cdn.vanderbilt.edu€¦ · Web viewI wasn’t used to hearing all these little diseases. And I didn’t even hear about ADHD until I came here, or Restless Foot Syndrome. I’m

Interview with Sochel Thomas Shibira Pasquariello 1


Interviewer: Ashley PasquarielloInterviewee: Sochel Thomas ShibiraYear of Birth: 1982Interview Date: April 2011Location of Interview: Nashville, TNInterview Duration: 68:24

Full Transcript:

INTERVIEWER: Ok so can you say your full name?

Shibira: Sochel Thomas Shibira

INTERVIEWER: Thank you so much for agreeing to participate in this project. It will surely benefit the community now and in the future. The goal of this questionnaire is to produce as detailed and coherent a narrative of your story as possible. In light of that, I encourage you to feel free to not worry about providing an answer that is too long or too in-depth. That’s what we want! I realize that you have already signed the consent form, but I also want to let you know that you should feel free to tell me if there’s any particular thing or things you say during the course of the interview that you’d like me to remove from the transcript or other preservation methods.

Alright, so just to start off, can you tell me about where you were born and what was going on while you were growing up and what it was like?

Shibira: I was born in Trinidad and Tobago. It’s basically two islands, one government. One has more I guess you would say industries and stuff going on, and one is basically, they call it the “untouched island,” that’s Tobago. It’s smaller, and so you can go there and you won’t have a whole bunch of factories’ smoke and all that stuff. When I was growing up? I don’t know, what was going on? Same old, same old, everybody, kids play all day, outside. School, I don’t know, is there something in particular?

INTERVIEWER: Just, things that, when you think back on your childhood, if there’s a story that sticks out in your mind.

Shibira: No, there’s not a story. I mean, when I think back on my childhood, what I think about is just the freedom that we don’t have over here in America. I don’t know how to explain it. I mean I was never really inside all the time, and so and I saw the sun every day. So, I can get depressed, I don’t know if that’s a kind of disease or something, but when I don’t see the sun I’m depressed. Like I get up and I don’t see the sun, my whole day is just whack. I don’t feel like cleaning, I don’t feel like cooking, I don’t do anything. So, it’s like when I see the sun I just get this energy like “AHH! I can do, I don’t know.”

And, I mean we didn’t have to drive everywhere, we could walk to where we want to. And we didn’t have to, if my mom didn’t cook we could go outside, pick some fruits, you know eat. And


I wasn’t used to hearing all these little diseases. And I didn’t even hear about ADHD until I came here, or Restless Foot Syndrome. I’m like “What is? What is? No.” I don’t know if it’s because we kind of eat more organically. It was considered 3rd world, and now everybody’s trying to do it, ha ha. But yea, I mean, we’re used to fruits right from the tree, and we don’t eat white sugar and stuff like that.

INTERVIEWER: So where did you attend elementary school, and do you remember what the school was like?

Shibira: I don’t even remember the name of the school. But it was an Adventist school, I’m a Seventh Day Adventist, and school was like regular school in Trinidad. They whoop your butt to learn. Yup. We all start school at 2. So, yea. So I was there, getting a whooping to learn my stuff.

INTERVIEWER: So is there a story in particular you remember well from that time?

Shibira: From elementary? I’m 28, what do I remember from elementary? I’m old! Um, no. Just getting whoopings. Ready to go home.

INTERVIEWER: That would be memorable.

Shibira: Mhmm.

INTERVIEWER: So you said it was a Seventh Day Adventist school, so what the ethnic, racial composition of your classmates and teachers?

Shibira: Uh, well, it was black and [East] Indian. It was kind of like half and half. And then in between it will be, well we call them “Dobles,” it’s mixed like Indian and black. They’re catching up, there’s a lot of them. And then we have the Asian, well Chinese, we have Spanish, and, well there’s a lot of Spanish but it’s kind of like, I don’t know how to explain it, kind of like, you know how you mix and stuff? So a lot of Spanish they’ll call themselves Indians but they’re really Spanish. Because in our country the first people that settled there were the Caribs and the Arawaks, they’re like, Indian-y, Spanish-y, whatever you want to call them. So, this guy, his name is Andy Garcia, but he says he’s Indian, but he’s really not. But that’s the ratio. The ratio is basically blacks and Indians.

INTERVIEWER: And your, teachers?

Shibira: Um, it was a mixture, blacks and Indians.

INTERVIEWER: So, outside of school, what were your childhood years like? Who were your best friends, what did you most like to do or get in to when you were a child?

Shibira: Uhh, I miss my best friends! We did totally different stuff than what you guys did. We didn’t go to the movies, or like “Hey, meet me here!” We didn’t do all that. We would walk home from school, we’d go press bells. As old as we were, like 15, we pressed bells and run. I mean, we’d just meet each other at the house and each person had different things to cook. We


played cricket. That was the thing to do. Cricket, and what you guys call soccer we call it football. That’s it. Or like my friend would come over from school and we’d go walking, looking for mangoes. Because, sometimes they’re not in season, but we know whose land has the mangoes so we’d go there, steal their mangoes. But it was fun because sometimes they’d catch us and we’d take off running.

INTERVIEWER: So where did you, do you remember where you went for middle school and high school?

Shibira: Well primary school I went to an Anglican school, St. Michael’s Anglican, and then secondary school I went to Prenticetown Secondary School. That’s a city school. And I came over here when I was almost done with secondary school.

INTERVIEWER: Ok. Do you remember what your favorite subjects or classes were?

Shibira: Music. And sports. Because it’s sort of kind of like…in Trinidad, you have a choice but you really don’t have a choice. After primary school, if you don’t pass the test to go to secondary school, they automatically—they might give you a chance, but they automatically are going to send you to a trade school. So, I passed the test, but they kind of like grade you on where you’re supposed to be. You could say you want to do this, but they’d be like “No, you need to do that.” So they had me in, I don’t remember what it was, kind of like a secretary kind of thing. I guess I wasn’t smart enough for them. But I was more in to the acting and stuff. Hence why my mother picked Mass Comm [Mass Communication] for me at TSU [Tennessee State University]. But that’s not what I wanted to do.

INTERVIEWER: Oh, ok. Did you do any—so you said your favorite was gym and sports and stuff?

Shibira: Yea and Spanish and stuff like that like.

INTERVIEWER: Ok. So did you participate in any extracurricular activities like drama or volunteering?

