ., the IT •• I_t. or tile leental'1 of Def ..... '

DI. aa,... tutnet JO. a. to an, of the prAl_ or poattlOll. that t .... UDite'

ltate. atpt • taUllI that Woul. pS •• or orient ,. tn JOur new poattion'

Je!Il&t&.rl We be ..... n .laeu.I .. the ... 11ef of "'ral Iorata' •• ea the

.Joint Chief. of Steff aD' the DefeD.e DeperDeDt. !beD, Witb tbe CubaD •• al1e

orlata eoatlll aloaa rllht behtn' It. then wn DO wrttten lutruett_ •• but

.. _rallJ .... ata OD certain a.peete of the polleta. tut __ n ea",11lI

_ at tut tlM.

!!tloff I .bd.o DO .,ectal brieUIlI b, the ITe.ideDt 01' ., the lecntal'J of

Def .... '

elta.r: Bot beeeua. 1 be. an, opportUDltt.a lD., cODtacta with the IT.a-

i'eat to 4len.a eel' tala a.,ect. With hbl~ low, ODe l11pPrtaat .. ,ect here ••

"'l'J .eepl, 1 .. 01ft' beceua. Gea. Bor.ted becl becl .url .. the ._rtlae a 1111.

heart attack. an. he w. ftr, .ntoua to .tap out. I w. cOldIll up to ._tor,

ret1r ... nt .... or cl0.e to It. I recell 0 .. de,. tut the IT •• t'ent ... talkt ..

about how we .houl. _ke the traa.Ulon. Be Iaunr of .., a •• octatlon With lAm fro.

tbe da,.a of Mr. rorre.tal. when 1 r.preaenta' the Unite' State a ¥bUe __ re 'raft­

till the !tAro treat,.. Be cODat'ere' that I becl the be.t bacqroua' aDd aperlence

of lIATO .ad tut 1 ahould t.ke that ••• t .... Dt. rather thaD .ay other. 1 pointed

out to the Prealdeat on thb oecaa1oa--aa' thle •• ae ... r talted about "'l'1 aueh

uutil _ ,ot Into prett,. 'eep trouble fro. it-that I dldntt thlDk I abould

accept the BOIll-aation au' the .ppolDmeDt of IACEUI.. beceuae I wa coatlll up to

5

I '" . \ Pge-det8rllliaed-to.be,UJlclassified

KWiewed Cbiet,·RDD, WItS .",to 13526, SectIoa;3l Date: SEP 30 2014

.. *t.OI" ntll' .... ' .... !ldl "I.t Id._ a bit. Ie di •• ', tht .. that Cha' ....

too '-pol'taa' •• 'a'.. lut 1 po1at •• out that for MIl, MIl, _nt. ... both a.

Cbtaf of ltaff of the An)' Ind. Cball'11an of tha Jotat Cbt.f. of ltaff. 1 v ..

con.tantl, coatl'ORca' vitb ,U •• tiODI .bout c.rtata offlc.r. 1a the Ilto a11f.aDC.

that 1 ha. k80ft for y.dou. by politioa.· ..... )' of thea Pnacb •• Il'ltllh,

.ot. 10 .a, ....... lut tb.r. v •• 1 ,1"1'.1 t."DC, to be .oat .. ti ... r.tl ....

peopl. for key poI:l.t1oal OlD IAClUJtt. ataff. 1 told the 'n.id.at VlI'J fl'aM1J

that oa '.'I'J occaelo. 1 ... c ..... 4 .. tb. tumt ... dova of • offic.1' that ••

aoiDI to be ... ttr.d aDd would be OlD the IIlAPI ataff. 1 ncall .,. vord., that

tha .... a a t.ndeaeJ 1D the AlUanc. tn th. late 'SO. aDd .arlJ "0. that .. de

It look al.at 11k •• ntl ..... t club, .41 that in .Vlr, ca •• 1 bad ... coaMlld.d

••• tDlt. t.hi.. We ha4 conl1der.bl. dl.c •• 108. oa data. '1'0 viDd up What tha

n.tUl ...... 1 veat to IBAPB. tbe ' .... td •• t 'bad 10- into Che pay .Dd Ch •

• pp .. opriat ••••• of a ... tlr., offlc.r, aDd I told hi. that. 1 had deflDltal, ....

up .J _I •• that II .... tlr.d officer 1 would be the Vhoa per.on to take SAClUa.

!be 'r.aid.nt _d. thia c ... nt, -DoD't vorrl about that. It11 tate C ... I of

Ch.t. - Po .. ,II"', 1 IIIVI .. k ... v bov it ... taken can of. Up until that tt_

when the 'r •• i ••• t .a ..... Ii .. t.d. 1 had .. Ic.l •• d .0 VOl" frGa hla. INt VI

had 80M ..... 41. aDd 1 coaidered Chat I had not been ... t1rld.

IIItloU: Wel'l you bri.fld b, lour p ... dlc ... or. GeR •• or.ted, wha. ,ou caM "Id

ldl!!!it&I .. : Ye., 1 veat ewl .... rl" in S.ptlaber. 1 .......... that 1 bad .. en

dovn 1D Port 11'", for • de.on.tration vith 'r.l1d •• t KenDld,. We wen •• tabU.""

iDI the Gr... .....t.. Whil. 1 Vd 40n Cher.. 1 lot • ...... that .. nl.yed

,

· .

to _ 11'_ Gaer.l lontad, ""'" t'bat On. Ie Caul1e ... 11'.41 to tat ...... t ...

of eu opport .. Dtty to i.t.n'.v ... for. _i. ov.r. 0.. a.pect of thl. " ••

dlat I t.v C.erd De e.ulle ta World War II, wh.D be took ov.r the po.IU ..

that the Jotat Chi.f~ of St.ff .Dd 1o ..... 1t aad Churchill had tadteated tbet

Gearel GtrM .. d .hou14 take. 1.... at Ca •• blaac. _t. dae _et1a& there

(Jeauary 1"3). 80 1 bew Gaa. De Onll. ,uU. _11, NeaU" ... bacl ... ,

collfer.ac •• 4vi .. Wor14 War 11. We W wry .1"lre .. '18 'D' acl't.-lou •

• etl ... a wher. he ..... tr,l81 to equlp aa AlI'l'taa .ad • tIorocc.a 4hiatoa .. •

... i. for lOt ... ck tato 'nac •• Ve 41da't have enoulh .. ul,....t to equip our

own dlvi,to_, aad .... _1:. dMlial With deficit., But _n he iadieat •• t_t

he 'wanted to iatentaw .. , 1 1'."11, accepted, I caM oyer .a •• peat ........ ad

.ad a.v.rel de,. of the followias .... t with eea.nl Bont.d at SIAPI .Dd I ... .

• bout a two-hour tatente. wtth een. 'De Gaulle. It ..... ODe of dae ..at .. l_ble

bactarouad .xperienc •• for thla poat tbet I .ver bad.

llalleffe Did,ou let .Y c1. at that tiM that 'nac. aqht be 101 ... aor •

.. parate WlY!

.... ue •• r: Bo, a'aol .. t.ly DOae. Beubd uay very .... rp .... tloa. pertalat ..

to ay vi.... on ""cleer weapoa., and for ebout aa bour aDd • balf. if 1 recall

cor recti, , I V.a •• w.rt .. hla q.attOM, Then I r.ea11 that there w.a •

period of aUence •• Dd he .ald, ·We11 DOW, C.Der.l, ,outve "ea .ery fruk with

_. Bow 1'4 11ke to be fr.Dk with ,011 ad tell ,ou what the policy of the Jl'reach

lover.eat will be durl.., the pertod whea you take ov.r .8 Sup ..... e AlU .. Cor

Mader," Thet w ••• "1', .aluab1e bacqrouacl for ae, to claal with hi. peraonal1,

aad vlth the Preach I .. trllleat,

7

.. .. Put determined ,to _Unclassified . I'" i8wed CIlief,'ROD, .,

" II EO 13528, SectIon 15 • SEP 30 2014

IfItleffl We'll co. ... ek to ... rnacb pro.le •• later _. if .... ,.. Do,ou

reeell how 1 ... dicl 10U .te, .t .. 1t Witb tbe CIIiCIVI bat, 'befol'e ,... took "'el'

SlW'lf

".itHI" ODe _ath. 'l'bat i •• 't .. It. n.hc. two aoathlh We "'1" IeW .. led

Co ba •• ltoth c8r •• al.. the fir.t of ....... 1'. '1'b.at·. wh,. 1 w.c over ia the

la.t ._ of OctOHI'. It f • iatel'l'tJ.aa el.o ... a .1cleU.lat. tbat Da. Achee ..

11ft ., •• hi .. toa the .... de, a. 1 did. b, diff'l'l"t t ... ll.portetioa, to .. peal'

llefore the _1'0 Couacll. aad alia, it. COacll'8l about the ha1ldUaa of th •• 1a­

.Ue Cl'i.1lh Leapl111 wa, ahlad, 'beeauee 1 CI. a1 .. , ........ "1' Ge.. D. Gaulle'.

word. to .. nputad1,. lie would N,. -Ceaeral. ,.our ,,...lde.t "ertook ujor

cled.l0.1 dUI'I111 the .te.Ue c1'1.1I vttbout •• , cOllau1eatl .. whate ... er vtth the

AlUe. _ 1._. that could have ree .. lted 1ft • IUclear "1'... Be nputed that.

1 ...... at l ... t tea t1M.. dur1111 .,. tellUl'8. aut DeaD AChe,OD 41141 IUch ... pu­

tee.t job of prl .. atf.aa the eituetl .. dud.. the .1.eUe crie1l 1a October, and

the I'lpldlt, Vith whleb ........ _I'I f1,ia. Net and forth, that he COIlVlaced

the Counc11 that :lad •• th.rl Val aot ti .. for coalulaU... WIleD he left, the

CouacU v.aaai_uII, alned that it had beea headl, •• II'J It111full, Id .11',

coura.eouel, " 'rel1de.t X.aecl,.

Batloff: D14 GeIl.ral De GauU .. COlI. back to the uRdU .. of till. 1In. lat.r

oat 01' ve. that ju.t at thle polat?

Lellalt.,r, Wblaever VI etarted talUaa about .. ,thina lUelear, be vould brlq

it up. Aa a _ttlr of fect. 0..1. D. Oev.ll. had a VII', tater.aUna atlteMat-­

aot 0Il1, with ... but v1th Cht, lohlea. ad alao with the United State. 009'1'11-

.. at--ta which. vbell comr.r.at1o. atlrted, 01'''''11 he Da tafoNed 01' .ueded

8

.. , . .. • ........ , . . ·t !,~ t ,~. ~

ii' determined to.JJo, . tUJ)c,lassified .' "trclliirf, ROD, WIt' I~ EO 13528. SeetIon 1.5 Date: SEP 3 0 201~

.""ut ... tht., lie would alwa,e a" -. 1 .t. eoanlted, or _ 1 .1.

la'oned'·

lllUoJIt Wbat w. J'OUf lD1Uei coacepUoa of JOUr nle • IAClUlt Wbat pror

~ elld ,ou f,ce "'0 ,ou took oyer aad Wbat priori tie. eltel you eet for ,our­

.. If, or vere .. t for ,011 b, the Pre.tele.t or the SecretaI', of Defe .. e lD

_adli.. ,our fuoetloOl?

le!!a!tnrl TIle probl, .. vere tho .. that ., "pred,c"lOr. ADd ., _ece.lOl'I f.eed.

It v •• olwloUi that .,. had to put the .. in effort 00 bulldioa up IAW t • co .... -

tloul force.. AI a n.ult of the Athea. lutdeUne., e .. eUoa which 1 .ttaacl.d

.... the DUel .. r probl .. v.. fir.t ... It vi th, tba .. p1uae1. val put partic'Ul.rly

011 the C,ra.... lut thi •••• proble. vith 1111 of the ItAW cou.tri,.-lIor_y,

De_rt. CaaacJa, .ad the reet of t .... tryioa to .aka cC8ll1tae.te to ... t the

forc. loal. that we bad •. S.ver.l taetel.acal thl ... ba, .. ad which Clu •• d cltf­

f1c.lt,. "rita, for ... ple, ClU.ed probl ... repeltedl,. Ther. VI. difficult)'

11141 bar ...... t 011 the Autobeha., '041 the. 111 the all' corrlder..lepeat.dl, tbe

SOY1.t Oaioa would polDt out that it va. loioa to cOMuet e .. ret.e., •• d for

48 hour' It ... aot .f, for _, otber pla .. , to fly to the ail' corrldore--.1U1t

plaiD bar .... Dt •

.. tloff: D1cI the cbaaae of ad.toletratioD' which took plac. wile you vel" 1ACBU1l.

the cha0l' froa I.lOae., to JOhOIOD in 1963. 01' the eha ... later on 10 the Secretary

of Def.a •• •• office fr .. lIe .... ra to CUfford Ja 1'68, io _, .. , aff.ct ,our pri­

oriti •• or ,our cODeeptioD. of ,our role ia SACBUlt

..... 1 teer: YII Jad... M I told ., .udieace at the 1.1I.'IIho_r .... ri.l Sa ..... a.,

... of the Urn thi... 1 rao iDto va. the Seeretar, of Defe •• e aad 0111 of ht.

