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In The Matter Of:
SOFTVIEW LLC
v.
APPLE INC.
___________________________________________________
FORSTALL, SCOTT, 30(b)(6) ‐ Vol. 1May 3, 2013
___________________________________________________
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL
SoftView Exhibit 2014-1 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
Page 1
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF DELAWARE
SOFTVIEW LLC,
Plaintiff,
vs. NO. 10-389-LPS
APPLE INC.; AT&T MOBILITYLLC; DELL INC.; HTC CORP.;HTC AMERICA, INC.; HUAWEITECHNOLOGIES CO., LTD.;FUTUREWEI TECHNOLOGIES, INC.;KYOCERA CORP.; KYOCERAWIRELESS CORP.; LG ELECTRONICS,INC.; LG ELECTRONICS USA, NIC;LG ELECTRONICS USA, INC.; LGELECTRONICS MOBILECOMM U.S.A.,INC.; MOTOROLA MOBILITY LLC;SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO., LTD.;SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS AMERICA, INC.;SAMSUNG TELECOMMUNICATIONS AMERICA,LLC; and SONY ERICSSON MOBILECOMMUNICATIONS (USA) INC.,
Defendants.___________________________________/
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL
30(b)(6) VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF SCOTT FORSTALL
PALO ALTO, CALIFORNIA
FRIDAY, MAY 3, 2013
BY: ANDREA M. IGNACIO HOWARD, CSR, RPR, CCRR, CLR
CSR LICENSE NO. 9830
SoftView Exhibit 2014-2 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
Page 2
1 PALO ALTO, CALIFORNIA
2 FRIDAY, MAY 3, 2013
3 10:14 a.m.
4
5
6
7
8 30(b)(6) Videotaped Deposition of
9 SCOTT FORSTALL, taken at GIBSON DUNN &
10 CRUTCHER, LLP, 1881 Page Mill Road,
11 Palo Alto, California, pursuant to Notice,
12 before me, ANDREA M. IGNACIO HOWARD, CSR,
13 RPR, CCRR, CLR ~ CSR License No. 9830.
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-3 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
Page 3
1 A P P E A R A N C E S:
2
3
4 FOR THE PLAINTIFFS:
5 IRELL & MANELLA LLP
6 By: ALAN HEINRICH, Esq.
7 1800 Avenue of the Stars, Suite 900
8 Los Angeles, California 90067-4276
9 Phone: (310) 277-1010 Fax: (310) 203-7945
11
12
13 FOR THE DEFENDANTS:
14 GIBSON DUNN & CRUTCHER, LLP
15 By: H. MARK LYON, Esq.
16 1881 Page Mill Road
17 Palo Alto, California 94304-1211
18 Phone: (650) 849-5300 Fax: (650) 849-5333
20
21 ALSO PRESENT: Patricia Guerrero, Videographer
22 Andy Song, Apple Inc.
23 ---oOo---
24
25
SoftView Exhibit 2014-4 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
Page 4
1 I N D E X
2 DEPOSITION OF SCOTT FORSTALL
3
4 EXAMINATION PAGE
5 MR. HEINRICH 7, 104
6 MR. LYON 96
7
8 E X H I B I T S
9 EXHIBIT PAGE
10 Exhibit 1 U.S. Patent No. 7,864,163 B2; 9
11 51 pgs.
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20 Exhibit 5 Pad++: A Zoomable Graphical 81
21 Interface System, Bates
22 Kyocera PX 1006_88 - '89;
23 2 pgs.
24 Exhibit 6 U.S. Patent 7,461,353 B2; 89
25 50 pgs.
REDACTED
SoftView Exhibit 2014-5 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
Page 5
1 E X H I B I T S (Continued.)
2
3 EXHIBIT PAGE
4 Exhibit 7 Letter, Subject: Re: Patent, 89
5 Bates SV0003430 - '32; 3 pgs.
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-6 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
Page 6
1 08:35 PALO ALTO, CALIFORNIA
2 08:36 FRIDAY, MAY 3, 2013
3 08:36 10:14 A.M.
4 08:36
5 08:36
6 08:36
7 10:13 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Here begins Volume I,
8 10:13Videotape No. 1 in the deposition of Scott Forstall.
9 10:13 In the matter of SoftView LLC versus Apple
10 10:13Inc., et al. In the U.S. District Court, District of
11 10:13Delaware. The case number is 10-389-LPS.
