COPYRIGHT RESERVED Note: Copyright in this transcript is reserved to the Department of Finance, Services and Innovation. The reproduction, except under authority from the Department of Finance, Services and Innovation, of the contents of this transcript for any purpose other than the conduct of these proceedings is prohibited. INQUIRY UNDER THE CHARITABLE FUNDRAISING ACT 1991 Public Hearing Held at Level 3, LPI Building Queens Square 1 Prince Albert Road Sydney, New South Wales On Friday, 6 October 2017 at 10am (Day 21) BEFORE: The Public Inquirer, The Hon. P A Bergin SC Anthony Cheshire SC Ms Michelle Rabsch Mr Enzo Camporeale .06/10/2017 (21) 2414 Transcript produced by DTI

1 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Yes, Mr Cheshire. 2 3 MR CHESHIRE: Thank you, Madam Inquirer. Two matters of 4 housekeeping. Further matters to be added to the tender. 5 I seek for that list to be marked for identification which 6 I think is P. 7 8 PUBLIC INQUIRER: It is. This will become MFI-P. 9 10 MFI-P DOCUMENT CONSISTING OF ADDITIONS TO EXHIBIT 1, 11 VOLUME 2; EXHIBIT 8, VOLUME 3; EXHIBIT 10, VOLUME 1 12 AND EXHIBIT 13 13 14 MR CHESHIRE: Then there is a bundle of material marked 15 "RSL National" which I will tender, which I think is 16 Exhibit 23. 17 18 PUBLIC INQUIRER: That will become Exhibit 23. 19 20 EXHIBIT #23 BUNDLE OF MATERIAL MARKED "RSL NATIONAL" 21 22 MR CHESHIRE: I'm grateful. I propose to call 23 Dennis Cowdroy. 24 25 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Yes, Mr Cowdroy, please come into the 26 witness box. 27 28 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Thank you, Mr Cowdroy, please take a 29 seat. 30 31 <DENNIS ANTILL COWDROY, sworn: 32 33 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Yes, Mr Cheshire: 34 35 MR CHESHIRE: Thank you, 36 37 <EXAMINATION BY MR CHESHIRE: 38 39 MR CHESHIRE: Q. Sir, would you give the Inquiry your 40 full name please? 41 A. Yes, Dennis Antill Cowdroy. 42 43 Q. You are a resident of Sydney? 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. Your current occupation? 47 A. Barrister. .06/10/2017 (21) 2415 D A COWDROY (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 2 Q. You, I understand, have had an association with the 3 various RSL entities for a long time; correct? 4 A. Yes, I have. 5 6 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. I think, Mr Cowdroy, before we 7 proceed, you are here of your own volition and not 8 according to a summons? 9 A. That's correct. 10 11 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Yes, Mr Cheshire. I'm sorry to 12 interrupt. 13 14 MR CHESHIRE: Q. When did you first have an association 15 with any of the various RSL entities? 16 A. In 1973, I think it was, I met Sir Colin Hines, who 17 was then the State President of New South Wales, and 18 Mr Warren Osmond OBE, who was the State Secretary. I met 19 them through a solicitor, the late Mr Donald, who had been 20 the honorary solicitor for many years. 21 22 Q. After meeting them, did that lead anywhere? 23 A. Yes. They asked me if I would become the junior 24 counsel for the League. 25 26 Q. When you say the League, is that -- 27 A. State Branch. 28 29 Q. -- what we have been calling RSL (NSW)? 30 A. That's correct. 31 32 Q. At that time you were a practising barrister? 33 A. Yes, I was. 34 35 Q. Your appointment as junior counsel to the State 36 Branch, was that for a particular case or matter or was 37 that effectively an ongoing position? 38 A. An ongoing position for matters that required the 39 services of a barrister. 40 41 Q. Was that to be on a paid basis or as an honorary? 42 A. Honorary basis. 43 44 Q. You continued in that role, did you? 45 A. Yes, I did. 46 47 Q. Did that role change at some time? .06/10/2017 (21) 2416 D A COWDROY (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 A. Yes. When I took silk in 1989 they then asked me to 2 be their honorary senior counsel. 3 4 Q. So that then was effectively similar to the role you 5 have been performing before but as senior counsel rather 6 than junior counsel? 7 A. That's correct. 8 9 Q. You then continued in that role for a period; correct? 10 A. Yes. Until 1998, when I was appointed to the bench. 11 12 Q. So, at that stage, your appointment as honorary senior 13 counsel to the State Branch ceased; is that correct? 14 A. Yes, I felt I couldn't continue in view of the 15 judicial role. 16 17 Q. Up until that date, would it be right that you had 18 been providing advice from time to time on a number of 19 issues? 20 A. Yes, many issues. 21 22 Q. When you say "many issues", would that mean there was 23 at least one a year, on average? 24 A. It would be more than that. Issues arose from time to 25 time concerning the Constitution, the interpretation of the 26 Constitution. Issues arose concerning matters involving 27 RSL clubs and the State Branch. 28 29 Q. Did any of them become litigious? 30 A. Yes. 31 32 Q. Did you appear in those types of matters? 33 A. Yes, I did. One in particular I remember was relating 34 to the sale of the Anzac House, which was then located in 35 College Street. That required proceedings in equity. 36 37 Q. That's an involvement with RSL (NSW) up until 1998. 38 Did you have any involvement with RSL National prior to 39 that date? 40 A. Yes. In 1995, I was appointed as a National Trustee 41 which relates solely to the national body. 42 43 Q. When you say a National Trustee, what is that? What 44 does the National Trustee do? 45 A. There are six National Trustees appointed. Two of 46 them are appointed for life, and I was appointed for life. 47 The role of the National Trustees is to administer .06/10/2017 (21) 2417 D A COWDROY (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 charitable trusts which fall within the purview of the RSL. 2 3 Q. And that is RSL National rather than RSL (NSW)? 4 A. Yes, it has nothing to do with the RSL (NSW). 5 6 Q. Did that appointment continue after your appointment 7 to the bench? 8 A. Yes, it did. 9 10 Q. Did you provide any legal advice to RSL National 11 during that time? 12 A. I provided to RSL National - no, they had their 13 own - they had their own lawyer. 14 15 Q. What about RSL LifeCare, did you have any involvement 16 with that organisation prior to 1998? 17 A. No. 18 19 Q. Were you yourself a member of the RSL? 20 A. I was made an honorary member for life in the 21 1990s - or it might have been earlier than that. It might 22 have been the 80s, but anyway -- 23 24 Q. Around about that time. 25 A. I think I joined it at one stage in about 2000, but 26 that's the extent of my involvement. 27 28 Q. Were you a member of a sub-branch? 29 A. Well, the State Branch. They had members attached to 30 the State Branch. 31 32 Q. So you were just attached to the State Branch? 33 A. Yes. 34 35 Q. After your elevation to the bench, am I right that 36 providing legal advice to any of the RSL entities ceased 37 for a time? 38 A. Yes, it did. 39 40 Q. Then I think you retired from the Federal Court in 41 March of 2014; is that correct? 42 A. That's correct, yes. 43 44 Q. At that time then did you resume private practice as a 45 barrister? 46 A. I did. 47 .06/10/2017 (21) 2418 D A COWDROY (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 Q. At that stage you became at least eligible, from your 2 viewpoint, to resume providing legal services to RSL 3 entities; correct? 4 A. Yes, but I must say I felt that I had grown away from 5 providing them advice because they had a full-time lawyer. 6 7 Q. Being full-time in-house? 8 A. Well, they had - as I recall it, they had two. They 9 had a Mr Bowen and they also had a Mr Cannings. 10 11 Q. Both of those gentlemen being, as you understood it, 12 honorary solicitors? 13 A. I knew that Mr Cannings was given the title of 14 honorary solicitor, but I didn't know what arrangements 15 there were between him and the League. 16 17 Q. Had you had any involvement with Mr Bowen or 18 Mr Cannings prior to 1998? 19 A. No. 20 21 Q. After your retirement from the bench in 2014, when did 22 you resume any dealings with any of the RSL entities? 23 A. Well, they would always - in the period when I was 24 serving on the bench, I would be invited to go to 25 ceremonies and their annual dinner and I would try and do 26 that, but I had no contact with them in relation to any 27 legal issue until I think it was December 2014. 28 29 Q. I will come on to ask you about that specifically. 30 You're aware that in December 2014 there were discussions 31 with you about Mr Rowe; correct? I'll come to ask you 32 about those details, but are you aware of that? 33 A. Sorry, aware of what? 34 35 Q. Are you aware that in December of 2014 there was a 36 meeting at your chambers where various matters were 37 discussed relating to the RSL? 38 A. Yes. 39 40 Q. Prior to that date, had there been any discussions 41 with you about legal issues relating to the RSL after you'd 42 left the Federal Court? 43 A. No. 44 45 Q. So this, then, was the first matter? 46 A. First contact, yes. 47 .06/10/2017 (21) 2419 D A COWDROY (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 Q. How was that contact with you initiated? 2 A. I can't recall who made the - I can't recall whether 3 Mr Cannings spoke to me and asked if I would have a meeting 4 because a problem had arisen in the RSL (NSW). 5 6 Q. This was Mr Cannings who you had had no professional 7 dealings with before; is that correct? 8 A. No, none at all. I had met him at ceremonies and 9 social functions held by the RSL (NSW). 10 11 Q. So you knew that he was the honorary solicitor? 12 A. Yes. 13 14 Q. He asked to meet you, did he, because a problem had 15 arisen, to the best of your recollection? 16 A. Yes. 17 18 Q. Was that organised through your clerk or did you speak 19 to him? 20 A. I can't recall that, but I do know we made 21 arrangements to meet in the conference room at my chambers. 22 23 Q. A meeting did take place on 19 December 2014? 24 A. Yes. I can't recall the date, but I can recall a 25 meeting. 26 27 Q. Does that date sound about right? 28 A. Yes. Yes. 29 30 Q. At that meeting, to your recollection, who was 31 present? 32 A. My recollection is that Mr Cannings was present and 33 Mr Stephenson. I have seen the email which has been sent 34 to me stating that Mr White was present, but I don't recall 35 any - I don't recall him being there. He may have been. 36 37 Q. There is I think a suggestion that he was there for a 38 time and then left. 39 A. That could be right, yes. 40 41 Q. Do you remember whether you met Mr Stephenson and 42 Mr Cannings together, or whether you had one and then the 43 other? 44 A. I think they were together. 45 46 Q. Do you recall whether when they left, did they leave 47 together or did one leave and then you had another .06/10/2017 (21) 2420 D A COWDROY (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 discussion with the other? 2 A. I can't recall. 3 4 Q. During the course of that meeting, do you recall the 5 subject matter of the discussion? 6 A. Yes, I do. 7 8 Q. What did you discuss? 9 A. What had happened was that Mr Rowe had resigned, and 10 I was told that he had resigned because of ill-health. 11 Mr Rod White had then become - from memory, that was 12 towards the end of the year, September or thereabouts. 13 Then Mr White had taken over. He hadn't been there very 14 long and then he was appointed National President, so the 15 role of President fell on to the shoulders of 16 Mr Stephenson, Mr Peter Stephenson. At the same time, 17 there were allegations being raised of misappropriation, so 18 the meeting was held, as I understood it, to try to work 19 out what should be done. 20 21 Q. Had you become aware, through your ordinary contact 22 with the RSL, that Mr Rowe had resigned? 23 A. Yes. 24 25 Q. Had you seen the announcement that said that he had 26 resigned? 27 A. I can't recall seeing an announcement, but I remember 28 I was surprised when I learnt that he resigned, but then I 29 was told he'd resigned because of ill-health. 30 31 Q. When you say you were "told", was that through 32 ordinary contact or was that at a meeting? 33 A. No, I think through ordinary - no, there was no 34 meeting. Through ordinary contact. Through the paper or 35 through contact. 36 37 Q. Prior to this meeting on 19 December, you were already 38 aware that Mr Rowe had resigned? 39 A. Yes. 40 41 Q. It was your understanding that he had resigned on the 42 basis of ill-health? 43 A. Yes. 44 45 Q. Then at the meeting on 19 December, do you recall who 46 it was that was providing information to you, was it 47 Mr Cannings or Mr Stephenson? .06/10/2017 (21) 2421 D A COWDROY (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 A. Both. I think Mr Cannings laid out succinctly that 2 there was an issue because there were allegations that 3 money had been wrongfully taken. 4 5 Q. At that stage Mr Stephenson, you understood, was the 6 Acting State President? 7 A. Yes. 8 9 Q. To the best of your recollection then, Mr Cannings 10 said that there were allegations that Mr Rowe had 11 misappropriated funds; is that right? 12 A. I think Mr Rowe, and I'm not sure whether there wasn't 13 a suggestion of other moneys, other persons being involved. 14 15 Q. Do you remember either positions or the identity of 16 those persons? 17 A. No. 18 19 Q. In relation to Mr Rowe, apart from a general statement 20 of misappropriation of funds, was there anybody else that 21 was discussed? 22 A. Not that I recall. 23 24 Q. Do you remember any suggestions about mobile phone 25 bills? 26 A. Yes, I do. I remember there was a comment that there 27 was - it seemed that he had five mobile phones all being 28 charged to the RSL. 29 30 Q. With the suggestion that some of them were not for 31 him? 32 A. Yes. 33 34 Q. What about cash withdrawals, do you remember any 35 discussion about that? 36 A. I don't specifically recall cash withdrawals. 37 38 Q. Airfares? 39 A. No, I don't, not that I recall. I do recall there was 40 something to the effect that a family member had been using 41 the RSL's suite at its motel. 42 43 Q. At the Hyde Park Inn? 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. Do you remember any further details about that? 47 A. I think it was said that his son had been occupying it .06/10/2017 (21) 2422 D A COWDROY (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 virtually full-time. 2 3 Q. In the context of Mr Rowe, there was the phone bills 4 and there was the -- 5 A. The use of mobile phones. 6 7 Q. Yes. 8 A. And the use of the suite at the Hyde Park Inn. 9 10 Q. Do you remember any suggestion that Mr Rowe was using 11 the RSL credit card, effectively, to sustain his life? 12 A. No, no, I don't specifically - I don't recall that. 13 14 Q. Do you recall was the tenor of the meeting and what 15 was being said to you that Mr Rowe had done these things or 16 that it looked as if he had, or that there were just 17 allegations that had been made? 18 A. The implication was there were serious allegations of 19 potentially fraud. 20 21 Q. And that they appeared at least to have some weight 22 behind them; is that right? 23 A. Well, that was the allegations. I did not know what 24 strength they had. 25 26 Q. In terms of the way it was presented to you, was -- 27 A. It appeared to be a problem. 28 29 Q. Yes. 30 A. Yes. 31 32 Q. To your understanding, why had they come to you? 33 A. I think they saw me as being one who had had a long 34 association with the RSL, who had looked after their legal 35 interests in the past and they wanted to get, I suppose, 36 some direction as to what should happen. That's what 37 I interpreted the meeting as. 38 39 Q. You would see, at least today, the coincidence between 40 Mr Rowe leaving and these allegations, in terms of the 41 coincidence of time, as suggesting that there might have 42 been some link between the two? 43 A. I didn't know that. 44 45 Q. No, but you would recognise that today, at least, the 46 coincidence of time might suggest that? 47 A. Well, I suppose at that stage it seems that there .06/10/2017 (21) 2423 D A COWDROY (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 could have been a link. 2 3 Q. Was there any discussion at that meeting about a 4 possible link between the expenses and Mr Rowe leaving? 5 A. I can't recall. 6 7 Q. Do you recall whether at any stage you formed the view 8 that perhaps Mr Rowe had left because of this issue with 9 his expenses? 10 A. Yes. I'm thinking about that now. I think that 11 was - I think that was the very clear suggestion, that 12 there may have been more to it than simply ill-health for 13 his resignation. 14 15 Q. When you say that there may have been that suggestion, 16 that suggestion came at the meeting on 19 December? 17 A. Yes. 18 19 Q. Do you recall what advice you or Mr Cannings gave as 20 to what Mr Stephenson should do? 21 A. Yes. At that time, it seemed that the matters were in 22 a state of flux. I felt sorry for Mr Stephenson because 23 I felt he had been propelled into something which was well 24 and truly beyond his expertise. He came from the country 25 and I don't think he had any business experience. So 26 I suggested that they should have an accountant, an 27 accountants firm go and do a forensic audit to find out 28 what the truth was, because at this stage things seemed to 29 be very early in the piece. They seemed to be allegations 30 and I felt there needed to be some clear fact as to whether 31 there had been, in fact, misappropriations. 