Shibira: Yea. I used to do drama all the time. Singing, and sports.

INTERVIEWER: How did you become involved?

Shibira: How did I?

INTERVIEWER: Yea, like was it through your school, your church, or just through your neighborhood?

Shibira: Both. Neighborhood, school, church. Because I always liked stuff like that.

INTERVIEWER: Did you parents or grandparents or any other elders in your family try and get you involved in anything else that you weren’t as interested in?


Shibira: No. Ahh. This is Trinidad we’re talking about. I mean, the parents there are like. I don’t know how to explain. You know how your parents like would be like, “Well, I’m going to put you in music, and I’m going to put you in that, to see what you like.” It’s kind of like “Pluhh, whatever.” They yell at you. “You better learn your school work!” Like, education, that’s what they push you in. That’s it. If you do anything, yea, they’ll come and support you a little bit but it’s not big like that. Unless you’re like maybe going to the Olympics or something.

INTERVIEWER: But it’s about your schoolwork.

Shibira: Yea. It’s all about—when we have free time, it’s “Read a book! Read a book! Read a book!” That’s all they say.

INTERVIEWER: So did you ever, were you allowed to watch TV or did you ever watch TV when you were younger?

Shibira: Oh, yea, but not a lot. Just maybe on the weekends.

INTERVIEWER: Do you remember any of your favorite TV programs?

Shibira: Oh yea, I used to love watching Indian movies. I loved them! And then there was this one called, I don’t remember what it was called, but on Sunday afternoons it would teach you how to do Indian dance. So they teach us to dance. That was my favorite!

INTERVIEWER: Ok.

Shibira: But there was this one American show they used to show! Um, I don’t remember. It was about this guy, and he was like, what do you call them, he had Down Syndrome, and they had this—Corky was his name?

INTERVIEWER: Yea!

Shibira: You know what I’m talking about?

INTERVIEWER: Yea.

Shibira: But I don’t remember the name. It was a long time ago.

INTERVIEWER: I don’t remember the name either. [The show is Life Goes On.]

Shibira: That used to come on, it had that song [humming] “Na na na, life goes on” Right?

INTERVIEWER: I think I know what you’re talking about!

Shibira: Yea. I liked that show too.


INTERVIEWER: Ok. So they didn’t have very many American shows on TV?

Shibira: No. If it was it was like old, like you guys already saw that. We just got like cable or something down there.

INTERVIEWER: So you said you did read for pleasure?

Shibira: Yea. Oh yes, I loved reading.

INTERVIEWER: Ok. So what are some of the, what kinds of books would you read?

Shibira: I used to get Mark Twain books all the time, because he had those small little books, and they were like $5, so I used to go get all his books. And then my mom had a lot of medical books, so I used to go read all her books. And then when she didn’t want to tell me where babies come from, I read a book.

INTERVIEWER: [Chuckle]. Smart. Were there any, did you look at magazines or anything like that too, or was it mostly…

Shibira: Um, no. I never had a magazine til I came over here.

INTERVIEWER: So did you keep up with politics or current events when you were in secondary school?

Shibira: Yea, I did. But it’s kind of, I mean, that’s the thing. Old people like talking about that. So, but, it’s weird. Back in my country, they sing about everything, so you always know what’s going on. So, if anything happens, a Calypso music is going to come out and it’s going to be all about what’s going on in the country. So even if you don’t read the papers, you’re going to hear it through a song. They sing about everything.

INTERVIEWER: So what’s one of the political or cultural—or current—events that you remember well?

Shibira: [Pause]. Well, I remember when, I don’t know, something about a guy was going around killing people or some craziness like that, and then, like all the men in our whole village, they went and they stayed up all night, for like a couple of nights, until they caught him. And they would like block the road off and they would stay up all night to make sure everybody was safe. I remember that. And, I remember in where I lived there were more blacks. So like if the Indian party, you know how over here you guys have the TV, Internet? They used to drive around and they’d have big ol’ speakers on their car, and they would be like, “OH, vote for la-dee-da-dee-da!” And they’d try to do a whole bunch of different things. [Laughter]. And so when the Indian party tried to come into our village, the men would have stickers and be like “GET OUT OF HERE!” and their [the Indian party’s] sign was the rising sun, and they’d say “The sun can’t rise!” And so they ran them out of there so they can’t come back. Yea. I remember that.


INTERVIEWER: Yea, that’s different campaigns than what we have here [laughter]. So do you remember how you felt emotionally about these campaigns and politics and things?

Shibira: Uh, I was never into it. I read it and everything just to get, keep up. I didn’t care. To me, either way, whoever won, there’re still going to do whatever they want. They might say they’re going to help the people, but it boils down to if they’re going to do it. So it was never really a big deal to me. It was just like, whatever. Plus, I was in love with Indian guys! [Laughter]. So obviously I thought when I grew up I knew I was just going to vote for the Indian campaign. Yea.

INTERVIEWER: So what was your social life like when you were in high school?

Shibira: What social life?! Please! Are you crazy? My social life was just begging my mom to go to my friend’s house or telling her, “Hey, come over!” So I could have a social life. No, there was no social life. I never even had a boyfriend until I came to America. And I still had to sneak around to have a boyfriend. Crazy! I couldn’t even look at a guy. My mom—my parents would kill me. Crazy!

INTERVIEWER: That was actually what I was going to ask you next—if you, so you didn’t date at all?

Shibira: Never! I didn’t even think about it!

INTERVIEWER: What do you think you would have, what your parents would have done if you told them you were dating?

Shibira: Kill me. Yea. Kill me! There’s no if, ands, or butts, it’d be like [gun shots].

INTERVIEWER: So who were your closest friends?

Shibira: Their names?

INTERVIEWER: Sure. And anything about them that you want to talk about.

Shibira: Well, my best friend of all, her name was Avian. And she was mixed with Indian and black. And we were like really good friends when we were in primary school. And so, after primary school—well, she started acting like a little bad, that’s what we call them, bad, because she would kiss boys behind the school and stuff. And so I’d be like “Ahh!” because I was this goody-two-shoes, I’d go tell my mother, and my mother would go tell her mother. So I guess she started not liking me because she’d think I’d tell on her. But anyways, we were still friends.