12 10:13 Today's date is May 3rd, 2013. The time on
13 10:13the video monitor is 10:14.
14 10:13 The videographer today is Patricia Guerrero,
15 10:13a notary public, employed by Merrill Court Reporting,
16 10:14San Francisco.
17 10:14 This video deposition is taking place at the
18 10:14Law Offices of Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher, 1881 Page Mill
19 10:14Road, Palo Alto, California.
20 10:14 Counsel, please voice identify yourselves and
21 10:14state whom you represent.
22 10:14 MR. HEINRICH: Alan Heinrich of Irell &
23 10:14Manella on behalf of SoftView.
24 10:14 MR. LYON: Mark Lyon of Gibson, Dunn &
25 10:14Crutcher on behalf of defendant Apple. With me is
SoftView Exhibit 2014-7 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
Page 7
1 10:14Andrew Song, also of Apple.
2 10:14 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Thank you.
3 10:14 The court reporter today is Andrea Ignacio of
4 Merrill Court Reporting.
5 Would the court reporter please swear in the
6 witness.
7
8 SCOTT FORSTALL,
9 having been sworn as a witness
10 by the Certified Shorthand Reporter,
11 testified as follows:
12
13 10:14 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Thank you. Please begin.
14 10:14
15 10:14 EXAMINATION BY MR. HEINRICH
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REDACTED
SoftView Exhibit 2014-8 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
Page 8
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REDACTED
SoftView Exhibit 2014-9 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
Page 9
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REDACTED
SoftView Exhibit 2014-10 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
Page 10
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REDACTED
SoftView Exhibit 2014-11 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
Page 11
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REDACTED
SoftView Exhibit 2014-12 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
Page 12
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REDACTED
SoftView Exhibit 2014-13 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
Page 13
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REDACTED
SoftView Exhibit 2014-14 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
Page 14
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REDACTED
SoftView Exhibit 2014-15 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
Page 15
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REDACTED
SoftView Exhibit 2014-16 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
Page 16
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6 10:25 Q You worked closely with Steve Jobs during the
7 10:26development of the iPhone; correct?
8 10:26 A Correct.
9 10:26 Q And you worked closely with Steve Jobs during
10 10:26the development of the user interface specifically for
11 10:26the iPhone; correct?
12 10:26 A Yes.
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REDACTED
REDACTED
SoftView Exhibit 2014-17 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
Page 17
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12 10:27 MR. HEINRICH: Q. Well, after the release of
13 10:27the iPhone, Apple knew from its users that browsing
14 10:27the web is, in fact, one of the most popular things
15 10:27that users do with their iPhones; correct?
16 10:28 A Yes, it is one of the more popular features
17 10:28used on the iPhone.
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REDACTED
REDACTED
SoftView Exhibit 2014-18 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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REDACTED
SoftView Exhibit 2014-19 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
Page 19
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REDACTED
SoftView Exhibit 2014-20 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
Page 20
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REDACTED
SoftView Exhibit 2014-21 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
Page 21
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REDACTED
SoftView Exhibit 2014-22 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
Page 22
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-23 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-24 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
Page 24
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23 10:39
24 10:39 Q What in particular did you seriously dislike
25 10:39about your maligned flip phone?
REDACTED
SoftView Exhibit 2014-25 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
Page 25
1 10:39 A The user interface was absolutely terrible.
2 10:39It was confusing to do anything other than make a
3 10:39simple phone call by dialing a number. It was also
4 10:39limited. You had a powerful computing device in your
5 10:40pocket, and yet the available functionality was
6 10:40pathetically small.
7 10:40 Q Did your flip phone allow you to browse the
8 10:40Internet?
9 10:40 A I believe some of the phones had the ability
10 10:40to browse what was called WAP. WAP was a baby version
11 10:40of the Internet. It was a different format than HTML,
12 10:40which is the format standardly used to build web
13 10:40pages.
14 10:40 Q What do you mean by "baby version of the
15 10:41Internet"?
16 10:41 A You couldn't go to every web page you wanted
17 10:41to go to. A website developer would be forced to
18 10:41create a completely separate website just for a WAP
19 10:41browser. And even when they did create it, they may
20 10:41limit some of the functionality that you could get at.
21 10:41 Q What are some examples of the limits on
22 10:41functionality that would be imposed in a WAP website?
