COPYRIGHT RESERVED Note: Copyright in this transcript is reserved to the Department of Finance, Services and Innovation. The reproduction, except under authority from the Department of Finance, Services and Innovation, of the contents of this transcript for any purpose other than the conduct of these proceedings is prohibited. INQUIRY UNDER THE CHARITABLE FUNDRAISING ACT 1991 Public Hearing Held at Level 3, LPI Building Queens Square 1 Prince Albert Road Sydney, New South Wales On Thursday, 28 September 2017 at 10am (Day 16) BEFORE: The Public Inquirer, The Hon. P A Bergin SC Anthony Cheshire SC Ms Jennifer Single Mr Enzo Camporeale .28/09/2017 (16) 1745 Transcript produced by DTI

1 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Yes, thank you. Yes, Mr Cheshire. 2 3 MR CHESHIRE: Madam Inquirer, one matter of housekeeping, 4 an additional matter to be added to the tender. I'd seek 5 for that to be marked for identification and I think it is 6 M. 7 8 MFI-M DOCUMENT CONTAINING ADDITIONS TO EXHIBIT 10, VOLUME 1 9 10 MR CHESHIRE: I call Mr Haines. 11 12 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Yes, Mr Haines, come to the witness box. 13 14 MR HODGES: I appear for Mr Haines. 15 16 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Thank you, Mr Hodges. 17 18 <JOHN EDWARD HAINES, sworn: 19 20 MR HODGES: On behalf of Mr Haines, I take a general 21 objection under section 41N(2) of the Charitable 22 Fundraising Act, on the grounds that the evidence Mr Haines 23 gives to this Inquiry might tend to incriminate him. I 24 seek that the objection extend to all evidence he gives 25 concerning his acts or omissions during the period 1996 to 26 May 2017 as President or Vice-President -- 27 28 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Did you say 1996? 29 30 MR HODGES: I withdraw that. 31 32 PUBLIC INQUIRER: The terms of Inquiry are broad, but not 33 that broad, I don't think. 34 35 MR CHESHIRE: 2007. 36 37 MR HODGES: I am indebted to Mr Cheshire. From 2007 to May 38 2017, as President or Vice-President of RSL (NSW) and to 39 evidence concerning the receipt by him of moneys in his 40 role as the President and Honorary Pensions Welfare and 41 Bereavement Officer at the Granville RSL sub-branch and to 42 the extent that I require leave, I would seek to examine 43 the transcript. 44 45 PUBLIC INQUIRER: That's noted, thank you, Mr Hodges. 46 Yes, Mr Cheshire, 47 .28/09/2017 (16) 1746 J E HAINES Transcript produced by DTI

1 <EXAMINATION BY MR CHESHIRE: 2 3 MR CHESHIRE: Q. Would you give the Inquiry your full 4 name, please. 5 A. John Edward Haines. 6 7 Q. Do you live in Sydney? 8 A. I live at Dundas. 9 10 Q. And your current occupation? 11 A. Retired. 12 13 Q. When did you first commence with RSL (NSW) as a State 14 Councillor? 15 A. As a State Councillor in 1996. 16 17 Q. Had you had some involvement with RSL (NSW) prior to 18 that? 19 A. Prior to that, I was just a member of the RSL and some 20 of the work that they wanted me to do leading up to that, 21 at the local sub-branch level. 22 23 Q. So, from 1996, you were a State Councillor? 24 A. 1996, I was State Vice-President. 25 26 Q. That was the first time you were a State Councillor; 27 is that correct? 28 A. I have never been a State Councillor. 29 30 Q. You draw a distinction between the Vice-Presidents and 31 State Councillors, do you? 32 A. Yes. 33 34 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. You are a member of the State 35 Council, but you had an office of -- 36 A. State Councillor and the State Vice-President, yes. 37 38 MR CHESHIRE: Q. And you continued then as a 39 Vice-President through until recently; is that correct? 40 A. Until June - June, 19 - sorry, 2016. 41 42 Q. And at that stage, what happened then? 43 A. June 2016, Mr White, who was the President, he was 44 elected to the National President's position and I then 45 took over as the Acting State President, New South Wales. 46 47 Q. You then continued in that role until September; is .28/09/2017 (16) 1747 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 that correct? 2 A. Until a by-election was held and then I became the 3 State President. 4 5 Q. Was that on 29 September? 6 A. Yes. 7 8 Q. Then you continued in that role until? 9 A. 24 May 2017. 10 11 Q. And at that stage, there was a further election? 12 A. Correct. 13 14 Q. Did you stand in that election? 15 A. I did. 16 17 Q. And you were not elected; is that correct? 18 A. I was defeated, yes. 19 20 Q. I think also you were elected to the Acting 21 State President role or appointed to that role on 22 25 November 2014; is that correct? 23 A. 2014-2015. 24 25 Q. 25 November 2014? 26 A. Yes, 25 November. 27 28 Q. 2014, you became Acting State President? 29 A. Yes, 25 November 2014, yes. . 30 31 Q. And I think you continued in that role until 32 12 December? 33 A. Correct. 34 35 Q. Then on 12 December, did you resume being a 36 Vice-President? 37 A. That's right, yes. 38 39 Q. And I think you were what's known as Vice-President 40 Metro, is that correct? 41 A. Metropolitan, yes. 42 43 Q. And being one of three Vice-Presidents? 44 A. Correct. 45 46 Q. You also have been a member of a sub-branch; correct? 47 A. Yes, I have. .28/09/2017 (16) 1748 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 2 Q. Has that sub-branch changed or remained the same? 3 A. No, my first sub-branch was Auburn, and my recent one 4 is from 1980, I think, '82, '83, Granville RSL sub-branch, 5 which I still remain. 6 7 Q. Have you held a position in the Granville sub-branch? 8 A. I did, I held position as President and also Pensioner 9 Welfare Officer and also Bereavement Officer. 10 11 Q. As President, what was your period of holding that 12 office? 13 A. I can't recall. 14 15 Q. Approximately? 16 A. Even approximately, I couldn't, until 2014, that was - 17 I'd say it was a few years up to 2014, when I resigned. 18 19 Q. So between 2014 and 2017, were you unallocated to a 20 sub-branch? 21 A. I still - Granville was still my sub-branch. 22 23 Q. I beg your pardon, sorry. So you were President and 24 then went back to being an ordinary member? 25 A. Yes. 26 27 Q. Thank you. I think I'm right that from time to time 28 for RSL (NSW) you also served on various committees? 29 A. Correct, yes. 30 31 Q. Including the Audit and Risk Management or Finance, 32 Audit and Risk Management? 33 A. For a short period of time, yes. 34 35 Q. What was the period when you were on either of those 36 committees? 37 A. I beg your pardon? 38 39 Q. When were you on either of those committees? 40 A. I can't remember the dates. It was only for a short 41 period of time that that was in operation. 42 43 Q. You are aware that the Finance, Audit and Risk 44 Committee was known as the FARM Committee; correct? 45 A. That's correct. 46 47 Q. Were you ever on the FARM Committee? .28/09/2017 (16) 1749 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 A. Yes, for a short period of time, once again. 2 3 Q. Do you recall now what the period was when you were on 4 that committee? 5 A. No, I'm sorry, not the State -- 6 7 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. 2013, perhaps, through to 2014, or 8 '16. Do you recall being on the committee in -- 9 A. I know I was on the committee, but I couldn't 10 remember -- 11 12 Q. Just let me finish the question. Just pause for a 13 minute, Mr Haines. Were you on the committee from 2013 to 14 2017 and were you Chairman for a short while? 15 A. For a short period of time, yes. 16 17 Q. In 2015? 18 A. Yes. 19 20 MR CHESHIRE: Q. Was that the committee which approved 21 or ratified the presidential expenses? 22 A. That is right. 23 24 Q. Am I right that the way that those expenses came to 25 that committee was they came as effectively a line item, 26 being all of the expenses of the State President put 27 together; is that correct? 28 A. Correct, in a financial report, yes. 29 30 Q. And did you receive, as part of that committee, the 31 underlying documents that went to show the makeup of that 32 line item? 33 A. The various aspects in the out-of-pocket expenses, you 34 mean? 35 36 Q. Yes. 37 A. Yes, but not to any great extent. There wasn't a lot 38 of information. 39 40 Q. So if we take, for instance, Mr Rowe's presidential 41 credit card, you are aware that he had one of those? 42 A. I was aware he had a credit card. I was aware of 43 that, yes. 44 45 Q. With the items he put on the credit card, did you 46 receive any breakdown of those? 47 A. No. .28/09/2017 (16) 1750 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 2 Q. Did you receive the credit card statements? 3 A. No. 4 5 Q. So you just received a composite figure of his 6 expenses; is that right? 7 A. That's correct, yes. 8 9 Q. To your understanding, where was any supervision and 10 oversight of those expenses of Mr Rowe's carried out? 11 A. Prior to coming to the committee, that would have been 12 the Chief Financial Officer and the State Treasurer. 13 14 Q. Being Ms Mulliner and Mr White; correct? 15 A. Correct, yes. 16 17 Q. With the benefit of hindsight, do you accept that that 18 level of supervision was not adequate? 19 A. Could I answer that with an explanation? 20 21 Q. Yes. 22 A. Yes, I do agree that, in hindsight, there should have 23 been more information given to the members. However, after 24 June 2016, when I became President, or Acting President, 25 I asked could we receive a breakdown of all of the expenses 26 of all State Councillors and the President and Treasurer, 27 and I'm assured, to this day, that continues. So we did 28 get a breakdown of travel costs, meals and accommodation. 29 Up until then, I wasn't privy to any of that information. 30 31 Q. When you say you were given a breakdown, was that a 32 breakdown being given to the committee or to the whole -- 33 A. To the committee. To the Finance Committee, yes. 34 35 Q. But not to the whole of State Council? 36 A. No. 37 38 Q. And you brought that system in because it seemed to 39 you to be a sensible reaction to what had occurred with 40 Mr Rowe's expenses; correct? 41 A. Correct, and others, yes. 42 43 Q. When you say "others", what do you mean by that? 44 A. Well, other State Councillors - it depends on where 45 you live - their expenses are far greater than, say, the 46 metropolitan. The metropolitan expenses weren't as great. 47 Whereas if you lived in the country and travelled to the .28/09/2017 (16) 1751 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 city, it was great. Mr McManus-Smith who had other duties, 2 along with Invictus Games, his expenses were far greater 3 than most, but there was a reason for that. That was his 4 work within the Invictus Games. 5 6 Q. Would it be fair to say that, at least prior to you 7 introducing those reforms, there was very little oversight 8 of any of the expenses of anyone on State Council? 9 A. Correct. 10 11 Q. It was largely left to Mr White and Ms Mulliner? 12 A. Mr White signed off on Vice-Presidents' and 13 State Councillors' expenses. 14 15 Q. When you say "signed off", that was in relation to 16 reimbursement; correct? 17 A. Yes. 18 19 Q. But not necessarily in respect of matters that had 20 been put on Mr Rowe's credit card; correct? 21 A. We never saw that. That was Mr White and Mr Rowe. 22 23 Q. So, with Mr Rowe's credit card expenses, as you 24 understand it, they were paid automatically? 25 A. Correct - I assume they were paid after Mr White went 26 through them and checked on them and then okayed them. He 27 would have signed off on them, yes. 28 29 Q. When you say "assume", you never had any discussion 30 with Mr White as to whether that actually was happening; 31 correct? 32 A. I had very little discussion with Mr White. 33 34 Q. Am I right also that on no occasion were any of your 35 expenses ever questioned? 36 A. I placed - I did not claim - I claimed few expenses. 37 I covered most of my expenses myself. 38 39 Q. But would it be fair to say that you cannot now recall 40 any occasion on which your expenses were questioned? 41 A. No, never questioned. 42 43 Q. To your knowledge, you are not aware of anybody else's 44 expenses ever being questioned, at least until Mr Rowe 45 left; correct? 46 A. Mr White didn't inform us of anyone being questioned. 47 He would have - he may have spoken to them privately, but .28/09/2017 (16) 1752 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 certainly never raised it with me. 2 3 Q. You're not aware of anybody's expenses ever being 4 rejected; correct? 5 A. No, if he did that, he would have raised that with the 6 State Councillor or Vice-President and they would have 7 discussed it, corrected it or passed it. 8 9 Q. But you never became aware of that occurring? 10 A. No, no. 11 12 Q. So, as you understand it, effectively, the way that it 13 was dealt with was a rubber stamp, in effect, for what was 14 claimed; correct? 15 A. Yes. 16 17 Q. And one relied upon, or the State Council relied upon 18 each of the members of State Council to do the right thing? 19 A. Correct, and most of them did, yes. 20 21 Q. And that's why I think you say that you introduced 22 greater systems when you became President; correct? 23 A. Well, I spoke to the Financial Officer and indicated 24 that I thought it was unfair that we just saw a line item 25 not knowing how the break-up occurred and to give some 26 idea, of course, how we could operate better. The metros, 27 their costs were less than country, and it was unfair that 28 some of the country Vice-Presidents and State Councillors 29 would be accused of over-spending when in actual fact it 30 wasn't their fault. 31 32 Q. You are aware, aren't you, that there was a State 33 Precedential Guidelines that was approved in November 2010 34 by State Council; correct? 35 A. Correct, yes. 36 37 Q. At least prior to Mr Rowe resigning, did you have any 38 doubt as to whether that document was in fact in force? 39 A. No. 40 41 Q. But you are aware there was discussion after Mr Rowe 42 left about whether the guidelines were in fact in force; 43 correct? 44 A. Enforced and whether they could be improved upon. 45 46 Q. One of the questions that was raised, wasn't it, was 47 the fact that Mr Rowe had not formally signed the .28/09/2017 (16) 1753 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 guidelines; correct? 2 A. Correct. 3 4 Q. Some time later, a contract was brought in for the 5 State President which had guidelines attached to it; 6 correct? 7 A. Correct. 8 9 Q. That, I think, was for Mr White? 10 A. Mr White, yes. 11 12 Q. And you would agree that that was a sensible move; 13 correct? 14 A. Yes. I believe it was, and also it kept others aware 15 that there may well be a similar contract that may well 16 come to State Councillors. 17 18 Q. Did you, at any time when you were President or Acting 19 President, sign any similar contract or State President's 20 Guidelines? 21 A. I received a contract and I questioned some of the 22 items - some of the line items in there, so I didn't sign 23 it. 24 25 Q. When was that that you received that? 26 A. After I became State President in September, not 27 before - not whilst I was acting, but whilst I was the 28 State President. 29 30 Q. What then happened with that document? Was it ever 31 finalised? Did anybody come back to you? 32 A. I indicated to the financial - either Mr O'Brien or 33 Mr Keki, that I was uncomfortable with a number of items in 34 there and that I needed further discussion and I wouldn't 35 sign it until they were corrected. 36 37 Q. What happened? Were they corrected? 38 A. No. 39 40 Q. So it just went unsigned, did it, in effect? 41 A. Correct. I've still got it. 42 43 Q. Would it be fair to say that that's a matter that 44 ought to have been taken further by somebody else? 45 A. I suppose somebody else. I expected someone would 46 come back and we'd sit down and have a talk about some of 47 the issues that I thought were - that shouldn't be in .28/09/2017 (16) 1754 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 there. That didn't happen, and I didn't pursue the matter. 2 3 Q. It appears then that, at least in some respects, the 4 matters that were brought in following Mr Rowe's departure 5 weren't actually followed through with sufficient vigour; 6 correct? 7 A. Correct. In September I received a corporate card 8 that would allow me to carry, or to claim expenses through 9 the corporate card system. I only used that. I never 10 claimed any expenses other than through the corporate card. 11 12 Q. And with your corporate card, that was a credit card; 13 correct? 14 A. A corporate credit card, yes. 15 16 Q. That was paid automatically by RSL (NSW) each month? 17 A. Yes. Each month they would give me the statement and 18 I'd identify what meeting I went to, whether I attended a 19 National Board meeting seminar and I'd have the appropriate 20 receipts and I'd put the receipts with that statement. 21 22 Q. With your receipts, would it be fair to say that you 23 provided all of your receipts, or almost all of your 24 receipts, or just some of the receipts? 25 A. All my receipts. 26 27 Q. And did you ever withdraw cash on that credit card? 28 A. No, no. 29 30 Q. Did you have an allowance for a motor car on your -- 31 A. No, I never had a motor car. I've got my own. 32 33 Q. The system then with the credit card statement, who 34 provided that to you each month? 35 A. The finance department, through the personal 36 assistant. She'd bring in and we'd go through it and check 37 off the diary as to where I'd travelled to, and I'd make a 38 notation of that on the statement with the receipts. 39 40 Q. What then happened to that credit card statement? 41 A. It went down to the finance department. 42 43 Q. Yes. 44 A. And then after that, I never heard any more unless 45 there was an issue with it. They'd come and ask me could I 46 clarify a particular meeting that I attended, and I'd have 47 the minutes of that meeting. .28/09/2017 (16) 1755 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 2 Q. Did it then go to a committee for formal ratification? 3 A. That would go to the Finance Committee to ratify the 4 expenses. That would include the State President's 5 expenses on the corporate card. 6 7 Q. Are you able to assist that, when it then went to that 8 committee, did it go as a single line item, or were there 9 credit card statements attached, or how was it dealt with? 10 A. We received a broadsheet of all the State Councillors, 11 and attached to the broadsheet would be a corporate card 12 sheet that would identify the State President's expenses. 13 14 Q. Did you ever sit on the committee during the time when 15 you were President, or Acting President? 16 A. On which committee? 17 18 Q. On the Finance Committee that dealt with the 19 ratification of the expenses? 20 A. Yes, I did. The Chairman - traditionally the Chairman 21 of that committee is the State Treasurer. I sat on it, 22 yes. 23 24 Q. Did that mean that you were called upon to, in effect, 25 ratify your own expenses? 26 A. Ratify and justify and also correct. 27 28 Q. But also, then, to vote on the ratification of your 29 expenses? 30 A. Correct. 31 32 Q. Would you accept that that was a conflict of interest, 33 to put you in that position? 34 A. I would accept that - yes, I would accept it's a 35 conflict of interest. However, on one occasion when I 36 first became President, the item suggested that the 37 State President's expenses, I believe was something like 38 $28,000. I'd only been there for a month or so, and I 39 insisted that that be corrected. What had happened is that 40 they'd placed Mr White's expenses in with mine and I 41 objected and asked if they'd be separated. That wouldn't 42 have happened if I hadn't have been on the committee. 43 44 Q. Would you accept that a better way of dealing with it 45 would have been for the committee, if they are assessing 46 your expenses, to sit without you? 47 A. Correct. .28/09/2017 (16) 1756 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 2 Q. And then if they have a question, to come to you and 3 then you can resolve it that way? 4 A. Correct, and ask me to explain, yes. 5 6 Q. Did anybody ever discuss whether it was appropriate 7 for people to be on a committee when discussing their own 8 expenses? 9 A. No, no. 10 11 Q. Did that continue to be the case, to your 12 understanding, at least until May of this year? 13 A. Yes, that's right. 14 15 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. What sort of things did you not 16 like about the contract that they sent you? 17 A. Madam Inquirer, within the system - and I understand 18 the feelings of others - it stated that any Fly Buys 19 accrued by an individual, a Vice-President or State 20 Councillor, would be credited to his name. I believe it 21 should be credited to the company's name. The company was 22 the one paying for the airfare. I didn't come across that 23 that often, because I was a metropolitan State Councillor 24 and I understand the country guys would be different. That 25 really didn't get off the table. I just felt uncomfortable 26 receiving Fly Buys; in actual fact, I don't think they even 27 had my number. I refused to give them my number. 28 29 The other one, of course, is one of the statements is 30 that the State President's responsible for virtually all of 31 the happenings of State Branch. That sounds okay, in the 32 first instance; not if you are not told a lot of the 33 information. The information flow, for instance, in some 34 of the financial areas, I don't think we were kept abreast 35 of what was happening and I was uncomfortable with that 36 item too. 37 38 Q. So you wanted a layer of reporting for your 39 responsibility to be particularised? 40 A. That's right. And then I could question that, or the 41 President could question that. I don't know whether that 42 has progressed any further, but it wasn't there when I left 43 on 24 May. 44 45 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Thank you. 46 47 MR CHESHIRE: Q. I think you referred then to Fly Buys, .28/09/2017 (16) 1757 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 I think you meant Frequent Flyer points; is that right? 2 A. Sorry, yes, Frequent Flyers, yes - I'm sorry, yes, 3 Frequent Flyers. 4 5 Q. In relation to Mr Rowe's expenses, prior to 6 25 November 2014, had you had any suspicions that Mr Rowe 7 was not dealing with his expenses appropriately? 8 A. No. 9 10 Q. Had you heard any rumours about that? 11 A. No. 12 13 Q. You are aware that there are also guidelines that 14 govern State Councillors; correct? 15 A. Correct. 