32 33 Q. Was there any discussion as to who should carry out 34 that audit? 35 A. Not that I recall. I remember suggesting there should 36 be a firm of accountants, that's all. 37 38 Q. Are you aware now that there was an audit that was 39 then carried out by Grant Thornton? 40 A. Yes, I am. 41 42 Q. You are aware now, I think, that Grant Thornton were 43 also the audit of RSL (NSW)? 44 A. I wasn't aware of that. 45 46 Q. If I tell you that they were, and are, was there any 47 discussion, to your recollection, as to whether that audit .06/10/2017 (21) 2424 D A COWDROY (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 of Mr Rowe's expenses should be carried out by their 2 ordinary auditors or not? 3 A. There was no discussion about it, but had I been 4 asked, I would have said that it should be someone 5 completely independent. 6 7 Q. There is a suggestion that there was suggestion about 8 a Chinese wall being erected? 9 A. I don't recall that. 10 11 Q. But your view is that if you'd been asked, you would 12 have said very clearly that it shouldn't be the auditors, 13 it should be somebody else? 14 A. Yes, exactly. 15 16 Q. What about the period of the audit, was there any 17 discussion as to how far back it should go? 18 A. No. No. 19 20 Q. If you had been asked, what would your view have been? 21 A. I would have taken it back to the time that Mr Rowe 22 was appointed. 23 24 Q. What about issues of confidentiality? Was that 25 discussed? 26 A. Yes, and I suggested that this should remain 27 confidential. 28 29 Q. When you say "confidential", confidential to whom? 30 A. Confidential to the State Council until the facts were 31 known as to whether the allegations could be 32 substantiated - in other words, whether the forensic audit 33 produced evidence to show that, in fact, there were 34 unauthorised withdrawals. 35 36 Q. Just to be clear, when you spoke of confidentiality, 37 you weren't suggesting that Mr Stephenson should keep this 38 from his other State Councillors? 39 A. No. 40 41 Q. You weren't suggesting that they should keep this 42 confidential forever? 43 A. Certainly not, but I felt until the facts were known, 44 it was important to keep it confidential for a couple of 45 reasons. Firstly, I was concerned that allegations of 46 misappropriation could have resulted in claims for 47 defamation and also it would not have achieved - the .06/10/2017 (21) 2425 D A COWDROY (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 investigators might not have got the cooperation they 2 needed from people who were being investigated if it was 3 made public, and documents might have disappeared if it was 4 known that an Inquiry was going to be forthcoming. 5 6 Q. To your view, it needed to be kept confidential within 7 State Council? 8 A. Yes, until the result of the investigation was known. 9 10 Q. Do you remember any discussion about whether there 11 should be any contact with the RSL National? 12 A. No. 13 14 Q. As to whether anybody should or shouldn't contact 15 Mr Doolan? 16 A. No, I don't recall, no. 17 18 Q. Do you recall whether there was any discussions as to 19 the terms of reference for the review of Mr Rowe's 20 expenses? 21 A. No, that was not - that didn't come into our 22 discussion at all. 23 24 Q. Was anybody drafting up such terms of reference during 25 the meeting with you? 26 A. No. 27 28 Q. And you weren't advising on the terms of reference? 29 A. No. 30 31 Q. Can I then show you the email which I think you've 32 seen a copy of. 33 A. Yes. 34 35 Q. Could the witness be provided with Exhibit 10, 36 Volume 1. Would you turn to page 104, KM.02.0000080. 37 A. Yes. 38 39 Q. You will see that this is dated 21 December 2014? 40 A. Yes. 41 42 Q. Which was the Sunday, referring back in the body of 43 the email to the meeting on the Friday, which would have 44 been 19 December? 45 A. Yes. 46 47 Q. You will see reference to the meeting. This is from .06/10/2017 (21) 2426 D A COWDROY (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 Mr Cannings to Mr Stephenson, copied to you. Mr Cannings 2 there sets out, as he calls it, some recommendations on the 3 terms of the engagement of a forensic accountant. Do you 4 see that? 5 A. Yes. 6 7 Q. Am I right that those issues, the terms of reference, 8 as you say, were not discussed during the meeting with you; 9 is that correct? 10 A. I don't recall them being discussed. 11 12 Q. Do you recall receiving this email? 13 A. To be quite frank, I don't, but I have no doubt if 14 it's addressed to me, it came to me. 15 16 Q. Do you recall on 21 December, were you still working 17 in chambers with access to your email address? 18 A. I would have had an email - I would have had the email 19 address, there's no question about that. 20 21 Q. Is it likely then that you did read this email on or 22 about 21 or 22 December? 23 A. I have no doubt it came to me. I probably skim read 24 it and saw that it in general terms reflected what we had 25 discussed at the meeting. 26 27 Q. But did you at any time give advice in relation to the 28 content of the email? 29 A. Not that I recall. 30 31 Q. You will see, for instance, in the first paragraph, 32 after the bit that I've read to you, it says: 33 34 One matter which Dennis and I discussed 35 separately, is that this matter should be 36 treated as "Confidential" whilst the review 37 is undertaken ... 38 39 A. Yes. 40 41 Q. Just pausing there, that suggests there was a separate 42 discussion between you and Mr Cannings? 43 A. Well, that may have taken place if Mr Stephenson left 44 earlier, but I can't recall that. 45 46 Q. Mr White left earlier. 47 A. That's right. .06/10/2017 (21) 2427 D A COWDROY (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 2 Q. Mr Stephenson was at the meeting with you and 3 Mr Cannings? 4 A. Yes. 5 6 PUBLIC INQUIRER: As Mr Cowdroy said, Mr Stephenson may 7 have left. 8 9 MR CHESHIRE: Q. I'm sorry, yes. It was Mr White 10 earlier that I suggested had left, but Mr Stephenson may 11 also have left. 12 13 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. Leaving you and Mr Cannings 14 together? 15 A. Yes. 16 17 MR CHESHIRE: Q. But you don't recall that? 18 A. Yes, there was no separate meeting. It may have been 19 a continuation of that meeting, but there's only one 20 occasion that I was involved in any meeting over this 21 issue. 22 23 Q. You will see that then Mr Cannings continues to 24 describe what he means by confidentiality. He says 25 State Councillors should be advised that, if information is 26 sought from them, their response should be, "On legal 27 advice, no comment can be made at this time". That was 28 your understanding; is that right? 29 A. No, I can't say I specifically recall that, but 30 I would have thought that was appropriate. 31 32 Q. Then do you see in paragraph 1(a) -- 33 A. Yes. 34 35 Q. -- there is reference to the report only going back 36 one year; do you see that? 37 A. Yes, I do. 38 39 Q. Am I right that your evidence is that you did not give 40 advice on that being the appropriate period? 41 A. No. I wouldn't have regarded it as appropriate, but 42 I think I probably - the position I took was that 43 Mr Cannings was advising them virtually daily, so I thought 44 he had a better understanding of what was required than me. 45 46 Q. Were you effectively taking the position, "Well, if 47 somebody asks me explicitly to give advice, then I will .06/10/2017 (21) 2428 D A COWDROY (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 consider and discuss and give advice"? 2 A. Yes. 3 4 Q. "But apart from that, as long as it appears to be 5 generally sensible, then I won't intervene"? 6 A. That's the extent of it, because I'd been provided 7 with no documentation, no paperwork, so I couldn't give 8 any, shall I say, detailed advice, nor was I asked to. 9 10 Q. For instance, the phone bills or the credit card 11 statements weren't provided to you; is that right? 12 A. No. 13 14 Q. They weren't provided? 15 A. No, they weren't provided. I never saw any 16 documentation. 17 18 Q. Then over on page 105, do you see: 19 20 It should be noted to the Reviewer that 21 he/she: 22 23 (a) is not being engaged to carry out an 24 investigation to determine whether a 25 disciplinary offence has occurred. 26 27 Do you see that? 28 A. Yes, I do. 29 30 Q. Do you recall whether you gave advice in relation to 31 that issue? 32 A. I don't recall giving advice in relation to that issue 33 at all, but I am aware that within the RSL they had a 34 disciplinary procedure. They had a Board of Inquiry they 35 could set up if there appeared to be some issue. 36 37 Q. In the context of an audit being sought, is that 38 advice that you would have given, that the audit should not 39 comment upon whether a disciplinary offence has occurred? 40 A. Well, I'm conscious that accountants give advice of an 41 accounting nature, it's not their role to determine legal 42 issues. 43 44 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. If Mr Rowe had left, in fact, 45 resigned from the organisation -- 46 A. Yes. 47 .06/10/2017 (21) 2429 D A COWDROY (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 Q. -- the Board of Inquiry would not have jurisdiction 2 over him? 3 A. I don't know. I wasn't asked to consider that. 4 Frankly, I don't know. 5 6 Q. The Board of Inquiry probably, in the circumstances, 7 would be looking at people who are still within the RSL 8 misbehaving themselves, allegedly? 9 A. Yes. 10 11 Q. But at this stage, it may have been that there was no 12 jurisdiction to look into it for disciplinary offences? 13 A. If it turned out that in fact the audit produced 14 irregularities, I would have thought that the State Council 15 would have referred that matter to the appropriate police. 16 17 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Yes, thank you. 18 19 MR CHESHIRE: Q. Did you have any discussion with 20 Mr Stephenson and Mr Cannings about whether any discussions 21 about Mr Rowe should be held in committee or out of 22 committee? 23 A. That, to my - I have no recollection of any such 24 discussion taking place. 25 26 Q. What about as to whether, effectively, what was 27 happening with Mr Rowe should be kept out of the minutes, 28 was there any discussion about that? 29 A. No, there wasn't. 30 31 Q. Would you have given such advice? 32 A. No, I think the fact is, if it required a reference to 33 him, it should have been incorporated in the minutes. 34 35 Q. Are you aware that the RSL (NSW) in addition to 36 State Council had a State Executive? 37 A. No, I'm aware they have a State Council. 38 39 Q. Yes. 40 A. I'm not aware there's a separate executive. 41 42 Q. All right. If I tell you that there is, are you aware 43 that there was a meeting of a State organ, let's call it 44 that for the moment, on 22 December about this issue? 45 A. No. 46 47 Q. Were you aware that, in fact, then RSL (NSW) did .06/10/2017 (21) 2430 D A COWDROY (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 proceed to engage Grant Thornton to carry out the audit? 2 A. I understand that Grant Thornton were engaged. 3 4 Q. When did you get that understanding? 5 A. Oh, I can't recall, but I think in the time, in the 6 ensuing weeks I learnt that an investigation would take 7 place. 8 9 Q. After your meeting on 19 December, it appears then 10 that there were at lest some further discussions that you 11 had with somebody about that issue; is that right? 12 A. No, not that I recall. 13 14 Q. Where do you think you gained your understanding that 15 there was to be an audit from? 16 A. Through discussions with potentially the other people 17 in the RSL. 18 19 Q. Am I right that the understanding that you gained as 20 to what then was happening with the investigation, was from 21 informal discussions -- 22 A. Yes. 23 24 Q. -- rather than from any sense of formality? 25 A. Yes. I learnt that the suggestion was taken up and I 26 was happy with that. 27 28 Q. If I tell you that after the report being 29 commissioned, the report was produced on 23 January, it was 30 considered at a meeting of State Council on 27 January, and 31 then there was a resolution passed in respect of Mr Rowe's 32 expenses on 27 February. Were you aware around that time 33 of that progress? 34 A. No, not at all. I had no further involvement after 35 the meeting in my chambers on or about 19 December. 36 37 Q. When the meeting concluded, was it your expectation 38 that, given that they had come to you to ask, effectively, 39 what to do, that once they had done it, they would come 40 back to you and seek further guidance? 41 A. Not necessarily, because my role had been wound down 42 in the past 12 years, or 10 years, or so - in fact, it was 43 16 years, so I had had very little to do with the RSL and I 44 was virtually very much on the fringe. 45 46 Q. Somebody had obviously thought that this matter was 47 serious enough to seek your counsel in December? .06/10/2017 (21) 2431 D A COWDROY (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. So you would have expected that at least if there was 4 any uncertainty about what to do, that they would have come 5 back to you? 6 A. I don't know about that. As I said, I knew they had 7 two solicitors acting for them, Mr Bowen and Mr Cannings. 8 9 Q. You mentioned earlier about reporting matters to the 10 appropriate police? 11 A. Yes. 12 13 Q. Do you recall any discussion about it? 14 A. No, I don't recall any discussion about that because 15 at this stage it was, effectively, very premature. 16 No-one - I think the fact is no-one in the RSL knew what 17 was happening or what had gone on. 18 19 Q. Did you at some stage become aware that a resolution 20 had been passed as to what to do with Mr Rowe? 21 A. No. 22 23 Q. Are you aware that he was in fact asked to pay back 24 certain expenses? 25 A. I'm not sure if I'd heard that later on, but I was 26 never kept up to date with resolutions of the 27 State Council. In fact, as I said, I had nothing to do 28 with the matter after that time, after December 2014. 29 30 Q. Did you receive copies of the State President's 31 newsletters? 32 A. I certainly got the Reveille magazine. 33 34 Q. All right. What about the annual report, did you 35 receive that or look at that? 36 A. No. 37 38 Q. Do you remember that in the -- 39 A. When I say no, no, I didn't - I don't - I'm not on the 40 mailing list for those. 41 42 Q. Do you remember seeing in the January-February edition 43 of Reveille reference to Mr Rowe having left on the grounds 44 of ill-health? 45 A. I recall something like that, yes. 46 47 Q. Given the discussions you had had on 19 December in .06/10/2017 (21) 2432 D A COWDROY (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 the context of the expenses and something more to his 2 leaving than ill-health, did it occur to you that there 3 might be something about that announcement that was 4 misleading? 5 A. Yes. It engendered some question mark in my mind. 6 7 Q. Did you do anything about that? 8 A. No, because I thought it was under control, because an 9 investigation was going to take place. 10 11 Q. So you assumed that, in the event that something 12 needed to be put in to correct it, it would be done? 13 A. I don't think I ever applied my mind to that. All 14 I knew was an investigation would take place, that 15 investigation would reveal whether or not there had been 16 irregularities and matters would go from you there. 17 18 Q. And nobody ever told you that, effectively, the 19 investigations were at an end; is that right? 20 A. No. 21 22 Q. Would you turn to 117.1. 23 A. In the same volume? 24 25 Q. In the same volume. 117.1, in the bottom right-hand 26 corner. 27 A. 117 -- 28 29 Q. 117.1. 30 A. I'm sorry, yes, it is here. 31 32 Q. It should be RSL.0 2.0077862. 33 A. Yes. 34 35 Q. This is about a different matter. 36 A. Yes. 37 38 Q. You will see the email of 14 January, at the bottom, 39 from Annette Mulliner to Mr Cannings and to yourself. Do 40 you see that? 41 A. Yes. Yes, I do. 42 43 Q. Mr Cannings responded to that on 15 January? 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. Do you recall around this time that there was also 47 discussion with you about the proposed sale of Anzac House? .06/10/2017 (21) 2433 D A COWDROY (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 A. Yes, I do. 2 3 Q. Do you remember whether that was also discussed on 4 19 December? 5 A. I don't believe it was. 6 7 Q. There were discussions with you at least in January of 8 2015 about that issue? 9 A. Yes. Yes. 10 11 Q. Those discussions that you had, did you have them with 12 Mr Cannings? 13 A. I do recall a meeting at Anzac House when the members 14 of the State Council were there, as I understood it, or it 15 might have been the Anzac House Trust Board of Management, 16 I think there was a crossover between some of the 17 memberships, concerning the proposed sale of Anzac House. 18 19 Q. Yes. At that meeting, do you recall that 20 Mr Stephenson was there? 21 A. I can't recall specifically him being there, but I'm 22 sure he would have been, as he was the Acting State 23 President. 