23 10:41 A Sometimes they limited the visuals, not as
24 10:41many images. Sometimes there was whole sections of
25 10:41the website that would be missing. So you may have a
SoftView Exhibit 2014-26 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
Page 26
1 10:41news website, and they choose to only put up the
2 10:41headlines or the front page stories, but all of the
3 10:41sport stories don't even appear on the WAP site.
4 10:42 Q Can you think of some other examples?
5 10:42 A I don't believe video was supported in WAP.
6 10:42It was just a completely different representation,
7 10:42mainly text-based.
8 10:42 Q Was it a dumbed-down web?
9 10:42 A I would be comfortable describing it as a
10 10:42dumbed-down web.
11 10:42 Q And did that dumbing-down affect the user's
12 10:42Internet experience?
13 10:42 A Yes.
14 10:42 Q In not-so-positive ways?
15 10:42 A Yes.
16 10:42 Q Could users view graphics on WAP websites?
17 10:42 A I don't remember if there was a way for an
18 10:43image to be viewed or not. There may have been, but I
19 10:43don't have a recollection of that specifically.
20 10:43 Q What about tabular layouts? Did WAP support
21 10:43tabular layouts?
22 10:43 MR. LYON: Objection; vague.
23 10:43 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure.
24 10:43 MR. HEINRICH: Q. Was WAP one of the things
25 10:43that you seriously disliked about your circa 2003/2004
SoftView Exhibit 2014-27 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
Page 27
1 10:43flip phone?
2 10:43 A Yes.
3 10:43 Q Did any of your colleagues have BlackBerrys
4 10:43at this time?
5 10:43 A I don't remember people at Apple carrying
6 10:44BlackBerrys.
7 10:44 Q But you and Steve and the others in the
8 10:44group, you mentioned earlier, were certainly aware of
9 10:44BlackBerrys; correct?
10 10:44 A Yes. I believe you probably carried one.
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-28 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
Page 28
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9 10:46 MR. HEINRICH: Q. And you obviously wanted
10 10:46to improve on that; correct?
11 10:46 A We wanted to have the best mobile web
12 10:46browsing experience ever on the iPhone.
13 10:46 Q And that would include a full-feature
14 10:46Internet web browser?
15 10:46 MR. LYON: Objection; vague.
16 10:46 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure how you define
17 10:46"full-feature Internet browser."
18 10:46 We wanted to have a phenomenal web browsing
19 10:46experience on our mobile devices.
20 10:46 MR. HEINRICH: Q. And would that involve
21 10:46bringing the entire Internet to the iPhone user?
22 10:47 MR. LYON: Same objections.
23 10:47 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure how you define
24 10:47"the entire Internet."
25 10:47 We wanted to bring as much of the Internet as
REDACTED
SoftView Exhibit 2014-29 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
Page 29
1 10:47possible that was appropriate in a way that felt
2 10:47natural and easy to use.
3 10:47 MR. HEINRICH: Q. Do you recall testifying
4 10:47in the Samsung case that one of your goals for the
5 10:47iPhone project was to give people the entire web, the
6 10:47entire Internet experience, on a device as small as
7 10:47the iPhone?
8 10:47 A I don't remember the specific words I used.
9 10:47
10 10:47
11 10:48
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-30 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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1 10:49
2 10:49 Q Is it true that you and the Apple team wanted
3 10:49to solve the problem of giving people the entire real
4 10:49Internet on a device the size and form factor of the
5 10:49iPhone?
6 10:49 A We wanted to give people the -- a tremendous
7 10:49comprehensive Internet experience on our mobile
8 10:49devices.
9 10:49 Q Sir, you've testified that you and your team
10 10:49wanted to solve the problem of giving people the
11 10:49entire real Internet on the iPhone device; correct?
12 10:49 A You'd have to show me the specific words of
13 10:49the testimony, but I believe that is accurate --
14 10:49 Q Okay.
15 10:49 A -- as far as what I -- what the team and I
16 10:49set out to do.
17 10:50
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-31 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-32 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
Page 32
1 10:52
2 10:52
3 10:52 Q So on page 749 here of your trial testimony
4 10:52to the jury in the Apple/Samsung case, you state --
5 10:52 A At what line?
6 10:52 Q Line 11:
7 10:52 "One other one was we wanted to give people
8 10:52the entire web, the entire Internet experience. And
9 10:52the Internet is designed for a much larger screen.
