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1 BEFORE THE ENVIRONMENTAL APPEALS BOARD u.S. ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY WASHINGTON, D.C. ORAL ARGUMENT IN THE MATTER OF: SMITH FARM ENTERPRISES, Docket No. CWA-03-2001-0022 LLC: CWA Appeal 08-02 No. Tuesday, July 20, 2010 Administrative Courtroom Room 1152 EPA East Building 1201 Constitution Avenue, NW Washington, DC The above-entitled matter came on for hearing, pursuant to notice, at 10:00 a.m. BEFORE: THE HONORABLE KATHIE A. STEIN, Environmental Appeals Judge THE HONORABLE ANNA I. WOLGAST, Environmental Appeals Judge THE HONORABLE CHARLES J. SHEEHAN, Environmental Appeals Judge NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.w. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

BEFORE THE ENVIRONMENTAL APPEALS BOARD IN ... By...MS. DURR: Environmental Appeals Board of the U~ited States Environmental Protec~ion Agency is now in session for oral argument, in

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Page 1: BEFORE THE ENVIRONMENTAL APPEALS BOARD IN ... By...MS. DURR: Environmental Appeals Board of the U~ited States Environmental Protec~ion Agency is now in session for oral argument, in

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BEFORE THE ENVIRONMENTAL APPEALS BOARD

uS ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY

WASHINGTON DC

ORAL ARGUMENT

IN THE MATTER OF

SMITH FARM ENTERPRISES

Docket No CWA-03-2001-0022

LLC CWA Appeal 08-02

No

Tuesday July 20 2010

Administrative Courtroom Room 1152 EPA East Building 1201 Constitution Avenue NW Washington DC

The above-entitled matter came on for hearing pursuant to notice at 1000 am

BEFORE

THE HONORABLE KATHIE A STEIN Environmental Appeals Judge

THE HONORABLE ANNA I WOLGAST Environmental Appeals Judge

THE HONORABLE CHARLES J SHEEHAN Environmental Appeals Judge

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE Nw (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON DC 20005-3701 wwwnealrgrosscom

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APPEARANCES

o~ Bebalf 0= Snith Far~ E~terprises LLC

HUNTER SIMS JR ESQ of Kaufman amp Ca~oles PC

150 VJes Ma1 Street Suie 2100 Norfolk VA 23510 (757) 624-3272 (757) 6243169 fax

a10 IAJUAclA S WILCHER ESQ

of English Lucas priest amp Owsley 1101 College Street PO Box 77G Bowling Green KY 42102 (270) 781-6500 (270) 782-7782 fax

On Behalf of the Environmental Protection Agency Region III

STEFANA D SfiAHE ESQ of US Environmental Protection Agency

Region III 1650 Arch Street lvail Code 3FC20 Philadelphia PA 19103-2029 (215) 814-2682 (215) 814-2603 fax

ALSO PRESENT

J~4ES BOYD DONNl CAlER-TAL EGRlKA JURR KARYN ~JENDELOWSKI

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCAIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTONDC 20005-3701 wwwnealrgrossoom

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P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-K-G-S

1001 ala

MS DURR Environmental Appeals

Board of the U~ited States Environmental

Protec~ion Agency is now in session for oral

argument in re Smith Farm Enterprises LLC

docket number CJA-03 -2001-0022 CvA appeal

number- 08-02 The hono-able judges Kathie

Stein Anna Wolgast Charles Sheehan

presidirg please tJ2~ off all c 1 pholes ar~d

no recording devices allowed You may be

seated

J~DGE it(OLGAS Good nornirg v-ie ye

here today pursuant to the Boards order of

May 13th in Smith Farm Enterprises and

pursuant to tat ocder each side w~ll have

thirty minutes for argtlment and Smith Farm

play reserve five ninutes for a rebuttal if

Y0l cl1cose AncL counsel ween you make you

argument if you could state your name for the

record And with tha~ r think were ready to

p~oceed

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

132-3 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202) 234middot4433 WASHINGTOn DC 20005middot3701 wwwneallgroosoom

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MS ~JILCHER Than( you very much

I 7t LaC-uana vilcher ltlith English Lucas

iest and Owsley rile are also represented by

Hunter Sims of Kaufman and Canoles

representing STIli th Farm Enterprises LLC Also

at the table is ~im Boyd who is one of the

owners of Sr1ith Farts we would 111lt8 to

reserve our five minutes for rebuttal please

and I would also ask the Boardls indulgence

since I fro relatively nevl to this very long

cass should I need to confer with Mr Sims or

-ir Boyd durng the course of t1is discussio1

Thank yOJ very ~uch

Im here today because this is

actually a very very important case Its an

inportar~t case boh to ~he -- the Boyd family

bot1 in ers 0 the 8otiona2 and nancia

to11 it has taken over the last eleven years

but also because of the important policy

questions that are presented before this

board especially n the light of the

u~isdi ctional detelfinaions under Rapanos

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1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON DC 20005middot3701 wwwrealrgrosscom

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which is clearly the subject of our

conversation today

oward that end ve Jlot~d l=-ke to

jcst br~efly call to the Boards attention a

short history of the case going back to 1998

and 1999 when drainage ditches were

constructed on Smt~ Fanrs 1 some wooded

areas dra~ni1g that that land The - shy

beorepound tne proJec~ t-negan anabull was under t aken

Mr Boyd contacted and met with the Army Corps

of asked for ~heir opinion

concerning jurisdictional issues and otter

issues concerning a permit The corps of

Engineers certainly never indicated in any

fashion that there was a problen at that time

jurisdictior~aly consderirg tle wor~ that was

a~ticipated to occur

Of course were here today largely

because the whole jurisdictional issue has

been turned up Ol ts head by Rapanos in 20061

and can certainly say that Ve Vould be in a

very different situation were it back to 1989

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or ~92 or 93 ween I was at tt8 Agency and

dealing with iss~es when then the only thing

that was necessary for the Agency to prove was

that there were waters of ~he United Sta~es

ncluding wetlands that is lands that vere

inundated or satura~ed by surface or ground

water s~ch that ~hey could and ordinarily did

support a prevalence for vegetation typically

adapted to life in saturated soil conditions

We always referred on the Riverside Bayview

case and extended the adjacency of the

wetlands to a navigable water beyond that

such tha any tine thac there were wetla~ds

that they were conside-ed to be

jlrisdictiol1al ard eniorcemalt actior~ woud

have been considered proper

In the Rapanos Case the court

talks abo~t the expanding jurisdiction by the

Corps of Engi~eers and cetainly by

extension to EPA when in many of those

circumstances EPA was pushing the Corps to

expa1d their jurisdiction And the court

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po s out that tneuro Corps adopted increasingly

broad interpretations of its own regulations

Talked about the migratory bird rule It

talked about how the Corps rad exparded ~ts

own interpretations of the definition of

tributaries to include ephemeral streams ard

c~ose that ran ~hrough drainage Qitc~es And

then the plurality opinion goes on to clarify

that that type of regulation was never

intended to be covered by the Clean raer Act

as waters of the U S SOIDe of the key

JUDGE STEIN Ms Wilcher

JiS ~TIL-CrER Yes

JVDGE STEIN Has any court held

that the plurality test alone determines

jurisdiction

ItS WILCHER I do not believe

that any court has held that the plurality

test alo~e confers jurisdiction

JUDGE STEIN Okay

MS 11 I LCHER I assume that the

court wants to hear about that since it is an

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impotant part of the decision AQd we can

talk about significant nexus next I if thatS

okay or if you wart me to go to significant

nexus now I be happy to do that

JUDGE STE=N No thats fine you

car talk about the pluralities first but le~

me ask you if we were to find that the

eviQe~ce met as J~dge Xoran oQ~6 the

significant nexus test but for whatever

reason it didnt meet the plura~ities test l

L1en vhat is middotJ~e OJtcorneuro

MS WILCHER Now thats a very

and no one knows In the Fourth Circuit

specifically what the outcome of that -- what

the outcome would De The Rapanos test

unfortunately in an effort to reign in

jurisdicion by the Corps and EPA created

probably as many questions as it did answer

and its created a lot additional

lit~gation So we I re here synpatretic 0

EPAS plight of having to try to figure out

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

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what that meanS l a~d the regulated community

also rying 0 figure oat what it means

becalse it is simply not clear The Marks case

that said that you would select the nost

Earow of the interpretations n a case such

as this might be difficult to apply because

it S hard to figure out itlhat the most 1arrowI

cefinition or application of this case would

be Obviously from Smith Farms standpoint

we would be really delighted shou~d =h~s board

decide to follow the Ilarks opinion and decide

that the Scalia test would be the most

appropiae here bJt vere perfecty preparedl

to address both

JUDGE WOLGAST B~t that is -- but

yot-e assuning trat the narrowest grounds

would then be the pluralities test as opposed

to say I the narrowest ground sin-ply being

tha hey rejeced the Rapanos evicence ald

remanded the case In terms of what -- what

five justices could agree to It Jas simply

ocemand

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MS rLCHER rgthat f S rigrLt Thats

right But i s presumed trat the CO-clrt s

reasoni1g ar~d the four -- the opinion of the

four written by Scalia the opinion of

Roberts the opinion of Justice Kennedy all

rreant sameL-hing J and hat is what we are left

to vlork within and -shy

TUDGE SHEEHAN What do you think

cf the governme~ts argument trat either test

can apply as the First and Eighth Circuits

have held

MS WI~CHER well clearly a

nillnber of circuits have held that either test

Itould apply f ard in this case we we

believe that the evidence despicB what the

ALJs have found we believe the evidence

clea~ly shows that under neither test would

this area considered to be jurisdictional

~nder the curre~t interpretatio~ of the Clean

Water Act u~der Rapanos

And I really do think chat

not wanting to lose the forest for the trees

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here the forest -- the big picture is thatI

Rapanos is a dramatic shift in the way

busir~ess as usual has been done aL these

agencies from 1972 ~ntil 2006 It is -shy

in 2001 you had a little deviation here but

its a ilge dfference and what we find in

the brief -- and what we find in the brief of

t1e govermnent in this case is lot much of a

differerce from how the law previously lttas

interpreted and Ill -- Ill just go ahead

aYld address thae ssae and that is that the

the strongest argument it appears that

he government nakes in its brief dealing

with the significant nexus test is that

wetlands are ~rrponart ~1etlards provide

valuable functions and even Rapanos case

notes that the Clean V~ater Ac has been very

important and serves an important public

interests and Section 404 and the wetla~ds

laws i-l particuar provide ar~ irportant public

interest

JUDGE SHE1 Vie11 i 81 c the

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governments argument that these wetlands I in

particua are important I and can you address

how these wetlands do or do not meet the

Kennedy significant nexus test

fiS WILCHER That woud be t1e

goverlli~ents argument but in this case they

have failed cO co inCroduce by a

preponderance of the evidence ~hat that is

the case

JUJGE WOLGAST Coud you describe

for us what you ~elieve the goverr~ent would

have to show at a minimum to meet Justine

Kernedys significant nexus test in this

context

MS ~iILCHER At a mini~um they

wotd have to show some measure of the effec

that would be had by this wetlands property

upor~ a navigable vater of the Uni ed States

and they have not done so ln ary regard

JUDGE SHEEHIN Wasnt there

abunda1t testimony says the gDve=runent by

expert i1itness Martin and others that there

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was such a C oILleci en YOJ f re speakirg very

theoretically Id like if you could to get

specific about what you think the failu~es are

i~ the governments case on the Kennedy test

MS ~VIrJCHER Yes but if you -shy

+_--ne if you look at the gover1TIleuroEt s

argument one of their lengthy arguments is

about the impact 0 denitrification that

VJetlands provide an important deni trification

iss~eJ pointing out that the Chesapeake Bay

tas too rruch nityogen and tbat its important

to keep that out They talk about the fact

that n~toger coues from atrrosphe-ic

deposition They talk about the fact that

microbes in the soil vi22 break hat rtroger

down and then they talk about that once the

nitrogen is broken dmvr it ll be taken up by

the breeze and i If~ay even be given off again

into -- into the air

JDGE STEIN ltJasn f t there

plentiful testimony by government witnesses

and the companys witnesses as to what was

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occurr~ng specifically at this site I mean

I think the challenge for the compa~y i~ this

appeal 8 that there were credibili ty findings

Chat tiere made by the ALJ as to some of the

testimony by respondents by the companys

wi tnesses and given the Board f 5 standard forJ

crecibility determinations where the 30ard

you knovl historically ove many mar~y years

gives great weight to an ALJ~s finding how is

it ha t we can ove look he ALJ S credibi lity

determinations in the face of countervai~ing

evidence ~hat the ALJ found ~o be credible

(S WILCHER Judge Stel if I

can finish Judge Sheehans question I III ge

right back 0 you on that You were wanting

some specifics and an example of what the

government tried to prove in its case By

go~ng through this whole denitrification

process they nake ~o distinction betwee~ the

value that ris particalar wetlald is making

or any paricular wetland is making I to the

denitrification 0 the Chesapeake Bay

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JUDGE SHEEHAN But the Kennedy

tea says that if wetlands aloLe or in

combination with other wetlands have that

kind of effect

115 WILCHER Wetlands alone or in

corrbinato1 with otrer wetlands or in

combination lith the uplands the arguments

~ha t tbey ace laking wOClld apply equally to

uplands and as the court noted in the Rapanos

decision applying some of these tests as the

government histori cally has applied them to

say that they are jurisdictional sirrply

because hey have value and may be somewhat

miles aay hut may have some connection or

some val~e ~i~es away being speculative in

nature does rot cause it to be

jurisdictional and it sa~d i~ so the en~ire

United States would be considered regulated

llilder tbe Clear~ ater Act

JUDGE SHEEHAN Theres ~~ theres

one and cot to get in the vay of Judge

Steins question but Qne of the exhibitsr

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Remand Exhibit 937 shows a very honeycombed

tissue through the Srith Farm weta1ds going

ou~ to the two rivers and then to the bay I~

looks sure _ surely to me it looks from this

exhibit and otes as if tl1e wetlands are very

proximate to and affect directly the waters

below Car you address that

KS WILCE2R I wil Those naps

do not show any actual measurable connection

nor do they show a contir1oJS surface

conE6ction r~avigable vrates

JUDGE SHEEHAN Why does it have to

be a surface connection tilly car_ t it be stbshy

surface if theres a hydrological link

MS WILCHER But theres ~o

showir~g of a silD-surface hydroogica liak

either Theres a total lack of evidence of

probative dence i~ th~s case to actualy

tie that paricu=-ar vletland Co a rcavigable

water which by the way you would have to gor

fcom tha wetland to a drair~age ditcr~ anc

went out there and traipsed down the site

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before I came here to talk to you about this

but youd have to go fr~~ that -- b~t this ~s

all en the record -- YOlld have to go fron

that area that might be-- that part of it that

might be considered a we~land~ through

drainage di tches t1at are only inerrrit ert

in nature and t1e evidef~ce is clear that

theYre only intermittent in nature including

the USGS blue line dotted lines and then they

would have to go from tlere to Bailey Creek

non- navigable to Drurr Point Creek

non-navigable] then to tributaries of the

westeGl branch of the Elizabeth River I which

is t~e f rst tne you I d hi a ~avigable wate

If go in the opposite

direction they would have to go from drainage

ditches to Quake~ Neck Creek to ~eans Bra~ch

which are tributaries 0 tne ravigable water

the Nansemond River 14d so there there is

no proof that there is a connection

Things could lave been done Tne-e

cOmiddotJld have been dye raclgs there cOlld have

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been a~l kinds of evidence hey could have

taken samples they could have done

quantitative analysis There is no chemical

evidence there is no physical evidence there

is no biological evidence that connecs this

to a navigable water f and therein lies the

problem

JJDGE TO~GAST Justa if I

could follow up on that before we get back to

cred~bility iss~es

MS HLCHER Okay

JUDGE WOLGAST Are you saying that

the fact they floTlI throJgh ditches is a

jurisdictional problem

MS 1tILCHER Not particularly

JUXE vIOLGASI And the1 get ~ ing

back to the testimony that Judge Sheehan was

referring to where JIdge Morar was referring

to the testimony of Mr Rhodes and Mr Martin

that the property provides flood storage flow

moderaion carbOIl sequestration vlater

purification denitrification what I want to

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undsystard aboJt your argument 1s are these

aspects insufficient or would they be

sufficient if in your mind there was more

evidence of the connection of these attributes

to the Nansemond or Elizabeth Rivers

MS iILCHER EPA -- the govenment

cant simply say that wetlands are valuable

because they are-- help prevent flooding and

not show that they would help prevent flooding

in this particular case and that it would

significantly help prevent flooding in t~is

partcular case lrJha ttey have done toe

Drie is to siIply lay down he well-knoJl

attributes a~d valuable functions and values

of wetlands and said therefore this is

having a significant effect on navigable

~ivers Theye is not a co~~ection they have

lot snoltm by a1y credible evidence cause and

effect of any sigrifcant iIEpact tpon thef

navigable rivers

JUDGE SHEEHAN But you make

again a very theoretical argument about the

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fact Chat the goverruuent just argues wetlands

fgelerally but werer t government wi tnesses

crawling allover this property mul iple

times testify~ng at great lengtl lots of

exhibits aerials historc maps and

everythi~g else to show in this case fo~ this

property there was trat link Its hard to

believe with all that 11Bssive Estimony and

getting to ~he credibility issue that he

governrrent doesn~t have a pretty solid case

rat hat nexus sat) sfyilg the Kennedy test

exists

MS WILCHER It is hard to

believe I totally agree It is hard to

believe Tle governmert has had unfettered

aCCess to this property for over a decade and

have failed 0 develop flmr drainage elements

they cant show how illuch flows off the site

they cant show vhat type of sediment runoff

might have occurred at ~he site ~hey ca~tt

show what type of water retention is teld Jy

the site t~ey have been unable to show any

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ecoogical cC1nection 1tith regard to wildlife

there was a Woodcock seen on the site There

is absolutely -- and its amazing to me hat

tr~ere is a void

JUDGE STEIN But isnt the test a

nexus a significant nexus not this

sJbstantial inpacts est that I hear wove]

through some of your statements and T dont

-- when I go back and I look at the Kennedy

opinion you knot] and some of he hings t1at

are cited I dont necessarily see that that

test requires the level of proof that youre

stggesing is reqJired ny hat test So

perhaps you could explain to me based on the

Kennedy opinion how you get from there to the

level of proof Lhat you re a5~ing for f just to

establish jurisdiction

MS WILCHER Certainly

JUDGE STEIN I mean I we re not

here to determire you know penalty or

anything else were here just to figure out

if youre even i~ tbe door

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MS IILCHER Yes understand

Ie 1 1 what Justice Kennedy said was to talk

abmlt he fJay the Corps nac typically

regulated wetlalds and then to say absent

more speciic regulations however the Corps

must establish a significant nexus on a case

by case bBSS wler it seeks to regulate

wetlands based on adjacency to non-navigable

tributaries and then it goes on to say given

the potential over breath of the Corps yen s

regulations this showing is necessary to

avoid unreasoDable applications of the

statute

The justice wrote I no~ just a

~exus if the COurt had only said there has to

be a nexus then o~e would have a different

burden of proof in this case the court said

a significant nexus and we have to assnne

that a significant nexus is meaningful that

those words mean SOIEethi1g So theres a -- at

least a two-step process One to show that

theres a nexus and the other is to show that

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its significant and that is what the record

is devoid 0 in this particular case

JUDGE SlEIN But its not a

significa1t impact its a significant nexus

MS iILCHER Thats right a

significant nexus And the sigrificart rexus

must -- and if YOu read through the rest of

the case it talks abolt hm -- that in order

to regulate land as water there must be some

type of impact on the water

JUDGE SHEEHAN Justice Kennedy

also uses a phrase that think is pertinent

here r he says that the how -- how the proof is

determined has to be done in a practical way

ard i almost sounds as if what you I re

requiing is that the governrrent set up flow

meers or pour a vial of discharge into a

ditch and see if it eventually ends up in the

Chesapeake or do something on a very

impractical scale to prove ~he connectio~

MS WILCHER You know this is a

really important issue The governrrent has to

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do sOIething oJer than to make allegations r

especially in a case where youpoundre dealing with

constitutional issues such as privae property

rights and how one car jse his own property

or hers and in this case I there are lots of

things tha~ EPA historically has done for

ypcal NPDES cases But when you before he

Board on a NPDES case theres at least some

measure If they had had pictures that there

las a plurne comir_g off of this wetlar~d if

theyd done any flow calculations if theyd

had any physical chemical biological

evidence of a nexJS and a signiican- nexus to

the navigable waters which again( are not the

ditches they are the ditches that flow to the

creek that flow 0 the creek that flow 0 the

navigable waters j then it would be a different

case but that is not what has happened in

this case

JUDGE IJOLGAST Well as you say

the goverIl1lent obviously has the burden of

proof i~ a~ eLfo~cerne~t case l but is this the

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same type of evidence that you thirk a

_a~Qowne~ should Lndertake I mean obviouslY

they have the burden to obtain a permit where

there is potential jurisdiction

I~S ~JILCaER Btt if the person

doesnt obtain a permit ~~ and the government

thinks that theyre i~ error again the

government always has the burden of proof

JUDGE vJOLGAST Right but J 1m

talking about getting a -- yOJ know starding

in the landowners shoes before weve ever

gotten to an enforceme1t case it -- it I

mean I ~h~nk theres some iSS48 with getting

back to the Supreme Court case that one of

he things that were concerned about - at

least lJustice Scalia pointed to was how much

evidence time money it takes to vJOrk

thro~gh ~h~s process and it sou~ds like the

yeLl know r the advocacy here is that there

should be more not less

)15 ~JLC1ER There stou1d be

something dore by the government in thi s

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regayd to actually prove a nexus and a

sgnificant nexus ard in this ease I canr

assuye you Judge Wolgast that the l~downer

has go~e above and beyond the oall of duty

going to the Corps time after ti~e having the

Corps ou to tr~e site and having spent talk

about the time and money and investmert having

his case as understand it having spent

over $800 000 in litiga~ion costs to try to

pr-otect what was legal at tl~e time that it was

aone and so -- so there is a burden

The governme1t has the burden aid

in this case in this par~icular case they

failed to meel it I don I t know why I haven [t

been involved that lor~g ~ would speculate

tl1at by the time he Rapanos case cane along

it V~as jlSt too hard to go back and find the

type of probative evidence that would carry

the cay_

I do not necessaily thirk that

its an impossible tas~ There have been ot~er

cases that ve reviewed aihere the goverrUent

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has irtroduced evidence of the poundows tr~e

amount of drainage that has occurred how much

water might be taken up by a wetland area$ but

none of that was done in thi s particular case

and again we can only speculated why that

was the case

JDDGE STIN How does tr_s S~xth

Circuit decision in the Cundl f f matter bear on

your view that the -- you need some sort of

laboratocy araysis to prove h~s7

MS ~VILCHER in that

particular easel you dont have as I ~ecall

the -- the disarce roIT a navigable waer

tha t we have here [ and I think the farther you

are away from a navigable water the harder it

is 0 prove tha~ theres any impact on that

navigable water and in this -- again in this

case they are far away from a navigable

water and I think toe reaSC1 tha~ we don

see the p=oof is because its not there itS

not developable and that is why it is not

Cere Did yOl wart De to ~~

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JUDGE STEIN I do wact you to get

the credibility question

MS bull WILCHER I dian t t want to

forget your - shy

JUDGE STEIN No while we we~e on

this topic why cor t t yOJ addres s the

credibility question

MS vILCHER I think its an

important question IC t S a real important

question and that is simply that s even though

the regtllatior~s do provide that typicaily when

the ALJ hears the witnesses and makes

determinations 0 ~~eir credib~~ity that

typically this Board will defer to that

However in this case a carefctl review of the

record shows that the ALJs just got it wrong

and it is within this Boards prerogative to

look at the -- look at t1e factors tha

that the ALJs used in making their

deterninatior and make a judgreJt aboJt

wl1ether those factors are sufficient

A couple of examples There was a

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mar who had Iived OT the farm for h~rty years

who testified that he I d walked over the farm

for thir~y years and testified that in fact

Ithe streams J or the drainage di tches were

intermittent in nature and did not carry water

I - 1 h d - a11 th e trre bull e __ t e JU ge ~n tHe QeClS10n

said well I think hes a nice man I think

hes beholden to the Smi ths f and he was just

Ollt or a wa so totally just discounted his

testimony saying he WBS just out on a walkJ

as if that meant t~at somebodywQuldnt no~ice

DGE ~vOGAST ~ Are yot saying

though that it would have to carry water all

tre time

MS vHLCHER No no But but

it f s clearly -- is Eot a navigable water lor

it is adjacent nor is the wetland adjacent to

a navigable water in this case It flows

anything t~at =lows opound= of t~at a~ea that has

been considered to be wetland by the

goverr-Uent flows -rxough drainage ditches

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that are only intermittent in nature and

~herefore are ~ot co~sidered to be navigable

watsYs clea~ly urder the Rapanos decison

JUDGE SHEEHAN But if the man

walking the land said that they were

intermittent and youre saying intermittent

doesnt matter

I~S IgtlILCHER Were saying that -shy

Judge Cha~eski as I recall said tha~ there

was a c01tinuOU5 flow of 5088 kind isnt that

-- d~~lt J~dge Char~eski say that

WOLGAST lrJell Justice

Scalia said that even after that -shy

HS WILCHER Right right

JUDGE WOLGASl That that

seasonal flow could establish jurisdiction

~nder the pluralitoes test

148 t-JILCEER BJt there s not beenj

seascnal flow established -=-n this case Yot

have somebody going out there en particular

days after these ditches have been dug which

we all know alter the flow in drainage after

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the eLi tches are dug ftJaer goes to the lowest

level and so theres going to be more water

draining OU= of there t~a~ ~here would have

been in 1998 and 1999 and that -- that is

clear ~tat ~tere is no ev~de~ce ac the time

this was done they were -- they were anything

but inerYlitten and here l s no j1risdictiola1

connection that they have proven to date

JUDGE ~JOLGAST And what do you

think they would have had to have shown to

show seasonal flow

MS ~IILCHER Well they could

have done something more than go out there

nine times over tbe course of a year rrhey

could have had aerial photographs taken Ihey

cod have -- weil first yOl have the uSGS -shy

you have the USGS maps as showing its

inteYrnittent and theres lierally no

testimony en the record right now to show that

theyre anything but interrrdtent Ot-her than

to say that if somebody goes out there ~ine

Cimes and looks at the flow and sees water

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then -- agair~1 keeping ir mind this was years

atel 1_8 dainage d=- tches tver-e dtg ha t were

channeling more water into the old one through

seven drainage areas there B nothing tof

establish what was the~e at ~he time in 1998

a~d 1999

JUDGE VlOLG~rST And I think

isnt this what courts are struggling with in

the sense that its -- its one thing to say

~ts ~~ter~itte~tf b~t is that good enough I

mean I dont you have to figure out just how

much flow in you know what period of time

or the idea that -- I dont -- if someoae

says t~at its intermitte~t Irr not sure that

means its ir~ or out without further evidence

MS WILCHER Right Well that

shows really the that shows arguably a

cQnYlecion Bu how rrlcr =ow is going through

there whether sediment loading is going

through there whether theres an ecological

connection through there all these whethers

lead to whether t~e~e is a sig~ificant nex~s

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to a navigable water and if you look at some

of the other cases ~here has been that kiLd of

information introduced and in this case there

is none

JUDGE vJOLG1ST hhat case are you

thinking of

MS vJILCiER I thirki1g maybe

t was the Precon case ir - - in the Eastern

District of Virginia Its on appeal in the

Fourth Circuit I may r~ve been ~hat BJt

I 11 be happy to provide some cases -- a case

or cases later on that show the type of

evidence that tas been introdJced because I

remember reading about them and cant think of

the name right now

TlDGE SHEEIiAN I Vant to go back

for a moment to Judge Stein J s question about

credibility

gtIS CLCHER YOS

JUDGE SHEEHAN So ALJ Moran sat

through days and days of testimony on the

bench a lot of pecple ~n ~~at witness chair

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Hes there hes on he scere hes

~nterpreting the way the witnesses speak and

their basic credibility which you can only do

face to face in that way Wha~ is it about

what happened there that causes you to think

theres sOne way or some reason for as not to

credit the typ~cal deferehce we would extend

There must be some exception here that we ~eed

0 know about for that to happen

MS WLCHER tAJel1 r ard there are

a few facts that I think would be relevant to

your consideration in that case In the first

instance some of these wi~nesses that the ALJ

deter~ined were not credible --Jere stipJlated

as being expert vtitnesses and hat shows at

least sorre level of credibility in the mind of

the government w th regaro to whetJ~er they

were experts in the field

Second some of the criticisms

in one case a criticism that an ALJ made of an

expert wi tness was that he had not beer~ 0 the

site often enocgh yet vith one of the

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gover~ors -~ goverG~entls expert witnesses

that person had been to the site less times

t1an t1e Srith Farms expert witress A1C SO

there is a confounding sense that in this

particular case for whatever reason if the

experts agreed ~ th r~e goverr_rne1t f they were

credible and that if they di~~t they were

not

It just seems highly unlikely that

every single witness iltroduced by Smith

Far~s and Ive had the pleasure of working

wi th Mr Boyd and it lS just I think

statistically urEkely that one could End

that many unmiddotmiddotmiddotcredible witnesses and in thisf

case I do not believe that they were not

credib2e I believe they were as credible ald

as I mentioned in some cases were stipulated

in beirg expert w~t~esses ~~

JUDGE SHEEHAN So you didnt

believe they were

HS WICHER I did not bel ieve

they were not credible so I believed that

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they were credible And -- and it is sOIEewhat

confoundirg other than to say that the

closest thing that I could figure out was that

if hey supported t~e governments viev tey

were credible and if they did not support the

governments Vlew I they were not

CJDGE trrOGAST But dien f t Judge

Moran find that -- and to generalize ---- that

the witnesses failed to establish that to the

exent t1ere were weta1ds they -lere isolated

by on-hydric soil lasnt that a central part

of his credibility determination

MS ~vILCHER Well trat S O1e of

the findings that Judge Moran made but in

this paricular case keep in mind its not

Smi Parms tha-c has 0 show that there is a

break or a barrier -- its the government who

has to show that the~e is a con~ection

JUDGE liOLGAST Of

understand Right

HS IIILCHER So theres cerainly

pockets of non-hyd~ic soil in tte area and

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for SOle reaSCl EPA _ ar~d again this is just

ki~d of amazing to me

spent this long on that EPA did not go out

there and do a typical delneaion of the

site and this is something that is cypically

done Its amazing that EPA did not issue a

cease and desist order as soon as t~ey ~~ew

abouc it There are many things that to me

are amazing about this case that quite

frarky I are he easor that I came nere to

argue it Because lIm a strong believer in

protecting the Clean Water Act and in

protec~ing lteta-ds and you mayor may lOot

know from my history I I bear a lot of scars

from having trIown myself in the body of

wetlands protection bac~ in the days ana I

still believe its an important thing to do

But I also believe its important to follow

~~e rule of law and ~n chis case Mr Boyd

made every effort to follow the rule of law

and I bel ieve he did and when it did not work

out tte way that EPA wanted the law to be

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this enforcement action came forward at a

time -- and had they intervened early on i~

t~is case they cou~d have stopped They knew

months before the work was cOITpleted -- hey

knew months before the work was completed that

there was ditching and draining going on

t~ere and trey did no move in quickly to try

to resolve that case ar~d they could have -shy

they could have stopped most of the so called

harm that they are now alleging but chose not

to do so ~~ey dd ~ot do a deineaLion they

did not inroduce proof that this particular

part of property has a significant nexus to

jurisdictional waters of the United States to

a navigable water of the United States I and

thats the reason I~ he~e

JJDGE VJOLGASI I see your time is

expired if theres no other questions

MS WILCHER Thank you

MS S~J~ET~ Good morning You=

Honors My name is Stefania Shaliat and I

represent Region III in this matter

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specifically the complainants who are the

division directors for the Environmental

Assessment a1d Irr~ovation Divisio1 and he

vater Protection Division I at EPA Regio11 III

With me at counsel table Id like to

i~troduce DO1la Carner-Tal f who is regulatory

co-msel for the Nc-folk District Army Corps of

Engineers and Karen ~lendelowskl gt who is with

the office of general cour~sel and also we

have a disirglshed g1e8 1$ d lke to

introd~ce -- si~~ing behind me is Dr Dennis

Whigham with the Smithsonian Environmental

Resea=cr Cente- Your Honors responders have

do~e ~~ if I ca~ get in a couple points -- a

good job of obfuscating what are really very I

very simple facts here The simple facts are

hat these are tllelands perfouuiq docurrenced

functions that are delivered to tributaries

These wetlands are adj acent physically

trose trib-ltaries f ard those

tr lbtacies flow to traditiorally navigable

waters to the West 2600 feet away to the

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East 4200 feet away In other words the are

wetlands adjacent to tributaries that low

waki1g clstance to tr-adi ional1y navigable

waters These Vetlfu1ds were jurisdictional

under SWANCC as respondent conceded in Clean

~later Act Appeal mmber 05-05 when respondent

reseved argll1snt on jtrisdicto1 but chose

not to raise it un~il there was a change in

case law They continue to be jurisdictional

under any standard enunciated by he Supreme

Court in Rap~~os The qJan~u~ of proof offeree

by the complaina1ts i1 this matter not only

exceeds preponderance of the evidence it

exceeds any quantum of proof required by

Rapanos In fact t far exceeds it Another

thirg that is obscured in the ar9J11ent here by

the respondents is that up until 2007

respondents had a different set of expert

witnesses It las tlose expert witresses that

coroplainalts stipulated 1heir expertise was

in wetlands identification and the connection

of wetlands to waters of the uniced States

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Ihose witnesses largely agee with

complainac1t I s version of the facts on the

ground ae-d i wasnt until 2007 when

respondents hired a new set of expert

witnesses that any real dispute arose about

what exactly was going on in the site There

was dispute about ithat hat nean f but not

exacly what the physical characteristics of

t21e si te ere

J1DGE WOLGAST Counsel coud you

address Ms wilchers points that while there

may be flow moderation carbon sequestration

there may be some evidence that the government

hasnt shmlTI a nexus between those

characterist~cs and the ~avigable waters

vIS SHAME Sure First of alI

the evi6erce of Je fuYlctions beirg performed

on this S1 te is not speculative There are

photo after photo and testimony after

testimony the governments evidence is based

or established scientific literature that

identifies something called field indicators

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-- physical characteristcs on the ground -shy

that when identified correlate to a specific

functi~n being formed by the wetland In this

case there are three Tr~e first was fow

noderaiou and one of the physical

characteristics thez-e would be such things as

ponding you see a lot of later being

captured in low levels depressional levels

withir the wetland Tle record conta1s dozens

of photos of that The secord is

denitrification and that is the microbes

llptaking nitrogen in the soil That indicator

is something called modelirg i1 he soil It sI

a red spotch Essentially it IEeans that iron

is there That evidence comes not only from

the complainants but if one were to reviel

the soi 18 expert froIT respordent Dr Parkers

O~ I-fr arlter f s firs expe~t repo-t ir

20C3 he describes modeling in his sails The

third is primary production That is the1

contribution of a food source Taking

transforming organics that a2e in the _- in

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nature into a food source in water that then

tralsports that food source dowYlsream to

higher trophic organisms The best evidence of

that actually comes from one of respondents

experts Dr Cahoot 1110 photographed it

leaving the site I cant find the photo at

the marneYlt f blt I 11 describe what he says

Foaing a he confluence of the ditch

leaving the property with ditches along the

property boundary near the railroad This foam

vias also sampled and examined microscopically

--- it contained primary plant debris some

peller ald rllnero-lS sma oil droplets These

oil droplets in my opinion were probably

plant oils derived froI decomposition of the

organic matter in this area That description

correlates perfectly with the description in

the testimony in tZ1e remand hearng about what

primary production s the transport of

particulate and dissolved organics downstream

as a food sOJce So the -Jse 0 the -- t~1e

functions this case are not speculative

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theyre clearly being per-formed theyre

clearly being cocC1ented as beir~g perforrred on

this wetland Theres also evidence of the

hydrologic connection between this wetland

the ibuaries and the downst-eam

trad~tionally r~avigable waers Again that

comes both frOIE complainant ~ s experts as well

as some of respondents experts one of

respondent I s experts described tr_at hydrologic

co~nectio3 as such He descrbed the wetland

as a table tcp on which somebody pours water

the water comes off of that table top into

the ditches and then tansports down to the

taditional1y navigable waers The sane

expert lgtIr Wolf also agreed that the

wetlands on the site were in fact

hydrologically conYlected to the di tches wr~ich

forrr tributaries and lJlere n fact adjacs1t to

them So we also have fUTIction ard we have

transport Now with respect to Ms Wilchers

corrment -shy

JUJGE WOLGAS~ is YoDr

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posi tion on the type of evidence that you

need to show nexus of

characteristics you see on site to the

navigable waters

gt1S SHAtvET My positio1 is tha we

met it exactly and I would refer you to

Justice Kennedys opinion Justice Kenledy

ide~tified the type of functions that he would

consider to form a significant nexus

traditional navigable waters and those are

p~ecisely the functions that were identified

on this site Specifically Justice Ker-nedy

refers to slowirg COt-C of surface runoff r

filtration and purification -- that would be

in on 547 US 773 to 75 He sta~es with respect

to weta1ds f the rationale for the Cleal ~fater

Act regulation is as the Corps as recognized

that vetlands can perforrl cri tica2 functioES

re2-ated to the integrity of other waters

functions such as pollutant trapping -- in

other words l denirifcatior~ -- flood control

flow moderation and ruriOff storage

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Ther-efore the types of functions that we

docrraented as beng performed or this site are

precisely the ypes of unctiors tha Jusice

Ken1edy ide1tified J in his opinion as the

type of functions that form a significant

nexus

JUDGE SHEEHAN In in your

brief on page 46 you say that the Kennedy

Test requiEs weta1ds cont-ibutions to the

physical c1emical or biologic in-egrity of

doOrIlstream waters -- is it nor or Hand Your

brief says or

MS SHAMET The brief says II or -shy

JUDGE SHEEHAN Because if it can

De just one of those -shy

SHA4ET I believe Justice

Kennedy did use and however it is c2ear

that he does not require a function to

contribute to all ~hree factors and chats

clear from the function he identifies

JUDGE SHEEHAN Then why did he say

and

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MS SHAMET I think he said and II

but he had a comraa and a1d he was -eferring

to a list of examples rather than a standard

i1ith respect to Ms Wilchers cormnent that we

dont have any photographs of pltLnes as I

indicatedf one were to trt 0 R Ex 28 f

which llnfortunatey I can f find right now I

ltlhich is Respondent 1 s Exhibit 28 from the

first hearing in 2003 Dr Cahoon provides a

picture of that plume himself I would also

point out that with respect to

denitriication one wouldnt expect to see a

pInrr -- thats the exact point its to hold

Che nitrogen on the wetland -lot send it

downstream

JUDGE STEIN How is the Rapanos

significant nexus test d_fferent if at all

=rom the nexus i~ Rivervew Rverside

Bayview

MS SHAMEl Riverside Bayvie

assumed a nexus based upon adjacencYi in this

case lJustice Kennedy has asked that we

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actually go forward and establish that the

nexus exists rather than simply assuming itI

based On adjacency

JUDGE SHEEHamp~ on page 41 of your

brief you quote some of the tesciroo1Y of the

first ALJ hearing I which sounds a lit~le more

entative to me tha1 youre souidir_g today

about the substa1tial nexus test being met

The brief~ at page 41 reads that these

wetlands are more likely to perform

denitrification more likely to allow for

suspended settlements -- sediments to settle

out~ more likely to support a different suite

of wildlife species that to me is

lar-guage ~rats ~ot qui~e as powerful as

saying there is a substantial nexus met here

that just sounds -- can yo~ address what seems

to be more diffident language in your brief

than what youre articulating today

MS SHAMET Well as Your Honor

pointed out T the language that you pointed to

in the brief is from the 2003 hearing before

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tr~e Rapanos case As the Board is avlare J he

EPP~ agreed and argued that the evidence to

satisfy Rapanos had not been fl11y developed

as of 2003 and this precisely why we

requested a remand

JUDGE SHEEHAN But youre cit i ng

it here filed long after Rapanos as if its

still your position

MS SHAME~ I cited a lot of other

evidence as lJell Your Honor incLuding the

testimory of Mr Rhodes he testi~cny of Dr

~fhigham and the testimony the f1Tther

estimony of Hr Mart So while that is a

piece of evidence it is certainly not the

only evidence cited in our brief

JUDGE WOLGAS~ ~o go back to the

point you were making earlier about how the -shy

in essence the three-part test is the same

type of evidence yo~ would look to to

establish sign~ficant nexus ard Justice

Kernedy did seer to speak to hat saying much

the sarre evidence I referring to tre Corps ssect

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delineation manual type evidence should

P8nnit the establishment of a significant

nexus witr navigable wates

particularly if supplemented by further

ev~dence abou~ the significance of the

tributaries to which the wetlands are

cO11ected How does the gove-nment interpret

the latter part of that quote

MS SILllltlECmiddot I think that the

government needs to show and has shown in

this case that there is an ability of those

trihttayies Co conect the wetlands to a

traditionally navigable water in such a way

that the poundtnctions are delivered In this case

we have certainly shown the hydrologic

cO1nect=-o1 some of respondents expe-ts have

agreed with us that that connection exists and

tha there is sufic8Ylt ~hat there is

water exchange there and weve also shown

that heres proxirrity here again these are

walking distance to traditionally navigable

waters this is not the Rapanos case where it

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traveled 32 miles So we think we have met

that burden here by sho~Jing the hydrologic

connection and showing that these tributaries

are capable of delivering the function With

respect to cr-edibi=-ity and he points that

Your HOlors asked of AS Wilcher I would just

point out tha~ lTudge lvlorans credibility

determination was based on demeanor and also

on the facts of this case An important fact

to note for insta11ce is in the firstF

r~earing in 2003 respondent I s soils exper

who laid a g=id fOJnc 53 ou 55 sarnples

hydric The only two that were non-hydric had

JUDGE STEIN I couldnt hear you

MS SHApoundT Had 53 Oelt of 55 soil

sa~ples he identified as hydric in the site

soEs or ei ther side In the secord heaocilg

Dr Pierce testified that there was

essentially non-hydric soils everywhere And

on cross-examination he was asked didn t youI

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find any hydric soils and he said oc yeah

I found them I just didnt click on my GS

locator and ider~tify where they were and I

just didn It report them He only reported the

non-hydric soEs That is the kind of thing

that happened that caused Jtdge l-loran 0 find

a lack of c-edibility vvlth respect to 9r

Straw Dr Straws expert report disc1ssed

undulations in the landscape that he

interpreted to mean ere were no wetlands

tlere On the sand he conceded trat there

were no u1dulaions on tr~e landscape -- he had

mis~nterpreted the aeria= photo More

importantly he conceded ~hat he knew about

ha t erroy before the hearing and leverf

corrected it until cross-exa~ination Judge

Moran had ample basis for finding no

credibility on those witnesses

JUDGE SEIN Is it your view tha~

the Board has no authority to overrale an

ALJs credibility determination

MS SHAl-1ET No YOJr Honor the

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Board reviews he case de novo lffuile the

Board certainly defer to the ALJ r s credibili ty

determination what I run saying that in this

case t~ere is no basis for overturn~~g it

JUDGE STEIl If we were to

overturn it -- a credibility determination

what kinds of factors r it your view s1ould 18

be taking into aCCo4nt

MS S~~~ET I would think you

oelld be looking to see whether or not the ALJ

has a rational basis oh gosh I hate to use

legal standards like that -- but some sort of

bass or hich he based his credibiliy

deerrtination that he explained why there was

a lack of credibility and I think in this

case he did so amply

JUDGE SHEEHAJ If Ms v~i 1 cher S

correct characterizing the way testimony

cedibclity went i soanced almost like a

hundred percent credit to government

witnesses and practically zero to

respondens witnesses f tratg acctrate

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jus stipulat-=-ng 0 trat assumption - - if

t~atfs accu~ate would that be a basis fer not

allcwing deerence to Jdge Morans

credibility determinations if its so

lopsided

ocs SH_~ET In this case I would

say no just simply because in this case we

have a classic battle of the experts I but

oddly enough the ba~~ling experts are al on

respondents side And )hat we have are

experts whD ~estif~ed in 2007 who flat

disagreed wit the testimony of respordent S

experts in 2003 without any atterrpt by the

2007 experts or respondents to reconcie

that testiITony Given that circumstance it sf

not surp-isirg that the experts in 2007 s

testimony were given very litte weight One

of the things that Hs ltJilcher referred 0 was

unfettered access to the site If anyone had

u~fettered access to the site~ it was

respondent and yet there are no photos in the

record showing the streaL~S leaving the site

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dry except during a drought

JUDGE VOLGAST But her point was

tha t the goverrunert ~as the bmiddoturden here

MS SHlHEI And the burden -- he

government has met the burden In fact in

this case the preponderance 0 the evidence

literally the only evidence other than

testirrony by the site owner testimony by

someone who walks around a three-hu1dred-acre

site hunting and looki1g for damage in che

fieds which lS what he estified he was

doing there and photographs taken during a

d--ought he oV9rtlhe=Iilg evidence is that the

waters do flow on a regular basis First of

all these waers have been napped the

waters leaving the site -- as flovving water by

USGS for hal f a century

JUDGE vIOLGAST Yo mentioned that

the waters flow on a regular basis Is that a

conir~uols bas~s

MS SHAMET We would say it would

be part of every year Your Honor

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JUDGE SHEEHAJ Tlen W1Y 18 that

necessarily continual The Scalia Test now

that veve 901e to continual flow is jilst

that -- there has to be continual flow He

says even the least significant of the lake

river ocealS or streams the four water

bodies the least significant steams has to

have COlticua you

repeatedly say - make other instances that

are to me a lot less cor~fdent t1~an what

Scalia seems to deilland You say page 31 the

drains flow at least part of every yeari page

35 at least SOme portion of every year at

least at least at least it comes up

repeated-ly in YOlr brief vlhich couid be just

one rain event So theres one rain at least

it flows one or two days after the rain aod

thats certainly a far cry I would argue

from continual So can you address the seeming

gap between your statemen~s and what Scalia

seems to demand as far as continual flow

~S SHk1ET Ie would state that

Your

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Justice Sca~ia described re1ativey permanent

wateYs He made pretty clear wrat teose were

He did~t require any specific n~~er of days

of flow -- what he did say was common sense

and common usage distinguished between a wash

and a seasoral river and tha f s in foot1ote

five respondent likes to use the term

intermitten~ a lot but the one thing it is

clear from footnote 5 is that Justice Scalia

does not give the term intermittent any

ocegulatoY import trJhy Because he

specifically decli~ed ~o define it

JUDGE SHEEHAN Why doesnt he give

it regulatory import when at least seven

tirres by ely count in his opinion he says

iEtermi tent waters do not cca11 fy as

jurisdictional -- he even calls it an oxymQron

ac one point

~S SHAMET Even though he does

not -- he declines ~o defihe it He says that

thee are defiritions 0 nterrnttent bu he

sees 10 reason to identify what tlose are

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here I and then he specifically says I We have

no occasion in this litigation to decide

exacty whe1 he cryirg up of a streambed is

continuous and frequent enough to disqualify

tle channel as a water 0 the Cnited States

~jUDGE SHEEI-IAN I know we can t -shy

aobody knows what intermitter~t meaJs with

aOsol~te rigor thas obviously subject to

interpretation But the fact is he

contlnmiddotually rejects intermitten~ waters

whatever that Ireans as jurisdictional a1d

you say intermittent doesnt matter I dont

know how yot can say lat in the face cf al

his statements that intermittent does w~tter

HS SHAMET I think the evidence

dernorstrates pretty clearly that ther-e is

regular flow on a regular basis in these

wateTs A good exaTIple

JUDGE SHEEH1ll~ Im not talking

about the eviderce 1lT talking about the

standard

MS SHAIjET The standard lS that

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there has to be a relatvely pe-mar_ent tvater

It cant be a wash it cant be someLhing that

flows only occasionally only in response co

a very strong rainfall i~ cant be a gutter

It has to be a geographic feature ~~d in this

case we have USGS mapping these as geographic

features conainng Vlaer for over ffty

years which if thatis not relatively

permanent I In not qui te sure what would be

JUDGE SHEEHAN C-ne1 how else - shy

why else -- why is it that you cannot muster

more behind your argument that these are

lowing dyains tha1 just saying at least part

of the year continually You never say its

continual you never say its relatively

permanert ane not interrrittert you seem to

stay away from saying that and it seems

purposeful because it happens so frequently

1 S SHAHET ~J e dont

over~exaggerate our evidence we say what it

is And in this case what we r re saying is Ie

agree hsse styeams dry up for part of ~he

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year VJe f ve never argued that these were

perennial streams because theyre not They

are streams that only flow for part of the

year But part of the year is good enough

1nder Jtstice Scalia f s test These are rot

washes theyre ~ot t ckles When they flow

t1ey flow As Jlldge Mo-an pointed out I the

record is replete wi th photos of these streams

flowing and floling wi th a good arnount ofI

water them Now for exanpJe -shy

JUDGE SHEEHlll Flowing at least

part of the year right

MS SHAME~ Flowirg at least part

of the year If I could get the photo up An

example is ~his series of photos~ if we can

get it up If not Ill jus give tre exhibit

numbers Not a perfect picture This photo was

taken in December 2006 As you can see

theres visible flow in the stream A1d this

is Complainants Exhibit 328 co~plai~ants

Ex-hibit 308 - sarre sreart same location you

can tell by the cross January 07 J still

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lt- Low~ng

JUDGE SHEElI1N ~Iha t does tha t

realy prove YOJ cOl-=d go out right after a

rain as apparently happenedi apparently Dr

Whigham went out afte rain irw 07 ard Judge

Moran noted that he was out two days after a

big rain so naturally the drains were full

DJ showing us occasiQral ~-

IS SHAlyenjET If you can show four

sraight lonths of floN f think youre

probaby doing pretty good This is O1e of

respondent I S exhibits This is Dr Straws

photo ta~er_ in February 2007 This s

Respondents Exhibit 57pp

JUDGE VJOLGASI I (IT sory 1 whose

testimony was ~his

MS SHAMET Dr Straws The other

~h~ng that is documeGted -- Im just going to

go ahead and give you April April 2007 still

flow This is Complainants Exhibit 391 and

just ia case were llorried about March e

dont have March 2007 we have March 2003

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JIDGE SHEEHAN What drain is that

MS SHAMET This is Complainants

Exhibit 102L

JUDGE SHEEHAN What drain

MS SHAMET This is the portion of

drait six- seven as it leaves the si-se

crosses unde~~ea~h the railroad tracks to che

west and leaves the site We would also noce

chat in che 2003 hearing it was established

ard Judge ChaYlJeski acc6ped ordinary hig

watermark for the duration of the streams

leaving the site from the time they leave the

site cntil the time they wa~king distance

away hit traditionally navigable waters Now

whIle Justice Scalia said that existence of an

ordinary high waternark in and of itself does

not estabJish jurisdicion it does remair a

fact on the ground that shows the preseTlce of

f~c~J O-1r b~ief did cite in a footnote a

number of cases that describe what an ordinary

high water mark means and what it basically

means is that theres water there on enoJgh

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of a regular basis that theres no

vegetation and Dr Straw in poirtig at that

photo 57pp poined out that there was an

ordinary high watermark there e believe that

we 1ave s~ovm t2lougt t~1at eviderce as well is

that theres a regularity of flow through

these water bodies tJi th respect to Ms

~iilcher f s suprise that EA did not issue a

cease and desist order we in fact did we

issued an admif~istrative order n 2000 I

doat have the record citatio~ with me bu~ I

believe it was testified to in the 2003

tearilg In addi tion tlith respec 0 YIs

Wilchers conunent that EPA knew about the

operation before it was completed and didnt

intervere ~rat is also not correct In Culy

of 1999 EPA contacted respondent and

requested a site visit A- that time the work

was not done l6 site visit was scheduled in

-- they did the scheduling In July and the

visit was schedJled in September and in

August respor~dent brought equipment to the

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site and finished it up to present EPA with a

fai t accompli Couple other points There I s

bee~ a ~w~er of debates i~ t~e b~ie= about

briefs about whether or not there are in

fact wetlands on the sice and whether or not

they extend all the way to the tributaries

First of all ~othi~g in Rapanos altered the

EEe~gy and Water Developmert Appropriations

Act of 1993 Public Law 102377 106 Statutory

at Large 1315 in which Congress directed the

Corps of Eng~leers to use t~e 1987 wetlands

delineation nanual until a replacement manual

was established the courts have

recognized deference to the Corpss 1987

manual as the agencys interpretation of its

OvT regulatiors That manual was applied in

this case That manual when applied in this

case identifies wetlands throughout the site

JUDGE SHEEHAN A~e these -- are

these wetlands these draircs are tl_ey fed by

a1Y other source than rain

MS SHAMET No Your Honor These

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wetlands are what are called the top of the

watershed and this is why water flows in two

directions off of this site -- it flows both

west and east because its at the top of the

watershed

JUDGE SHEEHAN So any water on the

site its all rain-fed

MS SHAMET Yes The seasonality

of it however I can be established through

testimony regarding how the plants on this

site interact with that precipitation And

that testimony discusses the relationship

between whats called leap out and

transpiration In other words when the leaves

are on the trees the trees are uptaking water

from the ground -- from the groundwater table

and the groundwater table decreases and

thats why you see lower levels of water in

the summer During the winter when the leaves

are off the trees the trees are not

transpiring yet -- the water table rises and

thats why these are seasonally flowing

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s~reams and seasoca~ systems

JUDGE SHEEHAN Is there any

testirtony in the record abott the frequency of

the rain If rain is it is the source is

rain something on this property that occurs

f if -y times a year I a hundred t iITes a year t

two ~ines a year

MS SHAME= YOur Honor the

2003 record I believe there was an exhibit

and I apologize that I canZt name the exhibit

number for you right now that idenifies what

a one year storm is f what a three year stOrIT

is~ and l-lha a five year storm is in that

county and I apologize that I cant come up

with the exhibit number for you right now

JUDGE SHEEHAN vlell whats your

recolecion about it irhat it says eve if we

dont know the exhibit right now 111 just

trying to get a bead on how -- whether its

typically dry or typically wet there With

rain

MS SHAI-fET Your Hono f I cant

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recall I believe its under a~ inch -- around

a~ inch bu~ ca~t say foy su~e I look at

a lot of these for a let opound dipoundfeent areas

and I don~t want to get one mixed up with the

other

JUDGE ~]OGAST vTose testimony

we6 you reerrlg to gtThen you were discusslg

seasonality

MS SHAMET That was testimony of

Mr Martin It is at Remand Transcript 1912

~~d Rema~d Transcript 354

JUDGE STEI f he Board we~e to

conclude tha the evidence in this case meets

the Kennedy est is it necessary for theI

Board to consider whether the evidence meets

the plurality test

18 8HAMET Its the posiio1 of

EPA hat satisfying either test will establish

geographic jurisdiction under the Clean Water

Act As the Board noted all courts that have

so held have held tha~ if one meets re

Kennedy Tests then t~ats satised Ir

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a~swer actually to one of your questions I

1think Judge Steir there is one case It S an

unreported case out of the District of Hawaii

that has held that the Kennedy Test is lircited

to isolated waters and hat Y0l otherwise

apply to Scalia Test and that is Sierra vs

COJ1ty of Honolulu 2008 us Distcict EX=S

64262 1 and we would just note that that case

is inconsistent with the governing circuit

lali ts tle 9h Circuit and we believe its

inconsistent with Headlesburg and Moses but

you did ask lthether there was any case that

discussed he Sca=--~a test and that is the

only one at least Im aware of To answer

your question we believe t11at satisfying the

Kennedy Iest wOll-~d be sufficient and it would

not be necessary to reach the Scalia Test i

however we do beLeve thas weve satisfied

boh in this case and that ei ther test will do

it All through

JUDGE SHEEHAN Can you poi~t us iL

the record to what may not be a gap but it

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looks like a bit of a gap at least from the

briefs There I s a lot of testimony -- a lot of

discussion in your brief about the history

the history on the site water on the site

for exa~pe a 1953 p~cto s~ows di~ch O~e had

water I a 1937 photo one two and four had

water 1920 f USGS map had five -- ditch five

had water And then so we leap from sixty f

seventy years ago to the present decade

oegirning in 1999 middotJ~el a buner of inspectio1B

occurred mainly in 99 I and there was some

hopscotching and then they e~ded in 2007 So

he~e --- at least from the bries treres a

fairly big gap between the very very historic

taps and photos I and then ~he 1999-on

inspections and That they showed What about

the intervening

HS SHlIiCET - believe tha~ we also

discussed the USGS maps in 1994 which were

the most recent maps prior to activity As

YOUY HO1ort s aware from the Boards decisio1

in Bricks its inCUInbent upon us to show what

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the wates Jere lLlte before the activity f not

after the activity

JUDGE SHEE~~ Right bue the

before here is well before Thats my

~estion I dont see much except for that 94

map

MS SHAMET 1Ind we also used

aeria photography from 1994 and 1995 to

suppla--nent rphere I S been nO evidence in the

record that anything changed between 1994 and

1995 and the acivity in question which

started in I believe December of 98 or

Jaluary cf 1999 Ane I believe responcerts

agreed on the western side of the site in

their expert reper that the configuration

has been co~sistent si~ce 1949 up until the

time of the activity If there are any further

quest iors I woud jus smnnarize again by

pointing out that the facts this case are

veoy very siltple Ttese are wetlands theyre

clearly docJmented as wetlands the

preponderance of the evidence established the~

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as wetlands The preponderance of evidence -shy

tle overwhelming preponderance of the evidence

established that Chese wetlands are

performing actual documented functions The

very significant nexlJS that Justice Kennedy

described in h~s opinion The evidence in this

case shows that these wetlands are physically

adjacent to tributaries These are ditches

they are rranmade bu~ wo~d ~ust note that

iJ Ra9a~os itself the ditches were manmade

and no justices voted about that They flow

waking dista1ce to tradi tionally r~avigable

waters and 7hey are jllrisdictional Thank

you

MS v-JILCHER May it please the

cOJgt IrJClnt to t~lank couJsel for -aising the

tabletop analogy necause I forgot to This is

at a divide It is twenty feet above sea

level It 8 a watersted divde lke he

cortinental divide such hat water is flowirg

away it is not at the bottom of anything It

is nQ a marsh it is EDt a bog it is Lot a

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swarrcp i1-is is ar~ area where there is no

abili ty for the fJetland to capture and keep

pollutants out of a Y1avigable water because it

lrsef is a the very head of the watershed

And so trying 0 -- f you Jere able to be

there and see that~ you woald understand that

its not got the same type of functions and

values as some area ad) aca1t to below I

cach1g f pYEvertng po=-l-ltion cori1g frou a

10 of upstream areas While thats not

parricularly significant

JUDGE SHEEHIlll Havent yo just

helped ma~e te argumelOt that with gravity

lorking as it 60es any discharge of a

po1hltant up high wotld have made its way dOlJID

low f to a navigable water

MS WILCHER Yes so this is not

a rrounanols area fh=-s is a very slight

slope 11 fact to the naked eye it s almostt

hard to see a slope

JUDGE SHEEHAN Why does flow

matter as significant ~exus goes

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HS VrJCHER We11 the amount of

rur~offf qJie fr-ankly r~at would occur can

matte w~th regacd to that I do want 0

address a few absolutely incorrect things that

were stated and a couple misconceptions Let

me start with the mischaracterization of the

axpert witnesses that were hired in 2007

There seems to be some attempt to imply that

hiri1g differe1t expert witnesses to deal with

wtether this is ju-iscicto1al under Rapanos

is the same as having expert witnesses to

testify whether or not this area met the

former -- the actual definition of a wetland

Theyre two different things You can have a

wetland and it ca1 still not be

jClrisd~ctional So itS our hope that the

Board doesnt misconstrue that to say that by

hiring different fgtxperts you were trying to

get a different result which was not the case

-- its simply that if youre looking at how

much flow what the funcions of values ar-e

its a very differert thing fran sorteone who

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caL go ou~ a~d do the soil samples to

determine whats hydric and whats not

Seco~d jus~ as with regard to the

credibility of the witnesses just as there

were some -- a case perhaps whee ac-I expert

witness misstated something or changed its

rnird 1 so did some of the government I s expert

wi tnesses misstate something that then had to

be co-ected So did the brief that said

that took the word and and changed it to

Or witr regard to what Justice Kennedy hadI

written So I dont think that that in and of

itself has any significarce wi th regard to the

credibility of a witness tihen we are talking

abcu lGVJ fa this land is from a navigable

water counsel has mentioned that it S 2600I I

feet middotrhich is about half a mile or 4200

feet which is close to a mile -- thats not

to reac-t a navigabe water Let us be clear

That is to reach something that is not

necessarily an intermittent area4 EPA

stipulated l the stipulations dated

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Septewer 8th 03 that the water body

depicted and ]i5 is nurrbers 37 and 38 that

the water bodies depicted as these drainage

ditches on the site are depicted by the USGS

topa rEap at the 3allary Hill (Phonetic)

quadrangle as a broken blue line and that a

broken bae line denotes an irtermi ttent

stream These are intermittent streams ard as

Justice Sheehan has correctly noted Judge

Scalia says n mary circ1JIstarces that

intermittent streams are not jurisdictional

waters of the U S HmAever if we tun to irlhat

Custice Kennedy says thats rhece we kind of

get into the eitheror what we also find

there is a great discussion by Justice Kennedy

loiClself on 1e Ccrps definition of a

tributary Counsel was referring to the

drainage ditches as t-ibutaries ard Justice

Kennedy makes it c~ear that the corps

definition of tributary that was in effect at

tr~e time this decision was -rritter middotJsing he

high watermark was not appropriate I and would

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lead in fact to too broad a definition of what

was jurisdictional i~ and of itsef under the

Clean Water Act And theres we dont have

time to read it all but Im sure youve

probably ead it more tirres t~an have

aryay iled also jtst lke to mention tha

qui te frankly the evidence that has been

introduced in this case is the type of

evidence the Cour was r~opng would not be

Csedo prove jurisdictior on such an

important issue and that is its speculative

Its not -- were not arguing that wetlands

arent irrportart J we arent arguing that

wetlands aralt valuabe anc you know in

1990 wed say regulate because we had the

legal authority to do so This again is one

of tlese cases t1at sirrply wishing that 1_e

Q C d h dfe I~upreree o~r~ naa sal some ~~g 1 ~eren~ y

does not make it so This is what the Court

said -- thats the final word on the mater

whatever we decide ~t is bu it S tre firai

word and we c~~t change that regardless ofl

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how mportant or ho wrong someone may think

that it auld be To other quick points to

mention and that is EPA knew about this work

that was going on in February of 1999 and

that is in Jeff Lapps testimony tn Volume 1

page 167 through 169 so EA did kno Most of

t~e woyk was completed by Aprii or May of that

year before EPA every CaIne out to the site

and it wasnt until 2000 chat a notice of

violation was issued

JUDGE SHEEHamp1 So why does that

matte- That is an enforcement choice EPA makes

every day of the week and its not part of

the record i~ has nothing to do with whether

or not the Kennedy or Scalia or any other test

was met It really doesnt seem to bear on the

legal issues here

11S vIILCHER Fair enough For

purpose of ~his arg~~e~tl for t~e pur~ose of

today youre probaDly right J-luge But i~

does matcer if were talking about typical

practice of EPA and while Im well aware that

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theres no requirement to take an enforcemer-t

action in a1ything less trar this period of

statute of limitations if in fact this was as

egregious and as violative and as problematic

as counsel appears to make it seem then EPA

did have every opportlli~ity to stOy that and

in ITany many cases vlhen EP1 sees a clear

violation of the law I they simply issues a

cease and desist order and in a case like

Rapanos in the Rapacos case you have people

who are going out anc taking action and

violating the wetlands law after theyve

received many state and federal cease and

desis orders so the facts of this case are

so di==ere~t from the facts of tha~ case Here

we have someone who was trying to comply with

the law as it was written at the time in my

view he was complying with the law as it was

wri ten at tlat time actG the fact tha EPA

didnt like ~he way the law was written and

what it said and what the courts were

deciding does not give hem authority to come

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in and regulate after the fact

JUDGE WOLGAST Counsel thank you

youre Olt of if you could make your

final point n just r~e next thirty secords J

I think you saie you had two I may be

mistaken

MS WILCHER Thank you Well we

are talkirg about jurisdictio1 I do think

tha tte overall =-ssJe of equity cotes i1to

play Ar~d knowing -- even krowing what the

jurisdiction was at the time of the activities

undertaken is really kind of an unc I Qar

matter Were still struggling with what

j Clrisdict iOI is Re9rettably toat s always

been t~e problem with this program

problem Igtli th this progral7l is that Corgress did

not give us clear direction and clear guidance

to either EPA or to the Boyds or to anyone

else in the regulative corrmlUnity and I t-hink

that s a factor certainly that the court Iblil

consider ard should corsder I when making a

decision on issues of liability and in this

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case we would ask that you do so Thank you

J1DGE voLGAST Thank YOJ Cours

thank yOJ for your arguUent and the case is

now submitted

MS DURR All rise Session of the

Environmenta Appeals Board nmv stands

adjourned

(Whereupon the above-entitled

matter was concluded at 11 16 am)

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ability 5011 722 able 725 above-entitled 1 17

808 absent 224 absolute 588 absolutely 213

734 abundant 1221 abutting 3920 accepted 62 10 access 20 16 5419

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542 Act710 1020

111715193712 4064517649 6720763

action 615 381 78211

activities 79 11

7021117 actual 169 714

7313 adapted 69 addition 6313 additional 820 address 9 14 1111

122 167 2S6 411148175619 734

adjacency 6 11 2284721483

adjacent 29 1818 39194024418 718728

adjourned 807 administrative

1136310 adopted 71 advocacy 25 19 aeria131155213

activity 6920 70 1 bull

Page 81

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Page 82

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CERTIFICATE

This lS to certify tha~ ~he foregoi~g transcript

in the matter of Snith Farm 3nterprises ILC

Hon Anna Wolgast E-wironmenta Appeals Judge

Date Jaly 20 2010

Flace Washingson DC

represens the ful and complete proceedings of the

aforementio1cd marter as reported and reduced to

typewriting

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCR8ERS

1323 rOOE iSLAND AVE_ NW (202 234-4433 WASHtGON DC 20005-3701 fNWnnalrqft)6Scom

Page 2: BEFORE THE ENVIRONMENTAL APPEALS BOARD IN ... By...MS. DURR: Environmental Appeals Board of the U~ited States Environmental Protec~ion Agency is now in session for oral argument, in

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APPEARANCES

o~ Bebalf 0= Snith Far~ E~terprises LLC

HUNTER SIMS JR ESQ of Kaufman amp Ca~oles PC

150 VJes Ma1 Street Suie 2100 Norfolk VA 23510 (757) 624-3272 (757) 6243169 fax

a10 IAJUAclA S WILCHER ESQ

of English Lucas priest amp Owsley 1101 College Street PO Box 77G Bowling Green KY 42102 (270) 781-6500 (270) 782-7782 fax

On Behalf of the Environmental Protection Agency Region III

STEFANA D SfiAHE ESQ of US Environmental Protection Agency

Region III 1650 Arch Street lvail Code 3FC20 Philadelphia PA 19103-2029 (215) 814-2682 (215) 814-2603 fax

ALSO PRESENT

J~4ES BOYD DONNl CAlER-TAL EGRlKA JURR KARYN ~JENDELOWSKI

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P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-K-G-S

1001 ala

MS DURR Environmental Appeals

Board of the U~ited States Environmental

Protec~ion Agency is now in session for oral

argument in re Smith Farm Enterprises LLC

docket number CJA-03 -2001-0022 CvA appeal

number- 08-02 The hono-able judges Kathie

Stein Anna Wolgast Charles Sheehan

presidirg please tJ2~ off all c 1 pholes ar~d

no recording devices allowed You may be

seated

J~DGE it(OLGAS Good nornirg v-ie ye

here today pursuant to the Boards order of

May 13th in Smith Farm Enterprises and

pursuant to tat ocder each side w~ll have

thirty minutes for argtlment and Smith Farm

play reserve five ninutes for a rebuttal if

Y0l cl1cose AncL counsel ween you make you

argument if you could state your name for the

record And with tha~ r think were ready to

p~oceed

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132-3 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202) 234middot4433 WASHINGTOn DC 20005middot3701 wwwneallgroosoom

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MS ~JILCHER Than( you very much

I 7t LaC-uana vilcher ltlith English Lucas

iest and Owsley rile are also represented by

Hunter Sims of Kaufman and Canoles

representing STIli th Farm Enterprises LLC Also

at the table is ~im Boyd who is one of the

owners of Sr1ith Farts we would 111lt8 to

reserve our five minutes for rebuttal please

and I would also ask the Boardls indulgence

since I fro relatively nevl to this very long

cass should I need to confer with Mr Sims or

-ir Boyd durng the course of t1is discussio1

Thank yOJ very ~uch

Im here today because this is

actually a very very important case Its an

inportar~t case boh to ~he -- the Boyd family

bot1 in ers 0 the 8otiona2 and nancia

to11 it has taken over the last eleven years

but also because of the important policy

questions that are presented before this

board especially n the light of the

u~isdi ctional detelfinaions under Rapanos

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON DC 20005middot3701 wwwrealrgrosscom

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which is clearly the subject of our

conversation today

oward that end ve Jlot~d l=-ke to

jcst br~efly call to the Boards attention a

short history of the case going back to 1998

and 1999 when drainage ditches were

constructed on Smt~ Fanrs 1 some wooded

areas dra~ni1g that that land The - shy

beorepound tne proJec~ t-negan anabull was under t aken

Mr Boyd contacted and met with the Army Corps

of asked for ~heir opinion

concerning jurisdictional issues and otter

issues concerning a permit The corps of

Engineers certainly never indicated in any

fashion that there was a problen at that time

jurisdictior~aly consderirg tle wor~ that was

a~ticipated to occur

Of course were here today largely

because the whole jurisdictional issue has

been turned up Ol ts head by Rapanos in 20061

and can certainly say that Ve Vould be in a

very different situation were it back to 1989

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or ~92 or 93 ween I was at tt8 Agency and

dealing with iss~es when then the only thing

that was necessary for the Agency to prove was

that there were waters of ~he United Sta~es

ncluding wetlands that is lands that vere

inundated or satura~ed by surface or ground

water s~ch that ~hey could and ordinarily did

support a prevalence for vegetation typically

adapted to life in saturated soil conditions

We always referred on the Riverside Bayview

case and extended the adjacency of the

wetlands to a navigable water beyond that

such tha any tine thac there were wetla~ds

that they were conside-ed to be

jlrisdictiol1al ard eniorcemalt actior~ woud

have been considered proper

In the Rapanos Case the court

talks abo~t the expanding jurisdiction by the

Corps of Engi~eers and cetainly by

extension to EPA when in many of those

circumstances EPA was pushing the Corps to

expa1d their jurisdiction And the court

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AO TRANSCRIBERS

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po s out that tneuro Corps adopted increasingly

broad interpretations of its own regulations

Talked about the migratory bird rule It

talked about how the Corps rad exparded ~ts

own interpretations of the definition of

tributaries to include ephemeral streams ard

c~ose that ran ~hrough drainage Qitc~es And

then the plurality opinion goes on to clarify

that that type of regulation was never

intended to be covered by the Clean raer Act

as waters of the U S SOIDe of the key

JUDGE STEIN Ms Wilcher

JiS ~TIL-CrER Yes

JVDGE STEIN Has any court held

that the plurality test alone determines

jurisdiction

ItS WILCHER I do not believe

that any court has held that the plurality

test alo~e confers jurisdiction

JUDGE STEIN Okay

MS 11 I LCHER I assume that the

court wants to hear about that since it is an

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impotant part of the decision AQd we can

talk about significant nexus next I if thatS

okay or if you wart me to go to significant

nexus now I be happy to do that

JUDGE STE=N No thats fine you

car talk about the pluralities first but le~

me ask you if we were to find that the

eviQe~ce met as J~dge Xoran oQ~6 the

significant nexus test but for whatever

reason it didnt meet the plura~ities test l

L1en vhat is middotJ~e OJtcorneuro

MS WILCHER Now thats a very

and no one knows In the Fourth Circuit

specifically what the outcome of that -- what

the outcome would De The Rapanos test

unfortunately in an effort to reign in

jurisdicion by the Corps and EPA created

probably as many questions as it did answer

and its created a lot additional

lit~gation So we I re here synpatretic 0

EPAS plight of having to try to figure out

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISlAND AVE NW (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON DC 20005lt701 wwwnoolr9f05Sc(JITl

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what that meanS l a~d the regulated community

also rying 0 figure oat what it means

becalse it is simply not clear The Marks case

that said that you would select the nost

Earow of the interpretations n a case such

as this might be difficult to apply because

it S hard to figure out itlhat the most 1arrowI

cefinition or application of this case would

be Obviously from Smith Farms standpoint

we would be really delighted shou~d =h~s board

decide to follow the Ilarks opinion and decide

that the Scalia test would be the most

appropiae here bJt vere perfecty preparedl

to address both

JUDGE WOLGAST B~t that is -- but

yot-e assuning trat the narrowest grounds

would then be the pluralities test as opposed

to say I the narrowest ground sin-ply being

tha hey rejeced the Rapanos evicence ald

remanded the case In terms of what -- what

five justices could agree to It Jas simply

ocemand

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1323 RHODE ISlAND AVE NW Z02 24-4433 WASHINGTON DC 20005-37)1 WflW J10slrgrosscom

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MS rLCHER rgthat f S rigrLt Thats

right But i s presumed trat the CO-clrt s

reasoni1g ar~d the four -- the opinion of the

four written by Scalia the opinion of

Roberts the opinion of Justice Kennedy all

rreant sameL-hing J and hat is what we are left

to vlork within and -shy

TUDGE SHEEHAN What do you think

cf the governme~ts argument trat either test

can apply as the First and Eighth Circuits

have held

MS WI~CHER well clearly a

nillnber of circuits have held that either test

Itould apply f ard in this case we we

believe that the evidence despicB what the

ALJs have found we believe the evidence

clea~ly shows that under neither test would

this area considered to be jurisdictional

~nder the curre~t interpretatio~ of the Clean

Water Act u~der Rapanos

And I really do think chat

not wanting to lose the forest for the trees

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRA1SCAIBER3

1323 RHODE jSlAND AVE NW (202) 2344433 WASHINGTON DC 20005-370~

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here the forest -- the big picture is thatI

Rapanos is a dramatic shift in the way

busir~ess as usual has been done aL these

agencies from 1972 ~ntil 2006 It is -shy

in 2001 you had a little deviation here but

its a ilge dfference and what we find in

the brief -- and what we find in the brief of

t1e govermnent in this case is lot much of a

differerce from how the law previously lttas

interpreted and Ill -- Ill just go ahead

aYld address thae ssae and that is that the

the strongest argument it appears that

he government nakes in its brief dealing

with the significant nexus test is that

wetlands are ~rrponart ~1etlards provide

valuable functions and even Rapanos case

notes that the Clean V~ater Ac has been very

important and serves an important public

interests and Section 404 and the wetla~ds

laws i-l particuar provide ar~ irportant public

interest

JUDGE SHE1 Vie11 i 81 c the

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governments argument that these wetlands I in

particua are important I and can you address

how these wetlands do or do not meet the

Kennedy significant nexus test

fiS WILCHER That woud be t1e

goverlli~ents argument but in this case they

have failed cO co inCroduce by a

preponderance of the evidence ~hat that is

the case

JUJGE WOLGAST Coud you describe

for us what you ~elieve the goverr~ent would

have to show at a minimum to meet Justine

Kernedys significant nexus test in this

context

MS ~iILCHER At a mini~um they

wotd have to show some measure of the effec

that would be had by this wetlands property

upor~ a navigable vater of the Uni ed States

and they have not done so ln ary regard

JUDGE SHEEHIN Wasnt there

abunda1t testimony says the gDve=runent by

expert i1itness Martin and others that there

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1323 RHODE SLAND AVE NW 202 234-4433 WASHNGTOtt DC 20005-3701

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was such a C oILleci en YOJ f re speakirg very

theoretically Id like if you could to get

specific about what you think the failu~es are

i~ the governments case on the Kennedy test

MS ~VIrJCHER Yes but if you -shy

+_--ne if you look at the gover1TIleuroEt s

argument one of their lengthy arguments is

about the impact 0 denitrification that

VJetlands provide an important deni trification

iss~eJ pointing out that the Chesapeake Bay

tas too rruch nityogen and tbat its important

to keep that out They talk about the fact

that n~toger coues from atrrosphe-ic

deposition They talk about the fact that

microbes in the soil vi22 break hat rtroger

down and then they talk about that once the

nitrogen is broken dmvr it ll be taken up by

the breeze and i If~ay even be given off again

into -- into the air

JDGE STEIN ltJasn f t there

plentiful testimony by government witnesses

and the companys witnesses as to what was

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occurr~ng specifically at this site I mean

I think the challenge for the compa~y i~ this

appeal 8 that there were credibili ty findings

Chat tiere made by the ALJ as to some of the

testimony by respondents by the companys

wi tnesses and given the Board f 5 standard forJ

crecibility determinations where the 30ard

you knovl historically ove many mar~y years

gives great weight to an ALJ~s finding how is

it ha t we can ove look he ALJ S credibi lity

determinations in the face of countervai~ing

evidence ~hat the ALJ found ~o be credible

(S WILCHER Judge Stel if I

can finish Judge Sheehans question I III ge

right back 0 you on that You were wanting

some specifics and an example of what the

government tried to prove in its case By

go~ng through this whole denitrification

process they nake ~o distinction betwee~ the

value that ris particalar wetlald is making

or any paricular wetland is making I to the

denitrification 0 the Chesapeake Bay

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l5

JUDGE SHEEHAN But the Kennedy

tea says that if wetlands aloLe or in

combination with other wetlands have that

kind of effect

115 WILCHER Wetlands alone or in

corrbinato1 with otrer wetlands or in

combination lith the uplands the arguments

~ha t tbey ace laking wOClld apply equally to

uplands and as the court noted in the Rapanos

decision applying some of these tests as the

government histori cally has applied them to

say that they are jurisdictional sirrply

because hey have value and may be somewhat

miles aay hut may have some connection or

some val~e ~i~es away being speculative in

nature does rot cause it to be

jurisdictional and it sa~d i~ so the en~ire

United States would be considered regulated

llilder tbe Clear~ ater Act

JUDGE SHEEHAN Theres ~~ theres

one and cot to get in the vay of Judge

Steins question but Qne of the exhibitsr

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Remand Exhibit 937 shows a very honeycombed

tissue through the Srith Farm weta1ds going

ou~ to the two rivers and then to the bay I~

looks sure _ surely to me it looks from this

exhibit and otes as if tl1e wetlands are very

proximate to and affect directly the waters

below Car you address that

KS WILCE2R I wil Those naps

do not show any actual measurable connection

nor do they show a contir1oJS surface

conE6ction r~avigable vrates

JUDGE SHEEHAN Why does it have to

be a surface connection tilly car_ t it be stbshy

surface if theres a hydrological link

MS WILCHER But theres ~o

showir~g of a silD-surface hydroogica liak

either Theres a total lack of evidence of

probative dence i~ th~s case to actualy

tie that paricu=-ar vletland Co a rcavigable

water which by the way you would have to gor

fcom tha wetland to a drair~age ditcr~ anc

went out there and traipsed down the site

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1323 RHODE ISlAND AVE 0W (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON DC 200JS3701 wwwnealrgrooscom

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before I came here to talk to you about this

but youd have to go fr~~ that -- b~t this ~s

all en the record -- YOlld have to go fron

that area that might be-- that part of it that

might be considered a we~land~ through

drainage di tches t1at are only inerrrit ert

in nature and t1e evidef~ce is clear that

theYre only intermittent in nature including

the USGS blue line dotted lines and then they

would have to go from tlere to Bailey Creek

non- navigable to Drurr Point Creek

non-navigable] then to tributaries of the

westeGl branch of the Elizabeth River I which

is t~e f rst tne you I d hi a ~avigable wate

If go in the opposite

direction they would have to go from drainage

ditches to Quake~ Neck Creek to ~eans Bra~ch

which are tributaries 0 tne ravigable water

the Nansemond River 14d so there there is

no proof that there is a connection

Things could lave been done Tne-e

cOmiddotJld have been dye raclgs there cOlld have

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been a~l kinds of evidence hey could have

taken samples they could have done

quantitative analysis There is no chemical

evidence there is no physical evidence there

is no biological evidence that connecs this

to a navigable water f and therein lies the

problem

JJDGE TO~GAST Justa if I

could follow up on that before we get back to

cred~bility iss~es

MS HLCHER Okay

JUDGE WOLGAST Are you saying that

the fact they floTlI throJgh ditches is a

jurisdictional problem

MS 1tILCHER Not particularly

JUXE vIOLGASI And the1 get ~ ing

back to the testimony that Judge Sheehan was

referring to where JIdge Morar was referring

to the testimony of Mr Rhodes and Mr Martin

that the property provides flood storage flow

moderaion carbOIl sequestration vlater

purification denitrification what I want to

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undsystard aboJt your argument 1s are these

aspects insufficient or would they be

sufficient if in your mind there was more

evidence of the connection of these attributes

to the Nansemond or Elizabeth Rivers

MS iILCHER EPA -- the govenment

cant simply say that wetlands are valuable

because they are-- help prevent flooding and

not show that they would help prevent flooding

in this particular case and that it would

significantly help prevent flooding in t~is

partcular case lrJha ttey have done toe

Drie is to siIply lay down he well-knoJl

attributes a~d valuable functions and values

of wetlands and said therefore this is

having a significant effect on navigable

~ivers Theye is not a co~~ection they have

lot snoltm by a1y credible evidence cause and

effect of any sigrifcant iIEpact tpon thef

navigable rivers

JUDGE SHEEHAN But you make

again a very theoretical argument about the

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fact Chat the goverruuent just argues wetlands

fgelerally but werer t government wi tnesses

crawling allover this property mul iple

times testify~ng at great lengtl lots of

exhibits aerials historc maps and

everythi~g else to show in this case fo~ this

property there was trat link Its hard to

believe with all that 11Bssive Estimony and

getting to ~he credibility issue that he

governrrent doesn~t have a pretty solid case

rat hat nexus sat) sfyilg the Kennedy test

exists

MS WILCHER It is hard to

believe I totally agree It is hard to

believe Tle governmert has had unfettered

aCCess to this property for over a decade and

have failed 0 develop flmr drainage elements

they cant show how illuch flows off the site

they cant show vhat type of sediment runoff

might have occurred at ~he site ~hey ca~tt

show what type of water retention is teld Jy

the site t~ey have been unable to show any

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ecoogical cC1nection 1tith regard to wildlife

there was a Woodcock seen on the site There

is absolutely -- and its amazing to me hat

tr~ere is a void

JUDGE STEIN But isnt the test a

nexus a significant nexus not this

sJbstantial inpacts est that I hear wove]

through some of your statements and T dont

-- when I go back and I look at the Kennedy

opinion you knot] and some of he hings t1at

are cited I dont necessarily see that that

test requires the level of proof that youre

stggesing is reqJired ny hat test So

perhaps you could explain to me based on the

Kennedy opinion how you get from there to the

level of proof Lhat you re a5~ing for f just to

establish jurisdiction

MS WILCHER Certainly

JUDGE STEIN I mean I we re not

here to determire you know penalty or

anything else were here just to figure out

if youre even i~ tbe door

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MS IILCHER Yes understand

Ie 1 1 what Justice Kennedy said was to talk

abmlt he fJay the Corps nac typically

regulated wetlalds and then to say absent

more speciic regulations however the Corps

must establish a significant nexus on a case

by case bBSS wler it seeks to regulate

wetlands based on adjacency to non-navigable

tributaries and then it goes on to say given

the potential over breath of the Corps yen s

regulations this showing is necessary to

avoid unreasoDable applications of the

statute

The justice wrote I no~ just a

~exus if the COurt had only said there has to

be a nexus then o~e would have a different

burden of proof in this case the court said

a significant nexus and we have to assnne

that a significant nexus is meaningful that

those words mean SOIEethi1g So theres a -- at

least a two-step process One to show that

theres a nexus and the other is to show that

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its significant and that is what the record

is devoid 0 in this particular case

JUDGE SlEIN But its not a

significa1t impact its a significant nexus

MS iILCHER Thats right a

significant nexus And the sigrificart rexus

must -- and if YOu read through the rest of

the case it talks abolt hm -- that in order

to regulate land as water there must be some

type of impact on the water

JUDGE SHEEHAN Justice Kennedy

also uses a phrase that think is pertinent

here r he says that the how -- how the proof is

determined has to be done in a practical way

ard i almost sounds as if what you I re

requiing is that the governrrent set up flow

meers or pour a vial of discharge into a

ditch and see if it eventually ends up in the

Chesapeake or do something on a very

impractical scale to prove ~he connectio~

MS WILCHER You know this is a

really important issue The governrrent has to

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do sOIething oJer than to make allegations r

especially in a case where youpoundre dealing with

constitutional issues such as privae property

rights and how one car jse his own property

or hers and in this case I there are lots of

things tha~ EPA historically has done for

ypcal NPDES cases But when you before he

Board on a NPDES case theres at least some

measure If they had had pictures that there

las a plurne comir_g off of this wetlar~d if

theyd done any flow calculations if theyd

had any physical chemical biological

evidence of a nexJS and a signiican- nexus to

the navigable waters which again( are not the

ditches they are the ditches that flow to the

creek that flow 0 the creek that flow 0 the

navigable waters j then it would be a different

case but that is not what has happened in

this case

JUDGE IJOLGAST Well as you say

the goverIl1lent obviously has the burden of

proof i~ a~ eLfo~cerne~t case l but is this the

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same type of evidence that you thirk a

_a~Qowne~ should Lndertake I mean obviouslY

they have the burden to obtain a permit where

there is potential jurisdiction

I~S ~JILCaER Btt if the person

doesnt obtain a permit ~~ and the government

thinks that theyre i~ error again the

government always has the burden of proof

JUDGE vJOLGAST Right but J 1m

talking about getting a -- yOJ know starding

in the landowners shoes before weve ever

gotten to an enforceme1t case it -- it I

mean I ~h~nk theres some iSS48 with getting

back to the Supreme Court case that one of

he things that were concerned about - at

least lJustice Scalia pointed to was how much

evidence time money it takes to vJOrk

thro~gh ~h~s process and it sou~ds like the

yeLl know r the advocacy here is that there

should be more not less

)15 ~JLC1ER There stou1d be

something dore by the government in thi s

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regayd to actually prove a nexus and a

sgnificant nexus ard in this ease I canr

assuye you Judge Wolgast that the l~downer

has go~e above and beyond the oall of duty

going to the Corps time after ti~e having the

Corps ou to tr~e site and having spent talk

about the time and money and investmert having

his case as understand it having spent

over $800 000 in litiga~ion costs to try to

pr-otect what was legal at tl~e time that it was

aone and so -- so there is a burden

The governme1t has the burden aid

in this case in this par~icular case they

failed to meel it I don I t know why I haven [t

been involved that lor~g ~ would speculate

tl1at by the time he Rapanos case cane along

it V~as jlSt too hard to go back and find the

type of probative evidence that would carry

the cay_

I do not necessaily thirk that

its an impossible tas~ There have been ot~er

cases that ve reviewed aihere the goverrUent

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has irtroduced evidence of the poundows tr~e

amount of drainage that has occurred how much

water might be taken up by a wetland area$ but

none of that was done in thi s particular case

and again we can only speculated why that

was the case

JDDGE STIN How does tr_s S~xth

Circuit decision in the Cundl f f matter bear on

your view that the -- you need some sort of

laboratocy araysis to prove h~s7

MS ~VILCHER in that

particular easel you dont have as I ~ecall

the -- the disarce roIT a navigable waer

tha t we have here [ and I think the farther you

are away from a navigable water the harder it

is 0 prove tha~ theres any impact on that

navigable water and in this -- again in this

case they are far away from a navigable

water and I think toe reaSC1 tha~ we don

see the p=oof is because its not there itS

not developable and that is why it is not

Cere Did yOl wart De to ~~

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JUDGE STEIN I do wact you to get

the credibility question

MS bull WILCHER I dian t t want to

forget your - shy

JUDGE STEIN No while we we~e on

this topic why cor t t yOJ addres s the

credibility question

MS vILCHER I think its an

important question IC t S a real important

question and that is simply that s even though

the regtllatior~s do provide that typicaily when

the ALJ hears the witnesses and makes

determinations 0 ~~eir credib~~ity that

typically this Board will defer to that

However in this case a carefctl review of the

record shows that the ALJs just got it wrong

and it is within this Boards prerogative to

look at the -- look at t1e factors tha

that the ALJs used in making their

deterninatior and make a judgreJt aboJt

wl1ether those factors are sufficient

A couple of examples There was a

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mar who had Iived OT the farm for h~rty years

who testified that he I d walked over the farm

for thir~y years and testified that in fact

Ithe streams J or the drainage di tches were

intermittent in nature and did not carry water

I - 1 h d - a11 th e trre bull e __ t e JU ge ~n tHe QeClS10n

said well I think hes a nice man I think

hes beholden to the Smi ths f and he was just

Ollt or a wa so totally just discounted his

testimony saying he WBS just out on a walkJ

as if that meant t~at somebodywQuldnt no~ice

DGE ~vOGAST ~ Are yot saying

though that it would have to carry water all

tre time

MS vHLCHER No no But but

it f s clearly -- is Eot a navigable water lor

it is adjacent nor is the wetland adjacent to

a navigable water in this case It flows

anything t~at =lows opound= of t~at a~ea that has

been considered to be wetland by the

goverr-Uent flows -rxough drainage ditches

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that are only intermittent in nature and

~herefore are ~ot co~sidered to be navigable

watsYs clea~ly urder the Rapanos decison

JUDGE SHEEHAN But if the man

walking the land said that they were

intermittent and youre saying intermittent

doesnt matter

I~S IgtlILCHER Were saying that -shy

Judge Cha~eski as I recall said tha~ there

was a c01tinuOU5 flow of 5088 kind isnt that

-- d~~lt J~dge Char~eski say that

WOLGAST lrJell Justice

Scalia said that even after that -shy

HS WILCHER Right right

JUDGE WOLGASl That that

seasonal flow could establish jurisdiction

~nder the pluralitoes test

148 t-JILCEER BJt there s not beenj

seascnal flow established -=-n this case Yot

have somebody going out there en particular

days after these ditches have been dug which

we all know alter the flow in drainage after

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the eLi tches are dug ftJaer goes to the lowest

level and so theres going to be more water

draining OU= of there t~a~ ~here would have

been in 1998 and 1999 and that -- that is

clear ~tat ~tere is no ev~de~ce ac the time

this was done they were -- they were anything

but inerYlitten and here l s no j1risdictiola1

connection that they have proven to date

JUDGE ~JOLGAST And what do you

think they would have had to have shown to

show seasonal flow

MS ~IILCHER Well they could

have done something more than go out there

nine times over tbe course of a year rrhey

could have had aerial photographs taken Ihey

cod have -- weil first yOl have the uSGS -shy

you have the USGS maps as showing its

inteYrnittent and theres lierally no

testimony en the record right now to show that

theyre anything but interrrdtent Ot-her than

to say that if somebody goes out there ~ine

Cimes and looks at the flow and sees water

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then -- agair~1 keeping ir mind this was years

atel 1_8 dainage d=- tches tver-e dtg ha t were

channeling more water into the old one through

seven drainage areas there B nothing tof

establish what was the~e at ~he time in 1998

a~d 1999

JUDGE VlOLG~rST And I think

isnt this what courts are struggling with in

the sense that its -- its one thing to say

~ts ~~ter~itte~tf b~t is that good enough I

mean I dont you have to figure out just how

much flow in you know what period of time

or the idea that -- I dont -- if someoae

says t~at its intermitte~t Irr not sure that

means its ir~ or out without further evidence

MS WILCHER Right Well that

shows really the that shows arguably a

cQnYlecion Bu how rrlcr =ow is going through

there whether sediment loading is going

through there whether theres an ecological

connection through there all these whethers

lead to whether t~e~e is a sig~ificant nex~s

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to a navigable water and if you look at some

of the other cases ~here has been that kiLd of

information introduced and in this case there

is none

JUDGE vJOLG1ST hhat case are you

thinking of

MS vJILCiER I thirki1g maybe

t was the Precon case ir - - in the Eastern

District of Virginia Its on appeal in the

Fourth Circuit I may r~ve been ~hat BJt

I 11 be happy to provide some cases -- a case

or cases later on that show the type of

evidence that tas been introdJced because I

remember reading about them and cant think of

the name right now

TlDGE SHEEIiAN I Vant to go back

for a moment to Judge Stein J s question about

credibility

gtIS CLCHER YOS

JUDGE SHEEHAN So ALJ Moran sat

through days and days of testimony on the

bench a lot of pecple ~n ~~at witness chair

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Hes there hes on he scere hes