24 25 Q. Likewise, Mr Cannings? 26 A. Yes. 27 28 Q. In the context of the discussions about Anzac House, 29 would you also turn to page 221.1, which is RSL.02.0100958? 30 A. Yes, I have that. Yes. 31 32 Q. You will see that email is a little bit later, that is 33 13 February? 34 A. Yes. Yes. 35 36 Q. There you make a recommendation in respect of a 37 valuer? 38 A. Yes. 39 40 Q. And that again was to Mr Cannings? 41 A. To put this in context, I had learnt that they were 42 proposing to sell Anzac House and I was most concerned that 43 the property should not be sold at an undervalue, and that 44 a developer paid the appropriate price. That's why 45 I suggested it had to be valued properly before they 46 entered into any contract. 47 .06/10/2017 (21) 2434 D A COWDROY (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 Q. Given that you were involved in further discussions in 2 January and February 2015 about, if I say, RSL business, 3 albeit here the sale of Anzac House -- 4 A. Yes. 5 6 Q. -- do you not recall the issue of Mr Rowe coming up, 7 at least, in that context? 8 A. No, I don't. The meeting was solely for the 9 Anzac House Trust. 10 11 Q. Even in a passing comment nobody said to you, "Well 12 this is where we're up to with Mr Rowe"? 13 A. The answer is I can't recall any specific conversation 14 about it. 15 16 Q. If there was, to your understanding, it was not, as it 17 were, a full update of where things were up to and what 18 they had then found out? 19 A. No. 20 21 Q. Have you now been able to review the report of 22 Grant Thornton? 23 A. I have seen it. You have sent it to me, the Inquiry 24 sent it to me. I have not read the report. 25 26 Q. Could you go perhaps to page 125 in the bundle that 27 you have. 28 A. Yes. 29 30 Q. KM.02.0000086. 31 A. Yes. 32 33 Q. You will see this is the report of 23 January? 34 A. Yes. 35 36 Q. You will see the conclusions at page 143. 37 A. Yes, I see that. 38 39 Q. Do you see the conclusions that certain transactions 40 outside of State Presidential guidelines as not being 41 appropriate? 42 A. Yes. 43 44 Q. Do you see particular items, hairdressing, insurance, 45 membership, retail and stationery. At 165 is the payment 46 of the Optus accounts, so that's the telephone bills, 47 paying for more people. Then it provides the information .06/10/2017 (21) 2435 D A COWDROY (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 for consideration. Do you see that? 2 A. Sorry, are you on 143? 3 4 Q. Yes, 143. 5 6 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. Paragraph 165. 7 A. Thank you, yes. 8 9 MR CHESHIRE: Q. Those are the telephone bills that we 10 discussed earlier? 11 A. Yes. 12 13 Q. If you had received a copy of this report - and 14 I appreciate you haven't read the rest - if the effect of 15 it was there were at least some items such as hairdressing 16 and the like that are outside of State Presidential 17 guidelines, and the phone bills, yes, he had paid for phone 18 bills of others, what sort of steps would you have been 19 recommending? 20 A. Well, I would imagine that the State Council would 21 have reviewed it and, if necessary, refer it to the 22 appropriate authorities if they considered it constituted 23 theft. 24 25 Q. On the face of it, am I right that in the absence of 26 some evidence that actually persuaded you that it was 27 innocent, then you would have been referring it; would that 28 be right? 29 A. Yes, I would have. 30 31 Q. In order to show that, for instance, paying for phone 32 bills of third parties was innocent, you would require some 33 pretty firm evidence, wouldn't you? 34 A. Yes. 35 36 Q. You became involved again in the context of RSL (NSW) 37 related to the issue of Mr Rowe's expenses in 2017 38 following RSL National having raised a charge sheet; 39 correct? 40 A. Yes. Well, I wasn't - I'm not sure about - I was 41 asked if I would attend a meeting of the National Executive 42 in Canberra in February of this year. 43 44 Q. Yes. What was the purpose of you, as you understood 45 it, being requested to attend the National Executive? 46 A. To try to make a workable arrangement whereby the 47 State Council would stand aside and permit an administrator .06/10/2017 (21) 2436 D A COWDROY (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 to come in. I was told that the National Executive had 2 determined that the State Branch would stand aside and that 3 the State Council were resisting that. 4 5 Q. Did you understand that that related, at least in 6 part, to the issue of Mr Rowe's expenses? 7 A. Well, it certainly related to the management of the 8 State Branch, that probably - I think Mr Rowe's expenses 9 and other issues that I'd heard by then about RSL LifeCare, 10 cast doubt upon the integrity of the State Branch. 11 12 Q. In the bundle you have, would you turn to page 432. 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. This is RSL.05.0710110. 16 A. Yes. Yes, I have that. 17 18 Q. You'll see that's minutes of a State Council meeting 19 on 20 January this year. Do you see that? 20 A. Yes, do. 21 22 Q. Resolve Litigation Lawyers? 23 A. Yes. 24 25 Q. The fourth paragraph, "In Attendance", do you see 26 that? 27 A. Yes, I do. 28 29 Q. You are recorded as being present for the second part 30 of the meeting? 31 A. Yes. 32 33 Q. You can see where that is. If you can turn over the 34 page, you will see you are then recorded as joining, you 35 being JDC? 36 A. Well, yes. I have no recollection of that being 37 passed in my presence at all. 38 39 Q. Hang on. When you say that being passed in your 40 presence, what it appears was passed in your presence was 41 the issue about the mediation? 42 A. I'm sorry, I thought you were looking at the top. 43 44 Q. No. If you look just below that resolution it then 45 says "JDC joins the meeting"? 46 A. Oh, yes, I see. 47 .06/10/2017 (21) 2437 D A COWDROY (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 Q. You joined the meeting after a resolution -- 2 A. Something had happened, yes. 3 4 Q. Something had happened about retaining you? 5 A. Yes. 6 7 Q. Then there was discussion with you about holding a 8 mediation? 9 A. Yes. Yes. 10 11 Q. How did you come to attend this meeting? 12 A. This meeting? 13 14 Q. Yes. 15 A. A phone call from Mr Michael Daniel of 16 Resolve Lawyers. 17 18 Q. Did he tell you that it was in the context of 19 something about Mr Rowe's expenses? 20 A. No. It was more concerned with the relationship that 21 had completely broken down between the National body and 22 the State Branch, the State Branch Council. 23 24 Q. You understand that there was a charge sheet that was 25 raised by RSL National; correct? 26 27 PUBLIC INQUIRER: A show cause notice. 28 29 MR CHESHIRE: Q. A show cause notice. Are you aware of 30 that? 31 A. Yes, I remember - yes, there was. RSL National raised 32 a show cause notice against, I think, if not all, most of 33 the RSL (NSW) State Councillors. 34 35 Q. Do you recall whether you received a copy of that? 36 A. I was certainly shown it. I didn't get it. I had no 37 documentation, but I was shown it. 38 39 Q. Mr Daniel asked you to attend this meeting? 40 A. Yes. 41 42 Q. And you did attend this meeting? 43 A. Yes. 44 45 Q. Do you recall whether there was any discussion about 46 the issue of Mr Rowe's expenses? 47 A. I don't recall that being raised specifically at that .06/10/2017 (21) 2438 D A COWDROY (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 meeting at all. It was more to work out what could be done 2 to see whether the State Council could continue to operate 3 in view of the attitude of the National Executive. 4 5 Q. Can I show you the show cause notice which is at 6 page 415. 7 A. Yes. 8 9 Q. This is is KM.02.0000134? 10 A. Yes. 11 12 Q. That is the show cause notice which has followed with 13 it a charge sheet on the next page? 14 A. Yes. 15 16 Q. Then a statement of facts and evidence? 17 A. Yes, thank you, yes. 18 19 Q. I don't ask you to read all of it, but you can see, 20 for instance, in paragraph 4, it relates to Mr Rowe's 21 resignation? 22 A. Yes. 23 24 Q. And at paragraph 13 -- 25 A. Yes, it comes back to me now. The conduct - the 26 thrust of the National Executive's complaint was that the 27 State Council had been careless and negligent and had 28 attempted to cover up Mr Rowe's expenses. 29 30 Q. Did you have any discussions with anybody about 31 whether there was any substance to those allegations? 32 A. No. As I say, the thrust of the meeting was to try to 33 work out a workable arrangement between the existing 34 State Councillors and the National Executive. 35 36 Q. As you saw it, the best way forward was for a 37 mediation to take place between the two bodies? 38 A. Yes. 39 40 Q. After that meeting, was there any discussion with you 41 about the substance of those issues? 42 A. Not that I recall. 43 44 Q. Do you remember anybody in the context of, as you say, 45 the alleged cover up by the State body -- 46 A. Yes. 47 .06/10/2017 (21) 2439 D A COWDROY (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 Q. Do you remember anybody expressing the view that RSL 2 National knew what was going on? 3 A. Whether RSL National knew? 4 5 Q. Yes. 6 A. No, I don't. 7 8 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. I think you must have seen it. If 9 you have a look at 433, Mr Cowdroy. 10 A. Yes. 11 12 Q. It looks as though by this time you had had a review 13 of the charge sheet and the show cause notice because at 14 least here it is recorded that you - I will withdraw that, 15 that's quite wrong. DMS - I'm not quite sure who that is. 16 17 MR CHESHIRE: Mr McManus-Smith. 18 19 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Mr McManus-Smith. 20 21 Q. Was he at the meeting with you? Do you recall who 22 Mr McManus-Smith is? 23 A. There were gentlemen at the meeting who I didn't know, 24 I didn't know who they were. 25 26 Q. When you suggested that you would be the mediator, did 27 they take that option up? 28 A. Yes, they did. 29 30 Q. Did you mediate? 31 A. Yes. I recall -- 32 33 Q. I won't ask you what happened in the mediation, of 34 course. 35 A. No. I received a phone call from 36 Major General McLoughlin who was the Victorian 37 State President, member of the National Executive, asking 38 if I would attend a meeting the next day, on a Friday. The 39 meeting and the call came about 7 o'clock on the Thursday 40 night, would I attend a meeting next day in Canberra to try 41 to mediate between the National Executive and the 42 State Branch. 43 44 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Thank you. I'm sorry to interrupt, 45 Mr Cheshire. 46 47 THE WITNESS: That meeting did take place. .06/10/2017 (21) 2440 D A COWDROY (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 2 MR CHESHIRE: Q. Apart from the contact that I have 3 shown you in early to 2015 in relation to the sale of 4 Anzac House, did you have any further dealings up until 5 this time with the business of RSL? 6 A. When you say "this time", do you mean -- 7 8 Q. Sorry, the early part of this year, so January, 9 February of this year? 10 A. No, no, I had no involvement at all. 11 12 Q. No contact, even in relation to other issues? 13 A. No. 14 15 Q. I'd asked you about RSL LifeCare prior to 1998. 16 A. Yes. 17 18 Q. Did you have any dealings in relation to the issues of 19 LifeCare after March of 2014? 20 A. No. I've never had any dealings with RSL LifeCare. 21 22 Q. Just so that we're clear, when you discussed the 23 business of RSL (NSW), you haven't had any separate 24 dealings with the business of WBI, the Welfare and 25 Benevolent Institution? 26 A. No. 27 28 Q. Am I right, then, that the only involvement you had in 29 relation to the issue of Mr Rowe's expenses was a meeting 30 on 19 December 2014 and then this meeting in January of 31 this year? 32 A. Yes. 33 34 Q. And that's it? 35 A. That's correct. 36 37 MR CHESHIRE: Thank you very much. Thank you, 38 Madam Inquirer. 39 40 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. Mr Cowdroy, there's an email in 41 that folder at 124, if you would have a look at that. 42 A. Yes. 43 44 Q. This was an email that was not sent to you, as 45 I understand it? 46 A. Yes. 47 .06/10/2017 (21) 2441 D A COWDROY (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 Q. Really, it was from the forensic accountant, or the 2 accountants, to the President's staff? 3 A. Yes. 4 5 Q. Would you have a look at the second-last paragraph? 6 A. Yes, I've read that. 7 8 Q. If you had been given that email, what would your 9 advice have been? 10 A. To do exactly what was suggested. 11 12 Q. To refer it to the police? 13 A. Yes. 14 15 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Anything further? 16 17 MR CHESHIRE: No, thank you, Madam Inquirer. 18 19 MR MELICK: Madam Inquirer, I appear for Mr Doolan. Could 20 I be permitted to ask a couple of questions? 21 22 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Yes, in what area? 23 24 MR MELICK: The relationship between RSL National 25 and (NSW). 26 27 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Yes, of course. 28 29 MR MELICK: And also very briefly to expand upon his 30 answer in relation to reasons for keeping the matter 31 confidential until the inquiries had been completed. 32 33 PUBLIC INQUIRER: All right. Yes, I will allow that 34 Mr Melick. 35 36 MR MELICK: Thank you. 37 38 <EXAMINATION BY MR MELICK: 39 40 MR MELICK: Q. Mr Cowdroy, the relationship between RSL 41 National and State Branches is somewhat convoluted, is it 42 not? 43 A. It is what? 44 45 Q. It is somewhat convoluted? 46 A. It was a very - it had been an excellent relationship 47 for all the years right up to this year, to January this .06/10/2017 (21) 2442 D A COWDROY (Mr Melick) Transcript produced by DTI

1 year. 2 3 Q. Sorry, I wasn't clear enough with my question. 4 RSL National has no control over State branches, does it, 5 State Councils? 6 A. Under the Constitution, there is a framework and it is 7 expected that the sub-branches and, above that, the State 8 Branches will comply with that Constitution. I am aware 9 that the State Branch (NSW) is a separate organisation 10 created by statute. 11 12 Q. The National President is not a member of any of the 13 State Branches? 14 15 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Keep your voice up, please, Mr Melick. 16 17 MR MELICK: I am sorry. 18 19 Q. The National President is not a member of any 20 State Branch - he is not a Board member of a State Branch? 21 A. No, he's not, as far as I know. 22 23 Q. You mentioned reasons for keeping matters confidential 24 until investigations had been completed, one of them being 25 concerns about defamation. Also, would you not consider it 26 a concern for the reputation of RSL for allegations not to 27 be made until evidence had been obtained to prove they were 28 correct or otherwise? 29 A. That was a secondary matter, but the first matter was 30 I felt until the facts were known, it would be most unwise 31 and imprudent to make any investigations public until the 32 facts were known. 33 34 Q. Yes. But it also would have been inadvisable for 35 allegations to be made that turned out later to be 36 incorrect, as far as reputational damage was concerned? 37 A. Well, I think that must follow. 38 39 MR MELICK: I have nothing further, thank you, 40 Madam Inquirer. 41 42 MR CHESHIRE: Madam Inquirer, I'm sorry, Mr Cowdroy may 43 already have given this answer, but I'm concerned that he 44 may not have done. 45 46 MADAM INQUIRER: Yes. 47 .06/10/2017 (21) 2443 D A COWDROY (Mr Melick) Transcript produced by DTI

1 MR CHESHIRE: Q. May I just clarify, in February 2015, 2 you had conversations about the sale of Anzac House? 3 A. Yes. 4 5 Q. Then in January 2017 you had a conference with 6 Resolve Lawyers, which I showed you, with the 7 State Council? 8 A. Yes. 9 10 Q. Did you have anyway dealings with RSL (NSW) at all 11 between those two dates? 12 A. Between? 13 14 Q. February 2015, which is when I showed you the emails 15 about Anzac House -- 16 A. Yes. 17 18 Q. -- and then January of this year when you were 19 approached about the show cause? 20 A. No. 21 22 Q. Nothing whatsoever? 23 A. Nothing. 24 25 Q. Not on any issue? 26 A. Not that I recall, no. 27 28 MR CHESHIRE: Thank you very much. Thank you, 29 Madam Inquirer. 30 31 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. Thank you very much, Mr Cowdroy. 32 A. Thank you, Madam Inquirer. 33 34 <THE WITNESS WITHDREW 35 36 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Yes, Mr Cheshire. 37 38 MR CHESHIRE: I call Mr Ken Doolan. 39 40 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Yes. Come into the witness box, 41 Mr Doolan. Thank you, Mr Cowdroy. 42 43 <KENNETH ALLAN DOOLAN, affirmed: [10.56am] 44 45 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Thank you. Please take a seat, 46 Mr Doolan. 47 .06/10/2017 (21) 2444 K A DOOLAN Transcript produced by DTI