10 10:52When a web developer is building a site for the
11 10:52Internet, they design it expecting a window like just
12 10:52on a computer. And yet we have this very, you know,
13 10:53compared to that, small window, small screen, into
14 10:53that web world. So we wanted to solve the problem of
15 10:53giving people the entire real Internet on this
16 10:53device."
17 10:53 That was your testimony to the jury?
18 10:53 A Yes.
19 10:53 Q And you were referring to you -- your work
20 10:53and the work of your team on the Apple iPhone;
21 10:53correct?
22 10:53 A Correct.
23 10:53 Q And that was, in fact, truthful testimony?
24 10:53 A Yes.
25 10:53
REDACTED
REDACTED
SoftView Exhibit 2014-33 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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22 10:55
23 10:55 MR. HEINRICH: Q. Do you recall any other
24 10:55web browsers for phones or other mobile devices that
25 10:55you looked at as you were starting the iPhone project?
REDACTED
SoftView Exhibit 2014-34 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
Page 34
1 10:55 A I don't.
2 10:55 It wasn't generally the way that we operated.
3 10:55We decided we were going to build a phone. We had
4 10:55built Safari. We knew the Internet was an important
5 10:55feature on a desktop. We decided we wanted it to be
6 10:55an important useful feature on our mobile devices. So
7 10:55we set about to build the best version of that we
8 10:55could. And in many ways it's irrelevant what anyone
9 10:55else had done or was doing. We wanted to do the best.
10 10:55 Q But you were aware that there were a lot of
11 10:55drawbacks of web browsing on the existing devices of
12 10:56the day; right?
13 10:56 A The devices we were using had drawbacks.
14 10:56 Q And, in fact, you weren't aware of any phones
15 10:56that could bring the entire web Internet experience to
16 10:56the user; right?
17 10:56 A Correct.
18 10:56 Q And you weren't aware of any other mobile
19 10:56device that could bring the entire web experience to
20 10:56the user; correct?
21 10:56 MR. LYON: Objection; vague.
22 10:56 THE WITNESS: It depends on how you're
23 10:56defining "mobile device." Some people divine --
24 10:56define a laptop as a mobile device. I think they did
25 10:56a very standup job.
SoftView Exhibit 2014-35 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
Page 35
1 10:56 MR. HEINRICH: Q. How -- how about a
2 10:56handheld mobile device? You weren't aware of any
3 10:56other handheld mobile device that could bring the
4 10:56entire web to the user at that time; correct?
5 10:56 MR. LYON: Objection; vague.
6 10:56 THE WITNESS: I don't remember a phone that
7 10:57brought a great web experience to the user, nor do I
8 10:57recall other small portable mobile devices that
9 10:57weren't laptops that did the same.
10 10:57 MR. HEINRICH: Okay. Thanks.
11 10:57 Q So going back to WAP, just a few more
12 10:57questions on that.
13 10:57 Now, WAP content wasn't displayed in its
14 10:57original HTML format because it wasn't HTML; right?
15 10:57 A WAP was not HTML. I think it stood for web
16 10:58access protocol [sic].
17 10:58 Q Or wireless access?
18 10:58 A Or wireless access -- that might be right --
19 10:58wireless access protocol [sic].
20 10:58 Q Using a WAP browser, could a user zoom in on
21 10:58content?
22 10:58 A I don't believe that WAP defined the user
23 10:58interface. That means an implementation of a WAP
24 10:58browser could have functionality to increase the font
25 10:58size, effectively zoom in.
SoftView Exhibit 2014-36 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
Page 36
1 10:58 Q My question is whether you were aware of any
2 10:58WAP browsers that had that zooming functionality at
3 10:58the time?
4 10:58 A I can't recall a WAP browser that required
5 10:59horizontal scrolling.
6 10:59 If you zoom in to something, there are a few
7 10:59ways of doing it. One would be to increase the font
8 10:59size, and I would expect that some implementations of
9 10:59WAP browsers at the time had the ability to set the
10 10:59font size. But I believe they would probably rewrap
11 10:59at that point, as opposed to extend beyond the bounds
12 10:59of the device, thus requiring the user to horizontally
13 10:59scroll to read the text.
14 10:59 Q Do you recall -- do you have an actual
15 10:59recollection of a WAP browser that zoomed even by
16 10:59increasing the font size?
17 10:59 A I don't.