16 17 Q. In saying State Councillors, they governed 18 Vice-Presidents in the same way as State Councillors; 19 correct? 20 A. A different sheet, but, yes, the same. 21 22 Q. They included, for instance, meal allowances; correct? 23 A. Correct. 24 25 Q. And that, I think, was $15 for breakfast, $15 for 26 lunch and $30, which then rose to $50, for dinner; correct? 27 A. That's correct, yes. 28 29 Q. Prior to Mr Rowe's departure, did you have meals with 30 him from time to time? 31 A. I had - on one occasion he had a meeting with two 32 people - I got a phone call, I was in the building, would 33 I like to come down and have lunch, and I had lunch at 34 Mazzaro's - the only time that I had lunch on behalf of 35 State Council. The other time was a private lunch that I 36 had with another person, but only once, yes. 37 38 Q. Did Mr Rowe pay for you on that occasion? 39 A. Either Mr Rowe paid for it or State Branch paid for 40 it, someone paid for it. 41 42 Q. Were you aware how much was being spent on the lunch? 43 A. No. 44 45 Q. It would be likely, would it not, that it was greater 46 than $15 for each person; correct? 47 A. At Mazzaro's? .28/09/2017 (16) 1758 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 2 Q. Yes. 3 A. It would be much more than $15. 4 5 Q. Yes, and you would understand that, pursuant to the 6 guidelines, the amount that ought to have been spent on you 7 for lunch was limited to $15; correct? 8 A. Yes, yes. 9 10 Q. Would I be right to say that, at that time, it didn't 11 occur to you that, in fact, Mr Rowe was likely going 12 outside of the guidelines in paying for your lunch? 13 A. Either that, or it came under an item within State 14 Branch, for State Branch entertainment, rather than the 15 State President. 16 17 Q. When you, then, became later acting and then President 18 and you had the credit card, did you pay for other people 19 on occasion on your credit card? 20 A. If I remember rightly, on two occasions - once when 21 the State President of Victoria was in town and he came 22 around and had a cup of coffee. We had a light lunch. It 23 was about $25 between the two of us. And on one other 24 occasion, I believe when I had coffee and lunch with the 25 now State President prior to the election. 26 27 Q. What about with other members of State Council? 28 A. I used the credit card when we had a visitor from New 29 Zealand. He was representing the New Zealand President. 30 I used the credit card for the Anzac lunch. The breakfast, 31 I used my own credit card because my wife was with me. 32 33 Q. Would I be right in saying that you draw a distinction 34 here between a meal where you are, as it were, paying for 35 external guests and a meal which is just between members of 36 State Council? 37 A. Yes. 38 39 Q. If you were having a meal with another member of 40 State Council, would you then put that on the RSL credit 41 card for both of you? 42 A. If I was having a meal and - yes, that would be 43 correct, but if I was having a meal and I was paying off my 44 credit card, my Visa card, I would pay that myself. 45 46 Q. But when you were President and Acting President, did 47 you on occasions pay for other State Councillors to have .28/09/2017 (16) 1759 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 meals with you? 2 A. If I did, it was rare. 3 4 Q. And what about members of staff? 5 A. I can't recall having a lunch or a meal with staff. 6 I can't recall. It may have happened. 7 8 Q. How often were you in Sydney when you were President 9 or Acting President on, as it were, the business of 10 RSL (NSW)? 11 A. Monday to Friday, I kept it down to about 16 to 12 20 hours a week and -- 13 14 Q. And did - I'm sorry. 15 A. Of a weekend, I didn't go into town. I didn't have 16 the - how can I say it - I wasn't able to access into Anzac 17 House on the weekend, so I didn't go in on the weekend. If 18 I had a function that night, I'd go in later on in the day, 19 yes. 20 21 Q. So how many times a week Monday to Friday were you in 22 Sydney? 23 A. Max five days a week. Sometimes only two or three 24 days. 25 26 Q. Average? 27 A. Average hours? 28 29 Q. No, days. 30 A. Days, average, I'd say three and a half to four. 31 32 Q. And on those three and a half to four days, if you 33 were here over lunchtime, what did you normally do? 34 A. I'd go and have a sandwich and a cup of coffee in the 35 food court next door. 36 37 Q. Did you charge that to the RSL credit card? 38 A. I paid for that myself. 39 40 Q. Did you have any guidelines that told you what you 41 could and couldn't do about things such as meals as 42 President? 43 A. Yes, the President's guidelines, yes, and I followed 44 that mainly from the State President's Guidelines, as to 45 what -- 46 47 Q. Was that the 2010 version or had there been another .28/09/2017 (16) 1760 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 version by that time? 2 A. I've only seen one version. 3 4 Q. And that's the 2010 version? 5 A. Yes. 6 7 Q. Am I right that you said that there were things in 8 your contract that you were not happy about -- 9 A. Mmm-hmm. 10 11 Q. Am I right that your contract included guidelines 12 attached to it? 13 A. Guidelines attached to it in regards to the use of a 14 vehicle and other - whether guidelines in regards to the 15 apartment was there or not, I can't remember, I have never 16 used the State President's room in the hotel, so I didn't - 17 I can't recognise whether that was there or not. 18 19 Q. But am I right that the guidelines - the 2010 20 document - were in the process of being changed and 21 tightened up during the time that you were President? 22 A. Correct, yes. 23 24 Q. On 25 November 2014, which was the day Mr Rowe 25 resigned, did you have a meeting with him that morning? 26 A. Yes. Do you want the full sequence of events? 27 28 Q. Yes, that would be helpful. 29 A. Okay. I had a meeting at - Anzac Day 2014, I was the 30 Chairman of the Anzac Day March Committee and we put 31 through a process by which we encouraged younger members of 32 the ex-service community to march. It was highly 33 successful. We had about 500-600 young members, many not 34 in the RSL. I had a meeting at 9 o'clock on 25 November to 35 speak to Mr Perrin and Mr Rowe as to how we could step 36 forward on that, particularly given comments made at that 37 time about a welcome-home parade for younger veterans and 38 how we could be involved. 39 40 I left the meeting. I asked Mr Rowe if he'd like a 41 cup of coffee. He said no, he had meetings to attend to. 42 I returned to the memorial park near my sub-branch to look 43 at a problem there and then I went home. I got home about 44 12.45. I was just having a cup of coffee and Mr Rowe 45 phoned me to tell me he'd resigned and I asked him why - 46 can I say exactly what he said? 47 .28/09/2017 (16) 1761 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 Q. Please do. 2 A. He said, "I'm sick and tired of that big bastard". I 3 asked him to wait until I would come back into town and he 4 said no, he was going home. An hour later I got a phone 5 call from Mr White advising me that Mr Rowe had resigned 6 due to ill health. I had no reason to question that, 7 because I'd lectured Mr Rowe on a number of occasions about 8 his problems with his legs, and he was very much 9 overweight, so I had no issue with that. I phoned - either 10 I phoned him or he phoned me that night. I asked could he 11 reconsider, given that Anzac Day was important for us, and 12 that he should - we would cover - the Vice-President would 13 cover some of those matters that he couldn't. 14 15 I phoned him the next morning and I spoke to his wife 16 to see if he was all right. She said yes, he was okay. I 17 think I spoke to her for about 20 seconds and that was it. 18 I haven't seen Mr Rowe or spoken to Mr Rowe until I saw him 19 at the hearing. 20 21 Q. So you had a meeting with him I think at about 22 9 o'clock on the 25th? 23 A. Yes. 24 25 Q. And that was in Anzac House? 26 A. Mmm-hmm. 27 28 Q. In his office? 29 A. Yes. 30 31 Q. And then after that - what sort of time did that 32 finish? 33 A. I think I was out of there by about 10 o'clock. I'd 34 left. There were other people waiting outside to see him 35 and I -- - 36 37 Q. Who did you see waiting? 38 A. I only saw the PA. The other people who were there 39 were inside the small office on the left-hand side. I 40 didn't notice who they were. 41 42 Q. And his PA being? 43 A. Her name was Judy Smith. 44 45 Q. You then went, did you say, to Granville; is that 46 right? 47 A. Yes. Our memorial park is right near Granville. We'd .28/09/2017 (16) 1762 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 had some issues regarding rubbish being there and I went to 2 check on the memorial itself. It appeared to be okay. I 3 just cleaned up a little bit, and then hopped in the car 4 and went home. 5 6 Q. Am I right that, at least up until then, Mr Rowe was a 7 friend of yours? 8 A. I've known - I probably knew Mr Rowe longer than most 9 of the others on State Council, yes. A friend - he's a 10 colleague and I got on pretty well with him, yes. 11 12 Q. I think, as you'd said, you'd had conversations with 13 him about his health from time to time; correct? 14 A. The standard joke on State Council, given that I've 15 had four knee operations, I was the most unhealthy State 16 Councillor, Vice-President, so I lectured him and said, 17 "The same thing will happen to you if you don't lose a bit 18 of weight." 19 20 Q. Am I right that at the meeting on the morning of the 21 25th, Mr Rowe didn't suggest to you that he was thinking of 22 resigning, did he? 23 A. No. 24 25 Q. And, indeed, if he had been going to resign, you would 26 have expected him to give notice; correct? 27 A. Well, as a senior Vice-President, I would have 28 expected he would have at least spoken to me of his 29 intention and the same as anyone else. I would have 30 thought that they would have at least said to me, "Okay, 31 John" - given that I was going to be the acting - when he 32 stood down, I was going to be the Acting State President, I 33 would have expected him to do that, but he didn't do that. 34 35 Q. Not only you would have expected him to have told you, 36 but if he was going to leave, you wouldn't expect him 37 simply to announce one day "I'm leaving" and to walk out 38 the door; you would have expected him to say, "Well, I'm 39 going to leave in, let's say, two weeks or four weeks"; 40 correct? 41 A. He's that type of person, correct, yes. 42 43 Q. You would have expected him to have some form of 44 farewell to staff; correct? 45 A. Yes, he was well liked by the staff. 46 47 Q. And some form of farewell to the members of .28/09/2017 (16) 1763 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 State Council; correct? 2 A. Correct, yes. 3 4 Q. So, when you found out that he resigned that day, that 5 must have seemed odd to you? 6 A. I was shocked. I'd only spoken to him an hour or so 7 earlier. I couldn't believe it. 8 9 Q. And when you spoke to him and he said that he had had 10 enough, you understood him to be referring to Mr White; 11 correct? Come on, Mr Haines -- 12 A. He's the largest person on State Council, so I assumed 13 that was the -- - 14 15 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. The "big bastard", you thought that 16 was Mr White? 17 A. Yes. 18 19 MR CHESHIRE: Q. You were aware, weren't you that there 20 was some ill feeling between Mr Rowe and Mr White; correct? 21 A. Yes, I do. I could understand ill feeling between 22 Mr White and myself, but I found it strange there was ill 23 feeling between Mr Rowe and Mr White. Mr Rowe is an easy 24 person to get on with. 25 26 Q. But Mr Rowe had beaten Mr White in the last election, 27 hadn't he? 28 A. Yes, that's correct. 29 30 Q. Your understanding was that Mr White was resentful 31 about the fact that he'd lost that election; correct? 32 A. Things were very cool from that time on, yes. 33 34 Q. And you understood that was because Mr White had lost 35 the election; correct? 36 A. By only a few votes. 37 38 Q. You understood that's why there was the ill will 39 between them; correct? 40 A. Yes. 41 42 Q. But when Mr Rowe told you that he'd had enough of 43 Mr White, you simply took him at his word; correct? 44 A. Correct, yes. 45 46 Q. And when Mr White told you that he'd resigned because 47 of ill health, you took Mr White, at that stage, at his .28/09/2017 (16) 1764 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 word; correct? 2 A. I accepted that, yes. 3 4 Q. Do you recall that there were then State Council 5 meetings in December 2014, January 2015 and February 2015? 6 A. Yes. 7 8 Q. And the meeting in December 2014 - you attended that 9 meeting; correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 12 Q. Between 25 November and that State Council meeting in 13 December, did you have any discussions with anybody about 14 Mr Rowe's departure or his expenses, or anything about 15 Mr Rowe? 16 A. Not that I - not that I can recall, because, as 17 I said, I questioned him constantly about his health and 18 I honestly believed that's the reason why. There are other 19 issues there, and as we realised later on, it was being 20 drip-fed. I didn't have that information. So I can't 21 recall. If I did, I'd spoken about him as a 22 State President to a State Councillor. 23 24 Q. Indeed, you then became Acting State President on 25 25 November, when Mr Rowe left? 26 A. That's right, when he handed over, yes. 27 28 Q. Was that effectively an automatic succession for you 29 to be acting? 30 A. I was the senior Vice-President by far, so it was just 31 automatic that I would take that position. 32 33 Q. Was there any need for somebody to tell you, "You are 34 now the Acting State President", or did it just happen? 35 A. Mr Rowe told me. 36 37 Q. So Mr Rowe, when he said, "I'm leaving", said, "You're 38 now" -- 39 A. "It's all yours". 40 41 Q. Did you then come into Anzac House more during that 42 period after Mr Rowe left? 43 A. If I remember rightly, I was in town the next day to - 44 after I'd spoken to Mr Rowe in the morning, to see if there 45 were any issues that needed looking at immediately. I was 46 only there for an hour or two, I think, and then I went 47 home. .28/09/2017 (16) 1765 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 2 Q. Then presumably between that time and the December 3 Council meeting, you had more dealings with staff; correct? 4 A. Yes, that's correct. 5 6 Q. Did you hear any rumours or suggestions in that time 7 that Mr Rowe had had some problem with his expenses? 8 A. Not from staff, no, I hadn't, but it wasn't long 9 before - it wasn't long before in the sub-branch world, we 10 started hearing or being asked different questions. 11 12 Q. When you say "in the sub-branch world", do you mean in 13 your Granville sub-branch? 14 A. No, no. If I attended a meeting or if I attended a 15 service or a function, there was so much confusion as to 16 the reason why Mr Rowe left. It was becoming - given that 17 we didn't have a lot of information, it was becoming very 18 difficult to talk to some of the sub-branch members. 19 20 Q. Am I right that, effectively, what was being said to 21 you by members of sub-branch was, "Well, there must be more 22 to it than meets the eye"? 23 A. "What's the real reason?", yes. 24 25 Q. And did people in that context say, "Was he diddling 26 his expenses", or words to that effect? 27 A. No, they didn't say that. They just wanted to know 28 why did he leave so suddenly, when they hadn't - he'd been 29 to meetings and functions and hadn't mentioned it. 30 31 Q. Then when you attended the State Council meeting, 32 which I think went between 10 and 12 December or 11 and 33 12 December 2014, you found out the real reason why he 34 left, didn't? 35 A. We were drip-fed information in regards to the real 36 reason, from then on until, I think, February, yes. 37 38 Q. When you say drip-fed: That was by Mr White; correct? 39 A. Correct. 40 41 Q. In December, at the December meeting, Mr White told 42 you that Mr Rowe had left because Mr White had given him an 43 ultimatum to have his expenses audited or leave; correct? 44 A. I believe that was the meeting, yes. 45 46 Q. If it wasn't that meeting, it most certainly was the 47 January meeting? .28/09/2017 (16) 1766 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 A. The January meeting, yes. 2 3 Q. You recall that Grant Thornton were instructed to do 4 an audit in respect of Mr Rowe's expenses? 5 A. Correct, yes. 6 7 Q. By that time, you were no longer Acting 8 State President? 9 A. That's right. 10 11 Q. I'll come back to that, but did you have any 12 involvement in the process by which Grant Thornton came to 13 be instructed to do their audit? 14 A. No, no. 15 16 Q. Sorry? 17 A. Not that I can recall, no. 18 19 Q. Then going back to the December meeting, there was, as 20 I understand it, some discussion about the issue of 21 Mr Rowe's expenses; correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 24 Q. And that was in the context, at least, in relation to 25 the issue of the mobile phones; correct? 26 A. He had - he had his mobile phone and we were told that 27 there were expenses in regards to a number of other mobile 28 phones at the same time. 29 30 Q. I think you were told that that was for other members 31 of his family; correct? 32 A. For his family, yes. 33 34 Q. And at that time, were you also told that there were 35 other issues or potential issues with his expenses? 36 A. We were told - they weren't clarified, but we were 37 told that there were other issues in regards to his 38 expenses. 39 40 Q. Was the Hyde Park Inn accommodation mentioned? 41 A. If it was, it wasn't an issue with me, because I'd 42 been aware that for some years the Hyde Park Inn - there 43 was a room at the Hyde Park Inn available to the 44 State Presidents. I thought it was only for those who were 45 from the country, I wasn't sure. So, as far as the use of 46 a room at the Hyde Park Inn, that wasn't a major 47 consideration for me. .28/09/2017 (16) 1767 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 2 Q. Were you aware that Mr Rowe's son was living in the 3 apartment? 4 A. No, I wasn't, no. 5 6 Q. Was that discussed at any of those three meetings, to 7 your recollection? 8 A. No, not that I can recall, no. 9 10 Q. Was it discussed about flights being paid for by the 11 RSL for other members of Mr Rowe's family? 12 A. No. 13 14 Q. Cash withdrawals - they were mentioned, weren't they? 15 A. Only lightly. 16 17 Q. All right, I'll come back to that. In the December 18 meeting, it's right, isn't it, that in addition to 19 discussion about Mr Rowe's expenses, there was a discussion 20 about your position; correct? 21 A. As regards to? 22 23 Q. In relation to whether you should continue as Acting 24 State President; correct? 25 A. That's correct. It resolved around my - or revolved 26 around my position as President of the Granville RSL 27 sub-branch. 28 29 Q. And about an allegation that you were improperly 30 taking an honorarium; correct? 31 A. That's correct. It said "honorarium". I objected to 32 the use of "honorarium". 33 34 Q. When you said, "It said 'honorarium'", what do you 35 mean by that? 36 A. Comments made at the meeting. 37 38 Q. Who was it that raised this issue at that meeting? 39 A. I'm not altogether sure who it was, but Mr White had a 40 lot to say in regards to the position. 41 42 Q. Effectively, am I right that the discussion commenced 43 with issues about Mr Rowe and then, in that context, people 44 were saying, "Well, if Mr Rowe has done the wrong thing, 45 how could this have happened?" Is that correct? 46 A. That's correct, yes. 47 .28/09/2017 (16) 1768 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 Q. People were, as it were, pointing the finger at 2 Mr White, saying, "You were Treasurer. You shouldn't have 3 allowed this to happen"; is that right? 4 A. It shouldn't have been allowed to have happened and we 5 should have been kept informed if it had been going on for 6 some time, which we thought he was aware of and therefore 7 he should have been - if he wasn't happy with advising me, 8 he should have spoken to the other Vice-Presidents who he 9 got on with a lot better than what he got on with me. 10 11 Q. Also, Mr White shouldn't have taken it upon himself 12 to make the decision about what should happen to Mr Rowe on 13 25 November; correct? 14 A. That's right, yes. Correct. 15 16 Q. So that was discussed in the December meeting? 17 A. Yes. 18 19 Q. Was it in that context, or was it a completely 20 different context that the issue of your honorarium was 21 raised? 22 A. During the discussion it was pointed out that whilst 23 I was representing Mr Rowe in Perth during the World War I 24 commemorations, by a coincidence - a strange coincidence - 25 the audit was undertaken on my sub-branch, and I didn't 26 know that until I came back, and then I was advised that 27 the audit had taken place and that there were some 28 deficiencies in the audit. 29 30 Q. Was that something, though, that you raised? 31 A. No, it was raised with me because it was unusual for a 32 sub-branch audit, in that context, to be raised at 33 State Council. That was usually dealt with by the 34 compliance department and if there was an issue, then after 35 those items hadn't been rectified, it would come to 36 State Council. 37 38 Q. With that being raised, am I right that you are not 39 sure exactly who first mentioned it, but Mr White was vocal 40 in relation to that issue? 41 A. Mr White was very vocal because he would have been 42 made aware - he would have been made aware of the audit 43 after he came back from Perth, so he was - I believe he was 44 made aware of it through the State Secretary of the audit, 45 from Mr Boyle. 46 47 Q. I have asked you about the relationship between .28/09/2017 (16) 1769 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 Mr White and Mr Rowe. Am I right that, even before this 2 meeting, you did not have a good relationship with 3 Mr White? 4 A. We had a difference of opinion on a number of 5 occasions, yes. 6 7 Q. In particular around that time, what was the main 8 issue between you? 9 A. I didn't - I objected to the way that he would speak 10 to other members of State Council. I thought he was - he 11 could be very abrupt and I believed that we were all part 12 of one team and that we didn't - that the State Councillors 13 should not expect to come to a meeting and be spoken to the 14 way he used to speak to them, and we had a difference of 15 opinion. 