1 Yes, Mr Cheshire. 2 3 <EXAMINATION BY MR CHESHIRE: 4 5 MR CHESHIRE: Q. Would you give the Inquiry your full 6 name, please? 7 A. Yes, Mr Cheshire. Kenneth Allan Doolan. 8 9 Q. Which suburb do you reside in? 10 A. I reside in a place called Carwoola which is a small 11 community in country New South Wales near Canberra. 12 13 Q. Your current occupation? 14 A. I am retired. 15 16 Q. You, I think, have provided to the Inquiry an opening 17 statement in two parts; correct? 18 A. Correct. 19 20 Q. Does that opening statement set out your evidence, to 21 the best of your knowledge, information and belief? 22 A. At this time, yes. 23 24 MR CHESHIRE: Madam Inquirer, I formally tender those. 25 26 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Yes. 27 28 MR CHESHIRE: I will have them added to the RSL National 29 folder, being exhibit 23. 30 31 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Yes. They will be added to the 32 RSL National folder. 33 34 EXHIBIT #23 ADDITION OF OPENING STATEMENT OF 35 KENNETH ALLAN DOOLAN 36 37 MR CHESHIRE: Q. Mr Doolan, there have been allegations 38 recently made in the press about your receipt of a car 39 following resigning from RSL National; correct? 40 A. Correct. 41 42 Q. Am I right that, effectively, it was announced that it 43 was being given to you at your resignation dinner; is that 44 right? 45 A. It was announced after I had stood down, as I've 46 explained in that document that you have in front of you, 47 at that dinner. .06/10/2017 (21) 2445 K A DOOLAN (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 2 Q. Am I right that you felt very uncomfortable about 3 receiving it? 4 A. I felt particularly uncomfortable and I would have 5 preferred that my colleagues had not done so. 6 7 Q. Am I right that you also received other gifts at the 8 same time; is that right? 9 A. There were - if I may explain, Mr Cheshire. The 10 first - let me put it this way. I didn't regard it as a 11 gift, but I didn't regard either as a gift, which I'll go 12 on to explain. There was a set of seven volumes of Cook's 13 voyages, a box about that big. That surprised me, and 14 I wished it hadn't been put forward before me. Be that as 15 it may, it was then announced that they would transfer the 16 car to me. It is best I go on now to perhaps explain to 17 you, if I may, why, as I've said in my statement there, I 18 was lost for words, literally. Perhaps I may explain. 19 I agonised over that particular thing overnight. Why did 20 I agonise an about it? For two reasons. The principal 21 reason was I was agonising on behalf of my wife. I did not 22 discuss it with her and the only reason, as I've given in 23 that statement, why I eventually took the decision that we 24 would go along with it and accept it was because my wife 25 was not a member of the RSL, and this is the key point. 26 She is the daughter of a World War II soldier who fought in 27 both North Africa and, indeed, in Papua New Guinea, and 28 she's the wife of a veteran. She is therefore entitled to 29 be a member of the RSL - not a full member, but an 30 affiliate member of the RSL. She chose not to do that, so 31 she was not a member of the RSL. 32 33 Now, during the presentation speeches, as I've noted 34 in that opening statement, each member of the 35 National Executive stood up and, yes, they were full of 36 paeans of praise for the way I led the RSL for seven years, 37 but more particularly, they were particularly keen to make 38 sure that I understood, that we understood, that what they 39 were doing was, in fact, providing to us, but really to my 40 wife, principally, the car because of what she had done as 41 a non-member of the RSL. Had she been an affiliate member 42 of the RSL, I would not have accepted it. 43 44 Q. I think you say that you and your wife had provided a 45 huge service over the years and not claimed a lot of 46 expenses to which you could have made claim; correct? 47 A. That is correct. .06/10/2017 (21) 2446 K A DOOLAN (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 2 Q. Are you aware as to how the funding of the car has 3 been met? 4 A. No, I had no knowledge of that at all. 5 6 Q. Can I show you a bundle of documents. Am I right that 7 the car was, as you understood it, an RSL National car; 8 correct? 9 A. That was my understanding. 10 11 Q. If you look from the second page of the documents I've 12 handed to you, it looks as if RSL National sent an invoice 13 to RSL State Branch in respect of the car. Do you see 14 that? 15 A. I do indeed. 16 17 Q. Then over the page, it rather looks as if all the 18 States and Territories have been billed to different 19 extent, but in order to pay for the car; correct? 20 A. That's what it reads to me. 21 22 Q. Were you aware of that? 23 A. No, I had no knowledge - I've never seen this 24 document, I had no knowledge of it. 25 26 Q. Does that seem to you appropriate, that the 27 State Branches of the RSL are being required to pay 28 RSL National for the car that was then transferred to you? 29 A. The entire thing, it seems to me, should not have 30 occurred anyway. 31 32 Q. When you say "the entire thing" -- 33 A. In other words, as I have answered already, I would 34 have preferred that the members of the National Board had 35 not so decided. I was put in, I felt, an impossible 36 position. 37 38 Q. I understand that part of it, but when you say that it 39 should not have occurred, would that extend also to the 40 fact that the State Branches should not really have been 41 required to pay for that car? 42 A. I don't really believe I can answer that because I had 43 no party to that. 44 45 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. As a matter of principle, you could 46 answer it? 47 A. If I had been there, Madam Inquirer, as a matter of .06/10/2017 (21) 2447 K A DOOLAN (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 principle, this would not have occurred. 2 3 MR CHESHIRE: Q. When you say "this", it wouldn't have 4 been transferred to you; correct? 5 A. Correct. I would not have agreed with it. Had the 6 National Board said to me, "We have it in mind to transfer 7 that car to you" then I would have said, "Do not do so." 8 9 Q. If, having transferred it, they had said to you, "We 10 think that we should bill the state branches for your car", 11 you would have said, "Well, that doesn't seem right 12 either"? 13 A. No, I would not have agreed with it. 14 15 Q. Do you recall that after Mr Rowe left RSL (NSW), you 16 had some contact with Mr Stephenson; correct? 17 A. My first contact with Mr Stephenson occurred - and 18 I can tell you accurately the date because I was in a 19 hospital bed recovering from surgery on 20 December. 20 21 Q. It was the 20th, was it? 22 A. Yes. 23 24 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. 2014? 25 A. 2014. I beg your pardon. 26 27 Q. That's all right. 28 A. To be precise. 29 30 MR CHESHIRE: Q. Am I right that Mr Stephenson called 31 you and got through to your mobile and then you called him 32 back; is that right? 33 A. That is correct. 34 35 Q. Was your surgery on 19th or the 20th? 36 A. On the 19th. 37 38 Q. Do you recall that he called you on the 19th and you 39 called him back on the 20th? 40 A. That was my recollection, and I had no idea, having 41 been in surgery, what happened during the time that I was 42 in surgery. 43 44 Q. Prior to Mr Stephenson calling you, you had become 45 aware, had you not, that Mr Rowe had resigned from 46 RSL (NSW)? 47 A. Yes. Mr Rowe rang me in late November. I cannot give .06/10/2017 (21) 2448 K A DOOLAN (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 you a date for that because it came out of the blue and it 2 is not recorded in my personal diary. 3 4 Q. What did Mr Rowe say to you? 5 A. Mr Rowe is quite straightforward. He said, "I have to 6 tell you that I have just been to the medical practitioner, 7 but he has told me if I do not go now I'm likely to have 8 serious medical consequences. I am very well and, 9 therefore, I'm resigning from everything, including Deputy 10 National President now, today", to which I responded, 11 because I was aware Mr Rowe had medical problems, I said to 12 him, "Don, don't do anything, just go, and have you my 13 sympathy." 14 15 Q. To your understanding, he rang you on the day on which 16 he resigned from all his various positions; is that right? 17 A. That's my understanding. 18 19 Q. Did it occur to you as being odd that he was resigning 20 that day rather than giving a notice period? 21 A. Not at all, given the circumstances. I had been aware 22 for some time that Mr Rowe had medical difficulties. I'd 23 seen those because on occasions when we were together the 24 medical problems were, without going into them in any 25 detail which I didn't ever at any stage, quite clear to me. 26 To be frank, I had been anticipating Mr Rowe might - 27 I might have been told that he had, you know, suffered 28 something quite dreadful because he was not in a good way. 29 30 Q. You are aware that he had surgery on his leg around 31 that time? 32 A. No, I was not. 33 34 Q. You are aware that he had, could I say, bad legs; 35 correct? 36 A. That's the extent of it. 37 38 Q. His medical conditions, as you understood it, were 39 relating to the condition of his legs; correct? 40 A. And I understood that he had difficulties with his 41 respiration. It was blindingly obvious to anybody that he 42 was considerably overweight and, therefore, I presumed he 43 had blood pressure problems as well. 44 45 Q. When you spoke to Mr Stephenson on 20 December, is it 46 right that you already knew that issues had been raised 47 about Mr Rowe's expenses? .06/10/2017 (21) 2449 K A DOOLAN (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 A. No, it was not. That was the first I heard of that. 2 3 Q. You are aware that there was discussion around this 4 time about the position of Mr Haines; correct? 5 A. Yes, I was. The phone call from Mr Stephenson on the 6 20th covered three topics. 7 8 Q. Yes. 9 A. The first was to tell me that he had taken over as the 10 Acting New South Wales State President, which was a bolt 11 from the blue and surprised me. The second was to tell me 12 why he had taken over, and I queried him about that and he 13 said that Mr Haines, if I recall correctly, had taken an 14 honorarium which was against the State policy and that as a 15 consequence of that, he had stood aside. Mr Stephenson 16 asked me, quite specifically, on the phone, what he should 17 do about that. I said, "Well, I'm not going to give you 18 advice without any evidence about it." So he sent me by 19 email as an attachment a copy of a document which suggested 20 that the knowledge of Mr Haines, having received that 21 honorarium, was known at least by one member of the RSL who 22 had sent in some sort of complaint about it. Mr Stephenson 23 then asked my advice about that matter and I said to 24 Mr Stephenson, "My advice to you is to recommend to 25 Mr Haines that he stand down from the State Council." 26 27 Q. That was all part of the discussion on 20 December; 28 is that right? 29 A. Correct. And the third issue, which I mentioned a 30 moment ago, was that they had discovered some problems with 31 Mr Rowe's credit card use. He went on to say, "We're going 32 to conduct an Inquiry about that", and that was the extent 33 of it. 34 35 Q. Mr Stephenson had been appointed as Acting State 36 President on 12 December, but you say that he hadn't called 37 you until the 19th? 38 A. I had had no communication from Mr Haines or from 39 Mr Stephenson about any of those matters. 40 41 Q. After Mr Rowe left Mr Haines didn't call you to say he 42 had been appointed; is that right? 43 A. No. I had no communication from Mr Haines, I had no 44 communication from Mr Stephenson. 45 46 Q. What about Mr White, did you have any communication 47 with him? .06/10/2017 (21) 2450 K A DOOLAN (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 A. No, I did not. 2 3 Q. In the period, say, in the middle of 2014 and the 4 second half of 2014, did you speak to RSL (NSW) 5 State Councillors from time to time? 6 A. I spoke to everybody in the RSL on a regular basis as 7 much as I could. In 2014, I'd have to check my diary to 8 find out whether I spoke to them. I spoke to councils in 9 session only when invited, and usually then only for 10 specific issues. 11 12 Q. In terms of, for instance, ringing you on your mobile 13 phone, was that something that RSL (NSW) State Councillors 14 did from time to time? 15 A. No, it was not. 16 17 Q. To your understanding, would they have had your mobile 18 number? 19 A. There was no reason why they should not have done, 20 because it was on my small business card which was widely 21 distributed. 22 23 Q. What about Mr White, did he call you from time to 24 time? 25 A. No. 26 27 Q. When you were giving that answer about Mr Haines, you 28 said that you received something on your email and I think 29 you held up your hand. Were you indicating that you 30 received it, effectively, on your phone and looked at it 31 while you were still talking to Mr Stephenson; is that 32 right? 33 A. It was still whilst I was in hospital. No, I think 34 I had - if I recall correctly, I said to him, "What is the 35 substance of the reason for this? You're asking me for my 36 advice as to what you should do, you have to show me why 37 that is the case." He said that there was a quite specific 38 request from him. The other thing he said was, "Listen, 39 I'm brand new in this, I really don't know what I am doing. 40 What's your advice? How you had should I go about this?" 41 He told he there was this allegation. He had this piece of 42 paper and I said, "Send me the copy and let me see it", and 43 he did. 44 45 Q. When he sent it to you, you received it on your phone? 46 A. As I recall, yes. 47 .06/10/2017 (21) 2451 K A DOOLAN (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 Q. In relation to Mr Rowe, the conversation that you had 2 was him indicating there were some problems with Mr Rowe's 3 expenses? 4 A. Of his credit card only. That was the only thing that 5 he raised. 6 7 Q. Did he raise any issue about cash withdrawals? 8 A. No. There was no specifics about that. The reason 9 I didn't ask for specifics was because he told me, as 10 I recall, that they were going to conduct an Inquiry into 11 it. 12 13 Q. Did you at any stage ask him, "Well, how bad is it 14 with Don?" 15 A. No. 16 17 Q. Are you sure that in the conversation when 18 Mr Stephenson rang you, you didn't already know that there 19 was a problem with Mr Rowe's expenses? 20 A. I reaffirmed what I've already told you, that is, that 21 the first I heard of this was on the 20th of December. 22 I knew nothing about it. I had had no contact with it 23 prior to that time. 24 25 Q. At that time, once you knew that there was a problem 26 with Mr Rowe's expenses, did any warning bells or alarm 27 bells go off in your head that there might have been more 28 to Mr Rowe's departure than simply ill-health? 29 A. That warning bell did not go off in my head, but 30 I have to put that into the context that the 31 National President of the RSL is the only person who gets 32 around this entire nation and is expected to know what's 33 going on in every State and every sub-branch. I received 34 throughout my seven years frequent calls from all sorts of 35 people telling me various things. 36 37 Q. Did you receive calls of the type that a 38 State President had potentially been defrauding his 39 expenses? 40 A. No, there was no suggestion at that stage from 41 Mr Stephenson that fraud was involved. I had previously 42 received calls from - I recall one, in fact, from one 43 State President who related instances to me over the phone 44 and I said, "Stop right there, go to the police." 45 46 Q. If what was being raised with you were irregularities 47 about Mr Rowe's use of the credit card, you must have .06/10/2017 (21) 2452 K A DOOLAN (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 understood that that was, at least potentially, involving 2 fraud? 3 A. Yes, I did understand it was potentially involving 4 fraud, but I did not take it further because, as far as 5 I could see, at that time, or understand at that time, they 6 were taking the correct action. That is, an Inquiry was 7 being undertaken. 8 9 Q. Did Mr Stephenson indicate the nature of the Inquiry? 10 A. No, we did not discuss details. 11 12 Q. Mr Stephenson, I think, came to visit you in Canberra 13 in early January; correct? 14 A. On 7 January 2015. 15 16 Q. Between 20 December and 7 January, did you have any 17 discussions with Mr Stephenson about Mr Rowe? 18 A. No, not - put it this way, none that I recall. 19 20 Q. How did Mr Stephenson come to visit you in Canberra? 21 A. Mr Stephenson had taken over the management of a 22 company RSL (NSW) and all that that entailed in 23 circumstances where he was - he gave me to understand that 24 he was ill-prepared, ill-experienced and he was desperately 25 in need of support. I tried to provide that support. 26 27 Q. Did you suggest that he come to see you in Canberra? 28 A. No, he asked to come and see me in Canberra. 29 30 Q. When was that request made to you? 31 A. I do not recall, but I imagine in the early part of 32 January. 33 34 Q. Do you recall other conversations with him after 35 20 December, for instance, just before Christmas, or just 36 after Christmas? 37 A. I do not recall any further conversation after his 38 phone call on the 20th. It may have been the 20th or the 39 21st, but at that stage my focus was on, quite frankly, 40 getting out of hospital. 