Case: 2:15-cv-01802-MHW-NMK Doc #: 109-1 Filed: 12/22/15 ... · case: 2:15-cv-01802-mhw-nmk doc #: 109-1 filed: 12/22/15 page: 1 of 2 pageid #: 5675. ... 16 5 columbus dispatch article

Case: 2:15-cv-01802-MHW-NMK Doc #: 109-1 Filed: 12/22/15 Page: 1 of 2 PAGEID #: 5675




Matthew Damschroder

Armstrong & Okey, Inc., Columbus, Ohio (614) 224-9481

1 (Pages 1 to 4)

Page 1

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF OHIO EASTERN DIVISION - - -THE OHIO DEMOCRATIC PARTY, : : PLAINTIFF, : : VS. : CASE NO. 2-15-CV-1802 : JUDGE WATSONJON HUSTED, ET AL., : MAGISTRATE JUDGE KING : DEFENDANTS. : - - - Deposition of MATTHEW DAMSCHRODER, a Witnessherein, called by the Plaintiff for Examination underthe applicable Rules of Civil Procedure, taken beforeDiane L. Schad, a Professional Reporter and NotaryPublic in and for the State of Ohio, pursuant tonotice, at the State Office Tower, 30 East BroadStreet, Room 452, Columbus, Ohio 43215, commencingon Tuesday, October 20, 2015, at 9:08 a.m. - - - ARMSTRONG & OKEY, INC. 222 East Town Street, Second Floor Columbus, Ohio 43215-4620 (614) 224-9481 – (800) 223-9481 Fax – (614) 224-5724 - - -

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1 - - -2 DEPOSITION OF MATTHEW DAMSCHRODER3 APPEARANCE4 - - -5 JOSHUA L KAUL, ESQUIRE

PERKINS, COIE, LLP6 1 East Main Street, Suite 201

Madison, Wisconsin 537037 (608) 294 4007

jkaul@perkinscoie com8 and

CERIDWEN CHERRY, ESQUIRE9 PERKINS, COIE, LLP

700 13th Street NW, Suite 60010 Washington, DC 20005

(202) 654-620011 and

J COREY COLUMBO, ESQUIRE12 MCTIGUE, MCGINNIS & COLOMBO, LLC

545 East Town Street13 Columbus, Ohio 43215-4801

(614) 263-700014 ccolombo@electionlawgroup com15 On behalf of the Plaintiff16 MIKE DeWINE

OHIO ATTORNEY GENERAL17 BY: STEVEN G VOIGT

SENIOR ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL18 BY: RYAN L RICHARDSON

ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL19 CONSTITUTIONAL OFFICES

30 East Broad Street20 Columbus, Ohio 43215

(614) 466-287221 Steven Voigt@OhioAttorneyGeneral gov

Ryan Richardson@OhioAttorneyGeneral gov2223 On behalf of the Defendants24 - - -

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1 Tuesday Morning Session2 October 20, 20153 9:08 a.m.4 - - -5 STIPULATIONS6 It is stipulated by and among counsel7 for the respective parties that the deposition of8 MATTHEW DAMSCHRODER, a Witness herein, called by the9 Plaintiff under the applicable Rules of Civil

10 Procedure, may be taken at this time in stenotype by11 the Notary; that said deposition may thereafter be12 transcribed by the Notary out of the presence of the13 witness; that proof of the official character and14 qualification of the Notary is waived; that the witness15 may sign the transcript of his deposition before a16 Notary other than the Notary taking his deposition;17 said deposition to have the same force and effect as18 though signed before the Notary taking it.19 - - -20

21

22

23

24

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1 DEPOSITION OF MATTHEW DAMSCHRODER2 INDEX TO WITNESS3 - - -4 MATTHEW DAMSCHRODER PAGE5 EXAMINATION BY MR. KAUL 56 - - -7 INDEX TO EXHIBITS8 EXHIBIT DESCRIPTION PAGE9 1 2012 POST-GENERAL ELECTIONS 57

STATEWIDE VOTER FRAUD REPORT1011 2 TRANSCRIPT OF THE PRESIDENTIAL 68

COMMISSION ON ELECTION ADMINISTRATION1213 3 DIRECTIVE 2014-15 7014 4 STRING OF EMAILS AMONG MEMBERS 115

OF THE SECRETARY OF STATE'S OFFICE1516 5 COLUMBUS DISPATCH ARTICLE 12117 6 STRING OF EMAILS AMONG MEMBERS 127

OF THE SECRETARY OF STATE'S OFFICE1819 7 STRING OF EMAILS AMONG MEMBERS 131

OF THE SECRETARY OF STATE'S OFFICE2021 8 STRING OF EMAILS AMONG MEMBERS 135

OF THE SECRETARY OF STATE'S OFFICE22 - - -2324

The Ohio Democratic Party, et al., v. Jon Husted, et al. Case No. 2:15-cv-1802

Defendants' Written Objections to the Admissibility of Plaintiffs' Evidence

Exhibit C


Matthew Damschroder


2 (Pages 5 to 8)

Page 5

1 - - -2 MR. VOIGT: In terms of the objections do you3 want to have a stipulation that objections are4 preserved for trial except to the form of the question?5 MR. KAUL: Yeah, we're fine with that.6 MR. VOIGT: Okay.7 - - -8 MATTHEW DAMSCHRODER9 being first duly sworn, as hereinafter certified,

10 deposes and says as follows:11 EXAMINATION12 BY MR. KAUL:13 Q All right. Mr. Damschroder, would you14 please state and spell your name.15 A Sure. It's Matthew Damschroder,16 D-A-M-S-C-H-R-O-D-E-R.17 Q And how are you currently employed?18 A I'm employed with the Secretary of State's19 Office.20 Q And how long have you been employed with the21 Secretary of State?22 A I've been with the Secretary of State since23 January of 2011.24 Q And where were you employed before that?

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1 A With the Franklin County Board of Elections.2 Q And how long did you work for the Franklin3 County Board of Elections?4 A I started there I think it was June of 20035 until I left to come to the Secretary of State's6 Office.7 Q And what's your position currently at the8 Secretary of State's Office?9 A I'm Assistant Secretary of State and Chief of

10 Staff.11 Q And have you had that position since you've12 been at the office?13 A I was Deputy Assistant Secretary of State and14 Director Of Elections from January of 2011 through15 January of this year. So I've been Assistant Secretary16 of State and Chief of Staff since January of this year17 but kind of Director of Elections as well.18 Q Well, let me sort of go over the ground rules19 for the deposition before we get into any detail.20 First, you understand that this is what's21 known as a 30(b)(6) deposition; is that right?22 A I understand that part, but to the extent you23 can give me any more information I would appreciate it.24 Q Okay. So you understand that in a 30(b)(6)

Page 7

1 deposition you're testifying not in your personal2 capacity but as a representative, in this case, of the3 Secretary of State's Office?4 A Okay.5 Q And do you also understand that your answers6 are answers on behalf of that office not on behalf of7 yourself?8 A Yes.9 Q Okay. And so if I ask you questions about

10 your knowledge or your position in the context of this11 deposition, I'm not referring to your personal12 knowledge or your personal position but rather to the13 office's knowledge or position.14 A Okay.15 Q So basic ground rules for the deposition16 which I'll go over.17 As you can see, this is being transcribed, so18 to make the court reporter's life easier it's helpful19 if you can make a point of answering verbally and20 saying yes or no rather than uh-huh or huh-uh. Does21 that make sense?22 A Yes, it does.23 Q Also to make life easier for the transcript,24 and you're doing a good job of this, if you can wait

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1 until I'm finished asking a question before you start2 answering it. And I will try to do the same with your3 answers. That helps keep the transcript clear. Okay?4 A Okay.5 Q If I ask you any question and you don't6 understand it, please just ask me to clarify. I'm7 happy to do that. But if you do answer a question,8 I'll assume that you do understand it. Is that fair?9 A Okay.

10 Q All right. Let me move into the structure of11 the elections system in Ohio.12 I guess, first, can you tell me how your13 office is structured from an organizational standpoint.14 A The Secretary of State is elected every four15 years and serves as the chief election official of the16 State of Ohio. The Secretary of State's Office also17 has other functions, including business filings and18 those types of administrative tasks, but the elections19 component is certainly the most public aspect of what20 the Secretary of State's Office does.21 Q All right. And on the organizational chart22 who's below the Secretary of State?23 A On our organizational chart the Assistant24 Secretary of State, Chief of Staff, me, reports



Exhibit C


Matthew Damschroder


3 (Pages 9 to 12)

Page 9

1 directly to the Secretary.2 Q So you're the number two person in the3 office?4 A Correct.5 Q And then do you have staff that's directly6 below you in the reporting structure?7 A Yes. I have a deputy chief of staff who also8 works with legislation and helps me coordinate things9 like IT and other administrative functions of the

10 office. We have a finance director, general counsel,11 business services manager, and then I also supervise12 the Elections Division.13 Q Okay. And who are the people in those14 positions?15 A Jack Christopher is our general counsel.16 Craig Forbes is our deputy chief of staff.17 Veronica Sherman is our finance director.18 Ray Copeland is our IT director.19 Allison DeSantis is our business services20 director.21 And then in elections Pat Wolfe is our22 elections administrator.23 Laura Pietenpol is our elections deputy24 administrator.

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1 Carrie Kuruc, K-U-R-U-C, is our senior2 elections counsel.3 And then Brandi Seskes is our deputy4 elections administrator and the elections counsel.5 Q And do you have a communications staff also?6 A We do.7 Q And who's in charge of that?8 A Matt McClellan is our director of9 communications.

10 Q And I apologize if I mispronounce this, but11 Halle Pelger is a former employee; is that right?12 A Halle Pelger is our former Assistant13 Secretary of State and Chief of Staff.14 Q So you've taken her position?15 A Yes.16 Q How large is your office overall?17 A I think we have 150 employees total.18 Q And can you explain what the relationship is19 between the Secretary of State's Office and the county20 Boards of Elections.21 A So the county Boards of Elections there's one22 board for each county, two Republicans and two23 Democrats. The board members are recommended for24 appointment by their respective county political

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1 party's executive committee; then the Secretary of2 State makes the appointment to the Board of Elections.3 They serve generally staggered four-year4 terms in R and D and then the other R and D for the5 next four-year term.6 Their terms begin generally in March. I say7 generally because they were changing up the process so8 they started being appointed. Their terms start in the9 future in odd number years because there was kind of an

10 issue with boards being appointed right before a11 presidential primary and so the law has changed to have12 them start in odd number years now.13 So the Board of Elections hire a director and14 many boards hire a deputy director, and they are15 responsible for the local administration of elections.16 Q Okay. So all the current members of the17 county Boards of Elections were appointed by the18 Secretary of State; is that right?19 A Yes.20 Q And how do those Boards of Elections interact21 with their full-time staff?22 A The boards appoint a director and again23 sometimes a deputy director. The statute gives the24 Boards of Elections the authority to hire clerks of the

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1 board. Some hire part-time employees. The board then2 also appoints the precinct election officials on3 Election Day.4 I don't know what more --5 Q When you say clerks, are those the directors6 and deputy directors or is that somebody else?7 A So like, for example, in Franklin County8 there is a -- when I was there, there was a director9 and a deputy director and we had 42 full-time employees

10 and then the closer we got to an election we hired --11 and those are statutorily called clerks -- and we would12 hire as many as 100 additional part-time employees to13 work on a seasonal basis 4,000 precinct election14 officials for Election Day.15 Q Okay. And how are the directors and deputy16 director or clerks selected?17 MR. VOIGT: I'm just going to put a standing18 objection to this entire line of questioning because19 it's outside of the scope of the 30(b)(6). With that20 said, I'll give you leeway to continue with this line21 of questioning, but I don't see it in your topics.22 MR. KAUL: Okay. I allowed it because this23 goes to intent and knowledge and that sort of thing.24 But, anyway, as long as it's a standing objection?



Exhibit C


Matthew Damschroder


4 (Pages 13 to 16)

Page 13

1 MR. VOIGT: It's a standing objection, and I2 just don't want to object every time.3 MR. KAUL: Understood.4 Go ahead.5 A Would you mind repeating the question.6 Q Yeah. How are the directors and deputy7 directors selected?8 A So at the reorganizational meeting of the9 Board of Elections when the new set of terms begin the

10 board has to elect a -- select a director, and the11 director has to have political party affiliation to be12 a qualified electorate of the county.13 The board may have -- that person has to be14 nominated by the same party to which that person15 belongs and has to receive three votes. The board may16 then select a deputy director who has to be the17 opposite political party of the director. Again, three18 votes to select the person. And then after those two19 staff positions are selected, the board then selects20 among itself a member of service chairman has to be the21 opposite political party of the director of the Board22 of Elections.23 Beyond that there are no partisan affiliation24 requirements for the full-time clerks of the board who

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1 are not the director or deputy director. But most2 boards have historically operated such that there are3 equal numbers of Republicans and Democrats on the staff4 at the board.5 Some boards require that the clerks, the6 full-time employees, be qualified electors of the7 county while others have the person to be a qualified8 elector of the state.9 Q And does the Secretary have the authority to

10 remove members of the county Board of Elections?11 A Yes, in particular circumstances.12 Q All right. And what are those?13 A I can't remember all of the particulars of14 the statute, but it's nonfeasance, misfeasance,15 malfeasance. Those kinds of things.16 Q Okay. And is the Secretary able to remove17 directors and deputy directors or is that done by the18 county boards?19 A My recollection is that the Secretary has the20 authority to remove the director and deputy director as21 well for similar reasons, and that's all prescribed in22 state law.23 Q And does your office keep any statistics on24 the racial diversity of the members of the county

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1 Boards of Elections?2 A No.3 Q Do you know what the racial diversity of4 those individuals is?5 A I guess I don't know exactly what you're6 asking.7 Q Do you know what percent of county Board of8 Elections members, for example, are African-American?9 MR. VOIGT: Objection to the extent you're

10 calling for him to speculate.11 A I don't know.12 Q And is it fair to say you also don't know13 what percentage is Latino?14 A Like I said, we don't keep those statistics15 so I don't know.16 Q Okay. And in the senior staff -- well, first17 of all, when you were describing the staff of the18 Secretary of State's Office before is it fair to say19 that the people you described that's reporting directly20 to you is it fair to call them senior staff?21 A I would say that's fair.22 Q Or is there a term that you prefer to use?23 A We use "senior staff" broadly so that24 would be --

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1 Q And are you aware of the percent of the2 senior staff in your office that's African-American?3 A We have two African-American directors.4 Ray Copeland our IT director, and Vincent Williams our5 HR director.6 Q And how about Latino?7 A That I don't know.8 Q By that do you mean you don't know if anybody9 is Latino?

10 A Correct.11 Q And what about in the Elections Division?12 A In the Elections Division there are three13 African-Americans.14 Q How large is the Elections Division?15 A I think there's 12 employees in Elections.16 Q And do you know if there are any Latinos?17 A I don't believe so.18 Q I want to switch topics and ask you about,19 first of all, the 2004 election in Ohio. Actually,20 before I do that let me ask you, does your office have21 a way to track the wait times that people have to vote22 in Ohio?23 A Our office does not track the wait times.24 There's two things that we've looked at in the past



Exhibit C


Matthew Damschroder


5 (Pages 17 to 20)

Page 17

1 under the settlement agreement with the League of Women2 Voters. Then Secretary Brunner I think was required to3 establish a wait time policy and my recollection is4 that her conclusion was that it was not possible to set5 unform statewide expectations for wait times. And then6 there's the post-election data gathered by various7 organizations that reports after the elections what8 wait times seem to be both in Ohio and other states.9 Q Okay. First, so Secretary Brunner set up

10 policy or did she find that new policy could be set?11 A My recollection is that she said she found12 that no policy could be set.13 Q Is that the current administration's position14 as well?15 A Our position is that Boards of Elections need16 to allocate the necessary resources so that voters17 don't have an inordinate wait time to vote. And that18 even though the settlement agreement -- I guess it was19 maybe a -- with the League of Women Voters has expired,20 but we continue to require Boards of Elections to have21 the backup paper ballots that were called for in that22 settlement agreement for use by voters on Election Day23 in the event that there are long lines or machine24 breakdowns.

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1 Q And in the event there are long lines how are2 the paper ballots to be deployed?3 A Our instructions and I think also the4 settlement agreement required Boards of Elections to5 determine that.6 My recollection is that in the directives7 that we've issued on that that would require the boards8 to establish a local wait time.9 I think most boards my recollection is that

10 they generally have like a 30-minute time frame and11 then the poll workers are required to announce that12 there's a paper ballot option for folks who want to --13 who want to use that option.14 I think all of the anecdotal information that15 we've heard over the years is that at least in Ohio the16 queues are generally at the signature pollbook portion17 of the process as opposed to the voting machine18 process, which is why the Secretary of State worked19 closely with the General Assembly to appropriate state20 funds to assist Boards of Elections with purchasing the21 electronic pollbooks because the data from at least22 counties in Ohio that have electronic pollbook is that23 they can cut the voter check-in process by about half24 to speed up that process. So that should help as well.

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1 Q And let me, I guess, make a point of breaking2 this into wait times for early voting. And by early3 voting I mean early in-person voting and Election Day.4 So first when you refer to anecdotal5 information about the cause of wait times are you6 talking about both Election Day and early voting?7 A I would say that's more about Election Day.8 Q And have you heard about lines -- anecdotally9 have you heard about lines caused by DRE machine wait

10 times also?11 A I've not heard of lines caused by DREs12 specifically.13 Q And when you say that the lines are the14 check-in stations; is that right?15 A Yes.16 Q Do you know whether that's because of the17 time being spent at the check-in station or rather18 voters waiting to check in while others are casting19 their ballots?20 A My understanding anecdotally is that it's21 voters waiting to check in at the signature pollbook.22 Q And do you recall who provided you that23 information?24 A My recollection is that the Montgomery County

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1 Board of Elections did a really good study a number of2 years ago when they first started using electronic3 pollbooks, and I think that's where the data comes from4 about the check-in time being cut in at least half when5 they use an electronic pollbook.6 Q Is that based on any data from any other7 counties or just Montgomery County?8 A I would say Montgomery County and in my9 experience Franklin County.

10 Q All right. And you said that was Election11 Day, correct?12 A Correct.13 Q And what about early voting lines?14 A I think it's not as well documented from the15 standpoint that even a county that uses DREs on16 Election Day may not necessarily use DREs for in-person17 absentee voting.18 I think my personal experience from Franklin19 County voting in-person absentee is that what when I've20 done it in the past there were more than enough21 machines available for the voting experience and check22 in with relative ease.23 Q I guess my question was to the extent they24 are lines what are the source of the lines in early



Exhibit C


Matthew Damschroder


6 (Pages 21 to 24)

Page 21

1 voting?2 A I don't think we know from our office's3 standpoint.4 Q All right. And you mentioned before that5 your office's policy is that counties should6 allocate -- I'm paraphrasing -- but they should7 allocate resources to avoid inordinate wait times. Is8 that --9 A Yeah.

10 Q What do you consider to be inordinate wait11 times?12 A Well, I think the official office's position13 from the Brunner Report is that there's not a way to14 have a uniform statewide. But I think a lot of people15 in the elections administration field look to the16 Presidential Commission's Report that says 30 minutes17 should be the target max.18 Q And is that both for Election Day and early19 voting?20 A I don't recall whether the PCEA, Presidential21 Commission on Election Administration, differentiated.22 Q What about the Secretary of State Office's23 view?24 A Again, I don't think we -- I don't think

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1 we've looked at that before.2 Q Okay. So you said a lot of administrators3 look to the PCEA'S recommendation. Does that include4 your office?5 A Like I said, I don't think our office has --6 you know, since the Brunner Report said it's hard to7 set a statewide number, I don't think we've -- our8 office has not given guidance to boards on what is the9 target wait time other than we have said, you know,

10 minimum allocation of two per precinct except for in11 presidential elections which would be three. For DREs12 the board should take note of the things that are on13 the ballot on election to gauge turnout and prepare14 appropriately. Our office has not established a target15 maximum wait time for the state.16 Q OKAY. And so do you agree with the position17 of the Brunner Administration that it's not possible to18 set a uniform standard for expected wait time?19 A I think because the allocation decisions are20 made locally by the Boards of Elections that it has to21 be done in a public meeting of the board. That's best22 handled by the Board of Elections. But I think the23 PCEA recommendations are good recommendations in terms24 of wait times.

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1 Q Okay. So I want to make sure I'm summarizing2 accurately so please tell me if this incorrect. Your3 office does not have a formal position on what the wait4 times should be but you do believe that the PCEA5 recommendations are good recommendations; is that fair?6 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Mischaracterizes his7 testimony.8 Q You can answer.9 A So our office hasn't taken a formal position.

10 Allocation decisions need to be made locally by the11 board in a public meeting based on what's on the ballot12 locally and that the PCEA recommendations seems like13 reasonable recommendations for boards to target.14 Q You mentioned a resource allocation being set15 up at the county level. Does your office provide any16 financial resources to county Boards of Elections?17 A The state law requires that the County18 Commissioners appropriate all of the -- provide for all19 of the necessary and proper expenses of the Boards of20 Elections out of the county general fund, and the only21 addition to that is that state law requires the22 Secretary of State to assist counties with a little bit23 of funding for poll worker training, which our office24 does.

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1 In certain instances like a special2 Congressional election to fill a vacancy, state law3 requires that the costs of that election be borne by4 the state. So if that were to happen, we would go to5 the General Assembly for an appropriation to reimburse6 the county for those expenses. But overall the vast7 majority of all the expenses of Boards of Elections are8 paid for out of that county's general fund.9 Q Have you had circumstances in which you've

10 been concerned that the appropriation for a particular11 county's election mechanics was too low?12 A I don't think the Secretary of State's Office13 has taken a position on individual county14 appropriations. I think what we have done is to in15 targeted circumstances issue directives that instruct16 the Boards of Elections to do certain things and then17 the boards can go to their commissioners to document18 that this is instruction from the state to do and19 therefore they have to have an appropriation.20 For instance, in 2012 we issued a directive21 requiring all county Boards of Elections to train all22 of their poll workers for the presidential general23 election. State law has a minimum that's less than24 every election so we required everyone to do it for



Exhibit C


Matthew Damschroder


7 (Pages 25 to 28)

Page 25

1 that election.2 So I think in certain instances the boards3 then used that directive to go to the commissioners to4 get supplemental appropriations.5 Q Just to go back a step.6 You mentioned that the Brunner Report had7 concluded that uniform a wait time standard couldn't be8 set statewide and you mentioned one of the reasons for9 that being that allocation decisions are made at the

10 county level. Are there other reasons that you believe11 that a uniform state standard can't be set for wait12 times?13 A I don't know what other factors the Brunner14 Administration came to in coming to that conclusion, so15 I don't know what all they looked at.16 Q And does policy set by the Brunner17 Administration remain in effect under your18 administration unless repealed?19 A Generally, yes.20 Q Okay. So is that report that you referred to21 by the Brunner Administration is that still the formal22 policy of the Secretary of State's Office?23 A I wouldn't -- I don't know that I would24 characterize it as a policy. It was a report that was

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1 required to be -- a study that was required to be2 conducted and a report that was required to be issued3 by the terms of the settlement agreement. And so I4 think it was at that moment in time the, you know,5 conclusion based on that review.6 A review was not required to be conducted and7 hasn't been conducted since, so I don't know.8 Q Has the Husted Administration reviewed that9 report?

10 A I think we looked at it at the beginning of11 the administration when we were going back over various12 things that were related to the terms of the settlement13 agreement to determine if there was anything14 outstanding that we needed to still do.15 Q And in that review and in the course of that16 review did you find any points of disagreement?17 A Not that I recall.18 Q You mentioned training before. Let me19 follow-up a little bit on that.20 What's the standard training process before a21 presidential election?22 A So as I mentioned, the Secretary of State's23 Office issued a directive in the summer of 201224 requiring all Boards of Elections to train all of its

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1 precinct election officials prior to the 2012 general2 election. A simular directive was issued before the3 2014 general election. And I would fully expect for4 another directive along those lines would be issued in5 preparation for the 2016 general election.6 Our office provides a number of resources.7 Boards of Elections are the ones or the entities8 statutorily required to train the poll workers precinct9 officials.

10 Our office provided three resources to assist11 in that process.12 We have a statewide precinct election13 official training manual that some boards use exactly14 as it stands and then provide a local supplement for15 local procedures. For instance, use the blue tag for16 this function, the green tag for another function. Or17 other boards use our content and then just kind of18 interweave it with their own content. So that becomes19 kind of a -- kind of baseline training materials.20 Our office also provides a quick reference21 guide or flip chart for precinct election officials to22 use at the polling place on Election Day.23 And then we also have an online poll worker24 training module where poll workers can go in addition

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1 to their local training class the website and kind of2 do a number of questions that reflect the material in3 the Secretary of State's training materials.4 It's also open to the public. If any person5 who's not a poll worker wants to take the training6 class they're welcome to do so.7 Q Do you have a lot of people take you up on8 that?9 A Not as many as I would like but usually find

10 the activity ticking up in a presidential election is11 mostly for the attorneys who are working as challenges12 or when they're observers on each side of the aisle and13 refresh themselves.14 Q And is there a set number of hours of15 training that's required?16 A There is not a statutory minimum number of17 hours. I think we focus more on content than the time.18 Q And you said that many of the counties use19 your content or package it with their own content. The20 content you're referring is that the statewide training21 manual?22 A Yes.23 Q And are you aware of the provisions of Ohio24 law and the Secretary's directives that are at issue in



Exhibit C


Matthew Damschroder


8 (Pages 29 to 32)

Page 29

1 this case?2 A At a high level, yes.3 Q To the extent you have questions about that,4 I'm happy to come back to it. But my general question5 is, is there any training being conducted that relates6 directly to those policies that are at issue?7 A It would probably be easier to do them one at8 a time,if you don't mind.9 Q That makes sense.

10 MR. VOIGT: To the extent you're calling for11 a legal conclusion for him to legally interpret your12 claims, I object.13 MR. KAUL: Fair. I won't ask him to do that.14 Q Let me first ask you about the manner in15 which provisional ballots and absenteeism ballots are16 counted. Who makes the determination as to whether17 those count?18 A The members of the bipartisan Boards of19 Elections.20 Q And are they provided any training on the21 policies that relate to those, the counting of those22 ballots?23 A So whenever there's a change in the law or24 court decision we provide instructions to the Boards of

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1 Elections in the form of directives or advisories, and2 then we also regularly conduct webinars for board3 members to participate in, and then also include that4 content at the Secretary of State's summer conference.5 And the Ohio Association of Elections Officials, OAEO,6 holds an annual winter conference that they often7 provide content, invite us to provide content.8 And so, generally speaking, before every9 federal, regular federal general election we do at

10 least a webinar or a conference topic on items such as11 absentee and provisional voting.12 Q Are the webinars publicly available?13 A I believe that they are.14 Q And where would those be available?15 A On our website.16 Q Now, you mentioned that the decision is made17 by the bipartisan county Boards of Elections on whether18 to count those absentee and provisional ballots. What19 happens in the event of a two to two tie vote?20 A It depends on what the tie was on. So, for21 instance, in most cases the Secretary of State breaks a22 tie when the board has a matter of disagreement. But23 there are certain instances in state law where the law24 says that the Secretary of State can't break a tie,

Page 31

1 that the board has to come to three votes, for2 instance, in selecting.3 So an example would be determining voter4 intent on an individual optical scan ballot. That has5 to be three votes of the board. On counting6 provisional ballots my recollection is that has to be7 three votes of the board. So there would be examples8 like that that would not come to the Secretary.9 Q Okay. And when you say the Secretary breaks

10 the tie, were you speaking generally or just with11 respect to the counting of absentee or provisional12 ballots?13 A I was speaking generally.14 Q Okay. So most issues are decided by the15 county board and if there's a two-to-two tie the16 Secretary of State breaks the tie; is that right?17 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form.18 Mischaracterizes his testimony.19 A Would you reask your question. Sorry.20 Q Is it fair to say in most cases if there's a21 two-to-two tie among the members of the county board in22 a vote the Secretary of State is the person authorized23 to break that tie?24 A So I would say that state law says whenever

Page 32

1 there is a tie vote, the board has to submit it to the2 Secretary of State to make a decision except in3 circumstances that are particularly carved out by state4 law where the Secretary of State is not allowed to5 break the tie. An example of that would be voter6 intent on an individual ballot or counting or rejecting7 a provisional ballot envelope.8 Q So going back to wait times. First let me9 ask you about 2004.

10 Is it your office's understanding that in11 2004 a number of precincts had wait times that were12 multiple hours long?13 A Yes. And I think the office was also sued on14 election night over that.15 Q And do you know what the longest wait times16 were on Election Day in 2004?17 MR. VOIGT: I'm going to place an objection18 because you're asking for questions related to a prior19 Secretary of State's term in office and this20 30(b)(6) relates to Secretary Husted's time in office.21 So I guess to the extent that he knows what happened in22 the prior administration I guess the questions are23 acceptable, but these are not -- I just want to clarify24 that Secretary Husted was not the Secretary of State in



Exhibit C


Matthew Damschroder


9 (Pages 33 to 36)

Page 33

1 2004.2 MR. KAUL: Okay.3 A Would you ask me the question again. I'm4 sorry.5 Q Yeah. Do you know what the longest wait time6 to vote was in 2004?7 A I don't know from the position of the8 Secretary of State's Office, but I have general9 recollections about Franklin County wait times from my

10 experience as the director of the Board of Elections11 there.12 Q Are you aware of evidence that wait time13 exceeded 10 hours at a precinct in 2004?14 A I don't think I'm aware of that.15 Q Are you aware of long waits at Kenyon College16 in particular?17 A I do recall that Knox County Board of18 Elections was also sued on election night because of19 wait times at a Kenyon College precinct.20 Q And do you know how long wait times at that21 precinct were?22 A I do not.23 Q And do you know how long wait times were in24 Franklin County?

Page 34

1 A From the Secretary of State's Office2 perspective I don't but I do from being director of the3 Board of Elections.4 Q As part the Secretary State's Office work5 does the Secretary of State's Office consider previous6 elections in making decisions about what they'll do?7 A Can you reask the question.8 Q Does the Secretary of State's Office take9 into account events from prior elections in determining

10 what policies it sets?11 A So I would say that this Secretary is very12 keen on the idea of continuous improvement and if there13 are things that we learned in one election about14 anything that can be helpful in providing information15 to the public or instructions to the Boards of16 Elections to make the next election -- the next17 administration election even better than the last, we18 want to look at those things and provide that19 information to the public or the boards.20 Q As part of that effort has your21 administration considered what took place in the 200422 election? Has the Husted administration?23 A Honestly, I think because the circumstances24 of elections administration in the State of Ohio are so

Page 35

1 dramatically different now than they were in 2004, I2 don't think we would have looked to 2004's experiences3 as being particularly instructive for current4 elections.5 I think the perfect example is and reason for6 that would be the advent of no fault absenteeism voting7 that was enacted at the end of '05 and became effective8 in the 2006 primary. That significantly impacted the9 ecosystems of election administration in Ohio.

10 Q Now, taking that example, no fault absentee,11 that was enacted in significant part in response to the12 2004 elections, correct?13 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form.14 A So I don't -- I wasn't a member of the15 General Assembly at the time and am not now so I don't16 know what all their particular reasons were.17 I know, again, Secretary Blackwell had18 advocated for no fault absentee at the beginning of his19 first term as Secretary of State and the General20 Assembly didn't enact it. So it wasn't an idea that21 was new. It wasn't an idea, a proposal that was put22 forward just because of the '04 election.23 If I can speaking totally for myself for a24 moment, that was one of the reasons that I advocated

Page 36

1 for it after the '04 election was to alleviate the2 potential for long lines on Election Day.3 Q And that was based on the experience in the4 2004 general election?5 A Again, speaking solely for myself and not for6 the office, that was my experience in '04 with long7 lines and with some long lines in some precincts on8 Election Day in Franklin County was one of the reasons9 that I advocated for no fault absenteeism.

10 Q And were the long lines in 2004 -- do you11 know whether the long lines in 2004 were12 disproportionately in areas with high African-American13 populations?14 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form.15 A From the office's standpoint I don't think we16 have that data or know the answer to that question from17 the Secretary of State Office's position.18 Q Do you know whether the long lines were19 disproportionately in areas that had large student20 populations?21 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form.22 A I would say the same answer. From the23 position of the Secretary of State's Office I don't24 think we have data on that.



Exhibit C


Matthew Damschroder


10 (Pages 37 to 40)

Page 37

1 Q And going back to a topic we were discussing2 just a moment ago, specifically to the extent to which3 your office considers prior elections in setting its4 policy. To what extent, if at all, do you consider the5 2004 election in setting policy currently?6 A I would say consistent with my testimony7 earlier that the statutory, legal, regulatory, whatever8 you want to call, the ecosystems of elections9 administration is so different now that looking to '04

10 I don't think is particularly instructive anymore.11 Q Do you ever consider the events of 2004 in12 setting policy?13 A Not from the Secretary of State's Office14 perspective.15 Q Do you know what the longest wait times to16 vote were in Ohio in the 2008 presidential general17 election?18 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form. And, again,19 that was before Secretary Husted's term.20 MR. KAUL: Okay.21 A I don't think the office -- the office22 doesn't track that. I don't think we know.23 Q And the same would be true for early voting24 in 2008?

Page 38

1 A Uh-huh.2 Q Is that a yes?3 A I'm sorry. Yes. Yes, it is.4 I think there is polling data out there in5 academia on it but I don't think our office -- I don't6 remember what it is.7 Q Have you looked at any of the academic8 literature on wait times to vote?9 A Yes.

10 Q Do you have any disagreements with what11 you've reviewed in that literature?12 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form.13 A So I think the academic literature that our14 office has taken most note of is the data collected by15 Charles Stewart in the Survey Performance of American16 Elections, SPAE, that he's conducted in the past, and I17 think most people look to that as being the most18 credible data out there.19 Q And his data considers average wait time to20 vote, correct?21 A I don't remember his methodology specifically22 and how he calculates that.23 Q Is it fair to say, then, that you also don't24 know whether he looked at the longest wait time to

Page 39

1 vote?2 A Again, I don't know for sure his methodology.3 Q And you had mentioned earlier some groups4 that collect data on wait times and that you5 sometimes -- I don't know if you review it but you said6 some groups collect data that's reported after the7 election?8 A Correct. I was speaking primarily there of9 the Charles Stewart data.

10 Q Are there other groups that collect data on11 election wait times?12 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form.13 A My recollection is that maybe the -- I can't14 remember what they call it, but the Census Bureau in15 their supplement looks at that, but I can't remember16 for sure.17 Q I should have said this when we started, by18 the way, but if at any point during this deposition you19 want to take a break, please let me know.20 It's my general practice to take breaks about21 once an hour. We've gone about 50 minutes so I'll go a22 little bit longer unless you would like a break now?23 A No, that's fine.24 Q Do you know what the longest wait times to

Page 40

1 vote in the 2012 election were?2 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form.3 A I do not.4 Q Does your office -- did your office track5 wait times in the 2012 election?6 A We did not.7 Q And that applies to both early voting and8 Election Day voting, correct?9 A Correct.

10 Q Are you aware of precincts that have wait11 times that exceeded an hour in the 2012 election?12 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form.13 A For clarity you're talking about Election Day14 precincts?15 Q Yes. Thank you.16 A I'm not.17 Q And what about early voting precincts?18 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form.19 A I'm not.20 Q So your office is not aware --21 A Let me take that back. What election are you22 talking about?23 Q The 2012 presidential general election.24 A I think -- no, not for 2012.



Exhibit C


Matthew Damschroder


11 (Pages 41 to 44)

Page 41

1 Q So the Secretary of State's Office is not2 aware of any wait times over an hour during early3 voting of the 2012 presidential general election; is4 that right?5 A Yes.6 Q And the same is true for Election Day voting7 in the 2012 election, right?8 A Yes.9 Q Does your office prepare differently for a

10 presidential election as opposed to a new term11 election?12 A I guess I'd ask, what do you consider13 differently?14 Q Let me ask the question a different way.15 From an election administration standpoint16 are there additional challenges in a presidential17 election as compared to a midterm election?18 A So, the fundamentals of elections19 administration are essentially the same from one20 election to the next. Choose whatever metaphor you21 want: Birthday party, annual rainfall, whatever22 metaphor you want to use the difference would be the23 volume of voters that are seeking to be -- that they're24 seeking to engage the process in that election.

Page 42

1 So the instructions that our office would2 give to Boards of Elections in preparing for the3 fundamentals would be the same, but we would beat the4 drum more on the resource management issues, preparing5 for volume and those kinds of things in a presidential6 election, presidential general, presidential primary,7 and a gubernatorial general.8 Q There's typically increased volume in terms9 of number of voters in a presidential election versus

10 all of the other of types of elections, correct?11 A Correct.12 Q That was a wordy way of saying more people13 vote in presidential elections than other elections?14 A Yes.15 Q Do the additional voters create additional16 strains on election administration?17 A I wouldn't term it strains, but I would say18 that it requires Boards of Elections to prepare for19 additional demands for resources.20 Q Wait times to vote is typically longer in a21 presidential election than other types of elections,22 correct?23 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form.24 A I don't know that I would necessarily use the

Page 43

1 word "typical" because there's different circumstances2 from one election to the next. And no fault absentee3 has changed the election data dynamic pretty4 significantly. But, you know, more people offering5 themselves to vote on Election Day can cause more6 demands for those services on Election Day than7 compared to this November.8 Q And by that you mean the November of 20149 midterm election?

10 A Actually, I was referring here to the11 November 2015 general election.12 Q Okay. And would you agree that the voters13 who vote in midterm elections tend to be more frequent14 voters than those who vote in the presidential15 elections?16 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form.17 A I don't know. I think it's -- I think the18 question as I would understand the question I'd say19 that in the presidential election there are some people20 who only vote in presidential general elections. So I21 think the frequent voter, I'd even take a step back22 from a gubernatorial and say that there is some people23 who even vote just in even numbered years and skip the24 odd numbered years. And so it's kind of grades I would

Page 44

1 say.2 Q And just to be clear for the record. Those3 grades involve people who are less frequent voters are4 more likely to vote in a presidential election --5 MR. VOIGT: Objection.6 A -- as compared to the other elections,7 correct?8 MR. VOIGT: I didn't hear your question.9 Q When you're referring to grades is it fair to

10 say that what you mean is the voters who vote in11 presidential elections on the whole involve more voters12 who vote -- well, let me withdraw that question and13 rephrase it.14 The voters who vote in odd year elections15 tend to be the most frequent voters, correct?16 MR. VOIGT: Objection.17 A So I would say most of the voters in an odd18 numbered year election are often the most frequent19 voters.20 Q And the same would apply to gubernatorial as21 compared to presidential years, correct?22 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form.23 A So I think similar to that I would say that24 most of the voters from a grade standpoint, you know,



Exhibit C


Matthew Damschroder


12 (Pages 45 to 48)

Page 45

1 you have people who vote every election, people who2 vote every even year general and some people who just3 vote in a presidential general. And so there are4 presidential general. Some of the people who vote are5 people who just vote every four years.6 Q And so to put it in, I guess, in different7 terms. There are a large number of people who vote8 only in presidential years, correct?9 A I don't know that it's a large number but

10 there is a number.11 Q And certainly a much smaller number of people12 who only vote in odd number elections, correct?13 A Correct.14 Q Your office does not track information about15 the race of voters, correct?16 A That's correct. We're not statutorily17 required to do that.18 Q Has your office considered doing that?19 A No.20 Q Why not?21 MR. VOIGT: Objection to the extent that your22 answer would involve any attorney-client23 communications. Exclude those from your answer,24 please.

Page 46

1 A So because -- when the statewide voter2 registration database was established, the State looked3 at the things that it was required to track. Those are4 the things they built the system for.5 So that's not something that we're required6 to do. We're not a pre-clearance state where that kind7 of data is required or necessary for the DOJ to8 evaluate changes and so it's not something that's9 necessary.

10 Q And do you have any way of assessing whether11 policies disparately impact members of particular12 racial groups?13 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form.14 A So in my time with the Secretary of State's15 office I have never once been a part of a conversation16 where the question was whether we should do something17 or not do something because it would help or hurt one18 particular group over another.19 Q Okay. But so do you have any way of20 assessing whether policies disparately impact members21 of a particular groups?22 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form.23 A So from a policy-making standpoint, no. I24 think it often comes up in litigation, but because

Page 47

1 that's not a -- because we don't -- we don't -- well,2 I'll just stop there.3 Q All right. And it's the view of your office4 that voter fraud is rare, correct?5 A Yes.6 Q And does your office have a position as to7 whether there was any connection between golden week8 and fraud?9 A I think some of the -- So in the 2012 general

10 election our office issued a directive to the Boards of11 Elections requiring them to follow the same procedure12 for a golden week registration as they would for any13 other voter registration, specifically sending of an14 acknowledgement card to the person after they have15 registered to update their address. And we told the16 boards if the acknowledgement came back as17 undeliverable from the post office they should follow18 the same statutory procedure for golden week as they19 would for any other voter, that being sending a20 confirmation card by a forwardable mail to the person21 allowing them to either update or confirm their22 registration.23 So after the election we issued a directive24 asking Boards of Elections to look at all of the

Page 48

1 allegations of fraud or suppression with the objective2 being, because often in a political environment there3 could be noise on both ends of the political spectrum,4 and so to try to cut against the height of the5 political hyperbole on both sides for the boards to6 look at any credible allegation of fraud or7 suppression. And my recollection is that at least in a8 couple instances there were allegations that the board9 looked at -- that some boards looked at that involved

10 allegations of fraud in the golden week context in11 2012.12 Q And was there anything unique to golden week13 in connection with those allegations of fraud?14 A I think the only thing that was unique to15 golden week in that context would be that the person --16 the allegation would be the person both registered and17 cast their ballot at the same time, whereas other18 instances of voter registration fraud would be it would19 take place outside of the context of contemporaneous20 casting of a ballot.21 Q Just for the record. When I'm referring to22 golden week, you understand I'm referring to what used23 to be the first week of early voting when voters could24 both register and vote at the same time, correct?



Exhibit C


Matthew Damschroder


13 (Pages 49 to 52)

Page 49

1 A Correct. So I would say, yeah, from the 35th2 day before an election through the close of3 registration day when a person can vote, register or4 change their address and cast a ballot at the same5 time.6 Q Okay. So with the elimination of golden week7 a voter could still register at the same time that he8 or she previously could in relation to an election,9 correct?

10 A Could you say that again.11 Q The registration period is the same since the12 elimination of golden week as it was before, correct?13 A Correct. The Constitution has not been14 changed. We still have a 30-day cut-off for voter15 registration.16 Q And a voter who registered to vote, say, 3017 days before an election could then cast an in-person18 ballot two days later, correct?19 A Yes.20 Q And that voter's registration wouldn't have21 been verified at the time that they cast that in-person22 ballot in most circumstances, correct?23 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form. Calls for24 speculation.

Page 50

1 A I don't know about most circumstances. Our2 office would instruct boards to continue to follow the3 same process of sending an acknowledgement card after4 registration. So in some cases that confirmation may5 actually happen before the ballot is requested.6 Q Okay. But voters may still cast ballots7 after golden week even though the confirmation has not8 been processed yet, or the process has not been9 completed I should say?

10 A Correct.11 Q So in terms of the -- well, I'll strike that.12 So the only difference from the fraud13 concerns between what existed during golden week and14 existed now is that golden week a voter could both cast15 a ballot and register at the same time?16 A Correct.17 Q Okay. And did the joint registration of18 voting in the view of the Secretary of State's Office19 encourage fraud in some way?20 A I don't think the Secretary was cognizant I21 think as was the previous Secretary that there was --22 that there is a unique challenge about that golden week23 period and that having registration -- having in-person24 and regular absentee balloting start after the close of

Page 51

1 registration would eliminate potential risk.2 Q When you say there was a unique challenge, do3 you mean with respect to fraud prevention specifically?4 A Yes, with respect to fraud prevention from a5 person potentially registering and casting a ballot at6 the same time.7 Q Okay. And how is the challenge any different8 in the hypothetical we were just discussing?9 A So I think the challenge is alleviated

10 because there does allow for some period of time in11 which the board may conduct its acknowledgement mailing12 before the voter potentially votes as opposed to no13 ability for to that happen from the time the voter gets14 the ballot.15 Q Now, golden week the ballots weren't counted16 until the confirmation had been received, correct?17 A That's correct.18 Q So in the case of a voter whose confirmation19 acknowledgement was confirmed -- whose registration was20 confirmed within two days, the ballot had been cast21 during golden week wouldn't have been counted until22 that confirmation had come back within two days,23 correct?24 MR. VOIGT: Object to -- confusing.

Page 52

1 A I was going to say, can you -- I lost you in2 the hypothetical. I apologize.3 Q Yeah.4 So if a voter's registration during golden5 week had been confirmed within two days, the ballot6 would just be counted once the confirmation came back,7 correct?8 A Correct.9 Q Okay. And that's true now also, correct, the

10 ballot was counted when the confirmation comes back?11 A Well, no ballots are counted before the tenth12 day before the election, so that would be correct.13 Q Okay. So I guess what I don't understand is,14 how is that different from before to now?15 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form.16 A So I think it alleviates a -- while there's17 still -- while there's still the potential for points18 of fraud along any aspect of the elections19 administration process, I think it's incumbent upon20 policymakers to identify points where there is -- where21 there are legitimate risks that are increased in a time22 period and to address those. And I think there were23 instances where Boards of Elections and the public felt24 that there were particular circumstances of increased



Exhibit C


Matthew Damschroder


14 (Pages 53 to 56)

Page 53

1 risk and so the General Assembly acted to reduce that2 instance of risk.3 Now, I think the Secretary has said4 consistently that instances of fraud are rare, that we5 have a good system in Ohio, but that when we do find6 fraud we do our best to catch people and to -- and to7 have local county prosecuting attorneys make8 determinations to hold people accountable.9 But I think the General Assembly's view,

10 obviously not speaking for them, but it would appear11 that there was an edification of a possible potential12 risk that they sought to close.13 Q Does your office view that there is a14 heightened risk of fraud during golden week relative to15 others?16 A I think our office believed there was a17 unique risk of fraud in golden week, which is why we18 issued that particular directive in 2012 about19 addressing golden week registrants.20 Q Okay. When you say "unique" is that21 different from heightened?22 A Probably. I mean I use it as in the sense of23 there's a particular kind of risk as opposed to other24 kinds of risk.

Page 54

1 Q Is it your office's view that there was a2 heightened risk during golden week?3 A I guess I don't know -- you know, 11 on a4 scale of 10? I don't know what heightened is. I5 explained what unique was, so --6 Q Yeah. I guess what I'm wondering is does7 your office think that it was more likely that fraud8 would be committed by a golden week voter than another9 voter who cast an absentee ballot?

10 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Asked and answered.11 A I don't think our office quantified it on a12 voter basis. I think we looked at it from the13 standpoint of all of the different points along the14 process there's the potential for risk and this is one15 where there was a unique potential for a kind of risk16 and so the General Assembly addressed it.17 Q Okay. Do you know whether Secretary Husted18 stated that your office had discovered that during19 golden week there were people registering to vote and20 voting even though they weren't really Ohioans?21 A Yes. I remember a particular instance, I22 think it was reported by the Toledo Blade, where my23 recollection of the report was that it was a gentleman24 who lived in another state brought his RV in and parked

Page 55

1 in a relative's driveway and then registered to vote.2 Q And so, first of all, do you know if3 Secretary Husted was quoted accurately in the article?4 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Do you have the5 article?6 MR. KAUL: Well, let me ask the question7 first.8 A I don't know for sure. I don't have a9 particular reason to not believe he wasn't quoted

10 correctly.11 Q Okay. You remember the general comment; is12 that fair to say?13 A I remember the general article. I don't14 remember the general comment, but I think he was quoted15 in the article.16 Q Did he make a statement to that effect, do17 you know?18 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form.19 A I don't remember for sure but I think -- I20 remember there was an article.21 Q Okay. And that the evidence for that you22 gave the example of the person in the RV. Are there23 other instances of which you're aware of that support24 that?

Page 56

1 A Not that I'm -- not that I recall this2 particular moment.3 Q Okay. And the person in the RV do you know4 if he was charged with a crime?5 A I do not know whether Lucas County Board of6 Elections investigated that or not.7 Q Have you done any investigation in that8 circumstance?9 A So the Secretary of State's Office -- Board

10 of Elections have the primary duty to investigate11 allegations of election falsification or fraud. They12 work through their county prosecuting attorney and13 sheriff to do that. So our office instructed Boards of14 Elections to do that. We haven't conducted an15 independent investigation of voters apart from having16 Boards of Elections fulfill their duties.17 Q And when you say you instructed county Boards18 of Elections to do that do you mean generally19 investigate fraud not this specific instance; is that20 right?21 A That's correct.22 At your convenience if we can take a break.23 Q I was just going to suggest that.24 MR. KAUL: Can we go off the record, please.



Exhibit C


Matthew Damschroder


15 (Pages 57 to 60)

Page 57

1 (A recess was taken.)2 MR. KAUL: Back on the record.3 Q Mr. Damschroder, I'm going to show you some4 exhibits.5 (Exhibit No. 1 was marked for identification.)6 Q First, do you recognize Exhibit 1?7 A Yes.8 Q And what is that?9 A It is the 2012 Post-General Elections

10 Statewide Voter Fraud Report.11 Q And this is a report put out by your office,12 correct?13 A Yes. They reported on I believe the results14 of the Secretary of State's instruction to Boards of15 Elections to conduct review of credible allegations of16 fraud or suppression.17 Q And the -- First, is this the final version18 of this report, do you know? If you can't tell, I19 understand.20 A I don't know based on this, but --21 Q Okay. The first question I have about it is,22 what role did your office place in creating this? And23 let me be more specific.24 Did your office collect an aggregate from the

Page 58

1 counties and then this report reflects the data that2 you collected; is that fair?3 A I think it's fair to say this is an4 aggregation of the information that the Boards of5 Elections reported to us.6 Q And the only independent investigation your7 office conducted was the Interstate Crosscheck portion8 of this; is that right?9 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form.

10 A I believe that is correct, yes.11 Q And what instructions were provided to the12 counties in their provision of data to you?13 A I don't know that we -- I think the total of14 our instructions were contained in the directive that15 provided the instructions to the Boards of Elections on16 what to do.17 Q Do you recall what that directive was?18 A I think it was either the last directive of19 2012 or one of the first ones of 2013. I don't recall20 what the number was.21 Q Now, one of the columns in this report is22 titled "Irregularities Reported by Counties." Do you23 see that?24 A Yes.

Page 59

1 Q What constituted an irregularity?2 A So we did not provide a definition to boards3 to follow so -- because there's not really a statutory4 definition of an irregularity and so I think in the5 context of the directive that we issued I think we used6 the phrase "credible allegations of fraud or7 suppression." And so irregularities here would be8 things that the boards had reports of consistent of9 what the directive looked into.

10 Q And, now, if a board has a credible report of11 fraud is it supposed to refer that allegation to county12 prosecutors?13 A So Boards of Elections have statutory14 authority to investigate election irregularities on15 their own. They have subpoena authority. They can16 receive testimony at a hearing of the board, et cetera.17 So Boards of Elections can review an18 irregularity on their own authority either based on19 their own records or on a report from a third-party20 that's credible. But for it to move into what I21 consider the law enforcement phase then they would have22 to refer it to the county prosecutor, who is also the23 board's counsel, who would then actually do kind of the24 more formal law enforcement style investigation as -- a

Page 60

1 board's role is more administrative in nature as2 opposed to law enforcement in nature.3 Q Okay. Is it your understanding that some of4 the irregularities were investigated by the county5 boards and found not to be cases of fraud?6 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form.7 A I would say that based on these facts, these8 numbers, that would be true, that there were some9 irregularities that they looked at that they did not

10 refer to the county prosecuting attorney for further11 investigation.12 Q Do you know why those cases were not13 referred?14 A I don't recall specifically, no.15 Q Now, the next column over to the right is16 Cases Referred By Counties; is that correct?17 A Yes.18 Q And that refers to cases that were referred19 by county Boards of Elections to prosecutors, correct?20 A Yes.21 Q And just for the record, the rows reflect22 each of the counties in the state of Ohio, right?23 A Correct. The top row being the totals for24 the counties.



Exhibit C


Matthew Damschroder


16 (Pages 61 to 64)

Page 61

1 Q Right.2 Now, the -- First of all -- sorry. Let me go3 back a step to the irregularities.4 Was it the county's -- was there a direction5 that they should report any case of any credible6 allegation of fraud; is that right?7 A My recollection without seeing the directive8 my recollection is that we instructed them to use their9 statutory administrative authority to review any

10 credible cases of fraud or suppression, and then if11 anything needed further -- warranted further review by12 the county prosecutor then to refer it to the13 prosecutor.14 MR. VOIGT: I have an objection to form. Are15 you just referring to this chart in 2012 or are you16 referring to something broader than that?17 MR. KAUL: I'm sorry. I'm just referring to18 the chart.19 MR. VOIGT: Okay.20 BY MR. KAUL:21 Q Now, is there a standard that county boards22 are supposed to follow in deciding what to refer to23 county prosecutors?24 A So I think the answer to that is that there

Page 62

1 are statutory definitions of what constitutes election2 falsification or election fraud and boards would --3 what we have instructed boards in the past is that when4 they get into this I think the phrase is quasi-judicial5 role or duty of the board that they're supposed to work6 closely with their prosecuting attorney. And so the7 elected prosecuting attorney would then advise boards8 on what warrants further investigation by law9 enforcement.

10 Q Okay. So your office doesn't provide any11 specific direction to the counties on that; is that12 right?13 A Correct.14 Q Now, there is no column on this chart for15 cases that were charged by prosecutors, correct?16 A That's correct.17 Q Do you know how many of the 115 referred18 cases were charged by prosecutors?19 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form.20 A I don't know.21 Q Do you know if any were?22 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form.23 A I do know that some were.24 My recollection is there was some media

Page 63

1 reports surrounding some folks who were charged and I2 think convicted in Hamilton County, but I don't recall3 whether our office aggregated data from Boards of4 Elections on whether the cases were -- whether charges5 were filed and whether there were convictions.6 Q And the cases that you're thinking of, how7 many particular cases?8 A There's two that come to mind right off the9 bat.

10 Q Do you know of others that were charged11 besides those two?12 A Not that I remember specifically.13 Q And you tell me if this is incorrect, but is14 it fair to say that your belief is that those cases led15 to convictions but you're not certain?16 A So in the two cases that I recall from media17 reports in Hamilton County, I think one was a precinct18 election official who had cast absentee votes for other19 people, and then the other was a person who cast an20 absentee ballot of a deceased friend. My recollection21 on that those individuals were prosecuted and that22 there were convictions.23 Q Okay. And so none of those incidents that24 resulted in criminal charges involved fraud committed

Page 64

1 during golden week, correct?2 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form.3 A I don't know for sure.4 Q The two that you described were not incidents5 of fraud during golden week, correct?6 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form. Asked and7 answered.8 A I don't believe so but I don't know for sure.9 Q Now, there's also a column for Interstate

10 Crosscheck Cases Referred by the Secretary of State.11 Do you see that?12 A I do.13 Q And there were 20 in 2012 according to this14 chart, correct?15 A Correct.16 Q Do you know how many of those cases led to17 criminal charges?18 A I do not.19 Q Do you know if any did?20 A I don't know for sure.21 Q Is your involvement in Interstate22 Crosscheck mandated by statute?23 A It is not mandated by statute.24 Q Did your agency consider joining ERIC rather



Exhibit C


Matthew Damschroder


17 (Pages 65 to 68)

Page 65

1 than Interstate Crosscheck?2 A Yes.3 Q And just for the record can you explain what4 ERIC is.5 A I would love to.6 Q Briefly.7 A Darn it. It took us four organizational8 meetings to create that thing.9 So ERIC is the Electronic Registration

10 Information Center. It was funded by the Pew Center.11 It's an independent body made up of member states that12 put in their voter data and ERIC though a very13 sophisticated IBM something or other returns potential14 in-state duplicates, cross-state duplicates, deceased15 voters, and other information like that.16 Q And so you're not a part of ERIC, correct?17 A Not yet.18 Q Do you intend to become part of ERIC?19 A The Secretary of State has been very clear --20 one of the components of ERIC membership is that the21 member state has to identify eligible but22 unregistered residents based on BMV records and has to23 mail those individuals to give them an opportunity to24 register to vote, which is not required by state or

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1 federal law but is required by the terms of the2 membership.3 The Secretary has been consistent in saying4 that before we can consider that cost to the taxpayers5 for that kind of mailing he wants to have online voter6 registration enacted by the General Assembly so those7 registrations that result from that mailing can be done8 online by the voters and not cost an additional expense9 to the county Board of Elections.

10 Q All right. So it's the current position of11 your office is that if online voter registration is12 passed you're going to enter it; is that right?13 A I think our position is if it's passed then14 we'll look at it.15 Q I see.16 All right. And so why did you join17 Interstate Crosscheck?18 A The two biggest reasons were that it was free19 and at the time it was the -- I think at the time in20 2012 -- ERIC didn't come online until '13 -- it was the21 only available method to review for potential22 cross-state duplicates.23 Q Now, it's free in terms of obtaining data,24 correct?

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1 A Correct. Different from ERIC. There is no2 membership fee for a state to upload their data or to3 get potential matches back.4 Q Okay. And what is the cost, if you know, of5 investigating the results obtained from Interstate6 Crosscheck?7 A I would say from our office's perspective,8 nominal.9 Q Who investigates the results obtained from

10 Interstate Crosscheck?11 A For the 20 that are listed as referred we12 sent those 20 names to the Attorney General.13 Q Okay. And how many names did you receive14 originally, approximately?15 A I don't remember for sure.16 The way Interstate Crosscheck works is you17 get back essentially everything you put back in and you18 have to sort through it to decide what you want to do19 with it because not all states provide last four of20 social, not all states provide date of birth. There21 are a great deal of false positives with Interstate22 Crosscheck so different states do different things.23 We took probably the most conservative24 approach in the country to it and kept culling down the

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1 data as far as we could to absolute matches on all data2 we could find, which is why there's only 20, whereas3 some states referred I think reports from other states4 tens of thousands and things like that, so ...5 Q Okay. And so which matches -- or which data6 fields matched would vary by person because different7 states provide different data, correct?8 A So for purposes of Interstate Cross match9 purposes different people match for different reasons,

10 but because we took the most conservative approach11 internally we decided as an IT rule to require it to12 match on all of the fields that -- or I think four of13 the five fields that we require for our statewide14 registration database.15 Q And then you referred the 20 people in 201216 who fit that criteria, correct?17 A Right, to the Attorney General.18 Q Let me ask you about another document.19 (Exhibit No. 2 was marked for identification.)20 Q This would be the largest document today. I21 promise that.22 Have you reviewed this document previously?23 A It appears to be maybe a transcript of the24 public meeting of the Presidential Commission on



Exhibit C


Matthew Damschroder


18 (Pages 69 to 72)

Page 69

1 Election Administration in Cincinnati on September the2 20th of 2013.3 I have not reviewed the transcript but I was4 present at the meeting.5 Q All right. Here's what I want to do if you6 haven't reviewed it. I'm going to ask you to look at7 certain portions and, first of all, tell me if the8 transcript appears to be accurate; and secondly, to9 confirm that where you were the speaker and where

10 Secretary Husted was the speaker.11 There are only about -- only a few of the12 pages are the ones that I'm interested in so I'll ask13 you about those.14 A Okay.15 Q So I'll ask you to do that during a break so16 we don't spend a bunch of time sitting here on the17 record. So why don't we set that aside for now.18 A Okay.19 MR. VOIGT: So you're going to ask him during20 a break to review this?21 MR. KAUL: Yeah. We can take a longer break22 if you like. The relevant parts only go through page23 6, I believe. Page 5. Okay. I won't make you read24 the whole thing. All right.

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1 (Exhibit No. 3 was marked for identification.)2 Q The next document, Exhibit 3. Would you,3 first of all, just take a look at this and confirm that4 this is the directive of 2014-15.5 A This appears to be Directive 2014-15 issued6 on May 21 of 2015.7 Q Now, this is a directive issued by the8 Secretary of State, correct?9 A Correct.

10 Q And first can you explain how the directive11 process works.12 A So in some cases state law or a court order13 requires the Secretary of State to issue instructions14 to Boards of Elections, and instructions from the15 Secretary to Boards of Elections -- Boards of Elections16 are required by state law to follow the instructions of17 the Secretary of State and state law says that the18 Secretary generally instructs counties through19 directives, advisories, memoranda.20 And so in instances where state law or court21 order don't compel the Secretary to issue a directive22 there are other instances where we would issue23 directives to provide instructions to county Boards of24 Elections.

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1 If I remember all of your question I think2 this particular directive was issued to Boards of3 Elections in preparation for, quote, "from a summary in4 preparation for the Secretary of State's statewide5 mailing of absentee ballot applications for the6 November 4, 2014 general election," end quote.7 Q And let me direct your attention to the8 bottom of page 1.9 A Okay.

10 Q And the first sentence of that paragraph11 continues on to the second page?12 A Yes.13 Q And according to that sentence -- well, first14 of all let me go back a step.15 This directive relates to the mailing of16 absentee ballot applications to registered voters in17 Ohio, correct?18 A Correct, for use at the 2014 general19 election.20 Q And these are -- the absentee ballot21 applications were not solicited by those voters. They22 were sent to all voters with certain exceptions,23 correct?24 A Correct.

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1 Q Now, if a voter receives one of those2 applications, he or she can mail that application in in3 order to receive an absentee ballot, right?4 A They could complete the application with the5 required fields, mail it to their county Board of6 Elections, and then if they meet the eligibility for an7 casting absentee ballot the board would send them a8 ballot, correct.9 Q Now, state law prohibits the sending of the

10 absentee ballot application with a prepaid return11 envelope, correct?12 A That's my recollection, yes.13 Q Do you have a view as to whether that should14 be the state law?15 A I do not.16 Q And by you I mean your office.17 A Thank you for clarifying.18 I think our office's position is that the law19 is fine.20 Q Would you agree that voters would be more21 likely to return those applications if they were sent22 with prepaid return envelopes?23 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form.24 A I don't know whether we have data that shows



Exhibit C


Matthew Damschroder


19 (Pages 73 to 76)

Page 73

1 if the postage was paid or not. I think the data shows2 a lot of people used the application and voted by3 absentee ballot.4 Q Have you reviewed the data from the counties5 that sent prepaid envelopes to voters prior to 2014?6 A I don't think our office has that kind of7 data. And if a previous administration collected it,8 because the only two times they're been, so during9 Secretary Husted's administration there have been two

10 statewide mailings on absentee ballots.11 In 2012, 2014 those have been the only12 mail-ins, unsolicited absentee mail-ins by government13 officials to voters, and so to the extent that there's14 data that would be collected in a previous15 administration, I don't think we reviewed it.16 Q Now, going back to that sentence that I17 directed you to a moment ago. The mailing described in18 this directive is sent only to voters in the active19 status. Was only sent to active status as of July 1st,20 2014, correct?21 A At the top paragraph of page 2 it says, "One22 to every registered voter in Ohio an active status as23 August 1, 2014, and every registered voter in Ohio who24 voted in the 2010 general elections or the 2012

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1 presidential general election."2 Q Right. I apologize. So it could be either3 active status or somebody who had voted in one of the4 two prior even year general elections, correct?5 A Correct.6 Q Do you know how many voters received mailings7 because they fell into that second category?8 A I don't know.9 Q Do you have an estimate as to the percentage

10 of people who received it who fell in that second11 category?12 A I don't know for sure the number but I would13 say it's a much smaller percentage the number of who14 received it because they were in an active active15 status.16 Q Do you know whether it's more than17 10 percent?18 A I don't know.19 Q But you'd agree that there are a number of20 voters who were not in active status but who had cast21 ballots in one of the two prior even year general22 elections?23 A I would agree that there were some people who24 were in a confirmation status but had voted in either

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1 the 2010 or 2012 presidential election that received2 the application, yes.3 Q And what is a confirmation status?4 A So there are four reasons why a person might5 be in a confirmation status.6 The reason for which the majority of the7 individuals would be in a confirmation status would be8 that the person reported to the post office a change of9 address and in the state's annual list maintenance

10 program that list was provided to the state by the post11 office and the Board of Elections sent a confirmation12 card to the person's new address giving them an13 opportunity to register to vote either online or by14 mail, update their address online or by mail.15 So if a person failed to respond to a16 confirmation notice updating their address or confirm17 their address had not changed, they would be in18 confirmation status.19 The other three are the less frequently used20 statuses for confirmation status. That being a person21 who would be in a confirmation status because of the22 supplemental process of the list maintenance mailing23 and those would be individuals who receive a24 confirmation card but who aren't receiving the

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1 confirmation card because of a change of address.2 They're receiving the confirmation card to confirm3 their address because they had not voted in the last4 two calendar years included in the federal general5 election.6 The other two categories would be a person7 who had registered to vote or changed their address or8 name, the board sent an acknowledgement card by9 non-forwardable mail that was returned to the Board of

10 Elections -- I apologize I'm probably talking too11 fast -- and the board sent a confirmation card by12 forwardable mail to the person asking them to either13 confirm their address or to update their address.14 And then the fourth reason would be a person15 who is a first-time registrant by mail under the Help16 America Vote Act whose information when supplied to the17 BMV or through the BMV to the Social Security18 Administration did not match the information that the19 BMV or Social Security Administration has on file for20 that person, in which case the board would send them a21 confirmation card asking them to change their address.22 It's important to note that the overwhelming23 majority of the people in the voter file are in an24 active active status and that all of the people -- all



Exhibit C


Matthew Damschroder


20 (Pages 77 to 80)

Page 77

1 of the individuals who are in a confirmation status are2 still printed in the pollbook on Election Day and that3 no one's registration gets canceled for being in a4 confirmation status except for a four-year period after5 the board sends them notice, a four-year period that6 include two federal generals. Again, cancellation7 can't be within 90 days of the federal election.8 Q I do have several follow-up questions. Let9 me start with this one: Do you know what the return

10 rate is on confirmation mailings?11 A What the return rate from voters completing12 the card?13 Q Yes.14 A I don't know off the top of my head.15 Q Would you agree that it's low?16 A I don't know what low is characterized at,17 but it's probably less than half.18 Q Okay. Do you believe it's less than19 25 percent?20 A I don't know.21 Q Now, and there's a footnote about this in the22 document, Note 2 that explains the inactive statuses,23 correct?24 A Correct.

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1 Q Let me start with Status C -- or Category C,2 which are the voters acknowledgement returned as3 undeliverable.4 Are you aware of instances in which notices5 are returned as undeliverable even though a person does6 reside where the registration indicates?7 A I'm not aware of specific voters but I know8 from my, again, speaking from my experience in Franklin9 County, yes, that does happen because of error by the

10 post office.11 Q Do colleges and universities also sometimes12 have errors with those sorts of mailings?13 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form.14 A I don't know, again, specifically on those15 kind of error rates. And I probably shouldn't call16 them error rates; undeliverable rates.17 Q Category D refers to the BMV and SSA records.18 SSA refers to which agency, please?19 A Social Security Administration.20 Q And what would be the failure to match21 between SSA and voter registration? Is that the social22 security number?23 A So under the Help American Vote Act a first24 time registrant by mail the election official has to

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1 send that voting record to BMV to see if it matches.2 If the BMV doesn't have it, they send it to the Social3 Security Administration to see if they have it.4 If something doesn't match there in terms of5 identification, generally that would be the last four6 of social if we're talking SSA or driver's license7 number if we're checking BMV, and that would trigger8 the mailing of a confirmation card in that instance.9 Q Okay. And so, for instance, a college

10 student who had a driver's license at his or her11 parents' address but registered at his or her college12 address would receive a confirmation mailing, correct?13 A Only if the person is a first time registrant14 by mail in Ohio would the record be sent to the BMV.15 And if ID didn't match if that person used the last16 four, then it would be sent to the Social Security17 Administration. But, yeah, if the ID didn't match then18 it would come back as not a match.19 Q Okay. And there is a reference in (A) to20 general voter records list maintenance program. Do you21 see that? And then there's a NCOA process.22 A Yes.23 Q Is that entirely based on the NCOA process or24 are there other processes that go into the records list

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1 maintenance?2 A So (A) would be just the NCOA portion of the3 list maintenance program as I described earlier. And4 (B) would be the supplemental part, the look-back for5 participation in an election in the past two years,6 including a federal general.7 Q Now, everybody in the active confirmation8 status is eligible to vote you said; is that right?9 A So anyone who is in an active active status

10 or an active confirmation status are printed in the11 pollbooks, considered a qualified elector, and if their12 information is correct, if their information at the13 time they present themselves to vote, request an14 absentee ballot, vote at the polls on Election Day, is15 consistent with what is in the voter file and then the16 voter cast a regular ballot.17 Q Okay. Now, individuals in active18 confirmation status are not part of the unsolicited19 absentee ballot mailing, correct?20 A Except for Part 2 of the universe if they21 voted in the '10 or '12 presidential election. And the22 purpose for including that second exception or to23 include that exception would be to bring into the24 universe of people receiving the mailing anyone who is



Exhibit C


Matthew Damschroder


21 (Pages 81 to 84)

Page 81

1 in a confirmation status because of -- particularly2 people in the supplement -- the list maintenance3 supplemental process, the BMV/SSA mismatch, or the4 undeliverable acknowledgement card.5 Those being the smallest universe of6 individuals in confirmation status who there is not an7 additional government record that shows that their8 address is not what's in the voter file. So if they9 voted in the last two federal general elections they

10 get an application.11 Q All right. Now, your office intends to do a12 similar mailing for the 2016 election, correct?13 A Yes.14 Q And do you intend again to send the mailing15 only to individuals who are either an active status or16 have voted in one of the two prior even year general17 elections?18 A Our intent is to have the universe be every19 registered voter at the time of the poll who is in an20 active active statute, and then anyone in a21 confirmation status who voted in either 2014 or 2012.22 And I would add to that the two components23 that I'm particularly proud about is that and one of24 the things that we do for the voter file at that time

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1 is in order to get the best postage rates we also have2 to tell the post office that we did an NCOA comparison,3 National Change of Address comparison, within 60 days4 of the mailing or whatever the postal rate is.5 So in addition to mailing the applications we6 also identify anybody from the voter file who has filed7 a change of address whether they received a8 confirmation card in the past or haven't, and we send9 them a postcard encouraging them to update their

10 address.11 So not only is this mailing serving as an12 opportunity to have individuals request an absentee13 ballot, it's also serving as a reason to contact14 voters who would potentially otherwise have to cast a15 provisional ballot on Election Day who might not be16 eligible to cast an absentee ballot or not because they17 moved.18 And then the other part that I love is that19 we then after the first mailing anybody who's20 registered to vote or change their address up until I21 think the weekend before the close of registration we22 then do a second mailing to all those people, all those23 individuals. So we have a supplemental application24 process to catch anybody who wasn't in the first poll.

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1 It's pretty cool.2 Q Okay. So, first of all, have funds been3 appropriated for 2016?4 A Yes.5 Q And do you know how many voters fall within6 the active confirmation category?7 Well, let's take 2014 as an example. Do you8 know how many voters in 2014 fell into the active9 confirmation category, registered voters that is, and

10 have not voted in the two prior even year general11 elections?12 A I don't know. And the voter files are a very13 dynamic database, so if we take a snapshot of it today14 and a snapshot of it tomorrow it will show different15 numbers because a person will change their address16 online and then filled out something with the Board of17 Elections the board has entered. So it's a fluid and18 dynamic database.19 Q Do you know if the number of voters who fall20 into that category is over a million?21 A I do not know.22 Q Do you know what percentage of eligible23 registered voters it is?24 A I don't know other than to say that the

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1 overwhelming majority of the registered voters are2 in an inactive/active status.3 Q And what do you mean by overwhelming4 majority?5 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form. Asked and6 answered.7 A Bunches. I don't know but it's far more than8 50 percent.9 Q Why don't you mail voters in -- why do you

10 limit it to certain registered voters and not send it11 to everybody?12 A Sure. So in order for a voter to receive an13 absentee ballot their application has to have at least14 five elements that the voter can provide, two of which15 would be preprinted by the Secretary of State or by the16 Board of Education initially. So one of the things17 that has to be accurate or match the voter files is the18 person's address.19 In order to assist Boards of Elections with20 efficiency in processing applications when we print the21 applications they are voter specific. So we print the22 voter's name and address on it. We also print a bar23 code on it with a voter identification number so the24 board can just scan them into a -- boards have



Exhibit C


Matthew Damschroder


22 (Pages 85 to 88)

Page 85

1 different processes, but pulling up -- you know,2 scanning the bar code allows them to quickly pull the3 voter record out and check identification and verify4 signature.5 So if we were to mail vast numbers of6 applications to voters who had filed a change of7 address with the post office we would be mailing8 applications to a voter who could not use that9 application because they would first have to update

10 their address with the Board of Elections in order to11 properly request an absentee ballot.12 That's why we send them the postcard instead13 telling them that they need to update their address and14 move it to the website to do so.15 Q Is the voter who files a change of address16 with the post office required to vote from the new17 location?18 A A voter is required to vote -- the voter is19 required to register from the address of their20 residence.21 Q Right. So let's take the example of the22 college student who wants his or her mail sent to his23 college address. Certainly those college students can24 vote from their parents' residence, correct?