~nterpreting the way the witnesses speak and

their basic credibility which you can only do

face to face in that way Wha~ is it about

what happened there that causes you to think

theres sOne way or some reason for as not to

credit the typ~cal deferehce we would extend

There must be some exception here that we ~eed

0 know about for that to happen

MS WLCHER tAJel1 r ard there are

a few facts that I think would be relevant to

your consideration in that case In the first

instance some of these wi~nesses that the ALJ

deter~ined were not credible --Jere stipJlated

as being expert vtitnesses and hat shows at

least sorre level of credibility in the mind of

the government w th regaro to whetJ~er they

were experts in the field

Second some of the criticisms

in one case a criticism that an ALJ made of an

expert wi tness was that he had not beer~ 0 the

site often enocgh yet vith one of the

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gover~ors -~ goverG~entls expert witnesses

that person had been to the site less times

t1an t1e Srith Farms expert witress A1C SO

there is a confounding sense that in this

particular case for whatever reason if the

experts agreed ~ th r~e goverr_rne1t f they were

credible and that if they di~~t they were

not

It just seems highly unlikely that

every single witness iltroduced by Smith

Far~s and Ive had the pleasure of working

wi th Mr Boyd and it lS just I think

statistically urEkely that one could End

that many unmiddotmiddotmiddotcredible witnesses and in thisf

case I do not believe that they were not

credib2e I believe they were as credible ald

as I mentioned in some cases were stipulated

in beirg expert w~t~esses ~~

JUDGE SHEEHAN So you didnt

believe they were

HS WICHER I did not bel ieve

they were not credible so I believed that

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they were credible And -- and it is sOIEewhat

confoundirg other than to say that the

closest thing that I could figure out was that

if hey supported t~e governments viev tey

were credible and if they did not support the

governments Vlew I they were not

CJDGE trrOGAST But dien f t Judge

Moran find that -- and to generalize ---- that

the witnesses failed to establish that to the

exent t1ere were weta1ds they -lere isolated

by on-hydric soil lasnt that a central part

of his credibility determination

MS ~vILCHER Well trat S O1e of

the findings that Judge Moran made but in

this paricular case keep in mind its not

Smi Parms tha-c has 0 show that there is a

break or a barrier -- its the government who

has to show that the~e is a con~ection

JUDGE liOLGAST Of

understand Right

HS IIILCHER So theres cerainly

pockets of non-hyd~ic soil in tte area and

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for SOle reaSCl EPA _ ar~d again this is just

ki~d of amazing to me

spent this long on that EPA did not go out

there and do a typical delneaion of the

site and this is something that is cypically

done Its amazing that EPA did not issue a

cease and desist order as soon as t~ey ~~ew

abouc it There are many things that to me

are amazing about this case that quite

frarky I are he easor that I came nere to

argue it Because lIm a strong believer in

protecting the Clean Water Act and in

protec~ing lteta-ds and you mayor may lOot

know from my history I I bear a lot of scars

from having trIown myself in the body of

wetlands protection bac~ in the days ana I

still believe its an important thing to do

But I also believe its important to follow

~~e rule of law and ~n chis case Mr Boyd

made every effort to follow the rule of law

and I bel ieve he did and when it did not work

out tte way that EPA wanted the law to be

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this enforcement action came forward at a

time -- and had they intervened early on i~

t~is case they cou~d have stopped They knew

months before the work was cOITpleted -- hey

knew months before the work was completed that

there was ditching and draining going on

t~ere and trey did no move in quickly to try

to resolve that case ar~d they could have -shy

they could have stopped most of the so called

harm that they are now alleging but chose not

to do so ~~ey dd ~ot do a deineaLion they

did not inroduce proof that this particular

part of property has a significant nexus to

jurisdictional waters of the United States to

a navigable water of the United States I and

thats the reason I~ he~e

JJDGE VJOLGASI I see your time is

expired if theres no other questions

MS WILCHER Thank you

MS S~J~ET~ Good morning You=

Honors My name is Stefania Shaliat and I

represent Region III in this matter

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specifically the complainants who are the

division directors for the Environmental

Assessment a1d Irr~ovation Divisio1 and he

vater Protection Division I at EPA Regio11 III

With me at counsel table Id like to

i~troduce DO1la Carner-Tal f who is regulatory

co-msel for the Nc-folk District Army Corps of

Engineers and Karen ~lendelowskl gt who is with

the office of general cour~sel and also we

have a disirglshed g1e8 1$ d lke to

introd~ce -- si~~ing behind me is Dr Dennis

Whigham with the Smithsonian Environmental

Resea=cr Cente- Your Honors responders have

do~e ~~ if I ca~ get in a couple points -- a

good job of obfuscating what are really very I

very simple facts here The simple facts are

hat these are tllelands perfouuiq docurrenced

functions that are delivered to tributaries

These wetlands are adj acent physically

trose trib-ltaries f ard those

tr lbtacies flow to traditiorally navigable

waters to the West 2600 feet away to the

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East 4200 feet away In other words the are

wetlands adjacent to tributaries that low

waki1g clstance to tr-adi ional1y navigable

waters These Vetlfu1ds were jurisdictional

under SWANCC as respondent conceded in Clean

~later Act Appeal mmber 05-05 when respondent

reseved argll1snt on jtrisdicto1 but chose

not to raise it un~il there was a change in

case law They continue to be jurisdictional

under any standard enunciated by he Supreme

Court in Rap~~os The qJan~u~ of proof offeree

by the complaina1ts i1 this matter not only

exceeds preponderance of the evidence it

exceeds any quantum of proof required by

Rapanos In fact t far exceeds it Another

thirg that is obscured in the ar9J11ent here by

the respondents is that up until 2007

respondents had a different set of expert

witnesses It las tlose expert witresses that

coroplainalts stipulated 1heir expertise was

in wetlands identification and the connection

of wetlands to waters of the uniced States

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Ihose witnesses largely agee with

complainac1t I s version of the facts on the

ground ae-d i wasnt until 2007 when

respondents hired a new set of expert

witnesses that any real dispute arose about

what exactly was going on in the site There

was dispute about ithat hat nean f but not

exacly what the physical characteristics of

t21e si te ere

J1DGE WOLGAST Counsel coud you

address Ms wilchers points that while there

may be flow moderation carbon sequestration

there may be some evidence that the government

hasnt shmlTI a nexus between those

characterist~cs and the ~avigable waters

vIS SHAME Sure First of alI

the evi6erce of Je fuYlctions beirg performed

on this S1 te is not speculative There are

photo after photo and testimony after

testimony the governments evidence is based

or established scientific literature that

identifies something called field indicators

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-- physical characteristcs on the ground -shy

that when identified correlate to a specific

functi~n being formed by the wetland In this

case there are three Tr~e first was fow

noderaiou and one of the physical

characteristics thez-e would be such things as

ponding you see a lot of later being

captured in low levels depressional levels

withir the wetland Tle record conta1s dozens

of photos of that The secord is

denitrification and that is the microbes

llptaking nitrogen in the soil That indicator

is something called modelirg i1 he soil It sI

a red spotch Essentially it IEeans that iron

is there That evidence comes not only from

the complainants but if one were to reviel

the soi 18 expert froIT respordent Dr Parkers

O~ I-fr arlter f s firs expe~t repo-t ir

20C3 he describes modeling in his sails The

third is primary production That is the1

contribution of a food source Taking

transforming organics that a2e in the _- in

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nature into a food source in water that then

tralsports that food source dowYlsream to

higher trophic organisms The best evidence of

that actually comes from one of respondents

experts Dr Cahoot 1110 photographed it

leaving the site I cant find the photo at

the marneYlt f blt I 11 describe what he says

Foaing a he confluence of the ditch

leaving the property with ditches along the

property boundary near the railroad This foam

vias also sampled and examined microscopically

--- it contained primary plant debris some

peller ald rllnero-lS sma oil droplets These

oil droplets in my opinion were probably

plant oils derived froI decomposition of the

organic matter in this area That description

correlates perfectly with the description in

the testimony in tZ1e remand hearng about what

primary production s the transport of

particulate and dissolved organics downstream

as a food sOJce So the -Jse 0 the -- t~1e

functions this case are not speculative

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theyre clearly being per-formed theyre

clearly being cocC1ented as beir~g perforrred on

this wetland Theres also evidence of the

hydrologic connection between this wetland

the ibuaries and the downst-eam

trad~tionally r~avigable waers Again that

comes both frOIE complainant ~ s experts as well

as some of respondents experts one of

respondent I s experts described tr_at hydrologic

co~nectio3 as such He descrbed the wetland

as a table tcp on which somebody pours water

the water comes off of that table top into

the ditches and then tansports down to the

taditional1y navigable waers The sane

expert lgtIr Wolf also agreed that the

wetlands on the site were in fact

hydrologically conYlected to the di tches wr~ich

forrr tributaries and lJlere n fact adjacs1t to

them So we also have fUTIction ard we have

transport Now with respect to Ms Wilchers

corrment -shy

JUJGE WOLGAS~ is YoDr

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posi tion on the type of evidence that you

need to show nexus of

characteristics you see on site to the

navigable waters

gt1S SHAtvET My positio1 is tha we

met it exactly and I would refer you to

Justice Kennedys opinion Justice Kenledy

ide~tified the type of functions that he would

consider to form a significant nexus

traditional navigable waters and those are

p~ecisely the functions that were identified

on this site Specifically Justice Ker-nedy

refers to slowirg COt-C of surface runoff r

filtration and purification -- that would be

in on 547 US 773 to 75 He sta~es with respect

to weta1ds f the rationale for the Cleal ~fater

Act regulation is as the Corps as recognized

that vetlands can perforrl cri tica2 functioES

re2-ated to the integrity of other waters

functions such as pollutant trapping -- in

other words l denirifcatior~ -- flood control

flow moderation and ruriOff storage

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Ther-efore the types of functions that we

docrraented as beng performed or this site are

precisely the ypes of unctiors tha Jusice

Ken1edy ide1tified J in his opinion as the

type of functions that form a significant

nexus

JUDGE SHEEHAN In in your

brief on page 46 you say that the Kennedy

Test requiEs weta1ds cont-ibutions to the

physical c1emical or biologic in-egrity of

doOrIlstream waters -- is it nor or Hand Your

brief says or

MS SHAMET The brief says II or -shy

JUDGE SHEEHAN Because if it can

De just one of those -shy

SHA4ET I believe Justice

Kennedy did use and however it is c2ear

that he does not require a function to

contribute to all ~hree factors and chats

clear from the function he identifies

JUDGE SHEEHAN Then why did he say

and

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MS SHAMET I think he said and II

but he had a comraa and a1d he was -eferring

to a list of examples rather than a standard

i1ith respect to Ms Wilchers cormnent that we

dont have any photographs of pltLnes as I

indicatedf one were to trt 0 R Ex 28 f

which llnfortunatey I can f find right now I

ltlhich is Respondent 1 s Exhibit 28 from the

first hearing in 2003 Dr Cahoon provides a

picture of that plume himself I would also

point out that with respect to

denitriication one wouldnt expect to see a

pInrr -- thats the exact point its to hold

Che nitrogen on the wetland -lot send it

downstream

JUDGE STEIN How is the Rapanos

significant nexus test d_fferent if at all

=rom the nexus i~ Rivervew Rverside

Bayview

MS SHAMEl Riverside Bayvie

assumed a nexus based upon adjacencYi in this

case lJustice Kennedy has asked that we

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actually go forward and establish that the

nexus exists rather than simply assuming itI

based On adjacency

JUDGE SHEEHamp~ on page 41 of your

brief you quote some of the tesciroo1Y of the

first ALJ hearing I which sounds a lit~le more

entative to me tha1 youre souidir_g today

about the substa1tial nexus test being met

The brief~ at page 41 reads that these

wetlands are more likely to perform

denitrification more likely to allow for

suspended settlements -- sediments to settle

out~ more likely to support a different suite

of wildlife species that to me is

lar-guage ~rats ~ot qui~e as powerful as

saying there is a substantial nexus met here

that just sounds -- can yo~ address what seems

to be more diffident language in your brief

than what youre articulating today

MS SHAMET Well as Your Honor

pointed out T the language that you pointed to

in the brief is from the 2003 hearing before

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tr~e Rapanos case As the Board is avlare J he

EPP~ agreed and argued that the evidence to

satisfy Rapanos had not been fl11y developed

as of 2003 and this precisely why we

requested a remand

JUDGE SHEEHAN But youre cit i ng

it here filed long after Rapanos as if its

still your position

MS SHAME~ I cited a lot of other

evidence as lJell Your Honor incLuding the

testimory of Mr Rhodes he testi~cny of Dr

~fhigham and the testimony the f1Tther

estimony of Hr Mart So while that is a

piece of evidence it is certainly not the

only evidence cited in our brief

JUDGE WOLGAS~ ~o go back to the

point you were making earlier about how the -shy

in essence the three-part test is the same

type of evidence yo~ would look to to

establish sign~ficant nexus ard Justice

Kernedy did seer to speak to hat saying much

the sarre evidence I referring to tre Corps ssect

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delineation manual type evidence should

P8nnit the establishment of a significant

nexus witr navigable wates

particularly if supplemented by further

ev~dence abou~ the significance of the

tributaries to which the wetlands are

cO11ected How does the gove-nment interpret

the latter part of that quote

MS SILllltlECmiddot I think that the

government needs to show and has shown in

this case that there is an ability of those

trihttayies Co conect the wetlands to a

traditionally navigable water in such a way

that the poundtnctions are delivered In this case

we have certainly shown the hydrologic

cO1nect=-o1 some of respondents expe-ts have

agreed with us that that connection exists and

tha there is sufic8Ylt ~hat there is

water exchange there and weve also shown

that heres proxirrity here again these are

walking distance to traditionally navigable

waters this is not the Rapanos case where it

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traveled 32 miles So we think we have met

that burden here by sho~Jing the hydrologic

connection and showing that these tributaries

are capable of delivering the function With

respect to cr-edibi=-ity and he points that

Your HOlors asked of AS Wilcher I would just

point out tha~ lTudge lvlorans credibility

determination was based on demeanor and also

on the facts of this case An important fact

to note for insta11ce is in the firstF

r~earing in 2003 respondent I s soils exper

who laid a g=id fOJnc 53 ou 55 sarnples

hydric The only two that were non-hydric had

JUDGE STEIN I couldnt hear you

MS SHApoundT Had 53 Oelt of 55 soil

sa~ples he identified as hydric in the site

soEs or ei ther side In the secord heaocilg

Dr Pierce testified that there was

essentially non-hydric soils everywhere And

on cross-examination he was asked didn t youI

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find any hydric soils and he said oc yeah

I found them I just didnt click on my GS

locator and ider~tify where they were and I

just didn It report them He only reported the

non-hydric soEs That is the kind of thing

that happened that caused Jtdge l-loran 0 find

a lack of c-edibility vvlth respect to 9r

Straw Dr Straws expert report disc1ssed

undulations in the landscape that he

interpreted to mean ere were no wetlands

tlere On the sand he conceded trat there

were no u1dulaions on tr~e landscape -- he had

mis~nterpreted the aeria= photo More

importantly he conceded ~hat he knew about

ha t erroy before the hearing and leverf

corrected it until cross-exa~ination Judge

Moran had ample basis for finding no

credibility on those witnesses

JUDGE SEIN Is it your view tha~

the Board has no authority to overrale an

ALJs credibility determination

MS SHAl-1ET No YOJr Honor the

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Board reviews he case de novo lffuile the

Board certainly defer to the ALJ r s credibili ty

determination what I run saying that in this

case t~ere is no basis for overturn~~g it

JUDGE STEIl If we were to

overturn it -- a credibility determination

what kinds of factors r it your view s1ould 18

be taking into aCCo4nt

MS S~~~ET I would think you

oelld be looking to see whether or not the ALJ

has a rational basis oh gosh I hate to use

legal standards like that -- but some sort of

bass or hich he based his credibiliy

deerrtination that he explained why there was

a lack of credibility and I think in this

case he did so amply

JUDGE SHEEHAJ If Ms v~i 1 cher S

correct characterizing the way testimony

cedibclity went i soanced almost like a

hundred percent credit to government

witnesses and practically zero to

respondens witnesses f tratg acctrate

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jus stipulat-=-ng 0 trat assumption - - if

t~atfs accu~ate would that be a basis fer not

allcwing deerence to Jdge Morans

credibility determinations if its so

lopsided

ocs SH_~ET In this case I would

say no just simply because in this case we

have a classic battle of the experts I but

oddly enough the ba~~ling experts are al on

respondents side And )hat we have are

experts whD ~estif~ed in 2007 who flat

disagreed wit the testimony of respordent S

experts in 2003 without any atterrpt by the

2007 experts or respondents to reconcie

that testiITony Given that circumstance it sf

not surp-isirg that the experts in 2007 s

testimony were given very litte weight One

of the things that Hs ltJilcher referred 0 was

unfettered access to the site If anyone had

u~fettered access to the site~ it was

respondent and yet there are no photos in the

record showing the streaL~S leaving the site

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dry except during a drought

JUDGE VOLGAST But her point was

tha t the goverrunert ~as the bmiddoturden here

MS SHlHEI And the burden -- he

government has met the burden In fact in

this case the preponderance 0 the evidence

literally the only evidence other than

testirrony by the site owner testimony by

someone who walks around a three-hu1dred-acre

site hunting and looki1g for damage in che

fieds which lS what he estified he was

doing there and photographs taken during a

d--ought he oV9rtlhe=Iilg evidence is that the

waters do flow on a regular basis First of

all these waers have been napped the

waters leaving the site -- as flovving water by

USGS for hal f a century

JUDGE vIOLGAST Yo mentioned that

the waters flow on a regular basis Is that a

conir~uols bas~s

MS SHAMET We would say it would

be part of every year Your Honor

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JUDGE SHEEHAJ Tlen W1Y 18 that

necessarily continual The Scalia Test now

that veve 901e to continual flow is jilst

that -- there has to be continual flow He

says even the least significant of the lake

river ocealS or streams the four water

bodies the least significant steams has to

have COlticua you

repeatedly say - make other instances that

are to me a lot less cor~fdent t1~an what

Scalia seems to deilland You say page 31 the

drains flow at least part of every yeari page

35 at least SOme portion of every year at

least at least at least it comes up

repeated-ly in YOlr brief vlhich couid be just

one rain event So theres one rain at least

it flows one or two days after the rain aod

thats certainly a far cry I would argue

from continual So can you address the seeming

gap between your statemen~s and what Scalia

seems to demand as far as continual flow

~S SHk1ET Ie would state that

Your

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Justice Sca~ia described re1ativey permanent

wateYs He made pretty clear wrat teose were

He did~t require any specific n~~er of days

of flow -- what he did say was common sense

and common usage distinguished between a wash

and a seasoral river and tha f s in foot1ote

five respondent likes to use the term

intermitten~ a lot but the one thing it is

clear from footnote 5 is that Justice Scalia

does not give the term intermittent any

ocegulatoY import trJhy Because he

specifically decli~ed ~o define it

JUDGE SHEEHAN Why doesnt he give

it regulatory import when at least seven

tirres by ely count in his opinion he says

iEtermi tent waters do not cca11 fy as

jurisdictional -- he even calls it an oxymQron

ac one point

~S SHAMET Even though he does

not -- he declines ~o defihe it He says that

thee are defiritions 0 nterrnttent bu he

sees 10 reason to identify what tlose are

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here I and then he specifically says I We have

no occasion in this litigation to decide

exacty whe1 he cryirg up of a streambed is

continuous and frequent enough to disqualify

tle channel as a water 0 the Cnited States

~jUDGE SHEEI-IAN I know we can t -shy

aobody knows what intermitter~t meaJs with

aOsol~te rigor thas obviously subject to

interpretation But the fact is he

contlnmiddotually rejects intermitten~ waters

whatever that Ireans as jurisdictional a1d

you say intermittent doesnt matter I dont

know how yot can say lat in the face cf al

his statements that intermittent does w~tter

HS SHAMET I think the evidence

dernorstrates pretty clearly that ther-e is

regular flow on a regular basis in these

wateTs A good exaTIple

JUDGE SHEEH1ll~ Im not talking

about the eviderce 1lT talking about the

standard

MS SHAIjET The standard lS that

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there has to be a relatvely pe-mar_ent tvater

It cant be a wash it cant be someLhing that

flows only occasionally only in response co

a very strong rainfall i~ cant be a gutter

It has to be a geographic feature ~~d in this

case we have USGS mapping these as geographic

features conainng Vlaer for over ffty

years which if thatis not relatively

permanent I In not qui te sure what would be

JUDGE SHEEHAN C-ne1 how else - shy

why else -- why is it that you cannot muster

more behind your argument that these are

lowing dyains tha1 just saying at least part

of the year continually You never say its

continual you never say its relatively

permanert ane not interrrittert you seem to

stay away from saying that and it seems

purposeful because it happens so frequently

1 S SHAHET ~J e dont

over~exaggerate our evidence we say what it

is And in this case what we r re saying is Ie

agree hsse styeams dry up for part of ~he

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year VJe f ve never argued that these were

perennial streams because theyre not They

are streams that only flow for part of the

year But part of the year is good enough

1nder Jtstice Scalia f s test These are rot

washes theyre ~ot t ckles When they flow

t1ey flow As Jlldge Mo-an pointed out I the

record is replete wi th photos of these streams

flowing and floling wi th a good arnount ofI

water them Now for exanpJe -shy

JUDGE SHEEHlll Flowing at least

part of the year right

MS SHAME~ Flowirg at least part

of the year If I could get the photo up An

example is ~his series of photos~ if we can

get it up If not Ill jus give tre exhibit

numbers Not a perfect picture This photo was

taken in December 2006 As you can see

theres visible flow in the stream A1d this

is Complainants Exhibit 328 co~plai~ants

Ex-hibit 308 - sarre sreart same location you

can tell by the cross January 07 J still

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lt- Low~ng

JUDGE SHEElI1N ~Iha t does tha t

realy prove YOJ cOl-=d go out right after a

rain as apparently happenedi apparently Dr

Whigham went out afte rain irw 07 ard Judge

Moran noted that he was out two days after a

big rain so naturally the drains were full

DJ showing us occasiQral ~-

IS SHAlyenjET If you can show four

sraight lonths of floN f think youre

probaby doing pretty good This is O1e of

respondent I S exhibits This is Dr Straws

photo ta~er_ in February 2007 This s

Respondents Exhibit 57pp

JUDGE VJOLGASI I (IT sory 1 whose

testimony was ~his

MS SHAMET Dr Straws The other

~h~ng that is documeGted -- Im just going to

go ahead and give you April April 2007 still

flow This is Complainants Exhibit 391 and

just ia case were llorried about March e

dont have March 2007 we have March 2003

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JIDGE SHEEHAN What drain is that

MS SHAMET This is Complainants

Exhibit 102L

JUDGE SHEEHAN What drain

MS SHAMET This is the portion of

drait six- seven as it leaves the si-se

crosses unde~~ea~h the railroad tracks to che

west and leaves the site We would also noce

chat in che 2003 hearing it was established

ard Judge ChaYlJeski acc6ped ordinary hig

watermark for the duration of the streams

leaving the site from the time they leave the

site cntil the time they wa~king distance

away hit traditionally navigable waters Now

whIle Justice Scalia said that existence of an

ordinary high waternark in and of itself does

not estabJish jurisdicion it does remair a

fact on the ground that shows the preseTlce of

f~c~J O-1r b~ief did cite in a footnote a

number of cases that describe what an ordinary

high water mark means and what it basically

means is that theres water there on enoJgh

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of a regular basis that theres no

vegetation and Dr Straw in poirtig at that

photo 57pp poined out that there was an

ordinary high watermark there e believe that

we 1ave s~ovm t2lougt t~1at eviderce as well is

that theres a regularity of flow through

these water bodies tJi th respect to Ms

~iilcher f s suprise that EA did not issue a

cease and desist order we in fact did we

issued an admif~istrative order n 2000 I

doat have the record citatio~ with me bu~ I

believe it was testified to in the 2003

tearilg In addi tion tlith respec 0 YIs

Wilchers conunent that EPA knew about the

operation before it was completed and didnt

intervere ~rat is also not correct In Culy

of 1999 EPA contacted respondent and

requested a site visit A- that time the work

was not done l6 site visit was scheduled in

-- they did the scheduling In July and the

visit was schedJled in September and in

August respor~dent brought equipment to the

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site and finished it up to present EPA with a

fai t accompli Couple other points There I s

bee~ a ~w~er of debates i~ t~e b~ie= about

briefs about whether or not there are in

fact wetlands on the sice and whether or not

they extend all the way to the tributaries

First of all ~othi~g in Rapanos altered the

EEe~gy and Water Developmert Appropriations

Act of 1993 Public Law 102377 106 Statutory

at Large 1315 in which Congress directed the

Corps of Eng~leers to use t~e 1987 wetlands

delineation nanual until a replacement manual

was established the courts have

recognized deference to the Corpss 1987

manual as the agencys interpretation of its

OvT regulatiors That manual was applied in

this case That manual when applied in this

case identifies wetlands throughout the site

JUDGE SHEEHAN A~e these -- are

these wetlands these draircs are tl_ey fed by

a1Y other source than rain

MS SHAMET No Your Honor These

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wetlands are what are called the top of the

watershed and this is why water flows in two

directions off of this site -- it flows both

west and east because its at the top of the

watershed

JUDGE SHEEHAN So any water on the

site its all rain-fed

MS SHAMET Yes The seasonality

of it however I can be established through

testimony regarding how the plants on this

site interact with that precipitation And

that testimony discusses the relationship

between whats called leap out and

transpiration In other words when the leaves

are on the trees the trees are uptaking water

from the ground -- from the groundwater table

and the groundwater table decreases and

thats why you see lower levels of water in

the summer During the winter when the leaves

are off the trees the trees are not

transpiring yet -- the water table rises and

thats why these are seasonally flowing

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s~reams and seasoca~ systems

JUDGE SHEEHAN Is there any

testirtony in the record abott the frequency of

the rain If rain is it is the source is

rain something on this property that occurs

f if -y times a year I a hundred t iITes a year t

two ~ines a year

MS SHAME= YOur Honor the

2003 record I believe there was an exhibit

and I apologize that I canZt name the exhibit

number for you right now that idenifies what

a one year storm is f what a three year stOrIT

is~ and l-lha a five year storm is in that

county and I apologize that I cant come up

with the exhibit number for you right now

JUDGE SHEEHAN vlell whats your

recolecion about it irhat it says eve if we

dont know the exhibit right now 111 just

trying to get a bead on how -- whether its

typically dry or typically wet there With

rain

MS SHAI-fET Your Hono f I cant

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recall I believe its under a~ inch -- around

a~ inch bu~ ca~t say foy su~e I look at

a lot of these for a let opound dipoundfeent areas

and I don~t want to get one mixed up with the

other

JUDGE ~]OGAST vTose testimony

we6 you reerrlg to gtThen you were discusslg

seasonality

MS SHAMET That was testimony of

Mr Martin It is at Remand Transcript 1912

~~d Rema~d Transcript 354

JUDGE STEI f he Board we~e to

conclude tha the evidence in this case meets

the Kennedy est is it necessary for theI

Board to consider whether the evidence meets

the plurality test

18 8HAMET Its the posiio1 of

EPA hat satisfying either test will establish

geographic jurisdiction under the Clean Water

Act As the Board noted all courts that have

so held have held tha~ if one meets re

Kennedy Tests then t~ats satised Ir

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a~swer actually to one of your questions I

1think Judge Steir there is one case It S an

unreported case out of the District of Hawaii

that has held that the Kennedy Test is lircited

to isolated waters and hat Y0l otherwise

apply to Scalia Test and that is Sierra vs

COJ1ty of Honolulu 2008 us Distcict EX=S

64262 1 and we would just note that that case

is inconsistent with the governing circuit

lali ts tle 9h Circuit and we believe its

inconsistent with Headlesburg and Moses but

you did ask lthether there was any case that

discussed he Sca=--~a test and that is the

only one at least Im aware of To answer

your question we believe t11at satisfying the

Kennedy Iest wOll-~d be sufficient and it would

not be necessary to reach the Scalia Test i

however we do beLeve thas weve satisfied

boh in this case and that ei ther test will do

it All through

JUDGE SHEEHAN Can you poi~t us iL

the record to what may not be a gap but it

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looks like a bit of a gap at least from the

briefs There I s a lot of testimony -- a lot of

discussion in your brief about the history

the history on the site water on the site

for exa~pe a 1953 p~cto s~ows di~ch O~e had

water I a 1937 photo one two and four had

water 1920 f USGS map had five -- ditch five

had water And then so we leap from sixty f

seventy years ago to the present decade

oegirning in 1999 middotJ~el a buner of inspectio1B

occurred mainly in 99 I and there was some

hopscotching and then they e~ded in 2007 So

he~e --- at least from the bries treres a

fairly big gap between the very very historic

taps and photos I and then ~he 1999-on

inspections and That they showed What about

the intervening

HS SHlIiCET - believe tha~ we also

discussed the USGS maps in 1994 which were

the most recent maps prior to activity As

YOUY HO1ort s aware from the Boards decisio1

in Bricks its inCUInbent upon us to show what

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the wates Jere lLlte before the activity f not

after the activity

JUDGE SHEE~~ Right bue the

before here is well before Thats my

~estion I dont see much except for that 94

map

MS SHAMET 1Ind we also used

aeria photography from 1994 and 1995 to

suppla--nent rphere I S been nO evidence in the

record that anything changed between 1994 and

1995 and the acivity in question which

started in I believe December of 98 or

Jaluary cf 1999 Ane I believe responcerts

agreed on the western side of the site in

their expert reper that the configuration

has been co~sistent si~ce 1949 up until the

time of the activity If there are any further

quest iors I woud jus smnnarize again by

pointing out that the facts this case are

veoy very siltple Ttese are wetlands theyre

clearly docJmented as wetlands the

preponderance of the evidence established the~

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as wetlands The preponderance of evidence -shy

tle overwhelming preponderance of the evidence

established that Chese wetlands are

performing actual documented functions The

very significant nexlJS that Justice Kennedy

described in h~s opinion The evidence in this

case shows that these wetlands are physically

adjacent to tributaries These are ditches

they are rranmade bu~ wo~d ~ust note that

iJ Ra9a~os itself the ditches were manmade

and no justices voted about that They flow

waking dista1ce to tradi tionally r~avigable

waters and 7hey are jllrisdictional Thank

you

MS v-JILCHER May it please the

cOJgt IrJClnt to t~lank couJsel for -aising the

tabletop analogy necause I forgot to This is

at a divide It is twenty feet above sea

level It 8 a watersted divde lke he

cortinental divide such hat water is flowirg

away it is not at the bottom of anything It

is nQ a marsh it is EDt a bog it is Lot a

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swarrcp i1-is is ar~ area where there is no

abili ty for the fJetland to capture and keep

pollutants out of a Y1avigable water because it

lrsef is a the very head of the watershed

And so trying 0 -- f you Jere able to be

there and see that~ you woald understand that

its not got the same type of functions and

values as some area ad) aca1t to below I

cach1g f pYEvertng po=-l-ltion cori1g frou a

10 of upstream areas While thats not

parricularly significant

JUDGE SHEEHIlll Havent yo just

helped ma~e te argumelOt that with gravity

lorking as it 60es any discharge of a

po1hltant up high wotld have made its way dOlJID

low f to a navigable water

MS WILCHER Yes so this is not

a rrounanols area fh=-s is a very slight

slope 11 fact to the naked eye it s almostt

hard to see a slope

JUDGE SHEEHAN Why does flow

matter as significant ~exus goes

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HS VrJCHER We11 the amount of

rur~offf qJie fr-ankly r~at would occur can

matte w~th regacd to that I do want 0

address a few absolutely incorrect things that

were stated and a couple misconceptions Let

me start with the mischaracterization of the

axpert witnesses that were hired in 2007

There seems to be some attempt to imply that

hiri1g differe1t expert witnesses to deal with

wtether this is ju-iscicto1al under Rapanos

is the same as having expert witnesses to

testify whether or not this area met the

former -- the actual definition of a wetland

Theyre two different things You can have a

wetland and it ca1 still not be

jClrisd~ctional So itS our hope that the

Board doesnt misconstrue that to say that by

hiring different fgtxperts you were trying to

get a different result which was not the case

-- its simply that if youre looking at how

much flow what the funcions of values ar-e

its a very differert thing fran sorteone who

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caL go ou~ a~d do the soil samples to

determine whats hydric and whats not

Seco~d jus~ as with regard to the

credibility of the witnesses just as there

were some -- a case perhaps whee ac-I expert

witness misstated something or changed its

rnird 1 so did some of the government I s expert

wi tnesses misstate something that then had to

be co-ected So did the brief that said

that took the word and and changed it to

Or witr regard to what Justice Kennedy hadI

written So I dont think that that in and of

itself has any significarce wi th regard to the

credibility of a witness tihen we are talking

abcu lGVJ fa this land is from a navigable

water counsel has mentioned that it S 2600I I

feet middotrhich is about half a mile or 4200

feet which is close to a mile -- thats not

to reac-t a navigabe water Let us be clear

That is to reach something that is not

necessarily an intermittent area4 EPA

stipulated l the stipulations dated

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Septewer 8th 03 that the water body

depicted and ]i5 is nurrbers 37 and 38 that

the water bodies depicted as these drainage

ditches on the site are depicted by the USGS

topa rEap at the 3allary Hill (Phonetic)

quadrangle as a broken blue line and that a

broken bae line denotes an irtermi ttent

stream These are intermittent streams ard as

Justice Sheehan has correctly noted Judge

Scalia says n mary circ1JIstarces that

intermittent streams are not jurisdictional

waters of the U S HmAever if we tun to irlhat

Custice Kennedy says thats rhece we kind of

get into the eitheror what we also find

there is a great discussion by Justice Kennedy

loiClself on 1e Ccrps definition of a

tributary Counsel was referring to the

drainage ditches as t-ibutaries ard Justice

Kennedy makes it c~ear that the corps

definition of tributary that was in effect at

tr~e time this decision was -rritter middotJsing he

high watermark was not appropriate I and would

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lead in fact to too broad a definition of what

was jurisdictional i~ and of itsef under the

Clean Water Act And theres we dont have

time to read it all but Im sure youve

probably ead it more tirres t~an have

aryay iled also jtst lke to mention tha

qui te frankly the evidence that has been

introduced in this case is the type of

evidence the Cour was r~opng would not be

Csedo prove jurisdictior on such an

important issue and that is its speculative

Its not -- were not arguing that wetlands

arent irrportart J we arent arguing that

wetlands aralt valuabe anc you know in

1990 wed say regulate because we had the

legal authority to do so This again is one

of tlese cases t1at sirrply wishing that 1_e

Q C d h dfe I~upreree o~r~ naa sal some ~~g 1 ~eren~ y

does not make it so This is what the Court

said -- thats the final word on the mater

whatever we decide ~t is bu it S tre firai

word and we c~~t change that regardless ofl

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how mportant or ho wrong someone may think

that it auld be To other quick points to

mention and that is EPA knew about this work

that was going on in February of 1999 and

that is in Jeff Lapps testimony tn Volume 1

page 167 through 169 so EA did kno Most of

t~e woyk was completed by Aprii or May of that

year before EPA every CaIne out to the site

and it wasnt until 2000 chat a notice of

violation was issued

JUDGE SHEEHamp1 So why does that

matte- That is an enforcement choice EPA makes

every day of the week and its not part of

the record i~ has nothing to do with whether

or not the Kennedy or Scalia or any other test

was met It really doesnt seem to bear on the

legal issues here

11S vIILCHER Fair enough For

purpose of ~his arg~~e~tl for t~e pur~ose of

today youre probaDly right J-luge But i~

does matcer if were talking about typical

practice of EPA and while Im well aware that

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theres no requirement to take an enforcemer-t

action in a1ything less trar this period of

statute of limitations if in fact this was as

egregious and as violative and as problematic

as counsel appears to make it seem then EPA

did have every opportlli~ity to stOy that and

in ITany many cases vlhen EP1 sees a clear

violation of the law I they simply issues a

cease and desist order and in a case like

Rapanos in the Rapacos case you have people

who are going out anc taking action and

violating the wetlands law after theyve

received many state and federal cease and

desis orders so the facts of this case are

so di==ere~t from the facts of tha~ case Here

we have someone who was trying to comply with

the law as it was written at the time in my

view he was complying with the law as it was

wri ten at tlat time actG the fact tha EPA

didnt like ~he way the law was written and

what it said and what the courts were

deciding does not give hem authority to come

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in and regulate after the fact

JUDGE WOLGAST Counsel thank you

youre Olt of if you could make your

final point n just r~e next thirty secords J

I think you saie you had two I may be

mistaken

MS WILCHER Thank you Well we

are talkirg about jurisdictio1 I do think

tha tte overall =-ssJe of equity cotes i1to

play Ar~d knowing -- even krowing what the

jurisdiction was at the time of the activities

undertaken is really kind of an unc I Qar

matter Were still struggling with what

j Clrisdict iOI is Re9rettably toat s always

been t~e problem with this program

problem Igtli th this progral7l is that Corgress did

not give us clear direction and clear guidance

to either EPA or to the Boyds or to anyone

else in the regulative corrmlUnity and I t-hink

that s a factor certainly that the court Iblil

consider ard should corsder I when making a

decision on issues of liability and in this

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND tRANSCRIBERS

~323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW i202 234-4433 WASHINGTON DC roooS-3701 WWWlI$alrgmssOOffl

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case we would ask that you do so Thank you

J1DGE voLGAST Thank YOJ Cours

thank yOJ for your arguUent and the case is

now submitted

MS DURR All rise Session of the

Environmenta Appeals Board nmv stands

adjourned

(Whereupon the above-entitled

matter was concluded at 11 16 am)

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON DC 20005-3701 wwwnealrgrossoom

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CERTIFICATE

This lS to certify tha~ ~he foregoi~g transcript

in the matter of Snith Farm 3nterprises ILC

Hon Anna Wolgast E-wironmenta Appeals Judge

Date Jaly 20 2010

Flace Washingson DC

represens the ful and complete proceedings of the

aforementio1cd marter as reported and reduced to

typewriting

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCR8ERS

1323 rOOE iSLAND AVE_ NW (202 234-4433 WASHtGON DC 20005-3701 fNWnnalrqft)6Scom

Page 3: BEFORE THE ENVIRONMENTAL APPEALS BOARD IN ... By...MS. DURR: Environmental Appeals Board of the U~ited States Environmental Protec~ion Agency is now in session for oral argument, in

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P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-K-G-S

1001 ala

MS DURR Environmental Appeals

Board of the U~ited States Environmental

Protec~ion Agency is now in session for oral

argument in re Smith Farm Enterprises LLC

docket number CJA-03 -2001-0022 CvA appeal

number- 08-02 The hono-able judges Kathie

Stein Anna Wolgast Charles Sheehan

presidirg please tJ2~ off all c 1 pholes ar~d

no recording devices allowed You may be

seated

J~DGE it(OLGAS Good nornirg v-ie ye

here today pursuant to the Boards order of

May 13th in Smith Farm Enterprises and

pursuant to tat ocder each side w~ll have

thirty minutes for argtlment and Smith Farm

play reserve five ninutes for a rebuttal if

Y0l cl1cose AncL counsel ween you make you

argument if you could state your name for the

record And with tha~ r think were ready to

p~oceed

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

132-3 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202) 234middot4433 WASHINGTOn DC 20005middot3701 wwwneallgroosoom

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MS ~JILCHER Than( you very much

I 7t LaC-uana vilcher ltlith English Lucas

iest and Owsley rile are also represented by

Hunter Sims of Kaufman and Canoles

representing STIli th Farm Enterprises LLC Also

at the table is ~im Boyd who is one of the

owners of Sr1ith Farts we would 111lt8 to

reserve our five minutes for rebuttal please

and I would also ask the Boardls indulgence

since I fro relatively nevl to this very long

cass should I need to confer with Mr Sims or

-ir Boyd durng the course of t1is discussio1

Thank yOJ very ~uch

Im here today because this is

actually a very very important case Its an

inportar~t case boh to ~he -- the Boyd family

bot1 in ers 0 the 8otiona2 and nancia

to11 it has taken over the last eleven years

but also because of the important policy

questions that are presented before this

board especially n the light of the

u~isdi ctional detelfinaions under Rapanos

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON DC 20005middot3701 wwwrealrgrosscom

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which is clearly the subject of our

conversation today

oward that end ve Jlot~d l=-ke to

jcst br~efly call to the Boards attention a

short history of the case going back to 1998

and 1999 when drainage ditches were

constructed on Smt~ Fanrs 1 some wooded

areas dra~ni1g that that land The - shy

beorepound tne proJec~ t-negan anabull was under t aken

Mr Boyd contacted and met with the Army Corps

of asked for ~heir opinion

concerning jurisdictional issues and otter

issues concerning a permit The corps of

Engineers certainly never indicated in any

fashion that there was a problen at that time

jurisdictior~aly consderirg tle wor~ that was

a~ticipated to occur

Of course were here today largely

because the whole jurisdictional issue has

been turned up Ol ts head by Rapanos in 20061

and can certainly say that Ve Vould be in a

very different situation were it back to 1989

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRBERS

323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON DC 20oo5-37D1 wwwMlllrgro01HXlffi

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or ~92 or 93 ween I was at tt8 Agency and

dealing with iss~es when then the only thing

that was necessary for the Agency to prove was

that there were waters of ~he United Sta~es

ncluding wetlands that is lands that vere

inundated or satura~ed by surface or ground

water s~ch that ~hey could and ordinarily did

support a prevalence for vegetation typically

adapted to life in saturated soil conditions

We always referred on the Riverside Bayview

case and extended the adjacency of the

wetlands to a navigable water beyond that

such tha any tine thac there were wetla~ds

that they were conside-ed to be

jlrisdictiol1al ard eniorcemalt actior~ woud

have been considered proper

In the Rapanos Case the court

talks abo~t the expanding jurisdiction by the

Corps of Engi~eers and cetainly by

extension to EPA when in many of those

circumstances EPA was pushing the Corps to

expa1d their jurisdiction And the court

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1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE Nw 2(2) 234middot4433 WASHINGTON 00 20005middot3701 WWWllealrgrC$$OO((

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po s out that tneuro Corps adopted increasingly

broad interpretations of its own regulations

Talked about the migratory bird rule It

talked about how the Corps rad exparded ~ts

own interpretations of the definition of

tributaries to include ephemeral streams ard

c~ose that ran ~hrough drainage Qitc~es And

then the plurality opinion goes on to clarify

that that type of regulation was never

intended to be covered by the Clean raer Act

as waters of the U S SOIDe of the key

JUDGE STEIN Ms Wilcher

JiS ~TIL-CrER Yes

JVDGE STEIN Has any court held

that the plurality test alone determines

jurisdiction

ItS WILCHER I do not believe

that any court has held that the plurality

test alo~e confers jurisdiction

JUDGE STEIN Okay

MS 11 I LCHER I assume that the

court wants to hear about that since it is an

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

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impotant part of the decision AQd we can

talk about significant nexus next I if thatS

okay or if you wart me to go to significant

nexus now I be happy to do that

JUDGE STE=N No thats fine you

car talk about the pluralities first but le~

me ask you if we were to find that the

eviQe~ce met as J~dge Xoran oQ~6 the

significant nexus test but for whatever

reason it didnt meet the plura~ities test l

L1en vhat is middotJ~e OJtcorneuro

MS WILCHER Now thats a very

and no one knows In the Fourth Circuit

specifically what the outcome of that -- what

the outcome would De The Rapanos test

unfortunately in an effort to reign in

jurisdicion by the Corps and EPA created

probably as many questions as it did answer

and its created a lot additional

lit~gation So we I re here synpatretic 0

EPAS plight of having to try to figure out

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISlAND AVE NW (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON DC 20005lt701 wwwnoolr9f05Sc(JITl

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what that meanS l a~d the regulated community

also rying 0 figure oat what it means

becalse it is simply not clear The Marks case

that said that you would select the nost

Earow of the interpretations n a case such

as this might be difficult to apply because

it S hard to figure out itlhat the most 1arrowI

cefinition or application of this case would

be Obviously from Smith Farms standpoint

we would be really delighted shou~d =h~s board

decide to follow the Ilarks opinion and decide

that the Scalia test would be the most

appropiae here bJt vere perfecty preparedl

to address both

JUDGE WOLGAST B~t that is -- but

yot-e assuning trat the narrowest grounds

would then be the pluralities test as opposed

to say I the narrowest ground sin-ply being

tha hey rejeced the Rapanos evicence ald

remanded the case In terms of what -- what

five justices could agree to It Jas simply

ocemand

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISlAND AVE NW Z02 24-4433 WASHINGTON DC 20005-37)1 WflW J10slrgrosscom

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MS rLCHER rgthat f S rigrLt Thats

right But i s presumed trat the CO-clrt s

reasoni1g ar~d the four -- the opinion of the

four written by Scalia the opinion of

Roberts the opinion of Justice Kennedy all

rreant sameL-hing J and hat is what we are left

to vlork within and -shy

TUDGE SHEEHAN What do you think

cf the governme~ts argument trat either test

can apply as the First and Eighth Circuits

have held

MS WI~CHER well clearly a

nillnber of circuits have held that either test

Itould apply f ard in this case we we

believe that the evidence despicB what the

ALJs have found we believe the evidence

clea~ly shows that under neither test would

this area considered to be jurisdictional

~nder the curre~t interpretatio~ of the Clean

Water Act u~der Rapanos

And I really do think chat

not wanting to lose the forest for the trees

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRA1SCAIBER3

1323 RHODE jSlAND AVE NW (202) 2344433 WASHINGTON DC 20005-370~

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here the forest -- the big picture is thatI

Rapanos is a dramatic shift in the way

busir~ess as usual has been done aL these

agencies from 1972 ~ntil 2006 It is -shy

in 2001 you had a little deviation here but

its a ilge dfference and what we find in

the brief -- and what we find in the brief of

t1e govermnent in this case is lot much of a

differerce from how the law previously lttas

interpreted and Ill -- Ill just go ahead

aYld address thae ssae and that is that the

the strongest argument it appears that

he government nakes in its brief dealing

with the significant nexus test is that

wetlands are ~rrponart ~1etlards provide

valuable functions and even Rapanos case

notes that the Clean V~ater Ac has been very

important and serves an important public

interests and Section 404 and the wetla~ds

laws i-l particuar provide ar~ irportant public

interest

JUDGE SHE1 Vie11 i 81 c the

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPOATEFlB AND TRANSCRIBERS

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governments argument that these wetlands I in

particua are important I and can you address

how these wetlands do or do not meet the

Kennedy significant nexus test

fiS WILCHER That woud be t1e

goverlli~ents argument but in this case they

have failed cO co inCroduce by a

preponderance of the evidence ~hat that is

the case

JUJGE WOLGAST Coud you describe

for us what you ~elieve the goverr~ent would

have to show at a minimum to meet Justine

Kernedys significant nexus test in this

context

MS ~iILCHER At a mini~um they

wotd have to show some measure of the effec

that would be had by this wetlands property

upor~ a navigable vater of the Uni ed States

and they have not done so ln ary regard

JUDGE SHEEHIN Wasnt there

abunda1t testimony says the gDve=runent by

expert i1itness Martin and others that there

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE SLAND AVE NW 202 234-4433 WASHNGTOtt DC 20005-3701

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was such a C oILleci en YOJ f re speakirg very

theoretically Id like if you could to get

specific about what you think the failu~es are

i~ the governments case on the Kennedy test

MS ~VIrJCHER Yes but if you -shy

+_--ne if you look at the gover1TIleuroEt s

argument one of their lengthy arguments is

about the impact 0 denitrification that

VJetlands provide an important deni trification

iss~eJ pointing out that the Chesapeake Bay

tas too rruch nityogen and tbat its important

to keep that out They talk about the fact

that n~toger coues from atrrosphe-ic

deposition They talk about the fact that

microbes in the soil vi22 break hat rtroger

down and then they talk about that once the

nitrogen is broken dmvr it ll be taken up by

the breeze and i If~ay even be given off again

into -- into the air

JDGE STEIN ltJasn f t there

plentiful testimony by government witnesses

and the companys witnesses as to what was

NEAL R GROSS COVRl REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON DC 20005middot3701 wwwnoalrgrossCCtn

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occurr~ng specifically at this site I mean

I think the challenge for the compa~y i~ this

appeal 8 that there were credibili ty findings

Chat tiere made by the ALJ as to some of the

testimony by respondents by the companys

wi tnesses and given the Board f 5 standard forJ

crecibility determinations where the 30ard

you knovl historically ove many mar~y years

gives great weight to an ALJ~s finding how is

it ha t we can ove look he ALJ S credibi lity

determinations in the face of countervai~ing

evidence ~hat the ALJ found ~o be credible

(S WILCHER Judge Stel if I

can finish Judge Sheehans question I III ge

right back 0 you on that You were wanting

some specifics and an example of what the

government tried to prove in its case By

go~ng through this whole denitrification

process they nake ~o distinction betwee~ the

value that ris particalar wetlald is making

or any paricular wetland is making I to the

denitrification 0 the Chesapeake Bay

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JUDGE SHEEHAN But the Kennedy

tea says that if wetlands aloLe or in

combination with other wetlands have that

kind of effect

115 WILCHER Wetlands alone or in

corrbinato1 with otrer wetlands or in

combination lith the uplands the arguments

~ha t tbey ace laking wOClld apply equally to

uplands and as the court noted in the Rapanos

decision applying some of these tests as the

government histori cally has applied them to

say that they are jurisdictional sirrply

because hey have value and may be somewhat

miles aay hut may have some connection or

some val~e ~i~es away being speculative in

nature does rot cause it to be

jurisdictional and it sa~d i~ so the en~ire

United States would be considered regulated

llilder tbe Clear~ ater Act

JUDGE SHEEHAN Theres ~~ theres

one and cot to get in the vay of Judge

Steins question but Qne of the exhibitsr

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Remand Exhibit 937 shows a very honeycombed

tissue through the Srith Farm weta1ds going

ou~ to the two rivers and then to the bay I~

looks sure _ surely to me it looks from this

exhibit and otes as if tl1e wetlands are very

proximate to and affect directly the waters

below Car you address that

KS WILCE2R I wil Those naps

do not show any actual measurable connection

nor do they show a contir1oJS surface

conE6ction r~avigable vrates

JUDGE SHEEHAN Why does it have to

be a surface connection tilly car_ t it be stbshy

surface if theres a hydrological link

MS WILCHER But theres ~o

showir~g of a silD-surface hydroogica liak

either Theres a total lack of evidence of

probative dence i~ th~s case to actualy

tie that paricu=-ar vletland Co a rcavigable

water which by the way you would have to gor

fcom tha wetland to a drair~age ditcr~ anc

went out there and traipsed down the site

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before I came here to talk to you about this

but youd have to go fr~~ that -- b~t this ~s

all en the record -- YOlld have to go fron

that area that might be-- that part of it that

might be considered a we~land~ through

drainage di tches t1at are only inerrrit ert

in nature and t1e evidef~ce is clear that

theYre only intermittent in nature including

the USGS blue line dotted lines and then they

would have to go from tlere to Bailey Creek

non- navigable to Drurr Point Creek

non-navigable] then to tributaries of the

westeGl branch of the Elizabeth River I which

is t~e f rst tne you I d hi a ~avigable wate

If go in the opposite

direction they would have to go from drainage

ditches to Quake~ Neck Creek to ~eans Bra~ch

which are tributaries 0 tne ravigable water

the Nansemond River 14d so there there is

no proof that there is a connection

Things could lave been done Tne-e

cOmiddotJld have been dye raclgs there cOlld have

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been a~l kinds of evidence hey could have

taken samples they could have done

quantitative analysis There is no chemical

evidence there is no physical evidence there

is no biological evidence that connecs this

to a navigable water f and therein lies the

problem

JJDGE TO~GAST Justa if I

could follow up on that before we get back to

cred~bility iss~es

MS HLCHER Okay

JUDGE WOLGAST Are you saying that

the fact they floTlI throJgh ditches is a

jurisdictional problem

MS 1tILCHER Not particularly

JUXE vIOLGASI And the1 get ~ ing

back to the testimony that Judge Sheehan was

referring to where JIdge Morar was referring

to the testimony of Mr Rhodes and Mr Martin

that the property provides flood storage flow

moderaion carbOIl sequestration vlater

purification denitrification what I want to

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undsystard aboJt your argument 1s are these

aspects insufficient or would they be

sufficient if in your mind there was more

evidence of the connection of these attributes

to the Nansemond or Elizabeth Rivers

MS iILCHER EPA -- the govenment

cant simply say that wetlands are valuable

because they are-- help prevent flooding and

not show that they would help prevent flooding

in this particular case and that it would

significantly help prevent flooding in t~is

partcular case lrJha ttey have done toe

Drie is to siIply lay down he well-knoJl

attributes a~d valuable functions and values

of wetlands and said therefore this is

having a significant effect on navigable

~ivers Theye is not a co~~ection they have

lot snoltm by a1y credible evidence cause and

effect of any sigrifcant iIEpact tpon thef

navigable rivers

JUDGE SHEEHAN But you make

again a very theoretical argument about the

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fact Chat the goverruuent just argues wetlands

fgelerally but werer t government wi tnesses

crawling allover this property mul iple

times testify~ng at great lengtl lots of

exhibits aerials historc maps and

everythi~g else to show in this case fo~ this

property there was trat link Its hard to

believe with all that 11Bssive Estimony and

getting to ~he credibility issue that he

governrrent doesn~t have a pretty solid case

rat hat nexus sat) sfyilg the Kennedy test

exists

MS WILCHER It is hard to

believe I totally agree It is hard to

believe Tle governmert has had unfettered

aCCess to this property for over a decade and

have failed 0 develop flmr drainage elements

they cant show how illuch flows off the site

they cant show vhat type of sediment runoff

might have occurred at ~he site ~hey ca~tt

show what type of water retention is teld Jy

the site t~ey have been unable to show any

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ecoogical cC1nection 1tith regard to wildlife

there was a Woodcock seen on the site There

is absolutely -- and its amazing to me hat

tr~ere is a void

JUDGE STEIN But isnt the test a

nexus a significant nexus not this

sJbstantial inpacts est that I hear wove]

through some of your statements and T dont

-- when I go back and I look at the Kennedy

opinion you knot] and some of he hings t1at

are cited I dont necessarily see that that

test requires the level of proof that youre

stggesing is reqJired ny hat test So

perhaps you could explain to me based on the

Kennedy opinion how you get from there to the

level of proof Lhat you re a5~ing for f just to

establish jurisdiction

MS WILCHER Certainly

JUDGE STEIN I mean I we re not

here to determire you know penalty or

anything else were here just to figure out

if youre even i~ tbe door

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MS IILCHER Yes understand

Ie 1 1 what Justice Kennedy said was to talk

abmlt he fJay the Corps nac typically

regulated wetlalds and then to say absent

more speciic regulations however the Corps

must establish a significant nexus on a case

by case bBSS wler it seeks to regulate

wetlands based on adjacency to non-navigable

tributaries and then it goes on to say given

the potential over breath of the Corps yen s

regulations this showing is necessary to

avoid unreasoDable applications of the

statute

The justice wrote I no~ just a

~exus if the COurt had only said there has to

be a nexus then o~e would have a different

burden of proof in this case the court said

a significant nexus and we have to assnne

that a significant nexus is meaningful that

those words mean SOIEethi1g So theres a -- at

least a two-step process One to show that

theres a nexus and the other is to show that

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its significant and that is what the record

is devoid 0 in this particular case

JUDGE SlEIN But its not a

significa1t impact its a significant nexus

MS iILCHER Thats right a

significant nexus And the sigrificart rexus

must -- and if YOu read through the rest of

the case it talks abolt hm -- that in order

to regulate land as water there must be some

type of impact on the water

JUDGE SHEEHAN Justice Kennedy

also uses a phrase that think is pertinent

here r he says that the how -- how the proof is

determined has to be done in a practical way

ard i almost sounds as if what you I re

requiing is that the governrrent set up flow

meers or pour a vial of discharge into a

ditch and see if it eventually ends up in the

Chesapeake or do something on a very

impractical scale to prove ~he connectio~

MS WILCHER You know this is a

really important issue The governrrent has to

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do sOIething oJer than to make allegations r

especially in a case where youpoundre dealing with

constitutional issues such as privae property

rights and how one car jse his own property

or hers and in this case I there are lots of

things tha~ EPA historically has done for

ypcal NPDES cases But when you before he

Board on a NPDES case theres at least some

measure If they had had pictures that there

las a plurne comir_g off of this wetlar~d if

theyd done any flow calculations if theyd

had any physical chemical biological

evidence of a nexJS and a signiican- nexus to

the navigable waters which again( are not the

ditches they are the ditches that flow to the

creek that flow 0 the creek that flow 0 the

navigable waters j then it would be a different

case but that is not what has happened in

this case

JUDGE IJOLGAST Well as you say

the goverIl1lent obviously has the burden of

proof i~ a~ eLfo~cerne~t case l but is this the

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same type of evidence that you thirk a

_a~Qowne~ should Lndertake I mean obviouslY

they have the burden to obtain a permit where

there is potential jurisdiction

I~S ~JILCaER Btt if the person

doesnt obtain a permit ~~ and the government

thinks that theyre i~ error again the

government always has the burden of proof

JUDGE vJOLGAST Right but J 1m

talking about getting a -- yOJ know starding

in the landowners shoes before weve ever

gotten to an enforceme1t case it -- it I

mean I ~h~nk theres some iSS48 with getting

back to the Supreme Court case that one of

he things that were concerned about - at

least lJustice Scalia pointed to was how much

evidence time money it takes to vJOrk

thro~gh ~h~s process and it sou~ds like the

yeLl know r the advocacy here is that there

should be more not less

)15 ~JLC1ER There stou1d be

something dore by the government in thi s

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regayd to actually prove a nexus and a

sgnificant nexus ard in this ease I canr

assuye you Judge Wolgast that the l~downer

has go~e above and beyond the oall of duty

going to the Corps time after ti~e having the

Corps ou to tr~e site and having spent talk

about the time and money and investmert having

his case as understand it having spent

over $800 000 in litiga~ion costs to try to

pr-otect what was legal at tl~e time that it was

aone and so -- so there is a burden

The governme1t has the burden aid

in this case in this par~icular case they

failed to meel it I don I t know why I haven [t

been involved that lor~g ~ would speculate

tl1at by the time he Rapanos case cane along

it V~as jlSt too hard to go back and find the

type of probative evidence that would carry

the cay_

I do not necessaily thirk that

its an impossible tas~ There have been ot~er

cases that ve reviewed aihere the goverrUent

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has irtroduced evidence of the poundows tr~e

amount of drainage that has occurred how much

water might be taken up by a wetland area$ but

none of that was done in thi s particular case

and again we can only speculated why that

was the case

JDDGE STIN How does tr_s S~xth

Circuit decision in the Cundl f f matter bear on

your view that the -- you need some sort of

laboratocy araysis to prove h~s7

MS ~VILCHER in that

particular easel you dont have as I ~ecall

the -- the disarce roIT a navigable waer

tha t we have here [ and I think the farther you

are away from a navigable water the harder it

is 0 prove tha~ theres any impact on that

navigable water and in this -- again in this

case they are far away from a navigable

water and I think toe reaSC1 tha~ we don

see the p=oof is because its not there itS

not developable and that is why it is not

Cere Did yOl wart De to ~~

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JUDGE STEIN I do wact you to get

the credibility question

MS bull WILCHER I dian t t want to

forget your - shy

JUDGE STEIN No while we we~e on

this topic why cor t t yOJ addres s the

credibility question

MS vILCHER I think its an

important question IC t S a real important

question and that is simply that s even though

the regtllatior~s do provide that typicaily when

the ALJ hears the witnesses and makes

determinations 0 ~~eir credib~~ity that

typically this Board will defer to that

However in this case a carefctl review of the

record shows that the ALJs just got it wrong

and it is within this Boards prerogative to

look at the -- look at t1e factors tha

that the ALJs used in making their

deterninatior and make a judgreJt aboJt

wl1ether those factors are sufficient

A couple of examples There was a

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mar who had Iived OT the farm for h~rty years

who testified that he I d walked over the farm

for thir~y years and testified that in fact

Ithe streams J or the drainage di tches were

intermittent in nature and did not carry water

I - 1 h d - a11 th e trre bull e __ t e JU ge ~n tHe QeClS10n

said well I think hes a nice man I think

hes beholden to the Smi ths f and he was just

Ollt or a wa so totally just discounted his

testimony saying he WBS just out on a walkJ

as if that meant t~at somebodywQuldnt no~ice

DGE ~vOGAST ~ Are yot saying

though that it would have to carry water all

tre time

MS vHLCHER No no But but

it f s clearly -- is Eot a navigable water lor

it is adjacent nor is the wetland adjacent to

a navigable water in this case It flows

anything t~at =lows opound= of t~at a~ea that has

been considered to be wetland by the

goverr-Uent flows -rxough drainage ditches

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that are only intermittent in nature and

~herefore are ~ot co~sidered to be navigable

watsYs clea~ly urder the Rapanos decison

JUDGE SHEEHAN But if the man

walking the land said that they were

intermittent and youre saying intermittent

doesnt matter

I~S IgtlILCHER Were saying that -shy

Judge Cha~eski as I recall said tha~ there

was a c01tinuOU5 flow of 5088 kind isnt that

-- d~~lt J~dge Char~eski say that

WOLGAST lrJell Justice

Scalia said that even after that -shy

HS WILCHER Right right

JUDGE WOLGASl That that

seasonal flow could establish jurisdiction

~nder the pluralitoes test

148 t-JILCEER BJt there s not beenj

seascnal flow established -=-n this case Yot

have somebody going out there en particular

days after these ditches have been dug which

we all know alter the flow in drainage after

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the eLi tches are dug ftJaer goes to the lowest

level and so theres going to be more water

draining OU= of there t~a~ ~here would have

been in 1998 and 1999 and that -- that is

clear ~tat ~tere is no ev~de~ce ac the time

this was done they were -- they were anything

but inerYlitten and here l s no j1risdictiola1

connection that they have proven to date

JUDGE ~JOLGAST And what do you

think they would have had to have shown to

show seasonal flow

MS ~IILCHER Well they could

have done something more than go out there

nine times over tbe course of a year rrhey

could have had aerial photographs taken Ihey

cod have -- weil first yOl have the uSGS -shy

you have the USGS maps as showing its

inteYrnittent and theres lierally no

testimony en the record right now to show that

theyre anything but interrrdtent Ot-her than

to say that if somebody goes out there ~ine

Cimes and looks at the flow and sees water

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then -- agair~1 keeping ir mind this was years

atel 1_8 dainage d=- tches tver-e dtg ha t were

channeling more water into the old one through

seven drainage areas there B nothing tof

establish what was the~e at ~he time in 1998

a~d 1999

JUDGE VlOLG~rST And I think

isnt this what courts are struggling with in

the sense that its -- its one thing to say

~ts ~~ter~itte~tf b~t is that good enough I

mean I dont you have to figure out just how

much flow in you know what period of time

or the idea that -- I dont -- if someoae

says t~at its intermitte~t Irr not sure that

means its ir~ or out without further evidence

MS WILCHER Right Well that

shows really the that shows arguably a

cQnYlecion Bu how rrlcr =ow is going through

there whether sediment loading is going

through there whether theres an ecological

connection through there all these whethers

lead to whether t~e~e is a sig~ificant nex~s

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to a navigable water and if you look at some

of the other cases ~here has been that kiLd of

information introduced and in this case there

is none

JUDGE vJOLG1ST hhat case are you

thinking of

MS vJILCiER I thirki1g maybe

t was the Precon case ir - - in the Eastern

District of Virginia Its on appeal in the

Fourth Circuit I may r~ve been ~hat BJt

I 11 be happy to provide some cases -- a case

or cases later on that show the type of

evidence that tas been introdJced because I

remember reading about them and cant think of

the name right now

TlDGE SHEEIiAN I Vant to go back

for a moment to Judge Stein J s question about

credibility

gtIS CLCHER YOS

JUDGE SHEEHAN So ALJ Moran sat

through days and days of testimony on the

bench a lot of pecple ~n ~~at witness chair

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Hes there hes on he scere hes

~nterpreting the way the witnesses speak and

their basic credibility which you can only do

face to face in that way Wha~ is it about

what happened there that causes you to think

theres sOne way or some reason for as not to

credit the typ~cal deferehce we would extend

There must be some exception here that we ~eed

0 know about for that to happen

MS WLCHER tAJel1 r ard there are

a few facts that I think would be relevant to

your consideration in that case In the first

instance some of these wi~nesses that the ALJ

deter~ined were not credible --Jere stipJlated

as being expert vtitnesses and hat shows at

least sorre level of credibility in the mind of

the government w th regaro to whetJ~er they

were experts in the field

Second some of the criticisms

in one case a criticism that an ALJ made of an

expert wi tness was that he had not beer~ 0 the

site often enocgh yet vith one of the

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gover~ors -~ goverG~entls expert witnesses

that person had been to the site less times

t1an t1e Srith Farms expert witress A1C SO

there is a confounding sense that in this

particular case for whatever reason if the

experts agreed ~ th r~e goverr_rne1t f they were

credible and that if they di~~t they were

not

It just seems highly unlikely that

every single witness iltroduced by Smith

Far~s and Ive had the pleasure of working

wi th Mr Boyd and it lS just I think

statistically urEkely that one could End

that many unmiddotmiddotmiddotcredible witnesses and in thisf

case I do not believe that they were not

credib2e I believe they were as credible ald

as I mentioned in some cases were stipulated

in beirg expert w~t~esses ~~

JUDGE SHEEHAN So you didnt

believe they were

HS WICHER I did not bel ieve

they were not credible so I believed that

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they were credible And -- and it is sOIEewhat

confoundirg other than to say that the

closest thing that I could figure out was that

if hey supported t~e governments viev tey

were credible and if they did not support the

governments Vlew I they were not

CJDGE trrOGAST But dien f t Judge

Moran find that -- and to generalize ---- that

the witnesses failed to establish that to the

exent t1ere were weta1ds they -lere isolated

by on-hydric soil lasnt that a central part

of his credibility determination

MS ~vILCHER Well trat S O1e of

the findings that Judge Moran made but in

this paricular case keep in mind its not

Smi Parms tha-c has 0 show that there is a

break or a barrier -- its the government who

has to show that the~e is a con~ection

JUDGE liOLGAST Of

understand Right

HS IIILCHER So theres cerainly

pockets of non-hyd~ic soil in tte area and

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for SOle reaSCl EPA _ ar~d again this is just

ki~d of amazing to me

spent this long on that EPA did not go out

there and do a typical delneaion of the

site and this is something that is cypically

done Its amazing that EPA did not issue a

cease and desist order as soon as t~ey ~~ew

abouc it There are many things that to me

are amazing about this case that quite

frarky I are he easor that I came nere to

argue it Because lIm a strong believer in

protecting the Clean Water Act and in

protec~ing lteta-ds and you mayor may lOot

know from my history I I bear a lot of scars

from having trIown myself in the body of

wetlands protection bac~ in the days ana I

still believe its an important thing to do

But I also believe its important to follow

~~e rule of law and ~n chis case Mr Boyd

made every effort to follow the rule of law

and I bel ieve he did and when it did not work

out tte way that EPA wanted the law to be

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this enforcement action came forward at a

time -- and had they intervened early on i~

t~is case they cou~d have stopped They knew

months before the work was cOITpleted -- hey

knew months before the work was completed that

there was ditching and draining going on

t~ere and trey did no move in quickly to try

to resolve that case ar~d they could have -shy

they could have stopped most of the so called

harm that they are now alleging but chose not

to do so ~~ey dd ~ot do a deineaLion they

did not inroduce proof that this particular

part of property has a significant nexus to

jurisdictional waters of the United States to

a navigable water of the United States I and

thats the reason I~ he~e

JJDGE VJOLGASI I see your time is

expired if theres no other questions

MS WILCHER Thank you

MS S~J~ET~ Good morning You=

Honors My name is Stefania Shaliat and I

represent Region III in this matter

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specifically the complainants who are the

division directors for the Environmental

Assessment a1d Irr~ovation Divisio1 and he

vater Protection Division I at EPA Regio11 III

With me at counsel table Id like to

i~troduce DO1la Carner-Tal f who is regulatory

co-msel for the Nc-folk District Army Corps of

Engineers and Karen ~lendelowskl gt who is with

the office of general cour~sel and also we

have a disirglshed g1e8 1$ d lke to

introd~ce -- si~~ing behind me is Dr Dennis

Whigham with the Smithsonian Environmental

Resea=cr Cente- Your Honors responders have

do~e ~~ if I ca~ get in a couple points -- a

good job of obfuscating what are really very I

very simple facts here The simple facts are

hat these are tllelands perfouuiq docurrenced

functions that are delivered to tributaries

These wetlands are adj acent physically

trose trib-ltaries f ard those

tr lbtacies flow to traditiorally navigable

waters to the West 2600 feet away to the

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East 4200 feet away In other words the are

wetlands adjacent to tributaries that low

waki1g clstance to tr-adi ional1y navigable

waters These Vetlfu1ds were jurisdictional

under SWANCC as respondent conceded in Clean

~later Act Appeal mmber 05-05 when respondent

reseved argll1snt on jtrisdicto1 but chose

not to raise it un~il there was a change in

case law They continue to be jurisdictional

under any standard enunciated by he Supreme

Court in Rap~~os The qJan~u~ of proof offeree

by the complaina1ts i1 this matter not only

exceeds preponderance of the evidence it

exceeds any quantum of proof required by

Rapanos In fact t far exceeds it Another

thirg that is obscured in the ar9J11ent here by

the respondents is that up until 2007

respondents had a different set of expert

witnesses It las tlose expert witresses that

coroplainalts stipulated 1heir expertise was

in wetlands identification and the connection

of wetlands to waters of the uniced States

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Ihose witnesses largely agee with

complainac1t I s version of the facts on the

ground ae-d i wasnt until 2007 when

respondents hired a new set of expert

witnesses that any real dispute arose about

what exactly was going on in the site There

was dispute about ithat hat nean f but not

exacly what the physical characteristics of

t21e si te ere

J1DGE WOLGAST Counsel coud you

address Ms wilchers points that while there

may be flow moderation carbon sequestration

there may be some evidence that the government

hasnt shmlTI a nexus between those

characterist~cs and the ~avigable waters

vIS SHAME Sure First of alI

the evi6erce of Je fuYlctions beirg performed

on this S1 te is not speculative There are

photo after photo and testimony after

testimony the governments evidence is based

or established scientific literature that

identifies something called field indicators

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-- physical characteristcs on the ground -shy

that when identified correlate to a specific

functi~n being formed by the wetland In this

case there are three Tr~e first was fow

noderaiou and one of the physical

characteristics thez-e would be such things as

ponding you see a lot of later being

captured in low levels depressional levels

withir the wetland Tle record conta1s dozens

of photos of that The secord is

denitrification and that is the microbes

llptaking nitrogen in the soil That indicator

is something called modelirg i1 he soil It sI

a red spotch Essentially it IEeans that iron

is there That evidence comes not only from

the complainants but if one were to reviel

the soi 18 expert froIT respordent Dr Parkers

O~ I-fr arlter f s firs expe~t repo-t ir

20C3 he describes modeling in his sails The

third is primary production That is the1

contribution of a food source Taking

transforming organics that a2e in the _- in

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nature into a food source in water that then

tralsports that food source dowYlsream to

higher trophic organisms The best evidence of

that actually comes from one of respondents

experts Dr Cahoot 1110 photographed it

leaving the site I cant find the photo at

the marneYlt f blt I 11 describe what he says

Foaing a he confluence of the ditch

leaving the property with ditches along the

property boundary near the railroad This foam

vias also sampled and examined microscopically

--- it contained primary plant debris some

peller ald rllnero-lS sma oil droplets These

oil droplets in my opinion were probably

plant oils derived froI decomposition of the

organic matter in this area That description

correlates perfectly with the description in

the testimony in tZ1e remand hearng about what

primary production s the transport of

particulate and dissolved organics downstream

as a food sOJce So the -Jse 0 the -- t~1e

functions this case are not speculative

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theyre clearly being per-formed theyre

clearly being cocC1ented as beir~g perforrred on

this wetland Theres also evidence of the

hydrologic connection between this wetland

the ibuaries and the downst-eam

trad~tionally r~avigable waers Again that

comes both frOIE complainant ~ s experts as well

as some of respondents experts one of

respondent I s experts described tr_at hydrologic

co~nectio3 as such He descrbed the wetland

as a table tcp on which somebody pours water

the water comes off of that table top into

the ditches and then tansports down to the

taditional1y navigable waers The sane

expert lgtIr Wolf also agreed that the

wetlands on the site were in fact

hydrologically conYlected to the di tches wr~ich

forrr tributaries and lJlere n fact adjacs1t to

them So we also have fUTIction ard we have

transport Now with respect to Ms Wilchers

corrment -shy

JUJGE WOLGAS~ is YoDr

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posi tion on the type of evidence that you

need to show nexus of

characteristics you see on site to the

navigable waters

gt1S SHAtvET My positio1 is tha we

met it exactly and I would refer you to

Justice Kennedys opinion Justice Kenledy

ide~tified the type of functions that he would

consider to form a significant nexus

traditional navigable waters and those are

p~ecisely the functions that were identified

on this site Specifically Justice Ker-nedy

refers to slowirg COt-C of surface runoff r

filtration and purification -- that would be

in on 547 US 773 to 75 He sta~es with respect

to weta1ds f the rationale for the Cleal ~fater

Act regulation is as the Corps as recognized

that vetlands can perforrl cri tica2 functioES

re2-ated to the integrity of other waters

functions such as pollutant trapping -- in

other words l denirifcatior~ -- flood control

flow moderation and ruriOff storage

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Ther-efore the types of functions that we

docrraented as beng performed or this site are

precisely the ypes of unctiors tha Jusice

Ken1edy ide1tified J in his opinion as the

type of functions that form a significant

nexus

JUDGE SHEEHAN In in your

brief on page 46 you say that the Kennedy

Test requiEs weta1ds cont-ibutions to the

physical c1emical or biologic in-egrity of

doOrIlstream waters -- is it nor or Hand Your

brief says or

MS SHAMET The brief says II or -shy

JUDGE SHEEHAN Because if it can

De just one of those -shy

SHA4ET I believe Justice

Kennedy did use and however it is c2ear

that he does not require a function to

contribute to all ~hree factors and chats

clear from the function he identifies

JUDGE SHEEHAN Then why did he say

and

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MS SHAMET I think he said and II

but he had a comraa and a1d he was -eferring

to a list of examples rather than a standard

i1ith respect to Ms Wilchers cormnent that we

dont have any photographs of pltLnes as I

indicatedf one were to trt 0 R Ex 28 f

which llnfortunatey I can f find right now I

ltlhich is Respondent 1 s Exhibit 28 from the

first hearing in 2003 Dr Cahoon provides a

picture of that plume himself I would also

point out that with respect to

denitriication one wouldnt expect to see a

pInrr -- thats the exact point its to hold

Che nitrogen on the wetland -lot send it

downstream

JUDGE STEIN How is the Rapanos

significant nexus test d_fferent if at all

=rom the nexus i~ Rivervew Rverside

Bayview

MS SHAMEl Riverside Bayvie

assumed a nexus based upon adjacencYi in this

case lJustice Kennedy has asked that we

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actually go forward and establish that the

nexus exists rather than simply assuming itI

based On adjacency

JUDGE SHEEHamp~ on page 41 of your

brief you quote some of the tesciroo1Y of the

first ALJ hearing I which sounds a lit~le more

entative to me tha1 youre souidir_g today

about the substa1tial nexus test being met

The brief~ at page 41 reads that these

wetlands are more likely to perform

denitrification more likely to allow for

suspended settlements -- sediments to settle

out~ more likely to support a different suite

of wildlife species that to me is

lar-guage ~rats ~ot qui~e as powerful as

saying there is a substantial nexus met here

that just sounds -- can yo~ address what seems

to be more diffident language in your brief

than what youre articulating today

MS SHAMET Well as Your Honor

pointed out T the language that you pointed to

in the brief is from the 2003 hearing before

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tr~e Rapanos case As the Board is avlare J he

EPP~ agreed and argued that the evidence to

satisfy Rapanos had not been fl11y developed

as of 2003 and this precisely why we

requested a remand

JUDGE SHEEHAN But youre cit i ng

it here filed long after Rapanos as if its

still your position

MS SHAME~ I cited a lot of other

evidence as lJell Your Honor incLuding the

testimory of Mr Rhodes he testi~cny of Dr

~fhigham and the testimony the f1Tther

estimony of Hr Mart So while that is a

piece of evidence it is certainly not the

only evidence cited in our brief

JUDGE WOLGAS~ ~o go back to the

point you were making earlier about how the -shy

in essence the three-part test is the same

type of evidence yo~ would look to to

establish sign~ficant nexus ard Justice

Kernedy did seer to speak to hat saying much

the sarre evidence I referring to tre Corps ssect

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delineation manual type evidence should

P8nnit the establishment of a significant

nexus witr navigable wates

particularly if supplemented by further

ev~dence abou~ the significance of the

tributaries to which the wetlands are

cO11ected How does the gove-nment interpret

the latter part of that quote

MS SILllltlECmiddot I think that the

government needs to show and has shown in

this case that there is an ability of those

trihttayies Co conect the wetlands to a

traditionally navigable water in such a way

that the poundtnctions are delivered In this case

we have certainly shown the hydrologic

cO1nect=-o1 some of respondents expe-ts have

agreed with us that that connection exists and

tha there is sufic8Ylt ~hat there is

water exchange there and weve also shown

that heres proxirrity here again these are

walking distance to traditionally navigable

waters this is not the Rapanos case where it

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traveled 32 miles So we think we have met

that burden here by sho~Jing the hydrologic

connection and showing that these tributaries

are capable of delivering the function With

respect to cr-edibi=-ity and he points that

Your HOlors asked of AS Wilcher I would just

point out tha~ lTudge lvlorans credibility

determination was based on demeanor and also

on the facts of this case An important fact

to note for insta11ce is in the firstF

r~earing in 2003 respondent I s soils exper

who laid a g=id fOJnc 53 ou 55 sarnples

hydric The only two that were non-hydric had

JUDGE STEIN I couldnt hear you

MS SHApoundT Had 53 Oelt of 55 soil

sa~ples he identified as hydric in the site

soEs or ei ther side In the secord heaocilg

Dr Pierce testified that there was

essentially non-hydric soils everywhere And

on cross-examination he was asked didn t youI

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find any hydric soils and he said oc yeah

I found them I just didnt click on my GS

locator and ider~tify where they were and I

just didn It report them He only reported the

non-hydric soEs That is the kind of thing

that happened that caused Jtdge l-loran 0 find

a lack of c-edibility vvlth respect to 9r

Straw Dr Straws expert report disc1ssed

undulations in the landscape that he

interpreted to mean ere were no wetlands

tlere On the sand he conceded trat there

were no u1dulaions on tr~e landscape -- he had

mis~nterpreted the aeria= photo More

importantly he conceded ~hat he knew about

ha t erroy before the hearing and leverf

corrected it until cross-exa~ination Judge

Moran had ample basis for finding no

credibility on those witnesses

JUDGE SEIN Is it your view tha~

the Board has no authority to overrale an

ALJs credibility determination

MS SHAl-1ET No YOJr Honor the

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Board reviews he case de novo lffuile the

Board certainly defer to the ALJ r s credibili ty

determination what I run saying that in this

case t~ere is no basis for overturn~~g it

JUDGE STEIl If we were to

overturn it -- a credibility determination

what kinds of factors r it your view s1ould 18

be taking into aCCo4nt

MS S~~~ET I would think you

oelld be looking to see whether or not the ALJ

has a rational basis oh gosh I hate to use

legal standards like that -- but some sort of

bass or hich he based his credibiliy

deerrtination that he explained why there was

a lack of credibility and I think in this

case he did so amply

JUDGE SHEEHAJ If Ms v~i 1 cher S

correct characterizing the way testimony

cedibclity went i soanced almost like a

hundred percent credit to government

witnesses and practically zero to

respondens witnesses f tratg acctrate

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jus stipulat-=-ng 0 trat assumption - - if

t~atfs accu~ate would that be a basis fer not

allcwing deerence to Jdge Morans

credibility determinations if its so

lopsided

ocs SH_~ET In this case I would

say no just simply because in this case we

have a classic battle of the experts I but

oddly enough the ba~~ling experts are al on

respondents side And )hat we have are

experts whD ~estif~ed in 2007 who flat

disagreed wit the testimony of respordent S

experts in 2003 without any atterrpt by the

2007 experts or respondents to reconcie

that testiITony Given that circumstance it sf

not surp-isirg that the experts in 2007 s

testimony were given very litte weight One

of the things that Hs ltJilcher referred 0 was

unfettered access to the site If anyone had

u~fettered access to the site~ it was

respondent and yet there are no photos in the

record showing the streaL~S leaving the site

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dry except during a drought

JUDGE VOLGAST But her point was

tha t the goverrunert ~as the bmiddoturden here

MS SHlHEI And the burden -- he

government has met the burden In fact in

this case the preponderance 0 the evidence

literally the only evidence other than

testirrony by the site owner testimony by

someone who walks around a three-hu1dred-acre

site hunting and looki1g for damage in che

fieds which lS what he estified he was

doing there and photographs taken during a

d--ought he oV9rtlhe=Iilg evidence is that the

waters do flow on a regular basis First of

all these waers have been napped the

waters leaving the site -- as flovving water by

USGS for hal f a century

JUDGE vIOLGAST Yo mentioned that

the waters flow on a regular basis Is that a

conir~uols bas~s

MS SHAMET We would say it would

be part of every year Your Honor

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JUDGE SHEEHAJ Tlen W1Y 18 that

necessarily continual The Scalia Test now

that veve 901e to continual flow is jilst

that -- there has to be continual flow He

says even the least significant of the lake

river ocealS or streams the four water

bodies the least significant steams has to

have COlticua you

repeatedly say - make other instances that

are to me a lot less cor~fdent t1~an what

Scalia seems to deilland You say page 31 the

drains flow at least part of every yeari page

35 at least SOme portion of every year at

least at least at least it comes up

repeated-ly in YOlr brief vlhich couid be just

one rain event So theres one rain at least

it flows one or two days after the rain aod

thats certainly a far cry I would argue

from continual So can you address the seeming

gap between your statemen~s and what Scalia

seems to demand as far as continual flow

~S SHk1ET Ie would state that

Your

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Justice Sca~ia described re1ativey permanent

wateYs He made pretty clear wrat teose were

He did~t require any specific n~~er of days

of flow -- what he did say was common sense

and common usage distinguished between a wash

and a seasoral river and tha f s in foot1ote

five respondent likes to use the term

intermitten~ a lot but the one thing it is

clear from footnote 5 is that Justice Scalia

does not give the term intermittent any

ocegulatoY import trJhy Because he

specifically decli~ed ~o define it

JUDGE SHEEHAN Why doesnt he give

it regulatory import when at least seven

tirres by ely count in his opinion he says

iEtermi tent waters do not cca11 fy as

jurisdictional -- he even calls it an oxymQron

ac one point

~S SHAMET Even though he does

not -- he declines ~o defihe it He says that

thee are defiritions 0 nterrnttent bu he

sees 10 reason to identify what tlose are

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here I and then he specifically says I We have

no occasion in this litigation to decide

exacty whe1 he cryirg up of a streambed is

continuous and frequent enough to disqualify

tle channel as a water 0 the Cnited States

~jUDGE SHEEI-IAN I know we can t -shy

aobody knows what intermitter~t meaJs with

aOsol~te rigor thas obviously subject to

interpretation But the fact is he

contlnmiddotually rejects intermitten~ waters

whatever that Ireans as jurisdictional a1d

you say intermittent doesnt matter I dont

know how yot can say lat in the face cf al

his statements that intermittent does w~tter

HS SHAMET I think the evidence

dernorstrates pretty clearly that ther-e is

regular flow on a regular basis in these

wateTs A good exaTIple

JUDGE SHEEH1ll~ Im not talking

about the eviderce 1lT talking about the

standard

MS SHAIjET The standard lS that

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there has to be a relatvely pe-mar_ent tvater

It cant be a wash it cant be someLhing that

flows only occasionally only in response co

a very strong rainfall i~ cant be a gutter

It has to be a geographic feature ~~d in this

case we have USGS mapping these as geographic

features conainng Vlaer for over ffty

years which if thatis not relatively

permanent I In not qui te sure what would be

JUDGE SHEEHAN C-ne1 how else - shy

why else -- why is it that you cannot muster

more behind your argument that these are

lowing dyains tha1 just saying at least part

of the year continually You never say its

continual you never say its relatively

permanert ane not interrrittert you seem to

stay away from saying that and it seems

purposeful because it happens so frequently

1 S SHAHET ~J e dont

over~exaggerate our evidence we say what it

is And in this case what we r re saying is Ie

agree hsse styeams dry up for part of ~he

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year VJe f ve never argued that these were

perennial streams because theyre not They

are streams that only flow for part of the

year But part of the year is good enough

1nder Jtstice Scalia f s test These are rot

washes theyre ~ot t ckles When they flow

t1ey flow As Jlldge Mo-an pointed out I the

record is replete wi th photos of these streams

flowing and floling wi th a good arnount ofI

water them Now for exanpJe -shy

JUDGE SHEEHlll Flowing at least

part of the year right

MS SHAME~ Flowirg at least part

of the year If I could get the photo up An

example is ~his series of photos~ if we can

get it up If not Ill jus give tre exhibit

numbers Not a perfect picture This photo was

taken in December 2006 As you can see

theres visible flow in the stream A1d this

is Complainants Exhibit 328 co~plai~ants

Ex-hibit 308 - sarre sreart same location you

can tell by the cross January 07 J still

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lt- Low~ng

JUDGE SHEElI1N ~Iha t does tha t

realy prove YOJ cOl-=d go out right after a

rain as apparently happenedi apparently Dr

Whigham went out afte rain irw 07 ard Judge

Moran noted that he was out two days after a

big rain so naturally the drains were full

DJ showing us occasiQral ~-

IS SHAlyenjET If you can show four

sraight lonths of floN f think youre

probaby doing pretty good This is O1e of

respondent I S exhibits This is Dr Straws

photo ta~er_ in February 2007 This s

Respondents Exhibit 57pp

JUDGE VJOLGASI I (IT sory 1 whose

testimony was ~his

MS SHAMET Dr Straws The other

~h~ng that is documeGted -- Im just going to

go ahead and give you April April 2007 still

flow This is Complainants Exhibit 391 and

just ia case were llorried about March e

dont have March 2007 we have March 2003

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JIDGE SHEEHAN What drain is that

MS SHAMET This is Complainants

Exhibit 102L

JUDGE SHEEHAN What drain

MS SHAMET This is the portion of

drait six- seven as it leaves the si-se

crosses unde~~ea~h the railroad tracks to che

west and leaves the site We would also noce

chat in che 2003 hearing it was established

ard Judge ChaYlJeski acc6ped ordinary hig

watermark for the duration of the streams

leaving the site from the time they leave the

site cntil the time they wa~king distance

away hit traditionally navigable waters Now

whIle Justice Scalia said that existence of an

ordinary high waternark in and of itself does

not estabJish jurisdicion it does remair a

fact on the ground that shows the preseTlce of

f~c~J O-1r b~ief did cite in a footnote a

number of cases that describe what an ordinary

high water mark means and what it basically

means is that theres water there on enoJgh

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of a regular basis that theres no

vegetation and Dr Straw in poirtig at that

photo 57pp poined out that there was an

ordinary high watermark there e believe that

we 1ave s~ovm t2lougt t~1at eviderce as well is

that theres a regularity of flow through

these water bodies tJi th respect to Ms

~iilcher f s suprise that EA did not issue a

cease and desist order we in fact did we

issued an admif~istrative order n 2000 I

doat have the record citatio~ with me bu~ I

believe it was testified to in the 2003

tearilg In addi tion tlith respec 0 YIs

Wilchers conunent that EPA knew about the

operation before it was completed and didnt

intervere ~rat is also not correct In Culy

of 1999 EPA contacted respondent and

requested a site visit A- that time the work

was not done l6 site visit was scheduled in

-- they did the scheduling In July and the

visit was schedJled in September and in

August respor~dent brought equipment to the

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site and finished it up to present EPA with a

fai t accompli Couple other points There I s

bee~ a ~w~er of debates i~ t~e b~ie= about

briefs about whether or not there are in

fact wetlands on the sice and whether or not

they extend all the way to the tributaries

First of all ~othi~g in Rapanos altered the

EEe~gy and Water Developmert Appropriations

Act of 1993 Public Law 102377 106 Statutory

at Large 1315 in which Congress directed the

Corps of Eng~leers to use t~e 1987 wetlands

delineation nanual until a replacement manual

was established the courts have

recognized deference to the Corpss 1987

manual as the agencys interpretation of its

OvT regulatiors That manual was applied in

this case That manual when applied in this

case identifies wetlands throughout the site

JUDGE SHEEHAN A~e these -- are

these wetlands these draircs are tl_ey fed by

a1Y other source than rain

MS SHAMET No Your Honor These

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wetlands are what are called the top of the

watershed and this is why water flows in two

directions off of this site -- it flows both

west and east because its at the top of the

watershed

JUDGE SHEEHAN So any water on the

site its all rain-fed

MS SHAMET Yes The seasonality

of it however I can be established through

testimony regarding how the plants on this

site interact with that precipitation And

that testimony discusses the relationship

between whats called leap out and

transpiration In other words when the leaves

are on the trees the trees are uptaking water

from the ground -- from the groundwater table

and the groundwater table decreases and

thats why you see lower levels of water in

the summer During the winter when the leaves

are off the trees the trees are not

transpiring yet -- the water table rises and

thats why these are seasonally flowing

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s~reams and seasoca~ systems

JUDGE SHEEHAN Is there any

testirtony in the record abott the frequency of

the rain If rain is it is the source is

rain something on this property that occurs

f if -y times a year I a hundred t iITes a year t

two ~ines a year

MS SHAME= YOur Honor the

2003 record I believe there was an exhibit

and I apologize that I canZt name the exhibit

number for you right now that idenifies what

a one year storm is f what a three year stOrIT

is~ and l-lha a five year storm is in that

county and I apologize that I cant come up

with the exhibit number for you right now

JUDGE SHEEHAN vlell whats your

recolecion about it irhat it says eve if we

dont know the exhibit right now 111 just

trying to get a bead on how -- whether its

typically dry or typically wet there With

rain

MS SHAI-fET Your Hono f I cant

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recall I believe its under a~ inch -- around

a~ inch bu~ ca~t say foy su~e I look at

a lot of these for a let opound dipoundfeent areas

and I don~t want to get one mixed up with the

other

JUDGE ~]OGAST vTose testimony

we6 you reerrlg to gtThen you were discusslg

seasonality

MS SHAMET That was testimony of

Mr Martin It is at Remand Transcript 1912

~~d Rema~d Transcript 354

JUDGE STEI f he Board we~e to

conclude tha the evidence in this case meets

the Kennedy est is it necessary for theI

Board to consider whether the evidence meets

the plurality test

18 8HAMET Its the posiio1 of

EPA hat satisfying either test will establish

geographic jurisdiction under the Clean Water

Act As the Board noted all courts that have

so held have held tha~ if one meets re

Kennedy Tests then t~ats satised Ir

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a~swer actually to one of your questions I

1think Judge Steir there is one case It S an

unreported case out of the District of Hawaii

that has held that the Kennedy Test is lircited

to isolated waters and hat Y0l otherwise

apply to Scalia Test and that is Sierra vs

COJ1ty of Honolulu 2008 us Distcict EX=S

64262 1 and we would just note that that case

is inconsistent with the governing circuit

lali ts tle 9h Circuit and we believe its

inconsistent with Headlesburg and Moses but

you did ask lthether there was any case that

discussed he Sca=--~a test and that is the

only one at least Im aware of To answer

your question we believe t11at satisfying the

Kennedy Iest wOll-~d be sufficient and it would

not be necessary to reach the Scalia Test i

however we do beLeve thas weve satisfied

boh in this case and that ei ther test will do

it All through

JUDGE SHEEHAN Can you poi~t us iL

the record to what may not be a gap but it

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looks like a bit of a gap at least from the

briefs There I s a lot of testimony -- a lot of

discussion in your brief about the history

the history on the site water on the site

for exa~pe a 1953 p~cto s~ows di~ch O~e had

water I a 1937 photo one two and four had

water 1920 f USGS map had five -- ditch five

had water And then so we leap from sixty f

seventy years ago to the present decade

oegirning in 1999 middotJ~el a buner of inspectio1B

occurred mainly in 99 I and there was some

hopscotching and then they e~ded in 2007 So

he~e --- at least from the bries treres a

fairly big gap between the very very historic

taps and photos I and then ~he 1999-on

inspections and That they showed What about

the intervening

HS SHlIiCET - believe tha~ we also

discussed the USGS maps in 1994 which were

the most recent maps prior to activity As

YOUY HO1ort s aware from the Boards decisio1

in Bricks its inCUInbent upon us to show what

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the wates Jere lLlte before the activity f not

after the activity

JUDGE SHEE~~ Right bue the

before here is well before Thats my

~estion I dont see much except for that 94

map

MS SHAMET 1Ind we also used

aeria photography from 1994 and 1995 to

suppla--nent rphere I S been nO evidence in the

record that anything changed between 1994 and

1995 and the acivity in question which

started in I believe December of 98 or

Jaluary cf 1999 Ane I believe responcerts

agreed on the western side of the site in

their expert reper that the configuration

has been co~sistent si~ce 1949 up until the

time of the activity If there are any further

quest iors I woud jus smnnarize again by

pointing out that the facts this case are

veoy very siltple Ttese are wetlands theyre

clearly docJmented as wetlands the

preponderance of the evidence established the~

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as wetlands The preponderance of evidence -shy

tle overwhelming preponderance of the evidence

established that Chese wetlands are

performing actual documented functions The

very significant nexlJS that Justice Kennedy

described in h~s opinion The evidence in this

case shows that these wetlands are physically

adjacent to tributaries These are ditches

they are rranmade bu~ wo~d ~ust note that

iJ Ra9a~os itself the ditches were manmade

and no justices voted about that They flow

waking dista1ce to tradi tionally r~avigable

waters and 7hey are jllrisdictional Thank

you

MS v-JILCHER May it please the

cOJgt IrJClnt to t~lank couJsel for -aising the

tabletop analogy necause I forgot to This is

at a divide It is twenty feet above sea

level It 8 a watersted divde lke he

cortinental divide such hat water is flowirg

away it is not at the bottom of anything It

is nQ a marsh it is EDt a bog it is Lot a

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swarrcp i1-is is ar~ area where there is no

abili ty for the fJetland to capture and keep

pollutants out of a Y1avigable water because it

lrsef is a the very head of the watershed

And so trying 0 -- f you Jere able to be

there and see that~ you woald understand that

its not got the same type of functions and

values as some area ad) aca1t to below I

cach1g f pYEvertng po=-l-ltion cori1g frou a

10 of upstream areas While thats not

parricularly significant

JUDGE SHEEHIlll Havent yo just

helped ma~e te argumelOt that with gravity

lorking as it 60es any discharge of a

po1hltant up high wotld have made its way dOlJID

low f to a navigable water

MS WILCHER Yes so this is not

a rrounanols area fh=-s is a very slight

slope 11 fact to the naked eye it s almostt

hard to see a slope

JUDGE SHEEHAN Why does flow

matter as significant ~exus goes

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HS VrJCHER We11 the amount of

rur~offf qJie fr-ankly r~at would occur can

matte w~th regacd to that I do want 0

address a few absolutely incorrect things that

were stated and a couple misconceptions Let

me start with the mischaracterization of the

axpert witnesses that were hired in 2007

There seems to be some attempt to imply that

hiri1g differe1t expert witnesses to deal with

wtether this is ju-iscicto1al under Rapanos

is the same as having expert witnesses to

testify whether or not this area met the

former -- the actual definition of a wetland

Theyre two different things You can have a

wetland and it ca1 still not be

jClrisd~ctional So itS our hope that the

Board doesnt misconstrue that to say that by

hiring different fgtxperts you were trying to

get a different result which was not the case

-- its simply that if youre looking at how

much flow what the funcions of values ar-e

its a very differert thing fran sorteone who

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caL go ou~ a~d do the soil samples to

determine whats hydric and whats not

Seco~d jus~ as with regard to the

credibility of the witnesses just as there

were some -- a case perhaps whee ac-I expert

witness misstated something or changed its

rnird 1 so did some of the government I s expert

wi tnesses misstate something that then had to

be co-ected So did the brief that said

that took the word and and changed it to

Or witr regard to what Justice Kennedy hadI

written So I dont think that that in and of

itself has any significarce wi th regard to the

credibility of a witness tihen we are talking

abcu lGVJ fa this land is from a navigable

water counsel has mentioned that it S 2600I I

feet middotrhich is about half a mile or 4200

feet which is close to a mile -- thats not

to reac-t a navigabe water Let us be clear

That is to reach something that is not

necessarily an intermittent area4 EPA

stipulated l the stipulations dated

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Septewer 8th 03 that the water body

depicted and ]i5 is nurrbers 37 and 38 that

the water bodies depicted as these drainage

ditches on the site are depicted by the USGS

topa rEap at the 3allary Hill (Phonetic)

quadrangle as a broken blue line and that a

broken bae line denotes an irtermi ttent

stream These are intermittent streams ard as

Justice Sheehan has correctly noted Judge

Scalia says n mary circ1JIstarces that

intermittent streams are not jurisdictional

waters of the U S HmAever if we tun to irlhat

Custice Kennedy says thats rhece we kind of

get into the eitheror what we also find

there is a great discussion by Justice Kennedy

loiClself on 1e Ccrps definition of a

tributary Counsel was referring to the

drainage ditches as t-ibutaries ard Justice

Kennedy makes it c~ear that the corps

definition of tributary that was in effect at

tr~e time this decision was -rritter middotJsing he

high watermark was not appropriate I and would

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lead in fact to too broad a definition of what

was jurisdictional i~ and of itsef under the

Clean Water Act And theres we dont have

time to read it all but Im sure youve

probably ead it more tirres t~an have

aryay iled also jtst lke to mention tha

qui te frankly the evidence that has been

introduced in this case is the type of

evidence the Cour was r~opng would not be

Csedo prove jurisdictior on such an

important issue and that is its speculative

Its not -- were not arguing that wetlands

arent irrportart J we arent arguing that

wetlands aralt valuabe anc you know in

1990 wed say regulate because we had the

legal authority to do so This again is one

of tlese cases t1at sirrply wishing that 1_e

Q C d h dfe I~upreree o~r~ naa sal some ~~g 1 ~eren~ y

does not make it so This is what the Court

said -- thats the final word on the mater

whatever we decide ~t is bu it S tre firai

word and we c~~t change that regardless ofl

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how mportant or ho wrong someone may think

that it auld be To other quick points to

mention and that is EPA knew about this work

that was going on in February of 1999 and

that is in Jeff Lapps testimony tn Volume 1

page 167 through 169 so EA did kno Most of

t~e woyk was completed by Aprii or May of that

year before EPA every CaIne out to the site

and it wasnt until 2000 chat a notice of

violation was issued

JUDGE SHEEHamp1 So why does that

matte- That is an enforcement choice EPA makes

every day of the week and its not part of

the record i~ has nothing to do with whether

or not the Kennedy or Scalia or any other test

was met It really doesnt seem to bear on the

legal issues here

11S vIILCHER Fair enough For

purpose of ~his arg~~e~tl for t~e pur~ose of

today youre probaDly right J-luge But i~

does matcer if were talking about typical

practice of EPA and while Im well aware that

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202) 234middot4433 WASHINGTON DC 20005middot3701 wwwooalrgrO$$oom