41 42 Q. Am I right that it is likely that there was a 43 conversation even if just to set up the visit, but you 44 don't remember -- 45 A. I don't recall when it was done, that he contacted me 46 and suggested that he come - whether I suggested he come to 47 Canberra or I go to Sydney, or whatever. Certainly the .06/10/2017 (21) 2453 K A DOOLAN (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 meeting was set up some time between 20 December and 2 7 January. 3 4 Q. When he came to see you in Canberra, you were together 5 for a number of hours; is that right? 6 A. That is correct. 7 8 Q. For about four hours in total? 9 A. I don't recall the exact number of hours. I recall it 10 was a lengthy meeting which covered a wide range of topics, 11 not the least of which was trying to help him understand 12 what he'd just taken on. 13 14 Q. That meeting took in lunch as well; is that right? 15 A. It's more than likely that it did. I don't 16 specifically recall. 17 18 Q. As you say, there were a number of issues that were 19 discussed; correct? 20 A. That is correct. For example, I needed to brief him. 21 He was the acting leader of one of our major branches. At 22 that stage, we were mounting two significant campaigns 23 against the government to change the indexation of 24 veterans' entitlements and to correct what we believe was a 25 very poor outcome from the pay case put before the Defence 26 Force Remuneration Tribunal, supported by the government, 27 and I needed to brief him about those two things and other 28 national matters. 29 30 Q. You also discussed Mr Haines; correct? 31 A. I don't recall, but we probably would have done. 32 33 Q. As you understood it, there being no formal 34 disciplinary nature or anything of that ilk against 35 Mr Haines; correct? 36 A. That was my understanding. If I recall correctly, 37 Mr Stephenson advised me that he had talked to Mr Haines 38 and suggested he stand down from State Council and had told 39 Mr Haines that that suggestion had my backing. Mr Haines 40 had said he would not stand down. 41 42 Q. As you understood it, effectively, Mr Haines was 43 denying he had done anything wrong? 44 A. That's the implication of it. 45 46 Q. It's right, isn't it, that you supported the fact that 47 Mr Haines should stand down; correct? .06/10/2017 (21) 2454 K A DOOLAN (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 A. Absolutely. 2 3 Q. And that's because even though there wasn't yet an 4 established wrongdoing, an allegation had been made that 5 was serious; correct? 6 A. An allegation had been made, not only which was 7 serious but was also known to member of the RSL (NSW). 8 That goes back to the evidence that I asked for. On the 9 basis of that, it was my advice to Mr Stephenson that he 10 had the action to take, but if he wanted to tell Mr Haines 11 that he had my backing, he had my permission to do so. 12 13 Q. That was because, given the seriousness of the 14 allegation, you thought that Mr Haines should stand down 15 for the good of the organisation; correct? 16 A. Correct. 17 18 Q. And you discussed Mr Rowe as well; correct? 19 A. We discussed Mr Rowe, yes. 20 21 Q. You discussed then the progress of the investigation 22 into Mr Rowe's expenses; correct? 23 A. Mr Stephenson gave me a broad briefing but provided no 24 details and, as I recall, he said that the investigation 25 had been set up, it was under way. At that stage, as far 26 as I was concerned, two things stood out in my mind: one, 27 the investigation was the matter for the New South Wales 28 Branch and they were doing that as far as their acting 29 leader was concerned correctly; and, secondly, and very 30 importantly, at that stage I still believed - and in fact 31 I continue to understand right through until 2016 - that 32 the reason for Mr Rowe's resignation was ill-health. 33 34 Q. It was your view, wasn't it, that Mr White wanted to 35 be State President; correct? 36 A. No, it was not my view. What I was - what I was very 37 well aware of was that once Mr Rowe had departed there was 38 considerable jockeying for the position that he just left. 39 40 Q. And you knew, didn't you, that Mr White had stood 41 against Mr Rowe earlier in 2014; correct? 42 A. I did. 43 44 Q. It was your view, wasn't it, that when you refer to 45 the jockeying, Mr White was one of those who was jockeying 46 for position; correct? 47 A. He was one of several. .06/10/2017 (21) 2455 K A DOOLAN (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 2 Q. Yes. You discussed, didn't you, with Mr Stephenson 3 the fact that Mr White had wanted to get rid of Mr Rowe; 4 correct? 5 A. I do not recall using those words. What I do recall 6 is that there was a great deal of discussion about who 7 would eventually end up being the replacement for Mr Rowe. 8 But let me be quite clear about that, I was well aware that 9 the processes of the (NSW) State Branch were that there 10 would be an election and it would be a matter for the 11 members to make up their minds. 12 13 Q. My question was slightly different. 14 A. Sorry, I misunderstood that. 15 16 Q. That's all right. What I was asking you is isn't it 17 right that you discussed that Mr White had wanted to get 18 rid of Mr Rowe? 19 A. No, I did not. 20 21 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Discussed with Mr Stephenson on the day 22 in Canberra. 23 24 MR CHESHIRE: Q. I beg your pardon, yes. What I'm 25 putting to you is that you discussed with Mr Stephenson at 26 this meeting that Mr White had wanted to get rid of 27 Mr Rowe? 28 A. I do not recall having that discussion. 29 30 Q. Do you accept that it is possible that you did? 31 A. Memory is always fallible: it is possible. 32 33 Q. In that context, isn't it also possible that you 34 discussed with Mr Stephenson at that meeting that Mr White 35 had given an ultimatum to Mr Rowe and that was why Mr Rowe 36 had left? 37 A. No, I reject that. It was not the case. I have made 38 it in writing a abundantly clear that I did not know that 39 that had occurred until 2016. 40 41 Q. How do you say that you first became aware of it, 42 then? 43 A. In the popular media in 2016. I can't give you a date 44 for that. Some time during that period of time. My 45 whole - if I can put it this way - mindset during this 46 period of time was to do at least two things: one, 47 obviously, make sure I gave the best advice I could to .06/10/2017 (21) 2456 K A DOOLAN (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 Mr Stephenson as to how they should proceed in New South 2 Wales; and the second thing, which is quite clear in what 3 I said in my National President's newsletter on 7 December, 4 previously, was to make sure that Mr Rowe was given a fair 5 hearing. 6 7 Had I known at that stage that Mr Rowe had been 8 untruthful to me when he rang me, my whole attitude 9 throughout this process would have been entirely different. 10 I did not know. 11 12 Q. At least on 7 January, though, you knew there was an 13 investigation into his expenses that was ongoing; correct? 14 A. Correct. 15 16 Q. At some stage, you were invited by Mr Stephenson to 17 attend the State Council meeting on 27 January; correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 20 Q. How did that invitation come about? 21 A. Mr Stephenson was, as I have already indicated, 22 clearly uncomfortable in his position and he wanted, as far 23 as I could see, my support to guide him through the 24 processes. 25 26 Q. When did he suggest that you attend that meeting? 27 A. Either at the 7 January meeting or some time 28 thereafter, I do not recall when, but certainly he invited 29 me to attend the meeting on the 27th. 30 31 Q. You understood that was to address State Council on a 32 number of issues; correct? 33 A. Whenever I was invited to address State Councils, it 34 was always on an issue which transcended, usually, the 35 State and usually had to do with the briefing to bring them 36 up to date with what was going on nationally. 37 38 Q. Presumably then, in that context, you understood that 39 you were going to talk to State Council about a number of 40 issues; correct? 41 A. I was there at their invitation. It was a matter for 42 them as to -- 43 44 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. Just listen again, please. 45 A. Yes. 46 47 MR CHESHIRE: Q. You understood that when you attended .06/10/2017 (21) 2457 K A DOOLAN (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 that meeting you intended to address them about several 2 issues; correct? 3 A. Correct. 4 5 Q. You understood that one of those issues was Mr Rowe; 6 correct? 7 A. Correct. 8 9 Q. You understood, then, that they were going to be 10 considering at that meeting what to do about Mr Rowe? 11 A. Correct. 12 13 Q. Then you must have understood that the investigations 14 were likely to have borne some fruit to have some document, 15 some report or similar, at least by that date; correct? 16 A. Correct. 17 18 Q. Was it your intention to seek to see that 19 documentation? 20 A. I had no right to see that documentation. I did not 21 ask for it and I did not expect to be provided with it. 22 23 Q. When you went to the meeting on 27 January, is it your 24 evidence that you had not been provided with the report? 25 A. I received no documentation. 26 27 Q. Did anybody give you a briefing on that report? 28 A. As I recall, there was a general briefing about what 29 was going to go on with respect to that. My memory of that 30 meeting is that -- 31 32 Q. I'll come on to the meeting in a minute. Before the 33 meeting, though, did anybody give you a briefing as to what 34 was in the report? 35 A. Not to my recollection. 36 37 Q. Or as to what the state was of the investigation into 38 Mr Rowe's misconduct? 39 A. No, I did not - there was no pre-briefing about it. 40 I went to the meeting expecting a full and frank discussion 41 about these issues and found that that didn't happen. 42 43 Q. So you expected, when you attended the meeting, all of 44 the evidence would be discussed and then you would say to 45 the meeting, "Well, I've heard all of that. These are my 46 suggestions. Now I'll leave and leave you to your 47 decision"? .06/10/2017 (21) 2458 K A DOOLAN (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 A. That was my frame of mind. 2 3 Q. When you went to the meeting, you had no preconceived 4 idea as to what you were going to say about Mr Rowe; is 5 that correct? 6 A. That is correct. 7 8 Q. As to the meeting on the 27th, are you able to assist, 9 to your understanding, were you present at the very 10 beginning of the meeting? 11 A. I do not recall, to be truthful. The meetings I 12 attended with State Councils were very few, but the usual 13 procedure was that I would be invited in at some point when 14 the Council decided that they would wish to have my advice 15 about whatever the issue was. 16 17 Q. You don't recall here whether there was a period where 18 you sat outside waiting or whether you were in at the 19 start? 20 A. I certainly sat outside waiting at State Council 21 meetings during my tenure as National President. I cannot 22 tell you precisely on this occasion whether that was the 23 case. 24 25 Q. At this meeting you recall that you did address 26 State Council at one stage; correct? 27 A. Correct. 28 29 Q. May I take it that when you were in the room there was 30 no briefing that was given about the content of the report; 31 correct? 32 A. Not that I recall. 33 34 Q. When you then said your piece to State Council, you 35 addressed a number of issues; is that right? 36 A. That's my recollection. 37 38 Q. You said some things about Mr Rowe; correct? 39 A. Yes, I put it to them on the basis of what I knew at 40 the time, that they should take into consideration 41 Mr Rowe's long service to the RSL, and repeated fairly much 42 what I had written in my National President's newsletter on 43 7 December. 44 45 Q. Bearing in mind that you had not received any briefing 46 and you'd expected one, did you not say to them, "Why don't 47 you tell me what's in the report, or why don't you show it .06/10/2017 (21) 2459 K A DOOLAN (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 to me, why don't you show me where you're up to with Don"? 2 A. I was attempting to do that in my conversations and, 3 as I've written in my opening statement which you have 4 before you, I found the reactions of the members around 5 that table very guarded. 6 7 Q. Am I right, then, that at some stage, given that you 8 were getting a guarded reaction, you suggested that the 9 tape be turned off; is that right? 10 A. That was my - I was - I believed it important that 11 they understand that there were two issues here: one was 12 the broader implication of what had happened for all the 13 RSL entities around Australia; and, secondly, I was still 14 after natural justice for Mr Rowe. 15 16 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. I just wonder if you could answer 17 the question. Did you suggest that the tape be turned off? 18 A. I have no specific recollection of saying that, but 19 I don't deny I may have said it, Madam Inquirer. 20 21 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Thank you. 22 23 MR CHESHIRE: Q. Do you accept that at some stage after 24 you had addressed, the tape was turned off; correct? 25 A. I didn't check to see whether it was turned off or 26 turned on. 27 28 Q. There was at some stage, was there not, some further 29 discussion where you attempted to have State Councillors be 30 more open; is that right? 31 A. My entire purpose in being there was to get them to 32 understand that they had to be open about this. 33 34 Q. What I'm trying to understand is you addressed them 35 in, if I call it, open session and then at some stage you 36 found that they were resistant to discussing things with 37 you? 38 A. Correct. 39 40 Q. And then, am I right, there was a further session, in 41 effect, where you tried to get them to be more open? 42 A. Correct. 43 44 Q. Which appears to have been with the tape turned off? 45 A. Correct. 46 47 Q. In that second session, did you say anything more than .06/10/2017 (21) 2460 K A DOOLAN (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 really what you've said in the first open session? 2 A. No, I did not. I was still attempting to get them to 3 open up and talk about the entire issue and to get them to 4 understand that they had to deal with it properly. 5 6 Q. You weren't any more successful in the closed session 7 than you were in the open session; is that right? 8 A. It was perhaps the most frustrating meeting in my 9 entire seven years in the RSL. 10 11 Q. Do you say that you were encouraging them to open up? 12 Did you say to them, "Come on, guys, tell me what's going 13 on"? 14 A. I think, if I recall, I used the words, "You have to 15 look at the big picture in this instance." Whether I went 16 on to expand about the full detail, I don't know. I found 17 it odd, I must say, that what I didn't understand then I 18 understand now, if I can explain it that way. I must have 19 been the only person around that table who did not know 20 that Mr Rowe had told me an untruth as to the reason he 21 resigned. 22 23 Q. At meeting, then, was it your view as to whether 24 Mr Rowe had or had not misused his credit card? 25 A. I had no way of knowing at that stage because the 26 documentation - let me just answer it in this context, 27 Mr Cheshire. There had been another occasion with another 28 State Branch where that State President came to me and 29 asked me to look at a document. That document contained 30 serious allegations. I read it and he asked for my advice 31 and the advice I gave to the man was, "Now that you have 32 shown me this formal allegation, either you must deal with 33 it or I must report and I must deal with it." He then took 34 action. 35 36 Q. In the context here, you did not have a view, am 37 I right, as to whether Mr Rowe had or had not done the 38 wrong thing? 39 A. I could make no such judgment, because I had no 40 documentation. 41 42 Q. I think you say in your statement that if he had done 43 the wrong thing, then you thought that it might have been 44 linked to his ill-health? 45 A. That was at the back of my mind, and my mindset was 46 all the time - I could not - all I knew at that stage was 47 that there were allegations that he had misused his credit .06/10/2017 (21) 2461 K A DOOLAN (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 card. He had told me that he had resigned for ill-health. 2 I connected those two dots and I surmised, as it appears 3 incorrectly, and that surmising was that it could have been 4 caused in that financial year due to his ill-health. I was 5 giving him the benefit of the doubt. 6 7 Q. You made the possible link and joined the dots between 8 ill-health and the misuse of his credit card, but you say 9 you did not join the dots in a similar between misuse of 10 his credit card and leaving the RSL (NSW)? 11 A. No, I did not. I had no reason to doubt Mr Rowe 12 throughout the time I had been National President, and he 13 had been the deputy National President throughout my time, 14 so I knew him quite well. I had no reason to doubt him 15 when he told me he had resigned for medical reasons. 