,

· . ! IJleterIlJ_ tQJlI U)lClassified 'tewed Chief. RDD, as

I EO 13528, SeottoII t..5 Date: SEP 30 2014

.... tant. coatna over _4 .... 1 .... to coae 40WD to the .... ., 1ft 'erla,

v1dch 1 thouaht a bit odd. li~e the, wen c_l .. to 'nnce, I felt the, ahoul4

COIle out to SllAPI. It ... 111' ....... r. and 111'. Ittae, head of IIA. Aft.r we

aot Into the .o-called ,case 40wn in the e.'bua, lD 'arta, where conference.

to'ok place Vitia!. a 1'0_ daat .. ....rlOUIlded b, ateel, 1 ... told that the,

had coae to the conel"l1on that 1 .hou14 reors.d.. tbe lBAPI .taff.

-S!!ff I 'fbi. w. "1'1), lD )'our teDUr. .. SAClDltt

1fF!.5Hrl Duri .. the firat coupl. of IIOftthi. ., vere cOlIVlaced that 1

ahoulcl he ... , .t.ff 01'8.a1&ed into _clear ad colIV.atiODll •• ctlou. 1 had

".D thl'oush thl. propo.lcloD la a atucl, d"rl ... )' chalr.aDlhlp of the J01Dt

Cldaf. of ltaff. and ". ca .. to the coaclUllon that It .aD',t fe •• lble or

d •• tr.ble, aD4 that it couln't fUDctton eff.ctlvel,.

_tloff: Tbe alll'd .tafft

MDitaar: The alUed .taff. I pointed 1t aut to thea GIl tilt. occadoa-Walter

Ito .... l acc_pa .. ted .. on ebb vldt, that ,ou caD't •• par.te • tactical air­

craft that ClD drop .lther a co .... ntional or • lIIIIel.ar weapon; )'011. have .rtU­

leI', that c.n fire DUcl.ar,or co .. entlonal .. apon.; and ,our i .. tal1lllnc •

•• n't _parable by conventlOD1l &lUI IIIIIcl .. r. 1 had a pratt)' 100d feel for

thla. due to .)' a.perl.nc. ta the Jo1ftt Ch:1eft of Staff. aDd .0 I .dd, -.0 .. ay. - On the returD to lHAPB. Mr. Sto .... l "" "1', concera.d that it lookecl

like I allht be flrad. 1 told the Iroup that I would onl, .cart r.orl.D1 .. tloa

of ., .taff 1f 1 lot the cI:1r.ctl" fro. the Couacll. But I al.o polat.d aut,

tf 1 lot auch a dtrectlv. fro. the council, It would have to let a .. other SACBUl •

.. tloff. What.s Sto .... l·. poaitton at this ct. .. ?

10

"".:...... ':.-. -..... r..... .. t ..... ...". .... - * ... ,. ........

DECLASSIFIED IN PART

_ir~~~~~Sll'~~~d. DI'. WHS D$:. SEP 3 0 2014

L.".e ..... :~~I' _',,"ruttODal .".'1'" ... _ ...... taft •

.. tlslf. Be., .. ".1' to IACIUI.

l'lo''llre,.,. IIlIallc Dlat .'''''*'''I<olf''. to a. ,._ .... tt., ata't Vi til the ..... tal7

01 hf ••••

... IIIEI 1I*e41t •• , ht .. 1011_ ... ,I ... t to At ..... wttt. ... I".tar' '.',' , >'

....... 1'., .... t ••• t",UDI tt.. •• lear ,I"obl •.••• ,.c ............... t •

• de fOI" ....... of 1MI_ 8tate ... ,... ayaU .. bl. to 1AfO. '!be At .... ",'del.' .. .

.... 11' ptat ... ,. '"", .... , •• DUCleal" .. ,,"ca ..... l".'t bavethe .Ift ....... t.

".,ul, wodred out ... ' ..... ,

111"-' ..... ," na IDtO'., 0." prObl .. wttll Hr. __ I'a t.,.. .. put.,

>.>6., . - '., ... ,*_ I: CAD ctte Ju.t 8M proill .. that X bad .thlll' ...... 1".. X .... ; ....

>.- >1 f".·,·' :,j. . '.' "

;.,,~ __ ·to ... t.....tt .... the 8IAPB.taff ........ alilad fO"I.-.I'_"'_ .

~ ••• i;"'.n Ivope, ..... ad fo" ..... thea.t (X.-,). ODe 01 tbe ... t .t!-'<tkfllt,nbl'" that X ha'.th ..... __ .1' •• _ the lact that 1M ara lOt .. to

.0*"'" tbe.tall at I_lr...a, tUl'k:I ...... 01' .. "'ol'ee ...... latol .... , atDOI'

.11'ad'oI"UI. ht uletath ,-It ••• c~.I"'1' ,.rca •••• tt, _deaD, .. .

'tal.ohad t;he1r forca.. 1 ... "'i.,'. , ... ,.11".1' t ..... ~'_1l ... 1 ... 01 tbat par-

tle ..... 1' ataff .an we ..... 'ted our "0,..1. I".0",1fOI'4 11'_ V •• hl.,toa-"tbt. , " - " ,,"?-' ~ , , ' '" " ';',

W,80t I witteD .'ract1 ....... t1ll' tlW"··.l~~';.~~.'Itt:'.i.IlCl." 'OJ that .atlt •

• nd that tber. had to b. a ... _l1.~Jlt;~.!!'\J

. . . . .

·.r

IiCLASSIFIED IN PART . AUlbority: EO 13626 ", ' Ctlef, Records & Dlcl." Dlv, WHI OAt.: SEP 30 2014

lut the polDt De"er ,ot .Crosl. Ie (Hr •• ".1',) jUlt

.1.ply woul'D't .,re. vith it. I .0D't thtlllr. it .. I ..... 1' tume •• on, but we

""'1' 1"'01".4 thl. particul.r i •• ue .atl.factorll,.

WaUol': How of taD di. ,ou •• t vith the leer.tary of Defe ...... 41 other top

offiet.l,t I' ••• kt ... aow aHut the vorki ... relettODIhip. ia the cour .. of

,ct.- 10. teaure aa BACIa.

-,t&I!'1 latte_d. Irut -111 of the ... pler •• tt..... I 1''''''1' that

the ....... oaetao.c.berp.ch ,..1', whtch WI , ... ry i.porte"t _e, Vb.ere our

..... :i._~f.a.e BecNtal'1 ••• ad for.tan •• t.ter ....... , ..... al.ter •

• t ........ 1.14. f,tr _unt of Cootactt ... by., Ylattl Mck han, to

""'D40"~ ....... 10 OIl. to bep to touch with top .Utary, foreip polic, •

• Dd •• f .... people. I woul ••• , that I .de ••• tttlllpt .tl ... t thl'e. tt •••

,..1' to ,00II8 'ato CODtlct vt til the top poll ticaleleMata 'Of the Allie_e.

Uti, I Dl. tbe chi ... fl' ............ to Cliff ..... Stcntal')' of DefaD ••

toWaH the eod of ,our taaura 1. l'68.'~ect,our' ftmCtiou or 1'01e i. aD, wa,!

.. .. . ". Pap detenniaed to be Unclassified Rwlewod elliot RDD WIIS lAW EO 13526. SeotIOeu Date: SEP 3 a 2014

1eS1,UI "I'e JW ... u .... tl, Vltb OlD tb .... 'b the leel'etal', of Def .....

01' _I" tb'l'e otb.r offtela1e Sa OlD tblt JOu ... S.to OOIlt.et vlcb duri ..

,aur period .. SAClUaf

klBu!.r I HoeU, thl'oulb the '.u.tar, of Def.... or bt. 181 people. _0 "'1" .'1', lauch ta".I.".

II doff : va. th!r. aucb coatact wttb the Deput, 8.l'etal'S.e. of Defenalf

Jt!!!f.WrJ lIot .'1'1 oft ••• Onl, If tt h.p,._ that _ •• t.tt Net 1fha., the

8ecl'etal'Y ... off on _. pel'tieular trlp ad 1 v .. n't .... n.bl. to .et hia.

"yoU: low .bout •• tt ... vttb the Aaerlcen Jolat Chl.ef. of Staff. or ,heir

Chalraan. 1a ,.OUI' 101. .. SACIUJ' DU 'OU cOIle luto fraq.nt contect witb thea'

els&erl Ye •• Ceul'.1 Te,lor, ead thea Cenerel Wheeler.

"tloff: There were fr.quent ... u ... nth theaf

1.f!Ialtller: Yea. 1 a ... r caae tnto W •• blqton without •• t.U witb tlla Joint

Cb!e" of Staff, ead _at U .... wttbout ,.tU .. to .e the Seeretar, or the

Deput,.

Mayoff, Bow about the worktaa reletlon.ht.,. with our State 'Depart1l4mt

.ad tta Secretar"

..... tt •• rl 1 had wry little dtfflcult, witb that. I kept 1D do •• touch,

du. Chip Bohlen w.. • clo.. frt.nd of ala. 1fha. 1 w. SAClUll. W. lot .lona

... r, wll, ladeed. As. utter of f.ct. 1 l'8"'r the letter 1 wrote to Chip

Bohlea wheahe v •• relt.eved aad v •• coat .. kck to reUre, that it w. one of

the beat world.q relation.hlp. betve. the ailltar, ead the State Dep.rt.nt

w1tbt.a U.S. clrcl •• thet 1 could .1 ... 11 ...

lletlofh Bow about witb the SecretaI', of State, haa aukt Did 'ou baw aan,

de.ll... vi. til blla In ,0111' cepac1 t, •• IACSUltt

13

. ,

. , Page determined to be Unclassified

F&~'" .• SEP 3 0 201~

lelb, .... f •• , at the ••• ,ti ... 1.1., •• de it a potDt to .,t with"' •

.... It. ht _t •• of teD •• 1 .i. vlth the hcnta..., of .f.D •••

IIS10ff& low .bous with the Vlaltt .... t D.t. JOU "ft .i .... ct 'OCH. So the

, ... ,.ld .. t t. tid •• paol51"

elm"" f,., 1 d14, .ad 1 took. ..... tIp of tS. to .t l ... s _b • call.

Wi th .... ,.ttleDt 1e...,4, .D4 Pnat_Dt JobDlO., the two ,...wtpa1 ODe ..... t ... . ., te •• r ••

Me",ff I D.t. 7O\l _stet .., ohl.... t. their ,...lorltl.. sowar4 ........ D

theft w •• 0 ..... 0"1' fro. "'D .. 4,. to Jobuont ... cur •• .,. .Uf.ftDo.'

_ttc.!, f, •• b.aU,., 1 414.'t f .. l thlt 'r •• 14.Dt JobDlo. had She ._

Ir •• p 01' UDd.r.taadi .. of li1.'O thlt m.t"DS .... atd' .ld. !'ban w. DO trtc-. tloD 1Nt 1 jut f.lt that ...... I.lftt leue.,. w. b.pl ... 11l !lUCh _r. 010 ••

toacta witb .... t w. hap,.nl ... In Sb. *'10 'I'M. II!Sloft: Did ,ou ,0 dlrectl,. tothl .. Ph.1 ••• t. whn ,00 .... t •• to pt In

touch with tbaa. or .1. ,.00 .... to 10 tbl'oup tb. I1SC ... l.te.tt

I!!!!!mrt So. !'be lonul. 1 .... wh.n l'el _Ite • 'ft.lt Molt 1aI .... w. to

•• k the ChlI....... Jol., Chl.fa of Steff. to _k. .rr ..... nt. for • ,,!l1t 101'

• wi tIa the Secr.tary of Def •••• 01' vi tta the Deput,. "Cl'lta1'Y. ... .0 on. It

..... U .n .... el rl,ht throu,h thtl SHAPE Ltd.Oft off1c ••

"t10ff: Yo. ",.t throu,h the Penta.o., tlal'OUP tbe 8IIAPI Ll.18on Office?

"Sloff, ADd tbe,. would ,.t in contact ""th tbe .ttonal Security ... tetant,

to .rr'DI' ••• tlna with th. pr.Btd.ntt

,

14

......... _ .... • 1 ... ..... ;.

. . ... .. r f- I .. -..... _ .. _- ~ ........ - - .. _ ..... '._ ......... , .... ,. '. -; ...... : ...

i e determined to be UnclassHied , awed ClIi8f, ID»,.S I. EO 13526, SectkHrj1.5

;; :SEP 30 2014 .

LaMs •• rl ..... t·. cornet. I Iaa ..... ,rut toter •• t to tid. offic., be.UII

ta tIr. '01' natal ' ••• , .ad Lout. JOImIOO' ••• " kfor. 8IIAI'I lOt •• te.U ....

ta the hot.1 to '.ri •• we bad • hall of • tiM cooductiq oonal .4III1 .... tI'.tt ....

.... t ......... 1' ·t'h. tal.phooe. I c_ up with thl tu. thlt thb ... 11 _ ....

thlt _ bad to hi ..... il'lct contect, .ad I r.COMe ..... thlt thi. Uttl. offtce

..... tabU .... rt,hc her ••• ad thee then be • 1 ••••• 11ft. _tw.o hen ad

1IAtI. It'. at111 wont ...