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theres no requirement to take an enforcemer-t

action in a1ything less trar this period of

statute of limitations if in fact this was as

egregious and as violative and as problematic

as counsel appears to make it seem then EPA

did have every opportlli~ity to stOy that and

in ITany many cases vlhen EP1 sees a clear

violation of the law I they simply issues a

cease and desist order and in a case like

Rapanos in the Rapacos case you have people

who are going out anc taking action and

violating the wetlands law after theyve

received many state and federal cease and

desis orders so the facts of this case are

so di==ere~t from the facts of tha~ case Here

we have someone who was trying to comply with

the law as it was written at the time in my

view he was complying with the law as it was

wri ten at tlat time actG the fact tha EPA

didnt like ~he way the law was written and

what it said and what the courts were

deciding does not give hem authority to come

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202) 234-4433 WASH1NGTON DC 20005middot3701 wwwnealrgrosscom

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in and regulate after the fact

JUDGE WOLGAST Counsel thank you

youre Olt of if you could make your

final point n just r~e next thirty secords J

I think you saie you had two I may be

mistaken

MS WILCHER Thank you Well we

are talkirg about jurisdictio1 I do think

tha tte overall =-ssJe of equity cotes i1to

play Ar~d knowing -- even krowing what the

jurisdiction was at the time of the activities

undertaken is really kind of an unc I Qar

matter Were still struggling with what

j Clrisdict iOI is Re9rettably toat s always

been t~e problem with this program

problem Igtli th this progral7l is that Corgress did

not give us clear direction and clear guidance

to either EPA or to the Boyds or to anyone

else in the regulative corrmlUnity and I t-hink

that s a factor certainly that the court Iblil

consider ard should corsder I when making a

decision on issues of liability and in this

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND tRANSCRIBERS

~323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW i202 234-4433 WASHINGTON DC roooS-3701 WWWlI$alrgmssOOffl

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case we would ask that you do so Thank you

J1DGE voLGAST Thank YOJ Cours

thank yOJ for your arguUent and the case is

now submitted

MS DURR All rise Session of the

Environmenta Appeals Board nmv stands

adjourned

(Whereupon the above-entitled

matter was concluded at 11 16 am)

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON DC 20005-3701 wwwnealrgrossoom

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Page 83

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CERTIFICATE

This lS to certify tha~ ~he foregoi~g transcript

in the matter of Snith Farm 3nterprises ILC

Hon Anna Wolgast E-wironmenta Appeals Judge

Date Jaly 20 2010

Flace Washingson DC

represens the ful and complete proceedings of the

aforementio1cd marter as reported and reduced to

typewriting

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCR8ERS

1323 rOOE iSLAND AVE_ NW (202 234-4433 WASHtGON DC 20005-3701 fNWnnalrqft)6Scom

Page 4: BEFORE THE ENVIRONMENTAL APPEALS BOARD IN ... By...MS. DURR: Environmental Appeals Board of the U~ited States Environmental Protec~ion Agency is now in session for oral argument, in

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MS ~JILCHER Than( you very much

I 7t LaC-uana vilcher ltlith English Lucas

iest and Owsley rile are also represented by

Hunter Sims of Kaufman and Canoles

representing STIli th Farm Enterprises LLC Also

at the table is ~im Boyd who is one of the

owners of Sr1ith Farts we would 111lt8 to

reserve our five minutes for rebuttal please

and I would also ask the Boardls indulgence

since I fro relatively nevl to this very long

cass should I need to confer with Mr Sims or

-ir Boyd durng the course of t1is discussio1

Thank yOJ very ~uch

Im here today because this is

actually a very very important case Its an

inportar~t case boh to ~he -- the Boyd family

bot1 in ers 0 the 8otiona2 and nancia

to11 it has taken over the last eleven years

but also because of the important policy

questions that are presented before this

board especially n the light of the

u~isdi ctional detelfinaions under Rapanos

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON DC 20005middot3701 wwwrealrgrosscom

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which is clearly the subject of our

conversation today

oward that end ve Jlot~d l=-ke to

jcst br~efly call to the Boards attention a

short history of the case going back to 1998

and 1999 when drainage ditches were

constructed on Smt~ Fanrs 1 some wooded

areas dra~ni1g that that land The - shy

beorepound tne proJec~ t-negan anabull was under t aken

Mr Boyd contacted and met with the Army Corps

of asked for ~heir opinion

concerning jurisdictional issues and otter

issues concerning a permit The corps of

Engineers certainly never indicated in any

fashion that there was a problen at that time

jurisdictior~aly consderirg tle wor~ that was

a~ticipated to occur

Of course were here today largely

because the whole jurisdictional issue has

been turned up Ol ts head by Rapanos in 20061

and can certainly say that Ve Vould be in a

very different situation were it back to 1989

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRBERS

323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON DC 20oo5-37D1 wwwMlllrgro01HXlffi

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or ~92 or 93 ween I was at tt8 Agency and

dealing with iss~es when then the only thing

that was necessary for the Agency to prove was

that there were waters of ~he United Sta~es

ncluding wetlands that is lands that vere

inundated or satura~ed by surface or ground

water s~ch that ~hey could and ordinarily did

support a prevalence for vegetation typically

adapted to life in saturated soil conditions

We always referred on the Riverside Bayview

case and extended the adjacency of the

wetlands to a navigable water beyond that

such tha any tine thac there were wetla~ds

that they were conside-ed to be

jlrisdictiol1al ard eniorcemalt actior~ woud

have been considered proper

In the Rapanos Case the court

talks abo~t the expanding jurisdiction by the

Corps of Engi~eers and cetainly by

extension to EPA when in many of those

circumstances EPA was pushing the Corps to

expa1d their jurisdiction And the court

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AO TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE Nw 2(2) 234middot4433 WASHINGTON 00 20005middot3701 WWWllealrgrC$$OO((

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po s out that tneuro Corps adopted increasingly

broad interpretations of its own regulations

Talked about the migratory bird rule It

talked about how the Corps rad exparded ~ts

own interpretations of the definition of

tributaries to include ephemeral streams ard

c~ose that ran ~hrough drainage Qitc~es And

then the plurality opinion goes on to clarify

that that type of regulation was never

intended to be covered by the Clean raer Act

as waters of the U S SOIDe of the key

JUDGE STEIN Ms Wilcher

JiS ~TIL-CrER Yes

JVDGE STEIN Has any court held

that the plurality test alone determines

jurisdiction

ItS WILCHER I do not believe

that any court has held that the plurality

test alo~e confers jurisdiction

JUDGE STEIN Okay

MS 11 I LCHER I assume that the

court wants to hear about that since it is an

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202) 23~4433 WASHINGTON DC 20005lt)701 wwwnealrgrosscom

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impotant part of the decision AQd we can

talk about significant nexus next I if thatS

okay or if you wart me to go to significant

nexus now I be happy to do that

JUDGE STE=N No thats fine you

car talk about the pluralities first but le~

me ask you if we were to find that the

eviQe~ce met as J~dge Xoran oQ~6 the

significant nexus test but for whatever

reason it didnt meet the plura~ities test l

L1en vhat is middotJ~e OJtcorneuro

MS WILCHER Now thats a very

and no one knows In the Fourth Circuit

specifically what the outcome of that -- what

the outcome would De The Rapanos test

unfortunately in an effort to reign in

jurisdicion by the Corps and EPA created

probably as many questions as it did answer

and its created a lot additional

lit~gation So we I re here synpatretic 0

EPAS plight of having to try to figure out

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISlAND AVE NW (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON DC 20005lt701 wwwnoolr9f05Sc(JITl

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what that meanS l a~d the regulated community

also rying 0 figure oat what it means

becalse it is simply not clear The Marks case

that said that you would select the nost

Earow of the interpretations n a case such

as this might be difficult to apply because

it S hard to figure out itlhat the most 1arrowI

cefinition or application of this case would

be Obviously from Smith Farms standpoint

we would be really delighted shou~d =h~s board

decide to follow the Ilarks opinion and decide

that the Scalia test would be the most

appropiae here bJt vere perfecty preparedl

to address both

JUDGE WOLGAST B~t that is -- but

yot-e assuning trat the narrowest grounds

would then be the pluralities test as opposed

to say I the narrowest ground sin-ply being

tha hey rejeced the Rapanos evicence ald

remanded the case In terms of what -- what

five justices could agree to It Jas simply

ocemand

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISlAND AVE NW Z02 24-4433 WASHINGTON DC 20005-37)1 WflW J10slrgrosscom

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MS rLCHER rgthat f S rigrLt Thats

right But i s presumed trat the CO-clrt s

reasoni1g ar~d the four -- the opinion of the

four written by Scalia the opinion of

Roberts the opinion of Justice Kennedy all

rreant sameL-hing J and hat is what we are left

to vlork within and -shy

TUDGE SHEEHAN What do you think

cf the governme~ts argument trat either test

can apply as the First and Eighth Circuits

have held

MS WI~CHER well clearly a

nillnber of circuits have held that either test

Itould apply f ard in this case we we

believe that the evidence despicB what the

ALJs have found we believe the evidence

clea~ly shows that under neither test would

this area considered to be jurisdictional

~nder the curre~t interpretatio~ of the Clean

Water Act u~der Rapanos

And I really do think chat

not wanting to lose the forest for the trees

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRA1SCAIBER3

1323 RHODE jSlAND AVE NW (202) 2344433 WASHINGTON DC 20005-370~

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here the forest -- the big picture is thatI

Rapanos is a dramatic shift in the way

busir~ess as usual has been done aL these

agencies from 1972 ~ntil 2006 It is -shy

in 2001 you had a little deviation here but

its a ilge dfference and what we find in

the brief -- and what we find in the brief of

t1e govermnent in this case is lot much of a

differerce from how the law previously lttas

interpreted and Ill -- Ill just go ahead

aYld address thae ssae and that is that the

the strongest argument it appears that

he government nakes in its brief dealing

with the significant nexus test is that

wetlands are ~rrponart ~1etlards provide

valuable functions and even Rapanos case

notes that the Clean V~ater Ac has been very

important and serves an important public

interests and Section 404 and the wetla~ds

laws i-l particuar provide ar~ irportant public

interest

JUDGE SHE1 Vie11 i 81 c the

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPOATEFlB AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE fW (2ltJ2) 2344433 WASHINGTON DC 2ltlOOSr01 wwwnoalrgrosscorn

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governments argument that these wetlands I in

particua are important I and can you address

how these wetlands do or do not meet the

Kennedy significant nexus test

fiS WILCHER That woud be t1e

goverlli~ents argument but in this case they

have failed cO co inCroduce by a

preponderance of the evidence ~hat that is

the case

JUJGE WOLGAST Coud you describe

for us what you ~elieve the goverr~ent would

have to show at a minimum to meet Justine

Kernedys significant nexus test in this

context

MS ~iILCHER At a mini~um they

wotd have to show some measure of the effec

that would be had by this wetlands property

upor~ a navigable vater of the Uni ed States

and they have not done so ln ary regard

JUDGE SHEEHIN Wasnt there

abunda1t testimony says the gDve=runent by

expert i1itness Martin and others that there

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was such a C oILleci en YOJ f re speakirg very

theoretically Id like if you could to get

specific about what you think the failu~es are

i~ the governments case on the Kennedy test

MS ~VIrJCHER Yes but if you -shy

+_--ne if you look at the gover1TIleuroEt s

argument one of their lengthy arguments is

about the impact 0 denitrification that

VJetlands provide an important deni trification

iss~eJ pointing out that the Chesapeake Bay

tas too rruch nityogen and tbat its important

to keep that out They talk about the fact

that n~toger coues from atrrosphe-ic

deposition They talk about the fact that

microbes in the soil vi22 break hat rtroger

down and then they talk about that once the

nitrogen is broken dmvr it ll be taken up by

the breeze and i If~ay even be given off again

into -- into the air

JDGE STEIN ltJasn f t there

plentiful testimony by government witnesses

and the companys witnesses as to what was

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occurr~ng specifically at this site I mean

I think the challenge for the compa~y i~ this

appeal 8 that there were credibili ty findings

Chat tiere made by the ALJ as to some of the

testimony by respondents by the companys

wi tnesses and given the Board f 5 standard forJ

crecibility determinations where the 30ard

you knovl historically ove many mar~y years

gives great weight to an ALJ~s finding how is

it ha t we can ove look he ALJ S credibi lity

determinations in the face of countervai~ing

evidence ~hat the ALJ found ~o be credible

(S WILCHER Judge Stel if I

can finish Judge Sheehans question I III ge

right back 0 you on that You were wanting

some specifics and an example of what the

government tried to prove in its case By

go~ng through this whole denitrification

process they nake ~o distinction betwee~ the

value that ris particalar wetlald is making

or any paricular wetland is making I to the

denitrification 0 the Chesapeake Bay

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JUDGE SHEEHAN But the Kennedy

tea says that if wetlands aloLe or in

combination with other wetlands have that

kind of effect

115 WILCHER Wetlands alone or in

corrbinato1 with otrer wetlands or in

combination lith the uplands the arguments

~ha t tbey ace laking wOClld apply equally to

uplands and as the court noted in the Rapanos

decision applying some of these tests as the

government histori cally has applied them to

say that they are jurisdictional sirrply

because hey have value and may be somewhat

miles aay hut may have some connection or

some val~e ~i~es away being speculative in

nature does rot cause it to be

jurisdictional and it sa~d i~ so the en~ire

United States would be considered regulated

llilder tbe Clear~ ater Act

JUDGE SHEEHAN Theres ~~ theres

one and cot to get in the vay of Judge

Steins question but Qne of the exhibitsr

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Remand Exhibit 937 shows a very honeycombed

tissue through the Srith Farm weta1ds going

ou~ to the two rivers and then to the bay I~

looks sure _ surely to me it looks from this

exhibit and otes as if tl1e wetlands are very

proximate to and affect directly the waters

below Car you address that

KS WILCE2R I wil Those naps

do not show any actual measurable connection

nor do they show a contir1oJS surface

conE6ction r~avigable vrates

JUDGE SHEEHAN Why does it have to

be a surface connection tilly car_ t it be stbshy

surface if theres a hydrological link

MS WILCHER But theres ~o

showir~g of a silD-surface hydroogica liak

either Theres a total lack of evidence of

probative dence i~ th~s case to actualy

tie that paricu=-ar vletland Co a rcavigable

water which by the way you would have to gor

fcom tha wetland to a drair~age ditcr~ anc

went out there and traipsed down the site

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before I came here to talk to you about this

but youd have to go fr~~ that -- b~t this ~s

all en the record -- YOlld have to go fron

that area that might be-- that part of it that

might be considered a we~land~ through

drainage di tches t1at are only inerrrit ert

in nature and t1e evidef~ce is clear that

theYre only intermittent in nature including

the USGS blue line dotted lines and then they

would have to go from tlere to Bailey Creek

non- navigable to Drurr Point Creek

non-navigable] then to tributaries of the

westeGl branch of the Elizabeth River I which

is t~e f rst tne you I d hi a ~avigable wate

If go in the opposite

direction they would have to go from drainage

ditches to Quake~ Neck Creek to ~eans Bra~ch

which are tributaries 0 tne ravigable water

the Nansemond River 14d so there there is

no proof that there is a connection

Things could lave been done Tne-e

cOmiddotJld have been dye raclgs there cOlld have

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been a~l kinds of evidence hey could have

taken samples they could have done

quantitative analysis There is no chemical

evidence there is no physical evidence there

is no biological evidence that connecs this

to a navigable water f and therein lies the

problem

JJDGE TO~GAST Justa if I

could follow up on that before we get back to

cred~bility iss~es

MS HLCHER Okay

JUDGE WOLGAST Are you saying that

the fact they floTlI throJgh ditches is a

jurisdictional problem

MS 1tILCHER Not particularly

JUXE vIOLGASI And the1 get ~ ing

back to the testimony that Judge Sheehan was

referring to where JIdge Morar was referring

to the testimony of Mr Rhodes and Mr Martin

that the property provides flood storage flow

moderaion carbOIl sequestration vlater

purification denitrification what I want to

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undsystard aboJt your argument 1s are these

aspects insufficient or would they be

sufficient if in your mind there was more

evidence of the connection of these attributes

to the Nansemond or Elizabeth Rivers

MS iILCHER EPA -- the govenment

cant simply say that wetlands are valuable

because they are-- help prevent flooding and

not show that they would help prevent flooding

in this particular case and that it would

significantly help prevent flooding in t~is

partcular case lrJha ttey have done toe

Drie is to siIply lay down he well-knoJl

attributes a~d valuable functions and values

of wetlands and said therefore this is

having a significant effect on navigable

~ivers Theye is not a co~~ection they have

lot snoltm by a1y credible evidence cause and

effect of any sigrifcant iIEpact tpon thef

navigable rivers

JUDGE SHEEHAN But you make

again a very theoretical argument about the

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fact Chat the goverruuent just argues wetlands

fgelerally but werer t government wi tnesses

crawling allover this property mul iple

times testify~ng at great lengtl lots of

exhibits aerials historc maps and

everythi~g else to show in this case fo~ this

property there was trat link Its hard to

believe with all that 11Bssive Estimony and

getting to ~he credibility issue that he

governrrent doesn~t have a pretty solid case

rat hat nexus sat) sfyilg the Kennedy test

exists

MS WILCHER It is hard to

believe I totally agree It is hard to

believe Tle governmert has had unfettered

aCCess to this property for over a decade and

have failed 0 develop flmr drainage elements

they cant show how illuch flows off the site

they cant show vhat type of sediment runoff

might have occurred at ~he site ~hey ca~tt

show what type of water retention is teld Jy

the site t~ey have been unable to show any

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ecoogical cC1nection 1tith regard to wildlife

there was a Woodcock seen on the site There

is absolutely -- and its amazing to me hat

tr~ere is a void

JUDGE STEIN But isnt the test a

nexus a significant nexus not this

sJbstantial inpacts est that I hear wove]

through some of your statements and T dont

-- when I go back and I look at the Kennedy

opinion you knot] and some of he hings t1at

are cited I dont necessarily see that that

test requires the level of proof that youre

stggesing is reqJired ny hat test So

perhaps you could explain to me based on the

Kennedy opinion how you get from there to the

level of proof Lhat you re a5~ing for f just to

establish jurisdiction

MS WILCHER Certainly

JUDGE STEIN I mean I we re not

here to determire you know penalty or

anything else were here just to figure out

if youre even i~ tbe door

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MS IILCHER Yes understand

Ie 1 1 what Justice Kennedy said was to talk

abmlt he fJay the Corps nac typically

regulated wetlalds and then to say absent

more speciic regulations however the Corps

must establish a significant nexus on a case

by case bBSS wler it seeks to regulate

wetlands based on adjacency to non-navigable

tributaries and then it goes on to say given

the potential over breath of the Corps yen s

regulations this showing is necessary to

avoid unreasoDable applications of the

statute

The justice wrote I no~ just a

~exus if the COurt had only said there has to

be a nexus then o~e would have a different

burden of proof in this case the court said

a significant nexus and we have to assnne

that a significant nexus is meaningful that

those words mean SOIEethi1g So theres a -- at

least a two-step process One to show that

theres a nexus and the other is to show that

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its significant and that is what the record

is devoid 0 in this particular case

JUDGE SlEIN But its not a

significa1t impact its a significant nexus

MS iILCHER Thats right a

significant nexus And the sigrificart rexus

must -- and if YOu read through the rest of

the case it talks abolt hm -- that in order

to regulate land as water there must be some

type of impact on the water

JUDGE SHEEHAN Justice Kennedy

also uses a phrase that think is pertinent

here r he says that the how -- how the proof is

determined has to be done in a practical way

ard i almost sounds as if what you I re

requiing is that the governrrent set up flow

meers or pour a vial of discharge into a

ditch and see if it eventually ends up in the

Chesapeake or do something on a very

impractical scale to prove ~he connectio~

MS WILCHER You know this is a

really important issue The governrrent has to

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do sOIething oJer than to make allegations r

especially in a case where youpoundre dealing with

constitutional issues such as privae property

rights and how one car jse his own property

or hers and in this case I there are lots of

things tha~ EPA historically has done for

ypcal NPDES cases But when you before he

Board on a NPDES case theres at least some

measure If they had had pictures that there

las a plurne comir_g off of this wetlar~d if

theyd done any flow calculations if theyd

had any physical chemical biological

evidence of a nexJS and a signiican- nexus to

the navigable waters which again( are not the

ditches they are the ditches that flow to the

creek that flow 0 the creek that flow 0 the

navigable waters j then it would be a different

case but that is not what has happened in

this case

JUDGE IJOLGAST Well as you say

the goverIl1lent obviously has the burden of

proof i~ a~ eLfo~cerne~t case l but is this the

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same type of evidence that you thirk a

_a~Qowne~ should Lndertake I mean obviouslY

they have the burden to obtain a permit where

there is potential jurisdiction

I~S ~JILCaER Btt if the person

doesnt obtain a permit ~~ and the government

thinks that theyre i~ error again the

government always has the burden of proof

JUDGE vJOLGAST Right but J 1m

talking about getting a -- yOJ know starding

in the landowners shoes before weve ever

gotten to an enforceme1t case it -- it I

mean I ~h~nk theres some iSS48 with getting

back to the Supreme Court case that one of

he things that were concerned about - at

least lJustice Scalia pointed to was how much

evidence time money it takes to vJOrk

thro~gh ~h~s process and it sou~ds like the

yeLl know r the advocacy here is that there

should be more not less

)15 ~JLC1ER There stou1d be

something dore by the government in thi s

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regayd to actually prove a nexus and a

sgnificant nexus ard in this ease I canr

assuye you Judge Wolgast that the l~downer

has go~e above and beyond the oall of duty

going to the Corps time after ti~e having the

Corps ou to tr~e site and having spent talk

about the time and money and investmert having

his case as understand it having spent

over $800 000 in litiga~ion costs to try to

pr-otect what was legal at tl~e time that it was

aone and so -- so there is a burden

The governme1t has the burden aid

in this case in this par~icular case they

failed to meel it I don I t know why I haven [t

been involved that lor~g ~ would speculate

tl1at by the time he Rapanos case cane along

it V~as jlSt too hard to go back and find the

type of probative evidence that would carry

the cay_

I do not necessaily thirk that

its an impossible tas~ There have been ot~er

cases that ve reviewed aihere the goverrUent

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has irtroduced evidence of the poundows tr~e

amount of drainage that has occurred how much

water might be taken up by a wetland area$ but

none of that was done in thi s particular case

and again we can only speculated why that

was the case

JDDGE STIN How does tr_s S~xth

Circuit decision in the Cundl f f matter bear on

your view that the -- you need some sort of

laboratocy araysis to prove h~s7

MS ~VILCHER in that

particular easel you dont have as I ~ecall

the -- the disarce roIT a navigable waer

tha t we have here [ and I think the farther you

are away from a navigable water the harder it

is 0 prove tha~ theres any impact on that

navigable water and in this -- again in this

case they are far away from a navigable

water and I think toe reaSC1 tha~ we don

see the p=oof is because its not there itS

not developable and that is why it is not

Cere Did yOl wart De to ~~

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JUDGE STEIN I do wact you to get

the credibility question

MS bull WILCHER I dian t t want to

forget your - shy

JUDGE STEIN No while we we~e on

this topic why cor t t yOJ addres s the

credibility question

MS vILCHER I think its an

important question IC t S a real important

question and that is simply that s even though

the regtllatior~s do provide that typicaily when

the ALJ hears the witnesses and makes

determinations 0 ~~eir credib~~ity that

typically this Board will defer to that

However in this case a carefctl review of the

record shows that the ALJs just got it wrong

and it is within this Boards prerogative to

look at the -- look at t1e factors tha

that the ALJs used in making their

deterninatior and make a judgreJt aboJt

wl1ether those factors are sufficient

A couple of examples There was a

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mar who had Iived OT the farm for h~rty years

who testified that he I d walked over the farm

for thir~y years and testified that in fact

Ithe streams J or the drainage di tches were

intermittent in nature and did not carry water

I - 1 h d - a11 th e trre bull e __ t e JU ge ~n tHe QeClS10n

said well I think hes a nice man I think

hes beholden to the Smi ths f and he was just

Ollt or a wa so totally just discounted his

testimony saying he WBS just out on a walkJ

as if that meant t~at somebodywQuldnt no~ice

DGE ~vOGAST ~ Are yot saying

though that it would have to carry water all

tre time

MS vHLCHER No no But but

it f s clearly -- is Eot a navigable water lor

it is adjacent nor is the wetland adjacent to

a navigable water in this case It flows

anything t~at =lows opound= of t~at a~ea that has

been considered to be wetland by the

goverr-Uent flows -rxough drainage ditches

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that are only intermittent in nature and

~herefore are ~ot co~sidered to be navigable

watsYs clea~ly urder the Rapanos decison

JUDGE SHEEHAN But if the man

walking the land said that they were

intermittent and youre saying intermittent

doesnt matter

I~S IgtlILCHER Were saying that -shy

Judge Cha~eski as I recall said tha~ there

was a c01tinuOU5 flow of 5088 kind isnt that

-- d~~lt J~dge Char~eski say that

WOLGAST lrJell Justice

Scalia said that even after that -shy

HS WILCHER Right right

JUDGE WOLGASl That that

seasonal flow could establish jurisdiction

~nder the pluralitoes test

148 t-JILCEER BJt there s not beenj

seascnal flow established -=-n this case Yot

have somebody going out there en particular

days after these ditches have been dug which

we all know alter the flow in drainage after

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the eLi tches are dug ftJaer goes to the lowest

level and so theres going to be more water

draining OU= of there t~a~ ~here would have

been in 1998 and 1999 and that -- that is

clear ~tat ~tere is no ev~de~ce ac the time

this was done they were -- they were anything

but inerYlitten and here l s no j1risdictiola1

connection that they have proven to date

JUDGE ~JOLGAST And what do you

think they would have had to have shown to

show seasonal flow

MS ~IILCHER Well they could

have done something more than go out there

nine times over tbe course of a year rrhey

could have had aerial photographs taken Ihey

cod have -- weil first yOl have the uSGS -shy

you have the USGS maps as showing its

inteYrnittent and theres lierally no

testimony en the record right now to show that

theyre anything but interrrdtent Ot-her than

to say that if somebody goes out there ~ine

Cimes and looks at the flow and sees water

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then -- agair~1 keeping ir mind this was years

atel 1_8 dainage d=- tches tver-e dtg ha t were

channeling more water into the old one through

seven drainage areas there B nothing tof

establish what was the~e at ~he time in 1998

a~d 1999

JUDGE VlOLG~rST And I think

isnt this what courts are struggling with in

the sense that its -- its one thing to say

~ts ~~ter~itte~tf b~t is that good enough I

mean I dont you have to figure out just how

much flow in you know what period of time

or the idea that -- I dont -- if someoae

says t~at its intermitte~t Irr not sure that

means its ir~ or out without further evidence

MS WILCHER Right Well that

shows really the that shows arguably a

cQnYlecion Bu how rrlcr =ow is going through

there whether sediment loading is going

through there whether theres an ecological

connection through there all these whethers

lead to whether t~e~e is a sig~ificant nex~s

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to a navigable water and if you look at some

of the other cases ~here has been that kiLd of

information introduced and in this case there

is none

JUDGE vJOLG1ST hhat case are you

thinking of

MS vJILCiER I thirki1g maybe

t was the Precon case ir - - in the Eastern

District of Virginia Its on appeal in the

Fourth Circuit I may r~ve been ~hat BJt

I 11 be happy to provide some cases -- a case

or cases later on that show the type of

evidence that tas been introdJced because I

remember reading about them and cant think of

the name right now

TlDGE SHEEIiAN I Vant to go back

for a moment to Judge Stein J s question about

credibility

gtIS CLCHER YOS

JUDGE SHEEHAN So ALJ Moran sat

through days and days of testimony on the

bench a lot of pecple ~n ~~at witness chair

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Hes there hes on he scere hes

~nterpreting the way the witnesses speak and

their basic credibility which you can only do

face to face in that way Wha~ is it about

what happened there that causes you to think

theres sOne way or some reason for as not to

credit the typ~cal deferehce we would extend

There must be some exception here that we ~eed

0 know about for that to happen

MS WLCHER tAJel1 r ard there are

a few facts that I think would be relevant to

your consideration in that case In the first

instance some of these wi~nesses that the ALJ

deter~ined were not credible --Jere stipJlated

as being expert vtitnesses and hat shows at

least sorre level of credibility in the mind of

the government w th regaro to whetJ~er they

were experts in the field

Second some of the criticisms

in one case a criticism that an ALJ made of an

expert wi tness was that he had not beer~ 0 the

site often enocgh yet vith one of the

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gover~ors -~ goverG~entls expert witnesses

that person had been to the site less times

t1an t1e Srith Farms expert witress A1C SO

there is a confounding sense that in this

particular case for whatever reason if the

experts agreed ~ th r~e goverr_rne1t f they were

credible and that if they di~~t they were

not

It just seems highly unlikely that

every single witness iltroduced by Smith

Far~s and Ive had the pleasure of working

wi th Mr Boyd and it lS just I think

statistically urEkely that one could End

that many unmiddotmiddotmiddotcredible witnesses and in thisf

case I do not believe that they were not

credib2e I believe they were as credible ald

as I mentioned in some cases were stipulated

in beirg expert w~t~esses ~~

JUDGE SHEEHAN So you didnt

believe they were

HS WICHER I did not bel ieve

they were not credible so I believed that

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they were credible And -- and it is sOIEewhat

confoundirg other than to say that the

closest thing that I could figure out was that

if hey supported t~e governments viev tey

were credible and if they did not support the

governments Vlew I they were not

CJDGE trrOGAST But dien f t Judge

Moran find that -- and to generalize ---- that

the witnesses failed to establish that to the

exent t1ere were weta1ds they -lere isolated

by on-hydric soil lasnt that a central part

of his credibility determination

MS ~vILCHER Well trat S O1e of

the findings that Judge Moran made but in

this paricular case keep in mind its not

Smi Parms tha-c has 0 show that there is a

break or a barrier -- its the government who

has to show that the~e is a con~ection

JUDGE liOLGAST Of

understand Right

HS IIILCHER So theres cerainly

pockets of non-hyd~ic soil in tte area and

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for SOle reaSCl EPA _ ar~d again this is just

ki~d of amazing to me

spent this long on that EPA did not go out

there and do a typical delneaion of the

site and this is something that is cypically

done Its amazing that EPA did not issue a

cease and desist order as soon as t~ey ~~ew

abouc it There are many things that to me

are amazing about this case that quite

frarky I are he easor that I came nere to

argue it Because lIm a strong believer in

protecting the Clean Water Act and in

protec~ing lteta-ds and you mayor may lOot

know from my history I I bear a lot of scars

from having trIown myself in the body of

wetlands protection bac~ in the days ana I

still believe its an important thing to do

But I also believe its important to follow

~~e rule of law and ~n chis case Mr Boyd

made every effort to follow the rule of law

and I bel ieve he did and when it did not work

out tte way that EPA wanted the law to be

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this enforcement action came forward at a

time -- and had they intervened early on i~

t~is case they cou~d have stopped They knew

months before the work was cOITpleted -- hey

knew months before the work was completed that

there was ditching and draining going on

t~ere and trey did no move in quickly to try

to resolve that case ar~d they could have -shy

they could have stopped most of the so called

harm that they are now alleging but chose not

to do so ~~ey dd ~ot do a deineaLion they

did not inroduce proof that this particular

part of property has a significant nexus to

jurisdictional waters of the United States to

a navigable water of the United States I and

thats the reason I~ he~e

JJDGE VJOLGASI I see your time is

expired if theres no other questions

MS WILCHER Thank you

MS S~J~ET~ Good morning You=

Honors My name is Stefania Shaliat and I

represent Region III in this matter

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specifically the complainants who are the

division directors for the Environmental

Assessment a1d Irr~ovation Divisio1 and he

vater Protection Division I at EPA Regio11 III

With me at counsel table Id like to

i~troduce DO1la Carner-Tal f who is regulatory

co-msel for the Nc-folk District Army Corps of

Engineers and Karen ~lendelowskl gt who is with

the office of general cour~sel and also we

have a disirglshed g1e8 1$ d lke to

introd~ce -- si~~ing behind me is Dr Dennis

Whigham with the Smithsonian Environmental

Resea=cr Cente- Your Honors responders have

do~e ~~ if I ca~ get in a couple points -- a

good job of obfuscating what are really very I

very simple facts here The simple facts are

hat these are tllelands perfouuiq docurrenced

functions that are delivered to tributaries

These wetlands are adj acent physically

trose trib-ltaries f ard those

tr lbtacies flow to traditiorally navigable

waters to the West 2600 feet away to the

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East 4200 feet away In other words the are

wetlands adjacent to tributaries that low

waki1g clstance to tr-adi ional1y navigable

waters These Vetlfu1ds were jurisdictional

under SWANCC as respondent conceded in Clean

~later Act Appeal mmber 05-05 when respondent

reseved argll1snt on jtrisdicto1 but chose

not to raise it un~il there was a change in

case law They continue to be jurisdictional

under any standard enunciated by he Supreme

Court in Rap~~os The qJan~u~ of proof offeree

by the complaina1ts i1 this matter not only

exceeds preponderance of the evidence it

exceeds any quantum of proof required by

Rapanos In fact t far exceeds it Another

thirg that is obscured in the ar9J11ent here by

the respondents is that up until 2007

respondents had a different set of expert

witnesses It las tlose expert witresses that

coroplainalts stipulated 1heir expertise was

in wetlands identification and the connection

of wetlands to waters of the uniced States

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Ihose witnesses largely agee with

complainac1t I s version of the facts on the

ground ae-d i wasnt until 2007 when

respondents hired a new set of expert

witnesses that any real dispute arose about

what exactly was going on in the site There

was dispute about ithat hat nean f but not

exacly what the physical characteristics of

t21e si te ere

J1DGE WOLGAST Counsel coud you

address Ms wilchers points that while there

may be flow moderation carbon sequestration

there may be some evidence that the government

hasnt shmlTI a nexus between those

characterist~cs and the ~avigable waters

vIS SHAME Sure First of alI

the evi6erce of Je fuYlctions beirg performed

on this S1 te is not speculative There are

photo after photo and testimony after

testimony the governments evidence is based

or established scientific literature that

identifies something called field indicators

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-- physical characteristcs on the ground -shy

that when identified correlate to a specific

functi~n being formed by the wetland In this

case there are three Tr~e first was fow

noderaiou and one of the physical

characteristics thez-e would be such things as

ponding you see a lot of later being

captured in low levels depressional levels

withir the wetland Tle record conta1s dozens

of photos of that The secord is

denitrification and that is the microbes

llptaking nitrogen in the soil That indicator

is something called modelirg i1 he soil It sI

a red spotch Essentially it IEeans that iron

is there That evidence comes not only from

the complainants but if one were to reviel

the soi 18 expert froIT respordent Dr Parkers

O~ I-fr arlter f s firs expe~t repo-t ir

20C3 he describes modeling in his sails The

third is primary production That is the1

contribution of a food source Taking

transforming organics that a2e in the _- in

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nature into a food source in water that then

tralsports that food source dowYlsream to

higher trophic organisms The best evidence of

that actually comes from one of respondents

experts Dr Cahoot 1110 photographed it

leaving the site I cant find the photo at

the marneYlt f blt I 11 describe what he says

Foaing a he confluence of the ditch

leaving the property with ditches along the

property boundary near the railroad This foam

vias also sampled and examined microscopically

--- it contained primary plant debris some

peller ald rllnero-lS sma oil droplets These

oil droplets in my opinion were probably

plant oils derived froI decomposition of the

organic matter in this area That description

correlates perfectly with the description in

the testimony in tZ1e remand hearng about what

primary production s the transport of

particulate and dissolved organics downstream

as a food sOJce So the -Jse 0 the -- t~1e

functions this case are not speculative

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theyre clearly being per-formed theyre

clearly being cocC1ented as beir~g perforrred on

this wetland Theres also evidence of the

hydrologic connection between this wetland

the ibuaries and the downst-eam

trad~tionally r~avigable waers Again that

comes both frOIE complainant ~ s experts as well

as some of respondents experts one of

respondent I s experts described tr_at hydrologic

co~nectio3 as such He descrbed the wetland

as a table tcp on which somebody pours water

the water comes off of that table top into

the ditches and then tansports down to the

taditional1y navigable waers The sane

expert lgtIr Wolf also agreed that the

wetlands on the site were in fact

hydrologically conYlected to the di tches wr~ich

forrr tributaries and lJlere n fact adjacs1t to

them So we also have fUTIction ard we have

transport Now with respect to Ms Wilchers

corrment -shy

JUJGE WOLGAS~ is YoDr

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posi tion on the type of evidence that you

need to show nexus of

characteristics you see on site to the

navigable waters

gt1S SHAtvET My positio1 is tha we

met it exactly and I would refer you to

Justice Kennedys opinion Justice Kenledy

ide~tified the type of functions that he would

consider to form a significant nexus

traditional navigable waters and those are

p~ecisely the functions that were identified

on this site Specifically Justice Ker-nedy

refers to slowirg COt-C of surface runoff r

filtration and purification -- that would be

in on 547 US 773 to 75 He sta~es with respect

to weta1ds f the rationale for the Cleal ~fater

Act regulation is as the Corps as recognized

that vetlands can perforrl cri tica2 functioES

re2-ated to the integrity of other waters

functions such as pollutant trapping -- in

other words l denirifcatior~ -- flood control

flow moderation and ruriOff storage

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Ther-efore the types of functions that we

docrraented as beng performed or this site are

precisely the ypes of unctiors tha Jusice

Ken1edy ide1tified J in his opinion as the

type of functions that form a significant

nexus

JUDGE SHEEHAN In in your

brief on page 46 you say that the Kennedy

Test requiEs weta1ds cont-ibutions to the

physical c1emical or biologic in-egrity of

doOrIlstream waters -- is it nor or Hand Your

brief says or

MS SHAMET The brief says II or -shy

JUDGE SHEEHAN Because if it can

De just one of those -shy

SHA4ET I believe Justice

Kennedy did use and however it is c2ear

that he does not require a function to

contribute to all ~hree factors and chats

clear from the function he identifies

JUDGE SHEEHAN Then why did he say

and

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MS SHAMET I think he said and II

but he had a comraa and a1d he was -eferring

to a list of examples rather than a standard

i1ith respect to Ms Wilchers cormnent that we

dont have any photographs of pltLnes as I

indicatedf one were to trt 0 R Ex 28 f

which llnfortunatey I can f find right now I

ltlhich is Respondent 1 s Exhibit 28 from the

first hearing in 2003 Dr Cahoon provides a

picture of that plume himself I would also

point out that with respect to

denitriication one wouldnt expect to see a

pInrr -- thats the exact point its to hold

Che nitrogen on the wetland -lot send it

downstream

JUDGE STEIN How is the Rapanos

significant nexus test d_fferent if at all

=rom the nexus i~ Rivervew Rverside

Bayview

MS SHAMEl Riverside Bayvie

assumed a nexus based upon adjacencYi in this

case lJustice Kennedy has asked that we

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actually go forward and establish that the

nexus exists rather than simply assuming itI

based On adjacency

JUDGE SHEEHamp~ on page 41 of your

brief you quote some of the tesciroo1Y of the

first ALJ hearing I which sounds a lit~le more

entative to me tha1 youre souidir_g today

about the substa1tial nexus test being met

The brief~ at page 41 reads that these

wetlands are more likely to perform

denitrification more likely to allow for

suspended settlements -- sediments to settle

out~ more likely to support a different suite

of wildlife species that to me is

lar-guage ~rats ~ot qui~e as powerful as

saying there is a substantial nexus met here

that just sounds -- can yo~ address what seems

to be more diffident language in your brief

than what youre articulating today

MS SHAMET Well as Your Honor

pointed out T the language that you pointed to

in the brief is from the 2003 hearing before

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tr~e Rapanos case As the Board is avlare J he

EPP~ agreed and argued that the evidence to

satisfy Rapanos had not been fl11y developed

as of 2003 and this precisely why we

requested a remand

JUDGE SHEEHAN But youre cit i ng

it here filed long after Rapanos as if its

still your position

MS SHAME~ I cited a lot of other

evidence as lJell Your Honor incLuding the

testimory of Mr Rhodes he testi~cny of Dr

~fhigham and the testimony the f1Tther

estimony of Hr Mart So while that is a

piece of evidence it is certainly not the

only evidence cited in our brief

JUDGE WOLGAS~ ~o go back to the

point you were making earlier about how the -shy

in essence the three-part test is the same

type of evidence yo~ would look to to

establish sign~ficant nexus ard Justice

Kernedy did seer to speak to hat saying much

the sarre evidence I referring to tre Corps ssect

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delineation manual type evidence should

P8nnit the establishment of a significant

nexus witr navigable wates

particularly if supplemented by further

ev~dence abou~ the significance of the

tributaries to which the wetlands are

cO11ected How does the gove-nment interpret

the latter part of that quote

MS SILllltlECmiddot I think that the

government needs to show and has shown in

this case that there is an ability of those

trihttayies Co conect the wetlands to a

traditionally navigable water in such a way

that the poundtnctions are delivered In this case

we have certainly shown the hydrologic

cO1nect=-o1 some of respondents expe-ts have

agreed with us that that connection exists and

tha there is sufic8Ylt ~hat there is

water exchange there and weve also shown

that heres proxirrity here again these are

walking distance to traditionally navigable

waters this is not the Rapanos case where it

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traveled 32 miles So we think we have met

that burden here by sho~Jing the hydrologic

connection and showing that these tributaries

are capable of delivering the function With

respect to cr-edibi=-ity and he points that

Your HOlors asked of AS Wilcher I would just

point out tha~ lTudge lvlorans credibility

determination was based on demeanor and also

on the facts of this case An important fact

to note for insta11ce is in the firstF

r~earing in 2003 respondent I s soils exper

who laid a g=id fOJnc 53 ou 55 sarnples

hydric The only two that were non-hydric had

JUDGE STEIN I couldnt hear you

MS SHApoundT Had 53 Oelt of 55 soil

sa~ples he identified as hydric in the site

soEs or ei ther side In the secord heaocilg

Dr Pierce testified that there was

essentially non-hydric soils everywhere And

on cross-examination he was asked didn t youI

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find any hydric soils and he said oc yeah

I found them I just didnt click on my GS

locator and ider~tify where they were and I

just didn It report them He only reported the

non-hydric soEs That is the kind of thing

that happened that caused Jtdge l-loran 0 find

a lack of c-edibility vvlth respect to 9r

Straw Dr Straws expert report disc1ssed

undulations in the landscape that he

interpreted to mean ere were no wetlands

tlere On the sand he conceded trat there

were no u1dulaions on tr~e landscape -- he had

mis~nterpreted the aeria= photo More

importantly he conceded ~hat he knew about

ha t erroy before the hearing and leverf

corrected it until cross-exa~ination Judge

Moran had ample basis for finding no

credibility on those witnesses

JUDGE SEIN Is it your view tha~

the Board has no authority to overrale an

ALJs credibility determination

MS SHAl-1ET No YOJr Honor the

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Board reviews he case de novo lffuile the

Board certainly defer to the ALJ r s credibili ty

determination what I run saying that in this

case t~ere is no basis for overturn~~g it

JUDGE STEIl If we were to

overturn it -- a credibility determination

what kinds of factors r it your view s1ould 18

be taking into aCCo4nt

MS S~~~ET I would think you

oelld be looking to see whether or not the ALJ

has a rational basis oh gosh I hate to use

legal standards like that -- but some sort of

bass or hich he based his credibiliy

deerrtination that he explained why there was

a lack of credibility and I think in this

case he did so amply

JUDGE SHEEHAJ If Ms v~i 1 cher S

correct characterizing the way testimony

cedibclity went i soanced almost like a

hundred percent credit to government

witnesses and practically zero to

respondens witnesses f tratg acctrate

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jus stipulat-=-ng 0 trat assumption - - if

t~atfs accu~ate would that be a basis fer not

allcwing deerence to Jdge Morans

credibility determinations if its so

lopsided

ocs SH_~ET In this case I would

say no just simply because in this case we

have a classic battle of the experts I but

oddly enough the ba~~ling experts are al on

respondents side And )hat we have are

experts whD ~estif~ed in 2007 who flat

disagreed wit the testimony of respordent S

experts in 2003 without any atterrpt by the

2007 experts or respondents to reconcie

that testiITony Given that circumstance it sf

not surp-isirg that the experts in 2007 s

testimony were given very litte weight One

of the things that Hs ltJilcher referred 0 was

unfettered access to the site If anyone had

u~fettered access to the site~ it was

respondent and yet there are no photos in the

record showing the streaL~S leaving the site

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dry except during a drought

JUDGE VOLGAST But her point was

tha t the goverrunert ~as the bmiddoturden here

MS SHlHEI And the burden -- he

government has met the burden In fact in

this case the preponderance 0 the evidence

literally the only evidence other than

testirrony by the site owner testimony by

someone who walks around a three-hu1dred-acre

site hunting and looki1g for damage in che

fieds which lS what he estified he was

doing there and photographs taken during a

d--ought he oV9rtlhe=Iilg evidence is that the

waters do flow on a regular basis First of

all these waers have been napped the

waters leaving the site -- as flovving water by

USGS for hal f a century

JUDGE vIOLGAST Yo mentioned that

the waters flow on a regular basis Is that a

conir~uols bas~s

MS SHAMET We would say it would

be part of every year Your Honor

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JUDGE SHEEHAJ Tlen W1Y 18 that

necessarily continual The Scalia Test now

that veve 901e to continual flow is jilst

that -- there has to be continual flow He

says even the least significant of the lake

river ocealS or streams the four water

bodies the least significant steams has to

have COlticua you

repeatedly say - make other instances that

are to me a lot less cor~fdent t1~an what

Scalia seems to deilland You say page 31 the

drains flow at least part of every yeari page

35 at least SOme portion of every year at

least at least at least it comes up

repeated-ly in YOlr brief vlhich couid be just

one rain event So theres one rain at least

it flows one or two days after the rain aod

thats certainly a far cry I would argue

from continual So can you address the seeming

gap between your statemen~s and what Scalia

seems to demand as far as continual flow

~S SHk1ET Ie would state that

Your

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Justice Sca~ia described re1ativey permanent

wateYs He made pretty clear wrat teose were

He did~t require any specific n~~er of days

of flow -- what he did say was common sense

and common usage distinguished between a wash

and a seasoral river and tha f s in foot1ote

five respondent likes to use the term

intermitten~ a lot but the one thing it is

clear from footnote 5 is that Justice Scalia

does not give the term intermittent any

ocegulatoY import trJhy Because he

specifically decli~ed ~o define it

JUDGE SHEEHAN Why doesnt he give

it regulatory import when at least seven

tirres by ely count in his opinion he says

iEtermi tent waters do not cca11 fy as

jurisdictional -- he even calls it an oxymQron

ac one point

~S SHAMET Even though he does

not -- he declines ~o defihe it He says that

thee are defiritions 0 nterrnttent bu he

sees 10 reason to identify what tlose are

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here I and then he specifically says I We have

no occasion in this litigation to decide

exacty whe1 he cryirg up of a streambed is

continuous and frequent enough to disqualify

tle channel as a water 0 the Cnited States

~jUDGE SHEEI-IAN I know we can t -shy

aobody knows what intermitter~t meaJs with

aOsol~te rigor thas obviously subject to

interpretation But the fact is he

contlnmiddotually rejects intermitten~ waters

whatever that Ireans as jurisdictional a1d

you say intermittent doesnt matter I dont

know how yot can say lat in the face cf al

his statements that intermittent does w~tter

HS SHAMET I think the evidence

dernorstrates pretty clearly that ther-e is

regular flow on a regular basis in these

wateTs A good exaTIple

JUDGE SHEEH1ll~ Im not talking

about the eviderce 1lT talking about the

standard

MS SHAIjET The standard lS that

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there has to be a relatvely pe-mar_ent tvater

It cant be a wash it cant be someLhing that

flows only occasionally only in response co

a very strong rainfall i~ cant be a gutter

It has to be a geographic feature ~~d in this

case we have USGS mapping these as geographic

features conainng Vlaer for over ffty

years which if thatis not relatively

permanent I In not qui te sure what would be

JUDGE SHEEHAN C-ne1 how else - shy

why else -- why is it that you cannot muster

more behind your argument that these are

lowing dyains tha1 just saying at least part

of the year continually You never say its

continual you never say its relatively

permanert ane not interrrittert you seem to

stay away from saying that and it seems

purposeful because it happens so frequently

1 S SHAHET ~J e dont

over~exaggerate our evidence we say what it

is And in this case what we r re saying is Ie

agree hsse styeams dry up for part of ~he

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year VJe f ve never argued that these were

perennial streams because theyre not They

are streams that only flow for part of the

year But part of the year is good enough

1nder Jtstice Scalia f s test These are rot

washes theyre ~ot t ckles When they flow

t1ey flow As Jlldge Mo-an pointed out I the

record is replete wi th photos of these streams

flowing and floling wi th a good arnount ofI

water them Now for exanpJe -shy

JUDGE SHEEHlll Flowing at least

part of the year right

MS SHAME~ Flowirg at least part

of the year If I could get the photo up An

example is ~his series of photos~ if we can

get it up If not Ill jus give tre exhibit

numbers Not a perfect picture This photo was

taken in December 2006 As you can see

theres visible flow in the stream A1d this

is Complainants Exhibit 328 co~plai~ants

Ex-hibit 308 - sarre sreart same location you

can tell by the cross January 07 J still

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lt- Low~ng

JUDGE SHEElI1N ~Iha t does tha t

realy prove YOJ cOl-=d go out right after a

rain as apparently happenedi apparently Dr

Whigham went out afte rain irw 07 ard Judge

Moran noted that he was out two days after a

big rain so naturally the drains were full

DJ showing us occasiQral ~-

IS SHAlyenjET If you can show four

sraight lonths of floN f think youre

probaby doing pretty good This is O1e of

respondent I S exhibits This is Dr Straws

photo ta~er_ in February 2007 This s

Respondents Exhibit 57pp

JUDGE VJOLGASI I (IT sory 1 whose

testimony was ~his

MS SHAMET Dr Straws The other

~h~ng that is documeGted -- Im just going to

go ahead and give you April April 2007 still

flow This is Complainants Exhibit 391 and

just ia case were llorried about March e

dont have March 2007 we have March 2003

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JIDGE SHEEHAN What drain is that

MS SHAMET This is Complainants

Exhibit 102L

JUDGE SHEEHAN What drain

MS SHAMET This is the portion of

drait six- seven as it leaves the si-se

crosses unde~~ea~h the railroad tracks to che

west and leaves the site We would also noce

chat in che 2003 hearing it was established

ard Judge ChaYlJeski acc6ped ordinary hig

watermark for the duration of the streams

leaving the site from the time they leave the

site cntil the time they wa~king distance

away hit traditionally navigable waters Now

whIle Justice Scalia said that existence of an

ordinary high waternark in and of itself does

not estabJish jurisdicion it does remair a

fact on the ground that shows the preseTlce of

f~c~J O-1r b~ief did cite in a footnote a

number of cases that describe what an ordinary

high water mark means and what it basically

means is that theres water there on enoJgh

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of a regular basis that theres no

vegetation and Dr Straw in poirtig at that

photo 57pp poined out that there was an

ordinary high watermark there e believe that

we 1ave s~ovm t2lougt t~1at eviderce as well is

that theres a regularity of flow through

these water bodies tJi th respect to Ms

~iilcher f s suprise that EA did not issue a

cease and desist order we in fact did we

issued an admif~istrative order n 2000 I

doat have the record citatio~ with me bu~ I

believe it was testified to in the 2003

tearilg In addi tion tlith respec 0 YIs

Wilchers conunent that EPA knew about the

operation before it was completed and didnt

intervere ~rat is also not correct In Culy

of 1999 EPA contacted respondent and

requested a site visit A- that time the work

was not done l6 site visit was scheduled in

-- they did the scheduling In July and the

visit was schedJled in September and in

August respor~dent brought equipment to the

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site and finished it up to present EPA with a

fai t accompli Couple other points There I s

bee~ a ~w~er of debates i~ t~e b~ie= about

briefs about whether or not there are in

fact wetlands on the sice and whether or not

they extend all the way to the tributaries

First of all ~othi~g in Rapanos altered the

EEe~gy and Water Developmert Appropriations

Act of 1993 Public Law 102377 106 Statutory

at Large 1315 in which Congress directed the

Corps of Eng~leers to use t~e 1987 wetlands

delineation nanual until a replacement manual

was established the courts have

recognized deference to the Corpss 1987

manual as the agencys interpretation of its

OvT regulatiors That manual was applied in

this case That manual when applied in this

case identifies wetlands throughout the site

JUDGE SHEEHAN A~e these -- are

these wetlands these draircs are tl_ey fed by

a1Y other source than rain

MS SHAMET No Your Honor These

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wetlands are what are called the top of the

watershed and this is why water flows in two

directions off of this site -- it flows both

west and east because its at the top of the

watershed

JUDGE SHEEHAN So any water on the

site its all rain-fed

MS SHAMET Yes The seasonality

of it however I can be established through

testimony regarding how the plants on this

site interact with that precipitation And

that testimony discusses the relationship

between whats called leap out and

transpiration In other words when the leaves

are on the trees the trees are uptaking water

from the ground -- from the groundwater table

and the groundwater table decreases and

thats why you see lower levels of water in

the summer During the winter when the leaves

are off the trees the trees are not

transpiring yet -- the water table rises and

thats why these are seasonally flowing

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s~reams and seasoca~ systems

JUDGE SHEEHAN Is there any

testirtony in the record abott the frequency of

the rain If rain is it is the source is

rain something on this property that occurs

f if -y times a year I a hundred t iITes a year t

two ~ines a year

MS SHAME= YOur Honor the

2003 record I believe there was an exhibit

and I apologize that I canZt name the exhibit

number for you right now that idenifies what

a one year storm is f what a three year stOrIT

is~ and l-lha a five year storm is in that

county and I apologize that I cant come up

with the exhibit number for you right now

JUDGE SHEEHAN vlell whats your

recolecion about it irhat it says eve if we

dont know the exhibit right now 111 just

trying to get a bead on how -- whether its

typically dry or typically wet there With

rain

MS SHAI-fET Your Hono f I cant

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recall I believe its under a~ inch -- around

a~ inch bu~ ca~t say foy su~e I look at

a lot of these for a let opound dipoundfeent areas

and I don~t want to get one mixed up with the

other

JUDGE ~]OGAST vTose testimony

we6 you reerrlg to gtThen you were discusslg

seasonality

MS SHAMET That was testimony of

Mr Martin It is at Remand Transcript 1912

~~d Rema~d Transcript 354

JUDGE STEI f he Board we~e to

conclude tha the evidence in this case meets

the Kennedy est is it necessary for theI

Board to consider whether the evidence meets

the plurality test

18 8HAMET Its the posiio1 of

EPA hat satisfying either test will establish

geographic jurisdiction under the Clean Water

Act As the Board noted all courts that have

so held have held tha~ if one meets re

Kennedy Tests then t~ats satised Ir

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a~swer actually to one of your questions I

1think Judge Steir there is one case It S an

unreported case out of the District of Hawaii

that has held that the Kennedy Test is lircited

to isolated waters and hat Y0l otherwise

apply to Scalia Test and that is Sierra vs

COJ1ty of Honolulu 2008 us Distcict EX=S

64262 1 and we would just note that that case

is inconsistent with the governing circuit

lali ts tle 9h Circuit and we believe its

inconsistent with Headlesburg and Moses but

you did ask lthether there was any case that

discussed he Sca=--~a test and that is the

only one at least Im aware of To answer

your question we believe t11at satisfying the

Kennedy Iest wOll-~d be sufficient and it would

not be necessary to reach the Scalia Test i

however we do beLeve thas weve satisfied

boh in this case and that ei ther test will do

it All through

JUDGE SHEEHAN Can you poi~t us iL

the record to what may not be a gap but it

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looks like a bit of a gap at least from the

briefs There I s a lot of testimony -- a lot of

discussion in your brief about the history

the history on the site water on the site

for exa~pe a 1953 p~cto s~ows di~ch O~e had

water I a 1937 photo one two and four had

water 1920 f USGS map had five -- ditch five

had water And then so we leap from sixty f

seventy years ago to the present decade

oegirning in 1999 middotJ~el a buner of inspectio1B

occurred mainly in 99 I and there was some

hopscotching and then they e~ded in 2007 So

he~e --- at least from the bries treres a

fairly big gap between the very very historic

taps and photos I and then ~he 1999-on

inspections and That they showed What about

the intervening

HS SHlIiCET - believe tha~ we also

discussed the USGS maps in 1994 which were

the most recent maps prior to activity As

YOUY HO1ort s aware from the Boards decisio1

in Bricks its inCUInbent upon us to show what

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the wates Jere lLlte before the activity f not

after the activity

JUDGE SHEE~~ Right bue the

before here is well before Thats my

~estion I dont see much except for that 94

map

MS SHAMET 1Ind we also used

aeria photography from 1994 and 1995 to

suppla--nent rphere I S been nO evidence in the

record that anything changed between 1994 and

1995 and the acivity in question which

started in I believe December of 98 or

Jaluary cf 1999 Ane I believe responcerts

agreed on the western side of the site in

their expert reper that the configuration

has been co~sistent si~ce 1949 up until the

time of the activity If there are any further

quest iors I woud jus smnnarize again by

pointing out that the facts this case are

veoy very siltple Ttese are wetlands theyre

clearly docJmented as wetlands the

preponderance of the evidence established the~

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as wetlands The preponderance of evidence -shy

tle overwhelming preponderance of the evidence

established that Chese wetlands are

performing actual documented functions The

very significant nexlJS that Justice Kennedy

described in h~s opinion The evidence in this

case shows that these wetlands are physically

adjacent to tributaries These are ditches

they are rranmade bu~ wo~d ~ust note that

iJ Ra9a~os itself the ditches were manmade

and no justices voted about that They flow

waking dista1ce to tradi tionally r~avigable

waters and 7hey are jllrisdictional Thank

you

MS v-JILCHER May it please the

cOJgt IrJClnt to t~lank couJsel for -aising the

tabletop analogy necause I forgot to This is

at a divide It is twenty feet above sea

level It 8 a watersted divde lke he

cortinental divide such hat water is flowirg

away it is not at the bottom of anything It

is nQ a marsh it is EDt a bog it is Lot a

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swarrcp i1-is is ar~ area where there is no

abili ty for the fJetland to capture and keep

pollutants out of a Y1avigable water because it

lrsef is a the very head of the watershed

And so trying 0 -- f you Jere able to be

there and see that~ you woald understand that

its not got the same type of functions and

values as some area ad) aca1t to below I

cach1g f pYEvertng po=-l-ltion cori1g frou a

10 of upstream areas While thats not

parricularly significant

JUDGE SHEEHIlll Havent yo just

helped ma~e te argumelOt that with gravity

lorking as it 60es any discharge of a

po1hltant up high wotld have made its way dOlJID

low f to a navigable water

MS WILCHER Yes so this is not

a rrounanols area fh=-s is a very slight

slope 11 fact to the naked eye it s almostt

hard to see a slope

JUDGE SHEEHAN Why does flow

matter as significant ~exus goes

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HS VrJCHER We11 the amount of

rur~offf qJie fr-ankly r~at would occur can

matte w~th regacd to that I do want 0

address a few absolutely incorrect things that

were stated and a couple misconceptions Let

me start with the mischaracterization of the

axpert witnesses that were hired in 2007

There seems to be some attempt to imply that

hiri1g differe1t expert witnesses to deal with

wtether this is ju-iscicto1al under Rapanos

is the same as having expert witnesses to

testify whether or not this area met the

former -- the actual definition of a wetland

Theyre two different things You can have a

wetland and it ca1 still not be

jClrisd~ctional So itS our hope that the

Board doesnt misconstrue that to say that by

hiring different fgtxperts you were trying to

get a different result which was not the case

-- its simply that if youre looking at how

much flow what the funcions of values ar-e

its a very differert thing fran sorteone who

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caL go ou~ a~d do the soil samples to

determine whats hydric and whats not

Seco~d jus~ as with regard to the

credibility of the witnesses just as there

were some -- a case perhaps whee ac-I expert

witness misstated something or changed its

rnird 1 so did some of the government I s expert

wi tnesses misstate something that then had to

be co-ected So did the brief that said

that took the word and and changed it to

Or witr regard to what Justice Kennedy hadI

written So I dont think that that in and of

itself has any significarce wi th regard to the

credibility of a witness tihen we are talking

abcu lGVJ fa this land is from a navigable

water counsel has mentioned that it S 2600I I

feet middotrhich is about half a mile or 4200

feet which is close to a mile -- thats not

to reac-t a navigabe water Let us be clear

That is to reach something that is not

necessarily an intermittent area4 EPA

stipulated l the stipulations dated

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Septewer 8th 03 that the water body

depicted and ]i5 is nurrbers 37 and 38 that

the water bodies depicted as these drainage

ditches on the site are depicted by the USGS

topa rEap at the 3allary Hill (Phonetic)

quadrangle as a broken blue line and that a

broken bae line denotes an irtermi ttent

stream These are intermittent streams ard as

Justice Sheehan has correctly noted Judge

Scalia says n mary circ1JIstarces that

intermittent streams are not jurisdictional

waters of the U S HmAever if we tun to irlhat

Custice Kennedy says thats rhece we kind of

get into the eitheror what we also find

there is a great discussion by Justice Kennedy

loiClself on 1e Ccrps definition of a

tributary Counsel was referring to the

drainage ditches as t-ibutaries ard Justice

Kennedy makes it c~ear that the corps

definition of tributary that was in effect at

tr~e time this decision was -rritter middotJsing he

high watermark was not appropriate I and would

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

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lead in fact to too broad a definition of what

was jurisdictional i~ and of itsef under the

Clean Water Act And theres we dont have

time to read it all but Im sure youve

probably ead it more tirres t~an have

aryay iled also jtst lke to mention tha

qui te frankly the evidence that has been

introduced in this case is the type of

evidence the Cour was r~opng would not be

Csedo prove jurisdictior on such an

important issue and that is its speculative

Its not -- were not arguing that wetlands

arent irrportart J we arent arguing that

wetlands aralt valuabe anc you know in

1990 wed say regulate because we had the

legal authority to do so This again is one

of tlese cases t1at sirrply wishing that 1_e

Q C d h dfe I~upreree o~r~ naa sal some ~~g 1 ~eren~ y

does not make it so This is what the Court

said -- thats the final word on the mater

whatever we decide ~t is bu it S tre firai

word and we c~~t change that regardless ofl

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRA-SCRIBERS

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how mportant or ho wrong someone may think

that it auld be To other quick points to

mention and that is EPA knew about this work

that was going on in February of 1999 and

that is in Jeff Lapps testimony tn Volume 1

page 167 through 169 so EA did kno Most of

t~e woyk was completed by Aprii or May of that

year before EPA every CaIne out to the site

and it wasnt until 2000 chat a notice of

violation was issued

JUDGE SHEEHamp1 So why does that

matte- That is an enforcement choice EPA makes

every day of the week and its not part of

the record i~ has nothing to do with whether

or not the Kennedy or Scalia or any other test

was met It really doesnt seem to bear on the

legal issues here

11S vIILCHER Fair enough For

purpose of ~his arg~~e~tl for t~e pur~ose of

today youre probaDly right J-luge But i~

does matcer if were talking about typical

practice of EPA and while Im well aware that

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202) 234middot4433 WASHINGTON DC 20005middot3701 wwwooalrgrO$$oom

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theres no requirement to take an enforcemer-t

action in a1ything less trar this period of

statute of limitations if in fact this was as

egregious and as violative and as problematic

as counsel appears to make it seem then EPA

did have every opportlli~ity to stOy that and

in ITany many cases vlhen EP1 sees a clear

violation of the law I they simply issues a

cease and desist order and in a case like

Rapanos in the Rapacos case you have people

who are going out anc taking action and

violating the wetlands law after theyve

received many state and federal cease and

desis orders so the facts of this case are

so di==ere~t from the facts of tha~ case Here

we have someone who was trying to comply with

the law as it was written at the time in my

view he was complying with the law as it was

wri ten at tlat time actG the fact tha EPA

didnt like ~he way the law was written and

what it said and what the courts were

deciding does not give hem authority to come

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

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in and regulate after the fact

JUDGE WOLGAST Counsel thank you

youre Olt of if you could make your

final point n just r~e next thirty secords J

I think you saie you had two I may be

mistaken

MS WILCHER Thank you Well we

are talkirg about jurisdictio1 I do think

tha tte overall =-ssJe of equity cotes i1to

play Ar~d knowing -- even krowing what the

jurisdiction was at the time of the activities

undertaken is really kind of an unc I Qar

matter Were still struggling with what

j Clrisdict iOI is Re9rettably toat s always

been t~e problem with this program

problem Igtli th this progral7l is that Corgress did

not give us clear direction and clear guidance

to either EPA or to the Boyds or to anyone

else in the regulative corrmlUnity and I t-hink

that s a factor certainly that the court Iblil

consider ard should corsder I when making a

decision on issues of liability and in this

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND tRANSCRIBERS

~323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW i202 234-4433 WASHINGTON DC roooS-3701 WWWlI$alrgmssOOffl

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case we would ask that you do so Thank you

J1DGE voLGAST Thank YOJ Cours

thank yOJ for your arguUent and the case is

now submitted

MS DURR All rise Session of the

Environmenta Appeals Board nmv stands

adjourned

(Whereupon the above-entitled

matter was concluded at 11 16 am)

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON DC 20005-3701 wwwnealrgrossoom

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Page 82

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Page 83

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CERTIFICATE

This lS to certify tha~ ~he foregoi~g transcript

in the matter of Snith Farm 3nterprises ILC

Hon Anna Wolgast E-wironmenta Appeals Judge

Date Jaly 20 2010

Flace Washingson DC

represens the ful and complete proceedings of the

aforementio1cd marter as reported and reduced to

typewriting

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCR8ERS

1323 rOOE iSLAND AVE_ NW (202 234-4433 WASHtGON DC 20005-3701 fNWnnalrqft)6Scom

Page 5: BEFORE THE ENVIRONMENTAL APPEALS BOARD IN ... By...MS. DURR: Environmental Appeals Board of the U~ited States Environmental Protec~ion Agency is now in session for oral argument, in

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which is clearly the subject of our

conversation today

oward that end ve Jlot~d l=-ke to

jcst br~efly call to the Boards attention a

short history of the case going back to 1998

and 1999 when drainage ditches were

constructed on Smt~ Fanrs 1 some wooded

areas dra~ni1g that that land The - shy

beorepound tne proJec~ t-negan anabull was under t aken

Mr Boyd contacted and met with the Army Corps

of asked for ~heir opinion

concerning jurisdictional issues and otter

issues concerning a permit The corps of

Engineers certainly never indicated in any

fashion that there was a problen at that time

jurisdictior~aly consderirg tle wor~ that was

a~ticipated to occur

Of course were here today largely

because the whole jurisdictional issue has

been turned up Ol ts head by Rapanos in 20061

and can certainly say that Ve Vould be in a

very different situation were it back to 1989

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRBERS

323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON DC 20oo5-37D1 wwwMlllrgro01HXlffi

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or ~92 or 93 ween I was at tt8 Agency and

dealing with iss~es when then the only thing

that was necessary for the Agency to prove was

that there were waters of ~he United Sta~es

ncluding wetlands that is lands that vere

inundated or satura~ed by surface or ground

water s~ch that ~hey could and ordinarily did

support a prevalence for vegetation typically

adapted to life in saturated soil conditions

We always referred on the Riverside Bayview

case and extended the adjacency of the

wetlands to a navigable water beyond that

such tha any tine thac there were wetla~ds

that they were conside-ed to be

jlrisdictiol1al ard eniorcemalt actior~ woud

have been considered proper

In the Rapanos Case the court

talks abo~t the expanding jurisdiction by the

Corps of Engi~eers and cetainly by

extension to EPA when in many of those

circumstances EPA was pushing the Corps to

expa1d their jurisdiction And the court

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AO TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE Nw 2(2) 234middot4433 WASHINGTON 00 20005middot3701 WWWllealrgrC$$OO((

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po s out that tneuro Corps adopted increasingly

broad interpretations of its own regulations

Talked about the migratory bird rule It

talked about how the Corps rad exparded ~ts

own interpretations of the definition of

tributaries to include ephemeral streams ard

c~ose that ran ~hrough drainage Qitc~es And

then the plurality opinion goes on to clarify

that that type of regulation was never

intended to be covered by the Clean raer Act

as waters of the U S SOIDe of the key

JUDGE STEIN Ms Wilcher

JiS ~TIL-CrER Yes

JVDGE STEIN Has any court held

that the plurality test alone determines

jurisdiction

ItS WILCHER I do not believe

that any court has held that the plurality

test alo~e confers jurisdiction

JUDGE STEIN Okay

MS 11 I LCHER I assume that the

court wants to hear about that since it is an

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1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202) 23~4433 WASHINGTON DC 20005lt)701 wwwnealrgrosscom

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impotant part of the decision AQd we can

talk about significant nexus next I if thatS

okay or if you wart me to go to significant

nexus now I be happy to do that

JUDGE STE=N No thats fine you

car talk about the pluralities first but le~

me ask you if we were to find that the

eviQe~ce met as J~dge Xoran oQ~6 the

significant nexus test but for whatever

reason it didnt meet the plura~ities test l

L1en vhat is middotJ~e OJtcorneuro

MS WILCHER Now thats a very

and no one knows In the Fourth Circuit

specifically what the outcome of that -- what

the outcome would De The Rapanos test

unfortunately in an effort to reign in

jurisdicion by the Corps and EPA created

probably as many questions as it did answer

and its created a lot additional

lit~gation So we I re here synpatretic 0

EPAS plight of having to try to figure out

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISlAND AVE NW (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON DC 20005lt701 wwwnoolr9f05Sc(JITl

------- --

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what that meanS l a~d the regulated community

also rying 0 figure oat what it means

becalse it is simply not clear The Marks case

that said that you would select the nost

Earow of the interpretations n a case such

as this might be difficult to apply because

it S hard to figure out itlhat the most 1arrowI

cefinition or application of this case would

be Obviously from Smith Farms standpoint

we would be really delighted shou~d =h~s board

decide to follow the Ilarks opinion and decide

that the Scalia test would be the most

appropiae here bJt vere perfecty preparedl

to address both

JUDGE WOLGAST B~t that is -- but

yot-e assuning trat the narrowest grounds

would then be the pluralities test as opposed

to say I the narrowest ground sin-ply being

tha hey rejeced the Rapanos evicence ald

remanded the case In terms of what -- what

five justices could agree to It Jas simply

ocemand

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1323 RHODE ISlAND AVE NW Z02 24-4433 WASHINGTON DC 20005-37)1 WflW J10slrgrosscom

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MS rLCHER rgthat f S rigrLt Thats

right But i s presumed trat the CO-clrt s

reasoni1g ar~d the four -- the opinion of the

four written by Scalia the opinion of

Roberts the opinion of Justice Kennedy all

rreant sameL-hing J and hat is what we are left

to vlork within and -shy

TUDGE SHEEHAN What do you think

cf the governme~ts argument trat either test

can apply as the First and Eighth Circuits

have held

MS WI~CHER well clearly a

nillnber of circuits have held that either test

Itould apply f ard in this case we we

believe that the evidence despicB what the

ALJs have found we believe the evidence

clea~ly shows that under neither test would

this area considered to be jurisdictional

~nder the curre~t interpretatio~ of the Clean

Water Act u~der Rapanos

And I really do think chat

not wanting to lose the forest for the trees

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRA1SCAIBER3

1323 RHODE jSlAND AVE NW (202) 2344433 WASHINGTON DC 20005-370~

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here the forest -- the big picture is thatI

Rapanos is a dramatic shift in the way

busir~ess as usual has been done aL these

agencies from 1972 ~ntil 2006 It is -shy

in 2001 you had a little deviation here but

its a ilge dfference and what we find in

the brief -- and what we find in the brief of

t1e govermnent in this case is lot much of a

differerce from how the law previously lttas

interpreted and Ill -- Ill just go ahead

aYld address thae ssae and that is that the

the strongest argument it appears that

he government nakes in its brief dealing

with the significant nexus test is that

wetlands are ~rrponart ~1etlards provide

valuable functions and even Rapanos case

notes that the Clean V~ater Ac has been very

important and serves an important public

interests and Section 404 and the wetla~ds

laws i-l particuar provide ar~ irportant public

interest

JUDGE SHE1 Vie11 i 81 c the

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governments argument that these wetlands I in

particua are important I and can you address

how these wetlands do or do not meet the

Kennedy significant nexus test

fiS WILCHER That woud be t1e

goverlli~ents argument but in this case they

have failed cO co inCroduce by a

preponderance of the evidence ~hat that is

the case

JUJGE WOLGAST Coud you describe

for us what you ~elieve the goverr~ent would

have to show at a minimum to meet Justine

Kernedys significant nexus test in this

context

MS ~iILCHER At a mini~um they

wotd have to show some measure of the effec

that would be had by this wetlands property

upor~ a navigable vater of the Uni ed States

and they have not done so ln ary regard

JUDGE SHEEHIN Wasnt there

abunda1t testimony says the gDve=runent by

expert i1itness Martin and others that there

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was such a C oILleci en YOJ f re speakirg very

theoretically Id like if you could to get

specific about what you think the failu~es are

i~ the governments case on the Kennedy test

MS ~VIrJCHER Yes but if you -shy

+_--ne if you look at the gover1TIleuroEt s

argument one of their lengthy arguments is

about the impact 0 denitrification that

VJetlands provide an important deni trification

iss~eJ pointing out that the Chesapeake Bay

tas too rruch nityogen and tbat its important

to keep that out They talk about the fact

that n~toger coues from atrrosphe-ic

deposition They talk about the fact that

microbes in the soil vi22 break hat rtroger

down and then they talk about that once the

nitrogen is broken dmvr it ll be taken up by

the breeze and i If~ay even be given off again

into -- into the air

JDGE STEIN ltJasn f t there

plentiful testimony by government witnesses

and the companys witnesses as to what was

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occurr~ng specifically at this site I mean

I think the challenge for the compa~y i~ this

appeal 8 that there were credibili ty findings

Chat tiere made by the ALJ as to some of the

testimony by respondents by the companys

wi tnesses and given the Board f 5 standard forJ

crecibility determinations where the 30ard

you knovl historically ove many mar~y years

gives great weight to an ALJ~s finding how is

it ha t we can ove look he ALJ S credibi lity

determinations in the face of countervai~ing

evidence ~hat the ALJ found ~o be credible

(S WILCHER Judge Stel if I

can finish Judge Sheehans question I III ge

right back 0 you on that You were wanting

some specifics and an example of what the

government tried to prove in its case By

go~ng through this whole denitrification

process they nake ~o distinction betwee~ the

value that ris particalar wetlald is making

or any paricular wetland is making I to the

denitrification 0 the Chesapeake Bay

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JUDGE SHEEHAN But the Kennedy

tea says that if wetlands aloLe or in

combination with other wetlands have that

kind of effect

115 WILCHER Wetlands alone or in

corrbinato1 with otrer wetlands or in

combination lith the uplands the arguments

~ha t tbey ace laking wOClld apply equally to

uplands and as the court noted in the Rapanos

decision applying some of these tests as the

government histori cally has applied them to

say that they are jurisdictional sirrply

because hey have value and may be somewhat

miles aay hut may have some connection or

some val~e ~i~es away being speculative in

nature does rot cause it to be

jurisdictional and it sa~d i~ so the en~ire

United States would be considered regulated

llilder tbe Clear~ ater Act

JUDGE SHEEHAN Theres ~~ theres

one and cot to get in the vay of Judge

Steins question but Qne of the exhibitsr

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Remand Exhibit 937 shows a very honeycombed

tissue through the Srith Farm weta1ds going

ou~ to the two rivers and then to the bay I~

looks sure _ surely to me it looks from this

exhibit and otes as if tl1e wetlands are very

proximate to and affect directly the waters

below Car you address that

KS WILCE2R I wil Those naps

do not show any actual measurable connection

nor do they show a contir1oJS surface

conE6ction r~avigable vrates

JUDGE SHEEHAN Why does it have to

be a surface connection tilly car_ t it be stbshy

surface if theres a hydrological link

MS WILCHER But theres ~o

showir~g of a silD-surface hydroogica liak

either Theres a total lack of evidence of

probative dence i~ th~s case to actualy

tie that paricu=-ar vletland Co a rcavigable

water which by the way you would have to gor

fcom tha wetland to a drair~age ditcr~ anc

went out there and traipsed down the site

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before I came here to talk to you about this

but youd have to go fr~~ that -- b~t this ~s

all en the record -- YOlld have to go fron

that area that might be-- that part of it that

might be considered a we~land~ through

drainage di tches t1at are only inerrrit ert

in nature and t1e evidef~ce is clear that

theYre only intermittent in nature including

the USGS blue line dotted lines and then they

would have to go from tlere to Bailey Creek

non- navigable to Drurr Point Creek

non-navigable] then to tributaries of the

westeGl branch of the Elizabeth River I which

is t~e f rst tne you I d hi a ~avigable wate

If go in the opposite

direction they would have to go from drainage

ditches to Quake~ Neck Creek to ~eans Bra~ch

which are tributaries 0 tne ravigable water

the Nansemond River 14d so there there is

no proof that there is a connection

Things could lave been done Tne-e

cOmiddotJld have been dye raclgs there cOlld have

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been a~l kinds of evidence hey could have

taken samples they could have done

quantitative analysis There is no chemical

evidence there is no physical evidence there

is no biological evidence that connecs this

to a navigable water f and therein lies the

problem

JJDGE TO~GAST Justa if I

could follow up on that before we get back to

cred~bility iss~es

MS HLCHER Okay

JUDGE WOLGAST Are you saying that

the fact they floTlI throJgh ditches is a

jurisdictional problem

MS 1tILCHER Not particularly

JUXE vIOLGASI And the1 get ~ ing

back to the testimony that Judge Sheehan was

referring to where JIdge Morar was referring

to the testimony of Mr Rhodes and Mr Martin

that the property provides flood storage flow

moderaion carbOIl sequestration vlater

purification denitrification what I want to

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undsystard aboJt your argument 1s are these

aspects insufficient or would they be

sufficient if in your mind there was more

evidence of the connection of these attributes

to the Nansemond or Elizabeth Rivers

MS iILCHER EPA -- the govenment

cant simply say that wetlands are valuable

because they are-- help prevent flooding and

not show that they would help prevent flooding

in this particular case and that it would

significantly help prevent flooding in t~is

partcular case lrJha ttey have done toe

Drie is to siIply lay down he well-knoJl

attributes a~d valuable functions and values

of wetlands and said therefore this is

having a significant effect on navigable

~ivers Theye is not a co~~ection they have

lot snoltm by a1y credible evidence cause and

effect of any sigrifcant iIEpact tpon thef

navigable rivers

JUDGE SHEEHAN But you make

again a very theoretical argument about the

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fact Chat the goverruuent just argues wetlands

fgelerally but werer t government wi tnesses

crawling allover this property mul iple

times testify~ng at great lengtl lots of

exhibits aerials historc maps and

everythi~g else to show in this case fo~ this

property there was trat link Its hard to

believe with all that 11Bssive Estimony and

getting to ~he credibility issue that he

governrrent doesn~t have a pretty solid case

rat hat nexus sat) sfyilg the Kennedy test

exists

MS WILCHER It is hard to

believe I totally agree It is hard to

believe Tle governmert has had unfettered

aCCess to this property for over a decade and

have failed 0 develop flmr drainage elements

they cant show how illuch flows off the site

they cant show vhat type of sediment runoff

might have occurred at ~he site ~hey ca~tt

show what type of water retention is teld Jy

the site t~ey have been unable to show any

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ecoogical cC1nection 1tith regard to wildlife

there was a Woodcock seen on the site There

is absolutely -- and its amazing to me hat

tr~ere is a void

JUDGE STEIN But isnt the test a

nexus a significant nexus not this

sJbstantial inpacts est that I hear wove]

through some of your statements and T dont

-- when I go back and I look at the Kennedy

opinion you knot] and some of he hings t1at

are cited I dont necessarily see that that

test requires the level of proof that youre

stggesing is reqJired ny hat test So

perhaps you could explain to me based on the

Kennedy opinion how you get from there to the

level of proof Lhat you re a5~ing for f just to

establish jurisdiction

MS WILCHER Certainly

JUDGE STEIN I mean I we re not

here to determire you know penalty or

anything else were here just to figure out

if youre even i~ tbe door

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MS IILCHER Yes understand

Ie 1 1 what Justice Kennedy said was to talk

abmlt he fJay the Corps nac typically

regulated wetlalds and then to say absent

more speciic regulations however the Corps

must establish a significant nexus on a case

by case bBSS wler it seeks to regulate

wetlands based on adjacency to non-navigable

tributaries and then it goes on to say given

the potential over breath of the Corps yen s

regulations this showing is necessary to

avoid unreasoDable applications of the

statute

The justice wrote I no~ just a

~exus if the COurt had only said there has to

be a nexus then o~e would have a different

burden of proof in this case the court said

a significant nexus and we have to assnne

that a significant nexus is meaningful that

those words mean SOIEethi1g So theres a -- at

least a two-step process One to show that

theres a nexus and the other is to show that

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its significant and that is what the record

is devoid 0 in this particular case

JUDGE SlEIN But its not a

significa1t impact its a significant nexus

MS iILCHER Thats right a

significant nexus And the sigrificart rexus

must -- and if YOu read through the rest of

the case it talks abolt hm -- that in order

to regulate land as water there must be some

type of impact on the water

JUDGE SHEEHAN Justice Kennedy

also uses a phrase that think is pertinent

here r he says that the how -- how the proof is

determined has to be done in a practical way

ard i almost sounds as if what you I re

requiing is that the governrrent set up flow

meers or pour a vial of discharge into a

ditch and see if it eventually ends up in the

Chesapeake or do something on a very

impractical scale to prove ~he connectio~

MS WILCHER You know this is a

really important issue The governrrent has to

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do sOIething oJer than to make allegations r

especially in a case where youpoundre dealing with

constitutional issues such as privae property

rights and how one car jse his own property

or hers and in this case I there are lots of

things tha~ EPA historically has done for

ypcal NPDES cases But when you before he

Board on a NPDES case theres at least some

measure If they had had pictures that there

las a plurne comir_g off of this wetlar~d if

theyd done any flow calculations if theyd

had any physical chemical biological

evidence of a nexJS and a signiican- nexus to

the navigable waters which again( are not the

ditches they are the ditches that flow to the

creek that flow 0 the creek that flow 0 the

navigable waters j then it would be a different

case but that is not what has happened in

this case

JUDGE IJOLGAST Well as you say

the goverIl1lent obviously has the burden of

proof i~ a~ eLfo~cerne~t case l but is this the

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same type of evidence that you thirk a

_a~Qowne~ should Lndertake I mean obviouslY

they have the burden to obtain a permit where

there is potential jurisdiction

I~S ~JILCaER Btt if the person

doesnt obtain a permit ~~ and the government

thinks that theyre i~ error again the

government always has the burden of proof

JUDGE vJOLGAST Right but J 1m

talking about getting a -- yOJ know starding

in the landowners shoes before weve ever

gotten to an enforceme1t case it -- it I

mean I ~h~nk theres some iSS48 with getting

back to the Supreme Court case that one of

he things that were concerned about - at

least lJustice Scalia pointed to was how much

evidence time money it takes to vJOrk

thro~gh ~h~s process and it sou~ds like the

yeLl know r the advocacy here is that there

should be more not less

)15 ~JLC1ER There stou1d be

something dore by the government in thi s

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regayd to actually prove a nexus and a

sgnificant nexus ard in this ease I canr

assuye you Judge Wolgast that the l~downer

has go~e above and beyond the oall of duty

going to the Corps time after ti~e having the

Corps ou to tr~e site and having spent talk

about the time and money and investmert having

his case as understand it having spent

over $800 000 in litiga~ion costs to try to

pr-otect what was legal at tl~e time that it was

aone and so -- so there is a burden

The governme1t has the burden aid

in this case in this par~icular case they

failed to meel it I don I t know why I haven [t

been involved that lor~g ~ would speculate

tl1at by the time he Rapanos case cane along

it V~as jlSt too hard to go back and find the

type of probative evidence that would carry

the cay_

I do not necessaily thirk that

its an impossible tas~ There have been ot~er

cases that ve reviewed aihere the goverrUent

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has irtroduced evidence of the poundows tr~e

amount of drainage that has occurred how much

water might be taken up by a wetland area$ but

none of that was done in thi s particular case

and again we can only speculated why that

was the case

JDDGE STIN How does tr_s S~xth

Circuit decision in the Cundl f f matter bear on

your view that the -- you need some sort of

laboratocy araysis to prove h~s7

MS ~VILCHER in that

particular easel you dont have as I ~ecall

the -- the disarce roIT a navigable waer

tha t we have here [ and I think the farther you

are away from a navigable water the harder it

is 0 prove tha~ theres any impact on that

navigable water and in this -- again in this

case they are far away from a navigable

water and I think toe reaSC1 tha~ we don

see the p=oof is because its not there itS

not developable and that is why it is not

Cere Did yOl wart De to ~~

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JUDGE STEIN I do wact you to get

the credibility question

MS bull WILCHER I dian t t want to

forget your - shy

JUDGE STEIN No while we we~e on

this topic why cor t t yOJ addres s the

credibility question

MS vILCHER I think its an

important question IC t S a real important

question and that is simply that s even though

the regtllatior~s do provide that typicaily when

the ALJ hears the witnesses and makes

determinations 0 ~~eir credib~~ity that

typically this Board will defer to that

However in this case a carefctl review of the

record shows that the ALJs just got it wrong

and it is within this Boards prerogative to

look at the -- look at t1e factors tha

that the ALJs used in making their

deterninatior and make a judgreJt aboJt

wl1ether those factors are sufficient

A couple of examples There was a

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mar who had Iived OT the farm for h~rty years

who testified that he I d walked over the farm

for thir~y years and testified that in fact

Ithe streams J or the drainage di tches were

intermittent in nature and did not carry water

I - 1 h d - a11 th e trre bull e __ t e JU ge ~n tHe QeClS10n

said well I think hes a nice man I think

hes beholden to the Smi ths f and he was just

Ollt or a wa so totally just discounted his

testimony saying he WBS just out on a walkJ

as if that meant t~at somebodywQuldnt no~ice

DGE ~vOGAST ~ Are yot saying

though that it would have to carry water all

tre time

MS vHLCHER No no But but

it f s clearly -- is Eot a navigable water lor

it is adjacent nor is the wetland adjacent to

a navigable water in this case It flows

anything t~at =lows opound= of t~at a~ea that has

been considered to be wetland by the

goverr-Uent flows -rxough drainage ditches

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that are only intermittent in nature and

~herefore are ~ot co~sidered to be navigable

watsYs clea~ly urder the Rapanos decison

JUDGE SHEEHAN But if the man

walking the land said that they were

intermittent and youre saying intermittent

doesnt matter

I~S IgtlILCHER Were saying that -shy

Judge Cha~eski as I recall said tha~ there

was a c01tinuOU5 flow of 5088 kind isnt that

-- d~~lt J~dge Char~eski say that

WOLGAST lrJell Justice

Scalia said that even after that -shy

HS WILCHER Right right

JUDGE WOLGASl That that

seasonal flow could establish jurisdiction

~nder the pluralitoes test

148 t-JILCEER BJt there s not beenj

seascnal flow established -=-n this case Yot

have somebody going out there en particular

days after these ditches have been dug which

we all know alter the flow in drainage after

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the eLi tches are dug ftJaer goes to the lowest

level and so theres going to be more water

draining OU= of there t~a~ ~here would have

been in 1998 and 1999 and that -- that is

clear ~tat ~tere is no ev~de~ce ac the time

this was done they were -- they were anything

but inerYlitten and here l s no j1risdictiola1

connection that they have proven to date

JUDGE ~JOLGAST And what do you

think they would have had to have shown to

show seasonal flow

MS ~IILCHER Well they could

have done something more than go out there

nine times over tbe course of a year rrhey

could have had aerial photographs taken Ihey

cod have -- weil first yOl have the uSGS -shy

you have the USGS maps as showing its

inteYrnittent and theres lierally no

testimony en the record right now to show that

theyre anything but interrrdtent Ot-her than

to say that if somebody goes out there ~ine

Cimes and looks at the flow and sees water

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then -- agair~1 keeping ir mind this was years

atel 1_8 dainage d=- tches tver-e dtg ha t were

channeling more water into the old one through

seven drainage areas there B nothing tof

establish what was the~e at ~he time in 1998

a~d 1999

JUDGE VlOLG~rST And I think

isnt this what courts are struggling with in

the sense that its -- its one thing to say

~ts ~~ter~itte~tf b~t is that good enough I

mean I dont you have to figure out just how

much flow in you know what period of time

or the idea that -- I dont -- if someoae

says t~at its intermitte~t Irr not sure that

means its ir~ or out without further evidence

MS WILCHER Right Well that

shows really the that shows arguably a

cQnYlecion Bu how rrlcr =ow is going through

there whether sediment loading is going

through there whether theres an ecological

connection through there all these whethers

lead to whether t~e~e is a sig~ificant nex~s

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to a navigable water and if you look at some

of the other cases ~here has been that kiLd of

information introduced and in this case there

is none

JUDGE vJOLG1ST hhat case are you

thinking of

MS vJILCiER I thirki1g maybe

t was the Precon case ir - - in the Eastern

District of Virginia Its on appeal in the

Fourth Circuit I may r~ve been ~hat BJt

I 11 be happy to provide some cases -- a case

or cases later on that show the type of

evidence that tas been introdJced because I

remember reading about them and cant think of

the name right now

TlDGE SHEEIiAN I Vant to go back

for a moment to Judge Stein J s question about

credibility

gtIS CLCHER YOS

JUDGE SHEEHAN So ALJ Moran sat

through days and days of testimony on the

bench a lot of pecple ~n ~~at witness chair

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Hes there hes on he scere hes