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1 A Well, the state law defines residency for2 purposes of voting, and broadly it's the address to3 which a person tends to return whenever they're away4 where their habitation is fixed.5 And so an individual who is raised in New6 York who comes to The Ohio State University to attend7 college can register and vote here in Columbus.8 A student in Columbus, raised in Columbus who9 goes to Cleveland, can register to vote from the

10 Cleveland address and participate in their community11 that way, or they can vote absentee or drive back to12 Columbus and vote here in the precinct where they were13 raised so long as wherever they register to vote it14 meets the statutory definition of fixed habitation,15 place of intent to return when away and whatever the16 handful of other statutory rules are.17 So it's up to that person to decide where to18 register to vote, and when they register to vote they19 can request an absentee ballot for that address.20 Q So the student you described from Columbus21 who attends school in Cleveland, if that student wants22 to vote in Columbus but is having his mail sent to his23 Cleveland dorm address, he won't receive an unsolicited24 absentee ballot application unless he's voted in one of

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1 the two prior elections, correct?2 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form.3 A So I would say if the person is registered in4 Columbus and has not filed a change of address with the5 post office to transfer the mail from the Columbus6 address to the Cleveland address they'll get an7 application at the Columbus address.8 Q But he has filed a change of address?9 A Then that person will instead -- and didn't

10 vote in the last two elections, then that person would11 instead get a card encouraging them to update their12 address to the place where they currently reside.13 Q And if that student wasn't eligible to vote14 in the last two elections is that considered as having15 not voted in the last two elections?16 A So in order to get -- in order for a person17 in confirmation status to get the mail they would have18 had to have voted in the last two federal generals.19 Q I'm sorry. I may be misunderstanding.20 So if a student registers at his parents'21 address and then moves to a college address and files a22 change of residence and that student hasn't voted, will23 that student get a confirmation notice?24 A So just for ease for me let me communicate it

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1 back.2 So if a person is registered in Columbus,3 goes to college in Cleveland, registers in Cleveland?4 Q I'm sorry. No, he doesn't register in5 Cleveland, just wants to get his mail in Cleveland so6 files a change of address form.7 A Okay. So the person is registered in8 Columbus, moves to Cleveland, files a change of address9 with the post office and did not vote in the last two

10 federal generals they will not get an unsolicited11 absentee application from the Secretary of State unless12 that person then responds to the postcard and updates13 their address.14 But it's also important to note that that15 person can then appear in person at the Cuyahoga Board16 of Elections after the close of registration, cast a17 provisional ballot in person, can cast a provisional18 ballot at the person's Cleveland polling place on19 Election Day, or fill out a registration form and20 change their address to Cleveland before the close of21 registration.22 Q Okay. So why not mail unsolicited absentee23 ballots to every registered voter?24 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form.



Exhibit C


Matthew Damschroder


23 (Pages 89 to 92)

Page 89

1 A Well, I think like I answered earlier because2 the applications are individualized with the voter ID3 number and the voter address.4 Sending an application to a person who has a5 change of address on file with the post office that6 isn't reflected in the voter registration record would7 be sending an application that they couldn't use.8 If they filled it out, the Board of Elections9 wouldn't have it in the file, would have the wrong

10 address, so instead we send them something that is11 useful and that's a postcard to tell them change your12 address before the close of registration.13 Q In the hypothetical we were just discussing14 the college student could use that ballot to vote,15 though, right?16 A So they actually wouldn't because the post17 office would -- we would not mail a Columbus address to18 a Cleveland mailing address.19 So a person who is registered in Columbus who20 has a change of address on file with the post office,21 if we were to change that person's address for the22 purposes of mailing, that person in Cleveland would23 receive an application with their name and their24 Cleveland address when the voter file reflects them

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1 registered to vote in Columbus, which means the person2 they they're intending to vote from a -- they decided3 their residence is in Cleveland they would not be4 legally allowed to use that application to cast an5 absentee ballot in Cleveland.6 Q But that receiving mail in Cleveland doesn't7 mean that their residence is in Cleveland, right?8 A Correct, yeah. The person makes the9 determination where their residence is and based on the

10 statutory prescription of fixed habitation and, et11 cetera.12 Q And so couldn't those absentee ballots be13 sent to the address where the person is registered?14 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form.15 A So I guess I need more clarity on your16 hypothetical.17 Q Well, in this case it would be the parents --18 the address where the parents reside?19 A And so I guess the question is how would the20 Secretary of State's Office know which people have an21 address change on file with the post office who intend22 to have their residence be other than what the post23 office has for them?24 Q Well, it's their registered address which

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1 they're registered to vote, correct?2 A The address where they're registered to vote3 would be the place that they have said at one point in4 time is their residence.5 I guess what I'm responding is that a person6 who is in Cleveland who has a change of -- who is7 registered in Columbus, has a change of address on file8 with the post office who didn't vote in the last two9 federal elections, to send a pre-populated application

10 to them at an address where they're not currently11 living, even if the address where they're registered is12 considered their residence for voting purpose, doesn't13 get the application to the person.14 Q Well, you're assuming, for instance, that if15 they were sent to the parents' address that the student16 wouldn't receive it, right?17 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Argumentative.18 BY MR. KAUL:19 Q That's a question. You can answer.20 A I think I'm also assuming that the address of21 the person was registered at is actually their parents'22 address. I mean, it also might be they don't live23 there anymore.24 Q And what would be the harm in sending it --

Page 92

1 MR. VOIGT: Objection.2 Q -- if they don't live there anymore?3 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form.4 A So if they -- so I would say there's two5 harms. One is if we send a person an application6 that's preprinted with an address that they're not7 eligible to vote from because they haven't registered8 there that sends an application that's useless.9 If we send an application to a place where a

10 person doesn't live, we waste taxpayer dollars by11 sending an application to a place where no one lives12 and could use that application because the next13 resident who's there can't use that application because14 it has the former resident's name on it.15 We're getting applications to people who have16 current addresses who can use those.17 Q I guess to be clear. There's an assumption18 that if the person has changed their mailing address19 they're no longer able to vote at the prior address,20 right?21 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form.22 A No. I think the assumption is that they're23 not -- Can you restate the question. I'm sorry.24 Q I said the assumption is that if a person



Exhibit C


Matthew Damschroder


24 (Pages 93 to 96)

Page 93

1 changed their mailing address, they are no longer2 eligible to vote at the address on their voter3 registration?4 A I think the assumption is it's less likely5 that they are no longer there and that's why we do the6 extra step of including the people who voted in the7 last two elections to try to cover the people who might8 still be there.9 Q Because with people who voted in the last two

10 elections you have all of those same concerns you just11 mentioned, right?12 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form. Vague.13 A Can you restate that question.14 Q You mentioned that you had two concerns with15 sending absentee ballot applications where a person16 has, for example, has changed their mailing address,17 right?18 A Yes.19 Q But those concerns would still apply with20 somebody who voted in the two prior elections, right?21 A I think in that instance we took the step of22 trying to err on the side of voters who had voted and23 hadn't moved, again, primarily for the three other24 reasons in Footnote 2 B, C and D that aren't related to

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1 NCOA.2 Q And why did you err on that side with respect3 to the people who voted in the prior two elections but4 not with respect to other voters?5 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Confusing.6 A I would say because I don't know who the7 others that you're talking about are and the others in8 B, C and D can be quantified in the sense that we can9 put them into the -- we know that if they voted even

10 though they're in confirmation status for that other11 reason, it's likely they can still get an application12 that can be used because their address has not changed.13 Q Why do you think that's the case?14 A Because they haven't filed a change of15 address with the post office.16 Q But a voter who's filed a change of address17 and taking the 2014 example if a voter had voted in18 2012 and filed a change of address in 2013, that voter19 would still receive an unsolicited absentee ballot20 application in 2014, right?21 A Yes.22 Q Okay. So I guess I don't understand how23 that's different from somebody who filed a change of24 address in 2013 but hadn't voted in 2012?

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1 A Can you restate that question.2 Q From your perspective in terms of whether3 someone should receive a mailing, why treat the person4 who hasn't voted in 2012 differently from the person5 who has if they both filed change of addresses in 2013?6 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form.7 A I guess I don't understand your question. I8 don't understand your question.9 Q If a voter voted in 2012, filed a change of

10 address in 2013, in 2014 that voter received an11 unsolicited absentee application at the address they12 used that's on file, correct?13 A Correct.14 Q If that same voter hadn't cast a ballot in15 2012, he wouldn't receive an unsolicited absentee16 ballot application, right?17 A Correct.18 Q So why treat those two classes of voters19 differently?20 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form.21 A Well, I don't know we consider them classes22 of voters. I think we look at it from the standpoint23 the reason that a person is in confirmation status.24 If they're in confirmation status because

Page 96

1 they filed a change of address -- oh, I understand what2 you're saying. I think the answer is, because that's3 the choice we've made.4 Q Okay. Let me ask you about fields required5 on absentee ballot application. You were just6 referring to address being one of those; is that right?7 A Yes.8 Q And that is new as a result of one of the9 provisions that's at issue in this case, correct?

10 A So my recollection is that the laws at issue11 in this case did not affect the address of the12 application.13 Q Let me go back a step.14 So for an absentee ballot to be counted it15 needs to include certain information, correct?16 A So for clarity are we talking -- so absentee17 is a two-step process. There's an absentee application18 process.19 Q Yes.20 A Where the voter has to fill out name,21 address, date of birth, form of identification and sign22 it. The board then issues the ballot and the voter23 then has an absentee identification envelope that the24 voter -- after the voter marks the ballot, puts it in



Exhibit C


Matthew Damschroder


25 (Pages 97 to 100)

Page 97

1 the envelope and the voter then needs to do name,2 address, date of birth, form of identification and3 signature.4 So as I understand your question, I don't5 believe that the -- my recollection is that the bills6 in question or the laws in question did not affect7 address as it relates to the application.8 Q I'm sorry. So on the absentee ballot9 envelope there is now a requirement that address and

10 date of birth are included when the ballot is11 submitted, right?12 A So my recollection on that is that the only13 change related to the five fields for the14 identification envelope was the date of birth.15 Q Okay. Let's just focus on date of birth for16 current purposes.17 Prior to that change in the law that we're18 discussing if a date of birth was not included on the19 identification envelope the ballot was counted,20 correct?21 A Correct.22 Q Now if a voter submits a ballot that does not23 include date of birth on the envelope it's not counted,24 correct?

Page 98

1 A If the date of birth is missing from the2 identification envelop then the Board of Elections has3 to notify the voter of the deficiency and give the4 voter an opportunity to cure it.5 Q If the voter doesn't cure it it's not6 counted, correct?7 A Correct, in the instance of the missing date8 of birth.9 Q Right.

10 What happens if the date of birth supplied is11 incorrect?12 A So my recollection is that the statute13 provides for an exception that if the year is wrong or14 if the address in the -- if the date of birth in the15 statewide provision --16 THE COURT REPORTER: Please speak slower.17 A So the exception would be, and I think this18 is in the directive, the exception would be if the year19 of birth is the part that doesn't match, I think they20 can still be counted, or if the date of birth in the21 voter file is 1/1/1800 and that's the reason it doesn't22 match because 1/1/1800 is the holding point for the23 date of birth field for people who register to vote24 before date of birth was required.

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1 Q Okay. So putting aside the 1/1/18002 situation, if a voter has the correct birth day and3 month but the wrong year that does not prevent a ballot4 from being counted, right?5 A If they have the correct date and month but6 the wrong year that's my recollection. It's all --7 it's in the directive.8 Q If the field is left blank, though, the voter9 goes into the cure process?

10 A The voter would get a notification and an11 opportunity to cure it.12 Q And does your office have a view as to13 whether or not date of birth should be a required14 field?15 A So our office has taken the position I think16 consistent with the General Assembly that there are17 five fields that are necessary data points in a modern18 electronic database world for managing voter records.19 Name, address, date of birth, identification and20 signature. Those are the same five fields that are21 used for registration. It makes sense to have those be22 the same five fields that are used to request an23 absentee as the same kind of fields pass the absentee24 in other election transactions.

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1 Q There are voters who can be identified even2 if they don't provide date of birth, correct?3 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form.4 A Well, I would answer the question by saying5 that there are voters who can't be identified without6 having the date of birth because there are scenarios7 where a person would have the same last name and the8 same last four of Social.9 Q So for that scenario to be the case it would

10 have to be a voter with the same name, right?11 A Uh-huh.12 Q And the same address?13 A So I would say from a data search and14 processing standpoint for a Board of Elections to look15 up a voter in the voter file voter boards generally16 start with the most unique identifiers they can. So17 driver's license is a great unique identifier because18 there's only one driver's license issued per driver in19 Ohio.20 When you have last four of Social that a21 person uses then you need other things to help narrow22 the field from just the people who would have one, two,23 three, four. So then you can use -- date of birth24 becomes a very helpful identifier and last name



Exhibit C


Matthew Damschroder


26 (Pages 101 to 104)

Page 101

1 becomes a very helpful identifier.2 First name is a tough identifier. Matt3 versus Matthew, John versus Jack, those kinds of4 things.5 So when you have data points, the more pieces6 of unique information that you can give, the more7 likely the board is identifying the voter in the8 records in order to issue the ballot or count the9 ballot.

10 Q So let's take the case of a voter who11 supplies everything but date of birth. That means that12 they've supplied a name that matches a name in the13 file, correct?14 A Let me back up and ask. Are we talking about15 they have supplied a driver's license for ID?16 Q Well, let me ask you this: What are the17 options for the type of ID they can supply?18 A So to request and cast an absentee they can19 do last four of Social, driver's license, or they can20 enclose a copy of a military ID or a copy of a photo21 ID, bank statement, government check, bank check,22 utility bill that shows the individual's name and23 address, which would not be a unique identifier at all.24 A copy of something would not be a unique identifier.

Page 102

1 Q So let's take driver's license number. That2 is a unique identifier you said, right?3 A Yes.4 Q But even if the person supplies the driver's5 license number and the rest of the number information6 matches, his absentee ballot won't count if he hasn't7 filled out the date of birth of field, right?8 A The voter would receive a notification.9 Q He would go into the cure process?

10 A Correct.11 Q And in that circumstance where you have the12 unique identifier of the driver's license there is no13 uncertainty as to which voter it is, correct?14 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form.15 A I would say that there's less uncertainty16 because if the signature on file doesn't match then17 there's another questionable component. But from a18 pure data standpoint there's a high level of19 certainty, yes.20 Q Well, that was the next thing I was going to21 ask. The signature is also required to match, right?22 A Yes.23 Q So I guess here's my question. Is it the24 position of the Secretary that if the name matches, the

Page 103

1 address matches, the driver's license matches, and the2 signature matches that date of birth is still required3 to match in order to make a positive identification of4 the voter?5 A So I think the position of the Secretary of6 State is the boards need to follow the law and the law7 says that date of birth is a required element unless8 the two exceptions are present.9 Q So you said your office supports this law,

10 correct?11 A Our office supports the fact that there are12 five elements that are necessary for voter listening13 incentive in an electronic database world and date of14 birth is one of them.15 Q And is it your office's position that not16 counting those ballots is the appropriate remedy if a17 field is not completed?18 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form.19 A I think our office's position is that those20 are five fields that are important that Boards of21 Elections -- the forms are designed so to provide22 voters use of the steps that are required, that there's23 a notification process that is missing and that a very,24 very small percentage of absentee ballots are not

Page 104

1 ultimately -- that a very small percentage of ballots2 are rejected.3 Q So prior to the requirement that date of4 birth be supplied how did Boards of Elections determine5 the identity of the people who cast absentee ballots?6 A By the elements excluding date of birth with7 the exception being that the prescribed form of the8 application going back as far as I know and of the9 identification envelope had a blank for date of birth

10 and so most voters provided that information anyway.11 Q Okay. So the difference now is that if they12 don't provide it they go into the cure process, right?13 A Right. And the exception now would be if14 they don't provide it they apply -- the exceptions15 don't apply, they will get a notification and an16 opportunity to cure.17 Q And now there's been additional requirement18 for provisional ballots instituted, correct?19 A Correct.20 Q Does the same logic we've just been21 discussing, the absentee context, apply to the22 provisional content?23 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form.24 A So I would say that the -- I would suggest a



Exhibit C


Matthew Damschroder


27 (Pages 105 to 108)

Page 105

1 break.2 Q That's my next suggestion.3 MR. VOIGT: Can I ask a clarification. I'm4 not sure what logic you're asking about.5 Q Do you understand the logic I was talking6 about?7 A So why don't you repeat the question since I8 interposed a suggestion to break.9 Q Okay. You were just explaining the reasons

10 that your office has taken the position that it has on11 absentee ballot -- I'm sorry -- on absentee ballot on12 identification envelopes requiring date of birth13 information, right?14 A Correct.15 Q Okay. Does your office also support the16 provisional ballot, the extra fields being required in17 a provisional ballot envelope?18 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form.19 A So our office believes, as I've testified20 earlier, that there are five elements that are21 important in maintaining updated registration records:22 Name, address, date of birth, signature, and23 identification. And so the same five fields that apply24 to voter registration to require to requesting absentee

Page 106

1 should apply to casting absentee.2 And I would add and I think our office3 supported and our office does support that in the4 provisional environment it's important because the5 provisional is a person -- the person who cast a6 provisional is primarily a person whose residency has7 changed but who didn't update their address with the8 Board of Elections, and so it particularly makes sense9 for a provisional ballot, which is a second chance

10 ballot for a registration problem, to have the same11 fields as is required for voter registration on the12 front end so that the act of completing the provisional13 ballot envelope can serve to either register the14 vote -- register the person who vote if they hadn't15 previously registered, or to update their address if16 they had not updated their address.17 In addition to in the content of the updating18 the address person, giving them an opportunity to cast19 a ballot that would count on Election Day.20 MR. KAUL: Why don't we take a break that was21 requested.22 THE WITNESS: Okay.23 (A recess was taken.)24 MR. KAUL: Let's go back on the record.

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1 Q Did you have a chance to look at the2 transcript that's Exhibit --3 A 2.4 Q 2. Thank you.5 A Yes, I skimmed through I think the first five6 pages.7 Q Okay. And just so the record is clear, page8 2 there's a very long block that begins the fourth9 double batch down, I guess. It beings with, "Thank you

10 very much." Do you see that?11 A I do.12 Q And that block is the statement of13 Secretary Husted, correct?14 A I believe that's the case, yes.15 Q Okay. And you were there when he made these16 remarks, right?17 A Yes. I was at the Presidential Commission18 meeting on September 20th, 2003, and I was on the same19 panel with the Secretary. I think it was the opening20 session.21 Q It was 2013 just for the record.22 A Oh, I'm sorry. September 20th, 2013.23 Q And does this appear to you to be an accurate24 transcription of the Secretary's remarks?

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1 A I haven't read it word-for-word but it2 appears to be.3 Q And just to be clear, his statement begin on4 page 2, all of page 4 and the beginning of page 4,5 right?6 A That appears to be the case.7 Q And then there's a block where someone says,8 "Thank you, Mr. Secretary." and then there's a9 subsequent block on page 5 that begins with, "Good

10 morning, Commissioners."11 Do you see that?12 A I do.13 Q And that block is your statement?14 A It appears to be, yes.15 Q Does that accurately quote you?16 A I believe so. Again, I haven't read it17 word-for-word.18 Q Let's set that aside.19 Before we broke I had begun asking you about20 provisional ballots. Do you remember that?21 A Yes.22 Q If a voter has changed his address and23 includes a different address than the provisional24 ballot from the one on the voting file does that ballot



Exhibit C


Matthew Damschroder


28 (Pages 109 to 112)

Page 109

1 count?2 A So if an individual voting provisional ballot3 provides an address on the provisional envelope that is4 different than the address on file for the voter, as5 long as all the other requirements are met that6 person's ballot would count.7 Q Does that automatically become a registration8 form?9 A It does now, yes.

10 Q Okay. Does the voter have to check some sort11 of box on the form?12 A I think the -- if I remember the form13 correctly, there's a space for the voter to provide14 their name, address, date of birth, required15 identification and a signature. I don't think there's16 a check box is required.17 Q And if the voter fills out four of the five18 categories you discussed before but not date of birth19 that provisional ballot is not counted, correct?20 A I'm sorry. Can you say that again.21 Q Yeah.22 If the provisional voter fills out four of23 the five required fields that you were talking about24 earlier but not the date of birth field, the ballot is

Page 110

1 not counted, correct?2 A I think similar to the absentee there are a3 couple of exceptions as it relates to date of birth,4 but subject to those exceptions the ballot would not5 count.6 Q Okay. Provisional ballot voters are not7 notified if their ballots need to be cured, right?8 A So a provisional ballot is cast by someone9 who there was a question about their eligibility either

10 because they were -- they're not in the voter roles at11 the address where the person says where they say they12 live or they were unable to produce identification in13 the form of last four of their Social or their driver's14 license or a copy of the ballot for identification.15 Under the state law the person who casts a16 provisional is allowed to cure his identification if17 they don't provide an identification at the time they18 cast the provisional, and they receive a notice at the19 time they cast the provisional of the federally20 required toll-free number that they can call to find21 out how the ballot was counted or not and the22 opportunity to cure the identification if that's not23 provided at the time the ballot is cast.24 Q All right. So there is no opportunity to

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1 cure the failure to provide a date of birth?2 A That's correct.3 Q And there's no opportunity to cure the4 failure to provide an address?5 A That's correct.6 Q And if the failure is a failure to provide an7 identification, is the voter informed that the ballot8 won't be counted for that reason?9 A I believe they're informed with the notice at

10 the time they cast the ballot.11 Q The poll workers are supposed to inform them?12 A There's a notice, I think it's called H; I13 can't remember for sure what the number is, that gives14 them the notification of the federally required15 telephone number, the toll-free contact information to16 find out if the ballot is counted or not and the17 information about what can be cured and the deadline18 for doing so.19 Q Okay. The federal number the voter can only20 obtain information about whether their ballot has been21 counted after a final determination has been made with22 respect to the ballot, right?23 A Correct.24 Q Ohio law currently limits counties to one

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1 early voting location per county, correct?2 A I think the statute says that they can have3 one location. It's the Board of Elections office4 except for they can have an alternate location from the5 Board of Elections, but the ballots that are cast at6 the alternate location Board of Elections, so just one7 location.8 Q Does your office have any -- would your9 office oppose counties having discretion to open

10 additional locations for early voting?11 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form.12 A I don't know that we've actually ever talked13 about it.14 Q So, to your knowledge, you don't have a15 position on that?16 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Asked and answered.17 BY MR. KAUL:18 Q You can answer.19 A We have not talked about it.20 Q So just to be clear. Since you haven't21 talked about it you don't have any reasons for22 supporting or opposing that policy; is that right?23 MR. VOIGT: Asked and answered again.24 A Can you ask the question again. I'm sorry.



Exhibit C


Matthew Damschroder


29 (Pages 113 to 116)

Page 113

1 Q Yeah.2 You haven't had any discussions about reasons3 that you would either support or oppose counties having4 discretion to open additional early voting locations?5 MR. VOIGT: The same objection.6 A We haven't talked about it and any7 conversations about it would have to be -- whether to8 support or oppose or anything in between would9 obviously be subject to actual legislative proposal,

10 but to my knowledge no one's ever offered that.11 Q I want to ask you a couple of questions about12 consolidated books at split precincts.13 A Okay.14 Q Your office has recommended that counties15 that have split precincts use consolidated pollbooks;16 is that right?17 A In the past our office has recommended that18 Boards of Elections consolidate their pollbooks in a19 multi-precinct location so that a voter presenting20 themselves to sign a pollbook gets in line based on the21 first letter of their last name as opposed to knowing22 that they have to check in in the northwest corner of23 the gym for Precinct 2 as opposed to the east part of24 the gym for Precinct B or C or whatever.

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1 So, yes, our office has recommended that, and2 in our election official manual that's currently online3 for public comment we're proposing making that a4 directive that all counties do that beginning with next5 year.6 Q Okay. Beginning with the 2016 election?7 A It would be beginning with the primary8 election in 2016, yes.9 Q Okay. And what's the process for going from

10 where you are now to making it a directive?11 A Once the public comment period for the12 proposed chapters of the election committee are closed13 for public comment then we would issue a directive14 saying here's the election official manual. That would15 be the instructions of the Secretary of State.16 Q And when do you anticipate that a final17 decision will be on that issue?18 A I don't know for sure but it would be -- it19 would have to be more than 90 days before the March20 presidential election. We can't issue a permanent21 directive in a certain window.22 Q Do you anticipate that that directive will be23 issued?24 A I do.

Page 115

1 Q I'm going to show you a few more exhibits.2 This will be Exhibit 4.3 (Exhibit No. 4 was marked for identification.)4 Q Have you had a chance to review that?5 A Yes.6 Q So let me start with the email that was first7 in time which begins on page 2. Is that a final8 version of a press release?9 A I can't tell from the email.

10 Q It's either a draft press release or a final11 press release, right?12 A I believe so.13 By press release I'd say it appears to be a14 guest column as opposed to a press release.15 Q In the top right of that email it says, "For16 immediate release." Do you see that?17 A Yes.18 Q Is that on the guest columns even if they're19 not released broadly?20 A Yes.21 Q And how would you describe this guest column?22 A I would describe it by saying that it is the23 Secretary communicating to the voters in Ohio that it24 is easy to vote in Ohio.

Page 116

1 Q And this is informational in nature. Would2 you agree with that?3 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form.4 A It does provide information, yes.5 Q And it provides information about ways in6 which individuals can vote specifically, right?7 A Yes. After the title is "Voting is easy in8 Ohio" it talks about three specific options. The first9 being vote by mail. The second is voting early

10 in person. The third is voting on Election Day.11 Q And this email is from Matthew McClellan,12 correct?13 A Yes.14 Q Who is Matthew McClellan?15 A He is presently our director of16 communications.17 Q And at the time of this email was he the18 press secretary?19 A Yes, I believe that was his title. Yes.20 Q All right. Now, the next email in time which21 is on pages 1 and 2 is from Maggie Ostrowski, correct?22 A Correct.23 Q Did I pronounce that right?24 A Ostrowski, yes.



Exhibit C


Matthew Damschroder


30 (Pages 117 to 120)

Page 117

1 Q And who is she?2 A She was our communications director at the3 time.4 Q So she would have been Mr. McClellan's direct5 supervisor?6 A Yes.7 Q And her email describes possible places to8 send this guest column, correct?9 A Yes.

10 Q And first she refers to boards. She says,11 "What do you think about boards?" Do you see that?12 A Yes.13 Q And then she says, "Or does that just poke14 bears?"15 A Yes.16 Q Do you mean what she meant by that?17 A I do not.18 Q And then she describes poll worker list,19 right?20 A Yes.21 Q And then "Legislators" and in parens she22 writes, "All or just Rs?" Do you see that?23 A I do.24 Q And by just Rs she meant just Republicans,

Page 118

1 right?2 A I would think so.3 Q Is there any reason that you can think of why4 this would just be sent to Republican legislators?5 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form.6 A I don't know what Maggie was intending to ask7 with that.8 Q All right. And just briefly, the people on9 the list in the To line include you, right?

10 A Yes. I'm sorry. For the Maggie email of11 March 12 at 11:06?12 Q Yes.13 A Yes, I'm included in the "To."14 Q And then Craig Forbes. Who is that?15 A At the time he was our legislative director.16 Q And Halle Pelger we just talked about before17 was the Chief of Staff at the time?18 A Yes.19 Q And Matt Materson you just explained. And20 who is Joel Fleeman?21 A Actually, Matt McClellan.22 Q Oh, I'm sorry.23 A Matt Materson was the Deputy Chief of Staff24 and IT director at the time.

Page 119

1 Q And who is Joel Fleeman?2 A Joel Fleeman was the military voting3 coordinator and kind of kept our list of people who4 wanted to be contacted about things in the office.5 Q Okay. And then Halle Pelger responds to6 Maggie Ostrowski's email, correct?7 A Yes.8 Q And then Joel Fleeman sends another response;9 is that right?

10 A Yes.11 Q And he lists some groups that he would send12 this to. Do you see that?13 A I think he says, "Here's the groups that may14 be good to send this to."15 Q Do you know what groups ultimately received16 this communication?17 A I do not.18 Q Would you agree that most of the groups19 listed in Mr. Fleeman's email are conservative groups?20 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form.21 A I don't know if that's necessarily the case.22 Q One of the entries is actually conservative23 groups, right?24 A Yes, it is.

Page 120

1 Q And YR refers to young Republicans, right?2 A I don't know for sure.3 Q Well, what's your understanding?4 A I would presume that's the case but I don't5 know for sure.6 Q I think Tea Party you would agree is a7 conservative group?8 A Yes.9 Q Now, minority groups does that refer do you

10 know to racial minority groups?11 MR. VOIGT: Object to the form.12 A I don't know for sure.13 Q Do you know why Mr. Fleeman selected the14 organizations that he selected here?15 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form.16 A I do not.17 Q And you also don't know you said who this was18 sent to ultimately?19 A Correct.20 Q Let me next ask you about a document we'll21 mark as Exhibit 5.22 (Exhibit No. 5 was marked for identification.)23 Q First of all, does this appear to you to be a24 printout of an article from the Columbus Dispatch?



Exhibit C


Matthew Damschroder


31 (Pages 121 to 124)

Page 121

1 A It appears to be, yes, from Sunday, August2 the 19th of 2012.3 Q Are you familiar with this article?4 A I don't recall it necessarily but I haven't5 had a chance to read the whole thing.6 Q Do you know a name guy by the name of7 Doug Preisse?8 A Preisse.9 Q Preisse. I'm sorry.

10 A Yes, I do.11 Q All right. Who is Doug Preisse?12 A He is a friend of mine and chairman of the13 Franklin County Republican Party and I think -- but14 he's on the Board of Elections of Franklin County, but15 I can't remember if he is currently chairman or was16 chairman.17 Q Is he still on the board, do you know?18 A Yes, I believe so.19 Q And he was appointed by Secretary Husted?20 A He was first appointed by Secretary Brunner.21 He has been recommended for re-appointment by Secretary22 Husted.23 Q Okay. I would like to direct your attention24 to the second page of this document. The fifth full

Page 122

1 paragraph begins with quote, "I guess I really actually2 feel..."3 Do you see that?4 A I do.5 Q Now, this article quotes Mr. Preisse as6 saying, "I guess I really actually feel we shouldn't7 contort the voting process to accommodate the urban -8 read African-American - voter-turnout machine."9 Let's be fair and reasonable."

10 Do you see that?11 A I do.12 Q Were you aware of this statement -- was your13 office aware of this statement at the time?14 MR. VOIGT: At what time?15 MR. KAUL: In 2012.16 A My recollection is we became aware of it when17 it was printed in the paper or when -- it's also18 possible; I don't know for sure, the reporter called19 before he ran the story to ask -- to tell us. But20 that's the first time I think we had knowledge of that21 statement was when it was in the paper.22 Q Okay. This statement drew some additional23 press attention at the time; is that right?24 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form.

Page 123

1 A I think Doug's quote has been circulated,2 yes.3 Q Has anyone in your office spoken with4 Mr. Preisse about this quote?5 A Not that I know of.6 Q Was any action taken with him with respect to7 this quote?8 A Not that I know of.9 Q Does your office endorse the views in the

10 quote?11 A No, we do not.12 Q Let me direct your attention to the next page13 of this article. The fifth full photograph down begins14 with, "But from a political..."15 Do you see that?16 A I do.17 Q It says -- and the full paragraph says,"But18 from a political and perhaps cultural standpoint not19 all absentee ballots are created equal. Republicans20 are more likely to mail their absentee ballots, while21 Democrats, (and African-Americans) prefer to cast their22 absentee ballots in person."23 Do you see that?24 A I do.

Page 124

1 Q Is that consistent with your office's2 experience?3 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form.4 Are you asking him to provide some type of5 expert testimony here?6 MR. KAUL: I'm asking him what his experience7 is with who casts absentee ballots as a representative8 of the Secretary of State's Office.9 MR. VOIGT: He's already testified that his

10 office does not maintain that information.11 BY MR. KAUL:12 Q Well, you can answer if you know.13 A Can you reask the question. I'm sorry.14 Q Yeah.15 Is that paragraph I just read is that16 consistent with your office's experience?17 A It appears to -- I would say that's a18 conclusion of the author of the news story.19 I don't think we have that I recall firm data20 on who does what when from a party standpoint, because21 in Ohio as you know, a person does not affiliate with a22 political party. They become affiliated with a23 political party by the act of casting a ballot in a24 primary election.



Exhibit C


Matthew Damschroder


32 (Pages 125 to 128)

Page 125

1 So the majority of people in Ohio, voters in2 Ohio even though they may personally affiliate with one3 party or another or vote consistently with one party or4 another aren't affiliated for purposes of voter file5 with one political party or another.6 Because they can change parties from primary7 to primary it's kind of hard to know with certainty8 that that segment of people who do have party9 affiliation what their party is because they can

10 change.11 Q Okay. So is it right that your office does12 not have a view as to whether Republicans are more13 likely than Democrats to cast absentee ballots by mail?14 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form.15 A I don't think we have a policy standpoint on16 whether people are more likely or not to vote depending17 on who they're likely to vote for or the party they18 affiliate with.19 Q When you say from a policy standpoint do you20 mean you don't have a --21 A Our office doesn't have a position on that.22 We don't track that data. We don't know.23 Q Going down two paragraphs there's a reference24 to a study by Franklin County -- the Franklin County

Page 126

1 Board of Elections. Do you see that?2 A Yes.3 Q Are you familiar with that study?4 A Not that I recall.5 Q The following paragraph indicates that,6 "Ballots cast after-hours on weekdays, on weekends and7 on a Monday before the election came predominately from8 black and Democratic voters."9 Is that right?

10 A I'm sorry, where are you? I lost you.11 Q The two paragraphs. One begins with "A study12 by the Franklin County..."13 A Yes.14 Q And the next is, "And those late ballots..."15 A Yes. Okay.16 Q And that indicates that, "Ballots cast17 after-hours on week days, on weekends or on Monday18 before the election were cast predominately by black19 and Democratic voters." Is that right?20 A That's what it says here.21 Q Was your office aware of this study in 2012?22 A I don't believe so.23 Q Is your office aware of that study now?24 A I don't think I've ever seen a copy of it.

Page 127

1 Q Do you recall if your office was aware of2 this news article?3 A Yes, we would have seen it.4 (Exhibit No. 6 was marked for identification.)5 Q All right. Next I have Exhibit 6. And this6 is a string of emails among members of the Secretary of7 State's Office, correct?8 A Yes, it appears to be.9 Q First let me ask you about the very top email

10 on the first page.11 A Yes.12 Q And Ms. Pelger writes -- she asks whether13 something should be included in a response article14 about waiting in line in Ohio being a choice. Do you15 see that?16 A Yes.17 Q Now, first she says, "Because Mags, you and18 said it and separately I just heard JAH say it."19 Do you see that?20 A Yes.21 Q And do you understand Mags to be a reference22 to Maggie Ostrowski?23 A Yes.24 Q And do you understand JAH to be a reference

Page 128

1 to Secretary Husted?2 A Yes.3 Q Do you know what she meant by about waiting4 in line in Ohio being a choice?5 A I don't know for sure. I would presume that6 it's because of the multiple opportunities to7 participate as were referenced in the Secretary's8 draft, that there's a vote by mail option and there's a9 voter early absentee option in addition to Election

10 Day.11 Q And you would agree that at least some voters12 who vote early in person absentee have to wait in line,13 right?14 A I don't know about have to wait in line15 but -- given the number of days and hours, but there16 would be some circumstances where a person presenting17 themselves to vote in person absentee before Election18 Day may wait in line, yes.19 Q Okay. And is this the view of your office20 that anyone who waits in line in Ohio does so by21 choice?22 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form.23 A I think my previous testimony was that our24 office's position was there are multiple ways to vote



Exhibit C


Matthew Damschroder


33 (Pages 129 to 132)

Page 129

1 in Ohio and that it's easy to vote here.2 Q Do you have a position on whether waiting in3 line to vote is a choice?4 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form. Asked and5 answered.6 A Can you ask the question.7 Q Yeah.8 Does your office have a position on whether9 waiting in line to vote in Ohio is a choice?

10 MR. VOIGT: You heard the answer to the11 question.12 BY MR. KAUL:13 Q Was the answer yes or no?14 MR. VOIGT: He answered the question.15 BY MR. KAUL:16 Q Was the answer yes or no?17 MR. VOIGT: He answered the question.18 BY MR. KAUL:19 Q Can you answer it?20 MR. VOIGT: He already answered the question.21 BY MR. KAUL:22 Q You can answer.23 MR. VOIGT: Do you want him to repeat his24 prior answer?

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1 A What is the question?2 MR. VOIGT: Can I ask the court reporter to3 read the witness's answer to the question or the same4 question that was just read.5 (Prior requested questions and answers read.)6 BY MR. KAUL:7 Q And I am entitled to a yes or no answer to8 that question and you can give it in whatever context9 you think is appropriate.

10 MR. VOIGT: I object to that.11 Let me be clear. He can answer the question12 however he feels it's appropriate. Some questions are13 not yes or no. You're asking the same question again14 and he's already provided an answer. You're asking for15 another answer. So I don't know where you're going16 with this but he's already provided an answer to your17 question.18 BY MR. KAUL:19 Q That's fine. You can answer the question,20 though.21 A So our office's position is there are22 multiple ways to vote in Ohio and it's easy to vote23 here.24 Q Do you think that's responsive to my

Page 131

1 question?2 A I do.3 Q Okay. Next I'll ask you about Exhibit 7.4 (Exhibit No. 7 was marked for identification.)5 Q Now, this document contains starting on page6 2 a press release from the Democratic Leadership urging7 Government Kasich to veto Senate Bills 205 and 238; is8 that right?9 A That appears to be the case, yes.

10 Q All right. And S.B. 238 is the provision11 that eliminated golden week; is that right?12 A That's my recollection.13 Q At the bottom of that page there's a14 paragraph that begins with "Further..." Do you see15 that?16 A Yes.17 Q And it says that, "The impact of S.B. 238's18 cuts to early voting..." And that means the19 elimination of golden week, right?20 A I believe that's the case, yes.21 Q It says, "will fall disproportionately on22 women, low-income voters, minority voters and elderly23 voters."24 Do you see that?

Page 132

1 A I do.2 Q Now, this was forwarded to Matthew McClellan3 for comment, right?4 A It appears so, yes, on February the 20th of5 '14 at 1:25.6 Q So your office was aware of this press7 release, correct?8 A Yes.9 Q And did you assess the accuracy of that

10 statement?11 A I don't know that we did, no.12 Q Do you have a view as to whether the13 elimination of same day registration falls14 disproportionately on women, low-income voters,15 minority voters and elderly voters?16 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form. He already17 testified that the Secretary's office does not maintain18 demographic data.19 BY MR. KAUL:20 Q You can answer the question.21 A Our office's position is that it does not.22 Q That it does not disproportionately affect23 those groups you said?24 A Correct.



Exhibit C


Matthew Damschroder


34 (Pages 133 to 136)

Page 133

1 Q What's the basis for that position?2 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form.3 A Well, as I said earlier, we don't track that4 data.5 The basis of that would be that my6 recollection is that in the previous General Assembly7 there was a House Bill that was introduced by two8 Democratic members, both in Franklin County, that I9 believe also eliminated golden week, proposed to

10 eliminate golden week.11 It surprised me that those Democratic members12 would introduce something that would fall13 disproportionately on low-income voters, women voters14 and elderly voters.15 Q Why would that surprise you?16 A Because knowing those two people as I do17 those would be groups that those two representatives18 would be particularly careful to protect.19 Q Okay. So it's the official view of the20 Secretary of State that these -- that the elimination21 of golden week does not disproportionately fall on22 women, low-income voters, minority voters and elderly23 voters?24 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Asked and answered.

Page 134

1 MR. KAUL: We've now gotten two different2 answers, right?3 MR. VOIGT: No, I think the answer has been4 clear.5 A So I think our office's position is that we6 don't track this data. We don't know as our office,7 but that this is a proposal that had been through two8 General Assemblies supported by members of both9 political parties.

10 Q S.B. 238 is not supported by both political11 parties, right?12 A I'm sorry. Correct. But in the previous13 General Assembly different legislation that eliminated14 golden week was supported by both political parties.15 Q And was that all that previous legislation16 did?17 A I don't recall anything that the previous18 legislation did from the earlier General Assembly.19 Q Okay. The next sentence in that paragraph20 says, "During the 2012 and 2008 elections in Cuyahoga21 County, African-American voters were 20 times more22 likely than white voters to utilize in-person early23 voting and 75 percent in-person early voters were24 African-American."

Page 135

1 Do you see that?2 A I do.3 Q Did you do any investigation into that4 finding?5 A No.6 Q Do you have a view on the accuracy of that7 finding?8 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form.9 A I don't.

10 Q All right. The next exhibit is Exhibit 8.11 (Exhibit No. 8 was marked for identification.)12 Q And this is another email string among13 employees of your office, correct?14 A It appears to be.15 Q And this exchange pertains to a speech that16 Secretary Husted was going to be giving to county17 election officials, right?18 A I don't know.19 Q Let me rephrase the question.20 This pertains to the remarks that21 Secretary Husted would be giving; is that right?22 A That appears to be the case.23 Q All right. And I would like to direct your24 attention to the third page of this document and

Page 136

1 there's a signature at the bottom of that page from2 Matthew Materson, correct?3 A Yes.4 Q All right. And this document contains edits5 that he has made to a draft of this script prepared by6 Maggie Ostrowski, right?7 A It appears to be somebody's edits. I would8 presume that since the earlier version doesn't contain9 it that Matt made these edits.

10 Q And about half way down the page there's a11 paragraph that begins with, "By any measure..."12 Do you see that?13 A Yes.14 Q And the first sentence says, "By any measure15 it is easy to vote in Ohio." Right?16 A Yes.17 Q And with the cross-out language it says, "We18 are a leader in voter access." And then it says "(Show19 slide.)" Right?20 A Yes.21 Q And that sentence he deleted the language22 after "We are a leader in voter access and we want to23 keep it that way!"24 Is that right?



Exhibit C


Matthew Damschroder


35 (Pages 137 to 140)

Page 137

1 A Yes.2 Q Do you know why he deleted that language?3 MR. VOIGT: Objection.4 MR. KAUL: What's the objection?5 MR. VOIGT: You're asking him to speculate on6 somebody who --7 MR. KAUL: He's a 30(b)(6) witness.8 MR. VOIGT: But you didn't provide this to us9 beforehand or we had no notice you would be asking

10 about the state of mind of Matt Masterson.11 I don't know how you possibly can ask a12 30(b)(6) witness to define what Matt Masterson was13 thinking at the time he did this, assuming he even did14 this.15 MR. KAUL: This is a communication involving16 provisions at issues, which is one of the topics that17 was noticed, and obviously to the extent the witness18 doesn't know the answer he can testify to that.19 MR. VOIGT: I would also note that I don't20 know what this numbering is at the bottom. This does21 not appear to be a document that we produced in this22 litigation and I don't know where you guys got this23 from. But to the extent you haven't turned over24 documents which you received from a public records

Page 138

1 request for other sources I would hereby request those2 documents to be produced.3 MR. KAUL: This is a document that was4 produced in litigation that was numbered SEC 0003020 at5 the beginning of the page. The Bates stamp printed out6 funny, that's true.7 MR. VOIGT: Okay. So the Bates stamp was8 removed at the bottom of the page?9 MR. KAUL: I think it printed funny. I don't

10 think it was intentionally removed.11 MR. COLUMBO: I don't know. We printed them12 out that way.13 MR. KAUL: And I apologize for that.14 Q So do you know why Mr. Masterson deleted that15 sentence?16 A I do not know. I do not.17 Q And it specifically highlighted as evidence18 of that that voting starts 35 days before an election,19 right?20 A Yes, that's the first bullet point.21 Q And that is no longer true, correct?22 A Correct.23 Q And in the first bullet point he also deleted24 the sentence, "Including during some weekend and

Page 139

1 evening hours."2 Do you see that?3 A I do.4 Q And that was deleted as well, right?5 A Yes.6 Q Do you know why he deleted that clause?7 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form.8 A I do not know.9 Q There's a second bullet that then refers to

10 the fact that Secretary Husted sent an absentee ballot11 request form to every voter in Ohio, right?12 A Yes.13 Q And as we discussed, there are some14 exceptions to that, right?15 A Correct.16 Q And then the third bullet there's deleted17 language that originally said, "The effect of these18 policies? We had record turnout prior to Election19 Day."20 Do you see that?21 A I do.22 Q Do you know why those two sentences were23 deleted?24 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form.

Page 140

1 A I do not.2 Q Do you believe that those two sentences are3 accurate?4 MR. VOIGT: Objection. Form.5 A The two sentences that are struck out?6 Q Yes.7 A I do not remember whether we had record8 turnout on Election Day.9 Q Actually it says prior to Election Day,

10 right?11 A Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah. I don't remember for12 sure what turnout was before Election Day or on13 Election Day in 2012 compared to other elections. My14 recollection is that we had more absentee ballots cast15 in '12 than '08 but that overall participation was down16 statewide, but I don't know whether that was for sure.17 MR. KAUL: I'm going to ask that we take a18 very brief break so I can just take a look at my notes.19 I think we're just about done.20 MR. VOIGT: Thank you.21 (A recess was taken.)22 MR. KAUL: Just briefly going back on the23 record. As I mentioned to you, I don't have any24 further questions.



Exhibit C


Matthew Damschroder


36 (Pages 141 to 143)

Page 141

1 Do you have any questions?2 MR. VOIGT: I have no additional questions at3 this time.4 MR. KAUL: Thank you.5 MR. VOIGT: We would like to read it.6 - - -7 Thereupon, at 1:17 p.m. on Tuesday,8 October 20, 2015, the deposition was concluded.9 - - -

101112131415161718192021222324

Page 142

1 CERTIFICATE2 STATE OF OHIO :

COUNTY OF FRANKLIN :34 I, MATTHEW DAMSCHRODER, do hereby certify5 that I have read the deposition given on Tuesday,6 October 20, 2015, that together with the correction7 page attached hereto noting changes in form or8 substance, if any, it is true and correct.9

___________________________________10 MATTHEW DAMSCHRODER1112 I do hereby certify that the foregoing13 deposition of MATTHEW DAMSCHRODER was submitted to the14 witness for reading and signing; that after he had15 stated to the undersigned Notary Public that he had16 read and examined his deposition, he signed the same in17 my presence on the _______ day of _____________, 2015.1819 ______________________________

NOTARY PUBLIC - STATE OF OHIO20 My Commission Expires:21 _________________, ______.222324

Page 143

1 CERTIFICATE2

STATE OF OHIO :3 SS:

COUNTY OF FRANKLIN :4

I, Diane L Schad, a Professional Reporter5 and Notary Public in and for the State of Ohio, duly

commissioned and qualified, do hereby certify that the6 within-named MATTHEW DAMSCHRODER was sworn to testify

to the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the7 truth in the cause aforesaid; that the deposition then

given by him was by me reduced to stenotype in the8 presence of said witness; that the foregoing is a true

and correct transcript of the deposition so given by9 him; that the deposition was taken at the time and

place in the caption specified and was completed10 without adjournment; and that I am in no way related to

or employed by any attorney or party hereto or11 financially interested in the action; and I am not, nor

is the court reporting firm with which I am affiliated,12 under a contract as defined in Civil Rule 28(D)

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my13 hand and affixed my seal of office at Columbus, Ohio on

this 25th day of October, 201514

_________________15 DIANE L SCHAD

NOTARY PUBLIC - STATE OF OHIO1617 My Commission Expires: June 1, 202018 - - -192021222324



Exhibit C




Exhibit C


405 Madison Ave., Suite 900Toledo, OH 43604

Local419-241-2070

Toll Free888-419-2070

www.seagatereporting.com



Exhibit D


de6bbd8b-b401-4870-b5f2-09547b766f30Electronically signed by Chandra Perry (401-386-936-5818)

SeaGate Reporting Service, Inc.405 Madison Ave., Suite 900, Toledo, OH 43604

419-241-2070 Fax: 419-241-4718 888-419-2070

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF OHIO

EASTERN DIVISION

OHIO DEMOCRATIC PARTY, : et al., : Case No: : 2:15-CV-1802 Plaintiffs, : : v. : Judge Watson : JON HUSTED, et al., : : Magistrate Judge King Defendants. : :

- - -

DEPOSITION OF JOHN F. WEBER

- - -

Date taken: Wednesday, October 21, 2015

Time: 8:57 a.m.

Location: PNC Building Executive

Conference Room

405 Madison Avenue, 4th Floor

Toledo, Ohio

Court Reporter: Chandra N. Whetstone

- - -



Exhibit D




419-241-2070 Fax: 419-241-4718 888-419-2070

2 (Pages 2 to 5)

Page 2

I N D E X Deposition of JOHN F. WEBER: Page/Line Examination By Ms. Cherry................... 3 17 Examination By Ms. Pierce................... 69 18 Examination By Mr. Whitmore................. 71 8 - - - E X H I B I T S Page/Line Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1 marked................ 21 24 - - - O B J E C T I O N S Entered by Page/Line

Ms. Pierce.................................. 16 6 Ms. Pierce.................................. 25 3 Ms. Pierce.................................. 27 1 Ms. Pierce.................................. 30 4 Ms. Pierce.................................. 32 6 Ms. Pierce.................................. 35 10 Ms. Pierce.................................. 35 18 Ms. Pierce.................................. 42 2 Ms. Pierce.................................. 45 15 Ms. Pierce.................................. 66 20

- - -

Page 3

1 APPEARANCES:2 On behalf of the Plaintiffs:3 PERKINS COIE LLP:

Ceridwen B. Cherry4 700 13th Street, NW

Washington, DC 20005 (202)654-63215

On behalf of the Defendants:6

OHIO ATTORNEY GENERAL'S OFFICE:7 Sarah E. Pierce, Assistant Attorney General

Brodi J. Conover, Assistant Attorney General8 30 East Broad Street, 16th Floor

Columbus, Ohio 43215 (614)466-28729

On behalf of the Witness:10

FULTON COUNTY PROSECUTING ATTORNEY'S OFFICE:11 Jon H. Whitmore

152 South Fulton Street, Suite 24012 Wauseon, Ohio 43567 (419)337-924013 - - -14 JOHN F. WEBER,15 being first duly sworn, as hereinafter certified,16 testified and said as follows:17 EXAMINATION18 BY MS. CHERRY:19 Q Good morning.20 A Good morning.21 Q My name is Ceridwen Cherry. I'm from the law firm22 Perkins Coie and I represent the Plaintiffs in this23 case, which is the Ohio Democratic Party versus24 Husted. Could you please state your full name for25 the record.

Page 4

1 A John Frederick Weber.2 Q And spell your last name, please.3 A W-e-b-e-r.4 Q Have you ever been deposed before?5 A No.6 Q So let's start just with some ground rules.7 First, I know it's a really big room. So if you8 can't hear me, ask me to speak up, and I will do9 the same for you. We're going to try to make a

10 clear record for the court reporter. So I'll ask11 questions, please wait for me to finish my question12 before you answer, and I'll do the same for you.13 Please give audible answers rather than gestures or14 saying uh-huh or -- just so the record is clear.15 Does that sound fair to you?16 A Yes.17 Q Great. If you don't understand any question that18 I ask, please just ask me to state it again, and19 I'll try to clarify it. If you don't ask for20 clarification, I'll assume that you understand my21 question; is that fair?22 A Okay.23 Q If you need to take a break at any time, please24 just let me know. My plan is to probably go for25 about an hour at a time and than take a break. But

Page 5

1 if you need a break before then, just let me know.2 Same rule for anyone else. Is there any reason why3 you cannot give full and truthful testimony today?4 A No.5 Q What did you do to prepare for today's deposition?6 A I talked with the prosecutor and Mr. Whitmore,7 researched some numbers of the -- at our office at8 the Board of Elections, read over my declaration9 again.

10 Q And have you read the complaint in this case?11 A Not entirely.12 Q What portions of it have you read?13 A I have skimmed it.14 Q Is that everything that you did to prepare for15 today?16 A Yes.17 Q Where are you currently employed?18 A I'm retired.19 Q You're retired. Okay. And if I understand20 correctly, you are on the Fulton County Board of21 Elections?22 A Correct.23 Q And how long have you been a member?24 A About five and a half years.25 Q And how did you get appointed to the board?



Exhibit D




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3 (Pages 6 to 9)

Page 6

1 A I was recommend by the Republican Party and2 confirmed by Secretary Husted.3 Q And are you in your --4 A Actually, it was Secretary Brunner at the time.5 Q And are you in the first term on the Board of6 Elections?7 A Second.8 Q Second. Do you have any other experience in9 election administration?

10 A No.11 Q And you mentioned you're retired. What did you do12 before you retired?13 A I was a human resources director and a plant14 manager.15 Q Where?16 A A company called McCowan Corporation, which is now17 long gone.18 Q And was that in Fulton County?19 A It was.20 Q And you mentioned you had been appointed by the21 Republican Party. Are you a member of the22 Republican Party?23 A I am.24 Q And do you hold a position of leadership?25 A I am the Vice Chairman of the Fulton County

Page 7

1 Republican Party.2 Q And how long have you held that position?3 A Boy, I'm guessing six or seven years probably.4 Q And have you held other positions in the party?5 A I have been on the Central Committee longer than6 that, but not -- no office in the party.7 Q What do you mean by the Central Committee?8 A Central Committee is an elected committee that's9 chosen in each county to represent the Republican

10 Party. There's a representative basically from11 each precinct, from each voting precinct, and they12 come together and represent their precinct in the13 party functions.14 Q So it's, like, a statewide organization?15 A Countywide.16 Q Countywide. I'm sorry, I misunderstood. Are you17 familiar with the term Golden Week?18 A Yes.19 Q And what does that mean to you?20 A It means a week early in the old early voting21 process where they were able to register and vote22 at the same time.23 Q And when Golden Week was in place, how many people24 used Golden Week in Fulton County?25 A Very, very few. I would have to go back and check

Page 8

1 exactly, but very, very few ever used Golden Week.2 Q Just sort of as a ballpark, less than 50?3 A Clearly less than 50.4 Q Less than ten?5 A I can't say that. I really just -- I don't have6 enough knowledge to say that.7 Q And by used Golden Week, you mean registered and8 voted during that time?9 A I would say -- I'm trying to remember exactly the

10 election that we had Golden Week last time. It was11 probably the presidential.12 Q So 2012?13 A That would be my -- that would be my assumption.14 So we would then -- I would have been talking about15 early voters in general, but in terms of16 registering and voting in Fulton County on the17 Golden Week, then I would say, you know, clearly18 less than 20.19 Q Are you aware of other counties that had more20 people registering and voting during Golden Week?21 A I'm sure. I mean, Lucas County is right down the22 road from Fulton. So I'm sure Lucas would have had23 more.24 Q Are you -- do you speak with the election25 officials in Lucas County?

Page 9

1 A Not often, no, not often.2 Q Did you discuss Golden Week with them at all?3 A No. Lucas has a sordid past.4 Q What do you mean by that?5 A On their Board of Elections, it's had a lot of6 problems. So we generally don't -- our contact7 with Lucas are on issues that we share with Lucas.8 In other words, there are school districts that9 fall between Fulton and Lucas, other voting

10 districts. So that's basically what our contact11 with Lucas is, to combine those vote totals.12 Q Is it convenient for a voter to be able to13 register or update their registration at the same14 time that they cast an early ballot?15 A It's convenient to do that a lot of times, you16 know. I mean, we have opportunities at the fair,17 both the Democrat and Republican booths allow you18 to register. We have opportunities all over the19 place. The BMV offers you opportunities to20 register. So it's pretty convenient to register in21 Ohio.22 Q How much did the Fulton County Board of Elections23 budget for Golden Week?24 A I couldn't tell you that number. Our departmental25 budget runs about $325,000 a year. It's a very



Exhibit D


JReynolds

Highlight



419-241-2070 Fax: 419-241-4718 888-419-2070

4 (Pages 10 to 13)

Page 10

1 small department.2 Q Do you know if you requested additional funds3 for -- to cover Golden Week?4 A We would have had a larger budget that year,5 assuming again that that's 2012, because it was a6 presidential year for us. We would have not7 specified Golden Week versus something. It's a8 presidential year, we're going to have a lot more9 activity so -- and the whole early voting process,

10 we would have certainly included the additional11 funds in that budget to take the whole early voting12 process.13 Q When you said you request additional funds for14 early voting, what are those funds spent on?15 A For early voting in Fulton County in general.16 They would be machine maintenance, some ballot17 preparation, although not a lot, time for people.18 Although, again, not much, because our staff is19 exempt. And so, you know, when you say early20 voting, our whole process for early voting would21 be -- would include Golden Week, let me put it that22 way. You know, we wouldn't separate Golden Week23 from --24 Q Did you hire additional staff for early voting?25 A No, we did not.

Page 11

1 Q And you said one of the costs was machine --2 A Let me just clarify that a second. We have a3 couple of part-time employees, which we would use4 more by a few hours, not a lot, but we would use a5 little more.6 Q And how many part-time staff?7 A Two.8 Q Two. Okay. And how many hours do they work?9 A You know, I'm guessing that they were a little bit

10 more than their normal, but not much, maybe11 another -- well, I don't know. I don't know that12 as a fact so I'm not going to --13 Q And you said their normal. What hours do they14 work normally?15 A At the time, if we're talking about back in 2012,16 they would have been what we would have called17 temporary part time so they would have been called18 in for certain functions. Okay. So they would not19 have had a regular schedule. Now, they have a more20 regular schedule.21 Q What's that regular schedule now?22 A They work two days a week each.23 Q And how many hours on those days?24 A I'm thinking it's four.25 Q And do you know what they're paid per hour?

Page 12

1 A No, not off the top of my head.2 Q You mentioned machine maintenance as one of the3 costs?4 A We have to set up machines and we have to make5 sure we run what they call L & A testing, logic and6 accuracy testing on the machines. We have to make7 sure that the battery backups are working in case8 there is a power failure, et cetera, et cetera.9 And then the machines have to be set up to handle

10 whatever the early vote is.11 Q Just so we're clear for the record, when we --12 when you say machines, what do you mean by that?13 A The DREs, the voting machines. We call them DREs,14 which are direct-recording something.15 Q I think it's direct-recording electronic.16 A Touchscreen DREs.17 Q And how many DREs does Fulton County have?18 A We have, I'm saying -- I'm going to say around19 probably 100, 120.20 Q And how many polling places are there in Fulton21 County?22 A There are 30 -- I think 36 precincts, but there's23 several that are multiple voting locations. I24 think there are 18, but again that's my estimation,25 I have not looked that up. When I talk about 18,

Page 13

1 I'm talking about multiple voting locations,2 multiple precincts.3 Q So there are 18 polling places and some of those4 would have more than one precinct?5 A That would be, again, my estimation.6 Q And with these 120 machines, how does Fulton7 County decide to allocate them between the polling8 places on Election Day?9 A Basically, we're looking at the past history of

10 the usage of the machines, plus the splits in a11 precinct. For example, the precinct that I12 generally vote in, there's a split in the school13 districts. In fact, there are three different14 school districts in that precinct. And so the15 precinct has to have some machines available for16 the Evergreen School District, the Swanton School17 District, and I think the other one is18 Pike-Delta-York. So you know what I'm saying? So19 we would have to have at least three machines there20 because currently they're set up differently.21 Q And on Election Day, are all of those22 approximately 120 machines used or are some ever23 held back?24 A There are a few that are -- a couple that are held25 back for spares in case there's an emergency. We



Exhibit D




419-241-2070 Fax: 419-241-4718 888-419-2070

5 (Pages 14 to 17)

Page 14

1 don't cut it that close. You know, we always have2 a few that we can run out if one fails, sure.3 Q And when did you -- did Fulton County purchase4 their DREs?5 A Before I was on. I'm saying the initial round in6 Ohio, the State of Ohio helped the counties7 purchase those, and that's when.8 Q So you said you --9 A I'm guessing -- let's see, I'm guessing maybe '08,

10 something like that. Whenever the State of Ohio11 assisted in purchasing those machines, that's when12 we bought them.13 Q What kind of maintenance do they receive?14 A They have to be charged on a regular basis, you15 can't just store them. So you have to hook them up16 to charge then and then unhook them.17 Q So you mean plug them into electricity?18 A Yeah, plug them in. And we plug them in in banks19 and we record exactly when they have been charged20 and how long they have been charged. The batteries21 have to be checked when we run our L & A testing,22 for example. And every time they're used, they're23 L & A tested, logic and accuracy tested, to make24 sure that everything is recorded correctly and25 everything is operating correctly. Other than

Page 15

1 that, you know, every once -- we check the paper2 rolls and things to make sure that it's recording3 and rolling up correctly.4 Q Have you ever had problems with the DRE machines?5 A Sure. I mean, there are a number of problems6 where you -- we get calls pretty frequently that --7 one of the most normal calls is that the paper roll8 is not rolling up correctly. There's -- if you're9 familiar with the machines, there's a paper roll

10 that comes out as you check your vote and shows you11 what you voted and then rolls in on a roll. And,12 in general, the problems that we would have had13 would be that take-up roll. Okay. So it's14 printing and then moving. If it's not moving on15 the take-up roll, then the elections people will16 come over and look at it. And if they can't fix17 it, we'll come and help them. We'll take it out of18 service and come out and fix it.19 Q And how frequently do you have those kind of20 problems?21 A You know, we're a small county. I would say we22 have one or two every election, but that's -- but23 the machines are pretty reliable.24 Q And when you have these problems, does that ever25 cause voters to have to wait to vote?

Page 16

1 A Very, very rarely, because we generally -- we2 don't have a lot of long lines on Election Day.3 Q Do you think that the DRE machines are more likely4 to malfunction or more likely to have those5 problems the older they get?6 MS. PIERCE: Objection; foundation.7 Q You can answer.8 A Do I think that they're -- would you repeat that.9 Q Yes, sorry. In your opinion, are DRE machines

10 more likely to have these problems that you11 described the older that they get?12 A Battery problems, yes. And we replace the13 batteries now and then. And the machine itself,14 no.15 Q Do you have -- are you able to get the parts that16 you need to maintain them?17 A Yes.18 Q Are those parts very expensive?19 A They can be.20 Q Can you give me an example of one.21 A We replaced a lot of batteries recently, just22 because ours were reaching the age where they're --23 where they -- the manufacturer says they're going24 to have more problems. We replaced a number of the25 batteries, those are relatively expensive. There

Page 17

1 are a couple of batteries in the unit, but the2 one -- I'm talking about the power pack that would3 run in a power failure. Other than that, they're4 not a lot.5 Q And you said that you had to replace the6 batteries -- correct me if I'm misstating you --7 after the period of time the manufacturer8 recommended?9 A The manufacturer will tell you that, in their

10 experience, after so many years, you start having a11 higher rate of battery failure. And we don't want12 them out in the field where we would have battery13 failure.14 Q Do you know how many years that is?15 A I'm thinking it was -- and, again, this is just my16 estimation. I'm thinking it was six or seven years17 from the time we bought them.18 Q And you mentioned occasionally you would have19 these problems. When one of the machines goes20 down, do you have paper ballots on hand?21 A Yes.22 Q And do you use those?23 A And, of course, we have other -- in general, what24 happens is they go to another machine.25 Q Does your county plan on replacing the DRE



Exhibit D


JReynolds

Highlight

JReynolds

Highlight



419-241-2070 Fax: 419-241-4718 888-419-2070

6 (Pages 18 to 21)

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1 machines?2 A Not on our own. Again, that's a budget item and3 we're a small county. And that's one of the4 problems small counties have, there's not a lot of5 money in the budget to do it. If the State6 mandates it, which they certainly could, I'm sure7 we would have no choice.8 Q If the State provided funding, would you use that9 to purchase new DREs?

10 A If they mandated the new DREs, yes, the new11 machines.12 Q Do voters ever have to wait in line to vote on13 Election Day in your county?14 A Well, when you say ever have to wait in line --15 you know, I mean, is there a line of two or three16 every time I go vote, yes. Wait in line, almost17 never, in terms of -- now, what I'm saying there is18 in terms of where you have a long wait in a line.19 I can't remember the election. There was one with20 a very complicated issue on the ballot and a lot of21 people got in the voting booth and started reading22 word for word and that backed things up for a23 while. But we rarely have lines that would be of24 any concern.25 Q And you said backed things up for a while. How

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1 long do you think people were waiting in that2 election?3 A Well, I mean, there are times that people were4 going in there and taking like 15 minutes to vote.5 And, in general, we can be having our poll workers6 tell them to hurry up, but in general we don't do7 that because we don't want to be in that position.8 So you're saying how long in line?9 Q From the time that they arrive to the time they

10 actually cast their ballot.11 A I mean, again, that's pretty hard to say. In all12 of the elections we have had, you know, I have seen13 probably 20 minutes.14 Q And just talking specifically about the one that15 you just mentioned with the complicated ballot, how16 long do you think people waited in that election?17 A 20, 25 minutes.18 Q So I was asking specifically about Election Day.19 Let's talk about early in-person voting. Are there20 ever lines to vote early in Fulton County?21 A Not that I have seen.22 Q Have you ever waited in line to vote in Ohio?23 A Well, again, I have waited in a line of three or24 four. So, no, not anything that would be -- would25 have been of concern to me.

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1 Q Are you aware of voters in other counties in Ohio2 who wait in line to vote?3 A Other than seeing things on the news, no, not4 personally.5 Q How many early voting locations does Fulton County6 have?7 A One.8 Q And where is that location?9 A Wauseon, the county seat, it's in our office.

10 Q The Board of Elections?11 A Yes.12 Q And I'm not very familiar with Ohio geography.13 Where in the county is the Board of Elections?14 A Dead center in Fulton County. If you take the15 county, which is a rectangle, Wauseon is just about16 dead center.17 Q And how would a voter get to the Board of18 Elections, is there public transport, would they19 need to drive a car?20 A They would generally drive a car.21 Q And from the furthest point of the county to the22 Board of Elections, how long do you think that23 drive would be?24 A 15 miles maybe.25 Q Are you familiar with the early voting location in

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1 Lucas County?2 A No, not really.3 Q Do you know where it --4 A I know they have argued over it.5 Q What have they argued about?6 A Well, sometimes they, I think -- again, I think --7 they vote at their office and sometimes they do8 not. Sometimes they get a site and then they argue9 over where the site is going to be.

10 Q And by their office, you mean the Lucas County11 Board of Elections?12 A Board of Elections.13 Q Do you know how a voter would get to the Lucas14 County Board of Elections?15 A No. Again, it would just be my assumption. They16 could drive, they could walk, they can take a bus,17 whatever.18 Q Do you know whether the Lucas County Board of19 Elections is very convenient for --20 A I don't.21 Q I would like to show you this document. This is22 where the large room -- let's mark this as23 Exhibit 1.24 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1 marked.)25 Q Is this the declaration that you submitted in this



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1 case?2 A It is.3 Q If you could look at paragraph 6, which is on4 page 2, about halfway through that paragraph,5 there's a sentence that says -- starts Lucas6 County, for example, might rent a voting center in7 a more convenient location.8 A For a special election.9 Q What do you mean by more convenient?

10 A Again, we're talking about a special election.11 Okay. So let's assume that you're having an issue12 which is in western Lucas County. They might say,13 well, we'll do the early voting. If that's the14 only thing on the ballot, they could say we'll rent15 something to be more convenient to do that. They16 could, I don't know that they do, they could, they17 might.18 Q How many people use early voting in Fulton County?19 A Very, very few. I have -- for example, in the20 special election we ran in May of 2015 -- and,21 again, that's a special election -- for the entire22 early voting period, between the hours of 8:00 and23 9:00 -- which is an expansion of our normal office24 hours --25 Q Just so I understand, between 8:00 a.m. and

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1 9:00 --2 A 9:00 a.m.3 Q And 9:00 a.m. Okay.4 A Okay. Which is an expansion of our normal office5 hours. Okay. Normally, we would come in at 9:00.6 We would come in at 8:00 to handle the special --7 the early voting. Okay. That number is zero. For8 all the days of early voting between 8:00 and 9:00,9 the number of votes was zero. The total votes --

10 and, again, that's a special election. The total11 number of votes was 30.12 Now, that does not include we, for example, go13 out to nursing homes and then assist them in voting14 if they wish to vote. We have hand-carried ballots15 every now and then. And there was two of those,16 which someone fills out -- they get an absentee17 ballot, fill it out, walk it in and hand it to us,18 hand-carried ballot. But in-office, in-person19 voting was 30.20 Q And that was for the special election in May of --21 A May of 2015.22 Q And so for a presidential election, say, let's23 take 2012, how many people used early voting?24 A I don't have that number. It's a small number, I25 can promise you that, but I don't know it.

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1 Q Would you say it's more than 100?2 A I would say that in a presidential, sure.3 Q More than 500?4 A I would have to go back and look and see what our5 turnout percentages were and see exactly what it6 was.7 Q Do you have a sense of what percentage of the8 total voters in Fulton County vote using early9 in-person voting?

10 A You know, my estimation would be maybe 1 and a11 half percent, just an estimation.12 Q And do you have -- let's take a presidential year.13 The two part-time staff members that you mentioned14 earlier, are those people working additional hours15 during early voting?16 A They would work some additional hours during early17 voting, yes.18 Q And what percentage of the total work that's going19 on during early voting do you think those part-time20 people are handling?21 A Ask that again, would you.22 Q Yes. So of the total work that needs to get23 done --24 A During early voting?25 Q -- during early voting, what percentage of that is

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1 being handled by your full-time staff versus by2 these two part-time people?3 MS. PIERCE: Objection; vague.4 Q You can answer.5 A I'm going to say -- I'm going to answer that in6 two ways. Okay. First off, our full-time people7 have to be there. Okay. So they're going to be8 there 100 percent of the time. There is no early9 voting hour when our full-time exempt people are

10 not there. So that means that when the part-time11 people are there, unless our full-time people are12 busy doing something, the part-time people -- and13 if they are, they could help the voter in that14 instance. So it's hit and miss. You understand15 what I'm saying? So our full-time people are16 always there every hour of early voting.17 Q Let's look at paragraph 9 of your declaration. In18 the second sentence, you say we only have two19 employees that do 99 percent of the early voting20 work. That seems correct to you?21 A I would say that would be correct.22 Q So you only --23 A Now, we're talking about the early voting work.24 Okay. So there's a lot of work that goes in for25 early voting. Yes, that's correct. We basically



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1 rely on those two people to do that. And, again,2 they have to be there all of those hours. So if3 you say that those hours are 63 a week, which I4 think is about where we were at at one point in5 time, then they have to be there those 63 hours.6 Q Now, in your declaration, I believe it's in7 paragraph 15, the very last paragraph, you say --8 and I'm paraphrasing here -- that we need to have9 early -- uniform early voting hours in Ohio due to,

10 quote, intrinsic fairness; is that correct?11 A Yes.12 Q In your opinion, is it fair that a county with,13 say, hundreds of thousands of registered voters has14 the same number of early voting locations as a very15 small county with only a few thousand registered16 voters?17 A In my opinion, is it fair? I guess it depends on18 the size of the -- in other words, if a county like19 Lucas has a large enough place to handle the early20 voting people, I would say that's fair. You know21 what I'm saying?22 Q Is it fair that voters in some counties, such as23 Fulton County, wait only a very short time to vote24 or maybe don't wait at all, whereas voters in some25 other counties have to wait over an hour to vote?

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1 MS. PIERCE: Objection; speculative.2 A Yeah, and that's exactly correct. I don't know,3 in my knowledge, that people in Lucas County wait4 an hour to vote, I don't know that.5 Q So let's not take Lucas County as an example. In6 general, asking hypothetically, is it, in your7 opinion, fair that a voter waits only a short time8 to vote in Fulton County, but may wait more than an9 hour in another county to vote?

10 A I think that's fair. I mean, you know, I think11 basically you go and -- again, I don't know that12 they wait a long time in these other counties to13 vote. I don't know that Lucas County, which is the14 one we're closest to, has long lines to vote.15 Q And you said you believe it is fair. Why is it16 fair that a voter would wait more than an hour to17 vote?18 A Well, you have to understand, in Fulton County,19 for example, the voter may be traveling a fair ways20 to vote. Why would it be fair that a voter in21 Fulton County has to travel 15 miles to vote and22 the voter in Lucas County has to walk across the23 street?24 Q What about a voter who travels from the very25 outskirts of Lucas County who also travels

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1 15 miles?2 A Again, you're talking about numbers. I don't know3 that they wait a long time to vote in Lucas County.4 I have no personal knowledge of that.5 Q Also, in paragraph 15, you mention that uniform6 early voting hours are necessary due to voter7 confusion; is that correct?8 A Yes.9 Q Could you explain that further.