16 17 Q. Just to try and clarify, with the meeting in December, 18 the two issues of Mr Rowe's expenses and your honorarium, 19 which one was discussed first? 20 A. Mr Rowe briefly and then it moved over to my - it 21 appeared that the out-of-pocket expenses audit at Granville 22 took precedence over any other issues that were there. 23 24 Q. Am I right that, effectively, Mr Rowe's expenses issue 25 was raised and discussed and then, at some stage, somebody 26 diverted it towards the Granville honorarium; is that a 27 fair way of describing it? 28 A. Correct, correct. 29 30 Q. From what you've said, was it your impression that 31 this was Mr White diverting it away from Mr Rowe towards 32 you? 33 A. To be quite blunt, yes, and I think it was a good way 34 of pursuing it to the point where he would - that I would 35 be asked to leave or resign from State Council. 36 37 Q. Did you form the impression that he was, as it were, 38 diverting it away from himself when the criticisms were 39 made and pointed at him about Mr Rowe's expenses? 40 A. Of course, yes. 41 42 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. Not just as Acting President, but 43 resign altogether from State Council; is that what you 44 said? 45 A. That was the impression I got. I was - I suppose, as 46 other members said, I was in his way of becoming eventually 47 State President. .28/09/2017 (16) 1770 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 2 MR CHESHIRE: Q. You did bow to the pressure; is that 3 correct? 4 A. I stood aside from the position of Acting 5 State President, and Mr Stephenson took my place. 6 7 Q. Just dealing with that in stages, was it your view 8 that in relation to Granville, you'd done the wrong thing, 9 so you had to step aside? 10 A. No. I felt that it was causing issues that it 11 shouldn't have caused and those should have been dealt with 12 by Mr Boyle in the compliance department which, as I said, 13 it was the only sub-branch I've known in the time I've been 14 there that an issue such as this was brought to the 15 attention of State Council - only to State Council after 16 the sub-branch had been warned and hadn't corrected some of 17 the issues. So I was offended by the fact that my position 18 as State Vice-President was being used to embarrass my 19 sub-branch. 20 21 Q. Just to be clear on this, in relation to the 22 honorarium issue in Granville, what was the position? Were 23 you receiving an honorarium? 24 A. No. 25 26 Q. What were you receiving? 27 A. I received out-of-pocket expenses in regards to 28 carrying out my duties as the Sub-Branch President, the 29 Pension and Welfare Officer and also Bereavement Officer. 30 31 Q. So any payments that you received, to your 32 understanding, were payments for justifiable and justified 33 expenses; is that right? 34 A. Carrying out my duties, and I submitted those receipts 35 from time to time, every two or three weeks, collated by 36 the Treasurer, or the Secretary/Treasurer. 37 38 Q. Were you getting, in fact, a set sum each month? 39 A. The sum identified is up to $50 per week. 40 41 Q. Were you receiving $200 a month? 42 A. I was receiving up to $200 a month, depending on the 43 receipts that I received. However, there was - there was 44 never a month that I received less than $200, because 45 I spent more than $200. 46 47 Q. May I just see if I have this right. If your expenses .28/09/2017 (16) 1771 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 in a given month were, let's say, $500, you would put all 2 of your receipts in, but you would still receive only $200; 3 is that right? 4 A. That's correct. If I - I would only receive the $200, 5 irrespective of how much I spent carrying out my duties. 6 7 Q. But if you only spent $50 on your expenses, how much 8 would you -- 9 A. For the month? 10 11 Q. For the month. How much would you receive? 12 A. I never spent $50 a month. I always spent more than 13 50. I would spend about $70 a week. 14 15 Q. Anybody looking at the figures might think that you 16 were being paid the same amount every month as an 17 honorarium fee, whereas in fact you say that it was because 18 all of your expenses exceeded that sum; is that right? 19 A. That may appear to some, but when it was explained to 20 Mr Boyle, Mr Boyle agreed that that was a fair comment, 21 that I would only receive no more than $200 a month, which, 22 over 12 months, worked out at $48.14 a week. 23 24 Q. At the end of the investigation, or the discussions 25 that you had within RSL (NSW), what happened with the 26 issue? Was there any formal resolution? 27 A. Yes. Following the comments at the State Branch, 28 I resigned as State President of - sorry, as the President 29 of the sub-branch. The senior Vice-President refused to 30 take the position and the next Vice-President did. We went 31 through a process - or he and the Secretary/Treasurer and 32 the Vice-President went through a process where we 33 corrected the issues as identified by Mr Boyle. They were 34 given to Mr Boyle, and I was asked to deliver those to 35 Mr Boyle and answer any questions that he may want. He 36 didn't. We were then advised that the second audit had 37 cleared Granville RSL sub-branch in regards to those 38 issues. 39 40 Q. Was there any formal resolution at State Council level 41 of which you are aware? 42 A. I believe there was. I haven't got the minutes, but I 43 believe that we received the audit report setting out how 44 we'd gone about correcting some of the problems and that 45 went to, I believe, State Council, if I can recall, and it 46 was agreed that we would accept that. 47 .28/09/2017 (16) 1772 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 Q. On State Council, did you sit on the vote on 2 State Council on that issue? 3 A. On that day? I believe I did stay at that meeting, 4 yes. 5 6 Q. But if you did, you would recognise that now as a 7 conflict of interest, wouldn't you? 8 A. I would imagine that would be seen by some. I 9 believe, though, that it was to keep me there to answer 10 further questions in regards to the document itself. 11 12 Q. To your recollection, was there a formal reprimand or 13 criticism made in the motion of you? 14 A. Not that I can recall of me. As I said, I pointed out 15 that it was a sub-branch matter. If they wished to 16 criticise me as the Sub-Branch President, there's a process 17 to go through, but I don't think it should have been 18 accompanied by criticism of me as the State Vice-President. 19 20 Q. You said there were issues identified that needed to 21 be corrected. What were those issues? 22 A. Our trustees meeting - the meeting of the trustees was 23 held during a sub-branch executive meeting. They should 24 have been held, at least two a year, separately, which - we 25 do that now; a better understanding of how we can set out 26 the expenses and who is identified as receiving expenses; 27 the issues in regards to our accommodation at the club, in 28 which we are situated - there were just three of them. 29 There were two others, I can't recall. 30 31 Q. So you stepped down because of this issue; correct? 32 A. I felt that it would embarrass - that people would use 33 it to embarrass the sub-branch, and I didn't want that to 34 happen. 35 36 Q. But you felt that it was sufficient for you to step 37 down as Acting State President; correct? 38 A. Correct. 39 40 Q. You didn't step down as a Vice-President or member of 41 State Council; correct? 42 A. No. 43 44 Q. That's right, isn't it? 45 A. That's right, yes. 46 47 Q. How did Mr Stephenson then come to be appointed in .28/09/2017 (16) 1773 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 your stead? 2 A. If I remember rightly, at the meeting there was an 3 election amongst State Councillors, given that there was a 4 gap between my seniority and the other two Vice-Presidents, 5 and, if I recall, I nominated, or someone nominated 6 Mr Toussaint because he'd been a State Councillor 7 previously, so his long service, or his service should be 8 acknowledged. However, a vote was taken and Mr Stephenson 9 was elected. 10 11 Q. At that time, Mr Stephenson was a Vice-President; is 12 that correct? 13 A. He was Vice-President Northern Country. 14 15 Q. Given what you've said about Mr White, as you 16 understand it, being disappointed that Mr Rowe had beaten 17 him in the election, was Mr White entitled to stand against 18 Mr Stephenson and Mr Toussaint? 19 A. He'd have to relinquish his position as Treasurer, the 20 State Treasurer, but he could have; he could have done that 21 if he wanted to. 22 23 Q. But if he'd relinquished his position to stand and had 24 then not been elected, would there then have had to have 25 been another election for State Treasurer? 26 A. For Treasurer. 27 28 Q. Was there any indication from Mr White as to whether 29 he wanted to stand or any reason as to why he wasn't 30 standing? 31 A. Not that I could recall. I never, ever thought that 32 he would nominate in any case - no, not that I can recall. 33 If would have been - I just wouldn't - I wouldn't believe 34 that he would do it, to be honest with you. 35 36 Q. Was that because of him having to relinquish the 37 position as State Treasurer? 38 A. Well, the State Treasurer is a very important role. 39 It's one of the most senior roles we have there outside of 40 the Vice-President State Councillors, even though it is not 41 senior to the Vice-Presidents. The Vice-Presidents are 42 senior to the Treasurer, or the State Treasurer. So I 43 believe he was comfortable in that role and obviously 44 possibly thinking about the future. Whereas if things 45 didn't work out the way that they all thought it would 46 work, I would revert back to being Acting State President. 47 So I never, ever thought that he would stand. .28/09/2017 (16) 1774 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 2 Q. So the Vice-Presidents, Mr Stephenson and 3 Mr Toussaint, Mr Toussaint didn't succeed but he remained 4 as a Vice-President; is that correct? 5 A. Yes, correct. 6 7 Q. He didn't need to be re-elected to that position? 8 A. No, no. 9 10 Q. There were then meetings on 27 January and 27 February 11 of 2015 of State Council? 12 A. Mmm-hmm. 13 14 Q. Did you have any involvement in relation to Mr Rowe 15 and his expenses at all to your recollection between the 16 December meeting and the January meeting? 17 A. In identifying, or in discussion? 18 19 Q. At all? 20 A. There was general discussion, because we started 21 receiving information in regards to some of the issues in 22 regards to Mr Rowe's expenses. 23 24 Q. When you say "receiving information", do you mean 25 things such as the Grant Thornton report? 26 A. The Grant Thornton report and what was in the report 27 itself, yes. 28 29 Q. So were there discussions, were there, between State 30 Councillors or members of State Council about the Grant 31 Thornton report? 32 A. And the process under which we would proceed, yes. 33 34 Q. Did you read that report? 35 A. Yes. I read the report. 36 37 Q. It must have given you great concern when you read the 38 report? 39 A. Yes, it did. It was a - it was disappointing, 40 particularly for me. I felt that I'd been there - Mr Rowe, 41 I think, was there two years before I arrived there and I 42 think there was six years between me and the next State 43 Councillor. I was just disappointed that I hadn't been 44 kept informed. If this issue had have arisen prior to 45 25 November, I was saddened by the fact that it was kept 46 either in-house or by one or two other people without 47 others being advised. .28/09/2017 (16) 1775 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 2 Q. You remained on the State Executive after 3 relinquishing your position as Acting State President; is 4 that right? 5 A. Yes, as Vice-President. 6 7 Q. When you relinquished the position, you went back to 8 Vice-President Metropolitan? 9 A. Just an ordinary State Vice-President, yes. 10 11 Q. Am I right, then, that you attended a State Executive 12 meeting on 22 December - do you recall that? 13 A. I didn't miss too many meetings, so I assume I was 14 there. 15 16 Q. Let me show you Exhibit 10, Volume 1, page 108. You 17 should have there some in-committee minutes; do you have 18 that? 19 A. I have that. 20 21 Q. Do you see that's RSL.21.0000275? 22 A. Correct. 23 24 Q. Do you see that this was an extraordinary State 25 Executive meeting on 22 December? 26 A. Yes. 27 28 Q. Do you see that there was a resolution for terms of 29 review? 30 A. Yes. 31 32 Q. And various terms were adopted for that. Do you see 33 that Mr White was recorded as leaving the room? Do you see 34 that? 35 A. Yes, I see that. 36 37 Q. Why did Mr White leave the room? 38 A. To be honest, I can't recall why he left the room. 39 40 Q. Do you see that it refers to an email from 41 Mr Cannings? Do you see that? 42 A. Yes. 43 44 Q. If you turn back to page 104, KM.02.0000080, you 45 should see an email with "Judy Smith" written at the top; 46 do you see that? 47 .28/09/2017 (16) 1776 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 PUBLIC INQUIRER: No, he doesn't see that. He sees an 2 email from John Cannings, but "Judy Smith" is right at the 3 top on the left-hand side. 4 5 THE WITNESS: I see, yes. 6 7 MR CHESHIRE: Q. You see that's the email from 8 Mr Cannings of 21 December; do you see that? 9 A. Yes. 10 11 Q. Do you remember discussing this email at that meeting? 12 A. No, I can't recall. 13 14 Q. Do you recall that Grant Thornton were the auditors of 15 RSL (NSW)? 16 A. Yes. 17 18 Q. Do you remember a discussion about who should be used 19 to perform the audit of Mr Rowe's expenses? 20 A. The discussion centred on whether we should use Grant 21 Thornton, given that Grant Thornton is our auditors. 22 23 Q. Yes - you remember that discussion? 24 A. Yes. 25 26 Q. What was the reason, then, for using Grant Thornton? 27 A. It was felt that Grant Thornton would have all the 28 information that would be required in regards to carrying 29 out a further audit, other than the ordinary audit. We 30 accepted that that would be the case and they were advised 31 that they would carry out the audit, as requested by State 32 Branch. 33 34 Q. As you say, Grant Thornton were carrying out their 35 ordinary audit at the time? 36 A. An audit, yes. Yes, I remember that. 37 38 Q. This audit was for an almost identical period, but it 39 was a one-year audit going back to 25 November 2013? 40 A. Yes. 41 42 Q. Whereas the ordinary audit was from 1 January 2014? 43 A. Yes. 44 45 Q. Was the fact that there was then a potential saving of 46 time and money in using the auditors to perform this task, 47 a consideration? .28/09/2017 (16) 1777 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 A. It would be part of the consideration. There was 2 also - at that time we started, the suggestion was that it 3 should be more than - the audit should be more than one 4 year, and that there was a discussion by State Councillors 5 in regards to what further - what we would look at further 6 and how we could identify any of those problems with one 7 year. So there were a number of issues that were 8 discussed. 9 10 Q. What was the reason - dealing with it in turn, given 11 that Grant Thornton were carrying out the ordinary audit, 12 would it not have been better to get in somebody 13 independent to look at this issue? 14 A. Looking back on it now, yes, it's obvious; we should 15 have got an independent person, someone outside of the 16 mainstream auditing of our books. 17 18 Q. Are you able to explain why, or was that obvious to 19 you at the time? 20 A. No. It wasn't at the time. We were assured that 21 Grant Thornton would not be the department that we deal 22 with, it would be a separate part of Grant Thornton that 23 would carry out the audit. 24 25 Q. When you say "assured", who was it that was giving you 26 that assurance? 27 A. I can't recall who it was, but we were - it just came 28 out in general discussion, the comment was made, "Why are 29 we going to Grant Thornton when they perform our normal 30 audit?" And we were assured that that wouldn't be the 31 case, that it would be someone entirely different. 32 33 Q. Do you recall that the in-committee minutes refer to 34 an email from Mr Cannings being discussed? 35 A. Mmm-hmm. 36 37 Q. Are you able to assist whether Mr Cannings was at that 38 meeting on 22 December? 39 A. I can't recall whether Mr Cannings was there or not, 40 no. I'm sorry. 41 42 Q. I'm trying to, if we can, see if you can recollect who 43 it was that was effectively pushing for Grant Thornton to 44 perform the audit? 45 A. Well, obviously we would have been looking for someone 46 who would be responsible to, on the day-to-day basis, any 47 information that came back from Grant Thornton. I would .28/09/2017 (16) 1778 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 have assumed it would have been the Acting State President, 2 I assumed it would have been the Chief Financial Officer or 3 the Treasurer. 4 5 Q. But you have no recollection now -- 6 A. No, I can't, I'm sorry. No, I can't. 7 8 Q. At this stage, it's only before the State Executive, 9 so are you able to assist as to why it then was being 10 limited to one year rather than longer? 11 A. I suppose the timeframe, even though a number of 12 State Councillors had voiced their concern prior to that, 13 that one year was too short, and a number of options were 14 considered. 15 16 Q. Again, are you able to assist as to who it was who was 17 pushing for it to be limited to one year rather than 18 longer? 19 A. No, I didn't - I suggested three years because the 20 information that I'd received from those who were involved 21 in auditing said three years will indicate a trend and one 22 year won't. You can work on an annual report under one 23 year. So I thought three years, but that wasn't acceptable 24 either, so I can't recall who voted one way or the other. 25 26 Q. Were you vocal for pushing for three years or was it 27 just a discussion and a passing comment? 28 A. Well, I voiced my concern that one year wasn't 29 sufficient. I thought seven years would be difficult. If 30 we went for three years, and a report came back indicating 31 that there were some issues that could be picked up 32 further, we could then come back and either have a five or 33 seven-year audit rather than a three. No, i wasn't - I 34 accepted the decision of the members, of the 35 State Councillors, when I didn't get my way. I just 36 accepted that's part of the system we've got. 37 38 Q. Are you able to assist, in relation to page 108, which 39 are the in-committee minutes, was that resolution unanimous 40 or did some people vote against it? 41 A. I can't recall. If they voted against it, they 42 certainly didn't ask that their name be identified. They 43 probably accepted, the same as I did, that if you make a 44 point and you put a proposal forward and it's not carried, 45 you accept the majority decision. That's basically, I 46 believe, what we did. 47 .28/09/2017 (16) 1779 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 Q. It's right, isn't it, that the minutes generally of 2 RSL (NSW) did not record if there was any dissent in the 3 resolution? 4 A. That's correct. 5 6 Q. Going back to page 104, Mr Cannings's email, at the 7 bottom of that, if you then turn over to page 105, do you 8 see at the top, "It should be noted"? Do you see that? 9 A. Mmm-hmm. 10 11 Q. If you would read, just to yourself, down to number 4. 12 Do you see number 4? 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. Just read that first bit down to the number 4 to 16 yourself. 17 A. Yes. 18 19 Q. Do you recall any discussion about that at the meeting 20 on 22 December? 21 A. No, I can't remember any discussions, although it 22 would have - I think it's - I think the comment was raised 23 if, in actual fact, it was an audit, why would the State 24 Treasurer not be part of the process in deciding or being 25 part of the process in regards to the audit? But that -- 26 27 Q. What I'm asking is, though, why was an instruction 28 going to be given to the auditors not to determine whether 29 a disciplinary offence has occurred? 30 A. Yes. I don't know. 31 32 Q. It would seem sensible, wouldn't it, not only to find 33 out from a financial point of view what's happened to all 34 the money, but to have a view expressed by auditors as to 35 whether Mr Rowe had, in fact, committed some form of 36 disciplinary offence; correct? 37 A. Yes. Yes, correct. 38 39 Q. Can you then explain why that was given? 40 A. No, I can't, I'm sorry. 41 42 Q. Do you recall then that shortly prior to the meeting 43 on 27 January, you received a report from Grant Thornton; 44 correct? 45 A. I can't recall the report, but, yes, I accept that. 46 47 Q. If I show you page 125 -- .28/09/2017 (16) 1780 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 2 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. Just before you do that, you were 3 asked whether - Mr Haines, don't go there. 4 A. Okay. 5 6 Q. You were asked why Mr White left the room. Do you 7 remember that? 8 A. Mmm-hmm. 9 10 Q. Have a look at page 105. Do you see that third-last 11 paragraph: 12 13 I would also recommend ... 14 15 Do you see that? 16 A. Yes. 17 18 Q. And the last sentence? 19 A. That's correct. 20 21 Q. 22 ... then be asked to absent himself from 23 the [room]. 24 25 Do you see that? 26 A. Yes. 27 28 Q. So it's probable that the reason Mr White went out of 29 the room was in accordance with the advice given by the 30 State Council's Honorary Legal Adviser? 31 A. Mr Cannings, yes. 32 33 Q. Just going back to 104, do you see there that 34 Mr Cannings referred to a meeting the previous Friday with 35 Mr Cowdroy, Mr White, Mr Cannings and himself - Mr Cannings 36 and Mr Stephenson, I'm sorry. And then there is the 37 reference that Mr Cowdroy and Mr Cannings had a separate 38 consideration where they said that the matter should be 39 treated confidential whilst the review was undertaken; do 40 you see that? 41 A. That's correct, yes. 42 43 Q. Do you recall any discussion about that? 44 A. No, we just accepted that as part of the legal 45 process. 46 47 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Obligations, all right. Sorry to .28/09/2017 (16) 1781 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 interrupt. 125. 2 3 MR CHESHIRE: Thank you, Madam Inquirer. 4 5 Q. Do you see there the Grant Thornton review? 6 A. I'm still catching up. 7 8 Q. KM.02.0000086. 9 A. 125, the Expense Payment Review? 10 11 Q. Yes. Do you recognise this as the Grant Thornton 12 report? 