~nterpreting the way the witnesses speak and

their basic credibility which you can only do

face to face in that way Wha~ is it about

what happened there that causes you to think

theres sOne way or some reason for as not to

credit the typ~cal deferehce we would extend

There must be some exception here that we ~eed

0 know about for that to happen

MS WLCHER tAJel1 r ard there are

a few facts that I think would be relevant to

your consideration in that case In the first

instance some of these wi~nesses that the ALJ

deter~ined were not credible --Jere stipJlated

as being expert vtitnesses and hat shows at

least sorre level of credibility in the mind of

the government w th regaro to whetJ~er they

were experts in the field

Second some of the criticisms

in one case a criticism that an ALJ made of an

expert wi tness was that he had not beer~ 0 the

site often enocgh yet vith one of the

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gover~ors -~ goverG~entls expert witnesses

that person had been to the site less times

t1an t1e Srith Farms expert witress A1C SO

there is a confounding sense that in this

particular case for whatever reason if the

experts agreed ~ th r~e goverr_rne1t f they were

credible and that if they di~~t they were

not

It just seems highly unlikely that

every single witness iltroduced by Smith

Far~s and Ive had the pleasure of working

wi th Mr Boyd and it lS just I think

statistically urEkely that one could End

that many unmiddotmiddotmiddotcredible witnesses and in thisf

case I do not believe that they were not

credib2e I believe they were as credible ald

as I mentioned in some cases were stipulated

in beirg expert w~t~esses ~~

JUDGE SHEEHAN So you didnt

believe they were

HS WICHER I did not bel ieve

they were not credible so I believed that

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they were credible And -- and it is sOIEewhat

confoundirg other than to say that the

closest thing that I could figure out was that

if hey supported t~e governments viev tey

were credible and if they did not support the

governments Vlew I they were not

CJDGE trrOGAST But dien f t Judge

Moran find that -- and to generalize ---- that

the witnesses failed to establish that to the

exent t1ere were weta1ds they -lere isolated

by on-hydric soil lasnt that a central part

of his credibility determination

MS ~vILCHER Well trat S O1e of

the findings that Judge Moran made but in

this paricular case keep in mind its not

Smi Parms tha-c has 0 show that there is a

break or a barrier -- its the government who

has to show that the~e is a con~ection

JUDGE liOLGAST Of

understand Right

HS IIILCHER So theres cerainly

pockets of non-hyd~ic soil in tte area and

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for SOle reaSCl EPA _ ar~d again this is just

ki~d of amazing to me

spent this long on that EPA did not go out

there and do a typical delneaion of the

site and this is something that is cypically

done Its amazing that EPA did not issue a

cease and desist order as soon as t~ey ~~ew

abouc it There are many things that to me

are amazing about this case that quite

frarky I are he easor that I came nere to

argue it Because lIm a strong believer in

protecting the Clean Water Act and in

protec~ing lteta-ds and you mayor may lOot

know from my history I I bear a lot of scars

from having trIown myself in the body of

wetlands protection bac~ in the days ana I

still believe its an important thing to do

But I also believe its important to follow

~~e rule of law and ~n chis case Mr Boyd

made every effort to follow the rule of law

and I bel ieve he did and when it did not work

out tte way that EPA wanted the law to be

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this enforcement action came forward at a

time -- and had they intervened early on i~

t~is case they cou~d have stopped They knew

months before the work was cOITpleted -- hey

knew months before the work was completed that

there was ditching and draining going on

t~ere and trey did no move in quickly to try

to resolve that case ar~d they could have -shy

they could have stopped most of the so called

harm that they are now alleging but chose not

to do so ~~ey dd ~ot do a deineaLion they

did not inroduce proof that this particular

part of property has a significant nexus to

jurisdictional waters of the United States to

a navigable water of the United States I and

thats the reason I~ he~e

JJDGE VJOLGASI I see your time is

expired if theres no other questions

MS WILCHER Thank you

MS S~J~ET~ Good morning You=

Honors My name is Stefania Shaliat and I

represent Region III in this matter

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specifically the complainants who are the

division directors for the Environmental

Assessment a1d Irr~ovation Divisio1 and he

vater Protection Division I at EPA Regio11 III

With me at counsel table Id like to

i~troduce DO1la Carner-Tal f who is regulatory

co-msel for the Nc-folk District Army Corps of

Engineers and Karen ~lendelowskl gt who is with

the office of general cour~sel and also we

have a disirglshed g1e8 1$ d lke to

introd~ce -- si~~ing behind me is Dr Dennis

Whigham with the Smithsonian Environmental

Resea=cr Cente- Your Honors responders have

do~e ~~ if I ca~ get in a couple points -- a

good job of obfuscating what are really very I

very simple facts here The simple facts are

hat these are tllelands perfouuiq docurrenced

functions that are delivered to tributaries

These wetlands are adj acent physically

trose trib-ltaries f ard those

tr lbtacies flow to traditiorally navigable

waters to the West 2600 feet away to the

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East 4200 feet away In other words the are

wetlands adjacent to tributaries that low

waki1g clstance to tr-adi ional1y navigable

waters These Vetlfu1ds were jurisdictional

under SWANCC as respondent conceded in Clean

~later Act Appeal mmber 05-05 when respondent

reseved argll1snt on jtrisdicto1 but chose

not to raise it un~il there was a change in

case law They continue to be jurisdictional

under any standard enunciated by he Supreme

Court in Rap~~os The qJan~u~ of proof offeree

by the complaina1ts i1 this matter not only

exceeds preponderance of the evidence it

exceeds any quantum of proof required by

Rapanos In fact t far exceeds it Another

thirg that is obscured in the ar9J11ent here by

the respondents is that up until 2007

respondents had a different set of expert

witnesses It las tlose expert witresses that

coroplainalts stipulated 1heir expertise was

in wetlands identification and the connection

of wetlands to waters of the uniced States

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Ihose witnesses largely agee with

complainac1t I s version of the facts on the

ground ae-d i wasnt until 2007 when

respondents hired a new set of expert

witnesses that any real dispute arose about

what exactly was going on in the site There

was dispute about ithat hat nean f but not

exacly what the physical characteristics of

t21e si te ere

J1DGE WOLGAST Counsel coud you

address Ms wilchers points that while there

may be flow moderation carbon sequestration

there may be some evidence that the government

hasnt shmlTI a nexus between those

characterist~cs and the ~avigable waters

vIS SHAME Sure First of alI

the evi6erce of Je fuYlctions beirg performed

on this S1 te is not speculative There are

photo after photo and testimony after

testimony the governments evidence is based

or established scientific literature that

identifies something called field indicators

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-- physical characteristcs on the ground -shy

that when identified correlate to a specific

functi~n being formed by the wetland In this

case there are three Tr~e first was fow

noderaiou and one of the physical

characteristics thez-e would be such things as

ponding you see a lot of later being

captured in low levels depressional levels

withir the wetland Tle record conta1s dozens

of photos of that The secord is

denitrification and that is the microbes

llptaking nitrogen in the soil That indicator

is something called modelirg i1 he soil It sI

a red spotch Essentially it IEeans that iron

is there That evidence comes not only from

the complainants but if one were to reviel

the soi 18 expert froIT respordent Dr Parkers

O~ I-fr arlter f s firs expe~t repo-t ir

20C3 he describes modeling in his sails The

third is primary production That is the1

contribution of a food source Taking

transforming organics that a2e in the _- in

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nature into a food source in water that then

tralsports that food source dowYlsream to

higher trophic organisms The best evidence of

that actually comes from one of respondents

experts Dr Cahoot 1110 photographed it

leaving the site I cant find the photo at

the marneYlt f blt I 11 describe what he says

Foaing a he confluence of the ditch

leaving the property with ditches along the

property boundary near the railroad This foam

vias also sampled and examined microscopically

--- it contained primary plant debris some

peller ald rllnero-lS sma oil droplets These

oil droplets in my opinion were probably

plant oils derived froI decomposition of the

organic matter in this area That description

correlates perfectly with the description in

the testimony in tZ1e remand hearng about what

primary production s the transport of

particulate and dissolved organics downstream

as a food sOJce So the -Jse 0 the -- t~1e

functions this case are not speculative

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theyre clearly being per-formed theyre

clearly being cocC1ented as beir~g perforrred on

this wetland Theres also evidence of the

hydrologic connection between this wetland

the ibuaries and the downst-eam

trad~tionally r~avigable waers Again that

comes both frOIE complainant ~ s experts as well

as some of respondents experts one of

respondent I s experts described tr_at hydrologic

co~nectio3 as such He descrbed the wetland

as a table tcp on which somebody pours water

the water comes off of that table top into

the ditches and then tansports down to the

taditional1y navigable waers The sane

expert lgtIr Wolf also agreed that the

wetlands on the site were in fact

hydrologically conYlected to the di tches wr~ich

forrr tributaries and lJlere n fact adjacs1t to

them So we also have fUTIction ard we have

transport Now with respect to Ms Wilchers

corrment -shy

JUJGE WOLGAS~ is YoDr

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posi tion on the type of evidence that you

need to show nexus of

characteristics you see on site to the

navigable waters

gt1S SHAtvET My positio1 is tha we

met it exactly and I would refer you to

Justice Kennedys opinion Justice Kenledy

ide~tified the type of functions that he would

consider to form a significant nexus

traditional navigable waters and those are

p~ecisely the functions that were identified

on this site Specifically Justice Ker-nedy

refers to slowirg COt-C of surface runoff r

filtration and purification -- that would be

in on 547 US 773 to 75 He sta~es with respect

to weta1ds f the rationale for the Cleal ~fater

Act regulation is as the Corps as recognized

that vetlands can perforrl cri tica2 functioES

re2-ated to the integrity of other waters

functions such as pollutant trapping -- in

other words l denirifcatior~ -- flood control

flow moderation and ruriOff storage

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Ther-efore the types of functions that we

docrraented as beng performed or this site are

precisely the ypes of unctiors tha Jusice

Ken1edy ide1tified J in his opinion as the

type of functions that form a significant

nexus

JUDGE SHEEHAN In in your

brief on page 46 you say that the Kennedy

Test requiEs weta1ds cont-ibutions to the

physical c1emical or biologic in-egrity of

doOrIlstream waters -- is it nor or Hand Your

brief says or

MS SHAMET The brief says II or -shy

JUDGE SHEEHAN Because if it can

De just one of those -shy

SHA4ET I believe Justice

Kennedy did use and however it is c2ear

that he does not require a function to

contribute to all ~hree factors and chats

clear from the function he identifies

JUDGE SHEEHAN Then why did he say

and

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MS SHAMET I think he said and II

but he had a comraa and a1d he was -eferring

to a list of examples rather than a standard

i1ith respect to Ms Wilchers cormnent that we

dont have any photographs of pltLnes as I

indicatedf one were to trt 0 R Ex 28 f

which llnfortunatey I can f find right now I

ltlhich is Respondent 1 s Exhibit 28 from the

first hearing in 2003 Dr Cahoon provides a

picture of that plume himself I would also

point out that with respect to

denitriication one wouldnt expect to see a

pInrr -- thats the exact point its to hold

Che nitrogen on the wetland -lot send it

downstream

JUDGE STEIN How is the Rapanos

significant nexus test d_fferent if at all

=rom the nexus i~ Rivervew Rverside

Bayview

MS SHAMEl Riverside Bayvie

assumed a nexus based upon adjacencYi in this

case lJustice Kennedy has asked that we

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actually go forward and establish that the

nexus exists rather than simply assuming itI

based On adjacency

JUDGE SHEEHamp~ on page 41 of your

brief you quote some of the tesciroo1Y of the

first ALJ hearing I which sounds a lit~le more

entative to me tha1 youre souidir_g today

about the substa1tial nexus test being met

The brief~ at page 41 reads that these

wetlands are more likely to perform

denitrification more likely to allow for

suspended settlements -- sediments to settle

out~ more likely to support a different suite

of wildlife species that to me is

lar-guage ~rats ~ot qui~e as powerful as

saying there is a substantial nexus met here

that just sounds -- can yo~ address what seems

to be more diffident language in your brief

than what youre articulating today

MS SHAMET Well as Your Honor

pointed out T the language that you pointed to

in the brief is from the 2003 hearing before

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tr~e Rapanos case As the Board is avlare J he

EPP~ agreed and argued that the evidence to

satisfy Rapanos had not been fl11y developed

as of 2003 and this precisely why we

requested a remand

JUDGE SHEEHAN But youre cit i ng

it here filed long after Rapanos as if its

still your position

MS SHAME~ I cited a lot of other

evidence as lJell Your Honor incLuding the

testimory of Mr Rhodes he testi~cny of Dr

~fhigham and the testimony the f1Tther

estimony of Hr Mart So while that is a

piece of evidence it is certainly not the

only evidence cited in our brief

JUDGE WOLGAS~ ~o go back to the

point you were making earlier about how the -shy

in essence the three-part test is the same

type of evidence yo~ would look to to

establish sign~ficant nexus ard Justice

Kernedy did seer to speak to hat saying much

the sarre evidence I referring to tre Corps ssect

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delineation manual type evidence should

P8nnit the establishment of a significant

nexus witr navigable wates

particularly if supplemented by further

ev~dence abou~ the significance of the

tributaries to which the wetlands are

cO11ected How does the gove-nment interpret

the latter part of that quote

MS SILllltlECmiddot I think that the

government needs to show and has shown in

this case that there is an ability of those

trihttayies Co conect the wetlands to a

traditionally navigable water in such a way

that the poundtnctions are delivered In this case

we have certainly shown the hydrologic

cO1nect=-o1 some of respondents expe-ts have

agreed with us that that connection exists and

tha there is sufic8Ylt ~hat there is

water exchange there and weve also shown

that heres proxirrity here again these are

walking distance to traditionally navigable

waters this is not the Rapanos case where it

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traveled 32 miles So we think we have met

that burden here by sho~Jing the hydrologic

connection and showing that these tributaries

are capable of delivering the function With

respect to cr-edibi=-ity and he points that

Your HOlors asked of AS Wilcher I would just

point out tha~ lTudge lvlorans credibility

determination was based on demeanor and also

on the facts of this case An important fact

to note for insta11ce is in the firstF

r~earing in 2003 respondent I s soils exper

who laid a g=id fOJnc 53 ou 55 sarnples

hydric The only two that were non-hydric had

JUDGE STEIN I couldnt hear you

MS SHApoundT Had 53 Oelt of 55 soil

sa~ples he identified as hydric in the site

soEs or ei ther side In the secord heaocilg

Dr Pierce testified that there was

essentially non-hydric soils everywhere And

on cross-examination he was asked didn t youI

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find any hydric soils and he said oc yeah

I found them I just didnt click on my GS

locator and ider~tify where they were and I

just didn It report them He only reported the

non-hydric soEs That is the kind of thing

that happened that caused Jtdge l-loran 0 find

a lack of c-edibility vvlth respect to 9r

Straw Dr Straws expert report disc1ssed

undulations in the landscape that he

interpreted to mean ere were no wetlands

tlere On the sand he conceded trat there

were no u1dulaions on tr~e landscape -- he had

mis~nterpreted the aeria= photo More

importantly he conceded ~hat he knew about

ha t erroy before the hearing and leverf

corrected it until cross-exa~ination Judge

Moran had ample basis for finding no

credibility on those witnesses

JUDGE SEIN Is it your view tha~

the Board has no authority to overrale an

ALJs credibility determination

MS SHAl-1ET No YOJr Honor the

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Board reviews he case de novo lffuile the

Board certainly defer to the ALJ r s credibili ty

determination what I run saying that in this

case t~ere is no basis for overturn~~g it

JUDGE STEIl If we were to

overturn it -- a credibility determination

what kinds of factors r it your view s1ould 18

be taking into aCCo4nt

MS S~~~ET I would think you

oelld be looking to see whether or not the ALJ

has a rational basis oh gosh I hate to use

legal standards like that -- but some sort of

bass or hich he based his credibiliy

deerrtination that he explained why there was

a lack of credibility and I think in this

case he did so amply

JUDGE SHEEHAJ If Ms v~i 1 cher S

correct characterizing the way testimony

cedibclity went i soanced almost like a

hundred percent credit to government

witnesses and practically zero to

respondens witnesses f tratg acctrate

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jus stipulat-=-ng 0 trat assumption - - if

t~atfs accu~ate would that be a basis fer not

allcwing deerence to Jdge Morans

credibility determinations if its so

lopsided

ocs SH_~ET In this case I would

say no just simply because in this case we

have a classic battle of the experts I but

oddly enough the ba~~ling experts are al on

respondents side And )hat we have are

experts whD ~estif~ed in 2007 who flat

disagreed wit the testimony of respordent S

experts in 2003 without any atterrpt by the

2007 experts or respondents to reconcie

that testiITony Given that circumstance it sf

not surp-isirg that the experts in 2007 s

testimony were given very litte weight One

of the things that Hs ltJilcher referred 0 was

unfettered access to the site If anyone had

u~fettered access to the site~ it was

respondent and yet there are no photos in the

record showing the streaL~S leaving the site

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dry except during a drought

JUDGE VOLGAST But her point was

tha t the goverrunert ~as the bmiddoturden here

MS SHlHEI And the burden -- he

government has met the burden In fact in

this case the preponderance 0 the evidence

literally the only evidence other than

testirrony by the site owner testimony by

someone who walks around a three-hu1dred-acre

site hunting and looki1g for damage in che

fieds which lS what he estified he was

doing there and photographs taken during a

d--ought he oV9rtlhe=Iilg evidence is that the

waters do flow on a regular basis First of

all these waers have been napped the

waters leaving the site -- as flovving water by

USGS for hal f a century

JUDGE vIOLGAST Yo mentioned that

the waters flow on a regular basis Is that a

conir~uols bas~s

MS SHAMET We would say it would

be part of every year Your Honor

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JUDGE SHEEHAJ Tlen W1Y 18 that

necessarily continual The Scalia Test now

that veve 901e to continual flow is jilst

that -- there has to be continual flow He

says even the least significant of the lake

river ocealS or streams the four water

bodies the least significant steams has to

have COlticua you

repeatedly say - make other instances that

are to me a lot less cor~fdent t1~an what

Scalia seems to deilland You say page 31 the

drains flow at least part of every yeari page

35 at least SOme portion of every year at

least at least at least it comes up

repeated-ly in YOlr brief vlhich couid be just

one rain event So theres one rain at least

it flows one or two days after the rain aod

thats certainly a far cry I would argue

from continual So can you address the seeming

gap between your statemen~s and what Scalia

seems to demand as far as continual flow

~S SHk1ET Ie would state that

Your

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Justice Sca~ia described re1ativey permanent

wateYs He made pretty clear wrat teose were

He did~t require any specific n~~er of days

of flow -- what he did say was common sense

and common usage distinguished between a wash

and a seasoral river and tha f s in foot1ote

five respondent likes to use the term

intermitten~ a lot but the one thing it is

clear from footnote 5 is that Justice Scalia

does not give the term intermittent any

ocegulatoY import trJhy Because he

specifically decli~ed ~o define it

JUDGE SHEEHAN Why doesnt he give

it regulatory import when at least seven

tirres by ely count in his opinion he says

iEtermi tent waters do not cca11 fy as

jurisdictional -- he even calls it an oxymQron

ac one point

~S SHAMET Even though he does

not -- he declines ~o defihe it He says that

thee are defiritions 0 nterrnttent bu he

sees 10 reason to identify what tlose are

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here I and then he specifically says I We have

no occasion in this litigation to decide

exacty whe1 he cryirg up of a streambed is

continuous and frequent enough to disqualify

tle channel as a water 0 the Cnited States

~jUDGE SHEEI-IAN I know we can t -shy

aobody knows what intermitter~t meaJs with

aOsol~te rigor thas obviously subject to

interpretation But the fact is he

contlnmiddotually rejects intermitten~ waters

whatever that Ireans as jurisdictional a1d

you say intermittent doesnt matter I dont

know how yot can say lat in the face cf al

his statements that intermittent does w~tter

HS SHAMET I think the evidence

dernorstrates pretty clearly that ther-e is

regular flow on a regular basis in these

wateTs A good exaTIple

JUDGE SHEEH1ll~ Im not talking

about the eviderce 1lT talking about the

standard

MS SHAIjET The standard lS that

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there has to be a relatvely pe-mar_ent tvater

It cant be a wash it cant be someLhing that

flows only occasionally only in response co

a very strong rainfall i~ cant be a gutter

It has to be a geographic feature ~~d in this

case we have USGS mapping these as geographic

features conainng Vlaer for over ffty

years which if thatis not relatively

permanent I In not qui te sure what would be

JUDGE SHEEHAN C-ne1 how else - shy

why else -- why is it that you cannot muster

more behind your argument that these are

lowing dyains tha1 just saying at least part

of the year continually You never say its

continual you never say its relatively

permanert ane not interrrittert you seem to

stay away from saying that and it seems

purposeful because it happens so frequently

1 S SHAHET ~J e dont

over~exaggerate our evidence we say what it

is And in this case what we r re saying is Ie

agree hsse styeams dry up for part of ~he

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year VJe f ve never argued that these were

perennial streams because theyre not They

are streams that only flow for part of the

year But part of the year is good enough

1nder Jtstice Scalia f s test These are rot

washes theyre ~ot t ckles When they flow

t1ey flow As Jlldge Mo-an pointed out I the

record is replete wi th photos of these streams

flowing and floling wi th a good arnount ofI

water them Now for exanpJe -shy

JUDGE SHEEHlll Flowing at least

part of the year right

MS SHAME~ Flowirg at least part

of the year If I could get the photo up An

example is ~his series of photos~ if we can

get it up If not Ill jus give tre exhibit

numbers Not a perfect picture This photo was

taken in December 2006 As you can see

theres visible flow in the stream A1d this

is Complainants Exhibit 328 co~plai~ants

Ex-hibit 308 - sarre sreart same location you

can tell by the cross January 07 J still

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lt- Low~ng

JUDGE SHEElI1N ~Iha t does tha t

realy prove YOJ cOl-=d go out right after a

rain as apparently happenedi apparently Dr

Whigham went out afte rain irw 07 ard Judge

Moran noted that he was out two days after a

big rain so naturally the drains were full

DJ showing us occasiQral ~-

IS SHAlyenjET If you can show four

sraight lonths of floN f think youre

probaby doing pretty good This is O1e of

respondent I S exhibits This is Dr Straws

photo ta~er_ in February 2007 This s

Respondents Exhibit 57pp

JUDGE VJOLGASI I (IT sory 1 whose

testimony was ~his

MS SHAMET Dr Straws The other

~h~ng that is documeGted -- Im just going to

go ahead and give you April April 2007 still

flow This is Complainants Exhibit 391 and

just ia case were llorried about March e

dont have March 2007 we have March 2003

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JIDGE SHEEHAN What drain is that

MS SHAMET This is Complainants

Exhibit 102L

JUDGE SHEEHAN What drain

MS SHAMET This is the portion of

drait six- seven as it leaves the si-se

crosses unde~~ea~h the railroad tracks to che

west and leaves the site We would also noce

chat in che 2003 hearing it was established

ard Judge ChaYlJeski acc6ped ordinary hig

watermark for the duration of the streams

leaving the site from the time they leave the

site cntil the time they wa~king distance

away hit traditionally navigable waters Now

whIle Justice Scalia said that existence of an

ordinary high waternark in and of itself does

not estabJish jurisdicion it does remair a

fact on the ground that shows the preseTlce of

f~c~J O-1r b~ief did cite in a footnote a

number of cases that describe what an ordinary

high water mark means and what it basically

means is that theres water there on enoJgh

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of a regular basis that theres no

vegetation and Dr Straw in poirtig at that

photo 57pp poined out that there was an

ordinary high watermark there e believe that

we 1ave s~ovm t2lougt t~1at eviderce as well is

that theres a regularity of flow through

these water bodies tJi th respect to Ms

~iilcher f s suprise that EA did not issue a

cease and desist order we in fact did we

issued an admif~istrative order n 2000 I

doat have the record citatio~ with me bu~ I

believe it was testified to in the 2003

tearilg In addi tion tlith respec 0 YIs

Wilchers conunent that EPA knew about the

operation before it was completed and didnt

intervere ~rat is also not correct In Culy

of 1999 EPA contacted respondent and

requested a site visit A- that time the work

was not done l6 site visit was scheduled in

-- they did the scheduling In July and the

visit was schedJled in September and in

August respor~dent brought equipment to the

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site and finished it up to present EPA with a

fai t accompli Couple other points There I s

bee~ a ~w~er of debates i~ t~e b~ie= about

briefs about whether or not there are in

fact wetlands on the sice and whether or not

they extend all the way to the tributaries

First of all ~othi~g in Rapanos altered the

EEe~gy and Water Developmert Appropriations

Act of 1993 Public Law 102377 106 Statutory

at Large 1315 in which Congress directed the

Corps of Eng~leers to use t~e 1987 wetlands

delineation nanual until a replacement manual

was established the courts have

recognized deference to the Corpss 1987

manual as the agencys interpretation of its

OvT regulatiors That manual was applied in

this case That manual when applied in this

case identifies wetlands throughout the site

JUDGE SHEEHAN A~e these -- are

these wetlands these draircs are tl_ey fed by

a1Y other source than rain

MS SHAMET No Your Honor These

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wetlands are what are called the top of the

watershed and this is why water flows in two

directions off of this site -- it flows both

west and east because its at the top of the

watershed

JUDGE SHEEHAN So any water on the

site its all rain-fed

MS SHAMET Yes The seasonality

of it however I can be established through

testimony regarding how the plants on this

site interact with that precipitation And

that testimony discusses the relationship

between whats called leap out and

transpiration In other words when the leaves

are on the trees the trees are uptaking water

from the ground -- from the groundwater table

and the groundwater table decreases and

thats why you see lower levels of water in

the summer During the winter when the leaves

are off the trees the trees are not

transpiring yet -- the water table rises and

thats why these are seasonally flowing

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s~reams and seasoca~ systems

JUDGE SHEEHAN Is there any

testirtony in the record abott the frequency of

the rain If rain is it is the source is

rain something on this property that occurs

f if -y times a year I a hundred t iITes a year t

two ~ines a year

MS SHAME= YOur Honor the

2003 record I believe there was an exhibit

and I apologize that I canZt name the exhibit

number for you right now that idenifies what

a one year storm is f what a three year stOrIT

is~ and l-lha a five year storm is in that

county and I apologize that I cant come up

with the exhibit number for you right now

JUDGE SHEEHAN vlell whats your

recolecion about it irhat it says eve if we

dont know the exhibit right now 111 just

trying to get a bead on how -- whether its

typically dry or typically wet there With

rain

MS SHAI-fET Your Hono f I cant

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recall I believe its under a~ inch -- around

a~ inch bu~ ca~t say foy su~e I look at

a lot of these for a let opound dipoundfeent areas

and I don~t want to get one mixed up with the

other

JUDGE ~]OGAST vTose testimony

we6 you reerrlg to gtThen you were discusslg

seasonality

MS SHAMET That was testimony of

Mr Martin It is at Remand Transcript 1912

~~d Rema~d Transcript 354

JUDGE STEI f he Board we~e to

conclude tha the evidence in this case meets

the Kennedy est is it necessary for theI

Board to consider whether the evidence meets

the plurality test

18 8HAMET Its the posiio1 of

EPA hat satisfying either test will establish

geographic jurisdiction under the Clean Water

Act As the Board noted all courts that have

so held have held tha~ if one meets re

Kennedy Tests then t~ats satised Ir

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a~swer actually to one of your questions I

1think Judge Steir there is one case It S an

unreported case out of the District of Hawaii

that has held that the Kennedy Test is lircited

to isolated waters and hat Y0l otherwise

apply to Scalia Test and that is Sierra vs

COJ1ty of Honolulu 2008 us Distcict EX=S

64262 1 and we would just note that that case

is inconsistent with the governing circuit

lali ts tle 9h Circuit and we believe its

inconsistent with Headlesburg and Moses but

you did ask lthether there was any case that

discussed he Sca=--~a test and that is the

only one at least Im aware of To answer

your question we believe t11at satisfying the

Kennedy Iest wOll-~d be sufficient and it would

not be necessary to reach the Scalia Test i

however we do beLeve thas weve satisfied

boh in this case and that ei ther test will do

it All through

JUDGE SHEEHAN Can you poi~t us iL

the record to what may not be a gap but it

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looks like a bit of a gap at least from the

briefs There I s a lot of testimony -- a lot of

discussion in your brief about the history

the history on the site water on the site

for exa~pe a 1953 p~cto s~ows di~ch O~e had

water I a 1937 photo one two and four had

water 1920 f USGS map had five -- ditch five

had water And then so we leap from sixty f

seventy years ago to the present decade

oegirning in 1999 middotJ~el a buner of inspectio1B

occurred mainly in 99 I and there was some

hopscotching and then they e~ded in 2007 So

he~e --- at least from the bries treres a

fairly big gap between the very very historic

taps and photos I and then ~he 1999-on

inspections and That they showed What about

the intervening

HS SHlIiCET - believe tha~ we also

discussed the USGS maps in 1994 which were

the most recent maps prior to activity As

YOUY HO1ort s aware from the Boards decisio1

in Bricks its inCUInbent upon us to show what

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the wates Jere lLlte before the activity f not

after the activity

JUDGE SHEE~~ Right bue the

before here is well before Thats my

~estion I dont see much except for that 94

map

MS SHAMET 1Ind we also used

aeria photography from 1994 and 1995 to

suppla--nent rphere I S been nO evidence in the

record that anything changed between 1994 and

1995 and the acivity in question which

started in I believe December of 98 or

Jaluary cf 1999 Ane I believe responcerts

agreed on the western side of the site in

their expert reper that the configuration

has been co~sistent si~ce 1949 up until the

time of the activity If there are any further

quest iors I woud jus smnnarize again by

pointing out that the facts this case are

veoy very siltple Ttese are wetlands theyre

clearly docJmented as wetlands the

preponderance of the evidence established the~

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as wetlands The preponderance of evidence -shy

tle overwhelming preponderance of the evidence

established that Chese wetlands are

performing actual documented functions The

very significant nexlJS that Justice Kennedy

described in h~s opinion The evidence in this

case shows that these wetlands are physically

adjacent to tributaries These are ditches

they are rranmade bu~ wo~d ~ust note that

iJ Ra9a~os itself the ditches were manmade

and no justices voted about that They flow

waking dista1ce to tradi tionally r~avigable

waters and 7hey are jllrisdictional Thank

you

MS v-JILCHER May it please the

cOJgt IrJClnt to t~lank couJsel for -aising the

tabletop analogy necause I forgot to This is

at a divide It is twenty feet above sea

level It 8 a watersted divde lke he

cortinental divide such hat water is flowirg

away it is not at the bottom of anything It

is nQ a marsh it is EDt a bog it is Lot a

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swarrcp i1-is is ar~ area where there is no

abili ty for the fJetland to capture and keep

pollutants out of a Y1avigable water because it

lrsef is a the very head of the watershed

And so trying 0 -- f you Jere able to be

there and see that~ you woald understand that

its not got the same type of functions and

values as some area ad) aca1t to below I

cach1g f pYEvertng po=-l-ltion cori1g frou a

10 of upstream areas While thats not

parricularly significant

JUDGE SHEEHIlll Havent yo just

helped ma~e te argumelOt that with gravity

lorking as it 60es any discharge of a

po1hltant up high wotld have made its way dOlJID

low f to a navigable water

MS WILCHER Yes so this is not

a rrounanols area fh=-s is a very slight

slope 11 fact to the naked eye it s almostt

hard to see a slope

JUDGE SHEEHAN Why does flow

matter as significant ~exus goes

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HS VrJCHER We11 the amount of

rur~offf qJie fr-ankly r~at would occur can

matte w~th regacd to that I do want 0

address a few absolutely incorrect things that

were stated and a couple misconceptions Let

me start with the mischaracterization of the

axpert witnesses that were hired in 2007

There seems to be some attempt to imply that

hiri1g differe1t expert witnesses to deal with

wtether this is ju-iscicto1al under Rapanos

is the same as having expert witnesses to

testify whether or not this area met the

former -- the actual definition of a wetland

Theyre two different things You can have a

wetland and it ca1 still not be

jClrisd~ctional So itS our hope that the

Board doesnt misconstrue that to say that by

hiring different fgtxperts you were trying to

get a different result which was not the case

-- its simply that if youre looking at how

much flow what the funcions of values ar-e

its a very differert thing fran sorteone who

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caL go ou~ a~d do the soil samples to

determine whats hydric and whats not

Seco~d jus~ as with regard to the

credibility of the witnesses just as there

were some -- a case perhaps whee ac-I expert

witness misstated something or changed its

rnird 1 so did some of the government I s expert

wi tnesses misstate something that then had to

be co-ected So did the brief that said

that took the word and and changed it to

Or witr regard to what Justice Kennedy hadI

written So I dont think that that in and of

itself has any significarce wi th regard to the

credibility of a witness tihen we are talking

abcu lGVJ fa this land is from a navigable

water counsel has mentioned that it S 2600I I

feet middotrhich is about half a mile or 4200

feet which is close to a mile -- thats not

to reac-t a navigabe water Let us be clear

That is to reach something that is not

necessarily an intermittent area4 EPA

stipulated l the stipulations dated

NEAL R GROSS COURT AEPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

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Septewer 8th 03 that the water body

depicted and ]i5 is nurrbers 37 and 38 that

the water bodies depicted as these drainage

ditches on the site are depicted by the USGS

topa rEap at the 3allary Hill (Phonetic)

quadrangle as a broken blue line and that a

broken bae line denotes an irtermi ttent

stream These are intermittent streams ard as

Justice Sheehan has correctly noted Judge

Scalia says n mary circ1JIstarces that

intermittent streams are not jurisdictional

waters of the U S HmAever if we tun to irlhat

Custice Kennedy says thats rhece we kind of

get into the eitheror what we also find

there is a great discussion by Justice Kennedy

loiClself on 1e Ccrps definition of a

tributary Counsel was referring to the

drainage ditches as t-ibutaries ard Justice

Kennedy makes it c~ear that the corps

definition of tributary that was in effect at

tr~e time this decision was -rritter middotJsing he

high watermark was not appropriate I and would

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

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lead in fact to too broad a definition of what

was jurisdictional i~ and of itsef under the

Clean Water Act And theres we dont have

time to read it all but Im sure youve

probably ead it more tirres t~an have

aryay iled also jtst lke to mention tha

qui te frankly the evidence that has been

introduced in this case is the type of

evidence the Cour was r~opng would not be

Csedo prove jurisdictior on such an

important issue and that is its speculative

Its not -- were not arguing that wetlands

arent irrportart J we arent arguing that

wetlands aralt valuabe anc you know in

1990 wed say regulate because we had the

legal authority to do so This again is one

of tlese cases t1at sirrply wishing that 1_e

Q C d h dfe I~upreree o~r~ naa sal some ~~g 1 ~eren~ y

does not make it so This is what the Court

said -- thats the final word on the mater

whatever we decide ~t is bu it S tre firai

word and we c~~t change that regardless ofl

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRA-SCRIBERS

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how mportant or ho wrong someone may think

that it auld be To other quick points to

mention and that is EPA knew about this work

that was going on in February of 1999 and

that is in Jeff Lapps testimony tn Volume 1

page 167 through 169 so EA did kno Most of

t~e woyk was completed by Aprii or May of that

year before EPA every CaIne out to the site

and it wasnt until 2000 chat a notice of

violation was issued

JUDGE SHEEHamp1 So why does that

matte- That is an enforcement choice EPA makes

every day of the week and its not part of

the record i~ has nothing to do with whether

or not the Kennedy or Scalia or any other test

was met It really doesnt seem to bear on the

legal issues here

11S vIILCHER Fair enough For

purpose of ~his arg~~e~tl for t~e pur~ose of

today youre probaDly right J-luge But i~

does matcer if were talking about typical

practice of EPA and while Im well aware that

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202) 234middot4433 WASHINGTON DC 20005middot3701 wwwooalrgrO$$oom

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theres no requirement to take an enforcemer-t

action in a1ything less trar this period of

statute of limitations if in fact this was as

egregious and as violative and as problematic

as counsel appears to make it seem then EPA

did have every opportlli~ity to stOy that and

in ITany many cases vlhen EP1 sees a clear

violation of the law I they simply issues a

cease and desist order and in a case like

Rapanos in the Rapacos case you have people

who are going out anc taking action and

violating the wetlands law after theyve

received many state and federal cease and

desis orders so the facts of this case are

so di==ere~t from the facts of tha~ case Here

we have someone who was trying to comply with

the law as it was written at the time in my

view he was complying with the law as it was

wri ten at tlat time actG the fact tha EPA

didnt like ~he way the law was written and

what it said and what the courts were

deciding does not give hem authority to come

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

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in and regulate after the fact

JUDGE WOLGAST Counsel thank you

youre Olt of if you could make your

final point n just r~e next thirty secords J

I think you saie you had two I may be

mistaken

MS WILCHER Thank you Well we

are talkirg about jurisdictio1 I do think

tha tte overall =-ssJe of equity cotes i1to

play Ar~d knowing -- even krowing what the

jurisdiction was at the time of the activities

undertaken is really kind of an unc I Qar

matter Were still struggling with what

j Clrisdict iOI is Re9rettably toat s always

been t~e problem with this program

problem Igtli th this progral7l is that Corgress did

not give us clear direction and clear guidance

to either EPA or to the Boyds or to anyone

else in the regulative corrmlUnity and I t-hink

that s a factor certainly that the court Iblil

consider ard should corsder I when making a

decision on issues of liability and in this

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND tRANSCRIBERS

~323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW i202 234-4433 WASHINGTON DC roooS-3701 WWWlI$alrgmssOOffl

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case we would ask that you do so Thank you

J1DGE voLGAST Thank YOJ Cours

thank yOJ for your arguUent and the case is

now submitted

MS DURR All rise Session of the

Environmenta Appeals Board nmv stands

adjourned

(Whereupon the above-entitled

matter was concluded at 11 16 am)

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON DC 20005-3701 wwwnealrgrossoom

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Page 81

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Page 82

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Page 83

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CERTIFICATE

This lS to certify tha~ ~he foregoi~g transcript

in the matter of Snith Farm 3nterprises ILC

Hon Anna Wolgast E-wironmenta Appeals Judge

Date Jaly 20 2010

Flace Washingson DC

represens the ful and complete proceedings of the

aforementio1cd marter as reported and reduced to

typewriting

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCR8ERS

1323 rOOE iSLAND AVE_ NW (202 234-4433 WASHtGON DC 20005-3701 fNWnnalrqft)6Scom

Page 6: BEFORE THE ENVIRONMENTAL APPEALS BOARD IN ... By...MS. DURR: Environmental Appeals Board of the U~ited States Environmental Protec~ion Agency is now in session for oral argument, in

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or ~92 or 93 ween I was at tt8 Agency and

dealing with iss~es when then the only thing

that was necessary for the Agency to prove was

that there were waters of ~he United Sta~es

ncluding wetlands that is lands that vere

inundated or satura~ed by surface or ground

water s~ch that ~hey could and ordinarily did

support a prevalence for vegetation typically

adapted to life in saturated soil conditions

We always referred on the Riverside Bayview

case and extended the adjacency of the

wetlands to a navigable water beyond that

such tha any tine thac there were wetla~ds

that they were conside-ed to be

jlrisdictiol1al ard eniorcemalt actior~ woud

have been considered proper

In the Rapanos Case the court

talks abo~t the expanding jurisdiction by the

Corps of Engi~eers and cetainly by

extension to EPA when in many of those

circumstances EPA was pushing the Corps to

expa1d their jurisdiction And the court

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AO TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE Nw 2(2) 234middot4433 WASHINGTON 00 20005middot3701 WWWllealrgrC$$OO((

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po s out that tneuro Corps adopted increasingly

broad interpretations of its own regulations

Talked about the migratory bird rule It

talked about how the Corps rad exparded ~ts

own interpretations of the definition of

tributaries to include ephemeral streams ard

c~ose that ran ~hrough drainage Qitc~es And

then the plurality opinion goes on to clarify

that that type of regulation was never

intended to be covered by the Clean raer Act

as waters of the U S SOIDe of the key

JUDGE STEIN Ms Wilcher

JiS ~TIL-CrER Yes

JVDGE STEIN Has any court held

that the plurality test alone determines

jurisdiction

ItS WILCHER I do not believe

that any court has held that the plurality

test alo~e confers jurisdiction

JUDGE STEIN Okay

MS 11 I LCHER I assume that the

court wants to hear about that since it is an

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202) 23~4433 WASHINGTON DC 20005lt)701 wwwnealrgrosscom

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impotant part of the decision AQd we can

talk about significant nexus next I if thatS

okay or if you wart me to go to significant

nexus now I be happy to do that

JUDGE STE=N No thats fine you

car talk about the pluralities first but le~

me ask you if we were to find that the

eviQe~ce met as J~dge Xoran oQ~6 the

significant nexus test but for whatever

reason it didnt meet the plura~ities test l

L1en vhat is middotJ~e OJtcorneuro

MS WILCHER Now thats a very

and no one knows In the Fourth Circuit

specifically what the outcome of that -- what

the outcome would De The Rapanos test

unfortunately in an effort to reign in

jurisdicion by the Corps and EPA created

probably as many questions as it did answer

and its created a lot additional

lit~gation So we I re here synpatretic 0

EPAS plight of having to try to figure out

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISlAND AVE NW (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON DC 20005lt701 wwwnoolr9f05Sc(JITl

------- --

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what that meanS l a~d the regulated community

also rying 0 figure oat what it means

becalse it is simply not clear The Marks case

that said that you would select the nost

Earow of the interpretations n a case such

as this might be difficult to apply because

it S hard to figure out itlhat the most 1arrowI

cefinition or application of this case would

be Obviously from Smith Farms standpoint

we would be really delighted shou~d =h~s board

decide to follow the Ilarks opinion and decide

that the Scalia test would be the most

appropiae here bJt vere perfecty preparedl

to address both

JUDGE WOLGAST B~t that is -- but

yot-e assuning trat the narrowest grounds

would then be the pluralities test as opposed

to say I the narrowest ground sin-ply being

tha hey rejeced the Rapanos evicence ald

remanded the case In terms of what -- what

five justices could agree to It Jas simply

ocemand

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1323 RHODE ISlAND AVE NW Z02 24-4433 WASHINGTON DC 20005-37)1 WflW J10slrgrosscom

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MS rLCHER rgthat f S rigrLt Thats

right But i s presumed trat the CO-clrt s

reasoni1g ar~d the four -- the opinion of the

four written by Scalia the opinion of

Roberts the opinion of Justice Kennedy all

rreant sameL-hing J and hat is what we are left

to vlork within and -shy

TUDGE SHEEHAN What do you think

cf the governme~ts argument trat either test

can apply as the First and Eighth Circuits

have held

MS WI~CHER well clearly a

nillnber of circuits have held that either test

Itould apply f ard in this case we we

believe that the evidence despicB what the

ALJs have found we believe the evidence

clea~ly shows that under neither test would

this area considered to be jurisdictional

~nder the curre~t interpretatio~ of the Clean

Water Act u~der Rapanos

And I really do think chat

not wanting to lose the forest for the trees

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRA1SCAIBER3

1323 RHODE jSlAND AVE NW (202) 2344433 WASHINGTON DC 20005-370~

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here the forest -- the big picture is thatI

Rapanos is a dramatic shift in the way

busir~ess as usual has been done aL these

agencies from 1972 ~ntil 2006 It is -shy

in 2001 you had a little deviation here but

its a ilge dfference and what we find in

the brief -- and what we find in the brief of

t1e govermnent in this case is lot much of a

differerce from how the law previously lttas

interpreted and Ill -- Ill just go ahead

aYld address thae ssae and that is that the

the strongest argument it appears that

he government nakes in its brief dealing

with the significant nexus test is that

wetlands are ~rrponart ~1etlards provide

valuable functions and even Rapanos case

notes that the Clean V~ater Ac has been very

important and serves an important public

interests and Section 404 and the wetla~ds

laws i-l particuar provide ar~ irportant public

interest

JUDGE SHE1 Vie11 i 81 c the

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPOATEFlB AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE fW (2ltJ2) 2344433 WASHINGTON DC 2ltlOOSr01 wwwnoalrgrosscorn

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governments argument that these wetlands I in

particua are important I and can you address

how these wetlands do or do not meet the

Kennedy significant nexus test

fiS WILCHER That woud be t1e

goverlli~ents argument but in this case they

have failed cO co inCroduce by a

preponderance of the evidence ~hat that is

the case

JUJGE WOLGAST Coud you describe

for us what you ~elieve the goverr~ent would

have to show at a minimum to meet Justine

Kernedys significant nexus test in this

context

MS ~iILCHER At a mini~um they

wotd have to show some measure of the effec

that would be had by this wetlands property

upor~ a navigable vater of the Uni ed States

and they have not done so ln ary regard

JUDGE SHEEHIN Wasnt there

abunda1t testimony says the gDve=runent by

expert i1itness Martin and others that there

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was such a C oILleci en YOJ f re speakirg very

theoretically Id like if you could to get

specific about what you think the failu~es are

i~ the governments case on the Kennedy test

MS ~VIrJCHER Yes but if you -shy

+_--ne if you look at the gover1TIleuroEt s

argument one of their lengthy arguments is

about the impact 0 denitrification that

VJetlands provide an important deni trification

iss~eJ pointing out that the Chesapeake Bay

tas too rruch nityogen and tbat its important

to keep that out They talk about the fact

that n~toger coues from atrrosphe-ic

deposition They talk about the fact that

microbes in the soil vi22 break hat rtroger

down and then they talk about that once the

nitrogen is broken dmvr it ll be taken up by

the breeze and i If~ay even be given off again

into -- into the air

JDGE STEIN ltJasn f t there

plentiful testimony by government witnesses

and the companys witnesses as to what was

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occurr~ng specifically at this site I mean

I think the challenge for the compa~y i~ this

appeal 8 that there were credibili ty findings

Chat tiere made by the ALJ as to some of the

testimony by respondents by the companys

wi tnesses and given the Board f 5 standard forJ

crecibility determinations where the 30ard

you knovl historically ove many mar~y years

gives great weight to an ALJ~s finding how is

it ha t we can ove look he ALJ S credibi lity

determinations in the face of countervai~ing

evidence ~hat the ALJ found ~o be credible

(S WILCHER Judge Stel if I

can finish Judge Sheehans question I III ge

right back 0 you on that You were wanting

some specifics and an example of what the

government tried to prove in its case By

go~ng through this whole denitrification

process they nake ~o distinction betwee~ the

value that ris particalar wetlald is making

or any paricular wetland is making I to the

denitrification 0 the Chesapeake Bay

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JUDGE SHEEHAN But the Kennedy

tea says that if wetlands aloLe or in

combination with other wetlands have that

kind of effect

115 WILCHER Wetlands alone or in

corrbinato1 with otrer wetlands or in

combination lith the uplands the arguments

~ha t tbey ace laking wOClld apply equally to

uplands and as the court noted in the Rapanos

decision applying some of these tests as the

government histori cally has applied them to

say that they are jurisdictional sirrply

because hey have value and may be somewhat

miles aay hut may have some connection or

some val~e ~i~es away being speculative in

nature does rot cause it to be

jurisdictional and it sa~d i~ so the en~ire

United States would be considered regulated

llilder tbe Clear~ ater Act

JUDGE SHEEHAN Theres ~~ theres

one and cot to get in the vay of Judge

Steins question but Qne of the exhibitsr

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Remand Exhibit 937 shows a very honeycombed

tissue through the Srith Farm weta1ds going

ou~ to the two rivers and then to the bay I~

looks sure _ surely to me it looks from this

exhibit and otes as if tl1e wetlands are very

proximate to and affect directly the waters

below Car you address that

KS WILCE2R I wil Those naps

do not show any actual measurable connection

nor do they show a contir1oJS surface

conE6ction r~avigable vrates

JUDGE SHEEHAN Why does it have to

be a surface connection tilly car_ t it be stbshy

surface if theres a hydrological link

MS WILCHER But theres ~o

showir~g of a silD-surface hydroogica liak

either Theres a total lack of evidence of

probative dence i~ th~s case to actualy

tie that paricu=-ar vletland Co a rcavigable

water which by the way you would have to gor

fcom tha wetland to a drair~age ditcr~ anc

went out there and traipsed down the site

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before I came here to talk to you about this

but youd have to go fr~~ that -- b~t this ~s

all en the record -- YOlld have to go fron

that area that might be-- that part of it that

might be considered a we~land~ through

drainage di tches t1at are only inerrrit ert

in nature and t1e evidef~ce is clear that

theYre only intermittent in nature including

the USGS blue line dotted lines and then they

would have to go from tlere to Bailey Creek

non- navigable to Drurr Point Creek

non-navigable] then to tributaries of the

westeGl branch of the Elizabeth River I which

is t~e f rst tne you I d hi a ~avigable wate

If go in the opposite

direction they would have to go from drainage

ditches to Quake~ Neck Creek to ~eans Bra~ch

which are tributaries 0 tne ravigable water

the Nansemond River 14d so there there is

no proof that there is a connection

Things could lave been done Tne-e

cOmiddotJld have been dye raclgs there cOlld have

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been a~l kinds of evidence hey could have

taken samples they could have done

quantitative analysis There is no chemical

evidence there is no physical evidence there

is no biological evidence that connecs this

to a navigable water f and therein lies the

problem

JJDGE TO~GAST Justa if I

could follow up on that before we get back to

cred~bility iss~es

MS HLCHER Okay

JUDGE WOLGAST Are you saying that

the fact they floTlI throJgh ditches is a

jurisdictional problem

MS 1tILCHER Not particularly

JUXE vIOLGASI And the1 get ~ ing

back to the testimony that Judge Sheehan was

referring to where JIdge Morar was referring

to the testimony of Mr Rhodes and Mr Martin

that the property provides flood storage flow

moderaion carbOIl sequestration vlater

purification denitrification what I want to

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undsystard aboJt your argument 1s are these

aspects insufficient or would they be

sufficient if in your mind there was more

evidence of the connection of these attributes

to the Nansemond or Elizabeth Rivers

MS iILCHER EPA -- the govenment

cant simply say that wetlands are valuable

because they are-- help prevent flooding and

not show that they would help prevent flooding

in this particular case and that it would

significantly help prevent flooding in t~is

partcular case lrJha ttey have done toe

Drie is to siIply lay down he well-knoJl

attributes a~d valuable functions and values

of wetlands and said therefore this is

having a significant effect on navigable

~ivers Theye is not a co~~ection they have

lot snoltm by a1y credible evidence cause and

effect of any sigrifcant iIEpact tpon thef

navigable rivers

JUDGE SHEEHAN But you make

again a very theoretical argument about the

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fact Chat the goverruuent just argues wetlands

fgelerally but werer t government wi tnesses

crawling allover this property mul iple

times testify~ng at great lengtl lots of

exhibits aerials historc maps and

everythi~g else to show in this case fo~ this

property there was trat link Its hard to

believe with all that 11Bssive Estimony and

getting to ~he credibility issue that he

governrrent doesn~t have a pretty solid case

rat hat nexus sat) sfyilg the Kennedy test

exists

MS WILCHER It is hard to

believe I totally agree It is hard to

believe Tle governmert has had unfettered

aCCess to this property for over a decade and

have failed 0 develop flmr drainage elements

they cant show how illuch flows off the site

they cant show vhat type of sediment runoff

might have occurred at ~he site ~hey ca~tt

show what type of water retention is teld Jy

the site t~ey have been unable to show any

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ecoogical cC1nection 1tith regard to wildlife

there was a Woodcock seen on the site There

is absolutely -- and its amazing to me hat

tr~ere is a void

JUDGE STEIN But isnt the test a

nexus a significant nexus not this

sJbstantial inpacts est that I hear wove]

through some of your statements and T dont

-- when I go back and I look at the Kennedy

opinion you knot] and some of he hings t1at

are cited I dont necessarily see that that

test requires the level of proof that youre

stggesing is reqJired ny hat test So

perhaps you could explain to me based on the

Kennedy opinion how you get from there to the

level of proof Lhat you re a5~ing for f just to

establish jurisdiction

MS WILCHER Certainly

JUDGE STEIN I mean I we re not

here to determire you know penalty or

anything else were here just to figure out

if youre even i~ tbe door

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MS IILCHER Yes understand

Ie 1 1 what Justice Kennedy said was to talk

abmlt he fJay the Corps nac typically

regulated wetlalds and then to say absent

more speciic regulations however the Corps

must establish a significant nexus on a case

by case bBSS wler it seeks to regulate

wetlands based on adjacency to non-navigable

tributaries and then it goes on to say given

the potential over breath of the Corps yen s

regulations this showing is necessary to

avoid unreasoDable applications of the

statute

The justice wrote I no~ just a

~exus if the COurt had only said there has to

be a nexus then o~e would have a different

burden of proof in this case the court said

a significant nexus and we have to assnne

that a significant nexus is meaningful that

those words mean SOIEethi1g So theres a -- at

least a two-step process One to show that

theres a nexus and the other is to show that

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its significant and that is what the record

is devoid 0 in this particular case

JUDGE SlEIN But its not a

significa1t impact its a significant nexus

MS iILCHER Thats right a

significant nexus And the sigrificart rexus

must -- and if YOu read through the rest of

the case it talks abolt hm -- that in order

to regulate land as water there must be some

type of impact on the water

JUDGE SHEEHAN Justice Kennedy

also uses a phrase that think is pertinent

here r he says that the how -- how the proof is

determined has to be done in a practical way

ard i almost sounds as if what you I re

requiing is that the governrrent set up flow

meers or pour a vial of discharge into a

ditch and see if it eventually ends up in the

Chesapeake or do something on a very

impractical scale to prove ~he connectio~

MS WILCHER You know this is a

really important issue The governrrent has to

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do sOIething oJer than to make allegations r

especially in a case where youpoundre dealing with

constitutional issues such as privae property

rights and how one car jse his own property

or hers and in this case I there are lots of

things tha~ EPA historically has done for

ypcal NPDES cases But when you before he

Board on a NPDES case theres at least some

measure If they had had pictures that there

las a plurne comir_g off of this wetlar~d if

theyd done any flow calculations if theyd

had any physical chemical biological

evidence of a nexJS and a signiican- nexus to

the navigable waters which again( are not the

ditches they are the ditches that flow to the

creek that flow 0 the creek that flow 0 the

navigable waters j then it would be a different

case but that is not what has happened in

this case

JUDGE IJOLGAST Well as you say

the goverIl1lent obviously has the burden of

proof i~ a~ eLfo~cerne~t case l but is this the

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same type of evidence that you thirk a

_a~Qowne~ should Lndertake I mean obviouslY

they have the burden to obtain a permit where

there is potential jurisdiction

I~S ~JILCaER Btt if the person

doesnt obtain a permit ~~ and the government

thinks that theyre i~ error again the

government always has the burden of proof

JUDGE vJOLGAST Right but J 1m

talking about getting a -- yOJ know starding

in the landowners shoes before weve ever

gotten to an enforceme1t case it -- it I

mean I ~h~nk theres some iSS48 with getting

back to the Supreme Court case that one of

he things that were concerned about - at

least lJustice Scalia pointed to was how much

evidence time money it takes to vJOrk

thro~gh ~h~s process and it sou~ds like the

yeLl know r the advocacy here is that there

should be more not less

)15 ~JLC1ER There stou1d be

something dore by the government in thi s

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regayd to actually prove a nexus and a

sgnificant nexus ard in this ease I canr

assuye you Judge Wolgast that the l~downer

has go~e above and beyond the oall of duty

going to the Corps time after ti~e having the

Corps ou to tr~e site and having spent talk

about the time and money and investmert having

his case as understand it having spent

over $800 000 in litiga~ion costs to try to

pr-otect what was legal at tl~e time that it was

aone and so -- so there is a burden

The governme1t has the burden aid

in this case in this par~icular case they

failed to meel it I don I t know why I haven [t

been involved that lor~g ~ would speculate

tl1at by the time he Rapanos case cane along

it V~as jlSt too hard to go back and find the

type of probative evidence that would carry

the cay_

I do not necessaily thirk that

its an impossible tas~ There have been ot~er

cases that ve reviewed aihere the goverrUent

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has irtroduced evidence of the poundows tr~e

amount of drainage that has occurred how much

water might be taken up by a wetland area$ but

none of that was done in thi s particular case

and again we can only speculated why that

was the case

JDDGE STIN How does tr_s S~xth

Circuit decision in the Cundl f f matter bear on

your view that the -- you need some sort of

laboratocy araysis to prove h~s7

MS ~VILCHER in that

particular easel you dont have as I ~ecall

the -- the disarce roIT a navigable waer

tha t we have here [ and I think the farther you

are away from a navigable water the harder it

is 0 prove tha~ theres any impact on that

navigable water and in this -- again in this

case they are far away from a navigable

water and I think toe reaSC1 tha~ we don

see the p=oof is because its not there itS

not developable and that is why it is not

Cere Did yOl wart De to ~~

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JUDGE STEIN I do wact you to get

the credibility question

MS bull WILCHER I dian t t want to

forget your - shy

JUDGE STEIN No while we we~e on

this topic why cor t t yOJ addres s the

credibility question

MS vILCHER I think its an

important question IC t S a real important

question and that is simply that s even though

the regtllatior~s do provide that typicaily when

the ALJ hears the witnesses and makes

determinations 0 ~~eir credib~~ity that

typically this Board will defer to that

However in this case a carefctl review of the

record shows that the ALJs just got it wrong

and it is within this Boards prerogative to

look at the -- look at t1e factors tha

that the ALJs used in making their

deterninatior and make a judgreJt aboJt

wl1ether those factors are sufficient

A couple of examples There was a

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mar who had Iived OT the farm for h~rty years

who testified that he I d walked over the farm

for thir~y years and testified that in fact

Ithe streams J or the drainage di tches were

intermittent in nature and did not carry water

I - 1 h d - a11 th e trre bull e __ t e JU ge ~n tHe QeClS10n

said well I think hes a nice man I think

hes beholden to the Smi ths f and he was just

Ollt or a wa so totally just discounted his

testimony saying he WBS just out on a walkJ

as if that meant t~at somebodywQuldnt no~ice

DGE ~vOGAST ~ Are yot saying

though that it would have to carry water all

tre time

MS vHLCHER No no But but

it f s clearly -- is Eot a navigable water lor

it is adjacent nor is the wetland adjacent to

a navigable water in this case It flows

anything t~at =lows opound= of t~at a~ea that has

been considered to be wetland by the

goverr-Uent flows -rxough drainage ditches

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that are only intermittent in nature and

~herefore are ~ot co~sidered to be navigable

watsYs clea~ly urder the Rapanos decison

JUDGE SHEEHAN But if the man

walking the land said that they were

intermittent and youre saying intermittent

doesnt matter

I~S IgtlILCHER Were saying that -shy

Judge Cha~eski as I recall said tha~ there

was a c01tinuOU5 flow of 5088 kind isnt that

-- d~~lt J~dge Char~eski say that

WOLGAST lrJell Justice

Scalia said that even after that -shy

HS WILCHER Right right

JUDGE WOLGASl That that

seasonal flow could establish jurisdiction

~nder the pluralitoes test

148 t-JILCEER BJt there s not beenj

seascnal flow established -=-n this case Yot

have somebody going out there en particular

days after these ditches have been dug which

we all know alter the flow in drainage after

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the eLi tches are dug ftJaer goes to the lowest

level and so theres going to be more water

draining OU= of there t~a~ ~here would have

been in 1998 and 1999 and that -- that is

clear ~tat ~tere is no ev~de~ce ac the time

this was done they were -- they were anything

but inerYlitten and here l s no j1risdictiola1

connection that they have proven to date

JUDGE ~JOLGAST And what do you

think they would have had to have shown to

show seasonal flow

MS ~IILCHER Well they could

have done something more than go out there

nine times over tbe course of a year rrhey

could have had aerial photographs taken Ihey

cod have -- weil first yOl have the uSGS -shy

you have the USGS maps as showing its

inteYrnittent and theres lierally no

testimony en the record right now to show that

theyre anything but interrrdtent Ot-her than

to say that if somebody goes out there ~ine

Cimes and looks at the flow and sees water

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then -- agair~1 keeping ir mind this was years

atel 1_8 dainage d=- tches tver-e dtg ha t were

channeling more water into the old one through

seven drainage areas there B nothing tof

establish what was the~e at ~he time in 1998

a~d 1999

JUDGE VlOLG~rST And I think

isnt this what courts are struggling with in

the sense that its -- its one thing to say

~ts ~~ter~itte~tf b~t is that good enough I

mean I dont you have to figure out just how

much flow in you know what period of time

or the idea that -- I dont -- if someoae

says t~at its intermitte~t Irr not sure that

means its ir~ or out without further evidence

MS WILCHER Right Well that

shows really the that shows arguably a

cQnYlecion Bu how rrlcr =ow is going through

there whether sediment loading is going

through there whether theres an ecological

connection through there all these whethers

lead to whether t~e~e is a sig~ificant nex~s

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to a navigable water and if you look at some

of the other cases ~here has been that kiLd of

information introduced and in this case there

is none

JUDGE vJOLG1ST hhat case are you

thinking of

MS vJILCiER I thirki1g maybe

t was the Precon case ir - - in the Eastern

District of Virginia Its on appeal in the

Fourth Circuit I may r~ve been ~hat BJt

I 11 be happy to provide some cases -- a case

or cases later on that show the type of

evidence that tas been introdJced because I

remember reading about them and cant think of

the name right now

TlDGE SHEEIiAN I Vant to go back

for a moment to Judge Stein J s question about

credibility

gtIS CLCHER YOS

JUDGE SHEEHAN So ALJ Moran sat

through days and days of testimony on the

bench a lot of pecple ~n ~~at witness chair

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Hes there hes on he scere hes

~nterpreting the way the witnesses speak and

their basic credibility which you can only do

face to face in that way Wha~ is it about

what happened there that causes you to think

theres sOne way or some reason for as not to

credit the typ~cal deferehce we would extend

There must be some exception here that we ~eed

0 know about for that to happen

MS WLCHER tAJel1 r ard there are

a few facts that I think would be relevant to

your consideration in that case In the first

instance some of these wi~nesses that the ALJ

deter~ined were not credible --Jere stipJlated

as being expert vtitnesses and hat shows at

least sorre level of credibility in the mind of

the government w th regaro to whetJ~er they

were experts in the field

Second some of the criticisms

in one case a criticism that an ALJ made of an

expert wi tness was that he had not beer~ 0 the

site often enocgh yet vith one of the

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gover~ors -~ goverG~entls expert witnesses

that person had been to the site less times

t1an t1e Srith Farms expert witress A1C SO

there is a confounding sense that in this

particular case for whatever reason if the

experts agreed ~ th r~e goverr_rne1t f they were

credible and that if they di~~t they were

not

It just seems highly unlikely that

every single witness iltroduced by Smith

Far~s and Ive had the pleasure of working

wi th Mr Boyd and it lS just I think

statistically urEkely that one could End

that many unmiddotmiddotmiddotcredible witnesses and in thisf

case I do not believe that they were not

credib2e I believe they were as credible ald

as I mentioned in some cases were stipulated

in beirg expert w~t~esses ~~

JUDGE SHEEHAN So you didnt

believe they were

HS WICHER I did not bel ieve

they were not credible so I believed that

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they were credible And -- and it is sOIEewhat

confoundirg other than to say that the

closest thing that I could figure out was that

if hey supported t~e governments viev tey

were credible and if they did not support the

governments Vlew I they were not

CJDGE trrOGAST But dien f t Judge

Moran find that -- and to generalize ---- that

the witnesses failed to establish that to the

exent t1ere were weta1ds they -lere isolated

by on-hydric soil lasnt that a central part

of his credibility determination

MS ~vILCHER Well trat S O1e of

the findings that Judge Moran made but in

this paricular case keep in mind its not

Smi Parms tha-c has 0 show that there is a

break or a barrier -- its the government who

has to show that the~e is a con~ection

JUDGE liOLGAST Of

understand Right

HS IIILCHER So theres cerainly

pockets of non-hyd~ic soil in tte area and

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for SOle reaSCl EPA _ ar~d again this is just

ki~d of amazing to me

spent this long on that EPA did not go out

there and do a typical delneaion of the

site and this is something that is cypically

done Its amazing that EPA did not issue a

cease and desist order as soon as t~ey ~~ew

abouc it There are many things that to me

are amazing about this case that quite

frarky I are he easor that I came nere to

argue it Because lIm a strong believer in

protecting the Clean Water Act and in

protec~ing lteta-ds and you mayor may lOot

know from my history I I bear a lot of scars

from having trIown myself in the body of

wetlands protection bac~ in the days ana I

still believe its an important thing to do

But I also believe its important to follow

~~e rule of law and ~n chis case Mr Boyd

made every effort to follow the rule of law

and I bel ieve he did and when it did not work

out tte way that EPA wanted the law to be

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this enforcement action came forward at a

time -- and had they intervened early on i~

t~is case they cou~d have stopped They knew

months before the work was cOITpleted -- hey

knew months before the work was completed that

there was ditching and draining going on

t~ere and trey did no move in quickly to try

to resolve that case ar~d they could have -shy

they could have stopped most of the so called

harm that they are now alleging but chose not

to do so ~~ey dd ~ot do a deineaLion they

did not inroduce proof that this particular

part of property has a significant nexus to

jurisdictional waters of the United States to

a navigable water of the United States I and

thats the reason I~ he~e

JJDGE VJOLGASI I see your time is

expired if theres no other questions

MS WILCHER Thank you

MS S~J~ET~ Good morning You=

Honors My name is Stefania Shaliat and I

represent Region III in this matter

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specifically the complainants who are the

division directors for the Environmental

Assessment a1d Irr~ovation Divisio1 and he

vater Protection Division I at EPA Regio11 III

With me at counsel table Id like to

i~troduce DO1la Carner-Tal f who is regulatory

co-msel for the Nc-folk District Army Corps of

Engineers and Karen ~lendelowskl gt who is with

the office of general cour~sel and also we

have a disirglshed g1e8 1$ d lke to

introd~ce -- si~~ing behind me is Dr Dennis

Whigham with the Smithsonian Environmental

Resea=cr Cente- Your Honors responders have

do~e ~~ if I ca~ get in a couple points -- a

good job of obfuscating what are really very I

very simple facts here The simple facts are

hat these are tllelands perfouuiq docurrenced

functions that are delivered to tributaries

These wetlands are adj acent physically

trose trib-ltaries f ard those

tr lbtacies flow to traditiorally navigable

waters to the West 2600 feet away to the

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East 4200 feet away In other words the are

wetlands adjacent to tributaries that low

waki1g clstance to tr-adi ional1y navigable

waters These Vetlfu1ds were jurisdictional

under SWANCC as respondent conceded in Clean

~later Act Appeal mmber 05-05 when respondent

reseved argll1snt on jtrisdicto1 but chose

not to raise it un~il there was a change in

case law They continue to be jurisdictional

under any standard enunciated by he Supreme

Court in Rap~~os The qJan~u~ of proof offeree

by the complaina1ts i1 this matter not only

exceeds preponderance of the evidence it

exceeds any quantum of proof required by

Rapanos In fact t far exceeds it Another

thirg that is obscured in the ar9J11ent here by

the respondents is that up until 2007

respondents had a different set of expert

witnesses It las tlose expert witresses that

coroplainalts stipulated 1heir expertise was

in wetlands identification and the connection

of wetlands to waters of the uniced States

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Ihose witnesses largely agee with

complainac1t I s version of the facts on the

ground ae-d i wasnt until 2007 when

respondents hired a new set of expert

witnesses that any real dispute arose about

what exactly was going on in the site There

was dispute about ithat hat nean f but not

exacly what the physical characteristics of

t21e si te ere

J1DGE WOLGAST Counsel coud you

address Ms wilchers points that while there

may be flow moderation carbon sequestration

there may be some evidence that the government

hasnt shmlTI a nexus between those

characterist~cs and the ~avigable waters

vIS SHAME Sure First of alI

the evi6erce of Je fuYlctions beirg performed

on this S1 te is not speculative There are

photo after photo and testimony after

testimony the governments evidence is based

or established scientific literature that

identifies something called field indicators

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-- physical characteristcs on the ground -shy

that when identified correlate to a specific

functi~n being formed by the wetland In this

case there are three Tr~e first was fow

noderaiou and one of the physical

characteristics thez-e would be such things as

ponding you see a lot of later being

captured in low levels depressional levels

withir the wetland Tle record conta1s dozens

of photos of that The secord is

denitrification and that is the microbes

llptaking nitrogen in the soil That indicator

is something called modelirg i1 he soil It sI

a red spotch Essentially it IEeans that iron

is there That evidence comes not only from

the complainants but if one were to reviel

the soi 18 expert froIT respordent Dr Parkers

O~ I-fr arlter f s firs expe~t repo-t ir

20C3 he describes modeling in his sails The

third is primary production That is the1

contribution of a food source Taking

transforming organics that a2e in the _- in

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nature into a food source in water that then

tralsports that food source dowYlsream to

higher trophic organisms The best evidence of

that actually comes from one of respondents

experts Dr Cahoot 1110 photographed it

leaving the site I cant find the photo at

the marneYlt f blt I 11 describe what he says

Foaing a he confluence of the ditch

leaving the property with ditches along the

property boundary near the railroad This foam

vias also sampled and examined microscopically

--- it contained primary plant debris some

peller ald rllnero-lS sma oil droplets These

oil droplets in my opinion were probably

plant oils derived froI decomposition of the

organic matter in this area That description

correlates perfectly with the description in

the testimony in tZ1e remand hearng about what

primary production s the transport of

particulate and dissolved organics downstream

as a food sOJce So the -Jse 0 the -- t~1e

functions this case are not speculative

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theyre clearly being per-formed theyre

clearly being cocC1ented as beir~g perforrred on

this wetland Theres also evidence of the

hydrologic connection between this wetland

the ibuaries and the downst-eam

trad~tionally r~avigable waers Again that

comes both frOIE complainant ~ s experts as well

as some of respondents experts one of

respondent I s experts described tr_at hydrologic

co~nectio3 as such He descrbed the wetland

as a table tcp on which somebody pours water

the water comes off of that table top into

the ditches and then tansports down to the

taditional1y navigable waers The sane

expert lgtIr Wolf also agreed that the

wetlands on the site were in fact

hydrologically conYlected to the di tches wr~ich

forrr tributaries and lJlere n fact adjacs1t to

them So we also have fUTIction ard we have

transport Now with respect to Ms Wilchers

corrment -shy

JUJGE WOLGAS~ is YoDr

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posi tion on the type of evidence that you

need to show nexus of

characteristics you see on site to the

navigable waters

gt1S SHAtvET My positio1 is tha we

met it exactly and I would refer you to

Justice Kennedys opinion Justice Kenledy

ide~tified the type of functions that he would

consider to form a significant nexus

traditional navigable waters and those are

p~ecisely the functions that were identified

on this site Specifically Justice Ker-nedy

refers to slowirg COt-C of surface runoff r

filtration and purification -- that would be

in on 547 US 773 to 75 He sta~es with respect

to weta1ds f the rationale for the Cleal ~fater

Act regulation is as the Corps as recognized

that vetlands can perforrl cri tica2 functioES

re2-ated to the integrity of other waters

functions such as pollutant trapping -- in

other words l denirifcatior~ -- flood control

flow moderation and ruriOff storage

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Ther-efore the types of functions that we

docrraented as beng performed or this site are

precisely the ypes of unctiors tha Jusice

Ken1edy ide1tified J in his opinion as the

type of functions that form a significant

nexus

JUDGE SHEEHAN In in your

brief on page 46 you say that the Kennedy

Test requiEs weta1ds cont-ibutions to the

physical c1emical or biologic in-egrity of

doOrIlstream waters -- is it nor or Hand Your

brief says or

MS SHAMET The brief says II or -shy

JUDGE SHEEHAN Because if it can

De just one of those -shy

SHA4ET I believe Justice

Kennedy did use and however it is c2ear

that he does not require a function to

contribute to all ~hree factors and chats

clear from the function he identifies

JUDGE SHEEHAN Then why did he say

and

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MS SHAMET I think he said and II

but he had a comraa and a1d he was -eferring

to a list of examples rather than a standard

i1ith respect to Ms Wilchers cormnent that we

dont have any photographs of pltLnes as I

indicatedf one were to trt 0 R Ex 28 f

which llnfortunatey I can f find right now I

ltlhich is Respondent 1 s Exhibit 28 from the

first hearing in 2003 Dr Cahoon provides a

picture of that plume himself I would also

point out that with respect to

denitriication one wouldnt expect to see a

pInrr -- thats the exact point its to hold

Che nitrogen on the wetland -lot send it

downstream

JUDGE STEIN How is the Rapanos

significant nexus test d_fferent if at all

=rom the nexus i~ Rivervew Rverside

Bayview

MS SHAMEl Riverside Bayvie

assumed a nexus based upon adjacencYi in this

case lJustice Kennedy has asked that we

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actually go forward and establish that the

nexus exists rather than simply assuming itI

based On adjacency

JUDGE SHEEHamp~ on page 41 of your

brief you quote some of the tesciroo1Y of the

first ALJ hearing I which sounds a lit~le more

entative to me tha1 youre souidir_g today

about the substa1tial nexus test being met

The brief~ at page 41 reads that these

wetlands are more likely to perform

denitrification more likely to allow for

suspended settlements -- sediments to settle

out~ more likely to support a different suite

of wildlife species that to me is

lar-guage ~rats ~ot qui~e as powerful as

saying there is a substantial nexus met here

that just sounds -- can yo~ address what seems

to be more diffident language in your brief

than what youre articulating today

MS SHAMET Well as Your Honor

pointed out T the language that you pointed to

in the brief is from the 2003 hearing before

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tr~e Rapanos case As the Board is avlare J he

EPP~ agreed and argued that the evidence to

satisfy Rapanos had not been fl11y developed

as of 2003 and this precisely why we

requested a remand

JUDGE SHEEHAN But youre cit i ng

it here filed long after Rapanos as if its

still your position

MS SHAME~ I cited a lot of other

evidence as lJell Your Honor incLuding the

testimory of Mr Rhodes he testi~cny of Dr

~fhigham and the testimony the f1Tther

estimony of Hr Mart So while that is a

piece of evidence it is certainly not the

only evidence cited in our brief

JUDGE WOLGAS~ ~o go back to the

point you were making earlier about how the -shy

in essence the three-part test is the same

type of evidence yo~ would look to to

establish sign~ficant nexus ard Justice

Kernedy did seer to speak to hat saying much

the sarre evidence I referring to tre Corps ssect

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delineation manual type evidence should

P8nnit the establishment of a significant

nexus witr navigable wates

particularly if supplemented by further

ev~dence abou~ the significance of the

tributaries to which the wetlands are

cO11ected How does the gove-nment interpret

the latter part of that quote

MS SILllltlECmiddot I think that the

government needs to show and has shown in

this case that there is an ability of those

trihttayies Co conect the wetlands to a

traditionally navigable water in such a way

that the poundtnctions are delivered In this case

we have certainly shown the hydrologic

cO1nect=-o1 some of respondents expe-ts have

agreed with us that that connection exists and

tha there is sufic8Ylt ~hat there is

water exchange there and weve also shown

that heres proxirrity here again these are

walking distance to traditionally navigable

waters this is not the Rapanos case where it

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traveled 32 miles So we think we have met

that burden here by sho~Jing the hydrologic

connection and showing that these tributaries

are capable of delivering the function With

respect to cr-edibi=-ity and he points that

Your HOlors asked of AS Wilcher I would just

point out tha~ lTudge lvlorans credibility

determination was based on demeanor and also

on the facts of this case An important fact

to note for insta11ce is in the firstF

r~earing in 2003 respondent I s soils exper

who laid a g=id fOJnc 53 ou 55 sarnples

hydric The only two that were non-hydric had

JUDGE STEIN I couldnt hear you

MS SHApoundT Had 53 Oelt of 55 soil

sa~ples he identified as hydric in the site

soEs or ei ther side In the secord heaocilg

Dr Pierce testified that there was

essentially non-hydric soils everywhere And

on cross-examination he was asked didn t youI

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find any hydric soils and he said oc yeah

I found them I just didnt click on my GS

locator and ider~tify where they were and I

just didn It report them He only reported the

non-hydric soEs That is the kind of thing

that happened that caused Jtdge l-loran 0 find

a lack of c-edibility vvlth respect to 9r

Straw Dr Straws expert report disc1ssed

undulations in the landscape that he

interpreted to mean ere were no wetlands

tlere On the sand he conceded trat there

were no u1dulaions on tr~e landscape -- he had

mis~nterpreted the aeria= photo More

importantly he conceded ~hat he knew about

ha t erroy before the hearing and leverf

corrected it until cross-exa~ination Judge

Moran had ample basis for finding no

credibility on those witnesses

JUDGE SEIN Is it your view tha~

the Board has no authority to overrale an

ALJs credibility determination

MS SHAl-1ET No YOJr Honor the

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Board reviews he case de novo lffuile the

Board certainly defer to the ALJ r s credibili ty

determination what I run saying that in this

case t~ere is no basis for overturn~~g it

JUDGE STEIl If we were to

overturn it -- a credibility determination

what kinds of factors r it your view s1ould 18

be taking into aCCo4nt

MS S~~~ET I would think you

oelld be looking to see whether or not the ALJ

has a rational basis oh gosh I hate to use

legal standards like that -- but some sort of

bass or hich he based his credibiliy

deerrtination that he explained why there was

a lack of credibility and I think in this

case he did so amply

JUDGE SHEEHAJ If Ms v~i 1 cher S

correct characterizing the way testimony

cedibclity went i soanced almost like a

hundred percent credit to government

witnesses and practically zero to

respondens witnesses f tratg acctrate

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jus stipulat-=-ng 0 trat assumption - - if

t~atfs accu~ate would that be a basis fer not

allcwing deerence to Jdge Morans

credibility determinations if its so

lopsided

ocs SH_~ET In this case I would

say no just simply because in this case we

have a classic battle of the experts I but

oddly enough the ba~~ling experts are al on

respondents side And )hat we have are

experts whD ~estif~ed in 2007 who flat

disagreed wit the testimony of respordent S

experts in 2003 without any atterrpt by the

2007 experts or respondents to reconcie

that testiITony Given that circumstance it sf

not surp-isirg that the experts in 2007 s

testimony were given very litte weight One

of the things that Hs ltJilcher referred 0 was

unfettered access to the site If anyone had

u~fettered access to the site~ it was

respondent and yet there are no photos in the

record showing the streaL~S leaving the site

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dry except during a drought

JUDGE VOLGAST But her point was

tha t the goverrunert ~as the bmiddoturden here

MS SHlHEI And the burden -- he

government has met the burden In fact in

this case the preponderance 0 the evidence

literally the only evidence other than

testirrony by the site owner testimony by

someone who walks around a three-hu1dred-acre

site hunting and looki1g for damage in che

fieds which lS what he estified he was

doing there and photographs taken during a

d--ought he oV9rtlhe=Iilg evidence is that the

waters do flow on a regular basis First of

all these waers have been napped the

waters leaving the site -- as flovving water by

USGS for hal f a century

JUDGE vIOLGAST Yo mentioned that

the waters flow on a regular basis Is that a

conir~uols bas~s

MS SHAMET We would say it would

be part of every year Your Honor

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JUDGE SHEEHAJ Tlen W1Y 18 that

necessarily continual The Scalia Test now

that veve 901e to continual flow is jilst

that -- there has to be continual flow He

says even the least significant of the lake

river ocealS or streams the four water

bodies the least significant steams has to

have COlticua you

repeatedly say - make other instances that

are to me a lot less cor~fdent t1~an what

Scalia seems to deilland You say page 31 the

drains flow at least part of every yeari page

35 at least SOme portion of every year at

least at least at least it comes up

repeated-ly in YOlr brief vlhich couid be just

one rain event So theres one rain at least

it flows one or two days after the rain aod

thats certainly a far cry I would argue

from continual So can you address the seeming

gap between your statemen~s and what Scalia

seems to demand as far as continual flow

~S SHk1ET Ie would state that

Your

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Justice Sca~ia described re1ativey permanent

wateYs He made pretty clear wrat teose were

He did~t require any specific n~~er of days

of flow -- what he did say was common sense

and common usage distinguished between a wash

and a seasoral river and tha f s in foot1ote

five respondent likes to use the term

intermitten~ a lot but the one thing it is

clear from footnote 5 is that Justice Scalia

does not give the term intermittent any

ocegulatoY import trJhy Because he

specifically decli~ed ~o define it

JUDGE SHEEHAN Why doesnt he give

it regulatory import when at least seven

tirres by ely count in his opinion he says

iEtermi tent waters do not cca11 fy as

jurisdictional -- he even calls it an oxymQron

ac one point

~S SHAMET Even though he does

not -- he declines ~o defihe it He says that

thee are defiritions 0 nterrnttent bu he

sees 10 reason to identify what tlose are

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here I and then he specifically says I We have

no occasion in this litigation to decide

exacty whe1 he cryirg up of a streambed is

continuous and frequent enough to disqualify

tle channel as a water 0 the Cnited States

~jUDGE SHEEI-IAN I know we can t -shy

aobody knows what intermitter~t meaJs with

aOsol~te rigor thas obviously subject to

interpretation But the fact is he

contlnmiddotually rejects intermitten~ waters

whatever that Ireans as jurisdictional a1d

you say intermittent doesnt matter I dont

know how yot can say lat in the face cf al

his statements that intermittent does w~tter

HS SHAMET I think the evidence

dernorstrates pretty clearly that ther-e is

regular flow on a regular basis in these

wateTs A good exaTIple

JUDGE SHEEH1ll~ Im not talking

about the eviderce 1lT talking about the

standard

MS SHAIjET The standard lS that

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there has to be a relatvely pe-mar_ent tvater

It cant be a wash it cant be someLhing that

flows only occasionally only in response co

a very strong rainfall i~ cant be a gutter

It has to be a geographic feature ~~d in this

case we have USGS mapping these as geographic

features conainng Vlaer for over ffty

years which if thatis not relatively

permanent I In not qui te sure what would be

JUDGE SHEEHAN C-ne1 how else - shy

why else -- why is it that you cannot muster

more behind your argument that these are

lowing dyains tha1 just saying at least part

of the year continually You never say its

continual you never say its relatively

permanert ane not interrrittert you seem to

stay away from saying that and it seems

purposeful because it happens so frequently

1 S SHAHET ~J e dont

over~exaggerate our evidence we say what it

is And in this case what we r re saying is Ie

agree hsse styeams dry up for part of ~he

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year VJe f ve never argued that these were

perennial streams because theyre not They

are streams that only flow for part of the

year But part of the year is good enough

1nder Jtstice Scalia f s test These are rot

washes theyre ~ot t ckles When they flow

t1ey flow As Jlldge Mo-an pointed out I the

record is replete wi th photos of these streams

flowing and floling wi th a good arnount ofI

water them Now for exanpJe -shy

JUDGE SHEEHlll Flowing at least

part of the year right

MS SHAME~ Flowirg at least part

of the year If I could get the photo up An

example is ~his series of photos~ if we can

get it up If not Ill jus give tre exhibit

numbers Not a perfect picture This photo was

taken in December 2006 As you can see

theres visible flow in the stream A1d this

is Complainants Exhibit 328 co~plai~ants

Ex-hibit 308 - sarre sreart same location you

can tell by the cross January 07 J still

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lt- Low~ng

JUDGE SHEElI1N ~Iha t does tha t

realy prove YOJ cOl-=d go out right after a

rain as apparently happenedi apparently Dr

Whigham went out afte rain irw 07 ard Judge

Moran noted that he was out two days after a

big rain so naturally the drains were full

DJ showing us occasiQral ~-

IS SHAlyenjET If you can show four

sraight lonths of floN f think youre

probaby doing pretty good This is O1e of

respondent I S exhibits This is Dr Straws

photo ta~er_ in February 2007 This s

Respondents Exhibit 57pp

JUDGE VJOLGASI I (IT sory 1 whose

testimony was ~his

MS SHAMET Dr Straws The other

~h~ng that is documeGted -- Im just going to

go ahead and give you April April 2007 still

flow This is Complainants Exhibit 391 and

just ia case were llorried about March e

dont have March 2007 we have March 2003

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JIDGE SHEEHAN What drain is that

MS SHAMET This is Complainants

Exhibit 102L

JUDGE SHEEHAN What drain

MS SHAMET This is the portion of

drait six- seven as it leaves the si-se

crosses unde~~ea~h the railroad tracks to che

west and leaves the site We would also noce

chat in che 2003 hearing it was established

ard Judge ChaYlJeski acc6ped ordinary hig

watermark for the duration of the streams

leaving the site from the time they leave the

site cntil the time they wa~king distance

away hit traditionally navigable waters Now

whIle Justice Scalia said that existence of an

ordinary high waternark in and of itself does

not estabJish jurisdicion it does remair a

fact on the ground that shows the preseTlce of

f~c~J O-1r b~ief did cite in a footnote a

number of cases that describe what an ordinary

high water mark means and what it basically

means is that theres water there on enoJgh

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of a regular basis that theres no

vegetation and Dr Straw in poirtig at that

photo 57pp poined out that there was an

ordinary high watermark there e believe that

we 1ave s~ovm t2lougt t~1at eviderce as well is

that theres a regularity of flow through

these water bodies tJi th respect to Ms

~iilcher f s suprise that EA did not issue a

cease and desist order we in fact did we

issued an admif~istrative order n 2000 I

doat have the record citatio~ with me bu~ I

believe it was testified to in the 2003

tearilg In addi tion tlith respec 0 YIs

Wilchers conunent that EPA knew about the

operation before it was completed and didnt

intervere ~rat is also not correct In Culy

of 1999 EPA contacted respondent and

requested a site visit A- that time the work

was not done l6 site visit was scheduled in

-- they did the scheduling In July and the

visit was schedJled in September and in

August respor~dent brought equipment to the

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site and finished it up to present EPA with a

fai t accompli Couple other points There I s

bee~ a ~w~er of debates i~ t~e b~ie= about

briefs about whether or not there are in

fact wetlands on the sice and whether or not

they extend all the way to the tributaries

First of all ~othi~g in Rapanos altered the

EEe~gy and Water Developmert Appropriations

Act of 1993 Public Law 102377 106 Statutory

at Large 1315 in which Congress directed the

Corps of Eng~leers to use t~e 1987 wetlands

delineation nanual until a replacement manual

was established the courts have

recognized deference to the Corpss 1987

manual as the agencys interpretation of its

OvT regulatiors That manual was applied in

this case That manual when applied in this

case identifies wetlands throughout the site

JUDGE SHEEHAN A~e these -- are

these wetlands these draircs are tl_ey fed by

a1Y other source than rain

MS SHAMET No Your Honor These

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wetlands are what are called the top of the

watershed and this is why water flows in two

directions off of this site -- it flows both

west and east because its at the top of the

watershed

JUDGE SHEEHAN So any water on the

site its all rain-fed

MS SHAMET Yes The seasonality

of it however I can be established through

testimony regarding how the plants on this

site interact with that precipitation And

that testimony discusses the relationship

between whats called leap out and

transpiration In other words when the leaves

are on the trees the trees are uptaking water

from the ground -- from the groundwater table

and the groundwater table decreases and

thats why you see lower levels of water in

the summer During the winter when the leaves

are off the trees the trees are not

transpiring yet -- the water table rises and

thats why these are seasonally flowing

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s~reams and seasoca~ systems

JUDGE SHEEHAN Is there any

testirtony in the record abott the frequency of

the rain If rain is it is the source is

rain something on this property that occurs

f if -y times a year I a hundred t iITes a year t

two ~ines a year

MS SHAME= YOur Honor the

2003 record I believe there was an exhibit

and I apologize that I canZt name the exhibit

number for you right now that idenifies what

a one year storm is f what a three year stOrIT

is~ and l-lha a five year storm is in that

county and I apologize that I cant come up

with the exhibit number for you right now

JUDGE SHEEHAN vlell whats your

recolecion about it irhat it says eve if we

dont know the exhibit right now 111 just

trying to get a bead on how -- whether its

typically dry or typically wet there With

rain

MS SHAI-fET Your Hono f I cant

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recall I believe its under a~ inch -- around

a~ inch bu~ ca~t say foy su~e I look at

a lot of these for a let opound dipoundfeent areas

and I don~t want to get one mixed up with the

other

JUDGE ~]OGAST vTose testimony

we6 you reerrlg to gtThen you were discusslg

seasonality

MS SHAMET That was testimony of

Mr Martin It is at Remand Transcript 1912

~~d Rema~d Transcript 354

JUDGE STEI f he Board we~e to

conclude tha the evidence in this case meets

the Kennedy est is it necessary for theI

Board to consider whether the evidence meets

the plurality test

18 8HAMET Its the posiio1 of

EPA hat satisfying either test will establish

geographic jurisdiction under the Clean Water

Act As the Board noted all courts that have

so held have held tha~ if one meets re

Kennedy Tests then t~ats satised Ir

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a~swer actually to one of your questions I

1think Judge Steir there is one case It S an

unreported case out of the District of Hawaii

that has held that the Kennedy Test is lircited

to isolated waters and hat Y0l otherwise

apply to Scalia Test and that is Sierra vs

COJ1ty of Honolulu 2008 us Distcict EX=S

64262 1 and we would just note that that case

is inconsistent with the governing circuit

lali ts tle 9h Circuit and we believe its

inconsistent with Headlesburg and Moses but

you did ask lthether there was any case that

discussed he Sca=--~a test and that is the

only one at least Im aware of To answer

your question we believe t11at satisfying the

Kennedy Iest wOll-~d be sufficient and it would

not be necessary to reach the Scalia Test i

however we do beLeve thas weve satisfied

boh in this case and that ei ther test will do

it All through

JUDGE SHEEHAN Can you poi~t us iL

the record to what may not be a gap but it

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looks like a bit of a gap at least from the

briefs There I s a lot of testimony -- a lot of

discussion in your brief about the history

the history on the site water on the site

for exa~pe a 1953 p~cto s~ows di~ch O~e had

water I a 1937 photo one two and four had

water 1920 f USGS map had five -- ditch five

had water And then so we leap from sixty f

seventy years ago to the present decade

oegirning in 1999 middotJ~el a buner of inspectio1B

occurred mainly in 99 I and there was some

hopscotching and then they e~ded in 2007 So

he~e --- at least from the bries treres a

fairly big gap between the very very historic

taps and photos I and then ~he 1999-on

inspections and That they showed What about

the intervening

HS SHlIiCET - believe tha~ we also

discussed the USGS maps in 1994 which were

the most recent maps prior to activity As

YOUY HO1ort s aware from the Boards decisio1

in Bricks its inCUInbent upon us to show what

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the wates Jere lLlte before the activity f not

after the activity

JUDGE SHEE~~ Right bue the

before here is well before Thats my

~estion I dont see much except for that 94

map

MS SHAMET 1Ind we also used

aeria photography from 1994 and 1995 to

suppla--nent rphere I S been nO evidence in the

record that anything changed between 1994 and

1995 and the acivity in question which

started in I believe December of 98 or

Jaluary cf 1999 Ane I believe responcerts

agreed on the western side of the site in

their expert reper that the configuration

has been co~sistent si~ce 1949 up until the

time of the activity If there are any further

quest iors I woud jus smnnarize again by

pointing out that the facts this case are

veoy very siltple Ttese are wetlands theyre

clearly docJmented as wetlands the

preponderance of the evidence established the~

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as wetlands The preponderance of evidence -shy

tle overwhelming preponderance of the evidence

established that Chese wetlands are

performing actual documented functions The

very significant nexlJS that Justice Kennedy

described in h~s opinion The evidence in this

case shows that these wetlands are physically

adjacent to tributaries These are ditches

they are rranmade bu~ wo~d ~ust note that

iJ Ra9a~os itself the ditches were manmade

and no justices voted about that They flow

waking dista1ce to tradi tionally r~avigable

waters and 7hey are jllrisdictional Thank

you

MS v-JILCHER May it please the

cOJgt IrJClnt to t~lank couJsel for -aising the

tabletop analogy necause I forgot to This is

at a divide It is twenty feet above sea

level It 8 a watersted divde lke he

cortinental divide such hat water is flowirg

away it is not at the bottom of anything It

is nQ a marsh it is EDt a bog it is Lot a

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swarrcp i1-is is ar~ area where there is no

abili ty for the fJetland to capture and keep

pollutants out of a Y1avigable water because it

lrsef is a the very head of the watershed

And so trying 0 -- f you Jere able to be

there and see that~ you woald understand that

its not got the same type of functions and

values as some area ad) aca1t to below I

cach1g f pYEvertng po=-l-ltion cori1g frou a

10 of upstream areas While thats not

parricularly significant

JUDGE SHEEHIlll Havent yo just

helped ma~e te argumelOt that with gravity

lorking as it 60es any discharge of a

po1hltant up high wotld have made its way dOlJID

low f to a navigable water

MS WILCHER Yes so this is not

a rrounanols area fh=-s is a very slight

slope 11 fact to the naked eye it s almostt

hard to see a slope

JUDGE SHEEHAN Why does flow

matter as significant ~exus goes

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HS VrJCHER We11 the amount of

rur~offf qJie fr-ankly r~at would occur can

matte w~th regacd to that I do want 0

address a few absolutely incorrect things that

were stated and a couple misconceptions Let

me start with the mischaracterization of the

axpert witnesses that were hired in 2007

There seems to be some attempt to imply that

hiri1g differe1t expert witnesses to deal with

wtether this is ju-iscicto1al under Rapanos

is the same as having expert witnesses to

testify whether or not this area met the

former -- the actual definition of a wetland

Theyre two different things You can have a

wetland and it ca1 still not be

jClrisd~ctional So itS our hope that the

Board doesnt misconstrue that to say that by

hiring different fgtxperts you were trying to

get a different result which was not the case

-- its simply that if youre looking at how

much flow what the funcions of values ar-e

its a very differert thing fran sorteone who

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caL go ou~ a~d do the soil samples to

determine whats hydric and whats not

Seco~d jus~ as with regard to the

credibility of the witnesses just as there

were some -- a case perhaps whee ac-I expert

witness misstated something or changed its

rnird 1 so did some of the government I s expert

wi tnesses misstate something that then had to

be co-ected So did the brief that said

that took the word and and changed it to

Or witr regard to what Justice Kennedy hadI

written So I dont think that that in and of

itself has any significarce wi th regard to the

credibility of a witness tihen we are talking

abcu lGVJ fa this land is from a navigable

water counsel has mentioned that it S 2600I I

feet middotrhich is about half a mile or 4200

feet which is close to a mile -- thats not

to reac-t a navigabe water Let us be clear

That is to reach something that is not

necessarily an intermittent area4 EPA

stipulated l the stipulations dated

NEAL R GROSS COURT AEPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

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Septewer 8th 03 that the water body

depicted and ]i5 is nurrbers 37 and 38 that

the water bodies depicted as these drainage

ditches on the site are depicted by the USGS

topa rEap at the 3allary Hill (Phonetic)

quadrangle as a broken blue line and that a

broken bae line denotes an irtermi ttent

stream These are intermittent streams ard as

Justice Sheehan has correctly noted Judge

Scalia says n mary circ1JIstarces that

intermittent streams are not jurisdictional

waters of the U S HmAever if we tun to irlhat

Custice Kennedy says thats rhece we kind of

get into the eitheror what we also find

there is a great discussion by Justice Kennedy

loiClself on 1e Ccrps definition of a

tributary Counsel was referring to the

drainage ditches as t-ibutaries ard Justice

Kennedy makes it c~ear that the corps

definition of tributary that was in effect at

tr~e time this decision was -rritter middotJsing he

high watermark was not appropriate I and would

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

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lead in fact to too broad a definition of what

was jurisdictional i~ and of itsef under the

Clean Water Act And theres we dont have

time to read it all but Im sure youve

probably ead it more tirres t~an have

aryay iled also jtst lke to mention tha

qui te frankly the evidence that has been

introduced in this case is the type of

evidence the Cour was r~opng would not be

Csedo prove jurisdictior on such an

important issue and that is its speculative

Its not -- were not arguing that wetlands

arent irrportart J we arent arguing that

wetlands aralt valuabe anc you know in

1990 wed say regulate because we had the

legal authority to do so This again is one

of tlese cases t1at sirrply wishing that 1_e

Q C d h dfe I~upreree o~r~ naa sal some ~~g 1 ~eren~ y

does not make it so This is what the Court

said -- thats the final word on the mater

whatever we decide ~t is bu it S tre firai

word and we c~~t change that regardless ofl

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRA-SCRIBERS

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how mportant or ho wrong someone may think

that it auld be To other quick points to

mention and that is EPA knew about this work

that was going on in February of 1999 and

that is in Jeff Lapps testimony tn Volume 1

page 167 through 169 so EA did kno Most of

t~e woyk was completed by Aprii or May of that

year before EPA every CaIne out to the site

and it wasnt until 2000 chat a notice of

violation was issued

JUDGE SHEEHamp1 So why does that

matte- That is an enforcement choice EPA makes

every day of the week and its not part of

the record i~ has nothing to do with whether

or not the Kennedy or Scalia or any other test

was met It really doesnt seem to bear on the

legal issues here

11S vIILCHER Fair enough For

purpose of ~his arg~~e~tl for t~e pur~ose of

today youre probaDly right J-luge But i~

does matcer if were talking about typical

practice of EPA and while Im well aware that

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202) 234middot4433 WASHINGTON DC 20005middot3701 wwwooalrgrO$$oom