And then when we went to secondary school, she, we kind of parted because she started hanging with the Indian kids more. In primary school I hanged with all the Indian kids. But when I got to secondary school, I kind of saw the big gap. So she started hanging with the Indian kids, and I started hanging with more black kids, so we kind of like parted. I still miss her. And then she was dating this older guy, so I could not hang out with her because I did not want to get that


reputation. I remember his name, too. Ricky. Hmm. I think she has two kids by him now. He looked like he was crazy, like he was on drugs.

INTERVIEWER: So, tell me more about your parents. Like, what they’re like and what stories people in your family tell about them.

Shibira: My mother is crazy. That’s what they call her. They say she’s crazy. Because she is crazy. She loved to whoop for everything and yell for everything. [Laughter]. Oh, what can I say about her? I mean, we’re close. She would do anything for me, but, it’s kind of she’s not that emotional type of person. Well, none of my parents are. But, when I was growing up I was closer to my dad more, because he’s the type, he’ll say, “I will beat ‘cha!” you know what I’m saying? So he would whoop me, but he wouldn’t beat us, my mom would beat us for everything. And like when I grew up I kind of figured out why. Because I guess she was stressed, because my dad was a cheater. Yea. Big time cheater. And I was such a Daddy’s girl, I’d be like “why is this woman crying?” Like, uh, why does she keep bugging my dad? My dad is not doing that to her. But when you’re younger, and you know my dad was the sweet one, because he’s the one who played with us at night, we’d have hide and seek and stuff. And she’s the one who was always like “Ahh, Ahh!” you know when I grew up I kind of figured out like “oh.” But hey, my dad is still my daddy.

[17:54]

INTERVIEWER: So how would you characterize your relationships with your parents when you were young, and did you feel like you had to hide things from them…

Shibira: Yes! Well my dad’s a man, so I’m not going to talk to him about certain things. But I always wished I could talk to my mom about a whole lot of stuff that happened. But it was kind of like she always made stuff “Hey, why did you do that?” I always felt like it was my fault, so I just never talked to her about anything.

INTERVIEWER: Do you think your relationship changed as you got older?

Shibira: With my mom? Yea, I mean, now that I’m grown she can’t do anything to me. So, whatever. I mean, I’m not rude to her, but like, for example, my hair, I went back natural. And she’s just like “Waaa waaa, look at your hair! It looks terrible! Why don’t you straighten it?” And I’m like, it’s my hair, I was born this way, and I’m going to keep it this way. So just stuff like that.

INTERVIEWER: So tell me about your grandparents and other people in your extended family.

Shibira: Ohh my grandparents. Well my grandmother on my mom’s side, both her husbands already died. She’s still alive and kickin. She travels all over. She lives in London. She, I could tell she was 10 times worse than my mom, you know how they always say however bad you think your mom is their mom is 10 times… yea. I could tell that she was. But you know of course she’s calmed down now because she is, you know, has grandkids or whatever.


On my dad’s side, uhh, those people. My grandmother doesn’t like my mom. Because my grandmother is actually Spanish and Indian, and she’s like, really long hair and stuff. And my mom was too dark. And so, yea. But her husband is dark? Yea, I could never understand that. So my mom was kind of the black sheep in the family. Like, never liked her or whatever.

My grandmother’s weird. My grandfather has been cheating for years. He basically just fired the woman that’s been working with him and this has been going on since before I was born. So they’ve been together, and like she still does the same thing. Like when I went back home to visit I was shocked. I was like “Oh my God, she still does it.” She wakes up in the morning, turns on the news for my grandfather, makes his breakfast, she always makes sure—my grandpa loves nuts, I guess that’s where I got it from—so she always makes sure there’s a jar full of parched nuts for him, and she makes his, I mean it’s a set schedule. She makes his food, all his food must be in a separate bowl. He doesn’t like his beans touching this and la-dee-da-dee-da. Yea. I mean, everything. And then lunch time, she cooks at the same time. And she prepares food for that woman. Well, I mean, up until 2 years ago when he fired that woman. Shop closed down so they’re not together anymore. I don’t’ think they were like doing it, because they’re really old, doing it any more, but yea. And she used to make food for that woman too, and send it with my grandpa. I’m like WHAT! And then one day she tried to tell me, “If your husband ever cheats on you, don’t do anything.” She told me, “Just, when he lays at night, just ask him why.” I was sitting there, I didn’t tell her this, but I was like “Is that what YOU did?” Ok, uhh. But I guess that’s because, you know, the old way, you know, totally dedicated to your husband.

INTERVIEWER: What were, so besides the stories of how to treat your husband, did any of the people in your family, the elders, try to tell you stories that you remember?

Shibira: Well I remember my great-grandmother who I love so much, she used to tell us stories, just back in the day, how they made mud dolls to play with and stuff like that. Oh and my grandmother, the one in London, she used to tell stories about how she was the most beautiful in the village. Because her dad is actually Portugese and her mom is black. And so she was really spoiled, too. So she would tell us stories about one day, they used to always make big old pots of food. Some of the kids would be mean to her because they didn’t like her. And so they were using her pot. So she said as soon as her food was done, she’d grab the pot and she ran home. Just stuff like that.

Oh, and I remember the story of, in Guyana, between the blacks and the Indians, the Indians were going around trying to hurt the blacks and burn their houses down. And they all had to run, I remember. I think my mom was born too, yea. So they had to run, that’s how they moved to different places. Some craziness.

INTERVIEWER: So were there [phone rings]. So were there any other sayings or lessons that the elders in your life repeated or tried to impress upon you?

Shibira: Uh, “You make your bed, you lie in it.” We hear that all the time. And what else did they say? Oh, “Who don hurt does feel.” They say that all the time. Oh, and they always tell us, “Cheap thing not good and good thing not cheap.” [Laughter]. It’s just little sayings that they say all the time. But a lot of times I say most of the stuff, like Guyanese stuff, some thing I just


learned too. And so I was in church and I had to tell, you know, a story to the kids, based on Trinidad or whatever. And so I made these little things that every kid in Trinidad knows how to make. If you’re hungry and your parents don’t cook, you can make it. If you don’t have no food, you make it. It’s called Sweet Bake. It’s basically just flour, sugar, and water. You can put a little bit of essence in it, so I told them, “Hey, I’m going the children’s story” and I’m telling them and she’s like “That’s not even Trinidadian food, that’s Guyanese.” And I had to think about it. Like, I didn’t realize it, but a lot of food we ate was Guyanese, not Trinidadian food, because my mom is Guyanese. And so I thought about it, and I was like yea, during Christmas everybody would try to come over and taste, eat my mother’s food, but they never had it at their house. And I’m like, “ahh, yea.”