10 A The voters in Fulton County basically watch the11 television stations from Toledo, which is Lucas,12 and they read the newspaper, the Toledo Blade,13 which is Lucas. Those stations tend to report --14 when we have separate voting hours, they tend to15 report the voting hours available in Lucas County.16 And so we have had people actually walk in in17 Fulton County and say -- before we were open to18 receive votes, when we used to do it differently,19 and then feel disenfranchised when we told them you20 will have to come back at 9:00 or whatever. We21 don't -- we are very opposed to having separate22 hours. In my opinion, if you're an Ohio voter, you23 should have exactly the same opportunity to vote on24 that issue hours-wise as any other Ohio voter.25 Q So you mentioned -- correct me if I misunderstood

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1 -- that voters had come to the Board of Elections2 to try to vote during hours that you were not open;3 is that correct?4 A Yes.5 Q How many voters?6 A One.7 Q One voter?8 A One in particular that I was there when he came9 in.

10 Q But if the Board of Elections was closed, why were11 you there?12 A Why was I there? Because I go in frequently to13 check on their setup and talk to the employees. I14 just -- I'm overzealous.15 Q And what was the name of that voter?16 A I don't know.17 Q Did you make any record of that?18 A No.19 Q Did you talk about it with the staff?20 A We would have discussed it with the staff at the21 time probably, but --22 Q Are you aware of other voters who expressed this23 type of confusion?24 A Not that I would be personally aware of.25 Q If Fulton County was given the option to open an



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1 additional early voting location, but was not2 required to open an additional early voting3 location, would that harm the county at all?4 MS. PIERCE: Objection; vague.5 A Would it harm the county?6 Q Let me rephrase that.7 A You mean would opening another one harm the8 county?9 Q No. If --

10 A Or would the choice, simply having the choice,11 harm the county?12 Q Exactly. Would simply having the option to open13 an additional early voting location have any effect14 on Fulton County?15 A We would not open an additional location. So I16 guess the option would be -- you know, unless we17 were mandated to do so. And the problem is the18 cost is just incredible for us. We would literally19 have to hire instantly in order to open a second20 location. That would be the first problem. And so21 what we're charging back to these entities who put22 issues on a special ballot would go crazy because23 right now we're not charging them for the exempt24 employees that are there working anyway. And the25 extra hours, we're not charging for, and the

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1 Saturday or Sunday, we're not charging them for.2 If we open the second location, we're3 instantly forced to hire two people to staff it,4 one Republican, one Democrat. We instantly have a5 problem with the security of the machines and we6 would have a problem, I'm sure, picking a location7 to use. We might well have to rent one because8 a lot of our locations now are churches or American9 Legion halls. Those are probably not going to say

10 that they'll be open for 22 or 28 days of early11 voting.12 Q So just so I understand, you said that if Fulton13 County was given the choice to open an additional14 voting location, but was not mandated by the State15 to open an additional one, that would have no16 effect on Fulton County because you simply wouldn't17 open another one?18 A No, I'm not saying that. I mean, if we were given19 the choice -- and, again, this is my opinion, I20 can't speak for the entire board. If we were given21 the choice, then obviously you're inferring that22 other counties would have that choice and might do23 so. So, in that event, then would we have some24 harm in terms of people coming in and saying, well,25 gee, I would vote in Archbold if you opened one up

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1 in Archbold or I would vote in Swanton if you did2 that or I would vote in Delta or Fayette, it could3 be, it certainly could.4 Q Do you think voters in Fulton County would like to5 have another additional voting location?6 MS. PIERCE: Objection; speculation.7 A Yeah, I don't know all of the voters in Fulton8 County.9 Q Turning back to your declaration, on -- in

10 paragraph 12, you mention in the last sentence,11 Sunday voting is also not very important in Fulton12 County because the county is small and fairly13 religious. Why is the county being fairly14 religious -- why does that mean Sunday voting is15 not used?16 A Because people don't want to vote on Sunday.17 Q Are you familiar with the term Souls to the Polls?18 A No.19 Q No?20 A I mean, I have heard that, but, you know --21 Q In what context have you heard it?22 A I'm guessing it's a religious thing where they23 encourage members to vote. Is that -- that's my --24 Q You tell me.25 A -- my assumption.

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1 Q Do you know whether Sunday voting is popular in2 other parts of Ohio?3 A I have no idea.4 Q Earlier, you told me -- I apologize, I wrote it5 down -- the size of the Fulton County Board of6 Elections budget, $325,000 a year?7 A Roughly. I mean, that's not a precise number.8 Q Approximately. And how much would that change in9 a presidential year?

10 A That would be it. We would not -- we routinely11 return money to the county. It used to be, we12 jumped the budget around for presidential years,13 but just recently now we have gone to a level. So14 we would say $325,000 would cover the presidential15 and we might return money in a non-presidential.16 Q So in a non-presidential year, you might not use17 that full budget?18 A That's correct.19 Q And then some of that money might go back to the20 county?21 A Correct.22 Q Presumably part of that budget -- sorry, let me23 rephrase that. Do you spend part of that budget on24 your part-time staff, the two people we discussed25 earlier?



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1 A Part of that budget, yes.2 Q And what kind of training does your part-time3 staff receive?4 A It's in-house training, although there are also5 courses from the Secretary of State, I'm sure that6 we use, and there are webinars that the Secretary7 of State provides.8 Q And of that $325,000, taking a presidential year9 as an example, let's say 2016, what percentage of

10 that will you spend on early voting?11 A It would be relatively small, but I have no idea.12 Again, the work is done by our two exempt employees13 so there's no -- the way we have to look at it by14 law is that they're receiving a salary, they work15 what hours are required to receive that salary.16 So, again, there's no -- we don't separate off what17 early voting costs us because we have the people in18 there anyway.19 Q So as I understand it, because you have to pay20 those full-time staff anyway --21 A Right.22 Q -- whether there's early voting or not, the cost23 wouldn't change for those people?24 A They're considered exempt employees so we pay them25 x-amount per month whether they work 40 hours a

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1 week, 50 hours a week, 60 hours a week, or 20 hours2 a week.3 Q If the State were to provide additional funding,4 would that allow you to do more with your --5 A Provide additional funding for what with exact6 strings attached?7 Q Provide additional funding to the Board of8 Elections, would that allow you to spend more on9 your elections?

10 MS. PIERCE: Objection; vague.11 A Yeah, I -- if they gave us additional money, could12 we spend more on elections? Obviously, if they13 gave us money, the only thing we can spend money on14 is elections. So I guess I don't really understand15 that.16 Q How many registered voters in Fulton County have17 the same name?18 MS. PIERCE: Objection; vague.19 A I would not know that as a fact. I know there are20 a number of them. If you go around some of those21 communities, that's not -- certainly not unusual.22 Q Is that something that you have personally23 encountered at the Board of Elections?24 A I personally encountered it not on the Board of25 Elections. There's a gentleman in Wauseon named

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1 John Weber and I get a number of his phone calls2 and some of his bills.3 Q Is that something that the staff at the Board of4 Elections has mentioned to you as a problem?5 A Currently? Rephrase that. The problem, you mean6 people of the same name or --7 Q Yes. Has the staff at the Board of Elections ever8 mentioned to you that they have had difficulties as9 a result of having more than one voter with the

10 same name?11 A Not specifically.12 Q How many voters of the county have the same last13 four digits of their Social Security number?14 A I have no idea.15 Q Has the staff at the Board of Elections ever16 mentioned that as something that they have17 encountered?18 A No. I mean, it's just like saying, well, how many19 have the same driver's license number. You know,20 it's -- currently, they use methods to identify21 voters and in general -- they do have a number that22 are the same name, I'm well aware of that.23 Archbold, there's a lot of Rupps around Archbold,24 there's a ton of them. And so there are a number25 of the same name.

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1 MR. WHITMORE: And Rupps.2 A And Rupps, spelled the same, exactly, Rupp and3 Rupp. So, you know, currently, is there a problem4 with those? No, I don't think so. Nobody's told5 me that there's a problem with those currently6 under the way we operate now.7 Q Are you familiar with the requirements under8 current law to verify an absentee ballot?9 A Generally.

10 Q Are you familiar with S.B. 205?11 A No. I mean, you know, I'm not -- not from a legal12 sense.13 Q Prior to the current law, which requires five14 pieces of information to verify an absentee ballot15 -- so prior to that law coming into effect -- do16 you remember what the Board of Elections did to17 verify absentee ballots, to verify a voter's18 identity?19 A When did that come into effect?20 Q S.B. 205?21 A When?22 Q I believe in 2014.23 A You know, this is the envelope we use for absentee24 ballots. It's been basically -- as far as I know,25 it's been basically the same for --



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1 Q Have you or members of your staff had problems2 verifying the identity of voters using absentee3 ballots?4 A Not with the information that's on there now.5 Q Say, thinking back to 2012, did you have absentee6 ballots where the Board of Elections had difficulty7 verifying the identification of the voter?8 A Again, I have not been told of that. I have no9 personal knowledge of that.

10 Q Do you know what happens if the information that11 the voter fills out on their absentee ballot is12 correct, but it doesn't match the information13 that's in the voter registration because there was14 some kind of error in entering it, for example, the15 election worker just mistyped the number or16 transposed two numbers?17 A Could you be a little more specific.18 Q Yes. So just say I'm a voter and I fill out an19 absentee ballot application.20 A Okay.21 Q And I fill it out correctly, everything on it is22 truthful and accurate.23 A Okay. Which means you're providing this24 information.25 Q Exactly. And I submit it to the Board of

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1 Elections and the Board of Elections matches that2 information to what's in the voter registration3 database, but there's an error in the database,4 just through, for example, someone entering the5 information in wrong, they hit the wrong number.6 Would that ballot be counted?7 A Well, we could certainly allow that person to vote8 a provisional ballot and then I'm sure it would9 depend -- or depending on when we got the ballot, I

10 mean, we might have time to resolve that. But, in11 general, they could vote a provisional ballot.12 Q So if I understand correctly, they submit this13 absentee ballot, you would notice that there was14 some discrepancy between --15 A Well, that's your hypothetical.16 Q Right.17 A If the clerk notices that there was --18 Q Right. So, in that scenario, the clerk would19 contact the voter?20 A I wouldn't see why they could not.21 Q And you said that they could vote a provisional22 ballot. Would the --23 A Depending on what -- and if it's a clerical error,24 they could probably void a ballot and redo it. But25 if it's an error in the database which would

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1 indicate that their identity would be different2 than the -- you know, whatever, then they may,3 under circumstances, have to vote a provisional4 ballot.5 Q And how would the clerk at the Board of Elections6 know that it was an error in the database, rather7 than an error on the absentee ballot?8 A It's your hypothetical, it's not mine. How would9 they know it's an error in the database? I guess

10 it would depend on the nature of the error.11 Q And you said that they could vote a provisional12 ballot. That would be presuming that the clerk had13 recognized it as some kind of error in the14 database?15 A Let me just try to start over. If you walk into16 the polls on Election Day and you have a problem17 with your data, with the data you provide matching18 up with the database, perhaps you moved or19 something, you know, you could be allowed to vote a20 provisional ballot. If you're sending in an21 absentee ballot -- and, again, on your22 hypothetical, the clerk notices there's a problem23 and there's a reasonable amount of time, I don't24 know why the clerk couldn't contact the person and25 say there's a problem here, let's try to get it

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1 resolved. Again, that's -- it's your hypothetical,2 it's not mine.3 Q Is it the practice of your office that if they4 notice the information on the absentee ballot5 doesn't match the database, that they would contact6 the voter?7 A You know, it's a small county and I'm sure they8 have contacted the people before. But in that9 particular case, again, it's your hypothetical. I

10 don't know of --11 Q Are you aware that, under current law, voters who12 cast a provisional ballot must provide their date13 of birth and their current address?14 A Yes.15 Q Again, that is a somewhat recent change in the16 law. Prior to the current law, how did you verify17 the identity of people casting provisional ballots?18 A I don't -- I would have to go back and get a --19 you know, for example, they cast the provisional20 ballot when they walk in the polls. Then the poll21 workers are certainly free to verify their identity22 via a driver's license or whatever at the time they23 give them the provisional.24 Q How frequently do you reject -- or does the Board25 of Elections reject a provisional ballot because



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1 they're not able to verify the identity of a voter?2 MS. PIERCE: Objection. Are we3 talking pre-2014 or after?4 Q Current, in 2014.5 A Currently, it happens now and then. But, again,6 the provisionals are -- you have a period of time7 to straighten those things out and provide whatever8 ID is required.9 Q So if there is information --

10 A So what you're saying in your hypothetical -- I11 don't mean to interrupt you -- but in your12 hypothetical, you're saying we get the provisional13 ballot, we sit on it for ten days, and then the14 voter fails to provide the required ID. In that15 case, we would then have no choice but to --16 Q Let's talk about a slightly different situation.17 So you receive a provisional ballot and some of the18 information is on it. Say the date of birth is19 missing, but the ID provided matched and was20 correct. What would happen in that instance?21 A Then my -- again, the Secretary of State requires22 that this information is on there. So my opinion23 would be that that would be not -- now, again, it's24 a provisional ballot you're saying, so there is25 time for them to update that information. If they

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1 don't update it, then the ballot is not counted.2 Q So if you receive a provisional ballot that's3 missing the date of birth, but all of the other4 information is correct and it's been verified, is5 it the practice of your office to contact that6 voter and allow them to procure the missing date of7 birth?8 A It happens very, very rarely, but my opinion is9 that we would do that, yeah.

10 Q Thinking back to, say, 2012, when the address and11 date of birth were not required on the provisional12 ballot, how many times, in your opinion, was a13 provisional ballot that was cast in Fulton County14 counted that you did not believe should have been15 counted?16 A How many times was one counted that I personally17 don't believe should have been counted?18 Q Before the address and date of birth was required.19 A You know, obviously, the board would make that20 decision. So, personally, I don't have a number21 for you.22 Q Can you think of any instances?23 A That a vote was counted that you say that I don't24 think should have been counted?25 Q (Indicating.)

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1 A Not specifically that I can recall.2 Q What does the Board of Elections or your staff3 do --4 A Let me just add one thing there.5 Q Yeah.6 A In a small county, the Board of Elections is much7 more inclined to know the voters and to be able to8 assist the voters. Okay. It's much easier to do9 than it would be in Cuyahoga County.

10 Q So in your county, do you think, do your staff11 need these five requirements on the provisional12 ballot to be able to verify it or, as you said,13 because they know most of the voters --14 A Yes.15 Q Why do they need that?16 A Why do they need them? There are, again, at least17 two John Webers that I know of. There are a number18 of Rupps and Rupps around Archbold that would be --19 you know, and the other thing that I will point out20 is when they request this absentee ballot, that's21 exactly the data they provide. So they have22 already provided us that data. So now you're23 saying it's missing on the second time around.24 You know, could our people go back and look it25 up? I guess that's a possibility. But the other

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1 side is what this is telling me is I'm writing down2 here and swearing that I'm the person who cast that3 ballot. I may not be the person that -- you know,4 the other one is I'm the person that requested the5 absentee ballot. Now I'm the person who filled6 this ballot in and is submitting it.7 Q So, if I understand you, are you aware of8 situations where you have not been able to verify9 the ballot just because the date of birth was

10 missing? So, for example, they had the same name,11 the same ID, maybe the last four digits of the12 Social Security, and the same address. So the only13 information that would allow you to distinguish14 between two voters was the date of birth.15 MS. PIERCE: Objection; vague.16 A Yeah, I can't say that I have a particular17 knowledge of a case in which that -- I just don't18 have the individual knowledge of that. Certainly,19 there are a number of provisionals that don't get20 counted because various information is not21 provided.22 Q And the date of birth would be one of those?23 A Could be one of those, sure.24 Q You mentioned that your staff helps voters. What25 do they do to help voters who are illiterate or



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1 perhaps struggle with literacy?2 A Well, we have a number of things. And, again,3 it's not -- we're talking about Ohio law here,4 we're not talking about the local. You are able to5 assist a voter and our people would certainly point6 that out. If you have a voter that has a problem7 they may have an assist from a relative or8 something to assist them to vote. Certainly we go9 out to nursing homes and things, where some of the

10 people may or may not be literate. We have -- the11 machines have recordings where you could literally12 plug in and listen to one of our clerks reading the13 issues into the machine. So there are a lot of14 things that they could do.15 Q If there's a voter who is illiterate and wanted to16 request and fill out the absentee ballot request17 application, would your staff help them fill that18 out?19 A They're not going to go to their home and help20 them fill it out, no.21 Q If they came into the office?22 A If they came and said -- they would, sure.23 Q So now let's say that same voter has received24 their absentee ballot and they need to fill out the25 identifying information on it. Would your staff

Page 47

1 assist them in filling that out?2 A You know, if they were to call in and say I don't3 understand what you're asking for here or do I have4 to fill this out or that out, then certainly they5 would. But they're not going to say, well, your6 Social Security number is blank.7 Q But if they were illiterate, would they be able to8 come into the office and have someone on your staff9 fill out the form for them?

10 A If they were illiterate and came into the office,11 we would probably -- I'm sure we would help them.12 Q In your declaration, you talk a lot about special13 elections?14 A Yes.15 Q Just so I understand, your concerns about special16 elections are related to the existence of early17 voting generally, not specifically just Golden18 Week?19 A No, early voting generally and the expansion of20 it. And, basically, there are a number of reasons21 why in -- the small counties, they are very22 different than the large counties, very, very23 different. Again, we talked about the geography of24 Fulton County. If we put -- for example, if we25 expand the hours from where they are now, if we add

Page 48

1 a location from what we are required now, we're2 going to incur costs that are going to knock the3 Commissioner's socks off because, in these special4 elections in particular, it's not always the5 taxpayer directly who is paying for this. We6 charge those back.7 So if I'm Swanton School District and I put a8 levy on -- or let's go to the Swanton Parks, which9 is this last special election in May of '15, they

10 put a levy on the ballot. We're going to charge11 them what our costs are related to that early12 voting and the Election Day. Lucas County is going13 to charge them also because part of that falls in14 Lucas County.15 Lucas County's charge will be way more than16 ours will because Lucas County is hiring people to17 staff that facility, wherever it is. They have18 staff that's working there that are billable,19 they're non-exempt or hourly or whatever, and20 they're billable to that entity. We had -- in the21 last special election, we had two entities that22 were going to put something on the ballot and23 pulled it off because they found out they were24 going to be charged, even at our low rate.25 So you have to understand that the taxpayers

Page 49

1 of the school district, for example, are paying --2 the Swanton School District, they're paying a lot3 of money to get that on the ballot, especially as4 it relates to Lucas County because of the way Lucas5 County -- and I'm not saying they should. I don't6 think they have a whole lot of choice. But because7 of the way they handle the election is vastly8 different from the way we do it, we -- our9 exempt -- and I don't want to -- I'm not going to

10 preach here.11 Our exempt employees, as I have said, work12 every one of those hours. Okay. So that means13 that by the time we get to counting votes on the14 night of the election, they have been up at 3:3015 that morning. They worked from 3:30 all the way16 through the day and we're getting up to maybe 9:0017 at night by the time we have got everything back in18 and we're starting to count. They've worked on the19 Monday before the election, they've worked on the20 Sunday before the election, they've worked on the21 Saturday before the election, probably a total of22 63 hours in that week.23 So now we're taking these people who you just24 dragged through a knothole backwards and said count25 the votes. We don't think that's a great position



Exhibit D




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14 (Pages 50 to 53)

Page 50

1 to be in. I mean, the board is trying to make sure2 that we can help back these people up. Because at3 the time they're the tiredest, we get to the4 critical stage of what's going on.5 Q So those are all concerns about early voting, not6 specific to Golden Week?7 A Well, if you didn't have the early voting -- yes,8 the early voting, not specific to Golden Week, yes.9 MS. CHERRY: Why don't we take a

10 short break now. Let's go off the record.11 (Recess taken.)12 MS. CHERRY: Let's go back on the13 record.14 Q So you mentioned earlier that you have some15 polling locations in Fulton County where more than16 one precinct votes at that location?17 A Yes.18 Q That's correct? Okay. And at those19 multi-precinct voting locations, do you have20 consolidated poll books?21 A No, we have the poll books currently by precinct,22 although we are looking at -- the State of Ohio now23 is going to provide funds to buy electronic poll24 books. And when we go to that, we will have --25 virtually all of the machines in the location will

Page 51

1 be set up to take anybody that comes into that2 location. Now, currently, in some instances, we3 have that.4 Q By that, you mean the consolidated --5 A The ability of machines to take two or three6 precincts.7 Q And what's the advantage of having a consolidated8 poll book?9 A Well, a consolidated polling place?

10 Q Poll book.11 A Poll book. Well, there are a lot of advantages to12 the electronic poll books. I mean, obviously,13 you're going to come in and, depending on what14 style you buy, the poll book will basically15 identify the voter, allow them to pick a party in16 the primary. It will do everything, including17 setting the card that he takes to the machine.18 And then it will allow him to vote19 virtually -- because we'll set it up that way -- in20 any of the machines that are available, which,21 again, would cut down -- if you go back to the22 example I gave where I vote, where they have a23 split, they have one machine for Evergreen and one24 for Swanton Schools, et cetera, if ten people come25 in at the same time that have to vote for Swanton

Page 52

1 schools and they only have one machine to do that,2 then that's a problem. But if we get to where3 we're using the electronic poll books,4 theoretically, we would be able to just -- we set5 their card for the split as well as the precinct.6 And in addition to that, the reporting is much7 easier.8 Q What do you mean by that?9 A Well, at 11:00 and 4:00, we post the voting rolls

10 to date. And so on these now, you can just hit and11 print it right off the printer that's there and12 just print that report virtually instantly. And13 there's almost nothing that the -- and in addition14 to that, you're -- it's much more convenient for15 the voters because -- when we start out, we'll have16 one e-poll book at each precinct.17 But, in general, eventually, it's our hope18 that we'll be able to have one or two per location.19 You always have to worry about backups too though.20 I mean, you have to -- you know what I'm saying?21 If you have just one at a location and it fails for22 some reason, then you have a problem.23 Q So just so I understand how this would work, just24 say I'm a voter. I come into a location where25 there is more than one precinct voting at that same

Page 53

1 location.2 A Right.3 Q And I don't know which precinct I'm assigned to.4 A Well, you see, that's your first problem. You5 have to figure out -- so we'll take Swanton, which6 has four precincts. There's a great older lady7 there that's worked the elections since dirt was8 invented and she is the first one at the door. And9 people know her so they'll go up to her and --

10 either because they know her or because she's the11 first one at the door -- and they'll say where do I12 vote. And if you really don't know where you vote,13 where do you live. Okay.14 Then there are maps that are drawn out, which15 are -- so you go over and you start looking at the16 map. If you live in the middle of a precinct,17 that's not a problem. If you live on a road that18 borders the precinct, sometimes one half of the19 road is precinct X and the other half is20 precinct Y. So then you have to start checking21 with --22 If you're going with the e-poll books, you23 punch in your ID and basically that's done for you.24 It will tell you you vote at so-and-so. And if25 you're in the wrong location, it will tell you



Exhibit D




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15 (Pages 54 to 57)

Page 54

1 you're in the wrong location, you vote at this2 location, and print out directions to go to that3 location.4 Q Have you ever had a situation where a voter has5 come into one of these polling locations that has6 more than one precinct and has voted the wrong7 ballot because they voted in the wrong precinct?8 A I'll give you an example where they voted the9 wrong ballot. If you go into the primaries, we had

10 a gentleman come in very distraught a long time ago11 in one of the older elections. But he got an12 issues only ballot in the primary and that's13 because that's what he requested. And he went and14 voted it and went all the way through and hit cast15 ballot. And, of course, for us, once you cast the16 ballot -- then he went back and complained that he17 didn't have any candidates. Well, once you cast18 the ballot, you have voted. So if you -- have we19 had people who have come in and -- would you go20 over that again just --21 Q Yes. So I'll state my example again. Just say I22 come in, I'm a voter, and I don't know which23 precinct I'm supposed to vote at. Is it possible24 that I might vote in the wrong precinct because I25 got that wrong?

Page 55

1 A Well, we would either guide you to the correct2 precinct or if you went to the precinct and we3 checked the poll books at the precinct and you're4 not in there, then you could vote provisional.5 Theoretically, you could vote provisional if you6 have all of the other qualifications.7 Q Are you aware of any times when someone voted the8 wrong ballot because of this precinct -- voting in9 the wrong precinct issue, especially in one of

10 these locations where there's more than one11 precinct?12 A No, because we're checking you against the poll13 book. And if you're not in that poll book, you're14 going to vote provisional or you're going to find15 your precinct.16 Q And just say -- just so I understand, if these17 precincts are all at the same location --18 A Yeah.19 Q -- how would it be set up or is there a different20 desk for --21 A Each location currently would have a poll book.22 So I walk up and say I'm in Swanton 3 and we look23 through that poll book. If your name is in there,24 then you can -- then you will vote there. If you25 your name is not in there, we're going to try to

Page 56

1 find out where you should vote. And we're going to2 say, well, okay, you're in Swanton 2 over there or3 whatever. And if that doesn't work and we're4 convinced that you're an eligible voter, you can5 vote provisionally.6 And, of course, one of the things -- I'll go7 back to the time constraints on our staff. After8 they're done voting on the last day before the9 election, all the books have to be updated before

10 the morning because, when the polls open and you11 walk in, I have to know whether you voted an12 absentee ballot. Okay. So that all has to be13 updated.14 So when you come there and you say my name is15 John Smith and you're not -- you may not be in the16 book or you may be in the book and it may indicate17 that you voted an absentee ballot. If it indicates18 that, you may still be able to vote a provisional19 ballot because you may say I requested that ballot,20 but I never filled it out. So we may still allow21 you to vote provisional. Then we'll allow enough22 days after the election for all of the other23 mailed-in ballots to clear. And then if a person24 has not voted the absentee ballot, then that25 provisional probably -- unless there's some other

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1 problem with it, that provisional is probably the2 way he ends up voting.3 Q So if I come in and just say I think I'm in4 precinct 1, I would stand in the line for5 precinct 1 or go to the table --6 A Yes.7 Q -- and they would say, no, you're not there.8 A Right.9 Q Then we would go through the process of finding

10 out --11 A Then they would ask them where they live and try12 to figure out where they -- you know, where they13 are. And then we would make sure that they, in14 fact, are eligible to vote. And I'm sure the first15 thing they would ask is have you moved recently,16 have you -- you know, because most people that do17 that, they'll say, well, I voted here before. And18 it may be four years since they have voted or19 whatever and maybe they have moved in the meantime20 or whatever. So we'll try to locate for them21 whatever we can in terms of where they are, in22 fact, eligible to vote.23 Q So the advantage of having these consolidated poll24 books would be you walk in --25 A You know, that would be done instantly. It's a



Exhibit D




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16 (Pages 58 to 61)

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1 great service to the voter. And we may, in fact,2 have to call back into the office to say I have3 so-and-so here who says he's whatever and we can't4 find him, you know, what do you show there.5 Q Sorry. Having the consolidated poll book would6 save time for the voter and for the staff?7 A It saves a lot of time for the voter, it's more8 convenient for the staff. And, again, the big9 savings for the voter is the fact that they could

10 now go to virtually any machine in the place the11 way it will be set up. So, again, in my example, I12 walk into the Fulton precinct, they don't have to13 put me on machine 2 because that's got the14 Evergreen split where I vote, they just simply hand15 me the card.16 The poll books that we're looking at, the card17 is set right in the poll books. So they just take18 your information, they pull it out and give it to19 you, and you go right there. There are concerns20 with the electronic poll books, don't get me wrong,21 but --22 Q Are you aware of any cases of voter fraud in23 Fulton County?24 A Yes, ma'am.25 Q Can you tell me about those.

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1 A We successfully prosecuted a case a couple years2 ago, I think. We just caught it by luck and good3 clerical work. The person voted -- as I recall,4 they called in and wanted to change their address5 to an address in, I think, South Carolina, I6 believe.7 MR. WHITMORE: Yes.8 A The clerk talked to him for quite a while and just9 happened, in general conversation, asked him how

10 long they had been down there or something and he11 said six, eight years, long time. So after the12 conversation, the clerk is saying, you know, that's13 kind of strange they never updated their whatever,14 let's check the voting records and see if he votes15 up here. Yeah, he does, he votes up here by16 absentee ballot. And the farther they went, the17 stranger it got.18 So they called down there and -- to make a19 long story short -- they said, yes, he votes down20 here, has voted in three or four national elections21 and a number of local elections. We then thought22 it could be an ID problem, stolen identity or23 something. So we retrieved the signatures from the24 poll books in South Carolina, matched them to the25 signatures on the absentee ballot request from

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1 Fulton County. Those were an exact match.2 We then proceeded to -- we called the federal3 authorities first since the person had voted in --4 obviously voted at least in two different states in5 a federal -- number of federal elections. Believe6 it or not, they declined to prosecute. So we7 called the Ohio Attorney General's office and8 Mr. DeWine said I have a person in the area and9 they can be there tomorrow. And so we ended up

10 prosecuting that person. And, I mean, that's11 one -- the State of Ohio, to my knowledge, does not12 exchange information with South Carolina. So had13 the clerk not been vigilant, there would have14 probably been no way we would have caught that.15 Q So just to make sure I understand, this was a16 voter who was registered in Fulton County, was --17 A Correct.18 Q -- voting by absentee --19 A Correct.20 Q -- in Fulton County, and also voting in person21 in --22 A South Carolina in person.23 Q -- South Carolina? And when did this take place?24 MR. WHITMORE: Do you recall?25 A A couple years ago, three or four years ago.

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1 MR. WHITMORE: I would say it was 2012,2 2013.3 A Yeah, maybe '13, '12 or '13.4 MR. WHITMORE: He voted in the5 presidential primary in 2012.6 THE WITNESS: I remember that. But7 whether that was when we caught it or8 whether that was --9 MR. WHITMORE: Well, the primary was in

10 March and so I think it was caught maybe11 in June.12 Q Are you aware of other cases of voter fraud in13 Fulton County?14 A No. I mean, I would have to say if I was aware15 of -- specifically of a case in Fulton County, I16 would -- we would prosecute it.17 Q And this case that we just talked about with the18 voter who voted in South Carolina, that didn't take19 place during Golden Week?20 A Well, he voted in person in South Carolina and he21 voted absentee by mail in Fulton.22 Q So it did not take -- he didn't register --23 A No.24 Q -- or change his address during Golden Week?25 Okay. And you said Ohio does not, that you're



Exhibit D


JReynolds

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1 aware of, does not exchange information with South2 Carolina?3 A Correct.4 Q Do you know if Ohio exchanges information with any5 other states?6 A We do. And you're going to get me into a pet7 peeve on elections. We, for example, do not8 exchange information with Michigan. And from where9 you're sitting, Michigan is, what, 10 miles to the

10 north. We don't exchange information. We have a11 lot of people that live in the Wauseon area and12 have a cottage at one of the lakes, Devils Lake,13 Round Lake, Southern Michigan, Hillsdale area. And14 it's quite possible they could be voting in both.15 We do not exchange information.16 We do not exchange with -- we do exchange with17 several states. And that -- to me, that's one of18 the huge problems in the election system that we19 have. I think they should be required to have data20 that can be exchanged between any state, at least21 have it in the form that any state can use it if22 they want to do that.23 Q I think I'm almost done here. For the record,24 what is your race?25 A Caucasian.

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1 Q And how many members of the Fulton -- how many2 members are on the Fulton County Board of3 Elections?4 A We don't ask that on here. Okay. How many --5 Q How many members are there of the Fulton County6 Board of Elections?7 A There are four members, two Democrats, two8 Republicans.9 Q And how many of those members are African

10 American?11 A None.12 Q How many of the members of the Fulton County Board13 of Elections are Latino?14 A None that I know of.15 Q What is the race of the director of the Fulton16 County Board of Elections?17 A Caucasian.18 Q What is the race of the deputy director of the19 Fulton County Board of Elections?20 A Caucasian.21 Q You mentioned two part-time staff. What is the22 race of each of those?23 A Caucasians.24 Q Are there any African-American elected officials25 that you know of in Fulton County?

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1 A There are -- not that I know of. Let me say this.2 There are a very, very small percentage of3 minorities in Fulton County.4 Q Are there any Latinos who are elected officials in5 Fulton County?6 MR. WHITMORE: I think there is a city7 councilman in Wauseon.8 A You're talking about the whole county?9 MR. WHITMORE: Countywide or just --

10 A County offices or any office within the county?11 Q Either.12 A Well, then we have -- I thought you were asking13 about countywide offices like the commissioner.14 Q Let's talk countywide.15 A You're talking about everybody then, like the16 Village of Delta and the Village of Swanton and17 et cetera, et cetera?18 Q Sure.19 A I'm sure there are Latino people in there and20 probably some African Americans.21 Q But at the county level?22 A At the county level, not that I know of.23 Q Are there any elected officials at the county24 level in Fulton County who are Democrats?25 A None.

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1 Q How did you first hear about this case?2 A How did I first hear about it?3 Q Uh-huh.4 A We first heard about it when we were talking about5 the case that proceeded this, which was NAACP6 versus Husted. I gave a declaration in that case.7 And then when this case came up, it was an8 extension of that, and I received -- I was9 contacted by the Attorney General's office.

10 Q And how did you become a declarant in the NAACP11 case?12 A The same thing, I think they were looking for13 people from small counties because Ohio has a lot14 of small counties. And I had been relatively15 active with the Secretary of State at these16 conferences and things that we go to in trying to17 say that you have to do something for small18 counties because they're so much different than the19 larger counties. The problems are different, the20 skills required are different, they're just21 entirely -- it's like night and day. And so -- and22 then the majority of counties would probably fall23 in the small county category.24 Q And how are small counties different to large25 counties when it comes to election administration?



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JReynolds

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1 A If you're a large county, you're hiring staff. So2 if you're the director or deputy director, you are3 a manager or a supervisor. In other words, your4 skill is in directing and organizing and motivating5 people and getting them to accomplish something.6 Okay. If you're a director in a small county,7 you're a technician, you do the work. You're the8 one counting the votes, you're the one doing9 virtually everything.

10 You have to be much more technically oriented11 in a small county because that's your skill, you're12 a technician. Now, you may also direct poll13 workers and things. I'm not saying that they don't14 do any of that. But they have to be much more15 technically oriented than the large counties, which16 would be managerially oriented.17 Q Do large counties have problems with election18 administration that you don't have in a smaller19 county?20 MS. PIERCE: Objection; speculative.21 A Yeah, that would be speculative. Although, I22 would say certainly Lucas County has been in the23 press for many years about problems on the Board of24 Elections in Lucas County.25 Q You mentioned that you spoke with someone in the

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1 Attorney General's office because they were looking2 for small -- people from small counties. Why do3 you think they were looking for people from small4 counties?5 A Because they understand, to some extent, that the6 problems are different and the effects are7 different in small counties and large counties.8 Q Did you write the first draft of your declaration?9 A I did. Well, on the phone.

10 Q What do you mean by that?11 A On the phone with a representative. Did I write12 it?13 Q Yes.14 A I verbalized it.15 Q So you dictated it?16 A Yeah.17 Q Who did you dictate it to?18 A An attorney at the Attorney General's office.19 Q Were there just one draft?20 A He then sent it back to me and I went over it and,21 I think, made a couple of small changes and sent it22 back to them.23 Q Did you keep those drafts?24 A No. The changes were very small. Then when I25 sent it back to him electronically and we agreed

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1 and then I signed it and then sent it to him.2 Q So when you said he sent it to you, he e-mailed it3 to you?4 A Yes.5 Q And then you e-mailed back your edited --6 A Yes.7 Q Do you still have those e-mails?8 A The first draft of it, I don't think so, no.9 Again, they were very small changes. I mean, you

10 know, we're talking about a word or two here and11 there, very small.12 Q And you mentioned earlier that you had skimmed the13 complaint in this case. How did you decide what to14 put in your declaration?15 A How? I mean, I talked to the Attorney General's16 office and they asked me questions about how17 certain things affected small counties.18 Q Were there any topics that were in the complaint19 that you read about that you didn't include in your20 declaration?21 A That I didn't include? Not -- I can't say that22 there are offhand.23 Q Were there -- sorry. When you dictated the24 declaration over the phone, were there --25 A Let me just revise that. I don't think I had much

Page 69

1 in my declaration about the IDs on these things,2 et cetera, et cetera.3 Q You mean on the absentee ballot?4 A Correct, and -- yeah.5 Q And why was that not in your declaration?6 A I don't know. I just -- I was not really aware7 that that was in your filings until after that.8 MS. CHERRY: In the complaint. Okay.9 Let's just go off the record for one

10 second while I look at my notes, but I11 think I might be done.12 (Discussion held off the record.)13 MS. CHERRY: Back on the record.14 Those are all the questions that I have15 for you at this time. Thank you.16 THE WITNESS: Okay.17 - - -18 EXAMINATION19 BY MS. PIERCE:20 Q I have just a couple questions.21 A Okay.22 Q We'll get you out of here real soon, I promise.23 A Not a problem.24 Q Mr. Weber, we talked -- or you talked earlier in25 your deposition about how, during Golden Week,



Exhibit D




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19 (Pages 70 to 73)

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1 voters can both register and vote early in-person2 at the same time; is that right?3 A Yes.4 Q Golden Week is also a week that the board is open5 for early voting generally; is that right?6 A Well, it depends on the current court case. You7 know, I think we have been and then I think8 currently we're not. But, again, the current9 ruling, as I understand it, the election hours

10 would vary some based on the type of election.11 Q I'm sorry, that was an unclear question. Back in12 2012, for example, when Golden Week still existed,13 it was also a week where the board was open for14 early voting generally?15 A Yes.16 Q So any registered voter could come in and vote in17 person, right?18 A Yes.19 Q And any registered voter could also request and20 send in an absentee ballot by mail, correct?21 A Yes.22 Q And sitting here today, Mr. Weber, is your23 declaration still true and accurate?24 A Yes.25 MS. PIERCE: That's it for me. Thank

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1 you.2 MR. WHITMORE: Do I have an opportunity3 to ask him a couple of questions to4 clarify a couple things that he said from5 the perspective of the County?6 MS. CHERRY: Sure.7 MS. PIERCE: Sure.8 - - -9 EXAMINATION

10 BY MR. WHITMORE:11 Q Mr. Weber, you had mentioned that these e-mail12 drafts, you had composed those or received those.13 That was outside the scope of your duties as a14 member of the Board of Elections; is that correct?15 A Correct.16 Q So by deleting them, you're not destroying public17 records, correct?18 A No.19 Q And as a member at the Board of Elections, you20 said there are four members?21 A Correct.22 Q How many votes do you have?23 A One.24 Q So any questions that pertain to purchasing, you25 have no unilateral authority to make major

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1 decisions regarding purchasing; is that correct?2 A No.3 MR. WHITMORE: That's all I have.4 (Discussion held off the record.)5 (Deposition concluded at 10:32 a.m.)67

JOHN F. WEBER89

10111213141516171819202122232425

1 C E R T I F I C A T E2 STATE OF OHIO )

) SS.3 COUNTY OF LUCAS )4 I, Chandra N. Whetstone, Notary Public for the5 State of Ohio, do hereby certify that JOHN F. WEBER was6 first duly sworn; that the testimony given was reduced7 to stenotype; that the foregoing is a true and correct8 transcript of the testimony so given; that this9 deposition was taken at the time and place in the

10 foregoing caption specified.11 I do further certify that I am not a relative,12 employee, or attorney of any of the parties or counsel13 employed by the parties hereto or financially14 interested in this action, nor am I or the court15 reporting firm with which I am affiliated under a16 contract as defined in Civil Rule 28(D).17 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my18 hand and affixed my notarial seal of office at Toledo,19 Ohio, this 26th day of October, 2015.20212223 CHANDRA N. WHETSTONE, nee PERRY

Notary Public in and for the24 State of Ohio25 My Commission expires February 28, 2018.



Exhibit D


Deposition of Daniel Troy , taken October 23, 2015

www.cadyreporting.comCADY REPORTING SERVICES, INC. - 216.861.9270

Page 1

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF OHIO EASTERN DIVISION

OHIO DEMOCRATIC PARTY, )et al., ) ) Plaintiffs, ) Case No. 2:15CV1802vs. ) Judge Watson ) Magistrate Judge KingJON HUSTED, et al., ) ) Defendants. )

- - - - -

THE DEPOSITION OF DANIEL TROY

FRIDAY, OCTOBER 23, 2015

- - - - -

The deposition of DANIEL TROY, called by the

Plaintiffs for examination pursuant to the Federal

Rules of Civil Procedure, taken before me, the

undersigned, Lynn A. Regovich, Notary Public within

and for the State of Ohio, taken at the offices of

Cady Reporting Services, 1468 West 9th Street,

Suite 440, Cleveland, Ohio, commencing at

2:10 p.m., the day and date above set forth.



Exhibit E




2 (Pages 2 to 5)

Page 2

1 APPEARANCES:2 On behalf of the Plaintiffs:3 K. Shiek Pal, Esq.

Perkins, Coie4 700 13th Street, NW

Suite 6005 Washington, DC 20005-3960

202.654.63216 [email protected]


Sarah E. Pierce, Esq.9 Tiffany L. Carwile, Esq.

Ohio Attorney General10 30 E. Broad Street

16th Floor11 Columbus, Ohio 43215

614.466.287212 [email protected]

tiffany.carwile@ohioattorneygeneral.gov13141516171819202122232425

Page 3

1 DANIEL TROY DEPOSITION INDEX2 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE NO.

MR. PAL .................... 43 MS. PIERCE .................... 1034 EXHIBIT NO. PAGE NO.

DT1 .................... 375 DT2 .................... 726789

10111213141516171819202122232425

Page 4

1 DANIEL TROY2 of lawful age, called by the Plaintiffs for3 examination pursuant to the Federal Rules of Civil4 Procedure, having been first duly sworn, as5 hereinafter certified, was examined and testified6 as follows:7 MR. PAL: Mr. Troy,8 thanks again for coming down. I know you're9 very busy and I appreciate your time. You've

10 been sworn in so I'm just going to start with11 some background questions.12 EXAMINATION OF DANIEL TROY13 BY MR. PAL:14 Q Could you please state your full name for the15 record?16 A Daniel Patrick Troy.17 Q And what is your address?18 A 31600 Lake Shore Boulevard, Willowick, Ohio19 44095.20 Q And Mr. Troy, have you ever been deposed21 before?22 A Yes.23 Q Can you tell me the details?24 A I think I've been deposed twice by the Attorney25 General's office on suits. I've been deposed

Page 5

1 in, oh, an annexation suit as a county2 commissioner. So several times. Yeah.3 Q So you're familiar with these proceedings?4 A Right.5 Q So then what I'm about to tell you is probably6 old hat, but obviously every word you say is7 being recorded today and so we'd like to keep8 as clean a record as possible.9 A Sure.

10 Q I'm going to ask you some questions, give you11 time to answer. I'd appreciate it if you let12 me finish my question before you begin your13 answers. If you can make your answers verbal,14 no gestures, no abbreviations. As clear a15 record as possible for the court reporter. If16 I ask you anything that you don't understand,17 feel free to point that out and I'll clarify18 it.19 A Okay.20 Q If you don't ask, I'll assume you understood my21 question. If at any point you want to talk to22 your counsel or you need a break, just let us23 know. I'll just ask that if there's a question24 pending that you complete your answer before we25 break.



Exhibit E




3 (Pages 6 to 9)

Page 6

1 Mr. Troy, is there any reason why you2 can't give full and truthful testimony today?3 A No reason.4 Q Excellent. Can you tell me a little bit about5 what you did to prepare for today's deposition?6 A Just reviewed some of the previous depositions7 I made regarding voting procedure, process8 suits. That's -- that's about it. Just9 glancing through, you know, previous statements

10 I've made on this particular issue.11 Q And can you tell me when the last time you've12 given testimony on these issues was?13 A I believe I was deposed by the Attorney14 General's office -- well, actually, testimony,15 you know, e-mail back a deposition to the16 Attorney General's office. That was probably17 -- I'll tell you exactly when that was. Well,18 it was September of 2015. I don't have the19 exact date on here.20 Q Just to clarify, are you referring to your21 declaration or have you actually been deposed?22 A That was a declaration. Okay. Okay. That's23 correct. So the last time I was deposed on24 this particular issue, I don't think I've been25 deposed on this particular issue.

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1 Q So just to clarify, you reviewed your2 declaration --3 A Reviewed my declaration.4 Q -- in preparation? I understand.5 And other than your counsel have you6 discussed this litigation with anyone else?7 A Just the Lake County Prosecutor's Office8 because I know there had been some9 communication with them regarding the date and

10 time of this deposition, and they indicated to11 me, do you want us to accompany you, you know,12 provide legal counsel. And I said, I don't13 think that's necessary.14 Q Okay. Fair enough. Thank you.15 I'd like to talk a little bit about your16 professional background. Can you describe your17 educational background for the record?18 A I'm a graduate of the University of Dayton with19 a degree in political science, and that's --20 Bachelor of Arts is the highest level of my21 degree.22 Q Okay. And when did you graduate?23 A 1970.24 Q And moving to your professional background, can25 you tell us where you're currently employed?

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1 A Currently employed by the County of Lake, Ohio2 as an elected county commissioner.3 Q And how long have you been a member of the Lake4 County Commissioners?5 A This is my 17th year. I was elected in 19986 and have been re-elected four additional times.7 Q And prior to your election to the Commission8 what did you do?9 A I was a member of the Ohio General Assembly for

10 14 years, seven two-year terms in the Ohio11 House representing a district that comprised12 approximately half of Lake County, Ohio.13 Q Okay.14 A And prior to that I was a part-time city15 councilman and council president in the City of16 Willowick.17 Q Which is also in Lake County?18 A Lake County. Correct. And my private19 employment, which was during the city council20 days, the first couple years of legislature I21 was employed by a company called Professional22 Balance Company, which was technical23 engineering and adjustments in the building24 trades industry.25 Q Thank you. I'd like to learn a little bit

Page 9

1 about your time in the General Assembly. Could2 you tell us what committees you served on?3 A I served on -- of the 14 years I was there I4 served 12 years on the Finance and5 Appropriations Committee. I served all 146 years on the Ways and Means Committee of the7 House. I was chairman of the House Ways and8 Means Committee just for two years, '93 and9 '94.

10 When I was on the Finance and11 Appropriations Committee I chaired the12 education budget subcommittee of the Ohio House13 Finance and Appropriations Committee. I did14 that for two terms, 1980 and 19 -- no, 1989,15 '90, '91 and '92. Correct. And that was the16 subsection of the Finance and Appropriations17 Committee that dealt with all funding for18 primary, secondary and higher education.19 Q And while you were in the General Assembly, do20 you recall dealing with or discussing any21 issues relating to elections or voting?22 A Yes. I was -- actually my freshman year I was23 vice chairman of a committee that was at the24 time called the Elections and Townships25 Committee. How or why those two were put



Exhibit E




4 (Pages 10 to 13)

Page 10

1 together as two germane subject matter I don't2 know, but that was the committee elections3 call. So I was vice chairman of that committee4 for two years.5 I believe as a member of the General6 Assembly there were numerous pieces of7 elections, legislation that took place. I8 believe, you know, there was always a9 consideration of voting hours. I know there

10 were -- I think the 7:30 polling hour close was11 in effect when I became a member. Every once12 in a while someone introduced a measure to roll13 that back to 6:30. Those were discussed at14 committee.15 I believe -- one particular piece of16 legislature I do remember when then Secretary17 of State Taft, I think it was Senate Bill 8,18 and that was in the early, oh, 1990's, you19 know, and I don't remember the particular20 aspects of that particular legislation except21 that it did update a lot of Ohio election laws22 in terms of campaign finance, reporting in23 terms of limitations on that, and, again, a24 myriad of issues I think were contained in that25 particular legislation. It was fairly omnibus

Page 11

1 in terms of some of the matters it dealt with.2 Q Did you ever sponsor any legislation related to3 voting issues or elections?4 A Yes. I think a couple -- I do remember5 sponsoring legislation that would restrict when6 renewal levies could be placed on the ballot.7 It was brought to my attention by my Board of8 Elections that there was really nothing9 statutory limiting when someone could seek a

10 renewal. So they might be two and a half years11 out from the expiration of the renewal of that12 levy going to the ballot, and the concern was13 there were other entities on the ballot that14 year that really needed or really were kind of15 the drop-dead term date in terms of voter16 approval for their funding requests.17 So I'd introduce legislation that said18 you could not seek a renewal levy or put one on19 the ballot except in the calendar year -- the20 last calendar year in which the levy was21 currently being collected. And that did not22 get through in that form, so I had to amend it23 to also include or the November election24 immediately preceding the year in which the25 levy could be placed on the ballot. So I

Page 12

1 remember that one. And did with that2 compromise successfully get that enacted.3 I'm trying to remember if I had any other4 -- I mean, I did have a constitutional5 amendment, which was placed before the voters,6 it was approved basically creating a mechanism7 for replacing the office of Lieutenant Governor8 should that office become vacant, because prior9 to that if the office of Lieutenant Governor

10 became vacant there was no mechanism to fill11 that. And we went through a couple of periods12 there where there was no sitting Lieutenant13 Governor.14 So, I mean, that was a joint resolution I15 wrote and sponsored and submitted and it16 received the necessary 60 votes, 60 percent of17 both houses, got to the ballot and was approved18 by the voters.19 I -- I think the only other thing20 election law related was there's a mechanism in21 Ohio law called he Data Board at the county22 level which determines technological issues in23 terms of what computers to buy, what particular24 software and all that, and it's made up of25 representatives of various entities, and one of

Page 13

1 them was the Board of Elections, and I believe2 I carried legislation because there was a3 concern by the Board of Elections who their4 representative would be.5 So in the interest of fairness, the6 legislation designated -- there were two7 representatives on the Data Board from the8 Board of Elections, one being a Democrat, one9 being a Republican. So apparently partisanship

10 descended to that level too, so.11 Q Other than those --12 A Nothing that I can recall at this point.13 Q Okay. Do you recall any specific legislative14 efforts discussing or dealing with issues15 related to voter access?16 A Just -- just I think the hours of voting, and17 that was when we were still in the no fault18 absentee -- or we had the fault absentee19 ballot. The only early voting we had was20 absentee ballots, but you had to have a reason21 amongst the -- a list of reasons. You had to22 be out of the county on election day, you're23 going to be hospitalized, you're disabled,24 unable to get to the polls, et cetera.25 So no, I don't remember anything other



Exhibit E




5 (Pages 14 to 17)

Page 14

1 than occasional attempts to -- I believe it was2 a representative from Cincinnati area that3 would introduce this legislation and did it for4 a couple of sessions in a row basically arguing5 that the voter turnout between the hours of6 6:30 and 7:30 p m. was relatively minimal, so7 you know, why don't we reduce the hours the8 poll workers have and just go back to 6:309 because are we really, you know, are we really

10 accommodating a lot of people between that last11 hour and all that.12 But that -- and the Secretary of State's13 office usually would come in and, you know,14 pose that on the basis that it's limiting15 existing voter access. So that really never16 went anywhere.17 Q Let's talk a little bit about your role with18 the Commission. Can you describe your19 responsibilities as a commissioner?20 A Well, you know, everything we do is basically21 spelled out in Ohio Revised Code. We're22 creatures of statute as to what we do. You23 know, we're basically in charge of the budget24 for all of the county operations. We are25 responsible for making sure that the

Page 15

1 wherewithal to provide the services that are2 provided, whether it's the treasurer's office,3 recorder's office, engineer's office,4 prosecutor's office, the courts, the5 wherewithal, the necessary resources and, you6 know, the necessary equipment is in place, you7 know, to perform those particular functions.8 And then we have certain appointing9 authorities to certain county boards of

10 commission, whether it's ADAMHS Board, or11 Developmentally Disabled Board. We have a12 community college, we appoint six of the nine13 members of the Community College Board of14 Trustees. The governor appoints three. And15 that's -- that's pretty much -- we manage the16 -- I've always said the county government is17 really not so much a local government as it is18 a local branch of state government.19 If you go to 88 different counties,20 they're pretty much all performing the same21 required functions: Administering courts,22 elections, and recording and valuing and23 collecting taxes on property, making sure the24 county roads and bridges are taken care of,25 making sure that those who run afoul are

Page 16

1 properly prosecuted through the prosecutor's2 office, adjudicated through the court system3 and then, if necessary, incarcerated in a4 county facility.5 So, and again, these are things that6 happen whichever county seat you go into, and7 so -- so it's pretty much the commissioner's8 job to make sure that we work as harmoniously9 as possible with the separately elected

10 officials that had a lot of those departments11 to make sure that the wherewithal to do12 everything is there.13 And obviously, one of them, since we're14 on this subject, includes that we are15 responsible for funding the cost and operation16 of conducting elections through the elections17 board system, which exists in all 88 counties.18 Q Okay. And I'll turn to your role with the BOE19 in a second, but just quickly, how many20 commissioners are there?21 A There's three. Yeah.22 Q So you mentioned your responsibility in terms23 of funding the elections?24 A Uh-huh.25 Q Is one of your responsibilities setting the

Page 17

1 budget for the Lake County Board of Elections?2 A Absolutely. We have to enact an annual budget,3 calendar year budget by April the 1st of every4 year, indicating the authorized spending for5 all of the departments within the county.6 Q Can you describe how that process comes to be?7 Do you originate the budget or does the BOE8 recommend a budget to you?9 A No. Our budget personnel will start in the

10 fall, and actually we'll start in maybe mid11 year asking for preliminary budget requests12 from all the various departments and asking13 them to, you know, justify any significant14 changes. Basically list what capital15 improvements, what equipment needs to be16 replaced or needs to be acquired indicating --17 some cases asking them to indicate, okay, what18 do you foresee needing in a year or two in19 terms of equipment, stuff like that.20 And then they will -- they will prepare21 -- the budget people will prepare a budget for22 the Board of County Commissioners that suggest23 a budget. Obviously having to live within the24 certificate of resources, which is the dollar25 amount that the county auditor certifies to the



Exhibit E




6 (Pages 18 to 21)

Page 18

1 commissioners is available for appropriation.2 And with -- as with anything else, if our3 significant resources is $60 million, for4 example, we don't want to budget 59.9 million.5 We always like to leave about a, you know, 3 to6 5 percent carryover into the next year.7 And a lot of that isn't absolutely8 necessary because you have expenditures9 starting on the first of the year, but you

10 don't have tax settlements coming in that11 quickly so you really have to have that12 carryover balance.13 And so if the departments are not --14 rather than having budget meetings with15 everybody, we've kind of developed a policy the16 last few years if the departments are not happy17 or have some concerns about what has been18 proposed by the budget director to the Board of19 County Commissioners, they are asked would you20 like to have a budget hearing, you know, and21 then they will come in.22 And normally every year we do have a23 budget hearing regardless of the Board of24 Elections because of the significant changes25 that have been taking place lately. You know,

Page 19

1 the expansion of early voting, the additional2 weekend, evening hours, the continuing3 inability or difficulty in acquiring sufficient4 poll workers to work the polling places. And5 the changing situation in terms of election6 equipment itself, being we have direct7 recording electronic machines and the fact that8 like everything else with technology, these9 things become outdated a lot more rapidly than

10 the old heavy metal tank type lever machines11 that we used to have.12 And so -- so we do have a budget hearing13 every year and we basically ask our elections14 director, you know, to break down the needs.15 And I always tell her, now, I want to know what16 is statutorily required and separate that from17 what you'd like to have because we know what we18 have to, you know, fund and so we just want to19 make sure.20 Again, it's -- it's a planning process,21 and the trouble with elections funding is you22 have this roller coaster because of the23 different -- the different responsibilities, or24 not responsibilities, the different activity25 depending on what year it is. You know, it's,

Page 20

1 you know, not as -- not as intense of an2 operation odd numbered years as it is in the3 even numbered years. And we always have the4 uncertainty over when special elections are5 going to be asked for.6 Now, special elections, you know, I think7 we're getting -- I think we did get a law8 changed where 70 percent of those could be9 billed back to the requesting -- no, they are

10 all billed back to the requesting entity, but11 the way it works now is that if it's a special12 election, the county has to play bank. We have13 to fund them this year and then we get the14 reimbursement of the tax settlement next year.15 And I know there's been a change in the16 law, I think it's the same law that eliminated17 the February special election that said you18 would have to prepay I think 70 percent of the19 cost of an election when you request a special20 election.21 So it's a -- it's kind of a roller22 coaster in terms of funding and so it's --23 yeah, the commissioners are very involved in24 the budgeting process with the Board of25 Elections. And, again, I've expressed my

Page 21

1 concern over the years the uncertainty and the2 changing landscape is that, you know, this3 year's rules might not be next year's rules4 really complicates this budgeting process.5 Q Can you tell me what resources or funds the6 state contributes towards election7 administration?8 A Well, when we get -- when we get -- when we9 hopefully buy our new electronic poll books and

10 get 85 percent of those reimbursed by the State11 of Ohio, I think that will be the first actual12 infusion of state money into the local election13 process. I mean, they do -- they do -- when14 our state issues are on the ballot and there15 are advertising costs that have to be incurred16 by the local election, I believe the state now17 does pick up those advertising costs, but in18 terms of the general operation of elections,19 you know, it's -- it's pretty much the20 responsibility of the county's general fund.21 Q Can you tell me a little bit about Lake County?22 What's your population?23 A Population is approximately 230,000.24 Q And do you know how many registered voters you25 have?



Exhibit E




7 (Pages 22 to 25)

Page 22

1 A Somewhere in the neighborhood -- I think it's2 154,000.3 Q And can you describe the demographics of the4 county in terms of how does that population5 break down, let's say, racially?6 A The population is -- it's a fairly suburban7 population. The great expansion of population8 in Lake County took place in the '50s, '60s and9 '70s, and primarily folks moving from

10 Cleveland, so it's a fairly Caucasian11 population.12 I believe the minority population is13 probably less than 10 percent, and I think of14 that 10 percent it's a little bit heavier15 Hispanic population in the Painesville/eastern16 Lake County area primarily because the nursery17 industry in eastern Lake County has always18 utilized a lot of migrant workers, a lot of19 them have, you know, become settled in Lake20 County. I'm sure some legally, some illegally.21 And the minority population22 African/American is primarily the City of23 Painesville. Probably about 25 percent of the24 City of Painesville is African/American, and25 it's just really scattered, you know,

Page 23

1 throughout the other communities. But it's --2 I would say it's probably, you know, 90 plus3 percent Caucasian.4 Q And do you know what the median income is?5 A I really don't know. I know that we used to be6 fairly high. We used to be in the top ten in7 the state. I think we're probably more in the8 mid teens right now. I'm thinking, you know,9 somewhere -- somewhere between 45 and 55,000.

10 But you know, I could find that data quickly,11 but I mean it's -- yeah.12 Q And do you know what percentage of your13 population is below the poverty line?14 A More than it used to be. We used to have one15 of the lower poverty rates in the State of16 Ohio. Probably in the area of 10 percent.17 Q And what's your largest city?18 A Largest city is City of Mentor. 40 --19 approximately 48,000 people.20 Q And how big is Painesville?21 A Painesville is about 19,000 people.22 Q So we talked a little bit about both your time23 in the General Assembly and now as a24 commissioner?25 A Right.

Page 24

1 Q The sense of experience you've had overseeing2 budgets and understanding sort of the3 requirements of funding and putting on an4 election. Other than that do you have any5 experience with election administration or6 observing elections?7 A Well, not directly observing elections. You8 know, I do work very closely with our Board of9 Elections. I have appeared and spoken to

10 regional and statewide conference of the Ohio11 Association of Election Officials. A lot of12 that results from the fact that I was president13 of the County Commissioners Association in Ohio14 in 2008 and that's right around the time where15 there was a lot of change taking place in the16 election process. Right around the time of a17 change to no fault absentee balloting, a change18 which really is what early voting is.19 I mean, a lot of people, all early voting20 is is absentee balloting because you still have21 to fill out the absentee ballot form to early22 vote. But you know, and the -- you know, the23 Board of Elections becoming, you know, more of24 an early voting center.25 So, you know, observing that, but from

Page 25

1 the perspective of the County Commissioners2 Association has always said, you know, we don't3 -- we don't run elections, we don't administer4 elections, we really don't have a desire to do5 that, but we do have to pay for them.6 And so, you know, I always like to say7 that like any other element of my budget, if8 all of a sudden something is costing me more9 money every year, I need to know, why is that?

10 What is driving that? And then what is the11 cost versus benefit ratio of that? I mean,12 what -- what has it proved as a result of the13 additional expenditure of money.14 And so, again, as president of the County15 Commissioners Association I was hearing a lot16 of that from commissioners throughout the state17 that there were concerns about certain aspects18 of election spending, you know, and that ranged19 from, you know, the cost of, you know, being20 open for early voting, primarily a lot of21 increase in postage costs because the -- the22 early voting process, you know, obviously23 drives a lot of increased postage cost because24 so many more people requesting the absentee25 ballot that weren't eligible before because



Exhibit E




8 (Pages 26 to 29)

Page 26

1 they didn't have a legitimate reason.2 So that has really inflated the budget,3 at least from the postage area, and that's a4 roller coaster. So that's going to be a lot5 higher in an even number year than an odd6 number year.7 So various concerns about that, I mean,8 not so much on voter, but even I know the9 commissioner from Tuscarawas County was always

10 concerned because, you know, the statutory pay11 that is prescribed for poll workers on election12 day is set in state law. There's a minimum and13 there's a maximum you can pay poll workers.14 But then, you know, he was concerned because,15 you know, his Board of Elections said, yeah, we16 can't increase the pay, but where my county17 pays 20 or $30.00 to show up for training18 session, he was concerned because his Board19 just said, well, we'll pay them $100 for20 training session or something like that. You21 know, so that training area was not regulated.22 So it was just concerns by, you know,23 members of my association being brought to my24 attention as the president saying that, you25 know, we've got -- we've got things out there

Page 27

1 that are, you know, problematic in terms of --2 and I know in Lake County, I'm right next door3 to Cuyahoga County here, and I start hearing4 from poll workers I know, they say, hey, how5 come those folks down in Cuyahoga County get6 $75 for showing up for their training session7 and, you know, we only get 25 or 30 here in8 Lake County. And, you know, I have -- I have9 no other response except saying, well, they

10 probably have more money down there. I don't11 know.12 Q So just to be clear --13 A Yeah.14 Q -- all those issues also are related to either15 fiscal issues or budgetary issues?16 A Well, fiscal issues, budget issues, right, and17 then -- yeah, but I think it goes back to the18 fact that, you know, when I see increased19 expenditures, increased, you know, and I can20 say, and if we have to spend this money, you21 know, is the voting experience improved, does22 it generate additional access to the polls by23 people who normally would not access the polls.24 You know, and that -- that's where I've25 been having a problem, you know, with a lot of

Page 28

1 these things over the years and that's why, you2 know, I've spoken up on them and that's why3 I've testified on various issues in front of4 the legislature.5 I did testify on the measure that6 eliminated the February special election7 because I said, you know, we had an election in8 Lake County where we had a 6.1 percent turnout.9 You know, that's not what democracy is supposed

10 to be about. And you know, for whatever reason11 that was, and especially when it's property tax12 issues I say, you know, you can't collect the13 money until next year anyway, so you could very14 easily go to the ballot in May or go to the15 ballot in November but, you know, the response16 I usually get is, you know, but if it fails we17 can go back again. I said, well, I wish I had18 that opportunity when I'm running for election,19 but they won't let me go back and retry.20 So yeah, that particular aspect, but I21 did testify and I know it's -- I think it's22 become an issue again, there was a 2006 law23 that was passed that indicated you needed to24 purchase so many DRE machines for every I think25 it was 175 registered voters. It was a statute

Page 29

1 enacted in '06.2 No fault absentee balloting came after3 that fact. So we weren't getting as much4 pressure on the -- on election day in terms of5 lines, in terms of needing equipment because so6 many of the folks had taken advantage of the7 early voting opportunity, but that law was8 still in effect that would have said by the end9 of 2013 my county would have had to buy 200,000

10 more dollars in voting machines, which we11 absolutely didn't need.12 And so there was a law change proposed, I13 think it was an amendment to a bill in the14 Senate, I did go down and testify in the House15 and the Senate on that and basically said, you16 know, it's -- it's a law that maybe made sense17 under the circumstances in '06, but it's not18 needed in '08, you know, and, you know, I get19 questions like, well, don't you see, you know,20 long lines occurring as a result of this being21 repealed? And I said, "No."22 And I don't think there's any empirical23 evidence that, you know, that reinstating that24 has any impact. It's just basically asking me25 to spend an additional 200 to $250,000 out of



Exhibit E




9 (Pages 30 to 33)

Page 30

1 my general fund budget, which I don't see any2 benefit from that expenditure being paid.3 Q Let me ask you a little bit about that. In4 your time in Lake County, to your knowledge5 have voters ever had to wait in line to vote on6 election day?7 A Well, yeah, there's -- there's always lines.8 It depends -- a lot of it depends on the9 timing, you know, I mean, there's certain --

10 there's certain peak voting times. Usually11 between maybe, you know, 6:30 and 7:30 people12 voting, you know, before they go to work. You13 see peak voting times, you know, right after --14 right around rush hour, people coming in.15 It's just -- but, you know, nothing --16 the only -- the longest lines I remember were17 in 1992. 1992 when -- that was a presidential18 election. That was -- that was the race19 between George Bush, the first, and Clinton and20 Ross Perot and that was then.21 The other time I have seen or experienced22 long lines in my particular voting locations,23 if there are a significant number of issues on24 the ballot, charter amendments, maybe state25 constitutional amendments, and some voters must

Page 31

1 read all of the language in there on the2 ballot.3 So, you know, it depends -- a lot of4 times long lines are created, again, this is5 just opinion, my opinion, is it the facilities6 available, is it the access available, or is it7 the ballot design? In other words, if there's8 a significant menu that the voter has to go9 through, that's going to extend the time that

10 they are in the voting booth, you know, that,11 you know, that may have an impact. But nothing12 where I've heard that, you know, people left.13 I mean, I have had people say, I went by14 there on the way to work, I saw it was lined up15 so I said, I'll stop by after work. So I don't16 know of any -- but I've never heard of anybody17 saying the lines were so long I said the heck18 with it and I went home.19 Q Okay.20 A So, but nothing that I can recall, you know,21 anyone saying, you know, I stood in line for22 three, four, five hours, or anything like that.23 I mean, I'm sure there were times over the24 years, I haven't noticed them lately with the25 early voting, it's really -- I mean, the

Page 32

1 longest lines that I've seen in the last few2 years in Lake County have been the day before3 an election, the early voting lines that are4 lining up in the Board of Elections to take5 advantage of the early voting because they6 don't want to stand in line the next day at the7 polls.8 Well, I have news for them. If they show9 up at the polls the next day there are no lines

10 because they were all there yesterday.11 So no, I don't sense that taking place12 election day. I've never really, you know,13 heard, you know, anyone, again, there are14 certain times, you know, if you go shopping on15 Black Friday, you know, there's probably going16 to be long lines, but you're not limited to17 just shopping on that day.18 And I think Ohio's done a great job, I19 think we're one of the top ten states in the20 nation in terms of we've got really expanded21 opportunities for people to access the polls.22 Q Do you recall whether Lake County had long line23 problems on election day in 2004?24 A I don't recall any long lines on election day25 2004 in Lake County.

Page 33

1 Q How about '08?2 A '08. I think my Board of Elections people,3 again, I don't monitor -- at that time we4 probably had 162 precincts. I don't monitor5 each and every one of those, but I have heard6 that in presidential election years the only7 time we've had, you know, the long lines have8 been no more than a half an hour.9 Q And what year was that, the half hour line?

10 A That would have been '04, '08.11 Q Both those?12 A Yeah. Yeah. Now, again, as I said before, the13 longest lines I did observe, because my office14 is on the fourth floor and the Board of15 Elections is on the first floor, is the day16 before election. There are long lines for17 people lining up to early vote the day before18 the election.19 Q You referenced earlier your role I think20 several years ago as the president of the Ohio21 County Commissioners --22 A Association.23 Q -- Association?24 A Uh-huh.25 Q In that role, in your conversations with your



Exhibit E




10 (Pages 34 to 37)

Page 34

1 counterparts and colleagues from across the2 state --3 A Right.4 Q -- have you heard of problems that voters in5 other counties may have had in terms of6 standing in long lines at elections?7 A You know, may have briefly heard of that from I8 think -- actually, I've heard of it more in9 terms of, again, the early voting

10 opportunities. Not election day, you know, I11 know they -- in talking to, you know,12 Commissioner O'Grady in Franklin County, you13 know, I think when we had early voting over at14 the Veterans Memorial Auditorium there, you15 know, there were significant line problems16 there. But again, that was part of the early17 voting process. That wasn't part of the, you18 know, election day process.19 So, again, you know, occurring in20 presidential election years. But I -- I don't21 specifically hear, you know, more times I hear22 the other stories is that my Board of Elections23 had to stay open two evenings this week and24 nobody showed up.25 Q Okay.

Page 35

1 A So yeah.2 Q Are you familiar with the term Golden Week?3 A Yes. Yes.4 Q What does it mean?5 A Golden Week meant that the early voting --6 voter registration deadline in Ohio is 30 days7 before the election, and the previous statute8 indicated that you could start early voting 359 days before the election. So technically you

10 had a five-day period in there where you could11 register and vote at the same time.12 Q And do you know when Golden Week started?13 A Not specifically. I think it was the '08 -- I14 think -- I'm trying to think. I think it was15 '08.16 Q Okay.17 A Okay.18 Q Do you know how many people took advantage of19 Golden Week in Lake County in 2012?20 A No. No, I do not. I do know that there was --21 well, I also teach part time a political22 science course at Lakeland Community College,23 state and local government, and I know one of24 the key things is why is there voter25 registration, and the primary reason there's

Page 36

1 voter registration is to guard against fraud.2 Make sure that, you know, people can vote but3 can only vote once and all that.4 So -- and I tended to agree with the Ohio5 Association of Elections Officials that, you6 know, having a situation where you register and7 vote at the same time, you know, could be a8 little bit problematic because sometimes voter9 registrations have to be checked for

10 authenticity that they're not registered11 somewhere else, that they're not -- that they12 do in fact live at the address they state and13 all that.14 So, you know, there's a reason we have15 voter registration and I think -- I don't16 disagree with the folks who say it was somewhat17 compromised by the fact that voter registration18 and actual voting could take place at the same19 time.20 Q What is your understanding of the process of21 how those ballots were counted when they were22 cast during Golden Week? In other words,23 somebody comes in to register and they cast a24 ballot, what is your understanding of how that25 registration was processed and when that ballot

Page 37

1 was counted?2 A I really don't know. You know, again, they may3 be -- I don't know exactly if they are required4 to vote provisionally, or if they just5 basically vote a ballot like any other early6 voter coming in, filling out an absentee ballot7 form and getting the ballot for their8 particular precinct to vote on it.9 - - - - -

10 (Plaintiff's Exhibit No. DT1 was marked.)11 - - - - -12 Q Mr. Troy, I'm giving you a document that's been13 marked as Exhibit DT 1. Can you take a moment14 to look that over?15 A Okay.16 Q And if I could --17 A Oh, is there more on the back?18 Q Yeah.19 A Okay. Okay.20 Q You can hold onto that.21 Mr. Troy, what I have handed you is22 Directive 2012-36 from the office of the23 Secretary of State. Does this document spell24 out the process by which registrations and25 ballots cast during Golden Week are to be



Exhibit E




11 (Pages 38 to 41)

Page 38

1 processed?2 A It does. It does point out in fairly3 convoluted process.4 Q If I could draw your attention to the last5 paragraph on the front page and footnote 1.6 A Yeah.7 Q I believe you said earlier that Lake County8 uses DRE machines?9 A Correct.

10 Q So if I could draw your attention to11 footnote 1, that spells out the process for12 Boards that use DRE machines. Is it your13 understanding --14 A They don't -- well, let me just -- we use DRE15 machines on election day, okay? We do not use16 -- they are filling out a -- what do they call17 them, opti-scan ballots. Absentee voting18 process is they are given a ballot and then19 they are told to color in the circle next to20 the candidate or their vote yes or no on a21 particular issue.22 Q In that case can I point you to the last23 paragraph of page 1?24 A Uh-huh.25 Q So looking at this paragraph, is it your

Page 39

1 understanding that ballots cast during Golden2 Week are segregated?3 MS. PIERCE: Objection.4 Foundation. He's just looked at this today.5 You can answer.6 A Well, according to this it indicates that the7 Board must segregate the ballots from all8 others cast by voters. So in other words, it9 appears to me that they'll have to operate, for

10 lack of a better term, two boxes. Okay. You11 were registered before, you came here to vote,12 here, you fill out your ballot, you filled it,13 you signed your name, it went into this box.14 You registered and then we gave you a ballot15 and you voted, so I have to put yours in that16 box. All that. Okay.17 Q Now, turning to the second page, does this18 spell out the process by which those people who19 register and cast a ballot the same time their20 registration is verified?21 MS. PIERCE: Objection.22 Foundation.23 A I -- it's a directive from the Secretary of24 State. It spells out some process involving it25 appears an additional expenditure of postage,

Page 40

1 and you know, and then it basically, you know,2 sends out a card to someone. And if it hasn't3 been returned and it's, you know, if it hasn't4 been returned as undeliverable by the tenth day5 before the election, then basically it says,6 well, this is a legitimate vote. Is that what7 I read in the third point? "If the8 acknowledgment card so marked has not been9 returned as undeliverable by the tenth day

10 before the election, the otherwise complete and11 valid identification envelope shall be opened12 and the ballot included in the unofficial13 canvass."14 Q That's the third bullet. And if you look at15 the first bullet and read that.16 A Okay. "If the confirmation card is returned to17 the Board of Elections by the voter confirming18 the address provided at the time of19 registration is the voter's residence, then the20 otherwise complete and valid identification21 envelope shall be opened and the ballot22 included in the unofficial canvass."23 Q So is your understanding that this provides a24 period of time before the ballot is counted --25 A Yeah.