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theres no requirement to take an enforcemer-t

action in a1ything less trar this period of

statute of limitations if in fact this was as

egregious and as violative and as problematic

as counsel appears to make it seem then EPA

did have every opportlli~ity to stOy that and

in ITany many cases vlhen EP1 sees a clear

violation of the law I they simply issues a

cease and desist order and in a case like

Rapanos in the Rapacos case you have people

who are going out anc taking action and

violating the wetlands law after theyve

received many state and federal cease and

desis orders so the facts of this case are

so di==ere~t from the facts of tha~ case Here

we have someone who was trying to comply with

the law as it was written at the time in my

view he was complying with the law as it was

wri ten at tlat time actG the fact tha EPA

didnt like ~he way the law was written and

what it said and what the courts were

deciding does not give hem authority to come

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

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in and regulate after the fact

JUDGE WOLGAST Counsel thank you

youre Olt of if you could make your

final point n just r~e next thirty secords J

I think you saie you had two I may be

mistaken

MS WILCHER Thank you Well we

are talkirg about jurisdictio1 I do think

tha tte overall =-ssJe of equity cotes i1to

play Ar~d knowing -- even krowing what the

jurisdiction was at the time of the activities

undertaken is really kind of an unc I Qar

matter Were still struggling with what

j Clrisdict iOI is Re9rettably toat s always

been t~e problem with this program

problem Igtli th this progral7l is that Corgress did

not give us clear direction and clear guidance

to either EPA or to the Boyds or to anyone

else in the regulative corrmlUnity and I t-hink

that s a factor certainly that the court Iblil

consider ard should corsder I when making a

decision on issues of liability and in this

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND tRANSCRIBERS

~323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW i202 234-4433 WASHINGTON DC roooS-3701 WWWlI$alrgmssOOffl

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case we would ask that you do so Thank you

J1DGE voLGAST Thank YOJ Cours

thank yOJ for your arguUent and the case is

now submitted

MS DURR All rise Session of the

Environmenta Appeals Board nmv stands

adjourned

(Whereupon the above-entitled

matter was concluded at 11 16 am)

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON DC 20005-3701 wwwnealrgrossoom

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Page 81

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Page 82

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Page 83

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CERTIFICATE

This lS to certify tha~ ~he foregoi~g transcript

in the matter of Snith Farm 3nterprises ILC

Hon Anna Wolgast E-wironmenta Appeals Judge

Date Jaly 20 2010

Flace Washingson DC

represens the ful and complete proceedings of the

aforementio1cd marter as reported and reduced to

typewriting

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCR8ERS

1323 rOOE iSLAND AVE_ NW (202 234-4433 WASHtGON DC 20005-3701 fNWnnalrqft)6Scom

Page 7: BEFORE THE ENVIRONMENTAL APPEALS BOARD IN ... By...MS. DURR: Environmental Appeals Board of the U~ited States Environmental Protec~ion Agency is now in session for oral argument, in

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po s out that tneuro Corps adopted increasingly

broad interpretations of its own regulations

Talked about the migratory bird rule It

talked about how the Corps rad exparded ~ts

own interpretations of the definition of

tributaries to include ephemeral streams ard

c~ose that ran ~hrough drainage Qitc~es And

then the plurality opinion goes on to clarify

that that type of regulation was never

intended to be covered by the Clean raer Act

as waters of the U S SOIDe of the key

JUDGE STEIN Ms Wilcher

JiS ~TIL-CrER Yes

JVDGE STEIN Has any court held

that the plurality test alone determines

jurisdiction

ItS WILCHER I do not believe

that any court has held that the plurality

test alo~e confers jurisdiction

JUDGE STEIN Okay

MS 11 I LCHER I assume that the

court wants to hear about that since it is an

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202) 23~4433 WASHINGTON DC 20005lt)701 wwwnealrgrosscom

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impotant part of the decision AQd we can

talk about significant nexus next I if thatS

okay or if you wart me to go to significant

nexus now I be happy to do that

JUDGE STE=N No thats fine you

car talk about the pluralities first but le~

me ask you if we were to find that the

eviQe~ce met as J~dge Xoran oQ~6 the

significant nexus test but for whatever

reason it didnt meet the plura~ities test l

L1en vhat is middotJ~e OJtcorneuro

MS WILCHER Now thats a very

and no one knows In the Fourth Circuit

specifically what the outcome of that -- what

the outcome would De The Rapanos test

unfortunately in an effort to reign in

jurisdicion by the Corps and EPA created

probably as many questions as it did answer

and its created a lot additional

lit~gation So we I re here synpatretic 0

EPAS plight of having to try to figure out

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISlAND AVE NW (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON DC 20005lt701 wwwnoolr9f05Sc(JITl

------- --

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what that meanS l a~d the regulated community

also rying 0 figure oat what it means

becalse it is simply not clear The Marks case

that said that you would select the nost

Earow of the interpretations n a case such

as this might be difficult to apply because

it S hard to figure out itlhat the most 1arrowI

cefinition or application of this case would

be Obviously from Smith Farms standpoint

we would be really delighted shou~d =h~s board

decide to follow the Ilarks opinion and decide

that the Scalia test would be the most

appropiae here bJt vere perfecty preparedl

to address both

JUDGE WOLGAST B~t that is -- but

yot-e assuning trat the narrowest grounds

would then be the pluralities test as opposed

to say I the narrowest ground sin-ply being

tha hey rejeced the Rapanos evicence ald

remanded the case In terms of what -- what

five justices could agree to It Jas simply

ocemand

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISlAND AVE NW Z02 24-4433 WASHINGTON DC 20005-37)1 WflW J10slrgrosscom

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MS rLCHER rgthat f S rigrLt Thats

right But i s presumed trat the CO-clrt s

reasoni1g ar~d the four -- the opinion of the

four written by Scalia the opinion of

Roberts the opinion of Justice Kennedy all

rreant sameL-hing J and hat is what we are left

to vlork within and -shy

TUDGE SHEEHAN What do you think

cf the governme~ts argument trat either test

can apply as the First and Eighth Circuits

have held

MS WI~CHER well clearly a

nillnber of circuits have held that either test

Itould apply f ard in this case we we

believe that the evidence despicB what the

ALJs have found we believe the evidence

clea~ly shows that under neither test would

this area considered to be jurisdictional

~nder the curre~t interpretatio~ of the Clean

Water Act u~der Rapanos

And I really do think chat

not wanting to lose the forest for the trees

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRA1SCAIBER3

1323 RHODE jSlAND AVE NW (202) 2344433 WASHINGTON DC 20005-370~

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here the forest -- the big picture is thatI

Rapanos is a dramatic shift in the way

busir~ess as usual has been done aL these

agencies from 1972 ~ntil 2006 It is -shy

in 2001 you had a little deviation here but

its a ilge dfference and what we find in

the brief -- and what we find in the brief of

t1e govermnent in this case is lot much of a

differerce from how the law previously lttas

interpreted and Ill -- Ill just go ahead

aYld address thae ssae and that is that the

the strongest argument it appears that

he government nakes in its brief dealing

with the significant nexus test is that

wetlands are ~rrponart ~1etlards provide

valuable functions and even Rapanos case

notes that the Clean V~ater Ac has been very

important and serves an important public

interests and Section 404 and the wetla~ds

laws i-l particuar provide ar~ irportant public

interest

JUDGE SHE1 Vie11 i 81 c the

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPOATEFlB AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE fW (2ltJ2) 2344433 WASHINGTON DC 2ltlOOSr01 wwwnoalrgrosscorn

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governments argument that these wetlands I in

particua are important I and can you address

how these wetlands do or do not meet the

Kennedy significant nexus test

fiS WILCHER That woud be t1e

goverlli~ents argument but in this case they

have failed cO co inCroduce by a

preponderance of the evidence ~hat that is

the case

JUJGE WOLGAST Coud you describe

for us what you ~elieve the goverr~ent would

have to show at a minimum to meet Justine

Kernedys significant nexus test in this

context

MS ~iILCHER At a mini~um they

wotd have to show some measure of the effec

that would be had by this wetlands property

upor~ a navigable vater of the Uni ed States

and they have not done so ln ary regard

JUDGE SHEEHIN Wasnt there

abunda1t testimony says the gDve=runent by

expert i1itness Martin and others that there

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE SLAND AVE NW 202 234-4433 WASHNGTOtt DC 20005-3701

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was such a C oILleci en YOJ f re speakirg very

theoretically Id like if you could to get

specific about what you think the failu~es are

i~ the governments case on the Kennedy test

MS ~VIrJCHER Yes but if you -shy

+_--ne if you look at the gover1TIleuroEt s

argument one of their lengthy arguments is

about the impact 0 denitrification that

VJetlands provide an important deni trification

iss~eJ pointing out that the Chesapeake Bay

tas too rruch nityogen and tbat its important

to keep that out They talk about the fact

that n~toger coues from atrrosphe-ic

deposition They talk about the fact that

microbes in the soil vi22 break hat rtroger

down and then they talk about that once the

nitrogen is broken dmvr it ll be taken up by

the breeze and i If~ay even be given off again

into -- into the air

JDGE STEIN ltJasn f t there

plentiful testimony by government witnesses

and the companys witnesses as to what was

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occurr~ng specifically at this site I mean

I think the challenge for the compa~y i~ this

appeal 8 that there were credibili ty findings

Chat tiere made by the ALJ as to some of the

testimony by respondents by the companys

wi tnesses and given the Board f 5 standard forJ

crecibility determinations where the 30ard

you knovl historically ove many mar~y years

gives great weight to an ALJ~s finding how is

it ha t we can ove look he ALJ S credibi lity

determinations in the face of countervai~ing

evidence ~hat the ALJ found ~o be credible

(S WILCHER Judge Stel if I

can finish Judge Sheehans question I III ge

right back 0 you on that You were wanting

some specifics and an example of what the

government tried to prove in its case By

go~ng through this whole denitrification

process they nake ~o distinction betwee~ the

value that ris particalar wetlald is making

or any paricular wetland is making I to the

denitrification 0 the Chesapeake Bay

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JUDGE SHEEHAN But the Kennedy

tea says that if wetlands aloLe or in

combination with other wetlands have that

kind of effect

115 WILCHER Wetlands alone or in

corrbinato1 with otrer wetlands or in

combination lith the uplands the arguments

~ha t tbey ace laking wOClld apply equally to

uplands and as the court noted in the Rapanos

decision applying some of these tests as the

government histori cally has applied them to

say that they are jurisdictional sirrply

because hey have value and may be somewhat

miles aay hut may have some connection or

some val~e ~i~es away being speculative in

nature does rot cause it to be

jurisdictional and it sa~d i~ so the en~ire

United States would be considered regulated

llilder tbe Clear~ ater Act

JUDGE SHEEHAN Theres ~~ theres

one and cot to get in the vay of Judge

Steins question but Qne of the exhibitsr

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Remand Exhibit 937 shows a very honeycombed

tissue through the Srith Farm weta1ds going

ou~ to the two rivers and then to the bay I~

looks sure _ surely to me it looks from this

exhibit and otes as if tl1e wetlands are very

proximate to and affect directly the waters

below Car you address that

KS WILCE2R I wil Those naps

do not show any actual measurable connection

nor do they show a contir1oJS surface

conE6ction r~avigable vrates

JUDGE SHEEHAN Why does it have to

be a surface connection tilly car_ t it be stbshy

surface if theres a hydrological link

MS WILCHER But theres ~o

showir~g of a silD-surface hydroogica liak

either Theres a total lack of evidence of

probative dence i~ th~s case to actualy

tie that paricu=-ar vletland Co a rcavigable

water which by the way you would have to gor

fcom tha wetland to a drair~age ditcr~ anc

went out there and traipsed down the site

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before I came here to talk to you about this

but youd have to go fr~~ that -- b~t this ~s

all en the record -- YOlld have to go fron

that area that might be-- that part of it that

might be considered a we~land~ through

drainage di tches t1at are only inerrrit ert

in nature and t1e evidef~ce is clear that

theYre only intermittent in nature including

the USGS blue line dotted lines and then they

would have to go from tlere to Bailey Creek

non- navigable to Drurr Point Creek

non-navigable] then to tributaries of the

westeGl branch of the Elizabeth River I which

is t~e f rst tne you I d hi a ~avigable wate

If go in the opposite

direction they would have to go from drainage

ditches to Quake~ Neck Creek to ~eans Bra~ch

which are tributaries 0 tne ravigable water

the Nansemond River 14d so there there is

no proof that there is a connection

Things could lave been done Tne-e

cOmiddotJld have been dye raclgs there cOlld have

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been a~l kinds of evidence hey could have

taken samples they could have done

quantitative analysis There is no chemical

evidence there is no physical evidence there

is no biological evidence that connecs this

to a navigable water f and therein lies the

problem

JJDGE TO~GAST Justa if I

could follow up on that before we get back to

cred~bility iss~es

MS HLCHER Okay

JUDGE WOLGAST Are you saying that

the fact they floTlI throJgh ditches is a

jurisdictional problem

MS 1tILCHER Not particularly

JUXE vIOLGASI And the1 get ~ ing

back to the testimony that Judge Sheehan was

referring to where JIdge Morar was referring

to the testimony of Mr Rhodes and Mr Martin

that the property provides flood storage flow

moderaion carbOIl sequestration vlater

purification denitrification what I want to

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undsystard aboJt your argument 1s are these

aspects insufficient or would they be

sufficient if in your mind there was more

evidence of the connection of these attributes

to the Nansemond or Elizabeth Rivers

MS iILCHER EPA -- the govenment

cant simply say that wetlands are valuable

because they are-- help prevent flooding and

not show that they would help prevent flooding

in this particular case and that it would

significantly help prevent flooding in t~is

partcular case lrJha ttey have done toe

Drie is to siIply lay down he well-knoJl

attributes a~d valuable functions and values

of wetlands and said therefore this is

having a significant effect on navigable

~ivers Theye is not a co~~ection they have

lot snoltm by a1y credible evidence cause and

effect of any sigrifcant iIEpact tpon thef

navigable rivers

JUDGE SHEEHAN But you make

again a very theoretical argument about the

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fact Chat the goverruuent just argues wetlands

fgelerally but werer t government wi tnesses

crawling allover this property mul iple

times testify~ng at great lengtl lots of

exhibits aerials historc maps and

everythi~g else to show in this case fo~ this

property there was trat link Its hard to

believe with all that 11Bssive Estimony and

getting to ~he credibility issue that he

governrrent doesn~t have a pretty solid case

rat hat nexus sat) sfyilg the Kennedy test

exists

MS WILCHER It is hard to

believe I totally agree It is hard to

believe Tle governmert has had unfettered

aCCess to this property for over a decade and

have failed 0 develop flmr drainage elements

they cant show how illuch flows off the site

they cant show vhat type of sediment runoff

might have occurred at ~he site ~hey ca~tt

show what type of water retention is teld Jy

the site t~ey have been unable to show any

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ecoogical cC1nection 1tith regard to wildlife

there was a Woodcock seen on the site There

is absolutely -- and its amazing to me hat

tr~ere is a void

JUDGE STEIN But isnt the test a

nexus a significant nexus not this

sJbstantial inpacts est that I hear wove]

through some of your statements and T dont

-- when I go back and I look at the Kennedy

opinion you knot] and some of he hings t1at

are cited I dont necessarily see that that

test requires the level of proof that youre

stggesing is reqJired ny hat test So

perhaps you could explain to me based on the

Kennedy opinion how you get from there to the

level of proof Lhat you re a5~ing for f just to

establish jurisdiction

MS WILCHER Certainly

JUDGE STEIN I mean I we re not

here to determire you know penalty or

anything else were here just to figure out

if youre even i~ tbe door

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MS IILCHER Yes understand

Ie 1 1 what Justice Kennedy said was to talk

abmlt he fJay the Corps nac typically

regulated wetlalds and then to say absent

more speciic regulations however the Corps

must establish a significant nexus on a case

by case bBSS wler it seeks to regulate

wetlands based on adjacency to non-navigable

tributaries and then it goes on to say given

the potential over breath of the Corps yen s

regulations this showing is necessary to

avoid unreasoDable applications of the

statute

The justice wrote I no~ just a

~exus if the COurt had only said there has to

be a nexus then o~e would have a different

burden of proof in this case the court said

a significant nexus and we have to assnne

that a significant nexus is meaningful that

those words mean SOIEethi1g So theres a -- at

least a two-step process One to show that

theres a nexus and the other is to show that

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its significant and that is what the record

is devoid 0 in this particular case

JUDGE SlEIN But its not a

significa1t impact its a significant nexus

MS iILCHER Thats right a

significant nexus And the sigrificart rexus

must -- and if YOu read through the rest of

the case it talks abolt hm -- that in order

to regulate land as water there must be some

type of impact on the water

JUDGE SHEEHAN Justice Kennedy

also uses a phrase that think is pertinent

here r he says that the how -- how the proof is

determined has to be done in a practical way

ard i almost sounds as if what you I re

requiing is that the governrrent set up flow

meers or pour a vial of discharge into a

ditch and see if it eventually ends up in the

Chesapeake or do something on a very

impractical scale to prove ~he connectio~

MS WILCHER You know this is a

really important issue The governrrent has to

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do sOIething oJer than to make allegations r

especially in a case where youpoundre dealing with

constitutional issues such as privae property

rights and how one car jse his own property

or hers and in this case I there are lots of

things tha~ EPA historically has done for

ypcal NPDES cases But when you before he

Board on a NPDES case theres at least some

measure If they had had pictures that there

las a plurne comir_g off of this wetlar~d if

theyd done any flow calculations if theyd

had any physical chemical biological

evidence of a nexJS and a signiican- nexus to

the navigable waters which again( are not the

ditches they are the ditches that flow to the

creek that flow 0 the creek that flow 0 the

navigable waters j then it would be a different

case but that is not what has happened in

this case

JUDGE IJOLGAST Well as you say

the goverIl1lent obviously has the burden of

proof i~ a~ eLfo~cerne~t case l but is this the

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same type of evidence that you thirk a

_a~Qowne~ should Lndertake I mean obviouslY

they have the burden to obtain a permit where

there is potential jurisdiction

I~S ~JILCaER Btt if the person

doesnt obtain a permit ~~ and the government

thinks that theyre i~ error again the

government always has the burden of proof

JUDGE vJOLGAST Right but J 1m

talking about getting a -- yOJ know starding

in the landowners shoes before weve ever

gotten to an enforceme1t case it -- it I

mean I ~h~nk theres some iSS48 with getting

back to the Supreme Court case that one of

he things that were concerned about - at

least lJustice Scalia pointed to was how much

evidence time money it takes to vJOrk

thro~gh ~h~s process and it sou~ds like the

yeLl know r the advocacy here is that there

should be more not less

)15 ~JLC1ER There stou1d be

something dore by the government in thi s

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regayd to actually prove a nexus and a

sgnificant nexus ard in this ease I canr

assuye you Judge Wolgast that the l~downer

has go~e above and beyond the oall of duty

going to the Corps time after ti~e having the

Corps ou to tr~e site and having spent talk

about the time and money and investmert having

his case as understand it having spent

over $800 000 in litiga~ion costs to try to

pr-otect what was legal at tl~e time that it was

aone and so -- so there is a burden

The governme1t has the burden aid

in this case in this par~icular case they

failed to meel it I don I t know why I haven [t

been involved that lor~g ~ would speculate

tl1at by the time he Rapanos case cane along

it V~as jlSt too hard to go back and find the

type of probative evidence that would carry

the cay_

I do not necessaily thirk that

its an impossible tas~ There have been ot~er

cases that ve reviewed aihere the goverrUent

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has irtroduced evidence of the poundows tr~e

amount of drainage that has occurred how much

water might be taken up by a wetland area$ but

none of that was done in thi s particular case

and again we can only speculated why that

was the case

JDDGE STIN How does tr_s S~xth

Circuit decision in the Cundl f f matter bear on

your view that the -- you need some sort of

laboratocy araysis to prove h~s7

MS ~VILCHER in that

particular easel you dont have as I ~ecall

the -- the disarce roIT a navigable waer

tha t we have here [ and I think the farther you

are away from a navigable water the harder it

is 0 prove tha~ theres any impact on that

navigable water and in this -- again in this

case they are far away from a navigable

water and I think toe reaSC1 tha~ we don

see the p=oof is because its not there itS

not developable and that is why it is not

Cere Did yOl wart De to ~~

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JUDGE STEIN I do wact you to get

the credibility question

MS bull WILCHER I dian t t want to

forget your - shy

JUDGE STEIN No while we we~e on

this topic why cor t t yOJ addres s the

credibility question

MS vILCHER I think its an

important question IC t S a real important

question and that is simply that s even though

the regtllatior~s do provide that typicaily when

the ALJ hears the witnesses and makes

determinations 0 ~~eir credib~~ity that

typically this Board will defer to that

However in this case a carefctl review of the

record shows that the ALJs just got it wrong

and it is within this Boards prerogative to

look at the -- look at t1e factors tha

that the ALJs used in making their

deterninatior and make a judgreJt aboJt

wl1ether those factors are sufficient

A couple of examples There was a

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mar who had Iived OT the farm for h~rty years

who testified that he I d walked over the farm

for thir~y years and testified that in fact

Ithe streams J or the drainage di tches were

intermittent in nature and did not carry water

I - 1 h d - a11 th e trre bull e __ t e JU ge ~n tHe QeClS10n

said well I think hes a nice man I think

hes beholden to the Smi ths f and he was just

Ollt or a wa so totally just discounted his

testimony saying he WBS just out on a walkJ

as if that meant t~at somebodywQuldnt no~ice

DGE ~vOGAST ~ Are yot saying

though that it would have to carry water all

tre time

MS vHLCHER No no But but

it f s clearly -- is Eot a navigable water lor

it is adjacent nor is the wetland adjacent to

a navigable water in this case It flows

anything t~at =lows opound= of t~at a~ea that has

been considered to be wetland by the

goverr-Uent flows -rxough drainage ditches

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that are only intermittent in nature and

~herefore are ~ot co~sidered to be navigable

watsYs clea~ly urder the Rapanos decison

JUDGE SHEEHAN But if the man

walking the land said that they were

intermittent and youre saying intermittent

doesnt matter

I~S IgtlILCHER Were saying that -shy

Judge Cha~eski as I recall said tha~ there

was a c01tinuOU5 flow of 5088 kind isnt that

-- d~~lt J~dge Char~eski say that

WOLGAST lrJell Justice

Scalia said that even after that -shy

HS WILCHER Right right

JUDGE WOLGASl That that

seasonal flow could establish jurisdiction

~nder the pluralitoes test

148 t-JILCEER BJt there s not beenj

seascnal flow established -=-n this case Yot

have somebody going out there en particular

days after these ditches have been dug which

we all know alter the flow in drainage after

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the eLi tches are dug ftJaer goes to the lowest

level and so theres going to be more water

draining OU= of there t~a~ ~here would have

been in 1998 and 1999 and that -- that is

clear ~tat ~tere is no ev~de~ce ac the time

this was done they were -- they were anything

but inerYlitten and here l s no j1risdictiola1

connection that they have proven to date

JUDGE ~JOLGAST And what do you

think they would have had to have shown to

show seasonal flow

MS ~IILCHER Well they could

have done something more than go out there

nine times over tbe course of a year rrhey

could have had aerial photographs taken Ihey

cod have -- weil first yOl have the uSGS -shy

you have the USGS maps as showing its

inteYrnittent and theres lierally no

testimony en the record right now to show that

theyre anything but interrrdtent Ot-her than

to say that if somebody goes out there ~ine

Cimes and looks at the flow and sees water

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then -- agair~1 keeping ir mind this was years

atel 1_8 dainage d=- tches tver-e dtg ha t were

channeling more water into the old one through

seven drainage areas there B nothing tof

establish what was the~e at ~he time in 1998

a~d 1999

JUDGE VlOLG~rST And I think

isnt this what courts are struggling with in

the sense that its -- its one thing to say

~ts ~~ter~itte~tf b~t is that good enough I

mean I dont you have to figure out just how

much flow in you know what period of time

or the idea that -- I dont -- if someoae

says t~at its intermitte~t Irr not sure that

means its ir~ or out without further evidence

MS WILCHER Right Well that

shows really the that shows arguably a

cQnYlecion Bu how rrlcr =ow is going through

there whether sediment loading is going

through there whether theres an ecological

connection through there all these whethers

lead to whether t~e~e is a sig~ificant nex~s

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to a navigable water and if you look at some

of the other cases ~here has been that kiLd of

information introduced and in this case there

is none

JUDGE vJOLG1ST hhat case are you

thinking of

MS vJILCiER I thirki1g maybe

t was the Precon case ir - - in the Eastern

District of Virginia Its on appeal in the

Fourth Circuit I may r~ve been ~hat BJt

I 11 be happy to provide some cases -- a case

or cases later on that show the type of

evidence that tas been introdJced because I

remember reading about them and cant think of

the name right now

TlDGE SHEEIiAN I Vant to go back

for a moment to Judge Stein J s question about

credibility

gtIS CLCHER YOS

JUDGE SHEEHAN So ALJ Moran sat

through days and days of testimony on the

bench a lot of pecple ~n ~~at witness chair

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Hes there hes on he scere hes

~nterpreting the way the witnesses speak and

their basic credibility which you can only do

face to face in that way Wha~ is it about

what happened there that causes you to think

theres sOne way or some reason for as not to

credit the typ~cal deferehce we would extend

There must be some exception here that we ~eed

0 know about for that to happen

MS WLCHER tAJel1 r ard there are

a few facts that I think would be relevant to

your consideration in that case In the first

instance some of these wi~nesses that the ALJ

deter~ined were not credible --Jere stipJlated

as being expert vtitnesses and hat shows at

least sorre level of credibility in the mind of

the government w th regaro to whetJ~er they

were experts in the field

Second some of the criticisms

in one case a criticism that an ALJ made of an

expert wi tness was that he had not beer~ 0 the

site often enocgh yet vith one of the

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gover~ors -~ goverG~entls expert witnesses

that person had been to the site less times

t1an t1e Srith Farms expert witress A1C SO

there is a confounding sense that in this

particular case for whatever reason if the

experts agreed ~ th r~e goverr_rne1t f they were

credible and that if they di~~t they were

not

It just seems highly unlikely that

every single witness iltroduced by Smith

Far~s and Ive had the pleasure of working

wi th Mr Boyd and it lS just I think

statistically urEkely that one could End

that many unmiddotmiddotmiddotcredible witnesses and in thisf

case I do not believe that they were not

credib2e I believe they were as credible ald

as I mentioned in some cases were stipulated

in beirg expert w~t~esses ~~

JUDGE SHEEHAN So you didnt

believe they were

HS WICHER I did not bel ieve

they were not credible so I believed that

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they were credible And -- and it is sOIEewhat

confoundirg other than to say that the

closest thing that I could figure out was that

if hey supported t~e governments viev tey

were credible and if they did not support the

governments Vlew I they were not

CJDGE trrOGAST But dien f t Judge

Moran find that -- and to generalize ---- that

the witnesses failed to establish that to the

exent t1ere were weta1ds they -lere isolated

by on-hydric soil lasnt that a central part

of his credibility determination

MS ~vILCHER Well trat S O1e of

the findings that Judge Moran made but in

this paricular case keep in mind its not

Smi Parms tha-c has 0 show that there is a

break or a barrier -- its the government who

has to show that the~e is a con~ection

JUDGE liOLGAST Of

understand Right

HS IIILCHER So theres cerainly

pockets of non-hyd~ic soil in tte area and

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for SOle reaSCl EPA _ ar~d again this is just

ki~d of amazing to me

spent this long on that EPA did not go out

there and do a typical delneaion of the

site and this is something that is cypically

done Its amazing that EPA did not issue a

cease and desist order as soon as t~ey ~~ew

abouc it There are many things that to me

are amazing about this case that quite

frarky I are he easor that I came nere to

argue it Because lIm a strong believer in

protecting the Clean Water Act and in

protec~ing lteta-ds and you mayor may lOot

know from my history I I bear a lot of scars

from having trIown myself in the body of

wetlands protection bac~ in the days ana I

still believe its an important thing to do

But I also believe its important to follow

~~e rule of law and ~n chis case Mr Boyd

made every effort to follow the rule of law

and I bel ieve he did and when it did not work

out tte way that EPA wanted the law to be

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this enforcement action came forward at a

time -- and had they intervened early on i~

t~is case they cou~d have stopped They knew

months before the work was cOITpleted -- hey

knew months before the work was completed that

there was ditching and draining going on

t~ere and trey did no move in quickly to try

to resolve that case ar~d they could have -shy

they could have stopped most of the so called

harm that they are now alleging but chose not

to do so ~~ey dd ~ot do a deineaLion they

did not inroduce proof that this particular

part of property has a significant nexus to

jurisdictional waters of the United States to

a navigable water of the United States I and

thats the reason I~ he~e

JJDGE VJOLGASI I see your time is

expired if theres no other questions

MS WILCHER Thank you

MS S~J~ET~ Good morning You=

Honors My name is Stefania Shaliat and I

represent Region III in this matter

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specifically the complainants who are the

division directors for the Environmental

Assessment a1d Irr~ovation Divisio1 and he

vater Protection Division I at EPA Regio11 III

With me at counsel table Id like to

i~troduce DO1la Carner-Tal f who is regulatory

co-msel for the Nc-folk District Army Corps of

Engineers and Karen ~lendelowskl gt who is with

the office of general cour~sel and also we

have a disirglshed g1e8 1$ d lke to

introd~ce -- si~~ing behind me is Dr Dennis

Whigham with the Smithsonian Environmental

Resea=cr Cente- Your Honors responders have

do~e ~~ if I ca~ get in a couple points -- a

good job of obfuscating what are really very I

very simple facts here The simple facts are

hat these are tllelands perfouuiq docurrenced

functions that are delivered to tributaries

These wetlands are adj acent physically

trose trib-ltaries f ard those

tr lbtacies flow to traditiorally navigable

waters to the West 2600 feet away to the

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East 4200 feet away In other words the are

wetlands adjacent to tributaries that low

waki1g clstance to tr-adi ional1y navigable

waters These Vetlfu1ds were jurisdictional

under SWANCC as respondent conceded in Clean

~later Act Appeal mmber 05-05 when respondent

reseved argll1snt on jtrisdicto1 but chose

not to raise it un~il there was a change in

case law They continue to be jurisdictional

under any standard enunciated by he Supreme

Court in Rap~~os The qJan~u~ of proof offeree

by the complaina1ts i1 this matter not only

exceeds preponderance of the evidence it

exceeds any quantum of proof required by

Rapanos In fact t far exceeds it Another

thirg that is obscured in the ar9J11ent here by

the respondents is that up until 2007

respondents had a different set of expert

witnesses It las tlose expert witresses that

coroplainalts stipulated 1heir expertise was

in wetlands identification and the connection

of wetlands to waters of the uniced States

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Ihose witnesses largely agee with

complainac1t I s version of the facts on the

ground ae-d i wasnt until 2007 when

respondents hired a new set of expert

witnesses that any real dispute arose about

what exactly was going on in the site There

was dispute about ithat hat nean f but not

exacly what the physical characteristics of

t21e si te ere

J1DGE WOLGAST Counsel coud you

address Ms wilchers points that while there

may be flow moderation carbon sequestration

there may be some evidence that the government

hasnt shmlTI a nexus between those

characterist~cs and the ~avigable waters

vIS SHAME Sure First of alI

the evi6erce of Je fuYlctions beirg performed

on this S1 te is not speculative There are

photo after photo and testimony after

testimony the governments evidence is based

or established scientific literature that

identifies something called field indicators

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-- physical characteristcs on the ground -shy

that when identified correlate to a specific

functi~n being formed by the wetland In this

case there are three Tr~e first was fow

noderaiou and one of the physical

characteristics thez-e would be such things as

ponding you see a lot of later being

captured in low levels depressional levels

withir the wetland Tle record conta1s dozens

of photos of that The secord is

denitrification and that is the microbes

llptaking nitrogen in the soil That indicator

is something called modelirg i1 he soil It sI

a red spotch Essentially it IEeans that iron

is there That evidence comes not only from

the complainants but if one were to reviel

the soi 18 expert froIT respordent Dr Parkers

O~ I-fr arlter f s firs expe~t repo-t ir

20C3 he describes modeling in his sails The

third is primary production That is the1

contribution of a food source Taking

transforming organics that a2e in the _- in

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nature into a food source in water that then

tralsports that food source dowYlsream to

higher trophic organisms The best evidence of

that actually comes from one of respondents

experts Dr Cahoot 1110 photographed it

leaving the site I cant find the photo at

the marneYlt f blt I 11 describe what he says

Foaing a he confluence of the ditch

leaving the property with ditches along the

property boundary near the railroad This foam

vias also sampled and examined microscopically

--- it contained primary plant debris some

peller ald rllnero-lS sma oil droplets These

oil droplets in my opinion were probably

plant oils derived froI decomposition of the

organic matter in this area That description

correlates perfectly with the description in

the testimony in tZ1e remand hearng about what

primary production s the transport of

particulate and dissolved organics downstream

as a food sOJce So the -Jse 0 the -- t~1e

functions this case are not speculative

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theyre clearly being per-formed theyre

clearly being cocC1ented as beir~g perforrred on

this wetland Theres also evidence of the

hydrologic connection between this wetland

the ibuaries and the downst-eam

trad~tionally r~avigable waers Again that

comes both frOIE complainant ~ s experts as well

as some of respondents experts one of

respondent I s experts described tr_at hydrologic

co~nectio3 as such He descrbed the wetland

as a table tcp on which somebody pours water

the water comes off of that table top into

the ditches and then tansports down to the

taditional1y navigable waers The sane

expert lgtIr Wolf also agreed that the

wetlands on the site were in fact

hydrologically conYlected to the di tches wr~ich

forrr tributaries and lJlere n fact adjacs1t to

them So we also have fUTIction ard we have

transport Now with respect to Ms Wilchers

corrment -shy

JUJGE WOLGAS~ is YoDr

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posi tion on the type of evidence that you

need to show nexus of

characteristics you see on site to the

navigable waters

gt1S SHAtvET My positio1 is tha we

met it exactly and I would refer you to

Justice Kennedys opinion Justice Kenledy

ide~tified the type of functions that he would

consider to form a significant nexus

traditional navigable waters and those are

p~ecisely the functions that were identified

on this site Specifically Justice Ker-nedy

refers to slowirg COt-C of surface runoff r

filtration and purification -- that would be

in on 547 US 773 to 75 He sta~es with respect

to weta1ds f the rationale for the Cleal ~fater

Act regulation is as the Corps as recognized

that vetlands can perforrl cri tica2 functioES

re2-ated to the integrity of other waters

functions such as pollutant trapping -- in

other words l denirifcatior~ -- flood control

flow moderation and ruriOff storage

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Ther-efore the types of functions that we

docrraented as beng performed or this site are

precisely the ypes of unctiors tha Jusice

Ken1edy ide1tified J in his opinion as the

type of functions that form a significant

nexus

JUDGE SHEEHAN In in your

brief on page 46 you say that the Kennedy

Test requiEs weta1ds cont-ibutions to the

physical c1emical or biologic in-egrity of

doOrIlstream waters -- is it nor or Hand Your

brief says or

MS SHAMET The brief says II or -shy

JUDGE SHEEHAN Because if it can

De just one of those -shy

SHA4ET I believe Justice

Kennedy did use and however it is c2ear

that he does not require a function to

contribute to all ~hree factors and chats

clear from the function he identifies

JUDGE SHEEHAN Then why did he say

and

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MS SHAMET I think he said and II

but he had a comraa and a1d he was -eferring

to a list of examples rather than a standard

i1ith respect to Ms Wilchers cormnent that we

dont have any photographs of pltLnes as I

indicatedf one were to trt 0 R Ex 28 f

which llnfortunatey I can f find right now I

ltlhich is Respondent 1 s Exhibit 28 from the

first hearing in 2003 Dr Cahoon provides a

picture of that plume himself I would also

point out that with respect to

denitriication one wouldnt expect to see a

pInrr -- thats the exact point its to hold

Che nitrogen on the wetland -lot send it

downstream

JUDGE STEIN How is the Rapanos

significant nexus test d_fferent if at all

=rom the nexus i~ Rivervew Rverside

Bayview

MS SHAMEl Riverside Bayvie

assumed a nexus based upon adjacencYi in this

case lJustice Kennedy has asked that we

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actually go forward and establish that the

nexus exists rather than simply assuming itI

based On adjacency

JUDGE SHEEHamp~ on page 41 of your

brief you quote some of the tesciroo1Y of the

first ALJ hearing I which sounds a lit~le more

entative to me tha1 youre souidir_g today

about the substa1tial nexus test being met

The brief~ at page 41 reads that these

wetlands are more likely to perform

denitrification more likely to allow for

suspended settlements -- sediments to settle

out~ more likely to support a different suite

of wildlife species that to me is

lar-guage ~rats ~ot qui~e as powerful as

saying there is a substantial nexus met here

that just sounds -- can yo~ address what seems

to be more diffident language in your brief

than what youre articulating today

MS SHAMET Well as Your Honor

pointed out T the language that you pointed to

in the brief is from the 2003 hearing before

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tr~e Rapanos case As the Board is avlare J he

EPP~ agreed and argued that the evidence to

satisfy Rapanos had not been fl11y developed

as of 2003 and this precisely why we

requested a remand

JUDGE SHEEHAN But youre cit i ng

it here filed long after Rapanos as if its

still your position

MS SHAME~ I cited a lot of other

evidence as lJell Your Honor incLuding the

testimory of Mr Rhodes he testi~cny of Dr

~fhigham and the testimony the f1Tther

estimony of Hr Mart So while that is a

piece of evidence it is certainly not the

only evidence cited in our brief

JUDGE WOLGAS~ ~o go back to the

point you were making earlier about how the -shy

in essence the three-part test is the same

type of evidence yo~ would look to to

establish sign~ficant nexus ard Justice

Kernedy did seer to speak to hat saying much

the sarre evidence I referring to tre Corps ssect

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delineation manual type evidence should

P8nnit the establishment of a significant

nexus witr navigable wates

particularly if supplemented by further

ev~dence abou~ the significance of the

tributaries to which the wetlands are

cO11ected How does the gove-nment interpret

the latter part of that quote

MS SILllltlECmiddot I think that the

government needs to show and has shown in

this case that there is an ability of those

trihttayies Co conect the wetlands to a

traditionally navigable water in such a way

that the poundtnctions are delivered In this case

we have certainly shown the hydrologic

cO1nect=-o1 some of respondents expe-ts have

agreed with us that that connection exists and

tha there is sufic8Ylt ~hat there is

water exchange there and weve also shown

that heres proxirrity here again these are

walking distance to traditionally navigable

waters this is not the Rapanos case where it

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traveled 32 miles So we think we have met

that burden here by sho~Jing the hydrologic

connection and showing that these tributaries

are capable of delivering the function With

respect to cr-edibi=-ity and he points that

Your HOlors asked of AS Wilcher I would just

point out tha~ lTudge lvlorans credibility

determination was based on demeanor and also

on the facts of this case An important fact

to note for insta11ce is in the firstF

r~earing in 2003 respondent I s soils exper

who laid a g=id fOJnc 53 ou 55 sarnples

hydric The only two that were non-hydric had

JUDGE STEIN I couldnt hear you

MS SHApoundT Had 53 Oelt of 55 soil

sa~ples he identified as hydric in the site

soEs or ei ther side In the secord heaocilg

Dr Pierce testified that there was

essentially non-hydric soils everywhere And

on cross-examination he was asked didn t youI

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find any hydric soils and he said oc yeah

I found them I just didnt click on my GS

locator and ider~tify where they were and I

just didn It report them He only reported the

non-hydric soEs That is the kind of thing

that happened that caused Jtdge l-loran 0 find

a lack of c-edibility vvlth respect to 9r

Straw Dr Straws expert report disc1ssed

undulations in the landscape that he

interpreted to mean ere were no wetlands

tlere On the sand he conceded trat there

were no u1dulaions on tr~e landscape -- he had

mis~nterpreted the aeria= photo More

importantly he conceded ~hat he knew about

ha t erroy before the hearing and leverf

corrected it until cross-exa~ination Judge

Moran had ample basis for finding no

credibility on those witnesses

JUDGE SEIN Is it your view tha~

the Board has no authority to overrale an

ALJs credibility determination

MS SHAl-1ET No YOJr Honor the

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Board reviews he case de novo lffuile the

Board certainly defer to the ALJ r s credibili ty

determination what I run saying that in this

case t~ere is no basis for overturn~~g it

JUDGE STEIl If we were to

overturn it -- a credibility determination

what kinds of factors r it your view s1ould 18

be taking into aCCo4nt

MS S~~~ET I would think you

oelld be looking to see whether or not the ALJ

has a rational basis oh gosh I hate to use

legal standards like that -- but some sort of

bass or hich he based his credibiliy

deerrtination that he explained why there was

a lack of credibility and I think in this

case he did so amply

JUDGE SHEEHAJ If Ms v~i 1 cher S

correct characterizing the way testimony

cedibclity went i soanced almost like a

hundred percent credit to government

witnesses and practically zero to

respondens witnesses f tratg acctrate

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jus stipulat-=-ng 0 trat assumption - - if

t~atfs accu~ate would that be a basis fer not

allcwing deerence to Jdge Morans

credibility determinations if its so

lopsided

ocs SH_~ET In this case I would

say no just simply because in this case we

have a classic battle of the experts I but

oddly enough the ba~~ling experts are al on

respondents side And )hat we have are

experts whD ~estif~ed in 2007 who flat

disagreed wit the testimony of respordent S

experts in 2003 without any atterrpt by the

2007 experts or respondents to reconcie

that testiITony Given that circumstance it sf

not surp-isirg that the experts in 2007 s

testimony were given very litte weight One

of the things that Hs ltJilcher referred 0 was

unfettered access to the site If anyone had

u~fettered access to the site~ it was

respondent and yet there are no photos in the

record showing the streaL~S leaving the site

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dry except during a drought

JUDGE VOLGAST But her point was

tha t the goverrunert ~as the bmiddoturden here

MS SHlHEI And the burden -- he

government has met the burden In fact in

this case the preponderance 0 the evidence

literally the only evidence other than

testirrony by the site owner testimony by

someone who walks around a three-hu1dred-acre

site hunting and looki1g for damage in che

fieds which lS what he estified he was

doing there and photographs taken during a

d--ought he oV9rtlhe=Iilg evidence is that the

waters do flow on a regular basis First of

all these waers have been napped the

waters leaving the site -- as flovving water by

USGS for hal f a century

JUDGE vIOLGAST Yo mentioned that

the waters flow on a regular basis Is that a

conir~uols bas~s

MS SHAMET We would say it would

be part of every year Your Honor

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JUDGE SHEEHAJ Tlen W1Y 18 that

necessarily continual The Scalia Test now

that veve 901e to continual flow is jilst

that -- there has to be continual flow He

says even the least significant of the lake

river ocealS or streams the four water

bodies the least significant steams has to

have COlticua you

repeatedly say - make other instances that

are to me a lot less cor~fdent t1~an what

Scalia seems to deilland You say page 31 the

drains flow at least part of every yeari page

35 at least SOme portion of every year at

least at least at least it comes up

repeated-ly in YOlr brief vlhich couid be just

one rain event So theres one rain at least

it flows one or two days after the rain aod

thats certainly a far cry I would argue

from continual So can you address the seeming

gap between your statemen~s and what Scalia

seems to demand as far as continual flow

~S SHk1ET Ie would state that

Your

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Justice Sca~ia described re1ativey permanent

wateYs He made pretty clear wrat teose were

He did~t require any specific n~~er of days

of flow -- what he did say was common sense

and common usage distinguished between a wash

and a seasoral river and tha f s in foot1ote

five respondent likes to use the term

intermitten~ a lot but the one thing it is

clear from footnote 5 is that Justice Scalia

does not give the term intermittent any

ocegulatoY import trJhy Because he

specifically decli~ed ~o define it

JUDGE SHEEHAN Why doesnt he give

it regulatory import when at least seven

tirres by ely count in his opinion he says

iEtermi tent waters do not cca11 fy as

jurisdictional -- he even calls it an oxymQron

ac one point

~S SHAMET Even though he does

not -- he declines ~o defihe it He says that

thee are defiritions 0 nterrnttent bu he

sees 10 reason to identify what tlose are

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here I and then he specifically says I We have

no occasion in this litigation to decide

exacty whe1 he cryirg up of a streambed is

continuous and frequent enough to disqualify

tle channel as a water 0 the Cnited States

~jUDGE SHEEI-IAN I know we can t -shy

aobody knows what intermitter~t meaJs with

aOsol~te rigor thas obviously subject to

interpretation But the fact is he

contlnmiddotually rejects intermitten~ waters

whatever that Ireans as jurisdictional a1d

you say intermittent doesnt matter I dont

know how yot can say lat in the face cf al

his statements that intermittent does w~tter

HS SHAMET I think the evidence

dernorstrates pretty clearly that ther-e is

regular flow on a regular basis in these

wateTs A good exaTIple

JUDGE SHEEH1ll~ Im not talking

about the eviderce 1lT talking about the

standard

MS SHAIjET The standard lS that

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there has to be a relatvely pe-mar_ent tvater

It cant be a wash it cant be someLhing that

flows only occasionally only in response co

a very strong rainfall i~ cant be a gutter

It has to be a geographic feature ~~d in this

case we have USGS mapping these as geographic

features conainng Vlaer for over ffty

years which if thatis not relatively

permanent I In not qui te sure what would be

JUDGE SHEEHAN C-ne1 how else - shy

why else -- why is it that you cannot muster

more behind your argument that these are

lowing dyains tha1 just saying at least part

of the year continually You never say its

continual you never say its relatively

permanert ane not interrrittert you seem to

stay away from saying that and it seems

purposeful because it happens so frequently

1 S SHAHET ~J e dont

over~exaggerate our evidence we say what it

is And in this case what we r re saying is Ie

agree hsse styeams dry up for part of ~he

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year VJe f ve never argued that these were

perennial streams because theyre not They

are streams that only flow for part of the

year But part of the year is good enough

1nder Jtstice Scalia f s test These are rot

washes theyre ~ot t ckles When they flow

t1ey flow As Jlldge Mo-an pointed out I the

record is replete wi th photos of these streams

flowing and floling wi th a good arnount ofI

water them Now for exanpJe -shy

JUDGE SHEEHlll Flowing at least

part of the year right

MS SHAME~ Flowirg at least part

of the year If I could get the photo up An

example is ~his series of photos~ if we can

get it up If not Ill jus give tre exhibit

numbers Not a perfect picture This photo was

taken in December 2006 As you can see

theres visible flow in the stream A1d this

is Complainants Exhibit 328 co~plai~ants

Ex-hibit 308 - sarre sreart same location you

can tell by the cross January 07 J still

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lt- Low~ng

JUDGE SHEElI1N ~Iha t does tha t

realy prove YOJ cOl-=d go out right after a

rain as apparently happenedi apparently Dr

Whigham went out afte rain irw 07 ard Judge

Moran noted that he was out two days after a

big rain so naturally the drains were full

DJ showing us occasiQral ~-

IS SHAlyenjET If you can show four

sraight lonths of floN f think youre

probaby doing pretty good This is O1e of

respondent I S exhibits This is Dr Straws

photo ta~er_ in February 2007 This s

Respondents Exhibit 57pp

JUDGE VJOLGASI I (IT sory 1 whose

testimony was ~his

MS SHAMET Dr Straws The other

~h~ng that is documeGted -- Im just going to

go ahead and give you April April 2007 still

flow This is Complainants Exhibit 391 and

just ia case were llorried about March e

dont have March 2007 we have March 2003

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JIDGE SHEEHAN What drain is that

MS SHAMET This is Complainants

Exhibit 102L

JUDGE SHEEHAN What drain

MS SHAMET This is the portion of

drait six- seven as it leaves the si-se

crosses unde~~ea~h the railroad tracks to che

west and leaves the site We would also noce

chat in che 2003 hearing it was established

ard Judge ChaYlJeski acc6ped ordinary hig

watermark for the duration of the streams

leaving the site from the time they leave the

site cntil the time they wa~king distance

away hit traditionally navigable waters Now

whIle Justice Scalia said that existence of an

ordinary high waternark in and of itself does

not estabJish jurisdicion it does remair a

fact on the ground that shows the preseTlce of

f~c~J O-1r b~ief did cite in a footnote a

number of cases that describe what an ordinary

high water mark means and what it basically

means is that theres water there on enoJgh

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of a regular basis that theres no

vegetation and Dr Straw in poirtig at that

photo 57pp poined out that there was an

ordinary high watermark there e believe that

we 1ave s~ovm t2lougt t~1at eviderce as well is

that theres a regularity of flow through

these water bodies tJi th respect to Ms

~iilcher f s suprise that EA did not issue a

cease and desist order we in fact did we

issued an admif~istrative order n 2000 I

doat have the record citatio~ with me bu~ I

believe it was testified to in the 2003

tearilg In addi tion tlith respec 0 YIs

Wilchers conunent that EPA knew about the

operation before it was completed and didnt

intervere ~rat is also not correct In Culy

of 1999 EPA contacted respondent and

requested a site visit A- that time the work

was not done l6 site visit was scheduled in

-- they did the scheduling In July and the

visit was schedJled in September and in

August respor~dent brought equipment to the

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site and finished it up to present EPA with a

fai t accompli Couple other points There I s

bee~ a ~w~er of debates i~ t~e b~ie= about

briefs about whether or not there are in

fact wetlands on the sice and whether or not

they extend all the way to the tributaries

First of all ~othi~g in Rapanos altered the

EEe~gy and Water Developmert Appropriations

Act of 1993 Public Law 102377 106 Statutory

at Large 1315 in which Congress directed the

Corps of Eng~leers to use t~e 1987 wetlands

delineation nanual until a replacement manual

was established the courts have

recognized deference to the Corpss 1987

manual as the agencys interpretation of its

OvT regulatiors That manual was applied in

this case That manual when applied in this

case identifies wetlands throughout the site

JUDGE SHEEHAN A~e these -- are

these wetlands these draircs are tl_ey fed by

a1Y other source than rain

MS SHAMET No Your Honor These

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wetlands are what are called the top of the

watershed and this is why water flows in two

directions off of this site -- it flows both

west and east because its at the top of the

watershed

JUDGE SHEEHAN So any water on the

site its all rain-fed

MS SHAMET Yes The seasonality

of it however I can be established through

testimony regarding how the plants on this

site interact with that precipitation And

that testimony discusses the relationship

between whats called leap out and

transpiration In other words when the leaves

are on the trees the trees are uptaking water

from the ground -- from the groundwater table

and the groundwater table decreases and

thats why you see lower levels of water in

the summer During the winter when the leaves

are off the trees the trees are not

transpiring yet -- the water table rises and

thats why these are seasonally flowing

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s~reams and seasoca~ systems

JUDGE SHEEHAN Is there any

testirtony in the record abott the frequency of

the rain If rain is it is the source is

rain something on this property that occurs

f if -y times a year I a hundred t iITes a year t

two ~ines a year

MS SHAME= YOur Honor the

2003 record I believe there was an exhibit

and I apologize that I canZt name the exhibit

number for you right now that idenifies what

a one year storm is f what a three year stOrIT

is~ and l-lha a five year storm is in that

county and I apologize that I cant come up

with the exhibit number for you right now

JUDGE SHEEHAN vlell whats your

recolecion about it irhat it says eve if we

dont know the exhibit right now 111 just

trying to get a bead on how -- whether its

typically dry or typically wet there With

rain

MS SHAI-fET Your Hono f I cant

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recall I believe its under a~ inch -- around

a~ inch bu~ ca~t say foy su~e I look at

a lot of these for a let opound dipoundfeent areas

and I don~t want to get one mixed up with the

other

JUDGE ~]OGAST vTose testimony

we6 you reerrlg to gtThen you were discusslg

seasonality

MS SHAMET That was testimony of

Mr Martin It is at Remand Transcript 1912

~~d Rema~d Transcript 354

JUDGE STEI f he Board we~e to

conclude tha the evidence in this case meets

the Kennedy est is it necessary for theI

Board to consider whether the evidence meets

the plurality test

18 8HAMET Its the posiio1 of

EPA hat satisfying either test will establish

geographic jurisdiction under the Clean Water

Act As the Board noted all courts that have

so held have held tha~ if one meets re

Kennedy Tests then t~ats satised Ir

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a~swer actually to one of your questions I

1think Judge Steir there is one case It S an

unreported case out of the District of Hawaii

that has held that the Kennedy Test is lircited

to isolated waters and hat Y0l otherwise

apply to Scalia Test and that is Sierra vs

COJ1ty of Honolulu 2008 us Distcict EX=S

64262 1 and we would just note that that case

is inconsistent with the governing circuit

lali ts tle 9h Circuit and we believe its

inconsistent with Headlesburg and Moses but

you did ask lthether there was any case that

discussed he Sca=--~a test and that is the

only one at least Im aware of To answer

your question we believe t11at satisfying the

Kennedy Iest wOll-~d be sufficient and it would

not be necessary to reach the Scalia Test i

however we do beLeve thas weve satisfied

boh in this case and that ei ther test will do

it All through

JUDGE SHEEHAN Can you poi~t us iL

the record to what may not be a gap but it

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looks like a bit of a gap at least from the

briefs There I s a lot of testimony -- a lot of

discussion in your brief about the history

the history on the site water on the site

for exa~pe a 1953 p~cto s~ows di~ch O~e had

water I a 1937 photo one two and four had

water 1920 f USGS map had five -- ditch five

had water And then so we leap from sixty f

seventy years ago to the present decade

oegirning in 1999 middotJ~el a buner of inspectio1B

occurred mainly in 99 I and there was some

hopscotching and then they e~ded in 2007 So

he~e --- at least from the bries treres a

fairly big gap between the very very historic

taps and photos I and then ~he 1999-on

inspections and That they showed What about

the intervening

HS SHlIiCET - believe tha~ we also

discussed the USGS maps in 1994 which were

the most recent maps prior to activity As

YOUY HO1ort s aware from the Boards decisio1

in Bricks its inCUInbent upon us to show what

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the wates Jere lLlte before the activity f not

after the activity

JUDGE SHEE~~ Right bue the

before here is well before Thats my

~estion I dont see much except for that 94

map

MS SHAMET 1Ind we also used

aeria photography from 1994 and 1995 to

suppla--nent rphere I S been nO evidence in the

record that anything changed between 1994 and

1995 and the acivity in question which

started in I believe December of 98 or

Jaluary cf 1999 Ane I believe responcerts

agreed on the western side of the site in

their expert reper that the configuration

has been co~sistent si~ce 1949 up until the

time of the activity If there are any further

quest iors I woud jus smnnarize again by

pointing out that the facts this case are

veoy very siltple Ttese are wetlands theyre

clearly docJmented as wetlands the

preponderance of the evidence established the~

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as wetlands The preponderance of evidence -shy

tle overwhelming preponderance of the evidence

established that Chese wetlands are

performing actual documented functions The

very significant nexlJS that Justice Kennedy

described in h~s opinion The evidence in this

case shows that these wetlands are physically

adjacent to tributaries These are ditches

they are rranmade bu~ wo~d ~ust note that

iJ Ra9a~os itself the ditches were manmade

and no justices voted about that They flow

waking dista1ce to tradi tionally r~avigable

waters and 7hey are jllrisdictional Thank

you

MS v-JILCHER May it please the

cOJgt IrJClnt to t~lank couJsel for -aising the

tabletop analogy necause I forgot to This is

at a divide It is twenty feet above sea

level It 8 a watersted divde lke he

cortinental divide such hat water is flowirg

away it is not at the bottom of anything It

is nQ a marsh it is EDt a bog it is Lot a

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swarrcp i1-is is ar~ area where there is no

abili ty for the fJetland to capture and keep

pollutants out of a Y1avigable water because it

lrsef is a the very head of the watershed

And so trying 0 -- f you Jere able to be

there and see that~ you woald understand that

its not got the same type of functions and

values as some area ad) aca1t to below I

cach1g f pYEvertng po=-l-ltion cori1g frou a

10 of upstream areas While thats not

parricularly significant

JUDGE SHEEHIlll Havent yo just

helped ma~e te argumelOt that with gravity

lorking as it 60es any discharge of a

po1hltant up high wotld have made its way dOlJID

low f to a navigable water

MS WILCHER Yes so this is not

a rrounanols area fh=-s is a very slight

slope 11 fact to the naked eye it s almostt

hard to see a slope

JUDGE SHEEHAN Why does flow

matter as significant ~exus goes

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HS VrJCHER We11 the amount of

rur~offf qJie fr-ankly r~at would occur can

matte w~th regacd to that I do want 0

address a few absolutely incorrect things that

were stated and a couple misconceptions Let

me start with the mischaracterization of the

axpert witnesses that were hired in 2007

There seems to be some attempt to imply that

hiri1g differe1t expert witnesses to deal with

wtether this is ju-iscicto1al under Rapanos

is the same as having expert witnesses to

testify whether or not this area met the

former -- the actual definition of a wetland

Theyre two different things You can have a

wetland and it ca1 still not be

jClrisd~ctional So itS our hope that the

Board doesnt misconstrue that to say that by

hiring different fgtxperts you were trying to

get a different result which was not the case

-- its simply that if youre looking at how

much flow what the funcions of values ar-e

its a very differert thing fran sorteone who

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caL go ou~ a~d do the soil samples to

determine whats hydric and whats not

Seco~d jus~ as with regard to the

credibility of the witnesses just as there

were some -- a case perhaps whee ac-I expert

witness misstated something or changed its

rnird 1 so did some of the government I s expert

wi tnesses misstate something that then had to

be co-ected So did the brief that said

that took the word and and changed it to

Or witr regard to what Justice Kennedy hadI

written So I dont think that that in and of

itself has any significarce wi th regard to the

credibility of a witness tihen we are talking

abcu lGVJ fa this land is from a navigable

water counsel has mentioned that it S 2600I I

feet middotrhich is about half a mile or 4200

feet which is close to a mile -- thats not

to reac-t a navigabe water Let us be clear

That is to reach something that is not

necessarily an intermittent area4 EPA

stipulated l the stipulations dated

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Septewer 8th 03 that the water body

depicted and ]i5 is nurrbers 37 and 38 that

the water bodies depicted as these drainage

ditches on the site are depicted by the USGS

topa rEap at the 3allary Hill (Phonetic)

quadrangle as a broken blue line and that a

broken bae line denotes an irtermi ttent

stream These are intermittent streams ard as

Justice Sheehan has correctly noted Judge

Scalia says n mary circ1JIstarces that

intermittent streams are not jurisdictional

waters of the U S HmAever if we tun to irlhat

Custice Kennedy says thats rhece we kind of

get into the eitheror what we also find

there is a great discussion by Justice Kennedy

loiClself on 1e Ccrps definition of a

tributary Counsel was referring to the

drainage ditches as t-ibutaries ard Justice

Kennedy makes it c~ear that the corps

definition of tributary that was in effect at

tr~e time this decision was -rritter middotJsing he

high watermark was not appropriate I and would

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

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lead in fact to too broad a definition of what

was jurisdictional i~ and of itsef under the

Clean Water Act And theres we dont have

time to read it all but Im sure youve

probably ead it more tirres t~an have

aryay iled also jtst lke to mention tha

qui te frankly the evidence that has been

introduced in this case is the type of

evidence the Cour was r~opng would not be

Csedo prove jurisdictior on such an

important issue and that is its speculative

Its not -- were not arguing that wetlands

arent irrportart J we arent arguing that

wetlands aralt valuabe anc you know in

1990 wed say regulate because we had the

legal authority to do so This again is one

of tlese cases t1at sirrply wishing that 1_e

Q C d h dfe I~upreree o~r~ naa sal some ~~g 1 ~eren~ y

does not make it so This is what the Court

said -- thats the final word on the mater

whatever we decide ~t is bu it S tre firai

word and we c~~t change that regardless ofl

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRA-SCRIBERS

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how mportant or ho wrong someone may think

that it auld be To other quick points to

mention and that is EPA knew about this work

that was going on in February of 1999 and

that is in Jeff Lapps testimony tn Volume 1

page 167 through 169 so EA did kno Most of

t~e woyk was completed by Aprii or May of that

year before EPA every CaIne out to the site

and it wasnt until 2000 chat a notice of

violation was issued

JUDGE SHEEHamp1 So why does that

matte- That is an enforcement choice EPA makes

every day of the week and its not part of

the record i~ has nothing to do with whether

or not the Kennedy or Scalia or any other test

was met It really doesnt seem to bear on the

legal issues here

11S vIILCHER Fair enough For

purpose of ~his arg~~e~tl for t~e pur~ose of

today youre probaDly right J-luge But i~

does matcer if were talking about typical

practice of EPA and while Im well aware that

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202) 234middot4433 WASHINGTON DC 20005middot3701 wwwooalrgrO$$oom

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theres no requirement to take an enforcemer-t

action in a1ything less trar this period of

statute of limitations if in fact this was as

egregious and as violative and as problematic

as counsel appears to make it seem then EPA

did have every opportlli~ity to stOy that and

in ITany many cases vlhen EP1 sees a clear

violation of the law I they simply issues a

cease and desist order and in a case like

Rapanos in the Rapacos case you have people

who are going out anc taking action and

violating the wetlands law after theyve

received many state and federal cease and

desis orders so the facts of this case are

so di==ere~t from the facts of tha~ case Here

we have someone who was trying to comply with

the law as it was written at the time in my

view he was complying with the law as it was

wri ten at tlat time actG the fact tha EPA

didnt like ~he way the law was written and

what it said and what the courts were

deciding does not give hem authority to come

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

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in and regulate after the fact

JUDGE WOLGAST Counsel thank you

youre Olt of if you could make your

final point n just r~e next thirty secords J

I think you saie you had two I may be

mistaken

MS WILCHER Thank you Well we

are talkirg about jurisdictio1 I do think

tha tte overall =-ssJe of equity cotes i1to

play Ar~d knowing -- even krowing what the

jurisdiction was at the time of the activities

undertaken is really kind of an unc I Qar

matter Were still struggling with what

j Clrisdict iOI is Re9rettably toat s always

been t~e problem with this program

problem Igtli th this progral7l is that Corgress did

not give us clear direction and clear guidance

to either EPA or to the Boyds or to anyone

else in the regulative corrmlUnity and I t-hink

that s a factor certainly that the court Iblil

consider ard should corsder I when making a

decision on issues of liability and in this

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND tRANSCRIBERS

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case we would ask that you do so Thank you

J1DGE voLGAST Thank YOJ Cours

thank yOJ for your arguUent and the case is

now submitted

MS DURR All rise Session of the

Environmenta Appeals Board nmv stands

adjourned

(Whereupon the above-entitled

matter was concluded at 11 16 am)

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON DC 20005-3701 wwwnealrgrossoom

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Page 82

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Page 83

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CERTIFICATE

This lS to certify tha~ ~he foregoi~g transcript

in the matter of Snith Farm 3nterprises ILC

Hon Anna Wolgast E-wironmenta Appeals Judge

Date Jaly 20 2010

Flace Washingson DC

represens the ful and complete proceedings of the

aforementio1cd marter as reported and reduced to

typewriting

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCR8ERS

1323 rOOE iSLAND AVE_ NW (202 234-4433 WASHtGON DC 20005-3701 fNWnnalrqft)6Scom

Page 8: BEFORE THE ENVIRONMENTAL APPEALS BOARD IN ... By...MS. DURR: Environmental Appeals Board of the U~ited States Environmental Protec~ion Agency is now in session for oral argument, in

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impotant part of the decision AQd we can

talk about significant nexus next I if thatS

okay or if you wart me to go to significant

nexus now I be happy to do that

JUDGE STE=N No thats fine you

car talk about the pluralities first but le~

me ask you if we were to find that the

eviQe~ce met as J~dge Xoran oQ~6 the

significant nexus test but for whatever

reason it didnt meet the plura~ities test l

L1en vhat is middotJ~e OJtcorneuro

MS WILCHER Now thats a very

and no one knows In the Fourth Circuit

specifically what the outcome of that -- what

the outcome would De The Rapanos test

unfortunately in an effort to reign in

jurisdicion by the Corps and EPA created

probably as many questions as it did answer

and its created a lot additional

lit~gation So we I re here synpatretic 0

EPAS plight of having to try to figure out

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what that meanS l a~d the regulated community

also rying 0 figure oat what it means

becalse it is simply not clear The Marks case

that said that you would select the nost

Earow of the interpretations n a case such

as this might be difficult to apply because

it S hard to figure out itlhat the most 1arrowI

cefinition or application of this case would

be Obviously from Smith Farms standpoint

we would be really delighted shou~d =h~s board

decide to follow the Ilarks opinion and decide

that the Scalia test would be the most

appropiae here bJt vere perfecty preparedl

to address both

JUDGE WOLGAST B~t that is -- but

yot-e assuning trat the narrowest grounds

would then be the pluralities test as opposed

to say I the narrowest ground sin-ply being

tha hey rejeced the Rapanos evicence ald

remanded the case In terms of what -- what

five justices could agree to It Jas simply

ocemand

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MS rLCHER rgthat f S rigrLt Thats

right But i s presumed trat the CO-clrt s

reasoni1g ar~d the four -- the opinion of the

four written by Scalia the opinion of

Roberts the opinion of Justice Kennedy all

rreant sameL-hing J and hat is what we are left

to vlork within and -shy

TUDGE SHEEHAN What do you think

cf the governme~ts argument trat either test

can apply as the First and Eighth Circuits

have held

MS WI~CHER well clearly a

nillnber of circuits have held that either test

Itould apply f ard in this case we we

believe that the evidence despicB what the

ALJs have found we believe the evidence

clea~ly shows that under neither test would

this area considered to be jurisdictional

~nder the curre~t interpretatio~ of the Clean

Water Act u~der Rapanos

And I really do think chat

not wanting to lose the forest for the trees

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRA1SCAIBER3

1323 RHODE jSlAND AVE NW (202) 2344433 WASHINGTON DC 20005-370~

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here the forest -- the big picture is thatI

Rapanos is a dramatic shift in the way

busir~ess as usual has been done aL these

agencies from 1972 ~ntil 2006 It is -shy

in 2001 you had a little deviation here but

its a ilge dfference and what we find in

the brief -- and what we find in the brief of

t1e govermnent in this case is lot much of a

differerce from how the law previously lttas

interpreted and Ill -- Ill just go ahead

aYld address thae ssae and that is that the

the strongest argument it appears that

he government nakes in its brief dealing

with the significant nexus test is that

wetlands are ~rrponart ~1etlards provide

valuable functions and even Rapanos case

notes that the Clean V~ater Ac has been very

important and serves an important public

interests and Section 404 and the wetla~ds

laws i-l particuar provide ar~ irportant public

interest

JUDGE SHE1 Vie11 i 81 c the

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governments argument that these wetlands I in

particua are important I and can you address

how these wetlands do or do not meet the

Kennedy significant nexus test

fiS WILCHER That woud be t1e

goverlli~ents argument but in this case they

have failed cO co inCroduce by a

preponderance of the evidence ~hat that is

the case

JUJGE WOLGAST Coud you describe

for us what you ~elieve the goverr~ent would

have to show at a minimum to meet Justine

Kernedys significant nexus test in this

context

MS ~iILCHER At a mini~um they

wotd have to show some measure of the effec

that would be had by this wetlands property

upor~ a navigable vater of the Uni ed States

and they have not done so ln ary regard

JUDGE SHEEHIN Wasnt there

abunda1t testimony says the gDve=runent by

expert i1itness Martin and others that there

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was such a C oILleci en YOJ f re speakirg very

theoretically Id like if you could to get

specific about what you think the failu~es are

i~ the governments case on the Kennedy test

MS ~VIrJCHER Yes but if you -shy

+_--ne if you look at the gover1TIleuroEt s

argument one of their lengthy arguments is

about the impact 0 denitrification that

VJetlands provide an important deni trification

iss~eJ pointing out that the Chesapeake Bay

tas too rruch nityogen and tbat its important

to keep that out They talk about the fact

that n~toger coues from atrrosphe-ic

deposition They talk about the fact that

microbes in the soil vi22 break hat rtroger

down and then they talk about that once the

nitrogen is broken dmvr it ll be taken up by

the breeze and i If~ay even be given off again

into -- into the air

JDGE STEIN ltJasn f t there

plentiful testimony by government witnesses

and the companys witnesses as to what was

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1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON DC 20005middot3701 wwwnoalrgrossCCtn

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occurr~ng specifically at this site I mean

I think the challenge for the compa~y i~ this

appeal 8 that there were credibili ty findings

Chat tiere made by the ALJ as to some of the

testimony by respondents by the companys

wi tnesses and given the Board f 5 standard forJ

crecibility determinations where the 30ard

you knovl historically ove many mar~y years

gives great weight to an ALJ~s finding how is

it ha t we can ove look he ALJ S credibi lity

determinations in the face of countervai~ing

evidence ~hat the ALJ found ~o be credible

(S WILCHER Judge Stel if I

can finish Judge Sheehans question I III ge

right back 0 you on that You were wanting

some specifics and an example of what the

government tried to prove in its case By

go~ng through this whole denitrification

process they nake ~o distinction betwee~ the

value that ris particalar wetlald is making

or any paricular wetland is making I to the

denitrification 0 the Chesapeake Bay

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1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202) 2344433 WASHINGTON DC 20005middot3701 WWN11w1rgtOSsoom

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JUDGE SHEEHAN But the Kennedy

tea says that if wetlands aloLe or in

combination with other wetlands have that

kind of effect

115 WILCHER Wetlands alone or in

corrbinato1 with otrer wetlands or in

combination lith the uplands the arguments

~ha t tbey ace laking wOClld apply equally to

uplands and as the court noted in the Rapanos

decision applying some of these tests as the

government histori cally has applied them to

say that they are jurisdictional sirrply

because hey have value and may be somewhat

miles aay hut may have some connection or

some val~e ~i~es away being speculative in

nature does rot cause it to be

jurisdictional and it sa~d i~ so the en~ire

United States would be considered regulated

llilder tbe Clear~ ater Act

JUDGE SHEEHAN Theres ~~ theres

one and cot to get in the vay of Judge

Steins question but Qne of the exhibitsr

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Remand Exhibit 937 shows a very honeycombed

tissue through the Srith Farm weta1ds going

ou~ to the two rivers and then to the bay I~

looks sure _ surely to me it looks from this

exhibit and otes as if tl1e wetlands are very

proximate to and affect directly the waters

below Car you address that

KS WILCE2R I wil Those naps

do not show any actual measurable connection

nor do they show a contir1oJS surface

conE6ction r~avigable vrates

JUDGE SHEEHAN Why does it have to

be a surface connection tilly car_ t it be stbshy

surface if theres a hydrological link

MS WILCHER But theres ~o

showir~g of a silD-surface hydroogica liak

either Theres a total lack of evidence of

probative dence i~ th~s case to actualy

tie that paricu=-ar vletland Co a rcavigable

water which by the way you would have to gor

fcom tha wetland to a drair~age ditcr~ anc

went out there and traipsed down the site

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before I came here to talk to you about this

but youd have to go fr~~ that -- b~t this ~s

all en the record -- YOlld have to go fron

that area that might be-- that part of it that

might be considered a we~land~ through

drainage di tches t1at are only inerrrit ert

in nature and t1e evidef~ce is clear that

theYre only intermittent in nature including

the USGS blue line dotted lines and then they

would have to go from tlere to Bailey Creek

non- navigable to Drurr Point Creek

non-navigable] then to tributaries of the

westeGl branch of the Elizabeth River I which

is t~e f rst tne you I d hi a ~avigable wate

If go in the opposite

direction they would have to go from drainage

ditches to Quake~ Neck Creek to ~eans Bra~ch

which are tributaries 0 tne ravigable water

the Nansemond River 14d so there there is

no proof that there is a connection

Things could lave been done Tne-e

cOmiddotJld have been dye raclgs there cOlld have

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been a~l kinds of evidence hey could have

taken samples they could have done

quantitative analysis There is no chemical

evidence there is no physical evidence there

is no biological evidence that connecs this

to a navigable water f and therein lies the

problem

JJDGE TO~GAST Justa if I

could follow up on that before we get back to

cred~bility iss~es

MS HLCHER Okay

JUDGE WOLGAST Are you saying that

the fact they floTlI throJgh ditches is a

jurisdictional problem

MS 1tILCHER Not particularly

JUXE vIOLGASI And the1 get ~ ing

back to the testimony that Judge Sheehan was

referring to where JIdge Morar was referring

to the testimony of Mr Rhodes and Mr Martin

that the property provides flood storage flow

moderaion carbOIl sequestration vlater

purification denitrification what I want to

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undsystard aboJt your argument 1s are these

aspects insufficient or would they be

sufficient if in your mind there was more

evidence of the connection of these attributes

to the Nansemond or Elizabeth Rivers

MS iILCHER EPA -- the govenment

cant simply say that wetlands are valuable

because they are-- help prevent flooding and

not show that they would help prevent flooding

in this particular case and that it would

significantly help prevent flooding in t~is

partcular case lrJha ttey have done toe

Drie is to siIply lay down he well-knoJl

attributes a~d valuable functions and values

of wetlands and said therefore this is

having a significant effect on navigable

~ivers Theye is not a co~~ection they have

lot snoltm by a1y credible evidence cause and

effect of any sigrifcant iIEpact tpon thef

navigable rivers

JUDGE SHEEHAN But you make

again a very theoretical argument about the

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fact Chat the goverruuent just argues wetlands

fgelerally but werer t government wi tnesses

crawling allover this property mul iple

times testify~ng at great lengtl lots of

exhibits aerials historc maps and

everythi~g else to show in this case fo~ this

property there was trat link Its hard to

believe with all that 11Bssive Estimony and

getting to ~he credibility issue that he

governrrent doesn~t have a pretty solid case

rat hat nexus sat) sfyilg the Kennedy test

exists

MS WILCHER It is hard to

believe I totally agree It is hard to

believe Tle governmert has had unfettered

aCCess to this property for over a decade and

have failed 0 develop flmr drainage elements

they cant show how illuch flows off the site

they cant show vhat type of sediment runoff

might have occurred at ~he site ~hey ca~tt

show what type of water retention is teld Jy

the site t~ey have been unable to show any

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ecoogical cC1nection 1tith regard to wildlife

there was a Woodcock seen on the site There

is absolutely -- and its amazing to me hat

tr~ere is a void

JUDGE STEIN But isnt the test a

nexus a significant nexus not this

sJbstantial inpacts est that I hear wove]

through some of your statements and T dont

-- when I go back and I look at the Kennedy

opinion you knot] and some of he hings t1at

are cited I dont necessarily see that that

test requires the level of proof that youre

stggesing is reqJired ny hat test So

perhaps you could explain to me based on the

Kennedy opinion how you get from there to the

level of proof Lhat you re a5~ing for f just to

establish jurisdiction

MS WILCHER Certainly

JUDGE STEIN I mean I we re not

here to determire you know penalty or

anything else were here just to figure out

if youre even i~ tbe door

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MS IILCHER Yes understand

Ie 1 1 what Justice Kennedy said was to talk

abmlt he fJay the Corps nac typically

regulated wetlalds and then to say absent

more speciic regulations however the Corps

must establish a significant nexus on a case

by case bBSS wler it seeks to regulate

wetlands based on adjacency to non-navigable

tributaries and then it goes on to say given

the potential over breath of the Corps yen s

regulations this showing is necessary to

avoid unreasoDable applications of the

statute

The justice wrote I no~ just a

~exus if the COurt had only said there has to

be a nexus then o~e would have a different

burden of proof in this case the court said

a significant nexus and we have to assnne

that a significant nexus is meaningful that

those words mean SOIEethi1g So theres a -- at

least a two-step process One to show that

theres a nexus and the other is to show that

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its significant and that is what the record

is devoid 0 in this particular case

JUDGE SlEIN But its not a

significa1t impact its a significant nexus

MS iILCHER Thats right a

significant nexus And the sigrificart rexus

must -- and if YOu read through the rest of

the case it talks abolt hm -- that in order

to regulate land as water there must be some

type of impact on the water

JUDGE SHEEHAN Justice Kennedy

also uses a phrase that think is pertinent

here r he says that the how -- how the proof is

determined has to be done in a practical way

ard i almost sounds as if what you I re

requiing is that the governrrent set up flow

meers or pour a vial of discharge into a

ditch and see if it eventually ends up in the

Chesapeake or do something on a very

impractical scale to prove ~he connectio~

MS WILCHER You know this is a

really important issue The governrrent has to

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do sOIething oJer than to make allegations r

especially in a case where youpoundre dealing with

constitutional issues such as privae property

rights and how one car jse his own property

or hers and in this case I there are lots of

things tha~ EPA historically has done for

ypcal NPDES cases But when you before he

Board on a NPDES case theres at least some

measure If they had had pictures that there

las a plurne comir_g off of this wetlar~d if

theyd done any flow calculations if theyd

had any physical chemical biological

evidence of a nexJS and a signiican- nexus to

the navigable waters which again( are not the

ditches they are the ditches that flow to the

creek that flow 0 the creek that flow 0 the

navigable waters j then it would be a different

case but that is not what has happened in

this case

JUDGE IJOLGAST Well as you say

the goverIl1lent obviously has the burden of

proof i~ a~ eLfo~cerne~t case l but is this the

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same type of evidence that you thirk a

_a~Qowne~ should Lndertake I mean obviouslY

they have the burden to obtain a permit where

there is potential jurisdiction

I~S ~JILCaER Btt if the person

doesnt obtain a permit ~~ and the government

thinks that theyre i~ error again the

government always has the burden of proof

JUDGE vJOLGAST Right but J 1m

talking about getting a -- yOJ know starding

in the landowners shoes before weve ever

gotten to an enforceme1t case it -- it I

mean I ~h~nk theres some iSS48 with getting

back to the Supreme Court case that one of

he things that were concerned about - at

least lJustice Scalia pointed to was how much

evidence time money it takes to vJOrk

thro~gh ~h~s process and it sou~ds like the

yeLl know r the advocacy here is that there

should be more not less

)15 ~JLC1ER There stou1d be

something dore by the government in thi s

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regayd to actually prove a nexus and a

sgnificant nexus ard in this ease I canr

assuye you Judge Wolgast that the l~downer

has go~e above and beyond the oall of duty

going to the Corps time after ti~e having the

Corps ou to tr~e site and having spent talk

about the time and money and investmert having

his case as understand it having spent

over $800 000 in litiga~ion costs to try to

pr-otect what was legal at tl~e time that it was

aone and so -- so there is a burden

The governme1t has the burden aid

in this case in this par~icular case they

failed to meel it I don I t know why I haven [t

been involved that lor~g ~ would speculate

tl1at by the time he Rapanos case cane along

it V~as jlSt too hard to go back and find the

type of probative evidence that would carry

the cay_

I do not necessaily thirk that

its an impossible tas~ There have been ot~er

cases that ve reviewed aihere the goverrUent

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has irtroduced evidence of the poundows tr~e

amount of drainage that has occurred how much

water might be taken up by a wetland area$ but

none of that was done in thi s particular case

and again we can only speculated why that

was the case

JDDGE STIN How does tr_s S~xth

Circuit decision in the Cundl f f matter bear on

your view that the -- you need some sort of

laboratocy araysis to prove h~s7

MS ~VILCHER in that

particular easel you dont have as I ~ecall

the -- the disarce roIT a navigable waer

tha t we have here [ and I think the farther you

are away from a navigable water the harder it

is 0 prove tha~ theres any impact on that

navigable water and in this -- again in this

case they are far away from a navigable

water and I think toe reaSC1 tha~ we don

see the p=oof is because its not there itS

not developable and that is why it is not

Cere Did yOl wart De to ~~

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JUDGE STEIN I do wact you to get

the credibility question

MS bull WILCHER I dian t t want to

forget your - shy

JUDGE STEIN No while we we~e on

this topic why cor t t yOJ addres s the

credibility question

MS vILCHER I think its an

important question IC t S a real important

question and that is simply that s even though

the regtllatior~s do provide that typicaily when

the ALJ hears the witnesses and makes

determinations 0 ~~eir credib~~ity that

typically this Board will defer to that

However in this case a carefctl review of the

record shows that the ALJs just got it wrong

and it is within this Boards prerogative to

look at the -- look at t1e factors tha

that the ALJs used in making their

deterninatior and make a judgreJt aboJt

wl1ether those factors are sufficient

A couple of examples There was a

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mar who had Iived OT the farm for h~rty years

who testified that he I d walked over the farm

for thir~y years and testified that in fact

Ithe streams J or the drainage di tches were

intermittent in nature and did not carry water

I - 1 h d - a11 th e trre bull e __ t e JU ge ~n tHe QeClS10n

said well I think hes a nice man I think

hes beholden to the Smi ths f and he was just

Ollt or a wa so totally just discounted his

testimony saying he WBS just out on a walkJ

as if that meant t~at somebodywQuldnt no~ice

DGE ~vOGAST ~ Are yot saying

though that it would have to carry water all

tre time

MS vHLCHER No no But but

it f s clearly -- is Eot a navigable water lor

it is adjacent nor is the wetland adjacent to

a navigable water in this case It flows

anything t~at =lows opound= of t~at a~ea that has

been considered to be wetland by the

goverr-Uent flows -rxough drainage ditches

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that are only intermittent in nature and

~herefore are ~ot co~sidered to be navigable

watsYs clea~ly urder the Rapanos decison

JUDGE SHEEHAN But if the man

walking the land said that they were

intermittent and youre saying intermittent

doesnt matter

I~S IgtlILCHER Were saying that -shy

Judge Cha~eski as I recall said tha~ there

was a c01tinuOU5 flow of 5088 kind isnt that

-- d~~lt J~dge Char~eski say that

WOLGAST lrJell Justice

Scalia said that even after that -shy

HS WILCHER Right right

JUDGE WOLGASl That that

seasonal flow could establish jurisdiction

~nder the pluralitoes test

148 t-JILCEER BJt there s not beenj

seascnal flow established -=-n this case Yot

have somebody going out there en particular

days after these ditches have been dug which

we all know alter the flow in drainage after

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the eLi tches are dug ftJaer goes to the lowest

level and so theres going to be more water

draining OU= of there t~a~ ~here would have

been in 1998 and 1999 and that -- that is

clear ~tat ~tere is no ev~de~ce ac the time

this was done they were -- they were anything

but inerYlitten and here l s no j1risdictiola1

connection that they have proven to date

JUDGE ~JOLGAST And what do you

think they would have had to have shown to

show seasonal flow

MS ~IILCHER Well they could

have done something more than go out there

nine times over tbe course of a year rrhey

could have had aerial photographs taken Ihey

cod have -- weil first yOl have the uSGS -shy

you have the USGS maps as showing its

inteYrnittent and theres lierally no

testimony en the record right now to show that

theyre anything but interrrdtent Ot-her than

to say that if somebody goes out there ~ine

Cimes and looks at the flow and sees water

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then -- agair~1 keeping ir mind this was years

atel 1_8 dainage d=- tches tver-e dtg ha t were

channeling more water into the old one through

seven drainage areas there B nothing tof

establish what was the~e at ~he time in 1998

a~d 1999

JUDGE VlOLG~rST And I think

isnt this what courts are struggling with in

the sense that its -- its one thing to say

~ts ~~ter~itte~tf b~t is that good enough I

mean I dont you have to figure out just how

much flow in you know what period of time

or the idea that -- I dont -- if someoae

says t~at its intermitte~t Irr not sure that

means its ir~ or out without further evidence

MS WILCHER Right Well that

shows really the that shows arguably a

cQnYlecion Bu how rrlcr =ow is going through

there whether sediment loading is going

through there whether theres an ecological

connection through there all these whethers

lead to whether t~e~e is a sig~ificant nex~s

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to a navigable water and if you look at some

of the other cases ~here has been that kiLd of

information introduced and in this case there

is none

JUDGE vJOLG1ST hhat case are you

thinking of

MS vJILCiER I thirki1g maybe

t was the Precon case ir - - in the Eastern

District of Virginia Its on appeal in the

Fourth Circuit I may r~ve been ~hat BJt

I 11 be happy to provide some cases -- a case

or cases later on that show the type of

evidence that tas been introdJced because I

remember reading about them and cant think of

the name right now

TlDGE SHEEIiAN I Vant to go back

for a moment to Judge Stein J s question about

credibility

gtIS CLCHER YOS

JUDGE SHEEHAN So ALJ Moran sat

through days and days of testimony on the

bench a lot of pecple ~n ~~at witness chair

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Hes there hes on he scere hes

~nterpreting the way the witnesses speak and

their basic credibility which you can only do

face to face in that way Wha~ is it about

what happened there that causes you to think

theres sOne way or some reason for as not to

credit the typ~cal deferehce we would extend

There must be some exception here that we ~eed

0 know about for that to happen

MS WLCHER tAJel1 r ard there are

a few facts that I think would be relevant to

your consideration in that case In the first

instance some of these wi~nesses that the ALJ

deter~ined were not credible --Jere stipJlated

as being expert vtitnesses and hat shows at

least sorre level of credibility in the mind of

the government w th regaro to whetJ~er they

were experts in the field

Second some of the criticisms

in one case a criticism that an ALJ made of an

expert wi tness was that he had not beer~ 0 the

site often enocgh yet vith one of the

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gover~ors -~ goverG~entls expert witnesses

that person had been to the site less times

t1an t1e Srith Farms expert witress A1C SO

there is a confounding sense that in this

particular case for whatever reason if the

experts agreed ~ th r~e goverr_rne1t f they were

credible and that if they di~~t they were

not

It just seems highly unlikely that

every single witness iltroduced by Smith

Far~s and Ive had the pleasure of working

wi th Mr Boyd and it lS just I think

statistically urEkely that one could End

that many unmiddotmiddotmiddotcredible witnesses and in thisf

case I do not believe that they were not

credib2e I believe they were as credible ald

as I mentioned in some cases were stipulated

in beirg expert w~t~esses ~~

JUDGE SHEEHAN So you didnt

believe they were

HS WICHER I did not bel ieve

they were not credible so I believed that

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they were credible And -- and it is sOIEewhat

confoundirg other than to say that the

closest thing that I could figure out was that

if hey supported t~e governments viev tey

were credible and if they did not support the

governments Vlew I they were not

CJDGE trrOGAST But dien f t Judge

Moran find that -- and to generalize ---- that

the witnesses failed to establish that to the

exent t1ere were weta1ds they -lere isolated

by on-hydric soil lasnt that a central part

of his credibility determination

MS ~vILCHER Well trat S O1e of

the findings that Judge Moran made but in

this paricular case keep in mind its not

Smi Parms tha-c has 0 show that there is a

break or a barrier -- its the government who

has to show that the~e is a con~ection

JUDGE liOLGAST Of

understand Right

HS IIILCHER So theres cerainly

pockets of non-hyd~ic soil in tte area and

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for SOle reaSCl EPA _ ar~d again this is just

ki~d of amazing to me

spent this long on that EPA did not go out

there and do a typical delneaion of the

site and this is something that is cypically

done Its amazing that EPA did not issue a

cease and desist order as soon as t~ey ~~ew

abouc it There are many things that to me

are amazing about this case that quite

frarky I are he easor that I came nere to

argue it Because lIm a strong believer in

protecting the Clean Water Act and in

protec~ing lteta-ds and you mayor may lOot

know from my history I I bear a lot of scars

from having trIown myself in the body of

wetlands protection bac~ in the days ana I

still believe its an important thing to do

But I also believe its important to follow

~~e rule of law and ~n chis case Mr Boyd

made every effort to follow the rule of law

and I bel ieve he did and when it did not work

out tte way that EPA wanted the law to be

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this enforcement action came forward at a

time -- and had they intervened early on i~

t~is case they cou~d have stopped They knew

months before the work was cOITpleted -- hey

knew months before the work was completed that

there was ditching and draining going on

t~ere and trey did no move in quickly to try

to resolve that case ar~d they could have -shy

they could have stopped most of the so called

harm that they are now alleging but chose not

to do so ~~ey dd ~ot do a deineaLion they

did not inroduce proof that this particular

part of property has a significant nexus to

jurisdictional waters of the United States to

a navigable water of the United States I and

thats the reason I~ he~e

JJDGE VJOLGASI I see your time is

expired if theres no other questions

MS WILCHER Thank you

MS S~J~ET~ Good morning You=

Honors My name is Stefania Shaliat and I

represent Region III in this matter

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specifically the complainants who are the

division directors for the Environmental

Assessment a1d Irr~ovation Divisio1 and he

vater Protection Division I at EPA Regio11 III

With me at counsel table Id like to

i~troduce DO1la Carner-Tal f who is regulatory

co-msel for the Nc-folk District Army Corps of

Engineers and Karen ~lendelowskl gt who is with

the office of general cour~sel and also we

have a disirglshed g1e8 1$ d lke to

introd~ce -- si~~ing behind me is Dr Dennis

Whigham with the Smithsonian Environmental

Resea=cr Cente- Your Honors responders have

do~e ~~ if I ca~ get in a couple points -- a

good job of obfuscating what are really very I

very simple facts here The simple facts are

hat these are tllelands perfouuiq docurrenced

functions that are delivered to tributaries

These wetlands are adj acent physically

trose trib-ltaries f ard those

tr lbtacies flow to traditiorally navigable

waters to the West 2600 feet away to the

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East 4200 feet away In other words the are

wetlands adjacent to tributaries that low

waki1g clstance to tr-adi ional1y navigable

waters These Vetlfu1ds were jurisdictional

under SWANCC as respondent conceded in Clean

~later Act Appeal mmber 05-05 when respondent

reseved argll1snt on jtrisdicto1 but chose

not to raise it un~il there was a change in

case law They continue to be jurisdictional

under any standard enunciated by he Supreme

Court in Rap~~os The qJan~u~ of proof offeree

by the complaina1ts i1 this matter not only

exceeds preponderance of the evidence it

exceeds any quantum of proof required by

Rapanos In fact t far exceeds it Another

thirg that is obscured in the ar9J11ent here by

the respondents is that up until 2007

respondents had a different set of expert

witnesses It las tlose expert witresses that

coroplainalts stipulated 1heir expertise was

in wetlands identification and the connection

of wetlands to waters of the uniced States

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Ihose witnesses largely agee with

complainac1t I s version of the facts on the

ground ae-d i wasnt until 2007 when

respondents hired a new set of expert

witnesses that any real dispute arose about

what exactly was going on in the site There

was dispute about ithat hat nean f but not

exacly what the physical characteristics of

t21e si te ere

J1DGE WOLGAST Counsel coud you

address Ms wilchers points that while there

may be flow moderation carbon sequestration

there may be some evidence that the government

hasnt shmlTI a nexus between those

characterist~cs and the ~avigable waters

vIS SHAME Sure First of alI

the evi6erce of Je fuYlctions beirg performed

on this S1 te is not speculative There are

photo after photo and testimony after

testimony the governments evidence is based

or established scientific literature that

identifies something called field indicators

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-- physical characteristcs on the ground -shy

that when identified correlate to a specific

functi~n being formed by the wetland In this

case there are three Tr~e first was fow

noderaiou and one of the physical

characteristics thez-e would be such things as

ponding you see a lot of later being

captured in low levels depressional levels

withir the wetland Tle record conta1s dozens

of photos of that The secord is

denitrification and that is the microbes

llptaking nitrogen in the soil That indicator

is something called modelirg i1 he soil It sI

a red spotch Essentially it IEeans that iron

is there That evidence comes not only from

the complainants but if one were to reviel

the soi 18 expert froIT respordent Dr Parkers

O~ I-fr arlter f s firs expe~t repo-t ir

20C3 he describes modeling in his sails The

third is primary production That is the1

contribution of a food source Taking

transforming organics that a2e in the _- in

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nature into a food source in water that then

tralsports that food source dowYlsream to

higher trophic organisms The best evidence of

that actually comes from one of respondents

experts Dr Cahoot 1110 photographed it

leaving the site I cant find the photo at

the marneYlt f blt I 11 describe what he says

Foaing a he confluence of the ditch

leaving the property with ditches along the

property boundary near the railroad This foam

vias also sampled and examined microscopically

--- it contained primary plant debris some

peller ald rllnero-lS sma oil droplets These

oil droplets in my opinion were probably

plant oils derived froI decomposition of the

organic matter in this area That description

correlates perfectly with the description in

the testimony in tZ1e remand hearng about what

primary production s the transport of

particulate and dissolved organics downstream

as a food sOJce So the -Jse 0 the -- t~1e

functions this case are not speculative

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theyre clearly being per-formed theyre

clearly being cocC1ented as beir~g perforrred on

this wetland Theres also evidence of the

hydrologic connection between this wetland

the ibuaries and the downst-eam

trad~tionally r~avigable waers Again that

comes both frOIE complainant ~ s experts as well

as some of respondents experts one of

respondent I s experts described tr_at hydrologic

co~nectio3 as such He descrbed the wetland

as a table tcp on which somebody pours water

the water comes off of that table top into

the ditches and then tansports down to the

taditional1y navigable waers The sane

expert lgtIr Wolf also agreed that the

wetlands on the site were in fact

hydrologically conYlected to the di tches wr~ich

forrr tributaries and lJlere n fact adjacs1t to

them So we also have fUTIction ard we have

transport Now with respect to Ms Wilchers

corrment -shy

JUJGE WOLGAS~ is YoDr

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posi tion on the type of evidence that you

need to show nexus of

characteristics you see on site to the

navigable waters

gt1S SHAtvET My positio1 is tha we

met it exactly and I would refer you to

Justice Kennedys opinion Justice Kenledy

ide~tified the type of functions that he would

consider to form a significant nexus

traditional navigable waters and those are

p~ecisely the functions that were identified

on this site Specifically Justice Ker-nedy

refers to slowirg COt-C of surface runoff r

filtration and purification -- that would be

in on 547 US 773 to 75 He sta~es with respect

to weta1ds f the rationale for the Cleal ~fater

Act regulation is as the Corps as recognized

that vetlands can perforrl cri tica2 functioES

re2-ated to the integrity of other waters

functions such as pollutant trapping -- in

other words l denirifcatior~ -- flood control

flow moderation and ruriOff storage

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Ther-efore the types of functions that we

docrraented as beng performed or this site are

precisely the ypes of unctiors tha Jusice

Ken1edy ide1tified J in his opinion as the

type of functions that form a significant

nexus

JUDGE SHEEHAN In in your

brief on page 46 you say that the Kennedy

Test requiEs weta1ds cont-ibutions to the

physical c1emical or biologic in-egrity of

doOrIlstream waters -- is it nor or Hand Your

brief says or

MS SHAMET The brief says II or -shy

JUDGE SHEEHAN Because if it can

De just one of those -shy

SHA4ET I believe Justice

Kennedy did use and however it is c2ear

that he does not require a function to

contribute to all ~hree factors and chats

clear from the function he identifies

JUDGE SHEEHAN Then why did he say

and

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MS SHAMET I think he said and II

but he had a comraa and a1d he was -eferring

to a list of examples rather than a standard

i1ith respect to Ms Wilchers cormnent that we

dont have any photographs of pltLnes as I

indicatedf one were to trt 0 R Ex 28 f

which llnfortunatey I can f find right now I

ltlhich is Respondent 1 s Exhibit 28 from the

first hearing in 2003 Dr Cahoon provides a

picture of that plume himself I would also

point out that with respect to

denitriication one wouldnt expect to see a

pInrr -- thats the exact point its to hold

Che nitrogen on the wetland -lot send it

downstream

JUDGE STEIN How is the Rapanos

significant nexus test d_fferent if at all

=rom the nexus i~ Rivervew Rverside

Bayview

MS SHAMEl Riverside Bayvie

assumed a nexus based upon adjacencYi in this

case lJustice Kennedy has asked that we

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actually go forward and establish that the

nexus exists rather than simply assuming itI

based On adjacency

JUDGE SHEEHamp~ on page 41 of your

brief you quote some of the tesciroo1Y of the

first ALJ hearing I which sounds a lit~le more

entative to me tha1 youre souidir_g today

about the substa1tial nexus test being met

The brief~ at page 41 reads that these

wetlands are more likely to perform

denitrification more likely to allow for

suspended settlements -- sediments to settle

out~ more likely to support a different suite

of wildlife species that to me is

lar-guage ~rats ~ot qui~e as powerful as

saying there is a substantial nexus met here

that just sounds -- can yo~ address what seems

to be more diffident language in your brief

than what youre articulating today

MS SHAMET Well as Your Honor

pointed out T the language that you pointed to

in the brief is from the 2003 hearing before

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tr~e Rapanos case As the Board is avlare J he