IICloffl 1Iav f.r back dOl. tht. offic. ,ot W.'n .peakt. DOW .bout the su.n

Lt.boa Office la the .. ateaon.

La1!!SMI' I Va, baclt to 1949-50.

",yoff. 'l'hi. he •• 1 ... hbtory ia it •• lf.

La1!!tzer: Y ••• 11'.

IIItloftl 1Iov .bout your re1atiOlllh:lpa with CO •••• t Were,ou oftaa c.lled

back to t •• etf,t

Jemie •• 1'1 Y •• , e".ry ,..1'. I t,.tUled Hfol'l the .... I't .... cOMttte .. oa for­

elan rel.tl0 ••• Dd pollc" partlcul.rly with 1'."l'd to Cha .. lltary .1d proara ••

.. tloff I Did you fiael eolllr ... rath.r .,.,.thetic Coward eh. IATO pl'obl .. ,

"'1t&l1' 1 I found 11' •• t tater •• t ta a poct _11, of the people in eo ... I' ••••

Ira oth.r 'WOrds, we bad peopl. lD eoDlI'.'. that took ar .. t illt.t.et, othera aot

.0 aucb intere.t. but we trt •• to keep In touch vieh tb .. , particularly with

Mr. Vl1l80ll, aact the chainell of • coupl. of the .Ultary e..mtt ••••

latloff I We. the thrult of the tnt.r •• t of eo ... re.. larl.l, on the llllt tar, aiel

prolra • .ore thall Oil other •• pect. of IATO'

1.5

.. DECLASSIFIED IN PART Alritr:,·EC)..13528 . ,.,};r;; Ch, , Records & DeCI,,"'iv, WH' Da : SEP 30 20t4 .

..... 1. .. ••• 'fI"lMd.IJ ... ,. PO ..... ad .... '''' •• '0lIl .. ,.,-.

l1_to ... tt. foue. 'a Bul'o,. WI. up f •• tel', .... t tM"t" B •••

eal'l'l .. 'Gowueboll I ....

IIllIU' Bow __ e ,he •• tl .... U'IOMId,.,.,._ ,"'Ml'OOMaaeUt I p,_r ,Ita, fOIl .. n '.,nca .... ' ,oucltwttb tbe CcNaDU.

JaiUU' 10, •. ot too _h"'~ th, CouIacl1 ... t X· ..... tlllt,ou .... tl ..

It. M .... I .. latttud ... elo ... t encaet w.ldt die ...... tal1' Oneral. I

, ....... , tid. w ... ' ..... 1' 'aporteo,.

....... .. 10- '''1' ft.d that .-1 .... fOUl' ,..1.0.' ... u.. ,ot lata

...rl,.t"_ the allied Ntt Did ,be two '.1'" ... ,." ",."1 ... ' \,' " 1.'''1'1 lot 1"", •• 11" ••• 1bat at ao, tile 01.'. I u.e the .... '1 •• f

"f'~jt. ... _a .... 1'.1 ..... '. Who .... lItet ........ t., fIn:b, .... J va. ;~),~,:,.:"~ .. ~",/~':.'V, ""::""'~" ' , , '

;:":' ,.,:;~~~r,~~:',.Wf··Of' .~. AtIJ7 ......... ,.f of .taff. I .. latal ... cl .. e coatact

:';,~.J:.ffl, ..... ,f.r ,be r ... ontbae .... I ""lIlparta., fi,ure tbare aad

';'!:"3<·'?~\·~j"t.O"'.U ..... , to hil' up t .. tu .. Wh '01'01' • . ,., .:,..... ,L4tt'.coacentl'l" • Itt tie btt aOW 01.*1'0 "l'cte.d ... t .. JOU" teaure.

'i:' ~,' ':~:;,': :,/" ::::':"',:1.:'" ',~, " '/"".t"J,J~f".t.i"' • • 1 .to .ta ,....e ... 4.' •• t ._"r_t.""t .. Jour tellUl'e'

._II,lcrlt..,. w •••• of thll108t 'tlftcult of.ll. the .... I'.l.t ... t..,

........ I __ t.U.tlo ... aad_tor. 1 let. thl' ....... ' .... Chat .. n of the

Jolllt"c.t.',ofStaU, 1 •• eOD. ... f.llCIdtbat,.~.'~'tllli ...... etl'atear- I ":"\:"

JS 3.3(b)( (0 ) 16

OSD 3.3(b)(5)

DILASSlflED IN PART A .. ority: EO 13626:\( C . f, Records & Decl_ DIY, WHI D : SfP 3 0 2014 .

a talk atrat..,. atllce we' .. lottea. off 011. tM e.bject. You •••

U. _jo" probl_ til .. to atratqy, I take tt, tllat tbe 'OII1Daa.t thnet ... oa.

••• t .. reta.UaUoll _11 10U .... tllto the poet. .... aa., clla.e occur til tbe

atra'", while ,ou. were 1ACIUl' _'SIll:- '." wec ....... over to a flnt.la ..... ,.. .... 1 ella .... it ta. tbe !.

lUt: ,.. ....

!!UJ,tiC* to you 1' .. 13. 1"1'. ~ tlltba lfAfO.trat:tattc ,law .. ' "'1:... tbe

.. ,.."., .. ,,.. ... ~t:t It'JQU,ta, ... ,tt."'DI. t •••• bUtt

Hatldf: When eto you ptllpotllt tbe ablft ta. tbe pluntlll towaret fl.xlble " •• pouel

_,tilt. It •• all 'urilla ay tt. •• "c ••• e _a. I.e JCS Chat,.a, .,. felt

tb18 w. tbe a.,,1.8bl •• crateu.

IttleC': 1 tbtok thet tn _.t of the wdttllIoa 14'1'0 the ,.at 1967 ....... 11'

819a... Doe. that eOQDd about rtabt?

JIII9!!H1'1 '67 t '68, ,. ••

MI$lst( • What .... ,our attt_. towar. tbe buU'.p aact ... of #uclaI' .apou'

.... 1. ,011 f •• labo.t that part of It, bot" .n8t.pc a. tacticaU

17

.' .

', ... ~ __ "".!!."'-"_'-' ___ ,,"_._.: •. , ' .. ' ..... _ ~ .. "'_ .. t_ .. ",. ",. ",," • ___ ... I._.h .............. ,., .. \.._ ....... ~;;,,~ .................... ~ ............... ~ ..

Pace determined to be Uaclassilled Rettew. Chief, ROD, illS lAW EO 13528, SectIon1.5 Dale: SEP 30 2814

""I.el'l 1 thou,ht it .- atl'.M1, taPOl'taIIt. .1'.' .•. 1'. I h.ch .c .. co wh.a 1 va. the Ara1 Depta" Chl.f of Ib.ft of 'laa. '-4 .... uch. !he aacl_1'

wea,.. veT. co.1 .. a10aa ... " "I'e cha .. t .. ClUI' plau to ... ., thea tatear.ted.

'!'be que.t101l of the utt11c.t1oa of DUd •• T "e.pou W. "I', btab oa the prior1 t1

li.t to be _1" that w be" _t w WI" do1 .... '1" the, "1'. Iocate4, ....

clio •• clTe •• taaee ... ad.r whteb .. f.lt tbat , ...... of aRl •• T "'poD' .. 14

be ,uUfled •

• ,loff. Bow.bout JOUr .tUtu4a towar4 ... cl .. r Wr ......... atiODll "'.uef

LtJIplt •• r: We "re ."olutel, eOll'9:me.4 tbat we 4tela't lan. til. wb.Tew1tbal

to put up aa effeet've collY.atloul .f.u., 4ue to til. taba1aaee of fore •••

.. tloff. Tbea eoa ••• tto.,l fore •• ba4 to .. butlt up?

LeaD" •• rl ror .ts ancl • half ,...1" 1 W. lupr ... C __ aCHI.r :m Burope _ 1

1' .. 11.4 that bnloa tbe .abtault, of the ••• of INel.ar weapoa. ".. the thl ..

that pve .. the 4at.rnat tbat we .. ecIe4. 80 chi. Ie • are.t 4".ppotatalat I

..... t..... ..,. when clvUua people, .a4 1 cloa t t bow of ., .tlitar, OIl",

.. , that the _cl •• r ... poa 11 .... el.... It ha. provU.cI ... 34-35, '''I'' 110" of

proteetton la Burope with Imaller eoav.ntt ... l force. t"'D tbe poteatt.l .... ,

ba ••

.. tloff: Tllea yoU .tin f.el that the .. e of tile .n.taaie .. t.rreat 11 v.ry

1aportaatt

!deBlta.r, '1'bat'. ript •

.. t10ff: Dlcl ,OU Heount.r .", cliff.r.ae •• , .ttll .pu.klna about .crataa, lrt

HAlO, ia the Val ted St.t •• ' outlook v.r .... that of the Allie. 1. prob~ of

atratel"!

18

............ + .1 ,I .....

"., deter.lIIi,*, to. be QaoIasslfled .... ed Cllief, ROD' III' , IAI:EO 13528, _ 3.1 DaI: SEP 30 2014

"',te" We ..... ll UDda of bacttODI tl' ..... tted to ... J ....... 1'.

Genaa ..... ter of .. , .... who ...... 1), .,pot.ted. 1he ftl'.t tht", tut ..

wated, _a 'be "t.tted 1llAP1. va. to ... the DUCl .. 1' ,tau tbat 1IOUld iavol ...

c.rtal. pal't. of Ce""IIJ. 1bat va. htl tatel'll.t ia it. We hael r.'n ... tatt ....

fl'Oll the ".ri.... oouatl'1a., aad tlae Val teel State. oooa.1oull,.....,01' ..... pl ••

0lIl' n'I' •••• tatl". oa the Coaotl __ o would .. very f .. rful of the ... of

_clair .. apo... lut the" .tapl" ooulcla't 81'otd the ooacl".1Oft that .. dida't

have the ooaftDUoaal foroe. too .to, a ""01' Sovi.t attack. It ... the .-tptt)'

of the maola.r ... po .......... ld .. UM tt or DOt-that .... .. the detarre.o., i •

., opt.loa, that hal axt.ted for 3' 1Mrl.

ltt1off, HeN 010.ely dlel JOU WOft With the hontary of Def.AH a_ tM Chat ... a

of tile Jotut Qat.f. iD •• tU.. the aeloptlon f.D .'1'0 of the flatbla n.pctI\Ie

etrlte.,." Wera they helpful ia thla r .. arel' Diel tbay aive a.., puh iu tlala

ellr.odoaf

J.dEser: , hople hera f.lt the ... way that 1 eltel wllea I wnt over then.

!he obaDleo"er dtda't tate plac. _ttl 1968, .fter tie mach ethelr... I ...

• t the Hilt cary eo.t ttae .eU.. ta Oalo, aftar tba J'rtnlch bael eledeleel to

v1thclrl., lad the _.101' Icttoa that it took •• to fto_ad to the Counef.1 the

adoptf.oa of a tactical flex1bl. r •• ponle. 1'bat WI. the .atf.DI ia about Septeaber.

aad In Deoaber, a. 1 reoall, the reoOllPlla_ti01l Wli Idopteel, by the Defe.e Id.a­

i.ten beeau.. then VI. DO one oPpoled to It. De Caulle hid Wi thdr ....

Matloff: So that there WlS DO .. rtous oppoIIU .. wlthlD RA'!'Of

LeanUzer. 80.

Myoff: Bow .bout tbe i_pact OD MTO pla .. l .. ., 1 _p .. there .It ha"e beea

• lot of .etlvlty 801 .. on If tel' the adoption of the n ••• tr.teIY.

19

~ ....... _ I. ....... >l .... __ •• ~ .. ~ ... '" ~>,.-~ ............... __ ••• _ ......... ~I

... PMldeterRliMd • .be Unclassified Ruined Cbief, ROO, was tAW EO 13528, SectIon3!5 Date: SEP 30 2014

_n"... .. ... tte .. of f.ct, not. aucll .. JOUta Chi_, "ca ... ,veo with

ebe .... i". .. ,taUatlon .n,t •• " .0 "0, .ttitud •• va ... ll1Cllnlna tow. I'd a

flex1bl. l'II.ponea that thina' ve ... -v1na ill that dir.ction.

"'Ioff. IIowabout the ,ropo •• la for ·th. HLr and t",'" 1 "11, •• thoa. CDe

up clurlaa ,ou .. pe .. lodt

L!!!'Htll.r. 1ILf--IIu1t1lat.ral fo .. ca, , •••

!faUlff. What.':JOUr attltucla toward the ta.r ancl the ADt low .... U.Uc

were th,.e propo.,l., ta ,0.1' optatoat

ett .... : ., vel" propo •• d b1 people that thou,ht fMt the CODe.pt. would

work, fo .. tn.tence. that ,0. wovid pvt at •• Ue. on 'hipe, aad ao on, bvt When

,. thovaht the who1. thtua out, it •• DOt f.aaib1e. Tllen there ". the 14e.

that we weI" 101na to have ta.r, _ltllat .... 1 force, on ..... ri.... 'l'bat f.ll

flat 011 It. fac. Daeclt't.l,. "caua. the tel .. of bavtaa • Pol.ria cr.". for

... ple. ud •• p of O .... b. Turb. Britt.h •• Dd .... rica ... 11vi .. toa.th ... ad

1M) fo .. th, in the kind of an .vlrODlltmt of 60 ",. io the oc"o, •• "po •• tb1 ••

"'loffl 'lb1a .. s.a .ffo .. t, I I.ther, b, tho.e Who ve ... p .. oposi. the,e two

plan. to cut the '1U .. Ope.OI 1D on the DUcl .... weapon .. ,.