18 10:59
19 10:59
20 10:59
21 11:00
22 11:00
23 11:00
24 11:00
25 11:00 Q Did you ever hear of a phone called the
REDACTED
SoftView Exhibit 2014-37 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
Page 37
1 11:00Motorola ROKR, R-O-K-R?
2 11:00 A Yes. I believe it was referred to as the
3 11:00ROKR.
4 11:00 Q ROKR.
5 11:00 A I don't think I ever heard it called the
6 11:00ROKR.
7 11:00 Q Actually, that would make more sense.
8 11:00 So what do you know about the Motorola ROKR,
9 11:00aside from the correct -- correct pronunciation?
10 11:01 A Motorola and Apple discussed bringing music
11 11:01to cell phones, and the ROKR was a joint project
12 11:01attempt to do so.
13 11:01 Q And what time period was that project active?
14 11:01 A I'm not sure specifically. I would guess
15 11:012004, maybe.
16 11:01 Q Did the ROKR have the capability of browsing
17 11:01the Internet?
18 11:01 A I don't recall.
19 11:01 Q Other than what we've already discussed, do
20 11:01you recall any other phones of this time period in
21 11:022004 that had some web browsing capabilities?
22 11:02 A Not off the top of my head.
23 11:02
24 11:02
25 11:02
REDACTED
SoftView Exhibit 2014-38 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-39 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-40 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-41 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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16 11:08 Q Did the original iPhone have conference call
17 11:08capability?
18 11:08 A It did.
19 11:08 Q I never used it.
20 11:08 A While you were on a phone call, that six-up
21 11:08UI has a button which says "merge calls" and "make
22 11:08another call." So if you had ever chosen to, if you
23 11:09look at it, it was right there in the on call UI;
24 11:09always present.
25 11:09 Q Interesting.
REDACTED
SoftView Exhibit 2014-42 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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1 11:09 A In fact, I would use that instead of my
2 11:09office phone because I couldn't figure out how to make
3 11:09a conference call. And my office phone, without my
4 11:09assistant, could be on my iPhone.
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21 11:31 MR. HEINRICH: Q. So what challenges did you
22 11:31face in designing a web browser that could bring the
23 11:31entire real Internet to a mobile phone?
24 11:31 A The mobile phone is relatively small compared
25 11:31to a computer. And at the time when someone was
REDACTED
SoftView Exhibit 2014-43 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
Page 43
1 11:31designing a website, web pages on that website, they
2 11:31generally thought about the size someone would view
3 11:32that website on a computer. They weren't considering
4 11:32what it would look like, how it would behave on a
5 11:32small device, except for the people who were creating
6 11:32these small WAP sites. But for the main homepage of
7 11:32the New York Times, of the Yahoo! home site, it was
8 11:32designed for a computer.
9 11:32 And so one challenge had to do with content
10 11:32that was created for a window size significantly
11 11:32different from a mobile phone.
12 11:32 A second challenge we faced was designing a
13 11:32touch interface. We were designing the iPhone to work
14 11:32based on your finger touching, and that's not what the
15 11:33Internet in general had been designed around. It was
16 11:33designed around a mouse and physical keyboard
17 11:33paradigm. And so we had to consider the challenges
18 11:33for designing a complete interface for a mobile device
19 11:33to see the web.
20 11:33 There were challenges related to the
21 11:33performance of the processor on a mobile device. The
22 11:33processor was considerably slower than a modern
23 11:33computer at the time.
24 11:34 The speed of the data connection on a mobile
25 11:34device was slower than the general speed on a
SoftView Exhibit 2014-44 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
Page 44
1 11:34computer, especially when the computer was plugged
2 11:34into the Internet. But even over wireless networks
3 11:34like Wi-Fi, a Wi-Fi network speed would surpass that
4 11:34of the original iPhone.
5 11:34 The amount of memory we had in the iPhone was
6 11:34less than the amount of memory in a computer. So we
7 11:34had to deal with performance issues related to memory
8 11:34limitations.
9 11:35 There are probably others that I'm not
10 11:35thinking of right at this second.
11 11:35 Q So in light of these and potentially other
12 11:35challenges, is it fair to say you couldn't just take a
13 11:35web browsing solution for a desktop and just port it
14 11:35to a mobile phone?
15 11:35 A Correct.
16 11:35 Q A lot of changes would be -- would need to be
17 11:35made and a lot of challenges would be overcome;
18 11:35correct?