EPP~ agreed and argued that the evidence to

satisfy Rapanos had not been fl11y developed

as of 2003 and this precisely why we

requested a remand

JUDGE SHEEHAN But youre cit i ng

it here filed long after Rapanos as if its

still your position

MS SHAME~ I cited a lot of other

evidence as lJell Your Honor incLuding the

testimory of Mr Rhodes he testi~cny of Dr

~fhigham and the testimony the f1Tther

estimony of Hr Mart So while that is a

piece of evidence it is certainly not the

only evidence cited in our brief

JUDGE WOLGAS~ ~o go back to the

point you were making earlier about how the -shy

in essence the three-part test is the same

type of evidence yo~ would look to to

establish sign~ficant nexus ard Justice

Kernedy did seer to speak to hat saying much

the sarre evidence I referring to tre Corps ssect

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delineation manual type evidence should

P8nnit the establishment of a significant

nexus witr navigable wates

particularly if supplemented by further

ev~dence abou~ the significance of the

tributaries to which the wetlands are

cO11ected How does the gove-nment interpret

the latter part of that quote

MS SILllltlECmiddot I think that the

government needs to show and has shown in

this case that there is an ability of those

trihttayies Co conect the wetlands to a

traditionally navigable water in such a way

that the poundtnctions are delivered In this case

we have certainly shown the hydrologic

cO1nect=-o1 some of respondents expe-ts have

agreed with us that that connection exists and

tha there is sufic8Ylt ~hat there is

water exchange there and weve also shown

that heres proxirrity here again these are

walking distance to traditionally navigable

waters this is not the Rapanos case where it

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traveled 32 miles So we think we have met

that burden here by sho~Jing the hydrologic

connection and showing that these tributaries

are capable of delivering the function With

respect to cr-edibi=-ity and he points that

Your HOlors asked of AS Wilcher I would just

point out tha~ lTudge lvlorans credibility

determination was based on demeanor and also

on the facts of this case An important fact

to note for insta11ce is in the firstF

r~earing in 2003 respondent I s soils exper

who laid a g=id fOJnc 53 ou 55 sarnples

hydric The only two that were non-hydric had

JUDGE STEIN I couldnt hear you

MS SHApoundT Had 53 Oelt of 55 soil

sa~ples he identified as hydric in the site

soEs or ei ther side In the secord heaocilg

Dr Pierce testified that there was

essentially non-hydric soils everywhere And

on cross-examination he was asked didn t youI

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find any hydric soils and he said oc yeah

I found them I just didnt click on my GS

locator and ider~tify where they were and I

just didn It report them He only reported the

non-hydric soEs That is the kind of thing

that happened that caused Jtdge l-loran 0 find

a lack of c-edibility vvlth respect to 9r

Straw Dr Straws expert report disc1ssed

undulations in the landscape that he

interpreted to mean ere were no wetlands

tlere On the sand he conceded trat there

were no u1dulaions on tr~e landscape -- he had

mis~nterpreted the aeria= photo More

importantly he conceded ~hat he knew about

ha t erroy before the hearing and leverf

corrected it until cross-exa~ination Judge

Moran had ample basis for finding no

credibility on those witnesses

JUDGE SEIN Is it your view tha~

the Board has no authority to overrale an

ALJs credibility determination

MS SHAl-1ET No YOJr Honor the

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Board reviews he case de novo lffuile the

Board certainly defer to the ALJ r s credibili ty

determination what I run saying that in this

case t~ere is no basis for overturn~~g it

JUDGE STEIl If we were to

overturn it -- a credibility determination

what kinds of factors r it your view s1ould 18

be taking into aCCo4nt

MS S~~~ET I would think you

oelld be looking to see whether or not the ALJ

has a rational basis oh gosh I hate to use

legal standards like that -- but some sort of

bass or hich he based his credibiliy

deerrtination that he explained why there was

a lack of credibility and I think in this

case he did so amply

JUDGE SHEEHAJ If Ms v~i 1 cher S

correct characterizing the way testimony

cedibclity went i soanced almost like a

hundred percent credit to government

witnesses and practically zero to

respondens witnesses f tratg acctrate

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jus stipulat-=-ng 0 trat assumption - - if

t~atfs accu~ate would that be a basis fer not

allcwing deerence to Jdge Morans

credibility determinations if its so

lopsided

ocs SH_~ET In this case I would

say no just simply because in this case we

have a classic battle of the experts I but

oddly enough the ba~~ling experts are al on

respondents side And )hat we have are

experts whD ~estif~ed in 2007 who flat

disagreed wit the testimony of respordent S

experts in 2003 without any atterrpt by the

2007 experts or respondents to reconcie

that testiITony Given that circumstance it sf

not surp-isirg that the experts in 2007 s

testimony were given very litte weight One

of the things that Hs ltJilcher referred 0 was

unfettered access to the site If anyone had

u~fettered access to the site~ it was

respondent and yet there are no photos in the

record showing the streaL~S leaving the site

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dry except during a drought

JUDGE VOLGAST But her point was

tha t the goverrunert ~as the bmiddoturden here

MS SHlHEI And the burden -- he

government has met the burden In fact in

this case the preponderance 0 the evidence

literally the only evidence other than

testirrony by the site owner testimony by

someone who walks around a three-hu1dred-acre

site hunting and looki1g for damage in che

fieds which lS what he estified he was

doing there and photographs taken during a

d--ought he oV9rtlhe=Iilg evidence is that the

waters do flow on a regular basis First of

all these waers have been napped the

waters leaving the site -- as flovving water by

USGS for hal f a century

JUDGE vIOLGAST Yo mentioned that

the waters flow on a regular basis Is that a

conir~uols bas~s

MS SHAMET We would say it would

be part of every year Your Honor

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JUDGE SHEEHAJ Tlen W1Y 18 that

necessarily continual The Scalia Test now

that veve 901e to continual flow is jilst

that -- there has to be continual flow He

says even the least significant of the lake

river ocealS or streams the four water

bodies the least significant steams has to

have COlticua you

repeatedly say - make other instances that

are to me a lot less cor~fdent t1~an what

Scalia seems to deilland You say page 31 the

drains flow at least part of every yeari page

35 at least SOme portion of every year at

least at least at least it comes up

repeated-ly in YOlr brief vlhich couid be just

one rain event So theres one rain at least

it flows one or two days after the rain aod

thats certainly a far cry I would argue

from continual So can you address the seeming

gap between your statemen~s and what Scalia

seems to demand as far as continual flow

~S SHk1ET Ie would state that

Your

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Justice Sca~ia described re1ativey permanent

wateYs He made pretty clear wrat teose were

He did~t require any specific n~~er of days

of flow -- what he did say was common sense

and common usage distinguished between a wash

and a seasoral river and tha f s in foot1ote

five respondent likes to use the term

intermitten~ a lot but the one thing it is

clear from footnote 5 is that Justice Scalia

does not give the term intermittent any

ocegulatoY import trJhy Because he

specifically decli~ed ~o define it

JUDGE SHEEHAN Why doesnt he give

it regulatory import when at least seven

tirres by ely count in his opinion he says

iEtermi tent waters do not cca11 fy as

jurisdictional -- he even calls it an oxymQron

ac one point

~S SHAMET Even though he does

not -- he declines ~o defihe it He says that

thee are defiritions 0 nterrnttent bu he

sees 10 reason to identify what tlose are

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here I and then he specifically says I We have

no occasion in this litigation to decide

exacty whe1 he cryirg up of a streambed is

continuous and frequent enough to disqualify

tle channel as a water 0 the Cnited States

~jUDGE SHEEI-IAN I know we can t -shy

aobody knows what intermitter~t meaJs with

aOsol~te rigor thas obviously subject to

interpretation But the fact is he

contlnmiddotually rejects intermitten~ waters

whatever that Ireans as jurisdictional a1d

you say intermittent doesnt matter I dont

know how yot can say lat in the face cf al

his statements that intermittent does w~tter

HS SHAMET I think the evidence

dernorstrates pretty clearly that ther-e is

regular flow on a regular basis in these

wateTs A good exaTIple

JUDGE SHEEH1ll~ Im not talking

about the eviderce 1lT talking about the

standard

MS SHAIjET The standard lS that

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there has to be a relatvely pe-mar_ent tvater

It cant be a wash it cant be someLhing that

flows only occasionally only in response co

a very strong rainfall i~ cant be a gutter

It has to be a geographic feature ~~d in this

case we have USGS mapping these as geographic

features conainng Vlaer for over ffty

years which if thatis not relatively

permanent I In not qui te sure what would be

JUDGE SHEEHAN C-ne1 how else - shy

why else -- why is it that you cannot muster

more behind your argument that these are

lowing dyains tha1 just saying at least part

of the year continually You never say its

continual you never say its relatively

permanert ane not interrrittert you seem to

stay away from saying that and it seems

purposeful because it happens so frequently

1 S SHAHET ~J e dont

over~exaggerate our evidence we say what it

is And in this case what we r re saying is Ie

agree hsse styeams dry up for part of ~he

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year VJe f ve never argued that these were

perennial streams because theyre not They

are streams that only flow for part of the

year But part of the year is good enough

1nder Jtstice Scalia f s test These are rot

washes theyre ~ot t ckles When they flow

t1ey flow As Jlldge Mo-an pointed out I the

record is replete wi th photos of these streams

flowing and floling wi th a good arnount ofI

water them Now for exanpJe -shy

JUDGE SHEEHlll Flowing at least

part of the year right

MS SHAME~ Flowirg at least part

of the year If I could get the photo up An

example is ~his series of photos~ if we can

get it up If not Ill jus give tre exhibit

numbers Not a perfect picture This photo was

taken in December 2006 As you can see

theres visible flow in the stream A1d this

is Complainants Exhibit 328 co~plai~ants

Ex-hibit 308 - sarre sreart same location you

can tell by the cross January 07 J still

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lt- Low~ng

JUDGE SHEElI1N ~Iha t does tha t

realy prove YOJ cOl-=d go out right after a

rain as apparently happenedi apparently Dr

Whigham went out afte rain irw 07 ard Judge

Moran noted that he was out two days after a

big rain so naturally the drains were full

DJ showing us occasiQral ~-

IS SHAlyenjET If you can show four

sraight lonths of floN f think youre

probaby doing pretty good This is O1e of

respondent I S exhibits This is Dr Straws

photo ta~er_ in February 2007 This s

Respondents Exhibit 57pp

JUDGE VJOLGASI I (IT sory 1 whose

testimony was ~his

MS SHAMET Dr Straws The other

~h~ng that is documeGted -- Im just going to

go ahead and give you April April 2007 still

flow This is Complainants Exhibit 391 and

just ia case were llorried about March e

dont have March 2007 we have March 2003

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JIDGE SHEEHAN What drain is that

MS SHAMET This is Complainants

Exhibit 102L

JUDGE SHEEHAN What drain

MS SHAMET This is the portion of

drait six- seven as it leaves the si-se

crosses unde~~ea~h the railroad tracks to che

west and leaves the site We would also noce

chat in che 2003 hearing it was established

ard Judge ChaYlJeski acc6ped ordinary hig

watermark for the duration of the streams

leaving the site from the time they leave the

site cntil the time they wa~king distance

away hit traditionally navigable waters Now

whIle Justice Scalia said that existence of an

ordinary high waternark in and of itself does

not estabJish jurisdicion it does remair a

fact on the ground that shows the preseTlce of

f~c~J O-1r b~ief did cite in a footnote a

number of cases that describe what an ordinary

high water mark means and what it basically

means is that theres water there on enoJgh

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of a regular basis that theres no

vegetation and Dr Straw in poirtig at that

photo 57pp poined out that there was an

ordinary high watermark there e believe that

we 1ave s~ovm t2lougt t~1at eviderce as well is

that theres a regularity of flow through

these water bodies tJi th respect to Ms

~iilcher f s suprise that EA did not issue a

cease and desist order we in fact did we

issued an admif~istrative order n 2000 I

doat have the record citatio~ with me bu~ I

believe it was testified to in the 2003

tearilg In addi tion tlith respec 0 YIs

Wilchers conunent that EPA knew about the

operation before it was completed and didnt

intervere ~rat is also not correct In Culy

of 1999 EPA contacted respondent and

requested a site visit A- that time the work

was not done l6 site visit was scheduled in

-- they did the scheduling In July and the

visit was schedJled in September and in

August respor~dent brought equipment to the

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site and finished it up to present EPA with a

fai t accompli Couple other points There I s

bee~ a ~w~er of debates i~ t~e b~ie= about

briefs about whether or not there are in

fact wetlands on the sice and whether or not

they extend all the way to the tributaries

First of all ~othi~g in Rapanos altered the

EEe~gy and Water Developmert Appropriations

Act of 1993 Public Law 102377 106 Statutory

at Large 1315 in which Congress directed the

Corps of Eng~leers to use t~e 1987 wetlands

delineation nanual until a replacement manual

was established the courts have

recognized deference to the Corpss 1987

manual as the agencys interpretation of its

OvT regulatiors That manual was applied in

this case That manual when applied in this

case identifies wetlands throughout the site

JUDGE SHEEHAN A~e these -- are

these wetlands these draircs are tl_ey fed by

a1Y other source than rain

MS SHAMET No Your Honor These

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wetlands are what are called the top of the

watershed and this is why water flows in two

directions off of this site -- it flows both

west and east because its at the top of the

watershed

JUDGE SHEEHAN So any water on the

site its all rain-fed

MS SHAMET Yes The seasonality

of it however I can be established through

testimony regarding how the plants on this

site interact with that precipitation And

that testimony discusses the relationship

between whats called leap out and

transpiration In other words when the leaves

are on the trees the trees are uptaking water

from the ground -- from the groundwater table

and the groundwater table decreases and

thats why you see lower levels of water in

the summer During the winter when the leaves

are off the trees the trees are not

transpiring yet -- the water table rises and

thats why these are seasonally flowing

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s~reams and seasoca~ systems

JUDGE SHEEHAN Is there any

testirtony in the record abott the frequency of

the rain If rain is it is the source is

rain something on this property that occurs

f if -y times a year I a hundred t iITes a year t

two ~ines a year

MS SHAME= YOur Honor the

2003 record I believe there was an exhibit

and I apologize that I canZt name the exhibit

number for you right now that idenifies what

a one year storm is f what a three year stOrIT

is~ and l-lha a five year storm is in that

county and I apologize that I cant come up

with the exhibit number for you right now

JUDGE SHEEHAN vlell whats your

recolecion about it irhat it says eve if we

dont know the exhibit right now 111 just

trying to get a bead on how -- whether its

typically dry or typically wet there With

rain

MS SHAI-fET Your Hono f I cant

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recall I believe its under a~ inch -- around

a~ inch bu~ ca~t say foy su~e I look at

a lot of these for a let opound dipoundfeent areas

and I don~t want to get one mixed up with the

other

JUDGE ~]OGAST vTose testimony

we6 you reerrlg to gtThen you were discusslg

seasonality

MS SHAMET That was testimony of

Mr Martin It is at Remand Transcript 1912

~~d Rema~d Transcript 354

JUDGE STEI f he Board we~e to

conclude tha the evidence in this case meets

the Kennedy est is it necessary for theI

Board to consider whether the evidence meets

the plurality test

18 8HAMET Its the posiio1 of

EPA hat satisfying either test will establish

geographic jurisdiction under the Clean Water

Act As the Board noted all courts that have

so held have held tha~ if one meets re

Kennedy Tests then t~ats satised Ir

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a~swer actually to one of your questions I

1think Judge Steir there is one case It S an

unreported case out of the District of Hawaii

that has held that the Kennedy Test is lircited

to isolated waters and hat Y0l otherwise

apply to Scalia Test and that is Sierra vs

COJ1ty of Honolulu 2008 us Distcict EX=S

64262 1 and we would just note that that case

is inconsistent with the governing circuit

lali ts tle 9h Circuit and we believe its

inconsistent with Headlesburg and Moses but

you did ask lthether there was any case that

discussed he Sca=--~a test and that is the

only one at least Im aware of To answer

your question we believe t11at satisfying the

Kennedy Iest wOll-~d be sufficient and it would

not be necessary to reach the Scalia Test i

however we do beLeve thas weve satisfied

boh in this case and that ei ther test will do

it All through

JUDGE SHEEHAN Can you poi~t us iL

the record to what may not be a gap but it

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looks like a bit of a gap at least from the

briefs There I s a lot of testimony -- a lot of

discussion in your brief about the history

the history on the site water on the site

for exa~pe a 1953 p~cto s~ows di~ch O~e had

water I a 1937 photo one two and four had

water 1920 f USGS map had five -- ditch five

had water And then so we leap from sixty f

seventy years ago to the present decade

oegirning in 1999 middotJ~el a buner of inspectio1B

occurred mainly in 99 I and there was some

hopscotching and then they e~ded in 2007 So

he~e --- at least from the bries treres a

fairly big gap between the very very historic

taps and photos I and then ~he 1999-on

inspections and That they showed What about

the intervening

HS SHlIiCET - believe tha~ we also

discussed the USGS maps in 1994 which were

the most recent maps prior to activity As

YOUY HO1ort s aware from the Boards decisio1

in Bricks its inCUInbent upon us to show what

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the wates Jere lLlte before the activity f not

after the activity

JUDGE SHEE~~ Right bue the

before here is well before Thats my

~estion I dont see much except for that 94

map

MS SHAMET 1Ind we also used

aeria photography from 1994 and 1995 to

suppla--nent rphere I S been nO evidence in the

record that anything changed between 1994 and

1995 and the acivity in question which

started in I believe December of 98 or

Jaluary cf 1999 Ane I believe responcerts

agreed on the western side of the site in

their expert reper that the configuration

has been co~sistent si~ce 1949 up until the

time of the activity If there are any further

quest iors I woud jus smnnarize again by

pointing out that the facts this case are

veoy very siltple Ttese are wetlands theyre

clearly docJmented as wetlands the

preponderance of the evidence established the~

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as wetlands The preponderance of evidence -shy

tle overwhelming preponderance of the evidence

established that Chese wetlands are

performing actual documented functions The

very significant nexlJS that Justice Kennedy

described in h~s opinion The evidence in this

case shows that these wetlands are physically

adjacent to tributaries These are ditches

they are rranmade bu~ wo~d ~ust note that

iJ Ra9a~os itself the ditches were manmade

and no justices voted about that They flow

waking dista1ce to tradi tionally r~avigable

waters and 7hey are jllrisdictional Thank

you

MS v-JILCHER May it please the

cOJgt IrJClnt to t~lank couJsel for -aising the

tabletop analogy necause I forgot to This is

at a divide It is twenty feet above sea

level It 8 a watersted divde lke he

cortinental divide such hat water is flowirg

away it is not at the bottom of anything It

is nQ a marsh it is EDt a bog it is Lot a

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swarrcp i1-is is ar~ area where there is no

abili ty for the fJetland to capture and keep

pollutants out of a Y1avigable water because it

lrsef is a the very head of the watershed

And so trying 0 -- f you Jere able to be

there and see that~ you woald understand that

its not got the same type of functions and

values as some area ad) aca1t to below I

cach1g f pYEvertng po=-l-ltion cori1g frou a

10 of upstream areas While thats not

parricularly significant

JUDGE SHEEHIlll Havent yo just

helped ma~e te argumelOt that with gravity

lorking as it 60es any discharge of a

po1hltant up high wotld have made its way dOlJID

low f to a navigable water

MS WILCHER Yes so this is not

a rrounanols area fh=-s is a very slight

slope 11 fact to the naked eye it s almostt

hard to see a slope

JUDGE SHEEHAN Why does flow

matter as significant ~exus goes

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HS VrJCHER We11 the amount of

rur~offf qJie fr-ankly r~at would occur can

matte w~th regacd to that I do want 0

address a few absolutely incorrect things that

were stated and a couple misconceptions Let

me start with the mischaracterization of the

axpert witnesses that were hired in 2007

There seems to be some attempt to imply that

hiri1g differe1t expert witnesses to deal with

wtether this is ju-iscicto1al under Rapanos

is the same as having expert witnesses to

testify whether or not this area met the

former -- the actual definition of a wetland

Theyre two different things You can have a

wetland and it ca1 still not be

jClrisd~ctional So itS our hope that the

Board doesnt misconstrue that to say that by

hiring different fgtxperts you were trying to

get a different result which was not the case

-- its simply that if youre looking at how

much flow what the funcions of values ar-e

its a very differert thing fran sorteone who

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caL go ou~ a~d do the soil samples to

determine whats hydric and whats not

Seco~d jus~ as with regard to the

credibility of the witnesses just as there

were some -- a case perhaps whee ac-I expert

witness misstated something or changed its

rnird 1 so did some of the government I s expert

wi tnesses misstate something that then had to

be co-ected So did the brief that said

that took the word and and changed it to

Or witr regard to what Justice Kennedy hadI

written So I dont think that that in and of

itself has any significarce wi th regard to the

credibility of a witness tihen we are talking

abcu lGVJ fa this land is from a navigable

water counsel has mentioned that it S 2600I I

feet middotrhich is about half a mile or 4200

feet which is close to a mile -- thats not

to reac-t a navigabe water Let us be clear

That is to reach something that is not

necessarily an intermittent area4 EPA

stipulated l the stipulations dated

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Septewer 8th 03 that the water body

depicted and ]i5 is nurrbers 37 and 38 that

the water bodies depicted as these drainage

ditches on the site are depicted by the USGS

topa rEap at the 3allary Hill (Phonetic)

quadrangle as a broken blue line and that a

broken bae line denotes an irtermi ttent

stream These are intermittent streams ard as

Justice Sheehan has correctly noted Judge

Scalia says n mary circ1JIstarces that

intermittent streams are not jurisdictional

waters of the U S HmAever if we tun to irlhat

Custice Kennedy says thats rhece we kind of

get into the eitheror what we also find

there is a great discussion by Justice Kennedy

loiClself on 1e Ccrps definition of a

tributary Counsel was referring to the

drainage ditches as t-ibutaries ard Justice

Kennedy makes it c~ear that the corps

definition of tributary that was in effect at

tr~e time this decision was -rritter middotJsing he

high watermark was not appropriate I and would

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lead in fact to too broad a definition of what

was jurisdictional i~ and of itsef under the

Clean Water Act And theres we dont have

time to read it all but Im sure youve

probably ead it more tirres t~an have

aryay iled also jtst lke to mention tha

qui te frankly the evidence that has been

introduced in this case is the type of

evidence the Cour was r~opng would not be

Csedo prove jurisdictior on such an

important issue and that is its speculative

Its not -- were not arguing that wetlands

arent irrportart J we arent arguing that

wetlands aralt valuabe anc you know in

1990 wed say regulate because we had the

legal authority to do so This again is one

of tlese cases t1at sirrply wishing that 1_e

Q C d h dfe I~upreree o~r~ naa sal some ~~g 1 ~eren~ y

does not make it so This is what the Court

said -- thats the final word on the mater

whatever we decide ~t is bu it S tre firai

word and we c~~t change that regardless ofl

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how mportant or ho wrong someone may think

that it auld be To other quick points to

mention and that is EPA knew about this work

that was going on in February of 1999 and

that is in Jeff Lapps testimony tn Volume 1

page 167 through 169 so EA did kno Most of

t~e woyk was completed by Aprii or May of that

year before EPA every CaIne out to the site

and it wasnt until 2000 chat a notice of

violation was issued

JUDGE SHEEHamp1 So why does that

matte- That is an enforcement choice EPA makes

every day of the week and its not part of

the record i~ has nothing to do with whether

or not the Kennedy or Scalia or any other test

was met It really doesnt seem to bear on the

legal issues here

11S vIILCHER Fair enough For

purpose of ~his arg~~e~tl for t~e pur~ose of

today youre probaDly right J-luge But i~

does matcer if were talking about typical

practice of EPA and while Im well aware that

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202) 234middot4433 WASHINGTON DC 20005middot3701 wwwooalrgrO$$oom

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theres no requirement to take an enforcemer-t

action in a1ything less trar this period of

statute of limitations if in fact this was as

egregious and as violative and as problematic

as counsel appears to make it seem then EPA

did have every opportlli~ity to stOy that and

in ITany many cases vlhen EP1 sees a clear

violation of the law I they simply issues a

cease and desist order and in a case like

Rapanos in the Rapacos case you have people

who are going out anc taking action and

violating the wetlands law after theyve

received many state and federal cease and

desis orders so the facts of this case are

so di==ere~t from the facts of tha~ case Here

we have someone who was trying to comply with

the law as it was written at the time in my

view he was complying with the law as it was

wri ten at tlat time actG the fact tha EPA

didnt like ~he way the law was written and

what it said and what the courts were

deciding does not give hem authority to come

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202) 234-4433 WASH1NGTON DC 20005middot3701 wwwnealrgrosscom

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in and regulate after the fact

JUDGE WOLGAST Counsel thank you

youre Olt of if you could make your

final point n just r~e next thirty secords J

I think you saie you had two I may be

mistaken

MS WILCHER Thank you Well we

are talkirg about jurisdictio1 I do think

tha tte overall =-ssJe of equity cotes i1to

play Ar~d knowing -- even krowing what the

jurisdiction was at the time of the activities

undertaken is really kind of an unc I Qar

matter Were still struggling with what

j Clrisdict iOI is Re9rettably toat s always

been t~e problem with this program

problem Igtli th this progral7l is that Corgress did

not give us clear direction and clear guidance

to either EPA or to the Boyds or to anyone

else in the regulative corrmlUnity and I t-hink

that s a factor certainly that the court Iblil

consider ard should corsder I when making a

decision on issues of liability and in this

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND tRANSCRIBERS

~323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW i202 234-4433 WASHINGTON DC roooS-3701 WWWlI$alrgmssOOffl

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case we would ask that you do so Thank you

J1DGE voLGAST Thank YOJ Cours

thank yOJ for your arguUent and the case is

now submitted

MS DURR All rise Session of the

Environmenta Appeals Board nmv stands

adjourned

(Whereupon the above-entitled

matter was concluded at 11 16 am)

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON DC 20005-3701 wwwnealrgrossoom

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CERTIFICATE

This lS to certify tha~ ~he foregoi~g transcript

in the matter of Snith Farm 3nterprises ILC

Hon Anna Wolgast E-wironmenta Appeals Judge

Date Jaly 20 2010

Flace Washingson DC

represens the ful and complete proceedings of the

aforementio1cd marter as reported and reduced to

typewriting

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCR8ERS

1323 rOOE iSLAND AVE_ NW (202 234-4433 WASHtGON DC 20005-3701 fNWnnalrqft)6Scom

Page 9: BEFORE THE ENVIRONMENTAL APPEALS BOARD IN ... By...MS. DURR: Environmental Appeals Board of the U~ited States Environmental Protec~ion Agency is now in session for oral argument, in

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what that meanS l a~d the regulated community

also rying 0 figure oat what it means

becalse it is simply not clear The Marks case

that said that you would select the nost

Earow of the interpretations n a case such

as this might be difficult to apply because

it S hard to figure out itlhat the most 1arrowI

cefinition or application of this case would

be Obviously from Smith Farms standpoint

we would be really delighted shou~d =h~s board

decide to follow the Ilarks opinion and decide

that the Scalia test would be the most

appropiae here bJt vere perfecty preparedl

to address both

JUDGE WOLGAST B~t that is -- but

yot-e assuning trat the narrowest grounds

would then be the pluralities test as opposed

to say I the narrowest ground sin-ply being

tha hey rejeced the Rapanos evicence ald

remanded the case In terms of what -- what

five justices could agree to It Jas simply

ocemand

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MS rLCHER rgthat f S rigrLt Thats

right But i s presumed trat the CO-clrt s

reasoni1g ar~d the four -- the opinion of the

four written by Scalia the opinion of

Roberts the opinion of Justice Kennedy all

rreant sameL-hing J and hat is what we are left

to vlork within and -shy

TUDGE SHEEHAN What do you think

cf the governme~ts argument trat either test

can apply as the First and Eighth Circuits

have held

MS WI~CHER well clearly a

nillnber of circuits have held that either test

Itould apply f ard in this case we we

believe that the evidence despicB what the

ALJs have found we believe the evidence

clea~ly shows that under neither test would

this area considered to be jurisdictional

~nder the curre~t interpretatio~ of the Clean

Water Act u~der Rapanos

And I really do think chat

not wanting to lose the forest for the trees

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here the forest -- the big picture is thatI

Rapanos is a dramatic shift in the way

busir~ess as usual has been done aL these

agencies from 1972 ~ntil 2006 It is -shy

in 2001 you had a little deviation here but

its a ilge dfference and what we find in

the brief -- and what we find in the brief of

t1e govermnent in this case is lot much of a

differerce from how the law previously lttas

interpreted and Ill -- Ill just go ahead

aYld address thae ssae and that is that the

the strongest argument it appears that

he government nakes in its brief dealing

with the significant nexus test is that

wetlands are ~rrponart ~1etlards provide

valuable functions and even Rapanos case

notes that the Clean V~ater Ac has been very

important and serves an important public

interests and Section 404 and the wetla~ds

laws i-l particuar provide ar~ irportant public

interest

JUDGE SHE1 Vie11 i 81 c the

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governments argument that these wetlands I in

particua are important I and can you address

how these wetlands do or do not meet the

Kennedy significant nexus test

fiS WILCHER That woud be t1e

goverlli~ents argument but in this case they

have failed cO co inCroduce by a

preponderance of the evidence ~hat that is

the case

JUJGE WOLGAST Coud you describe

for us what you ~elieve the goverr~ent would

have to show at a minimum to meet Justine

Kernedys significant nexus test in this

context

MS ~iILCHER At a mini~um they

wotd have to show some measure of the effec

that would be had by this wetlands property

upor~ a navigable vater of the Uni ed States

and they have not done so ln ary regard

JUDGE SHEEHIN Wasnt there

abunda1t testimony says the gDve=runent by

expert i1itness Martin and others that there

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was such a C oILleci en YOJ f re speakirg very

theoretically Id like if you could to get

specific about what you think the failu~es are

i~ the governments case on the Kennedy test

MS ~VIrJCHER Yes but if you -shy

+_--ne if you look at the gover1TIleuroEt s

argument one of their lengthy arguments is

about the impact 0 denitrification that

VJetlands provide an important deni trification

iss~eJ pointing out that the Chesapeake Bay

tas too rruch nityogen and tbat its important

to keep that out They talk about the fact

that n~toger coues from atrrosphe-ic

deposition They talk about the fact that

microbes in the soil vi22 break hat rtroger

down and then they talk about that once the

nitrogen is broken dmvr it ll be taken up by

the breeze and i If~ay even be given off again

into -- into the air

JDGE STEIN ltJasn f t there

plentiful testimony by government witnesses

and the companys witnesses as to what was

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occurr~ng specifically at this site I mean

I think the challenge for the compa~y i~ this

appeal 8 that there were credibili ty findings

Chat tiere made by the ALJ as to some of the

testimony by respondents by the companys

wi tnesses and given the Board f 5 standard forJ

crecibility determinations where the 30ard

you knovl historically ove many mar~y years

gives great weight to an ALJ~s finding how is

it ha t we can ove look he ALJ S credibi lity

determinations in the face of countervai~ing

evidence ~hat the ALJ found ~o be credible

(S WILCHER Judge Stel if I

can finish Judge Sheehans question I III ge

right back 0 you on that You were wanting

some specifics and an example of what the

government tried to prove in its case By

go~ng through this whole denitrification

process they nake ~o distinction betwee~ the

value that ris particalar wetlald is making

or any paricular wetland is making I to the

denitrification 0 the Chesapeake Bay

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JUDGE SHEEHAN But the Kennedy

tea says that if wetlands aloLe or in

combination with other wetlands have that

kind of effect

115 WILCHER Wetlands alone or in

corrbinato1 with otrer wetlands or in

combination lith the uplands the arguments

~ha t tbey ace laking wOClld apply equally to

uplands and as the court noted in the Rapanos

decision applying some of these tests as the

government histori cally has applied them to

say that they are jurisdictional sirrply

because hey have value and may be somewhat

miles aay hut may have some connection or

some val~e ~i~es away being speculative in

nature does rot cause it to be

jurisdictional and it sa~d i~ so the en~ire

United States would be considered regulated

llilder tbe Clear~ ater Act

JUDGE SHEEHAN Theres ~~ theres

one and cot to get in the vay of Judge

Steins question but Qne of the exhibitsr

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1323 RHOOE ISLAND AVE NW WASHINGTON DC 20005-3701 wwwnea~r0S3com

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Remand Exhibit 937 shows a very honeycombed

tissue through the Srith Farm weta1ds going

ou~ to the two rivers and then to the bay I~

looks sure _ surely to me it looks from this

exhibit and otes as if tl1e wetlands are very

proximate to and affect directly the waters

below Car you address that

KS WILCE2R I wil Those naps

do not show any actual measurable connection

nor do they show a contir1oJS surface

conE6ction r~avigable vrates

JUDGE SHEEHAN Why does it have to

be a surface connection tilly car_ t it be stbshy

surface if theres a hydrological link

MS WILCHER But theres ~o

showir~g of a silD-surface hydroogica liak

either Theres a total lack of evidence of

probative dence i~ th~s case to actualy

tie that paricu=-ar vletland Co a rcavigable

water which by the way you would have to gor

fcom tha wetland to a drair~age ditcr~ anc

went out there and traipsed down the site

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1323 RHODE ISlAND AVE 0W (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON DC 200JS3701 wwwnealrgrooscom

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before I came here to talk to you about this

but youd have to go fr~~ that -- b~t this ~s

all en the record -- YOlld have to go fron

that area that might be-- that part of it that

might be considered a we~land~ through

drainage di tches t1at are only inerrrit ert

in nature and t1e evidef~ce is clear that

theYre only intermittent in nature including

the USGS blue line dotted lines and then they

would have to go from tlere to Bailey Creek

non- navigable to Drurr Point Creek

non-navigable] then to tributaries of the

westeGl branch of the Elizabeth River I which

is t~e f rst tne you I d hi a ~avigable wate

If go in the opposite

direction they would have to go from drainage

ditches to Quake~ Neck Creek to ~eans Bra~ch

which are tributaries 0 tne ravigable water

the Nansemond River 14d so there there is

no proof that there is a connection

Things could lave been done Tne-e

cOmiddotJld have been dye raclgs there cOlld have

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been a~l kinds of evidence hey could have

taken samples they could have done

quantitative analysis There is no chemical

evidence there is no physical evidence there

is no biological evidence that connecs this

to a navigable water f and therein lies the

problem

JJDGE TO~GAST Justa if I

could follow up on that before we get back to

cred~bility iss~es

MS HLCHER Okay

JUDGE WOLGAST Are you saying that

the fact they floTlI throJgh ditches is a

jurisdictional problem

MS 1tILCHER Not particularly

JUXE vIOLGASI And the1 get ~ ing

back to the testimony that Judge Sheehan was

referring to where JIdge Morar was referring

to the testimony of Mr Rhodes and Mr Martin

that the property provides flood storage flow

moderaion carbOIl sequestration vlater

purification denitrification what I want to

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undsystard aboJt your argument 1s are these

aspects insufficient or would they be

sufficient if in your mind there was more

evidence of the connection of these attributes

to the Nansemond or Elizabeth Rivers

MS iILCHER EPA -- the govenment

cant simply say that wetlands are valuable

because they are-- help prevent flooding and

not show that they would help prevent flooding

in this particular case and that it would

significantly help prevent flooding in t~is

partcular case lrJha ttey have done toe

Drie is to siIply lay down he well-knoJl

attributes a~d valuable functions and values

of wetlands and said therefore this is

having a significant effect on navigable

~ivers Theye is not a co~~ection they have

lot snoltm by a1y credible evidence cause and

effect of any sigrifcant iIEpact tpon thef

navigable rivers

JUDGE SHEEHAN But you make

again a very theoretical argument about the

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fact Chat the goverruuent just argues wetlands

fgelerally but werer t government wi tnesses

crawling allover this property mul iple

times testify~ng at great lengtl lots of

exhibits aerials historc maps and

everythi~g else to show in this case fo~ this

property there was trat link Its hard to

believe with all that 11Bssive Estimony and

getting to ~he credibility issue that he

governrrent doesn~t have a pretty solid case

rat hat nexus sat) sfyilg the Kennedy test

exists

MS WILCHER It is hard to

believe I totally agree It is hard to

believe Tle governmert has had unfettered

aCCess to this property for over a decade and

have failed 0 develop flmr drainage elements

they cant show how illuch flows off the site

they cant show vhat type of sediment runoff

might have occurred at ~he site ~hey ca~tt

show what type of water retention is teld Jy

the site t~ey have been unable to show any

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ecoogical cC1nection 1tith regard to wildlife

there was a Woodcock seen on the site There

is absolutely -- and its amazing to me hat

tr~ere is a void

JUDGE STEIN But isnt the test a

nexus a significant nexus not this

sJbstantial inpacts est that I hear wove]

through some of your statements and T dont

-- when I go back and I look at the Kennedy

opinion you knot] and some of he hings t1at

are cited I dont necessarily see that that

test requires the level of proof that youre

stggesing is reqJired ny hat test So

perhaps you could explain to me based on the

Kennedy opinion how you get from there to the

level of proof Lhat you re a5~ing for f just to

establish jurisdiction

MS WILCHER Certainly

JUDGE STEIN I mean I we re not

here to determire you know penalty or

anything else were here just to figure out

if youre even i~ tbe door

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MS IILCHER Yes understand

Ie 1 1 what Justice Kennedy said was to talk

abmlt he fJay the Corps nac typically

regulated wetlalds and then to say absent

more speciic regulations however the Corps

must establish a significant nexus on a case

by case bBSS wler it seeks to regulate

wetlands based on adjacency to non-navigable

tributaries and then it goes on to say given

the potential over breath of the Corps yen s

regulations this showing is necessary to

avoid unreasoDable applications of the

statute

The justice wrote I no~ just a

~exus if the COurt had only said there has to

be a nexus then o~e would have a different

burden of proof in this case the court said

a significant nexus and we have to assnne

that a significant nexus is meaningful that

those words mean SOIEethi1g So theres a -- at

least a two-step process One to show that

theres a nexus and the other is to show that

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its significant and that is what the record

is devoid 0 in this particular case

JUDGE SlEIN But its not a

significa1t impact its a significant nexus

MS iILCHER Thats right a

significant nexus And the sigrificart rexus

must -- and if YOu read through the rest of

the case it talks abolt hm -- that in order

to regulate land as water there must be some

type of impact on the water

JUDGE SHEEHAN Justice Kennedy

also uses a phrase that think is pertinent

here r he says that the how -- how the proof is

determined has to be done in a practical way

ard i almost sounds as if what you I re

requiing is that the governrrent set up flow

meers or pour a vial of discharge into a

ditch and see if it eventually ends up in the

Chesapeake or do something on a very

impractical scale to prove ~he connectio~

MS WILCHER You know this is a

really important issue The governrrent has to

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do sOIething oJer than to make allegations r

especially in a case where youpoundre dealing with

constitutional issues such as privae property

rights and how one car jse his own property

or hers and in this case I there are lots of

things tha~ EPA historically has done for

ypcal NPDES cases But when you before he

Board on a NPDES case theres at least some

measure If they had had pictures that there

las a plurne comir_g off of this wetlar~d if

theyd done any flow calculations if theyd

had any physical chemical biological

evidence of a nexJS and a signiican- nexus to

the navigable waters which again( are not the

ditches they are the ditches that flow to the

creek that flow 0 the creek that flow 0 the

navigable waters j then it would be a different

case but that is not what has happened in

this case

JUDGE IJOLGAST Well as you say

the goverIl1lent obviously has the burden of

proof i~ a~ eLfo~cerne~t case l but is this the

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same type of evidence that you thirk a

_a~Qowne~ should Lndertake I mean obviouslY

they have the burden to obtain a permit where

there is potential jurisdiction

I~S ~JILCaER Btt if the person

doesnt obtain a permit ~~ and the government

thinks that theyre i~ error again the

government always has the burden of proof

JUDGE vJOLGAST Right but J 1m

talking about getting a -- yOJ know starding

in the landowners shoes before weve ever

gotten to an enforceme1t case it -- it I

mean I ~h~nk theres some iSS48 with getting

back to the Supreme Court case that one of

he things that were concerned about - at

least lJustice Scalia pointed to was how much

evidence time money it takes to vJOrk

thro~gh ~h~s process and it sou~ds like the

yeLl know r the advocacy here is that there

should be more not less

)15 ~JLC1ER There stou1d be

something dore by the government in thi s

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regayd to actually prove a nexus and a

sgnificant nexus ard in this ease I canr

assuye you Judge Wolgast that the l~downer

has go~e above and beyond the oall of duty

going to the Corps time after ti~e having the

Corps ou to tr~e site and having spent talk

about the time and money and investmert having

his case as understand it having spent

over $800 000 in litiga~ion costs to try to

pr-otect what was legal at tl~e time that it was

aone and so -- so there is a burden

The governme1t has the burden aid

in this case in this par~icular case they

failed to meel it I don I t know why I haven [t

been involved that lor~g ~ would speculate

tl1at by the time he Rapanos case cane along

it V~as jlSt too hard to go back and find the

type of probative evidence that would carry

the cay_

I do not necessaily thirk that

its an impossible tas~ There have been ot~er

cases that ve reviewed aihere the goverrUent

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has irtroduced evidence of the poundows tr~e

amount of drainage that has occurred how much

water might be taken up by a wetland area$ but

none of that was done in thi s particular case

and again we can only speculated why that

was the case

JDDGE STIN How does tr_s S~xth

Circuit decision in the Cundl f f matter bear on

your view that the -- you need some sort of

laboratocy araysis to prove h~s7

MS ~VILCHER in that

particular easel you dont have as I ~ecall

the -- the disarce roIT a navigable waer

tha t we have here [ and I think the farther you

are away from a navigable water the harder it

is 0 prove tha~ theres any impact on that

navigable water and in this -- again in this

case they are far away from a navigable

water and I think toe reaSC1 tha~ we don

see the p=oof is because its not there itS

not developable and that is why it is not

Cere Did yOl wart De to ~~

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JUDGE STEIN I do wact you to get

the credibility question

MS bull WILCHER I dian t t want to

forget your - shy

JUDGE STEIN No while we we~e on

this topic why cor t t yOJ addres s the

credibility question

MS vILCHER I think its an

important question IC t S a real important

question and that is simply that s even though

the regtllatior~s do provide that typicaily when

the ALJ hears the witnesses and makes

determinations 0 ~~eir credib~~ity that

typically this Board will defer to that

However in this case a carefctl review of the

record shows that the ALJs just got it wrong

and it is within this Boards prerogative to

look at the -- look at t1e factors tha

that the ALJs used in making their

deterninatior and make a judgreJt aboJt

wl1ether those factors are sufficient

A couple of examples There was a

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mar who had Iived OT the farm for h~rty years

who testified that he I d walked over the farm

for thir~y years and testified that in fact

Ithe streams J or the drainage di tches were

intermittent in nature and did not carry water

I - 1 h d - a11 th e trre bull e __ t e JU ge ~n tHe QeClS10n

said well I think hes a nice man I think

hes beholden to the Smi ths f and he was just

Ollt or a wa so totally just discounted his

testimony saying he WBS just out on a walkJ

as if that meant t~at somebodywQuldnt no~ice

DGE ~vOGAST ~ Are yot saying

though that it would have to carry water all

tre time

MS vHLCHER No no But but

it f s clearly -- is Eot a navigable water lor

it is adjacent nor is the wetland adjacent to

a navigable water in this case It flows

anything t~at =lows opound= of t~at a~ea that has

been considered to be wetland by the

goverr-Uent flows -rxough drainage ditches

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that are only intermittent in nature and

~herefore are ~ot co~sidered to be navigable

watsYs clea~ly urder the Rapanos decison

JUDGE SHEEHAN But if the man

walking the land said that they were

intermittent and youre saying intermittent

doesnt matter

I~S IgtlILCHER Were saying that -shy

Judge Cha~eski as I recall said tha~ there

was a c01tinuOU5 flow of 5088 kind isnt that

-- d~~lt J~dge Char~eski say that

WOLGAST lrJell Justice

Scalia said that even after that -shy

HS WILCHER Right right

JUDGE WOLGASl That that

seasonal flow could establish jurisdiction

~nder the pluralitoes test

148 t-JILCEER BJt there s not beenj

seascnal flow established -=-n this case Yot

have somebody going out there en particular

days after these ditches have been dug which

we all know alter the flow in drainage after

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the eLi tches are dug ftJaer goes to the lowest

level and so theres going to be more water

draining OU= of there t~a~ ~here would have

been in 1998 and 1999 and that -- that is

clear ~tat ~tere is no ev~de~ce ac the time

this was done they were -- they were anything

but inerYlitten and here l s no j1risdictiola1

connection that they have proven to date

JUDGE ~JOLGAST And what do you

think they would have had to have shown to

show seasonal flow

MS ~IILCHER Well they could

have done something more than go out there

nine times over tbe course of a year rrhey

could have had aerial photographs taken Ihey

cod have -- weil first yOl have the uSGS -shy

you have the USGS maps as showing its

inteYrnittent and theres lierally no

testimony en the record right now to show that

theyre anything but interrrdtent Ot-her than

to say that if somebody goes out there ~ine

Cimes and looks at the flow and sees water

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then -- agair~1 keeping ir mind this was years

atel 1_8 dainage d=- tches tver-e dtg ha t were

channeling more water into the old one through

seven drainage areas there B nothing tof

establish what was the~e at ~he time in 1998

a~d 1999

JUDGE VlOLG~rST And I think

isnt this what courts are struggling with in

the sense that its -- its one thing to say

~ts ~~ter~itte~tf b~t is that good enough I

mean I dont you have to figure out just how

much flow in you know what period of time

or the idea that -- I dont -- if someoae

says t~at its intermitte~t Irr not sure that

means its ir~ or out without further evidence

MS WILCHER Right Well that

shows really the that shows arguably a

cQnYlecion Bu how rrlcr =ow is going through

there whether sediment loading is going

through there whether theres an ecological

connection through there all these whethers

lead to whether t~e~e is a sig~ificant nex~s

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to a navigable water and if you look at some

of the other cases ~here has been that kiLd of

information introduced and in this case there

is none

JUDGE vJOLG1ST hhat case are you

thinking of

MS vJILCiER I thirki1g maybe

t was the Precon case ir - - in the Eastern

District of Virginia Its on appeal in the

Fourth Circuit I may r~ve been ~hat BJt

I 11 be happy to provide some cases -- a case

or cases later on that show the type of

evidence that tas been introdJced because I

remember reading about them and cant think of

the name right now

TlDGE SHEEIiAN I Vant to go back

for a moment to Judge Stein J s question about

credibility

gtIS CLCHER YOS

JUDGE SHEEHAN So ALJ Moran sat

through days and days of testimony on the

bench a lot of pecple ~n ~~at witness chair

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Hes there hes on he scere hes

~nterpreting the way the witnesses speak and

their basic credibility which you can only do

face to face in that way Wha~ is it about

what happened there that causes you to think

theres sOne way or some reason for as not to

credit the typ~cal deferehce we would extend

There must be some exception here that we ~eed

0 know about for that to happen

MS WLCHER tAJel1 r ard there are

a few facts that I think would be relevant to

your consideration in that case In the first

instance some of these wi~nesses that the ALJ

deter~ined were not credible --Jere stipJlated

as being expert vtitnesses and hat shows at

least sorre level of credibility in the mind of

the government w th regaro to whetJ~er they

were experts in the field

Second some of the criticisms

in one case a criticism that an ALJ made of an

expert wi tness was that he had not beer~ 0 the

site often enocgh yet vith one of the

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gover~ors -~ goverG~entls expert witnesses

that person had been to the site less times

t1an t1e Srith Farms expert witress A1C SO

there is a confounding sense that in this

particular case for whatever reason if the

experts agreed ~ th r~e goverr_rne1t f they were

credible and that if they di~~t they were

not

It just seems highly unlikely that

every single witness iltroduced by Smith

Far~s and Ive had the pleasure of working

wi th Mr Boyd and it lS just I think

statistically urEkely that one could End

that many unmiddotmiddotmiddotcredible witnesses and in thisf

case I do not believe that they were not

credib2e I believe they were as credible ald

as I mentioned in some cases were stipulated

in beirg expert w~t~esses ~~

JUDGE SHEEHAN So you didnt

believe they were

HS WICHER I did not bel ieve

they were not credible so I believed that

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they were credible And -- and it is sOIEewhat

confoundirg other than to say that the

closest thing that I could figure out was that

if hey supported t~e governments viev tey

were credible and if they did not support the

governments Vlew I they were not

CJDGE trrOGAST But dien f t Judge

Moran find that -- and to generalize ---- that

the witnesses failed to establish that to the

exent t1ere were weta1ds they -lere isolated

by on-hydric soil lasnt that a central part

of his credibility determination

MS ~vILCHER Well trat S O1e of

the findings that Judge Moran made but in

this paricular case keep in mind its not

Smi Parms tha-c has 0 show that there is a

break or a barrier -- its the government who

has to show that the~e is a con~ection

JUDGE liOLGAST Of

understand Right

HS IIILCHER So theres cerainly

pockets of non-hyd~ic soil in tte area and

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for SOle reaSCl EPA _ ar~d again this is just

ki~d of amazing to me

spent this long on that EPA did not go out

there and do a typical delneaion of the

site and this is something that is cypically

done Its amazing that EPA did not issue a

cease and desist order as soon as t~ey ~~ew

abouc it There are many things that to me

are amazing about this case that quite

frarky I are he easor that I came nere to

argue it Because lIm a strong believer in

protecting the Clean Water Act and in

protec~ing lteta-ds and you mayor may lOot

know from my history I I bear a lot of scars

from having trIown myself in the body of

wetlands protection bac~ in the days ana I

still believe its an important thing to do

But I also believe its important to follow

~~e rule of law and ~n chis case Mr Boyd

made every effort to follow the rule of law

and I bel ieve he did and when it did not work

out tte way that EPA wanted the law to be

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this enforcement action came forward at a

time -- and had they intervened early on i~

t~is case they cou~d have stopped They knew

months before the work was cOITpleted -- hey

knew months before the work was completed that

there was ditching and draining going on

t~ere and trey did no move in quickly to try

to resolve that case ar~d they could have -shy

they could have stopped most of the so called

harm that they are now alleging but chose not

to do so ~~ey dd ~ot do a deineaLion they

did not inroduce proof that this particular

part of property has a significant nexus to

jurisdictional waters of the United States to

a navigable water of the United States I and

thats the reason I~ he~e

JJDGE VJOLGASI I see your time is

expired if theres no other questions

MS WILCHER Thank you

MS S~J~ET~ Good morning You=

Honors My name is Stefania Shaliat and I

represent Region III in this matter

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specifically the complainants who are the

division directors for the Environmental

Assessment a1d Irr~ovation Divisio1 and he

vater Protection Division I at EPA Regio11 III

With me at counsel table Id like to

i~troduce DO1la Carner-Tal f who is regulatory

co-msel for the Nc-folk District Army Corps of

Engineers and Karen ~lendelowskl gt who is with

the office of general cour~sel and also we

have a disirglshed g1e8 1$ d lke to

introd~ce -- si~~ing behind me is Dr Dennis

Whigham with the Smithsonian Environmental

Resea=cr Cente- Your Honors responders have

do~e ~~ if I ca~ get in a couple points -- a

good job of obfuscating what are really very I

very simple facts here The simple facts are

hat these are tllelands perfouuiq docurrenced

functions that are delivered to tributaries

These wetlands are adj acent physically

trose trib-ltaries f ard those

tr lbtacies flow to traditiorally navigable

waters to the West 2600 feet away to the

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East 4200 feet away In other words the are

wetlands adjacent to tributaries that low

waki1g clstance to tr-adi ional1y navigable

waters These Vetlfu1ds were jurisdictional

under SWANCC as respondent conceded in Clean

~later Act Appeal mmber 05-05 when respondent

reseved argll1snt on jtrisdicto1 but chose

not to raise it un~il there was a change in

case law They continue to be jurisdictional

under any standard enunciated by he Supreme

Court in Rap~~os The qJan~u~ of proof offeree

by the complaina1ts i1 this matter not only

exceeds preponderance of the evidence it

exceeds any quantum of proof required by

Rapanos In fact t far exceeds it Another

thirg that is obscured in the ar9J11ent here by

the respondents is that up until 2007

respondents had a different set of expert

witnesses It las tlose expert witresses that

coroplainalts stipulated 1heir expertise was

in wetlands identification and the connection

of wetlands to waters of the uniced States

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Ihose witnesses largely agee with

complainac1t I s version of the facts on the

ground ae-d i wasnt until 2007 when

respondents hired a new set of expert

witnesses that any real dispute arose about

what exactly was going on in the site There

was dispute about ithat hat nean f but not

exacly what the physical characteristics of

t21e si te ere

J1DGE WOLGAST Counsel coud you

address Ms wilchers points that while there

may be flow moderation carbon sequestration

there may be some evidence that the government

hasnt shmlTI a nexus between those

characterist~cs and the ~avigable waters

vIS SHAME Sure First of alI

the evi6erce of Je fuYlctions beirg performed

on this S1 te is not speculative There are

photo after photo and testimony after

testimony the governments evidence is based

or established scientific literature that

identifies something called field indicators

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-- physical characteristcs on the ground -shy

that when identified correlate to a specific

functi~n being formed by the wetland In this

case there are three Tr~e first was fow

noderaiou and one of the physical

characteristics thez-e would be such things as

ponding you see a lot of later being

captured in low levels depressional levels

withir the wetland Tle record conta1s dozens

of photos of that The secord is

denitrification and that is the microbes

llptaking nitrogen in the soil That indicator

is something called modelirg i1 he soil It sI

a red spotch Essentially it IEeans that iron

is there That evidence comes not only from

the complainants but if one were to reviel

the soi 18 expert froIT respordent Dr Parkers

O~ I-fr arlter f s firs expe~t repo-t ir

20C3 he describes modeling in his sails The

third is primary production That is the1

contribution of a food source Taking

transforming organics that a2e in the _- in

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nature into a food source in water that then

tralsports that food source dowYlsream to

higher trophic organisms The best evidence of

that actually comes from one of respondents

experts Dr Cahoot 1110 photographed it

leaving the site I cant find the photo at

the marneYlt f blt I 11 describe what he says

Foaing a he confluence of the ditch

leaving the property with ditches along the

property boundary near the railroad This foam

vias also sampled and examined microscopically

--- it contained primary plant debris some

peller ald rllnero-lS sma oil droplets These

oil droplets in my opinion were probably

plant oils derived froI decomposition of the

organic matter in this area That description

correlates perfectly with the description in

the testimony in tZ1e remand hearng about what

primary production s the transport of

particulate and dissolved organics downstream

as a food sOJce So the -Jse 0 the -- t~1e

functions this case are not speculative

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theyre clearly being per-formed theyre

clearly being cocC1ented as beir~g perforrred on

this wetland Theres also evidence of the

hydrologic connection between this wetland

the ibuaries and the downst-eam

trad~tionally r~avigable waers Again that

comes both frOIE complainant ~ s experts as well

as some of respondents experts one of

respondent I s experts described tr_at hydrologic

co~nectio3 as such He descrbed the wetland

as a table tcp on which somebody pours water

the water comes off of that table top into

the ditches and then tansports down to the

taditional1y navigable waers The sane

expert lgtIr Wolf also agreed that the

wetlands on the site were in fact

hydrologically conYlected to the di tches wr~ich

forrr tributaries and lJlere n fact adjacs1t to

them So we also have fUTIction ard we have

transport Now with respect to Ms Wilchers

corrment -shy

JUJGE WOLGAS~ is YoDr

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posi tion on the type of evidence that you

need to show nexus of

characteristics you see on site to the

navigable waters

gt1S SHAtvET My positio1 is tha we

met it exactly and I would refer you to

Justice Kennedys opinion Justice Kenledy

ide~tified the type of functions that he would

consider to form a significant nexus

traditional navigable waters and those are

p~ecisely the functions that were identified

on this site Specifically Justice Ker-nedy

refers to slowirg COt-C of surface runoff r

filtration and purification -- that would be

in on 547 US 773 to 75 He sta~es with respect

to weta1ds f the rationale for the Cleal ~fater

Act regulation is as the Corps as recognized

that vetlands can perforrl cri tica2 functioES

re2-ated to the integrity of other waters

functions such as pollutant trapping -- in

other words l denirifcatior~ -- flood control

flow moderation and ruriOff storage

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Ther-efore the types of functions that we

docrraented as beng performed or this site are

precisely the ypes of unctiors tha Jusice

Ken1edy ide1tified J in his opinion as the

type of functions that form a significant

nexus

JUDGE SHEEHAN In in your

brief on page 46 you say that the Kennedy

Test requiEs weta1ds cont-ibutions to the

physical c1emical or biologic in-egrity of

doOrIlstream waters -- is it nor or Hand Your

brief says or

MS SHAMET The brief says II or -shy

JUDGE SHEEHAN Because if it can

De just one of those -shy

SHA4ET I believe Justice

Kennedy did use and however it is c2ear

that he does not require a function to

contribute to all ~hree factors and chats

clear from the function he identifies

JUDGE SHEEHAN Then why did he say

and

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MS SHAMET I think he said and II

but he had a comraa and a1d he was -eferring

to a list of examples rather than a standard

i1ith respect to Ms Wilchers cormnent that we

dont have any photographs of pltLnes as I

indicatedf one were to trt 0 R Ex 28 f

which llnfortunatey I can f find right now I

ltlhich is Respondent 1 s Exhibit 28 from the

first hearing in 2003 Dr Cahoon provides a

picture of that plume himself I would also

point out that with respect to

denitriication one wouldnt expect to see a

pInrr -- thats the exact point its to hold

Che nitrogen on the wetland -lot send it

downstream

JUDGE STEIN How is the Rapanos

significant nexus test d_fferent if at all

=rom the nexus i~ Rivervew Rverside

Bayview

MS SHAMEl Riverside Bayvie

assumed a nexus based upon adjacencYi in this

case lJustice Kennedy has asked that we

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actually go forward and establish that the

nexus exists rather than simply assuming itI

based On adjacency

JUDGE SHEEHamp~ on page 41 of your

brief you quote some of the tesciroo1Y of the

first ALJ hearing I which sounds a lit~le more

entative to me tha1 youre souidir_g today

about the substa1tial nexus test being met

The brief~ at page 41 reads that these

wetlands are more likely to perform

denitrification more likely to allow for

suspended settlements -- sediments to settle

out~ more likely to support a different suite

of wildlife species that to me is

lar-guage ~rats ~ot qui~e as powerful as

saying there is a substantial nexus met here

that just sounds -- can yo~ address what seems

to be more diffident language in your brief

than what youre articulating today

MS SHAMET Well as Your Honor

pointed out T the language that you pointed to

in the brief is from the 2003 hearing before

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tr~e Rapanos case As the Board is avlare J he

EPP~ agreed and argued that the evidence to

satisfy Rapanos had not been fl11y developed

as of 2003 and this precisely why we

requested a remand

JUDGE SHEEHAN But youre cit i ng

it here filed long after Rapanos as if its

still your position

MS SHAME~ I cited a lot of other

evidence as lJell Your Honor incLuding the

testimory of Mr Rhodes he testi~cny of Dr

~fhigham and the testimony the f1Tther

estimony of Hr Mart So while that is a

piece of evidence it is certainly not the

only evidence cited in our brief

JUDGE WOLGAS~ ~o go back to the

point you were making earlier about how the -shy

in essence the three-part test is the same

type of evidence yo~ would look to to

establish sign~ficant nexus ard Justice

Kernedy did seer to speak to hat saying much

the sarre evidence I referring to tre Corps ssect

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delineation manual type evidence should

P8nnit the establishment of a significant

nexus witr navigable wates

particularly if supplemented by further

ev~dence abou~ the significance of the

tributaries to which the wetlands are

cO11ected How does the gove-nment interpret

the latter part of that quote

MS SILllltlECmiddot I think that the

government needs to show and has shown in

this case that there is an ability of those

trihttayies Co conect the wetlands to a

traditionally navigable water in such a way

that the poundtnctions are delivered In this case

we have certainly shown the hydrologic

cO1nect=-o1 some of respondents expe-ts have

agreed with us that that connection exists and

tha there is sufic8Ylt ~hat there is

water exchange there and weve also shown

that heres proxirrity here again these are

walking distance to traditionally navigable

waters this is not the Rapanos case where it

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traveled 32 miles So we think we have met

that burden here by sho~Jing the hydrologic

connection and showing that these tributaries

are capable of delivering the function With

respect to cr-edibi=-ity and he points that

Your HOlors asked of AS Wilcher I would just

point out tha~ lTudge lvlorans credibility

determination was based on demeanor and also

on the facts of this case An important fact

to note for insta11ce is in the firstF

r~earing in 2003 respondent I s soils exper

who laid a g=id fOJnc 53 ou 55 sarnples

hydric The only two that were non-hydric had

JUDGE STEIN I couldnt hear you

MS SHApoundT Had 53 Oelt of 55 soil

sa~ples he identified as hydric in the site

soEs or ei ther side In the secord heaocilg

Dr Pierce testified that there was

essentially non-hydric soils everywhere And

on cross-examination he was asked didn t youI

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find any hydric soils and he said oc yeah

I found them I just didnt click on my GS

locator and ider~tify where they were and I

just didn It report them He only reported the

non-hydric soEs That is the kind of thing

that happened that caused Jtdge l-loran 0 find

a lack of c-edibility vvlth respect to 9r

Straw Dr Straws expert report disc1ssed

undulations in the landscape that he

interpreted to mean ere were no wetlands

tlere On the sand he conceded trat there

were no u1dulaions on tr~e landscape -- he had

mis~nterpreted the aeria= photo More

importantly he conceded ~hat he knew about

ha t erroy before the hearing and leverf

corrected it until cross-exa~ination Judge

Moran had ample basis for finding no

credibility on those witnesses

JUDGE SEIN Is it your view tha~

the Board has no authority to overrale an

ALJs credibility determination

MS SHAl-1ET No YOJr Honor the

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Board reviews he case de novo lffuile the

Board certainly defer to the ALJ r s credibili ty

determination what I run saying that in this

case t~ere is no basis for overturn~~g it

JUDGE STEIl If we were to

overturn it -- a credibility determination

what kinds of factors r it your view s1ould 18

be taking into aCCo4nt

MS S~~~ET I would think you

oelld be looking to see whether or not the ALJ

has a rational basis oh gosh I hate to use

legal standards like that -- but some sort of

bass or hich he based his credibiliy

deerrtination that he explained why there was

a lack of credibility and I think in this

case he did so amply

JUDGE SHEEHAJ If Ms v~i 1 cher S

correct characterizing the way testimony

cedibclity went i soanced almost like a

hundred percent credit to government

witnesses and practically zero to

respondens witnesses f tratg acctrate

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jus stipulat-=-ng 0 trat assumption - - if

t~atfs accu~ate would that be a basis fer not

allcwing deerence to Jdge Morans

credibility determinations if its so

lopsided

ocs SH_~ET In this case I would

say no just simply because in this case we

have a classic battle of the experts I but

oddly enough the ba~~ling experts are al on

respondents side And )hat we have are

experts whD ~estif~ed in 2007 who flat

disagreed wit the testimony of respordent S

experts in 2003 without any atterrpt by the

2007 experts or respondents to reconcie

that testiITony Given that circumstance it sf

not surp-isirg that the experts in 2007 s

testimony were given very litte weight One

of the things that Hs ltJilcher referred 0 was

unfettered access to the site If anyone had

u~fettered access to the site~ it was

respondent and yet there are no photos in the

record showing the streaL~S leaving the site

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dry except during a drought

JUDGE VOLGAST But her point was

tha t the goverrunert ~as the bmiddoturden here

MS SHlHEI And the burden -- he

government has met the burden In fact in

this case the preponderance 0 the evidence

literally the only evidence other than

testirrony by the site owner testimony by

someone who walks around a three-hu1dred-acre

site hunting and looki1g for damage in che

fieds which lS what he estified he was

doing there and photographs taken during a

d--ought he oV9rtlhe=Iilg evidence is that the

waters do flow on a regular basis First of

all these waers have been napped the

waters leaving the site -- as flovving water by

USGS for hal f a century

JUDGE vIOLGAST Yo mentioned that

the waters flow on a regular basis Is that a

conir~uols bas~s

MS SHAMET We would say it would

be part of every year Your Honor

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JUDGE SHEEHAJ Tlen W1Y 18 that

necessarily continual The Scalia Test now

that veve 901e to continual flow is jilst

that -- there has to be continual flow He

says even the least significant of the lake

river ocealS or streams the four water

bodies the least significant steams has to

have COlticua you

repeatedly say - make other instances that

are to me a lot less cor~fdent t1~an what

Scalia seems to deilland You say page 31 the

drains flow at least part of every yeari page

35 at least SOme portion of every year at

least at least at least it comes up

repeated-ly in YOlr brief vlhich couid be just

one rain event So theres one rain at least

it flows one or two days after the rain aod

thats certainly a far cry I would argue

from continual So can you address the seeming

gap between your statemen~s and what Scalia

seems to demand as far as continual flow

~S SHk1ET Ie would state that

Your

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Justice Sca~ia described re1ativey permanent

wateYs He made pretty clear wrat teose were

He did~t require any specific n~~er of days

of flow -- what he did say was common sense

and common usage distinguished between a wash

and a seasoral river and tha f s in foot1ote

five respondent likes to use the term

intermitten~ a lot but the one thing it is

clear from footnote 5 is that Justice Scalia

does not give the term intermittent any

ocegulatoY import trJhy Because he

specifically decli~ed ~o define it

JUDGE SHEEHAN Why doesnt he give

it regulatory import when at least seven

tirres by ely count in his opinion he says

iEtermi tent waters do not cca11 fy as

jurisdictional -- he even calls it an oxymQron

ac one point

~S SHAMET Even though he does

not -- he declines ~o defihe it He says that

thee are defiritions 0 nterrnttent bu he

sees 10 reason to identify what tlose are

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here I and then he specifically says I We have

no occasion in this litigation to decide

exacty whe1 he cryirg up of a streambed is

continuous and frequent enough to disqualify

tle channel as a water 0 the Cnited States

~jUDGE SHEEI-IAN I know we can t -shy

aobody knows what intermitter~t meaJs with

aOsol~te rigor thas obviously subject to

interpretation But the fact is he

contlnmiddotually rejects intermitten~ waters

whatever that Ireans as jurisdictional a1d

you say intermittent doesnt matter I dont

know how yot can say lat in the face cf al

his statements that intermittent does w~tter

HS SHAMET I think the evidence

dernorstrates pretty clearly that ther-e is

regular flow on a regular basis in these

wateTs A good exaTIple

JUDGE SHEEH1ll~ Im not talking

about the eviderce 1lT talking about the

standard

MS SHAIjET The standard lS that

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there has to be a relatvely pe-mar_ent tvater

It cant be a wash it cant be someLhing that

flows only occasionally only in response co

a very strong rainfall i~ cant be a gutter

It has to be a geographic feature ~~d in this

case we have USGS mapping these as geographic

features conainng Vlaer for over ffty

years which if thatis not relatively

permanent I In not qui te sure what would be

JUDGE SHEEHAN C-ne1 how else - shy

why else -- why is it that you cannot muster

more behind your argument that these are

lowing dyains tha1 just saying at least part

of the year continually You never say its

continual you never say its relatively

permanert ane not interrrittert you seem to

stay away from saying that and it seems

purposeful because it happens so frequently

1 S SHAHET ~J e dont

over~exaggerate our evidence we say what it

is And in this case what we r re saying is Ie

agree hsse styeams dry up for part of ~he

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year VJe f ve never argued that these were

perennial streams because theyre not They

are streams that only flow for part of the

year But part of the year is good enough

1nder Jtstice Scalia f s test These are rot

washes theyre ~ot t ckles When they flow

t1ey flow As Jlldge Mo-an pointed out I the

record is replete wi th photos of these streams

flowing and floling wi th a good arnount ofI

water them Now for exanpJe -shy

JUDGE SHEEHlll Flowing at least

part of the year right

MS SHAME~ Flowirg at least part

of the year If I could get the photo up An

example is ~his series of photos~ if we can

get it up If not Ill jus give tre exhibit

numbers Not a perfect picture This photo was

taken in December 2006 As you can see

theres visible flow in the stream A1d this

is Complainants Exhibit 328 co~plai~ants

Ex-hibit 308 - sarre sreart same location you

can tell by the cross January 07 J still

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lt- Low~ng

JUDGE SHEElI1N ~Iha t does tha t

realy prove YOJ cOl-=d go out right after a

rain as apparently happenedi apparently Dr

Whigham went out afte rain irw 07 ard Judge

Moran noted that he was out two days after a

big rain so naturally the drains were full

DJ showing us occasiQral ~-

IS SHAlyenjET If you can show four

sraight lonths of floN f think youre

probaby doing pretty good This is O1e of

respondent I S exhibits This is Dr Straws

photo ta~er_ in February 2007 This s

Respondents Exhibit 57pp

JUDGE VJOLGASI I (IT sory 1 whose

testimony was ~his

MS SHAMET Dr Straws The other

~h~ng that is documeGted -- Im just going to

go ahead and give you April April 2007 still

flow This is Complainants Exhibit 391 and

just ia case were llorried about March e

dont have March 2007 we have March 2003

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JIDGE SHEEHAN What drain is that

MS SHAMET This is Complainants

Exhibit 102L

JUDGE SHEEHAN What drain

MS SHAMET This is the portion of

drait six- seven as it leaves the si-se

crosses unde~~ea~h the railroad tracks to che

west and leaves the site We would also noce

chat in che 2003 hearing it was established

ard Judge ChaYlJeski acc6ped ordinary hig

watermark for the duration of the streams

leaving the site from the time they leave the

site cntil the time they wa~king distance

away hit traditionally navigable waters Now

whIle Justice Scalia said that existence of an

ordinary high waternark in and of itself does

not estabJish jurisdicion it does remair a

fact on the ground that shows the preseTlce of

f~c~J O-1r b~ief did cite in a footnote a

number of cases that describe what an ordinary

high water mark means and what it basically

means is that theres water there on enoJgh

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of a regular basis that theres no

vegetation and Dr Straw in poirtig at that

photo 57pp poined out that there was an

ordinary high watermark there e believe that

we 1ave s~ovm t2lougt t~1at eviderce as well is

that theres a regularity of flow through

these water bodies tJi th respect to Ms

~iilcher f s suprise that EA did not issue a

cease and desist order we in fact did we

issued an admif~istrative order n 2000 I

doat have the record citatio~ with me bu~ I

believe it was testified to in the 2003

tearilg In addi tion tlith respec 0 YIs

Wilchers conunent that EPA knew about the

operation before it was completed and didnt

intervere ~rat is also not correct In Culy

of 1999 EPA contacted respondent and

requested a site visit A- that time the work

was not done l6 site visit was scheduled in

-- they did the scheduling In July and the

visit was schedJled in September and in

August respor~dent brought equipment to the

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site and finished it up to present EPA with a

fai t accompli Couple other points There I s

bee~ a ~w~er of debates i~ t~e b~ie= about

briefs about whether or not there are in

fact wetlands on the sice and whether or not

they extend all the way to the tributaries

First of all ~othi~g in Rapanos altered the

EEe~gy and Water Developmert Appropriations

Act of 1993 Public Law 102377 106 Statutory

at Large 1315 in which Congress directed the

Corps of Eng~leers to use t~e 1987 wetlands

delineation nanual until a replacement manual

was established the courts have

recognized deference to the Corpss 1987

manual as the agencys interpretation of its

OvT regulatiors That manual was applied in

this case That manual when applied in this

case identifies wetlands throughout the site

JUDGE SHEEHAN A~e these -- are

these wetlands these draircs are tl_ey fed by

a1Y other source than rain

MS SHAMET No Your Honor These

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wetlands are what are called the top of the

watershed and this is why water flows in two

directions off of this site -- it flows both

west and east because its at the top of the

watershed

JUDGE SHEEHAN So any water on the

site its all rain-fed

MS SHAMET Yes The seasonality

of it however I can be established through

testimony regarding how the plants on this

site interact with that precipitation And

that testimony discusses the relationship

between whats called leap out and

transpiration In other words when the leaves

are on the trees the trees are uptaking water

from the ground -- from the groundwater table

and the groundwater table decreases and

thats why you see lower levels of water in

the summer During the winter when the leaves

are off the trees the trees are not

transpiring yet -- the water table rises and

thats why these are seasonally flowing

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s~reams and seasoca~ systems

JUDGE SHEEHAN Is there any

testirtony in the record abott the frequency of

the rain If rain is it is the source is

rain something on this property that occurs

f if -y times a year I a hundred t iITes a year t

two ~ines a year

MS SHAME= YOur Honor the

2003 record I believe there was an exhibit

and I apologize that I canZt name the exhibit

number for you right now that idenifies what

a one year storm is f what a three year stOrIT

is~ and l-lha a five year storm is in that

county and I apologize that I cant come up

with the exhibit number for you right now

JUDGE SHEEHAN vlell whats your

recolecion about it irhat it says eve if we

dont know the exhibit right now 111 just

trying to get a bead on how -- whether its

typically dry or typically wet there With

rain

MS SHAI-fET Your Hono f I cant

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recall I believe its under a~ inch -- around

a~ inch bu~ ca~t say foy su~e I look at

a lot of these for a let opound dipoundfeent areas

and I don~t want to get one mixed up with the

other

JUDGE ~]OGAST vTose testimony

we6 you reerrlg to gtThen you were discusslg

seasonality

MS SHAMET That was testimony of

Mr Martin It is at Remand Transcript 1912

~~d Rema~d Transcript 354

JUDGE STEI f he Board we~e to

conclude tha the evidence in this case meets

the Kennedy est is it necessary for theI

Board to consider whether the evidence meets

the plurality test

18 8HAMET Its the posiio1 of

EPA hat satisfying either test will establish

geographic jurisdiction under the Clean Water

Act As the Board noted all courts that have

so held have held tha~ if one meets re

Kennedy Tests then t~ats satised Ir

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a~swer actually to one of your questions I

1think Judge Steir there is one case It S an

unreported case out of the District of Hawaii

that has held that the Kennedy Test is lircited

to isolated waters and hat Y0l otherwise

apply to Scalia Test and that is Sierra vs

COJ1ty of Honolulu 2008 us Distcict EX=S

64262 1 and we would just note that that case

is inconsistent with the governing circuit

lali ts tle 9h Circuit and we believe its

inconsistent with Headlesburg and Moses but

you did ask lthether there was any case that

discussed he Sca=--~a test and that is the

only one at least Im aware of To answer

your question we believe t11at satisfying the

Kennedy Iest wOll-~d be sufficient and it would

not be necessary to reach the Scalia Test i

however we do beLeve thas weve satisfied

boh in this case and that ei ther test will do

it All through

JUDGE SHEEHAN Can you poi~t us iL

the record to what may not be a gap but it

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looks like a bit of a gap at least from the

briefs There I s a lot of testimony -- a lot of

discussion in your brief about the history

the history on the site water on the site

for exa~pe a 1953 p~cto s~ows di~ch O~e had

water I a 1937 photo one two and four had

water 1920 f USGS map had five -- ditch five

had water And then so we leap from sixty f

seventy years ago to the present decade

oegirning in 1999 middotJ~el a buner of inspectio1B

occurred mainly in 99 I and there was some

hopscotching and then they e~ded in 2007 So

he~e --- at least from the bries treres a

fairly big gap between the very very historic

taps and photos I and then ~he 1999-on

inspections and That they showed What about

the intervening

HS SHlIiCET - believe tha~ we also

discussed the USGS maps in 1994 which were

the most recent maps prior to activity As

YOUY HO1ort s aware from the Boards decisio1

in Bricks its inCUInbent upon us to show what

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the wates Jere lLlte before the activity f not

after the activity

JUDGE SHEE~~ Right bue the

before here is well before Thats my

~estion I dont see much except for that 94

map

MS SHAMET 1Ind we also used

aeria photography from 1994 and 1995 to

suppla--nent rphere I S been nO evidence in the

record that anything changed between 1994 and

1995 and the acivity in question which

started in I believe December of 98 or

Jaluary cf 1999 Ane I believe responcerts

agreed on the western side of the site in

their expert reper that the configuration

has been co~sistent si~ce 1949 up until the

time of the activity If there are any further

quest iors I woud jus smnnarize again by

pointing out that the facts this case are

veoy very siltple Ttese are wetlands theyre

clearly docJmented as wetlands the

preponderance of the evidence established the~

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as wetlands The preponderance of evidence -shy

tle overwhelming preponderance of the evidence

established that Chese wetlands are

performing actual documented functions The

very significant nexlJS that Justice Kennedy

described in h~s opinion The evidence in this

case shows that these wetlands are physically

adjacent to tributaries These are ditches

they are rranmade bu~ wo~d ~ust note that

iJ Ra9a~os itself the ditches were manmade

and no justices voted about that They flow

waking dista1ce to tradi tionally r~avigable

waters and 7hey are jllrisdictional Thank

you

MS v-JILCHER May it please the

cOJgt IrJClnt to t~lank couJsel for -aising the

tabletop analogy necause I forgot to This is

at a divide It is twenty feet above sea

level It 8 a watersted divde lke he

cortinental divide such hat water is flowirg

away it is not at the bottom of anything It

is nQ a marsh it is EDt a bog it is Lot a

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swarrcp i1-is is ar~ area where there is no

abili ty for the fJetland to capture and keep

pollutants out of a Y1avigable water because it

lrsef is a the very head of the watershed

And so trying 0 -- f you Jere able to be

there and see that~ you woald understand that

its not got the same type of functions and

values as some area ad) aca1t to below I

cach1g f pYEvertng po=-l-ltion cori1g frou a

10 of upstream areas While thats not

parricularly significant

JUDGE SHEEHIlll Havent yo just

helped ma~e te argumelOt that with gravity

lorking as it 60es any discharge of a

po1hltant up high wotld have made its way dOlJID

low f to a navigable water

MS WILCHER Yes so this is not

a rrounanols area fh=-s is a very slight

slope 11 fact to the naked eye it s almostt

hard to see a slope

JUDGE SHEEHAN Why does flow

matter as significant ~exus goes

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HS VrJCHER We11 the amount of

rur~offf qJie fr-ankly r~at would occur can

matte w~th regacd to that I do want 0

address a few absolutely incorrect things that

were stated and a couple misconceptions Let

me start with the mischaracterization of the

axpert witnesses that were hired in 2007

There seems to be some attempt to imply that

hiri1g differe1t expert witnesses to deal with

wtether this is ju-iscicto1al under Rapanos

is the same as having expert witnesses to

testify whether or not this area met the

former -- the actual definition of a wetland

Theyre two different things You can have a

wetland and it ca1 still not be

jClrisd~ctional So itS our hope that the

Board doesnt misconstrue that to say that by

hiring different fgtxperts you were trying to

get a different result which was not the case

-- its simply that if youre looking at how

much flow what the funcions of values ar-e

its a very differert thing fran sorteone who

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caL go ou~ a~d do the soil samples to

determine whats hydric and whats not

Seco~d jus~ as with regard to the

credibility of the witnesses just as there

were some -- a case perhaps whee ac-I expert

witness misstated something or changed its

rnird 1 so did some of the government I s expert

wi tnesses misstate something that then had to

be co-ected So did the brief that said

that took the word and and changed it to

Or witr regard to what Justice Kennedy hadI

written So I dont think that that in and of

itself has any significarce wi th regard to the

credibility of a witness tihen we are talking

abcu lGVJ fa this land is from a navigable

water counsel has mentioned that it S 2600I I

feet middotrhich is about half a mile or 4200

feet which is close to a mile -- thats not

to reac-t a navigabe water Let us be clear

That is to reach something that is not

necessarily an intermittent area4 EPA

stipulated l the stipulations dated

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Septewer 8th 03 that the water body

depicted and ]i5 is nurrbers 37 and 38 that

the water bodies depicted as these drainage

ditches on the site are depicted by the USGS

topa rEap at the 3allary Hill (Phonetic)

quadrangle as a broken blue line and that a

broken bae line denotes an irtermi ttent

stream These are intermittent streams ard as

Justice Sheehan has correctly noted Judge

Scalia says n mary circ1JIstarces that

intermittent streams are not jurisdictional

waters of the U S HmAever if we tun to irlhat

Custice Kennedy says thats rhece we kind of

get into the eitheror what we also find

there is a great discussion by Justice Kennedy

loiClself on 1e Ccrps definition of a

tributary Counsel was referring to the

drainage ditches as t-ibutaries ard Justice

Kennedy makes it c~ear that the corps

definition of tributary that was in effect at

tr~e time this decision was -rritter middotJsing he

high watermark was not appropriate I and would

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lead in fact to too broad a definition of what

was jurisdictional i~ and of itsef under the

Clean Water Act And theres we dont have

time to read it all but Im sure youve

probably ead it more tirres t~an have

aryay iled also jtst lke to mention tha

qui te frankly the evidence that has been

introduced in this case is the type of

evidence the Cour was r~opng would not be

Csedo prove jurisdictior on such an

important issue and that is its speculative

Its not -- were not arguing that wetlands

arent irrportart J we arent arguing that

wetlands aralt valuabe anc you know in

1990 wed say regulate because we had the

legal authority to do so This again is one

of tlese cases t1at sirrply wishing that 1_e

Q C d h dfe I~upreree o~r~ naa sal some ~~g 1 ~eren~ y

does not make it so This is what the Court

said -- thats the final word on the mater

whatever we decide ~t is bu it S tre firai

word and we c~~t change that regardless ofl

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how mportant or ho wrong someone may think

that it auld be To other quick points to

mention and that is EPA knew about this work

that was going on in February of 1999 and

that is in Jeff Lapps testimony tn Volume 1

page 167 through 169 so EA did kno Most of

t~e woyk was completed by Aprii or May of that

year before EPA every CaIne out to the site

and it wasnt until 2000 chat a notice of

violation was issued

JUDGE SHEEHamp1 So why does that

matte- That is an enforcement choice EPA makes

every day of the week and its not part of

the record i~ has nothing to do with whether

or not the Kennedy or Scalia or any other test

was met It really doesnt seem to bear on the

legal issues here

11S vIILCHER Fair enough For

purpose of ~his arg~~e~tl for t~e pur~ose of

today youre probaDly right J-luge But i~

does matcer if were talking about typical

practice of EPA and while Im well aware that

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theres no requirement to take an enforcemer-t

action in a1ything less trar this period of

statute of limitations if in fact this was as

egregious and as violative and as problematic

as counsel appears to make it seem then EPA

did have every opportlli~ity to stOy that and

in ITany many cases vlhen EP1 sees a clear

violation of the law I they simply issues a

cease and desist order and in a case like

Rapanos in the Rapacos case you have people

who are going out anc taking action and

violating the wetlands law after theyve

received many state and federal cease and

desis orders so the facts of this case are

so di==ere~t from the facts of tha~ case Here

we have someone who was trying to comply with

the law as it was written at the time in my

view he was complying with the law as it was

wri ten at tlat time actG the fact tha EPA

didnt like ~he way the law was written and

what it said and what the courts were

deciding does not give hem authority to come

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in and regulate after the fact

JUDGE WOLGAST Counsel thank you

youre Olt of if you could make your

final point n just r~e next thirty secords J

I think you saie you had two I may be

mistaken

MS WILCHER Thank you Well we

are talkirg about jurisdictio1 I do think

tha tte overall =-ssJe of equity cotes i1to

play Ar~d knowing -- even krowing what the

jurisdiction was at the time of the activities

undertaken is really kind of an unc I Qar

matter Were still struggling with what

j Clrisdict iOI is Re9rettably toat s always

been t~e problem with this program

problem Igtli th this progral7l is that Corgress did

not give us clear direction and clear guidance

to either EPA or to the Boyds or to anyone

else in the regulative corrmlUnity and I t-hink

that s a factor certainly that the court Iblil

consider ard should corsder I when making a

decision on issues of liability and in this

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case we would ask that you do so Thank you

J1DGE voLGAST Thank YOJ Cours

thank yOJ for your arguUent and the case is

now submitted

MS DURR All rise Session of the

Environmenta Appeals Board nmv stands

adjourned

(Whereupon the above-entitled

matter was concluded at 11 16 am)

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON DC 20005-3701 wwwnealrgrossoom

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CERTIFICATE

This lS to certify tha~ ~he foregoi~g transcript

in the matter of Snith Farm 3nterprises ILC

Hon Anna Wolgast E-wironmenta Appeals Judge

Date Jaly 20 2010

Flace Washingson DC

represens the ful and complete proceedings of the

aforementio1cd marter as reported and reduced to

typewriting

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCR8ERS

1323 rOOE iSLAND AVE_ NW (202 234-4433 WASHtGON DC 20005-3701 fNWnnalrqft)6Scom

Page 10: BEFORE THE ENVIRONMENTAL APPEALS BOARD IN ... By...MS. DURR: Environmental Appeals Board of the U~ited States Environmental Protec~ion Agency is now in session for oral argument, in

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MS rLCHER rgthat f S rigrLt Thats

right But i s presumed trat the CO-clrt s

reasoni1g ar~d the four -- the opinion of the

four written by Scalia the opinion of

Roberts the opinion of Justice Kennedy all

rreant sameL-hing J and hat is what we are left

to vlork within and -shy

TUDGE SHEEHAN What do you think

cf the governme~ts argument trat either test

can apply as the First and Eighth Circuits

have held

MS WI~CHER well clearly a

nillnber of circuits have held that either test

Itould apply f ard in this case we we

believe that the evidence despicB what the

ALJs have found we believe the evidence

clea~ly shows that under neither test would

this area considered to be jurisdictional

~nder the curre~t interpretatio~ of the Clean

Water Act u~der Rapanos

And I really do think chat

not wanting to lose the forest for the trees

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRA1SCAIBER3

1323 RHODE jSlAND AVE NW (202) 2344433 WASHINGTON DC 20005-370~

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here the forest -- the big picture is thatI

Rapanos is a dramatic shift in the way

busir~ess as usual has been done aL these

agencies from 1972 ~ntil 2006 It is -shy

in 2001 you had a little deviation here but

its a ilge dfference and what we find in

the brief -- and what we find in the brief of

t1e govermnent in this case is lot much of a

differerce from how the law previously lttas

interpreted and Ill -- Ill just go ahead

aYld address thae ssae and that is that the

the strongest argument it appears that

he government nakes in its brief dealing

with the significant nexus test is that

wetlands are ~rrponart ~1etlards provide

valuable functions and even Rapanos case

notes that the Clean V~ater Ac has been very

important and serves an important public

interests and Section 404 and the wetla~ds

laws i-l particuar provide ar~ irportant public

interest

JUDGE SHE1 Vie11 i 81 c the

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governments argument that these wetlands I in

particua are important I and can you address

how these wetlands do or do not meet the

Kennedy significant nexus test

fiS WILCHER That woud be t1e

goverlli~ents argument but in this case they

have failed cO co inCroduce by a

preponderance of the evidence ~hat that is

the case

JUJGE WOLGAST Coud you describe

for us what you ~elieve the goverr~ent would

have to show at a minimum to meet Justine

Kernedys significant nexus test in this

context

MS ~iILCHER At a mini~um they

wotd have to show some measure of the effec

that would be had by this wetlands property

upor~ a navigable vater of the Uni ed States

and they have not done so ln ary regard

JUDGE SHEEHIN Wasnt there

abunda1t testimony says the gDve=runent by

expert i1itness Martin and others that there

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was such a C oILleci en YOJ f re speakirg very

theoretically Id like if you could to get

specific about what you think the failu~es are

i~ the governments case on the Kennedy test

MS ~VIrJCHER Yes but if you -shy

+_--ne if you look at the gover1TIleuroEt s

argument one of their lengthy arguments is

about the impact 0 denitrification that

VJetlands provide an important deni trification

iss~eJ pointing out that the Chesapeake Bay

tas too rruch nityogen and tbat its important

to keep that out They talk about the fact

that n~toger coues from atrrosphe-ic

deposition They talk about the fact that

microbes in the soil vi22 break hat rtroger

down and then they talk about that once the

nitrogen is broken dmvr it ll be taken up by

the breeze and i If~ay even be given off again

into -- into the air

JDGE STEIN ltJasn f t there

plentiful testimony by government witnesses

and the companys witnesses as to what was

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occurr~ng specifically at this site I mean

I think the challenge for the compa~y i~ this

appeal 8 that there were credibili ty findings

Chat tiere made by the ALJ as to some of the

testimony by respondents by the companys

wi tnesses and given the Board f 5 standard forJ

crecibility determinations where the 30ard

you knovl historically ove many mar~y years

gives great weight to an ALJ~s finding how is

it ha t we can ove look he ALJ S credibi lity

determinations in the face of countervai~ing

evidence ~hat the ALJ found ~o be credible

(S WILCHER Judge Stel if I

can finish Judge Sheehans question I III ge

right back 0 you on that You were wanting

some specifics and an example of what the

government tried to prove in its case By

go~ng through this whole denitrification

process they nake ~o distinction betwee~ the

value that ris particalar wetlald is making

or any paricular wetland is making I to the

denitrification 0 the Chesapeake Bay

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202) 2344433 WASHINGTON DC 20005middot3701 WWN11w1rgtOSsoom

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JUDGE SHEEHAN But the Kennedy

tea says that if wetlands aloLe or in

combination with other wetlands have that

kind of effect

115 WILCHER Wetlands alone or in

corrbinato1 with otrer wetlands or in

combination lith the uplands the arguments

~ha t tbey ace laking wOClld apply equally to

uplands and as the court noted in the Rapanos

decision applying some of these tests as the

government histori cally has applied them to

say that they are jurisdictional sirrply

because hey have value and may be somewhat

miles aay hut may have some connection or

some val~e ~i~es away being speculative in

nature does rot cause it to be

jurisdictional and it sa~d i~ so the en~ire

United States would be considered regulated

llilder tbe Clear~ ater Act

JUDGE SHEEHAN Theres ~~ theres

one and cot to get in the vay of Judge

Steins question but Qne of the exhibitsr

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Remand Exhibit 937 shows a very honeycombed

tissue through the Srith Farm weta1ds going

ou~ to the two rivers and then to the bay I~

looks sure _ surely to me it looks from this

exhibit and otes as if tl1e wetlands are very

proximate to and affect directly the waters

below Car you address that

KS WILCE2R I wil Those naps

do not show any actual measurable connection

nor do they show a contir1oJS surface

conE6ction r~avigable vrates

JUDGE SHEEHAN Why does it have to

be a surface connection tilly car_ t it be stbshy

surface if theres a hydrological link

MS WILCHER But theres ~o

showir~g of a silD-surface hydroogica liak

either Theres a total lack of evidence of

probative dence i~ th~s case to actualy

tie that paricu=-ar vletland Co a rcavigable

water which by the way you would have to gor

fcom tha wetland to a drair~age ditcr~ anc

went out there and traipsed down the site

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISlAND AVE 0W (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON DC 200JS3701 wwwnealrgrooscom