Le.nlt .... ' 'lb.t i. ab.olutely corr.ct.

Matloff. 1 take it 1D YOllr vle. the, weI" DOt re.li.ttc propo •• la"

1.eImitaer: Y.I. I would •• y that you're rilbt on that. I felt th.t they ".re

DOt re.U .• tic.

Matloffl 1 ahould bay. put lt «bi •• y--vb, did they f.l1 of adoption!

J.eal t .... , lecau.e of tbe per.oane1 p .. ob1... In.olved-food. pi,. clothl.,

tr.lni •• backlround. We ft0811, ca •• al'ound-I did, before I lot over to

20

18 dttel1lllnedto ~classified . .wed Chief. RDD, WItS I EO 13528, SectIon 15 Dale: SEP 30 2014

.... -tbat 7OU''ft lot to"'ft att. 0' cel'tal. _tllUllde •• I t'blat I .. e

COIlylaced .f it la 10 ....... 1" ..... d • diftel ... tltatw. _1'1 .... _t ..

... d .ttao ... d athlopl ••• ad Col_bla •• , .,. _ttaU_ .1 .. , 01' '" ......... tal

.1... I.taanted alt. I. ,be coaduct of IdUta.., .,. ... tt ... wnld IIOt wl'k.

X'll 10 back co the Nat-.. of WII, ...... I •• CORftacad of t"'a, W, 111 .,.

talk .t t ... a ........ 1' ...... , .t Weat h'.t, I cited the d.ole:l.OI1 of C. ... 1'.1

1:I. ... howel' tllat ,OU ldah' ....... :1.."11"'" etaff, .. , 1._ .... teet 101'ee. of

.... 1'1 ... _tl .... 1Ut ••• t the 101MI' 1 __ 18 wa llll •• el"" •• eel •• » •• ad

'.ff.cd .. .

IfIItloff« 80 10U wel'e .ppo.ed, t..... to the ILl' lad the AlP,

Ia!IU!1' I 1' •• , ••• ooacept. but they put the ..., pd_I'U, I .... 11 .. v.l.tb

the 111 .. 11 •• aad 101.1, fol' the Ide. t ... t 'OU jutt •• ti ..... 'Jhe, wated to

1:1. .. the aul'O,... •• f •• lI .. that the, wen pa ... tiolpatt .. :I.. the coaduct of '1\7

DUel .. 1' opel'atl ... that .. W •

.. tloft: 'l'b.e ANr, whlch would .... to be • pale eUftl' of the otbel' plaa.

abo. I tab lt .. a _NaUatid

lets.er: 1b1l it 1'1,ht •

.. tloff. What ... the r.lationshlp betwee .. atra_10 p1emd. ... aad al.'lll ooatrol'l

Old RAm .et t.to 1:h18 al'e, wh11e you _1'8 SAClUIJ

t.eaalt.erl Up uat11 the t .... I left SlAPE 'a 19" there wer. re.ll,. aot aay very

eedoul dllcusltoal about a1.'ll8 control. It ... att .. t11 the ..,.kJa'lfik. •• tl ....

that tbe,. .d. the d.ct.lon ebout autual balaaced forc. reductioa. IIBft. Tbat

.a. the flr.t ca •• of aa,. .erl,,1 .. e,ottatloD8 for reductloa of forc... 1

th11lk that oae of the ... t i_porta .. t factor. ta tbb nlard 18 tbat there ...

• uch a 8re,t I.bal,ac. betweea our force. aad tho .. of the Yar.a •• act.

21

, . ,..deteraiDedtG b."UUlasslfied R.ewed Chief, RDD, WIt lAW EO 13528, SectIon U

. Date: SEP 3 0 2014

"SI2ff, Dl'''' ,.t ts OIl thot •• 1 •••• 1 ... t al11

... ,~ ., ..

_" ..... 110, aot ... ..., .. h, .Ill, to polat ou.t that tf then ..... a., ..... uc­

ti.ae, we coul'.'t _kAt c_,. ...... I ...... uctio. OD hth .,.... Otham •••

would ju.t coatt .. , a. _ke won., the .... la •••

IISl.f" ftat tha "lau. f ....... the Wa ...... Pact. pa ... tlcularl' ,. tlae c .......

ttoaal .t •• ,

!l!!fta .... , !bat'_ c ........ ct.

1Iftl"f. Bow ..... t t. tha earl, pa ... t.f JOU'" t ......... 1. JOU •• t ...... t. OIl

tile ".c ... tou 0Ye ... the lttd.te' te.t ..... t ..... t, 1" 196"

ette"" 110, 1 .... auffict.llt aowl .... allout the 1AlC1 ..... wapoa p .... bl ...

• Dd 1 WI. hearttl, ta fa.., .... f the te.t .... treaty. !he .. c .... ta..., "-Stat.

ca.a tHoush 811APB .a hta _, back to' the Stete., .Dd 'he •• t., ·You bow.

0. ....... 1. JOU'll ... "'1'1 tat ...... ted to' bow thlt .fte ... he .taud the te.t "D t ..... ty IhnaeJachev a.t up .Dd walked .... ouDd thl ta .. l. _b11l8 hi. ha., a •

•• t., 'low lat', t ...... ~tt ..... f .... , .... t.heYl.ff ..... 018-.0.,'." IItloffl !bat', a aGOd .t.ry. We MuclOMd leykjay1k, _u thl. HI ... up a

"....., tapo ... taae .... po ... t, the Barael leport. thet took plac ...... 1 .. ,ou ... teaur ...

SACIUI. Do you ......... 1' thatf Dtd ,ou haft .'" taput to Itt 11118._. f.llowp

.a the .... po ... t .f the thr •• wi., _n backla the 'So.. law we' .... 'a 1967, ""pt

.. ck la the al.d1 •• f ,.ur t,Qur.. .ad tU. prO' ••• I»out 'uU:a, wi th the

outdd. wo ... ld caae up ... ta: wh.t 'RATO', po,itiO'a ahou1d ... oa pro.l ... that

.ri,' outat •• lta a •• a .... pbte '1'" .1' "".t klaa, .f coaau1tatloa about4 taU

place f.D tbe AlU.ace .". .... ucll p .... bl... Did you aet d ..... 1. on tw. ella­

c."loas at alIt

22

· . p. deterJlliJlt!l ~D· D'~~· Unclassified Hili. 8W8d Cllief;H . , . lA' EO 13528, SeoIioD r 5 Date: SEP 30 2014

JaIlS.!1 lot ... .., .. eh, for t .... "'a, .. tlaat thl IIIUta.., pn1tleB ...... 111.-

1Ml, c ....... vith a .. of thl po11tleal pn.,l_ that thl)' _ ... di .... I ...

ItSloff I .. taportaat .1' )'011 ... pr4 ChIt "'portt

1fte1S!!1'1 It wla't "I'J .lp1l1 .. at Irla ., petitt of ft'" aDd frla t1ae .taDd-

polat of IIJ 111 •• 1 •• , a .. i8Dlllatl, aad eapaltlUt,.,. !be ... ', _ ... II)' attn-

tlOD •• '1''' to aDd I dlda't ... tlaat the ...... rt ..... tid ... _tarle11,_

.tloC(1 1)0 '0 .. think thlt ther. w. a., poI,t"" cODIctl. wltll .... t hlp­

PI.' at Ie1kJaYl"'I Di. It lu' to "''',taftk, ... 'Oltar a .ptrit of deteatl'

!fElt .. l': IUt •• the aUltu4e at .. ,It". .. IIt, "".a the 111ft .. I' .... at WI ....

Itwi aa ..... _at to 'tud, the Pl'oltl .. , 1Iut then _I'I .. IIn ... at. nached.

I ... ao Objection to thlt. I didn't thlak that we coal. 10ieU ... bpt ta

IIIDd the 41.parU, of cOPentl ... 1 'ore.1 oa Ntll .1de •• that if • ., edjut­

.at. _1" aolaa to H .... , theJ had to H ..,..l .. t ...... u .. , .. couldn't

II, lt wulc1 dre. '0 _a, dlntiOD' oa the part of thl 1o'l1.t. ead the ....

_HI' of dln.loDl OD our part.

!lS!oU I Wen)'O .. aet_11, at ..,ltja .. I"1

t..Iatt.I1i1 ao, I dl4a't ,0. AI fer ,. 1 bow, ther. vel" .0 _jor _Uta..,

people tb.rl.

HatloU I '!be •• atlon haa '1'1 ••• In the alDde of ._ Rholar. whethlr the

Banel nporc WI oa the road toward the .p1l'1t of d.teat. Whieh e .... la •

Itttl. lec.r.

1.eMttur: 1 •••• It could H .0 con,tru.'. It vel IOIDS In that dlreeUoa.

'lop poll tical polle, •• Hlna _4 ••

1I1l10lfl On the q .... tloa of tbe alU .. proltl_ that aro •• 'uriUS ,our pertod

e. SACIUR, weI" there an, probl •• oval' role. aad _ •• tOD. of the differeat

· ' DECLA .FIED IN PART

~, Rei~~:llle~i~"'~, WHS Da,: SEP 3 0 2014 '

couatrl •• t>"t~~tt ...... t ... r the .U;' ...... 1'. ,..lU. tb.lrval.ht, .ad

tb.l, ....

All 1 could do w. to polat out to ... of the polttte.l

luthorltl •• --and w. us.4 to ha~ tho ••••• tlaB. at l ••• t once • ,ear--to iDdicat.

what we thousht • eountr,. .hould..,. wUlt .. to c_it, V. _re ".uall, 00 the

•• ort .ld ••

.. SitUs".... t'ber.' .. ,tapol'taat ..... iD .-1 •• _ ....... 00. _CIa ... ttoaal

1 .... 1 _1-atlM perloO of JOur •• u .. ·.a' c ...... 11l wbat the fuaetlou of

partioulal' . .atl'1e. tada. alllauee *ould be,

*,,'DlC' Yea, va \\ad '1'01> __ tMt .. were 41ac.al... 1 tblat t .... t we did

.... : .... .,ad lit .... ""Itt, 1004 ...... t., JIIIn1culal'l,. 00 Mttahecalt 0>." ,

... i,.iI'41f •••• ·:·>~':.'t.< ,~r·<,:.'. '."', : \ • ':;_. ·IOW· about the budaett .,,..,. att draeta oa the I*Ob1e •• of .. tU.

~l*,:"'en' """'\' t,

f'" ,

~1JUt'on. _I'I .. d. OIl the part of· tDdf.vtd_l utlo.l.

Mlllelf. BfA the 8eCntar, of Def ...... t taGD ....... ttoa of .,,1.1118 oa

1'01', a .. a",lou .Dd forca ,t_eeur., 1ft dt~ •• loa1 WU.,ou' 00 what 1'01e

41ffer.ftt eouatrl., could ,1&,. po.at_l,fy_,OU~.cal1 •• tber ., of tho •• , ' ';{'.

que.tloa. cae. up'

Idal S"!' , Rot .. rt'cUlad1.b1.tad,y,,, .. t.~~~· '.1\111 ',.11 •• 're .. llel ..

about the a.bjact here. _.1'1 alwa,. UftI.~i"~.~t.·t. 40 eel'tain ttd .... With

, , DIiOLA~SlFf£I)JNPARt",; AVIIOflty: £0 13528 ~. ",

D~let' I, RICpordO' & Decl. Div. WHS a e: SI: 3t 2814

JagltHJI '!'be, .cl' .... d blood, .unal'. ., .. re the 'ODeS that wr8 pr ••• url88

to nduce the .taff. 1 bad the ,robl... 11\ this particulal' proc ••• , whlcb 8_

about 1967 I'll just .. , a word

about tbi.. One da, I eAle laco a, offle •• ftel' the l'eductloa aotiflcatlon sot

out to the DIltion, .nd

our 8enior officer. in What tbe, vrite.- It ju.t .0 happened that 1 had been In

tbe SHAPE office on one of my visits When President li •• nbower was tbe SACIUR,

25

· . Pale determiliedto be Unclassified lfiiiMd Chief. ROD, WHS lAW EO 13528, SeotIoDI.5 Date: SEP 3 0 2014 .

... the ••• thl .. bad .. ,pa.... 'lb. kttt.Ja It •• terof Da'nc •• terte ........

t ...... Ii ......... r OtIt 'or DOt .. ft ••• ' ..... 0 wtte •• 1.tte .... , or .... .

• tateaeat to _u, olttatet .... "rOYal 0' the .............. 1'. c.ural It ..... ....