Page 41

1 Q -- during which a registration can be verified?2 A It -- I guess to some degree, yeah. If you3 know, I personally see some, you know, some4 holes in the verification process here, but you5 know, doesn't --6 Q You mentioned voter fraud as a concern. Are7 you aware of any cases of voter fraud in Lake8 County?9 A No. I think voter fraud is, you know, fairly

10 -- fairly insignificant. I mean, there are --11 we have had situations where, you know, people12 have, for whatever reason, attempted to vote in13 Lake County when they are, in fact, registered14 elsewhere or may, in fact, be living in another15 state somehow have registered there and all16 that.17 I don't know how many of these are18 willful, but I think the -- the whole concept19 of voter registration is I think to make sure20 that, you know, clarifies that the person, you21 know, meets the requirements of an elector,22 that they are at least 18 years of age, that23 they are a resident of the jurisdiction of24 which they live because they're going to make25 decisions affecting that decision, and you



Exhibit E




12 (Pages 42 to 45)

Page 42

1 know, and then to, you know, they -- they are2 recorded by some process that they voted to3 ensure that, you know, nobody votes again.4 I don't know what would happen, you know,5 if -- and I'm not -- but I mean, if there were6 no voter registrations and, you know, everybody7 was an honor system to vote, I mean,8 unfortunately there's usually a lot at stake in9 the political process and so who knows what

10 behavior might ensue.11 Q You referred to a situation that you know of12 where somebody registered in a different county13 and attempted to vote in Lake County. I14 believe you said also somebody voted in Lake15 County and lived in a different state?16 A Yeah.17 Q Do you recall when those were?18 A I think there was one in the '14 election, but19 I think it got cleared up, you know, again,20 there were, you know, maybe a half a dozen21 incidents in Lake County and all that. I don't22 know if any of them have been recommended for23 progression or anything like that.24 So I don't think -- I don't think voter25 fraud is -- in my opinion I don't think voter

Page 43

1 fraud is a problem because I think a good2 registration process should be in place to3 prevent that.4 Q Okay. We spoke a little bit earlier about the5 use of DRE machines in Lake County?6 A Right.7 Q When did you start using those?8 A Which time? We have a little unique history in9 Lake County. We had -- we had the old tank

10 lever machines. I mean, these just take up a11 huge amount of space. And we started having12 some problems right around the time between13 when I was in the legislature and becoming14 commissioner where we had -- we had15 mis-recording of votes, et cetera, because the16 way these -- when the day was done, the poll17 workers would go behind the machine, there was18 a mechanism they unlocked and they would slide19 a door and it would be like an odometer reading20 and they would read how many votes for each21 issue.22 There was an instance in one of my23 elections where instead of getting 088 votes in24 a particular precinct I got 008 because it just25 was recorded improperly. We actually had a

Page 44

1 commissioners election where as three different2 machines from a precinct were added up somebody3 didn't carry the 1, and instead of someone4 winning by 55 votes they lost by 45 votes5 because it changed by 100 and all that.6 So when I got elected in '99, or7 whenever, I said, it's time. We need to8 upgrade our equipment here in Lake County. I9 convinced my colleagues that we would put

10 together whatever general fund we have in bond11 out and told our Board of Elections go out and12 find state-of-the-art equipment.13 They went out and checked a lot of14 equipment. They decided on bringing in these15 -- Sequoia was the manufacturer, electronic16 machines, they were great machines because they17 had like the old phone -- the old phones with18 the button that you would indent to -- they had19 every candidate, every issue had an indentation20 next to their name, and when it was pushed, it21 lit up. And of course if you pushed another22 button in that same race it would un-push that23 one. So it guarded against any over-voting or24 really, well, yeah, you could vote -- you25 couldn't -- you couldn't I guess negate your

Page 45

1 ballot by, you know, vote for no more than two2 by voting for three, because it just wouldn't3 let you do that.4 And it was very well accepted by the5 citizenry, especially the senior citizens6 because it was a nice transition from what they7 had before. And we -- so we put about 800,0008 on that and then we bonded out 2.2 million, we9 bought $3 million worth of machines, everybody

10 loved them, they were -- we were done with11 counting elections by quarter to 9:00. Hour12 and 15 minutes after the polls ended and all13 that.14 And then they passed the HAVA act because15 of the results of the Florida and other area16 presidential election in 2000. I remember17 going to Congressman Ney and saying, can I get18 funding to reimburse me for the machines that I19 was progressive enough to buy a year before20 everything hit the fan? And they basically21 said, no, you can't do that. So, okay. So we22 lost there.23 Well, when HAVA was proceeding through24 the Ohio General Assembly implementation they25 added a provision that said there had to be a



Exhibit E




13 (Pages 46 to 49)

Page 46

1 voter verifiable paper audit trail as part of2 any direct recording electronic machine. We3 were unable to retrofit these particular4 machines to put that mechanism on.5 So, but, you know, we loved the machines,6 they worked perfectly, but our prosecutor says7 you now have machines, Dan, that are in8 violation of state law. You cannot use them9 and I cannot defend you if you choose to

10 violate state law.11 So we basically had to sell them off in12 scrap value. So then we got some money from13 HAVA, but we had to supplement with quite a bit14 of ours to buy an additional new set of15 electronic voting machines that had the voter16 verifiable paper trail. And so -- so we -- we17 got about $50,000 in scrap value for -- we18 still have to pay off the bonds for $3 million19 expenditure.20 So we started using electronic machines21 in 2000 and then we had to switch over to these22 other machines I believe in '04, '05 because23 this first set does not -- and --24 Q Can I just clarify one thing?25 A Yeah. Yeah.

Page 47

1 Q When you say, "The new machines," those are2 still electronic DRE machines?3 A DRE machines. Yeah. These are now -- I think4 ES&S is the manufacturer on these. They're not5 -- they're -- yeah. Yeah. They're a little6 different. The poll workers, the voters did7 not think they were as user friendly as the8 ones that we had to get rid of. And so, you9 know, so we basically were a victim of the old

10 machines would have qualified under HAVA except11 the state put a stipulation in there that, you12 know, we couldn't administer with these13 machines. So that's why we had to basically14 chuck them and buy new machines.15 Q Again, just to clarify --16 A That's why when I get people saying that we got17 a new law where you're going to have to buy new18 machines, I get pretty upset.19 Q Just to clarify, the -- what you said you were20 not able to retrofit was to upgrade the21 machines to incorporate the --22 A Incorporate a voter verifiable paper audit23 trail. Right.24 Q What is your understanding why that requirement25 was put in?

Page 48

1 A Apparently, my opinion, to guard against the2 conspiracy that the machine would not record3 what you had actually asked the machine to4 record in terms of your preferences for5 candidates or issues.6 What I gather from that, you know, if7 someone -- if someone can jimmy the machine to8 do that, I'm sure they can jimmy the verifiable9 paper audit trail mechanism to do the same

10 thing and all that. I mean, it's just, it's11 there, you hear it whirring after you cast your12 ballot and all that. I probably can count on13 two hands the number of people I've talked to14 that actually have ever looked at it, but it's15 there.16 Q Aside from the scenario, to use your word,17 somebody jimmying the machine --18 A Yeah.19 Q -- are there any other reasons by which a20 machine tally may be different than what the21 voter intended?22 A I -- you know, again, I'm not aware of that.23 You know, there -- you know, you're basically24 getting a warranty from the manufacturer as to25 what the machine, you know, it is -- they are

Page 49

1 -- they are tested, you know, prior to election2 by our Board of Elections personnel. They are3 randomly tested to, you know, basically, you4 know, run kind of a mock election for them just5 to try and, you know, determine if there is --6 and I have not heard of any -- any, you know,7 any situation where they have not recorded what8 they tried to do.9 About the only thing that ever, you know,

10 again, is voters -- these particular machines11 don't guard as well against under vote and over12 vote. I do know they indicate, when I'm done,13 is that you have not voted in every race, you14 know, do you wish to go back to the ballot.15 So it let's you know that you've missed16 some races there, and obviously, for whatever17 reason, candidate running unopposed to18 something, you know, you just don't choose to19 vote for in an unopposed race or something like20 that. And then in terms of the over voting,21 again, I don't know, I've never personally22 tried to over vote to see what the machine23 tells me.24 So, you know, but no, I haven't -- you25 know, if anything it's, you know, the only



Exhibit E




14 (Pages 50 to 53)

Page 50

1 problem might be user malfunction or something2 like that, you know.3 Q You mentioned the manufacturer's warranty and4 the testing of the machines prior to their use?5 A Yeah.6 Q To your knowledge did the old tank machines7 that you earlier testified mis-recorded votes,8 were those also under manufacture warranty and9 were those tested?

10 A You know, not -- not that I know of. I don't11 know if, you know, machinery was -- it was that12 closely regulated by the State of Ohio at the13 time. I mean, these things went back to, you14 know, World War II days and all that.15 And again, it was basically, you went in16 and you took this big lever and the curtain17 closed behind you and then you pulled down18 these levers. And then when you were done you19 went back and I guess was a little bit of faith20 that, you know, what was -- but there was the21 complication then of the problem of the -- and22 a very -- I've seen -- they were very tiny23 letters and, you know, poll workers tend to be24 of the aged end of our population and so some25 difficulty in terms of that.

Page 51

1 So a lot of this has been, you know,2 we've not heard any -- since we have been doing3 DRE's we have not heard any complaints about,4 you know, that something went wrong, something5 -- I know they tested an electronic voting6 machine before we went to the DRE's back in the7 mid '90s for just a special election in one8 community, but it was one of these push button9 machines where you pushed the screen.

10 And there was a significant number of11 voters -- it was one issue, or one race,12 significant number of voters who voted, but13 nothing was recorded. So there was a -- and14 that's why when we went to the electronic15 machines we went to the push button because16 what it was is senior citizens, you know, are17 not used to making choices on a screen. So18 they may have gone boom boom, and if you boom19 boom you vote and you take the vote off again20 and all that.21 So, you know, we try to make sure these22 things are as user friendly as possible.23 Q I guess my question is is it possible that24 machine malfunction would be another reason why25 you would need a paper audit?

Page 52

1 MS. PIERCE: Objection.2 Foundation.3 A I'm really, you know, again, not knowing what4 the machine malfunction would be and what the,5 you know, again, the paper audit trail is6 coming out of the same piece of machinery. So,7 again, I don't know, you know, how these things8 are manufactured, how they're tested to make9 sure that these are operating totally

10 independent of each other, so.11 Q But when the paper audit is generated, does12 that give the voter an opportunity to make sure13 that what it says on the paper is what the14 voter intended?15 A If the voter chooses to. Again, I don't know16 if more than a dozen voters I've ever talked to17 since that's been in place in Lake County18 almost ten years have indicated to me that they19 even look at it. A lot of times, what is that20 thing that's whirring down there in the lower21 left-hand corner. So yeah.22 Q Okay. Do you know of any other problems,23 breakdowns, maintenance issues that Lake County24 has encountered with their DRE machines?25 A No. Because I think the proper maintenance is

Page 53

1 done. I mean, we -- whether we need them or2 not, periodically we at the request of Board of3 Elections expend dollars to replace all the4 batteries in case there is, you know, a public5 utility electronic meltdown and all that. But6 no, no -- no instances where, you know, the7 machine's jamming up or something. You know,8 there may be a case for whatever, you know, and9 usually they'll have a couple of them at every

10 polling place and all that. And if for some11 reason there's a problem with one machine12 they'll just take it out of commission right at13 the beginning there, so.14 Q You referred earlier to the machines getting15 older. Do you know if the maintenance costs go16 up as the machines get older?17 A Well, the problem is the warranty -- the18 warranty on the equipment by the manufacturers,19 I mean, they, you know, they're only going to20 -- they're not going to make replacement parts21 and things on that after a certain period of22 time.23 Again, I'm not doing this. I -- we have24 a joint committee between the County25 Commissioners Association, which I'm on with



Exhibit E




15 (Pages 54 to 57)

Page 54

1 Commissioner Metzger, Commissioner Lee, and I2 think Commissioner Lieberman, and it's a joint3 committee with representatives of the Ohio4 Association of Elections Officials, and again,5 they're on the frontline. They're saying, you6 know, they think that the present machinery7 they have, you know, with paper clips or bubble8 gum or whatever, they will be able to get9 through the 2016 election, but, you know, after

10 that they don't know.11 And that's why the County Commissioner's12 Association and the OEA -- Ohio Association of13 Elections Officials I know had a meeting last14 week with the Secretary of State. We're having15 a meeting I think next week with the state16 budget director, Mr. Keen, to basically make a17 big ask in an upcoming state capitol bill in18 2016 for, you know, funding for replacement of19 this particular machinery, along the same line20 of the dollars that we got on the electronic21 poll books, which were approved in the budget22 where there will be a chair. It will be a23 match between the state, but asking the state24 to help out.25 So, again, I'm -- they're saying that the

Page 55

1 machines and the technology, et cetera, is2 getting to the point where, you know, they have3 to be replaced. You know, again, why they wear4 out, I don't know.5 Q Just a couple clarification questions. When6 you say, "they," who are you referring to?7 A The Ohio Association of Elections Officials.8 These are the -- the board members, the9 bipartisan board members. Two D's, two R's

10 from each county and the director and deputy11 director.12 Q And the additional funding you're talking13 about, that would be in 2016, but not in time14 for the 2016 election; is that correct?15 A Yeah, that would be correct. Yeah. Yeah.16 Q All right. And when you referred to they'll17 get through it with paper clips and chewing18 gum, that was a reference to the maintenance of19 the machines?20 A That's -- that may have been, you know, that21 was just kind of a, you know, statement from22 one or two of them and all that is that, you23 know, we'll make -- basically said we'll make24 it work. We'll make it work, but then, you25 know, we don't want to press our luck after

Page 56

1 2016 is basically what they're saying.2 That doesn't mean that they're going to3 be, you know, temporarily wiring these things4 up so that they work. I mean, I -- again, this5 is a very bipartisan group. It's as bipartisan6 as you can get. It's 3 D's, 3 R's from every7 county, a deputy director, director, four board8 members, and they seem to be, you know,9 basically, you know, on the same page on this.

10 And I think very conscientious that for11 some reason these things are questionable,12 they're not -- they're not going to allow the13 usage, you know, on the election process. If14 necessary, they will -- they will replace them15 with, you know, whatever less modern mechanism,16 whether that's paper ballots or whatever is17 necessary because they've indicated and I, you18 know, I really accept their statement that all19 we want to do is get it right.20 Q And have you had the same conversation within21 Lake County with respect to replacing your22 machines?23 A Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. Yes.24 Q And what is the plan in Lake County?25 A Well, the plan is the director of the Board of

Page 57

1 Elections has indicated that she would like to2 start an equipment replacement fund in the next3 budget. I said, well, you know, we understand4 where you're coming from. I think that, you5 know, we're going to strive to do that,6 obviously we're going to see what help we can7 get from the state and the federal government.8 I said, you know, traditionally9 commissioners don't like to set up separate

10 funds in separate entities because it's -- it's11 frustrating sometimes as commissioners that12 certain departments have special funds and then13 when they make a request, you say, well, why14 don't you use that special fund you have, you15 know, and they'll say, no, that's my fund for16 other stuff and all that.17 So, you know, it tends to -- it tends to,18 you know, impact the budget, the budgetary19 process. No, we've had that discussion.20 Right.21 Q So is your objection to the use of a separate22 designated fund or to the objective of23 replacing equipment?24 A No. Just the objective of setting up a -- in25 other words, start a fund and start depositing



Exhibit E




16 (Pages 58 to 61)

Page 58

1 money into it and all that.2 I mean, we're not -- we're not in that3 position financially where when we get to that4 point where, you know, we should have been5 putting money away in a rainy day fund for this6 replacement. I mean, when the time comes we'll7 address the issue. But we've certainly --8 certainly and through the state, so you know, a9 lot of counties are not in -- a lot of counties

10 don't have a lot of revenue streams. You know,11 we still have 88 counties in this state and12 some do very well, like Delaware, and some --13 some are really struggling financially and all14 that.15 So, you know, I think as an association16 we're looking at, you know, whatever external17 help we can get, you know, to address this and18 try and impress upon the General Assembly as19 I've always said that, you know, the core of20 our democracy is what happens on election day.21 This is -- this is what we're all about.22 This is where people determine who makes the23 decisions for them, this is where people24 determine what the rules are constitutionally25 or charter wise in your city and who makes the

Page 59

1 decisions on the state and the local level and2 federal level and all that.3 So, you know, it's -- it's worthy of a4 state investment, you know, to address these5 particular issues. And so that's -- that's6 kind of where -- so no, I'm not disputing the7 fact that, you know, at some point down the8 road -- but my particular Board of Elections is9 not saying we're in a critical state, we're

10 concerned about the reliability of these11 machines on election day.12 I think it's like everything else with13 technology. I mean, I'm kind of old school,14 and I have people come to me at budget time and15 say, we need to replace all our computers. And16 I say, well, we just bought you a whole slew of17 them eight years ago and all that. They look18 at you like, well, that's the last century, you19 know, in terms of technology and all that, so.20 Q So when you say, you know, financially some21 counties do well and some counties struggle,22 and that would be one reason why it would be23 helpful to have state funding, would it also be24 fair to say that for those counties that25 struggle, that there may be more opportunity

Page 60

1 for them to make those investments sooner if2 they had state funding?3 MS. PIERCE: Objection.4 Confusing.5 A Yeah, I really -- you know, again, I don't know6 at what, you know, yeah. I don't think anybody7 is saying right now -- I should maybe restate8 that. I don't think that anybody is saying9 right now, my God, if we had a bunch of money

10 right now, you know, we certainly wouldn't be11 operating this equipment we're operating today.12 I don't think anybody is saying that.13 They're just saying that we are14 forecasting that, you know, due to the fact15 that the replacement parts and mechanisms and16 the warranties from the manufacturers are not17 going to cover certain things after a certain18 date, you know, we're going to -- we're going19 to need something down the road, you know, to20 address this particular issue, so.21 Q Okay.22 A And the poor counties are going to need23 probably more help than others when they get to24 that point.25 Q Right. That was my question --

Page 61

1 A Yeah. Okay.2 Q -- whether the counties that have fewer3 financial resources --4 A Yeah.5 Q -- would benefit more from state funding in6 terms of investing in voter technology?7 A I mean, we're always stressing to the General8 Assembly that, you know, we're not the people9 that build the municipal swimming pools and/or

10 the ice skating rinks. What we do every day is11 what you tell us to do. We run courts, we run12 elections.13 So, you know, there has to be a little14 bit better understanding of the partnership15 that, you know, if you as the General Assembly16 of the state, you know, want to see things done17 properly, you know, you've got to work with us18 and make sure that regardless of the19 differentials under 88 branch locations that,20 you know, we're all kind of in place to have21 the wherewithal to perform what you want us to22 do.23 And, you know, sometimes it becomes24 frustrating, I've heard letters to the General25 Assembly, some I've served with, saying, I'm



Exhibit E




17 (Pages 62 to 65)

Page 62

1 tired of these whiny local government officials2 coming in here every two years with their hand3 out. And our argument has been, if you don't4 want to give us the money, then take away the5 responsibilities, because as long as we have6 the responsibility -- so that's.7 And again, you know, it goes back to this8 whole issue that, you know, since it is9 difficult sometimes to meet all these

10 responsibilities and you're scrambling for the11 proper dollars to do that, I mean, speaking as12 this commissioner, please prove to me that this13 additional expenditure, this additional expense14 actually has any resultant benefit other than15 the fact that I've spent more money.16 Q When you refer to within the 88 counties, the17 differential between the 88 counties and18 positioning them to have I think you said the19 wherewithal --20 A Yeah.21 Q -- to meet requirements imposed by the state,22 am I correct in understanding that the23 challenge that you articulate is that some24 states ask for more, I think you said every25 year, and other states have the same

Page 63

1 requirements? Is that -- am I understanding2 what you're saying?3 A No, I don't think I mentioned other states.4 Q I'm sorry. Not other states. Other counties.5 A There are a lot of states that fully fund the6 cost of elections.7 Q I don't mean other states. I was trying to8 understand what you meant by -- I think you9 said either when you were in the General

10 Assembly or somebody came to the General11 Assembly was referring to the differential in12 the counties and people coming with their hand13 out. Can you explain that?14 A Well, the fact is that the General Assembly --15 the state budget is pretty much an 85 percent16 pass through. You know, about 85 percent of17 the state money flows out, you know, flows to18 Jobs and Family Service Departments for, you19 know, Medicaid, Medicaid funding, TANA funding,20 et cetera, it flows to developmentally disabled21 boards, to ADAMHS boards, to things like that.22 So it really -- it's kind of a pass23 through. So I think the main idea of the24 General Assembly is at budget time, most of the25 people they're hearing from, school districts,

Page 64

1 school districts, colleges and universities2 throughout the state are for people saying, you3 know, I want a better shake in this coming up4 two-year budget.5 So the perception is, and I think kind of6 wrongly, is that, well, you know, they're all7 in there with their hand out and all that, but8 that's what your budget does. So you have to9 make sure that that system takes place.

10 Now, as I've said when I was president11 all along is that if you do not want to12 properly fund or give us the resources to13 perform the statutory functions that you want14 us to do, then rather than, you know, then we15 have to reform or we have to do some reform on16 the service model. And that's been frustrating17 because nobody ever wants to change anything.18 I mean, do we still need 88 counties and, you19 know, 88 county coroners and all that, or --20 Q Clarify what you mean by service model.21 A The service model is the method by which we22 deliver, you know, the statutory services that23 are required.24 The county government -- county25 government structure was basically adopted in

Page 65

1 the late 1800's and it really hasn't changed2 except for two counties in this state, Cuyahoga3 and Summit, which passed charter -- which4 passed charter county provisions on the ballot,5 in both cases, you know, probably primarily6 drawn by significant corruption that influenced7 the voters to change that and all that.8 So the structure pretty much is the same9 as it was, you know, back in the late 1800's

10 and so, you know, is there a way to modernize11 the structure, is there a way to modernize the12 way that we, you know, they always said there's13 88 county seats in Ohio because everybody14 needed to be one day and back by horseback to15 their county seat.16 You know, that doesn't exist today. You17 know, is it -- can whatever change is necessary18 -- is there a way to look at the overall way in19 which we conduct elections, you know, should it20 be centralized or should it be decentralized on21 a county-by-county basis and all that.22 Q And what is your opinion on that?23 A You know, I -- you know, I think as the24 technology advances, just like we're looking25 with electronic poll books, it used to be you



Exhibit E




18 (Pages 66 to 69)

Page 66

1 had to show up in your precinct because that2 was -- all the names were in that book in that3 precinct.4 Now the electronic poll books, electronic5 printing of ballots, I mean, you could -- you6 could show up in this part of the county and7 they can generate a ballot way down that part8 of the county for you to vote on. They can9 check to make sure that you're, you know,

10 properly registered in that particular11 precinct.12 So I guess, you know, I'm always thinking13 that as society modernizes I think these things14 should be open for discussion. I mean, is15 there -- is there some way to make the voter16 experience just as friendly, but is there a way17 to do this on a more efficient mechanism, which18 is not take away, you know, we've gotten away19 from the -- the neighborhood -- we've gotten20 away from neighborhood schools, you know,21 everybody had a school on their block. A lot22 of people like to have their polling place, you23 know, two blocks away, but nobody walks there24 any more.25 So, you know, is there a way -- we're

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1 kind of doing that internally on the county2 level throughout the state in terms of3 consolidating voting locations and4 consolidating precincts.5 So I think, you know, any time you're6 continually open to looking at, you know, what7 makes sense, you know, in this day and age, to8 make sure that we're -- I mean, one of the9 things going from the General Assembly right

10 now I think is a proposal to reduce the number11 of poll workers because right now the law12 requires even if it's a special election,13 forecast very light turnout, four poll workers14 at each precinct. Two Democrats and two15 Republicans.16 And this is basically saying, you know,17 to relax that, maybe you can get by with one18 and one. And it's just because that's --19 that's an expenditure of election, spending20 that doesn't really do anything more to improve21 access for the voter or improve their22 experience. I guess it's just, you know, more23 people to say hello to when you sign in or24 something like that.25 Q Mr. Troy, you obviously have some interesting

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1 experience having served both in the General2 Assembly and now for quite awhile at the county3 level?4 A Right.5 Q Do you think your experience now as a county6 commissioner, do you have a better sense of the7 various obligations and funding expenditure8 requirements at the county level than you did9 when you were in the General Assembly?

10 A Yeah. I think you learn more every, you know,11 when I was teaching at Lakeland Community12 College I learned -- every class I would learn13 things. Yeah, you learn. People ask me, you14 know, what did you like better, being a state15 legislator or county commissioner. I said,16 being a legislator. You got up every morning17 and said, there ought to be a law. As county18 commissioner, you have to actually make things19 work.20 So no, I think you get a better21 understanding of it, you know, but I mean, you22 know, should we have a statutory requirement23 that before becoming a state legislator, you24 know, you should be a county -- I was a25 councilman before I was down there, council

Page 69

1 president.2 So again, yeah, it's, you know, you get a3 better understanding and that's why you try --4 and when I testify down there I think, in front5 of standing committees, I'm able to say, you6 know, I've had your job, I understand, I7 understand the demands of that job, and I just8 want to point out how I've discovered that when9 I was down here, yeah, county government was

10 just another local government, you know, it's11 just like my cities, my villages and my12 townships.13 And I said, no, it's not because14 everything we do in, you know, when we have a15 case in our court house, it's not Lake County16 versus, it's Ohio, State of Ohio versus. In17 other words, we're carrying the freight for a18 lot of state functions. You don't record19 property statewide. We record it in every20 county, we value it in every county and we21 collect the taxes on it in every county and all22 that.23 Now, and again, it's not an issue, but24 maybe that's one of the things that people need25 to look at is is it essential to do that in 88



Exhibit E




19 (Pages 70 to 73)

Page 70

1 locations anymore, you know, with electronic2 recording. You know, do you need a separate3 recording office in every county in the state.4 I don't know.5 But so it's just trying to, you know,6 understand that, again, I think it all goes7 down to in terms of elections, I really, and I8 think my Board of Elections people will tell9 you that, you know, there's no commissioner

10 that's taken more interest in that. Like I11 said, I'm the one that said we need new voting12 machines, I'm the one that said, let us hit the13 maximum pay possible on poll workers. I said,14 let's increase the training amount they get.15 Let me go down there and testify as to why I16 don't think we should spend 200 to $250,000 in17 additional machines we don't need.18 So, I mean, I take the process of19 elections very seriously and all that, and20 again, if I think that people are being21 discouraged from voting, are being suppressed22 from voting and stuff like that, I mean, I -- I23 certainly do not -- do not, you know, agree24 with that.25 But on the same hand, from a bunch of

Page 71

1 attorneys' perspective, I said, well, if you're2 going to ask me to spend this much more money3 to do this, to be open this many more hours, to4 be open this many more days and just so that,5 you know, in case somebody occasionally strays6 in and decides that's the time they want to7 vote, we have to be available for them, I just,8 you know, sometimes say we need to balance9 these things off.

10 We need to balance off the overall, you11 know, public good and the cost of elections.12 Just make sure that when we spend dollars, it13 makes sense what we're spending them for.14 Q To what --15 MS. PIERCE: We have been16 going for over an hour. Do you need to take a17 break for a couple minutes or are you okay to18 continue?19 THE WITNESS: I'll have more20 coffee.21 MR. PAL: Sure.22 MS. PIERCE: Can we take a23 few minutes?24 MR. PAL: Yeah. Off the25 record.

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1 (Recess taken.)2 - - - - -3 (Plaintiff's Exhibit No. DT2 was marked.)4 - - - - -5 BY MR. PAL:6 Q Mr. Troy, I'm going to hand you a document7 that's been marked as Exhibit DT2. Do you8 recognize this document?9 A Yes. Declaration that I made recently, I

10 believe in September -- there it is,11 September 16th. Okay.12 Q Who asked you to prepare this declaration?13 A I believe the Ohio Attorney General's office14 contacted me and I think primarily because I15 did one earlier on another case and probably at16 the suggestion of folks that I've worked with17 in the Ohio Secretary of State's office.18 Q Okay. Did you draft the declaration yourself?19 A Did I draft -- yeah. Basically most of this is20 from an earlier declaration on another case,21 and then I added some additional information22 because the fact that this particular case23 involved the purchase of additional voting24 machines. So, you know, I reviewed it and I25 did -- did I author every word? No. Because a

Page 73

1 lot of it is just from recorded testimony.2 Q Your own testimony?3 A Yeah, basically. Yeah.4 Q Do you recall what the other matter was that5 you originally --6 A I think it was the case involving the NAACP7 case back in -- yeah, and I believe which was8 subsequently settled by the Secretary of9 State's office.

10 Q So just to be clear, so you provided a11 declaration in the NAACP case and then updated12 it for this matter?13 A Yes. Yes.14 Q And did anybody else edit or comment on your15 declaration?16 A No.17 Q Did you read the Complaint in this matter18 before you signed the declaration?19 A I didn't read it in entirety. I do know, you20 know, what the issues were, involve Golden21 Week, involve the law change, changing the 200622 law, the 35 days. Yeah. Yeah. And I believe,23 yeah, those I think were the main components of24 the particular suit. Yeah.25 Q Okay. I'd like to talk a little bit about the



Exhibit E




20 (Pages 74 to 77)

Page 74

1 declaration. If I could point your attention2 to paragraph 8 on the second page.3 A Okay.4 Q In the last sentence there you say, "It's5 frustrating to hear that turnout is dropping in6 spite of the fact that we're spending a lot7 more money to theoretically achieve the8 opposite." And right before we went to break9 you also said something similar in terms of

10 seeing a decline --11 A Right.12 Q -- and wondering whether your expenditures were13 justified. Is that a fair representation of14 what you said?15 A Yeah. To a degree. What I was basically16 saying is that, you know, I mean, it's17 frustrating that, you know, we don't get the18 turnout that, you know, we should be getting19 for elections, you know, in this country and in20 this state, in this county, and especially when21 we are spending a significantly increased22 amount of money to make that experience more23 accessible. Used to be you had one day to vote24 and if you don't want to vote on that day you25 could request an absentee ballot, but you had

Page 75

1 to have a particular reason to do that.2 We also I know in my time in the General3 Assembly created the concept of provisional4 voting, which I know some people have said, you5 know, is suppressing voters.6 And I actually say, no, it's the opposite7 because the purpose of that particular8 provisional voting was that if for some reason9 someone didn't change their address before

10 election day and they used to live in Rocky11 River but now they live in Mentor, it was a12 process by which you could go ahead and vote13 here on a provisional basis, even though you14 have not updated your registration, you're in15 Lake County, we just need to make sure that you16 do live here in Lake County and that you were17 registered to vote over in Rocky River and18 we're going to count your vote so it actually,19 you know, allowed I think more access, more20 enfranchisement of votes than previous, you21 know, would have existed.22 In the old days they just said, you can't23 vote here, but you can go back to Rocky River,24 even though you don't live there, you can go25 back in and vote for your mayor and council

Page 76

1 people in Rocky River and, again, it allowed a2 process by which for whatever reason there was3 some questions about a voter's eligibility.4 So that has been added to what is5 allowable in elections in Ohio. Obviously the6 no fault absentee balloting, the extended hours7 in early voting centers, which primarily are8 Boards of Elections, and evening and some9 weekend hours and all that, and -- and as I say

10 here, it's frustrating to hear that turnout is11 dropping, that, you know, I was -- I ran for12 re-election in November of 2014. There were --13 there were 10,000 less votes, you know, than14 there was in 2010. And the turnout I think in15 my particular race was like 75,000 -- 75 to16 80,000 in 2014 and -- or in 2010 and it dropped17 about 10,000 votes in 2014. It wasn't falloff18 from the ballot. It was just 10 percent less19 voters showing up.20 So again, it's frustrating that, you21 know, we're trying to spend money saying we22 want to make it easier for more people to get23 out there and vote, and what's occurring is the24 exact opposite. We're getting less people25 voting.

Page 77

1 So, again, and the only voter suppression2 I have encountered is self -- is self chosen,3 that, you know, individuals suppressing their4 votes because they don't bother to vote. I5 don't think there's anything that's keeping6 them away by what we do.7 I think what we -- I also sit on the8 National Association of Counties Board of9 Directors as one of Ohio's two representatives.

10 So I can compare with other states. And I know11 we just had our annual meeting in North12 Carolina and there was a big issue down there13 because they were taking their 17-day early14 voting period and rolling that back to 12. And15 they said -- they said, you know, they had16 people who are advocating for it saying we want17 our 17 days again here in North Carolina. I18 said, gee, if they proposed 17 days in Ohio19 they would go nuts because they have 28 now.20 So we're not, you know, we're -- we've21 done a lot to make it a lot easier to vote and,22 again, it has had a price tag to it.23 Q To your knowledge has voter turnout gone up in24 any other counties in Ohio?25 A I'm, you know, again, there's -- there's a



Exhibit E




21 (Pages 78 to 81)

Page 78

1 significant number of factors can drive voter2 turnout. Obviously interest in a particular3 race, you know, a particular issue. You know,4 if there's a feeling by the voters that there's5 not a, you know, that very well may have been6 why my vote total was down in 2014 next to7 2010, perception by people that the highest8 race, the race for governor, was a foregone9 conclusion, it was not a very competitive race.

10 So I think those are factors. You know,11 the interest in the candidates, the interest in12 the issues can have an impact on turnout.13 Q My question was whether -- you referred to the14 drop-off in turnout in Lake. My question was15 do you know if turnout stayed steady or went up16 in any other counties in Ohio?17 A I'm not aware of any turnout going up in any18 other counties in Ohio. Now, again, given any19 particular election in a municipality, in a20 county, you know, there -- voter interest for21 whatever reason, hotly contested race, very --22 very controversial issue in front of voters,23 you know, that can have an impact on the local24 turnout.25 Q What about turnout among subgroups of the

Page 79

1 voters? Do you know whether voter turnout may2 have gone up with any particular demographic3 group, for example, the African/American group?4 A It's hard to tell my county because it's, you5 know, it's traditionally been a less desirable6 turnout. It should be higher. I know when I7 ran for state senate in 1996 Ashtabula County8 was part of that senate district and I know,9 you know, did extremely well in the -- the

10 African/American areas of the City of11 Ashtabula. However, I did extremely well on a12 39 or 40 percent turnout.13 So, you know, the turnout -- the turnout14 has always been, you know, less than desired in15 some of those particular areas. But I really16 can't tell in Lake County because it's a17 relatively small minority population. I don't18 -- don't see any difference in turnout in the19 City of Painesville, which probably has the20 largest African/American component of the21 county there, so.22 Q And have you heard anything about other23 counties in Ohio, whether they had seen this24 type of increase in turnout among, for example,25 the African/American demographic?

Page 80

1 A Well, I've heard, you know, concerns about2 turnout and everything, but again, I think it's3 -- a lot of it is not so much the process or4 the availability as to what the draw is for5 them to show up. I mean, I think that's -- you6 know, just to surmise, I assume it's a concern7 right now in the National Democratic Party8 that, you know, will the turnout in the 20169 election from the minority community be as good

10 as it was in '08 and '12, and obviously the11 fact is there was an African/American candidate12 on the ballot.13 And again, I think that -- that has a14 tendency to drive turnout, you know, one way or15 the other as to what the draw is for the voter16 to show up, and again, not the -- not the17 mechanisms that are available for them to18 particularly participate.19 Q Okay. If I could draw your attention to20 paragraph 19 of your declaration.21 A Uh-huh.22 Q Actually, 18 and 19.23 A Okay.24 Q Take a look at those. In both those paragraphs25 when you're talking about the benefit, and the

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1 first sentence of 18, second sentence of 19?2 A Uh-huh.3 Q If you had the type of increased voter turnout4 among a particular demographic group that we5 were referring to in our prior conversation, in6 your opinion would that be a worthwhile7 investment?8 A It would depend on the factors. If in fact,9 you know, I could break that down and analyze

10 it and say that, you know, the but for11 doctrine. But for the fact that we had not12 spent this additional money and these13 additional resources and employed additional14 personnel and added additional hours to get15 that particular turnout, in other words, is16 that -- is that -- in other words, you know, is17 that what made it happen.18 It's the same thing I did in the Ways and19 Means Committee, you know, when I was20 frustrated with tax abatements, you know. I21 mean, does this tax abatement meet the but for22 doctrine? That if they don't get this tax23 break, they're not going to build this new24 facility, or are they going to do it anyway,25 and you know, let's hand out.



Exhibit E




22 (Pages 82 to 85)

Page 82

1 So I just don't like to spend money2 unless I can show that it actually drove the3 intended benefit.4 Q Do you know whether some of these mechanisms5 that we have been talking about, Golden Week,6 early voting, whether some of these mechanisms7 are more predominantly used by particular8 demographic groups than others?9 A The only thing I've noticed in my Board of

10 Elections over the last couple of weeks, since11 early voting started, is that, you know, a lot12 of seniors coming in there to vote. Now, they13 are always, say, good demographic for showing14 up to vote on election day, but I think the15 fact that a lot of them are retired, have the16 same, the ability to come in and get this over17 with on an early basis, I've seen them, you18 know, taking more advantage of the early voting19 process.20 But again, this is a demographic that21 obviously we're -- we always used to say the22 trouble with senior citizens is they're chronic23 voters.24 Q So for counties that have other demographic25 breakdown different from Lake County, for

Page 83

1 example, counties that have a more significant2 minority demographic breakdown, if, for3 example, the African/American population takes4 greater advantage to come out and vote during5 Golden Week, would you see a correlation there6 between that mechanism and the African/American7 turnout?8 A If in fact the, you know, the data showed that,9 and again, you know, it shows that, you know,

10 again the but for thing because a lot of folks,11 obviously when I say the senior citizens are12 coming in voting in my Board of Elections,13 they're not voting then because they wouldn't14 vote otherwise, they're doing it because it's15 there. I mean, if you can -- you know, it's --16 yeah.17 So again, you know, there are some people18 that feel, you know, one of the problems with19 Golden Week or having early voting too far out20 from the election day is that, you know, is21 there -- has there been ample time for that22 particular voter to get a good understanding of23 the candidates or the issues. So -- in terms24 of, you know, how choices are presented to them25 to decide on.

Page 84

1 So yeah, the -- again, it's difficult2 sometimes to say that, you know, in other3 words, if this Golden Week opportunity was not4 available to you to register and vote between5 35 and 28 days before an election, can it be6 assumed that you would not participate in this7 process at all.8 And again, that was one of the arguments9 I heard when I was in the legislature when

10 somebody said, you know, we need to roll the11 hours back from 7:30 to 6:30, and the chairman,12 and I was surprised he said that because he13 actually said, you know, he said, I tend to14 like the idea of this because the only people I15 know that vote between 6:30 and 7:30 are people16 like my wife, and the reason she votes then is17 because she can.18 You know, so it's -- you know, again,19 it's hard to tell, you know, who's utilizing20 what, you know, and would not, you know. So I21 suppose, you know, to answer to your question,22 if someone can prove to me that without this23 particular mechanism, this individual from 2824 days out with weekend voting opportunities,25 with evening voting opportunities, with vote by

Page 85

1 mail opportunities would have been unable to2 participate in our political process unless3 this was particularly available, then I'd say,4 well, then it makes sense. But I don't know if5 anybody can prove that.6 Q Are you familiar with the term soles to the7 polls?8 A No, not directly. I mean, okay.9 Q Have you heard the term?

10 A Vaguely, but I don't -- have I ever -- what11 does it mean? I don't know.12 Q Soles to polls is a type of get out the vote13 effort organized by churches oftentimes in the14 African/American community that takes voters15 after church services on Sundays to polls.16 A Okay.17 Q And is a mechanism that is used fairly commonly18 in the African/American communities.19 A Right.20 Q Do you know if you have soles to polls efforts21 in Lake County?22 A I'm not aware of any in Lake County. I mean,23 there's a couple of, you know, African/American24 population churches in Painesville, but I'm not25 aware of any, you know, soles to the polls



Exhibit E




23 (Pages 86 to 89)

Page 86

1 activity. You know, I do see, you know, some2 participation because Painesville, the Board of3 Elections is in downtown Painesville and the4 African/American community probably lives5 within a mile proximity to there.6 You do see a lot of activity from the7 African/American community just accessing the8 voting process through that particular9 opportunity.

10 Q Mr. Troy, we spent a lot of time talking about11 the costs and the administrative burdens that12 you as a commissioner have to deal with with13 respect to your responsibilities to your county14 and similarly the responsibility of other local15 county boards and how that differs from your16 experience in the General Assembly. Do you17 think that the needs and the challenges faced18 by any individual county board may vary19 somewhat depending on the particular situation20 of that county by which, I mean, their21 geographic location, their population? You22 referred earlier to the resources that they23 have. Would that affect the challenges unique24 to that county?25 A I would say that it's very possible that's the

Page 87

1 case. You know, and that's sometimes one of2 the criticisms I've had of Ohio law sometimes3 is that it basically is one size fits all. If4 I go to Franklin County, there are 11 elected5 executive branch officials, three6 commissioners, auditor, treasurer, recorder,7 et cetera.8 If I go to Vinton County, population9 15,000, there are 11 elected executive branch

10 officials. In other words, it's, you know, you11 sit there and say, there's gotta be a way you12 can allow Vinton County to consolidate, you13 know, the recorder, the treasurer and the14 auditor's office in one operation, but, you15 know, it's statutory requirements and all that.16 So yeah, I, you know, I can understand17 where, you know, there's differences between,18 you know, counties in terms of that.19 Q You used the phrase --20 MS. PIERCE: Were you done?21 THE WITNESS: Yeah.22 Q You used the phrase one size fits all and I23 want to hone in on the size question.24 A Yeah.25 Q One thing we haven't talked about is the impact

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1 of geography. When you've got a large county2 that's spread out, are there unique challenges3 in administering elections in a county like4 that? As compared to a more compact county?5 MS. PIERCE: Objection.6 Calls for speculation.7 A Over the years I've watched Cuyahoga County8 have significant challenges in its elections.9 I mean, they've gotten a lot better, but for

10 quite awhile they were not the poster child on11 how to operate an election.12 Q Can you elaborate on that?13 A Well, I think they just -- they just had, you14 know, they didn't have problems, you know,15 finalizing reporting requirements and all that.16 Every once in a while you'd read about, you17 know, ballots found in the trunk of a car, you18 know, a week or two after the election. I19 mean, just, again, you know, whether that had20 anything to do with the size of the county or21 the personnel, I think that -- I think that the22 law -- you know, I can see adaptations in the23 law to maybe address some of that. You know, I24 think the law right now says each county can25 only have one early voting center, you know,

Page 89

1 and I don't say that that makes a lot of sense2 maybe for a large county, you know, maybe they3 need four regional early voting centers, or4 something like that, but the system itself kind5 of brings the process to every neighborhood6 because it's on a ward by precinct basis and7 all that. So, you know, the size of the county8 is addressed there.9 But again, when I look at this cost

10 versus benefit ratio, we say, okay, if we're11 going to have this new concept of making early12 voting more accessible, maybe having a couple13 of more locations for early voting and all14 that, that's going to cost me more money and15 all that, but on the same hand then show me16 where I reduce what I'm spending on election17 day because I'm taking 40 percent of the voting18 populous out of that election day process. But19 the law says, no, you'll still have a table in20 every precinct, you'll have four people sitting21 there, so many machines and all that.22 So it's like -- and that's kind of the23 frustration I get is I'm spending more money24 for what allegedly isn't proving anything, but25 I'm not getting any reduction in spending from



Exhibit E




24 (Pages 90 to 93)

Page 90

1 the old existing mechanism and all that so, you2 know. And so I think there's room for3 continued discussion on how to accommodate all4 that.5 Q What about the idea you just raised of perhaps6 a larger county having you said four regional7 -- what if that was optional for the counties?8 Where smaller counties, more compact counties9 didn't need to do that, but larger counties had

10 the option to do that, would that be a fair11 approach?12 MS. PIERCE: Objection.13 Vague.14 A Huh?15 MS. PIERCE: You can16 answer.17 A Well, it would be my opinion -- I know the18 Secretary of State's opinion, you know, is he19 wants uniformity, okay, and you know, and I --20 I can understand his argument on uniformity21 from one perspective is that I suppose if you22 look at the democratic -- demographic makeup of23 certain counties and, you know, the feeling is24 that, well, if, you know, they have three times25 the amount of opportunity to vote again, we can

Page 91

1 all only vote once, you know, that will get 202 people voting of this particular persuasion,3 and I don't know. I don't know if I buy that4 uniformity.5 So no, I'm not wedded to the -- and in6 fact, I don't think I've commented on the7 Secretary's real pension for uniformity is8 that, you know, we will do in Cuyahoga County9 what we don't do in Vinton County, or we will

10 do the same in both counties. I think -- I11 think, you know, you accommodate it there. And12 again, if it makes sense.13 And I think the key people are the local14 officials, you know, basically saying that from15 a, let's say, Board of Elections perspective is16 we can be more efficient, we can make sure that17 more people can participate in the process, but18 we need -- because that has always been one of19 the big things with the CCAO is we ask the20 legislature for -- we don't ask for21 non-uniformity, but we ask for more22 flexibility. Let us make -- let me -- let us23 make -- give us a little more flexible24 opportunity to decide what works best for our25 particular area.

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1 Q And just to clarify, when you say, "We," you2 mean the counties?3 A Counties. Yeah.4 Q So you think that counties having the5 discretion or the flexibility based on their6 unique needs is a better approach than7 uniformity?8 A Well, you know, again, it depends, you know,9 there has to be parameters on that too. If

10 this county says, I want to have early voting11 for 75 days, and another county says, well, I12 want to have it for three days, I mean, you13 can't sit there and say, okay, you guys can do14 what you want. You know, there has to be15 something, you know, something that, you know,16 there has to be some level of standards,17 uniform standards but, you know, totally on18 that, again, this is my opinion on that, so.19 Q But within -- within certain reasonable20 parameters?21 A Yeah. And again, we were talking about voting22 locations and things like that. You know,23 again, I'm not saying I would agree the same24 needs to be in terms of -- just as I said on25 early voting, I don't think that you should

Page 93

1 say, well, this county should be allowed to2 have early voting a lot earlier than this3 county has it. But in terms of facilities,4 opportunities to get there, you know, again, I5 think it's -- if the county itself comes6 forward and says, I need four, you know, early7 voting locations and here's why, now, on the8 other hand, I don't want somebody from Columbus9 to say, Lake County, you're going to have to

10 have four early voting locations out there11 because that's the law. And I'm going to say12 why? You know, geographically we're 88th in13 size of 88 counties in the State of Ohio, why14 do I need four early voting centers because15 there's been no -- yeah.16 Q Is that right, Lake County is the smallest?17 A Yeah. We're the smallest geographically.18 Q Geographically?19 A We're 88th in size and 11th in population.20 Q Interesting. Okay. Point you to paragraph 1021 of your declaration, page 3. About three22 quarters of the way through there you talk23 about the challenge of straightening out the24 voter books before election day?25 A Yeah.



Exhibit E




25 (Pages 94 to 97)

Page 94

1 Q Do you see that?2 A Uh-huh.3 Q I was a little curious about that because in4 the context of Golden Week, we're talking about5 five days at the beginning of the period, so at6 the end of Golden Week you wouldn't need to7 straighten out -- you still have the early8 voting period prior to election day?9 A Well, I think there was more along the lines of

10 the, you know, "Expense for straightening out11 the voter books into the wee hours of election12 eve" -- the fact that I think -- and I think it13 was a settlement in the last case that for14 awhile there early voting -- well, absentee15 voting before you had no fault absentee voting16 I think always used to close off on Saturday at17 noon. And then I think under the no fault18 absentee ballot there it was rolled back. It19 used to be on Sunday and Monday. It was rolled20 back to Saturday noon or sometime on Saturday21 and all that.22 And in discussing that with election23 officials in my county, and from both sides of24 the aisle, you know, they felt that was25 important because they do have to record, you

Page 95

1 know, who's requesting absentee ballots.2 There's gotta be a point where they draw3 a line in the sand and say, okay, these people4 have requested an absentee ballot so you cannot5 allow them to vote on election day, and/or they6 voted -- to get the books in shape so that --7 and the fact is that you now have early voting8 going into the day before election means9 there's a lot of personnel and scurrying and

10 additional expenditures because, you know,11 these polls open at 6:30 a.m. the next morning,12 they have to get this material out to the13 precinct judges.14 So that's what I meant there is that, you15 know, yeah, it's -- you'd like to give people16 up until the last minute the opportunity to17 vote early, but there's gotta be a point where18 -- to protect the process and make sure that19 it's a legitimate process that, you know, the20 record keeping is current and all that.21 Q Sure.22 A That's what that was about.23 Q So it's not about Golden Week?24 A No, it's not about Golden Week. No. That's an25 example of all the additional expenditures that

Page 96

1 I have seen being added to an election, to2 election costs as a commissioner because of3 these changes.4 Q With early voting in general?5 A Yeah. Meaning the change to allow -- yes,6 Sunday voting and Monday voting the day before7 an election, you know, is a greater expense8 because you have to have personnel there to9 handle the early voting, but again, the

10 additional expense of people having to get11 precinct records for 162 precincts in order to12 be shipped out so, you know, the process can be13 done accordingly on election day and, you know.14 And then, you know, the poll workers running15 the problems out there on election day. You16 know, people show up and they won't let them17 vote, and they say, because you requested an18 absentee ballot. And they say, well, but I19 didn't send it in. They said, we can't -- I20 mean, yeah.21 Q Earlier you mentioned an E poll book system and22 state funding?23 A Right.24 Q Has Lake County purchased one?25 A No. Not yet. I've discussed this with my

Page 97

1 Board of Elections director saying that, you2 know, they're actually -- they are actually3 vetting the various manufacturers, the Board of4 Elections determining which one, I think5 there's a list of eligible E poll book6 manufacturers that have been designated by DAS,7 and then what will happen is DAS, Department of8 Administrative Services, will handle the actual9 transaction so it does not require on each

10 county level an open bid process and all that.11 But as I've indicated, or my12 understanding is we're going to have to13 appropriate 100 percent of the money and then14 request reimbursement for 85 percent of it from15 the state because the state doesn't want to16 have ownership of the machines.17 Q So is it currently in your next year's budget?18 A Yeah. It will be. In other words, we're -- in19 other words, we have not passed next year's20 budget. Initially she had indicated to me she21 would like to have these in place for tryout22 for the 2015 general election, which of course23 is in less than two weeks, but nothing --24 nothing processed that quickly through the25 state. So no, it will be -- it will be in next



Exhibit E




26 (Pages 98 to 101)

Page 98

1 year's budget.2 I've already told my budget director at a3 public meeting we would have to create a4 special fund, you know, and appropriate money5 in it from the general fund to purchase this,6 and then we will be reimbursed from the state.7 I've also checked because she said we8 don't know if we want to buy -- because there's9 a certain allotment each county is entitled to

10 based on the number of registered voters, and11 so what they are going to -- she's indicated,12 and I've got this cleared, is that she doesn't13 want to buy the whole allotment up front, you14 know, can we look at spending the rest later,15 and the indication I get from the state is you16 can do that, you can get your, you know, you17 can get your 85 percent of what you spend now18 and you just can't exceed your allotment --19 Q Just --20 A -- for Lake County.21 Q Just to be clear, when you say, "Next year,"22 will you have it in place for the 201623 election?24 A They will be in place. And then obviously part25 of that there will be an additional cost curve

Page 99

1 to the county because there will be additional2 training that will have to take place, you3 know, with the poll workers to educate them on4 the, you know, on the proper use of these5 particular E poll books.6 Q Does Lake County currently have consolidated7 poll books?8 A Huh?9 Q Do you know if Lake County currently has

10 consolidated poll books?11 A Really don't know. All I know is when I sign12 in to vote on election day there's a book for13 my particular precinct.14 Q Yeah.15 A Yeah. And I do know now that, you know, they16 -- they print off -- these are things that are17 printed off electronic signatures and they18 match, you know, match your signature against19 that. So, again, that's --20 Q Okay.21 A -- that's either below or above my pay grade.22 Q The last paragraph of -- I'm sorry, not --23 yeah, paragraph 25, the last paragraph.24 A Which paragraph?25 Q 25.

Page 100

1 A 25.2 Q Page 6.3 A Okay. Yeah.4 Q You say you've had no complaints about early5 voting or long lines in your county?6 A Yeah.7 Q Have you heard of any complaints about any of8 those topics in any other county?9 A Not from county officials. I mean, various --

10 various interests, you know, a lot of sound11 bites floating around out there, various12 interest groups, et cetera, but no, I haven't,13 you know, I really -- and again, from my14 perspective, you know, I'm going to hear the15 complaints of my county. I've not heard16 anybody say, boy, I wish there was more early17 voting hours, or I haven't heard any complaints18 about long lines.19 I mean, the fact that turnout is down,20 you know, considerably as it used to be, you21 know, 10 percent of the -- 10 percent less22 voters vote and all that, I mean, the easiest23 time to vote now seems to be election day24 because it's just -- there's no line. You25 know, the only complaints I get are the usual,

Page 101

1 you know, I get complaints from people saying,2 you know, they don't like their choices. And I3 said, well, that's who was nominated in the4 primary elections, and they don't understand5 why they can't vote both primary elections to6 pick who they get to vote on in November. I7 said, you can't do that. That's a nominating8 process. You participate in the election9 process and, you know. And they say, oh,

10 that's communistic or something like that.11 Q You're a member of the Democratic party; is12 that correct?13 A Yes. Yes. I mean, I run as a Democrat.14 That's right. But, you know, I -- yeah.15 Q And how would you self-identify your race?16 A Caucasian. White.17 Q And can you describe the racial composition of18 the other Lake County Commissioners?19 A Both Caucasian. Yeah. There's two males,20 myself and Commissioner Malecek and one female,21 Commissioner Moran. Yeah.22 Q To your knowledge in Lake County are there any23 African/Americans elected to public office?24 A Yeah. There is a -- let's see. There's a25 council member in Madison Village, there is a



Exhibit E




27 (Pages 102 to 105)

Page 102

1 -- well, there was a councilman in Painesville,2 but he did not run for re-election. And, yeah,3 I don't think there's an African/American4 elected official in Painesville. There have5 been on occasion, two or three, but other than6 that there are I think two African/American7 members of the Painesville City Board of8 Education elected. I just, you know, can't --9 yeah.

10 Q How about Latinos?11 A No. Not that I'm aware of.12 MR. PAL: Okay.13 Mr. Troy, that's all I have for you.14 MS. PIERCE: I do have some15 questions for you, but --16 THE WITNESS: Go ahead.17 MS. PIERCE: Do you need to18 take a break before we begin?19 THE WITNESS: No. I'm fine.20 MS. PIERCE: You're fine?21 Okay.22 THE WITNESS: Yeah.23 MS. PIERCE: All right.24 THE WITNESS: I told them25 don't look for me coming back to the office

Page 103

1 today. I live between here and there. So why2 would I go there.3 EXAMINATION4 BY MS. PIERCE:5 Q Mr. Troy, you spoke a little bit earlier about6 how you could see how Cuyahoga County might7 have more than one early voting center. Do you8 remember that conversation?9 A Well, I said that, you know, again,

10 flexibility, allowing local folks to basically11 say this would be -- and I always assume that12 when local folks, you know, want to exercise13 that flexibility, there's someone also saying,14 you know, this makes fiscal sense, this -- this15 is just not, you know, a way to spend more16 money without any particular improvement.17 I would think that, you know, if there's18 a feeling that, you know, it's really tough to19 have one early voting center in a county of 1.320 or 1.4 million people and, you know, 8, 900,00021 registered voters, so if in fact we are going22 to have these early voting centers, you know,23 it might make more sense for us, again, I think24 it's efficient to have three or four. That25 wouldn't change any of the hours or anything

Page 104

1 like that, or change the 28 days, it would just2 say that, you know, those weekends or evenings3 or daytime periods where you have, you know,4 early voting maybe -- and I don't know, I5 assume Cuyahoga County -- I know our early6 voting centers are Board of Elections. I7 assume Cuyahoga County is at their Board of8 Elections. I don't know.9 I do know that you are allowed to

10 designate another area, but then if you11 designate another area you cannot also have it12 at your Board of Elections. So yeah.13 Q So you mentioned that counties can designate14 another location to have early voting. Is that15 the only difference between early voting16 centers between counties that are -- that's17 allowed to occur?18 A My understanding is you are only allowed to19 have one early voting center per county. Is20 that -- I can't --21 Q But could a county have a larger voting center,22 larger than Lake County's for example?23 A Oh, yeah. If Cuyahoga County designated the24 Cleveland Browns Stadium as an early voting25 center and the law says you can designate one

Page 105

1 and that would be it, I mean, it would be large2 but, you know, it might not, you know, I think3 the idea is for more convenience.4 In other words, you know, okay, if you5 want to early vote in Lake County right now you6 have to come to -- if you want early vote7 in-person, all it is is basically you stand at8 the counter, you fill out an absentee voter9 request, you give it to one of the clerks. He

10 or she will dig out the ballot for your11 particular locality, precinct, and all that,12 and then give that to you in the envelope and13 you're done. Fill it out, put it in here, sign14 your name and then put it in the envelope, sign15 it and take it and all that.16 And so I assume that, you know, if a17 larger county wanted to have that taking place18 in more than one location, at their call, their19 call, in other words, not the state saying20 every county must have multiple early voting21 locations and all that, I think maybe allow22 that up to the -- again, the county -- and the23 county understanding that, okay, if I choose to24 do that, I'm expending additional dollars to do25 that, I'm -- this is a willful decision on my



Exhibit E




28 (Pages 106 to 109)

Page 106

1 part to open up four different centers and2 staff those and things like that, I -- again,3 opinion wise, I don't have any problem with4 that. I don't see my county doing that.5 Q So there is flexibility for counties in6 designing their early voting centers though?7 A I don't think there is flexibility now, is8 there?9 Q In designing their single --

10 A Oh, designing, yeah. There isn't flexibility11 in having more than one though. Right. Okay.12 Q You mentioned also I believe that there still13 needs to be some parameters in which counties14 should work. For example, when it comes to15 early voting, one county can't have 75 days and16 one county can't have three. What sort of17 parameters would you envision for opening up18 early voting centers to multiple locations?19 A Well, I would think that, you know, whatever20 formula, you know, the General Assembly or the21 Secretary of State through a directive wants to22 come up with in terms of, you know, what23 qualifies you as a county to have additional24 early voting centers and all that. I really --25 I really would disagree with allowing county

Page 107

1 flexibilities to have different early voting2 periods.3 I do think you gotta -- in other words,4 here's when you have to register by law in5 Ohio, 30 days before, whatever the numbers are,6 here's when early voting can start. I don't7 think you can allow flexibility on that8 particular provision in the counties.9 But in terms of logistics, locations and

10 all that, you know, and then I think you do get11 into a problem if you, you know, allow12 flexibility and the hours in which these places13 could be open, you know, because some county14 may say, I'm shutting down at noon on Saturday15 because I gotta get my books ready and, you16 know, another county says, no, I'm going to17 stay open until midnight the night before the18 election and all that.19 So, yeah, some uniformity in there I20 think, but again, you know, yeah, what the21 criteria would be, you know, that's up to the22 General Assembly and/or the Secretary of State23 for allowing for more flexibility in locations24 to vote. Yeah.25 Q But you would agree that if counties were given

Page 108

1 the discretion to have more than one early2 voting location, there would need to be some3 kind of parameters set on that?4 A Well, I think along the lines that, you know,5 you can't -- you can't have any hours different6 than what we, you know, these are the7 permissible early voting hours that you have,8 because I do know they have several weekend9 nights, several weekends, they do have weekday

10 nights and all that. I think they would have11 to go along with that parameter.12 But just the fact that you all don't have13 to show up at one location no matter how small14 or how large it is, instead if you want to have15 one in western Cuyahoga County, eastern16 Cuyahoga County near downtown and southern17 Cuyahoga County, you know, I can't -- from my18 personal opinion I don't see where that's a19 problem. But again, you know, it should be up20 to the local officials. Don't force it on them21 and say, you will have four early voting22 locations, because there's a cost involved, you23 know.24 And I know, you know, and I can remember25 when Commissioner Hagan, when they still had

Page 109

1 commissioner form of government here in2 Cuyahoga County, and this was back in the early3 2000's and he said -- he grabbed me because he4 knew I was on the CCAO Board, "We gotta push5 for all mail voting" -- M A I L -- "in Ohio,"6 which, you know, I think Oregon was doing for7 awhile or something like that.8 And I said, "My God, Tim," I said, "the9 expense of that," you know.

10 And he said -- he said -- and he11 basically said, "I think we should because, you12 know, we can't run an election on election day13 in Cuyahoga County." I mean, he was admitting14 that they have problems here in Cuyahoga County15 running elections and all that.16 So, I mean, that was -- that was the case17 of where, you know, he's saying, I don't care18 how much it costs, you know, I'll spend that19 much to avoid the problems and all that.20 So, again, I think with the early voting21 centers if, you know, they say, I don't care22 how much it costs, I think it reduces some23 problems for us and it's probably, you know, a24 little more user friendly.25 Q You mentioned earlier, and I'm taking you way



Exhibit E




29 (Pages 110 to 113)

Page 110

1 back to the beginning, that some of the poll2 workers in your county had questions about how3 much they were getting paid for their training4 sessions versus how much the poll workers right5 next door in Cuyahoga County were getting paid.6 A Yeah.7 Q Could you envision a similar situation amongst8 your voters if Cuyahoga County had 75 early9 voting locations and Lake County just had the

10 one?11 A Well, you know, everybody likes convenience. I12 mean, you know, you know people that, you know,13 people still like to have their neighborhood14 schools where the kids could walk one block.15 But I mean, it's not -- first of all, I don't16 see where Cuyahoga County would have 75 early17 voting centers because these are all at county18 expense and I would find them hard pressed to19 be able to justify that particular expenditure.20 No, I -- I just think, you know, the21 difference on what I referred to was the poll22 worker training is that the law is very clear,23 here's the minimum a poll worker can get paid,24 here's the maximum a poll worker can get paid,25 and so you have to be somewhere within that

Page 111

1 range. And then it's adjusted I think for2 inflation every so often and all that.3 So once you hit the maximum, very shortly4 you're not at that maximum because it has gone5 up and -- but the poll worker training is just6 I think they were getting $10.00 for training7 session when I first come and I said to the8 director of Board of Elections, I said, "Geez,9 how long are they here?"

10 He said, "Two hours."11 I said, "Can't we give them 20?"12 He said, "If you guys authorize it."13 So I said, "All right. We'll authorize14 the budget expenditure to do that."15 And so -- but there's -- that's not16 regulated by law. The poll worker pay for a17 day at -- election day is regulated by law, but18 the training expense is not regulated by law19 and so should it be regulated by law? I don't20 know. Again, it becomes -- yeah.21 I don't worry about, you know, I wouldn't22 worry that people in Lake County would say, how23 come Cuyahoga County has four or six or eight24 early voting locations and we only have one and25 I said, because they're seven times as big as

Page 112

1 we are geographically, that's why.2 Q Okay. But differences in the election process3 do bleed over county lines, that is voters in4 one county can be aware of the voting situation5 in the county next door; is that right?6 A I -- in terms of what do you mean? How come --7 how come our voting opportunities here in8 Willowick are different than Euclid right9 across the Cuyahoga County line? I don't know

10 how they're -- I mean, how would they be11 different?12 Q How about if one county had more -- going back13 to the early voting hours, if one county had14 more early voting hours than a county next15 door?16 A That may be one of the parameters that should17 not be varied. I just said on locations. More18 than one location. I did not say that, you19 know, it made sense to maybe say your early20 voting hours you can stay open to midnight in21 this county but you can close at 4:00 p m. in22 this county.23 I think there should be, you know,24 uniformity there. You can say, listen, every25 voter has had the same opportunity in this

Page 113

1 state, the same number of hours, you know, to2 take advantage of voting opportunities, 28 days3 minus a couple non-business days, a few4 evenings, a few weekend days and all that, and5 within certain hours and all that. It's -- and6 again, as I've said earlier, I don't think what7 we have right now is overly restrictive --8 Q Okay.9 A -- in terms of doing that.

10 Now, if you sat there and said, but if11 you want to do that in person, you obviously12 can do it by mail, every two years you're going13 to get something from the Secretary of State14 that you can fill out send in and they're going15 to mail it to you, or you can bring that or go16 in the Board of Elections and vote in process17 there to say that in large counties there's18 three, four, five, six locations that you can19 go in and conduct that process, you know, I20 don't have a problem with that flexibility.21 But to say Lake County you can't -- you22 can't early vote on this particular Sunday but23 over in Cuyahoga County they can vote on this24 particular Sunday, I think that's problematic.25 Q Okay. And why do you feel that the flexibility



Exhibit E




30 (Pages 114 to 117)

Page 114

1 in voting location is different than2 flexibility in voting hours? Early voting3 location. I'm sorry.4 A Well, because you're not really -- you're not5 really, you know, I don't think it really is6 changing the game or the advantages or anything7 like that. I mean, it's just -- it's just more8 convenient. I think the same reason why, you9 know, every community has at least one polling

10 place in the community.11 I mean, I got two real small villages12 right next to each other, Lakeline Village and13 Timberlake Village, but they both have one14 precinct voting in their village halls. And I15 sit there and say, just consolidate them into16 one location and all that. They said, no, the17 law says each community will have its own so,18 you know, anything -- anything on location, you19 know, flexibility or consolidation, anything20 like that, I don't think that, you know, that21 creates an unfair advantage or disadvantage.22 Q You mentioned that you believe that the23 Secretary of State's position on the early24 voting location flexibility question I'll call25 it is different. So is this an issue where

Page 115

1 reasonable minds could differ?2 A Yeah. I'm sure. I mean, you know, I mean,3 uniformity is important. But, you know, to4 what degree and on what aspects of that, you5 know, I mean, you know, does everybody -- does6 everybody wear a tie to high school or does7 everybody wear a blue tie to high school and8 all that. I mean, how specific is your9 uniformity and all that.

10 So yeah. Yeah. Reasonable minds can11 differ I suppose on how do we define, you know,12 uniformity. But again, yeah. I think it's13 just, you know, you know, I'm -- I've been14 doing this a long time. I mean, I've been15 elected in office for 40 years. You know, most16 things get done, unfortunately not these days,17 but they get done by compromise, consensus, a18 little give and take. I'll meet you halfway on19 this, halfway on this, but we're kind of in a20 little bit more of an I'm going to stand my21 ground and not compromise my principles. And22 so, as you can see, we're getting a lot done23 these days.24 Q Mr. Troy, you mentioned the OEAO is a25 bipartisan organization. Is the County

Page 116

1 Commissioners Association bipartisan, as well?2 A Yeah, it's bipartisan. I mean, it's -- 703 percent of the county commissioners in the4 state, at least 70 percent are Republican. And5 you know, even when we put together our board6 of directors, you know, when I first came in7 there was an emphasis that it be as balanced as8 possible. And I even said, hey, you know, you9 can't do that because, you know, we gotta sign

10 up about half the people on my side to get on11 the board in order to have it balanced.12 So, no, it's bipartisan, but I'd say13 right now the board is 35 members and it's14 probably, oh, it's probably, you know, 23 -- 2315 Republicans, 12 Democrats, you know. But16 that's -- that's kind of the makeup of the17 state. You know, your larger counties have a18 tendency to have three democratic commissioners19 and, you know, but population wise, you know,20 the 12 Democrats probably represent more people21 in the State of Ohio than the 23 Republicans on22 the board because of the demographics of each23 of the counties.24 So yeah, it's bipartisan. And really,25 we've been -- on these election issues we've

Page 117

1 pretty much all been, you know, on the same2 page in terms of where we're at.3 And again, I get the impression that the4 Ohio Association of Elections Officials,5 whether Democrat or Republican, seem to be, you6 know, I'm sure it's like anything else, there7 might have been a dissenting vote or two, but8 my understanding that they were strongly in9 favor of the 28-day window rather than the 35

10 day.11 I don't know where they're at on early12 voting centers, how many per county and all13 that, but I know the one thing they were really14 insistent on and they don't have right now is15 can't we -- can't we draw that line in the sand16 on Saturday afternoon so we can get these poll17 books in order to go out there and all that.18 So yeah.19 Q Okay. And is all the information you contained20 in your declaration, is that all true and21 accurate?22 A Yeah. I mean, I read it before I signed it23 and, you know, it's, you know, might be in some24 cases a little fussent, but, yeah, it's all --25 there's nothing in here that I can't -- in



Exhibit E




31 (Pages 118 to 121)

Page 118

1 fact, I did say earlier that when we ended up2 selling the voting machines for about 40 --3 actually, that's -- I do see that's right, we4 did get $28,700 for them. I said less than5 30,000 in scrap value. Yeah. Yeah.6 MS. PIERCE: That is all7 for me. Anything else?8 MR. PAL: Nothing for9 me.

10 MS. PIERCE: You're done.11 MR. PAL: Thank you very12 much. Appreciate your time driving down.13 THE WITNESS: Okay.14 (Deposition concluded at 4:38 p.m.)1516171819202122232425

Page 119

THE STATE OF OHIO, ) SS:COUNTY OF CUYAHOGA. )

I, Lynn A. Regovich, a Notary Public withinand for the State of Ohio, duly commissioned andqualified, do hereby certify that DANIEL TROY, wasfirst duly sworn to testify the truth, the wholetruth and nothing but the truth in the causeaforesaid; that the testimony then given by him wasby me reduced to stenotypy in the presence of saidwitness, afterwards transcribed on acomputer/printer, and that the foregoing is a trueand correct transcript of the testimony so given byhim as aforesaid. I do further certify that this deposition wastaken at the time and place in the foregoingcaption specified. I do further certify that I amnot a relative, counsel or attorney of eitherparty, or otherwise interested in the event of thisaction. IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set myhand and affixed my seal of office at Cleveland,Ohio, on this 27th day of October, 2015.

Lynn A. Regovich, Notary Public within and for the State of Ohio Commission expires June 14, 2018.

Page 120

THE STATE OF ) ) SS:COUNTY OF )

Before me, a Notary Public in and for saidstate and county, personally appeared theabove-named DANIEL TROY, who acknowledged that hedid sign the foregoing transcript and that the sameis a true and correct transcript of the testimonyso given. IN TESTIMONY WHEREOF, I have hereuntoaffixed my name and official seal at this day of , 2015.