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before I came here to talk to you about this

but youd have to go fr~~ that -- b~t this ~s

all en the record -- YOlld have to go fron

that area that might be-- that part of it that

might be considered a we~land~ through

drainage di tches t1at are only inerrrit ert

in nature and t1e evidef~ce is clear that

theYre only intermittent in nature including

the USGS blue line dotted lines and then they

would have to go from tlere to Bailey Creek

non- navigable to Drurr Point Creek

non-navigable] then to tributaries of the

westeGl branch of the Elizabeth River I which

is t~e f rst tne you I d hi a ~avigable wate

If go in the opposite

direction they would have to go from drainage

ditches to Quake~ Neck Creek to ~eans Bra~ch

which are tributaries 0 tne ravigable water

the Nansemond River 14d so there there is

no proof that there is a connection

Things could lave been done Tne-e

cOmiddotJld have been dye raclgs there cOlld have

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1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202 234middot4433 WASHINGTON DC 20005-3701 wwwraargrossoom

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been a~l kinds of evidence hey could have

taken samples they could have done

quantitative analysis There is no chemical

evidence there is no physical evidence there

is no biological evidence that connecs this

to a navigable water f and therein lies the

problem

JJDGE TO~GAST Justa if I

could follow up on that before we get back to

cred~bility iss~es

MS HLCHER Okay

JUDGE WOLGAST Are you saying that

the fact they floTlI throJgh ditches is a

jurisdictional problem

MS 1tILCHER Not particularly

JUXE vIOLGASI And the1 get ~ ing

back to the testimony that Judge Sheehan was

referring to where JIdge Morar was referring

to the testimony of Mr Rhodes and Mr Martin

that the property provides flood storage flow

moderaion carbOIl sequestration vlater

purification denitrification what I want to

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TAANSCRHiERS

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undsystard aboJt your argument 1s are these

aspects insufficient or would they be

sufficient if in your mind there was more

evidence of the connection of these attributes

to the Nansemond or Elizabeth Rivers

MS iILCHER EPA -- the govenment

cant simply say that wetlands are valuable

because they are-- help prevent flooding and

not show that they would help prevent flooding

in this particular case and that it would

significantly help prevent flooding in t~is

partcular case lrJha ttey have done toe

Drie is to siIply lay down he well-knoJl

attributes a~d valuable functions and values

of wetlands and said therefore this is

having a significant effect on navigable

~ivers Theye is not a co~~ection they have

lot snoltm by a1y credible evidence cause and

effect of any sigrifcant iIEpact tpon thef

navigable rivers

JUDGE SHEEHAN But you make

again a very theoretical argument about the

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

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fact Chat the goverruuent just argues wetlands

fgelerally but werer t government wi tnesses

crawling allover this property mul iple

times testify~ng at great lengtl lots of

exhibits aerials historc maps and

everythi~g else to show in this case fo~ this

property there was trat link Its hard to

believe with all that 11Bssive Estimony and

getting to ~he credibility issue that he

governrrent doesn~t have a pretty solid case

rat hat nexus sat) sfyilg the Kennedy test

exists

MS WILCHER It is hard to

believe I totally agree It is hard to

believe Tle governmert has had unfettered

aCCess to this property for over a decade and

have failed 0 develop flmr drainage elements

they cant show how illuch flows off the site

they cant show vhat type of sediment runoff

might have occurred at ~he site ~hey ca~tt

show what type of water retention is teld Jy

the site t~ey have been unable to show any

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ecoogical cC1nection 1tith regard to wildlife

there was a Woodcock seen on the site There

is absolutely -- and its amazing to me hat

tr~ere is a void

JUDGE STEIN But isnt the test a

nexus a significant nexus not this

sJbstantial inpacts est that I hear wove]

through some of your statements and T dont

-- when I go back and I look at the Kennedy

opinion you knot] and some of he hings t1at

are cited I dont necessarily see that that

test requires the level of proof that youre

stggesing is reqJired ny hat test So

perhaps you could explain to me based on the

Kennedy opinion how you get from there to the

level of proof Lhat you re a5~ing for f just to

establish jurisdiction

MS WILCHER Certainly

JUDGE STEIN I mean I we re not

here to determire you know penalty or

anything else were here just to figure out

if youre even i~ tbe door

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MS IILCHER Yes understand

Ie 1 1 what Justice Kennedy said was to talk

abmlt he fJay the Corps nac typically

regulated wetlalds and then to say absent

more speciic regulations however the Corps

must establish a significant nexus on a case

by case bBSS wler it seeks to regulate

wetlands based on adjacency to non-navigable

tributaries and then it goes on to say given

the potential over breath of the Corps yen s

regulations this showing is necessary to

avoid unreasoDable applications of the

statute

The justice wrote I no~ just a

~exus if the COurt had only said there has to

be a nexus then o~e would have a different

burden of proof in this case the court said

a significant nexus and we have to assnne

that a significant nexus is meaningful that

those words mean SOIEethi1g So theres a -- at

least a two-step process One to show that

theres a nexus and the other is to show that

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its significant and that is what the record

is devoid 0 in this particular case

JUDGE SlEIN But its not a

significa1t impact its a significant nexus

MS iILCHER Thats right a

significant nexus And the sigrificart rexus

must -- and if YOu read through the rest of

the case it talks abolt hm -- that in order

to regulate land as water there must be some

type of impact on the water

JUDGE SHEEHAN Justice Kennedy

also uses a phrase that think is pertinent

here r he says that the how -- how the proof is

determined has to be done in a practical way

ard i almost sounds as if what you I re

requiing is that the governrrent set up flow

meers or pour a vial of discharge into a

ditch and see if it eventually ends up in the

Chesapeake or do something on a very

impractical scale to prove ~he connectio~

MS WILCHER You know this is a

really important issue The governrrent has to

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do sOIething oJer than to make allegations r

especially in a case where youpoundre dealing with

constitutional issues such as privae property

rights and how one car jse his own property

or hers and in this case I there are lots of

things tha~ EPA historically has done for

ypcal NPDES cases But when you before he

Board on a NPDES case theres at least some

measure If they had had pictures that there

las a plurne comir_g off of this wetlar~d if

theyd done any flow calculations if theyd

had any physical chemical biological

evidence of a nexJS and a signiican- nexus to

the navigable waters which again( are not the

ditches they are the ditches that flow to the

creek that flow 0 the creek that flow 0 the

navigable waters j then it would be a different

case but that is not what has happened in

this case

JUDGE IJOLGAST Well as you say

the goverIl1lent obviously has the burden of

proof i~ a~ eLfo~cerne~t case l but is this the

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same type of evidence that you thirk a

_a~Qowne~ should Lndertake I mean obviouslY

they have the burden to obtain a permit where

there is potential jurisdiction

I~S ~JILCaER Btt if the person

doesnt obtain a permit ~~ and the government

thinks that theyre i~ error again the

government always has the burden of proof

JUDGE vJOLGAST Right but J 1m

talking about getting a -- yOJ know starding

in the landowners shoes before weve ever

gotten to an enforceme1t case it -- it I

mean I ~h~nk theres some iSS48 with getting

back to the Supreme Court case that one of

he things that were concerned about - at

least lJustice Scalia pointed to was how much

evidence time money it takes to vJOrk

thro~gh ~h~s process and it sou~ds like the

yeLl know r the advocacy here is that there

should be more not less

)15 ~JLC1ER There stou1d be

something dore by the government in thi s

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regayd to actually prove a nexus and a

sgnificant nexus ard in this ease I canr

assuye you Judge Wolgast that the l~downer

has go~e above and beyond the oall of duty

going to the Corps time after ti~e having the

Corps ou to tr~e site and having spent talk

about the time and money and investmert having

his case as understand it having spent

over $800 000 in litiga~ion costs to try to

pr-otect what was legal at tl~e time that it was

aone and so -- so there is a burden

The governme1t has the burden aid

in this case in this par~icular case they

failed to meel it I don I t know why I haven [t

been involved that lor~g ~ would speculate

tl1at by the time he Rapanos case cane along

it V~as jlSt too hard to go back and find the

type of probative evidence that would carry

the cay_

I do not necessaily thirk that

its an impossible tas~ There have been ot~er

cases that ve reviewed aihere the goverrUent

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has irtroduced evidence of the poundows tr~e

amount of drainage that has occurred how much

water might be taken up by a wetland area$ but

none of that was done in thi s particular case

and again we can only speculated why that

was the case

JDDGE STIN How does tr_s S~xth

Circuit decision in the Cundl f f matter bear on

your view that the -- you need some sort of

laboratocy araysis to prove h~s7

MS ~VILCHER in that

particular easel you dont have as I ~ecall

the -- the disarce roIT a navigable waer

tha t we have here [ and I think the farther you

are away from a navigable water the harder it

is 0 prove tha~ theres any impact on that

navigable water and in this -- again in this

case they are far away from a navigable

water and I think toe reaSC1 tha~ we don

see the p=oof is because its not there itS

not developable and that is why it is not

Cere Did yOl wart De to ~~

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JUDGE STEIN I do wact you to get

the credibility question

MS bull WILCHER I dian t t want to

forget your - shy

JUDGE STEIN No while we we~e on

this topic why cor t t yOJ addres s the

credibility question

MS vILCHER I think its an

important question IC t S a real important

question and that is simply that s even though

the regtllatior~s do provide that typicaily when

the ALJ hears the witnesses and makes

determinations 0 ~~eir credib~~ity that

typically this Board will defer to that

However in this case a carefctl review of the

record shows that the ALJs just got it wrong

and it is within this Boards prerogative to

look at the -- look at t1e factors tha

that the ALJs used in making their

deterninatior and make a judgreJt aboJt

wl1ether those factors are sufficient

A couple of examples There was a

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mar who had Iived OT the farm for h~rty years

who testified that he I d walked over the farm

for thir~y years and testified that in fact

Ithe streams J or the drainage di tches were

intermittent in nature and did not carry water

I - 1 h d - a11 th e trre bull e __ t e JU ge ~n tHe QeClS10n

said well I think hes a nice man I think

hes beholden to the Smi ths f and he was just

Ollt or a wa so totally just discounted his

testimony saying he WBS just out on a walkJ

as if that meant t~at somebodywQuldnt no~ice

DGE ~vOGAST ~ Are yot saying

though that it would have to carry water all

tre time

MS vHLCHER No no But but

it f s clearly -- is Eot a navigable water lor

it is adjacent nor is the wetland adjacent to

a navigable water in this case It flows

anything t~at =lows opound= of t~at a~ea that has

been considered to be wetland by the

goverr-Uent flows -rxough drainage ditches

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that are only intermittent in nature and

~herefore are ~ot co~sidered to be navigable

watsYs clea~ly urder the Rapanos decison

JUDGE SHEEHAN But if the man

walking the land said that they were

intermittent and youre saying intermittent

doesnt matter

I~S IgtlILCHER Were saying that -shy

Judge Cha~eski as I recall said tha~ there

was a c01tinuOU5 flow of 5088 kind isnt that

-- d~~lt J~dge Char~eski say that

WOLGAST lrJell Justice

Scalia said that even after that -shy

HS WILCHER Right right

JUDGE WOLGASl That that

seasonal flow could establish jurisdiction

~nder the pluralitoes test

148 t-JILCEER BJt there s not beenj

seascnal flow established -=-n this case Yot

have somebody going out there en particular

days after these ditches have been dug which

we all know alter the flow in drainage after

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the eLi tches are dug ftJaer goes to the lowest

level and so theres going to be more water

draining OU= of there t~a~ ~here would have

been in 1998 and 1999 and that -- that is

clear ~tat ~tere is no ev~de~ce ac the time

this was done they were -- they were anything

but inerYlitten and here l s no j1risdictiola1

connection that they have proven to date

JUDGE ~JOLGAST And what do you

think they would have had to have shown to

show seasonal flow

MS ~IILCHER Well they could

have done something more than go out there

nine times over tbe course of a year rrhey

could have had aerial photographs taken Ihey

cod have -- weil first yOl have the uSGS -shy

you have the USGS maps as showing its

inteYrnittent and theres lierally no

testimony en the record right now to show that

theyre anything but interrrdtent Ot-her than

to say that if somebody goes out there ~ine

Cimes and looks at the flow and sees water

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then -- agair~1 keeping ir mind this was years

atel 1_8 dainage d=- tches tver-e dtg ha t were

channeling more water into the old one through

seven drainage areas there B nothing tof

establish what was the~e at ~he time in 1998

a~d 1999

JUDGE VlOLG~rST And I think

isnt this what courts are struggling with in

the sense that its -- its one thing to say

~ts ~~ter~itte~tf b~t is that good enough I

mean I dont you have to figure out just how

much flow in you know what period of time

or the idea that -- I dont -- if someoae

says t~at its intermitte~t Irr not sure that

means its ir~ or out without further evidence

MS WILCHER Right Well that

shows really the that shows arguably a

cQnYlecion Bu how rrlcr =ow is going through

there whether sediment loading is going

through there whether theres an ecological

connection through there all these whethers

lead to whether t~e~e is a sig~ificant nex~s

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to a navigable water and if you look at some

of the other cases ~here has been that kiLd of

information introduced and in this case there

is none

JUDGE vJOLG1ST hhat case are you

thinking of

MS vJILCiER I thirki1g maybe

t was the Precon case ir - - in the Eastern

District of Virginia Its on appeal in the

Fourth Circuit I may r~ve been ~hat BJt

I 11 be happy to provide some cases -- a case

or cases later on that show the type of

evidence that tas been introdJced because I

remember reading about them and cant think of

the name right now

TlDGE SHEEIiAN I Vant to go back

for a moment to Judge Stein J s question about

credibility

gtIS CLCHER YOS

JUDGE SHEEHAN So ALJ Moran sat

through days and days of testimony on the

bench a lot of pecple ~n ~~at witness chair

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Hes there hes on he scere hes

~nterpreting the way the witnesses speak and

their basic credibility which you can only do

face to face in that way Wha~ is it about

what happened there that causes you to think

theres sOne way or some reason for as not to

credit the typ~cal deferehce we would extend

There must be some exception here that we ~eed

0 know about for that to happen

MS WLCHER tAJel1 r ard there are

a few facts that I think would be relevant to

your consideration in that case In the first

instance some of these wi~nesses that the ALJ

deter~ined were not credible --Jere stipJlated

as being expert vtitnesses and hat shows at

least sorre level of credibility in the mind of

the government w th regaro to whetJ~er they

were experts in the field

Second some of the criticisms

in one case a criticism that an ALJ made of an

expert wi tness was that he had not beer~ 0 the

site often enocgh yet vith one of the

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gover~ors -~ goverG~entls expert witnesses

that person had been to the site less times

t1an t1e Srith Farms expert witress A1C SO

there is a confounding sense that in this

particular case for whatever reason if the

experts agreed ~ th r~e goverr_rne1t f they were

credible and that if they di~~t they were

not

It just seems highly unlikely that

every single witness iltroduced by Smith

Far~s and Ive had the pleasure of working

wi th Mr Boyd and it lS just I think

statistically urEkely that one could End

that many unmiddotmiddotmiddotcredible witnesses and in thisf

case I do not believe that they were not

credib2e I believe they were as credible ald

as I mentioned in some cases were stipulated

in beirg expert w~t~esses ~~

JUDGE SHEEHAN So you didnt

believe they were

HS WICHER I did not bel ieve

they were not credible so I believed that

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they were credible And -- and it is sOIEewhat

confoundirg other than to say that the

closest thing that I could figure out was that

if hey supported t~e governments viev tey

were credible and if they did not support the

governments Vlew I they were not

CJDGE trrOGAST But dien f t Judge

Moran find that -- and to generalize ---- that

the witnesses failed to establish that to the

exent t1ere were weta1ds they -lere isolated

by on-hydric soil lasnt that a central part

of his credibility determination

MS ~vILCHER Well trat S O1e of

the findings that Judge Moran made but in

this paricular case keep in mind its not

Smi Parms tha-c has 0 show that there is a

break or a barrier -- its the government who

has to show that the~e is a con~ection

JUDGE liOLGAST Of

understand Right

HS IIILCHER So theres cerainly

pockets of non-hyd~ic soil in tte area and

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for SOle reaSCl EPA _ ar~d again this is just

ki~d of amazing to me

spent this long on that EPA did not go out

there and do a typical delneaion of the

site and this is something that is cypically

done Its amazing that EPA did not issue a

cease and desist order as soon as t~ey ~~ew

abouc it There are many things that to me

are amazing about this case that quite

frarky I are he easor that I came nere to

argue it Because lIm a strong believer in

protecting the Clean Water Act and in

protec~ing lteta-ds and you mayor may lOot

know from my history I I bear a lot of scars

from having trIown myself in the body of

wetlands protection bac~ in the days ana I

still believe its an important thing to do

But I also believe its important to follow

~~e rule of law and ~n chis case Mr Boyd

made every effort to follow the rule of law

and I bel ieve he did and when it did not work

out tte way that EPA wanted the law to be

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this enforcement action came forward at a

time -- and had they intervened early on i~

t~is case they cou~d have stopped They knew

months before the work was cOITpleted -- hey

knew months before the work was completed that

there was ditching and draining going on

t~ere and trey did no move in quickly to try

to resolve that case ar~d they could have -shy

they could have stopped most of the so called

harm that they are now alleging but chose not

to do so ~~ey dd ~ot do a deineaLion they

did not inroduce proof that this particular

part of property has a significant nexus to

jurisdictional waters of the United States to

a navigable water of the United States I and

thats the reason I~ he~e

JJDGE VJOLGASI I see your time is

expired if theres no other questions

MS WILCHER Thank you

MS S~J~ET~ Good morning You=

Honors My name is Stefania Shaliat and I

represent Region III in this matter

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specifically the complainants who are the

division directors for the Environmental

Assessment a1d Irr~ovation Divisio1 and he

vater Protection Division I at EPA Regio11 III

With me at counsel table Id like to

i~troduce DO1la Carner-Tal f who is regulatory

co-msel for the Nc-folk District Army Corps of

Engineers and Karen ~lendelowskl gt who is with

the office of general cour~sel and also we

have a disirglshed g1e8 1$ d lke to

introd~ce -- si~~ing behind me is Dr Dennis

Whigham with the Smithsonian Environmental

Resea=cr Cente- Your Honors responders have

do~e ~~ if I ca~ get in a couple points -- a

good job of obfuscating what are really very I

very simple facts here The simple facts are

hat these are tllelands perfouuiq docurrenced

functions that are delivered to tributaries

These wetlands are adj acent physically

trose trib-ltaries f ard those

tr lbtacies flow to traditiorally navigable

waters to the West 2600 feet away to the

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East 4200 feet away In other words the are

wetlands adjacent to tributaries that low

waki1g clstance to tr-adi ional1y navigable

waters These Vetlfu1ds were jurisdictional

under SWANCC as respondent conceded in Clean

~later Act Appeal mmber 05-05 when respondent

reseved argll1snt on jtrisdicto1 but chose

not to raise it un~il there was a change in

case law They continue to be jurisdictional

under any standard enunciated by he Supreme

Court in Rap~~os The qJan~u~ of proof offeree

by the complaina1ts i1 this matter not only

exceeds preponderance of the evidence it

exceeds any quantum of proof required by

Rapanos In fact t far exceeds it Another

thirg that is obscured in the ar9J11ent here by

the respondents is that up until 2007

respondents had a different set of expert

witnesses It las tlose expert witresses that

coroplainalts stipulated 1heir expertise was

in wetlands identification and the connection

of wetlands to waters of the uniced States

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Ihose witnesses largely agee with

complainac1t I s version of the facts on the

ground ae-d i wasnt until 2007 when

respondents hired a new set of expert

witnesses that any real dispute arose about

what exactly was going on in the site There

was dispute about ithat hat nean f but not

exacly what the physical characteristics of

t21e si te ere

J1DGE WOLGAST Counsel coud you

address Ms wilchers points that while there

may be flow moderation carbon sequestration

there may be some evidence that the government

hasnt shmlTI a nexus between those

characterist~cs and the ~avigable waters

vIS SHAME Sure First of alI

the evi6erce of Je fuYlctions beirg performed

on this S1 te is not speculative There are

photo after photo and testimony after

testimony the governments evidence is based

or established scientific literature that

identifies something called field indicators

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-- physical characteristcs on the ground -shy

that when identified correlate to a specific

functi~n being formed by the wetland In this

case there are three Tr~e first was fow

noderaiou and one of the physical

characteristics thez-e would be such things as

ponding you see a lot of later being

captured in low levels depressional levels

withir the wetland Tle record conta1s dozens

of photos of that The secord is

denitrification and that is the microbes

llptaking nitrogen in the soil That indicator

is something called modelirg i1 he soil It sI

a red spotch Essentially it IEeans that iron

is there That evidence comes not only from

the complainants but if one were to reviel

the soi 18 expert froIT respordent Dr Parkers

O~ I-fr arlter f s firs expe~t repo-t ir

20C3 he describes modeling in his sails The

third is primary production That is the1

contribution of a food source Taking

transforming organics that a2e in the _- in

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nature into a food source in water that then

tralsports that food source dowYlsream to

higher trophic organisms The best evidence of

that actually comes from one of respondents

experts Dr Cahoot 1110 photographed it

leaving the site I cant find the photo at

the marneYlt f blt I 11 describe what he says

Foaing a he confluence of the ditch

leaving the property with ditches along the

property boundary near the railroad This foam

vias also sampled and examined microscopically

--- it contained primary plant debris some

peller ald rllnero-lS sma oil droplets These

oil droplets in my opinion were probably

plant oils derived froI decomposition of the

organic matter in this area That description

correlates perfectly with the description in

the testimony in tZ1e remand hearng about what

primary production s the transport of

particulate and dissolved organics downstream

as a food sOJce So the -Jse 0 the -- t~1e

functions this case are not speculative

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theyre clearly being per-formed theyre

clearly being cocC1ented as beir~g perforrred on

this wetland Theres also evidence of the

hydrologic connection between this wetland

the ibuaries and the downst-eam

trad~tionally r~avigable waers Again that

comes both frOIE complainant ~ s experts as well

as some of respondents experts one of

respondent I s experts described tr_at hydrologic

co~nectio3 as such He descrbed the wetland

as a table tcp on which somebody pours water

the water comes off of that table top into

the ditches and then tansports down to the

taditional1y navigable waers The sane

expert lgtIr Wolf also agreed that the

wetlands on the site were in fact

hydrologically conYlected to the di tches wr~ich

forrr tributaries and lJlere n fact adjacs1t to

them So we also have fUTIction ard we have

transport Now with respect to Ms Wilchers

corrment -shy

JUJGE WOLGAS~ is YoDr

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posi tion on the type of evidence that you

need to show nexus of

characteristics you see on site to the

navigable waters

gt1S SHAtvET My positio1 is tha we

met it exactly and I would refer you to

Justice Kennedys opinion Justice Kenledy

ide~tified the type of functions that he would

consider to form a significant nexus

traditional navigable waters and those are

p~ecisely the functions that were identified

on this site Specifically Justice Ker-nedy

refers to slowirg COt-C of surface runoff r

filtration and purification -- that would be

in on 547 US 773 to 75 He sta~es with respect

to weta1ds f the rationale for the Cleal ~fater

Act regulation is as the Corps as recognized

that vetlands can perforrl cri tica2 functioES

re2-ated to the integrity of other waters

functions such as pollutant trapping -- in

other words l denirifcatior~ -- flood control

flow moderation and ruriOff storage

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Ther-efore the types of functions that we

docrraented as beng performed or this site are

precisely the ypes of unctiors tha Jusice

Ken1edy ide1tified J in his opinion as the

type of functions that form a significant

nexus

JUDGE SHEEHAN In in your

brief on page 46 you say that the Kennedy

Test requiEs weta1ds cont-ibutions to the

physical c1emical or biologic in-egrity of

doOrIlstream waters -- is it nor or Hand Your

brief says or

MS SHAMET The brief says II or -shy

JUDGE SHEEHAN Because if it can

De just one of those -shy

SHA4ET I believe Justice

Kennedy did use and however it is c2ear

that he does not require a function to

contribute to all ~hree factors and chats

clear from the function he identifies

JUDGE SHEEHAN Then why did he say

and

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MS SHAMET I think he said and II

but he had a comraa and a1d he was -eferring

to a list of examples rather than a standard

i1ith respect to Ms Wilchers cormnent that we

dont have any photographs of pltLnes as I

indicatedf one were to trt 0 R Ex 28 f

which llnfortunatey I can f find right now I

ltlhich is Respondent 1 s Exhibit 28 from the

first hearing in 2003 Dr Cahoon provides a

picture of that plume himself I would also

point out that with respect to

denitriication one wouldnt expect to see a

pInrr -- thats the exact point its to hold

Che nitrogen on the wetland -lot send it

downstream

JUDGE STEIN How is the Rapanos

significant nexus test d_fferent if at all

=rom the nexus i~ Rivervew Rverside

Bayview

MS SHAMEl Riverside Bayvie

assumed a nexus based upon adjacencYi in this

case lJustice Kennedy has asked that we

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actually go forward and establish that the

nexus exists rather than simply assuming itI

based On adjacency

JUDGE SHEEHamp~ on page 41 of your

brief you quote some of the tesciroo1Y of the

first ALJ hearing I which sounds a lit~le more

entative to me tha1 youre souidir_g today

about the substa1tial nexus test being met

The brief~ at page 41 reads that these

wetlands are more likely to perform

denitrification more likely to allow for

suspended settlements -- sediments to settle

out~ more likely to support a different suite

of wildlife species that to me is

lar-guage ~rats ~ot qui~e as powerful as

saying there is a substantial nexus met here

that just sounds -- can yo~ address what seems

to be more diffident language in your brief

than what youre articulating today

MS SHAMET Well as Your Honor

pointed out T the language that you pointed to

in the brief is from the 2003 hearing before

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tr~e Rapanos case As the Board is avlare J he

EPP~ agreed and argued that the evidence to

satisfy Rapanos had not been fl11y developed

as of 2003 and this precisely why we

requested a remand

JUDGE SHEEHAN But youre cit i ng

it here filed long after Rapanos as if its

still your position

MS SHAME~ I cited a lot of other

evidence as lJell Your Honor incLuding the

testimory of Mr Rhodes he testi~cny of Dr

~fhigham and the testimony the f1Tther

estimony of Hr Mart So while that is a

piece of evidence it is certainly not the

only evidence cited in our brief

JUDGE WOLGAS~ ~o go back to the

point you were making earlier about how the -shy

in essence the three-part test is the same

type of evidence yo~ would look to to

establish sign~ficant nexus ard Justice

Kernedy did seer to speak to hat saying much

the sarre evidence I referring to tre Corps ssect

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delineation manual type evidence should

P8nnit the establishment of a significant

nexus witr navigable wates

particularly if supplemented by further

ev~dence abou~ the significance of the

tributaries to which the wetlands are

cO11ected How does the gove-nment interpret

the latter part of that quote

MS SILllltlECmiddot I think that the

government needs to show and has shown in

this case that there is an ability of those

trihttayies Co conect the wetlands to a

traditionally navigable water in such a way

that the poundtnctions are delivered In this case

we have certainly shown the hydrologic

cO1nect=-o1 some of respondents expe-ts have

agreed with us that that connection exists and

tha there is sufic8Ylt ~hat there is

water exchange there and weve also shown

that heres proxirrity here again these are

walking distance to traditionally navigable

waters this is not the Rapanos case where it

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traveled 32 miles So we think we have met

that burden here by sho~Jing the hydrologic

connection and showing that these tributaries

are capable of delivering the function With

respect to cr-edibi=-ity and he points that

Your HOlors asked of AS Wilcher I would just

point out tha~ lTudge lvlorans credibility

determination was based on demeanor and also

on the facts of this case An important fact

to note for insta11ce is in the firstF

r~earing in 2003 respondent I s soils exper

who laid a g=id fOJnc 53 ou 55 sarnples

hydric The only two that were non-hydric had

JUDGE STEIN I couldnt hear you

MS SHApoundT Had 53 Oelt of 55 soil

sa~ples he identified as hydric in the site

soEs or ei ther side In the secord heaocilg

Dr Pierce testified that there was

essentially non-hydric soils everywhere And

on cross-examination he was asked didn t youI

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find any hydric soils and he said oc yeah

I found them I just didnt click on my GS

locator and ider~tify where they were and I

just didn It report them He only reported the

non-hydric soEs That is the kind of thing

that happened that caused Jtdge l-loran 0 find

a lack of c-edibility vvlth respect to 9r

Straw Dr Straws expert report disc1ssed

undulations in the landscape that he

interpreted to mean ere were no wetlands

tlere On the sand he conceded trat there

were no u1dulaions on tr~e landscape -- he had

mis~nterpreted the aeria= photo More

importantly he conceded ~hat he knew about

ha t erroy before the hearing and leverf

corrected it until cross-exa~ination Judge

Moran had ample basis for finding no

credibility on those witnesses

JUDGE SEIN Is it your view tha~

the Board has no authority to overrale an

ALJs credibility determination

MS SHAl-1ET No YOJr Honor the

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Board reviews he case de novo lffuile the

Board certainly defer to the ALJ r s credibili ty

determination what I run saying that in this

case t~ere is no basis for overturn~~g it

JUDGE STEIl If we were to

overturn it -- a credibility determination

what kinds of factors r it your view s1ould 18

be taking into aCCo4nt

MS S~~~ET I would think you

oelld be looking to see whether or not the ALJ

has a rational basis oh gosh I hate to use

legal standards like that -- but some sort of

bass or hich he based his credibiliy

deerrtination that he explained why there was

a lack of credibility and I think in this

case he did so amply

JUDGE SHEEHAJ If Ms v~i 1 cher S

correct characterizing the way testimony

cedibclity went i soanced almost like a

hundred percent credit to government

witnesses and practically zero to

respondens witnesses f tratg acctrate

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jus stipulat-=-ng 0 trat assumption - - if

t~atfs accu~ate would that be a basis fer not

allcwing deerence to Jdge Morans

credibility determinations if its so

lopsided

ocs SH_~ET In this case I would

say no just simply because in this case we

have a classic battle of the experts I but

oddly enough the ba~~ling experts are al on

respondents side And )hat we have are

experts whD ~estif~ed in 2007 who flat

disagreed wit the testimony of respordent S

experts in 2003 without any atterrpt by the

2007 experts or respondents to reconcie

that testiITony Given that circumstance it sf

not surp-isirg that the experts in 2007 s

testimony were given very litte weight One

of the things that Hs ltJilcher referred 0 was

unfettered access to the site If anyone had

u~fettered access to the site~ it was

respondent and yet there are no photos in the

record showing the streaL~S leaving the site

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dry except during a drought

JUDGE VOLGAST But her point was

tha t the goverrunert ~as the bmiddoturden here

MS SHlHEI And the burden -- he

government has met the burden In fact in

this case the preponderance 0 the evidence

literally the only evidence other than

testirrony by the site owner testimony by

someone who walks around a three-hu1dred-acre

site hunting and looki1g for damage in che

fieds which lS what he estified he was

doing there and photographs taken during a

d--ought he oV9rtlhe=Iilg evidence is that the

waters do flow on a regular basis First of

all these waers have been napped the

waters leaving the site -- as flovving water by

USGS for hal f a century

JUDGE vIOLGAST Yo mentioned that

the waters flow on a regular basis Is that a

conir~uols bas~s

MS SHAMET We would say it would

be part of every year Your Honor

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JUDGE SHEEHAJ Tlen W1Y 18 that

necessarily continual The Scalia Test now

that veve 901e to continual flow is jilst

that -- there has to be continual flow He

says even the least significant of the lake

river ocealS or streams the four water

bodies the least significant steams has to

have COlticua you

repeatedly say - make other instances that

are to me a lot less cor~fdent t1~an what

Scalia seems to deilland You say page 31 the

drains flow at least part of every yeari page

35 at least SOme portion of every year at

least at least at least it comes up

repeated-ly in YOlr brief vlhich couid be just

one rain event So theres one rain at least

it flows one or two days after the rain aod

thats certainly a far cry I would argue

from continual So can you address the seeming

gap between your statemen~s and what Scalia

seems to demand as far as continual flow

~S SHk1ET Ie would state that

Your

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Justice Sca~ia described re1ativey permanent

wateYs He made pretty clear wrat teose were

He did~t require any specific n~~er of days

of flow -- what he did say was common sense

and common usage distinguished between a wash

and a seasoral river and tha f s in foot1ote

five respondent likes to use the term

intermitten~ a lot but the one thing it is

clear from footnote 5 is that Justice Scalia

does not give the term intermittent any

ocegulatoY import trJhy Because he

specifically decli~ed ~o define it

JUDGE SHEEHAN Why doesnt he give

it regulatory import when at least seven

tirres by ely count in his opinion he says

iEtermi tent waters do not cca11 fy as

jurisdictional -- he even calls it an oxymQron

ac one point

~S SHAMET Even though he does

not -- he declines ~o defihe it He says that

thee are defiritions 0 nterrnttent bu he

sees 10 reason to identify what tlose are

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here I and then he specifically says I We have

no occasion in this litigation to decide

exacty whe1 he cryirg up of a streambed is

continuous and frequent enough to disqualify

tle channel as a water 0 the Cnited States

~jUDGE SHEEI-IAN I know we can t -shy

aobody knows what intermitter~t meaJs with

aOsol~te rigor thas obviously subject to

interpretation But the fact is he

contlnmiddotually rejects intermitten~ waters

whatever that Ireans as jurisdictional a1d

you say intermittent doesnt matter I dont

know how yot can say lat in the face cf al

his statements that intermittent does w~tter

HS SHAMET I think the evidence

dernorstrates pretty clearly that ther-e is

regular flow on a regular basis in these

wateTs A good exaTIple

JUDGE SHEEH1ll~ Im not talking

about the eviderce 1lT talking about the

standard

MS SHAIjET The standard lS that

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there has to be a relatvely pe-mar_ent tvater

It cant be a wash it cant be someLhing that

flows only occasionally only in response co

a very strong rainfall i~ cant be a gutter

It has to be a geographic feature ~~d in this

case we have USGS mapping these as geographic

features conainng Vlaer for over ffty

years which if thatis not relatively

permanent I In not qui te sure what would be

JUDGE SHEEHAN C-ne1 how else - shy

why else -- why is it that you cannot muster

more behind your argument that these are

lowing dyains tha1 just saying at least part

of the year continually You never say its

continual you never say its relatively

permanert ane not interrrittert you seem to

stay away from saying that and it seems

purposeful because it happens so frequently

1 S SHAHET ~J e dont

over~exaggerate our evidence we say what it

is And in this case what we r re saying is Ie

agree hsse styeams dry up for part of ~he

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year VJe f ve never argued that these were

perennial streams because theyre not They

are streams that only flow for part of the

year But part of the year is good enough

1nder Jtstice Scalia f s test These are rot

washes theyre ~ot t ckles When they flow

t1ey flow As Jlldge Mo-an pointed out I the

record is replete wi th photos of these streams

flowing and floling wi th a good arnount ofI

water them Now for exanpJe -shy

JUDGE SHEEHlll Flowing at least

part of the year right

MS SHAME~ Flowirg at least part

of the year If I could get the photo up An

example is ~his series of photos~ if we can

get it up If not Ill jus give tre exhibit

numbers Not a perfect picture This photo was

taken in December 2006 As you can see

theres visible flow in the stream A1d this

is Complainants Exhibit 328 co~plai~ants

Ex-hibit 308 - sarre sreart same location you

can tell by the cross January 07 J still

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lt- Low~ng

JUDGE SHEElI1N ~Iha t does tha t

realy prove YOJ cOl-=d go out right after a

rain as apparently happenedi apparently Dr

Whigham went out afte rain irw 07 ard Judge

Moran noted that he was out two days after a

big rain so naturally the drains were full

DJ showing us occasiQral ~-

IS SHAlyenjET If you can show four

sraight lonths of floN f think youre

probaby doing pretty good This is O1e of

respondent I S exhibits This is Dr Straws

photo ta~er_ in February 2007 This s

Respondents Exhibit 57pp

JUDGE VJOLGASI I (IT sory 1 whose

testimony was ~his

MS SHAMET Dr Straws The other

~h~ng that is documeGted -- Im just going to

go ahead and give you April April 2007 still

flow This is Complainants Exhibit 391 and

just ia case were llorried about March e

dont have March 2007 we have March 2003

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JIDGE SHEEHAN What drain is that

MS SHAMET This is Complainants

Exhibit 102L

JUDGE SHEEHAN What drain

MS SHAMET This is the portion of

drait six- seven as it leaves the si-se

crosses unde~~ea~h the railroad tracks to che

west and leaves the site We would also noce

chat in che 2003 hearing it was established

ard Judge ChaYlJeski acc6ped ordinary hig

watermark for the duration of the streams

leaving the site from the time they leave the

site cntil the time they wa~king distance

away hit traditionally navigable waters Now

whIle Justice Scalia said that existence of an

ordinary high waternark in and of itself does

not estabJish jurisdicion it does remair a

fact on the ground that shows the preseTlce of

f~c~J O-1r b~ief did cite in a footnote a

number of cases that describe what an ordinary

high water mark means and what it basically

means is that theres water there on enoJgh

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of a regular basis that theres no

vegetation and Dr Straw in poirtig at that

photo 57pp poined out that there was an

ordinary high watermark there e believe that

we 1ave s~ovm t2lougt t~1at eviderce as well is

that theres a regularity of flow through

these water bodies tJi th respect to Ms

~iilcher f s suprise that EA did not issue a

cease and desist order we in fact did we

issued an admif~istrative order n 2000 I

doat have the record citatio~ with me bu~ I

believe it was testified to in the 2003

tearilg In addi tion tlith respec 0 YIs

Wilchers conunent that EPA knew about the

operation before it was completed and didnt

intervere ~rat is also not correct In Culy

of 1999 EPA contacted respondent and

requested a site visit A- that time the work

was not done l6 site visit was scheduled in

-- they did the scheduling In July and the

visit was schedJled in September and in

August respor~dent brought equipment to the

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site and finished it up to present EPA with a

fai t accompli Couple other points There I s

bee~ a ~w~er of debates i~ t~e b~ie= about

briefs about whether or not there are in

fact wetlands on the sice and whether or not

they extend all the way to the tributaries

First of all ~othi~g in Rapanos altered the

EEe~gy and Water Developmert Appropriations

Act of 1993 Public Law 102377 106 Statutory

at Large 1315 in which Congress directed the

Corps of Eng~leers to use t~e 1987 wetlands

delineation nanual until a replacement manual

was established the courts have

recognized deference to the Corpss 1987

manual as the agencys interpretation of its

OvT regulatiors That manual was applied in

this case That manual when applied in this

case identifies wetlands throughout the site

JUDGE SHEEHAN A~e these -- are

these wetlands these draircs are tl_ey fed by

a1Y other source than rain

MS SHAMET No Your Honor These

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wetlands are what are called the top of the

watershed and this is why water flows in two

directions off of this site -- it flows both

west and east because its at the top of the

watershed

JUDGE SHEEHAN So any water on the

site its all rain-fed

MS SHAMET Yes The seasonality

of it however I can be established through

testimony regarding how the plants on this

site interact with that precipitation And

that testimony discusses the relationship

between whats called leap out and

transpiration In other words when the leaves

are on the trees the trees are uptaking water

from the ground -- from the groundwater table

and the groundwater table decreases and

thats why you see lower levels of water in

the summer During the winter when the leaves

are off the trees the trees are not

transpiring yet -- the water table rises and

thats why these are seasonally flowing

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s~reams and seasoca~ systems

JUDGE SHEEHAN Is there any

testirtony in the record abott the frequency of

the rain If rain is it is the source is

rain something on this property that occurs

f if -y times a year I a hundred t iITes a year t

two ~ines a year

MS SHAME= YOur Honor the

2003 record I believe there was an exhibit

and I apologize that I canZt name the exhibit

number for you right now that idenifies what

a one year storm is f what a three year stOrIT

is~ and l-lha a five year storm is in that

county and I apologize that I cant come up

with the exhibit number for you right now

JUDGE SHEEHAN vlell whats your

recolecion about it irhat it says eve if we

dont know the exhibit right now 111 just

trying to get a bead on how -- whether its

typically dry or typically wet there With

rain

MS SHAI-fET Your Hono f I cant

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recall I believe its under a~ inch -- around

a~ inch bu~ ca~t say foy su~e I look at

a lot of these for a let opound dipoundfeent areas

and I don~t want to get one mixed up with the

other

JUDGE ~]OGAST vTose testimony

we6 you reerrlg to gtThen you were discusslg

seasonality

MS SHAMET That was testimony of

Mr Martin It is at Remand Transcript 1912

~~d Rema~d Transcript 354

JUDGE STEI f he Board we~e to

conclude tha the evidence in this case meets

the Kennedy est is it necessary for theI

Board to consider whether the evidence meets

the plurality test

18 8HAMET Its the posiio1 of

EPA hat satisfying either test will establish

geographic jurisdiction under the Clean Water

Act As the Board noted all courts that have

so held have held tha~ if one meets re

Kennedy Tests then t~ats satised Ir

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a~swer actually to one of your questions I

1think Judge Steir there is one case It S an

unreported case out of the District of Hawaii

that has held that the Kennedy Test is lircited

to isolated waters and hat Y0l otherwise

apply to Scalia Test and that is Sierra vs

COJ1ty of Honolulu 2008 us Distcict EX=S

64262 1 and we would just note that that case

is inconsistent with the governing circuit

lali ts tle 9h Circuit and we believe its

inconsistent with Headlesburg and Moses but

you did ask lthether there was any case that

discussed he Sca=--~a test and that is the

only one at least Im aware of To answer

your question we believe t11at satisfying the

Kennedy Iest wOll-~d be sufficient and it would

not be necessary to reach the Scalia Test i

however we do beLeve thas weve satisfied

boh in this case and that ei ther test will do

it All through

JUDGE SHEEHAN Can you poi~t us iL

the record to what may not be a gap but it

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looks like a bit of a gap at least from the

briefs There I s a lot of testimony -- a lot of

discussion in your brief about the history

the history on the site water on the site

for exa~pe a 1953 p~cto s~ows di~ch O~e had

water I a 1937 photo one two and four had

water 1920 f USGS map had five -- ditch five

had water And then so we leap from sixty f

seventy years ago to the present decade

oegirning in 1999 middotJ~el a buner of inspectio1B

occurred mainly in 99 I and there was some

hopscotching and then they e~ded in 2007 So

he~e --- at least from the bries treres a

fairly big gap between the very very historic

taps and photos I and then ~he 1999-on

inspections and That they showed What about

the intervening

HS SHlIiCET - believe tha~ we also

discussed the USGS maps in 1994 which were

the most recent maps prior to activity As

YOUY HO1ort s aware from the Boards decisio1

in Bricks its inCUInbent upon us to show what

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the wates Jere lLlte before the activity f not

after the activity

JUDGE SHEE~~ Right bue the

before here is well before Thats my

~estion I dont see much except for that 94

map

MS SHAMET 1Ind we also used

aeria photography from 1994 and 1995 to

suppla--nent rphere I S been nO evidence in the

record that anything changed between 1994 and

1995 and the acivity in question which

started in I believe December of 98 or

Jaluary cf 1999 Ane I believe responcerts

agreed on the western side of the site in

their expert reper that the configuration

has been co~sistent si~ce 1949 up until the

time of the activity If there are any further

quest iors I woud jus smnnarize again by

pointing out that the facts this case are

veoy very siltple Ttese are wetlands theyre

clearly docJmented as wetlands the

preponderance of the evidence established the~

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as wetlands The preponderance of evidence -shy

tle overwhelming preponderance of the evidence

established that Chese wetlands are

performing actual documented functions The

very significant nexlJS that Justice Kennedy

described in h~s opinion The evidence in this

case shows that these wetlands are physically

adjacent to tributaries These are ditches

they are rranmade bu~ wo~d ~ust note that

iJ Ra9a~os itself the ditches were manmade

and no justices voted about that They flow

waking dista1ce to tradi tionally r~avigable

waters and 7hey are jllrisdictional Thank

you

MS v-JILCHER May it please the

cOJgt IrJClnt to t~lank couJsel for -aising the

tabletop analogy necause I forgot to This is

at a divide It is twenty feet above sea

level It 8 a watersted divde lke he

cortinental divide such hat water is flowirg

away it is not at the bottom of anything It

is nQ a marsh it is EDt a bog it is Lot a

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swarrcp i1-is is ar~ area where there is no

abili ty for the fJetland to capture and keep

pollutants out of a Y1avigable water because it

lrsef is a the very head of the watershed

And so trying 0 -- f you Jere able to be

there and see that~ you woald understand that

its not got the same type of functions and

values as some area ad) aca1t to below I

cach1g f pYEvertng po=-l-ltion cori1g frou a

10 of upstream areas While thats not

parricularly significant

JUDGE SHEEHIlll Havent yo just

helped ma~e te argumelOt that with gravity

lorking as it 60es any discharge of a

po1hltant up high wotld have made its way dOlJID

low f to a navigable water

MS WILCHER Yes so this is not

a rrounanols area fh=-s is a very slight

slope 11 fact to the naked eye it s almostt

hard to see a slope

JUDGE SHEEHAN Why does flow

matter as significant ~exus goes

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HS VrJCHER We11 the amount of

rur~offf qJie fr-ankly r~at would occur can

matte w~th regacd to that I do want 0

address a few absolutely incorrect things that

were stated and a couple misconceptions Let

me start with the mischaracterization of the

axpert witnesses that were hired in 2007

There seems to be some attempt to imply that

hiri1g differe1t expert witnesses to deal with

wtether this is ju-iscicto1al under Rapanos

is the same as having expert witnesses to

testify whether or not this area met the

former -- the actual definition of a wetland

Theyre two different things You can have a

wetland and it ca1 still not be

jClrisd~ctional So itS our hope that the

Board doesnt misconstrue that to say that by

hiring different fgtxperts you were trying to

get a different result which was not the case

-- its simply that if youre looking at how

much flow what the funcions of values ar-e

its a very differert thing fran sorteone who

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caL go ou~ a~d do the soil samples to

determine whats hydric and whats not

Seco~d jus~ as with regard to the

credibility of the witnesses just as there

were some -- a case perhaps whee ac-I expert

witness misstated something or changed its

rnird 1 so did some of the government I s expert

wi tnesses misstate something that then had to

be co-ected So did the brief that said

that took the word and and changed it to

Or witr regard to what Justice Kennedy hadI

written So I dont think that that in and of

itself has any significarce wi th regard to the

credibility of a witness tihen we are talking

abcu lGVJ fa this land is from a navigable

water counsel has mentioned that it S 2600I I

feet middotrhich is about half a mile or 4200

feet which is close to a mile -- thats not

to reac-t a navigabe water Let us be clear

That is to reach something that is not

necessarily an intermittent area4 EPA

stipulated l the stipulations dated

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Septewer 8th 03 that the water body

depicted and ]i5 is nurrbers 37 and 38 that

the water bodies depicted as these drainage

ditches on the site are depicted by the USGS

topa rEap at the 3allary Hill (Phonetic)

quadrangle as a broken blue line and that a

broken bae line denotes an irtermi ttent

stream These are intermittent streams ard as

Justice Sheehan has correctly noted Judge

Scalia says n mary circ1JIstarces that

intermittent streams are not jurisdictional

waters of the U S HmAever if we tun to irlhat

Custice Kennedy says thats rhece we kind of

get into the eitheror what we also find

there is a great discussion by Justice Kennedy

loiClself on 1e Ccrps definition of a

tributary Counsel was referring to the

drainage ditches as t-ibutaries ard Justice

Kennedy makes it c~ear that the corps

definition of tributary that was in effect at

tr~e time this decision was -rritter middotJsing he

high watermark was not appropriate I and would

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lead in fact to too broad a definition of what

was jurisdictional i~ and of itsef under the

Clean Water Act And theres we dont have

time to read it all but Im sure youve

probably ead it more tirres t~an have

aryay iled also jtst lke to mention tha

qui te frankly the evidence that has been

introduced in this case is the type of

evidence the Cour was r~opng would not be

Csedo prove jurisdictior on such an

important issue and that is its speculative

Its not -- were not arguing that wetlands

arent irrportart J we arent arguing that

wetlands aralt valuabe anc you know in

1990 wed say regulate because we had the

legal authority to do so This again is one

of tlese cases t1at sirrply wishing that 1_e

Q C d h dfe I~upreree o~r~ naa sal some ~~g 1 ~eren~ y

does not make it so This is what the Court

said -- thats the final word on the mater

whatever we decide ~t is bu it S tre firai

word and we c~~t change that regardless ofl

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how mportant or ho wrong someone may think

that it auld be To other quick points to

mention and that is EPA knew about this work

that was going on in February of 1999 and

that is in Jeff Lapps testimony tn Volume 1

page 167 through 169 so EA did kno Most of

t~e woyk was completed by Aprii or May of that

year before EPA every CaIne out to the site

and it wasnt until 2000 chat a notice of

violation was issued

JUDGE SHEEHamp1 So why does that

matte- That is an enforcement choice EPA makes

every day of the week and its not part of

the record i~ has nothing to do with whether

or not the Kennedy or Scalia or any other test

was met It really doesnt seem to bear on the

legal issues here

11S vIILCHER Fair enough For

purpose of ~his arg~~e~tl for t~e pur~ose of

today youre probaDly right J-luge But i~

does matcer if were talking about typical

practice of EPA and while Im well aware that

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theres no requirement to take an enforcemer-t

action in a1ything less trar this period of

statute of limitations if in fact this was as

egregious and as violative and as problematic

as counsel appears to make it seem then EPA

did have every opportlli~ity to stOy that and

in ITany many cases vlhen EP1 sees a clear

violation of the law I they simply issues a

cease and desist order and in a case like

Rapanos in the Rapacos case you have people

who are going out anc taking action and

violating the wetlands law after theyve

received many state and federal cease and

desis orders so the facts of this case are

so di==ere~t from the facts of tha~ case Here

we have someone who was trying to comply with

the law as it was written at the time in my

view he was complying with the law as it was

wri ten at tlat time actG the fact tha EPA

didnt like ~he way the law was written and

what it said and what the courts were

deciding does not give hem authority to come

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in and regulate after the fact

JUDGE WOLGAST Counsel thank you

youre Olt of if you could make your

final point n just r~e next thirty secords J

I think you saie you had two I may be

mistaken

MS WILCHER Thank you Well we

are talkirg about jurisdictio1 I do think

tha tte overall =-ssJe of equity cotes i1to

play Ar~d knowing -- even krowing what the

jurisdiction was at the time of the activities

undertaken is really kind of an unc I Qar

matter Were still struggling with what

j Clrisdict iOI is Re9rettably toat s always

been t~e problem with this program

problem Igtli th this progral7l is that Corgress did

not give us clear direction and clear guidance

to either EPA or to the Boyds or to anyone

else in the regulative corrmlUnity and I t-hink

that s a factor certainly that the court Iblil

consider ard should corsder I when making a

decision on issues of liability and in this

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case we would ask that you do so Thank you

J1DGE voLGAST Thank YOJ Cours

thank yOJ for your arguUent and the case is

now submitted

MS DURR All rise Session of the

Environmenta Appeals Board nmv stands

adjourned

(Whereupon the above-entitled

matter was concluded at 11 16 am)

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ability 5011 722 able 725 above-entitled 1 17

808 absent 224 absolute 588 absolutely 213

734 abundant 1221 abutting 3920 accepted 62 10 access 20 16 5419

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542 Act710 1020

111715193712 4064517649 6720763

action 615 381 78211

activities 79 11

7021117 actual 169 714

7313 adapted 69 addition 6313 additional 820 address 9 14 1111

122 167 2S6 411148175619 734

adjacency 6 11 2284721483

adjacent 29 1818 39194024418 718728

adjourned 807 administrative

1136310 adopted 71 advocacy 25 19 aeria131155213

activity 6920 70 1 bull

Page 81

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Page 82

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tributaries 76 171218229 39182021 402 4451850612 513646718 7518

tributary 75 1720 trickles 606 tried 1417 trophic433 try 822 269 387 trying 92 6619

72573187816 Tuesday 112 turn 310 476

7512 turned 520 twenty7118

two 163 51 1318 5617616652 6676967314 772795 i two-step 2221

type 79201921

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watermark 62 11 62166347522

waters 64 711 16611241417 30338143922 404224115 4461445410 45194611 503 502255141516 551957216 5810186214 685 7017113 7512

watershed 6525 7119724

way 1121521 16202232314 342463722 5013 5318 646 72157820

week 7713 weight 149 5417 well~kDown 1913 Wendelowski 222

398 wentl6225319

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west 25 3922 628 654

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wet 6620 wetland 142021

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were31321518 821 9132119 21212515308 592161217612 77217913

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whethers 3221 Whigham 3912

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712131721 812 10112 125 12151351413 15516815 181115196 2013 2118 221 23521 25521 21112838 29163081418 31123216337

2310 2512618 33124518465 4919501727 768

types 46 13 typical 247 347

3747721 typically 68 223

281114375 662020

_shy--_ U unable 2022 unclear 79 12 underneath 627 understand 191

2212683620 726

undertake 252 undertaken 59

7912 undulations 529

5212 unfettered 20 IS

541920 unfortunately 817

477 United 34 64

121815183814 38 154022585

unreasonable 2212

unreported 683 un-credible 35 14 upJands 1579 upstream 72 1 0 uplaking4212

6515 usage 575 use 244 4321

46175311577 6411

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31175517596 69719754

usual 113

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197147614 vo1no1420 1513

IS 15 values 1914 728

7321 vegetation 68 632 version 412 vial2317 view2793646

52195377818 violating 78 12 violation 7710

788 violative 784 Virginia 339 visible 6019 viit 63 18 1921 void214 Volume 775 voted 7111 686 I--~middotmiddotmiddotmiddot~

IL-_ walk29910 wa]ked292 walking 305403

502162137112 walks 559 want 83 1822

27222813 33166747116 733

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1415 wants 722 wash 575 592 washes 6Q6 Washington 1315 wasnt 12201320

3611413779 water6712710

Nea~ R Gross amp Co 202-234-4433

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Neal R Gross amp Co Inc 202-234-4433

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CERTIFICATE

This lS to certify tha~ ~he foregoi~g transcript

in the matter of Snith Farm 3nterprises ILC

Hon Anna Wolgast E-wironmenta Appeals Judge

Date Jaly 20 2010

Flace Washingson DC

represens the ful and complete proceedings of the

aforementio1cd marter as reported and reduced to

typewriting

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCR8ERS

1323 rOOE iSLAND AVE_ NW (202 234-4433 WASHtGON DC 20005-3701 fNWnnalrqft)6Scom

Page 11: BEFORE THE ENVIRONMENTAL APPEALS BOARD IN ... By...MS. DURR: Environmental Appeals Board of the U~ited States Environmental Protec~ion Agency is now in session for oral argument, in

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here the forest -- the big picture is thatI

Rapanos is a dramatic shift in the way

busir~ess as usual has been done aL these

agencies from 1972 ~ntil 2006 It is -shy

in 2001 you had a little deviation here but

its a ilge dfference and what we find in

the brief -- and what we find in the brief of

t1e govermnent in this case is lot much of a

differerce from how the law previously lttas

interpreted and Ill -- Ill just go ahead

aYld address thae ssae and that is that the

the strongest argument it appears that

he government nakes in its brief dealing

with the significant nexus test is that

wetlands are ~rrponart ~1etlards provide

valuable functions and even Rapanos case

notes that the Clean V~ater Ac has been very

important and serves an important public

interests and Section 404 and the wetla~ds

laws i-l particuar provide ar~ irportant public

interest

JUDGE SHE1 Vie11 i 81 c the

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governments argument that these wetlands I in

particua are important I and can you address

how these wetlands do or do not meet the

Kennedy significant nexus test

fiS WILCHER That woud be t1e

goverlli~ents argument but in this case they

have failed cO co inCroduce by a

preponderance of the evidence ~hat that is

the case

JUJGE WOLGAST Coud you describe

for us what you ~elieve the goverr~ent would

have to show at a minimum to meet Justine

Kernedys significant nexus test in this

context

MS ~iILCHER At a mini~um they

wotd have to show some measure of the effec

that would be had by this wetlands property

upor~ a navigable vater of the Uni ed States

and they have not done so ln ary regard

JUDGE SHEEHIN Wasnt there

abunda1t testimony says the gDve=runent by

expert i1itness Martin and others that there

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was such a C oILleci en YOJ f re speakirg very

theoretically Id like if you could to get

specific about what you think the failu~es are

i~ the governments case on the Kennedy test

MS ~VIrJCHER Yes but if you -shy

+_--ne if you look at the gover1TIleuroEt s

argument one of their lengthy arguments is

about the impact 0 denitrification that

VJetlands provide an important deni trification

iss~eJ pointing out that the Chesapeake Bay

tas too rruch nityogen and tbat its important

to keep that out They talk about the fact

that n~toger coues from atrrosphe-ic

deposition They talk about the fact that

microbes in the soil vi22 break hat rtroger

down and then they talk about that once the

nitrogen is broken dmvr it ll be taken up by

the breeze and i If~ay even be given off again

into -- into the air

JDGE STEIN ltJasn f t there

plentiful testimony by government witnesses

and the companys witnesses as to what was

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occurr~ng specifically at this site I mean

I think the challenge for the compa~y i~ this

appeal 8 that there were credibili ty findings

Chat tiere made by the ALJ as to some of the

testimony by respondents by the companys

wi tnesses and given the Board f 5 standard forJ

crecibility determinations where the 30ard

you knovl historically ove many mar~y years

gives great weight to an ALJ~s finding how is

it ha t we can ove look he ALJ S credibi lity

determinations in the face of countervai~ing

evidence ~hat the ALJ found ~o be credible

(S WILCHER Judge Stel if I

can finish Judge Sheehans question I III ge

right back 0 you on that You were wanting

some specifics and an example of what the

government tried to prove in its case By

go~ng through this whole denitrification

process they nake ~o distinction betwee~ the

value that ris particalar wetlald is making

or any paricular wetland is making I to the

denitrification 0 the Chesapeake Bay

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l5

JUDGE SHEEHAN But the Kennedy

tea says that if wetlands aloLe or in

combination with other wetlands have that

kind of effect

115 WILCHER Wetlands alone or in

corrbinato1 with otrer wetlands or in

combination lith the uplands the arguments

~ha t tbey ace laking wOClld apply equally to

uplands and as the court noted in the Rapanos

decision applying some of these tests as the

government histori cally has applied them to

say that they are jurisdictional sirrply

because hey have value and may be somewhat

miles aay hut may have some connection or

some val~e ~i~es away being speculative in

nature does rot cause it to be

jurisdictional and it sa~d i~ so the en~ire

United States would be considered regulated

llilder tbe Clear~ ater Act

JUDGE SHEEHAN Theres ~~ theres

one and cot to get in the vay of Judge

Steins question but Qne of the exhibitsr

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Remand Exhibit 937 shows a very honeycombed

tissue through the Srith Farm weta1ds going

ou~ to the two rivers and then to the bay I~

looks sure _ surely to me it looks from this

exhibit and otes as if tl1e wetlands are very

proximate to and affect directly the waters

below Car you address that

KS WILCE2R I wil Those naps

do not show any actual measurable connection

nor do they show a contir1oJS surface

conE6ction r~avigable vrates

JUDGE SHEEHAN Why does it have to

be a surface connection tilly car_ t it be stbshy

surface if theres a hydrological link

MS WILCHER But theres ~o

showir~g of a silD-surface hydroogica liak

either Theres a total lack of evidence of

probative dence i~ th~s case to actualy

tie that paricu=-ar vletland Co a rcavigable

water which by the way you would have to gor

fcom tha wetland to a drair~age ditcr~ anc

went out there and traipsed down the site

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before I came here to talk to you about this

but youd have to go fr~~ that -- b~t this ~s

all en the record -- YOlld have to go fron

that area that might be-- that part of it that

might be considered a we~land~ through

drainage di tches t1at are only inerrrit ert

in nature and t1e evidef~ce is clear that

theYre only intermittent in nature including

the USGS blue line dotted lines and then they

would have to go from tlere to Bailey Creek

non- navigable to Drurr Point Creek

non-navigable] then to tributaries of the

westeGl branch of the Elizabeth River I which

is t~e f rst tne you I d hi a ~avigable wate

If go in the opposite

direction they would have to go from drainage

ditches to Quake~ Neck Creek to ~eans Bra~ch

which are tributaries 0 tne ravigable water

the Nansemond River 14d so there there is

no proof that there is a connection

Things could lave been done Tne-e

cOmiddotJld have been dye raclgs there cOlld have

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1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202 234middot4433 WASHINGTON DC 20005-3701 wwwraargrossoom

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been a~l kinds of evidence hey could have

taken samples they could have done

quantitative analysis There is no chemical

evidence there is no physical evidence there

is no biological evidence that connecs this

to a navigable water f and therein lies the

problem

JJDGE TO~GAST Justa if I

could follow up on that before we get back to

cred~bility iss~es

MS HLCHER Okay

JUDGE WOLGAST Are you saying that

the fact they floTlI throJgh ditches is a

jurisdictional problem

MS 1tILCHER Not particularly

JUXE vIOLGASI And the1 get ~ ing

back to the testimony that Judge Sheehan was

referring to where JIdge Morar was referring

to the testimony of Mr Rhodes and Mr Martin

that the property provides flood storage flow

moderaion carbOIl sequestration vlater

purification denitrification what I want to

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undsystard aboJt your argument 1s are these

aspects insufficient or would they be

sufficient if in your mind there was more

evidence of the connection of these attributes

to the Nansemond or Elizabeth Rivers

MS iILCHER EPA -- the govenment

cant simply say that wetlands are valuable

because they are-- help prevent flooding and

not show that they would help prevent flooding

in this particular case and that it would

significantly help prevent flooding in t~is

partcular case lrJha ttey have done toe

Drie is to siIply lay down he well-knoJl

attributes a~d valuable functions and values

of wetlands and said therefore this is

having a significant effect on navigable

~ivers Theye is not a co~~ection they have

lot snoltm by a1y credible evidence cause and

effect of any sigrifcant iIEpact tpon thef

navigable rivers

JUDGE SHEEHAN But you make

again a very theoretical argument about the

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fact Chat the goverruuent just argues wetlands

fgelerally but werer t government wi tnesses

crawling allover this property mul iple

times testify~ng at great lengtl lots of

exhibits aerials historc maps and

everythi~g else to show in this case fo~ this

property there was trat link Its hard to

believe with all that 11Bssive Estimony and

getting to ~he credibility issue that he

governrrent doesn~t have a pretty solid case

rat hat nexus sat) sfyilg the Kennedy test

exists

MS WILCHER It is hard to

believe I totally agree It is hard to

believe Tle governmert has had unfettered

aCCess to this property for over a decade and

have failed 0 develop flmr drainage elements

they cant show how illuch flows off the site

they cant show vhat type of sediment runoff

might have occurred at ~he site ~hey ca~tt

show what type of water retention is teld Jy

the site t~ey have been unable to show any

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ecoogical cC1nection 1tith regard to wildlife

there was a Woodcock seen on the site There

is absolutely -- and its amazing to me hat

tr~ere is a void

JUDGE STEIN But isnt the test a

nexus a significant nexus not this

sJbstantial inpacts est that I hear wove]

through some of your statements and T dont

-- when I go back and I look at the Kennedy

opinion you knot] and some of he hings t1at

are cited I dont necessarily see that that

test requires the level of proof that youre

stggesing is reqJired ny hat test So

perhaps you could explain to me based on the

Kennedy opinion how you get from there to the

level of proof Lhat you re a5~ing for f just to

establish jurisdiction

MS WILCHER Certainly

JUDGE STEIN I mean I we re not

here to determire you know penalty or

anything else were here just to figure out

if youre even i~ tbe door

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MS IILCHER Yes understand

Ie 1 1 what Justice Kennedy said was to talk

abmlt he fJay the Corps nac typically

regulated wetlalds and then to say absent

more speciic regulations however the Corps

must establish a significant nexus on a case

by case bBSS wler it seeks to regulate

wetlands based on adjacency to non-navigable

tributaries and then it goes on to say given

the potential over breath of the Corps yen s

regulations this showing is necessary to

avoid unreasoDable applications of the

statute

The justice wrote I no~ just a

~exus if the COurt had only said there has to

be a nexus then o~e would have a different

burden of proof in this case the court said

a significant nexus and we have to assnne

that a significant nexus is meaningful that

those words mean SOIEethi1g So theres a -- at

least a two-step process One to show that

theres a nexus and the other is to show that

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its significant and that is what the record

is devoid 0 in this particular case

JUDGE SlEIN But its not a

significa1t impact its a significant nexus

MS iILCHER Thats right a

significant nexus And the sigrificart rexus

must -- and if YOu read through the rest of

the case it talks abolt hm -- that in order

to regulate land as water there must be some

type of impact on the water

JUDGE SHEEHAN Justice Kennedy

also uses a phrase that think is pertinent

here r he says that the how -- how the proof is

determined has to be done in a practical way

ard i almost sounds as if what you I re

requiing is that the governrrent set up flow

meers or pour a vial of discharge into a

ditch and see if it eventually ends up in the

Chesapeake or do something on a very

impractical scale to prove ~he connectio~

MS WILCHER You know this is a

really important issue The governrrent has to

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do sOIething oJer than to make allegations r

especially in a case where youpoundre dealing with

constitutional issues such as privae property

rights and how one car jse his own property

or hers and in this case I there are lots of

things tha~ EPA historically has done for

ypcal NPDES cases But when you before he

Board on a NPDES case theres at least some

measure If they had had pictures that there

las a plurne comir_g off of this wetlar~d if

theyd done any flow calculations if theyd

had any physical chemical biological

evidence of a nexJS and a signiican- nexus to

the navigable waters which again( are not the

ditches they are the ditches that flow to the

creek that flow 0 the creek that flow 0 the

navigable waters j then it would be a different

case but that is not what has happened in

this case

JUDGE IJOLGAST Well as you say

the goverIl1lent obviously has the burden of

proof i~ a~ eLfo~cerne~t case l but is this the

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same type of evidence that you thirk a

_a~Qowne~ should Lndertake I mean obviouslY

they have the burden to obtain a permit where

there is potential jurisdiction

I~S ~JILCaER Btt if the person

doesnt obtain a permit ~~ and the government

thinks that theyre i~ error again the

government always has the burden of proof

JUDGE vJOLGAST Right but J 1m

talking about getting a -- yOJ know starding

in the landowners shoes before weve ever

gotten to an enforceme1t case it -- it I

mean I ~h~nk theres some iSS48 with getting

back to the Supreme Court case that one of

he things that were concerned about - at

least lJustice Scalia pointed to was how much

evidence time money it takes to vJOrk

thro~gh ~h~s process and it sou~ds like the

yeLl know r the advocacy here is that there

should be more not less

)15 ~JLC1ER There stou1d be

something dore by the government in thi s

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regayd to actually prove a nexus and a

sgnificant nexus ard in this ease I canr

assuye you Judge Wolgast that the l~downer

has go~e above and beyond the oall of duty

going to the Corps time after ti~e having the

Corps ou to tr~e site and having spent talk

about the time and money and investmert having

his case as understand it having spent

over $800 000 in litiga~ion costs to try to

pr-otect what was legal at tl~e time that it was

aone and so -- so there is a burden

The governme1t has the burden aid

in this case in this par~icular case they

failed to meel it I don I t know why I haven [t

been involved that lor~g ~ would speculate

tl1at by the time he Rapanos case cane along

it V~as jlSt too hard to go back and find the

type of probative evidence that would carry

the cay_

I do not necessaily thirk that

its an impossible tas~ There have been ot~er

cases that ve reviewed aihere the goverrUent

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has irtroduced evidence of the poundows tr~e

amount of drainage that has occurred how much

water might be taken up by a wetland area$ but

none of that was done in thi s particular case

and again we can only speculated why that

was the case

JDDGE STIN How does tr_s S~xth

Circuit decision in the Cundl f f matter bear on

your view that the -- you need some sort of

laboratocy araysis to prove h~s7

MS ~VILCHER in that

particular easel you dont have as I ~ecall

the -- the disarce roIT a navigable waer

tha t we have here [ and I think the farther you

are away from a navigable water the harder it

is 0 prove tha~ theres any impact on that

navigable water and in this -- again in this

case they are far away from a navigable

water and I think toe reaSC1 tha~ we don

see the p=oof is because its not there itS

not developable and that is why it is not

Cere Did yOl wart De to ~~

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JUDGE STEIN I do wact you to get

the credibility question

MS bull WILCHER I dian t t want to

forget your - shy

JUDGE STEIN No while we we~e on

this topic why cor t t yOJ addres s the

credibility question

MS vILCHER I think its an

important question IC t S a real important

question and that is simply that s even though

the regtllatior~s do provide that typicaily when

the ALJ hears the witnesses and makes

determinations 0 ~~eir credib~~ity that

typically this Board will defer to that

However in this case a carefctl review of the

record shows that the ALJs just got it wrong

and it is within this Boards prerogative to

look at the -- look at t1e factors tha

that the ALJs used in making their

deterninatior and make a judgreJt aboJt

wl1ether those factors are sufficient

A couple of examples There was a

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mar who had Iived OT the farm for h~rty years

who testified that he I d walked over the farm

for thir~y years and testified that in fact

Ithe streams J or the drainage di tches were

intermittent in nature and did not carry water

I - 1 h d - a11 th e trre bull e __ t e JU ge ~n tHe QeClS10n

said well I think hes a nice man I think

hes beholden to the Smi ths f and he was just

Ollt or a wa so totally just discounted his

testimony saying he WBS just out on a walkJ

as if that meant t~at somebodywQuldnt no~ice

DGE ~vOGAST ~ Are yot saying

though that it would have to carry water all

tre time

MS vHLCHER No no But but

it f s clearly -- is Eot a navigable water lor

it is adjacent nor is the wetland adjacent to

a navigable water in this case It flows

anything t~at =lows opound= of t~at a~ea that has

been considered to be wetland by the

goverr-Uent flows -rxough drainage ditches

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that are only intermittent in nature and

~herefore are ~ot co~sidered to be navigable

watsYs clea~ly urder the Rapanos decison

JUDGE SHEEHAN But if the man

walking the land said that they were

intermittent and youre saying intermittent

doesnt matter

I~S IgtlILCHER Were saying that -shy

Judge Cha~eski as I recall said tha~ there

was a c01tinuOU5 flow of 5088 kind isnt that

-- d~~lt J~dge Char~eski say that

WOLGAST lrJell Justice

Scalia said that even after that -shy

HS WILCHER Right right

JUDGE WOLGASl That that

seasonal flow could establish jurisdiction

~nder the pluralitoes test

148 t-JILCEER BJt there s not beenj

seascnal flow established -=-n this case Yot

have somebody going out there en particular

days after these ditches have been dug which

we all know alter the flow in drainage after

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the eLi tches are dug ftJaer goes to the lowest

level and so theres going to be more water

draining OU= of there t~a~ ~here would have

been in 1998 and 1999 and that -- that is

clear ~tat ~tere is no ev~de~ce ac the time

this was done they were -- they were anything

but inerYlitten and here l s no j1risdictiola1

connection that they have proven to date

JUDGE ~JOLGAST And what do you

think they would have had to have shown to

show seasonal flow

MS ~IILCHER Well they could

have done something more than go out there

nine times over tbe course of a year rrhey

could have had aerial photographs taken Ihey

cod have -- weil first yOl have the uSGS -shy

you have the USGS maps as showing its

inteYrnittent and theres lierally no

testimony en the record right now to show that

theyre anything but interrrdtent Ot-her than

to say that if somebody goes out there ~ine

Cimes and looks at the flow and sees water

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then -- agair~1 keeping ir mind this was years

atel 1_8 dainage d=- tches tver-e dtg ha t were

channeling more water into the old one through

seven drainage areas there B nothing tof

establish what was the~e at ~he time in 1998

a~d 1999

JUDGE VlOLG~rST And I think

isnt this what courts are struggling with in

the sense that its -- its one thing to say

~ts ~~ter~itte~tf b~t is that good enough I

mean I dont you have to figure out just how

much flow in you know what period of time

or the idea that -- I dont -- if someoae

says t~at its intermitte~t Irr not sure that

means its ir~ or out without further evidence

MS WILCHER Right Well that

shows really the that shows arguably a

cQnYlecion Bu how rrlcr =ow is going through

there whether sediment loading is going

through there whether theres an ecological

connection through there all these whethers

lead to whether t~e~e is a sig~ificant nex~s

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to a navigable water and if you look at some

of the other cases ~here has been that kiLd of

information introduced and in this case there

is none

JUDGE vJOLG1ST hhat case are you

thinking of

MS vJILCiER I thirki1g maybe

t was the Precon case ir - - in the Eastern

District of Virginia Its on appeal in the

Fourth Circuit I may r~ve been ~hat BJt

I 11 be happy to provide some cases -- a case

or cases later on that show the type of

evidence that tas been introdJced because I

remember reading about them and cant think of

the name right now

TlDGE SHEEIiAN I Vant to go back

for a moment to Judge Stein J s question about

credibility

gtIS CLCHER YOS

JUDGE SHEEHAN So ALJ Moran sat

through days and days of testimony on the

bench a lot of pecple ~n ~~at witness chair

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Hes there hes on he scere hes

~nterpreting the way the witnesses speak and

their basic credibility which you can only do

face to face in that way Wha~ is it about

what happened there that causes you to think

theres sOne way or some reason for as not to

credit the typ~cal deferehce we would extend

There must be some exception here that we ~eed

0 know about for that to happen

MS WLCHER tAJel1 r ard there are

a few facts that I think would be relevant to

your consideration in that case In the first

instance some of these wi~nesses that the ALJ

deter~ined were not credible --Jere stipJlated

as being expert vtitnesses and hat shows at

least sorre level of credibility in the mind of

the government w th regaro to whetJ~er they

were experts in the field

Second some of the criticisms

in one case a criticism that an ALJ made of an

expert wi tness was that he had not beer~ 0 the

site often enocgh yet vith one of the

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gover~ors -~ goverG~entls expert witnesses

that person had been to the site less times

t1an t1e Srith Farms expert witress A1C SO

there is a confounding sense that in this

particular case for whatever reason if the

experts agreed ~ th r~e goverr_rne1t f they were

credible and that if they di~~t they were

not

It just seems highly unlikely that

every single witness iltroduced by Smith

Far~s and Ive had the pleasure of working

wi th Mr Boyd and it lS just I think

statistically urEkely that one could End

that many unmiddotmiddotmiddotcredible witnesses and in thisf

case I do not believe that they were not

credib2e I believe they were as credible ald

as I mentioned in some cases were stipulated

in beirg expert w~t~esses ~~

JUDGE SHEEHAN So you didnt

believe they were

HS WICHER I did not bel ieve

they were not credible so I believed that

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they were credible And -- and it is sOIEewhat

confoundirg other than to say that the

closest thing that I could figure out was that

if hey supported t~e governments viev tey

were credible and if they did not support the

governments Vlew I they were not

CJDGE trrOGAST But dien f t Judge

Moran find that -- and to generalize ---- that

the witnesses failed to establish that to the

exent t1ere were weta1ds they -lere isolated

by on-hydric soil lasnt that a central part

of his credibility determination

MS ~vILCHER Well trat S O1e of

the findings that Judge Moran made but in

this paricular case keep in mind its not

Smi Parms tha-c has 0 show that there is a

break or a barrier -- its the government who

has to show that the~e is a con~ection

JUDGE liOLGAST Of

understand Right

HS IIILCHER So theres cerainly

pockets of non-hyd~ic soil in tte area and

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for SOle reaSCl EPA _ ar~d again this is just

ki~d of amazing to me

spent this long on that EPA did not go out

there and do a typical delneaion of the

site and this is something that is cypically

done Its amazing that EPA did not issue a

cease and desist order as soon as t~ey ~~ew

abouc it There are many things that to me

are amazing about this case that quite

frarky I are he easor that I came nere to

argue it Because lIm a strong believer in

protecting the Clean Water Act and in

protec~ing lteta-ds and you mayor may lOot

know from my history I I bear a lot of scars

from having trIown myself in the body of

wetlands protection bac~ in the days ana I

still believe its an important thing to do

But I also believe its important to follow

~~e rule of law and ~n chis case Mr Boyd

made every effort to follow the rule of law

and I bel ieve he did and when it did not work

out tte way that EPA wanted the law to be

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this enforcement action came forward at a

time -- and had they intervened early on i~

t~is case they cou~d have stopped They knew

months before the work was cOITpleted -- hey

knew months before the work was completed that

there was ditching and draining going on

t~ere and trey did no move in quickly to try

to resolve that case ar~d they could have -shy

they could have stopped most of the so called

harm that they are now alleging but chose not

to do so ~~ey dd ~ot do a deineaLion they

did not inroduce proof that this particular

part of property has a significant nexus to

jurisdictional waters of the United States to

a navigable water of the United States I and

thats the reason I~ he~e

JJDGE VJOLGASI I see your time is

expired if theres no other questions

MS WILCHER Thank you

MS S~J~ET~ Good morning You=

Honors My name is Stefania Shaliat and I

represent Region III in this matter

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specifically the complainants who are the

division directors for the Environmental

Assessment a1d Irr~ovation Divisio1 and he

vater Protection Division I at EPA Regio11 III

With me at counsel table Id like to

i~troduce DO1la Carner-Tal f who is regulatory

co-msel for the Nc-folk District Army Corps of

Engineers and Karen ~lendelowskl gt who is with

the office of general cour~sel and also we

have a disirglshed g1e8 1$ d lke to

introd~ce -- si~~ing behind me is Dr Dennis

Whigham with the Smithsonian Environmental

Resea=cr Cente- Your Honors responders have

do~e ~~ if I ca~ get in a couple points -- a

good job of obfuscating what are really very I

very simple facts here The simple facts are

hat these are tllelands perfouuiq docurrenced

functions that are delivered to tributaries

These wetlands are adj acent physically

trose trib-ltaries f ard those

tr lbtacies flow to traditiorally navigable

waters to the West 2600 feet away to the

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East 4200 feet away In other words the are

wetlands adjacent to tributaries that low

waki1g clstance to tr-adi ional1y navigable

waters These Vetlfu1ds were jurisdictional

under SWANCC as respondent conceded in Clean

~later Act Appeal mmber 05-05 when respondent

reseved argll1snt on jtrisdicto1 but chose

not to raise it un~il there was a change in

case law They continue to be jurisdictional

under any standard enunciated by he Supreme

Court in Rap~~os The qJan~u~ of proof offeree

by the complaina1ts i1 this matter not only

exceeds preponderance of the evidence it

exceeds any quantum of proof required by

Rapanos In fact t far exceeds it Another

thirg that is obscured in the ar9J11ent here by

the respondents is that up until 2007

respondents had a different set of expert

witnesses It las tlose expert witresses that

coroplainalts stipulated 1heir expertise was

in wetlands identification and the connection

of wetlands to waters of the uniced States

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Ihose witnesses largely agee with

complainac1t I s version of the facts on the

ground ae-d i wasnt until 2007 when

respondents hired a new set of expert

witnesses that any real dispute arose about

what exactly was going on in the site There

was dispute about ithat hat nean f but not

exacly what the physical characteristics of

t21e si te ere

J1DGE WOLGAST Counsel coud you

address Ms wilchers points that while there

may be flow moderation carbon sequestration

there may be some evidence that the government

hasnt shmlTI a nexus between those

characterist~cs and the ~avigable waters

vIS SHAME Sure First of alI

the evi6erce of Je fuYlctions beirg performed

on this S1 te is not speculative There are

photo after photo and testimony after

testimony the governments evidence is based

or established scientific literature that

identifies something called field indicators

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-- physical characteristcs on the ground -shy

that when identified correlate to a specific

functi~n being formed by the wetland In this

case there are three Tr~e first was fow

noderaiou and one of the physical

characteristics thez-e would be such things as

ponding you see a lot of later being

captured in low levels depressional levels

withir the wetland Tle record conta1s dozens

of photos of that The secord is

denitrification and that is the microbes

llptaking nitrogen in the soil That indicator

is something called modelirg i1 he soil It sI

a red spotch Essentially it IEeans that iron

is there That evidence comes not only from

the complainants but if one were to reviel

the soi 18 expert froIT respordent Dr Parkers

O~ I-fr arlter f s firs expe~t repo-t ir

20C3 he describes modeling in his sails The

third is primary production That is the1

contribution of a food source Taking

transforming organics that a2e in the _- in

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nature into a food source in water that then

tralsports that food source dowYlsream to

higher trophic organisms The best evidence of

that actually comes from one of respondents

experts Dr Cahoot 1110 photographed it

leaving the site I cant find the photo at

the marneYlt f blt I 11 describe what he says

Foaing a he confluence of the ditch

leaving the property with ditches along the

property boundary near the railroad This foam

vias also sampled and examined microscopically

--- it contained primary plant debris some

peller ald rllnero-lS sma oil droplets These

oil droplets in my opinion were probably

plant oils derived froI decomposition of the

organic matter in this area That description

correlates perfectly with the description in

the testimony in tZ1e remand hearng about what

primary production s the transport of

particulate and dissolved organics downstream

as a food sOJce So the -Jse 0 the -- t~1e

functions this case are not speculative

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theyre clearly being per-formed theyre

clearly being cocC1ented as beir~g perforrred on

this wetland Theres also evidence of the

hydrologic connection between this wetland

the ibuaries and the downst-eam

trad~tionally r~avigable waers Again that

comes both frOIE complainant ~ s experts as well

as some of respondents experts one of

respondent I s experts described tr_at hydrologic

co~nectio3 as such He descrbed the wetland

as a table tcp on which somebody pours water

the water comes off of that table top into

the ditches and then tansports down to the

taditional1y navigable waers The sane

expert lgtIr Wolf also agreed that the

wetlands on the site were in fact

hydrologically conYlected to the di tches wr~ich

forrr tributaries and lJlere n fact adjacs1t to

them So we also have fUTIction ard we have

transport Now with respect to Ms Wilchers

corrment -shy

JUJGE WOLGAS~ is YoDr

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posi tion on the type of evidence that you

need to show nexus of

characteristics you see on site to the

navigable waters

gt1S SHAtvET My positio1 is tha we

met it exactly and I would refer you to

Justice Kennedys opinion Justice Kenledy

ide~tified the type of functions that he would

consider to form a significant nexus

traditional navigable waters and those are

p~ecisely the functions that were identified

on this site Specifically Justice Ker-nedy

refers to slowirg COt-C of surface runoff r

filtration and purification -- that would be

in on 547 US 773 to 75 He sta~es with respect

to weta1ds f the rationale for the Cleal ~fater

Act regulation is as the Corps as recognized

that vetlands can perforrl cri tica2 functioES

re2-ated to the integrity of other waters

functions such as pollutant trapping -- in

other words l denirifcatior~ -- flood control

flow moderation and ruriOff storage

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Ther-efore the types of functions that we

docrraented as beng performed or this site are

precisely the ypes of unctiors tha Jusice

Ken1edy ide1tified J in his opinion as the

type of functions that form a significant

nexus

JUDGE SHEEHAN In in your

brief on page 46 you say that the Kennedy

Test requiEs weta1ds cont-ibutions to the

physical c1emical or biologic in-egrity of

doOrIlstream waters -- is it nor or Hand Your

brief says or

MS SHAMET The brief says II or -shy

JUDGE SHEEHAN Because if it can

De just one of those -shy

SHA4ET I believe Justice

Kennedy did use and however it is c2ear

that he does not require a function to

contribute to all ~hree factors and chats

clear from the function he identifies

JUDGE SHEEHAN Then why did he say

and

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MS SHAMET I think he said and II

but he had a comraa and a1d he was -eferring

to a list of examples rather than a standard

i1ith respect to Ms Wilchers cormnent that we

dont have any photographs of pltLnes as I

indicatedf one were to trt 0 R Ex 28 f

which llnfortunatey I can f find right now I

ltlhich is Respondent 1 s Exhibit 28 from the

first hearing in 2003 Dr Cahoon provides a

picture of that plume himself I would also

point out that with respect to

denitriication one wouldnt expect to see a

pInrr -- thats the exact point its to hold

Che nitrogen on the wetland -lot send it

downstream

JUDGE STEIN How is the Rapanos

significant nexus test d_fferent if at all

=rom the nexus i~ Rivervew Rverside

Bayview

MS SHAMEl Riverside Bayvie

assumed a nexus based upon adjacencYi in this

case lJustice Kennedy has asked that we

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actually go forward and establish that the

nexus exists rather than simply assuming itI

based On adjacency

JUDGE SHEEHamp~ on page 41 of your

brief you quote some of the tesciroo1Y of the

first ALJ hearing I which sounds a lit~le more

entative to me tha1 youre souidir_g today

about the substa1tial nexus test being met

The brief~ at page 41 reads that these

wetlands are more likely to perform

denitrification more likely to allow for

suspended settlements -- sediments to settle

out~ more likely to support a different suite

of wildlife species that to me is

lar-guage ~rats ~ot qui~e as powerful as

saying there is a substantial nexus met here

that just sounds -- can yo~ address what seems

to be more diffident language in your brief

than what youre articulating today

MS SHAMET Well as Your Honor

pointed out T the language that you pointed to

in the brief is from the 2003 hearing before

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tr~e Rapanos case As the Board is avlare J he

EPP~ agreed and argued that the evidence to

satisfy Rapanos had not been fl11y developed

as of 2003 and this precisely why we

requested a remand

JUDGE SHEEHAN But youre cit i ng

it here filed long after Rapanos as if its

still your position

MS SHAME~ I cited a lot of other

evidence as lJell Your Honor incLuding the

testimory of Mr Rhodes he testi~cny of Dr

~fhigham and the testimony the f1Tther

estimony of Hr Mart So while that is a

piece of evidence it is certainly not the

only evidence cited in our brief

JUDGE WOLGAS~ ~o go back to the

point you were making earlier about how the -shy

in essence the three-part test is the same

type of evidence yo~ would look to to

establish sign~ficant nexus ard Justice

Kernedy did seer to speak to hat saying much

the sarre evidence I referring to tre Corps ssect

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delineation manual type evidence should

P8nnit the establishment of a significant

nexus witr navigable wates

particularly if supplemented by further

ev~dence abou~ the significance of the

tributaries to which the wetlands are

cO11ected How does the gove-nment interpret

the latter part of that quote

MS SILllltlECmiddot I think that the

government needs to show and has shown in

this case that there is an ability of those

trihttayies Co conect the wetlands to a

traditionally navigable water in such a way

that the poundtnctions are delivered In this case

we have certainly shown the hydrologic

cO1nect=-o1 some of respondents expe-ts have

agreed with us that that connection exists and

tha there is sufic8Ylt ~hat there is

water exchange there and weve also shown

that heres proxirrity here again these are

walking distance to traditionally navigable

waters this is not the Rapanos case where it

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traveled 32 miles So we think we have met

that burden here by sho~Jing the hydrologic

connection and showing that these tributaries

are capable of delivering the function With

respect to cr-edibi=-ity and he points that

Your HOlors asked of AS Wilcher I would just

point out tha~ lTudge lvlorans credibility

determination was based on demeanor and also

on the facts of this case An important fact

to note for insta11ce is in the firstF

r~earing in 2003 respondent I s soils exper

who laid a g=id fOJnc 53 ou 55 sarnples

hydric The only two that were non-hydric had

JUDGE STEIN I couldnt hear you

MS SHApoundT Had 53 Oelt of 55 soil

sa~ples he identified as hydric in the site

soEs or ei ther side In the secord heaocilg

Dr Pierce testified that there was

essentially non-hydric soils everywhere And

on cross-examination he was asked didn t youI

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find any hydric soils and he said oc yeah

I found them I just didnt click on my GS

locator and ider~tify where they were and I

just didn It report them He only reported the

non-hydric soEs That is the kind of thing

that happened that caused Jtdge l-loran 0 find

a lack of c-edibility vvlth respect to 9r

Straw Dr Straws expert report disc1ssed

undulations in the landscape that he

interpreted to mean ere were no wetlands

tlere On the sand he conceded trat there

were no u1dulaions on tr~e landscape -- he had

mis~nterpreted the aeria= photo More

importantly he conceded ~hat he knew about

ha t erroy before the hearing and leverf

corrected it until cross-exa~ination Judge

Moran had ample basis for finding no

credibility on those witnesses

JUDGE SEIN Is it your view tha~

the Board has no authority to overrale an

ALJs credibility determination

MS SHAl-1ET No YOJr Honor the

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Board reviews he case de novo lffuile the

Board certainly defer to the ALJ r s credibili ty

determination what I run saying that in this

case t~ere is no basis for overturn~~g it

JUDGE STEIl If we were to

overturn it -- a credibility determination

what kinds of factors r it your view s1ould 18

be taking into aCCo4nt

MS S~~~ET I would think you

oelld be looking to see whether or not the ALJ

has a rational basis oh gosh I hate to use

legal standards like that -- but some sort of

bass or hich he based his credibiliy

deerrtination that he explained why there was

a lack of credibility and I think in this

case he did so amply

JUDGE SHEEHAJ If Ms v~i 1 cher S

correct characterizing the way testimony

cedibclity went i soanced almost like a

hundred percent credit to government

witnesses and practically zero to

respondens witnesses f tratg acctrate

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jus stipulat-=-ng 0 trat assumption - - if

t~atfs accu~ate would that be a basis fer not

allcwing deerence to Jdge Morans

credibility determinations if its so

lopsided

ocs SH_~ET In this case I would

say no just simply because in this case we

have a classic battle of the experts I but

oddly enough the ba~~ling experts are al on

respondents side And )hat we have are

experts whD ~estif~ed in 2007 who flat

disagreed wit the testimony of respordent S

experts in 2003 without any atterrpt by the

2007 experts or respondents to reconcie

that testiITony Given that circumstance it sf

not surp-isirg that the experts in 2007 s

testimony were given very litte weight One

of the things that Hs ltJilcher referred 0 was

unfettered access to the site If anyone had

u~fettered access to the site~ it was

respondent and yet there are no photos in the

record showing the streaL~S leaving the site

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dry except during a drought

JUDGE VOLGAST But her point was

tha t the goverrunert ~as the bmiddoturden here

MS SHlHEI And the burden -- he

government has met the burden In fact in

this case the preponderance 0 the evidence

literally the only evidence other than

testirrony by the site owner testimony by

someone who walks around a three-hu1dred-acre

site hunting and looki1g for damage in che

fieds which lS what he estified he was

doing there and photographs taken during a

d--ought he oV9rtlhe=Iilg evidence is that the

waters do flow on a regular basis First of

all these waers have been napped the

waters leaving the site -- as flovving water by

USGS for hal f a century

JUDGE vIOLGAST Yo mentioned that

the waters flow on a regular basis Is that a

conir~uols bas~s

MS SHAMET We would say it would

be part of every year Your Honor

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JUDGE SHEEHAJ Tlen W1Y 18 that

necessarily continual The Scalia Test now

that veve 901e to continual flow is jilst

that -- there has to be continual flow He

says even the least significant of the lake

river ocealS or streams the four water

bodies the least significant steams has to

have COlticua you

repeatedly say - make other instances that

are to me a lot less cor~fdent t1~an what

Scalia seems to deilland You say page 31 the

drains flow at least part of every yeari page

35 at least SOme portion of every year at

least at least at least it comes up

repeated-ly in YOlr brief vlhich couid be just

one rain event So theres one rain at least

it flows one or two days after the rain aod

thats certainly a far cry I would argue

from continual So can you address the seeming

gap between your statemen~s and what Scalia

seems to demand as far as continual flow

~S SHk1ET Ie would state that

Your

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Justice Sca~ia described re1ativey permanent

wateYs He made pretty clear wrat teose were

He did~t require any specific n~~er of days

of flow -- what he did say was common sense

and common usage distinguished between a wash

and a seasoral river and tha f s in foot1ote

five respondent likes to use the term

intermitten~ a lot but the one thing it is

clear from footnote 5 is that Justice Scalia

does not give the term intermittent any

ocegulatoY import trJhy Because he

specifically decli~ed ~o define it

JUDGE SHEEHAN Why doesnt he give

it regulatory import when at least seven

tirres by ely count in his opinion he says

iEtermi tent waters do not cca11 fy as

jurisdictional -- he even calls it an oxymQron

ac one point

~S SHAMET Even though he does

not -- he declines ~o defihe it He says that

thee are defiritions 0 nterrnttent bu he

sees 10 reason to identify what tlose are

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here I and then he specifically says I We have

no occasion in this litigation to decide

exacty whe1 he cryirg up of a streambed is

continuous and frequent enough to disqualify

tle channel as a water 0 the Cnited States

~jUDGE SHEEI-IAN I know we can t -shy

aobody knows what intermitter~t meaJs with

aOsol~te rigor thas obviously subject to

interpretation But the fact is he

contlnmiddotually rejects intermitten~ waters

whatever that Ireans as jurisdictional a1d

you say intermittent doesnt matter I dont

know how yot can say lat in the face cf al

his statements that intermittent does w~tter

HS SHAMET I think the evidence

dernorstrates pretty clearly that ther-e is

regular flow on a regular basis in these

wateTs A good exaTIple

JUDGE SHEEH1ll~ Im not talking

about the eviderce 1lT talking about the

standard

MS SHAIjET The standard lS that

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there has to be a relatvely pe-mar_ent tvater