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. You recall, do you, receiving a report in this format 16 that you see, for instance, on pages 127, 128 and 17 following? 18 A. Yes. 19 20 Q. You recall that, Mr Haines? 21 A. Yes. 22 23 Q. Are you then able to assist, if you go forward to 24 page 159 -- 25 A. Appendix C, yes. 26 27 Q. -- and if you then turn over to page 160 - so this is 28 an appendix to the report - do you see a list of various 29 transactions? 30 A. Yes. 31 32 Q. Are you able to assist, did you receive a copy of this 33 appendix with the report? 34 A. No, I can't recall seeing this. 35 36 Q. Do you recall ever seeing this before? 37 A. No. 38 39 Q. If you then go back to page 155. 40 A. Yes. 41 42 Q. Do you see there a document headed "State Presidential 43 Expense Guidelines"; do you see that? 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. Do you recognise the handwriting at the top as 47 Mr White's; correct? .28/09/2017 (16) 1782 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 A. Correct. 2 3 Q. The handwriting at the bottom, whose is that? 4 A. I can't identify that. 5 6 Q. Are you able to assist, was this the document that was 7 before you at the meeting on 27 January? 8 A. If I can recall, yes. 9 10 Q. Did the version that you had at that meeting have 11 Mr White's handwriting on it? 12 A. Not that I can recall. 13 14 Q. Do you remember discussion at that meeting, on 15 27 January 2015, about whether in fact these guidelines 16 were in force? 17 A. Enforced? 18 19 Q. Yes. You recall a discussion about that? 20 A. Yes. 21 22 Q. You recall a suggestion by Mr White that Mr Rowe was 23 still considering the guidelines with the Vice-Presidents? 24 Do you remember that suggestion? 25 A. With a Vice-President. 26 27 Q. Or a Vice-President. 28 A. Yes, it wasn't me. Yes, a Vice-President. 29 30 Q. Was that identified, who that Vice-President was? 31 A. No, it wasn't. It wasn't with me, but then I wouldn't 32 have had the expenses of the two country Vice-Presidents. 33 So I assumed it was a country Vice-President. Most likely 34 Mr Stephenson. He comes from that area. 35 36 Q. Are you able to assist - this document before you, is 37 this the document that you understood had been approved by 38 State Council in November 2010? 39 A. Yes. This is the one that was included. 40 41 Q. Have you ever seen a document for the State 42 Presidential Guidelines which had a space for Mr Rowe to 43 sign? Do you understand what I mean by that? 44 A. Yes, yes, I understand what you mean. No, I haven't 45 seen that one. I know the one after that, there was a 46 space there, yes. 47 .28/09/2017 (16) 1783 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 Q. When you say "the one after that", that's the one -- 2 A. Yes, the one that I received. 3 4 Q. The one that was brought in after Mr Rowe left? 5 A. Yes, the one I received, yes. 6 7 Q. So, before Mr Rowe left, are you aware of any other 8 version of this document that you see at 155? 9 A. No. 10 11 Q. You received this document prior to the meeting; is 12 that correct? 13 A. If I can recall, yes. 14 15 Q. Was that sent to you by email? Is that how -- 16 A. I may have received a hard copy rather than email. 17 I'm not sure. 18 19 Q. If I tell you the meeting was on 27 January and the 20 report is dated 23 January, it would seem more likely that 21 it was sent electronically; correct? 22 A. Electronically or when we arrived. 23 24 Q. Are you able to recall that you did have it in advance 25 of the meeting? 26 A. I believe I did. I looked over some of the issues in 27 regards to the clothing and also in regards to business 28 support resources. 29 30 Q. Is it right that documents generally were sent out in 31 advance of State Council meetings? 32 A. State Council meetings. 33 34 Q. And sent out by email, generally? 35 A. Yes. 36 37 Q. So at the meeting on 27 January, there was discussion 38 about the Grant Thornton report; correct? 39 A. Correct. 40 41 Q. Are you able to assist with this: you're aware that 42 there was then a meeting on 27 February? 43 A. Yes. 44 45 Q. At that meeting there was a resolution passed about 46 Mr Rowe's expenses? 47 A. That's right, yes. .28/09/2017 (16) 1784 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 2 Q. At that meeting, on 27 February, Mr Cannings attended 3 and gave some oral advice? 4 A. He gave some advice, yes. 5 6 Q. Are you able to assist with this: at the meeting on 7 27 January, did Mr Cannings attend that? 8 A. I don't think so. I can't recall him being there. 9 10 Q. What about Mr Doolan? 11 A. Mr Doolan in January? He did attend - I believe he 12 did attend in January. I believe that was after he'd 13 spoken to Mr Stephenson and Mr Stephenson invited him up to 14 Sydney. 15 16 Q. When you say "after he'd spoken to Mr Stephenson", 17 what's the basis on which you know that he'd spoken to 18 Mr Stephenson? 19 A. Some time prior to that - if I can recall, some time 20 prior to that meeting, Mr Stephenson spoke to me and asked 21 could I come in to see him. I said yes. He asked could we 22 go and have a cup of coffee away from Anzac House, which we 23 did. He said he'd spoken to Mr Doolan and Mr Doolan had 24 advised him to ask me to resign. I indicated to him that I 25 would not resign in regards to the audit at Granville. It 26 had nothing at that stage to do with State Council. I 27 asked him what the option was. He said that he would - 28 that I would be dismissed, and I just said, "Dismiss me". 29 I was not surprised that Mr Doolan arrived at a meeting 30 after that. I was just disappointed that Mr Stephenson had 31 taken it upon himself to go and see Mr Doolan in regards to 32 a matter that had nothing to do with the National Board. 33 It was purely a sub-branch matter. So I believe that was a 34 continuation of that. 35 36 Q. So Mr Doolan attended a meeting on 27 January. When 37 did you have this discussion with Mr Stephenson? 38 A. Oh, prior to that. I can't recall. 39 40 Q. Was it after Christmas? 41 A. It could have been around about then. I know he was 42 very hesitant about - it wouldn't have been over the 43 Christmas break. He was very hesitant about having a - he 44 didn't want it near Anzac House. I thought it was rather 45 strange that he wanted it away from Anzac House, but 46 because he's a smoker, we sat outside on the pavement 47 outside a cafe having a cup of coffee while he could have a .28/09/2017 (16) 1785 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 smoke. 2 3 Q. At this time, Mr Stephenson was the Acting 4 State President? 5 A. Acting State President. 6 7 Q. So this is after you stepped aside from the position? 8 A. That's correct. 9 10 Q. So likely some time early to mid-January? 11 A. I think it was - yeah, probably before then. 12 13 Q. And Mr Stephenson, did he tell you that he'd been to 14 see Mr Doolan or that he'd spoken to Mr Doolan? 15 A. No, he'd been to see him. He'd flown down to Canberra 16 to see Mr Doolan. 17 18 Q. He told you that Mr Doolan wanted you to resign? 19 A. He advised Mr Stephenson that I should resign. 20 21 Q. By that, you understood resign from State Council? 22 A. I assumed it was State Council, yes. 23 24 Q. Was there any discussion with Mr Stephenson at that 25 time about Mr Rowe? 26 A. That was the only subject we spoke to at that time, 27 yes. 28 29 Q. Sorry, which was the only subject? 30 A. My subject in regards to the -- 31 32 Q. The Granville issue? 33 A. Yes. 34 35 Q. So there was no discussion about Mr Rowe? 36 A. I can't recall that he'd spoken to me about Mr Rowe. 37 38 Q. Mr Stephenson didn't say whether he'd spoken to 39 Mr Doolan about Mr Rowe? 40 A. Not that I could recall, no. 41 42 Q. And Mr Doolan then attended the meeting on 27 January; 43 correct? 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. Did he address the meeting? 47 A. He spoke to the meeting, but there was some concern by .28/09/2017 (16) 1786 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 members that he wanted to chair the meeting and a number of 2 State Councillors objected to chairing the meeting. 3 4 Q. So we get the timing right, when you say he wanted to 5 chair the meeting and a number of State Councillors 6 objected, did that happen during the meeting or was that 7 before the -- 8 A. No, I think it was prior, because a number of them had 9 seen Mr Doolan prior to the meeting and obviously 10 questioned why he was there. They were usually the country 11 Councillors who stayed at the hotel. 12 13 Q. So who, to your understanding, had met Mr Doolan prior 14 to the meeting? 15 A. I believe Mr Toussaint was an objector to Mr Doolan 16 being chairperson of the meeting. I think he was one of 17 them and there were a couple of others that voiced their 18 concern. 19 20 Q. So, to your understanding, the people that had met 21 Mr Doolan before the meeting had met him in order to raise 22 objection to him chairing the meeting; is that right? 23 A. I believe that they were aware that he was there and 24 had been spoken to at breakfast, prior to the metros 25 arriving, and that there was a concern that he should not 26 chair - he could speak to the meeting, but not chair the 27 meeting. 28 29 Q. And that's right that that went ahead, isn't it, that 30 he did not chair the meeting; correct? 31 A. No, he didn't chair the meeting. 32 33 Q. He addressed the meeting; correct? 34 A. Yes, yes. 35 36 Q. Are you able to assist: did he address the meeting 37 right at the start or some time later? 38 A. I think the meeting was opened and then he was asked 39 to say a few words. 40 41 Q. Can you recall, when you say "say a few words", did he 42 say a few words or did he speak for quite some length? 43 A. I can't recall how long, but it was - he did address, 44 as is his wont. He took up a fair amount of time. 45 46 Q. Could you put an estimate on that time? 47 A. No. .28/09/2017 (16) 1787 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 2 Q. Are we talking five or ten minutes, or maybe an hour? 3 A. Oh, no, he didn't take an hour. I'd say in the 4 quarter of an hour, 20 minutes range. 5 6 Q. And he addressed a number of issues; is that right? 7 A. Yes. 8 9 Q. What issues do you recall him addressing? 10 A. Certainly Mr Rowe's issue, that was one of the main 11 issues. We didn't dwell too much on the Granville issue, 12 I believe, because Mr Stephenson advised him that I 13 wouldn't resign and there was no way that they could 14 dismiss me, so I think that was an issue that wasn't 15 discussed, to be honest with you. It was more along the 16 lines of how we would treat Mr Rowe after he decided to 17 resign. 18 19 Q. What did Mr Doolan say about Mr Rowe? 20 A. Well, Mr Rowe was National - Deputy National 21 President. He was well aware of his service to the 22 organisation and well aware of his commitment to matters 23 outside of New South Wales. 24 25 Q. I"m sorry to interrupt, Mr Haines. Just to be clear, 26 what I am after is not what you thought Mr Doolan thought, 27 but what Mr Doolan said. What did Mr Doolan say about 28 Mr Rowe? 29 A. He pointed out that he'd given long and continuous 30 service to the organisation, we should remember that, if in 31 actual fact we were to discuss any issues arising out of 32 his expenses, keeping in mind, of course, that it would 33 be - we would have to consider the good name of the RSL. 34 35 Q. You understood from that that he was concerned that if 36 it got out that Mr Rowe had been doing the wrong thing with 37 his expenses, that would damage the brand of the RSL; 38 correct? 39 A. Well, we knew that would happen. I think Mr Doolan 40 was also concerned that it would also damage the good name 41 of the RSL National Board, because Mr Rowe was the Deputy 42 National Board President. 43 44 Q. Did you take from that that Mr Doolan was really 45 encouraging you to deal with Mr Rowe without it being 46 broadcast outside of State Council? 47 A. I thought - I took it that he was encouraging .28/09/2017 (16) 1788 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 State Council to be aware of Mr Rowe's service and, yes, 2 how would it affect our organisation in the years ahead. 3 4 Q. You took from that that Mr Doolan was encouraging 5 State Council to deal with it in a way that meant that the 6 issue did not become known outside of State Council; 7 correct? 8 A. Correct. 9 10 Q. Just to be clear, with Mr Doolan, you say that he 11 spoke for a time. Was that in committee or out of 12 committee? 13 A. In committee - normally in committee we ask the staff 14 to leave the room, and I believe that the staff were not in 15 attendance. I can't recall, but that's normally what 16 happens, that we ask the staff to leave the room and then a 17 person is identified as the minute-taker, unless, of 18 course, the Chairman decides that a staff member could stay 19 behind and take the minutes. That would normally be 20 Mr O'Brien. I can't recall at that time, but I believe it 21 was in committee. 22 23 Q. Just on that issue, when the meeting went in 24 committee, was it the normal practice for a staff member to 25 stay in order to record what was going on? 26 A. Normally the staff members would leave, but if the 27 President - if the Chairman at that time felt it was 28 appropriate, a senior staff member would be invited to stay 29 back and take the minutes. 30 31 Q. If there was a matter of particular sensitivity, so if 32 all the staff had left and you were in committee, what then 33 happened about the minutes? 34 A. What should happen is a person would volunteer to take 35 the minutes. 36 37 Q. Take or tape? 38 A. No, take. No tapes in committee. Take the minutes 39 down, have them typed up and put in the in-committee book. 40 41 Q. You say that's what should have happened. Did that in 42 fact happen generally with State Council meetings when they 43 went in committee? 44 A. In my experience, normally what would happen is that 45 we would trust a senior member of State Branch - normally 46 the Assistant Secretary - to stay behind and take the 47 minutes. That would normally happen. .28/09/2017 (16) 1789 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 2 Q. Who was that commonly around this time? 3 A. On this occasion it would probably be Mr O'Brien. At 4 that stage - yes, I believe it would have been Mr O'Brien. 5 It might have been - no, I think that was normally the 6 person who would stay behind. He does the administration 7 side. 8 9 Q. On this occasion, on 27 January, am I right that at 10 some time the meeting went in committee? 11 A. Yes, correct, yes. 12 13 Q. Where you discussed Mr Rowe? 14 A. That's right. 15 16 Q. Are you able to assist now, when it went in committee 17 on that occasion, was there a member of staff who stayed 18 behind? 19 A. I can't recall. 20 21 Q. You said --- 22 A. I can't recall if there was a person who would have 23 taken the minutes either, so I'm just assuming someone did 24 stay. 25 26 Q. Did any member of State Council ever keep the minutes? 27 A. A person who keeps very detailed and good minutes is 28 Mr Toussaint, and that's through his business - and there 29 wouldn't be too many others who would volunteer to take the 30 minutes in any case, so -- 31 32 Q. But did Mr Toussaint take the minutes or was it simply 33 a matter that he took his own notes? 34 A. No, he probably took his own notes. I can't recall 35 anyone identifying as they would take the minutes, so, 36 no, I'm sorry, I couldn't. 37 38 Q. Would it be right to say it was common practice that 39 when the State Council went in committee, if it was 40 particularly sensitive, all members of staff would leave? 41 A. Correct. 42 43 Q. And then there would be no minutes kept of what was 44 said in committee? 45 A. Unless the Chairperson at this stage were to invite - 46 would suggest or invite a senior member of staff to stay 47 behind and take the minutes, and trust that person. .28/09/2017 (16) 1790 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 2 Q. I asked you whether you said "take" or "tape" and you 3 said "take". 4 A. Yes. 5 6 Q. I think you said "No tape"? 7 A. No tape, yes. Take the minutes down, in written form. 8 9 Q. Were State Council meetings recorded from time to 10 time? 11 12 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Do you mean tape-recorded? 13 14 MR CHESHIRE: Q. Tape-recorded. 15 A. The minutes of State Council are recorded - taped. 16 I don't believe the minutes of in committee, because on 17 most occasions it's asked could the tape be turned off. 18 19 Q. To your understanding, why would the tape be turned 20 off when you go in committee? 21 A. I'd say because State Councillors would be reluctant 22 to be - to identify issues that would be of concern or may 23 embarrass people. They would be identified in the minutes 24 and, therefore, they are less likely to step forward and 25 make comments in regards to someone personally or some 26 issue. So I'm assuming that's the reason why. 27 28 Q. But that's the minutes, though. There would be no 29 reason, would there, why in committee could not be 30 tape-recorded, albeit that no minutes might be produced? 31 That could easily be done, couldn't it? 32 A. Correct, correct, and then placed in - some 33 identification placed in the in-committee book. 34 35 Q. Yes. 36 A. Which is kept - I think it's the State Secretary or 37 Chief Financial Officer kept it in a safe. 38 39 Q. On this occasion, 27 January, are you able to assist: 40 you have said that Mr Doolan spoke for a time and then, at 41 some stage, there was an in-committee meeting where Mr Rowe 42 was discussed? 43 A. I believe during that time, yes. 44 45 Q. Are you able to assist as to whether there were other 46 bits of out of committee, were there other bits of in 47 committee? How did the meeting progress? .28/09/2017 (16) 1791 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 A. I'm sorry, I can't recall. It's just in general 2 discussion. 3 4 Q. Do you recall, when Mr Doolan addressed the meeting, 5 to your recollection that was out of committee; correct? 6 A. No, I believe it was - it may have been initially, but 7 I believe his comments were made in committee. 8 9 Q. So, to your understanding, if the tape was running 10 when Mr Doolan was speaking, at some stage the tape was 11 stopped and then Mr Doolan addressed the meeting about 12 Mr Rowe? 13 A. If memory serves me correct, I believe it was asked 14 that the tape be turned off. I believe that was the case, 15 so a statement could be made. I'm not fully sure of that, 16 but I believe that that was -- 17 18 Q. Is it your recollection that it was Mr Doolan who 19 asked for the tape to be turned off? 20 A. Yes. 21 22 Q. And then Mr Doolan, to your recollection, addressed 23 the State Council freely; correct? 24 A. Yes, yes. 25 26 Q. And he would have used Don's name; correct? 27 A. Correct. 28 29 MR CHESHIRE: Is that a convenient time, Madam Inquirer? 30 31 PUBLIC INQUIRER: It is, yes. 32 33 Mr Haines, we are going to take a short break. If you 34 would like to step down, stretch your legs and come back 35 just a little before 10 to 12. 36 37 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 38 39 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Yes, I will adjourn until then. Thank 40 you. 41 42 SHORT ADJOURNMENT 43 44 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Yes, thank you. Come back into the 45 witness box, please, Mr Haines. Yes, Mr Cheshire. 46 47 MR CHESHIRE: Thank you. .28/09/2017 (16) 1792 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 2 Q. So, Mr Haines, at the meeting on 27 January, you have 3 accepted that there was discussion in committee about what 4 to do about Mr Rowe; correct? 5 A. That's correct. 6 7 Q. Your view was, was it not, that Mr Rowe had done the 8 wrong thing; correct? 9 A. With that information that we had before us then, yes. 10 11 Q. That was your view at that time; correct? 12 A. Correct. 13 14 Q. You were also of the view, however, that 15 State Council, either itself or through the various 16 committees, should have picked up what had been going on 17 with Mr Rowe's expenses; correct? 18 A. If there had have been a problem prior to 25 November, 19 those who audited it - and it was financial, those who 20 audited the financial books should have advised either the 21 Vice-Presidents or State Council. 22 23 Q. You were aware, were you not, that the members of 24 State Council had ultimate responsibility for those issues; 25 correct? 26 A. Yes, correct. 27 28 Q. Your view was, was it not, that Mr Rowe had done the 29 wrong thing, but State Council were as much to blame as 30 anyone else for allowing it to happen? 31 A. For not making a more determined effort to ensure a 32 course that it didn't happen. 33 34 Q. Which had allowed it to happen; correct? 35 A. I suppose so, yes. 36 37 Q. And you were concerned, weren't you, that if what had 38 happened with Mr Rowe's expenses got out into the broader 39 community, there would be damage caused to the RSL name; 40 correct? 41 A. That was one of my concerns, yes, the RSL brand and 42 also those members of the RSL who worked so diligently for 43 our organisation. 44 45 Q. And if it got out, there would be criticisms levelled 46 at the State Councillors for having allowed this to happen; 47 correct? .28/09/2017 (16) 1793 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 A. That wasn't foremost in my thinking, but I suppose 2 there are other people out there that would agree with 3 that. 4 5 Q. That was at least part of your thinking, wasn't it? 6 A. At least part of it. 7 8 Q. Your view as well, was, wasn't it, that if it got out 9 at that stage, you wouldn't be able to control the way that 10 it was presented; correct? 11 A. If it got out, the way the organisation operates, 12 there would be attempt to - there would be an attempt to 13 use what had happened to damage the RSL and to bring the 14 RSL organisation down. 15 16 Q. And the members of the sub-branches might well express 17 criticisms of the State Councillors; correct? 18 A. That's correct, and they didn't deserve to have the 19 stigma attached to them because of the issues regarding 20 State Council. 21 22 Q. And these were the types of issues that you discussed 23 at the meeting on 27 January; correct? 24 A. That's correct. 25 26 Q. Do you recall that Mr James referred to what had 27 happened as being a serious indictable offence? 28 A. Yes, yes, I can recall, yes, he did - he did make that 29 mention. 30 31 Q. And he also raised the issue, didn't he, that it was 32 potentially a criminal offence to cover up a serious 33 indictable offence; correct? 