19 11:35 A We hoped to overcome many of the challenges,
20 11:35yes.
21 11:35 Q So the first challenge you mentioned had to
22 11:35do with the web content that was created for a window
23 11:35size significantly different for a mobile phone.
24 11:35 How did you address that challenge?
25 11:36 A We used a number of techniques.
SoftView Exhibit 2014-45 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
Page 45
1 11:36 One technique, which is captured in part in
2 11:36the '163 patent, was the ability for a user to
3 11:36double-tap on a logical or semantic region of a web
4 11:36page, say, a story, a caption, an image, a video or
5 11:36other logical or semantic regions, and have the iPhone
6 11:36determine what region the user -- in what region the
7 11:36user was expressing interest, and then zoom and
8 11:36substantially center that semantic region for the user
9 11:36to read or look at or watch.
10 11:37 Q So let's take an example where a user is
11 11:37viewing the New York Times website on an iPhone.
12 11:37 The solution that's described in your
13 11:37'163 patent covers, for example, the situation where a
14 11:37user taps on a column that appears in the Times'
15 11:37website, and the iPhone browser zooms into that column
16 11:37so that it fills the screen; correct?
17 11:37 MR. LYON: Objection; vague and to the extent
18 11:37it calls for a legal conclusion.
19 11:38 THE WITNESS: If a user is viewing a New York
20 11:38Times website on the iPhone, and they see a story, and
21 11:38they'd like to read that story, and that story may
22 11:38appear in a box somewhere on that page, the
23 11:38'163 patent covers the concept of sort of
24 11:38double-tapping on that story and having it zoom in,
25 11:38substantially center it, and then double-tap and zoom
SoftView Exhibit 2014-46 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
Page 46
1 11:38between other parts of that story or other stories.
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-47 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-48 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
Page 48
1 11:42
2 11:42 THE WITNESS: I view the functionality of
3 11:42enabling a user to double-tap and zoom in and move
4 11:42between different regions on a web page to be very
5 11:42important, yes.
6 11:42
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-49 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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15 11:44 MR. HEINRICH: Q. And one of the examples
16 11:44that you gave in your testimony in the Apple v.
17 11:45Samsung case was the example of a user who is tapping
18 11:45on a column in a web page; correct?
19 11:45 A I believe so.
20 11:45 Q And then having that column zoomed in on to
21 11:45fill the page, that's an important feature of the
22 11:45iPhone's browser interface; correct?
23 11:45 MR. LYON: Objection; vague and to the extent
24 11:45it mischaracterizes testimony.
25 11:45 THE WITNESS: Could you repeat the question.
REDACTED
SoftView Exhibit 2014-50 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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1 11:45I --
2 11:45 MR. HEINRICH: Sure.
3 11:45 Q And then having that column zoomed in to fill
4 11:45the page, that's an important feature of the iPhone's
5 11:45browser interface; correct?
6 11:45 MR. LYON: Same objection.
7 11:45 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure what you mean by
8 11:45"fill the page," to have a story --
9 11:45 MR. HEINRICH: I'm sorry.
10 11:45 THE WITNESS: -- or a semantic region to
11 11:46substantially fill the screen in the device.
12 11:46 MR. HEINRICH: Yeah. I'm sorry. I misspoke.
13 11:46I'm trying to just, you know, refer to your testimony
14 11:46here.
15 11:46 Q So you agree that tapping on a logical region
16 11:46of a web page, such as a column, the example that you
17 11:46gave in your prior testimony, and having that column
18 11:46zoomed in on to fill the screen, you regard that as an
19 11:46important feature of the iPhone's browser interface;
20 11:46correct?
21 11:46 MR. LYON: Objection; vague.
22 11:46 THE WITNESS: I think being able to tap on a
23 11:46logical region, say, a story or a column of a story as
24 11:46a logical region, and enabling that to zoom in and
25 11:46substantially fill the screen is a useful feature,
SoftView Exhibit 2014-51 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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REDACTED
SoftView Exhibit 2014-52 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-53 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
Page 53
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-54 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
Page 54
1 11:52
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6 11:52 MR. HEINRICH: Q. How else did you address
7 11:52the challenge that had to do with browsing on the
8 11:52iPhone content that was created for a window
9 11:52significantly larger than the iPhone display?
10 11:52 A When you have content that's created for a
11 11:52larger window than fits on the display, you can shrink
12 11:52down that window to fit the entire content on the
13 11:52phone. That causes all the fonts to be really, really
14 11:53small.