INTERVIEWER: When you think about your family, and your roots or your heritage, what thoughts or feelings come to your mind?

Shibira: Uh, I always wish that people in my family would want to tell more about our roots and stuff. Because I always wanted to know more and I always wish the older people were alive to tell more history and stuff. I think my roots… I love my roots! Because it’s just like all over. Black, Spanish, Carib, Portuguese.

INTERVIEWER: Do you have any stories that you think of, that come to your mind, when you think about the pride that you have for your roots?

Shibira: No, just a song. There’s just this one song, that, whenever you listen to it, it just, like, as a Caribbean woman, it’s just… It’s called “Faluma Ding Ding Ding” and it’s kind of like, it’s a song from Suriname, but this woman came and she revised it, and you know, it showed the history of the Caribbean. That song comes to my mind. It’s in another language.

INTERVIEWER: But you just sort of, you know what it’s about?

Shibira: Yea. Because they depict everything. From the people that first settled, to the slaves, and the indentured workers and stuff like that. That’s how the Indians came into our country, by the way. They were indentured workers, and now they’re trying to take over.

INTERVIEWER: So when you say Indians you mean people from India?

Shibira: Yea. East India.

INTERVIEWER: Right. Versus the people from… are there any indigenous people on the island?

Shibira: No, they basically, I’m sure there are. But they’re not living like that. Yea.

INTERVIEWER: Ok.

Shibira: Because my grandmother is half Carib.


INTERVIEWER: So what is, you lived, you were born in Trinidad. Did you ever live in Guyana?

Shibira: No.

INTERVIEWER: Ok. So when, how old were you when you moved to Nashville?

Shibira: 15

INTERVIEWER: Ok. What made you want or need to come to America?

Shibira: Well, because in America, as far as education and stuff, and getting a chance to better yourself, it’s more easy here. In Trinidad you either have to be rich or really smart. So, chances are I probably never would have made it to college. Or maybe I would have. Because, I mean, right now college is actually free. Which is rare. And now the Indians are trying to actually fix it so that it’s not. When the black guy came in power—there’s only like 2 parties that always win, PNM and UNC. So when he came, he actually fixed it so that everybody could go to school. That was like 4 years ago?

INTERVIEWER: What’s the PNM and UNC stand for?

Shibira: PNM is People’s National Movement and UNC is United National Congress. So, I mean, chances are, who knows if I would’ve made it to college. I don’t know. I might have, I may not have, so you know coming over here you get a better chance for your education and getting a job. There are more jobs over here. Because I could’ve gotten my degree and still not have a job. Yea. INTERVIEWER: Did any of your family members move here with you?

[29:05]

Shibira: Yea. Um, well, my mother’s family is the one that filed for us to come up here. Her brothers and sisters are actually here.

INTERVIEWER: They live in Nashville?

Shibira: Mhmm. [Yes.]

INTERVIEWER: Ok. Do you know why they chose Nashville?

Shibira: Well, I know they were all in New York. Well, when we first moved we were in New York for 2 weeks, and my aunt told my mother not to stay there because New York is not a great place to raise kids. So I guess, Nashville.

INTERVIEWER: Growing up, your, so your mother made a lot of food from Guyana? So did she teach you how to make that food?


Shibira: Yes! I love to cook.

INTERVIEWER: So do you cook mostly food, what kind of food do you cook now for your kids?

Shibira: Well, I cook mostly Indian food.

INTERVIEWER: Oh ok!

Shibira: I love Indian food! I mean, Indian food from Guyana is the same as Indian food in Trinidad or whatever.

INTERVIEWER: Ok.

Shibira: I love cooking Curry, and Chapatis, or, I’m a vegetarian now, so, I mean, the other day I made this potato soup with greens on the side and chapatis, you know. But like you know with the potato soup I’ll put masala with a little bit of curry and stuff like that in it. I love making samosas, vegetable samosas and stuff like that.

INTERVIEWER: So what would you say your favorite food is?

Shibira: Rice, and curry. Any kind of curry.

INTERVIEWER: Practical!

Shibira: [Laughter] Yep!

INTERVIEWER: So, thinking back to when you were growing, what were family meal times like? Can you paint a picture of a typical dinner?

Shibira: Ok, dinner time. The first thing that came to my mind is this thing called Dashing Bush Rice and Stew Chicken. Maybe some fried plantains on the side? Basically it’s always rice. Sometimes soup, but mostly rice.

INTERVIEWER: So do you eat special foods for holidays?

Shibira: Yea, for holiday time my mom always made this thing called Pepper Soup. It’s like basically cow boiled really soft with this thing called Caser, it’s burnt sugar and stuff, and um, pineapple pies, beef patties, pastels, that’s like a Spanish thing. Kind of like tamales. Oh, you have to have the rum cake. Oh and this thing called Punchacram. It’s kind of like egg nog but better. It’s really good.

INTERVIEWER: So are there any other, besides food, any other holiday traditions in your family?


Shibira: In my family?

INTERVIEWER: Or that you participate in with your friends or in your neighborhood?

Shibira: Yea, in my neighborhood during Christmas they like to go around to each house. They play Parang, kind of like Mexican music, sorta. You play the little guitar. But it’s more hype. You know how sometimes Mexicans drag it on? Our’s is like [humming] so you jump in, you walk around, and then there’s Carnival time. Carnival time is…whooo Lord! It’s crazy. Because right after is Lent, to cleanse yourself. Uh, go figure. So, basically they have a morning called Jouvert morning. You have mud all over you and you walk through the streets and dance. Basically Carnival is all about dancing, eating, partying. That’s it. Oh, the costumes! Don’t forget the costumes.

INTERVIEWER: Yea. I’ve seen pictures of my friend who lives in Brazil.

Shibira: Oh Brazil I think they’re way past us.

INTERVIEWER: Do you remember music, besides the music that had political ties and the celebration music, but any other music that was played in your house?

Shibira: Yea. Calypso, Soca, some Reggae.

INTERVIEWER: What kind of music did you listen to on your own?

Shibira: All of them. Oh no no no, ok. I listened to all of them, but my friends and I, we used to have a little notebooks and we used to write all the Brandi music, all the, the other one.