16 17 Q. If, in fact, he had misused his credit card, you saw 18 health as being a possible excuse; correct? 19 A. Not excuse, explanation. 20 21 Q. Without the issue of his health, if that wasn't 22 involved, then, to your mind, misuse of the credit card 23 could not be excused; correct? 24 A. Absolutely. It was a - that would have been fraud and 25 it should have been reported to the authorities, if the 26 investigation so found. 27 28 MR CHESHIRE: Is that a convenient time, Madam Inquirer? 29 30 PUBLIC INQUIRER: It is. 31 32 Q. Mr Doolan, we're going to have a short break. Would 33 you like to step down and stretch your legs? 34 A. Yes, certainly. 35 36 PUBLIC INQUIRER: We will resume at 12. Yes, I will 37 adjourn until then. 38 39 SHORT ADJOURNMENT 40 41 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Yes, thank you. Come back into the 42 witness box, please, Mr Doolan yes, Mr Cheshire. 43 44 MR CHESHIRE: Thank you, Madam Inquirer. 45 46 Q. Could I hand you a document, and there is one for 47 Mr Melick as well. This is a transcript that has been .06/10/2017 (21) 2462 K A DOOLAN (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 prepared by the Inquiry's staff of at least part of the 2 meeting on 27 January. You will see at the top of the 3 first page it appears to commence with the Chairman, 4 Mr Stephenson, saying that there is some housekeeping and 5 then he introduces you. Do you see that? 6 A. Yes. 7 8 Q. He talks about the Four Corners program at line 12. 9 Then you commence at line 23 and you talk about some issues 10 in the country at large. Over the page, it continues at 11 line 56, where you congratulate Dr Bain and then you 12 continue on. The relevant part, if I take you to page 3, 13 you will see at line 116, at 11 minutes and 50 seconds - we 14 haven't transcribed all of that, but it will be made 15 available to you and your representative - you continue to 16 address other things. I am going to play you the tape. 17 You will see that Mr White is saying something at about the 18 hour mark. I am going to play you a tape, effectively, 19 from that point on. 20 21 (Audio played) 22 23 MR CHESHIRE: Q. Mr Doolan, on page 4 of that transcript 24 would I be right that from lines 157 to 176, you are 25 addressing the issue of Mr Rowe? 26 A. I was talking in general principles, and I pick up the 27 point at 162 where I say "if it's criminality, it's 28 criminality". 29 30 Q. Mr Doolan, my question was in that section, whilst you 31 may be talking in generalities, it is in relation to the 32 issue with Mr Rowe; correct? 33 A. Correct. 34 35 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. Just on that, at lines 171 and 172 36 where it says: 37 38 ... was clearly a [?] collection. 39 40 It was "clearly a defalcation". I think that was the word 41 you used? 42 A. I'm sorry, I can't help you on that, Madam Inquirer. 43 44 PUBLIC INQUIRER: You can listen to it again, perhaps. 45 Yes. 46 47 MR CHESHIRE: Q. Mr Doolan, you will note that in that .06/10/2017 (21) 2463 K A DOOLAN (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 passage there is no mention of Mr Rowe's health; correct? 2 A. No, there is no mention of Mr Rowe's health. 3 4 Q. So the issue that you raised in your evidence of 5 suggesting that Mr Rowe's health might give some 6 explanation as to what happened to the credit card, that's 7 not something that you said to State Council; correct? 8 A. Not based on that, but it was certainly in my mind. 9 10 Q. It doesn't appear that it was anywhere near front of 11 your mind, does it? 12 A. I have to accept that on the basis of what's there. 13 14 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. In this part of the meeting? 15 A. In this part of the meeting. 16 17 MR CHESHIRE: Q. You will note that in this passage 18 there is no suggestion that you did not yet know whether 19 Mr Rowe had done something wrong; correct? 20 A. Correct. 21 22 Q. And, therefore, what you said to the Inquiry earlier 23 cannot be right about that; correct? 24 A. I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're getting at. 25 26 Q. You said that when you attended this meeting, you did 27 not have any briefing about the contents of the audit, so 28 you did not know whether there was anything that had been 29 revealed about Mr Rowe's conduct; that was your evidence. 30 That, I am suggesting to you, is not consistent with what 31 you've said in that passage, which is "if it's criminality, 32 it's criminality", and then "if it's an honest error of 33 judgment". You knew, I'm suggesting to you, at the time 34 when you said these things to State Council, that there 35 were established matters about Mr Rowe's misuse of his 36 credit card? 37 A. I'm suggesting to you that that is incorrect. I have 38 not mentioned Mr Rowe here at all. I'm talking in 39 generalities. I was talking about - with specific mention 40 there, Mr Cheshire, to events that I had been involved in, 41 in other States. My consistent line was one of looking at 42 them, as I go back to my statement before, with the big 43 picture. 44 45 Q. Mr Doolan, if you look at line 157, you say: 46 47 But I go back to one point, and this is a .06/10/2017 (21) 2464 K A DOOLAN (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 very, very important point to what you are 2 about to determine. 3 4 You understood that as being in relation to Mr Rowe, didn't 5 you? 6 A. I understood that to be in relation to Mr Rowe, but 7 I did not know at that stage what the detail of it was. 8 9 Q. I didn't ask you as to whether you knew the detail. 10 Your evidence was that you had no idea as to whether the 11 allegations of misuse of credit card were correct or not? 12 That's what your evidence was earlier. 13 14 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Question? 15 16 MR CHESHIRE: Q. It is clear, isn't it, from this, that 17 you knew that there was misuse? 18 A. I gave evidence to you before, Mr Cheshire, that I was 19 told there was evidence about or an allegation about misuse 20 of a credit card in the phone call that Mr Stephenson made 21 with me on 20 December. 22 23 Q. Your evidence was that Mr Stephenson then told you 24 that there was going to be an investigation into whether 25 that was in fact the case; correct? 26 A. Correct. 27 28 Q. After the investigation had been carried out, until 29 you knew the results of the investigation, you did not, in 30 fact, know whether it was established; correct? 31 A. Correct. 32 33 Q. It is clear from this, is it not, that you knew that 34 there was some form of misuse established; correct? 35 A. No, it is not clear. 36 37 Q. Where do you say, "Don may not have done anything 38 wrong at all"? 39 A. I did not know at that stage. 40 41 Q. Therefore, why did you not raise that question in this 42 passage to say, "Well, if Don's done nothing wrong, then 43 obviously there's nothing to be done"? 44 A. I was - at that stage, I was talking at my level on 45 the National level. 46 47 Q. Look at lines 162 and 164. The two alternatives that .06/10/2017 (21) 2465 K A DOOLAN (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 you give are "if it's criminality, it's criminality", and 2 "if it's an honest error of judgment". Both of those would 3 assume that there was some misuse; correct? 4 A. Again, I was not specifically in that -- 5 6 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. Just answer the question, please, 7 if you would be kind enough. 8 A. I'm sorry, could you put the question to me again? 9 10 MR CHESHIRE: Q. Both of those propositions, "if it's 11 criminality", et cetera, and "if it's an honest error of 12 judgment", et cetera, they assume that there was some 13 misuse, don't they? 14 A. Well, I said the words. 15 16 Q. Yes. You, therefore, are assuming there was some 17 misuse in those passages, are you not? 18 A. No, I'm not assuming that. 19 20 Q. Look at line 160: 21 22 My aim as your National President whilst 23 I'm in that job is to try to get people to 24 say well OK, move on, accept that people 25 make mistakes. 26 27 Your evidence today is you had no idea whether Don Rowe had 28 made any mistakes; correct? 29 A. I have given evidence that I was told that there were 30 allegations against him. I had seen no written evidence at 31 that point in time about Mr Rowe. 32 33 Q. So where in here is your request to see the evidence? 34 It is not there, is it? 35 A. I had no authority to request that. 36 37 Q. It is not a question of authority. Of course you 38 request from State Council to see the report, isn't that 39 right? You can request it? 40 A. I could have requested it. I -- 41 42 Q. In the absence of that, the position that you were in, 43 you had absolutely no idea whether Don Rowe done the wrong 44 thing; correct? 45 A. I did not know. 46 47 Q. Where do you say that to State Council, "I don't know .06/10/2017 (21) 2466 K A DOOLAN (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 whether he has done anything wrong but, if he has, bear in 2 mind his long service", et cetera? You don't say that, do 3 you? 4 A. I can't deny what was said there. 5 6 Q. Yes. Looking at that, it is clear, isn't it, that you 7 knew that there was misuse of his credit card; correct? 8 A. I again affirm that that was made clear to me on 9 20 December. 10 11 Q. As I understood your evidence, what was made clear to 12 you on 20 December was that there were allegations, not 13 that there was established misuse; isn't that right? 14 A. There were allegations, yes, that's true. 15 16 Q. That is different from established misuse; correct? 17 A. Again, I would reiterate that I would have asked for 18 evidence. That evidence was not given to me. 19 20 Q. So where in this passage is there a request to see the 21 evidence? 22 A. I did not make a request to see the evidence. 23 24 Q. Where in this passage is there any complaint about 25 wanting to see or a desire expressed of wanting to see 26 natural justice for Don Rowe? 27 A. In that evidence there, it's not put. 28 29 Q. In referring to that line 160, "every now and then 30 people make mistakes," you knew, didn't you, that Don Rowe 31 had done something wrong, what you were addressing is what 32 they were going to do about it; that's right, isn't it? 33 A. I suspected, I didn't know, because to know you have 34 to have proof. 35 36 Q. You note that in that passage that I've shown to you, 37 which was recorded, one does not see Don Rowe's name 38 anywhere, do we? 39 A. No, we do not. 40 41 Q. And that must have been a deliberate act on your part 42 not to refer to him expressly; correct? 43 A. I didn't - the whole - my whole approach to this 44 attendance at that meeting was to try to get the 45 State Councillors to understand the broader aspects of that 46 with which they were dealing. 47 .06/10/2017 (21) 2467 K A DOOLAN (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 Q. In the context of what they were going to do about 2 Don Rowe; correct? 3 A. Correct, but it was their - I took the view, rightly 4 or wrongly, that they had the responsibility of dealing 5 with this matter. 6 7 Q. Mr Doolan, I am sorry, I think you've misunderstood my 8 question. What I was pointing out to you is in that 9 passage where you were referring to the issue of Mr Rowe, 10 you don't use his name at any point. Do you see that? 11 A. I don't disagree. I do see that, yes. 12 13 Q. I'm suggesting to you that that must have been 14 deliberate? 15 A. I do not agree. 16 17 Q. For instance, in line 157 you say: 18 19 But I go back to one point, and this is a 20 very, very important point to what you are 21 about to determine: 22 23 You don't say "about Don". Now, the -- 24 A. The implication is there. I did not - I just didn't 25 happen to use "Mr Rowe". 26 27 Q. This was a full State Council meeting, you appreciated 28 that, didn't you? 29 A. Clearly. 30 31 Q. There were lots of issues that they would have to 32 determine; correct? 33 A. Correct. 34 35 Q. Of which the Don Rowe issue was only one of them? 36 A. That would have been may normal appreciation. 37 38 Q. If you were going to say, "I've got an important point 39 for you to consider in relation to one of the matters which 40 you have to determine, which is Don Rowe", in order to make 41 that clear, you would have said, "This is a very, very 42 important point to what you're about to determine on Don"? 43 A. I could have expressed it better. 44 45 Q. It is not a question of better, I'm suggesting you did 46 this deliberately by not using Mr Rowe's name; do you 47 accept that? .06/10/2017 (21) 2468 K A DOOLAN (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 A. No, I deny it. 2 3 Q. I suggest to you the reason you wanted to do that is 4 because you did not want Don Rowe's name on this issue to 5 go on to the tape where it would then be available to 6 others; do you accept that? 7 A. No, I deny that. 8 9 Q. You wanted it covered up, didn't you? 10 A. I deny that. 11 12 Q. Do you accept that in the context of established 13 misuse of a credit card, that would be a matter that, at 14 the very least, the members of RSL (NSW) would have been 15 entitled to know; correct? 16 A. As indeed they were entitled to know that the reason 17 Mr Rowe gave for his resignation to me was false. They 18 were not told that. 19 20 Q. Yes. But even in the context of misuse, forgetting 21 about the resignation for a moment, but if it was 22 established that, in fact, there had been misuse of the 23 credit card, do you accept that the members of RSL (NSW) 24 were entitled to know? 25 A. Indeed, they were. 26 27 Q. In what you say in this statement, at no point do you 28 say, "But the members must be told"; correct? 29 A. I didn't - I did not use that statement, no. 30 31 Q. When you refer at line 160 to: 32 33 My aim as your National President is to try 34 to get people to say well OK, move on, 35 accept that people make mistakes. 36 37 You did not want the issue of Mr Rowe to be taken further; 38 correct? 39 A. Incorrect. 40 41 Q. Because "move on", by that, I suggest to you, when you 42 used that phrase, you mean move on rather than take the 43 issue of Mr Rowe's expenses further; correct? 44 A. No, I don't agree with that. 45 46 Q. At line 168, when you say: 47 .06/10/2017 (21) 2469 K A DOOLAN (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 I think we owe it to ourselves and the good 2 name of the RSL to think in those terms ... 3 4 You were stressing, weren't you, that if this got out, 5 there would be damage to the RSL brand; correct? 6 A. I was suggesting to them that there was damage to the 7 RSL brand if it was not handled properly. 8 9 Q. In order to handle it properly, therefore, it needed 10 to be taken further; correct? 11 A. Had the Inquiry come up with what it now appears to 12 have come up with, then clearly that should have been taken 13 to the relevant authorities. 14 15 Q. And then in line 175 you say: 16 17 It's too big, it's bigger and more 18 important than anyone in this room. 19 20 You're referring there to the brand of the RSL, aren't you? 21 A. I'm referring there to the brand of the 22 RSL nationally. 23 24 Q. By stressing the interests of RSL National and the 25 brand, you were encouraging State Branch, were you not, not 26 to take this further; correct? 27 A. Incorrect. I did not - I did not use words there 28 which in any way said they should do that. 29 30 Q. What, then, was the relevance of the RSL brand in the 31 context of what to do about Mr Rowe? 32 A. The context was for them to consider at that stage 33 that they were dealing with an issue which had implications 34 for RSL across Australia. 35 36 Q. If there was established misuse, what did the RSL 37 brand have to do with it? 38 A. If there was established misuse, I go back to what 39 I gave in evidence before in another State, if there had 40 been criminality involved, or it had been brought to my 41 formal attention that something untoward had occurred, then 42 I would have - I would have recommended very strongly that 43 that be reported appropriately. 44 45 Q. That would be the case whether it is inside or outside 46 the RSL; correct? 47 A. Absolutely. I was the Director of a company. I had a .06/10/2017 (21) 2470 K A DOOLAN (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 responsibility so to report. 2 3 Q. Yes. What did the RSL brand have anything to do with 4 a decision as to what to do with Mr Rowe? 5 A. I believed that they needed to take that into 6 consideration. 7 8 Q. Yes. And what relevance did it have to that 9 consideration? 10 A. The relevance it had was to make sure that they dealt 11 with the thing properly. 12 13 Q. Your evidence is, whether it is inside or outside the 14 RSL, if it's established misuse, it should be referred; 15 correct? 16 A. If it is established misuse. 17 18 Q. Right. 19 A. At this point, to my mind, it was not established. 20 21 Q. So, effectively, am I right, you're saying, "Look, if 22 it's not established, then don't report it because you'll 23 damage the RSL brand"; is that right? 24 A. That is correct, if it is not established. 25 26 Q. So you were encouraging them, if they could justify it 27 to themselves as being not established, to cover it up; 28 correct? 