15 11:53 Because of this, we chose to increase the
16 11:53font size in some places so that when zoomed in to fit
17 11:53the screen or even when zoomed out at times, the font
18 11:53would be legible and readable.
19 11:53 This was even if that new font size may
20 11:53violate the request of the website developer for a
21 11:53specific font size, because our thought was, they
22 11:53didn't design that website for this device, and so we
23 11:53should help the website operate correctly for our
24 11:53users on the device.
25 11:53
REDACTED
REDACTED
SoftView Exhibit 2014-55 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
Page 55
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8 11:54 Q Did you also implement panning as a way to
9 11:54address the small screen size of the iPhone?
10 11:54 MR. LYON: Objection; vague.
11 11:54 THE WITNESS: The iPhone was based on a touch
12 11:55screen -- a capacitive touch screen. And as such,
13 11:55throughout the iPhone we used the conceit that you
14 11:55could put your finger on the screen and move it along,
15 11:55and you would translate the content underneath it.
16 11:55One of the places we used that was in the web browser
17 11:55itself.
18 11:55 We also used the concept of a two-finger
19 11:55pinch or de-pinch, which allowed you to place two
20 11:55fingers on the screen, and when you pinched inward, it
21 11:55would make the content smaller, a web page smaller, to
22 11:55see more content. When you moved your fingers farther
23 11:55away from each other, it would grow the size of the
24 11:55content.
25 11:55
REDACTED
REDACTED
SoftView Exhibit 2014-56 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
Page 56
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REDACTED
SoftView Exhibit 2014-57 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
Page 57
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REDACTED
SoftView Exhibit 2014-58 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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REDACTED
SoftView Exhibit 2014-59 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
Page 59
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REDACTED
SoftView Exhibit 2014-60 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-61 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-62 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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REDACTED
SoftView Exhibit 2014-63 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
Page 63
1 12:10
2 12:10 Q And it was very, very difficult to build a
3 12:10user interface that could work on an iPhone-sized
4 12:10device?
5 12:10 A Absolutely.
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REDACTED
SoftView Exhibit 2014-64 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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REDACTED
SoftView Exhibit 2014-65 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-66 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-67 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-68 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-69 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-70 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-71 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-72 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-73 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-74 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-75 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-76 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-77 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-78 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-79 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-80 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-81 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
Page 81
1 13:47 So why couldn't you simply look to desktop
2 13:47user interfaces to use for the iPhone?
3 13:47 MR. LYON: Objection; asked and answered.
4 13:47 THE WITNESS: As I stated earlier, there's
5 13:47many different challenges we had with the iPhone which
6 13:47are different from a desktop. They revolve around a
7 13:47number of different features, including the size of
8 13:47the screen, the computing power, the touch screen
9 13:48display on the iPhone versus a non-touch screen
10 13:48display on a computer.
11 13:48 MR. HEINRICH: Okay. I'm going to mark as
12 13:48Exhibit 5 an article entitled "Pad++: A Zoomable
13 13:48Graphical Interface System."
14 13:48 (Document marked Forstall Exhibit 5
15 13:48 for identification.)
16 13:48 MR. HEINRICH: Apologies for the lack of a
17 13:48staple there.
18 13:48 MR. LYON: Thank you.
19 13:48
20 13:48
21 13:48
22 13:48 Q Do you see the -- one of the authors of this
23 13:48article is a gentleman named Benjamin B. Bederson;
24 13:49right?
25 13:49 A I see that.
REDACTED
SoftView Exhibit 2014-82 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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8 13:49 Q Now, if you'd turn to the second page of this
9 13:49article.
10 13:49 At the top of the page there is Figure 1,
11 13:49which is described as a screen dump showing a series
12 13:49of World Wide -- World -- World Wide Web homepages
13 13:49loaded into Pad++; do you see that?
14 13:49 A I do.
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REDACTED
REDACTED
SoftView Exhibit 2014-83 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
Page 83
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4 13:50 Q Okay. Well, you can put that away.
5 13:51 So when a -- an iPhone user double-taps on an
6 13:51item on a web page, such as a column, what is the
7 13:52algorithm that the iPhone uses to detect which item in
8 13:52the web page the user intended to target?
9 13:52 A I didn't implement the algorithm myself. I
10 13:52can tell you what the goals of the algorithm are, but
11 13:52I can't tell you specifically what the algorithm is
12 13:52and how it's -- precisely it works.