INTERVIEWER: Like Ashanti,

Shibira: No, not Ashanti. I don’t think Ashanti was there then. This is more back in the days. I’m older than you, yea! Monica and who else? Michael Jackson, of course. And so we used to have our little notebooks so we could write all the words and know all the words to sing it and stuff.

[34:39]

INTERVIEWER: So tell me about what type of clothes you wore in middle school—or in secondary school?

Shibira: Psshhh… what clothes? We had uniforms for everything.

INTERVIEWER: So outside of school did you consider yourself to be fashionable?

Shibira: No, are you crazy? My mom sewed basically all our clothes. Or when my grandma came from London she would bring us clothes and stuff. I guess I was fashionable, but I didn’t consider myself that. But we were never with the latest styles. I was never like into clothes. I was a really big tomboy. Yea, really big.


INTERVIEWER: Did you ever try to convey any type of message about yourself through your clothes, make-up, accessories, how you wore your hair?

Shibira: Are you crazy? Make-up? Are you out of your mind? Make-up? Uhh that wasn’t even I my repertoire. No, we don’t do make-up. Are you crazy? Do you want my Mamma to slap me? No, um. Well, yes, because remember I told you I was in love with Indian boys? So I always wanted, I always wanted to be more Indian. So I always made my mom straighten my hair because, back then, you know, my hair was longer and so I always make her straighten my hair out with a hot comb, if I could wear it down because it came all the way down to her [points to torso]. Or, like, um, there’s this joke in Trinidad. They call people, they call it “Water Doglos” [spelling?] because when I wet my hair and I moisturize it it’s like really curly, so it would be all the way down here, so I’d be like “Oh, now they see I have Indian in me!” [Laughter]. So basically that’s what I did.

INTERVIEWER: To try to get the boys to notice you?

Shibira: Yea…

INTERVIEWER: Did it work?

Shibira: Well, it’s like I did it, but I wasn’t like, I don’t know how to explain it. I wanted them to look at me, but I didn’t want them. Because then I’d be in trouble. So like, you know, I was in love with Indian guys, but I never pursued it, like you know, “Oh, I want them to try to talk to me.” No, it wasn’t like that. You know, of course, as a girl you want, you know.

INTERVIEWER: So as a teenager in secondary school how did you define your identity—ethnically or racially? Was it more important to you that you were a woman, did you ever think about it?

Shibira: No. It was just whatever. I was just like, “Let me make sure and get all A’s before I get a whooping.”

INTERVIEWER: So you were a scholar.

Shibira: Yea. I had to be. You had no other choice.

INTERVIEWER: When you, so after 15 when you moved to America, did that change at all, how you saw yourself?

Shibira: Ohh. Yea, because when we came over here everybody was dressing up to go to school and stuff. Let me tell you what happened to us when we first came here. Uhh. So you know we were used to uniforms. Even some of our colleges have uniforms. So when we came here, there were just trying to get, this was ’97, and they were just trying to get into a kind of uniform thing in the school. But it wasn’t like a real uniform like everybody wear jeans or whatever. So the principal told my mother that. So my mother bought us 3 jeans, because in Trinidad you have


like 3 uniforms, right, it’s the same thing. She bought us 3 jeans and 3 tops. And that’s what we had to wear to school. So everybody was like laughing at us, and making fun of us. And we were too scared to tell our mom because we were like “Oh, she’s going to yell at us.” But then the principal told her that, so, she’s going to be like, “Oh, you just want to be like these American kids!” And then the thing that broke me down was, I was in class, and these girls were like, “Hey, we have something for you.” I was like “what?” They brought me this bag of old clothes that they all put together. I’m sitting there like “I’m not poor!” And I was crying, and they’re like “what’s wrong with her?” And so they all start pulling clothes like this, because, I mean even though we’re like 3rd world in Trinidad, you don’t wear anybody else’s clothes. Your parents will sew your clothes, you know, whatever, but you don’t wear hand-me downs. You might, from your sister maybe, but you don’t—

INTERVIEWER: Not from a stranger.

Shibira: Yea! Or you don’t, you wouldn’t go to the store, like you know how you guys have Thrift stores, buy clothes from people? You wouldn’t do that, never. So I’m like “I’m not poor!” and they were looking at me like I was crazy, with, you know, they didn’t understand.

INTERVIEWER: So, do you, would you say that how you defined yourself was based on something that you got to decide or other people kind of put those things on you?

Shibira: You mean like in high school over here?

INTERVIEWER: Yea, over here.

Shibira: When I moved to high school over here I automatically just hanged out with foreign kids. So like all my friends were foreign kids, except I ran track so I had friends that were track. The weird thing is my best friend over here was American. But everyone else I hanged out with was, well mostly Africans. That’s the weird thing. They were mostly African- from Sudan or whatever, but I guess I define myself, like “I’m a foreigner.” That’s what I love being. I’m a Trinidadian.

INTERVIEWER: Did your definition of yourself, you felt like it changed when you got older and moved here?

Shibira: Yea. Like, I mean, because when I first moved here too I was like so depressed, because, we moved here in November, we moved from New York. And, it’s weird. New York, we actually got to do stuff. Like we would walk around, there was stuff to do. We moved here and we were like inside, and then you go out in the snow and it was a little cold, you come back, and the only way we could go was if somebody come pick us up and take us somewhere, and nobody did that. So I was basically kind of depressed. Oh, I remember I used to listen to 92.9 [radio station] all the time. [Laughter]

INTERVIEWER: Jazz… and romantic songs [Laughter]

Shibira: Yea! Like, you know. But yea, I mean and as I start growing up I kind of like, you


know, I guess do stuff like, I joined the drama club again, and I ran track and stuff like that. Yea.

INTERVIEWER: So, what’s the most important part of your identity, like what are you most proud of?