DANIEL TROY

Notary PublicMy Commission expires:

lar

Page 121

DEPOSITION ERRATA SHEETPage No Line No Change to:

Reason for change:Page No Line No Change to:Reason for change:Page No Line No Change to:







Reason for change:

SIGNATURE: DATE: DANIEL TROY



Exhibit E




Exhibit E


Matthew Damschroder


1 (Pages 1 to 4)

Page 1

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF OHIO EASTERN DIVISION - - -

THE OHIO DEMOCRATIC, :PARTY, et al., : : Plaintiffs, : : CASE NO. 2:15-CV-1802 vs. : JUDGE WATSON : MAGISTRATE JUDGE KINGJON HUSTED, et al., : : Defendants. : - - - VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITIONof MATTHEW M. DAMSCHRODER, taken before me, ValerieJ. Sloas, a Notary Public in and for the State ofOhio, at the offices of the Ohio Attorney General, 30East Broad Street, Room 452, Columbus, Ohio, onThursday, October 29, 2015, at 9:37 a.m. - - -

ARMSTRONG & OKEY, INC. 222 East Town Street, Second Floor Columbus, Ohio 43215-4620 (614) 224-9481 - (800) 223-9481 FAX - (614) 224-5724 - - -

Page 2

1 APPEARANCES:2 PERKINS COIE, LLP

BY BRUCE V SPIVA, ESQ3 700 13th Street, NW, Suite 600

Washington, DC 20006-39604

McTIGUE, McGINNIS & COLOMBO, LLC5 BY DONALD J McTIGUE, ESQ

545 East Town Street6 Columbus, Ohio 43215-48017 OHIO DEMOCRATIC PARTY

BY ZACH WEST, ESQ8 Operations Director

340 Wast Fulton Street9 Columbus, Ohio 43215

10 On behalf of the Plaintiffs11 MIKE DeWINE, OHIO ATTORNEY GENERAL

BY RYAN L RICHARDSON, ESQ12 AND TIFFANY L CARWILE, ESQ

Assistant Attorneys General13 Constitutional Offices

30 East Broad Street, 16th Floor14 Columbus, Ohio 4321515 JON HUSTED, OHIO SECRETARY OF STATE

BY MATT WALSH, ESQ16 Elections Counsel

180 East Broad Street, 15th Floor17 Columbus, Ohio 4321518 On behalf of the Defendants19 Also present, Rachael Wadlington,

Paralegal, Ohio Attorney General;20 Kristen Colombo, Videographer21 - - -222324

Page 3

1 Thursday Morning Session,2 October 29, 2015.3 - - -4 STIPULATIONS5 It is stipulated by and between counsel6 for the respective parties that the deposition of7 Matthew M. Damschroder, a witness called by the8 Plaintiffs under the applicable Rules of Civil9 Procedure, may be reduced to writing in stenotype by

10 the Notary, whose notes thereafter may be transcribed11 out of the presence of the witness; and that proof of12 the official character and qualification of the13 Notary is waived.14 - - -15161718192021222324

Page 4

1 INDEX - - -

2 WITNESS: PAGE3 MATTHEW M. DAMSCHRODER

Cross-Examination by Mr. Spiva 64 - - -5 DAMSCHRODER DEPOSITION EXHIBITS IDENTIFIED6 1 - e-mail from Mr. Damschroder, 12/6/09 487 2 - e-mail from Mr. Damschroder, 8/11/10 688 3 - "Items Senate Would Like to Address 79

Prior to 2012," attached Referendum9 Petition, 2011

10 4 - e-mail from Ms. Bunting, e-mail from 89 Ms. Chappell, e-mail from Ms. Pelger,

11 7/13/1212 5 - e-mail from Mr. Husted, 5/13/12, e-mail 100

from Ms. Pelger, 5/14/1213

6 - e-mail from Mr. McClellan, 8/17/12 10214

7 - e-mail from Mr. Damschroder, 10/9/12, 11415 e-mail from Mr. McDonald, 10/10/1216 8 - e-mail from Mr. McClellan, 1/23/13 11717 9 - e-mail from Mr. Kevin DeWine, e-mail 126

from Ms. Pelger, e-mail from Mr.18 Damschroder, 2/13/1419 10 - e-mail from Mr. Damschroder, 4/28/14 12820 11 - e-mail from Mr. McClellan, e-mail 134

from Mr. Forbes, 5/6/1421

12 - e-mail from Mr. McDonald, 9/5/14, 14322 e-mail from Mr. McDonald, 9/6/1423 13 - Declaration of Matthew W. Damschroder, 150

attached documents24 - - -



Exhibit F


Matthew Damschroder


2 (Pages 5 to 8)

Page 5

1 - - -2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the3 videotaped deposition of Matthew Damschroder taken in4 the matter of the Ohio Democratic Party versus Jon5 Husted, et al., for the United States District Court,6 for the Southern District of Ohio, Eastern Division,7 Case No. 2:15-CV-1802.8 This deposition is being held at 30 East9 Broad Street in Columbus, Ohio on October 29th, 2015,

10 at 9:37 a m.11 My name is Kristen Colombo. I am the12 videographer. The court reporter is Valerie Sloas.13 Counsel will now introduce themselves.14 MR. SPIVA: Bruce Spiva for the15 Plaintiffs.16 MR. McTIGUE: Donald McTigue for17 Plaintiffs.18 MS. RICHARDSON: Ryan Richardson for the19 Secretary of State.20 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The court reporter21 will now swear in the witness.22 MR. SPIVA: Actually, we still have a23 few more attorneys to announce their presence.24 MS. CARWILE: Tiffany Carwile, Attorney

Page 6

1 General.2 MR. WALSH: Matt Walsh for the Secretary3 of State.4 MS. RICHARDSON: Go ahead.5 MS. WADLINGTON: Paralegal Rachael6 Wadlington, Constitutional Offices.7 MR. WEST: Zach West, Ohio Democratic8 Party.9 MR. SPIVA: Okay.

10 - - -11 MATTHEW M. DAMSCHRODER,12 being by me first duly sworn, as hereinafter13 certified, deposes and says as follows:14 CROSS-EXAMINATION15 BY MR. SPIVA:16 Q. Good morning, Mr. Damschroder. We met a17 few minutes ago. My name is Bruce Spiva. I'm with18 Perkins Coie, and I realize that you had your --19 usually I -- my first question is have you ever been20 deposed before, and I know that you've been deposed21 at least once, last week; is that right?22 A. Correct.23 Q. Okay. And you understand that24 deposition was what is known as a 30(b)(6)

Page 7

1 deposition, so in that deposition you were testifying2 on behalf of the Secretary of State's Office. This3 deposition is a little different in that it's more a4 typical deposition here. You're testifying as5 yourself.6 A. Yes.7 Q. Okay. Have you ever been deposed before8 that, before last week?9 A. Yes.

10 Q. How many times?11 A. I don't know for sure, but several.12 Q. Okay. And can you give me a brief13 description of what that was -- what those times were14 in connection with?15 A. All of them were related to my official16 duties either with the Secretary of State's Office or17 with the Franklin County Board of Elections.18 Q. Okay. Well, you probably don't need19 this, but just for the record, I'll go over some of20 the rules of the -- the road. I'm going to ask you21 questions, and you're, of course, obligated to answer22 them truthfully and fully, to the best of your23 ability. When you're answering a question, I'll try24 my best not to do what we do in normal conversation

Page 8

1 and jump in with another question or comment until2 you get your answer out, and if you could do the same3 with me, I'd appreciate it, just so the court4 reporter can -- can get everything down.5 A. Okay.6 Q. And then, as you know, verbal7 responses. Okay is good, yes, no, or further8 explanation, but the court reporter won't be able to9 catch our heads shaking and nodding, which -- which I

10 sometimes tend to fall into myself.11 If you need a break at any time, just12 let me know or your counsel know, and we can do that.13 The one exception is if there's a question pending on14 the floor, I'd ask that you go ahead and answer the15 question and then we can take a break.16 A. Okay.17 Q. If any of my questions aren't clear or18 you don't understanding them, please let me know and19 I'll do my best to try to clarify them. If you20 answer the question, I'll assume that you -- you --21 that it's clear.22 A. Okay.23 Q. Fair enough? So I know that -- that you24 went through some of this last week, but I want to



Exhibit F


Matthew Damschroder


3 (Pages 9 to 12)

Page 9

1 just briefly go over your -- your role and2 experience. You are presently the Chief of Staff to3 the Secretary of State, Mr. Husted?4 A. That's correct.5 Q. Okay. And how long have you been in6 that role, the Chief of Staff role?7 A. I've been Chief of Staff and Assistant8 Secretary of State since January of this year.9 Q. Okay. And prior to that you were the

10 State Elections Director and Deputy Assistant11 Secretary of State; is that correct?12 A. Correct.13 Q. And you were in that role from January14 2011 until you became the Chief of Staff?15 A. Correct.16 Q. And prior to that, prior to January17 2011, you were the -- you were with the Franklin18 County Board of Elections; is that right?19 A. That's correct.20 Q. And what role did you have at the21 Franklin County Board of Elections immediately prior22 to starting with the Secretary of State's Office?23 A. I was Deputy Director immediately prior.24 Q. Okay. And -- and from what period of

Page 10

1 time did you hold the Deputy Director role?2 A. From the board's reorganization in 20083 until -- until I went to the Secretary of State's4 Office I was Deputy Director.5 Q. Okay. And prior to being Deputy6 Director, what was your role? I take it you were at7 the Franklin County Board of Elections prior to being8 Deputy Director?9 A. Correct. I was Director from, I think,

10 June of 2003 until the reorganization in '08.11 Q. Prior to taking on the Director role,12 were -- what were you doing before that?13 A. I was the Executive Director of the14 Franklin County Republican Party.15 Q. And how long were the Executive Director16 of the Franklin County Republican Party?17 A. Immediately prior to being at the Board18 of Elections. I was at the party for, I think, about19 six months.20 Q. So you weren't there very long, it21 sounds like?22 A. Correct, at that time.23 Q. Okay. But you -- I mean, you were six24 months as Executive Director?

Page 11

1 A. Yes.2 Q. Had you -- did you have any other roles3 with the Franklin County Republican Party before you4 became the Executive Director?5 A. So I was at the county party as the6 Political Director in -- I think in June or July of7 2000 through, I think, the fall of 2001.8 Q. Okay. Any other roles with the Franklin9 County Republican Party?

10 A. I was an appointed member of the11 Executive Committee for a while.12 Q. And from what period of time was that?13 A. I don't remember.14 Q. All right. Do you have any role15 currently with the Franklin County Republican Party?16 A. No.17 Q. And tell me again, what was the -- the18 first role that you had with the -- with the19 Republican Party, the Franklin County Republican20 Party.21 A. In the summer of 2000 through fall of22 2001 I was the Political Director.23 Q. Okay. And prior to that, what -- what24 were you doing?

Page 12

1 A. I was -- prior to that, I was in the2 State Treasurer's Office.3 Q. What was your role in the State4 Treasurer's Office?5 A. I was kind of the legislative liaison.6 Q. Uh-huh. And just briefly, what --7 what -- what responsibilities did that entail?8 A. I worked with the -- the Director of --9 of Legislative Affairs, and then there was also kind

10 of -- another person who did legislation. I would go11 over and -- and sit with the committee and just kind12 of track what was going on in matters that had to do13 with the State Treasurer's Office.14 Q. Were you there during the same time15 period that Mr. Pat McDonald was in the Treasurer's16 Office?17 A. No.18 Q. I take it you know Mr. McDonald?19 A. I do.20 Q. How long have you known Mr. McDonald?21 A. I don't remember when we first met.22 Probably in 2000 or 2002, would be my guess.23 Q. What -- how did you meet him?24 A. I don't remember for sure how we met.



Exhibit F


Matthew Damschroder


4 (Pages 13 to 16)

Page 13

1 Q. Was it a work connection or personal2 connection?3 A. I think through -- through work and --4 and politics.5 Q. Uh-huh. Okay. What -- what role did6 you have prior to the -- your role at the Treasurer's7 Office?8 A. So prior to the Treasurer's Office, I9 helped on a campaign for Columbus City Council and

10 was also a licensed insurance agent with John11 Hancock.12 Q. How -- how long were you with John13 Hancock?14 A. About a year and a half or so.15 Q. Okay.16 A. Maybe a year -- a little over a year. I17 don't remember exactly how long.18 Q. Okay. And maybe if you can just take me19 back from there. You can give me the CliffsNotes20 version, but just from John Hancock back to college21 or graduate school.22 A. Before I went to work for John Hancock,23 I was in college.24 Q. Okay. Where did you go to school?

Page 14

1 A. I graduated from The Ohio State2 University.3 Q. What year did you graduate?4 A. Fall -- no. Spring of '98.5 Q. And how -- how did you first met6 Secretary Husted?7 A. When I was at the Board of Elections, he8 was Speaker of the Ohio House of Representatives and9 met him in various occasions in his role as Speaker.

10 Q. Okay. Are you -- do you know when early11 in-person voting first started in Ohio?12 A. A very long time ago.13 Q. Well, it will start to seeming less like14 a long time as --15 A. Sure. My understanding is that16 in-person absentee voting existed when Ohio began17 allowing absentee voting, which I think was the '60s18 or the '70s. I don't know for sure.19 Q. I'm sorry, let me just make sure I'm20 clear. Early in-person voting? That's what I was21 talking about, is early in-person voting.22 A. Yes.23 Q. And it's your understanding that started24 in the -- in the 1960s?

Page 15

1 A. Yes.2 Q. Okay. And in terms of no-excuse3 absentee voting, what is your understanding of when4 that began?5 A. First election for no-excuse, in-person6 absentee voting began in primary of 2006.7 Q. Okay. And the early in-person voting,8 switching back to that for a second, that you were9 referring to a minute ago, that it's your

10 understanding began in the '60s, that, I take it, was11 not no-excuse, in-person absentee voting?12 A. That's correct. To get an absentee13 ballot prior to the 2006 primary election, I can't14 remember the legislation, the bill that passed at the15 end of '05, but prior to that, whether to get an16 in-person absentee ballot or by mail absentee ballot,17 a person had to have one of, I think, a dozen or so18 qualifying reasons to receive an absentee ballot.19 Q. Okay. And in that time frame, in the20 2005, beginning of 2006, both no-excuse, in-person21 absentee voting and no-excuse by mail absentee22 voting, that's when both of those methods of voting23 were established in the State of Ohio?24 A. Would you mind restating the question?

Page 16

1 I lost you for a second.2 Q. Yeah, it was a little long. I might3 have got lost a little bit there, but when -- when --4 no-excuse, in-person voting, that began approximately5 early 2006; is that correct?6 A. Right. So the legislation that passed7 at the end of '05, beginning of '06, allowed a person8 requesting an absentee ballot, either by mail or in9 person, to no longer have to have one of the dozen or

10 so qualifying reasons in order to get the ballot.11 Q. Okay. And when I refer in the12 deposition to early in-person voting, I'm -- I'm13 referring to early in-person, no-excuse absentee14 voting. Is that -- is that fair?15 A. So, like, from 2006 forward?16 Q. Yes.17 A. Okay.18 Q. Unless I expressly state otherwise, but19 that's -- that's really what I'm referring to, is20 the -- the no-excuse, early in-person voting that21 started in 2006.22 A. Okay.23 Q. And likewise, when I'm referring to24 absentee voting, I'm referring to the no-excuse by



Exhibit F


Matthew Damschroder


5 (Pages 17 to 20)

Page 17

1 mail absentee voting that -- that likewise began in2 approximately 2006.3 A. Okay.4 Q. All right. What is your understanding5 of why Ohio adopted no-excuse, in-person absentee6 voting?7 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.8 A. So I think there's -- there's two9 reasons. I think that one of -- well, first,

10 Secretary Blackwell had proposed no-fault absentee11 voting during his first term as Secretary of -- as12 Secretary of State. I think he was elected first in13 '98, so the idea had been around for a while, and so14 after the 2004 election, there were a number of15 election -- county election officials, including16 myself, who wanted to have no-fault absentee voting17 partially because of the lines that we experienced on18 Election Day in 2004, and I think there were also19 others.20 As Mr. McTigue will remember, there were21 a series of constitutional amendments on the ballot22 in 2005, and one of them was to propose no-fault23 absentee voting, and so I think there were some who24 wanted to enact no-fault absentee as a legislative

Page 18

1 proposal as opposed to a constitutional proposal.2 Q. Uh-huh. And -- was there anything else?3 A. No.4 Q. Okay. And you're familiar with the term5 Golden Week, I take it?6 A. Yes.7 Q. Okay. And I take it that Golden Week8 was adopted at the same time as no-fault --9 no-excuse, sorry, in-person absentee voting?

10 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.11 A. I would say for clarity purposes, prior12 to the no-fault absentee law going into place in13 2006, a person who was eligible for an absentee14 ballot under the series of reasons was also able to15 register up until the close of registration and16 during that overlap period also register to vote and17 cast their absentee ballot; so it wasn't -- the18 Golden Week thing wasn't created as a result of -- of19 no-fault absentee being enacted in 2006.20 Q. And prior to -- to 2006, could someone21 who had one of the statutory reasons for getting an22 absentee ballot, say, come in person to the location,23 which I take it was the Board of Elections, where you24 could go in person and get an absentee ballot, could

Page 19

1 they come prior to 30 days before the election, pick2 up -- pick up the ballot and cast it at -- on the3 same day?4 A. Yes.5 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.6 Q. Was there any change, other than not7 meeting one of the statutory reasons, to that period,8 that one-week period prior to the close of books, was9 there any change as a result of the legislation that

10 passed in -- in late 2005?11 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.12 A. No.13 Q. Okay. So in your understanding, there14 was basically continuity in terms of Golden Week15 between kind of the pre-2006 period and the post-200616 period; is that fair?17 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.18 A. So the constitution, the state's19 constitution ended -- ends registration for an20 election 30 days before that election, and at the21 time, both pre-2006 and at the time in two22 thousand -- you know, the beginning of 2006, when23 no-fault absentee was adopted, absentee ballots were24 available 35 days before the election; so both before

Page 20

1 the change in 2006 and then afterwards, in 2006, a2 person, during that overlap period, could both3 register to vote and cast an absentee ballot.4 Q. I'm going to refer to that period, as we5 have been, I think, as the period right before the6 close of books, that seven-day period as Golden Week.7 Were there -- were there problems that -- that Golden8 Week created for the administration of elections?9 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.

10 A. So I don't know that -- I would use the11 word challenge, as opposed to "problems." There is a12 challenge for the county election official in -- at13 the time a person who is both registering to vote and14 requesting an absentee ballot, there is a logistical15 challenge to getting the person into the county voter16 registration system in order to then immediately get17 that person the correct ballot style, the ballot18 style being the combination of questions and19 candidates for where they live. So there's a unique20 challenge there.21 There's also the communication challenge22 of notifying if the person has moved from one county23 to another, registering in that new county, quickly24 notifying the other county that that person has



Exhibit F


Matthew Damschroder


6 (Pages 21 to 24)

Page 21

1 changed their registration, so it can be canceled in2 the other county, and then, I think like I testified3 previously, previously being last week's deposition,4 that there is a -- a unique risk of -- of a potential5 for -- for election falsification, where a person who6 would not -- who might not be eligible to register7 and vote in Ohio could come in, register and cast8 their ballot at the same time.9 Q. Okay. Any of those risks that you just

10 identified or challenges, were -- were they any11 different prior to the changes in laws we've talked12 about? Prior to the 2006 change, were they different13 before or after those changes?14 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.15 A. I think the -- the logistical and the16 unique risk challenges were still present. I would17 say that, you know, because of the change from18 allow -- from allowing only individuals who were19 qualified under the dozen or so reasons to being --20 to no-fault absentee, you know, potentially increased21 the -- the potential scale of unique kind of risk and22 the logistical challenges.23 Q. But I take it that the challenge of24 getting them the correct ballot style, that was a

Page 22

1 challenge that the Board of Elections faced both2 before and after the changes that were made in 2006?3 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.4 A. So the challenge, that logistical5 challenge still exists, but because more people were6 eligible to cast an absentee, the -- this -- the7 scale of the challenge increased.8 Q. Okay. And would you say the same is9 true in terms of notifying the other county that the

10 person had moved, notifying them in time?11 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.12 A. So similar to -- to my previous answer,13 that the scale of the challenge increased.14 Q. Uh-huh. Okay. Let me ask you about the15 risk of election falsification that you -- you16 mentioned. As I understand it, ballots cast during17 Golden Week are not counted during Golden Week; is18 that correct?19 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.20 A. Yes. State law does not permit the21 tabulation of any ballot prior to the close of polls22 on Election Day.23 Q. And they are kept segregated as are24 other absentee -- other types of absentee ballots; is

Page 23

1 that -- is that correct?2 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.3 A. So absentee ballots can't be opened or4 scanned until the 10th day before the election, so5 the board would certainly begin making the6 determinations of which ballots can be opened or not,7 which envelopes can be opened or not based on the8 information on the envelope prior to the 10th --9 before the 10th day and certainly immediately after

10 the ballot has been cast, but they're not opened and11 the ballot separated from the envelopes until at12 least the 10th day.13 Q. Okay. And as I understand it, SB 23814 repealed Golden Week --15 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.16 Q. -- is that correct?17 A. So Senate Bill 238 changed the start of18 nonmilitary and overseas absentee voting until the19 day after the close of registration.20 Q. An individual still can register to vote21 during that seven-day period prior to the close of22 books; is that correct?23 A. Yes.24 Q. And that same person who registers in

Page 24

1 the seven days prior to the close of books can then2 vote even in the early voting period after the close3 of books; correct?4 A. Yes.5 Q. Okay. And so the -- the challenge with6 respect to election falsification, that -- that's --7 to the extent that exists, it still exists with --8 with respect to someone who registers that close to9 the close of books --

10 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.11 Q. -- is that fair?12 A. So the challenge becomes different. You13 know, there's still -- the challenge would still14 exist to get the registration form kind of in the15 front of the line, so to speak, of all of the other16 registrations that are coming in, so that the17 absentee ballots are ready to go out the door the day18 after the close of registration, so the challenge19 still exits. It becomes a different kind of20 challenge --21 Q. Uh-huh.22 A. -- certainly than if the person is23 standing right in front of you at the same time.24 Q. Uh-huh. Are you aware of any instances



Exhibit F


Matthew Damschroder


7 (Pages 25 to 28)

Page 25

1 of fraud that were attempted in connection with --2 with Golden Week?3 A. So, in 2008, I would say we had our --4 our biggest struggle in Franklin County with -- with5 allegations of fraud. There were a number of college6 students who came to Franklin County in an effort to7 help turn people out for the presidential election.8 They were a great group of young -- young folks,9 mostly all law students, and they formed, I think, a

10 nonprofit organization to receive funding to help pay11 for them to do voter registration drives and get12 people to -- to the early vote center. Many of them13 registered in Ohio and cast an absentee ballot during14 that Golden Week period and -- but fully intended to15 go back to their home or to their college. They were16 only in Ohio temporarily.17 A number of those students, as the18 various allegations in the media started to come to19 light about Golden Week, came forward to the county20 prosecutor and said hey, listen, you know, we may not21 have, you know, fully and properly understood Ohio22 law, and so, you know, can we withdraw our23 registration and withdraw our ballots. We did that.24 And so -- and there were -- there were other media

Page 26

1 reports.2 We worked with our county prosecutor3 to -- to have his folks -- when we mailed out an4 acknowledgment card after a person registered and it5 came back as undeliverable, in some cases we asked6 the prosecutor to kind of go out and check, and the7 prosecutor would -- the investigator would go out,8 you know, find an empty house, talk to the landlord,9 you know, has there been a lease on the house for a

10 number of -- you know, for a number of years.11 In the end, Director Stinziano and I12 with -- advised our board, for all of those ballots13 that had not been withdrawn, advised our board to14 count those ballots because the -- the fact that an15 acknowledgment card had come back as undeliverable16 and that a person had not then responded to the17 confirmation card that we sent was not a valid reason18 under state law for rejecting their ballot, and so we19 counted those ballots.20 I think it's important, you know, to21 note, and my guess is you'll probably ask me soon,22 the scale of those problems, they're not huge.23 It's -- it's the balance between, you know, we want24 to make it easy to vote in Ohio and at the same time

Page 27

1 hard to cheat in Ohio, and we think that there is --2 that we -- you know, that the State of Ohio has3 achieved that balance.4 Q. I take it that you receive returned5 validation cards probably fairly frequently even not6 in connection with Golden Week; is that accurate?7 A. Yes.8 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.9 Q. Okay. And I assume the practice, unless

10 you have reason to believe that it's fraudulent, is11 to count those ballots whether it's received during12 Golden Week or sometime before that; is that fair?13 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection. And if I14 may, I just want to make sure that we're clear about15 whether we're asking questions about his time during16 the Secretary of State's Office or at Franklin17 County, because I think the questions have been18 discussing both.19 MR. SPIVA: I'm asking about in his20 experience.21 BY MR. SPIVA:22 Q. To the extent you have experience in23 either capacities, I'm not limiting it to -- to one24 or the other.

Page 28

1 A. Can you reask the question? I'm sorry.2 Q. Sure. I take it that unless there's3 some indication of fraud, that when a verification4 is -- mail verification is returned, whether it is5 connected with a registration during Golden Week or6 sometime before Golden Week, that -- that the7 practice is to count those ballots; is that correct?8 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.9 A. So when we receive a registration, when

10 "we," the Board of Elections, receives a11 registration, state law requires them to send an12 acknowledgment card to the voter telling them their13 polling place. If that card comes back as14 undeliverable, then they send a confirmation card to15 the person by forwardable mail, and so I think the16 answer to your question is whether at that -- at that17 time, if a person registered to vote during Golden18 Week and requested an absentee during Golden Week or19 after Golden Week or if they registered outside of20 Golden Week, that person was -- it was in a21 confirmation status because the card had come back as22 undeliverable, we still counted the ballot.23 Q. Have there -- in connection with the24 incident you were describing a minute ago about the



Exhibit F


Matthew Damschroder


8 (Pages 29 to 32)

Page 29

1 students who were, I guess, organizing, to your2 knowledge, did any of those students end up casting a3 ballot that was improperly counted?4 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.5 A. So my recollection is that any of them6 or all of them that had registered to vote improperly7 and had cast a ballot at that time asked the board to8 withdraw the ballot, and none of those were counted.9 Q. And this is really asking kind of in

10 terms of, you know, any role you had. How many11 instances of -- how many prosecutions have there been12 for in-person voting fraud?13 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.14 A. I don't know for sure. You know, one of15 the challenges that -- that I think everybody has in16 kind of tracking these, tracking these kinds of17 things is, you know, you have things that are --18 where the prosecutor declines to, you know, to file19 charges for whatever reason. In some cases charges20 are filed, and then it's pled down to a misdemeanor,21 which doesn't then actually become categorized as22 election falsification or election fraud, and then23 you have others where there is prosecution.24 During my time in Franklin County, I

Page 30

1 think we had a dozen or so total absentee-ballot2 related prosecutions, some of which resulted in --3 in -- in felony convictions, others which were -- you4 know, resulted in, you know, plea deals with5 misdemeanors, and I think there was one that I recall6 that was related to -- to -- to Golden Week7 registration.8 Q. And were the others related to mail-in9 absentee ballots?

10 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.11 A. Yes, those were related to -- to mail-in12 absentee ballots, and I -- I think there were also13 some that were in-person Election Day prosecutions.14 Q. Uh-huh. And do you recall how many15 in-person Election Day prosecutions --16 A. I lumped all those together. I'm sorry.17 For clarity purposes, I lumped all those different18 things together in my earlier number.19 Q. All right. But that, the 12 that you20 mentioned, that's during the period from21 approximately 2000 through 2011, when you were with22 Franklin County?23 A. It would be during 2003 to 2010, when I24 was with Franklin County.

Page 31

1 Q. Okay.2 A. If you don't mind, at some point when3 it's convenient for you, if we could take a rest room4 break --5 Q. Absolutely. We can take one right now.6 A. Okay. Wonderful.7 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: One moment. Off the8 record at 10:09.9 (Recess taken.)

10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On the record at11 10:12.12 BY MR. SPIVA:13 Q. So, Mr. Damschroder, there were -- you14 were, just a minute ago, talking about the -- the15 change, the elimination of Golden Week, and that16 happened in 2014; is that correct?17 A. So the -- I think Senate Bill 238 was18 enacted in 2014, correct.19 Q. Okay. When did you first learn of any20 potential changes to -- to eliminate Golden Week?21 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.22 A. In 2009.23 Q. And how did -- how did you learn24 about -- about them?

Page 32

1 A. So in two thousand -- it was 2009, 20102 or so, there were a group of legislators, Democrats3 and Republicans, who were working together with then4 Secretary Jennifer Brunner to revise a whole number5 of election-related laws, and one of the items that6 was in both of the bills that emerged from the7 Democrat majority House and the Republican majority8 Senate was legislation that eliminated the so-called9 Golden Week period.

10 Q. Did the legislation that you said made11 it out of the -- at that time I take it was the12 Democratic-controlled House?13 A. Yes.14 Q. Did that have any other changes to the15 law in addition to eliminating Golden Week?16 A. It did, but I don't remember all the17 different -- all the different aspects.18 Q. Okay. Did it contain some other form of19 same-day registration or a proposal for same-day20 registration?21 A. No.22 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.23 Q. Okay. In terms of Senate Bill 238, I24 take it by then the House was majority Republican



Exhibit F


Matthew Damschroder


9 (Pages 33 to 36)

Page 33

1 when that passed?2 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.3 A. When Senate Bill 238 was passed, yes,4 both chambers were Republican majority.5 Q. Do you know how many Democrats voted for6 Senate Bill 238?7 A. I don't.8 Q. Was it any?9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. And you mentioned that there were a11 group of legislatures -- legislators back in the 200912 to 2010 period, you said there were some Democrats13 and some Republicans. Do you recall the Democrats14 who favored eliminating Golden Week?15 A. My recollection is that the two primary16 sponsors of the -- of the House bill were Danny17 Stewart here from Franklin County and also Tracy18 Heard from Franklin County.19 Q. Anybody else that you can recall?20 A. Those are -- those are the two that I21 remember.22 Q. And what happened to the legislation23 that passed out of the House?24 A. So there were -- there were two bills.

Page 34

1 One that passed out of the House, one that passed out2 of the Senate, and my recollection is that there was3 kind of a -- a working group that consisted of -- my4 understanding was Dan Stewart from the House and Bill5 Seitz, Republican State Senator from the Senate, and6 then Secretary Brunner and then also her Legislative7 Affairs person, Mike Stinziano, that the four of them8 kind of formed the primary working group to kind of9 negotiate a compromise between -- between the two,

10 the two bills.11 Q. Uh-huh, uh-huh. And Mr. Stinziano,12 he -- he was a State Representative?13 A. Yes.14 Q. Okay. Actually, I don't know if you --15 A. Right. So I should probably -- for16 clarity purposes, there's two Mike Stinzianos.17 Q. Okay.18 A. There's Mike Stinziano, Sr., who worked19 for Secretary Brunner as -- as her Legislative20 Director. He was a State Senate -- or a State21 Representative -- Don would know better than me --22 from the 1970s to, I think, the early 1990s --23 Q. Uh-huh.24 A. -- and then his son, Michael Stinziano,

Page 35

1 also worked for Secretary Brunner before he came to2 work with the Franklin County Board of Elections, and3 he is now a State Representative and will, in a4 couple weeks -- I guess next week likely win a seat5 on Columbus City Council.6 Q. Uh-huh, uh-huh. And I take it that the7 Stinzianos are -- are Democrats?8 A. Correct.9 Q. And -- and Secretary Brunner was also a

10 Democrat; correct?11 A. Correct.12 Q. And so this group, they formed a working13 group, and then what -- what came of that?14 A. I don't know for -- for sure all of15 the -- all of the things that transpired kind of in16 the room. I wasn't a part of the working group, but17 ultimately, no legislation was passed in that General18 Assembly. I think time just ran out.19 Q. Okay. To your knowledge, did former20 Secretary Brunner support Senate Bill 238, the bill21 in the past?22 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.23 A. Not that I know of. I don't know24 whether she did or didn't.

Page 36

1 Q. Okay. And how about with either of the2 Stinzianos, did either of them support Senate Bill3 238?4 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.5 A. I don't know one way or the other.6 Q. And how about the -- I think you had7 mentioned Mr. Stewart and Ms. Heard, I think were two8 Democrats in Franklin County that you said had been9 part of this earlier effort, did either of them

10 support 238?11 A. I think --12 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.13 A. I think at that point they had been term14 limited out of the General Assembly.15 Q. And what involvement, if any, did you16 have in this earlier -- these earlier discussions17 about potentially eliminating Golden Week?18 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.19 A. I don't recall any -- any role at all.20 Q. Is this just something you became aware21 of in your role at the Franklin -- I guess at that22 period you were still at the Franklin County Board of23 Elections?24 A. Correct.



Exhibit F


Matthew Damschroder


10 (Pages 37 to 40)

Page 37

1 Q. Did you actively promote a change in the2 law, and I'm -- not in connection -- I'm not asking3 you in connection with the -- the group that you just4 described, but in any connection to -- to eliminate5 Golden Week?6 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.7 A. So during my period at the Board of8 Elections I thought that that was a reasonable change9 to Ohio law, as were I think a number of the things

10 that were in both the House version and the Senate11 version.12 Q. And why did you think it was a13 reasonable change to Ohio law?14 A. I think based on the experience that I15 described earlier from our experience in Franklin16 County in 2008.17 Q. Uh-huh. Are you talking about the18 situation with the students?19 A. Yeah, the situation with our -- our --20 our incidents with -- with alleged allegations of --21 alleged election falsification related to the -- the22 overlap period.23 Q. And I may have -- I may either have24 forgotten or missed it, but other than the students,

Page 38

1 was there -- were there other instances of alleged2 falsification connected to Golden Week in the 20083 period?4 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.5 A. Yes. So with my earlier testimony, we6 had -- there were people who registered during the7 Golden Week period and cast a ballot. We mailed out8 the acknowledgement card. It came back as9 undeliverable, and the -- we asked the prosecutor's

10 investigator to -- to go out. There were a couple of11 instances where, you know, the house was empty, no12 current lease on the property; so there were some of13 those instances.14 I also failed to -- to recall until now15 that there were also some McCain operatives who had16 done the same thing, who had registered and -- and17 cast a ballot, and then -- I think at the same time18 frame or so as the -- the students. I think the --19 the papers called them the Borwnlee 13. There were20 also some -- some McCain operatives who had done the21 same thing, who then came forward and asked for their22 ballots to be withdrawn.23 Q. Okay. So with respect to the students,24 whether it was the McCain students or the Obama

Page 39

1 students, I take it all -- as far as you know, all of2 them recanted and -- and none of their ballots were3 actually counted?4 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.5 A. Yeah. My recollection is that all of6 those individuals from -- the students from the7 nonprofit group and the McCain operatives all8 requested that their registration and ballots be9 withdrawn and no charge be filed related to that, and

10 we did that, but the ballots from -- there were other11 ballots from individuals whose registrations -- whose12 acknowledgement cards came back as undeliverable,13 who, when the prosecutor went and looked at it, you14 know, they couldn't validate that anybody indeed15 lived -- did live there, those ballots did count.16 Q. Okay. And -- but no prosecutions17 were -- were initiated with respect to those18 individuals that -- where the card came back as19 undeliverable and the prosecutor went out and saw20 that the house had been empty?21 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.22 A. I can't speak to the specifics about23 what the prosecutor did or didn't do. After -- after24 they did an initial investigation, I don't know

Page 40

1 whether they did indictments and just couldn't find2 people. I don't -- I don't -- I don't know what they3 did.4 Q. You're not aware of any indictments5 having resulted from that?6 A. Not -- not that I know of.7 Q. And you were never, I assume, called to8 testify in a -- in a criminal case prosecuting fraud9 based on these individuals that had the return cards?

10 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.11 A. That's my recollection.12 Q. Okay.13 A. I was called to testify on other -- on14 at least one other absentee-related, double-voting15 kind of thing, but I don't remember for sure if that16 had a Golden Week implication or not.17 Q. Were there any other reasons that in18 this 2009, 2010 time frame that you thought --19 putting aside what you've already testified about,20 the potential for falsification, were there other21 reasons why you thought eliminating Golden Week would22 be a reasonable change in Ohio election law?23 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.24 A. So I think consistent with my earlier



Exhibit F


Matthew Damschroder


11 (Pages 41 to 44)

Page 41

1 testimony, I think just the -- to me, the primary2 issues there were the election administration3 challenges.4 Q. Uh-huh.5 MS. RICHARDSON: Excuse me.6 MR. SPIVA: Bless you.7 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.8 BY MR. SPIVA:9 Q. And those challenges, I think -- other

10 than what you've already testified about in terms of11 the correct ballot style and notifying a county if12 someone had moved, were there -- was there anything13 else?14 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection. Asked and15 answered.16 A. Yeah, those were the challenges I was17 referring to.18 Q. Okay. And outside of those challenges19 and the falsification issue, was there any other20 reason you thought it would be reasonable to21 eliminate Golden Week?22 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection. Asked and23 answered.24 A. Not that I -- not that I had.

Page 42

1 Q. And what did you do, if anything, to try2 to promote that change in the law to eliminate Golden3 Week?4 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.5 A. During which period are you speaking?6 Q. Why don't we start with kind of this7 2009, 2010 period, when you -- you said you first8 became aware of that.9 A. So during my period with the Franklin

10 County Board of Elections, it's likely that I11 testified in committee in -- in both Houses on the12 specific legislation that was going through, but I13 don't remember specifically that I did or what I14 said, but it would -- it would -- it would not be15 unlikely that I would have done that.16 Q. Uh-huh. Okay. And then after that,17 were there -- after that time period when -- after18 you moved to the Secretary of -- Secretary of State's19 Office, were there other ways in which you promoted20 the change in the law that ultimately eliminated21 Golden Week?22 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.23 A. No.24 Q. You mentioned a minute ago that there

Page 43

1 were other at least I think contemplated changes, if2 not, I guess, other changes that actually became law.3 Can you tell me about what other changes you were --4 you were referring to?5 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.6 A. So if I understand your question7 correctly, you're talking about during my period at8 Franklin County and the House and the Senate bills9 that were kind of going through at the same time?

10 Q. Exactly.11 A. Yeah, I don't remember specifically all12 the different things that were -- that were involved13 with -- with those two proposals, so I don't remember14 for sure what else was in those two, those two15 different bills.16 Q. Okay. At the time that you were at the17 Franklin County Board of Elections, did you have any18 knowledge concerning the demographics of people19 who -- of the people who used Golden Week?20 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.21 A. Not specifically, no.22 Q. Did you have a general sense of that?23 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.24 A. So, you know, because registration in

Page 44

1 Ohio isn't tracked by race, you know, we're not able2 to -- to run a report or anything like that, so -- so3 no, I don't -- I don't -- you know, I don't think4 we -- we knew, you know, who uses it and who doesn't,5 those kinds of things.6 Q. Uh-huh. How about for the early voting7 period in general, did you have a sense of the8 demographics of people who used -- not just focusing9 on Golden Week, but the whole early voting period.

10 Did you have a sense of the demographics of people11 who used the early voting period?12 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.13 A. No.14 Q. Did you have a sense of whether Golden15 Week was used by one party or the other more or less?16 In other words, did you have a sense that, say,17 Democrats used Golden Week more than Republicans?18 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.19 A. No. My sense was, based on the numbers20 that we looked at, at the time it was -- actually, as21 a percentage of -- of the whole of who was voting, it22 was actually a very small percentage of people who23 were registering to vote for the first time and24 casting a ballot or even slightly more, but still



Exhibit F


Matthew Damschroder


12 (Pages 45 to 48)

Page 45

1 very few changing their address and casting a ballot2 at the same time.3 Q. Did you have a sense in terms of the4 whole early voting period, whether one party or the5 other utilized it more than the other?6 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.7 A. No, not really.8 Q. And you mentioned that the numbers of9 individuals who either changed their registration or

10 registered for the first time during Golden Week was11 relatively small.12 A. Uh-huh.13 Q. Did you view the number of people who14 used Golden Week, whether or not they were first-time15 registrants or people who were changing their16 registration, did you view that number as relatively17 small?18 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.19 A. Would you mind restating that? I'm20 sorry.21 Q. Yeah.22 A. I lost you.23 Q. Taking the whole number of people who24 voted, who -- who -- who voted during Golden Week,

Page 46

1 whether or not they registered or -- or changed their2 registration, what was your sense of the magnitude of3 those numbers?4 A. So if I understand your correct -- your5 question correctly, are -- are you asking whether the6 percentage of people who cast a ballot, regardless of7 their registration status, during the Golden Week8 period was -- you know, what my characterization of9 that number is relative to the entire 35-day period?

10 Q. Yes.11 A. So I would say of the five weeks, it was12 relatively low related to -- to the whole.13 Q. Uh-huh. Did you have a sense in terms14 of whether that number between presidential15 elections, whether that number was growing or not?16 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.17 A. I don't know that I have a sense of that18 other than to say that overall voter participation in19 a presidential is greater than in a gubernatorial,20 greater than a municipal election, and so at least in21 my time in Franklin County, after no-fault absentee22 started and we were mailing out absentee ballot23 applications, that the percentage of the people24 voting absentee remained relatively stable over the

Page 47

1 type of election, but that the percentage of absentee2 who were voting in person was larger in a3 presidential than in a gubernatorial, than in a4 municipal.5 Q. Okay. And let's say just comparing 20086 to 2012, would it be accurate to say that the number7 of people, just focusing on Golden Week for the8 moment, that the number of people voting during9 Golden Week was much larger in 2012 than it had been

10 in 2008?11 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.12 A. Excuse me. I don't know -- I don't know13 that that's the case.14 Q. You don't know one way or the other15 whether that's the case?16 A. I don't.17 Q. Okay. And how about with respect to the18 whole early voting period, comparing 2012 to 2008, do19 you have a sense of the relative numbers, and I'm not20 asking for the specific number, but in terms of21 whether it was growing or not?22 A. My recollection is that at least23 statewide there were more absentee ballots cast in24 2012 than in 2008.

Page 48

1 Q. And I take it in that you're including2 both mail absentee ballots and in-person absentee3 ballots?4 A. I am.5 Q. Do you have a sense of whether in-person6 absentee voting grew between 2008 and 2012?7 A. As I sit here right now, I don't8 remember. It may be in my Declaration. I can't9 remember for sure.

10 Q. Okay. Actually, it may be a good time11 now to -- there are some documents I want to show you12 and ask you some questions about, so maybe we'll mark13 our first exhibit. Let me give you what will be14 marked as Damschroder 1.15 (EXHIBIT MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)16 MR. SPIVA: Sorry, I only have one copy.17 I -- I mean, I only have one extra copy. I've got my18 own and the witness'.19 BY MR. SPIVA:20 Q. Mr. Damschroder, if you could just take21 a look at that for a minute and let me know -- I have22 a few specific questions about it. Just tell me when23 you're ready.24 A. I'm sorry. Yes, I'm ready.



Exhibit F


Matthew Damschroder


13 (Pages 49 to 52)

Page 49

1 Q. Okay. Just -- just for the record the2 Bates number on this is SEI007454, and I can3 represent to you that that was produced by Senator4 Seitz' office. This appears to be an e-mail from5 you, Mr. Damschroder, to John Husted and Jim Hughes6 dated December 6th, 2009; is that correct?7 A. Yes.8 Q. Okay. And at the time in 2009 I take it9 that you were still, I guess, a Deputy Director at

10 the Franklin County Board of Elections?11 A. Yes, I was.12 Q. Uh-huh. And the "subject" is,13 "Additional Suggestions for Sub SB 8." Can you14 explain what that -- what SB 8 is or was?15 A. I think "Sub" is Substitute. "SB" is16 Senate Bill 8, was, if my recollection serves, the17 Senate version of the bill that I was discussing18 earlier.19 Q. So which bill were you discussing20 earlier?21 A. So when we talked earlier about that22 there were two different bills in the General23 Assembly, a House Bill and a Senate bill, this Sub --24 Substitute Senate Bill 8 I think is the Senate Bill I

Page 50

1 was referring to earlier.2 Q. Okay. Were there any hearings on SB 8?3 A. I -- I believe there were. I don't know4 for sure, but I would imagine that there were.5 Q. And do you recall whether there was any6 debate on the floor of the Senate over SB 8?7 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.8 A. I don't know for sure, but I would9 imagine that there was.

10 Q. Okay. And at this point I take it Mr.11 Husted is the Secretary of State, Secretary of State12 Husted?13 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.14 A. In 2009, Mr. Husted was -- I think he15 was in the State Senate in 2009.16 Q. Oh, okay. He hadn't quite -- he hadn't17 yet become the Secretary of State. And who is Mr.18 Hughes?19 A. Jim Hughes, in 2009, I believe was a20 State Senator -- is still a State Senator.21 Q. Okay. I notice that you sent this22 e-mail from a Hot Mail account. Is that your23 personnel Hot Mail account?24 A. It is.

Page 51

1 Q. Do you know why you would have2 communicated with them via your personal e-mail?3 A. Well, at least in this instance it was4 on a Sunday evening, so I think that's probably --5 that's what I had at home probably.6 Q. Okay. At that point you didn't have7 access to your work e-mail from -- from home?8 A. I think that's right.9 Q. Okay. And you -- you say in the first

10 sentence, "Following is a list summary of the items11 that are suggestions for enhancing Sub SB 8 (the12 detail information including section references and13 bill line numbers is contained in the attached14 document)." Is that -- first of all, did I read that15 correctly?16 A. Yes. So it says, "Following is a list17 summary of the items that are suggestions for18 enhancing Sub Senate Bill 8."19 Q. These were -- these were changes that --20 that you were proposing to make to -- to Sub 8?21 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.22 Q. SB 8. Sorry.23 A. So, yes, I think these were a list of --24 of suggestions that I was making.

Page 52

1 Q. Uh-huh. Okay. The second suggestion --2 I take it the list on the second page that has the3 Bates number 7455, I take it that's -- that's a --4 that's the summary list of suggestions you were5 making?6 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.7 A. Yes.8 Q. Okay. In the second one you say,9 "Require a county Board of Elections to notify its

10 county commissioners by 10/1 of the prior year before11 establishing multiple in-person voting locations -12 this would mean no multiple in-person voting13 locations in 2010."14 When you refer to multiple in-person15 voting locations, what -- what were you referring to?16 A. So I don't remember for sure, but my17 recollection is that after the -- in 2008 there were18 controversies about tie votes from Boards of19 Elections on the hours and days of in-person absentee20 voting, and the Secretary of State broke -- then21 Secretary Brunner broke those ties different ways,22 including in Franklin County, and there was a sense23 after the 2008 election that those decisions24 shouldn't be made -- those tie votes shouldn't be



Exhibit F


Matthew Damschroder


14 (Pages 53 to 56)

Page 53

1 broken by the Secretary of State, that those kind of2 issues should be resolved by the bipartisan county3 Board of Elections, and so there was a bill, I don't4 remember the number, that went through the5 legislature at the end of 2008 to require a6 supermajority of the Board of Elections for days and7 hours and those kinds of things, and then Governor8 Strickland ended up vetoing that legislation. And so9 it's my recollection that either as a part of either

10 Senate Bill 8 or the House version, that there was11 a -- there was discussion -- I can't remember if it12 was actually in the legislation or something that was13 proposed that would have allowed Boards of Elections14 to create multiple in-person absentee voting sites,15 in the context that the county commissioners, who16 ultimately fund the operations of the Board of17 Elections out of the county general fund from sales18 tax revenue, that the county commissioners would have19 to sign off on that funding in advance of the20 election, just like they do poll worker pay21 increases, and that the decision to -- whether to22 establish multiple would require a supermajority of23 the bipartisan Board of Elections and that the24 elected Secretary of State wouldn't allow -- be

Page 54

1 allowed to break that tie vote.2 Q. Uh-huh. And I take it that the proposal3 here, that if it -- this is December of 2009, that4 one of the points you're making in the -- in the5 second point is that if you were to require that kind6 of a supermajority by 10/1 of the prior year, that7 there could -- there could be no multiple early8 in-person voting sites set up for the 2010 election;9 is that correct?

10 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.11 A. So if the -- if this idea, and I can't12 remember where it was in the legislative process,13 were to become law, a suggestion -- because of my14 experience with -- with at least Franklin County's15 commissioners, who were always very generous but not16 always as generous as the request that I was making,17 in knowing that they would not be excited about a18 mid-budget request for a bunch of money for multiple19 voting locations, if the legislation were to pass and20 if the Board of Elections would have -- would have21 approved it, that having that same requirement for22 increasing poll worker pay as for requesting funding23 for early voting locations, if it was in the24 legislation, if it would have passed, would have been

Page 55

1 a reasonable thing to do.2 Q. And on the Franklin County Board of3 Elections -- first let me just make sure I -- let me4 clarify one thing. When you were saying that part of5 the proposal was to require a supermajority, you're6 talking about of the -- the -- the individuals on the7 Board of Elections itself; right? Not the county8 commissions; correct?9 A. So, as I recall, one of the ideas was

10 because of the issue in 2008 of the Secretary of11 State breaking ties as it related to hours and days12 for in-person absentee voting, that the conversation13 here was that there would be a supermajority, three14 votes of the four member bipartisan county Board of15 Elections whether to ask the commissioners for16 funding to establish it the year before.17 Q. Right. So in order to -- to pass a -- a18 regulation establishing multiple sites, the Board of19 Elections would have to do that by a supermajority20 vote -- majority vote, sorry, but that essentially21 would be a majority vote of the -- it could only be22 done by a majority vote of the Board of Elections;23 correct?24 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.

Page 56

1 A. So -- so I think you're asking kind of2 the same question as before. So it was if -- if the3 proposal made it into the legislation, the4 legislation passed, and that it would then require5 three affirmative votes of the four-member bipartisan6 Board of Elections to submit it to the commissioners7 for the funding request the year before in order for8 the Board of Elections to do it.9 Q. Right. In other words, because if

10 there's -- the makeup is two/two, right, in terms of11 party split on the Board of Elections?12 A. Correct.13 Q. And so basically it would take the power14 to break a tie out of the Secretary of State's hands15 and put it with one party or the other in terms of16 how the decision would be made?17 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.18 A. So, yeah, there are -- there are19 certain -- there are a number of areas of -- of20 election law where the Secretary cannot break a vote,21 and so it requires three votes from the two Rs and22 two Ds on the county Board of Elections to do23 something.24 Q. And if -- and if they can't reach an



Exhibit F


Matthew Damschroder


15 (Pages 57 to 60)

Page 57

1 agreement, they're deadlocked, in those instances2 what happens?3 A. I think it depends on what the status4 quo is, but I think the status quo in those kind of5 instances would -- would be unchanged.6 Q. Uh-huh. Okay. Your Point 8 here is,7 "Clarify what information is mandatory on the8 application for absent voter's ballot." What -- what9 were you proposing?

10 A. So I -- I think this was also one of the11 items that was in the legislation that passed in '0812 that -- that Governor Strickland vetoed, but I can't13 remember that for sure. We had an issue in 2008. So14 for -- I'll use the phrase time immemorial. For a15 very long time, even before the advent of no-fault16 absentee voting, the identification envelope for an17 absent voter's ballot had a -- a line, a blank, as a18 part of all of the fields on the envelope where the19 voter would fill out the information, you know, name,20 address, signature, those kinds of things. There's a21 line for date of birth, and so Boards of Elections22 all across the state considered date of birth that23 was on the form a mandatory field in order for the24 absentee ballot to be opened and the ballot extracted

Page 58

1 and counted.2 In 2008, a law professor at Ohio State3 called then Director Stinziano, my Democratic4 counterpart at the Franklin County board and said5 hey, I'm filling out my absentee ballot application6 and -- or the envelope and it has the citation on it,7 and so, you know, because I'm a law professor I8 looked up the cite, and I'm reading it and it doesn't9 say date of birth is a required field, do I have to

10 fill in the date of birth, and I remember Director11 Stinziano said yes, you know, it's on the envelope,12 you have to fill it out.13 And she said well, I don't -- I don't14 see it in the statute.15 So we kind of got into this -- this16 interesting conversation, and it ended up coming up17 out -- and I think then Secretary Brunner, I think,18 issued an advisory or directive clarifying that even19 though it's a line on the envelope, state law doesn't20 actually require date of birth as -- as a field for21 determining, at that time, whether the ballot counts22 or not, and so it was -- it was one of the -- one of23 the issues that became a -- an item that -- that24 people wanted to say hey -- because I remember

Page 59

1 Senator Seitz was adamant in '08 in the legislation2 five fields, the same five fields to register as to3 request an absentee, as to cast an absentee, as to4 cast a provisional, name, address, date of birth --5 I'm going too fast, I'm sorry -- name, address, date6 of birth, identification, and signature, and so7 that's -- that's what that item was.8 Q. And so --9 A. That was a long way of answering your

10 question. I apologize.11 Q. No. I -- I appreciate it. I think --12 let me just make sure I have it right. You're saying13 that the proposal, then, would be to make date of14 birth mandatory?15 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.16 A. So I think the proposal was to clarify,17 because the line was there. The statute prescribed18 the form of the envelope. It had a line for date of19 birth, but the other section that says -- actually,20 kind of two sections that have different parts of21 what's required and what isn't. It didn't mention22 date of birth, and so it's a question do -- do we23 want to have it, do we not want to have it. The24 Senate and the House in '08 had said five fields, so

Page 60

1 we just needed clarification, are we doing -- are we2 doing date of birth or are we not doing date of3 birth, because if we're not doing date of birth, it4 should come off the form.5 Q. Okay. At that point in time, when you6 wrote the e-mail, did you actually -- were you7 actually making a proposal as to whether date of8 birth should be mandatory or not?9 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.

10 A. So my recollection is that I supported11 the concept of -- of the same five fields for12 registration as to request an absentee, as to cast an13 absentee, as to cast a provisional, but I think here14 I'm just saying this is something we need to decide15 one way or the other.16 Q. Okay. Prior to the recent changes17 with -- with SB 205 and SB 216, were ballots being18 rejected when they didn't have the date of birth on19 them?20 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.21 A. So my recollection is that after the22 clarification in '08, up until the -- the passage of23 Senate Bill 205 or 216, I don't remember which, which24 bill did what, that absentee -- or the date of birth



Exhibit F


Matthew Damschroder


16 (Pages 61 to 64)

Page 61

1 was not a required field on the identification2 envelope. It was clear in statute that it was a3 required field on the application.4 Q. And that's for the absentee ballot?5 A. Correct.6 Q. Okay.7 A. In person or by mail.8 Q. Okay. And the clarification you9 mentioned that Secretary Brunner issued, was that a

10 directive or some other type of --11 A. I don't remember for sure whether it12 what a directive or advisory. It may have also just13 been an e-mail to -- to Michael and myself,14 "Michael," Director Stinziano and myself.15 Q. Prior to her issuing whatever the form16 it took, the clarification, to your knowledge,17 were -- was the practice in Franklin County to reject18 absentee ballots that didn't include the date of19 birth information on them?20 A. Yes, it was.21 Q. Do you know whether that was the22 practice in other counties as well?23 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.24 A. I don't know for certain.

Page 62

1 Q. Do you have some sense of that?2 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.3 A. I wouldn't want to speculate, but I -- I4 think, you know, the fact that it was on the form5 would probably lead other boards to the same6 conclusion that it led us to for a long time, that it7 was a required field.8 Q. Was there other information, such as9 address, that you were also seeking clarification in

10 terms of whether that was mandatory? And we'll focus11 on the absentee ballots.12 A. Not that I recall.13 Q. Okay. And in your -- in your Point 914 you're basically talking about the -- the envelope15 for the -- the absent -- absentee ballot; correct?16 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.17 A. Yes. Point 9 is, "Clarify what18 information is mandatory on the absent19 voter's...identification envelope."20 Q. Okay. And then --21 A. Which is, of course -- going back, I --22 I -- and I apologize. Were we talking about, for the23 last set of questions, No. 8 or No. 9?24 Q. We were only talking about eight, but

Page 63

1 I -- I -- I think -- I think you actually were2 covering both.3 A. I -- I -- yeah. Thank you. I think I4 was -- so the -- the issue that I brought up for 20085 about the requirement for date of birth was specific6 to the identification envelope, the ballot itself,7 not the application.8 Q. Uh-huh.9 A. The issue with the application was there

10 was a controversy in 2008 about -- I think the Ohio11 Supreme Court adjudicated it. It was an issue of12 what was required on the absentee application itself.13 I think the McCain campaign, I think, sent out an14 application that had as a design feature kind of open15 bullets or open boxes for, you know, for each of the16 required elements, and the person next to the box17 would say, you know, name and then a blank, and18 Secretary Brunner, I think, issued an advisory or a19 directive or something saying because those are boxes20 they have to be checked in order to be valid. I21 think the Republican Party or somebody sued, and the22 court said no, that there's no such thing as a23 checked box in the statute, and so, you know, the24 issue -- the issue for No. 8 was clarifying are there

Page 64

1 checked boxes, are there not checked boxes.2 There's also a statement that's required3 to be in there that says, you know, I affirm I'm a4 qualified electorate of the State of Ohio. That has5 to be preprinted on the application. I think Don's6 probably saved a ton of campaigns by making sure that7 that line is on the applications. So I think the8 issue there was what -- and I think generally for a9 lot of these -- for a lot of these items, you know,

10 what were the matters of controversy in 2008 and how11 can we solve those controversies before the next12 federal election, whether it be '10 or '12 or even a13 municipal election, so we don't have these same kind14 of controversies again.15 Q. Okay. In your No. 10 you say, "Exclude16 from the precinct size calculation voters who have17 voted by absent-voter ballot in the last two18 gubernatorial elections." What are you referring to19 there?20 A. So in -- in Franklin County, after the21 advent of no-fault absentee application -- no-fault22 absentee voting, we saw our total absentee numbers go23 up to, you know, 30, 40, I think -- I think it was24 even 45 percent. I think it was either in the '08 or



Exhibit F


Matthew Damschroder


17 (Pages 65 to 68)

Page 65

1 2010 general election. Again, that's all absentee,2 in person and by mail --3 Q. Uh-huh.4 A. -- and so one of the issues there was,5 you know, we would have Election Day precincts, which6 is great, where, you know, you'd have 50 people show7 up the entire day or a hundred people show up8 because, you know, a third, half, more, had voted9 absentee ahead of time, and so there are certain

10 fixed costs related to opening a precinct on Election11 Day, and so to the extent that already boards are12 allowed -- Boards of Elections are allowed to exclude13 from the cap of registered voters in a precinct,14 anyone who has not responded to a confirmation card,15 in an inactive status. It could make sense for a16 Board of Elections to exclude also from that cap17 people who have demonstrated a -- a propensity to18 vote by absentee again, either in person or by mail,19 in at least two of the last essentially three or four20 federal elections, from a resource, financial cost21 savings for the county perspective.22 Q. When you said "precinct size" here, were23 you referring to the amount of equipment at the24 precinct?

Page 66

1 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.2 A. No. So I think it's -- the issue there,3 precinct size is -- and I think I was talking in my4 testimony previous, a statement about it, that5 there's a cap of -- and I can't remember whether it's6 1,200 or 1,400 now, registered voters in the7 precinct; so when I talk about size in that context,8 it's number of registered voters in state law. So9 state law imposes a cap and excludes current law, at

10 that time excluded from the cap, and I guess still11 does, excludes from the cap anyone who has not12 responded to a confirmation card mailing is in13 inactive status.14 Q. So really number of -- of voters per15 precinct is what you're referring to in terms of16 precinct size?17 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.18 A. Yes. So when I talk about precinct --19 when I talked about the precinct size in No. 10 in20 this e-mail from 2009, I guess it was, number of --21 number of voters.22 Q. Okay. And then in No. 11 you say,23 "Require that provisional ballots contain the same24 identification information as is required for voter

Page 67

1 registration and absent voter balloting in order to2 be validated." Is that -- are you proposing that3 date of birth and address information be included on4 provisional ballots?5 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.6 A. So -- so here I was talking about again7 that same legislation that was passed in '08 that8 Governor Strickland vetoed, I think it was in -- in9 at least Senate Bill 8 and maybe even in the House

10 version, of you having the same five fields that are11 required to register to vote, all be used for12 requesting and casting an absentee and for casting a13 provisional.14 Q. Prior to the time that you were writing15 the e-mail, had provisional ballots -- I take it16 provisional ballots had not required those same17 five -- five fields?18 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.19 Q. Is that correct?20 A. Yes. Going back to when -- when21 provisional voting started I think in 1990 or 1992,22 all of those same five fields were not required, I23 think date of birth being the -- the big one that24 was -- that was not there.

Page 68

1 Q. Okay. What about address information,2 had that been required?3 A. As I sit here right now, I don't4 remember for sure. I think that address was required5 on the -- on the provisional application.6 Q. But you're -- you're not sure one way or7 the other?8 A. I --9 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.

10 A. Yeah. Like I testified a moment ago, I11 don't remember for sure.12 Q. Okay. Let me hand you what will be13 marked as Damschroder 2.14 A. At your convenience, if we could take15 another break.16 Q. Oh, yeah, sure. Why don't -- I'll give17 it to the court reporter to mark, but why don't we go18 ahead and take a break before I start asking you19 about it.20 A. Great.21 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record at22 11:01.23 (EXHIBIT MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)24 (Recess taken.)



Exhibit F


Matthew Damschroder


18 (Pages 69 to 72)

Page 69

1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On the record at2 11:07.3 BY MR. SPIVA:4 Q. Mr. Damschroder, have you had a chance5 to look at what's been marked as Damschroder 2?6 A. I'm looking at it now.7 Q. Okay. Just tell me when you are ready8 for me to ask you a couple of questions.9 A. Okay.

10 Q. All right. This is an e-mail that is11 from you dated August 11th, 2010; is that correct?12 A. Yes.13 Q. And it's not clear from the e-mail,14 although I think, based on the name up top, this15 was -- who it was sent to. Was it sent to Erika16 Cybulskis? And I'm sure I owe her an apology for17 pronouncing her name.18 A. I -- I believe so.19 Q. Okay. Who is Erika Cybulskis?20 A. I think she was Senator Seitz' either21 administrative assistant or legislative aide or22 something in his office.23 Q. Okay. And it was sent -- you sent it on24 August 11th, 2010. I take it at that point you were

Page 70

1 the Deputy Director of the Franklin County Board of2 Elections --3 A. Yes.4 Q. -- correct?5 And I -- I notice this one is sent on a6 Wednesday, but it's still from your Hot Mail account.7 Do you know why you were sending an e-mail about the8 Board of Elections from your Hot Mail account?9 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.

10 A. Don't know specifically.11 Q. You say in here that -- the "subject"12 is, "In-Person Voting Hours for Franklin County," and13 then you say, "Doug Preisse asked me to provide the14 following information to you." Who is Doug Preisse?15 A. Preisse.16 Q. Preisse. Sorry.17 A. No. That's fine. He was the, at that18 time, the Chairman of the Franklin County Board of19 Elections and also Chairman of the Franklin County20 Republican Party.21 Q. Okay. And so do I gather correctly from22 what you said about your recollection of who Ms.23 Cybulskis worked for, Senator Seitz, that Mr. Preisse24 was asking you to provide this information to Mr.

Page 71

1 Seitz; is that correct?2 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.3 A. I don't remember for sure, but based on4 the -- the first line, that, "Doug Preisse asked me5 to provide the following information to you,"6 that's -- that's my belief.7 Q. Okay. And then you go on -- I'm not8 going to read the whole thing, but I -- I think you9 can read the next sentence, "Earlier today, the

10 Franklin County Board of Elections met in special11 session to determine in-person absentee voting hours12 for the 2010 general election." Then you say, "The13 bipartisan board voted unanimously as follows," and14 then you set forth several dates and times. Do you15 see that?16 A. Yes.17 Q. And below the dates and times you state,18 in the paragraph right below that, that, "It should19 be noted that this schedule is a significant20 departure from the position advocated by the Democrat21 board members on Monday of this week and that had we22 not reached a compromise that included some weekend23 and evening hours, we would have simply deadlocked,24 with the matter being thrown to the Secretary of

Page 72

1 State, who would then break the tie in favor of the2 Democrat Party position, as she did in 2008."3 I take it that -- do I gather correctly4 that the Democratic board members wanted greater5 evening and weekend hours than ultimately was -- was6 adopted?7 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.8 A. I don't -- I don't specifically recall9 what -- what they were advocating for prior to the

10 unanimous decision, whether it was extra evening11 hours or extra weekend. I -- I don't remember for12 sure.13 Q. Okay. And this doesn't refresh your14 recollection where it says, "...had we not reached a15 compromise that included some weekend and evening16 hours" -- "evening hours, we would have simply17 deadlocked"?18 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection. Asked and19 answered.20 A. Well, I -- it does include some weekend21 and some evening hours, and so I -- I -- I would22 infer from that statement that they had been23 suggesting more or that they had been pressed to24 suggest more.



Exhibit F


Matthew Damschroder


19 (Pages 73 to 76)

Page 73

1 Q. Okay. Is that -- is that your2 recollection actually of what happened?3 A. I don't actually remember for sure at4 all.5 Q. Okay. And do you recall whether that6 was, as a general matter, whether that was an issue7 of debate among the -- the board members, the extent8 to which there would be evening and weekend hours9 during the early voting period?

10 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.11 A. So I don't know that I would -- I would12 term it a debate. I know that Bill Anthony, as --13 well, at this point in time in -- at this point in14 time, in 2010, he was the Director of the Board of15 Elections, but even before, when he was a member of16 the board and Chairman for a while, you know, he and17 Doug would have conversations, because it was always18 our goal to reach a bipartisan compromise at the19 board level on the days and hours, and -- and so I --20 I -- and I do remember on several occasions Bill21 saying, you know, that he was being pressed, you22 know, either by -- he never said who specifically,23 but I remember him saying that he was being pressed24 to ask for even more than -- than he was interested

Page 74

1 in actually voting for, and so it was always our goal2 to -- to have a bipartisan decision locally and not3 have to have one side or the other win over the other4 with the Secretary of State. Sometimes we reached a5 compromise and then Bill would get pushed and have to6 come back and break the compromise and vote again.7 Q. Who -- who was pushing him?8 A. Like I said earlier, I don't know for9 sure, but he was just -- he would say from time to

10 time I'm getting a lot of pressure or I'm getting11 pushed to do more than even I think we need to do.12 Q. Who was the other Democratic board13 member at that time?14 A. So in -- at this time, in 2010, the15 other two Democrat board members were Zach Manifold16 and I don't remember for sure if in 2010 he was still17 on staff with the county Democrat Party. I can't18 remember for sure.19 Q. You do know it's the Democratic Party;20 right?21 A. I'm sorry. Yes. I'm sorry. Thank you.22 And -- and then Kim Marinello was also one of the23 Democratic board members and the -- and I think she24 was the treasurer of the party at the time.

Page 75

1 Q. And you mention in here that if you2 hadn't "reached a compromise that included some3 weekend and evening hours" -- that -- "we would have4 simply deadlocked, with the matter being thrown to5 the Secretary of State." What would have been the6 problem at that time with the matter having been7 thrown to the Secretary of State?8 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.9 A. So I don't know that there is a -- a

10 problem per se other than -- because that would be11 the statutory process for the tie vote to go to the12 Secretary of State. I think in -- in 2008 we had two13 different tie votes, including one during the --14 after absentee voting had actually started, where15 Bill, then on the board in '08, had advanced an16 addition -- an addition to the hours, and then we17 tied, and it went to the Secretary of State, and she18 broke the tie in favor of -- of Bill's proposal.19 Q. And what was Bill's proposal at that20 point?21 A. I don't remember for sure. I remember22 we had tied in 2008 at the beginning -- or before the23 absentee voting period began, and then when I think24 we tied again, Bill brought a proposal for, I think

Page 76

1 it was either the Thursday or Friday before Election2 Day, to --3 Q. I should clarify. Bill is --4 A. I'm sorry.5 Q. Well, it's fine for you. I just don't6 call him Bill because I don't know him well.7 A. Well, no, and there's too many Bills and8 too many Matts and -- so in speaking of 2008, Bill,9 in that context, is Bill Anthony, a member of the

10 Board of Elections.11 Q. Got it.12 A. We had -- we had tied before the early13 voting period started, and Secretary Brunner broke14 the tie in favor of the Democratic board members'15 position, and then after early voting had started, I16 think it was either the Thursday or Friday before the17 election, Bill Anthony brought another proposal to18 the board to expand the hours beyond what the19 Secretary had previously broken the tie on and beyond20 what we had advertised on television and in print,21 and -- and Secretary Brunner broke -- broke the tie22 in favor of Bill's proposal that -- that Friday23 evening, I think.24 Q. Was it your view that extended hours or



Exhibit F


Matthew Damschroder


20 (Pages 77 to 80)

Page 77

1 weekend hours -- sorry, not extended hours -- evening2 hours or weekend hours favored the Democratic Party?3 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.4 A. No.5 Q. And so why -- why do you say in this6 e-mail that -- that she would break the tie in favor7 of the -- of the Democratic Party?8 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.9 A. I was inferring, based on the past --

10 based on the history of tie votes in Franklin County,11 where I think in -- in every case except for one she12 had broken the tie in favor of the -- of the position13 of the Democratic board members.14 Q. Uh-huh. And why were the Republican15 board members against evening -- or additional16 evening and weekend hours?17 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.18 A. I don't know for sure other than, you19 know, this was a reasonable schedule and this is what20 we had funding for.21 Q. Uh-huh. Were you present for the22 discussions over this proposal before it was --23 before it was voted on?24 A. Not that I recall.

Page 78

1 Q. So the board -- the board -- you2 weren't -- you weren't there for the board's3 discussion of -- of the proposal?4 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.5 A. So I think as I -- as I testified6 earlier, this -- the board did adopt the days and7 hours at a public special meeting of the board, but8 it would not be -- it would not be atypical for Bill,9 as -- I think he was still Chairman of the Democratic

10 Party in 2010, I can't remember for sure, but it11 would not be unusual for Bill and Doug to kind of get12 together over lunch and kind of say hey, you know,13 let's -- what do we want to do for this election.14 Q. Uh-huh, uh-huh.15 A. Which, as an election official, you16 know, always created challenges from one election to17 the next when we would have, you know, a few more18 hours here, fewer hours there. You know, we don't19 change the Election Day hours from one election to20 the next. So, you know, having some continuity from21 election to election on the days and hours I think is22 a positive thing.23 Q. Outside of -- of this e-mail, do you24 recall anything about the discussions in this kind of

Page 79

1 August 2010 time period concerning whether to adopt2 extended hours for early voting?3 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.4 A. Not that I recall.5 Q. Let me -- let me give you what will be6 marked as Damschroder 3.7 (EXHIBIT MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)8 Q. Damschroder 3, while you're looking at9 it, I just want to state for the record that it was

10 produced to us by the Secretary of State's Office,11 has Bates numbers -- well, there's -- the first page12 is SEC004963, and then there's what appears to be an13 attached document that's -- that is sequentially14 Bates numbered 4964 through 4968. My first question15 would be just do you recognize the document?16 A. I don't know that I recognize the -- the17 first page.18 Q. Uh-huh.19 A. But the second page of the -- the20 exhibit, which is labeled Page 1, I think is a copy21 of -- and I don't know whether it's one of the22 initial 1,000 signature petitions or whether it's one23 of the other petitions that were filed as a24 referendum against Senate Bill 194.

Page 80

1 Q. And can you describe for the record what2 Senate Bill 194 is?3 A. Senate Bill 194 was legislation that was4 introduced in 2011, I believe. It looks like it was5 passed that -- that spring and summer, that had a6 whole bunch of changes to -- to Title XXXV and7 other -- Title XXXV being the -- primarily the8 section --9 Q. Uh-huh.

10 A. -- that deals with election law in11 Ohio -- and other sections of state law.12 Q. Uh-huh. And you said -- did you say13 that it was -- it was a referendum against SB 194?14 A. So a referendum would -- would repeal a15 piece of legislation, so a referendum seeking to16 propose a ballot issue to the voters of the state on17 whether or not the bill, as passed by the General18 Assembly, should become law or not.19 Q. Uh-huh. Okay.20 A. So referendum of, referendum against.21 Q. Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh.22 A. The proposed function would be to -- to23 not have the legislation adopted by the General24 Assembly become law.



Exhibit F


Matthew Damschroder


21 (Pages 81 to 84)

Page 81

1 Q. Uh-huh, uh-huh. And did -- did SB 1942 become law?3 A. It did not.4 Q. And do you know why?5 A. My recollection is that the General6 Assembly repealed House Bill 194 at some point after7 the petition process began. I don't remember if it8 was after the petitions were filed or -- or what --9 when in the time line it was, but the General

10 Assembly repealed it.11 Q. Was there some concern that you were12 aware of that the petition process would be13 successful and that 194 would be repealed through14 referendum -- referenda?15 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.16 A. I don't -- I don't remember for sure.17 Q. No recollection at all?18 A. I -- I don't remember for sure why the19 General Assembly repealed it.20 Q. And -- and I -- I'm not trying to badger21 you, but I just --22 A. That's all right.23 Q. -- whenever I hear "for sure," I have to24 ask you --

Page 82

1 A. No. Sure.2 Q. -- do you have some recollection --3 A. Fair enough. So I think -- so I think4 the -- I think there were concerns among -- among5 some folks that there were aspects of 194 that were6 not issues of controversy, even between, I think,7 some of the petitioners, and my recollection is that8 there was even a conversation of -- that I had heard9 from other people that there was a conversation among

10 the petitioners, you know, could they repeal just11 parts of -- of the bill, and so I think the -- the12 issue that -- that some people had with -- with the13 proposed referendum effort was whether or not, after14 the -- if the referendum was successful, would that15 preclude the General Assembly from even coming back16 and doing some of the things that everybody agreed17 were -- were positive things.18 Q. Uh-huh, uh-huh. And when you refer to19 "some folks," can you --20 A. Sure.21 Q. -- give us who those were?22 A. I think --23 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.24 A. So I don't -- I don't remember

Page 83

1 specifically, but I think, you know, that would be2 legislators and -- and folks like that.3 Q. Uh-huh. Okay. Were these Republican4 legislatures -- legislators who had a concern that --5 that the referendum repealed 194?6 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.7 A. I think, yeah, probably.8 Q. Uh-huh. Let me -- I know you said that9 you didn't specifically recognize the -- the first

10 page of the Exhibit 4963. That's the number on the11 bottom right-hand corner. Let me just see if this --12 if you have any awareness of -- of what the document13 is talking about. At the top it says, "Item Senate14 Would Like to Address Prior to 2012," and then if you15 look down under, "Bill No. 1, Early Voting," it has,16 "Eliminate Golden Week (22 Days), Five Fields on17 Absentee Ballots, Observer Language, End Voting18 Saturday Before Election Day, Provisional Voting - 419 Reasons to Cast a Provisional, Uniform Application20 for Absentee Application Postage." Do you have21 any -- does that refresh your recollection at all as22 to what, you know, what -- what the issues are that23 this -- this document is addressing?24 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.