34 A. Yes, that's right. 35 36 Q. So that meant that all of the members of State Council 37 had to be extremely careful about this issue; correct? 38 A. Correct. 39 40 Q. Do you recall that Mr James distributed a section of 41 the Crimes Act for each of you to look at? 42 A. Yes, he did. 43 44 Q. And that was the section of the Crimes Act that dealt 45 with covering up a serious indictable offence; correct? 46 A. Correct. 47 .28/09/2017 (16) 1794 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 Q. So you then, at that meeting, decided to consult 2 Mr Cannings; correct? 3 A. Seek a legal opinion, yes. 4 5 Q. Mr Cannings then attended the meeting on 27 February; 6 correct? 7 A. Yes. 8 9 Q. Mr Cannings attended the meeting on 27 February? 10 A. Yes. 11 12 Q. Do you recall that? 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. And he presented orally; correct? 16 A. Yes, a verbal report, yes. 17 18 Q. Later on he confirmed that in writing; correct? 19 A. I believe so. I haven't - I don't have - I haven't 20 got that information, but I believe so, yes. 21 22 Q. Do you recall now the content of what he told you at 23 that meeting? 24 A. Basically that it wasn't as serious as what we were 25 led to believe, that, in actual fact, Mr Rowe had been 26 careless in keeping an itemised account of the moneys that 27 he spent. I think that's the basis of the comment that he 28 made. 29 30 Q. From what you say, it appears that Mr Cannings didn't 31 address the meeting for very long; is that correct? 32 A. No, it wasn't that long at all, no. 33 34 Q. And he didn't address you then about the issue of the 35 section of the Crimes Act that Mr James had given you; 36 correct? 37 A. Not that I can recall, no. 38 39 Q. I'll show you a copy of his written advice. If you 40 could turn to page 238. This is KM.02.0000059. Have you 41 seen this document before? This is the written advice that 42 came later? 43 A. No, I can't recall seeing this. 44 45 Q. If you would read to yourself, about halfway down he 46 says that in providing his advice what he's had regard to, 47 and then he has expressed the opinion - do you see those .28/09/2017 (16) 1795 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 paragraphs 1 to 5 at the bottom of the page? 2 A. Mmm-hmm. 3 4 Q. If you look in particular and would read to yourself, 5 numbers 1 and 2. 6 A. Yes, I've read that. 7 8 Q. In fact, in fairness, I should allow you to read 3 to 9 6 as well. 10 A. Yes, I've read that. 11 12 Q. And 6 over the page as well. 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. Is that consistent with the advice as you recollect it 16 from Mr Cannings? 17 A. Yes, that's correct. 18 19 Q. So Mr Cannings then didn't tell you about whether you 20 should report the matter to the State Congress, for 21 instance, did he? 22 A. No. 23 24 Q. The resolution, if you then turn to page 227, 25 RSL.21.0000277 -- 26 A. In-committee minutes? 27 28 Q. Yes. 29 A. Yes. 30 31 Q. Do you see this is of 27 February? So there is a 32 review of the Grant Thornton report, a verbal report by 33 Mr Cannings, and the resolutions (a), (b), (c) and (d); do 34 you see that? 35 A. Yes. 36 37 Q. Written advice will follow, the Grant Thornton review 38 is to be accepted, and Mr Rowe is to be advised that 39 specific expenses outside of State Presidential Expense 40 Guidelines be repaid? 41 A. I see that, yes. 42 43 Q. Do you recall that that was the resolution passed on 44 27 February? 45 A. That's correct. 46 47 Q. Is it contract that that resolution was not unanimous? .28/09/2017 (16) 1796 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 A. Yes. There was general discussion in regards to - 2 whilst it says, "That the former State President be advised 3 that specific expenses outside of the State President's 4 expense guidelines be repaid", it didn't identify that. 5 Some members felt it was too broad. They accepted the 6 report by Mr Cannings and they accepted that there would be 7 a memorandum of advice forthcoming. So there were a number 8 of members who felt that it should have identified more 9 appropriately those expenses, or those other areas that 10 were of concern to Grant Thornton. 11 12 Q. As you understood it, this resolution brought to an 13 end the issue of Mr Rowe and his expenses; correct? 14 A. No, I - what I thought is that this would be the 15 beginning of a further inquiry into the expenses of 16 Mr Rowe, whilst President. I thought this was only the 17 start of it, that a further report would be forthcoming 18 from the President and from the Treasurer and others, legal 19 people, as to what further action we would take. I was one 20 of the ones - well, I assumed I was one of the ones under 21 the impression that this didn't go far enough. This left 22 the State Council in the position whereby it looks like 23 we'd only completed half the job. 24 25 Q. This resolution does not refer to any further 26 investigation; that's right, isn't it? 27 A. That's correct. 28 29 Q. It's right, isn't it, that there was no further 30 investigation that was pursued at this time; correct? 31 A. That's correct. It was - a number - I can't remember 32 who else that I spoke to, that I thought we should move 33 along a little bit further and make some further inquiries 34 and investigations. There were one or two others, but I 35 don't even think a vote was taken. I think it was just 36 accepted that the - we just resolved that this is what we'd 37 accept. 38 39 Q. Am I right that your position was that you thought the 40 matter should go further; correct? 41 A. I was one of - I can't remember the others, but this 42 only - this really only touched on the fact that - and we 43 didn't know the full story. We weren't aware of all the 44 other issues that had come out of Mr Rowe's tenure as 45 State President. 46 47 Q. As I understand it, you were one of a number of people .28/09/2017 (16) 1797 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 then who thought that there should be further 2 investigations; correct? 3 A. Further inquiries and investigation, yes. 4 5 Q. But you understood that, following this resolution 6 being passed, those investigations were not going to be 7 carried out; that's right, isn't it? 8 A. No, I assumed they would be carried out by the - or a 9 motion would come forward from the President and the 10 Treasurer, and also State Branch officials and legal, as to 11 how we would go about that. I wasn't aware of how we could 12 go about it, because I wasn't sure of some of the other 13 issues that were obviously known by others. 14 15 Q. Just go back to page 238, if you would, Mr Cannings's 16 advice. 17 A. Yes. 18 19 Q. I took you to the six recommendations, or six matters 20 of opinion that Mr Cannings set out. You see in that 21 advice, and in particular those six matters of opinion, 22 Mr Cannings does not raise the possibility of this matter 23 going any further; correct? 24 A. No, he doesn't raise it personally, but -- 25 26 Q. And it's not raised in the resolution that I've shown 27 you? 28 A. No, no, not raised in the resolution. 29 30 Q. If you remember back in December at the State 31 Executive meeting, there was a resolution for there to be a 32 forensic audit; correct? 33 A. Correct, yes. 34 35 Q. And, therefore, given that the forensic audit has now 36 been completed, if the matter was going to go any further, 37 there would need to be some form of resolution for it to go 38 further; correct? 39 A. Based on the audit, yes. 40 41 Q. Well, at all? 42 A. Yes. 43 44 Q. You've had the audit, it has been done, you've passed 45 a resolution. If anything else is going to be done, there 46 needs to be a resolution to do something else; correct? 47 A. That's correct, yes. .28/09/2017 (16) 1798 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 2 Q. The resolution of 27 February did not resolve for 3 anything else to be done -- 4 A. That's right. 5 6 Q. -- taking it further; correct? 7 A. Correct. 8 9 Q. There was never any further resolution, was there, 10 taking it any further? 11 A. Not that I can recall, no. 12 13 Q. So do you still maintain that after this resolution, 14 you expected it to go further? 15 A. I expected that we would - once we moved away from the 16 issues identified, that if there were any other issues that 17 did arise, it wasn't for State Council to initiate that, it 18 was for the State Branch and those officials such as the 19 State Treasurer and the President, Acting President, to 20 initiate that. 21 22 Q. But, Mr Haines, you are a member of State Council; 23 correct? 24 A. Correct. 25 26 Q. You all have a responsibility towards State Branch; 27 correct? 28 A. Correct. 29 30 Q. You all have duties to ensure that the finances of 31 State Branch are looked after properly; correct? 32 A. Correct. 33 34 Q. So issues such as whether there is to be any 35 investigation into what Mr Rowe had done are matters for 36 State Council as a whole; correct? 37 A. Correct, and on the advice of legal and other 38 recommendations, or comments made by those members of 39 State Council who are involved in the financial aspects or 40 affairs of State Branch. 41 42 Q. But each one of the members of State Council are 43 involved in the financial affairs of State Branch, aren't 44 they? 45 A. To the point of adopting or - adopting the financial 46 reports. 47 .28/09/2017 (16) 1799 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 Q. Well, to the extent of making the resolution as to 2 what is to be done with Mr Rowe; correct? 3 A. Yes, based on the information we've got, we didn't - 4 we were remiss not taking another step forward and seeking 5 clarification or further information in regards to other 6 aspects of Mr Rowe's tenure. 7 8 Q. Because it would be right, would it not, that 9 following the resolution of 27 February, to your 10 understanding, no further steps were taken in relation to 11 Mr Rowe's expenses other than getting him to pay back a sum 12 of money; correct? 13 A. That's correct, yes. 14 15 Q. So whilst you might have hoped or expected somebody to 16 do something, each of you had a responsibility, if you 17 wanted it to go further, to raise that issue, didn't you? 18 A. Correct. 19 20 Q. And it's right that you never raised that issue again, 21 did you? 22 A. No. 23 24 Q. So, in effect, what happened on 27 February was, at 25 least at that time, the end of the matter; correct? 26 A. In the eyes of most, yes. 27 28 Q. And in the eyes of you at that time? 29 A. Correct. 30 31 Q. I have shown you Mr Cannings's legal advice. 32 Mr Cannings formed a view about whether Mr Rowe had been 33 fraudulent or criminal? 34 A. Yes. 35 36 Q. And said that he'd been careless? 37 A. Correct. 38 39 Q. But he didn't explain to you the basis on which he 40 thought that; correct? 41 A. That's correct, yes. 42 43 Q. And you had formed your own view on that issue, hadn't 44 you? 45 A. Yes. 46 47 Q. And your own view was that it wasn't a case of Mr Rowe .28/09/2017 (16) 1800 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 being careless; it was a matter of him being dishonest, 2 correct? 3 A. It was a case of him not being honest in coming 4 forward saying that he had a problem, and that he hadn't 5 carried out his duties in the way that he should have 6 carried out his duties in regards to the financial 7 guidelines. 8 9 Q. So that raised the relevance of the section of the 10 Crimes Act that Mr James had given you, didn't it? 11 A. Correct, yes. 12 13 Q. You accept that on that issue - the issue of whether 14 Mr Rowe had been careless or honest, or dishonest - that 15 was a matter on which you could express an opinion just as 16 well as Mr Cannings, couldn't you? 17 A. Yes, without his legal background. 18 19 Q. But on that issue of whether he was dishonest or not, 20 that was a matter that you could form a view just as well 21 as Mr Cannings; correct? 22 A. Correct. 23 24 Q. You said "without his legal background". Mr James 25 actually raised the issue, didn't he, as to whether 26 Mr Cannings had experience in criminal law? 27 A. Yes, he did. 28 29 Q. And Mr Cannings, you were aware, did not have 30 experience in criminal law; correct? 31 A. Yes. 32 33 Q. It's right that Mr Cannings did not say to you, "Don't 34 tell State Congress"? That's right, isn't it? 35 A. I can't recall him saying that. 36 37 Q. And he didn't say to you, "Don't go to the police"? 38 That's right, isn't it? 39 A. I can't recall him saying, "Don't go to the police". 40 41 Q. So those were matters, were they not, that 42 State Council still needed to consider; correct? 43 A. Yes. 44 45 Q. And it appears that those matters were not considered; 46 correct? 47 A. Yes. .28/09/2017 (16) 1801 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 2 Q. Because you would accept, would you not, that it 3 suited State Council for this matter not to be taken any 4 further; correct? 5 A. Correct. 6 7 Q. But, sitting here today, you would accept, would you 8 not, that it ought to have been taken further? 9 A. In hindsight, we should have taken the next step, as 10 I indicated, that I thought would be taken - we should have 11 taken that next step. 12 13 Q. In fact what was done, wasn't it, was a coverup? 14 A. I don't agree it was a coverup. 15 16 Q. If I can then take you to page 97, RSL.21.0000274; do 17 you have that? 18 A. Mmm-hmm. 19 20 Q. Do you see this is the in-committee minutes of 21 State Council on 12 December? Do you see that? 22 A. Yes. 23 24 Q. Do you see under the heading "Acting 25 State President" - do you see that? 26 A. Yes. 27 28 Q. Do you see it says: 29 30 Mr John Haines AM stood aside at this time 31 as the Acting State President due to 32 conflicting commitments, particularly at 33 the Kokoda Track Memorial Walkway and other 34 responsibilities, excessive travel time and 35 his strong desire to allow continuity of 36 the Executive. 37 38 Do you see that? 39 A. Yes. 40 41 Q. That wasn't true, was it? 42 A. In what way? 43 44 Q. You stood down because of the issue being raised about 45 the Granville honorarium; that's right, isn't it? 46 A. That was an issue, but this other matter - this matter 47 in regards to the Kokoda Track Memorial Walkway was raised. .28/09/2017 (16) 1802 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 2 Q. Yes, but, Mr Haines, I asked you about why you stepped 3 aside as acting State President and your clear evidence was 4 that it was because of the issue being raised about the 5 Granville honorarium and you not wanting to embarrass the 6 sub-branch? 7 A. The sub-branch and other identities that I'm involved 8 with. 9 10 Q. Yes, but that was the real reason why you resigned, 11 not what is set out here; correct? 12 A. I still believe that the matter - the reason I stood 13 aside is the embarrassment that would be caused to my 14 sub-branch and to other interests that I had outside the 15 RSL. I still stand by that. 16 17 Q. Yes. And that matter of the embarrassment to the 18 sub-branches is not recorded in these minutes; correct? 19 A. No. 20 21 Q. So, therefore, what it states as to the reason why you 22 stood aside is not true; that's right, isn't it? 23 A. It's true that the minutes do not identify the reasons 24 as I stated at that meeting. I don't know why it isn't, 25 and I don't know why particular emphasis is placed on the 26 Kokoda Track Memorial Walkway. 27 28 Q. So the true reason was not revealed by the minutes; 29 correct? 30 A. That's correct. 31 32 Q. If you then go forward to page 100, RSL.22.0000002 - 33 do you see that - the State President's monthly newsletter 34 for December? Do you see that? 35 A. Yes. 36 37 Q. Do you recall that Mr Stephenson - you'll see that on 38 the second page - published a monthly newsletter some time 39 in December? 40 A. Yes. 41 42 Q. This then dates it as being after you had stepped 43 aside; correct? 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. So that's after the December 2014 State Council 47 meeting? .28/09/2017 (16) 1803 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. If you look in the fourth paragraph: 4 5 On Don's retirement ... 6 7 Do you see that? 8 A. Yes. 9 10 Q. 11 ... it fell upon ... John Haines AM to 12 step into that role. However with many and 13 varied commitments, such as Chair of the 14 Kokoda Walkway ... 15 16 I'll let you read to the end of that paragraph. 17 A. Yes, I have read that. 18 19 Q. That does not state the true reason for your 20 departure, does it? 21 A. I'd say it was a very generous statement by 22 Mr Stephenson in regards to my position. 23 24 Q. And the position, Mr Haines, is that it did not state 25 the true reason as to why you stepped aside; correct? 26 A. Whilst it does not state that there, I think you'd 27 have to ask Mr Stephenson as to why that was prepared. I 28 wasn't aware of it. 29 30 Q. Mr Haines, I didn't ask for a reason as to why it was 31 prepared. I simply put to you the proposition that that 32 paragraph does not record the true reason; that's right, 33 isn't it? 34 A. It doesn't record other reasons why I stood aside. 35 36 Q. Mr Haines, it does not record the true reason, which 37 was the embarrassment to the sub-branch; that's right, 38 isn't it? 39 A. That's correct, yes, and other issues. 40 41 Q. If you look at the second paragraph: 42 43 As every member should be aware ... 44 45 Do you have that, the second paragraph on that same page? 46 A. Yes. 47 .28/09/2017 (16) 1804 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 Q. 2 As every member should be aware of by now, 3 Don's immediate and severe health issues 4 led to medical advice to stand down 5 immediately. As a colleague and friend of 6 Don I have been as shocked and saddened as 7 many of you will have been on hearing this 8 news. 9 10 Again, that paragraph did not state the true reason, as you 11 understood it at that time, as to why Mr Rowe had left; 12 correct? 13 A. It was becoming apparent that there were other reasons 14 other than Mr Rowe's ill health, and that's - as I said, we 15 were drip-fed information from November onwards as to the 16 other issues, and whilst it doesn't identify the reasons 17 that we found out during that period of time, most of us 18 were still under the impression that it was in regards to 19 severe health issues. 20 21 Q. Mr Haines, you accepted earlier that, at the meeting 22 on 11 or 12 December, when you stepped aside, the meeting 23 began with Mr White saying that Mr Rowe had left because of 24 an ultimatum that he had given him about his expenses. So, 25 in those circumstances, this newsletter comes out after 26 that meeting, and what is then set out in the second 27 paragraph was not the true reason; that's right, isn't it? 28 A. There were a number of State Councillors who would not 29 accept the reasons given by Mr White. We wanted to see 30 other information that would suggest otherwise, and we 31 didn't have that, however, as stated in black and white, 32 that wasn't the reason why Don stood aside. We were still 33 concerned that if there are other issues, they should have 34 been forthcoming to State Council. That hadn't been the 35 case. 36 37 Q. Mr Haines, even if there was any uncertainty in your 38 mind, it would not then be right, would it, to put out a 39 positive statement that he retired on the basis of health 40 issues if you thought that might not be case; correct? 41 A. That's correct, yes. 42 43 Q. So those statements about Mr Rowe and about yourself 44 should not have been made; correct? 45 A. Correct. 46 47 Q. You were aware - you would have read this newsletter .28/09/2017 (16) 1805 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 around that time, wouldn't you? 2 A. Yes, I would have received it the same as everyone 3 else. 4 5 Q. It's right, isn't it, that you never sought to have 6 those statements corrected? 7 A. No. 8 9 Q. That is right, isn't it? 10 A. That's right. 11 12 Q. If you can then be given Exhibit 13, page 216. 13 RSL.02.0427267, page 216. Just behind tab 5, if that 14 assists. Do you have that? 15 A. Yes. 16 17 Q. Do you see this is an email from Mr Harrigan to 18 yourself? 19 A. Mmm-hmm. 20 21 Q. Copied to Mr Toussaint and Mr James; do you see that? 22 A. Yes. 23 24 Q. Do you see that Mr Harrigan - this is 25 February, so 25 two days before the meeting on 27 February? 26 A. Mmm-hmm. 27 28 Q. He says: 29 30 Having just completed seven days on my 31 back ... I have had plenty of time to 32 review the events leading and preceding 33 Don's retirement, I will not be at the 34 meeting ... 35 36 Then he continues: 37 38 I am sending my summary of events and 39 perceptions, which may be of some use ... 40 41 Do you see that? 42 A. Yes. 43 44 Q. If you then turn over to page 217, you will see this 45 is Mr Harrigan's background and summary of resignation; do 46 you see that? 47 A. Yes, I can. .28/09/2017 (16) 1806 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 2 Q. You received this email, didn't you? 3 A. I believe so. 4 5 Q. And you would have read the email and the attachment; 6 correct? 7 A. Yes, yes. 8 9 Q. And you will see that Mr Harrigan gives a description 10 of events; do you see that? 11 A. Yes. 12 13 Q. And then on page 219, he expresses some conclusions? 14 Do you see that? 15 A. Mmm-hmm. 16 17 Q. At the bottom of page 219, do you see the conclusion 18 is in the middle and then the final bullet point: 19 20 There are rumours throughout the 21 sub-branches there is more to this than 22 they have been told. To quote an example 23 he had his hand in the till? 24 25 Do you see that? 26 A. I see that. 27 28 Q. So you were aware, weren't you, that there were 29 rumours in the sub-branches that Mr Rowe had his hand in 30 the till; correct? 31 A. There were rumours in the sub-branches that it was 32 more than ill health, that Mr Rowe had stood down, yes. 33 34 Q. And that he had had his hand in the till; correct? 35 A. That was never mentioned to me at a sub-branch 36 meeting. 37 38 Q. Then if you look over on page 220, just below the last 39 bullet point, it says: 40 41 I am sending this summary to each of you 42 (John, Tony and Ray) ... 43 44 Do you see that? 45 A. Yes. 46 47 Q. .28/09/2017 (16) 1807 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 ... to decide what you wish to do at the 2 meeting to resolve some of these important 3 issues. Should this enter the public 4 domain then we will have to thank the 5 Treasurer and any other person involved in 6 the cover up (which is what it was). If so 7 then there will be a need to investigate 8 the matter. 