Ht., "'tl • DOt t1ae wa, tltt ............ tao wa.. Oa. _ttnal proltl. _

do DOt tab tile ........... lbllttJ. We pu ... tat fOIl an .,potatt .. aa1f-nU •• t

Glftur .... t .. t t .. , cu be •• ,.. .... poD to .... Ie tIl_alv •• cornett" ....

ta.t 1f theJ cae't, 1ft Mft to .... t .... to

If!Sl9'' I 1 .... 1' lf 1 caa diract ,..1' .etaU •• to tile ,,"oltl. of the tJanat

ta.t .1'0 f ... "1"" t .. 7"" tMt ,... _re 1ACIUl. Dl. 10U .. _tal' • .,

d1ffanDOa. t. the pane,tlo. of tlte th ...... t be __ the VD.tta4 State ... the OM

_., ad the .111 •• OD tIta Gtud Di •• ll.t4aa ·100k at the 80ftat tbrut t.

the ... we,t

Jeait.a .... : 1 ca.'t 1' ....... 1' a., .padftc .Ulan'Oc .. , ace,t 'a atDOr "talla,

... c .... _ ....... wodtlaa O'O the ,l'Oltl ..... arM, of peopla, o. a polttical

leftl .Dd • 1IUtta." l.ftl. 1 '0.' t I'.call a.,. •• rt .•• '1ffanaca. •• to

..... t the t'brut •••

IICloff, 1ft teml, po •• 'ltl" of the Genau, "0 ....... ft." .. ch coac.ned with

t1aetl' fl'o.t, 80 010 .. to the "1"'1" of the laat ...... l1oc, perhe,. 100Uia .t the

probl_ t'O a 1101" parochtal wey; wher ... the VAtted State ..... fact .. the 110 ... 1

thr.at, aD' .. 91 .. tbe n,poD.Iblllty for tbe D1ICl .. r 'etel'nDt, 100U .. at tile

thl' •• t In a ..... t br .... 1' we,. Di. ,OU eDcounter aDY of that. for ... ,1 • .,

'LeIIal t •• r I 1 .DOount ..... · that partlcul.r t,,. of pro1t1_ t. coaaectloa vi th

the I.aeral a,proach of M"1'O. It .a. ". •• f .... a. far fonard a ..... Iltle.

'Dlat •• tile .tataMat that lot a lle11 of • lot of .1acu.atoa. TIl. Gena ••

26

----_. ---

• I

.DECLASSIfIED

ItbDritJ{ EO'1 ief, Records" . te:SEP 30 20J4'

"1" "1',·I.,i.t'o' tNt .. tr, to "al' our ,"-... • ",.L.U ..... ot

,ft .ff.ctl ..... f •••• a. faT toNll'4 a. poI.t. .. "'_ ~f;~ ••. ~,".,te4 ltat.. or Cpa •• "If co __ "". tUt4140' t uu • t.JJ .,·.·I.ot ·01' 41ff,r­

.~ce. no.pl: "1', tlttltr 'forc .... ~ 1"'01 .... lut", at-.,. W .1 ___

......... tber It ... in .,.. .. ,. or ... _rt_"D ........... , ..... far

fo ... " •• poea1bl •• 1 'OD't tb",,, 10U _14 aape _lou"" .. f., ...

ae farforwu4 .. po ••• l.t lilt,.' re d,lat a_I: th. "01: atiat ..

Ge_'" "1" _.t .... 1' i,,"I ... ,I. tbl. ,.rtlcuJAr •• ,.ct.

III»tIII 11ft.'. aaoOlt po1"t tD .t.. ...tf.oa ... t "'e .... pro\tea.

wltbl"'jlAtG a ... "'1" the .. jot' •• 0 ..... ,.rtur. 'Itte..... Bow.Id,.

... Ch. role. for • ..,Ie. ;of Irlta"" low 41' ,.. .,1." Ita po.1UOD .......

. ''':l~' •• 'tI. 'ffol'~to_l' Oft tolte _, ...... , det.rrnt real ...

Ift"'., .. 1t ••• l .... t OIl 110141 .. 011 to the al:_tc ...... lo ..... c'l

5::U.-'.' ,jt.~·t .. ..i''''tb Il'it:al1l, It •• _ell ,1: .... too. the 'reach "i'¢i~".J:>.: ','. '\.?,~~ .,'" -\

'w.~:.icao... , .......... o.lJe Jilt .,. jA' "plat. •• t ta ... to ,~,) >/' (i' ',,:, , " '\' r, '-::, ", ' "

,"''f~ ... " ..... -".,.c.1.1 4.'t "lte., _t a .. tloD CIa ... flr.t

i{.j~ •• t'~M ......... worl4wt.l:ltout ... __ at_Ie_b."' n.t·. ,·,','e' "'", '

, ' , ,

to .... ;.,',.., .. rll., .-ttl0... V, .... d •• ttitl.,".''Dt Cbl.ef8of

aso 3.3(b)(6) 27

· . WSIFIED IN PART 13628 lIJiI

.~II'It. It Decl. DIV, WHS SiP 30. 2014 I

.. worked _ that. I'l,bt up to tb. tt._ .... I

•• Cbatna •••• d we 3.et eoul4.'t ,et our •• tbRIUee bare to aane to tbet.

Matloff: The admlnllt~.tloa t.~n.d tbia down?

Leu.ltaer: Yel. '!'bla NUada _ of eo_thiDl 81 •• that flta iato tbb. I .aed

to 10 to tbe BATO aeetlnaa and talk to tbe allitery repr.aentattvea.

decided that we bad to do better In briDling In our allies on nuclear .attera.

28

- ........ ,.~. - -_ .... _ ... _+, ... _. ~ •. -* .... ., ...

Pa,etdet'rmill8d to be Upc.assifiod RtJiewed Chief, ROD, WHS I. EO 13528, S,etiOlf'.5 qate:SEP 30 2014

It' •• ow dealt wUh ., at tM Def .... ,laaat., 1 ... 1. I Ht the JoI.t Cbl.f. to

work o. a ,..ojeot .f prepal"" • cwo-boul', • four-houl', ad a .1 ..... 1' .I.fl., •

• wo ..... d for OYer. ,"1' oa It, to procI •• _01 .. 1' Ialonatton for our .UI ••

at the to, 1.".1 01' down to 1 ... 1' 1 .... 1 d.tail. It toot a ,...1' to .. t that

cl .. NCI fol' pna&lltaUoa to a.,... I. 11'1'0 Who .Iud tt.

l"loff. ftl. il J.. the _rica. cil'cl •• !

\!!dtgl'l fbl'ouab the _I'icaa ... eoy thet c_tl'Oli the 1'.1 •••• of clee.ifled

iafonetton. .. wol''''d '01' OftI' • ,.al' oa that, ..... ftully 80t ,p'l'o ... I.

Th.n" took an .tl',l ...... pat. Cl'ft .boal'd with bdeft .. __ I ... the,

travel" al'oad. We 4id a lot of 'brian .. a" .... the lock __ luI' _ter-

tal, INt it ... ntt wttl _oh l.tal'; It 1' ..... _. latal' OIl 1Ir. __ 1', .a.

thie .1lcI 1' .. 11. ... that .. "I' .. 't doi .. -ouab ... CMI .WI' to 8IIAPI ... da, •

• ad he cue trlth .a id •• cbat ........ 801 .. to fol'll • DUel .. 1' c __ ttae at the

,.Utical 1 .... 1. 1 ..... d, "What'l'e J'OU 801na to edl it'" ... xpl.I .. d that

of the 15 uti ... in Mm ... 'd he .. , the flw ",i_tpal uti .. , .1lcI thea .. '41

I'ot.te the _lIe .. ut:l.oa, thl'ouab :l.t. Be Mtd, "We'r. 80:1. .. to call it the

Balact ec.attta.... 1 I'a'''''ad. "Gau, I tW.le. thet', • lou.y .... fo .. :l.t."

Be •• k:l. .. of .ba"'a, aDd be •• ld, "What" W0D8 with the uaa ·Bal.ct eo.atttae·'"

1 1'.,11ed, -Look, you' ... talk:1. .. to •• ol'pnl .. t101l of 15 utto ••• It'. loinl

to be ,,,y to .elect ft ... natiOlll on the o ... itt.e, 'but U', 801 .. to be dam

hard to •• lect ten of t .... off. - So, he .e. t t, aad he went Nele. to tbe U.S. The

.. xt t1_ I .a. h1_, 1 ,.td. "We 'ft lot • .... for YOUI' coam. tt.e. - The, "1" nill wol'kf .. on tbia thi .... and be •• ked. "Whet ia tt'- I aa1d. -'!'be Jfc .... r.

CoIIalttee. - Be wat .tr.tlht up thl'ovab the Oftt'ba.d aac1 did not u'ke ft. But

that eOllll1ttee has develope<! into the »UClaI' Plans Croap and 18 in effect tod.y.

29

, . ,,..\;._ ..... ___ .•..••• ~~ _'J. ,'J. _ : '_

.AHer· . de. tetVliDed to be lhlclassified liieWed Chief, ROO, lilt. f. EO 13528, Section":5 Dlte: SEP 30 2014 •

"'Sloff. You -, recall .. e of the wrlU .... of Ala.tab aucbaD. 1 doD't bov

It , .. ever Mt up wlth hi.. Be.e a lritbb writer. "er, wcb 11lvol".d in

tbe found 1 .. of the IDter .. ti01ll1 StrateBle Studl •• ID1tltute in London. I.

wrote tbat tile Irttteb ..... w. a1lMd at VaebtDltOD, end that the "r.ncb bo ...

wa at ... at 'both VllhlDlton IIDd Lond01l. In order to hlft • tapact on the

Ua1ted State.. Vould ,ou BO aloDS With thatt

Lppltnr: 10.

"Sloff. Be vas wrltlD1 quite .. d.ouel" that thle ... thelr _, of llaurl •

. theM.l".e that theIr advtce would be heard .. , the _ricaa power. lut you

woulda't follow that DOtloD'

s.al t •• r e 10.

",tlpffe On the "reach aide. hov dId you react __ JOU .v that ttle 'rench

were ..vins to ou.t the headquarter a aDd the alUed ba ••• ,

'11!!ltHr. Ve didn't .. ". lID, wamiDl about it. Va dldn't detect that they

were .. "lnstoward that. Ito one dld lD the area wh,re I wa. located, aDd 1 vaa

10 'arla.

Hatloff: It ca .. II a aurprl."

LeDlner: COaplete _rprl... '!'bat'a the oal,. .,. I ClD _pr ... It. 'Iller.

vaa DO lndlcetlOD. whatao."er, that caae to UI at SBA.PB. There ve vera at

'arb. lD tha political arena, aDd there va. DOthlDl in the __ ic,Uonl

that l.pUed that De Caul Ie wal leaniDI thil _,., uatll at the end of 'e"ruary,

1 think it WII. _ea he ude the announce .. t. 111110.

Hacloffl Bow would ,ou account for that podtiont You have alre .. ,. offered a

fev reaaonl. .aUonall.-. undou"tedl,. _thlDl to do vith bt. "Dlo"er fro.

World Val' 11 .,at 'eeUnal about the coalition'

30

.... ' .... --."' ........... "....". ............. -.~""'.,. ,-

, .

kElt!!!' I to 10 k. to 'foil Gate., _. he •• leefttll.., of .. f.... llaa'

.tte.'ed with ..... Gate. the IrAto •• u .. t. Pen. t • ...... 1' 1,.. ••• h •• _

to o.,l.t. bttt'l'l, that 0.. De Gaulle ... .... 1' hepPJ with the ........... t.

that the mach offtcel', he. t. the IA'IO .tr:uctun. Ie lOt t.to. _11 of .e

.I' ..... t. aot OD1,1d.th 81 •• De Gau11a-1 .... 't t_l_ too ...... tut ......

INt With the adef of ltaff of the '1". fo .... , •• othel". '!bat _. cOIdas

fl'OII 0. •• De Gaulle. I .1 .. ,. tl'ted to ... f.t J'oa Gate. t ....... 1'1 .. hla, .ad

.,. ...... 1' to tid. ,.l'tlcu1.r pl.tat ... thl11 .. 1. the C-1lCIe1' 1. Qal,f of

the A1U •• 'ORe. ea.tn1 aul'opat A mac.... ..t fone. will he ha ..... _1'

c ... llClt Cau4la., Bd.tllh, _1'1 •• , Gana., Dal.b-tha 1I1' ... t COIlee.tl'.tl .. ,

the snattl.t ftel. c_ad ••• l .... t 1. the .1U.u ...... f C08I'.e, aot IACIUI..

ltut _ .. 111. Ita t. c .... d of atlU • .., oper.tl ... 1. entr.l luro,.. !'bel'e

.... 't •• , "I" lapol'ta.t c .... d po.lUOD. ht It ""'1' .aU.fle' 0. •• Ie

Gaull,.

IItloff, Va, there • .,thl ... ,.dflcall, that had OCCUI'M, do JOu thiak. that

_da hla take the .... uh 08t of 'the atUta.., ,.I't of the elllaacat

........ ".1'1 It ... tie i'e. that the Ionet Un!_ •• Dot 801 .. to .Jce • .,

tr08hle for aD,hod, •

.. tloff: A .iff,r.at "I'ceptlo. of the thl'a.tt "I'hap •• cha .. , ta the paroeptloa'

LeIm!t!!I" !bat'a oOl'l'eot. And one polDt I fOl'80t ltefor.. .a, of ., coli .........

c1yUln aDd atlttal'J, felt chat o.D. De 0111111 tboulht that he oould Ita the

hoDe.t hl'oJceI' betweea ... t aad ... t aa' he lutrumaatal :ta hrla8:f. ... the two of

thea teaether, witbout the ae." for an aUl.ue. As •• e.ual to that, Itae.