Shibira: I don’t know. I guess I’m just proud of being a Trinidadian and the culture that comes with it. Because I don’t know how to explain it… it’s like, a lot of people, when I went to TSU, that’s the first time I’ve been around like just black people, so, it was like “woah, ok.” But then it was like different types of black people. So I’m like, “Ok.” But of course I was hanging out with the foreign people, Caribbean people. And so, like, we always had this thing in the gym, we always had all the organizations, I was in an organization called SOCA, Student of Caribbean Ancestors, and like we had like this thing against like, this is terrible, but, we had this thing against people that were in Africana Studies class. We were like they were like all over the place, they don’t know what they want to be. Sometimes they have their tie-dye and the big old Erykah Badu, and one time they have Bob Marley, and we’re like “They don’t know who they are!” So we just had this sense of pride like, “We know who we are.” They come to us and they’d be like, “You are black!” And we’re like “We are not black! That’s what you guys tell us we are.” We always had arguments. We’re like, we’re not black. And I’m like, I used to say, I’m Trinidadian, you know what that means? I’m mixed with everything, so I don’t know what I am. [Laugher]. I guess I’m proud that I, I don’t know, I like, I like being like, I look black and everything, but I feel like, I call myself a big melting pot. Because my grandmother is Spanish and Carib, then my grandmother on my mom’s side, she’s Portuguese and black, you know, then I have Indian family, I have Chinese family, and I’m like, “I love it!” I feel like I just have all these cultures, like [humming].

[43:13]

INTERVIEWER: So when you would have those discussions and things how did you, did you have to learn how to present yourself as sort of Trinidadian, or is that something that just came naturally and you did on your own?

Shibira: yea, it just came naturally. I mean, first of all, when I open my mouth to speak they’re like, “Oh, where are you from?” Because my accent comes out. And, I mean, sometimes I kind of like hide my accent according to who I’m talking to because sometimes people just like, “Oh, what are you saying?” Everything I do I do it, like, for example, I might be speaking to somebody that I don’t want, not that I don’t want them to know, but that I have to say some words properly, then I’ll put something in there that’s Trini so they’ll know that I’m not from. I remember in high school I was so… they would give us words to spell or whatever and like when I go to the word “Color” I’m like “Pppsshh” that’s not how you spell “color.” I’m going to do it the British way. So I put “c-o-l-o-U-r” in there and then the teacher would be like, “that’s not how you spell “color!” and I’d be like, “No! Color is c-o-l-o-U-r,” just so, I mean, I know I got all the other words right, but just that one so that I could have an argument with her so I could be like…

And then when I was in speech class, like the teacher, he gave me a D. I actually failed speech class in TSU because every time, like, it just irked me [laughter]. Maybe you shouldn’t use this


in records, they might think that I’m racist. It just irked me, because, like, he would say it’s “aaaaskin’” and I’m like it’s not “aaaskin’” it’s “awsking,” right, and he’s like “No. That is the British way.” And I’m like, where did American English come from? And he’s like, “No! You’re in an American Standard English class.” I’m like, but you’re pronouncing it wrong, that’s not how you pronounce it. So he gave me a big old D and stuff, I didn’t care. It’s just, whatever.

Me and my friends from the Caribbean, we have this way when we’re speaking, and people are like, “What are you saying? That’s not how you say, you know, that’s not how you say it.” We’d be like “We are speaking the Queen’s English” [laughter].

INTERVIEWER: So what are the situations, people that you’re with, that you try and hide your accent or try and play up your accent?

Shibira: Um, if I’m like in an interview, not this kind of interview.

INTERVIEWER: But for a job or something.

Shibira: Yea, you know, I’ll speak more Americanized. Or when I used to be in TV, so, I worked at WCTV, its an affiliate of PBS, of course, I can’t have my accent. I sound more American. And when I was at TSU I was in, you know TSU news, my teacher always told me, “No, no, you have to speak more American.” So in that case. But when we go to the, when I play up my Trini, when we go to the Caribbean club! [Laughter, claps.] I don’t anymore, because I’m married and have kids, but yea. Or, just walking around. My friends and I, we always speak in our, we call it Patois or whatever, but you know, so it’s like, “Yes, we’re from Trinidad, we’re from Bahamas.” We like, we had this thing where we’d start talking and be like, “where are you from?” “Bahamas!” “Trinidad!” “Guyana!” “Haiti!”

INTERVIEWER: Do you mostly hang around, like now, do you mostly hang around people that are from the Caribbean?

Shibira: No, it’s all mixed up.

INTERVIEWER: Did your mother or your grandmother ever talk to you about how they identified or how they identify now?

Shibira: Psshh. No, we don’t talk about that stuff. No.

INTERVIEWER: How do you think, so in America, how do you think other people saw you and would you try to communicate parts of your identity that weren’t necessarily obvious to random people in class or at Walmart or something?

Shibira: I guess I could give an example of like, you mean like when you have to explain like, “I’m from Trinidad,” or stuff like that?

INTERVIEWER: Mhmm. Like do you want people to know that you’re from Trinidad?


Shibira: yea. Because I love being from Trinidad. I want them to ask me questions. But not dumb questions, because sometimes it’s just, uhh. Like, I remember I had this one girl that told me, “Um.” I told her I was from Trinidad and she said, “Oh, Africa.” I’m like no, the Caribbean. And she’s like, “Oh, Jamaica.” I’m like No. Jamaica is not the only Caribbean island. And then she’s like, “But, you look black black and I’m like… Ok. And she’s like, “well, you know, black people are from Africa.” I’m like, oh my gosh. You’re in college. You have a computer. So I had to explain to her like no, well, you know, remember, slaves from Africa. You know, they went to the Caribbean also, you know. La-dee-da-dee-da.

INTERVIEWER: So how would you characterize the connection you feel to other West Indians?

Shibira: Every West Indian person I meet is like my sister or brother. Because, you know, we can just identify. It’s like, “hey!” and we talk about stuff that’s going on, or like, the thing we love talking about it questions people ask us and they just automatically think that you’re illegal, I don’t know why, or they ask dumb questions like “Did you see tigers walking in your yard?” Where do we have tigers in the tropics, like, you know? But we used to do stuff, crazy stuff, like yea, you know we used to eat barbeque giraffes. And then they think that if you’re from the Caribbean, I could be from Trinidad and she’s from Barbados, we knew each other before we got here? I’m like, “what?”

INTERVIEWER: So you can connect over some of the foolish that other people talk to you about?

Shibira: Mhmm. And food of course. And music.

INTERVIEWER: So you joined Students of Caribbean Ancestry at TSU? So were you, what made you want to join that group?

Shibira: Because it was Caribbean, it was the place where all the Caribbean people were going to gather and talk and plan stuff, you know, because I love doing stuff like that. It’s just fun.

INTERVIEWER: Was it mostly like a social thing or was it educational too at all?