Page 84

1 A. So, again, I can't -- I don't -- I don't2 remember ever seeing this document, but those --3 those concepts that are listed there are -- are4 concepts that, you know, I think as we -- as I5 testified earlier, some, you know, went back to a6 legislation that was -- that was passed in '08 and --7 and vetoed. I think some or all of them were items8 that were in -- in 194 --9 Q. Uh-huh.

10 A. -- again, similar to some of the things11 that I testified earlier about specific -- addressing12 specific controversies from 2008. This refreshes my13 memory on the observer language, that state law, when14 it talks about allowing observers in polling places,15 it speaks generally about Election Day in-precinct16 observers and observers during the canvass, and there17 was a question in '08 about whether that extended to18 observers during the in-person absentee period, and19 there was litigation over that, and so I think -- so20 these were kind of topics. Some of these -- the21 observers specifically is the one I remember in that22 context, of clarifying the statute, to either put23 into the statute things that the courts had ruled or24 to clarify items that were -- that were still kind of



Exhibit F


Matthew Damschroder


22 (Pages 85 to 88)

Page 85

1 controversies.2 Q. Okay. And were those things that you3 were aware of that the Senate wanted to address prior4 to 2012?5 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.6 A. I don't have a specific recollection7 of -- of who and by time frame. I mean, that's --8 that's what the -- the title across this particular9 exhibit is.

10 Q. Okay. And do you know whether -- I take11 it -- if you could first just turn to the -- if you12 turn to the next page briefly, the -- I notice the13 referendum is issued -- or was issued July 15th,14 2011. Is that consistent with your recollection of15 the time frame?16 A. I'm sorry, can you restate that?17 Q. Is that consistent with your18 recollection of the time frame in which the19 referendum was -- was issued?20 A. So I -- I think -- if you can point to21 me where on -- you're talking about a specific date.22 My recollection is that the petition --23 Q. Right at the top there. It's in24 handwriting actually.

Page 86

1 A. Oh, okay. So my -- my guess is that the2 "Date Issued: July 15, 2011" here is the date that3 this particular circulator received this particular4 part petition.5 Q. Uh-huh, uh-huh.6 A. I don't remember for certain when the7 entire referendum petition documents were filed with8 the Secretary of State's Office.9 Q. Okay. Stepping away from the

10 document -- I mean, you're welcome to look at the11 document if it -- if it helps refresh your12 recollection. Was there -- to your knowledge, was13 there -- were there items that the Senate wanted to14 address prior to the 2012 presidential election?15 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.16 A. So I think, consistent with my earlier17 testimony, that -- not that I have a specific18 recollection of. I mean, I think this -- the first19 page of the document says that, so I would imagine,20 if that is the case, that the Senate or someone in21 the Senate wanted to address these or some of these22 items prior to 2012, based on this, how the document23 is titled.24 Q. Uh-huh. And were you aware of any

Page 87

1 discussions or were you involved in any discussions2 at that point with individuals in the Senate or who3 worked for the Senate about these being priority4 items prior to the 2012 election?5 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.6 A. So I -- I don't have any, like I said,7 specific recollection of that related to the time8 frames.9 Q. Do you have a general recollection?

10 A. I mean, I -- I'm -- I'm -- I'm sure that11 if -- if the Senate was drafting something, they --12 you know, we had conversations about different --13 different -- those different things, but I don't -- I14 don't have a specific recollection of having a15 conversation about specific items and specific time16 frames.17 Q. Uh-huh. Were you aware of whether there18 were Senators who wanted to implement the changes19 that are discussed in this document, eliminating20 Golden Week, five fields on the absentee ballots, et21 cetera, in order to gain advantage in the 201222 general election?23 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.24 A. As I understand your question, no, I'm

Page 88

1 not aware of anyone wanting to enact any legislation2 for the purpose of, you know -- I can't remember3 what -- what words you used, but gaining an advantage4 in the election.5 Q. Okay. Were you ever privy to any6 conversations among Republican Senators that it would7 be advantageous to eliminate Golden Week prior to the8 2012 general election?9 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.

10 A. Well, I think -- I think the history is11 that at least some legislators wanted to eliminate12 Golden Week as -- as early as -- as '09 and -- and13 '10, but I don't think it was -- and I can't remember14 how -- how you characterized the question, but I15 don't think, if I understand it as being similar to16 your previous question, I don't think it was for the17 purpose of -- of gaining an advantage in the18 election.19 Q. Yeah. And my question actually is -- is20 a little bit different --21 A. Okay.22 Q. -- which is, did you ever -- did you23 ever hear any Republican Senators state that they24 wanted to eliminate Golden Week because they thought



Exhibit F


Matthew Damschroder


23 (Pages 89 to 92)

Page 89

1 that that would give the Republican Party an2 advantage in the 2012 general election?3 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection. Asked and4 answered.5 A. I think consistent with my earlier6 testimony, no.7 Q. Did you ever -- were you ever privy to8 any conversations with any Republicans, whether they9 were in the Senate or not, that they wanted to

10 eliminate Golden Week prior to the 2012 general11 election because they -- they thought it would be12 advantageous to the Republican Party?13 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection. Vague.14 A. No.15 Q. Let me hand you what will be marked as16 Damschroder 4.17 (EXHIBIT MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)18 Q. And while you're taking a look at it,19 I'll just note for the record that the document,20 Damschroder 4, that I've handed you has Bates Nos.21 SEC003599 through -- through 3600.22 A. Okay.23 Q. All right. So, Mr. Damschroder, there24 are three e-mails here, and the -- I believe the

Page 90

1 first one in time is on the second page, which is2 from Valerie Bunting to a number of people, and3 you're cc'ed on the e-mail. Do you see that?4 A. I do.5 Q. Okay. And it's dated July 13th, 2012.6 So at that point in time you would have been in the7 Secretary of State's Office?8 A. Correct.9 Q. Okay. And -- and at that time Secretary

10 Husted was, by that time, was the Secretary of State;11 correct?12 A. Correct.13 Q. And it says -- the "subject" is,14 "Cuyahoga County - Tie Vote Regarding In-Person15 Absentee Voting Hours," and it says, "Please see the16 attached tie vote letter from Secretary Husted." I17 don't actually have the attachment here with me, and18 I don't know whether that's because it wasn't19 produced or whether we just -- we failed to attach20 it, but my question is -- is whether you have any21 recollection of what -- what this entailed.22 A. So my recollection is that in 2012, the23 Cuyahoga County Board of Elections tied on days and24 hours for in-person absentee voting, and the

Page 91

1 Secretary broke that tie.2 Q. Uh-huh. And -- and he broke that tie in3 favor of the Republican board members in Cuyahoga4 County?5 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.6 Q. Is that correct?7 A. I don't remember what -- what the8 content of the tie vote decision was.9 Q. Did he -- what was the end result if

10 the -- the hours were not extended in the way that11 the -- that had been proposed?12 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.13 A. So, again, I don't know specifically14 what -- what the tie vote -- what the -- what the15 different proposals were, but the Secretary, at the16 statewide conference of elections officials, I think17 it was in June of 2012, the Secretary informed all18 the county Boards of Elections that it was his19 preference that all counties work together in a20 bipartisan manner at the local level to establish21 their in-person absentee voting days and hours, in a22 bipartisan manner, and that he would not be23 entertaining tie votes, but that if they could not24 reach agreement, he would break the tie in favor of

Page 92

1 their normal business hours, whatever they were.2 Q. So he, at that speech -- you said it was3 in June of 2012?4 A. Yes. I think it was actually in5 response to a question. I don't think it was a --6 prepared remarks.7 Q. Okay. But at that point in time he was8 saying that he wanted each county Board of Elections9 to -- the board to work together to establish the

10 hours for that particular county?11 A. Correct. So at that point in time there12 was not legislation or a settlement agreement like13 there is now on -- that governs uniform days and14 hours. I think that's always been the Secretary's15 preference, but at that time in 2012, he communicated16 to all the boards I want you to figure this out17 locally and that if you don't figure it out, I'm not18 going to pick, you know, one slightly more over19 something else slightly more, I'm just going to go to20 your normal business hours, whatever has been21 proposed.22 Q. And I take it, though, the normal23 business hours would have -- that would have been the24 position of the -- of the Republican Party in the



Exhibit F


Matthew Damschroder


24 (Pages 93 to 96)

Page 93

1 state at -- at that time --2 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.3 Q. -- is that fair?4 A. I don't think that's necessarily true.5 It might have been in some instances of some6 individual board members.7 Q. Uh-huh. Isn't it -- isn't it true that8 in Cuyahoga County, that the Democratic board members9 wanted extended hours and the Republican board

10 members wanted normal business hours?11 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.12 A. So I think like I testified earlier, I13 don't remember specifically in this case what -- what14 was being proposed by the -- by the board members15 from each of the respective parties.16 Q. In -- if you turn to the first page, the17 next e-mail is from Inajo Davis Chappell dated July18 13th, 2012. It's to a number of -- it appears to be19 a number of Cuyahoga County board members and -- and20 staff members, and then it's cc'ed to a number of21 people, including yourself. Do you see that?22 A. I do.23 Q. Okay. And in the e-mail -- by the way,24 Ms. Chappell, I take it she was and is one of the

Page 94

1 Democratic board members in Cuyahoga County?2 A. She is.3 Q. Okay. And -- and she's also the only4 African-American board member in Cuyahoga County?5 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.6 A. I believe that's correct, yes.7 Q. And she has some discussion in her first8 paragraph about the tie vote procedure. Do you see9 that?

10 A. I do.11 Q. And then her second paragraph says,12 "Perhaps it was optimism (if not idealism) that my13 competing viewpoint would be heard and considered14 fairly before a decision of the issue would be made.15 While, frankly, this is the decision I expected, it16 doesn't seem appropriate to call this a tie-vote17 decision (since no opportunity was provided to the18 board Democrats to provide a position statement to19 share our view) and the statutory procedure was not20 followed. Since this is a directive, why not stylize21 and issue it as such?"22 Do you recall her -- her saying that23 in -- in the e-mail that she sent to you and others?24 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.

Page 95

1 A. So I don't -- I don't recall it absent2 being -- reading it here.3 Q. Uh-huh. Okay. But you don't have any4 reason to -- to doubt that -- that you received it at5 that time?6 A. Correct, yes.7 Q. And do you have any recollection of8 whether the Secretary heard from the Cuyahoga County9 Board Democrats before breaking the tie concerning

10 in-person absentee voting hours?11 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.12 A. So I don't -- I don't remember13 specifically that we heard from -- from anyone on --14 on this particular tie vote other than to say that we15 had -- we had communicated to all the counties at16 the -- at the summer conference that, you know, if --17 if there were tie votes, we were going to be breaking18 in favor of -- of regular business hours and that the19 Secretary's desire was that counties work together20 locally among the bipartisan board members to pick21 their days and hours, and if they couldn't, then --22 and a tie was sent to him, that he would break it in23 favor of regular business hours, and so that's what24 he did.

Page 96

1 Q. Uh-huh. And in this instance in2 Cuyahoga County, the breaking in favor of regular3 business hours meant breaking it in favor of the --4 the two Republican board members; isn't that right?5 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.6 A. I think like -- like I testified7 earlier, I don't know -- I don't recall what the8 actual two different proposals were, and it's -- it's9 possible -- I have a recollection that at least in

10 one county the Secretary -- there were different11 proposals, and the Secretary broke it in favor of --12 of regular business hours, but that wasn't either of13 the proposals. So the Secretary laid down a marker14 for all the counties in June of 2012 and -- and acted15 consistent with that marker.16 Q. Do you recall the Secretary ever17 breaking -- first of all, were there other tie votes18 in other counties concerning in-person absentee19 voting hours in 2012?20 A. I believe that there were.21 Q. And do you recall, sitting here today,22 of the Secretary ever breaking a tie in favor of the23 Democratic board members?24 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.



Exhibit F


Matthew Damschroder


25 (Pages 97 to 100)

Page 97

1 A. I don't remember specifically any of the2 specific proposals from either party's3 representatives on any of the boards that tied, but I4 do know that the Secretary acted consistently with5 the statement he had made in June of that year, that6 he would break the ties in favor of the regular7 business hours.8 Q. Right, and my question is a little9 different. I'm not asking for you to remember the

10 specific different proposals. I'm just asking if you11 recall him ever breaking a tie in favor of the12 Democratic board members with regard to a proposal13 for early -- I'm sorry, in-person absentee voting14 hours?15 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection. Asked and16 answered.17 A. And I think consistent with my earlier18 testimony, I'm not aware of any of the specific19 proposals, but I think he always broke it in favor of20 the regular business hours.21 Q. Okay. Yeah, I -- I understand that.22 And I -- but I'm not asking you about the specific23 proposals right now.24 A. Okay.

Page 98

1 Q. I may and I have at certain points, but2 right now I'm actually -- my question is different,3 which is do you recall the Secretary ever breaking a4 tie in connection with early voting hours in favor of5 the Democratic board members in a -- in a given6 county?7 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection. It's been8 asked and answered several times, and he's described9 the process and his position.

10 A. Can you ask the question again? I'm11 sorry.12 Q. Sure.13 Can you read it back, please?14 THE WITNESS: That would be great.15 (Question read back.)16 MS. RICHARDSON: Same objection.17 A. And I don't -- I don't -- I don't18 remember specifically.19 Q. In the last paragraph of Ms. Chappell's20 e-mail she says, "On a final note, I would be remiss21 if I did not express my deep concern about the22 disparate impact that this ruling will have on23 thousands of African-American and other voters in24 Cuyahoga County, who have chosen and have

Page 99

1 historically come to rely on extended hours for2 in-house, in-person voting. I observed many of the3 persons who voted in-house, in-person during the 20084 presidential election. They were primarily people of5 color, and they will be significantly affected by the6 decision to eliminate extended in-person voting7 hours."8 Do you recall Ms. Chappell expressing9 that concern in July of 2012?

10 A. Apart from reading it, you know, here11 again today, I don't have a specific recollection of12 it, but reading it here, she did say that, yes.13 Q. Okay. There's another e-mail at the top14 from Halle Pelger. I believe Miss Pelger, I guess,15 had -- had your current job before you did? She was16 the Chief of Staff?17 A. In '13 and '14 she was the Chief of18 Staff, yes.19 Q. Okay. And she sends an e-mail dated20 July 13th, 2012, to Kate Huffman. Who is Kate21 Huffman?22 A. In 2012 Kate was kind of our manager of23 our regional liaisons.24 Q. And she says, Miss Pelger says,

Page 100

1 forwarding the e-mail that we were just talking2 about, "In case Marilyn hears something." First of3 all, do you know who Marilyn is?4 A. I think that would be Marilyn Jacobcik,5 who was the Secretary's regional liaison in kind of6 the north central, northeast Ohio.7 Q. And meaning Cuyahoga County?8 A. Yeah. Her region included -- she9 lived -- lives in Lorain, and her region included

10 Cuyahoga.11 Q. Uh-huh. Okay. All right. Let me --12 let me give you what will be marked as Damschroder 5.13 (EXHIBIT MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)14 Q. And I can -- well, why don't I first,15 for the record, this -- Damschroder 5 has got Bates16 Nos. SEC002408 through 2409, and I'm only going to17 have a couple of very brief questions for you on18 this, but obviously feel free to read as much as of19 it as you want to.20 A. I think I'm ready.21 Q. Okay. So on the second page there is --22 at the bottom of the second page there's an e-mail23 from Secretary Husted dated May 13th, 2012, to Halle24 Pelger, cc'ing you. Do you see that?



Exhibit F


Matthew Damschroder


26 (Pages 101 to 104)

Page 101

1 A. I do.2 Q. Okay. And the "subject" is, "When does3 early voting start in most states," and then in the4 body of the e-mail it just says, "If you could please5 send it to me at the earliest opportunity. Need it6 for media response." Do you have any recollection of7 what the Secretary was referring to in that e-mail?8 A. Other than, you know, what he says,9 "When does early voting start in most states," that

10 he wanted it as quickly as possible for media11 response, I don't -- beyond that, I don't remember.12 Q. Okay.13 A. I really don't know.14 Q. And you don't recall why he wanted to15 know the answer to that question?16 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.17 A. I -- I don't know for sure --18 Q. Okay.19 A. -- but I -- I would presume, based on20 his statement, that it was -- he had gotten a call21 from the media or something and wanted to have22 information.23 Q. Okay. And I assume the same answer24 with -- looking at the first e-mail from Ms. Pelger

Page 102

1 to Secretary Husted, cc'ing you and others, that2 appears to be collecting that information as of that3 time, I guess, when other states' early voting4 periods are --5 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.6 Q. -- correct?7 A. So it appears to be kind of a -- a8 detailed --9 Q. Uh-huh.

10 A. -- summary from information from the11 NCSL Website about how many states do different kind12 of things related to election -- or preelection13 voting.14 Q. But I take it that doesn't refresh your15 recollection as to why the Secretary was asking for16 that information?17 A. No.18 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.19 Q. Let me give you what will be marked as20 Damschroder 6.21 (EXHIBIT MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)22 MR. SPIVA: I have a faulty notebook23 here. It keeps coming apart on me. For the record,24 Damschroder 6 has Bates Nos. SEC005307 and 5308.

Page 103

1 BY MR. SPIVA:2 Q. Mr. Damschroder, it appears to be one3 e-mail from Matt McClellan to a number of4 individuals, including yourself, dated August 17th,5 2012. Do you recall receiving this e-mail?6 A. I don't specifically recall receiving7 the e-mail, but I see that I was -- I was one of the8 people who -- to whom the e-mail was sent.9 Q. Okay. And it appears to forward an

10 article regarding a -- regarding a number of things,11 but I guess the Secretary is proposing to fire two12 Democrats in Dayton -- I'm reading now from the13 third -- the fourth paragraph -- "because they voted14 to open up the voting booths on the weekend." This15 is a quote or purports to be a quote from the then16 Chairman of the Ohio Democratic Party. Do you see17 that?18 A. Yes.19 Q. And it goes on to say, "Nearly 29,00020 voters in Dayton and Montgomery County voted during21 extended hours in 2008, and that's one reason Barack22 Obama is president today and running for reelection."23 Do you see that?24 A. I do.

Page 104

1 Q. Okay. And do you recall receiving this2 article at the time?3 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection, and I'm4 going to have an objection only to the5 characterization of this as an article. According to6 the record, it seems to be a statement from the7 Democratic Chairman, not an article.8 You can answer.9 A. Like I said earlier, I don't -- I don't

10 specifically recall this e-mail or this particular11 article, op-ed, blog post, whatever it is. I don't12 specifically remember it, but I -- I remember the13 circumstances at the time.14 Q. What do you remember about the15 circumstances?16 A. So after -- in -- so there were number17 of tie votes, like we talked about earlier, where the18 Secretary broke the tie in -- in favor of -- I'm19 sorry. I'm getting hungry, so I'm -- I'm -- I'm20 breaking up here. So the Secretary broke the tie in21 favor of regular business hours on a number of22 occasions, and then some counties came to bipartisan23 decisions to have extra hours, regular business24 hours, and it was starting to kind of be a patchwork



Exhibit F


Matthew Damschroder


27 (Pages 105 to 108)

Page 105

1 around the state of all kinds of different hours.2 Q. Uh-huh.3 A. And so my recollection is that at this4 point, the Secretary issued a directive for uniform5 days and hours for the whole state, and in Montgomery6 County the two Democrat board members, at a meeting,7 made a motion to treat the instructions of the8 Secretary of State in the directive as a floor and9 voted to do additional hours.

10 We communicated to the board members at11 that time that no, this isn't a -- a -- this isn't a12 minimum. This is -- these are the days and hours13 uniform for the entire state and instructed them to14 come back at another meeting and -- and rescind15 their -- their previous motion and follow the -- the16 directions of the Secretary of State, and the board17 members declined to do so, and so the Secretary --18 because the -- the board members there in Dayton, in19 Montgomery County had declined to follow the20 instructions of the Secretary of State, the Secretary21 sent them a notice that they needed to appear before22 a Hearing Officer to talk about it, with the intent23 of -- of removing them for failure to follow the24 instructions of the Secretary of State.

Page 106

1 Q. And what was the outcome of that?2 A. They -- the Secretary removed them from3 the board. They filed a -- a lawsuit and -- that was4 about their removal, and the -- the Federal Court in5 that instance found that the -- I don't remember6 the -- the legal term, but I'll use the phrase that7 Secretary abused his discretion --8 Q. Uh-huh, uh-huh.9 A. -- in -- in his removal of those two

10 board members for violating the instructions of the11 Secretary of State on the directive.12 Q. I notice that this also -- it was sent13 from what appears to be a personal e-mail account and14 that almost all of the individuals who it was sent to15 also appear to be using their personal e-mail16 account. Do you know why that is?17 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.18 A. I don't -- I don't know why Matt chose19 to do that.20 Q. But Mr. McClellan is employed by the21 Secretary of State's Office?22 A. He is.23 Q. Okay. And -- and is Mr. Borgemenke --24 at that time was he also an employee of the Secretary

Page 107

1 of State's Office?2 A. He was.3 Q. And I know Miss Pelger was as well;4 correct?5 A. Yes.6 Q. Were all the people on this e-mail7 employed by the Secretary of State's Office?8 A. Yes.9 Q. So this was official business of the

10 Secretary of State's Office?11 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.12 A. It was definitely information about an13 official act of the Secretary of State's Office, yes.14 Q. The last paragraph of the e-mail says,15 "Meanwhile, a group of Ohio Black leaders have asked16 to meet with Husted on his decision to end weekend17 voting hours. In Florida a court threw out plans18 to" -- I won't read the rest of that because it's19 about Florida, but I wanted to ask you about the20 sentence about the Ohio Black leaders. Are you aware21 of whether that meeting took place?22 A. I don't know whether this specific23 meeting that's referenced in this, whatever it is,24 took place, but the Secretary did, on at least one

Page 108

1 occasion that I was -- I'm aware of, I was not in the2 meeting, did meet with -- with a group of3 African-American leaders.4 Q. Uh-huh. And when was that,5 approximately?6 A. I don't remember, but it was in -- in7 late summer, early fall of 2012, but I don't remember8 a specific date.9 Q. And -- and was the subject of that

10 meeting early voting?11 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.12 A. Like I said, I wasn't in the meeting,13 but I believe that that was a -- a topic of14 conversation.15 Q. Uh-huh. So this is -- this is probably16 an obvious question given what we've been discussing,17 but I take it these two Democratic members of the18 Montgomery County Board of Elections did not --19 supported extending early voting hours in -- in20 Montgomery County?21 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.22 A. So I think consistent with my previous23 testimony, they voted to go beyond the hours24 established, the uniform hours established by the



Exhibit F


Matthew Damschroder


28 (Pages 109 to 112)

Page 109

1 directive --2 Q. Uh-huh.3 A. -- and that's why they -- they were4 removed for -- for violating the instructions of the5 Secretary of State.6 Q. Okay. But before the directive came7 out, I take it that they also, like Cuyahoga County,8 had -- had -- had a stalemate over extending early9 voting hours?

10 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.11 A. Excuse me. Actually, my recollection is12 that the Montgomery County board had come to a13 bipartisan agreement before the directive for uniform14 hours had been issued.15 Q. I see. And so the -- the directive for16 uniform hours was overruling what the -- would have17 had the effect of overruling what the board,18 Montgomery County board had -- had decided?19 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.20 A. It had the effect of establishing21 uniform hours for the entire state, and so any county22 that had -- where the Secretary had either broken a23 tie in favor of fewer or more hours than the uniform24 directive or where a county had made a decision for

Page 110

1 fewer or more hours than the directive, that2 directive superceded any local decision that had been3 made up to that time.4 Q. In Montgomery County, I take it that5 they had -- and actually, if you want to break for6 lunch, we can. Let me just ask this question and7 then if -- in Montgomery County, I take it, though,8 that the -- the board had come to a decision for more9 hours than what the directive provided for?

10 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.11 A. I don't remember specifically, but I12 think that's probably the case.13 Q. Okay. And you can never trust a lawyer14 who says he only has one more question, but this is15 all right in the same line --16 A. Sure.17 Q. -- so if we can just --18 A. Whatever you -- whatever you need to.19 Q. Was the same thing true in Franklin20 County, that the -- that the -- the board had come to21 a decision to have more hours, early voting hours22 than the Secretary's directive ultimately permitted?23 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.24 A. And as it relates to 2012, I don't

Page 111

1 specifically remember whether, at that point in time,2 Franklin County had made a decision on days and hours3 yet or if the Secretary had broken a tie one way or4 the other. I don't remember.5 Q. Okay. What about Hamilton, Hamilton6 County, had they made a decision to have extended7 hours beyond what the Secretary's directive8 ultimately permitted?9 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.

10 A. I don't remember for sure whether they11 had or not. The same thing as Franklin.12 Q. Do you recall whether they had a13 deadlock over whether to extend hours?14 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.15 A. Like I said, I don't remember for sure.16 Q. Same question with respect to Summit17 County, do you have any recollection there?18 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.19 A. My recollection is that Summit County20 did tie.21 Q. Uh-huh. And which way did the22 Democratic members vote in Summit County?23 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.24 A. So I think similar to my testimony on

Page 112

1 Cuyahoga, I don't remember what -- what each party's2 representatives had proposed, but consistent with the3 Secretary's decision in -- in the announcement in4 June, he broke the tie, all of those ties. I think5 were two or three. I can't remember specifically6 what county, Cuyahoga for sure, I think Summit. He7 broke all of those in favor of the board's normal8 business hours.9 Q. And did all of those ties that the

10 Secretary had to break break down along party lines?11 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.12 A. On what -- I -- I think in all those13 counties the Democrats were on the same side of their14 proposal, and the Republicans were on the same side15 of their proposal.16 Q. And in each of those instances, did the17 Secretary break the tie in favor of the proposal that18 the Republican board members had --19 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.20 Q. -- decided?21 MS. RICHARDSON: I'm sorry. Objection.22 A. So I think consistent with my earlier23 testimony, I don't remember for sure. My -- my -- my24 vague reference and part of the reason why I'm -- why



Exhibit F


Matthew Damschroder


29 (Pages 113 to 116)

Page 113

1 I'm not being entire direct is my recollection is2 that at least in one instance the Secretary didn't3 choose either side and went with the normal business4 hours of the board; so because I can't remember5 specifically each of the different ties and who was6 on what side of what, that's -- that's why I'm saying7 I don't remember specifically what the proposals were8 or where -- except for the Secretary always broke the9 tie, up until he issued the directive, broke the tie

10 in favor of the board's normal business hours.11 Q. Do you recall whether in Lucas County12 there was a tie among board members?13 A. I don't remember if there was a tie on14 days and hours in Lucas County. In 2012 I remember15 they couldn't find a location to do their early16 voting, and we ended up doing a field trip to go up17 there and look at all three of the different18 possibilities that were being floated around.19 Q. Okay. All right.20 Well, why don't we break for lunch, if21 this is good for you. Thanks.22 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: One moment. Off the23 record at 12:08.24 (Lunch recess taken.)

Page 114

1 - - -2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On the record at3 12:53.4 BY MR. SPIVA:5 Q. All right. Good afternoon, Mr.6 Damschroder. Let me hand you what will be marked as7 Damschroder 7.8 (EXHIBIT MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)9 Q. And while you're taking a look at it,

10 I'll just identify it as having Bates No. SEC005297.11 And, Mr. Damschroder, because I deposed12 him yesterday, I can represent to you that the13 "from," the "[email protected]" is -- is Mr. Pat14 McDonald. This appears to be an e-mail from him to15 Secretary Husted and you, dated October 10th, 2012,16 "Subject: Cuyahoga County." Do you see that?17 A. I do.18 Q. And Mr. McDonald says, "3,748 people19 came in and voted today. This totals 9,050 for20 Golden Week, which is a 26 percent increase over 200821 (without having a weekend) so much for the voter22 suppression that the Democrats tout."23 Do you recall Mr. McDonald sending you24 an e-mail about a 26-percent increase in Golden Week

Page 115

1 turnout between 2012 and 2008?2 A. I don't -- I don't specifically recall3 this e-mail, but I see that he did send it to me.4 Q. Okay. Sent it to you and Secretary5 Husted?6 A. Yes.7 Q. Okay. So as of this point in October of8 2012, he made you aware that at least in Cuyahoga9 County there had been a significant increase in

10 turnout between 2008 and 2012 on Golden -- in Golden11 Week?12 A. That's what -- that's what the e-mail13 says, yes.14 Q. Okay. And it says, "Also, we received15 10,798 voter registration cards today - it has been a16 record amount of voter registration cards over the17 last six week - much greater than 2008." Do you see18 that as well?19 A. I do.20 Q. Okay. And then you -- by the way, do21 you -- Mr. McDonald is the Director -- Executive22 Director of the Cuyahoga County Board of Elections;23 correct?24 A. He -- he is now, yes.

Page 116

1 Q. And was he in 2012?2 A. My recollection is that in 2012 he was3 the Deputy Director.4 Q. Okay. And that's -- that's probably5 right. You forward -- do you know why Mr. McDonald6 wrote to you and Secretary Husted from his personal7 e-mail to both Secretary Husted and your personal8 e-mails?9 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.

10 A. No.11 Q. And then you appear to forward this on12 to several other employees of the Secretary of13 State's Office; is that correct?14 A. Yes.15 Q. And you forward it from your personal16 e-mail to all -- all of them at their respective17 personal e-mails; correct?18 A. Yes.19 Q. Do you know why you were apprising them20 of the Cuyahoga County -- strike that. You were --21 you were providing them this information that -- that22 Mr. McDonald had provided you, that is the Cuyahoga23 County Golden Week turnout in 2012?24 A. Yeah, I was forwarding that information



Exhibit F


Matthew Damschroder


30 (Pages 117 to 120)

Page 117

1 along.2 Q. Okay. Let me give you what will be3 marked as Damschroder Exhibit 8.4 (EXHIBIT MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)5 Q. Okay. Just for the record, it has the6 Bates No. SEC006355 and 6356. This is an e-mail from7 Matthew McClellan to a number of people in the Ohio8 Secretary of State's Office, including yourself; is9 that correct, Mr. Damschroder?

10 A. Yes.11 Q. And it was sent January 23rd, 2013?12 A. That's correct.13 Q. Okay. And the title of what appears to14 be an article that Mr. McClellan is forwarding is,15 "Report: Ohio Secretary of State's Restrictive16 Voting Hours Hurt Urban Voters." Do you recall what17 publication this comes from?18 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.19 A. I don't have any recollection of where20 this came from at all.21 Q. Okay. Do you know who Aviva Shen is?22 A. I do not.23 Q. Do you recall receiving this information24 during this time period in 2013?

Page 118

1 A. I don't specifically recall receiving2 this, but I see that I did.3 Q. Okay. And you received it along with4 other employees of the Secretary of State's Office?5 A. Yes.6 Q. And this one is sent to those7 individuals' work e-mails, it appears?8 A. Yes.9 Q. Okay. Let me -- let me just ask you a

10 couple of more questions about this one. The second11 sentence of the article says, "Husted banned evening12 and weekend voting hours in all 88 Boards of13 Election, in spite of multiple counties' requests to14 stay open to accommodate people who could not leave15 their jobs to vote."16 Do you recall receiving complaints about17 Secretary Husted banning weekend and evening hours in18 all 88 Boards of Elections?19 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.20 A. So I remember that there were news21 reports that either cited objections or made22 objections to -- to that. My recollection is that23 there were, in 2012, some evening and weekend hours24 that ultimately were included in the general

Page 119

1 election, but that not everybody agreed with either2 the hours that were set or that they were uniform3 across the state.4 Q. Do you recall that Secretary Husted5 eliminated the final three days of early voting for6 all voters except for military voters, at least7 initially did that by directive?8 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.9 A. So I recall that the General Assembly

10 enacted a law. I think it was House Bill 224 or11 Senate Bill 224, I can't remember for sure, I may12 have the number wrong, but that -- and that might13 have been the bill that -- that repealed 194, but I14 can't remember for sure. But anyway, the General15 Assembly, by law, set the close of in-person absentee16 voters for non -- the General Assembly set the hours17 for non-UOCAVA absentee voting to end at six p.m. the18 Friday before the election, and because they did not19 also end the in-person absentee voting hours for20 UOCAVA voters, almost all UOCAVA voters, because of21 their situation being overseas or uniformed services,22 vote by mail, but because the law did not cut -- end23 in-person absentee voters for the UOCAVA voters,24 that's why the Secretary instructed boards that at

Page 120

1 six p m. on Friday was the end of non-UOCAVA2 in-person absentee voting, and ultimately, the3 federal courts overturned that, and -- and there was4 in-person absentee voting on that Saturday, Sunday,5 and Monday before the election.6 Q. Right. You're referring to the outcome7 of the OFA v Husted suit?8 A. I am. Thank you.9 Q. And -- but you're saying that the

10 Secretary had initially eliminated the final three11 days based on an understanding that that was what was12 required by state statute?13 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.14 A. So I think the Secretary -- the General15 Assembly passed a law that ended non-UOCAVA in-person16 absentee voting at six p.m. the Friday before the17 election in law, and that's what the Secretary18 instructed boards to do.19 Q. Okay. Do you see in the second20 paragraph of this article, it says, "A new report by21 the Northeast Ohio Voter Advocates" -- first of all,22 are you aware of that organization, Northeast Ohio23 Voter Advocates?24 A. Not specifically. There's a gentleman I



Exhibit F


Matthew Damschroder


31 (Pages 121 to 124)

Page 121

1 know from Cuyahoga County, Norm Robbins, I don't know2 if -- if he is with Northeast Ohio Voter Advocates or3 if this is a different organization.4 Q. Okay. It says, "A new report by the5 Northeast Ohio Voter Advocates found that these6 uniform voting hours created longer waits in urban7 counties. Residents of cities like Columbus8 experienced marathon lines on the last day of early9 voting. Even though more people turned out to vote

10 in smaller counties than did in urban counties, rural11 Ohioans experienced little to no wait to vote."12 Do you recall either reading about or13 hearing complaints such as this, about long lines in14 urban areas that weren't experienced in -- in rural15 areas --16 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.17 Q. -- in 2012?18 A. I don't think that I recall that in19 2012, but I think statements like these were made20 after the 2012 general election.21 Q. Uh-huh.22 A. I don't necessarily know that -- that23 this is factual.24 Q. Uh-huh, uh-huh. But do you recall

Page 122

1 hearing that that had -- had occurred, that there had2 been these long lines in 2012 in urban areas?3 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.4 A. So like I said -- or like I testified a5 moment ago, I don't think that we had specific6 information about long lines, urban versus rural7 versus suburban counties in two thousand -- in 2012,8 at the time of the election, but that there were9 these kind of reports afterwards.

10 Q. It goes on to say, in the second11 paragraph to the bottom, "The report calls for12 greater flexibility in voting hours based on each13 county's needs. Husted initially stepped in to break14 the partisan tie over expanding early voting hours in15 Ohio's largest counties, creating a discrepancy16 between limited hours in traditionally Democratic17 counties and expanded hours in their Republican18 counterparts. After public outcry, Husted issued his19 directive restricting hours in all counties. He was20 ultimately forced to open the last weekend before the21 election to early voters by a court order."22 Do you recall receiving complaints such23 as that at -- in this time frame about the 201224 election?

Page 123

1 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.2 A. So I think consistent with my earlier3 testimony, one of the -- I think the primary reason4 that the Secretary ended up issuing the directive for5 uniform statewide hours is that some counties -- some6 counties, through majority vote at the county level7 as opposed to having a tie that came to the8 Secretary, that there was becoming, and I think the9 phrased they used was a patchwork or something like

10 that, of -- of different voting hours in different11 counties, and there was some criticism, as I recall,12 at that time that it -- that at least in one county13 that was a Republican-leaning county, the board had14 voted to do expanded hours, and there was a lot of15 publicity around that alleging that the Secretary was16 breaking ties in the large counties, which he did,17 consistent with his decision, his announcement in18 June to break any ties on -- on days and hours19 consistent with normal business hours. He had20 followed through with that, and so there was some --21 there was some accusations that he was also breaking22 ties in Republican counties in violation of that,23 which was not true, and finally the Secretary said24 just, you know, enough, we're going to have uniform

Page 124

1 hours statewide, and I'm going to issue a directive2 and here's the hours.3 Q. You know, I should have asked you this4 earlier, because you've mentioned that he was going5 to break ties in favor -- in favor of normal business6 hours, how was that defined?7 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.8 A. At that point in time -- well, and now,9 too -- boards have their own different normal

10 business hours, and so it was -- it would have11 resulted in different hours in different counties,12 but it would be whatever that board was ordinarily13 open for regular business.14 Q. So -- so it wasn't really uniform, then,15 even after he issued that directive?16 A. That's correct.17 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.18 A. I'm sorry. You used the word19 "directive." I answered too quickly. So it was --20 it was -- so his position in June to say Boards of21 Elections should set their own in-person absentee22 voting hours at a local level with bipartisan23 agreement and that if they didn't, he would break24 that -- any ties in favor of that county's regular



Exhibit F


Matthew Damschroder


32 (Pages 125 to 128)

Page 125

1 business hours. That was an announcement he made at2 the summer conference. That wasn't a directive he3 issued. Then later on he did issue a formal4 directive to the counties saying -- setting uniform5 hours and days statewide.6 Q. Do you know whether that, the uniform7 hours that he set statewide were based on any studies8 of the particular needs of -- of the individual9 counties?

10 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.11 Q. Are you aware of any such studies?12 A. I'm -- I'm not.13 Q. Uh-huh. Okay. Let me ask you just14 about the last paragraph or sentence. It says, "When15 the directive was implemented, one Republican16 official in Columbus freely admitted that the17 restricted voting schedule would hinder 'urban - read18 African-American' voters."19 Were you familiar with such a statement20 by -- by a Republican official in Columbus?21 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.22 A. So I think the quote there, the quote23 "urban - read African-American" comes from a24 statement that Doug Preisse made I think to the

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1 Columbus Dispatch, I can't remember for sure, and I2 was asked about that last week; so, yes, I'm -- I'm3 aware that Doug made that statement.4 Q. Okay. I'm going to give you what has5 been -- what will be marked as Exhibit 9, Damschroder6 9.7 (EXHIBIT MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)8 Q. This is Bates No. SEC005334, and this9 appears to be a series of e-mails. There are some

10 attachments that I don't -- I don't have here with11 me. I don't know if I have them, but the bottom12 e-mail is from Mr. Kevin DeWine. First of all, who13 is Mr. Kevin DeWine?14 A. He's a former State Representative and15 former Chairman of the Ohio Republican Party.16 Q. Uh-huh. And did he hold either of those17 roles in -- in 2014?18 A. I don't believe so in '14.19 Q. Uh-huh. And it's to Halle Pelger, who I20 know you testified earlier is -- was in the Secretary21 of State's Office, and it's dated February 13th,22 2014, and Mr. DeWine says, "Do you know how many23 people actually register and vote during Golden Week?24 Seems that would be an important figure to know." Do

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1 you have any -- and this e-mail is later forwarded on2 to you and other people. Do you have any3 recollection of why he was saying it would be4 important to know how many people actually register5 and vote during Golden Week?6 A. I don't.7 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.8 Q. And you see that Ms. Pelger then9 forwards on that e-mail to Mr. Masterson and -- and

10 yourself and says, "I never remember if this is one11 we know or one we don't." That's an e-mail that she12 sent to you and Mr. Masterson on February 13th, 2014?13 A. Yes. She even says, "I never remember14 if this is one" -- that -- "we know or one we don't."15 Q. Uh-huh. And then you -- and then you16 reply and attach "the reports Forbes gave to17 Stinziano (and I think LSC) last summer/fall when18 they asked for the same data." First of all, who's19 Forbes?20 A. Forbes would be Craig Forbes, who was21 our Director of Legislative Affairs.22 Q. And I take it Stinziano is a -- is a23 reference to -- which Stinziano?24 A. Fair question. In this case Stinziano

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1 would be Representative Michael Stinziano, Jr., who2 at -- at this time in '14 was in the legislature --3 Q. Okay.4 A. -- in the House of Representatives.5 Q. And you said, "...(and I think LSC)..."6 Who is LSC?7 A. The Legislative Service Commission.8 Q. Okay. And do you recall why they were9 asking those individuals in the -- in the Legislative

10 Service Commission were asking for the same data last11 summer/fall?12 A. I don't remember for sure.13 Q. Okay. Let me give what you will be14 marked as Exhibit 10.15 (EXHIBIT MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)16 Q. This one has a Bates No. SEC005512, and17 this appears to be an e-mail from you to Ms. Pelger18 and a few other people dated April 28, 2014; is that19 correct?20 A. Correct.21 Q. And, again, these are all exchanged22 through personal e-mail addresses?23 A. Yes, it is.24 Q. Okay. And in the e-mail you say,



Exhibit F


Matthew Damschroder


33 (Pages 129 to 132)

Page 129

1 "Talked" -- with -- "w" -- but, "Talked with Pat McD2 via phone." I assume you meant that you talked with3 Pat McDonald by phone?4 A. Correct.5 Q. Okay. And you say, "I think he's6 comfortable with the directive thing. He thinks7 Sandy and prosecuting attorney are going to try to8 make a big deal about directives and advisories9 generally. Pat's thinking is 1) Husted put everyone

10 on notice that OAEO hours were the only11 recommendations out there, that the GA should adopt12 them but didn't, and in the absence of legislative13 activity (and with no one making any other14 recommendations, let alone bipartisan ones) the SOS15 acted; 2) the second directive is within the 90 days;16 3) instructions of the SOS, regardless of whether17 they are directives or advisories, have to be18 followed," and it continues, but that's the part I19 wanted to ask you about. I take it that "Sandy" is a20 reference to Sandy McNair?21 A. I believe so, yes.22 Q. Okay. Who is -- was and is a member of23 the Cuyahoga County Board of Elections?24 A. Correct.

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1 Q. Okay. And do you recall what you were2 referring to in this e-mail in terms of your3 conversation with Mr. McDonald?4 A. Well, I think there were a couple of5 things that were being communicated. You want to go6 line by line, if that's easiest?7 Q. Well, I guess what -- maybe -- maybe8 I'll try to make it a little more direct --9 A. Sure.

10 Q. -- just to make it go a little faster.11 A. As long as it's with a clear record.12 Q. What were you referring to when you said13 that he was "comfortable with the directive thing"?14 A. I don't know for sure what we were15 talking about for purposes of that sentence.16 Q. Uh-huh. Okay. And what were you17 referring to when you said the "OAEO hours were the18 only recommendations out there"?19 A. So after the 2012 election, where the20 Secretary had issued uniform hours, as we talked21 about earlier, there was the Obama for America, OSA22 case that reinstated the last three days in the -- as23 a part of the -- I think the preliminary injunction24 for the 2012 election. I think in summer of '13 was

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1 the -- was the permanent injunction or final2 decision, whatever the --3 Q. Uh-huh.4 A. -- the phrase is in OFA, and in that, as5 I recall, the court instructed that, you know, that6 we needed to have uniform hours, and so the Secretary7 kind of put a call out, again kind of like he did in8 2012, kind of put down a marker and said, you know,9 that the General Assembly, as the law-making body of

10 the State of Ohio, should enact legislation that has11 uniform days and hours and put it in law. There had12 been an OAEO, Ohio Association of Elections13 Officials, committee, bipartisan, equals numbers of14 Ds and Rs, board Directors, Deputy Directors, board15 members, who made a recommendation to the Secretary,16 and at that point in time, as my recollection is, no17 one had introduced legislation proposing hours, and18 at that point in time OAEO was really -- was really19 the only body that had put on paper here is -- here20 is what the state should do.21 Q. Right.22 A. And so I think that's what I was talking23 about, about the -- in that line.24 Q. You mention that the OAEO has an equal

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1 number of Democrats and Republicans I guess on -- in2 its governing body. I think it's called the3 trustees; is that right?4 A. So any county Board of Elections which5 is inherently bipartisan because there's two Rs, two6 Ds, can -- and it's is a separate entity from the7 Secretary of State's Office, so any -- any county can8 pay dues and be -- county Boards of Elections can pay9 dues and become a member, and then there are trustees

10 of -- of the OAEO, equal number of Rs and Ds, and11 then from time to time I think they have special12 committees. I think there's a Legislative Committee13 that has equal numbers of Ds and Rs, and they vote on14 the official position of the OAEO for recommendations15 or endorsement of legislation and those kinds of16 things, so -- and in this case, the trustees, I17 think, my recollection is the trustees established a18 special working group or special committee to make19 recommendations for the days and hours, and it was --20 they were bipartisan membership with that.21 Q. And -- and Mr. McDonald was a -- was a22 trustee at that time of the OAEO?23 A. I don't remember for sure if he was a24 trustee, but I think he was on the absent -- or the



Exhibit F


Matthew Damschroder


34 (Pages 133 to 136)

Page 133

1 committee that was looking at recommendations for2 days and hours.3 Q. Mr. McDonald is a Republican; correct?4 A. He is.5 Q. To your knowledge, were there any6 Democratic trustees that considered the proposal7 regarding the hours for early voting from any of the8 five largest counties in Ohio?9 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.

10 A. I wasn't a member of the -- of the11 committee. I didn't attend any of their meetings, so12 I don't know what all they considered.13 Q. Uh-huh.14 A. My recollection is that there were --15 there were two dissenting votes on the committee that16 made the recommendation. One was a Republican, who17 thought it was too many hours, and one was a18 Democrat. I think it was Zach Manifold from Franklin19 County who said it wasn't enough hours, but with20 the -- I think with the exception of those two, I21 guess those two bipartisan objections, that ended up22 being the recommendation of the -- of the study23 committee and the trustees.24 Q. Okay. Let me just ask you briefly about

Page 134

1 the -- one point underneath the paragraph I just2 read, and I'm not going to read both of them, but it3 says two other items: "1) Pat said Turner, Budish,4 et cetera and 11 churches are having a rally at the5 Cuyahoga Board of Elections on Saturday to highlight6 the need for more weekend and evening voting."7 That -- I take it that was something8 that Mr. McDonald made you aware of in his phone9 conversation with you --

10 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.11 Q. -- that there were these 11 churches and12 these other individuals holding a rally in support of13 more weekend and evening early voting?14 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.15 A. I don't remember for sure, but I believe16 that's probably the case.17 Q. Okay. And you're in turn informing18 these other individuals who are part of the Secretary19 of State's Office?20 A. Yes.21 Q. Let me give you what will be marked as22 Damschroder 11.23 (EXHIBIT MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)24 Q. So this has been Bates numbered

Page 135

1 SEC005087 through 5088, and it appears to be two2 e-mails, both forwarding an article or a news release3 about a Salon.com post or article. The top e-mail is4 from Craig Forbes. Who is Craig Forbes?5 A. He's our Director of Legislative6 Affairs.7 Q. Okay. And it's dated -- his e-mail is8 dated 5/6/14, and it's to Matt McClellan, and then it9 cc's a number of people in the Secretary's --

10 Secretary of State's Office, including yourself?11 A. Yes.12 Q. Okay. And I'm not going to read the13 article, but I'll just ask you if you remember -- do14 you remember this, this being circulated?15 A. I don't remember specifically, but I see16 that I did receive it.17 Q. Uh-huh. It starts out at the beginning,18 "Cuyahoga County Executive Ed FitzGerald today called19 on Secretary of State Jon Husted to explain a new20 report that suggests his administration gave priority21 to political allies and comparably little regard for22 minority constituents while deciding to cut early23 voting days in Ohio for the 2014 general election."24 Do you recall reading or hearing

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1 complaints about Secretary of State Jon Husted2 showing "little regard for minority constituents3 while deciding to cut early voting days in Ohio"?4 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.5 A. I think similar to my -- to my earlier6 testimony, I don't remember this specifically, but I7 do remember that after the 2012 election I think8 there were -- there were people who -- who took that9 position.

10 Q. Uh-huh. And this appears to be talking11 about, I guess, the 2014 general election; is that12 correct?13 A. Well, the -- the e-mail was sent in14 2014, so I don't -- I don't know whether they're15 talking about -- I don't know if the press release is16 talking about the prospective hours for '14 or what17 people said happened in 2012.18 Q. Uh-huh. Well, it says that --19 A. I'm just catching up on reading it. I'm20 sorry.21 Q. Sure. If you'll just read the first22 paragraph, you can read as much as you want, but in23 terms of the time frame that it appears to be talking24 about.



Exhibit F


Matthew Damschroder


35 (Pages 137 to 140)

Page 137

1 A. So it says -- it looks like it's a press2 release from the Cuyahoga County Executive Ed3 FitzGerald, who I think was a candidate for governor4 at that time, that a report from Salon indicates,5 "New report from Salon indicates Secretary of State6 made minimal effort to inform minorities of early7 voting cuts." I don't know whether that Salon8 article was talking about prospective days and hours9 or whether it was talking about something that

10 happened in the past, but it sounds like, from the --11 the first paragraph, that Mr. FitzGerald was talking12 about the Secretary's adoption of the OAEO13 recommended days and hours for the 2014 election14 cycle.15 Q. I know you've testified that you don't16 remember any of the kind of specific documents and17 articles that -- that I've shown you, but do you18 remember as a general matter that there was a fairly19 large degree of media and attention around this issue20 of cutting early voting hours?21 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.22 A. I remember that there was, both in,23 obviously, '12 and again in '14, when the Secretary24 did issue uniform hours, there was a lot of -- there

Page 138

1 was publicity about that decision and allegations of2 whether it was a cut or whether it wasn't and who3 would be, you know, here talking about, alleging a4 little regard for minority constituents.5 Q. Fair to say there was -- there was a lot6 of complaining that the -- that the change in policy7 was unfair to the minority community? I'm not asking8 you to agree with it. I'm just saying that there was9 a lot -- there was a lot of -- there were a lot of

10 complaints made in the media and perhaps directly to11 the office itself that this was unfair to the12 minority community?13 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.14 Mischaracterizes his testimony.15 Q. And I'm really just asking you, you16 know, is that fair to say, that there was -- there17 were a lot of complaints?18 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.19 A. There -- there were objections to the20 Secretary's decision to issue uniform hours, days and21 hours in 2014, yes.22 Q. Okay. And was that true particularly in23 the minority community?24 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.

Page 139

1 A. I think that that was one of the2 allegations that was made, was the -- the impact3 on -- on minority voters.4 Q. Uh-huh. And are you aware of any5 efforts by the Secretary to take that -- that6 sentiment into account or to address that sentiment?7 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.8 A. So I think like I testified earlier,9 the -- the final -- the final decision in OFA versus

10 Husted -- you know, we've talked about uniform hours.11 The Secretary called on the General Assembly, as12 the -- the law-making entity of the state, to issue13 those hours. They did not. The Ohio Association of14 Elections Officials proposed a bipartisan set of15 hours. We didn't receive anything from anybody else16 in terms of a proposal for specific days and hours,17 and the Secretary adopted the OAEO hours.18 Q. Is that really true, that there wasn't19 anything specific? Because there were all these20 counties that we talked about where there actually21 were proposals for -- for hours for that county;22 isn't -- isn't that right?23 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.24 A. So I would say that's not right. I

Page 140

1 would say in 2012, as had been the past practice,2 counties were setting their own hours. The Secretary3 put down a marker and said, you know, if you -- if4 you tie, we'll go with your normal business hours,5 and so at that point in time, there were individual6 counties choosing election by election what their7 hours would be. To my recollection, when the8 Secretary, you know, asked the General Assembly to9 adopt hours, no county board of -- no county Boards

10 of Elections forwarded a proposal to the Secretary11 saying this is what we think you should issue as12 uniform days and hours except for the bipartisan OAEO13 recommendation.14 Q. Bipartisan, but it really wasn't15 endorsed by any of the -- of the Democrats in any of16 the large counties, was it?17 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.18 A. I think -- I -- I can't remember if I19 answered that a little bit ago, but I -- I wasn't a20 member of the OAEO committee. I don't know who was21 on it.22 Q. But you've characterized it as23 bipartisan, so I'm -- I'm questioning that because --24 A. Sure.



Exhibit F


Matthew Damschroder


36 (Pages 141 to 144)

Page 141

1 Q. -- it doesn't sound like there were any2 Democrats from large counties that -- that agreed3 with the recommendation of the OAEO.4 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection. Asked and5 answered.6 A. So I would say that the OAEO does have7 representative Democratic members from urban8 counties, in large counties.9 Q. That agreed with the recommendation?

10 A. And I don't know who was on the11 committee, and I don't know who voted for it. I do12 know that one Democrat and one Republican voted13 against it. The one Democrat that I know of voting14 against it was from Franklin County.15 Q. Uh-huh. And you've mentioned several16 times that the Secretary said that if there was a17 tie, he would just go with the normal business hours.18 What was his basis, to your knowledge, for using19 normal business hours as the appropriate time frame20 for early voting?21 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection. Asked and22 answered.23 A. So when he put that marker down at the24 conference in 2012, that was for the 2012 general

Page 142

1 election, and the intent of that was to avoid Boards2 of Elections tying and having the acrimony and the3 perception of, you know, the Secretary of State4 deciding ultimately what the hours are going to be by5 tie vote, by controversy, and he wanted boards to6 solve the issue locally in a bipartisan fashion.7 Normal office hours being in each county the set of8 hours that the boards had already agreed to locally9 for their operations, and so that seemed to be a

10 reasonable place to -- to start, and to tell the11 counties here's your default, if you can't -- I want12 you to work it out, if you want more, you can have13 more, but you have to decide locally.14 Q. Was there any analysis, to your15 knowledge, of whether the boards -- whether any16 board's normal operating hours would serve as a17 reasonable basis for whatever need the county had in18 terms of early voting hours?19 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.20 A. So I think like I testified to, it was21 the -- the hours that the board had already -- what22 had boards had already adopted for their normal23 business operations, and so that seemed to be a24 reasonable default given that the Secretary was

Page 143

1 trying to get the counties to address, at a local,2 bipartisan level any days and hours that they wanted3 to do beyond that.4 Q. But why would that be a reasonable5 default that these are hours for normal operating6 purposes? Why is that a reasonable default for early7 voting purposes?8 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection. It's been9 asked and answered several times at this point.

10 A. And I would say it was reasonable11 because that's what the board had already decided for12 their normal business hours.13 Q. For operating purposes, not for early14 voting purposes; correct?15 A. Well, arguably the board is open for16 operations during their early voting period, and so,17 you know, when the Secretary was trying to urge18 counties to come up with bipartisan decisions, he19 decided that that was the default that he was going20 to do if -- if they couldn't do it.21 Q. I'm going to hand you what will be22 marked as Damschroder Exhibit 12.23 (EXHIBIT MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)24 Q. And this has Bates Nos. SEC00765 --

Page 144

1 sorry, 7065 and 7066, and the e-mail on the bottom of2 the first page is from Pat McDonald to a number of3 individuals. It appears that that e-mail was not4 initially addressed to you. It's dated September5 5th, 2014. It appears that he forwarded that e-mail6 on to you, but I'm going to read a little bit of this7 one just for context for the -- for the question.8 It says, "Attached per Sandy's request9 is a calendar that lists the early voting hours for

10 the 2010 general election and for the 2014 general11 election per Secretary Husted's Directive 2014-17, as12 well as how Judge Economus' order will affect those13 hours," and then --14 Are you okay?15 MS. RICHARDSON: Sorry.16 MR. SPIVA: No, no. It's okay.17 Q. It goes on to say, "Additionally, the18 deadline to finalize the language for the VIC is19 Monday in order to be able to have it to the post20 office" --21 MS. RICHARDSON: I apologize. Can we22 just take a two-minute break?23 MR. SPIVA: Sure, yeah.24 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record at



Exhibit F


Matthew Damschroder


37 (Pages 145 to 148)

Page 145

1 13:40.2 (Recess taken.)3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On the record at4 13:44.5 BY MR. SPIVA:6 Q. Okay. I apologize, but I think I have7 to start at the beginning of that paragraph there,8 so, "Additionally, the deadline to finalize the9 language for the VIC is Monday in order to be able to

10 have it to the post office by October 20th. If the11 early voting hours are not finalized by Monday" --12 "Monday, our options can include: Listing the hours13 set by Directive 2014-17 but also" -- nothing --14 "noting that the hours and days are subject to change15 due to pending litigation and instructing voters to16 check" -- out -- "check our Website for updates."17 That's one of the options he lists. The18 second option he lists is, "Not listing any hours or19 days for early voting and simply instructing voters20 to check our Website. We can discuss this further21 during New Business at our meeting on Monday22 afternoon."23 Then on the first page Mr. McDonald24 forwards that e-mail from his Cuyahoga County e-mail

Page 146

1 address to his personal e-mail address and then2 further forwards it from his personal e-mail address3 to your personal e-mail address, in an e-mail dated4 September 6th, 2014. Is -- is that an accurate5 description of the -- of that flow as it's reflected6 here?7 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.8 A. Yes. It starts with an e-mail to Pat's9 board members, and ultimately he forwards it to me.

10 Q. Okay. One thing you -- I think you --11 did you say past board members?12 A. To -- I think I said to Pat's board13 members, and then ultimately forwards it to me.14 Q. Thank you. And then the "subject" is15 still "Early Voting Hours," and he says, "Hi16 there" -- this is in his e-mail to you -- "Any advice17 for my Monday's board meeting? Sandy is going to go18 for additional hours or at least the final weekdays19 while awaiting SOS decision. What do you think the20 time frame will be with JH's appeal? Any insight or21 direction you can give me will be beneficial prior to22 our meeting. Thanks Matt." What is Mr. McDonald23 asking you in this e-mail?24 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.

Page 147

1 A. I don't -- I don't know for certain2 other than for "advice for my Monday's board3 meeting." I -- I infer from -- from this that this4 was in the time frame -- I think it was -- this is5 the time frame where there was the NAACP versus6 Husted on the -- on the uniform days and hours7 directive the Secretary had issued for this election,8 and I think based on this, I would have inferred that9 the district court had made a decision and -- and

10 that Pat was going to know whether we were appealing11 or not.12 Q. Uh-huh, uh-huh. Do you understand this13 sentence about Sandy, and so I -- you understand that14 to be Sandy McNair, a board member of the Cuyahoga15 County Board of Elections?16 A. I do.17 Q. Okay. It says, "Sandy is going to go18 for additional hours or at least the final weekdays19 while awaiting SOS decision." Do you take that to20 mean that Mr. McNair was going to seek additional21 hours as a result of the judge's -- the district22 court judge's decision in the NAACP v Husted suit?23 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.24 A. So I don't know precisely what it was,

Page 148

1 because I can't for sure remember what the district2 court's decision was, whether it was put on hold or3 struck down, the directive, which would have left it4 to counties to make, so I don't -- I don't know for5 sure what -- what Pat was communicating to all the6 board members --7 Q. Do you recall --8 A. -- with that first e-mail.9 Q. I'm sorry. Go ahead.

10 A. I don't remember specifically -- I don't11 know what -- what Pat was specifically trying to12 communicate to his board members.13 Q. Uh-huh. But in terms of what he was14 asking you, let me ask you did you -- do you recall15 giving him advice for his Monday board meeting?16 A. Not that I remember.17 Q. Okay. Do you remember giving him advice18 at all concerning early voting hours?19 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.20 A. No.21 Q. I see the top part of this e-mail is22 redacted. Did you forward this e-mail on to someone23 else?24 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.



Exhibit F


Matthew Damschroder


38 (Pages 149 to 152)

Page 149

1 A. I don't know for sure based on -- I2 don't know what was redacted there.3 Q. Okay. Do you know whether you sought4 advice of counsel in connection with this e-mail?5 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.6 A. I don't -- I don't know for sure what --7 what's redacted there.8 Q. Okay. So when you say "for sure," I --9 A. I'm sorry. I do not know why this is

10 redacted.11 Q. Uh-huh. Okay. And I take it you don't12 know whether you sought the advice of counsel in13 connection with this e-mail?14 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection. I'll remind15 you that any -- any advice that you may have received16 from counsel is privileged. I would instruct you not17 to answer it to the extent it would require you to18 describe information that was provided to you by19 counsel.20 BY MR. SPIVA:21 Q. My -- my question right now is not what22 the advice was but whether you sought advice of23 counsel in connection with this e-mail.24 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection. Asked and

Page 150

1 answered.2 A. I don't know what's redacted, and I3 don't remember whether I sought legal counsel or not4 based on this e-mail from Pat.5 Q. Okay. Let me give you what will be6 marked as Exhibit 13, and it's your Declaration that7 was attached to Mr. Trendy's report. I believe8 you -- I think I'm going to take the exhibit -- the9 cover page off of it, because I worry that it's going

10 to cause confusion because this is exhibit number11 that it was with the report, and it's going to have a12 new exhibit number now.13 (EXHIBIT MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)14 Q. And it is thick, but I actually don't15 really need to ask you about most of it, because most16 of it is attachments to your report. Maybe just take17 a minute and look and just see if you recognize18 the -- the document.19 A. It appears to be my Declaration, yeah,20 filed in this case.21 Q. Okay. And who drafted the Declaration?22 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.23 A. Many aspects of it are components that24 have been used in -- in previous matters, and then I

Page 151

1 drafted much of it myself.2 Q. Uh-huh. In previous matters, for3 instance, did you submit a Declaration in connection4 with the NAACP v Husted suit?5 A. I believe I did, yes.6 Q. Okay. And do many components of this7 come from -- from that Declaration?8 A. That's my recollection, yes.9 Q. And -- and who drafted those portions?

10 A. I think I drafted most of them.11 Q. Uh-huh. Okay. Just stepping away from12 the document for a minute, the question I was going13 to ask you at the beginning, which is, what did you14 do to prepare for your deposition today?15 A. I had a deposition last week, and I read16 through part of my Declaration last night during the17 baseball game.18 Q. Other than your counsel, have you had19 conversations with anybody else about your deposition20 or depositions?21 A. I've had conversations with others to22 the extent that I was being deposed, but not anything23 in terms of preparing myself for it.24 Q. Okay. Did you have any conversations

Page 152

1 with any other individuals in the Secretary of2 State's Office?3 A. Not as it relates to today's deposition.4 In preparation for my earlier deposition there were5 attorneys in the room.6 Q. Uh-huh. Okay. And then did you have7 any conversations with Mr. McDonald before either8 this deposition or the deposition last week?9 A. No.

10 Q. Let me ask you to turn to Page 3 of your11 Declaration, Paragraph 19. In Paragraph 19 you say,12 "Despite the many convenient ways for voters to cast13 ballots, in-person voting on Election Day is still14 the most widely utilized means of voting in Ohio. Of15 the 5,773,777 ballots cast during the 2008 general16 election, only 1,744,743 - less than a third - were17 cast by absent-voter ballot, and the overwhelming18 majority of these were by mail. In-person absentee19 voting is the least-utilized means of casting a20 ballot in Ohio."21 Do you -- are you aware of what the22 demographics are of individuals who cast ballots by23 mail, what the demographic breakdown is of -- of24 those individuals? And let's focus on 2008 since



Exhibit F


Matthew Damschroder


39 (Pages 153 to 156)

Page 153

1 that's what this paragraph is focused on.2 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.3 A. I'm not.4 Q. And are you aware of whether -- strike5 that. Are you aware of what the number of early6 in-person voters was in 2008?7 A. I don't know -- I don't remember for8 sure, but it was less than the 1.7 million.9 Q. Uh-huh. But you don't know how much

10 less?11 A. I don't -- I -- well, I think I used the12 phrase "the overwhelming majority...were by mail," so13 it was -- I would say it was significantly less than14 the 1.7 million, but I don't remember the exact15 number.16 Q. Okay. And do you know -- I assume the17 answer would be the same with respect to -- you have18 similar statements regarding the 2010 election,19 general election in Paragraph 20 and the 2012 general20 election in Paragraph 21. I assume the answer would21 be the same, that you don't know the specific number22 of -- or the approximate number of early in-person23 voters in either of those elections?24 A. Correct.

Page 154

1 Q. And you don't know whether that number2 was -- was going up or down?3 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.4 A. I don't remember for sure.5 Q. Are you aware of whether there are any6 differences in the use of early in-person voting in7 the large urban counties than in the smaller, more8 rural counties in Ohio?9 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.

10 A. Can you better tell me what you mean11 by -- by different? Is it just more or --12 Q. Yeah. Is there -- is there a greater13 use of early in-person voting, for instance, in the14 larger counties than in the smaller counties?15 A. I don't know for sure whether that's16 true.17 Q. Do you have a general sense of that?18 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.19 A. Well, I mean, I think there -- you know,20 because there are more total registered voters in the21 larger counties, you know, even if you assume a22 constant percentage, that would be more actual people23 doing -- you know, either by mail or in person.24 Q. How about as a percentage? Do you have

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1 a sense of whether early in-person voting is more2 heavily used as a percentage of population in the --3 in the larger counties than it is in the smaller4 counties?5 A. I --6 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.7 A. I don't know.8 Q. Okay. Turning to the section that9 starts on Page 3, Section B, which is titled, "The

10 Use of Direct Recording Electronic Machines," or11 DREs, and turning your attention specifically to12 Paragraph 26, you say, "In 2006, the State of Ohio,13 using one-time federal funds, purchased new voting14 equipment to comply with the requirements of the15 federal Help America Vote Act of 2002," or HAVA. Do16 you see that?17 A. I do.18 Q. Has that equipment, to your knowledge,19 been replaced in Ohio?20 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.21 A. So there was statewide implementation of22 new systems in 2006, I think with the exception of23 maybe I think Lake and maybe Mahoning, because they24 had recently purchased of their own right beforehand.

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1 I think that -- I do know that some counties, since2 2006, have -- have replaced their systems. Cuyahoga3 switched from DREs to precinct-count optical scan,4 and I think a couple other counties have -- have5 changed since then as well.6 Q. Okay. But there are still a number of7 counties that are using the DRE machines that were8 purchased in 2006?9 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.

10 A. I would say that most counties are still11 using the voting equipment, whether DRE or12 precinct-count optical scan that was purchased in13 '06.14 Q. That -- that equipment is getting pretty15 old at this point?16 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.17 A. So one of the challenges of post-HAVA18 equipment is that it's essentially IT equipment, and19 so I think, you know, I think there's the -- I don't20 even know that the iPhone was invented in 2006 or at21 least publicly available in 2006, when counties were22 first starting to buy this equipment, so I think23 they're -- you know, from an IT lifecycle standpoint,24 you know, counties are talking about upgrading



Exhibit F


Matthew Damschroder


40 (Pages 157 to 160)

Page 157

1 systems, and the Secretary has -- has brought2 attention to that as well.3 Q. Okay. These are -- these are basically4 ten-year old computers?5 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.6 A. They definitely have computer7 components. I would say that the DRE is -- is more8 of a computer per se than the precinct-count optical9 scanner, but certainly all of it is backed up and

10 supported by, you know, software systems11 applications.12 Q. Okay. Would you say that equipment13 that's nearly ten years old, that that's more prone14 to breaking down?15 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.16 A. I don't know that it's -- I wouldn't17 agree with the characterization that it's more prone18 to breaking down. I -- I think the issue is that19 it's just outdated software and things like that,20 that as -- as companies start to stop support of old21 operating systems and those kinds of things, that22 it -- it becomes a necessity to upgrade.23 Q. Uh-huh. In Paragraph 26 you say, "At24 that time" -- referring back to 2006 -- "the number

Page 158

1 of DREs purchased was 1 to 175 registered voters,"2 and then you cite Section 514.03 of Amended3 Substitute House Bill No. 66. Are you --4 A. I'm sorry, can I interject?5 Q. Sure.6 A. Are you talking about Paragraph 26 or7 Paragraph 27?8 Q. 26.9 A. Okay. Thank you. I apologize.

10 Q. No, no. It's all right. What was the11 basis at the time of the 1-to-175 ratio for DRE12 machines?13 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.14 A. So in 2006 -- it started before 2006,15 but the -- the state did a -- kind of a unified bid,16 because HAVA ordered the funds to the chief election17 official of the state to control, and so then18 Secretary Blackwell did a -- kind of a -- a master19 contract, a master bid, and that was the number the20 Secretary of State's Office arrived at.21 Q. Uh-huh.22 A. I don't know why they arrived at that,23 but that was the number that they did.24 Q. Okay. And you say in here that, "Some

Page 159

1 counties, including Franklin County, decided to use2 local taxpayer funds to purchase additional3 quantities of DREs." First of all, were you still4 with -- or with the Franklin County Board of5 Elections at the time that they decided to use funds6 to purchase additional DREs?7 A. Yes. In 2006, I was still the Director8 of the Franklin County Board of Elections.9 Q. And why did Franklin County decide to

10 purchase more -- rather additional quantities of DREs11 than was required by the 1-to-175 ratio?12 A. Because we had a shortage of voting13 machines in 2004 and an exceptionally long ballot in14 2004, high turnout in 2004, that all resulted in long15 lines in 2004 --16 Q. Uh-huh.17 A. -- and I swore that we would never have18 long lines again on Election Day in Franklin County,19 and so I went to our county commissioners and said I20 want to buy more machines, and they said okay.21 Q. Uh-huh.22 Can I just take a two-minute break?23 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: One moment. Off the24 record at 14:05.

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1 (Recess taken.)2 (Last question and answer read back.)3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On the record at4 14:15.5 BY MR. SPIVA:6 Q. All right. Sorry for the break there.7 In just following up on your answer that she just8 read back, is it fair to say that -- that you came to9 the conclusion that this -- that purchasing DRE

10 machines based on the 1 per 175 registered voters11 ratio, that that wasn't sufficient for Franklin12 County's needs?13 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.14 A. I wouldn't say that's a fair15 characterization. Because of my experience in '04, I16 wasn't going to let anybody say -- if we did have17 long lines with 1 to 175, and I don't know that18 anybody expected that to be the case or thought it19 would be the case, but I wasn't going to not request20 additional machines and -- and have something happen.21 I was going to request additional machines almost no22 matter what ratio they came up with.23 Q. Uh-huh. And what was the ratio that you24 ended up with -- with once you purchased the



Exhibit F


Matthew Damschroder


41 (Pages 161 to 164)

Page 161

1 additional machines with the county funds?2 A. I don't remember for sure, but I want to3 say it was 1 to 145 or 1 to 150, but I can't remember4 for sure.5 Q. And did you experience long lines again6 after 2004 in Franklin County?7 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.8 A. Not on Election Day.9 Q. I take it, though, you did experience

10 long lines sometimes during the early voting periods?11 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.12 A. So we had in -- when I was still at the13 Franklin County Board of Elections, we did have long14 lines for early voting during the 2008 general15 election when we did not use the DREs.16 Q. Okay. What was the equipment you were17 using for -- for those elections -- for that18 election?19 A. So for the 2008 general election we used20 DREs for Election Day, but the Secretary of State, in21 2008, instructed us to use central-count paper22 ballots in the -- for in-person absentee voting, and23 in the City of Columbus, which is 70 to 75 percent --24 70 percent of all the registered voters in Franklin

Page 162

1 County, there were I think it was either eight or ten2 bond issues on the ballot in 2008, as there were in3 2004, and so, in Franklin County, in the 2008 general4 election, when we used central-count, we had to print5 a four-page, double-sided ballot for every voter that6 came in the door, as opposed to just entering them7 in -- checking them in the voter register system and8 then giving them a DRE. We had actually purchased9 additional DREs for -- to prepare for the 2008

10 general election for in-person absentee voting, but11 when the Secretary of State told us we had to use12 paper, that -- that holdup at the check-in station to13 print four double-sided pieces of paper for every14 voter took -- took time, so we had lines.15 Q. Do you know what your peak lines were16 during the early voting period in 2008?17 A. I don't -- I don't -- we did not18 track --19 Q. Uh-huh.20 A. -- those lines from a timing standpoint.21 The only thing I remember in terms of that is the22 last voter who cast their in-person absentee ballot23 in the -- on the Monday before the general election24 did so about 1:30 a.m. on Election Day, about six --

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1 five hours before the polls opened, and I remember --2 I remember that specifically because, A, it was late3 and we still had to run the -- the poll lists for all4 the precincts of who had voted absentee, but also, as5 the person walked out, they said I probably could6 have just walked -- walked to my polling place in7 five hours and not had a line, and I think we had8 been opened until nine p.m. for -- for in-person9 voting that Monday before the election.