Cea. De Gaulle' •• lde, w'hea he .. nt to hla retlr .. at h ... ta the aut of

31

. ,

. . ,. I l'

PI. 8.,.Jletermlqed telba. U"classlfled R' awed CItMf, ROD; Wilt. II EO 13528, SectIM 3.1 t. Date: SEP 302014,1

.... ' ., .•..

11: .... ..... CoW _ Cbac Ga" .... Gaulle f.lc chat way .... he p4lat1 -.

fore •• out, ad ebat "I ... I ... I'D el\l. "",Ttl "to coapl.tel,.lova apert __

the ... 1_ .'Dt l'Dto C.acbo.l ... _I. lal'68. Gaa. Ie Gaulle •• t ... 'ftl')'

I'aptdl" _call, an. pltJalall" after thet. _at ... t. Mawt 1"8.

IIdd" A raacl_tl ... 'elttlo" to c .... t .tor,. low .. " of • loa. w. che

fNlu:h .... rton fl'Oa the 1I111ter, pert of the alUneet

I!I!!!SHrc DIe, ...... _ of the ., po.1tlOB. t. the .tlff ... tM, ..... two

elln.lo ..... o. tb, .... ri •• frODt, o. the ....... t fle., I. t'b. ce.t.r.

II!Slo(11 What about the lop.tlu of the aUlne.t

!eDietE' Ye.. W .... el ."nt OYer •• UlIolI dollar. i ... ta.11.1d. .. our li.

of c ...... caCl •• acr ... Fra .. , and ... wer, lolaa to..... to 'lYe thea up.

!ber ••• DO .. lte.l., DO ~_,.rabl' 11ne of CGIIIllLlllictl ... ,...ibl, aft.r t .... t.

"'Clotl. We ...... talkael about Irlta18, rraaca, a .. Geftlaa),. You _atl .... the

Genrea •• alr. for •• f.a •••• far forward a. ,.,.".1.. low .i. )'011 nect toward

t'be Genaa .... towarel OatpoUtit. toward ,",Uti ... d. ..... witb .a.t luropet 1

.Oll't kDOW If that ... a whU. )'OU WI', .tUI SAClUR. Jlgt certe18l), It)' J970

W111)' Ir ... t va. talkl ... bout bulld1 ... ri ..... a" b.tittltlaa a ,o11c)' of

or1.atatloa toward the ... t •

.... U.!r. Ther. w.a DO 1 .. 1utloa of tbat 'a a .uHtaDtlal .y up .lItU 1

l'ft 1a '69 •

... tloff: .0 f.ar tbat the Genau 1I11bt be 101111 ia botb direettou'

"'Cloff. BurI .. )'OUr teaura, .141 you ... a.., eba .... tn tbe or111 .. 1 lapor­

teae. of tb. central frODt la IATO, v!a-a-vla t'be aorth.rn ad the aouth,r.

32

..... ", l ". ':"'.. • .. "4, •• •• U .' '" .~ .• _. _~ ...

. . I .

~ detemtined ... tebeUlclassified Rrilewed Cbfef, RDO; .$ IA" EO 13528, SectIon II ~. SEP a 0 2014

fla.' • areat tbr .. t that va f .. re' at t:be -Sl •• ", of Che &lUa.c&

w. the ce.trel froat, that the I •• le.e alaht ""a .. atut it. .. tDe wat

an, ohloual)" the Chre.t lie ... aore .t .. r.tf1ecl. Dlel)'ou ..... a faell •• that

perba,. the threet •••• hUtl .. to the 'Ao:rth ••• to the "utht

k!!lt&ara .0, 1 .ver .d ., 111.'... b that .iraction whata ..... r. acl

thare .e.'t aa, .. c ... t.t, or ", .. Iure to bay, thla killd of aa attitude. Ther.

WI IDt lOt.as to ... , aejor trealfer of troopa fro. the caD tel' to tb. IOUthen

froDt, or to the DOrth.ra froat.

"'tlQffe low e'bout -1n& fro. the I.el •• at •• , perhe,. U7i .... to avtflauk t:Jut

&lUaucat

Lt!!!.IS"1' I .1" vaatt ., _, to outfleak lt, elther fro. the aorth, or &_

.. uthera Burope.

"'~l"'c 'l'ba 'nub were RU1 ...... I recell lt, thet til. threet •• eht.fce',

thet the e--.alat. weI" 101.. to tl'J' to outflaak the all1aace thl'OVib Afrlca;

ad that .TO would. fec. 1.tl areateat tbr .. , fro. the lOuth. 'l'bla.. nlht on

the ... la of the Alaerl.a war perlo4.

L!!gltHrc Ro, on. of th. Feet tbr.ats .. 'owa tbrouah A_tria •• Sato Ital"

but thet WI .cUI the c •• trel froat.

"'Sloff: Ia ncaat yean, tber.'s 'be •• ucb coac.ra about th. Klelcl1a lut, the

.enta. Gulf, aa. the oU probl_. aDd the p ... IU. outfla.kl .... lthout aYeD •

dlr.ct .tllter, laY •• loa.

'LnDU.ar& I'. sUll an ar.eat "Yocae, of tr7i .. to do .... thl .. for t:ba 'lura,

to preYe.t the 8ovl.,s fro. a,tacki ... aDd f..olatt .. 1'uru, aDd a.ttl .. the ... tem

Keel1t.r ...... lI1cl.le B •• t, ••• 0 forth. '!'hat' ..... t I thi. 11 a coad'erabl,

threat tocta,.

33

· ............... ...::... .. - .. ~

.. Pa&adetermined.tQ be Unclassified

.' RtWawed Chief. RDD,WjJ' IA.EO 13528, SeetIoIr~,; Date: SEP 3 a 2014'

IItldf.t ...... touched Hfon on the c..obol1"* ... on. ...... n 1'68. low

did SIAPI ~ct to that crl.1.'

_ltl,rl It ruct.d ."rpl,. We l_dtaal, put tnto effect all "'1" conti ....

... , plana, ta Hcnt-llothiaa on the •• face, ...... the, wena't iavad1111

u. .. INt all "I" alert .alNl'" lato effecc in tlae ceaar aDd "'1" r.con­

_i.nace •• tat_ifted. Jut I ,ot GO i_cneti .. e, ao po11tlcal pldace.

IIdoff' lot fro. the Couacllt

ltI!!J.tHr. Ifochtlll.

"CioffI Iodd. .. fro. the AMrlca pn.ldeatt

left!t"J I 110. ft... te a nal eon poiat Wi til M. I took .,.ta. to tell ."1".1

aoa.n .bout· eb ... whea the Po11eb te ... cae up. We had put tato .ffect ... r:r-

tbt_ tHt .. coul4 do lIl11al'n, ............... a •• re .... of a coupl. of

Genaa dt'riat .. , to .0.... tbaa ... y fro. tlIa froDt, l'at we at ... e the 8oviet.

elIe enue. dlat tile, ...... ta to protect Cleohoelovaltta. 80, I call,d up by

phone a a .... 1' of t_.. la tile fil'et place I called back hera, to alk to

Oea. Good,. ... I'. \'bta •• Aup.at Zl, 1968. I .... " the q.aUoa, -Whet doea

the United 8tatea pro .... to do about tWa ...... at tato ea,cboalovakta'- Qea.

Oood.,..ter .aa't then. 10 ... ,la, btnr .a)'thl_ about It. It.a all Ittad

of low-1te, acceptlll1 what the tuaalaaa _re dot..... ADd I thousht. My God, what

are the Chiefa 401a,' The Chi,fs vel" aot dol. aa,tbilll_ Two daya wnt by, aad

I ..... tUIlS critical c __ nta fl'Oll .)' auior _UtaI")' people, aueb e., """at

an .. euppoM" to do'" I aald, -I'. tl'),illl to ,et poUdeal pt_ace. Ia ... e

,ou aot .U your alert .aaur.e and evel')'t1l1 .. :l.n'" ·Yea. Cot thea all. - Oft

the third day, th1l h :l.n Av,u.t, I eat down and wrota a aute to Bro,to (Seeretal:')'

34

... ""'"" .. -~-..... ............ ~ ..

. . ea&adeterntiAtd to be.unclasslfled

··RJYiewed CbiefS::,.HS lAW EO 13528, H'3.5 Date:SEP 3 0 2014

...... al of M'IOJ. polntt .. out that tt ... lOt ... _ 72 taoa ... DOW. that the

Serdat V.ton w. aoft ... tn anel tal .. Oftr CucIao.lo .. 1d... a.eI I bad Mt ...

..., pol1t1cal lutdallCa. aDel 1 watecl 8 .. ,u1c:k1,. 1Iec:a.a tun an ...., tbtaa. t .. t _ could do. lut Iroelo w. In ltal,. B. ~Pllt' w. the _1, ODe '''OUDcI, thera .en't • lIlat'ter la ,18bt. la ... u.t. a"",oDe va, on a-r 1..... l .. ud •

.... t dae bell b the ,n.tdant t"' .. I. about'" Aad ,OU blow _t ....... 1

80t out of ,ro"'l, thie offlca or the Clbatman'. offla! "Wa'ra 801 ... to ,tand

" and .. e what our Iuro,..n allte. dedde to do.· Aad 1 _de the .taU-at to . .,. Chi.f of ltaff .M a cou,laof peo,la In 1lIAPI. "!bat', a hell of a fl_ eaht-

.1ti_ of leacIenht, oa the part of tha vatted State, .ael MTO. 'l'bat'. the

wor.t 1'.e ,een .illCe I' ...... a OftI' h.re.·

lIatloff' Do you f .. l free to .pe.k _ t'be .u'ltject of What ,ou .ee e. Mto',

role tn euch eire_taKe.f .t KA'fO c.a elo whea you pt a chre.t outtlde

of It' aeol ... phlc ..... t

"'Ette .. , We 10 oa .lert fo .. ".rtou. cOlltl .. e., plaa.. We'", ,ot coaU.-

8eac, plan. fo .. alao.t .".rythi.. lut what .... of ., .eator offia .... ee ...... and other., were thtaklna wae to ao .. a diu.loa up to the .. rder and let the

Sovl.ts koo. thet the,' ... DOt 801D1 to COM eoy fu~ther. The II1Uta.., ... ted

to Jeaow 11 cher. va.a't ._thtaa tb.y could do to olf~t tbb d ..... eI ••

llatlof.f: So ,o~ f.lt tbet "tll fl'. tbe all1.d .1de, thl'ouah the CouacU. aad

fl'. the ..... loa. pre.ld.atlal .1e1., thaI" va. DO adequate political aulda.cef

Lallnit&er: 1I000e. Whea the Turb were 80i .. to In,,ade Cyprv.., 1 va. awakened ORe

aoralna J wi tb "I'. lIe_ra and the Prelideat oa ODe ,hone t .M they ao ..... 1' 80t

off thaa 1 ,ot Iroato on the otber. .y all told aee ·You set tbe hell dova there

••

'. ,:- •• '. Jit .... I .•. _ ..... ;!,I.:.~"" .'

~&fldetenJdDed ... to.beJtDclassified R ..... Chief, ROD WIIS IA.EO 13528, SectiOn l5 D8J8= SEP 3 0 2014 .

to fur." to 1.taalN1, .a4.et 1d.th tbe .... rieu ,.. ... 401' ... with the tr ....

1U •• tar .act poillt out .. t • "_4, thb would h .... 110 fotth. It 1 1Ia'

two occaalou like tllat, whell _ .toppe' the lurkbh t .... 10ll of CJpnaa. la

other word.. 011 the C..ch crl.i •• "170- took tt IIOl't of IIOncbelaat1, .1'.

ill ... M .. tOll, whtch td_t.te' ... You bow .. re WI .ot the ... t tdonatiOll!