9 10 Do you see that? 11 A. That's correct. That's Mr Harrigan's view, yes. 12 13 Q. Yes. You didn't express any disagreement with that, 14 did you? 15 A. In replying to his email? 16 17 Q. Mmm. 18 A. I can't recall replying to his email. That was his 19 view. That may not be mine. 20 21 Q. You say it may not be yours, but it was consistent 22 with your view, wasn't it? 23 A. It was consistent with my view that there could be 24 other issues that we hadn't been advised of. 25 26 Q. But at the meeting on 27 January, you have accepted 27 from me that the effect of the resolutions was to bring an 28 end to the matter? 29 A. At that stage, yes. 30 31 Q. So the decision not to take it further was a coverup, 32 wasn't it? 33 A. I don't agree it was a coverup. 34 35 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. Well, what was it? 36 A. I believe that a number of - Madam Inquirer, I believe 37 a number of members were of the view that there is 38 something more than just asking - or Mr Rowe standing aside 39 because of health reasons. We knew the antagonism between 40 Mr Rowe and Mr White. We were well aware of it ourselves. 41 We were probably suspicious that it could be more than just 42 a comment here and there from Mr White. He did not fully 43 inform us, and I actually spoke to the other 44 Vice-Presidents to see if they had any further knowledge 45 than what I had, because he never contacted me. 46 47 Q. Mr White? .28/09/2017 (16) 1808 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 A. Mr White, never. And I would have thought that, as a 2 senior person - and senior to Mr White, to be honest with 3 you - I believe he should have spoken to me and if there 4 had have been other issues we could have worked it out a 5 little bit differently than what happened, and that didn't 6 happen. 7 8 Q. But my question to you is: if you kept it to 9 yourself, if you kept it in-house, it wasn't reported to 10 Congress and it was never exposed and all the things that 11 were said were inconsistent with the truth, really, about 12 why Mr Rowe went -- 13 A. Mmm. 14 15 Q. -- why isn't that, to the reasonable observer, 16 described as a coverup? 17 A. Possibly because a number of us felt there would be 18 further investigation and further information would come 19 out and -- 20 21 Q. The fact is it wasn't. 22 A. No, it wasn't, and I for one wasn't prepared just to 23 take the comments or the statements made by Mr White. I 24 wanted to see something further. 25 26 Q. Having not seen anything further and having not done 27 anything further to expose this generally in the place 28 where it might well have been exposed, in the Congress, to 29 the members, the reasonable observer could assume, couldn't 30 he or she, that it's covering it up? 31 A. I suppose so. That may appear to some. It didn't 32 appear to a number of the sub-branch members that I'd 33 spoken to. 34 35 Q. It didn't appear to you, you say; is that right? 36 A. It didn't appear to me, no. 37 38 Q. But you'd accept that it looks that way? 39 A. To some others, yes. 40 41 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Yes, Mr Cheshire. 42 43 MR CHESHIRE: Q. If you then could be provided again 44 with Exhibit 10 -- 45 46 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. You see, Mr Haines, the minute that 47 you were taken to about your departure, when you look at .28/09/2017 (16) 1809 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 that and you see it has nothing to do with Granville, the 2 real reason, that also may seem to be, to the reasonable 3 observer, covering that up; do you agree with that? I know 4 you didn't write it, but would you agree with that? 5 A. Obviously in my mind, the whole purpose of the 6 Granville issue was to force me out of the position and -- 7 8 Q. Of course. But not putting it in the minute is what 9 I'm talking to you about. 10 A. I can't answer why - why it didn't go in. 11 12 Q. I'm not asking you why. I'm suggesting to you that 13 not putting a real reason for your departure, whether it be 14 politically motivated or otherwise, putting this business 15 about you being too busy was just a coverup of what really 16 happened, wasn't it? 17 A. I accept that. 18 19 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Yes, all right. 20 21 MR CHESHIRE: Q. And it was done to protect the brand of 22 the RSL; correct? 23 A. Correct. 24 25 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. Just before you go on to that, 26 Mr Cheshire, I'm sorry to interrupt. There was one aspect 27 of this which you gave evidence about when you were asked 28 about it, and you said the way this organisation operates 29 is that it would have damaged the RSL and it would have 30 been brought down. What did you mean by that? 31 A. The reason why I say that is because we would go to 32 a - our meetings would be held either Friday - it used to 33 be Saturday, Sunday, then Friday, Saturday. Within a week 34 after that meeting, irrespective of what was raised at the 35 meeting, I would go to a sub-branch meeting or a District 36 Council meeting and people would be discussing what 37 happened at the State Council. The State Council - I'm not 38 accusing anyone, I'm just saying State Council - leaks like 39 a sieve, and it was embarrassing, because some of the 40 issues that we discussed, we hadn't resolved, yet I was 41 getting advice as to how we could resolve it, when we 42 hadn't even gone back for a second meeting. So it would 43 not surprise me when I attended a meeting that people knew 44 more about what was happening at State Branch than what I 45 did, because we hadn't had another meeting. Obviously they 46 knew of a recommendation or a comment made by a Council 47 officer or some senior person. I wasn't aware of that. It .28/09/2017 (16) 1810 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 would be embarrassing to all of us. 2 3 I can say, Madam Inquirer, that I have been to 4 functions and ceremonies where people not connected with 5 the RSL knew what was happening. So that's the reason why 6 I made that comment. 7 8 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Thank you for that. Yes, Mr Cheshire. 9 10 MR CHESHIRE: Q. You would accept, wouldn't you, that 11 the circumstances in which a coverup of Mr Rowe's departure 12 have now emerged has in fact been far more damaging to the 13 RSL brand; correct? 14 A. Correct. 15 16 Q. If I can then take you in this volume to page 424.6, 17 RSL.06.0190888. 18 A. What page was it? 19 20 Q. Page 424.6. 21 A. Yes. 22 23 Q. If you look at towards the bottom of the page, an 24 email from Mr Stephenson; do you see that? 25 A. Yes. 26 27 Q. That's to yourself and a number of others; correct? 28 A. Mmm-hmm. 29 30 Q. He gives an account on that day, which continues 31 through to number 10; do you see that? 32 A. Yes. 33 34 Q. He says in 10: 35 36 I was contacted by the editor of Reveille 37 early in January to urgently give a 38 State Presidents report, while I 39 acknowledge that I had some knowledge of 40 the true reason for Don Rowe's resignation 41 and being aware that Don did in fact suffer 42 some serious illnesses I felt I could not 43 report this in Reveille while an audit was 44 being conducted. 45 46 Do you see that? 47 A. Yes. .28/09/2017 (16) 1811 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 2 Q. Do you recall that I asked you about the 3 State President's newsletter? You were also aware there 4 was a Reveille for January-February 2015; correct? 5 A. Correct, yes. 6 7 Q. Which referred to Mr Rowe having left on the basis of 8 ill health; correct? 9 A. Mmm-hmm, yes. 10 11 Q. So what Mr Stephenson was telling you here was that 12 when he wrote that item in Reveille, he felt that he could 13 not report the true reason while an audit was being 14 conducted; do you see that? 15 A. Yes, I see that. 16 17 Q. But it would be right, wouldn't it, that once the 18 audit had been completed and once State Council had voted 19 what to do about Mr Rowe, the true reason should have been 20 revealed? 21 A. It should have been identified, yes. 22 23 Q. You received this email from Mr Stephenson; correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 26 Q. And you would have read it? 27 A. I did. 28 29 Q. If there was anything in it with which you disagreed, 30 you would have written to him and say, "I don't agree with 31 that, Peter"; correct? 32 A. I accepted his comments in the report. 33 34 Q. If you could then be provided again with Exhibit 13. 35 Just go back to page 220, there are some things I want to 36 ask you about on that page. 37 A. Yes. 38 39 Q. Do you see the second bullet point RSL.02.0427268_3: 40 41 Was any other State Councillor ... 42 43 Do you see that? 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. Then in the italics: 47 .28/09/2017 (16) 1812 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 For example a comment by a state councillor 2 he offered Don some $4000 of receipts - I 3 said I did not hear his comment but we all 4 did, so is his comment on the record and if 5 so when did he become aware Don was short 6 on with receipts. 7 8 Do you see that? 9 A. I see that. 10 11 Q. You recall that that comment was made at the meeting 12 on 27 January? 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. And it's right that that raised a potentially serious 16 matter, didn't it? 17 A. Correct. 18 19 Q. It's right that that matter was never investigated; 20 correct? 21 A. No. 22 23 Q. I'm correct, aren't I? 24 A. Correct. The comment or the suggestion was dismissed 25 out of hand. 26 27 Q. But it ought to have been pursued, oughtn't it? 28 A. It was felt once it was dismissed out of hand, we 29 thought it was ridiculous for the person to even make that 30 suggestion, and it was then forgotten. 31 32 Q. When you say "the person to make the suggestion", what 33 do you mean by that? 34 A. Well, a person made the comment that - that that 35 person had receipts over and above what he would be 36 required to submit, and that he would be prepared to hand 37 some of those receipts to Mr Rowe to allow his expenses to 38 be appropriate, to be -- 39 40 Q. But the suggestion was, wasn't it, that one of the 41 State Councillors had already offered to Don those 42 receipts; correct? 43 A. That's right. He offered, yes. 44 45 Q. And that then was a serious matter; correct? 46 A. That's the reason why we dismissed it. 47 .28/09/2017 (16) 1813 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 Q. Without investigating it? 2 A. Yes. 3 4 Q. So a State Councillor says, "I have offered Don some 5 of my receipts" and you dismiss it; is that right? 6 A. I disregarded his comment. I thought it was a 7 ridiculous statement to make. 8 9 Q. What do you mean "a ridiculous statement" if he says 10 he has done something, why is it ridiculous for him to say 11 it? 12 A. Because I realise it would have been picked up in an 13 audit, and also the compliance department would have seen 14 through it. As I said, I just thought it was a foolish 15 statement to make by a person who was very close to Don. 16 17 Q. It seemed, then, as if that person who was close to 18 Don had attempted to help Don; correct? 19 A. That appeared to be. 20 21 Q. And if that were right, that would have been 22 completely dishonest; correct? 23 A. Yes. 24 25 Q. And, therefore, that matter, the fact of him offering 26 to do that, ought to have been investigated; correct? 27 A. Correct. 28 29 Q. But, as you say, it was never mentioned again, was it? 30 A. Not to my knowledge. 31 32 Q. Then in that bundle would you go to page 204. To give 33 you context, page 203, MED.01.0000025, you'll see this is a 34 news paper article from 14 December 2016 - do you see that? 35 A. 204? 36 37 Q. 203, first of all, so you can see what the document 38 is. Do you see just above the headline the date, 39 14 December 2016? Do you see that? 40 A. Yes. 41 42 Q. It's about Mr Rowe's expenses. 43 A. Mmm-hmm. 44 45 Q. Then on page 204, towards the bottom of the page, the 46 last two paragraphs, you are quoted as having said: 47 .28/09/2017 (16) 1814 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 It was my belief that Don was suffering 2 from leg problems and that was why he 3 resigned ... 4 I was assured it was his health. It wasn't 5 until some time later that rumours began 6 that it was something other than that. 7 8 Do you see that? 9 A. Yes. 10 11 Q. Well, at least by December 2016, you were under no 12 doubt whatsoever that Mr Rowe had left because of being 13 challenged about his expenses; correct? 14 A. He'd been challenged - I believe that it was his 15 health problems and that other issues were surfacing, as I 16 said, drip-fed. I was of the belief that there should have 17 been more information given to us to assure us that that 18 was correct, not just a throwaway line by Mr White in this 19 instance. 20 21 Q. Mr Haines, after Mr Rowe left, apart from being told 22 on that day, Mr Rowe telling you that he left because of 23 ill health, after that day, you were told in December that 24 Mr Rowe left because of being challenged about his 25 expenses; correct? 26 A. Correct. 27 28 Q. And that was the position that you were told also in 29 January and February of 2015; correct? 30 A. Yes. 31 32 Q. So the only information you had from December 2014 33 onwards was that Mr Rowe had left because of being 34 challenged about his expenses; correct? 35 A. Yes, yes. 36 37 Q. So it was misleading for you to say what you are 38 recorded as saying at the bottom of page 204, wasn't it? 39 A. I wouldn't say it was misleading. I was making a 40 comment to the best of my knowledge, and I just accept 41 that. If it appears that I was misleading someone, I can't 42 see that, but I just make that point. 43 44 Q. It wasn't rumours that you heard. Mr White told you 45 explicitly, didn't he? 46 A. I didn't trust Mr White. 47 .28/09/2017 (16) 1815 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 Q. But you never challenged Mr White on that issue, did 2 you? 3 A. On this issue? 4 5 Q. On Mr White, when he told you Mr Rowe left when he 6 challenged -- 7 A. When he told State Council. 8 9 Q. When he told State Council, including you, that 10 Mr Rowe had left because Mr White challenged him about his 11 expenses, you never challenged Mr White about that, did 12 you? 13 A. We challenged him to produce information, which he 14 hadn't done at that stage. As I said, he was drip-feeding 15 information to us. 16 17 Q. In the context of Mr Rowe having left suddenly and in 18 the context of you having seen the issues with Mr Rowe's 19 expenses, your belief at that time was what Mr White told 20 you was correct; that's right, isn't it? 21 A. Partially correct. 22 23 Q. Well, you understood that Mr White had challenged 24 Mr Rowe about his expenses; correct? 25 A. Yes, yes. 26 27 Q. Right. And that was the reason why Mr Rowe left on 28 that day; correct? 29 A. That was the reason that Mr White said. 30 31 Q. And you believed him, didn't you? 32 A. I believed that Mr Rowe was suffering health issues 33 and if there are other issues beside that, once again that 34 should have been identified to us. Until that happened, I 35 didn't trust Mr White to fully explain to us the reasons 36 why. 37 38 Q. But at least by 27 February 2015, when you passed the 39 resolution, it was your belief that Mr Rowe had left 40 because of the issue with his expenses; correct? 41 A. That's correct. 42 43 Q. Therefore, those two paragraphs on 204 did not tell 44 the whole story, did they? 45 A. As of December 14? 46 47 Q. This is December 2016. .28/09/2017 (16) 1816 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 A. 2016, yes. 2 3 Q. They did not tell the whole story; that's right, isn't 4 it? 5 A. That's correct. 6 7 Q. And, as such, they were misleading; correct? 8 A. I'd say so. 9 10 Q. If you then go back to page 197, you will see another 11 news article, MED.01.0000010, from October 2016. Do you 12 see that? 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. Do you see about halfway down the page the quote: 16 17 They are rightly so disturbed ... 18 19 Do you see that? 20 A. Yes. 21 22 Q. Just above that, it says that: 23 24 RSL NSW president John Haines addressed a 25 meeting of the district presidents on 26 Friday. 27 28 Do you see that? 29 A. Yes. 30 31 Q. 32 Mr Haines says even though the problem is 33 not a legal one, people within the 34 organisation are still upset. 35 36 A. Yes. 37 38 Q. 39 Some of them said they were misled ... 40 they are now saying 'Well, they should have 41 at least told us'. 42 43 Do you see that? 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. Do you accept that you said that to the District 47 President? .28/09/2017 (16) 1817 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. And, indeed, that complaint that you record of people 4 saying that they were misled and saying that they should 5 have been told, that was a valid complaint, wasn't it? 6 A. By members? 7 8 Q. Yes. 9 A. Yes. 10 11 Q. Because they had been misled; correct? 12 A. Yes. 13 14 Q. And they'd been misled by State Council; correct? 15 A. Yes. 16 17 Q. And they should have been told by State Council; 18 correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 21 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Just on that topic, Mr Cheshire, is this 22 not an article about the RSL LifeCare payment? 23 24 MR CHESHIRE: I beg your pardon, it is. 25 26 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Perhaps that could be cleared up. 27 28 MR CHESHIRE: Q. Just to be clear, and I'll move on to 29 that issue shortly, but in relation to the LifeCare issue, 30 do you accept that, Mr Haines, that the members were 31 misled? 32 A. Misled by who? 33 34 Q. By the members of State Council who were receiving 35 LifeCare fees? 36 A. Only those members of State Council who were 37 receiving, not the others. They weren't aware. 38 39 Q. Is it your view that you, personally, were misled by 40 the other members of State Council? 41 A. By those members on RSL LifeCare? 42 43 Q. Yes. 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. If you could then go forward in that bundle to 47 page 212, you'll see an article MED.01.0000069, do you see .28/09/2017 (16) 1818 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 that? 2 A. 212, yes, I can't miss it. 3 4 Q. You will recall this is correct, isn't it, that you 5 were asked not to march and you said that you were going 6 to; correct? 7 A. That's correct. 8 9 Q. If you look at page 213, towards the bottom, three 10 paragraphs from the end: 11 12 I'm very serious about what I do, and I 13 have been vice-president for 20 years and I 14 believe that I carry out my duties to the 15 best of my abilities. 16 17 Do you see that? 18 A. Mmm-hmm. 19 20 Q. You would accept that in the manner in which you, as a 21 member of State Council, dealt with Mr Rowe's expenses, you 22 failed to carry out your duties as you ought to have done; 23 correct? 24 A. Well, the comment's made in regard to this issue - it 25 was a different issue altogether in regards to Mr Rowe's 26 expenses. 27 28 Q. Yes, but I'm now asking you in the context of 29 Mr Rowe's expenses, you would accept that you failed in 30 carrying out your duties to RSL (NSW); correct? 31 A. Only in regards to Mr Rowe's expenses. 32 33 Q. At this time, it's right, isn't it, that you had 34 agreed to stand aside from your position on State Council; 35 correct? 36 A. Correct. 37 38 Q. That being different from standing down; correct? 39 A. Yes. 40 41 Q. So am I right that you stood aside as part of a deal, 42 effectively, to have RSL National withdraw the charges that 43 had been brought against RSL (NSW)? 44 A. We had discussions with National in regards to these 45 issues, and we had a meeting with the National President in 46 regards to how we could still carry on with our ceremonial 47 and committee duties, and it was agreed that we would stand .28/09/2017 (16) 1819 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 aside rather than stand down or resign. 2 3 Q. That was on the basis that the charges against 4 RSL (NSW) would be dropped; is that correct? 5 A. That was suggested by National. 6 7 Q. Was that the reason why you then stepped aside? 8 A. There was a seven-point plan that we put to the - on 9 22 February. I indicated to Mr Dick, he had a look at it, 10 he agreed, and on 24 February we stood aside, providing we 11 could continue on with the seven-point plan. That was 12 agreed to by National. 13 14 Q. After that, did you continue to perform your duties 15 during the time that you had stood aside? 16 A. Yes. 17 18 Q. What then was the difference between having stood 19 aside and not having stood aside? 20 A. My view was stand aside is we could still carry out 21 the duties in regards to our ceremonials, our meetings. At 22 the same time, on 24 February, a proposal was put forward, 23 with the agreement by National, that we would have a 24 caretaker management committee that would carry out the 25 normal function of State Council day to day. 26 27 Q. Is that how it then worked, that they then carried out 28 the normal function of State Council? 29 A. In the main, yes. 30 31 Q. What then happened after that? Was there a time where 32 you were handed back the reins? 33 A. No. The reins were taken off me on 24 May 2017. 34 35 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. After the election? 36 A. Yes. 37 38 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Yes, I see. 39 40 MR CHESHIRE: Q. Around the end of 2016, you are aware 41 that Dr Bain and Mr Henderson resigned; correct? 42 A. Correct, yes. 43 44 Q. Did Dr Bain have a conversation around that time with 45 you about the fact that he was thinking of resigning? 46 A. No, I didn't have too many conversations with Dr Bain 47 over the period of time that we served on State Council. I .28/09/2017 (16) 1820 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 can't recall - in regards to this particular matter, no, I 2 can't recall that. 3 4 Q. Didn't Dr Bain ask you to take the issue about 5 Mr Rowe's expenses to State Congress? 6 A. What date was that? 7 8 Q. About a week or so before he resigned, so in 9 about October/November 2016? 10 A. I can't recall him mentioning it, to be honest with 11 you. 12 13 Q. Do you accept that he may well have done? 14 A. No, I don't. 15 16 Q. Do you accept that you may have said to him, "That's 17 not going to happen"? 18 A. It wouldn't be my right to say that. I didn't have 19 the authority to say that, so I don't know why he would say 20 that. 21 22 Q. You say that that's not right, do you? 23 A. That's true. 24 25 Q. Also, I think prior to the election in May of this 26 year, you were asked to stand aside by Mr Dick; is that 27 correct? 