29 A. The thing is either it is established or is it not. 30 If there was evidence that there was criminality involved 31 I would have had no hesitation, as I had in many instances 32 before, of saying, "Report it immediately to the 33 authorities. 34 35 Q. That didn't depend upon it being established 36 wrongdoing, did it, the example you gave? 37 A. The allegation - there was - the example I gave was I 38 was shown a formal document and that document contained 39 details which had to be dealt with. 40 41 Q. Of serious allegations? 42 A. Of serious allegations. 43 44 Q. They had to be dealt with by referral to the police? 45 A. Correct. In this instance in New South Wales I was 46 not shown any documentation at all. 47 .06/10/2017 (21) 2471 K A DOOLAN (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 Q. You had, to your mind, serious allegations, correct, 2 about Mr Rowe? 3 A. I had in my mind that there were allegations. 4 5 Q. And serious allegations? 6 A. I did not know they were serious. 7 8 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. Why not, if a State President is 9 said to have misused the money of the public, isn't that 10 serious? Surely, Mr Doolan? 11 A. Madam Inquirer, I took the view - my mind - I go back 12 to where my mindset was. 13 14 Q. Please answer the question. Surely it is serious, if 15 there is an allegation that a State President of an RSL -- 16 A. All right, I accept that. 17 18 Q. -- misuses public money? 19 A. I accept that. 20 21 PUBLIC INQUIRER: All right then. Let's move on. 22 23 MR CHESHIRE: Q. Given that there were serious 24 allegations that had been made, wasn't the only proper 25 course to refer those allegations to the police? 26 A. That is not the way I saw it at the time, because 27 I believed the Inquiry was still ongoing. 28 29 Q. Nowhere in this passage do you suggest that there's an 30 Inquiry that's ongoing. You didn't believe that, did you, 31 Mr Doolan? You knew there was an Inquiry ongoing and they 32 were about to make a decision; you knew that, didn't you? 33 A. My recollection of that meeting is that I was very 34 frustrated because I did not - I had no access to 35 documentation. I should have asked for it. 36 37 Q. It is right, isn't it, that it wasn't for 38 State Council to sit in this context and to make a final 39 decision on whether Mr Rowe had or had not committed acts 40 of fraud; correct? That's a matter for the courts; 41 correct? 42 A. Correct. 43 44 Q. Therefore, it wasn't for State Council to determine 45 whether the allegations were established or not, it was for 46 State Council to determine whether there were serious 47 allegations and, if there were, to refer them to the .06/10/2017 (21) 2472 K A DOOLAN (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 police; correct? 2 3 MR MELICK: Madam Inquirer, I object to that question. 4 That's not a true statement of the law at all. 5 6 MR CHESHIRE: The witness has accepted that at least was 7 his understanding. 8 9 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Put the question again, Mr Cheshire. 10 11 MR CHESHIRE: Q. It was your understanding, Mr Doolan, 12 wasn't it, that if the serious allegations had been made 13 about Mr Rowe, the obligation was to report them to the 14 police? 15 A. If serious allegations were made about Mr Rowe, 16 I would have recommended to them that they take action. 17 18 Q. And you knew that serious allegations had been made; 19 correct? 20 A. I've accepted that they were serious allegations. 21 22 Q. You did not tell them to refer it to the police; 23 correct? 24 A. Correct. 25 26 Q. Because you said to them, "Take into account the 27 damage this will do to the RSL brand"; correct? 28 A. I was concerned about the RSL brand, yes. 29 30 Q. You were concerned that if these allegations got out, 31 yes, it would damage the RSL brand; correct? 32 A. Yes, I was. 33 34 Q. What you wanted the RSL State Council to do, if they 35 felt they were able to, was not to take it any further; 36 correct? 37 A. No, I did not feel that. What I felt about this at 38 the time was that I wanted to have natural justice for 39 Mr Rowe. 40 41 Q. Where do you say that? 42 A. I don't say that. 43 44 Q. Right. If that was your concern, you would have 45 thought that you would have said it; correct? 46 A. Agreed. 47 .06/10/2017 (21) 2473 K A DOOLAN (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 Q. If you didn't say it, it doesn't appear that it was 2 your concern; correct? 3 A. I have to accept that. 4 5 Q. Just before your conclusion, the last thing you say is 6 "It's too big, it's bigger and more important than anyone 7 in this room". Your concern was the RSL brand; correct? 8 A. It certainly my concern. 9 10 Q. That concern was if this gets out, the RSL brand will 11 be damaged; correct? 12 A. I did not use those words. 13 14 Q. No, but that was your concern, wasn't it? 15 A. I repeat, I did not use those words. 16 17 Q. It was your concern, wasn't it? 18 A. I was concerned. 19 20 Q. And that's why you wanted, if State Council felt that 21 they could do so, for State Council not to take this any 22 further; correct? 23 A. No, that's not correct. 24 25 Q. That was the whole reason of raising the issue of the 26 RSL brand, for them to see whether they could justify not 27 taking this any further; correct? 28 A. I wanted them to take it into account. At no point 29 did I try or suggest to them that they should break the 30 law. To do so would have been breaking the law myself. 31 32 Q. I want to suggest to you the issue of whether in the 33 light of misuse or even alleged misuse of a credit card, 34 the issue of whether to refer that to the police or not has 35 nothing to do with the RSL brand; would you accept that? 36 A. Would you repeat the question, please? 37 38 Q. I will put it around the other way which may be easier 39 for you. I want to suggest to you that the RSL brand had 40 nothing to do with the issue of whether to refer these 41 serious allegations to the police? 42 A. I have to agree with that. 43 44 Q. Therefore, anybody hearing you raise the issue of the 45 importance of the RSL brand, would be forgiven for 46 understanding that as being an encouragement to cover up. 47 Do you accept that? .06/10/2017 (21) 2474 K A DOOLAN (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 2 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Just pause there for a moment. 3 Mr Melick, you haven't taken any objection. I presume 4 you've given advice to your client in respect of section 5 41N(2) of the Act? 6 7 MR MELICK: I have, Madam Inquirer. As I understand it, 8 objection can be taken at a later stage, with the 9 transcript. 10 11 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Perhaps I should just say something to 12 your client in the circumstances, then. 13 14 MR MELICK: I was going to re-do this. I was going to 15 deal with it in re-examination. But perhaps you might deal 16 with it now. 17 18 PUBLIC INQUIRER: I think that might be a bit late. 19 20 MR MELICK: Yes. 21 22 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. Mr Doolan, I should indicate to you 23 that the circumstance that we've reached seems to me to 24 suggest that if these answers are given in a particular 25 way, it may expose you to prosecution for a criminal 26 offence or for a civil penalty, depending upon the 27 structure. In the circumstances, you are entitled to 28 object to answering those questions. The objection does 29 not relieve you from giving answers, but it, in fact, 30 provides you protection in respect of the answers you do 31 give, for those answers being used against you in any 32 prosecution. Do you understand that? 33 A. Yes, that's clear, Madam Inquirer. 34 35 Q. The only thing that is not protected is if you do not 36 tell me the truth and at later stage someone were to 37 prosecute for not telling me the truth. You're not 38 protected for that, do you understand that? 39 A. That's quite clear, Madam Inquirer. 40 41 Q. What will happen is that your counsel in due course 42 will provide a schedule of references to the transcript, as 43 I did apprehend that he would want to take objection on 44 your behalf in any event; do you understand that? 45 A. Yes, I do. 46 47 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Thank you, Mr Doolan. .06/10/2017 (21) 2475 K A DOOLAN (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 2 Yes, Mr Cheshire. 3 4 MR CHESHIRE: Thank you. 5 6 Q. Mr Doolan, I put to you the reason why you raised the 7 RSL brand. I'm now asking you from the point of anybody 8 hearing that. What I'm suggesting to you is anybody 9 hearing you stress the importance of the RSL brand would 10 understand that what you were encouraging them to do was 11 not to report it to the police. Do you accept that? 12 13 MR MELICK: I object to that, Madam Inquirer. It is not 14 for this witness to be able to say what's in the mind of 15 other people. 16 17 PUBLIC INQUIRER: He can give me the explanation of what 18 he would accept would be in the mind of others in the 19 circumstances, and I will allow it. That is, that he can 20 see the perception might be created by certain words that 21 are said, particularly by a National President. 22 23 MR MELICK: We already had one member who attended that 24 meeting saying he didn't take it that way. That's why 25 I submit that the question is inappropriate. 26 27 PUBLIC INQUIRER: I disagree. Thank you. 28 29 Yes, Mr Cheshire. 30 31 MR CHESHIRE: Q. Mr Doolan, do you accept that 32 State Councillors would be likely to perceive your 33 reference to the RSL brand as being an encouragement for 34 them not to report this matter and not to take it any 35 further? 36 A. No, I do not accept that. 37 38 Q. Did you ever become aware of the final resolution to 39 repay? 40 A. No. 41 42 Q. So nobody ever told you what had happened at the 43 meeting on 27 January; is that right? 44 A. No. 45 46 Q. That is right? 47 A. I was not informed - I had no further information .06/10/2017 (21) 2476 K A DOOLAN (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 about this matter at all. 2 3 Q. There was a National Board meeting on 13 February; 4 correct? 5 A. Correct. 6 7 Q. Didn't Mr Stephenson tell you that they hadn't yet 8 made a final decision with Mr Rowe? 9 A. With that exception, the previous answer I gave you 10 was correct. 11 12 Q. At the very least, your understanding was that the 13 issue of Mr Rowe's expenses had not been resolved; correct? 14 A. Correct. 15 16 Q. And that there was a possibility that Mr Rowe had, in 17 fact, been fraudulent; correct? 18 A. The possibility remained. 19 20 Q. And, therefore, it is right that you made certain 21 statements about Mr Rowe's good service in your 22 National President's newsletter; correct? 23 A. That was in December. 24 25 Q. Yes. And then in the annual report; correct? 26 A. Correct. 27 28 Q. So it would be right to say that if in fact Mr Rowe 29 had been fraudulent, that those statements would have been 30 misleading; correct? 31 A. Absolutely. 32 33 Q. And, therefore, given that you did not know whether 34 Mr Rowe, in fact, had been guilty or not guilty of 35 fraudulent conduct, do you not accept that it was at least 36 potentially misleading what you put in your newsletter and 37 annual report? 38 A. Well, let me just -- 39 40 MR MELICK: Sorry, I have to object. The newsletter was 41 well before the knowledge. The annual report is a 42 different matter. 43 44 MR CHESHIRE: Q. I will make it clear, Mr Doolan, 45 I didn't suggest you were deliberately misleading, but you 46 would accept that if there was any doubt about the issue of 47 whether Mr Rowe had or had not been fraudulent, then what .06/10/2017 (21) 2477 K A DOOLAN (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 you had said in the newsletter was at least potentially 2 misleading; correct? 3 A. The newsletter was published on 7 December. 4 5 Q. Yes. 6 A. I had no knowledge at that time of any of these 7 matters. 8 9 Q. But once you gained that knowledge, you realised that 10 what you'd said in that newsletter might at least not have 11 told the full story; correct? 12 A. I was not advised by anybody, and this is the key 13 point. At no time was I told throughout these proceedings 14 that Mr Rowe had resigned for any other reason than 15 ill-health. 16 17 Q. I have heard your evidence on that, Mr Doolan. What 18 I'm suggesting to you is that even putting aside the reason 19 for the resignation, even if he'd resigned on the basis of 20 ill-health, if in fact he had been fraudulent with his 21 credit card then you shouldn't have been saying laudatory 22 things about him; correct? 23 A. Had I known - had I known that he had lied to me 24 I would not have said any of that. 25 26 Q. Not just the lying about the leaving, even if he had 27 in fact been fraudulent about his credit card; correct? 28 A. Correct. 29 30 Q. So once you became aware of those issues, about the 31 possibility of a fraud, I want to suggest to you that you 32 should not have been heaping praise on him in the annual 33 report; do you accept that? 34 A. When I wrote about him in the annual report, my 35 mindset was that Mr Rowe, as I understood it - I was 36 linking - I go back to my earlier evidence. I was still 37 linking what I believed to be the case, that he was an ill 38 man who had made some mistakes, and I was not absolutely 39 sure at that stage, because I'd been shown no 40 documentation, as to whether in fact these were errors of 41 fraud or errors of mistake. 42 43 Q. To your understanding, it was still an ongoing matter; 44 correct? 45 A. In my mind, yes. 46 47 Q. Whilst there was an ongoing matter with serious .06/10/2017 (21) 2478 K A DOOLAN (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 allegations hanging over his head, do you say that it was 2 still appropriate to ignore that and heap praise upon him 3 in an annual report? 4 A. I did it for those reasons. 5 6 Q. Do you still say that it was appropriate? 7 A. I would not have done it if I didn't think it was 8 appropriate. 9 10 Q. You are aware, are you not, now, of Mr Rowe's 11 admissions that he has made to this Inquiry? 12 A. I am. 13 14 Q. Would you now accept that in fact what you put in the 15 annual report, and indeed your newsletter, did not tell the 16 whole picture; correct? 17 A. In the annual report - let me go back first of all to 18 the newsletter. At the time the newsletter was published, 19 on 7 December, I knew nothing about this, so -- 20 21 Q. Mr Doolan, I am sorry, my point wasn't suggesting that 22 you deliberately put something in there that was untrue. 23 What I'm suggesting to you is now what has become known 24 shows that in fact what you said at the time was not the 25 whole picture; correct? 26 A. What has come out - yes. 27 28 Q. So that's a matter that really need to be corrected, 29 would you agree with that? 30 A. I agree. I agree. 31 32 Q. You would expect, would you, RSL National to make some 33 form of corrective statement about what was said at least 34 in the annual report? 35 A. I accept that. 36 37 Q. Am I right that at the time of the annual report, you 38 made no attempt, in fact, to find out what the results of 39 the investigation into Mr Rowe's expenses had been? 40 A. That is correct, I made no inquiry. 41 42 Q. Before saying laudatory things about Mr Rowe in the 43 annual report, do you not accept that you ought to have 44 made those inquiries? 45 A. In hindsight, yes. 46 47 Q. In your statement you refer to State Councillors .06/10/2017 (21) 2479 K A DOOLAN (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 giving the impression that they did not accept the need for 2 an expeditious and thorough investigation of the 3 allegations against Mr Rowe. Do you recall saying that in 4 your statement? 5 A. I do. 6 7 Q. So your impression was that State Councillors didn't 8 really want to investigate this thoroughly; is that right? 9 A. It was a most dysfunctional meeting in my opinion. 10 11 Q. Was it your impression, then, that they did not want 12 to investigate this thoroughly? 13 A. Yes, I'd have to agree with that. 14 15 Q. If that's right, that would have suggested to you that 16 they were looking at trying to cover up this; correct? 17 A. They weren't looking? 18 19 Q. No, they were looking. If, in fact, they were not 20 looking to investigate it thoroughly, that would have 21 suggested to you that they were trying to cover this up; 22 correct? 23 A. I was concerned that they were not dealing with it as 24 I thought they should have been dealing with it. 25 26 Q. Because you were concerned that they were trying to 27 cover it up; is that right? 28 A. If I thought they were trying to cover it up, I would 29 have used those words. I did not. 30 31 Q. If you thought they weren't going to thoroughly 32 investigate it, what other explanation was there for that? 33 A. I saw myself there in that capacity as trying to get 34 them, as I said, to look at the totality of the issues. 35 36 Q. Again, in that passage, you don't say to them, "You 37 need to carry out a thorough investigation"; you don't say 38 that to them? 39 A. That is true, I did not say that. 40 41 Q. And you didn't say to them, "Don't cover this up"; 42 correct? 