10 Q. I see. I don't want to ask you too much11 about this because I think you covered it last week,12 but in terms of the 2004 lines, before the -- the13 purchase of DRE machines, Election Day lines, what14 were your peak lines like then?15 A. Again, we didn't -- in Franklin County16 we didn't -- we didn't track time, time to vote in17 2004. We had -- part of our challenge in 2004 was we18 had the older technology voting machine that was kind19 of a -- almost a hybrid between the old lever20 machines and the new DREs. It was a full-face21 electromechanical system, and, again, we had those22 bond issues, and so because of the nature of Franklin23 County, where we have annexation, you could have in24 the same polling place the City of Columbus voters

Page 164

1 and township voters, township voters who didn't have2 the -- the bond issues but had to have their own3 machine, and so you would have a long line at the4 Columbus machine and no line at the township machine5 in the same polling place; so that was our scenario6 in 2004, and we did have long lines.7 Q. And did you have a similar scenario in8 terms of the closing time, you know, people who ended9 up -- the last voter who had gotten in time before

10 the -- the polling closed? What time did the -- the11 last voter leave?12 A. So, again, the example I used earlier13 was for early voting in 2008. We didn't have --14 Q. Sure.15 A. -- any lines really to speak of for16 in-person absentee in 2004 as it was before --17 Q. Sure.18 A. -- no-fault absentee and you had to have19 the -- one of the 12 reasons or so. My20 recollection -- because I remember we reviewed the --21 the paper tapes from the machines, and everything --22 the polls closed at 7:30. My recollection is that23 everything had to close before midnight on all the24 machines that -- that were out.



Exhibit F


Matthew Damschroder


42 (Pages 165 to 168)

Page 165

1 Q. Is it -- is it fair to say, based on2 your experience in Franklin County, that different3 counties may have different needs in terms of the4 appropriate ratio of equipment to voters? And I'm5 focusing on the DRE counties.6 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.7 A. So when you -- when you say "needs,"8 I'm -- I'm inferring from that that -- or answering9 the question with -- that because counties have

10 different sizes, counties have different complexity11 based on split congressional districts, split House12 districts. Columbus is particularly challenging13 because of the annexation component, the size of the14 population, number of voters. There -- there are a15 number of kind of inputs that -- that change the16 complexity from -- from one county to another in17 terms of the administration of the election.18 Q. Uh-huh, uh-huh. And -- and would it --19 would -- you had said in your Paragraph 26 that,20 "Some counties, including Franklin County, decided to21 use local...funds to purchase additional quantities22 of DREs." I assume you would agree that no county23 would -- would spend taxpayer funds for additional24 quantities of DREs unless they thought it was

Page 166

1 necessary to avoid long lines?2 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.3 A. So I don't know what the thought process4 was in other counties that did. In -- in our county,5 I think as I testified previously, I didn't know for6 sure whether it was going to be necessary, but I7 wasn't -- because I didn't know, I was going to ask8 for more so that I could say that I asked for more.9 Q. Uh-huh, uh-huh. Okay. I take it

10 different counties have different abilities to --11 have different budgetary situations; is that -- is12 that correct?13 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.14 A. So the -- the county commissioners of15 each county make the appropriation for the necessary16 and proper expenditures of the board. The Board of17 Elections can sue the county commissioners for18 funding in Common Pleas Court, if needed, and so19 different counties have differing, you know, tax20 bases, ability to levy sales tax, and those kinds of21 things, and so there are different economic22 situations in each county as it relates to the23 commissioners' ability to -- to raise general24 appropriations and to raise general funds and

Page 167

1 appropriate it for the Boards of Elections.2 Q. Now, later on in Paragraph 30 you're3 talking about the revised formula for determining4 whether a county that uses DRE machines has the right5 number of machines, and you say that, "This revision6 to the calculation formula makes sense. The minimum7 number of machines in inventory establishes a8 baseline to make sure that there are sufficient9 machines to accommodate in-person voters on Election

10 Day. Given that many voters in Ohio are choosing to11 vote before Election Day by absentee ballot, it only12 makes sense that the calculation needed to be13 adjusted."14 And I guess my question would be if a15 county determined that there is a lesser need for16 DREs machines, why -- why would they -- and there's17 a -- and there's a lower requirement for those18 machines, why would they -- why would they maintain a19 higher ratio in their inventory?20 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.21 A. I don't think I understand your22 question. I apologize.23 Q. Okay. No. That's all right. So, you24 know, earlier we -- we talked about the fact that

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1 Franklin County decided to -- to use additional funds2 to purchase additional quantities of DREs, so that it3 essentially had a ratio which was -- was a better4 ratio than 1 to 175, and -- and you explain in5 Paragraph 30 that it made sense to adjust the6 1-to-175 ratio by taking a count of the -- what at7 least there seemed to be likely absentee voters; is8 that -- is that fair?9 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.

10 A. So the change in the law would allow a11 Board of Commissioners in future procurement to12 exclude from the -- from the denominator, if you13 will, individual registered voters who had voted14 absentee in one of the exceptions in the statute, and15 that seems reasonable, I think, similar to my16 testimony earlier today that a board can exclude from17 its calculation for purposes of the cap of the number18 of registered voters in a precinct, that they can19 exclude an individual in confirmation status because20 that person hasn't responded to a confirmation card21 confirming that they live in that precinct and would22 utilize the services of that precinct on Election23 Day. Similar here, for purposes of the inventory24 formula, it seems that if a -- if a -- if the



Exhibit F


Matthew Damschroder


43 (Pages 169 to 172)

Page 169

1 commissioners wanted to exclude from the formula2 people who have demonstrated a willingness to use a3 method of voting other than Election Day, that the --4 that the commissioners could exclude from that5 calculation for providing a service for Election Day.6 Q. And if the law permits them to do7 that --8 A. Uh-huh.9 Q. -- and they perceive that the -- that

10 they need a reduced number of machines to meet the11 needs of their county, why would a county go beyond12 the required ratio?13 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection. Calls for14 speculation.15 A. Well, I think similar to the16 recommendation that I made in 2005, 2006 in Franklin17 County, it could just be because they choose to,18 either because of -- for some particular need or19 because there's, you know, bargain basement pricing20 on the system at the time. You know, there could be21 any number of reasons why -- why a -- why a board of22 commissioners wanted to do that.23 Q. Okay. You say in the next paragraph,24 Paragraph 31, "It is worth repeating that this

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1 1-to-175 calculation merely sets the baseline for the2 number of DREs a county must have in its inventory.3 Counties are able to acquire more DRE machines than 14 in 175 voters if they choose to do so." I think that5 raises a question for me, is the 1-to-175 ratio6 arbitrary?7 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.8 A. Again, I don't know how Secretary9 Blackwell came up with the 1 to 175 ratio in 2006.

10 It -- you know, I think it was a choice that was made11 at the time --12 Q. Uh-huh.13 A. -- and I -- and I think it -- it's been14 reasonable, and I think it's reasonable for the15 General Assembly to, on the recommendation of the16 county commissioners, to change the -- the17 denominator on that calculation.18 Q. Would you agree that it's likely that19 most counties, if they don't have to spend the money20 to maintain the ratio, are unlikely to expend those21 funds?22 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.23 A. I wouldn't want to speculate on what24 future decisions of boards of county commissioners

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1 might do, but I think that becomes the -- the2 baseline or the floor for the decision-making3 process. I think, as an aside, it's almost -- it's4 not relevant. Never mind.5 Q. Okay. Now, in Paragraph 35 you say6 that, "Boards of Elections utilizing DREs have a7 fixed inventory of DREs. For boards using DREs for8 both in-person absentee voting and Election Day9 voting, they must make resource allocation decisions

10 for this inventory between in-person voting and11 Election Day voting, since the same machine cannot be12 programmed for both. If more DREs are needed to be13 used for early voting, the board would have to either14 reduce the number of Election Day DREs used or15 purchase more DREs."16 My understanding of what you were saying17 a minute ago, though, is that Franklin County18 actually didn't use DREs for both Election Day voting19 and early voting.20 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.21 Mischaracterizes the testimony.22 A. So Franklin County has always used DREs23 during my tenure as Director or -- well, let me go24 back. Since the start of in-person absentee and

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1 no-fault absentee voting, which coincided with the2 implementation of DREs in Franklin County, during my3 tenure there, we always used the DREs for in-person4 absentee voting, and I believe that continues to be5 the case, with the lone exception of the 2008 general6 election when the state told us we had to use7 central-count optical scan paper ballots, and in8 the -- in 2008, in preparation for planning to use9 DREs in the general election, before we were told not

10 to, Denny White, who was my Deputy Director at the11 time, he and I went out and -- and asked for funding12 from the commissioners to purchase I think an13 additional 100 machines, again for the same reason14 that we had before, so we could have more for15 in-person absentee, and then we ended up not being16 able to use those.17 Q. Uh-huh, uh-huh. Because of the18 directive that you use the -- the optical scan?19 A. Yeah, because of the instructions from20 the Secretary of State then to -- to use paper for21 in-person absentee voting.22 Q. And -- and I take it, though, for the23 elections where you were permitted to use DREs for24 both early in-person and for Election Day voting,



Exhibit F


Matthew Damschroder


44 (Pages 173 to 176)

Page 173

1 that you simply did acquire additional machines to do2 that?3 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.4 A. We acquired the -- the additional5 machines in the two thousand election -- in the 20086 general election for the purpose of having additional7 machines.8 Q. Uh-huh.9 A. I don't know whether Franklin County

10 has -- has used those for Election Day or has used11 those for in person or not since that time.12 Q. Uh-huh, uh-huh. But if I understand13 your testimony correctly, other than that one time14 when you were required to use the optical scan for15 the early voting, you used the DREs for both -- "you"16 being Franklin County -- for both early voting and17 for Election Day voting?18 A. Yes. So with the exception of the '0819 general election, we used our DREs, "we," Franklin20 County, used our DREs for both in-person absentee21 voting and Election Day voting. For purposes of22 clarity, we didn't use the same individual DRE unit23 for in-person absentee that we used for Election Day,24 because when you program a DRE for early voting,

Page 174

1 you're programming that machine for all the ballot2 styles in the entire county, whereas for an Election3 Day DRE, you program the DRE for only the ballot4 styles that are available in that particular polling5 place.6 Q. Uh-huh. In those elections in which you7 used both -- you used DREs for both early voting8 and -- early in-person voting and Election Day9 voting, did you have to reduce the number of Election

10 Day DREs that you -- that you -- that you used?11 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.12 A. I don't remember the exact number that13 Franklin County deployed. We certainly didn't14 jettison any of our inventory. I mean, we still had15 our -- our inventory, but because we had purchased16 additional machines, we had more than ample number17 of -- of voting machines for in-person absentee and18 Election Day.19 Q. Okay. And that was in 2010, I take it?20 A. Yes.21 Q. Let me ask you to turn to Page 7,22 Section D of your Declaration, "Provisional Ballot23 Information," and feel free to take a look at that24 section for a minute. I'm going to have a couple of

Page 175

1 questions first on Paragraph 49.2 A. Okay.3 Q. So, first of all, I think you are -- in4 Paragraph 49, where you talk about "the additional5 information," that you're -- you're talking about the6 additional information required by 3505.183, et7 cetera, which you recite up above in Paragraph 48?8 A. Yes.9 Q. And that's the -- "the additional

10 information" is date of birth and address information11 that has to be put on provisional ballots as a result12 of the -- those -- of that statute?13 A. Yes.14 Q. And you say that, "The additional15 information (date of birth and address) will assist16 the boards during the process where they endeavor to17 identify the voter in their registration books.18 There are many individuals in Ohio who share the same19 name, and there are also individuals who share the20 same last four digits of their Social Security21 numbers."22 I take it that since the passage of23 3505.183, that even where the board is able to24 identify the voter in their registration books, if

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1 they leave off the address or date of birth2 information from their provisional ballot, that3 ballot will not be counted; correct?4 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.5 A. So the change, I think we kind of talked6 about earlier, institutes the -- the same five fields7 for registration as to the same five fields for8 requesting an absentee, casting an absentee and9 casting a provisional. I think the biggest thing to

10 note with provisional ballots is that the majority of11 these ballots are casts -- are cast on Election Day12 when a person has moved and not updated their13 address, and because the provisional ballot also14 serves as a means to update the person's15 registration, a form of registration, a registration16 form, it's reasonable to have the same -- the same17 fields for registration as for provisional, and18 specifically as it relates to date of birth, the --19 you know, because there are some people who share20 last names, maybe a first initial, last four of21 Social, because a person doesn't actually have to22 write a form of identification on the envelope, they23 can show the poll worker a bank statement that has24 their name and address on it or other qualifying



Exhibit F


Matthew Damschroder


45 (Pages 177 to 180)

Page 177

1 forms of identification. Having date of birth can2 help the Board of -- the Board of Elections identify3 the voter in the voter file, determine their4 eligibility necessary to count the ballot, and then5 update the person's registration.6 I think to your -- to your question,7 if -- if a person, after the enactment of these laws,8 were to leave off the date of birth and address, the9 person's provisional ballot would not count subject

10 to, of course, the exceptions in the law for date of11 birth, when it's allowed to not match, and the12 person's --13 Q. Actually put it down, but it's the14 wrong --15 A. Yes.16 Q. -- date of birth?17 A. Thank you for clarifying.18 Q. Uh-huh.19 A. But the -- the ballot would not count in20 those -- in those instance, subject to the exception,21 and the person's registration would not be updated22 for the next election.23 Q. Uh-huh. But prior to the change that24 this law made, if a person did not put their date of

Page 178

1 birth or address on their provisional ballot but the2 board was able, nonetheless, to identify the voter,3 that provisional ballot would have counted?4 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.5 Q. Isn't that right?6 A. So, you know, a similar issue with the7 provisional envelope as we talked about earlier with8 the absentee envelope, where state law wasn't clear9 on what was required but what isn't, but the law

10 prescribed the form of the envelope, similar to the11 absentee --12 Q. But it became clear after 2008, didn't13 it?14 THE REPORTER: I'm sorry, your question15 again?16 Q. It became clear after 2008; right? I17 mean, I think you testified to that earlier, that it18 became -- that it got clarified in 2008?19 A. As related to --20 MS. RICHARDSON: And I'm going to object21 and ask that he be allowed to finish his answer to22 the question.23 MR. SPIVA: Well, it's just -- I mean,24 you know, we talked at length earlier about the fact

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1 that it was clarified in 2008. All right. So I2 don't want to hear a lengthy answer talking about how3 it was unclear in 2014.4 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, you asked him a5 question that has already been answered, and so he is6 repeating the answer that he gave previously.7 MR. SPIVA: It has not been answered.8 It deserves an answer, but it has not been answered.9 BY MR. SPIVA:

10 Q. And so I don't want the record to go off11 track here, and so I just want to clarify that in12 2008, there was no confusion after that as to whether13 date of birth or address information was required on14 the provisional ballot envelope; isn't that correct?15 MS. RICHARDSON: I'm going to object,16 and I'm going to object in particular to the17 badgering of the witness, and I'm going to repeat18 again that I will ask that he always be allowed to19 answer his question --20 MR. SPIVA: You can make your objections21 for the record.22 MS. RICHARDSON: I am making my23 objections for the record.24 MR. SPIVA: But speaking objections and

Page 180

1 the coaching of the witness are uncalled for and2 inappropriate, and you know it and I know it.3 MS. RICHARDSON: I absolutely have not4 been making speaking objections. I have been simply5 stating objection. At this point in time you are6 interrupting the witness. It's on the record. It's7 on the video. You're now interrupting me. I am8 simply asking that he be allowed to give whatever9 answer he believes is a truthful, complete answer,

10 and you may then ask whatever question you choose to11 after he finishes his answer and after I make12 whatever objections are appropriate for the record.13 MR. SPIVA: Are you done?14 MS. RICHARDSON: I am finished. Thank15 you.16 MR. SPIVA: Okay. You get the last17 word.18 BY MR. SPIVA:19 Q. All right. My question is this, prior20 to the enactment of 3505.183, a voter who did not put21 his or her address or date of birth on the22 provisional ballot envelope and yet the board could23 verify that voter's identity and the fact that they24 were a registered voter, that voter's ballot would



Exhibit F


Matthew Damschroder


46 (Pages 181 to 184)

Page 181

1 count; correct?2 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.3 A. The form prescribed by the statute had a4 blank for date of birth, and there was confusion5 prior to 2008 on provisionals. I was testifying6 earlier about the confusion in '08 about absentees.7 In 2012, to ensure that there would not be confusion,8 we removed, "we," the Secretary of State's Office,9 removed date of birth from the envelope for

10 provisionals because the statute did not have a11 reason to reject a provisional. So, in 2012, a12 person would not have written their date of birth13 because the Secretary of State wanted to ensure that14 a provisional -- an otherwise valid provisional would15 not be rejected because of the confusion that existed16 in 2012 as related to date of birth for the17 provisional envelope. That was clarified in the --18 in legislation that was passed in 2004, that resulted19 in the new Section 3505.183, where date of birth was20 required.21 Q. I think you meant 2014.22 A. Did I say '04?23 Q. Yes.24 A. I apologize.

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1 Q. No problem. And -- and prior to that,2 prior to the 2014 change in the law, if a person had3 not written their date of birth or address on the4 envelope for the provisional ballot, as long as the5 Board of Elections could verify that they were6 registered, that ballot would have -- would have7 counted; correct?8 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.9 A. In Franklin County, prior to the change

10 in the envelope and prior to -- well, prior to the11 change in the envelope in 2012 in Franklin County, a12 person who did not write their date of birth, the13 provisional would have been rejected. That was14 changed in 2012 because we took the blank off of the15 envelope. Now the blank is back on, and it's a16 required field.17 Q. And that was true even after the18 clarification that you testified about earlier in19 2008?20 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection. Asked and21 answered.22 A. And for purposes of the record, the23 clarification I was talking about earlier as in,24 like, before the lunch break had to do with the

Page 183

1 clarification of the absentee identification2 envelope, which is different than the provisional3 identification envelope.4 Q. Okay. And so a person who casts an5 absentee ballot prior to the change in the law6 concerning information required on the absentee7 envelopes, who did not put their date of birth or8 address, would have had their ballot counted?9 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection. Asked and

10 answered.11 A. After the -- for purposes of absentee,12 after the clarification in '08, if a person did not13 put their date of birth on the identification14 envelope for an absentee ballot, it would have15 counted.16 Q. Okay. And -- but after the change in17 the law concerning the information required on18 absentee ballots, a person who did not put their date19 of birth or address on the envelope, even if the20 board can verify that they were registered voters,21 that ballot would not count; correct?22 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection. Asked and23 answered.24 A. After the law changed, if a person did

Page 184

1 not provide their date of birth, that ballot -- that2 provisional ballot would not be allowed to be counted3 by the board because it did not satisfy the4 requirements of the law that all five fields be5 there, unless date of birth was provided, but there6 was exceptions defined.7 Q. And going back to provisional ballots,8 in Franklin County, after you took the space for the9 date of birth off of the provisional ballot envelope

10 in 2012 but prior to the change in the law, a person11 who did not put their date of birth or address on the12 provisional ballot envelope, their vote would have13 counted; correct?14 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.15 A. So prior to the Secretary, in 2012,16 Secretary Husted taking date of birth off the17 envelope, prior to that when date of birth was on the18 envelope, I don't believe that there was a uniform19 understanding of the law by the county Boards of20 Elections on whether or not to count the provisional21 with or without the date of birth. In Franklin22 County we would have rejected it because we perceived23 it as a required field, again, because the24 clarification had been made about absentee, not about



Exhibit F


Matthew Damschroder


47 (Pages 185 to 188)

Page 185

1 provisional.2 Q. Right. But I think you also testified3 that in 2012 that the date of birth field was taken4 off --5 A. Correct.6 Q. -- correct, the provisional ballot?7 A. By Secretary Husted.8 Q. Okay. And after that point, if somebody9 did not put their date of birth on, assuming that

10 they could be verified as a voter, their provisional11 ballot would have counted?12 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.13 A. So because the date of birth was removed14 from the envelope, there wouldn't have been a place15 for a person to provide the date of birth, so it16 wouldn't have been relevant in the board's17 consideration of whether to count the ballot or not.18 So the board would have had to identify the voter19 based on the information on the envelope, and date of20 birth would not have been one of the components for21 finding the voter in the voter file.22 Q. And assuming they were able to identify23 the voter, the ballot would have counted; correct?24 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection. This has

Page 186

1 been asked and answered and asked and answered.2 A. That's correct.3 Q. Thank you. Let me ask you about4 Paragraph 56 of your Declaration. You have here,5 "Ohio law requires the absentee ballot application to6 contain the voter's (a) name, (b) address, (c) date7 of birth, (d) signature, (e) one of the following:8 driver's license number or state identification9 number; (2) the last four digits of the voter's

10 Social Security number; (3) a copy of a current and11 valid photo identification, military identification,12 current utility bill, bank statement, government13 check, paycheck, or other government document showing14 the voter's address."15 "The statute also requires the16 application to contain a statement identifying the17 election for which the absent voter's ballot is18 requested, a statement that the person requesting the19 ballot is a qualified elector (both of which are20 frequently preprinted on the application), the21 voter's party affiliation if the request is for a22 partisan primary election, and the address to which23 the ballot shall be mailed, if different from the24 voter's registration address."

Page 187

1 My question is that given that all of2 this information is required on the application for3 an absentee ballot, what is the purpose of requiring4 those same five fields on the envelope of the actual5 absentee ballot?6 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.7 A. Well, I think the key there is for the8 election official -- you know, the election officials9 that match up the application with the envelope when

10 it comes back, those are the fields that the General11 Assembly decided to -- to have, to require, and, you12 know, I think they -- they speak to different13 components, but those are the same fields, and then I14 don't think it's unreasonable for the same five15 fields to be -- have requirement -- for there to be a16 requirement for the same five fields for the17 application as for -- on the envelope.18 Q. But what is the need of that, that --19 those same five fields on both the application and --20 and the envelope of the ballot?21 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.22 A. Well, the Boards of Elections review the23 identification envelopes when they come back in to24 determine the qualifications of the elector separate

Page 188

1 from the review of the application that caused the2 ballot to be issued, and all of those -- all of those3 different components, you know, go to a different4 part of the election process, date of birth, you5 know, age eligibility of the voters, address, is the6 person, you know, registered at the address in which7 they reside, casting the correct ballot style,8 identification envelope, form of identification, is9 the person, you know, that they say they are, the

10 signature, an attestation to the form; so I think11 they all have a different -- a different kind of12 function.13 Q. Uh-huh, uh-huh. Isn't it correct that14 in the vast majority of cases the boards were able to15 verify the identity and eligibility of the absentee16 voter before those additional information17 requirements?18 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.19 A. So for purposes of Paragraph 56, the20 only additional requirement for the absentee21 application would be the date of birth. It was on22 the envelope before, and we talked about it. I23 apologize. Now, I don't want to -- just reference24 it, but most absentee ballots did indeed count.



Exhibit F


Matthew Damschroder


48 (Pages 189 to 192)

Page 189

1 Q. In Paragraph 84 -- I just want to turn2 to a different topic, which is from your Section G,3 "Preparing for Elections," and in Paragraph 84 you4 say, "In order to facilitate additional evening and5 weekend in-person absentee voting, Boards of6 Elections must ensure adequate staffing during those7 hours. This can be burdensome and costly for boards8 that are already operating under tight budgetary9 restrictions. In addition, these staff cannot

10 complete other necessary tasks while tending to11 in-person absentee voters."12 Do you know what the incremental cost of13 Golden Week was prior to its elimination?14 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.15 A. I don't know that there was ever a16 specific cost requested of boards to track or -- so I17 don't know that there's a known number on that.18 Q. Uh-huh. And are you aware of specific19 counties that -- for which Golden Week posed a -- a20 burdensome cost given their budget -- budgetary21 restriction?22 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.23 A. So I think because to my knowledge24 there's never been a -- you know, boards didn't track

Page 190

1 the cost of absentee voting by week, so I don't know2 that -- that, you know, that there's an answer to3 that other than to say that I think boards from --4 for an absentee -- in-person absentee voting5 generally there is a -- a different and unique cost6 associated with that, different than the rest of the7 election operations.8 Q. Is that early voting or Golden Week?9 A. I'm sorry. The whole thing.

10 Q. Uh-huh.11 A. And then a portion of that would be the12 costs related to Golden Week, but like I said, I13 don't think anyone's ever studied it specifically.14 Q. Right. Okay. Are you aware that in15 Cuyahoga County the cost of Golden Week was actually16 a pretty minor percentage, it was a pretty minor17 percentage of -- of their budget?18 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.19 A. I don't know what the costs were in any20 counties related to just Golden Week.21 Q. Okay. Are you aware that -- strike22 that. In Section I you -- you talk about wait times,23 and in Paragraph 88 you reference a -- I believe a24 study by Charles Stewart and -- and other --

Page 191

1 actually, just Charles Stewart, and you say that,2 "The mean wait time for early in-person voting in3 Ohio decreased from 21 minutes...to 7.7 minutes...for4 the 2008 and 2012 presidential elections5 respectively. Thus, while the number of absentee6 ballots cast increased from 2008 to 2012, the two7 most recent presidential elections, wait times for8 early in-person voting decreased."9 I take it that, obviously, during both

10 the 2008 and 2012 elections Golden Week was still11 part of the early in-person voting period?12 A. It was.13 Q. And the averages that you're citing from14 the Stewart study, are those statewide averages?15 A. So I -- I recall, based on a16 conversation with Professor Stewart, that this came17 from his Survey of the Performance of American18 Elections data, which I think is a -- is a poll, and19 so I think the -- the observations from the poll20 were -- were statewide.21 Q. Uh-huh. And you mentioned a22 conversation with Professor Stewart. You had a23 conversation with him about -- about wait times in24 Ohio?

Page 192

1 A. Not specific -- I did not have a2 conversation with Professor Stewart specifically3 about wait times. I've had conversations with --4 with Professor Stewart on several occasions about a5 number of things. In this particular instance, I had6 asked Charles if he had data on wait times in 20087 and 2011.8 Q. Okay. And then in Paragraph 89 you say,9 "Based on data analyzed from Professor Stewart,

10 Election Day voting wait times dropped from 12.311 minutes...to 11.2 minutes.. from 2008 to 2012." And12 again, is that referencing statewide wait times?13 A. So it would be the -- the statewide14 observations from -- from his FP -- SPAE survey.15 Q. Uh-huh. Are you aware of what the16 average wait time was in -- in either 2008 or 2012 on17 Election Day in Franklin County?18 A. I'm not.19 Q. How about in Cuyahoga County?20 A. I'm not.21 Q. Do you know what it was in Hamilton22 County?23 A. No.24 Q. Do you know what it was in any specific



Exhibit F


Matthew Damschroder


49 (Pages 193 to 196)

Page 193

1 county?2 A. No.3 MR. SPIVA: Can we go off the record for4 just a couple of minutes? I think I may be done.5 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: One moment. Off the6 record at 15:02.7 (Recess taken.)8 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On the record at9 15:10.

10 BY MR. SPIVA:11 Q. All right. Mr. Dylan, I just have a few12 more questions -- sorry. Mr. Damschroder.13 A. It is late in the afternoon. It's all14 right.15 Q. So in your capacity when you were16 Assistant Secretary of State, Director of Elections,17 did you have occasion to advise Secretary Husted on18 how to break tie votes among Boards of Elections19 concerning early voting hours?20 A. I don't -- because the Secretary -- I21 don't recall any tie votes on early voting hours22 prior to the summer of 2012, when the Secretary had23 put down the marker in the summer, and so there24 really wasn't any conversation about those tie votes

Page 194

1 other than we established a policy and we're going to2 follow it.3 Q. Uh-huh. Okay. But you didn't provide4 any advice to the Secretary on that?5 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.6 A. I guess I don't understand your7 question. I -- there really wasn't anything to8 advise the Secretary on because the Secretary had9 established a policy of what he was going to do --

10 Q. I see.11 A. -- and we did it.12 Q. Okay. And subsequent to that time13 period in 2012, was there occasion, either as14 Director of Elections or now as Chief of Staff, where15 you've had occasion to advise the Secretary on16 breaking tie votes among the boards, Boards of17 Elections?18 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.19 A. On tie votes for Boards of Elections20 generally or specific to absentee hours?21 Q. Specific to -- specific to absentee22 hours.23 A. Other than those ties in 2012, I24 don't -- I don't remember any tie votes about that

Page 195

1 subject since there have been directives establishing2 uniform hours for the whole state.3 Q. We talked a fair amount about long4 lines, and you talked here a lot about long lines in5 2004. In Franklin County did you experience long6 lines either during the early voting period or on7 Election Day in 2008?8 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.9 A. So I think as I testified earlier, we

10 did have long lines for in-person absentee voting in11 2008 in Franklin County, and I'm not aware of any12 long lines on Election Day in Franklin County in13 2008.14 Q. Uh-huh. And where were the long lines15 for in-person absentee voting in Franklin County in16 2008?17 A. We just had one location. At -- at Vets18 Memorial we only had one location.19 Q. Okay. And you didn't have long lines at20 OSU in 2008?21 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.22 A. I'm sorry. I understood your question23 to be whether we had long lines in 2008 for in-person24 absentee voting.

Page 196

1 Q. Let me ask -- let me ask about both. I2 don't want to -- just so we get a clean record, I'll3 -- I'll just do them one at a time.4 A. Okay.5 Q. I take it from what you said a minute6 ago, you did experience some long lines during7 early in-person absentee voting in 2008; is that8 correct?9 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.

10 A. Yes, we had long lines in Franklin11 County in '08 for in-person absentee voting over at12 Vets Memorial.13 Q. Okay. And in 2008 did you experience14 long lines on Election Day in Franklin County?15 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.16 A. So in 2008, in Franklin County, I don't17 remember significant -- I don't remember reports of18 specific places where we had long lines.19 Q. Was there -- were there -- were there --20 do you recall anything about long lines at Ohio21 Union?22 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.23 Q. In 2008.24 A. So in 2008, in Franklin County, the only



Exhibit F


Matthew Damschroder


50 (Pages 197 to 200)

Page 197

1 thing I remember about Ohio Union is that they were2 running low on provisional ballot envelopes and paper3 ballots, but I don't remember anything about long4 lines to wait to vote to use the voting machines5 for -- to cast a regular ballot.6 Q. And how about in 2012, did -- I take it7 you were in the Secretary of State's Office by the8 2012 general election?9 A. Yes.

10 Q. But did you have any knowledge of long11 lines in Franklin County -- why don't we first start12 with early -- during the early in-person voting13 period?14 A. So the only recollection I have of long15 lines in Franklin County in 2012 for early voting, I16 think it was the Monday before the election, the17 board, I can't remember if it was Bill or Dana or who18 called, "Dana" being Dana Walsh, "Bill" being Bill19 Anthony, called because their -- they had lost the20 connectivity for -- to their server --21 Q. Uh-huh.22 A. -- for about an hour, and I think they23 had some lines during that time frame while they were24 waiting for the connectivity to come back up for the

Page 198

1 check-in, but there wasn't a machine problem. It was2 the check-in with the county software system for3 registration.4 Q. Okay. And did you become aware of what5 kinds of lines were developing as a result of that6 situation in terms of the length of the wait?7 A. I don't -- I don't think they ever8 informed us about quantity or people who -- who9 were -- the number of people who were waiting. My

10 recollection is it was -- it was resolved, like,11 within an hour or an hour and a half and they were12 back up and connected; so I don't remember -- I13 don't -- I don't remember them ever saying how many14 people were in line.15 Q. Okay. And then in terms of long lines16 on Election Day in 2012, did you become aware of17 any problems in Franklin County with long lines in18 2012?19 MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.20 A. So in Franklin County, 2012, again,21 Election Day, no, not that I'm aware of.22 Q. And how about at the -- on the OSU23 campus?24 A. Not that I'm aware of, but at the

Page 199

1 Secretary of State's Office we wouldn't necessarily2 become aware of a -- of a particular line length at a3 particular polling place in the state.4 Q. Okay. I don't think I have anything5 else.6 MS. RICHARDSON: No questions.7 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: One moment. Off the8 record. End of deposition at 15:17.9 (Thereupon, the deposition concluded at

10 3:17 p m. Signature not waived.)1112131415161718192021222324

Page 200

1 State of Ohio : : SS:

2 County of :34 I, Matthew M. Damschroder, do hereby

certify that I have read the foregoing transcript of5 my deposition given on Thursday, October 29, 2015;

that together with the correction page attached6 hereto noting changes in form or substance, if any,

it is true and correct.78

_________________________9 MATTHEW M. DAMSCHRODER

1011 I do hereby certify that the foregoing

transcript of the deposition of Matthew M.12 Damschroder was submitted to the witness for reading

and signing; that after he had stated to the13 undersigned Notary Public that he had read and

examined his deposition, he signed the same in my14 presence on the _____ day of _____________, 2015.1516

_________________________17 Notary Public181920 My commission expires ___________________, ________.21 - - -222324



Exhibit F


Matthew Damschroder


51 (Page 201)

Page 201

1 CERTIFICATE2 State of Ohio :

: SS:3 County of Franklin :4 I, Valerie J Sloas, Notary Public in

and for the State of Ohio, duly commissioned and5 qualified, certify that the within named Matthew M

Damschroder was by me duly sworn to testify to the6 whole truth in the cause aforesaid; that the

testimony was taken down by me in stenotype in the7 presence of said witness, afterwards transcribed upon

a computer; that the foregoing is a true and correct8 transcript of the testimony given by said witness

taken at the time and place in the foregoing caption9 specified and completed without adjournment

10 I certify that I am not a relative,employee, or attorney of any of the parties hereto,

11 or of any attorney or counsel employed by theparties, or financially interested in the action

12 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set

13 my hand and affixed my seal of office at Columbus,Ohio, on this 2nd day of November, 2015

141516 ___________________________

Valerie J Sloas, Registered17 Professional Reporter and

Notary Public in and for the18 State of Ohio1920 My commission expires June 8, 201621 (VJS-79564)222324



Exhibit F




Exhibit F


Deposition of Patrick McDonald, taken October 28, 2015


Page 1

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF OHIO EASTERN DIVISION

OHIO DEMOCRATIC PARTY, )et al., ) ) Plaintiffs, ) Case No. 2:15CV1802vs. ) Judge Watson ) Magistrate Judge KingJON HUSTED, et al., ) ) Defendants. )

- - - - -

THE VIDEOTAPE DEPOSITION OF PAT MCDONALD

WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 28, 2015

- - - - -

The videotape deposition of PAT MCDONALD,

called by the Plaintiffs for examination pursuant

to the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, taken

before me, the undersigned, Lynn A. Regovich,

Notary Public within and for the State of Ohio,

taken at the offices of Cady Reporting Services,

1468 West 9th Street, Suite 440, Cleveland, Ohio,

commencing at 9:00 a.m., the day and date above set

forth.



Exhibit G




2 (Pages 2 to 5)

Page 2

1 APPEARANCES:2 On behalf of the Plaintiffs:3 Bruce V Spiva, Esq

Perkins, Coie4 700 13th Street, NW

Suite 6005 Washington, DC 20005-3960

202 654 63216 bspiva@perkinscoie com7


Bridget C Coontz, Esq9 Ohio Attorney General

30 E Broad Street10 16th Floor

Columbus, Ohio 4321511 614 466 2872

bridget coontz@ohioattorneygeneral gov1213 On behalf of the Witness:14 Brendan Doyle, Esq

Cuyahoga County Prosecutor's Office15 The Justice Center, Courts Tower

1200 Ontario Street, 8th Floor16 Cleveland, Ohio 44113

216 443 779517 bdoyle@prosecutor cuyahogacounty us18

ALSO PRESENT:19

Keith McGregor, Videographer202122232425

Page 3

1 PAT MCDONALD DEPOSITION INDEX2 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE NO.

MR. SPIVA .................... 434 EXHIBIT NO. PAGE NO.

McDonald 1 .................... 605 McDonald 2 .................... 83



McDonald 7 .................... 11089

10111213141516171819202122232425

Page 4

1 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're on the2 record. This is the videotape deposition of3 Patrick McDonald taken on October 28th, 2015.4 The time is approximately 9:17 a.m. We're5 located at 1468 West 9th Street, Cleveland,6 Ohio where we're here on the matter of the Ohio7 Democratic Party, et al., versus Jon Husted,8 et al., Case No. 2:15-CV-1802. It is to be9 heard in the U.S. District Court for the

10 Southern District of Ohio, Eastern Division.11 My name is Keith McGregor I am the court12 reporter, and our court reporter is13 Lynn Regovich.14 Will the court reporter please swear in15 the witness.16 PAT MCDONALD17 of lawful age, called by the Plaintiffs for18 examination pursuant to the Federal Rules of Civil19 Procedure, having been first duly sworn, as20 hereinafter certified, was examined and testified21 as follows:22 MR. SPIVA: Good morning,23 Mr. McDonald.24 THE WITNESS: Good morning.25 MR. SPIVA: We met a

Page 5

1 minute ago. My name is Bruce Spiva. I'm with2 Perkins, Coie and I represent the plaintiffs in3 this matter. As I'm sure your attorney has4 told you, we're here to take your deposition5 today, and my first question I guess is have6 you ever been deposed before?7 THE WITNESS: I have.8 MR. SPIVA: Okay. Well,9 you probably are familiar with how this works,

10 but I'll just briefly go over some of the11 ground rules. You know, I'll ask questions and12 I'd appreciate it if you would try to answer13 them fully to the best of your ability.14 Because the court reporter is taking down15 everything we say, if you can wait until I get16 the whole question out before responding, and I17 will also try to wait until you get your whole18 answer out before asking you another question.19 Does that seem fair?20 THE WITNESS: Sure.21 MR. SPIVA: And then it's22 also important in ordinary conversation we say23 uh-huh or we shake our heads or nod to get out24 verbal answers. So if you can say yes or no or25 elaborate as the case may be, I'd appreciate



Exhibit G




3 (Pages 6 to 9)

Page 6

1 that too.2 Are you under any medications or anything3 that would prevent you from being able to4 testify accurately and truthfully today?5 THE WITNESS: No.6 MR. SPIVA: And if you7 need a break at any point, just let me or8 counsel know, we can do that. The only9 exception is if there's a question on the

10 table, I'd just ask that you finish your answer11 to the question and then we can take a break12 after that. But otherwise, you know, if at any13 point you need a break, just let us know.14 EXAMINATION OF PAT MCDONALD15 BY MR. SPIVA:16 Q Now, you said you had been deposed before. How17 many times?18 A I think three times.19 Q And can you tell me what that was in connection20 with, those three times?21 A One was a personnel related deposition with the22 Ohio Lottery Commission, and the other two23 times was with election related issues when I24 was deputy director of the Cuyahoga County25 Board of Elections.

Page 7

1 Q Were you deposed in connection with the NAACP2 v. Husted case?3 A I was not.4 Q And you mentioned that two of the three times5 were election related issues. Can you just6 briefly describe what those cases were? If you7 remember the title of the case, great, but if8 not, maybe just a brief description of what the9 matter was.

10 A I do not remember the title of the case. It11 was basically dealing with voter registration12 and the NCOA purge issues that the Board of13 Elections go through and both of them were14 similar depositions.15 Q And about when did those occur?16 A Would have been at least four years ago.17 Q Both of them occurred at least four years ago?18 A Yeah.19 Q Let me ask you a few questions about your20 background and just to speed things up to some21 of these I'll just ask you leading questions22 where I know the answer and then we can have a23 more -- more of a discussion, but as I24 understand it you are currently the director of25 the Cuyahoga County Board of Elections?

Page 8

1 A Correct.2 Q And you were appointed in January of 2013?3 A Correct.4 Q Who appointed you?5 A The board members, four board members of the6 Board of Elections.7 Q And prior to that you served as the deputy8 director of the Cuyahoga County Board of9 Elections?

10 A Correct.11 Q And approximately how long were you the deputy12 director?13 A Five, five and a half years.14 Q So you were appointed approximately 2007 to the15 deputy director position?16 A Correct.17 Q And prior to that you were the deputy state18 treasurer in the Ohio Treasurer's Office; is19 that correct?20 A That's correct.21 Q And that was approximately 2005 to 2006?22 A Correct.23 Q Who was your boss when you were the deputy24 state treasurer?25 A Treasurer Jeannette Bradley.

Page 9

1 Q And is that an elected position, the2 treasurer's position?3 A Yes.4 Q What party was Ms. Bradley during the time you5 served on --6 A Republican.7 Q And the deputy state treasurer, is that an8 appointed position? In other words, did you9 have to be confirmed by the Ohio legislature,

10 or was it just something -- was it a11 non-confirmable position?12 A Non-confirmable position. I was appointed by13 her or hired by her.14 Q And prior to that you were the assistant15 director of the Ohio Department of Commerce; is16 that correct?17 A That's correct.18 Q And you held that position from approximately19 1999 to 2005?20 A Correct.21 Q And who did you -- who was your boss in that22 position?23 A There was two different directors at the time.24 The first one was Gary Suhadolnik, and then the25 second one was the Lieutenant Governor Jeanette



Exhibit G




4 (Pages 10 to 13)

Page 10

1 Bradley before she was state treasurer.2 Q And prior to that you were the finance director3 for the Ohio Secretary of State between 19914 and 1999; is that correct?5 A That's correct.6 Q And who was the Secretary of State when you had7 that role? And if it changed, just let me8 know.9 A No, it was one person for the full eight years,

10 Bob Taft.11 Q And what party is Mr. Taft?12 A He is a Republican.13 Q And you are also a member of the Ohio14 Association of Elections Officials; is that15 correct?16 A I am.17 Q Until recently you were a trustee of that18 organization?19 A Correct.20 Q What does that entail, being a trustee of the21 OAEO?22 A Basically the main responsibility is to vote on23 legislation and legislate initiatives that the24 association would want to put forward.25 Q And when you say, "Vote on legislation," you

Page 11

1 mean this is legislation that they would want2 to propose to the Ohio General Assembly?3 A Correct.4 Q And how long were you trustee?5 A I would say two to three years.6 Q And is that kind of the term for a trustee?7 A Yes.8 Q And approximately what timeframe was that?9 A So I would say probably about 2010 to 2013.

10 Q Okay.11 A Give or take a year.12 Q And you also are a member of the Ohio Lottery13 Commission; is that correct?14 A I am.15 Q And you are the current chair of that16 commission?17 A Correct.18 Q You have been a member of the Ohio Lottery19 Commission since 2006?20 A 2007.21 Q 2007. Okay. And who appointed you to the22 lottery commission?23 A At the time Governor Bob Taft. Then I was24 re-appointed by Governor Strickland and25 re-appointed by Governor Kasich.

Page 12

1 Q How long are those terms?2 A Three years.3 Q Your current position as director of the4 Cuyahoga County Board, I take it that is a5 nonpartisan position?6 A It's a bipartisan position.7 Q Okay. Fair enough. But it's a -- in your role8 as director you don't represent one party or9 the other?

10 A Correct.11 Q And I assume that was true in your role as12 deputy director, as well?13 A Correct.14 Q Let me ask you a little more about the Ohio15 Association of Elections Officials, and I'll16 try to shorten it by calling it OAEO, if I can17 remember the acronym correctly. During the18 time that you were a trustee what sorts of19 legislative initiatives did the OAEO put20 forward?21 A We discussed or put forward as main initiatives22 issues such as voting by mail, voting early,23 trying to make compromises with uniformity24 throughout the state. One of my main issues25 was electronic filing with campaign finance

Page 13

1 reports. That I took the lead on. Other2 issues dealt with basically legislation to3 clean up old language that was in the Code that4 no longer made sense or was no longer relevant5 to current practices and policies.6 Q And with respect to the changes in voting7 early, can you describe what changes the OAEO8 addressed while you were a trustee?9 A One of the changes were we were hoping to add

10 optical scan counties, we were hoping to be11 able to scan the ballots to perform in-house12 voting as opposed to really what they are as13 absentee ballots currently. So we wanted the14 voters to be able to scan them.15 We also talked about our support for vote16 by mail, you know, and to be able to send out17 applications to all voters. We were supportive18 of that. We were supportive of trying to come19 up with uniform hours that would be fair and20 equitable for each county and one wouldn't21 overlap the other. So that's pretty much it.22 Q Okay. And what happened with respect to the23 optical scan issue and early voting?24 A That is still pending. Yeah. No legislation25 has been passed to change that.



Exhibit G




5 (Pages 14 to 17)

Page 14

1 Q Okay. So in the next election, early voting2 will still be done with paper ballot?3 A Yeah. Correct. Let me clarify. It always4 would have been done with the paper ballot, but5 somebody who comes in to early vote, they're6 basically really voting absentee, they're just7 coming in. So what we were proposing is to let8 them actually scan their ballots that day, not9 put in an I.D. envelope and wait for it.

10 Q Okay. And then with respect to uniform hours,11 what were the proposals that were put forward12 for uniform hours, early voting hours by the13 OAEO?14 A I don't remember. I know they weren't as15 expanded as they are currently, they've evolved16 over the last, you know, years. So I don't17 remember what our actual proposal was at that18 point, but it wasn't as expansive as they are19 now.20 Q As I understand it, there was a uniform hour21 directive put forth by the Secretary of State22 in I believe 2014; is that correct?23 A That's correct.24 Q And was that directive an adoption of the25 proposal that the OAEO had made?

Page 15

1 A I'm pretty sure it is. At that point in time2 I'm pretty sure he mirrored what the3 association was proposing at the time because I4 think I recall him stating that at the annual5 conference.6 Q And as a trustee during the period that this7 was being considered, trustee of the OAEO, did8 you favor the proposal that the OAEO made with9 respect to uniform hours?

10 A Unfortunately I wasn't at the retreat that11 voted for those hours, so I wasn't a part of12 the actual official vote in endorsing those13 hours.14 Q Okay. So you didn't actually vote on the15 proposal --16 A Correct.17 Q -- one way or the other? Okay. Were you in18 favor of them?19 A I would say yes.20 Q And you mentioned a minute ago that the hours21 were more expansive than the OAEO had22 originally proposed. Is that as a result of23 the settlement of the NAACP settlement?24 A It ended up -- the result of the NAACP25 settlement ended up expanding even further than

Page 16

1 the expanded hours that the Secretary of State2 did previously in his directive, which mirrored3 at that point the association's, I think,4 recommendation at that point. So yes, it would5 have been more expansive, and now the NAACP is6 more expansive than that, as well.7 Q Okay. And one thing I should have mentioned at8 the beginning, because I think the question I9 just asked was not the greatest of questions in

10 terms of clarity. If I ask you anything that11 isn't clear, you know, feel free to please let12 me know and I'll attempt to rephrase it. Your13 answer was clear, my question just wasn't that14 great.15 Was the secretary's directive, was it16 more expansive than the proposal by the OAEO?17 A It is my -- it's my understanding that his18 original -- his original directive mirrored the19 OAEO's directive in 2014.20 Q Okay. Fair enough. And so the expansion that21 took place really was a result, it sounds like,22 of the NAACP settlement with the secretary; is23 that correct?24 A That's correct.25 Q You mentioned that also under consideration

Page 17

1 while you were a trustee of the OAEO is this --2 or changes to voting by mail. Can you describe3 those changes or proposed changes to me?4 A Well, it -- we bantered back and forth at the5 time that some counties did not like voting by6 mail, they did not like -- and I say "us,"7 Cuyahoga County, in terms of sending out vote8 by mail applications with return postage, and9 at one point I think we even had postage for

10 the ballot. A lot of counties couldn't afford11 that so there was a lot of consternation with12 Cuyahoga and some of the larger counties13 against some of the smaller counties.14 So we were -- we went back and forth on15 that to continue that practice. And it was16 then the end result that we would be in this17 task group, task force group that we would18 support that those counties could continue to19 send out vote by mail applications and pay for20 the postage for those applications and returns.21 Q And so was that proposal ultimately put forward22 -- well, strike that. Let me back up.23 So was there a proposed change from what24 had been the current practice by the -- did the25 OAEO propose a change with respect to the



Exhibit G




6 (Pages 18 to 21)

Page 18

1 ability of county boards to mail out absentee2 applications?3 A No. What it was was just basically support of4 that we would support those counties that5 wanted to continue that practice, and those6 counties that didn't want to or couldn't afford7 to didn't have to, but it was basically the8 uniform that we would continue the practice9 that the state was taking forth.

10 Q Okay. And at some point did the Secretary of11 State issue a directive regarding whether12 counties could continue to use their discretion13 as to whether they would send out absentee14 applications?15 A Yes.16 Q And can you describe that change?17 A The change was in lieu of a compromise that18 Secretary of State Husted and at the time19 Cuyahoga County Executive Ed Fitzgerald had20 issue with, and so they -- they didn't -- they21 discontinued the ability for counties to send22 out vote by mail applications in 2011 and the23 Secretary of State said that he would then24 issue those in 2012 from their office.25 So that is state legislation has changed

Page 19

1 that and so every two years a gubernatorial2 presidential general election, that the state3 based off of appropriate funding would send out4 the applications themselves, and counties,5 therefore, would not be able to mail them out6 in other election years.7 Q And you mentioned an acronym, I think a funding8 source, and I'm wondering if you could for the9 record state what that was? Maybe it wasn't an

10 acronym, but you said --11 A I said provide.12 Q Oh, provide.13 A Provide appropriate funding. That's what the14 legislation says.15 Q Thank you. I just misheard you.16 Did the OAEO discuss or consider any17 changes to what has been known as Golden Week18 during the time that you were a trustee?19 A Yes. They did, and I -- I don't want to be20 quoted on this 100 percent, but I'm pretty sure21 the compromise was that they would eliminate22 Golden Week if they could continue the practice23 of voting by mail, sending in vote by mail24 applications.25 Q So the proposal from the OAEO was to eliminate

Page 20

1 Golden Week in return for the county's2 retaining discretion to send out absentee3 ballots?4 MS. COONTZ: Objection.5 Q She or your attorney may make objections for6 the record, but unless they instruct you not to7 answer you can still answer the question. I'm8 going to though -- I just want to add one thing9 to the question, so I'm going to restate it.

10 Was the proposal for the compromise that11 you mentioned that Golden Week would be12 eliminated in exchange for the counties that13 wanted to retain discretion to send out14 absentee ballots; is that accurate?15 A They -- the discussion, all of that was coming16 together and was merging in all of that17 discussion of early voting and elimination of18 Golden Week and vote by mail, and the early19 hours was discussed at the same time. I can't20 recall if the end results since I was not at21 that final meeting, if the end result was a22 true compromise. I just know that it was23 discussed at the time and we were bantering it24 back and forth from county to county.25 Q Were you involved in any committee work,

Page 21

1 committee of the OAEO that considered these2 changes?3 A When I was originally appointed I was on the4 absentee task force.5 Q Okay. And what was the role of the absentee6 task force?7 A We basically talked about the uniformity issue,8 we talked about mailing out the applications,9 postage, paying for that and basically coming

10 up with a uniform policy for the association to11 adopt.12 Q One question I think I neglected to ask you at13 the beginning is when did you first become a14 member of the OAEO?15 A You did ask me that. Let's see. I think it16 was approximately around 2000 -- I might have17 been off by two years. Around -- I've always18 been a member of it. Since 2007 as deputy19 director I've been a member of the association,20 but as a trustee it was closer to 2010.21 Q Okay. So just to make sure the record is22 clear, this association, its membership is23 comprised of, I take it, deputy directors and24 directors of the county boards of elections in25 Ohio?



Exhibit G




7 (Pages 22 to 25)

Page 22

1 A As well as board members.2 Q As well as board members. Okay. And so -- and3 I take it it has an absentee task force; is4 that correct?5 A It did at the time.6 Q Okay. Is that no longer operative?7 A As far as I know it is not.8 Q Was the task force part of some kind of9 committee of the association, or just an

10 independent task force?11 A Independent task force.12 Q How many members, approximately, did the task13 force have?14 A Five.15 Q And do you recall in terms of the counties that16 were represented on the task force, who those17 counties were, which counties?18 A I do not recall all of the counties. I know19 Madison County had a representative, at the20 time Butler County did and Allen County did.21 Q And I guess Cuyahoga, as well?22 A Correct.23 Q And I take it you were the representative for24 Cuyahoga on the absentee task force?25 A Correct.

Page 23

1 Q Okay.2 MS. COONTZ: I'm sorry.3 Did you say Allen County?4 THE WITNESS: Allen County.5 MS. COONTZ: Thank you.6 Q Other than Cuyahoga were there any other large7 counties, large in terms of population on the8 task force?9 A Not that I recall.

10 Q And did the task force operate by voting? In11 other words, if they considered a proposal and12 decided whether to recommend it to the13 association, did they do that by taking a vote?14 A The task force, if I recall correctly, we just15 came up with a consensus that then we submitted16 to the trustees.17 Q Okay.18 A And then the trustees would have voted on it.19 Q And one of the proposals, I take it, that came20 out of the task force's work was a proposal to21 eliminate Golden Week; is that correct?22 A I cannot say for sure that that was -- that23 that was a proposal that came out of it. I24 know it was a discussion within, but I can't25 say for a fact that that was a proposal.

Page 24

1 Q And in terms of those discussions, what was the2 rational discussed for wanting to eliminate3 Golden Week?4 A Most people -- most counties, county officials5 thought it was unnecessary that the 28 days --6 by eliminating the 28 days. In the discussion7 they bantered back and forth different amount8 of days. Some wanted it even less than that,9 like 17 days. Some wanted it, you know, like

10 22 days. But so they -- the discussion was11 basically saying that it needed to be12 revisited, that there was plenty of time -- 2813 days or approximately around there was enough14 time for voters to vote, and so that most15 people thought it was unnecessary to have that16 -- extend that, that week, and for whatever17 reasons that it was just not utilized or18 needed.19 Q And what was your view on that?20 A I feel, and my view on it now or --21 Q Why don't we start with then and then if it's22 evolved we'll talk about that.23 A Probably the same. I think the -- I think the24 28 days is enough. Or the 21 days is enough25 for early voting. People have the opportunity

Page 25

1 to vote by mail, to vote within, you know, the2 voting time that -- it's a decent amount of3 time to provide the service to Cuyahoga County.4 Q The hurricane is competing with us today.5 So was there any discussion within the6 task force about the same-day registration7 aspect of Golden Week?8 A I don't think the -- it would have to be9 because if we were trying to reduce it, we

10 would have had to discuss the possibility of11 that it would then eliminate those people from12 registering and vote on the same day.13 Q And as I understand it under Ohio law, it's not14 permissible to register and vote within 30 days15 of the election day; is that correct?16 A That's correct.17 Q So if you eliminate Golden Week, essentially18 you eliminate the period of time during which19 it would be possible to actually have a20 same-day registration period?21 A Correct.22 Q And I think you said, I just want to make sure,23 you don't recall whether there was discussion24 about whether eliminating same-day registration25 would be a desirable thing to do or not within



Exhibit G




8 (Pages 26 to 29)

Page 26

1 this absentee task force?2 A I don't recall, but -- specifically, but I know3 we would probably -- it would have probably4 touched on it at some point, you know, because5 it would have been a change or would have had6 an effect by reducing the number of days, but I7 don't remember it being a major sticking point8 in terms of our discussions.9 Q And then kind of similar question to what I

10 asked you a minute ago when we were talking11 more generally about early voting, what was12 your view of how the desirability or lack of13 desirability of eliminating the same-day14 registration aspect of Golden Week?15 A I don't really have an opinion on that because16 it's not really a big factor for us in Cuyahoga17 County. There's a distinction between, you18 know, those that register -- newly register and19 vote as opposed to those that update their20 registration and vote. And so we have very21 little, you know, of those that are newly22 registered that vote in the big scheme of23 things.24 Q Okay. Do you recall in 2012 how many people25 registered and voted during Golden Week?

Page 27

1 A Ask you to clarify. You say newly registered?2 Q Thank you for that. I -- I first want to ask3 about all people who either newly registered or4 updated their registration. So let me -- I'll5 ask it again so it's clear.6 Do you recall how many people in Cuyahoga7 County either registered or updated their8 registration and voted during Golden Week in9 2012?

10 A There was approximately 9,000.11 Q And of that 9,000, how many people newly12 registered?13 A It was less than 500. I'm trying -- I'm14 thinking around 200 and something.15 Q Okay. Maybe we'll get some documents later and16 I know this is not a memory game or test, so we17 can get to that. But I just wanted to get a18 general sense for the --19 A You know, okay. The clarity here now is20 hitting. 9,000 people voted in 2012. Of that,21 close to 2,000 people either updated or --22 either updated or were newly registered. And23 of those, approximately 200 were new24 registered.25 Q Okay.

Page 28

1 A I'm sure that's the numbers.2 Q Okay. And you said that because so few -- and3 if I'm mischaracterizing let me know, but I4 think you said that because there was so few5 registrants during Golden Week, that it wasn't6 the same-day registration, wasn't a big factor7 in Cuyahoga County, is that a fair --8 A Sure.9 Q -- summary?

10 And so my question would be why is that?11 Why is -- why do you think the fact that there12 were so few new registrants means that it's not13 a big factor?14 A Well, I'm looking at the totality of the15 election from the total, you know, 650,00016 people that registered, or say 50,000 people17 that come in-house and vote early, that when18 there's, you know, when we're talking about19 200 people, I think that they have the20 opportunity to vote within the, at that time,21 35 days prior to the election, or now, 28 days22 prior to the election.23 And I'd like to make it clear though that24 by -- Golden Week did not eliminate the ability25 to register to vote. So the individuals were

Page 29

1 still able to register to vote and then they2 had all those days to vote, like everybody else3 did. So that doesn't prohibit -- it doesn't4 prohibit any newly person registering to vote.5 Anybody that they go out and gather, you know,6 a registration card from and they then get the7 ability to vote.8 Q Do you need any water or --9 A I'm fine right now. Thank you.

10 Q Okay. With respect to the, say, approximately11 1800 individuals who weren't newly registering12 during Golden Week, but were updating their13 registration, why wouldn't the elimination of14 Golden Week make it more difficult for those15 individuals to vote?16 A Because they still would be able to update17 their voter registration. Voter registration18 and early voting are two separate things. So19 they would be able to still update the20 registration based on 35 days out prior to the21 election.22 Q If they came to update their registration23 within the -- within the 30 days, during the24 current early voting period, would they be able25 to update their registration?



Exhibit G




9 (Pages 30 to 33)

Page 30

1 A No.2 Q So an individual who came to vote during Golden3 Week and, for instance, had moved and needed to4 update their address, if the same person came5 during the current early voting period, they6 would not be able to vote?7 A That's correct.8 Q And so if an individual didn't --9 A Let me clarify that.

10 Q Sure.11 A When you're talking about those that updated12 the registration, if they -- if they came after13 they can still vote provisionally. If they14 have moved, you know, if that was the reason,15 they could still vote within any time up and16 until election.17 Q Okay.18 A Okay.19 Q They can cast a provisional ballot?20 A Correct.21 Q And what would they need to do to get that22 provisional ballot counted? And let me just --23 so the record is clear, because there were a24 lot of kind of undefined days in there.25 So an individual who needed to update

Page 31

1 their address came during the current early2 voting period, I think you discussed that they3 could cast a provisional ballot, what would4 such a person as that need to do to have that5 provisional ballot counted?6 A They would have to show I.D., they would have7 to, you know, fill out the provisional envelope8 that they would have a printed name, a9 signature, and a date of birth. I'm sorry, not

10 the date of birth. The last four digits of the11 Social Security number. And now the current12 professional envelope has been amended to add13 the date of birth.14 Q And if they did all of that, the voter that --15 the category we have been discussing, are there16 any further conditions they would need to meet17 in order for their ballot to be counted?18 A They would -- we would just have to find them19 as a registered voter that lives in that20 precinct.21 Q Okay. Now, let me just go back to something we22 were discussing a minute ago. I think you had23 said it was your view that 28 days was enough24 days and that someone could still come and25 register prior to the 30 days and still vote

Page 32

1 early, as long as they did it within the2 existing early voting period; is that fair?3 A Correct.4 Q But a person who, say, registered now under5 current law, during the period that would have6 been Golden Week, under the prior law, they7 would have to come back to vote during the8 early voting period; is that fair?9 A Correct.

10 Q So essentially they would need to make two --11 they would have to make two stops in order to12 actually cast a ballot?13 A Or they could vote by mail.14 Q Fair enough. But assuming they were going to15 vote early, they would need to register on one16 day and then vote on another?17 A Correct.18 Q Okay. Let me go back to the OAEO and just ask19 you, I know you said you didn't recall whether20 the task force had actually specifically21 recommended eliminating Golden Week, but I take22 it at some point the Ohio Association of23 Elections Officials did actually make such a24 recommendation?25 A I am not -- I cannot recall.

Page 33

1 Q And do you recall whether you ever participated2 in a vote of whether or not to eliminate Golden3 Week?4 A To the best of my knowledge, no.5 Q Is that because that happened during that --6 you mentioned there was some type of retreat or7 something --8 A Right.9 Q -- where these decisions were finalized?

10 A Correct.11 Q And when approximately was that retreat, by the12 way?13 A It was right after I was director in the winter14 of I'd say 2013.15 Q Let me just ask you a couple more questions16 about the task force. Do you recall whether17 there were any African/Americans on the task18 force?19 A I cannot recall.20 Q And did you all meet in person, by the way? I21 should have asked you that first.22 A We did.23 Q Do you recall whether there were any minorities24 represented on the absentee task force --25 MS. COONTZ: Objection.



Exhibit G




10 (Pages 34 to 37)

Page 34

1 Q -- during the time period that you were2 considering the changes to Golden Week?3 MS. COONTZ: Objection.4 Asked and answered.5 Q The first question was with respect to6 African/Americans and the second question is do7 you recall if there were any minorities at all?8 So not limiting it to African/Americans.9 A No, I don't recall.

10 Q What is the leadership structure of the OAEO?11 A It is they rotate between parties. Every year12 there is a, you know, new president. So you13 have the president of the association, you have14 the first vice president, who's of the opposite15 party. Then you have the second vice16 president, who's of the opposite party of that17 person. And then you have the treasurer and18 the secretary. So it's a succession plan, you19 know, where the second vice president gets20 elected every year depending on what party is21 up.22 Q So they kind of move up through the -- I'm23 violating one of the rules here because I'm24 gesturing, which neither the camera nor the25 record can see, but I take it that they --

Page 35

1 essentially the first vice president replaces2 -- the next year the first vice president3 replaces what had been the president, and then4 the next year -- and the second vice president5 moves up to first vice president, is that how6 it works?7 A Correct.8 Q Okay. And so the presidency rotates between9 the two parties?

10 A Correct.11 Q And is there some type of an election that12 initially selects or ultimately selects these13 individuals?14 A They're selected by the trustees of their15 party.16 Q I'm sorry. When you say, "Trustees of their17 party," can you explain what you mean?18 A The trustees of the association.19 Q Okay.20 A So you have the officers, then you have the21 governing body, which is the trustees of the22 association, which is made up of an equal23 number of Republicans and Democrats. So when24 there's an election time for that particular25 party, the Republicans of that -- of the

Page 36

1 trustees would vote on their member and the2 Democrats would vote on their member.3 Q I'm sorry. One thing that I might have -- the4 trustees are made up of equal numbers of5 Democrats and Republicans; is that accurate?6 A Correct.7 Q And I take it you were one of the Republican8 trustees when you were a trustee?9 A Correct.

10 Q And how are the trustees selected?11 A They are appointed by the officers. Like by12 the president at the time. So the president13 and the first vice president of the opposite14 party basically get together and they appoint15 the trustees. And then -- yeah, that's --16 Q Okay. And is there any requirement in the17 association's bylaws, or whatever governing18 document that they use, for there to be some19 type of balance and representation between20 large population counties and the smaller21 population counties?22 A Yes, there is. I don't know what the formula23 is, but there is, you know, ratio of, you know,24 from large county versus small counties, as25 well.

Page 37

1 Q Is there -- are there issues on which the2 association votes as a preliminary body? In3 other words, are there issues in which all4 members vote regardless of whether they're a5 trustee or an officer?6 A All the members after the new -- after the new7 second vice president is elected by the8 particular party as a trustee, then the full9 membership will vote for that individual at the

10 end of the annual meeting.11 Q And what about for legislative proposals like12 the ones we were talking about earlier in the13 deposition, is that only done by the trustees14 or is there a preliminary decision that's made15 on those, as well?16 A I'm pretty sure to the best of my recollection17 it is just the trustees, that they're empowered18 to do that for the whole association. We don't19 go back out to, you know, the 500 people20 members and have a discussion and vote there.21 Q I want to turn to questions about the Cuyahoga22 County Board of Elections budget. In your23 declaration I think you said the Cuyahoga24 County budget, Board of Elections budget is25 approximately $14.5 million per year; is that



Exhibit G




11 (Pages 38 to 41)

Page 38

1 correct?2 A That's an average. Yes.3 Q Okay.4 A For example, next year, the presidential5 election, 16 million, and the 2017 election is6 13 million.7 Q So the budget for the Cuyahoga County Board of8 Elections for 2016 will be approximately9 $16 million?

10 A Correct.11 Q And for 2017 it'll be approximately12 $13 million?13 A Correct.14 Q And is that because there are -- there's less15 turnout during off -- non-presidential election16 years?17 A That is probably -- if you drill it down to,18 you know, to that level, yes. That's the root19 of it, and then it escalates from that.20 Q And tell me a little bit more about what you21 mean by that.22 A So with less turnout there's less in-house23 voting operations, we have less temporary24 people that we have to hire, less interest in25 vote by mail so then we have to pay for

Page 39

1 postage. It would be also less ballots that we2 have to print.3 So the root of it is due to the less4 turnout, and then also the other effect is the5 issues that are on the ballot. We tend to get6 more issues on the ballot in even number years7 that would create us to have additional ballot8 pages, and that creates an additional cost9 then.

10 Q What is the budget this year, actually?11 A This year's budget we will end up spending I12 think approximately 12.8 million.13 Q And in 2014 approximately what was the budget?14 A I believe 14 million.15 Q And in 2013 what was it approximately?16 A I can't recall.17 Q Do you recall what it was in 2012?18 A It was 17 million.19 Q And was the 2012 budget, was that different20 from the 2008 budget?21 A I can't recall because we had different --22 different issues then. We had new voting23 equipment in 2008. I don't know when the24 actual expenditures came out. If we paid the25 bills in 2008 or '9 that would affect the

Page 40

1 budget.2 Q Generally I take it the budget does this kind3 of going up and down, you know, on a yearly4 basis based on whether there's a presidential5 election or a -- I guess a federal election on6 the ballot?7 A Our budget is affected by a four-year election8 cycle. So we compare, you know, those -- those9 years against each other as we start with the

10 presidential election, then you have a11 municipal election the following year, which12 would incorporate the mayor's race in the City13 of Cleveland into it. Then the third year you14 have the gubernatorial election. And then the15 fourth year you have another municipal election16 but doesn't include the City of Cleveland into17 it. So we take all of those and compare those18 from a four-year election cycle on budget19 needs.20 Q And basically it sounds like from what you're21 saying before that it's roughly calibrated to22 the level of expected turnout in each of those23 cycles?24 A Correct.25 Q All right. I realize at the beginning I forgot

Page 41

1 to ask you, and I just want to know kind of2 briefly what you did prior to 1991 when you3 were -- became the finance director for the4 Ohio Secretary of State.5 A Prior to that I was a budget analyst under the6 Celeste administration for the Ohio Department7 of Development, and then I was a legislative8 liaison for the state and local government9 commission. And then prior to that I was the

10 executive director of the Mercer County11 residential services for the mentally retarded12 and developmentally disabled.13 Q And before that were you in college?14 A Before that I just received my Master's Degree15 and my undergraduate degree.16 Q And where did you get your undergraduate and17 Master's Degree?18 A Both at the University of Dayton.19 Q Okay. So I'll go back to the budget20 discussion. I just realized I had forgotten to21 -- the budget, the Cuyahoga County Board of22 Elections budget, where does that funding came23 from? Does it come from the county, the state,24 some combination of both?25 A No. It comes solely from the county.



Exhibit G




12 (Pages 42 to 45)

Page 42

1 Q Does the state contribute any funds towards2 election administration in Cuyahoga County?3 A I would answer that and say, no, but it doesn't4 mean that we have never received pass through5 funding for a specific thing such as electronic6 poll books that we're currently dealing with,7 or, you know, a stipend for training8 individuals online. So it's more of a9 specialty situation where they might have

10 hollow money for or grants for, but as far as11 election administration and applications, no.12 Q And i take it that's true of all the counties13 in Ohio, that their budgets are largely funded14 by county funds?15 A Correct.16 Q And I understand that the Cuyahoga County Board17 of Elections currently has a surplus; is that18 correct?19 A We do.20 Q And how much is that?21 A It's approximately 2 million.22 Q And is that -- how can those funds be used?23 A They will revert back to the general revenue24 fund of the county, but we will be using some25 of those funds for like end of the year capital

Page 43

1 expenses such as E poll books.2 Q And I take it from what you said about3 electronic poll books, that Cuyahoga County is4 intending to use electronic poll books in the5 2016 general election?6 A It is a preliminary intention. We are still in7 the pilot stages of testing them and working8 with various vendors to look at the possibility9 of implementing them sometime in 2016.

10 Q Okay. The $2 million surplus, that relates to11 fiscal year 2015?12 A Correct.13 Q Was there a surplus in 2014?14 A There was, but I don't recall what the amount15 was.16 Q Does $500,000 sound right?17 A It could be.18 Q And how about in 2013, do you recall if there19 was a surplus?20 A I do not.21 Q Has there been a time since you have been22 either deputy director or director when the23 Cuyahoga County Board of Elections has not had24 a surplus of funds?25 A No.

Page 44

1 Q Now, I understand from your declaration, and I2 will -- again, it's not a memory test, but3 there's some general questions I want to ask4 that I don't think you need it to have in front5 of you, but I will give it to you in a minute,6 but I just want to kind of move things along.7 First ask them generally.8 I understand from your declaration that9 in 2012 the Cuyahoga County Board of Elections

10 spent a little over $222,000 for the entire11 early in-person voting period, does that sound12 right?13 A That sounds right.14 Q And do you know what percentage of the budget15 that was in 2012?16 A I don't.17 Q But it would be whatever -- whatever the18 percentage of 222,000 out of 17 million is,19 correct?20 A Correct.21 Q And since I certainly wouldn't want to do that22 in my head I won't ask you to either.23 And I take it from your declaration that24 Cuyahoga County spent approximately -- well,25 $41,984 on Golden Week in 2012; is that

Page 45

1 accurate?2 A That's pretty close.3 Q I think there might have been another couple of4 thousand that was spent in connection with some5 costs related to Golden Week that was6 separately broken out?7 A Okay.8 Q We can take a look at that.9 A Okay.

10 Q So I take it that Golden Week, costs of Golden11 Week were not materially greater than any of12 the other weeks of the early voting period; is13 that fair?14 A That's fair.15 Q Okay. And would you agree that the cost of16 Golden Week in 2012, the roughly $42,000 or so,17 was a small percentage of the county's overall18 budget in 2012?19 A Correct.20 Q In 2014 there was no Golden Week, correct?21 A There was not.22 Q In 2008, if you know, were the percentages in23 terms of percentage cost of Golden Week to the24 whole budget of the county, were they roughly25 the same as in 2012?



Exhibit G




13 (Pages 46 to 49)

Page 46

1 A They were roughly the same.2 Q Do you know how much the board -- I'm sorry,3 I'm going to skip back to 2014 for a minute so4 it's probably confusing here because I realize5 I forgot a question about 2014.6 How much did the board spend on the early7 in-person voting period in 2014, approximately?8 A I don't recall. I know it was a lot less than9 in 2012 because we didn't have the amount of

10 temporary workers and stations open and that is11 the bulk of the cost.12 Q That's because the turnout in 2014 was a lot13 lower than 2012, a presidential year?14 A Correct.15 Q How much has the county budgeted for early16 in-person voting in 2016?17 A It would be roughly similar to what we did in18 2012.19 Q Has the county budgeted less money for early20 in-person voting due to the fact that under21 current law there is no Golden Week?22 A We did. We did not request funding for that23 additional week.24 Q If the county -- state and therefore the county25 were required to reinstitute Golden Week for

Page 47

1 the 2016 general election, would the costs of2 doing that be similar to what they were in3 2012?4 A Correct.5 Q And have you or has the Board of Elections done6 an analysis of comparing the -- let me ask a7 better question.8 Have you or the board done any analysis9 of what the cost of reinstituting Golden Week

10 would be in 2016?11 A No.12 Q I take it that you have some familiarity with13 the NAACP versus Husted lawsuit in your role as14 the director of the Board of Elections?15 A I -- limited knowledge of it.16 Q Okay. But you understand that it, among other17 things, it called for the reinstatement of18 Golden Week? That was one of the types of19 reliefs sought in the case?20 A Correct.21 Q Did you or the Board of Elections do any22 contingency planning in the event that the23 NAACP suit had continued, had not settled and24 been successful and Golden Week be ordered to25 be reinstated?

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1 A We did not.2 Q There was a time, I take it, in 2014 in which3 the lower courts had ordered that Golden Week4 actually be reinstated, correct?5 A Correct.6 Q And that was ultimately stayed by the Supreme7 Court?8 A Correct.9 Q During the time that there was a court order

10 that Golden Week be reinstated, did you do any11 planning to be able to do that?12 A No, we did not. Basically, you know, we stick13 to the same plan, we just would have upped it a14 week and decided to just move our time frames15 up by a week. So it wasn't really a difficult16 task.17 Q Okay. And so if that order had stayed in18 place, that's something that you could have19 accomplished? You could have reinstated20 golden --21 MS. COONTZ: Objection.22 Q Let me -- she can object for the record. I23 just want to make sure the record is clear.24 I'll ask the question, I'm sure she'll object25 again, and then you can answer.