Shibira: Educational? Well, I guess it was educational to other people when we held like little events and stuff. I mean, to me it was social. I mean we did stuff in the community, like we would have little, we’d go to the mission, I mean, we just did stuff. We had like little Caribbean days where we’d serve stuff in the courtyard. It was more social because it was fun.

INTERVIEWER: So you could be completely honest with this question. But do you think that white people changed how they thought of you if they found out that you’re from the West Indies?

Shibira: What do you mean change?

INTERVIEWER: Like, if they started talking to you before, if they knew you were from Trinidad.


Shibira: Uhh, not just white people. Because when we moved here we lived in Donelson, and then we moved to Gordonsville. That’s country. So, I don’t know. In Donelson, we only lived, there were no black people in the whole community. I mean, there might be somewhere over there, but they were cool. I guess they probably knew we were from the Caribbean, actually. I think there’s a difference between like real country white people and then white people that [inaudible]. Because, when we went to the country, it was like all these questions, like, first of all, they thought we were from, just America or whatever. And then when they found out it was just a whole new like “Ohh Trinidad! Yea!” Before it was just like “Yea, ok.” And then they were asking all these questions, [snores].

INTERVIEWER: So do you think they found you more interesting because of that?

Shibira: Yes. Yes. They did. Oh, and my mother had this incident where this white lady told her that, “She’s different from American blacks.”

INTERVIEWER: Really?

Shibira: Yea. She was like “you know, but you’re not black.” And my mother’s like, “oh, well, I am.” And the woman’s like “no, you’re not. Black is American black.”

INTERVIEWER: What context was that in?

Shibira: It wasn’t a bad context, it was like a context with like…

INTERVIEWER: Like were they at work or were they at…?

Shibira: Actually, it wasn’t my mother. I’m lying. It was my friend that was telling me that. She’s from Antigua. Like, she didn’t associate with American blacks. But she liked her, and she liked this African guy. She was friends with him. She would hug them and stuff. She would tell them, “You’re not black, you’re not American.”

INTERVIEWER: Do you, have you seen that African Americans have treated you differently after finding out that you’re from the West Indies?

Shibira: Mmm, let me see. I don’t have much American friends.

INTERVIEWER: Or even just casual people, if have a class with someone, or see someone in the store or something.

Shibira: I don’t know, I guess they’re just always more intrigued and interested, like “oh, you’re from Trinidad!” and they want to know more about it. Versus, I don’t know. The first thing they’re always like, “Can you cook?” Always.

INTERVIEWER: When, after you all moved here, did your parents convey to you any perceptions they had about other groups of people, particularly American blacks?


Shibira: [Laughter]. That was the weird thing. My mom would kind of hint not date any American blacks, but she was OK with whites.

INTERVIEWER: Oh really?

Shibira: Yea. I guess they just, American blacks, they’re just, [inaudible]. Oh yea, she did have a problem with Africans too. But now I’m married to one, she can’t do anything about it.

INTERVIEWER: Yea.

Shibira: But, yea, that was just it. They just have, I guess they just have this perception of kind of like, well not just blacks too, you know American people, like watch out for them. Yea. But then she just had a problem with like kind of telling us “Don’t bring home no American black people.” But when I went to TSU I saw that there were all kinds… because when they said it, it makes it look like, “Oh, American blacks, just like, oh, bad kind of.” But when I went to TSU there were all different kinds of American blacks, and I was just like, “what?”

INTERVIEWER: Because you said a little bit about the Africana studies people and the SOCA, were there any other fights or rude words exchanged between American blacks and West Indians?

Shibira: Well, it was never a rude word, it was just like, you know, they just tried to tell us, they tried to say that we’re ignorant because we don’t call ourselves black and stuff like that. You know, because they’re all like, “we’re going back to the motherland” kind of thing. And we’d be like, “well, we’re not Africans,” the Africans don’t even accept you like that. I wonder if that should be on the record… Africans might not want us to know that. But no, a lot of times, for real, they look at us, one of my friends told me, they look at us as we’re slaves, descendants of slaves, so, you know, but. And then they would try and tell us that we’re African. How can we be African, we’re not from Africa. We’d be like you can call yourself African-American if you want to, we used to tell them they don’t even accept you because you’re a descendent of a slave. [Laughter]. But, basically that was it. They just tried to make us believe, and we were like, no. That’s not how. Because we kind of, grew up more in the British system. Yep.

INTERVIEWER: Did you learn about the Civil Rights Movement, in high school in America?

Shibira: No. We didn’t have any American history.

INTERVIEWER: Well when you, did you go to high school here?

Shibira: Ok, yea. 11th grade, 12th grade. Yea but it wasn’t really interested. I mean I really didn’t take any interest in it because I was so in to, pssh, it’s all about Caribbean history, kind of thing. Until I kind of started going to TSU. But they still couldn’t get me to wake up in the morning to go march for the Martin Luther King Day. I was like “No, I’m not getting up.

But I did take a little more interest, like, actually, I can truly say I decided one day I was going to


take an Africana studies class, it was like my senior year and I had nothing else better to do, so I was like, “Let me see what this is all about.” And I actually became interested, but, I mean I didn’t’ act like those kids that, you know, but I was interested because it was more like trying to find your culture, like where your ancestors are from kind of thing, and stuff like that. So it was actually interesting.

INTERVIEWER: So when you first started learning about Jim Crow Laws, segregation, the Civil Rights Movement and stuff, and thinking about living in Nashville, did that, do you remember feeling a particular way?

Shibira: No.

INTERVIEWER: Didn’t really influence you at all?

Shibira: No, it didn’t. The only thing I used to think about was like wow, Trinidad is not like this. I mean we have our stuff between Indians and stuff, but it was never like “You drink from this side, they drink from that side,” That’s why I tell people, we’re a happy people. WE have our conflicts, it’s always going to be. But we never had like “You stay over here, this is only for Indians, this is only for blacks.” And I always say I’m glad I didn’t grow up like that, because I don’t know if I’d be able to handle all that.

INTERVIEWER: Yea. So do you have any memories of being in places that were like all homogenous, like everyone of one type of people all together when you were younger in Trinidad ever or in Nashville at any point?

Shibira: yea, when we go to African street fest, well not African street fest but like. Like everybody together? Yea. We used to have International Day at TSU, so that was everybody there. Every person. Because I used to be in the international group too, so like, every would make food and stuff like that, and every one would eat together. Because we always planned stuff together.