JI'OII Shtl'l., "'pl. Bleck. who had "811 ........ 401' t. Afric.. ... 1Ia"....

to be ill .I' ..... t the ti_ of the ta.over. 8be hac1 ...... 1 ..... _satrtc.at

abUitJ to ....... 1' thi.... We aot Ihlrla, teapl. to .top .,. IIAJII. Aa4 ah •

.. ., ... the ... t ido .. tlO11 .. had of how the Son.t •• 14 it. Imw the,

...,1_ thelr tak., aad ao 011.

o!!Y!ff: 011 the '_pect of tlla Vl.t ... _I' 011 IA'I'O, partieuled, 011 vaited

Statea rel.tiOll. w:ltb Ita .111 ....... 14 tut _I' _ke ,our poeitioll _1'. dUft­

cult? If ao, i. whet .,1

_lsarl Ye.. It "d, but I .... ratoo4 it. 1 jan W to tell ., peopl.

thet wer. c..,l.ill1 .. that t.te •• tile _, it ••• We _r •• t _I' til Vi.taD,

.lId a. Chat ... 1 had .... t.r ..... tile "al-118 of tt. ",. c. ..... c.plat_d

tut we wel'8 _vt .. a lot of ... be aad 10 fortll out of GeI'MII" whteh ... _re,

'becau •• we were l'Ull1daa out of borabs tra Viet..... I bad to tell the Miatetera of

.. f .... a •• rta.t up to tbe Pri. Miatst.r_, "Look, tllia t .... rlcaa .. ut .... t;

the ,-deaa. are at wert. Vl.tIUUI; aDd the,'re ruu1a. out of t.ia kiad of equip­

.at, eo we're .ot .. to take it aad _.e It OWl' there to Vieta •• - '1'hea I bad

the e.e ktad of a.platDt. fl' ..... rtcea force. aDel per ..... l aad fl'. our other

36

" • • Pa,e determined to be Unclassified

Reif8lVitd Chill. RDO, WIIS IAI EO 13528, ~ ... Date: SEP 30 2014

elUa.. 1 tal •• "I ".r.CIIDCI ,our _plll .. t, ud it'. I .. ll. _pJalnt,

Ht tM hit •• ltat •• it .t .r l. th. 'II' ... t. lad ..... ,ot to ,et our "'t

people over ~r. ead tet ~ ... tlrlll "11' thlra to win ~. WIr."

Hatloff. Were JOu e.er I.kld to put • re, •• t foa: .lrect help for the hited

State. to the dUe., lad 114'1'0, for ... l.taael la ¥s..taaa'

!re1!ly!r. 1o.

!lItle((' N.... ea it .. _tch III. _e up ttae ad ... ta ta the Ill.tor, of the

alltuce. Do ,ou 1'''.'11' Wh'. the 'reach were 1. the AlpdaD Vll'f 'l'he, .Iated

help frail IATO ad thl, felt ~t ~t wa • proble. for 1A1:O.

"",,cHI" 1_. !be , ... tloa hal COM up ...... r of tiM, al.o t. ra,ard to the

r.ptd .plo,...t forca. Shouldn't ~e .rltl.h, 01' the Geraan., or the hlach ...

... people 4Iown thera'

HaUe'f: 1 I_Ii that did DOC COIle up durlPi ,our pedod •

..,l"erl 10.

IItCloff: I'll _t • few ..... 1'.1 , .. aUona, if 1 M" on ),OUr per,,,cU,,., on

*'1'0 oq."l&cl0 •• nd functtou. AI. r .. ult of )'OUr experteace, _ .0 ~ .e

t'be "rlean _le lD .TO and ttl ftJl'tlon, with a_ope! D14,ou .. e the _riean

c_U.lnt " • "tlllne.t onef

Le'aDltaerl 110, 1 ne".r acceptld the 'word pel'll.e .. t, beuu,' 1 hoped thet DOe .)'

tbere would be • r.pprocheae .. t of ofte kind or .nother with the Sovtet UntoD .ad thet

the teDlton wou~d SO down. .ut .en the)' bol.ted hrll., .nd there ... '" actual

iroo curtai., I jUlt did.' t .. e it ia ., tl ...

HaCloff: Do)'ou recall, poa.tlll, In )'our 0l'1alna1 acct:dtie. lD co ... ct:1on .,ttb

the IATO tra.t)', Wh,ther 'OU h,4 tbe 1.'1' ... 10 ... t thet ct .. , thlt the _erlc.a

37

.' . .. • ....J:.,. •••• '

Pal~ determined to ~ Unclassified , bY.ewed Chief, RDD~'WIt, ,I 1 ; I" EO 13528, SectIoiU Date:SEP 30 2014 '

eroop c_lI1aeat w. _ •• perua.nU Do)'ou recall eM AchH01l te.tl .. ,

Whea he waf c.lled before the .... t. eo..ltte •• t

!e!9&tHtI Wo, 1 ""'1' coa.t.ere. It perun_t, DO.

IItlsU' Ba va, a,ked the qUlltlon dtl'.etl" "J.. thl1 • ,.'fIIa1lftt cOMittlleat'"

Mad he at. polat blank. -10."

Ie!9.!S-!1'1 !'" but later OIl P .... 1e1.at • .t •• aho ............ t .., .. that it .. a·t

pama .. nt .Ubll'.

ltacloff c ... ter OIl Acb"oa waffled.

Lt!9!taerc 1 dlda't taow tbat •

• Sloffl When ,OU ... ad bt, __ lu, be taba ........ t 110 ... -18-' vSew.

II It ,OUI' f.elllll that _deaa 101'0e. cea 01' .bould ... I'educael'

LtleitHI' I Jlo, ab,olut.l, DOt. 1 ba.1 PaI't of ., " .... ent OIl thUI .. "ve a

lorce of ..... 088bl •• :lae la luro,., a 10l:'ci that baa cauSed out a ablloa of

detel:' ... ace. Our alUe. are h11d:l. ... ,. Of coune, ... hi .. "'ttlll:' foJ:'CI'

tbel:'l, f.1' bettiI:', tbaD tbe 0 .. ' 1 bael when l' wa tbere. 1 becI oal, fl"e

__ lea di"lalou; the Irltlah 0111, • co.ple, and the 8el'lllD8 0Dl, • couple.

1'tWI,JI '1'1 dl1flrIDt DOW. 80 1 jUlt feel thet 1f 70u tate out • "",tantta!

IlUll'ber of Allel'lceal. the id,. 18 101.. to 10 tbroulb e.r, .tIl'opeao alnd tN.t

the Oalted Sta"l 18 a,,,edna It. eooaeettoa. We'"e certalal, lot tb, talre­

dleat. or t'he GOUDt of force mere _leb haa doae me job for 35 , .. u. To

cba .. , it la an, aubatanti.l wa,. la a, oplalon, vUl put the 1d •• 1ft alDda

thet .Aaerle. hal 10lc :l.ta 1atare8t 1a lurope, .u ,ou'll flu me 8",,1'tl

taltS .• ad"aota.e of ""I',tbl ... Dd dotaa itl beat to a.par.t, whet ,,'., beeo

tryia, to do for 35 ,earl.

38

. , •• 1, •••• ', ...... _ •••

p~., det,nnioed to be Ugclassified

•RA"" owed Chief, ROD. WIS "'EO 13528, SectIoR a·

Date: SEP 30 2014

. ' ... ,-"' .. ,...- ....... -

"'Sldf I ... t •• 10U ..... '1'0'. nlatt ... "" '" "" eatanal pnw..a •• ....... that te, _terul to St ... op.phSa .na' ... people .... pt'OpoH' oa

occa.Soa to •• tead ,be ,eo,I'.,"'a .1". of tbe .11S.ac.. Otben ha .. loobel fol'

othel' .,a of "'''11''' aI'S ... tut.I'S" out.l •• that .. opephta .1'1., for

.... pl., la "" lIi.dl .... t ... the ,. ... t ... OIIlf.

IMBtSlerl 1 tldalt oftr tbe '''1'' w t ...... OM ateu10a Sa tbe Atlaatlc.

'!bat t. the ·ltat t of it, •• far •• 1 ca. .... 10l'th Afl'tca w. 8110 oOD.li.ered

a ,...lbllU,. fte 1 ... of .endS .... Ca~. 1III1t to ntafol''' our for ... 4Iown

ta Il'aa a .. thl ... Ute that ia t .... of _I' .... a_ u,. l_lataSa that ,v'l'J-

thi... the Canaa ... a produc. _ .ad to I'ItatOl'o, our poIi ttoa ta ceatl'al .u .. ope.

1'bare'. ao va, to .... a r .. l.at down there f'"- Ca~aJ' Itwoul. c.reate a

lot of c.oapti .. t.' loatett .. l '1'01.1 .. , ... I" .. It I'a*r ... tha buil. up

thell' fol'c •• thel'e Un Ivl'ope] '0 that .,be _ aaa tate ... force. out. lut

not .ic. vel'."

IItlotl: 1 tab It tlaat JOU would aot f.YOI' ateadi ... the .. op.pblc bouadad .••

of the .1liancet

IfI!iS .... c 110. I tltlalt that t • whJ TurteJ i •• 0 laporte"t. turte, i. a INffel'

on the .outh .. awl'D front.

Hatloff. '!'bere laa. be.n a tl'end la IATO ••• ,ou _11 bow-for a .... pla, the

I'.,.rt of "'1'he '!'hl'.a Wi •• Hen" aad the Hamal r.port, to iacr .... aad i.prove

con.ultetton &IlOna tbe power. of the ,Utes when polittcal crS ... 01' Idlltar:y

cl'1... .rl .. out. ide the aUianca. .... that .... the rlaht .ir.ctioa to 80:

to tr:y to i.prov. the coaau1tetto.?

39

~ "" . f ,., I • I ... 1'.' __ ._L-"_ ..... ~;...........,.~._.'"_ .... _ .. _" .... _ .

. , Palt determ.inedto. be Unclassified R8xiewed Chief, ROD, US IA, EO 13528, SectIon 11.5 Date: SEP 30 2014

kUatU!1'1 1 th1D1c. that ••• I'tei ...... t of .... u1t.tt ..... COIltl_ll,

.. ,..,. 1 ca. i.,ID. tut tD tile ••• of a _jol' f ••• t. tile aHa of 11'8 ••

for lute ... a ... Uea .1,hc .. call.d .... tllerl would ... c •• ulteU ••

buc I thtak • c •• Iderabl1 del,.. .f cOD •• l~ttOD t. co.ctauou.l, IOtD' OD •

.. POlrl DD ,.. ••• a", ,...ibl. chaDJ.a tn the .111uce .truct ..... factlOD!

\IIDltpl' I .,. atnct.I, do .,.. ... 11 or .. atAttoDt

Ittloffa !be o!'llntlltl •••

Jep1t •• r& 10, 1 thl .. tc-..... tl't.d, taned, _dtft,d .... 1' tile "'1". 1

tblalt tbat thel'l" DO I'll'" wh, it .h ... 14D't .. CODCtD .... I, looked .t, .t

8UPI, which b htaa dou.

Ittleff, .. 'thl .... n tbat ClD .. dou iD _ .. 11:,.. * -.cl .. r dlternnt

probl .. , •• vlao'. ra.pcm.i"ll f.r .... tt

.1, .. 1': 11o, 1 thla bel', the .1'1' ....... , •• ra ,....ttJ cl .. r cut. vatted

8tata. force •• 1', oa the coattuat .Dd the mDch aDd .dtbh ha.,. thetr OWD

_cl.ar forc •• , w1d.ch aI" for thetr i1atarael d.fn ...

!etloff:80 fDu dOD'C .,' .a, .. ed to cu ... that al'ouadt

wei .... I 10.

!etloffl Bow .bout ,tv! .. _1" r"poD.l"Utt~ for cODVaDtt.ul d.f .... to luropeaa

power. of the A1Ueace, do 'OU .,' that ••• po .... bUtt"

l4Dlta,r. TIle, heve the _301' rl'pout"tltc, DO'h there' ••• ,ur.1 fOlWlla

whtch ladle.te. that if war brob out la ceatrll hrope, 75% of the troopa would

be Buro,..a, .bout 80% of the Dav.l force. would be Buropeaa, .Dd .hut the ....

tilt .. for the Atr Porc •••

l!t1offt Bow about tb, queaUoa of .111tal'J btear.dOD within tbe .IUaac,:

40

· , ~.,~d to b8. U.,classified _"ned Chief, RD.D. WItS tAW EO 13528, Section 1.5 Date: SEP 3 0 2014

.. ,. th'''' it caa 10 f_the~' AcN14 it 10 Iwt_'" Ba. it I" .1NNt •• .. it ... lot

_IS •• I" J t.l* lateal'ated atatfa are •• t.1' .. '" a.l. 10. !heJ'w .ot

.11' .. t .... prett, _I'u •• t ••• a iatql'al fol'c •• IUPI _~u4 tltat out ....

tIaq ........ forc. _. but J t.l ..... f.1' •• 1 •• ult •• tactlul _1ta •• a4 .0

fo~da •• coac.ne ...... _,.

l!t!!f'. "'1. J'01I •• , tut the .,,,,lUuIlC. of .'10 to "1"UIl aatioul HCUI'­

ltJ ... c ...... in • ., _, fro. the Nat-. of tile Allieae.' •• lta1l11._at'

Ie it8tUl •• I'J .ltal for Allel'icaa •• curltJ 01' aott "'''BI'. Ye., I tM* eo. 1 _latalll ia 111 .,e ....... 80 fort. tlta' the

"'.t pleee to uf.ad tn DaleN Statea ia .1 .... the pnMllt ll'OIl Cal'teia.

Inlpff. 110 e ...... daea, OWl' tile 35 ,.ar.' Laa!S •• 1'1 Y •• , ao c .....