43 A. I didn't. 44 45 Q. So, in the light of concerns that they were not 46 thoroughly investigating it, wasn't that the obvious thing 47 to do? .06/10/2017 (21) 2480 K A DOOLAN (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 A. I agree, I could - I should have been more thorough. 2 3 Q. But the reality was, Mr Doolan, this suited you; 4 correct? 5 6 PUBLIC INQUIRER: I reject that question. It is just a 7 little vague, Mr Cheshire. 8 9 MR CHESHIRE: Q. Isn't it right, Mr Doolan, that it 10 suited you for them not to thoroughly investigate this 11 matter and to cover it up? 12 A. No. 13 14 Q. Do you accept that that may in fact have influenced 15 your actions on that day, 16 17 MR MELICK: I object to the question. I don't understand 18 it. 19 20 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Yes. All right. 21 22 Q. Did Mr Stephenson ask you to speak about Mr Rowe? 23 A. Not that I recall, Madam Inquirer. 24 25 Q. So why did you bother? 26 A. I was of the view that the New South Wales company, 27 that Board, was dealing this as a separate entity and I was 28 trying to influence them to look at it from a national 29 perspective. 30 31 Q. You said that you were concerned that they weren't 32 dealing with it appropriately. How on earth did you 33 understand that? 34 A. That was the body language around the table. 35 36 Q. The body language? 37 A. Yes. 38 39 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Yes, Mr Cheshire. 40 41 MR CHESHIRE: Q. How does body language give you the 42 impression that they are not thoroughly investigating 43 something? 44 A. People - it seemed - my recollection is that they 45 seemed not seized of the need to do it. That was an 46 impression I gained. We all gain body language and views 47 of things. .06/10/2017 (21) 2481 K A DOOLAN (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 2 Q. Mr Doolan, I want to suggest to you that at that 3 meeting you believed that misuse of the credit card had 4 been established. Do you accept that? 5 A. That Mr Rowe has misused the credit card? I had been 6 told that in December. I knew that had happened. 7 8 Q. No, your evidence was, as I understood it, that it was 9 an allegation at that stage? 10 A. It was. 11 12 Q. I'm suggesting at this meeting you knew that the 13 results of the investigation, whatever it was, were that 14 the misuse was in fact established. Do you accept that? 15 A. I do not - well, I have to - let me just answer it 16 this way. Every time that I was faced with issues like 17 this when I was National President, I sought evidence to 18 confirm those sorts of the things. No evidence was 19 produced to me. I should have asked for that evidence. 20 I did not. 21 22 Q. I want to suggest to you that at least by the time of 23 this meeting, you knew very well that at least part of the 24 reason why Mr Rowe had left was because he had been 25 confronted with an ultimatum to leave related to his 26 expenses? 27 A. I reject that. 28 29 Q. You've given evidence about a telephone call with 30 Mr Stephenson on 20 December, or thereabouts. Did you ever 31 make any notes of that telephone conversation? 32 A. No, I did not. I was in hospital. 33 34 Q. When you came out of hospital, when you went back to 35 work? 36 A. No, I did not make any notes of it. 37 38 Q. Mr Stephenson came to visit you in Canberra in early 39 January 2015, correct? 40 A. Correct. 41 42 Q. Did you make any notes of that? 43 A. No, I did not. 44 45 Q. When attended and addressed the meeting of 46 State Council on 27 January 2015, did you make any notes 47 for the purpose of attending that meeting? .06/10/2017 (21) 2482 K A DOOLAN (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 A. No, I did not. 2 3 Q. Did you make any notes during the meeting? 4 A. No, I did not. 5 6 Q. Did you make any notes after the meeting? 7 A. No, I did not. 8 9 Q. What about Mr Stephenson, what he said to the 10 National Board on 13 February, did you make any notes of 11 that? 12 A. My belief is that meeting was 13 March. 13 14 Q. I beg your pardon, 13 March. 15 A. No. The minutes of that meeting would record what was 16 said by anybody. 17 18 Q. Would you accept that part of your role as the 19 National President was to ensure that proper notes were 20 taken about relevant matters. 21 22 MR MELICK: At what meeting? 23 24 MR CHESHIRE: Q. At any meeting that you went to where 25 relevant matters were discussed, would you accept that part 26 of your duty was to take notes? 27 A. No, I do not accept that. 28 29 Q. If suddenly you were hit by a car on a particular day 30 and somebody had to take over from you, it would be 31 important that that person was aware of the state of all 32 relevant matters; correct? 33 A. Yes, and my Deputy was, for the most part, Mr Rowe and 34 I travelled to Sydney frequently to brief him about 35 relevant matters, but no, I did not write notes. 36 37 Q. When this issue of Mr Rowe arose in relation to his 38 expenses, you understood that they were serious allegations 39 and this was a serious matter, so why didn't you make notes 40 of your involvement with it? 41 A. Because that had not been my practice throughout my 42 tenure as National President to make notes on these 43 occasions. 44 45 Q. When you say on these occasions, on -- 46 A. On any meeting that I had with any of the States. 47 For example, the one I cited for the other state, I did not .06/10/2017 (21) 2483 K A DOOLAN (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 make a note of that. 2 3 Q. Why not? 4 A. Because I did not. Whether I should have or not, 5 I did not. 6 7 Q. Where you had formal dealings relating to serious 8 issues, wasn't that part of your role to do so? 9 A. I didn't - I did not see a responsibility on my part 10 to make notes of every meeting in which I participated. 11 12 Q. Not just every meeting, any meeting which raised a 13 serious issue? 14 A. There were serious issues raised frequently to me. 15 16 Q. And they should have all been documented, shouldn't 17 they? 18 A. I did not document them. 19 20 Q. How could you properly inform the National Board of 21 all the issues that were going on without you taking notes? 22 A. That was the way I operated. 23 24 Q. In relation to Mr Rowe, was this, again, some form of 25 ensuring that it didn't get into the notes of the 26 RSL National? 27 A. No. I had never used notes for meetings which 28 I attended. I never used notes for speeches. I spoke 29 without notes and without script. 30 31 Q. Are you aware that the RSL National issued an order to 32 show cause to RSL (NSW)? Are you aware of that? 33 A. I was aware of it only from press reports. 34 35 Q. Have you ever seen the document? 36 A. No. 37 38 Q. I would like to show it to you. Exhibit 10, Volume 1. 39 A. This occurred after -- 40 41 Q. It did occur after you had ceased to be National 42 President. 43 44 MR MELICK: I question the relevance of this, bearing in 45 mind it's happened well after he was National President and 46 he had no knowledge of it. 47 .06/10/2017 (21) 2484 K A DOOLAN (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Yes. Mr Cheshire, I presume it is 2 relevant to the process that occurred in the circumstances 3 of what occurred at the State Branch; is that correct? 4 5 MR CHESHIRE: Yes. 6 7 PUBLIC INQUIRER: I can see the relevance, Mr Melick. 8 9 MR MELICK: Could we be possibly be provided a copy? 10 11 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Of course. 12 13 MR CHESHIRE: Page 415, which is KM.02.0000134. 14 15 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. When did you cease being the 16 National President, Mr Doolan? 17 A. In June of 2016, Madam Inquirer. 18 19 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Thank you. You are on page 415? 20 21 MR CHESHIRE: Q. 415. Do you see the order to show 22 cause? 23 A. Yes. 24 25 Q. And then, over the page, the charge sheet and the 26 statement of facts and evidence. I am not going to ask you 27 about the detail of this, but do you see in item 4, Mr Rowe 28 tendered his resignation? 29 30 PUBLIC INQUIRER: This is on page 417, is it? 31 32 MR CHESHIRE: Q. 417, yes. Do you see that? 33 A. Yes. 34 35 Q. You can follow the dates through. Do you see 36 26 November, in item 5, mid-December '14, then 37 Mr Stephenson talking to Mr Cannings and Justice Cowdroy; 38 then 8, we have 11 and 12 December, State Council; 11 and 39 12 December, 9; 22 December, January 2015, 23 January 2015, 40 and we come to paragraph 13. My purpose of taking you 41 through those paragraphs is to show you that between 42 paragraphs 1 and 12 there is no reference to any contact 43 between RSL (NSW) and you; correct? 44 A. Correct. 45 46 Q. Then in paragraph 13 you will see reference to the 47 meeting that you attended. It says, in the third line, you .06/10/2017 (21) 2485 K A DOOLAN (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 left meeting at 12 o'clock, before State Council went in 2 committee: 3 4 This provides evidence that RSL NSW 5 STATE BRANCH had an opportunity to brief 6 RSL National, by way of the 7 then-National President, on Mr Rowe's 8 expenditures but did not take the 9 opportunity to do so. 10 11 Do you see that? 12 A. Yes. 13 14 Q. 15 16 The Minutes evidence that RSL NSW STATE 17 BRANCH was not transparent with [you] on 18 the subject matter of Mr Rowe's 19 expenditures as there [was] no agenda item 20 on the topic during the time of his visit - 21 only after he departed. 22 23 Do you see that? 24 A. Yes. 25 26 Q. Do you see that a criticism is being made of RSL (NSW) 27 in that context. Do you see that? 28 A. Yes. 29 30 Q. And do you see that what is set out in that paragraph 31 really doesn't reflect the true and full picture, does it? 32 A. Just let me read it through because I haven't seen 33 this before. 34 35 Q. Yes. 36 A. No. Had I been asked about that, given the evidence 37 I've already given, that should have been corrected. 38 39 Q. And a true picture would have included the telephone 40 call with Mr Stephenson on 20 December and his visit to 41 Canberra on 7 January; correct? 42 A. Correct. 43 44 Q. And the fact that when you address, you actually did 45 address in relation to Mr Rowe's expenditure; correct? 46 A. I've already said that. 47 .06/10/2017 (21) 2486 K A DOOLAN (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 Q. Yes. That was a consequence, wasn't it, of you not 2 having kept proper notes of any of those dealings with 3 State Council; correct? 4 5 MR MELICK: Madam Inquirer, that is entirely 6 inappropriate. 7 8 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Perhaps you could take it step by step, 9 Mr Cheshire. 10 11 MR CHESHIRE: Q. You have accepted that what is here was 12 not the full picture. If, in fact, you had made notes of 13 your dealings with Mr Stephenson, they would have been on 14 the RSL National files; correct? 15 A. They may have been but I didn't make notes. 16 17 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. No, but you're just being asked if 18 you had made the notes? 19 A. If I had made notes they may have been on the National 20 files. I may have ditched them. I don't know. 21 22 Q. Why would you ditch them? 23 A. I don't - well -- 24 25 Q. If you've got a report from a president telling you 26 about, as you've called it, the problem with Mr Rowe, you 27 would have put that on the file, surely? 28 A. Yes, but this is a - this is a - I'm being asked a 29 hypothetical question. 30 31 Q. You are indeed, but if you had them? 32 A. If I had - if there were - if there were notes that 33 were germane to this then they would have been placed on a 34 file. 35 36 Q. Yes, to a serious allegation, they would have been on 37 the file? 38 A. Yes. 39 40 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Yes, Mr Cheshire. 41 42 MR CHESHIRE: Q. What I am therefore suggesting to you 43 is this demonstrates precisely why you ought to have kept 44 such notes. Do you accept that? 45 46 MR MELICK: Once again, I object. Mr Doolan has given 47 evidence he never kept notes. This a matter for address .06/10/2017 (21) 2487 K A DOOLAN (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 and not for cross-examination. 2 3 PUBLIC INQUIRER: I think it should be put to someone if 4 it's going to be the subject of submission, only to be 5 fair, Mr Melick. 6 7 MR MELICK: All right. Thank you. 8 9 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Yes, Mr Cheshire. 10 11 MR CHESHIRE: Q. This demonstrates, doesn't it, 12 Mr Doolan, that you ought to have kept notes of your 13 dealings with Mr Stephenson? 14 A. I accept that. 15 16 Q. In fact, part of the reason why you did not keep notes 17 of important meetings with State Branch was so that 18 State Branch presidents could tell you things in 19 confidence; correct? 20 A. No. It was just not my practice to keep notes of 21 any - I mean, if I had kept notes of every contact from 22 everybody who made contact with me then I would not have 23 done anything else. 24 25 Q. In relation to your dealings with Mr Stephenson, did 26 you tell anybody else in RSL National about that? 27 A. I do not recollect whether I did at that stage. As 28 I said, I was in -- 29 30 Q. I think you were going to say "in hospital"; is that 31 right? 32 A. Well, I was in hospital at the time. 33 34 Q. Mr Stephenson then came to see you in Canberra for 35 four hours in early January. Did you tell anybody about 36 that? 37 A. I do not recollect. I may have done; I do not 38 recollect. 39 40 Q. It is right, isn't it, that State Presidents from time 41 to time told you about serious matters; correct? 42 A. I was the recipient of allegations and serious matters 43 from throughout the RSL, throughout my tenure -- 44 45 Q. And matters -- 46 A. -- and one of the greatest difficulties I had was 47 judging which were serious and real and which were not. .06/10/2017 (21) 2488 K A DOOLAN (Mr Cheshire) Transcript produced by DTI

1 2 Q. And when they informed you of issues that were 3 serious, did you understand them to be confidential? 4 A. Unless people asked for confidentiality, no. If 5 I judged the matter on the basis of what I was told or 6 shown to be serious, as with the one that I told you about 7 where I was purposely shown a document, then I acted 8 accordingly, but I did not keep notes of that. I accept 9 I should have kept notes, but I did not. 10 11 Q. What about Mr Stephenson, did he not tell you to keep 12 the information about Mr Rowe confidential at least while 13 the investigation was being carried out? 14 A. I do not recall him saying that. 15 16 Q. Wasn't that the reason why you didn't keep notes of 17 this because it meant that it could be kept confidential to 18 the State Branch? 19 A. No, Mr Cheshire, I did not keep notes of anything. 20 21 Q. And it meant that the State Branch, if they wanted to, 22 could cover it up without there being any record within 23 RSL National? 24 A. I don't see the connection between notes and that. 25 I've told you, Madam Inquirer, I've told this Inquiry that 26 I did not keep notes. It is a matter of judgment whether 27 I should have done. You've asked me whether I should have 28 kept notes, I've said yes. 29 30 MR CHESHIRE: Thank you, Mr Doolan. Thank you, 31 Madam Inquirer. 32 33 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Mr Melick? 34 35 MR MELICK: Thank you, Madam Inquirer. 36 37 <EXAMINATION BY MR MELICK: 38 39 MR MELICK: Q. I just want to get the chronology clear. 40 Prior to the meeting in January of 2015, that's 41 27 January -- 42 43 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Keep your voice up, please, Mr Melick. 44 Thank you. 45 46 MR MELICK: Q. Prior to this meeting on 27 January 2015, 47 to your knowledge had the investigation, which you .06/10/2017 (21) 2489 K A DOOLAN (Mr Melick) Transcript produced by DTI

1 understood (NSW) Council had commissioned, been completed? 2 A. I cannot recollect whether I was told specifically 3 that was the case. What I can say is I had no formal 4 documentation sent to me, as I would have expected, saying 5 that they had concluded. 6 7 Q. Did anybody tell you that they had confirmed evidence 8 that Mr Rowe had misused his credit card prior to that 9 meeting? 10 A. No. 11 12 Q. Therefore, when you spoke to the meeting about 13 considering the brand of RSL, was your concern to make sure 14 that no unfounded or inappropriate allegations were made 15 public for fear that damage would be done which could not 16 be remedied if the allegations were later found to be 17 false? 18 A. Correct. 19 20 MR MELICK: I have nothing further, thank you, 21 Madam Inquirer. 22 23 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Yes. 24 25 Q. Thank you, Mr Doolan, you may step down. 26 A. Thank you, Madam Inquirer. 27 28 <THE WITNESS WITHDREW 29 30 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Mr Cheshire? 31 32 MR CHESHIRE: Thank you, Madam Inquirer. On Monday, 33 Mr Winter, the auditor, and then on Tuesday afternoon, 34 Mr Hutchings. 35 36 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Yes, thank you. I will adjourn until 37 then. Thank you. 38 39 AT 12.57PM THE INQUIRY WAS ADJOURNED TO MONDAY, 9 OCTOBER 40 2017 AT 10.00AM 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 .06/10/2017 (21) 2490 K A DOOLAN (Mr Melick) Transcript produced by DTI