INTERVIEWER: So can you tell me about any experiences you had where either you felt discriminated against for any reason or you witnessed or heard about a friend or family member being discriminated against for any reason?

Shibira: Well, I remember in Gordonsville. I don’t know if he meant it like that, but whenever I go to the store, like, I mean, he would hand. There was this guy at the gas station, he would hand people their money. But when I put my hands out he put it down on the desk like that. And I’m like, “ok… is this discrimination? Alright then.” I just took it and I kind of left. Yea. Kind of felt discriminated.

INTERVIEWER: Is that something that you’d tell your mom about or anything?

Shibira: No. She’s just gonna be like, if I told my mom she’d be like, “Yea, I told you.”

INTERVIEWER: So that’s something that she expected moving here?


Shibira: yea. Yea. Because I think she kind of like experienced but she never really told us. But she always said that you know, she.

INTERVIEWER: So how would you describe the degree to which you feel, you expect to be discriminated against in the future?

Shibira: I mean, in what, like?

INTERVIEWER: Like, do you expect to have similar experiences from the past, or do you expect that moving forward things will be pretty…

Shibira: I mean I think there’s always going to be people somewhere, I mean, even your own blacks discriminate against you. You know, like, they say stupid stuff like, “Why don’t you move back to your country?” You know, just stuff, that’s discrimination too, you know? So. Yea. There’s always going to be people in this world to discriminate against us. We’ve just got to ignore them and be like I’m proud to be Trinidadian.

INTERVIEWER: So do you remember the English-Only ordinance they tried to pass in Nashville in 2008?

Shibira: No. Did they?

INTERVIEWER: Oh, ok. In 2008, in Nashville, they tried to pass an ordinance that said that you’re only allowed to speak English in the city.

Shibira: Really?

INTERVIEWER: But it didn’t pass.

Shibira: What! I did not hear about that. I was too busy partying, that’s what it was. [Laughter].

INTERVIEWER: But even hearing that now, does that change how you think people in Nashville felt about immigrants that they tried to pass this?

Shibira: No!

INTERVIEWER: You already knew that people felt that way?

Shibira: Yea! I’m from the country.

INTERVIEWER: So, geographically, where would you say you feel most at home?

Shibira: Trinidad.

INTERVIEWER: When do you think you’ll get to go back there?


Shibira: I’m trying to go this summer. Yea.

INTERVIEWER: You ever think you want to move back?

Shibira: Well, I did. But now that I’m married to my husband from Kenya, he does not want to move there. He says he wants to move back to Kenya. So, I don’t mind.

INTERVIEWER: Have you ever been to Kenya?

Shibira: No. [Laughs].

INTERVIEWER: But you’re open to try it?

Shibira: I’m open! I mean, we are going to go visit before we go but I don’t feel like Kenya’s going to be that far off from Trinidad. It won’t be a big difference. The only difference is going to be they have more blacks, more Africans. Trinidad doesn’t really have Africans like that.

INTERVIEWER: So, in, when you moved to America, what were your dreams for the future?

Shibira: To be a zoologist! I love animals. I used to sit out there, I used to have my ecology books, and stuff, and I’d be watching the birds. My dream was to probably work with National Geographic, be somewhere out in the jungle, wherever the rainforest is, just me alone, you know, looking at the animals monitoring the animals, stuff like that. But no. That all went down the drain.

INTERVIEWER: Because did your family have different dreams for you?

Shibira: Yes, my mother told me black people don’t do that kind of stuff.

INTERVIEWER: And so she wanted you to major in Mass Communications at TSU.

Shibira: Yes, because that’s what I always did. I was in drama and singing and stuff. But that’s not what I wanted to do.

INTERVIEWER: So when did you graduate?

Shibira: ’05.

INTERVIEWER: And you majored in Mass Communications.

Shibira: Mhmm. Speech and Theater.

INTERVIEWER: Ok. And it was basically your moms pushed you to go there?

Shibira: Yep. And I didn’t know about changing your major, or you could, because I wanted to


go to Florida A & M, because I saw it was there, and, I didn’t know about all that. And when I did find out about it, because I had a friend that was transferring and she told me about that I was like, “wow.” Because I was a Junior, and then after I looked in to it and I’d be losing credits and stuff, and ooohhh it’d be a big deal if I didn’t graduate on time, so my dream kind of washed down. And then after that you know it just felt like I’d have to go to school all over again, just didn’t want to do that.

INTERVIEWER: What do you work now?

Shibira: Mm sorta kinda. I’m a stay at home mom.

INTERVIEWER: That’s a job!

Shibira: [Laughter] Yea. I’m a consultant for Doterra, and right now I’m in my medical missionary class. So I mean, I do help people with the little stuff that’s going on. I tell people like “Oh, why don’t you blend up some garlic,onions, a little bit of honey, kick it right out.” That’s the kind of stuff. It’s a job! I don’t get paid, but it’s a job.

INTERVIEWER: So what in your mind are the two things you’ve done in your life that you’re most proud of?

Shibira: Hmm. Getting married to my husband. Because I wasn’t wanted to make sure I married a foreign man. And I didn’t listen to my mom about marrying Africans. And, what else am I proud of? I guess, um, doing stuff that I like, even if it’s not zoology. I never thought that I’d be homeschooling.

INTERVIEWER: Oh, you’re home schooling your kids? Wow.

Shibira: And like I always liked, I always had this thing like for some reason, like, something will be going on with somebody or with me, and like I just know exactly what to put on it. Like, I mean, like, it would be a rash and I’d just put some aloe on there and nobody told me I was supposed to use aloe plant, and so like, as far as the medical missionary stuff, I’m proud that I’m doing that and I’m learning more and stuff. So doing stuff that I enjoy, not just…

INTERVIEWER: Great! Well is there any other information that you want to include that we have not yet touched upon, anything else you want to me or the tape recorder to know?

Shibira: Nope. Do you have any other questions?

INTERVIEWER: That’s all.

Shibira: This was fun.

INTERVIEWER: Well thank you again for participating, please feel free to contact me if you have questions or you think of a story that you want to add or anything else that you want to tell me about and I’d be happy to add it to the transcript.


Shibira: Yep, and you can call me too if you need anything else.

INTERVIEWER: Great.

[End of Audio]

Duration: 68:24 Minutes

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