"'Sloff: Let _ a.k,.. tM klad of , ... att .. 1 41 ..... I a.W ,ou, towl'4 tlle

YeI'J clo.. of tlte latem.., oa the 1'01. .a C'ball'Mll of t'b. Joiat Glf.efe of Staff,

to c_at oa ... of the pel'l ... 1Iti ••• You' ... touc .... oa ._ of thea. INt

... 14 ,OU -e_at oa the .t),l ••• pel' .... lltl ....... ff.cts ....... of ... of

tlte ofUci.la wlt .... )'ou ••• It la ,our rol ••• SACIUl, pa ... ticulal'l, OR the

_dean .1 .. ' Do )'ou waat to .. , .a, _r •• bout SecNtal'J ICc....... tltaa )'OU ' ••

• lready •• 1.' I.alud.tael'l My view 1' ... r.iDl 111'. IIdIaMI'I have ...... I'."t. •• c0881'.l'lb1, Mcau ••

of h18 :t.ceat .tat_at that the Duclear _pon h •• ao Ililltal'J .... ""1108 .. 1'.

lie Ita. 1' .... 1 •• tlta, •• I'.c ... ad.d to the "' •• 14 .. t ... tlte Secr.tary of Defan ••

41

. . ••

PMldel8l'JlliDadto ,"'Unclassified ~f]d Cbiefl~~P!WIS,' II ,'EO 13528, HCIIOII Sol Da : SEP 30 2014

• . '" ...... ' .. '

tut dut, .bod ..... 1' uui, ... eucl .. r ...... .we" ••• ,nat .1..".18t-

.ot to ••

II lilt f I Clark Cllffor ••

Je.lS .. tl J ... ,"trUtd. to '0 wida 1Ir. Clifford. • ., ... 't 'V ... tt .. owr

t1aeh •• lIa ••• 1Iort ta ....

"tlofl- I'll •• ttOll ... 0' tM •• puc, Mer.tart •• of .. f ..... 10 ... 11

CUpatrtc va. dae ftr.to' tn "putt ..... r ........ ,.

\ae!te.rl I tlloua"t lie va. ou of the ... t of tM •• puc, .. cretert •• of •• f .....

... 1 .Ull '0. IeSl!ff I c,r .. "a ... ftO .ue ..... ", •• 'klI!ttgrt I .... D·t 118ft too _cb to do wiG c,n. ' •• e .urt .. ., pardcular

taaure.

"tlofl' 'aul .1tA. ftO .... up fro. 't1Ie III to bec_ tlla Deput)' Sacr.tal!'1 of

.. ,..... 1'67-6'.

1t!!!t!.l'1 II, a.'octat'OD wit" 'hul •• wit" tllat 1_, ... t t. OR •• U" t ..

Part ...... 118 •• wit" 1Ir. llella.ra aM tul.te. tllet. 118". a •• par.te co.v ....

U .... l .taff a .. a .. parat. Ducl_r .teff til SIAft.

Malloftl laM of the people who ..... eel llA .urt .. ,..r taur.-Jaow .hut Wlllt_

.... "

.... tl.!l" ".r, 11 ttl ••

!!:Itloff. JOD IleWaUShto.' .. aene. t. that po.1t,oa froa 1964 to '67.

1e!!1t •• r: W .... • t he with that .pael.1 Il'0u ......... t vaa t .... taff that

1Ir. 1Ie .... r •• et upt .,.teM .... 1' .... '.

Mat1on: It.a reall, the Batho .... Iroup that .ealt with the a,. teas ... 1,..18.

42 .

.. • I y

hi ••

Pa. !t ~.rmill{ld to be Unclassified " twed Chief. ROD, YCIIS II EO 13528, StctioR L5 0: SEP 30 2014

J!!SlPCfl 1Iow about .aul .1.'IIket Ie •• n.. fl'. '67 to '69 to tbe !M ,..ttt_.

WP!IH!" 1Io,! had -1'1 ltttl. aoatact wUh h:l. ••

nesldfl 4fwo of tba Jo:l.ot Cbt.,. Cbainea Who .uc ..... 1011, fll'.t ...... 11 t111101' ,

..... thaD GeIIeftl lal'1 •• al.l'.

ItI!nlll' I Va aot aGOd ,uppol't fl'. hth of tba OD MTO pJ'obl... Iotla of

theII an "1'7 .. 11 tafoneel ad "1'7 .. lpf1l1.

IItlo,f, law .bout oa t_ .ff •• tS ........... tba '*11a. of tbe pI'8.1'aat., I

chi. that JOU' ... 1n.', c-.atecJ tut Jobu .. eltela't H. to .t.pl., •• an.t.

al'." of tbe ,l'Obl •••• 'tel Ie_." •• tia wat OD. »tel J01I haft • .,. "'11 ...

• t all wlch 1UoD, chI .ucce.~1' of JoIm ... '

It!'d!ll1'1 Ye ....... ttel' of f.ct 1 had • aood .aU .. that 1 1' .... 1' vi th

111' •• i'Dll. It ... l'i8ht .fial' be took offtc •• ta J .... 1'1 1969. .. caM co

ll'U'ab with l1.tl ... 1' .M 1' ••• till aot., 11ttl. cel'd OD which 1 put note.

to bl'taf hta. lUua ... l1.ttapl'.

"doff I Do,ou ....... 1' 1OUl' 1"l'a •• l_ of thea?

leapls.al'1 loth dee,l, iatel'a"a. t. _TO, ..... f.1' •• I ... coneaned .....

.. fiDa 'UPPO'l't.

IIttloff: Wbo __ • tbe fOl'atan 1 ••• el'. la daf.... aDel fOl'etp pollc, ,.l'ticull'l,

l.pn.HeI 70U ctul'ta. ,OUI' teDun •• 84C&ftt You've Matioucl .... of t .... -you

_atioDeei De Caull., ... 10ul' dull .. e vi th hta-aDcl I thlat ,ou _Dt1oaeel I0Il8

of tho.e "''IO .ecl'etel'J a"l'.l.. Al:e t_l'e • ., otbel' people'

I.t!!it.81'1 GeGeI'al Su .. , of 'IIII'D,. I hael • Il'eet ... , eI •• u. •• 8.eI 10.1 fd.au­

.hlp with hi. thl'OUIh the :l.aP'C'OYaeDt .Del aod.1'1llUUOD of the Turktah fol'c.,.

.'

.~ ••• . •••• l:...,..;.,. '" ';.," ',-. j

• t • "« ..

determined to be Uaclassified awed Chief, ROD, WIIS

I EO 13526, SoItioII U Dale: SEP 30 2014

IISloff, IOD. of Cba .. f •••• alni.t,r. or forelan ainl.t,r. particularl,

lapr •••• el JOu"

"'''111'1 ••

Hatloff: !he la.t qu •• tioaa the ... one 1 'Ibct ,ou .bout JOUr rol ... Chair-,

•• of the JOiRt Chief. - what do JOU r ... rd •• Jour ".101' .chi ....... ta .Dd

IUCCl .... durt1l8 Jour gaur, .. IACBUkf

Leaa1ta,r: Ye., the relocation, clla ... of'planl, .lao.t '.'1', •• ,.ct of the

v'hol. thi. that ._ aecoaplt..hed ... relult of the eJecllOn of Gener.l De Gaulle

to reaove .11 MiTa aDd for'ian allitery forc •• froa 'r.ne.. 1 cOD.ict.r the ".101'

ICcoaplla'baent. of .,,1,.. Oger • hlndr.d thou .. 1Ul people. • bUllon dollar llae

of coaaunic.Uonl. with equl,...t aad .0 forth, out of 'r.nc., a1Ul the r.loca-.

tlon In a.man" Belli .. , .nd the htherl.ndl, .nd the _ ..... t and relocation

of the Supreme H.adquartera, Allied rorce. Centr.l lurope .1Ul Allied rorce.

Ceatral lurope. 'J.'bat perlo4 of two and .e-half ,..are, 1 thlnk, lD01 .. d a

"'.101' ICcOllpl18laent done v1th aood relation. v1th Geaer.l De Gaulle aDd 'raRC ••

• worbdout co.tlnae.c, ,...u-the coati", •• , 'laal I ucle with General

AUleret, who .. _ the 'reDch Chief of DefeD ... taff, .ftar tbe break. We both

re.lbed thf.t if there .M ... r t Prance .ou1c1 DO doubt be iD It f a.d we .tarted

the d •• elo,.eat of contin.ency pIa .. for the ut111satlon of 'rench force.. It

haa d •• eloped to the poiDt now.ere I belle.e .e ..... the belt .nll& ... ta,

ahort of comaaad. that are pOlI1bl. to .ttaln.

HatloffaHow about the other .1d. of the coiD! ltAy dllappaiatlnnel, aD, uneoa­

,let.d ta.k., that ,ou would ha •• llbd to ha •• fialaheel, 1a RATa! I

LamiUer: I'd ltke to edd to th. accoaplbhaenta the apeed with which .. were

44

Page determined to be Unclassified fJ8rtjIWdCliilff., ROD ...... tAl EO 13526. Sectioa 15 Oa)8: SEP 30 2014

, I

.bl. to I.t • e_ ... fre. ••• 1 .. nUll.tto •• , tile ....... 1 polle, to " ... 1.

n.,..,. 1. 1968.

",dofl: OIl the othe ... 141., •• ,thl" ,hat ,OU would ..... Uud to .... e_

pla.d'

.... " .... 1 leall" 1 ja,t dOll't bov.

"Sl9f~1 !be ... ',.o ....... "'" ,.00 .hould 'be .. W dt .. ,pot .... t •• If Jou

dld.'t.

,-,g,ll 1 f •• l pr.t" coaflde.t that 1 l.ft ...... world., ora-atutloa

.f.r the htat ... of arut c_ .... due to .u ... l De Gaull. '. _cl.lo ••

lfadolfa 'l'baat you .. .., -.ch. Ga •• I.ellattHr, for ,.,..1' coope ... tioa .ad ¥llll ....

.... to .bare your r.collectl_ with ....

• 1S!!r: I appr.cla ... t 1M 'n dol.,. I'd 11b to eoatrt_. Co .. tti_

th18 dOWll o. paper .. cau ...... d.,. we ., heva to do it apia, .d at l.a.,

peopl. woulel be .ble '0 look Net .nel 1.al'D ... thl111 fra What .. dld. I .... t

•• , thet .. _eI DOChi.. to ao on with the ••• bll ..... t of 81'0. We "''''1' elr .... eI that .ucb .n ... nt would ever t.b ,l.ce. 1 thl .. OftI' th. ,..al'8 1

tab the areat •• t prid. In ., ... oetatlon anel the ace.,ll'''nt. of .TO to

.. ta. partlcul.rly 35 ".'1" of r.latlve ... c.~

lfatloff: Clrtalnl,. your .ctlvlti •• in connection witb IATO to thl. d.,. refl.ct

your contlnu.. iatere.t In thi. alliaac ••

L •• U.er: Y •• , indaed.

Madoff: TIIaat ,.ou v • .., _h.

'l.!!!d:t.a.rl 1 .pprectate It, aDel If you run l.to ... particular SIP" don't

ba.i tat. to l.t .. lmov.

45

'It it_

Pap determined to ~ Unclassified R~ed Chief, ROD, WIS' 1,.013528, Seetion Q: 01 SEP 30 2014

Dear Mr. Goldberg,

10 February 1982

Thank you for your letter of 26 January 1982 which explains the inteTView exchange system being established among the historical offices within the Department of Defense (Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, JCS and OSD.)

Since under the established system it is not anticipated that the interviews will be available to anyone other than official historians attached to the above listed offices, I prefer that access to my interviews with you and your staff (on 21 March 1914 and 4 March 1976) be "open and without restrictions."

General,

Dr. Alfred Goldberg OSD Historian Room Se32S, The Pentagon Washington, D.C. 20301

Sincerely,

(Ret.)

, !

, !Jr'.'

P etermtned to J>e UDCl~ssifl8d R .. alief, 'ROD;- ... ,.', J.

II 0 13526, SectIoO 3.f' b

Date: SEP 30 2014

. , t

-------u. ~~_ :::~~-:-~~-i?r~~~"~~-:1:!1~E"'i~~ ~ . .... " .......... ' ..... -' ... '--"-"" " .... --.. ~B .. ~-·C---~r-~--l!:~.k".~ ~~=-'.~~-~=:---~=~-. ===:~~:-~~~:-~----.-----

u ..... __ .. _ ........... --- •• -_ ••••• -.-.- .. , .. - ... (.r-w.-1~ ~ . ..,...,I -' ..... -'~) ............ --.. --.-.. _""""-,,-_.-.-_ ..... - -.- ...... ,--~- "',..~-~.--~- •• ~'" - ~ ••• -. -.-. __ ...... - -- .. -_ .... _. -- .. _"".-.. •••. - •• -----..... - .. -~ .. "'-... ---.. ~--... -- ... , ... "' .. "' .... ~.----,'" ,-_. * "",,, --~- ... ,:,,----.... --

_.- ... .... ~ .... -- -.1i, ... ~ ... -- ...... -.. '-' , ..... --, ... -... --.~-'"'~.-.... -----.. , ... ~-.... "', ... ----..... ~- .. - ...

. -. - ~-.. ~ ......... --.-~ ... ~ . - -~ ... ___ ......... - .. ~._ .. "', .. _"_" "'.' __ ... __ . __ ._.".._,._ .... _ .. ~_. ___ ,_ ....... ·• ... "'_u .... _.~ .. -" -.- .. - ....... ~-_.- _, _ .• '"'''' ~ .. ~ •. .., ......... " --.... """".,