13 13:52 Q Okay.
14 13:52 A So the goal of it is to determine the
15 13:52semantics or logical box that the user cares to zoom
16 13:52and -- and pay attention to. The challenge is with
17 13:52HTML, there are many, many different boxes in there.
18 13:52 A -- an article with a hyperlink in the
19 13:52middle of it actually embeds a box for that hyperlink.
20 13:53But when the user double-taps on that article to read
21 13:53it, it's unlikely they mean to zoom all the way into
22 13:53that single hyperlink within the article. It's more
23 13:53likely they would like to read the article itself or a
24 13:53single column of a multicolumn article.
25 13:53 Likewise, you might have a story, and the
REDACTED
SoftView Exhibit 2014-84 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
Page 84
1 13:53first letter of the story for, say, a news story might
2 13:53be much larger, like the New York Times has done in
3 13:53the past. It's unlikely, again, that the user is
4 13:53double-tapping to see a large T. They likely want to
5 13:53zoom in to read the article itself.
6 13:53 So the goal of the algorithm is to determine
7 13:53which of these logical boxes makes sense and choose
8 13:53that one, and then zoom it in and substantially center
9 13:53it for the user to read.
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-85 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-86 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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17 14:00 Q And -- and this double-tap-to-zoom feature
18 14:00enabled you personally to browse the web much more
19 14:00quickly and fluidly; correct?
20 14:00 MR. LYON: Objection; vague.
21 14:00 THE WITNESS: The invention of being able to
22 14:00double-tap on a logical region, have that logical
23 14:00region determined by the iPhone, and then have that
24 14:00zoom substantially centered, being able to double-tap
25 14:00on others and navigate around a web page, helped my
REDACTED
SoftView Exhibit 2014-87 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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1 14:00experience on browsing the web on the iPhone.
2 14:01 MR. HEINRICH: Q. Would you say dramatically
3 14:01changed how you use the web on the iPhone?
4 14:01 A I would add "dramatically" into my last
5 14:01description.
6 14:01 Q Okay. Was that feature difficult to
7 14:01implement?
8 14:01 A I believe it was pretty difficult.
9 14:01 Q And at one point did you think it may not
10 14:01even be possible to do it?
11 14:01 A We had an outstanding team on the iPhone, and
12 14:01there were a few things that they couldn't do once we
13 14:01knew what we wanted to accomplish. This I certainly
14 14:01thought was a challenge, especially determining the
15 14:01right regions to select when the user tapped on a
16 14:01given area of a web page. I personally had faith they
17 14:02could figure it out, but it wasn't a slam dunk at all.
18 14:02 Q Did you think it was super hard, maybe not
19 14:02possible, to come up with this feature?
20 14:02 MR. LYON: Objection; vague; asked and
21 14:02answered.
22 14:02 THE WITNESS: I thought it was challenging to
23 14:02implement. If you've ever edited HTML, if you've
24 14:02taken a web page and you've e-mailed it to someone,
25 14:02and you've tried to select the text of HTML in a text
SoftView Exhibit 2014-88 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
Page 88
1 14:02editor, you find HTML is very complex. And that led
2 14:02me to believe finding the right region -- the right
3 14:02semantic region would be a very difficult problem.
4 14:02But I had an abundance of faith in my team to
5 14:02implement it.
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-89 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-90 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-91 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-92 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-93 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-94 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-95 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-96 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-97 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-98 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-99 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-100 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-101 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-102 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-103 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-104 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-105 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-106 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-107 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-108 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-109 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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1 14:42 The time is 2:42.
2 14:42 (WHEREUPON, the deposition ended
3 14:42 at 2:42 p.m.)
4 ---oOo---
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-110 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013
800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles
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1 J U R A T
2
3
4
5 I, SCOTT FORSTALL, do hereby certify under
6 penalty of perjury that I have read the foregoing
7 transcript of my deposition taken on May 3,
8 2013; that I have made such corrections as appear
9 noted herein in ink, initialed by me; that my
10 testimony as contained herein, as corrected, is
11 true and correct.
12
13 DATED this ____ day of _____________, 2013,
14 at _____________________________, California.
15
16
17
18
19
20 __________________________________
21 SIGNATURE OF WITNESS
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SoftView Exhibit 2014-111 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC
IPR2013-00004