28 A. Mr Dick? 29 30 Q. Yes. 31 A. Yes. 32 33 Q. What was your response to that? 34 A. Was that prior to 24 February? 35 36 Q. No, that was in May of this year. 37 A. I refused because I thought it was a ploy by Mr Dick 38 to seek some media exposure and I wasn't prepared to do 39 that. I was prepared to stand by what I'd said previously 40 until 24 May and the membership would decide one way or the 41 other whether I continued on as President or not, and they 42 decided that I would not. 43 44 Q. Did you think that, in the context of the way that you 45 had handled Mr Rowe's expenses, perhaps it was appropriate 46 for you to stand aside? 47 A. No, no, I didn't. .28/09/2017 (16) 1821 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 2 Q. Given what you have accepted from me today about the 3 coverup, do you accept that it now was in fact reasonable 4 for Mr Dick to request for you to stand aside at that time? 5 A. No, I don't. I thought he would have been in constant 6 contact with Mr White and would have got a truer picture 7 from Mr White than what he would have got off me, so I 8 wasn't prepared to stand down. I didn't accept that he had 9 the right to do that, in any case. 10 11 Q. When you say "would have been in contact with 12 Mr White", what period are you referring to in that regard? 13 A. Mr White was elected National President on June 6, 14 2016. I became Acting State President on that day. 15 16 Q. Yes. 17 A. And he would have spent more time with Mr Dick than I 18 would have, and I felt that if there was a question in 19 regards to my position, I didn't see why that would be 20 raised with me, and if he wanted a true understanding of 21 the issues at New South Wales, he would have been talking 22 to Mr White. 23 24 Q. Do you recall that you gave some evidence earlier 25 about Mr Doolan attending the meeting on 27 January 2015? 26 A. Yes. 27 28 Q. You are aware that Mr Doolan had had discussions with 29 Mr Stephenson outside of that meeting; correct? 30 A. Yes. 31 32 Q. And Mr Doolan came and addressed you about Mr Rowe; 33 correct? 34 A. Addressed State Council, yes. 35 36 Q. Mr Doolan was aware, at least at that time, of the 37 issue of a problem with Mr Rowe's expenses; correct? 38 A. That's correct, yes. 39 40 Q. Are you able to assist as to whether there was ever 41 any indication from Mr Doolan or anybody else at RSL 42 National that Mr Doolan had shared that information with 43 anybody else at RSL National? 44 A. No, I - I would have assumed that would happen when 45 you hand over but, no, I'm not privy to that. 46 47 Q. Did you ever, particularly when Mr Dick was asking you .28/09/2017 (16) 1822 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 to resign, raise with him the fact that RSL National knew 2 what was going on with Mr Rowe's expenses through 3 Mr Doolan? 4 A. And through Mr White. 5 6 Q. No, but did you raise that with Mr Doolan? 7 A. No, no, I didn't. 8 9 Q. I asked you a little while ago about some issues about 10 LifeCare. Am I right that you are aware that RSL LifeCare 11 has members as distinct from its Board; correct? 12 A. Members, yes, I am. 13 14 Q. And the members of RSL LifeCare are its Directors plus 15 RSL (NSW)? 16 A. Correct. 17 18 Q. And when LifeCare has an annual general meeting, 19 RSL (NSW) sends a delegate; correct? 20 A. It has a Director's delegate, yes. 21 22 Q. I think at a time you were that delegate; correct? 23 A. For one meeting. 24 25 Q. When you attended that meeting, there was a formal 26 approval of the financial statements of LifeCare; correct? 27 A. That's correct. I didn't have a full copy of it, 28 though, but that's correct, yes. 29 30 Q. When you say you didn't have a full copy, why would 31 you not have had a full copy? 32 A. The meeting lasted 17 minutes. 33 34 Q. Yes. 35 A. And I didn't have all the issues - all that other - 36 that I noticed all other members had. I only had the 37 information that they supplied to me. 38 39 Q. Well, if that's right, didn't you raise a complaint 40 and say, "Hang on a minute, I haven't got everything"? 41 A. No, no, I didn't, but I raised the complaint when I 42 went back to State Council - the State President, who had 43 asked me to attend on his behalf, on State Council's 44 behalf, and I indicated that I wouldn't attend any more 45 meetings at RSL LifeCare. 46 47 Q. What was the date of that meeting? .28/09/2017 (16) 1823 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 A. The State Council meeting? 2 3 Q. No, the AGM that you attended. 4 A. I can't remember what date. 5 6 Q. Which year? 7 A. I think it was 2014 - I think it was 2014. Yes, 8 Mr Rowe was the Chairman, so it must have been 2014. 9 10 Q. If you were unhappy about the position, why didn't you 11 raise it during the meeting? 12 A. My view was that they had members from RSL (NSW) at 13 the meeting, five members, State Branch and State 14 Councillors. My honest opinion was I didn't - I wasn't 15 quite sure why I was there and no-one was going to take any 16 notice of another delegate from RSL, and it was my view 17 that the issues that were being raised, of course, were 18 virtually in-house for them. I just didn't feel 19 comfortable and that's the reason why I resigned. 20 21 Q. Was there any discussion during that time about the 22 content of the financial statements? 23 A. Not that I can recall. 24 25 Q. Are you able to assist whether you had or did not have 26 the notes to the financial statements? 27 A. In the jacket that they gave me, under 28 "remunerations", my file was vacant. There was nothing in 29 my file that said "remuneration". It was vacant. 30 31 Q. Hang on, did you have any part of the financial 32 statements? 33 A. I only had some of it, yes. 34 35 Q. Are you aware now that there was a note in the 36 financial statements which referred to the Directors 37 receiving consulting fees? 38 A. I never saw that. 39 40 Q. Are you aware now that there was? 41 A. I'm told that there was, yes. 42 43 Q. Are you able to assist as to whether that page was or 44 was not in the documents with which you were provided? 45 A. I didn't receive that. 46 47 Q. Do you still have the documents with which you were .28/09/2017 (16) 1824 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 provided? 2 A. No, no. I handed that in to State Council when I went 3 back to the next State Council meeting. 4 5 Q. Isn't it, then, just as conceivable that you did have 6 that page, but you never read it and it was not the subject 7 of any discussion? 8 A. If I had have read it, I would have noticed it and I 9 would have commented on it. 10 11 Q. But it's possible that - the meeting, I think you said 12 it was 17 minutes? 13 A. Seventeen minutes. 14 15 Q. So presumably there wasn't any detailed discussion 16 about anything; correct? 17 A. Correct. 18 19 Q. So in the context of there being no detailed 20 discussion about the financial statements, it is equally 21 plausible, isn't it, that it was there, but it wasn't a 22 matter that you had your attention drawn to? 23 A. My attention, yes. I'd say others similar, because it 24 was very little - very little was discussed in regards to 25 that. 26 27 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. The Inquiry has received some 28 documents which seem to suggest that you did receive the 29 annual financial statements of RSL LifeCare by email before 30 the meeting, which did include the note. So, if that is 31 the case, then what Mr Cheshire has put to you is probably 32 the case, that you didn't either read the note or you 33 didn't appreciate it at the time; is that right? 34 A. I can't recall receiving it, yes. 35 36 Q. Let me assume that the email that was sent to you 37 arrived with the financial statements in it. I think the 38 proposition that I need to put to you is you either didn't 39 read it, or, if you read it, you didn't appreciate that the 40 Directors had been paid consultancy fees? 41 A. That I didn't notice it. 42 43 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Yes, all right. Yes. 44 45 MR CHESHIRE: Q. So your position is that, at least 46 until it was raised - and I'll come to that in a moment - 47 you had not appreciated that any of the Directors were .28/09/2017 (16) 1825 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 receiving any money from the work they were doing for 2 LifeCare; is that correct? 3 A. As Directors? 4 5 Q. At all. 6 A. That's correct. 7 8 Q. I should qualify that: you would have known that they 9 might have been paid expenses from time to time; correct? 10 A. Out-of-pocket expenses, yes. 11 12 Q. But beyond that, you were not aware of any of the 13 Directors of LifeCare receiving payments; correct? 14 A. Correct. 15 16 Q. You recall that this was raised by Mr Toussaint in May 17 of 2015? 18 A. Yes, that's right. 19 20 Q. Prior to that date, had it been raised, to your 21 knowledge? 22 A. No, it hadn't been raised, to my knowledge. Some - I 23 can't recall, someone had made a comment in regards to 24 Directors being paid at RSL LifeCare. My information was 25 that Directors didn't get paid. I didn't believe that 26 would be the case, because they would have identified that 27 at our meetings when they were elected. Mr Toussaint 28 apparently heard the comment from whoever it was, and then, 29 I believe it was in the foyer of the Hyde Park Inn, he 30 raised that with one or two of the delegates - one or two 31 of the State Councillors. 32 33 Q. Were you present when Mr Toussaint raised this? 34 A. No, I'd gone home. 35 36 Q. How did you find out about this? 37 A. Either he told me or someone told me the next day, or 38 days after, of the heated exchange between Mr Toussaint and 39 those two State Councillors. 40 41 Q. Were you told that it was a heated debate about 42 receiving fees for work being done for LifeCare? 43 A. Yes, and not informing State Council they were 44 receiving the fees. 45 46 Q. What was your reaction when you heard that? 47 A. I questioned - the next possible time I had the .28/09/2017 (16) 1826 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 chance, and I can't recall when, I believe I spoke to 2 Mr Humphreys and Mr Crosthwaite. I asked in regards to 3 their role at RSL LifeCare, were there any issues that we 4 should be aware of coming out of the comments made by 5 Mr Toussaint? I was advised that, no, there were no issues 6 that will affect State Council - RSL State Council. 7 8 Q. Would it be right to say that you took that issue no 9 further at that time? 10 A. No, I didn't - I had other issues in regards to 11 members being from State Council on RSL LifeCare, that 12 wasn't an issue for me. 13 14 Q. When you say "other issues", what was your other 15 issue? 16 A. I'd raised the point previously, I don't believe any 17 member of State Council should be a member of - any State 18 Councillor, I'm sorry, should be a member of RSL LifeCare. 19 I believe that that should be given out to other members of 20 the RSL or into the corporate or the aged care field, 21 rather than a State Councillor. State Councillors can't 22 wear two hats and I have indicated that on many occasions. 23 24 Q. Why is it your view, or why can they not wear two 25 hats? 26 A. I indicated that if they were at RSL LifeCare and a 27 matter came up that affected the RSL movement, RSL (NSW), 28 and they voted on it, and they attend the State Council 29 meeting, why would they be allowed to vote again? In 30 actual fact, that did happen, including the recommendation 31 by RSL LifeCare as to the component of the Board of 32 Directors, which included four of our members. I excluded 33 the State President because that's ex officio. 34 35 Q. Would you also include the potential issue with two 36 hats as between RSL (NSW) and WBI? 37 A. Yes, I totally agree. I've had issues in regards to 38 WBI and Custodian. I believe - I have made the point on a 39 number of occasions that I do not believe a State Secretary 40 should be a member of WBI or Custodian, and I believe it 41 should be - and there's a motion on the books - increased 42 to five members, excluding the State Secretary, a 43 Vice-President - and I nominated one of the country 44 Vice-Presidents - and two members of the RSL. So instead 45 of three people, one being the State Secretary, it would be 46 five people, being the State President, the Treasurer, 47 possible Vice-President and two other members of the RSL. .28/09/2017 (16) 1827 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 I have indicated that on a number of occasions. 2 3 Q. Given your issue about wearing two hats, why not a 4 complete separation of the three Boards, in effect? 5 A. That's a possibility, and it probably will happen in 6 the future. At present, though, I believe the membership 7 would rather see - in regards to RSL LifeCare, they're 8 using the name "RSL", and they would rather see some 9 association with the RSL. In regards to WBI, or 10 DefenceCare, some years ago DefenceCare - it was decided, 11 and State Council agreed, that RSL would not be identified. 12 I was one of those who objected and said it's ridiculous to 13 ask our members to donate to RSL DefenceCare when our "RSL" 14 name is not there. That was changed about two or three 15 years ago. It came back and it's now called RSL 16 DefenceCare. If you are going to ask membership to be 17 involved, I think it's got to be clear to them what 18 involvement we have. 19 20 Q. Could the same be achieved by, effectively, rather 21 than having two or three, but by having, for instance, a 22 delegate on each of WBI and LifeCare so one could have one 23 person appointed by State Council sitting on the Board of 24 LifeCare and the trustees of WBI? Would you disagree with 25 that? 26 A. No, I think that's fair enough. The complaints that 27 I've had, and I've registered over the years, is that very 28 little information came back from RSL LifeCare. It was 29 verbal. It was only when I had a meeting with the 30 President and the General Manager that I pointed out that 31 we couldn't be accused of being unfair when we had no 32 information regarding their operation which they now send 33 to State Council. 34 35 In regards to RSL WBI, because of the issues in 36 regards to the assistance they give to veterans and younger 37 members, it's a virtual closed shop. It's very, very 38 confidential. We never used to - we hardly got any reports 39 back in regards to how it operated. It just seemed to be 40 three people all the time - I was RSL Vice-President for 41 20 years. I did not attend a WBI meeting until, I believe, 42 late June/early July 2016. 43 44 Q. Given what you say about separation of the three 45 organs - I'll call them Boards - would that also extend 46 then to being less of a flow of information? Would you say 47 that would be a good thing, in other words, greater .28/09/2017 (16) 1828 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 separation between the two bodies? 2 A. With RSL LifeCare we were told the reason why the 3 members were required was because they had some special 4 quality - aged care, financial, legal. There could be a 5 number of other issues. 6 7 My personal view on State Council, I can't identify 8 too many members on State Council who would have special 9 qualities in regards to aged care. 10 11 Q. I think, Mr Haines, I was asking a slightly different 12 issue. If you're talking about having the Boards with 13 greater independence between the three of them - I'll call 14 them Boards - then would it flow from that that you are 15 also in favour of a greater separation between the three 16 organisations which would include, therefore, less 17 information sharing? 18 A. I don't believe - no, I don't believe it would be less 19 information. It just means the quality of information that 20 is coming back. With DefenceCare, I don't think it's my - 21 as a member of DefenceCare for a very short period of time, 22 I don't think it's my role to quiz whether someone receives 23 assistance or not, but I do believe that, in the general 24 running of DefenceCare, I would be advised of that. The 25 only problem is, of course, then I couldn't transfer that 26 information I had back to State Council. 27 28 MR CHESHIRE: Is that a convenient time, Madam Inquirer? 29 30 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Yes. 31 32 Mr Haines, there's a little more to go, so if you 33 wouldn't mind just stepping down for luncheon and returning 34 at a quarter past 2. 35 36 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much. 37 38 PUBLIC INQUIRER: I will adjourn until a quarter past 2. 39 Thank you. 40 41 LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT 42 43 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Come back into the witness box, please, 44 Mr Haines. Yes, Mr Cheshire. 45 46 MR CHESHIRE: Q. Mr Haines, do you recall before lunch, 47 I was asking you about Mr Toussaint having raised the issue .28/09/2017 (16) 1829 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 of LifeCare fees with Mr White? 2 A. He raised it with Mr - originally with Mr Humphreys 3 and Mr Crosthwaite. 4 5 Q. And then I think with Mr White as well? 6 A. Mr White, yes. 7 8 Q. You are aware that Mr White wrote an email to 9 Mr Toussaint? 10 A. I'm aware, yes. 11 12 Q. Did you discuss the content of that email with 13 Mr Toussaint? 14 A. Briefly. He was concerned with the nature of the 15 email. 16 17 Q. The email was copied to you, wasn't it? 18 A. Yes. 19 20 Q. Did you think the email was appropriate for Mr White 21 to have sent to Mr Toussaint? 22 A. No. 23 24 Q. Why not? 25 A. It seemed to me threatening and also, once again, I 26 don't think you - my belief is you don't talk to your 27 fellow workers that way. 28 29 Q. So what did you do about that? 30 A. I believe at the behest of Mr Toussaint, who - he 31 thought it over and obviously discussed it with his family. 32 It didn't appear that he wished to pursue it. 33 34 Q. So, effectively, at that stage, it was just forgotten 35 about or put to one side? 36 A. Correct, correct. 37 38 Q. Incidentally, you gave evidence before lunch about 39 having attended one AGM for LifeCare. If I was to suggest 40 that in fact you attended the AGM of LifeCare in 2012 and 41 2013, would you disagree with that? 42 A. As a State Councillor? 43 44 Q. Yes. 45 A. Yes, as nominated. The reason being in I think it was 46 2012, the Constitution of the RSL LifeCare changed. There 47 were issues that I brought to the attention of Mr Rowe in .28/09/2017 (16) 1830 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 regards to our members being party to - being part of RSL 2 LifeCare and not reporting back, only verbally, the fact 3 that I thought they were double-dipping. They were voting 4 at RSL LifeCare and coming back and voting at RSL State 5 Branch. 6 7 The other thing is - the other point that I raised was 8 that we seem to be always dealing with just the 9 recommendation from RSL LifeCare, and I'm not criticising 10 them, but that's the system they had. We were just - we 11 were just ticking off their recommendation, where I believe 12 we should have sought further information on those that 13 they nominated. 14 15 Q. Just to be clear, though, Mr Haines, do you accept 16 that you attended the 2012 and the 2013 AGM? 17 A. Yes. If it says that, yes. 18 19 Q. Do you recall that shortly after you were appointed as 20 State President, that you had a discussion or a meeting 21 with Mr Thompson and Mr Riddington, at which various issues 22 were discussed? 23 A. Mmm-hmm. 24 25 Q. Do you recall that in the course of that meeting, 26 Mr Thompson asked you if there was any issue about the 27 consulting fees and did you need to talk about that? 28 A. What date was that, please? 29 30 Q. Some time in 2016, shortly after you were appointed. 31 A. They asked could they come and meet me, and I said 32 yes. They met me at Anzac House, and I raised those 33 issues - I raised the issues of lack of information 34 forthcoming, the fact that I wasn't happy with the 35 State Councillors being on RSL LifeCare, that I was going 36 to propose to State Council that in future no RSL State 37 Councillor be appointed to RSL LifeCare. A number of other 38 issues that we spoke about - I indicated that when all this 39 is all over, I hoped that we could be friends again and 40 that we continue on our merry way in regards to our 41 veterans. 42 43 I complimented Mr Thompson on their attitude towards 44 younger veterans, which, in actual fact, at that stage, I 45 think they had about 40 or 50. At the end of the meeting 46 he said, "I thought you would raise the issue in regard to 47 consulting fees", and I said, "I think it's a bit late to .28/09/2017 (16) 1831 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 start raising it now". 2 3 Q. When you say "a bit late", what did you mean by that? 4 A. Well, people were talking about it. There's nothing 5 we can do. They are the ones that nominated the - they're 6 the ones who nominated the Directors, and from then on, I 7 might add, from then on, the nominations that came in were 8 for two other people. When I indicated they would be State 9 Councillors and we would vet those people, the two people 10 they sent - the two names they sent up - can I repeat the 11 names? 12 13 PUBLIC INQUIRER: No, you don't need to. 14 15 THE WITNESS: Okay. That two names that they sent up with 16 their resume, and we know them well, we thought they were 17 appropriate. They were far more appropriate than any other 18 State Councillor I could see at that time. Then the next 19 one, of course, we agreed - out of those three that they 20 nominated whilst I was there, they never got a State 21 Councillor, and I just pointed that out to them. I think 22 that's the way we should go. 23 24 MR CHESHIRE: Q. The third one, that was Mr Cannings; is 25 that right? 26 A. Mr Cannings. 27 28 Q. Am I right that your issue at this stage was trying to 29 separate State Councillors from the LifeCare Board; is that 30 right? 31 A. I was going to use the word "neutralise". I won't use 32 the word "neutralise". I wanted them to be people who 33 were, once again, not wearing two hats - making their 34 decision at RSL LifeCare and then sending that on to RSL in 35 their reports, knowing, of course, that it wasn't a done 36 deal by the time it got there, and I think we've achieved 37 that. 38 39 Q. Then in relation to consulting fees, was that a matter 40 that you were indicating was really a matter then for the 41 LifeCare Board to decide what happened with their members? 