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1 If the court order had stayed in place2 that Golden Week be reinstated, the court order3 from the NAACP v. Husted suit, is that4 something you would have been able to5 accomplish?6 MS. COONTZ: Objection.7 Q You can answer.8 A Yes.9 Q And if the court were to order as a result of

10 this lawsuit that Golden Week be reinstated in11 the 2016 general election, is that something12 that the Cuyahoga Board -- Cuyahoga County13 Board of Elections could accomplish?14 MS. COONTZ: Objection.15 A Based off of when that court decision is.16 Q If it were soon enough, not too close to the17 election I take it?18 A Yes.19 Q And is there a timeframe that you have in mind20 that would be too close to the election to be21 able to accomplish it?22 A I would say anything past January 1st would be23 too close for us to -- I wouldn't say24 accomplish it, but it would cause a lot of25 conflict and basically, you know, a lot of



Exhibit G




14 (Pages 50 to 53)

Page 50

1 changes in our planning purposes.2 Q Let me -- I'm going to switch gears a little3 bit and still talk about early voting, but a4 little less about budgeting. I take it that5 early voting in Ohio was first instituted in6 2005; is that correct?7 A That sounds close.8 Q Okay. Do you know why early voting was first9 adopted?

10 A It was my understanding that once the state did11 away with or discontinued no fault voting, you12 know, they were able to -- they basically -- in13 those years you had to be out of the county,14 you had to be in the hospital or in a nursing15 home to vote absentee, and once they did away16 with that, it then -- it created early voting.17 Q Was it in part in response to long lines in the18 2004 general election?19 A I don't know.20 Q Would you say that early in-person voting has21 been a success in Cuyahoga County?22 A I guess I would have to have you clarify what23 do you mean by success.24 Q Well, do you think it reduces lines on election25 day?

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1 A Yes.2 Q Do you think it reduces the cost of election3 day?4 A No.5 Q What do you if any -- let me ask it a different6 way.7 Are there problems in Cuyahoga County8 caused by early in-person voting?9 A I would say it costs more. It's more pressure

10 on the staff to do that and prepare for the11 election. I would say there are problems with,12 you know, in terms of preparing for it, you13 know, with our parking situation, security14 situation, but I would say it's limited to15 that.16 Q Okay. Have you, and when I say "you" I really17 mean, you know, as director, or deputy18 director, so really I'm including your office19 and the board --20 A Can I go back for a second?21 Q Sure.22 A When you said problems, I would hate for that23 to be misconstrued. I would say challenges of24 what I just stated.25 Q Fair enough. Thank you.

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1 Have you done any studies of the2 demographics of individuals who use early3 in-person voting? And here I'm including the4 whole period, and maybe let's focus it in on5 the period before Golden Week was eliminated.6 So the whole period of early in-person voting,7 have you done any studies on the demographics8 of who uses that period?9 A No.

10 Q And are you aware of any studies or information11 about who uses early in-person voting most in12 terms of demographics?13 A I'm not aware of any materials out there. I'm14 just aware of the media reports of how a15 particular party reports it.16 Q Okay. And what's your understanding of how17 they report it?18 A That the Democrats like to utilize in-house19 voting as opposed to Republicans.20 Q And do you think that's accurate?21 A Yes.22 Q So you think that Democrats utilize it --23 utilize early in-person voting would you say24 disproportionately to Republicans?25 A In Cuyahoga County?

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1 Q Yes.2 A In Cuyahoga County I would say yes for the fact3 that the early voting center, the Board of4 Elections is in downtown Cleveland. So I would5 say it's disproportionately that's where the6 Democrats live around so I think they utilize7 it because it's in their neighborhood. So I8 think that's -- yes, it's disproportionately9 used.

10 Q Okay. And is there a ratio component to that?11 Do you have information that African/Americans,12 for instance, use early in-person voting13 disproportionately to, say, white Americans?14 MS. COONTZ: Objection.15 A I don't have any --16 MS. COONTZ: Objection.17 Q You can answer.18 A I don't have any information on that.19 Q And do you perceive that to be also the, say,20 the narrative that you hear either in the media21 or from the Democratic party?22 A Yes.23 Q And do you think that narrative is accurate?24 MS. COONTZ: Objection.25 Asked and answered.



Exhibit G




15 (Pages 54 to 57)

Page 54

1 Q You can answer.2 A Yes.3 Q Let me just focus on Golden Week. During the4 period that Golden Week was in place, and maybe5 let's focus on the 2012 election, have there6 been any studies either done by the Board of7 Elections or that you are aware of of the8 demographics of who used Golden Week the most?9 A No.

10 Q Do you have the same perception that you have11 with respect to the early voting period --12 early in-person voting period -- I'm not going13 to be able to say this right. Let me start14 over.15 Do you have the same perception that the16 media and the Democratic party narrative that17 Democrats used Golden Week disproportionately18 when it was in effect?19 MS. COONTZ: Objection.20 Compound question. Calls for speculation.21 Q Is that your perception?22 A It is not the same as the previous question.23 Q Okay.24 A That because of the length of that and what we25 hear within news stories throughout the, you

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1 know, at that time 35 days of voting you would2 have that. I would not be able to give you an3 answer on that one -- for that particular week.4 Q Okay.5 A If somebody does it disproportionately to the6 other in terms of party or race.7 Q Okay. So with respect to race or party?8 A Correct.9 Q Okay. One of the things I want to do when we

10 take a break is try to print out some testimony11 I think you provided to the Presidential12 Commission on Elections. Do you recall having13 provided testimony to that --14 A I do.15 Q Okay.16 A I do remember, but I would have to look at it.17 Q Okay. And I'm not going to ask you much about18 it, but one thing that you may be able to19 answer without having it in front of you, I20 think as part of that you, in your role as21 director, called for vote centers I think; is22 that correct?23 A Correct.24 Q And can you describe for the record what the25 concept of a vote center is?

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1 A The concept was that if we would go away from2 -- the ultimate goal would be to go away from3 precinct based voting and have vote centers out4 in the county, so that we save the county5 thousands, if not millions, of dollars by not6 having to have that many precincts or have the7 precincts in the county, as well as we would8 reduce the number of poll workers we had, as9 well as we would be able to increase the

10 efficiency of voting in the county.11 Q And how would vote centers operate differently12 from say precincts? Are they bigger, are they13 staffed differently?14 A They would be much bigger. You would be able15 to -- you would be able to do a lot more with a16 lot less people. There would be people that17 would be seasoned and, you know, that would be18 experienced temporary workers throughout the19 county, as opposed to those that are just hired20 maybe work one or two times a year. And so21 they would be staffed by, you know, experienced22 personnel.23 Q And how would this impact, if at all, the --24 you're familiar with the terminology right25 church wrong pew?

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1 A Correct.2 Q And just for the record, that's when somebody3 goes to a polling location but ends up voting4 in the wrong -- in a multi-precinct polling5 location and they end up voting in the wrong6 precinct; is that a fair definition?7 A Yes. Correct.8 Q What effect would these voting centers have, if9 any, on the right church wrong pew issue?

10 A Well, the vote centers would eliminate that11 because we would do county wide voting at that12 point. We would have electronic poll books13 that could look up the database for the whole14 county. It would be more costly for us, but we15 would have ballot on demand printers that would16 be able to print the ballot of a particular17 voter, regardless of where they live.18 Q And this is an aside. I take it that if19 Cuyahoga County adopts electronic poll books,20 whether or not -- irrespective of the whole21 issue of vote centers, that that would address22 the wrong church -- sorry, right church wrong23 pew issue?24 A It would address it, but as we found out in a25 pilot we did a year ago, in 2014, because we



Exhibit G




16 (Pages 58 to 61)

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1 have paper ballots, somebody has to physically2 hand that voter the paper ballot and they still3 could do human error and give them the wrong4 ballot.5 Q Okay. So that could still be an issue even if6 the electronic poll books are adopted?7 A It should minimize that issue, but it still8 could be an issue.9 Q Okay. Whereas the vote centers, I take it,

10 they would eliminate it? Would the vote11 centers eliminate --12 A Yeah. In my opinion it would eliminate it13 because of the fact that we're actually --14 we're not going to be handing them a ballot15 from a ballot wall, from a table, we would be16 printing that ballot off the -- off the printer17 that would be tied into and directly connected18 to the electronic poll books. So the right19 precinct would appear on the ballot.20 Q Okay. And this was one of the suggestions I21 think that you had for the presidential22 commission that was studying the issue of long23 lines was that -- I'm sorry, just to be clear24 because I'm shifting back to the vote center25 issue, this was one of the recommendations you

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1 had was that at least in Cuyahoga County to2 adopt the vote center model?3 A It's one of the recommendations of food for4 thought items that I wanted, you know, I think5 needs to be vetted out and discussed and I6 think there needs to be a form for that.7 Q Okay.8 A That issue.9 Q And had you gotten as far in your thinking as

10 to how many vote centers Cuyahoga County would11 require, you know, given its size?12 A In my thinking, and you know, bantering that13 with other people, in a formal setting it was14 my original thought if we could have 11, one15 for each legislative district in the county.16 Q And I take it part of your proposal was that17 these vote centers would operate both as18 election day centers and as centers for early19 voting?20 A Correct.21 Q I'm going to turn to your declaration now. Did22 you need a break now or are you still good to23 go?24 A I'm still fine.25 Q All right. Just let me know.

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1 A Okay. Sure.2 MR. SPIVA: So I'm going3 to have this marked as Exhibit 1, or is it4 possible to mark it McDonald 1 because we're5 not doing consecutive. The reason I'm pausing6 is this was attached to the -- an expert report7 in this case and so it has an exhibit face page8 on it. I'm kind of tempted to rip off the --9 because it's going to cause confusion.

10 MS. COONTZ: Whatever. It11 doesn't matter.12 MR. SPIVA: You guys don't13 care about his declaration -- not declaration,14 but --15 MS. DOYLE: Right. As16 long as it's on the record and you're clear17 about it.18 Q Yeah. It was Exhibit 30 to the Sean Trende19 expert report. I'm going to take that page off20 just so it doesn't cause confusion later. And21 then I'll ask the court reporter if we can22 label this as McDonald Exhibit 1.23 - - - - -24 (Plaintiff's Exhibit No. McDonald 1 was marked.)25 - - - - -

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1 Q So I'm going to ask you questions about2 particular parts of this, not the whole thing,3 but I don't know if you want to take a minute4 to just look at it to --5 A Okay.6 Q -- satisfy yourself that that is the7 declaration that you submitted in this case.8 All set?9 A Sure.

10 Q Let me just ask you first, is this the11 declaration that you submitted in connection12 with this case?13 A Yes, it is.14 Q Okay. And who drafted the declaration?15 A I did.16 Q Did you do the first draft?17 A When you say drafted --18 Q Like whose computer was it initially on?19 A It was mine.20 Q And this is similar to the declaration that you21 submitted in the NAACP versus Husted suit?22 A It was, I think.23 Q And did you draft that one, as well?24 A I did.25 Q Did you do the first draft of that one?



Exhibit G




17 (Pages 62 to 65)

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1 A I did.2 Q How did you come to submit a declaration in3 this case? Sorry. Go ahead.4 A Okay. I'm trying to think the first one. This5 one I typed out solely myself. The other one I6 think was more that I was -- I was answering7 questions on the phone and it was drafted in8 the Attorney General's office.9 Q Okay.

10 A I'm not positive, but I do think there was that11 difference.12 Q Okay. And how did you come to submit a13 declaration in this case?14 A I was asked by the Attorney General's office.15 Q Who asked you?16 A I think Sarah Pierce.17 Q And when did you have a discussion with her?18 MR. DOYLE: For this case19 or the NAACP case?20 MR. SPIVA: For this case.21 Yeah. Thanks.22 A I really don't recall a date on that. I mean,23 I submitted it September 17th, so it was24 probably a couple weeks before that.25 Q Okay. And did you have any discussions with

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1 anyone else at the AG's office other than2 Miss Pierce about this case?3 A I did. A gentleman. But I can't recall his4 name.5 Q Was it a Mr. Voigt, Steve Voigt?6 A Yes.7 Q And what did Mr. Voigt say to you?8 A Basically that they were wanting me to provide9 a declaration that was similar to what I stated

10 in the NAACP declaration and then, too, if I11 could provide answers to a few other questions12 to add to this.13 Q Okay. Anything else that you can recall?14 A No.15 Q Do you recall what you said to him?16 A I said, "Sure."17 Q And then with respect to Miss Pierce, same18 question, do you recall what she said to you?19 A No, I don't recall.20 Q Okay.21 A And I don't know if I actually talked to her in22 the second case. I might be getting that23 confused with the first one.24 Q And let me step back to or let me step to the25 NAACP versus Husted case. Who approached you

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1 about submitting a declaration in that case?2 A Sarah did.3 Q Okay. And did you have a discussion with her4 about that?5 A I did.6 Q Okay. And what did -- describe that discussion7 for me.8 A Basically we -- talking about scheduling more9 than anything, and that she would schedule a

10 time and then to ask me a litany of questions11 and basically -- and then she asked me a litany12 of questions that I responded to.13 Q Anything else you can recall?14 A No.15 Q All right. And if you can recall about what16 you said to her?17 A In terms of, you know, basically -- whatever18 answers I gave her is basically what I said.19 Q Okay. Let me just turn your attention to20 paragraph -- sorry, paragraph 11 of the21 declaration you submitted in this case, which22 has been marked as McDonald 1. And I just have23 one question which is -- because we really24 already discussed this I think earlier, but are25 those accurate numbers in paragraph 11 of your

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1 declaration?2 A Yes, they are.3 Q And the same with paragraph 12 of the4 declaration, are the numbers concerning the5 number of voters who cast early in-person votes6 during Golden Week in 2012, are those accurate?7 A Yes, they are.8 Q Let me ask you about paragraph 13, and there's9 a sentence, it's the third sentence in the

10 paragraph where you say, "Voting by mail in11 Cuyahoga County is our trademark program and12 has been very successful." Can you describe13 for me what you meant by that?14 A Yes. We were one of the early counties, if not15 the first county, to really embrace vote by16 mail in terms of our design, our appeal to the17 public through PSA's and through marketing, as18 well as redesigning the vote by mail19 application that the state put out. We put it20 into a nicer piece. And what we did up here at21 the time, we would mail it out to every22 registered voter -- every registered voter that23 had an election before them. So it wasn't just24 tailor made for the November general elections.25 We do it for any special election, primary



Exhibit G




18 (Pages 66 to 69)

Page 66

1 election, as well.2 So the people of Cuyahoga County got used3 to receiving that and knew not only it was4 election time, but it gave them the opportunity5 of voting by mail. And we also then would pay6 for their vote -- the return envelope of the7 vote by mail application.8 Q And that -- the paying for the return envelope9 and sending it out, I take it that is no longer

10 permissible under the current directives under11 the law?12 A Correct.13 Q And when did that change again?14 A 2011.15 Q Do you have any information concerning the16 demographics of people who use voting by mail?17 Absentee ballots voting by mail?18 A It's uniformly used by the majority of the19 county in terms of demographics. I don't -- I20 mean, the only thing, and I've opined on with21 staff and other people in the media I think22 before, is that say dealing with demographics23 is I've noticed that the African/American24 community is more likely not to utilize vote by25 mail because they have the fear factor of it

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1 being delivered to us and, therefore, we need2 to educate them more in the community that we3 do -- that we do get the vote by mail and we do4 count them, the first count, in order to give5 them a comfort level.6 Q And what efforts have been undertaken to do7 that, to educate the community, the8 African/American community about absentee9 ballots and the fact that they will be counted?

10 A Our community outreach department is out in the11 African/American community, you know, trying to12 tout, you know, alleviate their concerns and13 refute this myth that the votes aren't counted.14 So we do it that way and we do it through our15 corporate partners, and basically like putting16 out e-mails, press releases and so forth in our17 outreach.18 Q I understand that as a result of changes that I19 believe were brought about by directives, or a20 directive of the Secretary of State, that21 people who are deemed as inactive voters don't22 receive the absentee ballots, the applications,23 rather, you know, from the Secretary of State?24 A That is my understanding too. What he has done25 was put it to all active registered voters and

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1 those voters that voted in the last two2 elections. And so not inactive voters.3 Q In other words, if there is a voter who didn't4 vote -- I'm sorry, when you say the last two5 elections, is that statewide elections or any6 election?7 A Statewide elections. So in 2014 he went back8 to those that voted in the presidential9 election.

10 Q Okay.11 A I think it was just limited to the previous12 election of that one.13 Q Are there any statewide elections during odd14 years in Ohio?15 A There could be. It could have state issues16 like this year we have three state issues and17 that's a statewide issue -- election.18 Q So if someone didn't vote, say, in the election19 that's going to happen I guess in a few days,20 and they hadn't voted in 2014, they would not21 receive an absentee ballot application for the22 2016 general election?23 A If he limits it to -- if he limits it to just24 to the gubernatorial election that would be25 correct. But I'm pretty sure, I'm getting a

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1 little confused here, that we go back to the2 previous presidential election. When I said3 the last two, I meant even year elections. So4 when you look back at -- so 2016, it's my5 understanding, that we'll look back if you6 voted in 2014 gubernatorial and 2012.7 Q Okay.8 A That is my thought on it.9 Q Okay. Give me just a second. I'm cutting out

10 things that we've already talked about, so.11 If the combination of statutes and12 directives did not prohibit Cuyahoga County13 from sending out absentee ballots, would it do14 so -- would it resume doing so --15 MS. COONTZ: Objection.16 Relevance and speculation.17 A That would be a policy from the board that they18 would have to opine upon.19 Q Okay. Let me ask you about paragraph 14. And20 you mentioned that in your second sentence21 here, "In 2012, for example, we had 34 percent22 of our turnout vote by mail, compared to 723 percent who voted early in-house," correct?24 A Yeah.25 Q Do you recall the relative number of people who



Exhibit G




19 (Pages 70 to 73)

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1 voted early in-person in 2012 as compared to2 2008?3 A It was pretty similar --4 Q Okay.5 A -- in 2012 to '8. '12 actually had less though6 than '8, but it was pretty comparable7 percentage. I think you could break it down to8 almost that same percentage.9 Q But were the actual numbers, and I can show you

10 a document if you need to refresh, but the11 actual numbers of people using early in-person12 voting, did that increase substantially in 201213 over 2008?14 A No, it actually decreased. And we're talking15 about in-house voting, correct?16 Q Correct. Yeah.17 A There was 45,000 I think in 2012 and 50,000 in18 2008.19 Q A minute ago we were talking about the -- you20 were discussing the perception in the21 African/American community or the resistance to22 using voting by mail. Do you have any23 information about the demographics of the --24 strike that. Let me ask a different question.25 In 2012, 34 percent of the turnout was

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1 vote by mail. I take it from your earlier2 testimony that that would have been3 disproportionately white Americans as opposed4 to African/Americans?5 MS. COONTZ: Objection.6 Calls for speculation.7 A I have -- I have no evidence to answer that. I8 have no research on that or I did not do any9 kind of analysis on that.

10 Q Okay. In paragraph 15 you mention that, "The11 2012 general election was a successful12 in-person voting election and that there were13 some lines during the final week in the early14 voting, but it was what we anticipated." Can15 you describe for me in anymore detail how long16 the lines were during the final weekend in17 2012?18 A Sure. The final weekend we had in 201219 probably an hour wait in line. Maybe a little20 more at certain peak times due to the fact it's21 expected. I mean, it's -- they come -- the22 community comes down for that. We have a23 festive, you know, atmosphere. Tents up and we24 have the bands playing and all different kinds25 of celebrities stop in there. So it's like

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1 from the moment the doors open there's already2 a line there.3 So, and in 2012 we had 48 stations, I4 think voting stations with them -- with5 temporary employees that were basically able to6 assist them. So the line would move pretty7 quickly. We didn't have any complaints. They8 knew what they were coming for. It wasn't like9 somebody came down and said, wow, there's a

10 line here of 500 people. You know, they were11 bussing them in for that.12 Q And this is particularly during that final13 three days that we're discussing right now; is14 that right?15 A It was basically that kind of -- what I'm16 talking about right now is like the Saturday17 and Sunday prior to election.18 Q Okay.19 A Monday it went back to normal even though it20 was a steady flow, but we didn't have long21 lines because they had longer hours to come in22 and vote.23 Q And similarly, were there long lines at the24 beginning of the early voting period in 2012?25 A No, nothing of this level.

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1 Q Okay. And with respect to the final three2 days, are you familiar with the term soles to3 the polls?4 A Correct.5 Q And did that play a role in the long lines that6 you saw in the final three days of the 20127 election?8 A In my opinion it has a small effect. I think,9 you know, regardless -- it's overrated. You

10 know, those people are going to come and vote11 anyway. I mean, those long lines we had a lot12 of people voting there. Soles to the polls,13 they bring -- they bus down people, but it's14 not to the magnitude that people think it is.15 So if soles to the polls wasn't there, we still16 would have had that kind of participation the17 final weekend.18 Q Okay. And did you -- and you mentioned in your19 declaration though that this was -- this was20 something that was kind of built into the21 board's expectations, the board was expecting22 to have a surge kind of in the last three days;23 is that correct?24 A Correct.25 Q Did you observe anything about the demographics



Exhibit G




20 (Pages 74 to 77)

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1 of the people who were coming in the final2 three days?3 A I need some clarity.4 Q I mean, was it predominantly black,5 predominantly white?6 A It was mixed. Yeah. Mixed.7 MR. SPIVA: How close are8 we to the end of tape?9 VIDEOGRAPHER: We have five

10 minutes.11 MR. SPIVA: If you can12 give me a two-minute warning, we'll take a13 break.14 Q Pardon the pause, but I'm skipping through a15 lot of stuff that we've already talked about16 basically.17 A Okay.18 Q So in the end it will save some time.19 Let me ask you about paragraph 22 of your20 declaration. There you talk about I guess the21 new information requirements on provisional and22 absentee ballots; is that accurate?23 A Yes.24 Q And I guess on the information that is required25 now, since the changes in the law includes

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1 address, is that one of the things?2 A That is.3 Q That didn't used to be required?4 A Correct.5 Q Okay. Date of birth, that's another change?6 A Correct.7 Q That's required now, but wasn't before?8 A Correct.9 Q The final four digits of the Social Security

10 number, is that also a change from prior law?11 A It's my understanding that that was already set12 in law.13 Q Okay. Anything else that was added other than14 the address and the date of birth?15 A Not that I'm aware of.16 Q Okay. In your declaration you indicate that17 requiring that information helps distinguish18 between voters with the same name; is that19 right?20 A That's correct.21 Q Was there an issue in identifying voters22 previously when they didn't have the same name?23 A There has been issues, especially with the24 provisional voting, if they didn't have -- and25 like didn't have the address there we will not

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1 be able to tell if two individuals from the2 same -- with the same name who was the voter,3 you know, at the same address.4 So by this it gives you a little bit more5 ability to root down to really find the person6 and make sure you have the correct voter.7 Q Okay. What -- prior to the change in the law8 that required the address, when you had a9 situation like that where someone hadn't put

10 their address down, what steps, if any, did the11 board take to try to determine whether -- to12 identify the voter?13 A We would -- we would, you know, we would start14 with just the county wide search, you know, try15 to get a name match. Then from the name match16 we would try to look at the precinct and17 location match, and then basically, you know,18 hopefully we had the address and then were able19 to vibe through the previous voter register20 database is to match the current signature of21 that provisional ballot or absentee22 identification envelope to what's in the voter23 registration system.24 Q And if you were able to do that and actually25 determine a match, I take it that that

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1 provisional ballot would count?2 A Correct.3 Q Okay. Under the law as it was before the4 changes?5 A Correct.6 Q Okay. And I realize I -- give me just one sec.7 What is the statute that created the8 requirement that address and date of birth9 information has to be placed on provisional

10 ballots?11 A The current one?12 Q Yes.13 A I'm not -- I don't recall offhand.14 Q Okay. I just wanted to -- one sec. I just15 want to make sure the record is clear because I16 realize I kept saying the changes, and that may17 be a little unclear.18 MR. SPIVA: You know, why19 don't we -- we're probably getting pretty close20 to the tape end so let's take a little break.21 THE WITNESS: Okay.22 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going23 off record. The time is 11:05. We're off the24 record.25 (Recess taken.)



Exhibit G




21 (Pages 78 to 81)

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1 (Ms. Pierce enters proceedings.)2 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on3 the record. This is the beginning of media 24 and the time is 11:16.5 BY MR. SPIVA:6 Q Okay. I think, Mr. McDonald, when we broke we7 were talking about the new information8 requirements and I think we were focusing in on9 provisional ballots. And I just wanted to

10 clarify the record because I was referring to11 changes in the law and I just want to clarify12 what I was referring to, which is that SB 216,13 which was enacted, created requirements for14 date of birth and address information on the15 provisional ballot envelope. Is that your16 understanding?17 A That is correct.18 Q Okay. And so when I was referring in my19 questioning to changes in the law, at least20 with respect to provisional ballots, that is21 what I was referring to. I assume that22 wouldn't change your answers in any respect?23 A No.24 Q And I think where we were is you had mentioned25 prior to that change, prior to SB 216, the

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1 county went through processes when it had a2 provisional ballot that it -- where it3 couldn't, for instance, where there were two4 people with the same name to try to find the5 address and verify that the voter was6 registered and was the correct voter; is that7 accurate?8 A Yes.9 Q And in those instances where the county could

10 verify that it was a registered voter entitled11 to vote in the precinct that they were voting12 in prior to SB 216, that provisional ballot13 would count, correct?14 A Correct.15 Q Since the change created by SB 216, if the16 address, for instance, is missing on the17 provisional ballot, that ballot can't be18 counted, correct?19 A That's correct.20 Q And it can't be counted even if you can verify21 that it is a lawfully registered voter?22 A Correct.23 Q In turning to SB 205, which my understanding24 was the bill that was enacted that created25 changes in the information requirements for

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1 absentee ballot envelopes, is that your2 understanding?3 A I would have to see it, you know, but I'll go4 with it.5 Q Okay.6 A It sounds familiar.7 Q Just to make it easy, I mean, you understand8 that there were changes in the law that created9 a requirement that address and date of birth

10 information be put on the absentee ballot11 envelope?12 A Yes.13 Q Okay. And if the absentee ballot doesn't14 include the envelope or the absentee ballot15 doesn't include address and date of birth,16 since those changes in the law, which I'll17 represent to you is SB 205, that ballot would18 not be counted, correct?19 A If -- if a voter never -- what we would do is20 send out a challenge notice to that voter to21 let them know that they are missing a piece of22 information and they can correct their I.D.23 envelope. If they never did correct it, it24 would not be challenged.25 Q Would not be counted?

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1 A Would not be counted. Right.2 Q But if they did come and provide the3 information within the prescribed time, it4 would be counted?5 A Correct.6 Q And the prescribed time is seven days?7 A Yes.8 Q And that is a shortening of the cure period9 from what had been the case prior to the change

10 in the law? It had been ten days?11 A Correct.12 Q And it was then seven days; is that correct?13 A Correct.14 Q With respect to provisional ballots, stepping15 back to that for a minute, is there any similar16 type of notice that is provided to the voter if17 they do not include the new information, either18 address or date of birth?19 A There isn't from the county level, but the20 state provides a provisional voting hotline21 that they can call to see if their provisional22 vote was counted.23 Q But there wouldn't be a notice that would be24 sent out from either -- let me start -- from25 the county there wouldn't be a notice sent out



Exhibit G




22 (Pages 82 to 85)

Page 82

1 to say, your provisional ballot is defective2 because you haven't provided this --3 A No.4 Q -- address information?5 Okay. But in the case of an absentee6 ballot, there would be a notice sent out from7 the county stating that there's something8 missing in terms of address or date of birth9 from the ballot envelope?

10 A Yes.11 Q And I take it with respect to provisionals, the12 same is true that the state doesn't send13 anything to the voter to say that your14 provisional ballot is defective?15 A Correct.16 Q Do you know why there's a difference in the way17 absentee and provisional ballots are treated in18 that respect?19 A I would just be speculating. You know, there's20 probably multiple reasons you would provisional21 -- a person if they don't provide their address22 and just sign and put their name on it, how23 would we ever find out who they are. You know,24 at least we have it bar coded on the I.D.25 envelope from the original voter registration

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1 day for the absentee voters, but I don't, you2 know, I would have to really look at it and3 give you a thorough answer.4 Q And why is it that you have it from the5 original application for the absentee voter?6 A Because they submitted an application, and then7 we would have matched that application up with8 their actual voter registration I.D. number.9 Q And their absentee ballot application actually

10 had to provide that information, address11 information and date of birth information; is12 that correct?13 A It is -- it's not a requirement, but it is on14 our forms.15 Q Okay. I'm going to have another document16 marked as an exhibit, so if we could mark this17 McDonald 2. Thanks.18 - - - - -19 (Plaintiff's Exhibit No. McDonald 2 was marked.)20 - - - - -21 Q Let me ask you -- have you had a chance to look22 at it?23 A Yes.24 Q Okay. I just have a couple of questions.25 First, there appears to be the first page of

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1 this, which has been marked McDonald 2 and it2 has a Bates number, SEC002847, and then it goes3 through SEC2848, which means that it was4 produced to us from the Secretary of State.5 The first page appears to be two e-mails. The6 bottom one it appears to be from you, says,7 Pat McDonald, sent Tuesday, November 4th, 2014,8 to Matthew Damschroder, subject early voting9 report, and it says, "Matt, here is the early

10 voting report comparing previous elections to11 November, 2014 general election. Thanks, Pat."12 First of all, does this appear to be an13 e-mail that you forwarded to Mr. Damschroder?14 A It appears to be that.15 Q You don't have any reason to think that it's16 not, you know, a genuine e-mail -- an actual17 e-mail that you sent?18 A No.19 Q And just for the record, the top e-mail appears20 to be an e-mail from Mr. Damschroder forwarding21 your e-mail onto Ms. Halle Pelger. And just22 one question. Why were you forwarding this23 information to Mr. Damschroder?24 A I can't recall.25 Q Okay. Do you recall whether he requested it?

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1 A I can't recall. I could have just, you know,2 arbitrarily sent him this, or he could have3 requested it, you know, to be truthful.4 Q What does the attachment show, spreadsheet5 attached titled, "In House Voting Comparison6 Primary and General Elections, Cuyahoga County7 Board of Elections 2008 through 2014"?8 A I think it appears to be a snapshot of all our9 voting history for early voting that can

10 compare from, you know, 2008 to 2014 based off11 of days out. And then it indicates the hours12 that we were open for extended voting.13 Q And I take it from this one can determine how14 many people had voted during Golden Week in the15 various elections that occurred between 200816 and 2014 in Cuyahoga County?17 A Yes.18 Q Let me -- and of course you can also -- well,19 you could tell how many people voted during the20 final three days of the early voting period, as21 well, from the attachment?22 A Yes.23 Q I'm going to mark another document as24 McDonald 3.25 - - - - -



Exhibit G




23 (Pages 86 to 89)

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1 (Plaintiff's Exhibit No. McDonald 3 was marked.)2 - - - - -3 MS. COONTZ: What's the4 Bates number?5 MR. SPIVA: It's -- the6 Bates number for the document, McDonald 3, is7 SEC003599 to 3600.8 Q And Mr. McDonald, just let me know when you're9 ready for me to ask questions.

10 A Okay.11 Q All right. So this appears to be, again, two12 e-mails. The bottom one from Inajo Davis13 Chappell, appears to have been sent to a number14 of people, including yourself, there's a15 [email protected]. That's your16 e-mail address?17 A Yes, it is.18 Q Okay. And again, does this appear to be an19 e-mail that was sent to you and others on20 July 13th, 2012?21 A Yes, it does.22 Q Okay. And Ms. Chappell, she is a member of the23 Cuyahoga County Board of Elections?24 A Yes, she is.25 Q And she was, I take it, a member in 2012?

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1 A Yes.2 Q At this time you were the deputy director of3 the Board of Elections, correct?4 A Correct.5 Q And Ms. Chappell, she's the only6 African/American member of the Board of7 Elections?8 A Yes.9 Q Was she the only African/American member in

10 2012?11 A Yes.12 Q What is she expressing concern about in this13 e-mail? Let me ask you --14 MS. COONTZ: Can I see the15 copy?16 Q Does it appear that Miss Chappell is expressing17 concern over a decision to eliminate extended18 hours for early voting in Cuyahoga County in19 2012?20 A It does appear that.21 Q Do you recall this at all?22 A I do not.23 Q And you see on the bottom paragraph she says,24 "On a final note, I would be remiss if I did25 not express my deep concern about the disparate

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1 impact that this ruling will have on thousands2 of African/Americans and other voters in3 Cuyahoga County who have chosen and have4 historically come to rely on extended hours for5 in-house, in-person voting. I observed many of6 the persons who voted in-house, in-person7 during the 2008 presidential election. They8 were primarily people of color and they will be9 significantly affected by the decision to

10 eliminate extended in-person voting hours."11 Is that -- is that an accurate reading of12 what Ms. Chappell stated in her e-mail to you13 and others in this e-mail?14 A Correct.15 Q And do you have any recollection of the context16 of that?17 A I do.18 Q And can you tell me what that is?19 A It's basically that it was that the board voted20 to eliminate or to reduce extended hours, and21 it was a tie vote between the two Republicans,22 two Democrats, and this is her -- this is the23 Democrats letter that goes down to the24 Secretary of State to break the tie.25 Q And I take it that the secretary at that time

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1 was Mr. Husted?2 A Yes.3 Q And I take it he broke the tie by eliminating4 the extended hours?5 A Correct.6 Q And did -- this communication, this e-mail from7 Miss Chapelle in addition to going to you and8 other members of the Cuyahoga Board of9 Elections also went to a number of people in

10 the Secretary of State's office?11 A That's correct.12 Q And did you have any discussion with anybody in13 the Secretary of State's office at that time14 about Ms. Chappell's concerns?15 MS. COONTZ: I'm going to16 object to this entire line of questioning.17 This relates to hours in 2012. Uniform hours18 are now in effect.19 Q You can still answer it.20 A Not that I recall.21 Q And do you recall having any discussions with22 Miss Chappell about it?23 A No.24 Q I'll give you what will be marked as McDonald25 Exhibit 4.



Exhibit G




24 (Pages 90 to 93)

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1 - - - - -2 (Plaintiff's Exhibit No. McDonald 4 was marked.)3 - - - - -4 Q While you're reading it I'll just note that5 McDonald 4 has the Bates number SEC005297,6 produced by the Secretary of State's office.7 A Okay.8 Q All right. So this appears to be two e-mails,9 one at the bottom is from I believe you, it's

10 got an e-mail address [email protected]. I11 take it that that's your personal e-mail12 address?13 A Correct.14 Q Okay. And it is sent to [email protected],15 [email protected], it's dated16 October 10th, 2012. Was this an e-mail that17 you sent to Mr. Husted and Mr. Damschroder?18 A I assume so.19 Q And the subject is Cuyahoga County. First, let20 me ask you, do you communicate with the21 Secretary of State's office through your22 personal e-mail?23 A No. It's through my business.24 Q And the e-mail says that, "3,748 people came in25 and voted today. This totals 9,050 for Golden

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1 Week, which is a 26 percent increase over 20082 (without having a weekend). So much for the3 voter suppression the Democrats tout."4 So first of all, I take it that is it5 accurate to say from -- that the percentage --6 that the number of people voting who had joined7 Golden Week in 2012 was a 26 percent increase8 over 2008?9 A According to what I wrote in this, yes.

10 Q You have no reason to doubt the accuracy? And11 what were you referring to when you said, "So12 much for the voter suppression that the13 Democrats tout"?14 A I -- I'm guessing at that time, we're probably15 talking about eliminating Golden Week16 potentially. Or no, that wouldn't have been17 right. 2012. Whatever I'm comparing is that18 we had a good week, you know, of voting and19 registering cards today, so it must be I'm20 speculating that it was probably that people21 were -- the Democratic party or members of the22 Democratic party were touting about voter23 suppression with boards of elections, so forth.24 So I'm countering those claims.25 Q And noting that Golden Week was -- there was a

Page 92

1 big increase in the use of Golden Week in 20122 over 2008?3 A Correct.4 Q Okay. And did Mr. Husted or Mr. Damschroder5 request that you provide them this information?6 A No.7 Q But it's fair to say that as of October 12th --8 October 10th, 2012, they were aware that there9 was an increase in use of Golden Week in

10 Cuyahoga County between 2008 and 2012?11 A I would agree with that.12 Q The second sentence in your e-mail is, "Also,13 we received 10,798 voter registration cards14 today. It has been a record amount of voter15 registration cards over the last six weeks,16 much greater than 2008."17 So do I understand correctly that you18 reporting to Mr. Husted and Mr. Damschroder19 that during Golden Week that on this day,20 Golden Week, October 10th, 2012, that you21 received 10,798 voter registration cards?22 A Over the previous six weeks.23 Q Okay. Because I guess -- maybe I misunderstood24 your e-mail because it says, we received 10,79825 registration cards today.

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1 A No. You're correct. I didn't see the word2 today. Yeah. So if I wrote that we would have3 received 10,798 that day, and then it has been4 a record amount over the previous six weeks.5 Q And in fact, much greater than in 2008?6 A According to what I wrote.7 Q And it appears that Mr. Damschroder -- first of8 all, who is Mr. Damschroder?9 A He was the chief of elections at the time for

10 Secretary of State Husted.11 Q Okay. And Mr. Damschroder appears to forward12 your e-mail onto a number of people,13 [email protected]. Who is Matt Masterson?14 A He used to be the former assistant Secretary of15 State.16 Q Was he the assistant Secretary of State at this17 time in 2012?18 A No, I don't think he was. He had another role19 with the Secretary of State. I think more of a20 technology role.21 Q And then also he forwards it onto Halle Pelger22 at her hot mail account. Was Miss Pelger23 Mr. Husted's chief of staff at that time?24 A No. Scott Borgemenke was. I don't know who25 Halle is that I can recall.



Exhibit G




25 (Pages 94 to 97)

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1 Q He also forwards it to Maggie Ostrowski. Who2 is she?3 A She was in his communications office.4 Q And Matt McClelland, who is he?5 A He's the chief of communications.6 Q And Scott Borgemenke, apologies for his name,7 but I assume you said he was the chief of staff8 for Mr. Husted?9 A Correct.

10 Q Obviously the Mr. Husted we're referring to is11 the Secretary of State of Ohio?12 A Correct.13 Q Were you providing this information as part of14 your official role as, at that time, I guess15 deputy director of the Board of Elections?16 A I don't know what's the difference between that17 or another role. I'm just basically giving18 them the information of how well we were doing19 up in Cuyahoga County.20 Q Well, just because of the personal e-mail21 accounts. I thought maybe this was something22 outside of your official duties.23 A Well, I guess, I mean, I don't know, again, how24 to answer that because I'm friends with both of25 them. So, I mean, it could have been outside

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1 of official duty or it could be an official2 duty. I would say in this capacity it was3 probably with doing it to the personal accounts4 that it could be considered as personal.5 Q Okay. When you say, "Both of them," you mean6 Mr. Husted and Mr. Damschroder, that you're7 friends with both of them?8 A Yes.9 Q How long have you known Mr. Husted?

10 A Gosh, I have -- known him personally or known11 of him?12 Q How about known him personally.13 A Okay. That I would say probably since 2005.14 Q And how did you meet him?15 A He was a state representative at the time or16 state senator at the time I think. So I met17 him -- he went to the same university I did and18 he was -- he was just a known public official19 and I was -- an employee down in government for20 20 years down there. So I had often21 opportunities to run into him, and then we22 finally got to know each other and become23 friends from that point on.24 Q And Mr. Damschroder, how long have you known25 him?

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1 A At least probably 20 years or so. 15, 20 years2 or so.3 Q How did you meet him?4 A I met him when he worked for the Franklin5 County Republican Party and then when he went6 to the Franklin County Board of Elections.7 Q And in what connection did you meet him when he8 was with Franklin County -- you said Board of9 Elections, that's where you first met him?

10 A First was the Republican Party.11 Q Okay. Yes.12 A How did I meet him?13 Q Yeah.14 A Probably I was involved in the Republican Party15 down there so him being the executive director16 I would just have interactions with him.17 Q In what way were you involved in the Republican18 Party at that time back, you know, 20 years19 ago?20 A Yeah. I was a central committee representative21 for the Republican Party.22 Q Have you had any other roles for the Republican23 Party since then?24 A I'm on the central committee for Cuyahoga25 County Republican Party.

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1 Q Currently?2 A Yeah. Currently. On the finance committee.3 Q Okay. Let me give you what will be marked as4 McDonald Exhibit 5.5 - - - - -6 (Plaintiff's Exhibit No. McDonald 5 was marked.)7 - - - - -8 Q This is Bates numbered SEC007065 through 7066.9 Ready for me to ask a few questions about it?

10 A Sure.11 Q Okay. I think the first e-mail, which is the12 last on the -- it begins on the bottom of the13 first page, it appears to be an e-mail from you14 dated September 5th, 2014, and it is to a15 number of people, including Anthony Perlatti,16 an e-mail address that I believe is, or I'm17 assuming is board member McNair, Cuyahoga18 County Board of Elections member McNair; is19 that correct?20 A Yes.21 Q And there's a Miss Chappell, I believe that's22 the board member we were talking about a minute23 ago?24 A Yes.25 Q I take it this bottom e-mail went to the



Exhibit G




26 (Pages 98 to 101)

Page 98

1 various board members and others?2 A Correct.3 Q Okay. And it's cc'd to Mr. Doyle. And you --4 I don't want to read the whole thing, but maybe5 you can just summarize what you were discussing6 in that September 5th, 2014 e-mail.7 A It looks like we were ready to discuss8 additional voting hours at a meeting, an9 upcoming board meeting.

10 Q Okay. Oh, go ahead.11 A And I'm asking Matt if he has any advice for me12 to discuss at the board.13 Q I'm sorry. I want to talk about that one in a14 minute, but I actually just wanted to focus on15 the one at the bottom for --16 A Okay.17 Q When you were forwarding -- I'm sorry, when you18 were sending it to the board members and other19 people. You say, "Good afternoon. Attached20 per Sandy's request," and you go on from there?21 A Yes.22 Q Can you describe what you're discussing in that23 e-mail?24 A It appears that -- can I have a second here?25 Q Sure.

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1 A I would prefer if you just read it.2 Q Okay.3 A I mean, it stands for itself. It's a litany of4 different questions that I was talking to the5 board.6 Q Okay. Sure.7 A Before the meeting.8 Q Let me just ask you this: Does that e-mail,9 the one on the bottom, dated September 5th,

10 does that appear to be an e-mail that you sent11 to the individuals listed here, Anthony12 Perlatti, Mr. McNair, Miss Chappell and the13 others?14 A Yes, it does.15 Q Okay. And September 5th, this e-mail you sent16 September 5th, 2014, would it be fair to17 conclude from this e-mail that this was an18 e-mail you wrote after Judge Economus had19 issued an order that Golden Week be restored20 and certain other changes to the hours for21 early voting?22 A Yes, it does.23 Q Okay. And so in here you're discussing options24 for implementing Judge Economus's order; is25 that correct?

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1 A Yes.2 Q And those are going to be up for discussion at3 a board meeting I take it?4 A Correct.5 Q Okay. And then that appears to have been6 forwarded, if you go up from that message on7 the first page of this, Exhibit 5, so it's got8 SEC7065 at the bottom, if you go up one from9 that it seems to be forwarded from you to what

10 I believe is your personal e-mail; is that11 correct?12 A Yes, that is correct.13 Q Okay. And that was on September 6th, 2014. Do14 you recall why you forwarded it to your15 personal e-mail?16 A No, I don't.17 Q Okay. But you did forward that e-mail to your18 personal e-mail?19 A I did.20 Q Okay. And then up at the top it looks like you21 from your personal e-mail then I guess22 forwarded both of those e-mails below to23 Matt Damschroder; is that correct?24 A That's correct.25 Q And you forwarded it to him at his personal

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1 e-mail address?2 A That's correct.3 Q Do you know why you forwarded it to him at his4 personal e-mail address?5 A I do not.6 Q But you did send this e-mail dated7 September 6th, 2014, 11:28 p m. to Matt8 Damschroder?9 A Yes.

10 Q And forwarded the two e-mails below?11 A Yes.12 Q Okay. And this one I will read because it's13 short. It says, "Subject: Forward: Early14 Voting Hours. Hi there. Any advice for my15 Monday's board meeting? Sandy is going to go16 for additional hours or at least the final17 weekdays while awaiting SOS decision. What do18 you think the timeframe will be with JH's19 appeal? Any insight or direction you can give20 me will be beneficial prior to our meeting.21 Thanks, Matt."22 First, Sandy, I take it, is referring to23 Mr. McNair?24 A Yes.25 Q And you are saying here that he is going to



Exhibit G




27 (Pages 102 to 105)

Page 102

1 seek at the board meeting additional early2 in-person voting hours; is that correct?3 A That's my understanding.4 Q And when you refer to at least the final5 weekdays, you mean the final three days before6 the election; is that correct?7 A I -- I'm assuming so.8 Q Okay. And it says, "While awaiting SOS9 decision" -- I assume SOS refers to Secretary

10 of State?11 A Yes.12 Q And witnesses, who are you referring to?13 A I can't recall.14 Q And, "What do you think the timeframe will be15 with JH's appeal." I assume JH refers to16 John Husted?17 A Correct.18 Q And I assume the appeal, you're talking about19 his appeal of Judge Economus's order?20 A Yes.21 Q Okay. And then you say, "Any insight or22 direction you can give me will be beneficial23 prior to our meeting." What sort of direction24 or insight are you looking for from25 Mr. Damschroder or Mr. Husted?

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1 A I'm assuming that I'm looking for to be able to2 tell the board if -- tell the board what the3 status of -- what the likely status would be of4 the appeal because in this mail I'm referring5 to things that we will need to do to6 accommodate the judge's decision here. So if7 it was an appeal, I'm assuming that I was8 asking for any insight on or advice on how I9 can explain either what's likely to come to the

10 board or changes to the board based if it is11 appealed.12 Q Okay. And any reason, again, why you wouldn't13 just ask for that guidance from your official14 county Board of Elections --15 A No.16 Q -- e-mail?17 A No.18 MR. SPIVA: Go off the19 record. Let me just take what will hopefully20 be five minutes.21 VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the22 record. The time is 11:58. We're off the23 record.24 (Recess taken.)25 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on

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1 the record. The time is 12:14.2 BY MR. SPIVA:3 Q Okay. Thanks, Mr. McDonald. I'm just going to4 give you what will be marked as McDonald 6.5 - - - - -6 (Plaintiff's Exhibit No. McDonald 6 was marked.)7 - - - - -8 Q Just while you're taking a look at it,9 Mr. McDonald, this exhibit, which has been

10 marked McDonald 6, has a Bates number11 SEC005512. Have you had a chance to read it?12 A I'm reading it.13 Q Take your time. Just let me know when you're14 done.15 A Okay.16 Q All right. This appears to be an e-mail from17 [email protected] and it's to a18 number of people, some of whom we've already19 talked about, Halle Pelger. I don't believe I20 have asked you about [email protected]. Do21 you recognize that e-mail address?22 A I do not.23 Q Okay. It's also addressed to Matthew24 Masterson, and who is that?25 A He -- at the time he might have been the

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1 assistant Secretary of State.2 Q Okay. And I don't know if I said it, but the3 e-mail is dated April 28th, 2014, and it also4 is addressed to Craig Forbes at gmail.com. Who5 is Craig Forbes?6 A I do not know.7 Q Okay. You're not on this e-mail, I take it?8 None of these e-mail addresses belong to you?9 A No.

10 Q Mr. Damschroder says, "Talked with Pat McD via11 phone." Is that a reference to you?12 A I'm assuming, but I can't say for a fact.13 Q Okay. It says, "I think he's comfortable with14 the directive thing. He thinks Sandy and15 prosecuting attorney are going to try and make16 a big deal about directives and advisories17 generally. Pat's thinking is, 1, Husted put18 everyone on notice that OAEO hours were the19 only recommendations out there, that the GA20 should adopt them but didn't, and in the21 absence of legislative activity (and with no22 one making any other recommendations let alone23 bipartisan ones) the SOS acted; 2, the second24 directive is within the 90 days; 3,25 instructions of the SOS, regardless of whether



Exhibit G




28 (Pages 106 to 109)

Page 106

1 they are directives or advisories, have to be2 followed."3 And there's more, but I want to ask you4 about that part of it first. Do you recall a5 conversation in which you made these points to6 Mr. Damschroder?7 A I do not recall it.8 Q Okay. Do you know what this is referring to?9 A I think I do. I think it's referring to

10 Sandy's concern with the Secretary of State11 making --12 Q And Sandy McNair?13 A Yes. Sandy's concern with the Secretary of14 State making temporary -- not opening up to the15 public for permanent directives. He had issues16 with that.17 Q And what about the reference to putting18 everyone on notice that the OAEO hours were the19 only recommendations out there?20 A I do remember that. It was when people -- I'm21 pretty sure I remember that. It's when there22 is a lot of concern about Jon Husted putting23 out the hours, but the point of the matter24 being no one else was giving him any hours, the25 suggested hours except the OAEO.

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1 Q When you refer to hours, you refer to hours for2 early in-person voting?3 A Yes.4 Q And let me ask you, how frequently do you speak5 with Mr. Damschroder either by phone or in6 person?7 A Probably once every three months.8 Q Once every three months?9 A Yeah. Three or four months.

10 Q And below where I read before it says, "Two11 other items: 1, Pat said Turner, Budish,12 et cetera and 11 churches are having a rally at13 the Cuyahoga BOE on Saturday to highlight the14 need for more weekend and evening voting."15 Do you recall telling Mr. Damschroder16 that?17 A I do not recall.18 Q Do you recall that happening, that Turner,19 Budish, et cetera --20 A I do.21 Q -- and 11 churches. Okay.22 What is the reference to Turner and23 Budish?24 A They were leading -- they were -- what I was25 doing is I'm assuming informing them that --

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1 this is right before the primary election that2 we're going to have -- that they're going to do3 a rally at these 11 churches to highlight the4 need for more weekend and evening hours.5 Q This was prior to the primary in 2014?6 A It was.7 Q And I'm sorry, who is Turner?8 A Nina Turner was a state senator then.9 Q And who is Budish?

10 A He is the county exec now and he was state11 representative at the time.12 Q He's Cuyahoga County executive?13 A Yes.14 Q And why would you have the need to inform15 Mr. Damschroder that they and the 11 churches16 were having a rally at the Cuyahoga County17 Board of Elections?18 A Just probably I was on the phone with them so I19 could see logically just telling them what was20 going on.21 Q Okay. And the last thing in the e-mail is22 point 2 under the two other items, it says,23 "FYI only, Greenspan thinks that if we do not24 mail English/Spanish absentee applications that25 Cuyahoga County prosecuting attorney will use

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1 that as a reason to mail absentee apps in2 Cuyahoga with return postage. (Argument goes3 that the SOS violated the DOJ consent agreement4 with Cuyahoga by not mailing bilingual election5 materials so Cuyahoga must mail them and they6 must be postage prepaid because it would be7 close to the election.) I think there's8 several things flawed in that reasoning, but I9 think it's good to know that it is out there."

10 Do you know what that reference is to?11 Let me ask the question a little bit better.12 Do you know what point number 2, what that is13 referring to?14 A He -- if I remember correctly Greenspan15 thought --16 Q Who is Greenspan?17 A David Greenspan, he's a county council member.18 He thought if we didn't -- that if we had a19 consent decree with the Hispanic community, or20 DOJ via Hispanic community about bringing all21 the voting materials in English and Spanish and22 then the Secretary of State was to -- was to23 send out the vote by mail applications, they24 would not be in Spanish. So there was a25 concern that we would be violating the consent



Exhibit G




29 (Pages 110 to 113)

Page 110

1 decree if we didn't, you know, if it wasn't2 sent out in Spanish.3 Q I see.4 A But that was alleviated because it's not our5 document.6 Q Okay. I see. And I take it the Secretary of7 State didn't -- well, strike that.8 Let me -- let me give you what will be9 marked as McDonald 7.

10 - - - - -11 (Plaintiff's Exhibit No. McDonald 7 was marked.)12 - - - - -13 MR. SPIVA: Can I get one14 of those back from you? Do you all mind15 sharing? I think I gave you my last copy.16 Thanks.17 MS. COONTZ: Do we have a18 copy?19 MR. SPIVA: I think so.20 Oh, sorry. I don't know how that happened. I21 thought I made an extra, but do you mind22 reading over his shoulder, I can --23 MR. DOYLE: You read it.24 MR. SPIVA: I got one25 other option. You know what, never mind. I

Page 111

1 can look at it electronically. You guys can2 use it. Thanks.3 Q So Mr. McDonald, this Exhibit 7 is titled,4 "Written Testimony from Cuyahoga County Board5 of Elections' Director Pat McDonald," and I6 will represent to you that I pulled this down7 from the website of the Presidential Commission8 on Election Reform, and take your time in9 looking at it, but I only have a couple

10 questions.11 A Okay.12 Q One of which is is this the testimony that you13 submitted to the presidential commission?14 A Yes, it is.15 Q Okay. And again, take your time, but my only16 other kind of question about this is really17 about pages 4 and maybe carrying over into 518 where you're talking about the vote center19 concept that we discussed earlier.20 A Okay.21 Q And really my only question is that is this --22 in your testimony here are you discussing the23 vote center proposal -- well, let me back up24 and get a better question here.25 Earlier we talked about this concept of a

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1 vote center and how that might help the2 administration of elections. Are you3 discussing in this testimony to the4 presidential commission that concept of a vote5 center?6 A I guess I'm presenting that concept of a vote7 center to them.8 Q Okay. And you're presenting that as something9 that would bring about a positive change in the

10 administration of elections?11 A Yes.12 Q And you also say in here that vote centers13 would be limited to two different forms,14 election day vote centers and early vote15 centers; is that correct?16 A That's correct.17 Q And would there be the same number under this18 proposal of vote centers for early voting as19 for election day voting?20 A There would be.21 Q And has your view on the -- this concept,22 desirability of this concept of using vote23 centers, has that changed in any way since the24 testimony you submitted to the presidential25 commission?

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1 A No, but I guess the only thing I would add to2 that question would be the feasibility of it3 because of the implementation due to the cost.4 But outside of that I still believe that this5 would be a good thing to do.6 Q Do you think it would ultimately save money in7 election administration?8 A Possibly.9 MR. SPIVA: Give me maybe

10 three minutes. I think I may be done.11 VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the12 record. The time is 12:29.13 (Off the record.)14 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on15 the record. The time is 12:33.16 BY MR. SPIVA:17 Q Mr. McDonald, earlier when we were talking18 about Golden Week, I think you had discussed19 the potential cost of having another week of20 in-person early voting. Putting aside cost, is21 there any other interest or reason by Cuyahoga22 County in not having Golden Week other than the23 cost, potential cost implications?24 A I guess like if you read in my declaration, any25 expanded services there is, you know, there's



Exhibit G




30 (Pages 114 to 117)

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1 not only the cost, but there's the effort for2 the resources in terms of the planning to put3 into that, the people that we would need to do4 that. You're taking them away from the other5 events or activities or job responsibilities6 that they could do. So, I mean, you could7 weigh the pros and cons of does that extra week8 really matter when they can come for the 289 days after that. So in that week we still have

10 the preparation, we're still preparing for the11 big event, you know, four weeks down the road.12 Q Right. But other than that resource type13 issues or cost type issues, are there any other14 interests that the county has in not having a15 Golden Week?16 A No.17 Q And are you aware of -- this is probably18 obvious from some of the discussion earlier,19 but I assume the state did not provide the20 funds to implement Golden Week when it wasn't21 in place?22 A That's correct.23 Q Are you aware of any interest that the state24 has in not having Golden Week?25 MS. COONTZ: Objection.

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1 Calls for a legal conclusion.2 A No, I'm not.3 Q And then let me just ask you a couple of4 questions about 2008 and 2012. What is your --5 with respect to 2008, I take it you were the6 deputy director in 2008 during the period that7 the general presidential election occurred?8 A Yes.9 Q What was your impression of the lines, let's

10 say, during the early voting period in 2008?11 A It was similar to 2012. I mean, we basically12 were able to accommodate the people that were13 -- that came to vote. There was probably more14 early lines -- I'm sorry, there was -- we had15 of course the final weekend that was the big16 push, and that was similar in both 2008, as17 well as 2012, but I do remember just more18 weekday lines. Not that they weren't19 manageable, but we saw them more. We were able20 to get more parking garages in '12 and put up21 more work stations I think in '12 to22 accommodate -- to alleviate the lines comparing23 the two elections.24 Q And during the early voting period in 2008 were25 there peak either days or times when the lines

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1 were the longest?2 A Outside of the final weekend when it was, you3 know, from beginning to end of early voting it4 was crowded, but the peak times would be right5 at the beginning of the morning, a little at6 lunch time, and then afternoon, you know, drive7 time.8 Q And what were the longest lines that you either9 observed or measured during the early voting

10 period in 2008?11 A Excluding that weekend, or --12 Q Any time during the early voting period.13 A Okay. The final weekend they were probably an14 hour to an hour and a half in line, but outside15 of that it was -- it was less than 10, 1516 minutes.17 Q Okay. And on election day in 2008 what is your18 impression of the lines that formed, if any, in19 2008 election day?20 A The only time that we really got any inside or21 I guess any calls on the lines in a negative22 capacity was at early -- right when the polls23 would open. So of course, you know, when you24 don't have -- when you close and you open, the25 first voter, the second voter is going to form

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1 a line. So that's where we heard at the2 beginning of the day there was lines. But none3 of them were over -- nobody was standing in4 line over 20, 25 minutes.5 Q And at the end of the day on election day were6 there any precincts in Cuyahoga County in 20087 that had to remain open past the closing time8 in order to accommodate people who had gotten9 in line prior to closing?

10 A Not that I'm aware of. I mean, for the lines.11 If they were -- if they were in the building to12 vote, you know, of course we would, you know,13 if there was -- if there was a short line. I14 can't say for sure, I just can't recall I15 guess. It could have been.16 Q Okay.17 A But there wasn't any complaints about it or it18 wasn't a long wait by any means.19 Q Okay. And then in 2012 with respect to the20 early voting period, what is your impression of21 the situation with lines during the early22 voting period in 2012?23 A We had no difficulty in 2012 except for the24 final weekend.25 Q Okay.



Exhibit G




31 (Pages 118 to 121)

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1 A The big push.2 Q And what were the peak lines like in the final3 weekend early voting in 2012?4 A The peak lines was probably between an hour,5 hour and a half.6 Q Okay.7 A Hour and a half being the top I would assume.8 Q And on election day in 2012 did you experience9 any issues with lines in Cuyahoga County?

10 A Again, we've had similar to 2008, just at the11 beginning of the day.12 Q Okay. Has your office done any analysis or13 study of potential lines, issues with lines in14 the upcoming 2016 presidential election?15 A No, we have not.16 MR. SPIVA: And -- okay.17 I don't think I have anything further actually.18 Thank you for your testimony.19 THE WITNESS: You're20 welcome.21 MR. SPIVA: Appreciate it.22 MS. COONTZ: Good23 afternoon, Mr. McDonald.24 THE WITNESS: Good25 afternoon.

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1 MS. COONTZ: My name is2 Bridget Coontz and I'm with the Attorney3 General's office and I'm just going to have4 some follow-up questions based on what5 Mr. Spiva asked you this morning in your6 deposition.7 EXAMINATION8 BY MS. COONTZ:9 Q We will go straight to what we discussed

10 regarding the 2012 election. You mentioned11 that the last week before the election there12 was approximately an hour to an hour and a half13 wait during the last weekend?14 A Correct.15 Q Okay. Now, is that the weekend that you also16 testified about that people were there to stand17 in line?18 A Correct.19 Q Okay. People were actually invited to come to20 the early voting center, correct?21 A Absolutely.22 MR. SPIVA: Objection.23 Q And you described it I believe as a festive24 atmosphere, correct?25 A Correct.

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1 Q And bands were playing, correct?2 A Correct.3 Q Going to this concept of vote centers, I4 believe you indicated that your proposal of a5 vote center would contemplate the same number6 of vote centers on election day as for early7 voting, correct?8 A Correct.9 Q Now, how many precinct voting locations are

10 there in Cuyahoga County?11 A Approximately 970 -- voting there's 97512 precincts, there's approximately 400 voting13 locations.14 Q Okay. How many vote centers would you15 contemplate?16 A I don't want to put too much into this, it's17 not like we've done research on it or anything,18 it was just in this testimony that I did, but19 if you -- if you kept things in line with the20 -- like a state representative house or a21 county council seat it would be easy math to do22 to -- you divide it up in the state and make it23 equitable for everybody so you would -- with24 that concept I would anticipate 11.25 Q So 11 vote centers on election day, correct?

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1 A Correct.2 Q And that is fewer polling locations than3 currently exist under Ohio law in Cuyahoga4 County on election day; is that correct?5 A That's correct.6 Q So some people would have to travel farther to7 vote on election day under this vote center8 concept?9 A Correct.

10 Q Now, the vote center concept would also require11 statutory changes, correct?12 A It would.13 Q Okay. And you mentioned the feasibility of14 vote centers. What were you talking about when15 you said there were feasibility issues with the16 vote center concept?17 A Well, and if I can clarify too, if in my18 thinking when I wrote that testimony is if we19 had 11 vote centers on election day, it would20 just make sense to have 11 early vote centers21 open, you know, since we have the locations,22 you would staff them, you would have the23 equipment in there. But if you didn't have24 election day vote centers and you still have25 precinct based voting, it certainly wouldn't



Exhibit G




32 (Pages 122 to 125)

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1 make sense to have 11 locations of early voting2 open in the county on that sole -- with that3 reasoning or with that concept. That would4 just be an overkill.5 But with the feasibility, I think you6 have to look at -- you would have to look at7 can -- the feasibility you would have to look8 at the cost, you would have to look at the9 equipment, you would have to look at the

10 staffing needs, you would have to look at11 finding those locations, and how you determine12 what location -- what locations or where the13 locations are. I think it would be very14 controversial.15 Q What currently goes into that process of16 finding polling locations?17 A Finding polling locations we have to be ADA18 compatible, and that's our biggest issue is19 finding locations that are ADA compatible. And20 we have to find out that they -- basically they21 will allow us in their place for election day,22 and then we have to talk about security issues23 with them. We have to talk about maintenance24 and restroom issues with them.25 So basically we will contact potential

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1 locations, we're just scouting out or looking2 for new polling locations and then we'll3 contact the owner or the -- if it's an4 administrative for, you know, a public entity5 we'll contact them and talk with them and see6 if they would allow us in there on election7 day.8 Q And for vote centers, the proposal would be to9 be at that location for longer than just one

10 day, correct?11 A Yes. It would be.12 Q Okay. Have you looked into issues with respect13 to just temporarily being able to get a14 location for the 30-day early voting period?15 A We have. We have -- we started that process16 and we have worked closely or tried to work17 closely with C.S.U. and to see if there was any18 interest of us having early voting over there19 and if they could accommodate us for the whole20 time period, we wouldn't have to move because21 they already have the venue on the schedule.22 So we have talked to them but we've found that23 it's not going to work because the final24 weekend they are not able to keep us in the25 same location.

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1 Q Okay. What about computer network connectivity2 issues?3 A That's going to be huge. So if we ever got to4 the point of moving -- of early vote centers or5 of moving our location, that's currently at6 that time board, we would have to look at the7 security, the internet hacking issues, we'll8 have to develop T1 lines basically, and if I'm9 still correct in my technology it was at one

10 point we would have to have a dedicated line11 from that location to the board to our12 database. So we would have those issues, as13 well.14 Q What are those lines used for?15 A They're used -- well, they're used for our16 voter registration system and voting modular.17 So you know that basically if somebody comes18 in, you know, to vote we can look them up and19 make sure where they vote at and we can mark it20 right there that they voted.21 Q On election day, how do you transport ballots22 from polling location to the Board of23 Elections?24 A They're taken by -- from the location by a25 member of the Republican Party and a member of

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1 the Democratic Party and then they are dropped2 off -- well, a drop off location. So we have3 various drop off locations throughout the4 county. So once they leave the polling5 location, they go to the drop off location, and6 then a sheriff's officer and bipartisan member7 of that party or not -- partisan member of8 whatever the sheriff's affiliation is drives9 along down with the sheriff's officer and then

10 drops the ballot boxes off at the Board of11 Elections warehouse on East 4th Street.12 Q And is this process set up by statutes?13 A Parts of it is. Part of it where you have to14 have a bipartisan team actually physically15 taking the ballots from the location to the16 Board of Elections.17 Q And this is something that is unique to paper18 ballot counties such as Cuyahoga County,19 correct?20 A That's correct.21 Q So have you thought about how you would22 implement this procedure for voting centers for23 30 days of early or 28 days of early voting?24 Excuse me.25 A We have not.



Exhibit G




33 (Pages 126 to 129)

Page 126

1 Q Okay. Would it require some statutory changes2 do you think?3 A I think it would.4 Q Okay. Now, we also talked about absentee and5 provisional voting, and I just want to clear up6 the difference between an absentee vote and a7 provisional vote. An absentee vote, the voter8 is actually registered to vote, correct?9 A Correct.

10 Q With a provisional vote, is the board able to11 verify that registration when the voter comes12 in to vote?13 A No.14 Q Okay.15 A For the most part. Usually not if their name16 is not in the poll book, and that is why they17 would have to vote provisionally if they're not18 able to verify at that point in time, unless19 they were already marked must vote20 provisionally because one of our mandated21 mailings has been returned to us as22 undeliverable or they don't live at that23 residence. So then we will mark the book that24 they must vote provisionally, or show an I.D.25 or something like that because we've received

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1 some indication back that they might not live2 at that address anymore.3 Q So is it fair to say this provisional process4 is designed to give voters the benefit of being5 able to vote when they otherwise are not --6 A Absolutely.7 Q -- registered?8 MR. SPIVA: Objection.9 Objection.

10 A Yes.11 Q Now, we also talked about the Cuyahoga County12 Board of Elections mailing of absentee ballot13 applications. This occurred in 2008 and 2010,14 correct?15 A It occurred in '8 and then each election16 subsequently until -- until 2010.17 Q Now, which voters did the Cuyahoga County Board18 mail applications to?19 A We mailed them out to all active registered20 voters.21 Q Okay. Now, you also discussed the voters to22 whom the Secretary of State mailed unsolicited23 ballot applications. Do you recall testifying24 that the Secretary of State mailed them to all25 active voters and all inactive voters who had

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1 voted in the previous gubernatorial and2 presidential election?3 A Correct.4 Q That's correct?5 A Yes.6 Q So the Secretary of State mailed out more7 absentee ballot applications than the Cuyahoga8 County Board of Elections did?9 A Correct.

10 Q Okay. And that captured more voters, correct?11 A It did, but we do now, and I can't say when we12 started the practice, we'll go back for the13 last two years if they voted.14 Q Okay.15 A And I don't know if I just adopted that off of16 Jon Husted's policy or if we've already done17 that.18 Q Now, you mentioned equal treatment of voters.19 Do you support treating all Ohio voters the20 same?21 A I do.22 Q And are there positives to uniformity in Ohio's23 election laws?24 A Sure.25 Q What are they?

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1 A There's, you know, there's positivities in2 them, for example, if we have an overlapping3 election with other counties and we do that,4 you know, with state school boards, with5 congressionals, with some state reps and state6 senate seats, so when the jurisdiction overlap7 from county to county, if -- I'm sorry. Did8 you say positives?9 Q Yes. Positives. What are the positives?

10 A Uniformity. I lost track here.11 MR. SPIVA: Objection by12 the way just for --13 A I'm going for the negative. I thought I was14 thinking positive.15 So with the uniformity, you know, we16 wouldn't -- we could then be open different17 hours than they could be. We could like in18 Cuyahoga County have extended hours, as Lake19 and Lorain County have restricted hours.20 People could get confused thinking we're out21 there marking, we're open this time and that22 time and, you know, so the surrounding counties23 they think their county is open, or as well as24 give them to -- does it give somebody an unfair25 advantage that there's more opportunity to vote



Exhibit G




34 (Pages 130 to 133)

Page 130

1 in one county than the other.2 So you have to look at you have a county3 and you have an elected official or somebody4 running for office that's from the county,5 that's not what -- if it's not open, it's kind6 of like it's not really treating him or her7 equally.8 Q So in this instance of cross county issues on9 the ballot, could a lack of uniformity

10 contribute to voter confusion?11 A Certainly.12 Q And you mentioned your outreach efforts in the13 community to educate voters about early voting.14 How does a lack of uniformity affect your15 ability to educate voters?16 A I think uniformity gives a county like ours the17 opportunity to go out there and we do strong18 marketing with them. So if we were open, if we19 did not have -- if we were open certain hours,20 we would be marketing those hours. We have a21 strong relationship with the media and what we22 call the corporate end outreach partners so23 that we have the ability to let the public know24 when we're open through our website and through25 robo calls and other different things than

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1 other people might not have the opportunity.2 So can create voter confusion.3 Q You mentioned marketing. Is this on4 television?5 A Well, we have in the past. We do a lot PSA's6 marketing in terms of direct mail, we do a7 voter information guide that we send out to all8 registered -- all our active registered voters9 and let them know we're open for hours -- these

10 are the voter opportunities.11 Q These PSA's, do they reach across Cuyahoga12 County lines?13 A They would.14 Q So how do you think that would impact voter15 confusion if, say, in Lake County you mentioned16 they had different hours. Would a lack of17 uniformity in the message Cuyahoga County is18 sending contribute to confusion for Lake County19 voters?20 A It could. I think people would be, you know,21 if they're not paying attention that it's22 Cuyahoga County only. So if they're hearing a23 PSA or even radio, T.V. interviews that I do,24 you know, they -- I do those quite frequently,25 and so I don't think the average voter is

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1 looking, you know, that it's Cuyahoga County2 specifically. You know, they're thinking, oh,3 yeah, come down and vote these hours.4 Q And I just have a couple more questions. The5 OAEO that we talked about, that is a bipartisan6 group, correct?7 A Correct.8 Q Are you aware of any other days and hours9 planned put forth in Ohio by a bipartisan group

10 such as the OAEO?11 A No.12 Q And we referenced and we talked about your13 declaration, which I believe is Exhibit 1. Is14 there anything in your declaration that you15 feel needs to be changed?16 MR. SPIVA: Objection.17 You can answer.18 A I do not.19 Q And is everything in this declaration true?20 A Yes, it is to the best of my knowledge.21 MS. COONTZ: Thank you. I22 have no further questions.23 THE WITNESS: Thank you.24 MR. SPIVA: Nothing25 further for me. I assume -- do you have any

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1 questions?2 MR. DOYLE: No questions.3 VIDEOGRAPHER: This concludes4 the deposition. The time is 12:55. We're5 going off the record.6 (Deposition concluded at 12:55 p m.)789

10111213141516171819202122232425



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35 (Pages 134 to 136)

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THE STATE OF OHIO, ) SS:COUNTY OF CUYAHOGA. )

I, Lynn A. Regovich, a Notary Public withinand for the State of Ohio, duly commissioned andqualified, do hereby certify that PAT MCDONALD, wasfirst duly sworn to testify the truth, the wholetruth and nothing but the truth in the causeaforesaid; that the testimony then given by him wasby me reduced to stenotypy in the presence of saidwitness, afterwards transcribed on acomputer/printer, and that the foregoing is a trueand correct transcript of the testimony so given byhim as aforesaid. I do further certify that this deposition wastaken at the time and place in the foregoingcaption specified. I do further certify that I amnot a relative, counsel or attorney of eitherparty, or otherwise interested in the event of thisaction. IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set myhand and affixed my seal of office at Cleveland,Ohio, on this 1st day of November, 2015.

Lynn A. Regovich, Notary Public within and for the State of Ohio Commission expires June 14, 2018.

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THE STATE OF ) ) SS:COUNTY OF )

Before me, a Notary Public in and for saidstate and county, personally appeared theabove-named PAT MCDONALD, who acknowledged that hedid sign the foregoing transcript and that the sameis a true and correct transcript of the testimonyso given. IN TESTIMONY WHEREOF, I have hereuntoaffixed my name and official seal at this day of , 2015.

PAT MCDONALD

Notary PublicMy Commission expires:

lar

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DEPOSITION ERRATA SHEETPage No Line No Change to:








Reason for change:

SIGNATURE: DATE: PAT MCDONALD



Exhibit G




Exhibit G


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Case: 2:15-cv-01802-MHW-NMK Doc #: 109-1 Filed: 12/22/15 ... · case: 2:15-cv-01802-mhw-nmk doc #: 109-1 filed: 12/22/15 page: 1 of 2 pageid #: 5675. ... 16 5 columbus dispatch article