42 A. I indicated to them that I had no issue with RSL 43 LifeCare paying fees for consultants or for those that 44 attend, providing they are not RSL State Councillors. In 45 actual fact, I would have nominated the local District 46 Council President, who doesn't live too far, if they wanted 47 an RSL person, but not a State Councillor. .28/09/2017 (16) 1832 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 2 Q. So, in that context, would it be right that you 3 wouldn't have an issue with them paying themselves 4 Directors fees, as long as they are not State Councillors? 5 A. That's correct. 6 7 Q. One last thing on this issue. Am I right that when 8 the issue of LifeCare fees broke, you asked Mr Crosthwaite 9 and Mr Humphreys to stand aside? 10 A. Initially I asked them were there issues and they 11 indicated to me no. I think their information was based on 12 the information that was given to them by their associates 13 at RSL LifeCare. When it became quite obvious that it was 14 going to be a major concern, I asked them to consider their 15 position, given that they could either be one or the other, 16 which I was trying to guide them down. I believe 17 Mr Humphreys took advice and decided to stand down, or 18 remove himself from State Council, and Mr Crosthwaite 19 decided he would see it out. 20 21 Q. When I asked about Mr Rowe's expenses, do you remember 22 that on 27 February, a resolution was passed, in effect, 23 for him to repay certain items that were outside the 24 guidelines? 25 A. Mmm-hmm. 26 27 Q. There was no figure or method of calculating what 28 those were; do you recall that? 29 A. That's right. Most of us wouldn't have known what 30 those items were. 31 32 Q. Are you able to assist, then, as to how the amount was 33 calculated? 34 A. The amount that he paid? 35 36 Q. Yes. 37 A. That was following discussions between Mr Stephenson, 38 Mr White, Ms Mulliner, and I think Mr Cannings. It was 39 left in their hands to negotiate with Mr Rowe the repayment 40 of those fees. We were of the view that, out of that, once 41 that was handed over, once they'd sorted that out, a 42 further report as to how - what else we would have to 43 undertake to ensure, of course, that we'd clear this issue 44 up. 45 46 Q. What amount, to your understanding, was repaid? 47 A. I heard different amounts, but I was of the view it .28/09/2017 (16) 1833 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 was near $4,000. 2 3 Q. When you say you heard different amounts, is it right, 4 then, that there was never a formal reporting back to 5 State Council on the amount? 6 A. $7,000, working its way down to $4,000, I believe. 7 8 Q. On my question - I think you shook your head, and I 9 think you agree - is it right that it was never reported 10 back to State Council how much Mr Rowe had actually paid 11 back? 12 A. No. 13 14 Q. Is that correct? 15 A. That's correct. 16 17 Q. In the context of your sub-branch, have you been 18 involved in the preparation of the financial statements? 19 A. No. After I resigned, I didn't have a position and 20 then recently -- 21 22 Q. Sorry, Mr Haines, prior to your resignation, did you 23 have involvement in the preparation of the financial 24 statements of your sub-branch? 25 A. For my sub-branch? 26 27 Q. Yes. 28 A. It would be the Secretary and Treasurer that would 29 work through our budget and work through the financial 30 returns and then send those over to the auditor. That 31 auditor would then sign off on it and we would submit the 32 returns plus our SBAs to State Branch. I'm not financially 33 attuned enough to be able to be involved. 34 35 Q. Did you on occasions complete or sign the SBAs, as you 36 talk about them? 37 A. Yes. 38 39 Q. You're aware that the SBAs refer to the Charitable 40 Fundraising Act? 41 A. Yes. 42 43 Q. You were aware, then, that your sub-branch had an 44 authority to fundraise? 45 A. No, I - we don't fundraise. The only authority we 46 would have is through State Branch. We don't fundraise at 47 all. We have no women's auxiliary, we don't sell Poppy .28/09/2017 (16) 1834 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 badges. We have no other ways in which we - we only live 2 on what we have got in the bank and our members' fees. 3 4 Q. So were you aware that State Branch had an authority 5 to fundraise? 6 A. Yes. 7 8 Q. Did ever read the conditions attached to that 9 authority? 10 A. I read it when I became the State Vice-President, 11 about '96/'97, and then on one other occasion after that, a 12 matter arose and I went back and had a look at it. 13 14 Q. Did you ever read the provisions of the Charitable 15 Fundraising Act? 16 A. Yes. 17 18 Q. And the regulation? 19 A. Yes. 20 21 Q. When was that? 22 A. Roughly the same time, or probably a year after '97, 23 because of this other issue that arose. 24 25 Q. You were aware then, at that time, that the Act and 26 the regulation, the conditions imposed certain requirements 27 and obligations upon the State Branch; correct? 28 A. Correct. 29 30 Q. You are aware today that, in fact, a number of those 31 requirements were not complied with; correct? 32 A. Were not met, yes. 33 34 Q. Were you ever aware that that was not being done at 35 the time? 36 A. No. Once again, those issues were the domain of the 37 Chief Financial Officer and the State Treasurer, and also 38 the State Secretary. 39 40 Q. Is it right that those issues, or any issues under the 41 Act and the regulation and the authority were not ever 42 discussed at State Council? 43 A. Not that I can recall. We signed - what they put 44 before us, we signed off. 45 46 Q. You assumed that they had done what needed to be done; 47 correct? .28/09/2017 (16) 1835 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 A. Correct. 2 3 Q. It's right, isn't it, that you never received from 4 State Council any instruction as to the various obligations 5 and requirements; correct? 6 A. Obligations or changes, no, we never received that. 7 8 Q. You would accept that, in your position as State 9 Councillor, you did have an obligation to ensure that there 10 was compliance; correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 13 Q. But I think you would say you relied upon others? 14 A. Yes, and their expertise, yes. 15 16 Q. But you accept that that does not absolve you of all 17 responsibility? 18 A. That's correct. 19 20 Q. But you would say that others had a greater 21 responsibility; correct? 22 A. True. 23 24 Q. It is right, isn't it, that from time to time there 25 has been discussion within State Branch about assets being 26 effectively, or moneys being stuck in sub-branches? 27 A. Correct. 28 29 Q. Is that a view that you share? 30 A. Yes, I do share the imbalance between some 31 sub-branches and some District Councils. It was quite 32 apparent that the more wealthy sub-branches were able to do 33 a lot more for their members than what - the sub-branches 34 without significant assets. 35 36 About six years ago I proposed to State Council that 37 we set up a fund called the Sub-Branch Support and 38 Assistance Fund. The reason why is that we were only 39 getting the more wealthy or affluent sub-branches at our 40 Congress. This way, it was to allow those sub-branches who 41 didn't have a lot of money to apply for a grant of up to 42 $2,000, and that would help them go to Congress. So, yes, 43 there was an imbalance there and obviously it's something 44 that we'll have to look at. You can't have some 45 sub-branches with $15 million and some sub-branches with 46 $50,000. 47 .28/09/2017 (16) 1836 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 Q. Was your suggestion on the fund that you set up a 2 fund, effectively whereby you would ask the richer 3 sub-branches to give donations so that you could then 4 distribute those moneys to the poorer sub-branches; is that 5 right? 6 A. Correct. The first meeting I arranged at the Hyde 7 Park Inn, I worked from the top down. Those that had 8 financial assets that I thought could assist, they were 9 very generous, in actual fact. I asked for a commitment up 10 to three years and we had sub-branches coming forward 11 saying, "We'll give you a commitment up to $5,000 for five 12 years". So I think they were very generous in assisting 13 those sub-branches who needed assistance. 14 15 Q. Was there a name for that fund? 16 A. RSL Sub-Branch Support Assistance fund. 17 18 Q. So State Council, effectively, went out to the 19 sub-branches and sought for them to make donations to that 20 fund; is that right? 21 A. I put some luncheons on and asked them to come along, 22 and if they have a reason why they didn't feel they should 23 contribute, tell me, but the ones that we had there - I 24 cannot recall one sub-branch saying no. 25 26 Q. But just to be clear, I'm sorry, Mr Haines, you had 27 them to lunches and, effectively, there you presented the 28 fund and said, "Please make donations"? 29 A. True, and also I dwelt on the point that the majority 30 of sub-branches who were finding it hard to go to Congress 31 were country sub-branches who didn't have assets. The idea 32 was to help your fellow sub-branches, as we were taught - 33 help the ones who were not up to scratch, as we were taught 34 in the Army, and they all agreed totally that they would 35 assist. 36 37 Q. Do you think that in relation to the assets being 38 stuck in the sub-branches, is it your view that the 39 sub-branches should make greater distributions to 40 DefenceCare or WBI? 41 A. No, I don't think specifically to WBI. My issue is 42 that - and I take my sub-branch, for example. I have 50 43 members in my sub-branch. We have $1 million worth of 44 shares and cash in the bank, and I only know of one person, 45 who is the President, a younger man who goes to university, 46 he deals in economics, there is no-one else on my 47 sub-branch that has any financial experience or ability and .28/09/2017 (16) 1837 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 I think that's a waste. 2 3 Q. Do you think that there ought to be a greater 4 financial experience in the richer sub-branches? 5 A. Most of them do. They have to now seek assistance 6 from organisations sponsored by the State Branch. I agree 7 totally. You can't have - I've got to be careful. You 8 can't have large assets in the bank and not getting a full 9 return or spending it unwisely due to the inexperience of 10 those who are handling the money. 11 12 Q. You are aware of projects such as Homes for Heroes; 13 correct? 14 A. Yes. 15 16 Q. Is there any reason why, for instance, your sub-branch 17 couldn't donate, if it has $1 million in assets, for 18 instance, half of that next year to Homes for Heroes? 19 A. Yes, because Homes for Heroes is a - we have a tier 20 system. They are tier one. Based on the donation plan we 21 have, it is quite possible that they'd receive a donation. 22 There are other areas that they'd like to donate to, 23 obviously - the President's Shield. There used to be a 24 disaster fund for sub-branches that had problems with 25 regards to other areas, so there would be no reason why - 26 in actual fact, a meeting was held at Penrith whereby, if I 27 recall, seven major sub-branches assisted in cooperation 28 with clubs, in the Western Sydney area, and decided they 29 would assist the Homes for Heroes project. 30 31 Q. What I was rather after, Mr Haines - and thank you for 32 that answer - is this: does your branch need to retain 33 $1 million in assets? 34 A. They need to retain the million dollars to live on the 35 interest they get from the assets. 36 37 Q. When you say, though, to "live on", for what purpose? 38 A. They hold the Anzac Dawn Service to assist our 39 veterans who need welfare assistance. We have a 40 Remembrance Day ceremony. We used to have three luncheons, 41 we only have one luncheon a year. It's just the basic 42 commemoration assistance that we give out. We are not, as 43 I said, flush with funds, but we try to get the best we can 44 out of the interest that we get off our assets. 45 46 Q. Would it be right to say, than, that each year you 47 attempt to distribute all of your income so that you .28/09/2017 (16) 1838 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 maintain your assets at a particular level, but you are 2 not, as it were, accumulating assets; is that right? 3 A. That's right, to try and work on the 2.8 per cent we 4 get back. 5 6 MR CHESHIRE: Thank you very much, Mr Haines. Thank you, 7 Madam Inquirer. 8 9 MR HODGES: I have no questions, Madam Inquirer 10 11 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Any questions? 12 13 MR GLOVER: No. 14 15 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. Mr Haines, the discussion that you 16 just had with Mr Cheshire in relation to the assets in the 17 various sub-branches is of some interest. Tell me, the 18 moneys that come out of the sub-branch to assist a veteran, 19 a returned veteran, in need, go to providing welfare 20 assistance when you become aware of that veteran's needs, 21 I presume? 22 A. Yes. 23 24 Q. How do you, as a sub-branch, become aware of a 25 veteran's needs? 26 A. Sub-branches such as myself, a small sub-branch, it 27 would have to be word of mouth. So if a relative contacted 28 us that their father, their veteran father, or mother or 29 father needed assistance, we would assist them in that way. 30 It could be in a number of ways. The wealthy sub-branches 31 normally have a welfare officer, because they are usually 32 accommodated in a club. At times they receive assistance 33 from the club, or from their assets, because they might own 34 property, for instance, and get a return. So they have a 35 more professional approach than what we would have. 36 37 Q. When you say "professional", they have a structured 38 approach for there to be an application to be made to an 39 officer, consideration of what could be done for the 40 veteran. 41 A. Yes. 42 43 Q. And then the follow-up, I presume? 44 A. In some areas they would have a central place where 45 veterans, or younger veterans, could go to receive advice, 46 legal advice, pension advice, advice in regards to their 47 medical conditions. There was one at Bondi. .28/09/2017 (16) 1839 J E HAINES (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 2 Q. Yes, I've heard about that. 3 A. That one at Bondi, when I was the President, I was 4 able to arrange for a donation I think up to about $100,000 5 to assist. But the sub-branches in that area, I believe 6 have taken them on Board and they make a donation towards 7 that centre. That only deals with that area. Someone from 8 Penrith couldn't go out there, so someone from Penrith 9 would probably go to Penrith RSL. 10 11 Q. So if a veteran comes home from war or service 12 overseas and is transitioning out of the forces to civilian 13 life, and becomes needy, it will depend on where the 14 veteran lives as to how that veteran can approach the RSL 15 for assistance? Is that right? 16 A. The younger veterans, there's a different issue. 17 I don't know whether they are as - I don't know whether 18 they are as keen to step forward and speak to their local 19 RSL as we would like them to be. We try to get them 20 involved. Their needs are far different to someone who 21 came from World War II or Korea or Vietnam. 22 23 Q. Yes. 24 A. The majority of those that hold senior positions 25 within the RSL at present mainly are Vietnam veterans who 26 well and truly realise the way that we were treated when we 27 came back, and our attitude is that those that follow us 28 will not be treated the same way as we were treated. 29 Therefore, remember they have got different issues. Some 30 of those have done two or three deployments. The 31 deployment might even be five months. But if they go three 32 times in two years, they have got different issues 33 altogether; whereas with Vietnam veterans, it would only be 34 a tour from eight months to 12. In my case I went back the 35 second time. Not all Vietnam veterans did that. So the 36 World War II ones are different to Korea and Vietnam, and 37 the younger ones now, they need special consideration. 38 That's why they need something more professional, like 39 Homes for Heroes, RSL LifeCare, the centre at Bondi, and I 40 would like to think that there would be one in Western 41 Sydney, or in the centre of Sydney and one in Western 42 Sydney that would do likewise, and offer them professional 43 help rather than just someone like me who could be just 44 casual. 45 46 Q. Remembering that this is an Inquiry under the 47 Charitable Fundraising Act, the RSL sub-branches who do .28/09/2017 (16) 1840 J E HAINES Transcript produced by DTI

1 fundraise, some have multi-million dollars in the bank, 2 others have little in the bank, as I apprehend what you 3 tell me; is that right? 4 A. That's right. 5 6 Q. So when the public donate, let's say, to the Poppy 7 Appeal, it is understood that those moneys go to the care 8 of the veterans; correct? 9 A. That's true, yes. 10 11 Q. That's a stated purpose? 12 A. That's right. 13 14 Q. If a sub-branch with the $15 million in the bank 15 account, fundraises, it is fundraising for the veteran 16 without making a contribution from its assets to the Poppy 17 Appeal; is that right? 18 A. That's right. They, first of all, sell and then the 19 proceeds go to State Branch. They get a percentage of it. 20 In an ideal world, those that have significant amounts of 21 money would hand that money over rather than keep a portion 22 themselves. They don't need that. Most of them realise - 23 most of the sub-branches, the Executive members, they 24 realise that. 25 26 Q. I think you're referring, is this right, to the 27 retention of some of the moneys that are gathered from the 28 public in the sub-branch jurisdiction? 29 A. Up to 50 per cent, yes. 30 31 Q. So even the wealthy ones are keeping the 50 per cent; 32 is that right? 33 A. I haven't got down to the point where I've discussed 34 that aspect with them, but I do know that once they receive 35 their returns in, in their next donation plan, they are 36 more generous in certain areas. It's not for me to point 37 them in whatever direction. For instance, if I was to say 38 here at the Inquiry that I'd like to see them donate more 39 money to the Kokoda Track Memorial Walkway, I'd be 40 criticised, because it's not part of - it's part of the RSL 41 family but not in the RSL. So they are very - they may 42 have their special needs. They may look towards helping 43 Vietnam veterans or Korean veterans. The issue we have at 44 present is that we are not being able to identify fully the 45 needs of the younger veterans and we need them to step 46 forward and assist us with that. 47 .28/09/2017 (16) 1841 J E HAINES Transcript produced by DTI

1 Q. But coming back to the process by which the funds from 2 the public are dealt with, the sub-branches who are wealthy 3 do not need to retain any of the public's money in their 4 coffers; that's right, isn't it? 5 A. That's a perfect world, I think I said. That's the 6 perfect world. 7 8 Q. It may not even be perfect. It may just be realistic, 9 mightn't it? 10 A. It might be. Probably if I was standing for election, 11 I probably wouldn't promote that, but I think -- 12 13 Q. This is not politics. This is an Inquiry. Some 14 people might say it isn't. 15 A. Well, I'm probably here because of the politics, 16 but -- 17 18 Q. I understand. 19 A. -- I agree, and the ones that I speak to are very 20 generous. When I was present, they'd come in with a 21 donation plan. It wasn't for me to suggest one way or the 22 other, but they were also looking for guidance, and I think 23 that we have been falling down in that way. 24 25 The other way, of course, is that they are less prone 26 to give money to WBI because WBI, at one stage, was less - 27 was less than enthusiastic about telling us what they were 28 doing with money. 29 30 Q. So you want transparency in the use of the money, and 31 you can imagine that the public might like that as well? 32 A. I think there's an opportunity for members of the 33 public with special qualifications to be part of the 34 process of distributing the money. 35 36 Q. Yes. So the decision-making as to how the money is 37 distributed to care for the veterans -- 38 A. Is one. 39 40 Q. -- you say the members of the public with special 41 skills who might in the future apply to assist should be 42 embraced and assist with the distribution decisions; is 43 that right? 44 A. Yes. As I've indicated before, some of our best 45 supporters do not wear the RSL badge. They are members of 46 the RSL family, and I don't necessarily mean our wives and 47 our partners; there are people who have an interest in .28/09/2017 (16) 1842 J E HAINES Transcript produced by DTI

1 helping veterans. They are some of our best supporters, 2 and they have special qualifications. As I said, I was 3 never interested in the aged care, I don't have that 4 ability, but there's many people out there that do that I'm 5 sure would do a good job. They don't necessarily have to 6 be a State Councillor. 7 8 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Thank you for that explanation. That 9 was of assistance. 10 11 Anything arising? 12 13 Q. Mr Haines, that brings us to the end of your evidence. 14 Is there anything in addition that you might like to tell 15 me? 16 A. Madam Inquirer, this has been some very difficult 17 times for the RSL and the ex-service movement. I just hope 18 that our members and the members of the general community 19 will forgive any shortcomings that we have had, certainly 20 help us help others. I would just like to thank you and 21 Mr Cheshire for the courtesy extended to me whilst I've 22 been here. 23 24 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Thank you, Mr Haines. You may step 25 down. 26 27 <THE WITNESS WITHDREW 28 29 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Yes, Mr Cheshire? 30 31 MR CHESHIRE: Tomorrow we have Ms Sheridan, the auditor. 32 33 PUBLIC INQUIRER: The auditor of RSL (NSW)? 34 35 MR CHESHIRE: And WBI. 36 37 PUBLIC INQUIRER: And next week? 38 39 MR CHESHIRE: Yes, Madam Inquirer, I'm glad you asked me 40 that. Monday is a public holiday. On Tuesday will be 41 Mr Stephenson and Mr Murray, and then on Wednesday, 42 Mr White. 43 44 PUBLIC INQUIRER: I will adjourn until 10 o'clock tomorrow. 45 46 AT 2.45PM THE HEARING WAS ADJOURNED TO 47 FRIDAY, 29 SEPTEMBER 2017 AT 10AM .28/09/2017 (16) 1843 J E HAINES Transcript produced by DTI