It cant be a wash it cant be someLhing that

flows only occasionally only in response co

a very strong rainfall i~ cant be a gutter

It has to be a geographic feature ~~d in this

case we have USGS mapping these as geographic

features conainng Vlaer for over ffty

years which if thatis not relatively

permanent I In not qui te sure what would be

JUDGE SHEEHAN C-ne1 how else - shy

why else -- why is it that you cannot muster

more behind your argument that these are

lowing dyains tha1 just saying at least part

of the year continually You never say its

continual you never say its relatively

permanert ane not interrrittert you seem to

stay away from saying that and it seems

purposeful because it happens so frequently

1 S SHAHET ~J e dont

over~exaggerate our evidence we say what it

is And in this case what we r re saying is Ie

agree hsse styeams dry up for part of ~he

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year VJe f ve never argued that these were

perennial streams because theyre not They

are streams that only flow for part of the

year But part of the year is good enough

1nder Jtstice Scalia f s test These are rot

washes theyre ~ot t ckles When they flow

t1ey flow As Jlldge Mo-an pointed out I the

record is replete wi th photos of these streams

flowing and floling wi th a good arnount ofI

water them Now for exanpJe -shy

JUDGE SHEEHlll Flowing at least

part of the year right

MS SHAME~ Flowirg at least part

of the year If I could get the photo up An

example is ~his series of photos~ if we can

get it up If not Ill jus give tre exhibit

numbers Not a perfect picture This photo was

taken in December 2006 As you can see

theres visible flow in the stream A1d this

is Complainants Exhibit 328 co~plai~ants

Ex-hibit 308 - sarre sreart same location you

can tell by the cross January 07 J still

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lt- Low~ng

JUDGE SHEElI1N ~Iha t does tha t

realy prove YOJ cOl-=d go out right after a

rain as apparently happenedi apparently Dr

Whigham went out afte rain irw 07 ard Judge

Moran noted that he was out two days after a

big rain so naturally the drains were full

DJ showing us occasiQral ~-

IS SHAlyenjET If you can show four

sraight lonths of floN f think youre

probaby doing pretty good This is O1e of

respondent I S exhibits This is Dr Straws

photo ta~er_ in February 2007 This s

Respondents Exhibit 57pp

JUDGE VJOLGASI I (IT sory 1 whose

testimony was ~his

MS SHAMET Dr Straws The other

~h~ng that is documeGted -- Im just going to

go ahead and give you April April 2007 still

flow This is Complainants Exhibit 391 and

just ia case were llorried about March e

dont have March 2007 we have March 2003

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JIDGE SHEEHAN What drain is that

MS SHAMET This is Complainants

Exhibit 102L

JUDGE SHEEHAN What drain

MS SHAMET This is the portion of

drait six- seven as it leaves the si-se

crosses unde~~ea~h the railroad tracks to che

west and leaves the site We would also noce

chat in che 2003 hearing it was established

ard Judge ChaYlJeski acc6ped ordinary hig

watermark for the duration of the streams

leaving the site from the time they leave the

site cntil the time they wa~king distance

away hit traditionally navigable waters Now

whIle Justice Scalia said that existence of an

ordinary high waternark in and of itself does

not estabJish jurisdicion it does remair a

fact on the ground that shows the preseTlce of

f~c~J O-1r b~ief did cite in a footnote a

number of cases that describe what an ordinary

high water mark means and what it basically

means is that theres water there on enoJgh

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of a regular basis that theres no

vegetation and Dr Straw in poirtig at that

photo 57pp poined out that there was an

ordinary high watermark there e believe that

we 1ave s~ovm t2lougt t~1at eviderce as well is

that theres a regularity of flow through

these water bodies tJi th respect to Ms

~iilcher f s suprise that EA did not issue a

cease and desist order we in fact did we

issued an admif~istrative order n 2000 I

doat have the record citatio~ with me bu~ I

believe it was testified to in the 2003

tearilg In addi tion tlith respec 0 YIs

Wilchers conunent that EPA knew about the

operation before it was completed and didnt

intervere ~rat is also not correct In Culy

of 1999 EPA contacted respondent and

requested a site visit A- that time the work

was not done l6 site visit was scheduled in

-- they did the scheduling In July and the

visit was schedJled in September and in

August respor~dent brought equipment to the

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site and finished it up to present EPA with a

fai t accompli Couple other points There I s

bee~ a ~w~er of debates i~ t~e b~ie= about

briefs about whether or not there are in

fact wetlands on the sice and whether or not

they extend all the way to the tributaries

First of all ~othi~g in Rapanos altered the

EEe~gy and Water Developmert Appropriations

Act of 1993 Public Law 102377 106 Statutory

at Large 1315 in which Congress directed the

Corps of Eng~leers to use t~e 1987 wetlands

delineation nanual until a replacement manual

was established the courts have

recognized deference to the Corpss 1987

manual as the agencys interpretation of its

OvT regulatiors That manual was applied in

this case That manual when applied in this

case identifies wetlands throughout the site

JUDGE SHEEHAN A~e these -- are

these wetlands these draircs are tl_ey fed by

a1Y other source than rain

MS SHAMET No Your Honor These

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wetlands are what are called the top of the

watershed and this is why water flows in two

directions off of this site -- it flows both

west and east because its at the top of the

watershed

JUDGE SHEEHAN So any water on the

site its all rain-fed

MS SHAMET Yes The seasonality

of it however I can be established through

testimony regarding how the plants on this

site interact with that precipitation And

that testimony discusses the relationship

between whats called leap out and

transpiration In other words when the leaves

are on the trees the trees are uptaking water

from the ground -- from the groundwater table

and the groundwater table decreases and

thats why you see lower levels of water in

the summer During the winter when the leaves

are off the trees the trees are not

transpiring yet -- the water table rises and

thats why these are seasonally flowing

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s~reams and seasoca~ systems

JUDGE SHEEHAN Is there any

testirtony in the record abott the frequency of

the rain If rain is it is the source is

rain something on this property that occurs

f if -y times a year I a hundred t iITes a year t

two ~ines a year

MS SHAME= YOur Honor the

2003 record I believe there was an exhibit

and I apologize that I canZt name the exhibit

number for you right now that idenifies what

a one year storm is f what a three year stOrIT

is~ and l-lha a five year storm is in that

county and I apologize that I cant come up

with the exhibit number for you right now

JUDGE SHEEHAN vlell whats your

recolecion about it irhat it says eve if we

dont know the exhibit right now 111 just

trying to get a bead on how -- whether its

typically dry or typically wet there With

rain

MS SHAI-fET Your Hono f I cant

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recall I believe its under a~ inch -- around

a~ inch bu~ ca~t say foy su~e I look at

a lot of these for a let opound dipoundfeent areas

and I don~t want to get one mixed up with the

other

JUDGE ~]OGAST vTose testimony

we6 you reerrlg to gtThen you were discusslg

seasonality

MS SHAMET That was testimony of

Mr Martin It is at Remand Transcript 1912

~~d Rema~d Transcript 354

JUDGE STEI f he Board we~e to

conclude tha the evidence in this case meets

the Kennedy est is it necessary for theI

Board to consider whether the evidence meets

the plurality test

18 8HAMET Its the posiio1 of

EPA hat satisfying either test will establish

geographic jurisdiction under the Clean Water

Act As the Board noted all courts that have

so held have held tha~ if one meets re

Kennedy Tests then t~ats satised Ir

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a~swer actually to one of your questions I

1think Judge Steir there is one case It S an

unreported case out of the District of Hawaii

that has held that the Kennedy Test is lircited

to isolated waters and hat Y0l otherwise

apply to Scalia Test and that is Sierra vs

COJ1ty of Honolulu 2008 us Distcict EX=S

64262 1 and we would just note that that case

is inconsistent with the governing circuit

lali ts tle 9h Circuit and we believe its

inconsistent with Headlesburg and Moses but

you did ask lthether there was any case that

discussed he Sca=--~a test and that is the

only one at least Im aware of To answer

your question we believe t11at satisfying the

Kennedy Iest wOll-~d be sufficient and it would

not be necessary to reach the Scalia Test i

however we do beLeve thas weve satisfied

boh in this case and that ei ther test will do

it All through

JUDGE SHEEHAN Can you poi~t us iL

the record to what may not be a gap but it

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looks like a bit of a gap at least from the

briefs There I s a lot of testimony -- a lot of

discussion in your brief about the history

the history on the site water on the site

for exa~pe a 1953 p~cto s~ows di~ch O~e had

water I a 1937 photo one two and four had

water 1920 f USGS map had five -- ditch five

had water And then so we leap from sixty f

seventy years ago to the present decade

oegirning in 1999 middotJ~el a buner of inspectio1B

occurred mainly in 99 I and there was some

hopscotching and then they e~ded in 2007 So

he~e --- at least from the bries treres a

fairly big gap between the very very historic

taps and photos I and then ~he 1999-on

inspections and That they showed What about

the intervening

HS SHlIiCET - believe tha~ we also

discussed the USGS maps in 1994 which were

the most recent maps prior to activity As

YOUY HO1ort s aware from the Boards decisio1

in Bricks its inCUInbent upon us to show what

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the wates Jere lLlte before the activity f not

after the activity

JUDGE SHEE~~ Right bue the

before here is well before Thats my

~estion I dont see much except for that 94

map

MS SHAMET 1Ind we also used

aeria photography from 1994 and 1995 to

suppla--nent rphere I S been nO evidence in the

record that anything changed between 1994 and

1995 and the acivity in question which

started in I believe December of 98 or

Jaluary cf 1999 Ane I believe responcerts

agreed on the western side of the site in

their expert reper that the configuration

has been co~sistent si~ce 1949 up until the

time of the activity If there are any further

quest iors I woud jus smnnarize again by

pointing out that the facts this case are

veoy very siltple Ttese are wetlands theyre

clearly docJmented as wetlands the

preponderance of the evidence established the~

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as wetlands The preponderance of evidence -shy

tle overwhelming preponderance of the evidence

established that Chese wetlands are

performing actual documented functions The

very significant nexlJS that Justice Kennedy

described in h~s opinion The evidence in this

case shows that these wetlands are physically

adjacent to tributaries These are ditches

they are rranmade bu~ wo~d ~ust note that

iJ Ra9a~os itself the ditches were manmade

and no justices voted about that They flow

waking dista1ce to tradi tionally r~avigable

waters and 7hey are jllrisdictional Thank

you

MS v-JILCHER May it please the

cOJgt IrJClnt to t~lank couJsel for -aising the

tabletop analogy necause I forgot to This is

at a divide It is twenty feet above sea

level It 8 a watersted divde lke he

cortinental divide such hat water is flowirg

away it is not at the bottom of anything It

is nQ a marsh it is EDt a bog it is Lot a

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swarrcp i1-is is ar~ area where there is no

abili ty for the fJetland to capture and keep

pollutants out of a Y1avigable water because it

lrsef is a the very head of the watershed

And so trying 0 -- f you Jere able to be

there and see that~ you woald understand that

its not got the same type of functions and

values as some area ad) aca1t to below I

cach1g f pYEvertng po=-l-ltion cori1g frou a

10 of upstream areas While thats not

parricularly significant

JUDGE SHEEHIlll Havent yo just

helped ma~e te argumelOt that with gravity

lorking as it 60es any discharge of a

po1hltant up high wotld have made its way dOlJID

low f to a navigable water

MS WILCHER Yes so this is not

a rrounanols area fh=-s is a very slight

slope 11 fact to the naked eye it s almostt

hard to see a slope

JUDGE SHEEHAN Why does flow

matter as significant ~exus goes

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HS VrJCHER We11 the amount of

rur~offf qJie fr-ankly r~at would occur can

matte w~th regacd to that I do want 0

address a few absolutely incorrect things that

were stated and a couple misconceptions Let

me start with the mischaracterization of the

axpert witnesses that were hired in 2007

There seems to be some attempt to imply that

hiri1g differe1t expert witnesses to deal with

wtether this is ju-iscicto1al under Rapanos

is the same as having expert witnesses to

testify whether or not this area met the

former -- the actual definition of a wetland

Theyre two different things You can have a

wetland and it ca1 still not be

jClrisd~ctional So itS our hope that the

Board doesnt misconstrue that to say that by

hiring different fgtxperts you were trying to

get a different result which was not the case

-- its simply that if youre looking at how

much flow what the funcions of values ar-e

its a very differert thing fran sorteone who

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caL go ou~ a~d do the soil samples to

determine whats hydric and whats not

Seco~d jus~ as with regard to the

credibility of the witnesses just as there

were some -- a case perhaps whee ac-I expert

witness misstated something or changed its

rnird 1 so did some of the government I s expert

wi tnesses misstate something that then had to

be co-ected So did the brief that said

that took the word and and changed it to

Or witr regard to what Justice Kennedy hadI

written So I dont think that that in and of

itself has any significarce wi th regard to the

credibility of a witness tihen we are talking

abcu lGVJ fa this land is from a navigable

water counsel has mentioned that it S 2600I I

feet middotrhich is about half a mile or 4200

feet which is close to a mile -- thats not

to reac-t a navigabe water Let us be clear

That is to reach something that is not

necessarily an intermittent area4 EPA

stipulated l the stipulations dated

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Septewer 8th 03 that the water body

depicted and ]i5 is nurrbers 37 and 38 that

the water bodies depicted as these drainage

ditches on the site are depicted by the USGS

topa rEap at the 3allary Hill (Phonetic)

quadrangle as a broken blue line and that a

broken bae line denotes an irtermi ttent

stream These are intermittent streams ard as

Justice Sheehan has correctly noted Judge

Scalia says n mary circ1JIstarces that

intermittent streams are not jurisdictional

waters of the U S HmAever if we tun to irlhat

Custice Kennedy says thats rhece we kind of

get into the eitheror what we also find

there is a great discussion by Justice Kennedy

loiClself on 1e Ccrps definition of a

tributary Counsel was referring to the

drainage ditches as t-ibutaries ard Justice

Kennedy makes it c~ear that the corps

definition of tributary that was in effect at

tr~e time this decision was -rritter middotJsing he

high watermark was not appropriate I and would

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

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lead in fact to too broad a definition of what

was jurisdictional i~ and of itsef under the

Clean Water Act And theres we dont have

time to read it all but Im sure youve

probably ead it more tirres t~an have

aryay iled also jtst lke to mention tha

qui te frankly the evidence that has been

introduced in this case is the type of

evidence the Cour was r~opng would not be

Csedo prove jurisdictior on such an

important issue and that is its speculative

Its not -- were not arguing that wetlands

arent irrportart J we arent arguing that

wetlands aralt valuabe anc you know in

1990 wed say regulate because we had the

legal authority to do so This again is one

of tlese cases t1at sirrply wishing that 1_e

Q C d h dfe I~upreree o~r~ naa sal some ~~g 1 ~eren~ y

does not make it so This is what the Court

said -- thats the final word on the mater

whatever we decide ~t is bu it S tre firai

word and we c~~t change that regardless ofl

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRA-SCRIBERS

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how mportant or ho wrong someone may think

that it auld be To other quick points to

mention and that is EPA knew about this work

that was going on in February of 1999 and

that is in Jeff Lapps testimony tn Volume 1

page 167 through 169 so EA did kno Most of

t~e woyk was completed by Aprii or May of that

year before EPA every CaIne out to the site

and it wasnt until 2000 chat a notice of

violation was issued

JUDGE SHEEHamp1 So why does that

matte- That is an enforcement choice EPA makes

every day of the week and its not part of

the record i~ has nothing to do with whether

or not the Kennedy or Scalia or any other test

was met It really doesnt seem to bear on the

legal issues here

11S vIILCHER Fair enough For

purpose of ~his arg~~e~tl for t~e pur~ose of

today youre probaDly right J-luge But i~

does matcer if were talking about typical

practice of EPA and while Im well aware that

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202) 234middot4433 WASHINGTON DC 20005middot3701 wwwooalrgrO$$oom

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theres no requirement to take an enforcemer-t

action in a1ything less trar this period of

statute of limitations if in fact this was as

egregious and as violative and as problematic

as counsel appears to make it seem then EPA

did have every opportlli~ity to stOy that and

in ITany many cases vlhen EP1 sees a clear

violation of the law I they simply issues a

cease and desist order and in a case like

Rapanos in the Rapacos case you have people

who are going out anc taking action and

violating the wetlands law after theyve

received many state and federal cease and

desis orders so the facts of this case are

so di==ere~t from the facts of tha~ case Here

we have someone who was trying to comply with

the law as it was written at the time in my

view he was complying with the law as it was

wri ten at tlat time actG the fact tha EPA

didnt like ~he way the law was written and

what it said and what the courts were

deciding does not give hem authority to come

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202) 234-4433 WASH1NGTON DC 20005middot3701 wwwnealrgrosscom

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in and regulate after the fact

JUDGE WOLGAST Counsel thank you

youre Olt of if you could make your

final point n just r~e next thirty secords J

I think you saie you had two I may be

mistaken

MS WILCHER Thank you Well we

are talkirg about jurisdictio1 I do think

tha tte overall =-ssJe of equity cotes i1to

play Ar~d knowing -- even krowing what the

jurisdiction was at the time of the activities

undertaken is really kind of an unc I Qar

matter Were still struggling with what

j Clrisdict iOI is Re9rettably toat s always

been t~e problem with this program

problem Igtli th this progral7l is that Corgress did

not give us clear direction and clear guidance

to either EPA or to the Boyds or to anyone

else in the regulative corrmlUnity and I t-hink

that s a factor certainly that the court Iblil

consider ard should corsder I when making a

decision on issues of liability and in this

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND tRANSCRIBERS

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case we would ask that you do so Thank you

J1DGE voLGAST Thank YOJ Cours

thank yOJ for your arguUent and the case is

now submitted

MS DURR All rise Session of the

Environmenta Appeals Board nmv stands

adjourned

(Whereupon the above-entitled

matter was concluded at 11 16 am)

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

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activities 79 11

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activity 6920 70 1 bull

Page 81

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Page 82

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bull Neal R Gross amp Co Inc 202-234-4433

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Page 83

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Nea~ R Gross amp Co Inc 202-234-4433

Page 84

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CERTIFICATE

This lS to certify tha~ ~he foregoi~g transcript

in the matter of Snith Farm 3nterprises ILC

Hon Anna Wolgast E-wironmenta Appeals Judge

Date Jaly 20 2010

Flace Washingson DC

represens the ful and complete proceedings of the

aforementio1cd marter as reported and reduced to

typewriting

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCR8ERS

1323 rOOE iSLAND AVE_ NW (202 234-4433 WASHtGON DC 20005-3701 fNWnnalrqft)6Scom

Page 12: BEFORE THE ENVIRONMENTAL APPEALS BOARD IN ... By...MS. DURR: Environmental Appeals Board of the U~ited States Environmental Protec~ion Agency is now in session for oral argument, in

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governments argument that these wetlands I in

particua are important I and can you address

how these wetlands do or do not meet the

Kennedy significant nexus test

fiS WILCHER That woud be t1e

goverlli~ents argument but in this case they

have failed cO co inCroduce by a

preponderance of the evidence ~hat that is

the case

JUJGE WOLGAST Coud you describe

for us what you ~elieve the goverr~ent would

have to show at a minimum to meet Justine

Kernedys significant nexus test in this

context

MS ~iILCHER At a mini~um they

wotd have to show some measure of the effec

that would be had by this wetlands property

upor~ a navigable vater of the Uni ed States

and they have not done so ln ary regard

JUDGE SHEEHIN Wasnt there

abunda1t testimony says the gDve=runent by

expert i1itness Martin and others that there

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was such a C oILleci en YOJ f re speakirg very

theoretically Id like if you could to get

specific about what you think the failu~es are

i~ the governments case on the Kennedy test

MS ~VIrJCHER Yes but if you -shy

+_--ne if you look at the gover1TIleuroEt s

argument one of their lengthy arguments is

about the impact 0 denitrification that

VJetlands provide an important deni trification

iss~eJ pointing out that the Chesapeake Bay

tas too rruch nityogen and tbat its important

to keep that out They talk about the fact

that n~toger coues from atrrosphe-ic

deposition They talk about the fact that

microbes in the soil vi22 break hat rtroger

down and then they talk about that once the

nitrogen is broken dmvr it ll be taken up by

the breeze and i If~ay even be given off again

into -- into the air

JDGE STEIN ltJasn f t there

plentiful testimony by government witnesses

and the companys witnesses as to what was

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occurr~ng specifically at this site I mean

I think the challenge for the compa~y i~ this

appeal 8 that there were credibili ty findings

Chat tiere made by the ALJ as to some of the

testimony by respondents by the companys

wi tnesses and given the Board f 5 standard forJ

crecibility determinations where the 30ard

you knovl historically ove many mar~y years

gives great weight to an ALJ~s finding how is

it ha t we can ove look he ALJ S credibi lity

determinations in the face of countervai~ing

evidence ~hat the ALJ found ~o be credible

(S WILCHER Judge Stel if I

can finish Judge Sheehans question I III ge

right back 0 you on that You were wanting

some specifics and an example of what the

government tried to prove in its case By

go~ng through this whole denitrification

process they nake ~o distinction betwee~ the

value that ris particalar wetlald is making

or any paricular wetland is making I to the

denitrification 0 the Chesapeake Bay

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JUDGE SHEEHAN But the Kennedy

tea says that if wetlands aloLe or in

combination with other wetlands have that

kind of effect

115 WILCHER Wetlands alone or in

corrbinato1 with otrer wetlands or in

combination lith the uplands the arguments

~ha t tbey ace laking wOClld apply equally to

uplands and as the court noted in the Rapanos

decision applying some of these tests as the

government histori cally has applied them to

say that they are jurisdictional sirrply

because hey have value and may be somewhat

miles aay hut may have some connection or

some val~e ~i~es away being speculative in

nature does rot cause it to be

jurisdictional and it sa~d i~ so the en~ire

United States would be considered regulated

llilder tbe Clear~ ater Act

JUDGE SHEEHAN Theres ~~ theres

one and cot to get in the vay of Judge

Steins question but Qne of the exhibitsr

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Remand Exhibit 937 shows a very honeycombed

tissue through the Srith Farm weta1ds going

ou~ to the two rivers and then to the bay I~

looks sure _ surely to me it looks from this

exhibit and otes as if tl1e wetlands are very

proximate to and affect directly the waters

below Car you address that

KS WILCE2R I wil Those naps

do not show any actual measurable connection

nor do they show a contir1oJS surface

conE6ction r~avigable vrates

JUDGE SHEEHAN Why does it have to

be a surface connection tilly car_ t it be stbshy

surface if theres a hydrological link

MS WILCHER But theres ~o

showir~g of a silD-surface hydroogica liak

either Theres a total lack of evidence of

probative dence i~ th~s case to actualy

tie that paricu=-ar vletland Co a rcavigable

water which by the way you would have to gor

fcom tha wetland to a drair~age ditcr~ anc

went out there and traipsed down the site

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before I came here to talk to you about this

but youd have to go fr~~ that -- b~t this ~s

all en the record -- YOlld have to go fron

that area that might be-- that part of it that

might be considered a we~land~ through

drainage di tches t1at are only inerrrit ert

in nature and t1e evidef~ce is clear that

theYre only intermittent in nature including

the USGS blue line dotted lines and then they

would have to go from tlere to Bailey Creek

non- navigable to Drurr Point Creek

non-navigable] then to tributaries of the

westeGl branch of the Elizabeth River I which

is t~e f rst tne you I d hi a ~avigable wate

If go in the opposite

direction they would have to go from drainage

ditches to Quake~ Neck Creek to ~eans Bra~ch

which are tributaries 0 tne ravigable water

the Nansemond River 14d so there there is

no proof that there is a connection

Things could lave been done Tne-e

cOmiddotJld have been dye raclgs there cOlld have

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been a~l kinds of evidence hey could have

taken samples they could have done

quantitative analysis There is no chemical

evidence there is no physical evidence there

is no biological evidence that connecs this

to a navigable water f and therein lies the

problem

JJDGE TO~GAST Justa if I

could follow up on that before we get back to

cred~bility iss~es

MS HLCHER Okay

JUDGE WOLGAST Are you saying that

the fact they floTlI throJgh ditches is a

jurisdictional problem

MS 1tILCHER Not particularly

JUXE vIOLGASI And the1 get ~ ing

back to the testimony that Judge Sheehan was

referring to where JIdge Morar was referring

to the testimony of Mr Rhodes and Mr Martin

that the property provides flood storage flow

moderaion carbOIl sequestration vlater

purification denitrification what I want to

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undsystard aboJt your argument 1s are these

aspects insufficient or would they be

sufficient if in your mind there was more

evidence of the connection of these attributes

to the Nansemond or Elizabeth Rivers

MS iILCHER EPA -- the govenment

cant simply say that wetlands are valuable

because they are-- help prevent flooding and

not show that they would help prevent flooding

in this particular case and that it would

significantly help prevent flooding in t~is

partcular case lrJha ttey have done toe

Drie is to siIply lay down he well-knoJl

attributes a~d valuable functions and values

of wetlands and said therefore this is

having a significant effect on navigable

~ivers Theye is not a co~~ection they have

lot snoltm by a1y credible evidence cause and

effect of any sigrifcant iIEpact tpon thef

navigable rivers

JUDGE SHEEHAN But you make

again a very theoretical argument about the

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fact Chat the goverruuent just argues wetlands

fgelerally but werer t government wi tnesses

crawling allover this property mul iple

times testify~ng at great lengtl lots of

exhibits aerials historc maps and

everythi~g else to show in this case fo~ this

property there was trat link Its hard to

believe with all that 11Bssive Estimony and

getting to ~he credibility issue that he

governrrent doesn~t have a pretty solid case

rat hat nexus sat) sfyilg the Kennedy test

exists

MS WILCHER It is hard to

believe I totally agree It is hard to

believe Tle governmert has had unfettered

aCCess to this property for over a decade and

have failed 0 develop flmr drainage elements

they cant show how illuch flows off the site

they cant show vhat type of sediment runoff

might have occurred at ~he site ~hey ca~tt

show what type of water retention is teld Jy

the site t~ey have been unable to show any

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ecoogical cC1nection 1tith regard to wildlife

there was a Woodcock seen on the site There

is absolutely -- and its amazing to me hat

tr~ere is a void

JUDGE STEIN But isnt the test a

nexus a significant nexus not this

sJbstantial inpacts est that I hear wove]

through some of your statements and T dont

-- when I go back and I look at the Kennedy

opinion you knot] and some of he hings t1at

are cited I dont necessarily see that that

test requires the level of proof that youre

stggesing is reqJired ny hat test So

perhaps you could explain to me based on the

Kennedy opinion how you get from there to the

level of proof Lhat you re a5~ing for f just to

establish jurisdiction

MS WILCHER Certainly

JUDGE STEIN I mean I we re not

here to determire you know penalty or

anything else were here just to figure out

if youre even i~ tbe door

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MS IILCHER Yes understand

Ie 1 1 what Justice Kennedy said was to talk

abmlt he fJay the Corps nac typically

regulated wetlalds and then to say absent

more speciic regulations however the Corps

must establish a significant nexus on a case

by case bBSS wler it seeks to regulate

wetlands based on adjacency to non-navigable

tributaries and then it goes on to say given

the potential over breath of the Corps yen s

regulations this showing is necessary to

avoid unreasoDable applications of the

statute

The justice wrote I no~ just a

~exus if the COurt had only said there has to

be a nexus then o~e would have a different

burden of proof in this case the court said

a significant nexus and we have to assnne

that a significant nexus is meaningful that

those words mean SOIEethi1g So theres a -- at

least a two-step process One to show that

theres a nexus and the other is to show that

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its significant and that is what the record

is devoid 0 in this particular case

JUDGE SlEIN But its not a

significa1t impact its a significant nexus

MS iILCHER Thats right a

significant nexus And the sigrificart rexus

must -- and if YOu read through the rest of

the case it talks abolt hm -- that in order

to regulate land as water there must be some

type of impact on the water

JUDGE SHEEHAN Justice Kennedy

also uses a phrase that think is pertinent

here r he says that the how -- how the proof is

determined has to be done in a practical way

ard i almost sounds as if what you I re

requiing is that the governrrent set up flow

meers or pour a vial of discharge into a

ditch and see if it eventually ends up in the

Chesapeake or do something on a very

impractical scale to prove ~he connectio~

MS WILCHER You know this is a

really important issue The governrrent has to

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do sOIething oJer than to make allegations r

especially in a case where youpoundre dealing with

constitutional issues such as privae property

rights and how one car jse his own property

or hers and in this case I there are lots of

things tha~ EPA historically has done for

ypcal NPDES cases But when you before he

Board on a NPDES case theres at least some

measure If they had had pictures that there

las a plurne comir_g off of this wetlar~d if

theyd done any flow calculations if theyd

had any physical chemical biological

evidence of a nexJS and a signiican- nexus to

the navigable waters which again( are not the

ditches they are the ditches that flow to the

creek that flow 0 the creek that flow 0 the

navigable waters j then it would be a different

case but that is not what has happened in

this case

JUDGE IJOLGAST Well as you say

the goverIl1lent obviously has the burden of

proof i~ a~ eLfo~cerne~t case l but is this the

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same type of evidence that you thirk a

_a~Qowne~ should Lndertake I mean obviouslY

they have the burden to obtain a permit where

there is potential jurisdiction

I~S ~JILCaER Btt if the person

doesnt obtain a permit ~~ and the government

thinks that theyre i~ error again the

government always has the burden of proof

JUDGE vJOLGAST Right but J 1m

talking about getting a -- yOJ know starding

in the landowners shoes before weve ever

gotten to an enforceme1t case it -- it I

mean I ~h~nk theres some iSS48 with getting

back to the Supreme Court case that one of

he things that were concerned about - at

least lJustice Scalia pointed to was how much

evidence time money it takes to vJOrk

thro~gh ~h~s process and it sou~ds like the

yeLl know r the advocacy here is that there

should be more not less

)15 ~JLC1ER There stou1d be

something dore by the government in thi s

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regayd to actually prove a nexus and a

sgnificant nexus ard in this ease I canr

assuye you Judge Wolgast that the l~downer

has go~e above and beyond the oall of duty

going to the Corps time after ti~e having the

Corps ou to tr~e site and having spent talk

about the time and money and investmert having

his case as understand it having spent

over $800 000 in litiga~ion costs to try to

pr-otect what was legal at tl~e time that it was

aone and so -- so there is a burden

The governme1t has the burden aid

in this case in this par~icular case they

failed to meel it I don I t know why I haven [t

been involved that lor~g ~ would speculate

tl1at by the time he Rapanos case cane along

it V~as jlSt too hard to go back and find the

type of probative evidence that would carry

the cay_

I do not necessaily thirk that

its an impossible tas~ There have been ot~er

cases that ve reviewed aihere the goverrUent

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has irtroduced evidence of the poundows tr~e

amount of drainage that has occurred how much

water might be taken up by a wetland area$ but

none of that was done in thi s particular case

and again we can only speculated why that

was the case

JDDGE STIN How does tr_s S~xth

Circuit decision in the Cundl f f matter bear on

your view that the -- you need some sort of

laboratocy araysis to prove h~s7

MS ~VILCHER in that

particular easel you dont have as I ~ecall

the -- the disarce roIT a navigable waer

tha t we have here [ and I think the farther you

are away from a navigable water the harder it

is 0 prove tha~ theres any impact on that

navigable water and in this -- again in this

case they are far away from a navigable

water and I think toe reaSC1 tha~ we don

see the p=oof is because its not there itS

not developable and that is why it is not

Cere Did yOl wart De to ~~

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JUDGE STEIN I do wact you to get

the credibility question

MS bull WILCHER I dian t t want to

forget your - shy

JUDGE STEIN No while we we~e on

this topic why cor t t yOJ addres s the

credibility question

MS vILCHER I think its an

important question IC t S a real important

question and that is simply that s even though

the regtllatior~s do provide that typicaily when

the ALJ hears the witnesses and makes

determinations 0 ~~eir credib~~ity that

typically this Board will defer to that

However in this case a carefctl review of the

record shows that the ALJs just got it wrong

and it is within this Boards prerogative to

look at the -- look at t1e factors tha

that the ALJs used in making their

deterninatior and make a judgreJt aboJt

wl1ether those factors are sufficient

A couple of examples There was a

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mar who had Iived OT the farm for h~rty years

who testified that he I d walked over the farm

for thir~y years and testified that in fact

Ithe streams J or the drainage di tches were

intermittent in nature and did not carry water

I - 1 h d - a11 th e trre bull e __ t e JU ge ~n tHe QeClS10n

said well I think hes a nice man I think

hes beholden to the Smi ths f and he was just

Ollt or a wa so totally just discounted his

testimony saying he WBS just out on a walkJ

as if that meant t~at somebodywQuldnt no~ice

DGE ~vOGAST ~ Are yot saying

though that it would have to carry water all

tre time

MS vHLCHER No no But but

it f s clearly -- is Eot a navigable water lor

it is adjacent nor is the wetland adjacent to

a navigable water in this case It flows

anything t~at =lows opound= of t~at a~ea that has

been considered to be wetland by the

goverr-Uent flows -rxough drainage ditches

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that are only intermittent in nature and

~herefore are ~ot co~sidered to be navigable

watsYs clea~ly urder the Rapanos decison

JUDGE SHEEHAN But if the man

walking the land said that they were

intermittent and youre saying intermittent

doesnt matter

I~S IgtlILCHER Were saying that -shy

Judge Cha~eski as I recall said tha~ there

was a c01tinuOU5 flow of 5088 kind isnt that

-- d~~lt J~dge Char~eski say that

WOLGAST lrJell Justice

Scalia said that even after that -shy

HS WILCHER Right right

JUDGE WOLGASl That that

seasonal flow could establish jurisdiction

~nder the pluralitoes test

148 t-JILCEER BJt there s not beenj

seascnal flow established -=-n this case Yot

have somebody going out there en particular

days after these ditches have been dug which

we all know alter the flow in drainage after

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the eLi tches are dug ftJaer goes to the lowest

level and so theres going to be more water

draining OU= of there t~a~ ~here would have

been in 1998 and 1999 and that -- that is

clear ~tat ~tere is no ev~de~ce ac the time

this was done they were -- they were anything

but inerYlitten and here l s no j1risdictiola1

connection that they have proven to date

JUDGE ~JOLGAST And what do you

think they would have had to have shown to

show seasonal flow

MS ~IILCHER Well they could

have done something more than go out there

nine times over tbe course of a year rrhey

could have had aerial photographs taken Ihey

cod have -- weil first yOl have the uSGS -shy

you have the USGS maps as showing its

inteYrnittent and theres lierally no

testimony en the record right now to show that

theyre anything but interrrdtent Ot-her than

to say that if somebody goes out there ~ine

Cimes and looks at the flow and sees water

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then -- agair~1 keeping ir mind this was years

atel 1_8 dainage d=- tches tver-e dtg ha t were

channeling more water into the old one through

seven drainage areas there B nothing tof

establish what was the~e at ~he time in 1998

a~d 1999

JUDGE VlOLG~rST And I think

isnt this what courts are struggling with in

the sense that its -- its one thing to say

~ts ~~ter~itte~tf b~t is that good enough I

mean I dont you have to figure out just how

much flow in you know what period of time

or the idea that -- I dont -- if someoae

says t~at its intermitte~t Irr not sure that

means its ir~ or out without further evidence

MS WILCHER Right Well that

shows really the that shows arguably a

cQnYlecion Bu how rrlcr =ow is going through

there whether sediment loading is going

through there whether theres an ecological

connection through there all these whethers

lead to whether t~e~e is a sig~ificant nex~s

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to a navigable water and if you look at some

of the other cases ~here has been that kiLd of

information introduced and in this case there

is none

JUDGE vJOLG1ST hhat case are you

thinking of

MS vJILCiER I thirki1g maybe

t was the Precon case ir - - in the Eastern

District of Virginia Its on appeal in the

Fourth Circuit I may r~ve been ~hat BJt

I 11 be happy to provide some cases -- a case

or cases later on that show the type of

evidence that tas been introdJced because I

remember reading about them and cant think of

the name right now

TlDGE SHEEIiAN I Vant to go back

for a moment to Judge Stein J s question about

credibility

gtIS CLCHER YOS

JUDGE SHEEHAN So ALJ Moran sat

through days and days of testimony on the

bench a lot of pecple ~n ~~at witness chair

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Hes there hes on he scere hes

~nterpreting the way the witnesses speak and

their basic credibility which you can only do

face to face in that way Wha~ is it about

what happened there that causes you to think

theres sOne way or some reason for as not to

credit the typ~cal deferehce we would extend

There must be some exception here that we ~eed

0 know about for that to happen

MS WLCHER tAJel1 r ard there are

a few facts that I think would be relevant to

your consideration in that case In the first

instance some of these wi~nesses that the ALJ

deter~ined were not credible --Jere stipJlated

as being expert vtitnesses and hat shows at

least sorre level of credibility in the mind of

the government w th regaro to whetJ~er they

were experts in the field

Second some of the criticisms

in one case a criticism that an ALJ made of an

expert wi tness was that he had not beer~ 0 the

site often enocgh yet vith one of the

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gover~ors -~ goverG~entls expert witnesses

that person had been to the site less times

t1an t1e Srith Farms expert witress A1C SO

there is a confounding sense that in this

particular case for whatever reason if the

experts agreed ~ th r~e goverr_rne1t f they were

credible and that if they di~~t they were

not

It just seems highly unlikely that

every single witness iltroduced by Smith

Far~s and Ive had the pleasure of working

wi th Mr Boyd and it lS just I think

statistically urEkely that one could End

that many unmiddotmiddotmiddotcredible witnesses and in thisf

case I do not believe that they were not

credib2e I believe they were as credible ald

as I mentioned in some cases were stipulated

in beirg expert w~t~esses ~~

JUDGE SHEEHAN So you didnt

believe they were

HS WICHER I did not bel ieve

they were not credible so I believed that

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they were credible And -- and it is sOIEewhat

confoundirg other than to say that the

closest thing that I could figure out was that

if hey supported t~e governments viev tey

were credible and if they did not support the

governments Vlew I they were not

CJDGE trrOGAST But dien f t Judge

Moran find that -- and to generalize ---- that

the witnesses failed to establish that to the

exent t1ere were weta1ds they -lere isolated

by on-hydric soil lasnt that a central part

of his credibility determination

MS ~vILCHER Well trat S O1e of

the findings that Judge Moran made but in

this paricular case keep in mind its not

Smi Parms tha-c has 0 show that there is a

break or a barrier -- its the government who

has to show that the~e is a con~ection

JUDGE liOLGAST Of

understand Right

HS IIILCHER So theres cerainly

pockets of non-hyd~ic soil in tte area and

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for SOle reaSCl EPA _ ar~d again this is just

ki~d of amazing to me

spent this long on that EPA did not go out

there and do a typical delneaion of the

site and this is something that is cypically

done Its amazing that EPA did not issue a

cease and desist order as soon as t~ey ~~ew

abouc it There are many things that to me

are amazing about this case that quite

frarky I are he easor that I came nere to

argue it Because lIm a strong believer in

protecting the Clean Water Act and in

protec~ing lteta-ds and you mayor may lOot

know from my history I I bear a lot of scars

from having trIown myself in the body of

wetlands protection bac~ in the days ana I

still believe its an important thing to do

But I also believe its important to follow

~~e rule of law and ~n chis case Mr Boyd

made every effort to follow the rule of law

and I bel ieve he did and when it did not work

out tte way that EPA wanted the law to be

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this enforcement action came forward at a

time -- and had they intervened early on i~

t~is case they cou~d have stopped They knew

months before the work was cOITpleted -- hey

knew months before the work was completed that

there was ditching and draining going on

t~ere and trey did no move in quickly to try

to resolve that case ar~d they could have -shy

they could have stopped most of the so called

harm that they are now alleging but chose not

to do so ~~ey dd ~ot do a deineaLion they

did not inroduce proof that this particular

part of property has a significant nexus to

jurisdictional waters of the United States to

a navigable water of the United States I and

thats the reason I~ he~e

JJDGE VJOLGASI I see your time is

expired if theres no other questions

MS WILCHER Thank you

MS S~J~ET~ Good morning You=

Honors My name is Stefania Shaliat and I

represent Region III in this matter

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specifically the complainants who are the

division directors for the Environmental

Assessment a1d Irr~ovation Divisio1 and he

vater Protection Division I at EPA Regio11 III

With me at counsel table Id like to

i~troduce DO1la Carner-Tal f who is regulatory

co-msel for the Nc-folk District Army Corps of

Engineers and Karen ~lendelowskl gt who is with

the office of general cour~sel and also we

have a disirglshed g1e8 1$ d lke to

introd~ce -- si~~ing behind me is Dr Dennis

Whigham with the Smithsonian Environmental

Resea=cr Cente- Your Honors responders have

do~e ~~ if I ca~ get in a couple points -- a

good job of obfuscating what are really very I

very simple facts here The simple facts are

hat these are tllelands perfouuiq docurrenced

functions that are delivered to tributaries

These wetlands are adj acent physically

trose trib-ltaries f ard those

tr lbtacies flow to traditiorally navigable

waters to the West 2600 feet away to the

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East 4200 feet away In other words the are

wetlands adjacent to tributaries that low

waki1g clstance to tr-adi ional1y navigable

waters These Vetlfu1ds were jurisdictional

under SWANCC as respondent conceded in Clean

~later Act Appeal mmber 05-05 when respondent

reseved argll1snt on jtrisdicto1 but chose

not to raise it un~il there was a change in

case law They continue to be jurisdictional

under any standard enunciated by he Supreme

Court in Rap~~os The qJan~u~ of proof offeree

by the complaina1ts i1 this matter not only

exceeds preponderance of the evidence it

exceeds any quantum of proof required by

Rapanos In fact t far exceeds it Another

thirg that is obscured in the ar9J11ent here by

the respondents is that up until 2007

respondents had a different set of expert

witnesses It las tlose expert witresses that

coroplainalts stipulated 1heir expertise was

in wetlands identification and the connection

of wetlands to waters of the uniced States

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Ihose witnesses largely agee with

complainac1t I s version of the facts on the

ground ae-d i wasnt until 2007 when

respondents hired a new set of expert

witnesses that any real dispute arose about

what exactly was going on in the site There

was dispute about ithat hat nean f but not

exacly what the physical characteristics of

t21e si te ere

J1DGE WOLGAST Counsel coud you

address Ms wilchers points that while there

may be flow moderation carbon sequestration

there may be some evidence that the government

hasnt shmlTI a nexus between those

characterist~cs and the ~avigable waters

vIS SHAME Sure First of alI

the evi6erce of Je fuYlctions beirg performed

on this S1 te is not speculative There are

photo after photo and testimony after

testimony the governments evidence is based

or established scientific literature that

identifies something called field indicators

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-- physical characteristcs on the ground -shy

that when identified correlate to a specific

functi~n being formed by the wetland In this

case there are three Tr~e first was fow

noderaiou and one of the physical

characteristics thez-e would be such things as

ponding you see a lot of later being

captured in low levels depressional levels

withir the wetland Tle record conta1s dozens

of photos of that The secord is

denitrification and that is the microbes

llptaking nitrogen in the soil That indicator

is something called modelirg i1 he soil It sI

a red spotch Essentially it IEeans that iron

is there That evidence comes not only from

the complainants but if one were to reviel

the soi 18 expert froIT respordent Dr Parkers

O~ I-fr arlter f s firs expe~t repo-t ir

20C3 he describes modeling in his sails The

third is primary production That is the1

contribution of a food source Taking

transforming organics that a2e in the _- in

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nature into a food source in water that then

tralsports that food source dowYlsream to

higher trophic organisms The best evidence of

that actually comes from one of respondents

experts Dr Cahoot 1110 photographed it

leaving the site I cant find the photo at

the marneYlt f blt I 11 describe what he says

Foaing a he confluence of the ditch

leaving the property with ditches along the

property boundary near the railroad This foam

vias also sampled and examined microscopically

--- it contained primary plant debris some

peller ald rllnero-lS sma oil droplets These

oil droplets in my opinion were probably

plant oils derived froI decomposition of the

organic matter in this area That description

correlates perfectly with the description in

the testimony in tZ1e remand hearng about what

primary production s the transport of

particulate and dissolved organics downstream

as a food sOJce So the -Jse 0 the -- t~1e

functions this case are not speculative

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theyre clearly being per-formed theyre

clearly being cocC1ented as beir~g perforrred on

this wetland Theres also evidence of the

hydrologic connection between this wetland

the ibuaries and the downst-eam

trad~tionally r~avigable waers Again that

comes both frOIE complainant ~ s experts as well

as some of respondents experts one of

respondent I s experts described tr_at hydrologic

co~nectio3 as such He descrbed the wetland

as a table tcp on which somebody pours water

the water comes off of that table top into

the ditches and then tansports down to the

taditional1y navigable waers The sane

expert lgtIr Wolf also agreed that the

wetlands on the site were in fact

hydrologically conYlected to the di tches wr~ich

forrr tributaries and lJlere n fact adjacs1t to

them So we also have fUTIction ard we have

transport Now with respect to Ms Wilchers

corrment -shy

JUJGE WOLGAS~ is YoDr

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posi tion on the type of evidence that you

need to show nexus of

characteristics you see on site to the

navigable waters

gt1S SHAtvET My positio1 is tha we

met it exactly and I would refer you to

Justice Kennedys opinion Justice Kenledy

ide~tified the type of functions that he would

consider to form a significant nexus

traditional navigable waters and those are

p~ecisely the functions that were identified

on this site Specifically Justice Ker-nedy

refers to slowirg COt-C of surface runoff r

filtration and purification -- that would be

in on 547 US 773 to 75 He sta~es with respect

to weta1ds f the rationale for the Cleal ~fater

Act regulation is as the Corps as recognized

that vetlands can perforrl cri tica2 functioES

re2-ated to the integrity of other waters

functions such as pollutant trapping -- in

other words l denirifcatior~ -- flood control

flow moderation and ruriOff storage

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Ther-efore the types of functions that we

docrraented as beng performed or this site are

precisely the ypes of unctiors tha Jusice

Ken1edy ide1tified J in his opinion as the

type of functions that form a significant

nexus

JUDGE SHEEHAN In in your

brief on page 46 you say that the Kennedy

Test requiEs weta1ds cont-ibutions to the

physical c1emical or biologic in-egrity of

doOrIlstream waters -- is it nor or Hand Your

brief says or

MS SHAMET The brief says II or -shy

JUDGE SHEEHAN Because if it can

De just one of those -shy

SHA4ET I believe Justice

Kennedy did use and however it is c2ear

that he does not require a function to

contribute to all ~hree factors and chats

clear from the function he identifies

JUDGE SHEEHAN Then why did he say

and

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MS SHAMET I think he said and II

but he had a comraa and a1d he was -eferring

to a list of examples rather than a standard

i1ith respect to Ms Wilchers cormnent that we

dont have any photographs of pltLnes as I

indicatedf one were to trt 0 R Ex 28 f

which llnfortunatey I can f find right now I

ltlhich is Respondent 1 s Exhibit 28 from the

first hearing in 2003 Dr Cahoon provides a

picture of that plume himself I would also

point out that with respect to

denitriication one wouldnt expect to see a

pInrr -- thats the exact point its to hold

Che nitrogen on the wetland -lot send it

downstream

JUDGE STEIN How is the Rapanos

significant nexus test d_fferent if at all

=rom the nexus i~ Rivervew Rverside

Bayview

MS SHAMEl Riverside Bayvie

assumed a nexus based upon adjacencYi in this

case lJustice Kennedy has asked that we

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actually go forward and establish that the

nexus exists rather than simply assuming itI

based On adjacency

JUDGE SHEEHamp~ on page 41 of your

brief you quote some of the tesciroo1Y of the

first ALJ hearing I which sounds a lit~le more

entative to me tha1 youre souidir_g today

about the substa1tial nexus test being met

The brief~ at page 41 reads that these

wetlands are more likely to perform

denitrification more likely to allow for

suspended settlements -- sediments to settle

out~ more likely to support a different suite

of wildlife species that to me is

lar-guage ~rats ~ot qui~e as powerful as

saying there is a substantial nexus met here

that just sounds -- can yo~ address what seems

to be more diffident language in your brief

than what youre articulating today

MS SHAMET Well as Your Honor

pointed out T the language that you pointed to

in the brief is from the 2003 hearing before

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tr~e Rapanos case As the Board is avlare J he

EPP~ agreed and argued that the evidence to

satisfy Rapanos had not been fl11y developed

as of 2003 and this precisely why we

requested a remand

JUDGE SHEEHAN But youre cit i ng

it here filed long after Rapanos as if its

still your position

MS SHAME~ I cited a lot of other

evidence as lJell Your Honor incLuding the

testimory of Mr Rhodes he testi~cny of Dr

~fhigham and the testimony the f1Tther

estimony of Hr Mart So while that is a

piece of evidence it is certainly not the

only evidence cited in our brief

JUDGE WOLGAS~ ~o go back to the

point you were making earlier about how the -shy

in essence the three-part test is the same

type of evidence yo~ would look to to

establish sign~ficant nexus ard Justice

Kernedy did seer to speak to hat saying much

the sarre evidence I referring to tre Corps ssect

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delineation manual type evidence should

P8nnit the establishment of a significant

nexus witr navigable wates

particularly if supplemented by further

ev~dence abou~ the significance of the

tributaries to which the wetlands are

cO11ected How does the gove-nment interpret

the latter part of that quote

MS SILllltlECmiddot I think that the

government needs to show and has shown in

this case that there is an ability of those

trihttayies Co conect the wetlands to a

traditionally navigable water in such a way

that the poundtnctions are delivered In this case

we have certainly shown the hydrologic

cO1nect=-o1 some of respondents expe-ts have

agreed with us that that connection exists and

tha there is sufic8Ylt ~hat there is

water exchange there and weve also shown

that heres proxirrity here again these are

walking distance to traditionally navigable

waters this is not the Rapanos case where it

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traveled 32 miles So we think we have met

that burden here by sho~Jing the hydrologic

connection and showing that these tributaries

are capable of delivering the function With

respect to cr-edibi=-ity and he points that

Your HOlors asked of AS Wilcher I would just

point out tha~ lTudge lvlorans credibility

determination was based on demeanor and also

on the facts of this case An important fact

to note for insta11ce is in the firstF

r~earing in 2003 respondent I s soils exper

who laid a g=id fOJnc 53 ou 55 sarnples

hydric The only two that were non-hydric had

JUDGE STEIN I couldnt hear you

MS SHApoundT Had 53 Oelt of 55 soil

sa~ples he identified as hydric in the site

soEs or ei ther side In the secord heaocilg

Dr Pierce testified that there was

essentially non-hydric soils everywhere And

on cross-examination he was asked didn t youI

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find any hydric soils and he said oc yeah

I found them I just didnt click on my GS

locator and ider~tify where they were and I

just didn It report them He only reported the

non-hydric soEs That is the kind of thing

that happened that caused Jtdge l-loran 0 find

a lack of c-edibility vvlth respect to 9r

Straw Dr Straws expert report disc1ssed

undulations in the landscape that he

interpreted to mean ere were no wetlands

tlere On the sand he conceded trat there

were no u1dulaions on tr~e landscape -- he had

mis~nterpreted the aeria= photo More

importantly he conceded ~hat he knew about

ha t erroy before the hearing and leverf

corrected it until cross-exa~ination Judge

Moran had ample basis for finding no

credibility on those witnesses

JUDGE SEIN Is it your view tha~

the Board has no authority to overrale an

ALJs credibility determination

MS SHAl-1ET No YOJr Honor the

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Board reviews he case de novo lffuile the

Board certainly defer to the ALJ r s credibili ty

determination what I run saying that in this

case t~ere is no basis for overturn~~g it

JUDGE STEIl If we were to

overturn it -- a credibility determination

what kinds of factors r it your view s1ould 18

be taking into aCCo4nt

MS S~~~ET I would think you

oelld be looking to see whether or not the ALJ

has a rational basis oh gosh I hate to use

legal standards like that -- but some sort of

bass or hich he based his credibiliy

deerrtination that he explained why there was

a lack of credibility and I think in this

case he did so amply

JUDGE SHEEHAJ If Ms v~i 1 cher S

correct characterizing the way testimony

cedibclity went i soanced almost like a

hundred percent credit to government

witnesses and practically zero to

respondens witnesses f tratg acctrate

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jus stipulat-=-ng 0 trat assumption - - if

t~atfs accu~ate would that be a basis fer not

allcwing deerence to Jdge Morans

credibility determinations if its so

lopsided

ocs SH_~ET In this case I would

say no just simply because in this case we

have a classic battle of the experts I but

oddly enough the ba~~ling experts are al on

respondents side And )hat we have are

experts whD ~estif~ed in 2007 who flat

disagreed wit the testimony of respordent S

experts in 2003 without any atterrpt by the

2007 experts or respondents to reconcie

that testiITony Given that circumstance it sf

not surp-isirg that the experts in 2007 s

testimony were given very litte weight One

of the things that Hs ltJilcher referred 0 was

unfettered access to the site If anyone had

u~fettered access to the site~ it was

respondent and yet there are no photos in the

record showing the streaL~S leaving the site

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dry except during a drought

JUDGE VOLGAST But her point was

tha t the goverrunert ~as the bmiddoturden here

MS SHlHEI And the burden -- he

government has met the burden In fact in

this case the preponderance 0 the evidence

literally the only evidence other than

testirrony by the site owner testimony by

someone who walks around a three-hu1dred-acre

site hunting and looki1g for damage in che

fieds which lS what he estified he was

doing there and photographs taken during a

d--ought he oV9rtlhe=Iilg evidence is that the

waters do flow on a regular basis First of

all these waers have been napped the

waters leaving the site -- as flovving water by

USGS for hal f a century

JUDGE vIOLGAST Yo mentioned that

the waters flow on a regular basis Is that a

conir~uols bas~s

MS SHAMET We would say it would

be part of every year Your Honor

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JUDGE SHEEHAJ Tlen W1Y 18 that

necessarily continual The Scalia Test now

that veve 901e to continual flow is jilst

that -- there has to be continual flow He

says even the least significant of the lake

river ocealS or streams the four water

bodies the least significant steams has to

have COlticua you

repeatedly say - make other instances that

are to me a lot less cor~fdent t1~an what

Scalia seems to deilland You say page 31 the

drains flow at least part of every yeari page

35 at least SOme portion of every year at

least at least at least it comes up

repeated-ly in YOlr brief vlhich couid be just

one rain event So theres one rain at least

it flows one or two days after the rain aod

thats certainly a far cry I would argue

from continual So can you address the seeming

gap between your statemen~s and what Scalia

seems to demand as far as continual flow

~S SHk1ET Ie would state that

Your

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Justice Sca~ia described re1ativey permanent

wateYs He made pretty clear wrat teose were

He did~t require any specific n~~er of days

of flow -- what he did say was common sense

and common usage distinguished between a wash

and a seasoral river and tha f s in foot1ote

five respondent likes to use the term

intermitten~ a lot but the one thing it is

clear from footnote 5 is that Justice Scalia

does not give the term intermittent any

ocegulatoY import trJhy Because he

specifically decli~ed ~o define it

JUDGE SHEEHAN Why doesnt he give

it regulatory import when at least seven

tirres by ely count in his opinion he says

iEtermi tent waters do not cca11 fy as

jurisdictional -- he even calls it an oxymQron

ac one point

~S SHAMET Even though he does

not -- he declines ~o defihe it He says that

thee are defiritions 0 nterrnttent bu he

sees 10 reason to identify what tlose are

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here I and then he specifically says I We have

no occasion in this litigation to decide

exacty whe1 he cryirg up of a streambed is

continuous and frequent enough to disqualify

tle channel as a water 0 the Cnited States

~jUDGE SHEEI-IAN I know we can t -shy

aobody knows what intermitter~t meaJs with

aOsol~te rigor thas obviously subject to

interpretation But the fact is he

contlnmiddotually rejects intermitten~ waters

whatever that Ireans as jurisdictional a1d

you say intermittent doesnt matter I dont

know how yot can say lat in the face cf al

his statements that intermittent does w~tter

HS SHAMET I think the evidence

dernorstrates pretty clearly that ther-e is

regular flow on a regular basis in these

wateTs A good exaTIple

JUDGE SHEEH1ll~ Im not talking

about the eviderce 1lT talking about the

standard

MS SHAIjET The standard lS that

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there has to be a relatvely pe-mar_ent tvater

It cant be a wash it cant be someLhing that

flows only occasionally only in response co

a very strong rainfall i~ cant be a gutter

It has to be a geographic feature ~~d in this

case we have USGS mapping these as geographic

features conainng Vlaer for over ffty

years which if thatis not relatively

permanent I In not qui te sure what would be

JUDGE SHEEHAN C-ne1 how else - shy

why else -- why is it that you cannot muster

more behind your argument that these are

lowing dyains tha1 just saying at least part

of the year continually You never say its

continual you never say its relatively

permanert ane not interrrittert you seem to

stay away from saying that and it seems

purposeful because it happens so frequently

1 S SHAHET ~J e dont

over~exaggerate our evidence we say what it

is And in this case what we r re saying is Ie

agree hsse styeams dry up for part of ~he

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year VJe f ve never argued that these were

perennial streams because theyre not They

are streams that only flow for part of the

year But part of the year is good enough

1nder Jtstice Scalia f s test These are rot

washes theyre ~ot t ckles When they flow

t1ey flow As Jlldge Mo-an pointed out I the

record is replete wi th photos of these streams

flowing and floling wi th a good arnount ofI

water them Now for exanpJe -shy

JUDGE SHEEHlll Flowing at least

part of the year right

MS SHAME~ Flowirg at least part

of the year If I could get the photo up An

example is ~his series of photos~ if we can

get it up If not Ill jus give tre exhibit

numbers Not a perfect picture This photo was

taken in December 2006 As you can see

theres visible flow in the stream A1d this

is Complainants Exhibit 328 co~plai~ants

Ex-hibit 308 - sarre sreart same location you

can tell by the cross January 07 J still

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lt- Low~ng

JUDGE SHEElI1N ~Iha t does tha t

realy prove YOJ cOl-=d go out right after a

rain as apparently happenedi apparently Dr

Whigham went out afte rain irw 07 ard Judge

Moran noted that he was out two days after a

big rain so naturally the drains were full

DJ showing us occasiQral ~-

IS SHAlyenjET If you can show four

sraight lonths of floN f think youre

probaby doing pretty good This is O1e of

respondent I S exhibits This is Dr Straws

photo ta~er_ in February 2007 This s

Respondents Exhibit 57pp

JUDGE VJOLGASI I (IT sory 1 whose

testimony was ~his

MS SHAMET Dr Straws The other

~h~ng that is documeGted -- Im just going to

go ahead and give you April April 2007 still

flow This is Complainants Exhibit 391 and

just ia case were llorried about March e

dont have March 2007 we have March 2003

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JIDGE SHEEHAN What drain is that

MS SHAMET This is Complainants

Exhibit 102L

JUDGE SHEEHAN What drain

MS SHAMET This is the portion of

drait six- seven as it leaves the si-se

crosses unde~~ea~h the railroad tracks to che

west and leaves the site We would also noce

chat in che 2003 hearing it was established

ard Judge ChaYlJeski acc6ped ordinary hig

watermark for the duration of the streams

leaving the site from the time they leave the

site cntil the time they wa~king distance

away hit traditionally navigable waters Now

whIle Justice Scalia said that existence of an

ordinary high waternark in and of itself does

not estabJish jurisdicion it does remair a

fact on the ground that shows the preseTlce of

f~c~J O-1r b~ief did cite in a footnote a

number of cases that describe what an ordinary

high water mark means and what it basically

means is that theres water there on enoJgh

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of a regular basis that theres no

vegetation and Dr Straw in poirtig at that

photo 57pp poined out that there was an

ordinary high watermark there e believe that

we 1ave s~ovm t2lougt t~1at eviderce as well is

that theres a regularity of flow through

these water bodies tJi th respect to Ms

~iilcher f s suprise that EA did not issue a

cease and desist order we in fact did we

issued an admif~istrative order n 2000 I

doat have the record citatio~ with me bu~ I

believe it was testified to in the 2003

tearilg In addi tion tlith respec 0 YIs

Wilchers conunent that EPA knew about the

operation before it was completed and didnt

intervere ~rat is also not correct In Culy

of 1999 EPA contacted respondent and

requested a site visit A- that time the work

was not done l6 site visit was scheduled in

-- they did the scheduling In July and the

visit was schedJled in September and in

August respor~dent brought equipment to the

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site and finished it up to present EPA with a

fai t accompli Couple other points There I s

bee~ a ~w~er of debates i~ t~e b~ie= about

briefs about whether or not there are in

fact wetlands on the sice and whether or not

they extend all the way to the tributaries

First of all ~othi~g in Rapanos altered the

EEe~gy and Water Developmert Appropriations

Act of 1993 Public Law 102377 106 Statutory

at Large 1315 in which Congress directed the

Corps of Eng~leers to use t~e 1987 wetlands

delineation nanual until a replacement manual

was established the courts have

recognized deference to the Corpss 1987

manual as the agencys interpretation of its

OvT regulatiors That manual was applied in

this case That manual when applied in this

case identifies wetlands throughout the site

JUDGE SHEEHAN A~e these -- are

these wetlands these draircs are tl_ey fed by

a1Y other source than rain

MS SHAMET No Your Honor These

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wetlands are what are called the top of the

watershed and this is why water flows in two

directions off of this site -- it flows both

west and east because its at the top of the

watershed

JUDGE SHEEHAN So any water on the

site its all rain-fed

MS SHAMET Yes The seasonality

of it however I can be established through

testimony regarding how the plants on this

site interact with that precipitation And

that testimony discusses the relationship

between whats called leap out and

transpiration In other words when the leaves

are on the trees the trees are uptaking water

from the ground -- from the groundwater table

and the groundwater table decreases and

thats why you see lower levels of water in

the summer During the winter when the leaves

are off the trees the trees are not

transpiring yet -- the water table rises and

thats why these are seasonally flowing

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s~reams and seasoca~ systems

JUDGE SHEEHAN Is there any

testirtony in the record abott the frequency of

the rain If rain is it is the source is

rain something on this property that occurs

f if -y times a year I a hundred t iITes a year t

two ~ines a year

MS SHAME= YOur Honor the

2003 record I believe there was an exhibit

and I apologize that I canZt name the exhibit

number for you right now that idenifies what

a one year storm is f what a three year stOrIT

is~ and l-lha a five year storm is in that

county and I apologize that I cant come up

with the exhibit number for you right now

JUDGE SHEEHAN vlell whats your

recolecion about it irhat it says eve if we

dont know the exhibit right now 111 just

trying to get a bead on how -- whether its

typically dry or typically wet there With

rain

MS SHAI-fET Your Hono f I cant

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recall I believe its under a~ inch -- around

a~ inch bu~ ca~t say foy su~e I look at

a lot of these for a let opound dipoundfeent areas

and I don~t want to get one mixed up with the

other

JUDGE ~]OGAST vTose testimony

we6 you reerrlg to gtThen you were discusslg

seasonality

MS SHAMET That was testimony of

Mr Martin It is at Remand Transcript 1912

~~d Rema~d Transcript 354

JUDGE STEI f he Board we~e to

conclude tha the evidence in this case meets

the Kennedy est is it necessary for theI

Board to consider whether the evidence meets

the plurality test

18 8HAMET Its the posiio1 of

EPA hat satisfying either test will establish

geographic jurisdiction under the Clean Water

Act As the Board noted all courts that have

so held have held tha~ if one meets re

Kennedy Tests then t~ats satised Ir

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a~swer actually to one of your questions I

1think Judge Steir there is one case It S an

unreported case out of the District of Hawaii

that has held that the Kennedy Test is lircited

to isolated waters and hat Y0l otherwise

apply to Scalia Test and that is Sierra vs

COJ1ty of Honolulu 2008 us Distcict EX=S

64262 1 and we would just note that that case

is inconsistent with the governing circuit

lali ts tle 9h Circuit and we believe its

inconsistent with Headlesburg and Moses but

you did ask lthether there was any case that

discussed he Sca=--~a test and that is the

only one at least Im aware of To answer

your question we believe t11at satisfying the

Kennedy Iest wOll-~d be sufficient and it would

not be necessary to reach the Scalia Test i

however we do beLeve thas weve satisfied

boh in this case and that ei ther test will do

it All through

JUDGE SHEEHAN Can you poi~t us iL

the record to what may not be a gap but it

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looks like a bit of a gap at least from the

briefs There I s a lot of testimony -- a lot of

discussion in your brief about the history

the history on the site water on the site

for exa~pe a 1953 p~cto s~ows di~ch O~e had

water I a 1937 photo one two and four had

water 1920 f USGS map had five -- ditch five

had water And then so we leap from sixty f

seventy years ago to the present decade

oegirning in 1999 middotJ~el a buner of inspectio1B

occurred mainly in 99 I and there was some

hopscotching and then they e~ded in 2007 So

he~e --- at least from the bries treres a

fairly big gap between the very very historic

taps and photos I and then ~he 1999-on

inspections and That they showed What about

the intervening

HS SHlIiCET - believe tha~ we also

discussed the USGS maps in 1994 which were

the most recent maps prior to activity As

YOUY HO1ort s aware from the Boards decisio1

in Bricks its inCUInbent upon us to show what

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the wates Jere lLlte before the activity f not

after the activity

JUDGE SHEE~~ Right bue the

before here is well before Thats my

~estion I dont see much except for that 94

map

MS SHAMET 1Ind we also used

aeria photography from 1994 and 1995 to

suppla--nent rphere I S been nO evidence in the

record that anything changed between 1994 and

1995 and the acivity in question which

started in I believe December of 98 or

Jaluary cf 1999 Ane I believe responcerts

agreed on the western side of the site in

their expert reper that the configuration

has been co~sistent si~ce 1949 up until the

time of the activity If there are any further

quest iors I woud jus smnnarize again by

pointing out that the facts this case are

veoy very siltple Ttese are wetlands theyre

clearly docJmented as wetlands the

preponderance of the evidence established the~

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as wetlands The preponderance of evidence -shy

tle overwhelming preponderance of the evidence

established that Chese wetlands are

performing actual documented functions The

very significant nexlJS that Justice Kennedy

described in h~s opinion The evidence in this

case shows that these wetlands are physically

adjacent to tributaries These are ditches

they are rranmade bu~ wo~d ~ust note that

iJ Ra9a~os itself the ditches were manmade

and no justices voted about that They flow

waking dista1ce to tradi tionally r~avigable

waters and 7hey are jllrisdictional Thank

you

MS v-JILCHER May it please the

cOJgt IrJClnt to t~lank couJsel for -aising the

tabletop analogy necause I forgot to This is

at a divide It is twenty feet above sea

level It 8 a watersted divde lke he

cortinental divide such hat water is flowirg

away it is not at the bottom of anything It

is nQ a marsh it is EDt a bog it is Lot a

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swarrcp i1-is is ar~ area where there is no

abili ty for the fJetland to capture and keep

pollutants out of a Y1avigable water because it

lrsef is a the very head of the watershed

And so trying 0 -- f you Jere able to be

there and see that~ you woald understand that

its not got the same type of functions and

values as some area ad) aca1t to below I

cach1g f pYEvertng po=-l-ltion cori1g frou a

10 of upstream areas While thats not

parricularly significant

JUDGE SHEEHIlll Havent yo just

helped ma~e te argumelOt that with gravity

lorking as it 60es any discharge of a

po1hltant up high wotld have made its way dOlJID

low f to a navigable water

MS WILCHER Yes so this is not

a rrounanols area fh=-s is a very slight

slope 11 fact to the naked eye it s almostt

hard to see a slope

JUDGE SHEEHAN Why does flow

matter as significant ~exus goes

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HS VrJCHER We11 the amount of

rur~offf qJie fr-ankly r~at would occur can

matte w~th regacd to that I do want 0

address a few absolutely incorrect things that

were stated and a couple misconceptions Let

me start with the mischaracterization of the

axpert witnesses that were hired in 2007

There seems to be some attempt to imply that

hiri1g differe1t expert witnesses to deal with

wtether this is ju-iscicto1al under Rapanos

is the same as having expert witnesses to

testify whether or not this area met the

former -- the actual definition of a wetland

Theyre two different things You can have a

wetland and it ca1 still not be

jClrisd~ctional So itS our hope that the

Board doesnt misconstrue that to say that by

hiring different fgtxperts you were trying to

get a different result which was not the case

-- its simply that if youre looking at how

much flow what the funcions of values ar-e

its a very differert thing fran sorteone who

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caL go ou~ a~d do the soil samples to

determine whats hydric and whats not

Seco~d jus~ as with regard to the

credibility of the witnesses just as there

were some -- a case perhaps whee ac-I expert

witness misstated something or changed its

rnird 1 so did some of the government I s expert

wi tnesses misstate something that then had to

be co-ected So did the brief that said

that took the word and and changed it to

Or witr regard to what Justice Kennedy hadI

written So I dont think that that in and of

itself has any significarce wi th regard to the

credibility of a witness tihen we are talking

abcu lGVJ fa this land is from a navigable

water counsel has mentioned that it S 2600I I

feet middotrhich is about half a mile or 4200

feet which is close to a mile -- thats not

to reac-t a navigabe water Let us be clear

That is to reach something that is not

necessarily an intermittent area4 EPA

stipulated l the stipulations dated

NEAL R GROSS COURT AEPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

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Septewer 8th 03 that the water body

depicted and ]i5 is nurrbers 37 and 38 that

the water bodies depicted as these drainage

ditches on the site are depicted by the USGS

topa rEap at the 3allary Hill (Phonetic)

quadrangle as a broken blue line and that a

broken bae line denotes an irtermi ttent

stream These are intermittent streams ard as

Justice Sheehan has correctly noted Judge

Scalia says n mary circ1JIstarces that

intermittent streams are not jurisdictional

waters of the U S HmAever if we tun to irlhat

Custice Kennedy says thats rhece we kind of

get into the eitheror what we also find

there is a great discussion by Justice Kennedy

loiClself on 1e Ccrps definition of a

tributary Counsel was referring to the

drainage ditches as t-ibutaries ard Justice

Kennedy makes it c~ear that the corps

definition of tributary that was in effect at

tr~e time this decision was -rritter middotJsing he

high watermark was not appropriate I and would

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

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lead in fact to too broad a definition of what

was jurisdictional i~ and of itsef under the

Clean Water Act And theres we dont have

time to read it all but Im sure youve

probably ead it more tirres t~an have

aryay iled also jtst lke to mention tha

qui te frankly the evidence that has been

introduced in this case is the type of

evidence the Cour was r~opng would not be

Csedo prove jurisdictior on such an

important issue and that is its speculative

Its not -- were not arguing that wetlands

arent irrportart J we arent arguing that

wetlands aralt valuabe anc you know in

1990 wed say regulate because we had the

legal authority to do so This again is one

of tlese cases t1at sirrply wishing that 1_e

Q C d h dfe I~upreree o~r~ naa sal some ~~g 1 ~eren~ y

does not make it so This is what the Court

said -- thats the final word on the mater

whatever we decide ~t is bu it S tre firai

word and we c~~t change that regardless ofl

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRA-SCRIBERS

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how mportant or ho wrong someone may think

that it auld be To other quick points to

mention and that is EPA knew about this work

that was going on in February of 1999 and

that is in Jeff Lapps testimony tn Volume 1

page 167 through 169 so EA did kno Most of

t~e woyk was completed by Aprii or May of that

year before EPA every CaIne out to the site

and it wasnt until 2000 chat a notice of

violation was issued

JUDGE SHEEHamp1 So why does that

matte- That is an enforcement choice EPA makes

every day of the week and its not part of

the record i~ has nothing to do with whether

or not the Kennedy or Scalia or any other test

was met It really doesnt seem to bear on the

legal issues here

11S vIILCHER Fair enough For

purpose of ~his arg~~e~tl for t~e pur~ose of

today youre probaDly right J-luge But i~

does matcer if were talking about typical

practice of EPA and while Im well aware that

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202) 234middot4433 WASHINGTON DC 20005middot3701 wwwooalrgrO$$oom

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theres no requirement to take an enforcemer-t

action in a1ything less trar this period of

statute of limitations if in fact this was as

egregious and as violative and as problematic

as counsel appears to make it seem then EPA

did have every opportlli~ity to stOy that and

in ITany many cases vlhen EP1 sees a clear

violation of the law I they simply issues a

cease and desist order and in a case like

Rapanos in the Rapacos case you have people

who are going out anc taking action and

violating the wetlands law after theyve

received many state and federal cease and

desis orders so the facts of this case are

so di==ere~t from the facts of tha~ case Here

we have someone who was trying to comply with

the law as it was written at the time in my

view he was complying with the law as it was

wri ten at tlat time actG the fact tha EPA

didnt like ~he way the law was written and

what it said and what the courts were

deciding does not give hem authority to come

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

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in and regulate after the fact

JUDGE WOLGAST Counsel thank you

youre Olt of if you could make your

final point n just r~e next thirty secords J

I think you saie you had two I may be

mistaken

MS WILCHER Thank you Well we

are talkirg about jurisdictio1 I do think

tha tte overall =-ssJe of equity cotes i1to

play Ar~d knowing -- even krowing what the

jurisdiction was at the time of the activities

undertaken is really kind of an unc I Qar

matter Were still struggling with what

j Clrisdict iOI is Re9rettably toat s always

been t~e problem with this program

problem Igtli th this progral7l is that Corgress did

not give us clear direction and clear guidance

to either EPA or to the Boyds or to anyone

else in the regulative corrmlUnity and I t-hink

that s a factor certainly that the court Iblil

consider ard should corsder I when making a

decision on issues of liability and in this

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND tRANSCRIBERS

~323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW i202 234-4433 WASHINGTON DC roooS-3701 WWWlI$alrgmssOOffl

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case we would ask that you do so Thank you

J1DGE voLGAST Thank YOJ Cours

thank yOJ for your arguUent and the case is

now submitted

MS DURR All rise Session of the

Environmenta Appeals Board nmv stands

adjourned

(Whereupon the above-entitled

matter was concluded at 11 16 am)

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON DC 20005-3701 wwwnealrgrossoom

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Page 81

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Page 82

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Page 83

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CERTIFICATE

This lS to certify tha~ ~he foregoi~g transcript

in the matter of Snith Farm 3nterprises ILC

Hon Anna Wolgast E-wironmenta Appeals Judge

Date Jaly 20 2010

Flace Washingson DC

represens the ful and complete proceedings of the

aforementio1cd marter as reported and reduced to

typewriting

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCR8ERS

1323 rOOE iSLAND AVE_ NW (202 234-4433 WASHtGON DC 20005-3701 fNWnnalrqft)6Scom

Page 13: BEFORE THE ENVIRONMENTAL APPEALS BOARD IN ... By...MS. DURR: Environmental Appeals Board of the U~ited States Environmental Protec~ion Agency is now in session for oral argument, in

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was such a C oILleci en YOJ f re speakirg very

theoretically Id like if you could to get

specific about what you think the failu~es are

i~ the governments case on the Kennedy test

MS ~VIrJCHER Yes but if you -shy

+_--ne if you look at the gover1TIleuroEt s

argument one of their lengthy arguments is

about the impact 0 denitrification that

VJetlands provide an important deni trification

iss~eJ pointing out that the Chesapeake Bay

tas too rruch nityogen and tbat its important

to keep that out They talk about the fact

that n~toger coues from atrrosphe-ic

deposition They talk about the fact that

microbes in the soil vi22 break hat rtroger

down and then they talk about that once the

nitrogen is broken dmvr it ll be taken up by

the breeze and i If~ay even be given off again

into -- into the air

JDGE STEIN ltJasn f t there

plentiful testimony by government witnesses

and the companys witnesses as to what was

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1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON DC 20005middot3701 wwwnoalrgrossCCtn

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occurr~ng specifically at this site I mean

I think the challenge for the compa~y i~ this

appeal 8 that there were credibili ty findings

Chat tiere made by the ALJ as to some of the

testimony by respondents by the companys

wi tnesses and given the Board f 5 standard forJ

crecibility determinations where the 30ard

you knovl historically ove many mar~y years

gives great weight to an ALJ~s finding how is

it ha t we can ove look he ALJ S credibi lity

determinations in the face of countervai~ing

evidence ~hat the ALJ found ~o be credible

(S WILCHER Judge Stel if I

can finish Judge Sheehans question I III ge

right back 0 you on that You were wanting

some specifics and an example of what the

government tried to prove in its case By

go~ng through this whole denitrification

process they nake ~o distinction betwee~ the

value that ris particalar wetlald is making

or any paricular wetland is making I to the

denitrification 0 the Chesapeake Bay

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202) 2344433 WASHINGTON DC 20005middot3701 WWN11w1rgtOSsoom

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JUDGE SHEEHAN But the Kennedy

tea says that if wetlands aloLe or in

combination with other wetlands have that

kind of effect

115 WILCHER Wetlands alone or in

corrbinato1 with otrer wetlands or in

combination lith the uplands the arguments

~ha t tbey ace laking wOClld apply equally to

uplands and as the court noted in the Rapanos

decision applying some of these tests as the

government histori cally has applied them to

say that they are jurisdictional sirrply

because hey have value and may be somewhat

miles aay hut may have some connection or

some val~e ~i~es away being speculative in

nature does rot cause it to be

jurisdictional and it sa~d i~ so the en~ire

United States would be considered regulated

llilder tbe Clear~ ater Act

JUDGE SHEEHAN Theres ~~ theres

one and cot to get in the vay of Judge

Steins question but Qne of the exhibitsr

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1323 RHOOE ISLAND AVE NW WASHINGTON DC 20005-3701 wwwnea~r0S3com

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Remand Exhibit 937 shows a very honeycombed

tissue through the Srith Farm weta1ds going

ou~ to the two rivers and then to the bay I~

looks sure _ surely to me it looks from this

exhibit and otes as if tl1e wetlands are very

proximate to and affect directly the waters

below Car you address that

KS WILCE2R I wil Those naps

do not show any actual measurable connection

nor do they show a contir1oJS surface

conE6ction r~avigable vrates

JUDGE SHEEHAN Why does it have to

be a surface connection tilly car_ t it be stbshy

surface if theres a hydrological link

MS WILCHER But theres ~o

showir~g of a silD-surface hydroogica liak

either Theres a total lack of evidence of

probative dence i~ th~s case to actualy

tie that paricu=-ar vletland Co a rcavigable

water which by the way you would have to gor

fcom tha wetland to a drair~age ditcr~ anc

went out there and traipsed down the site

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1323 RHODE ISlAND AVE 0W (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON DC 200JS3701 wwwnealrgrooscom

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before I came here to talk to you about this

but youd have to go fr~~ that -- b~t this ~s

all en the record -- YOlld have to go fron

that area that might be-- that part of it that

might be considered a we~land~ through

drainage di tches t1at are only inerrrit ert

in nature and t1e evidef~ce is clear that

theYre only intermittent in nature including

the USGS blue line dotted lines and then they

would have to go from tlere to Bailey Creek

non- navigable to Drurr Point Creek

non-navigable] then to tributaries of the

westeGl branch of the Elizabeth River I which

is t~e f rst tne you I d hi a ~avigable wate

If go in the opposite

direction they would have to go from drainage

ditches to Quake~ Neck Creek to ~eans Bra~ch

which are tributaries 0 tne ravigable water

the Nansemond River 14d so there there is

no proof that there is a connection

Things could lave been done Tne-e

cOmiddotJld have been dye raclgs there cOlld have

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202 234middot4433 WASHINGTON DC 20005-3701 wwwraargrossoom

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been a~l kinds of evidence hey could have

taken samples they could have done

quantitative analysis There is no chemical

evidence there is no physical evidence there

is no biological evidence that connecs this

to a navigable water f and therein lies the

problem

JJDGE TO~GAST Justa if I

could follow up on that before we get back to

cred~bility iss~es

MS HLCHER Okay

JUDGE WOLGAST Are you saying that

the fact they floTlI throJgh ditches is a

jurisdictional problem

MS 1tILCHER Not particularly

JUXE vIOLGASI And the1 get ~ ing

back to the testimony that Judge Sheehan was

referring to where JIdge Morar was referring

to the testimony of Mr Rhodes and Mr Martin

that the property provides flood storage flow

moderaion carbOIl sequestration vlater

purification denitrification what I want to

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undsystard aboJt your argument 1s are these

aspects insufficient or would they be

sufficient if in your mind there was more

evidence of the connection of these attributes

to the Nansemond or Elizabeth Rivers

MS iILCHER EPA -- the govenment

cant simply say that wetlands are valuable

because they are-- help prevent flooding and

not show that they would help prevent flooding

in this particular case and that it would

significantly help prevent flooding in t~is

partcular case lrJha ttey have done toe

Drie is to siIply lay down he well-knoJl

attributes a~d valuable functions and values

of wetlands and said therefore this is

having a significant effect on navigable

~ivers Theye is not a co~~ection they have

lot snoltm by a1y credible evidence cause and

effect of any sigrifcant iIEpact tpon thef

navigable rivers

JUDGE SHEEHAN But you make

again a very theoretical argument about the

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fact Chat the goverruuent just argues wetlands

fgelerally but werer t government wi tnesses

crawling allover this property mul iple

times testify~ng at great lengtl lots of

exhibits aerials historc maps and

everythi~g else to show in this case fo~ this

property there was trat link Its hard to

believe with all that 11Bssive Estimony and

getting to ~he credibility issue that he

governrrent doesn~t have a pretty solid case

rat hat nexus sat) sfyilg the Kennedy test

exists

MS WILCHER It is hard to

believe I totally agree It is hard to

believe Tle governmert has had unfettered

aCCess to this property for over a decade and

have failed 0 develop flmr drainage elements

they cant show how illuch flows off the site

they cant show vhat type of sediment runoff

might have occurred at ~he site ~hey ca~tt

show what type of water retention is teld Jy

the site t~ey have been unable to show any

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ecoogical cC1nection 1tith regard to wildlife

there was a Woodcock seen on the site There

is absolutely -- and its amazing to me hat

tr~ere is a void

JUDGE STEIN But isnt the test a

nexus a significant nexus not this

sJbstantial inpacts est that I hear wove]

through some of your statements and T dont

-- when I go back and I look at the Kennedy

opinion you knot] and some of he hings t1at

are cited I dont necessarily see that that

test requires the level of proof that youre

stggesing is reqJired ny hat test So

perhaps you could explain to me based on the

Kennedy opinion how you get from there to the

level of proof Lhat you re a5~ing for f just to

establish jurisdiction

MS WILCHER Certainly

JUDGE STEIN I mean I we re not

here to determire you know penalty or

anything else were here just to figure out

if youre even i~ tbe door

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MS IILCHER Yes understand

Ie 1 1 what Justice Kennedy said was to talk

abmlt he fJay the Corps nac typically

regulated wetlalds and then to say absent

more speciic regulations however the Corps

must establish a significant nexus on a case

by case bBSS wler it seeks to regulate

wetlands based on adjacency to non-navigable

tributaries and then it goes on to say given

the potential over breath of the Corps yen s

regulations this showing is necessary to

avoid unreasoDable applications of the

statute

The justice wrote I no~ just a

~exus if the COurt had only said there has to

be a nexus then o~e would have a different

burden of proof in this case the court said

a significant nexus and we have to assnne

that a significant nexus is meaningful that

those words mean SOIEethi1g So theres a -- at

least a two-step process One to show that

theres a nexus and the other is to show that

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its significant and that is what the record

is devoid 0 in this particular case

JUDGE SlEIN But its not a

significa1t impact its a significant nexus

MS iILCHER Thats right a

significant nexus And the sigrificart rexus

must -- and if YOu read through the rest of

the case it talks abolt hm -- that in order

to regulate land as water there must be some

type of impact on the water

JUDGE SHEEHAN Justice Kennedy

also uses a phrase that think is pertinent

here r he says that the how -- how the proof is

determined has to be done in a practical way

ard i almost sounds as if what you I re

requiing is that the governrrent set up flow

meers or pour a vial of discharge into a

ditch and see if it eventually ends up in the

Chesapeake or do something on a very

impractical scale to prove ~he connectio~

MS WILCHER You know this is a

really important issue The governrrent has to

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do sOIething oJer than to make allegations r

especially in a case where youpoundre dealing with

constitutional issues such as privae property

rights and how one car jse his own property

or hers and in this case I there are lots of

things tha~ EPA historically has done for

ypcal NPDES cases But when you before he

Board on a NPDES case theres at least some

measure If they had had pictures that there

las a plurne comir_g off of this wetlar~d if

theyd done any flow calculations if theyd

had any physical chemical biological

evidence of a nexJS and a signiican- nexus to

the navigable waters which again( are not the

ditches they are the ditches that flow to the

creek that flow 0 the creek that flow 0 the

navigable waters j then it would be a different

case but that is not what has happened in

this case

JUDGE IJOLGAST Well as you say

the goverIl1lent obviously has the burden of

proof i~ a~ eLfo~cerne~t case l but is this the

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same type of evidence that you thirk a

_a~Qowne~ should Lndertake I mean obviouslY

they have the burden to obtain a permit where

there is potential jurisdiction

I~S ~JILCaER Btt if the person

doesnt obtain a permit ~~ and the government

thinks that theyre i~ error again the

government always has the burden of proof

JUDGE vJOLGAST Right but J 1m

talking about getting a -- yOJ know starding

in the landowners shoes before weve ever

gotten to an enforceme1t case it -- it I

mean I ~h~nk theres some iSS48 with getting

back to the Supreme Court case that one of

he things that were concerned about - at

least lJustice Scalia pointed to was how much

evidence time money it takes to vJOrk

thro~gh ~h~s process and it sou~ds like the

yeLl know r the advocacy here is that there

should be more not less

)15 ~JLC1ER There stou1d be

something dore by the government in thi s

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regayd to actually prove a nexus and a

sgnificant nexus ard in this ease I canr

assuye you Judge Wolgast that the l~downer

has go~e above and beyond the oall of duty

going to the Corps time after ti~e having the

Corps ou to tr~e site and having spent talk

about the time and money and investmert having

his case as understand it having spent

over $800 000 in litiga~ion costs to try to

pr-otect what was legal at tl~e time that it was

aone and so -- so there is a burden

The governme1t has the burden aid

in this case in this par~icular case they

failed to meel it I don I t know why I haven [t

been involved that lor~g ~ would speculate

tl1at by the time he Rapanos case cane along

it V~as jlSt too hard to go back and find the

type of probative evidence that would carry

the cay_

I do not necessaily thirk that

its an impossible tas~ There have been ot~er

cases that ve reviewed aihere the goverrUent

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has irtroduced evidence of the poundows tr~e

amount of drainage that has occurred how much

water might be taken up by a wetland area$ but

none of that was done in thi s particular case

and again we can only speculated why that

was the case

JDDGE STIN How does tr_s S~xth

Circuit decision in the Cundl f f matter bear on

your view that the -- you need some sort of

laboratocy araysis to prove h~s7

MS ~VILCHER in that

particular easel you dont have as I ~ecall

the -- the disarce roIT a navigable waer

tha t we have here [ and I think the farther you

are away from a navigable water the harder it

is 0 prove tha~ theres any impact on that

navigable water and in this -- again in this

case they are far away from a navigable

water and I think toe reaSC1 tha~ we don

see the p=oof is because its not there itS

not developable and that is why it is not

Cere Did yOl wart De to ~~

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JUDGE STEIN I do wact you to get

the credibility question

MS bull WILCHER I dian t t want to

forget your - shy

JUDGE STEIN No while we we~e on

this topic why cor t t yOJ addres s the

credibility question

MS vILCHER I think its an

important question IC t S a real important

question and that is simply that s even though

the regtllatior~s do provide that typicaily when

the ALJ hears the witnesses and makes

determinations 0 ~~eir credib~~ity that

typically this Board will defer to that

However in this case a carefctl review of the

record shows that the ALJs just got it wrong

and it is within this Boards prerogative to

look at the -- look at t1e factors tha

that the ALJs used in making their

deterninatior and make a judgreJt aboJt

wl1ether those factors are sufficient

A couple of examples There was a

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mar who had Iived OT the farm for h~rty years

who testified that he I d walked over the farm

for thir~y years and testified that in fact

Ithe streams J or the drainage di tches were

intermittent in nature and did not carry water

I - 1 h d - a11 th e trre bull e __ t e JU ge ~n tHe QeClS10n

said well I think hes a nice man I think

hes beholden to the Smi ths f and he was just

Ollt or a wa so totally just discounted his

testimony saying he WBS just out on a walkJ

as if that meant t~at somebodywQuldnt no~ice

DGE ~vOGAST ~ Are yot saying

though that it would have to carry water all

tre time

MS vHLCHER No no But but

it f s clearly -- is Eot a navigable water lor

it is adjacent nor is the wetland adjacent to

a navigable water in this case It flows

anything t~at =lows opound= of t~at a~ea that has

been considered to be wetland by the

goverr-Uent flows -rxough drainage ditches

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that are only intermittent in nature and

~herefore are ~ot co~sidered to be navigable

watsYs clea~ly urder the Rapanos decison

JUDGE SHEEHAN But if the man

walking the land said that they were

intermittent and youre saying intermittent

doesnt matter

I~S IgtlILCHER Were saying that -shy

Judge Cha~eski as I recall said tha~ there

was a c01tinuOU5 flow of 5088 kind isnt that

-- d~~lt J~dge Char~eski say that

WOLGAST lrJell Justice

Scalia said that even after that -shy

HS WILCHER Right right

JUDGE WOLGASl That that

seasonal flow could establish jurisdiction

~nder the pluralitoes test

148 t-JILCEER BJt there s not beenj

seascnal flow established -=-n this case Yot

have somebody going out there en particular

days after these ditches have been dug which

we all know alter the flow in drainage after

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the eLi tches are dug ftJaer goes to the lowest

level and so theres going to be more water

draining OU= of there t~a~ ~here would have

been in 1998 and 1999 and that -- that is

clear ~tat ~tere is no ev~de~ce ac the time

this was done they were -- they were anything

but inerYlitten and here l s no j1risdictiola1

connection that they have proven to date

JUDGE ~JOLGAST And what do you

think they would have had to have shown to

show seasonal flow

MS ~IILCHER Well they could

have done something more than go out there

nine times over tbe course of a year rrhey

could have had aerial photographs taken Ihey

cod have -- weil first yOl have the uSGS -shy

you have the USGS maps as showing its

inteYrnittent and theres lierally no

testimony en the record right now to show that

theyre anything but interrrdtent Ot-her than

to say that if somebody goes out there ~ine

Cimes and looks at the flow and sees water

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then -- agair~1 keeping ir mind this was years

atel 1_8 dainage d=- tches tver-e dtg ha t were

channeling more water into the old one through

seven drainage areas there B nothing tof

establish what was the~e at ~he time in 1998

a~d 1999

JUDGE VlOLG~rST And I think

isnt this what courts are struggling with in

the sense that its -- its one thing to say

~ts ~~ter~itte~tf b~t is that good enough I

mean I dont you have to figure out just how

much flow in you know what period of time

or the idea that -- I dont -- if someoae

says t~at its intermitte~t Irr not sure that

means its ir~ or out without further evidence

MS WILCHER Right Well that

shows really the that shows arguably a

cQnYlecion Bu how rrlcr =ow is going through

there whether sediment loading is going

through there whether theres an ecological

connection through there all these whethers

lead to whether t~e~e is a sig~ificant nex~s

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to a navigable water and if you look at some

of the other cases ~here has been that kiLd of

information introduced and in this case there

is none

JUDGE vJOLG1ST hhat case are you

thinking of

MS vJILCiER I thirki1g maybe

t was the Precon case ir - - in the Eastern

District of Virginia Its on appeal in the

Fourth Circuit I may r~ve been ~hat BJt

I 11 be happy to provide some cases -- a case

or cases later on that show the type of

evidence that tas been introdJced because I

remember reading about them and cant think of

the name right now

TlDGE SHEEIiAN I Vant to go back

for a moment to Judge Stein J s question about

credibility

gtIS CLCHER YOS

JUDGE SHEEHAN So ALJ Moran sat

through days and days of testimony on the

bench a lot of pecple ~n ~~at witness chair

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Hes there hes on he scere hes

~nterpreting the way the witnesses speak and

their basic credibility which you can only do

face to face in that way Wha~ is it about

what happened there that causes you to think

theres sOne way or some reason for as not to

credit the typ~cal deferehce we would extend

There must be some exception here that we ~eed

0 know about for that to happen

MS WLCHER tAJel1 r ard there are

a few facts that I think would be relevant to

your consideration in that case In the first

instance some of these wi~nesses that the ALJ

deter~ined were not credible --Jere stipJlated

as being expert vtitnesses and hat shows at

least sorre level of credibility in the mind of

the government w th regaro to whetJ~er they

were experts in the field

Second some of the criticisms

in one case a criticism that an ALJ made of an

expert wi tness was that he had not beer~ 0 the

site often enocgh yet vith one of the

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gover~ors -~ goverG~entls expert witnesses

that person had been to the site less times

t1an t1e Srith Farms expert witress A1C SO

there is a confounding sense that in this

particular case for whatever reason if the

experts agreed ~ th r~e goverr_rne1t f they were

credible and that if they di~~t they were

not

It just seems highly unlikely that

every single witness iltroduced by Smith

Far~s and Ive had the pleasure of working

wi th Mr Boyd and it lS just I think

statistically urEkely that one could End

that many unmiddotmiddotmiddotcredible witnesses and in thisf

case I do not believe that they were not

credib2e I believe they were as credible ald

as I mentioned in some cases were stipulated

in beirg expert w~t~esses ~~

JUDGE SHEEHAN So you didnt

believe they were

HS WICHER I did not bel ieve

they were not credible so I believed that

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they were credible And -- and it is sOIEewhat

confoundirg other than to say that the

closest thing that I could figure out was that

if hey supported t~e governments viev tey

were credible and if they did not support the

governments Vlew I they were not

CJDGE trrOGAST But dien f t Judge

Moran find that -- and to generalize ---- that

the witnesses failed to establish that to the

exent t1ere were weta1ds they -lere isolated

by on-hydric soil lasnt that a central part

of his credibility determination

MS ~vILCHER Well trat S O1e of

the findings that Judge Moran made but in

this paricular case keep in mind its not

Smi Parms tha-c has 0 show that there is a

break or a barrier -- its the government who

has to show that the~e is a con~ection

JUDGE liOLGAST Of

understand Right

HS IIILCHER So theres cerainly

pockets of non-hyd~ic soil in tte area and

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for SOle reaSCl EPA _ ar~d again this is just

ki~d of amazing to me

spent this long on that EPA did not go out

there and do a typical delneaion of the

site and this is something that is cypically

done Its amazing that EPA did not issue a

cease and desist order as soon as t~ey ~~ew

abouc it There are many things that to me

are amazing about this case that quite

frarky I are he easor that I came nere to

argue it Because lIm a strong believer in

protecting the Clean Water Act and in

protec~ing lteta-ds and you mayor may lOot

know from my history I I bear a lot of scars

from having trIown myself in the body of

wetlands protection bac~ in the days ana I

still believe its an important thing to do

But I also believe its important to follow

~~e rule of law and ~n chis case Mr Boyd

made every effort to follow the rule of law

and I bel ieve he did and when it did not work

out tte way that EPA wanted the law to be

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this enforcement action came forward at a

time -- and had they intervened early on i~

t~is case they cou~d have stopped They knew

months before the work was cOITpleted -- hey

knew months before the work was completed that

there was ditching and draining going on

t~ere and trey did no move in quickly to try

to resolve that case ar~d they could have -shy

they could have stopped most of the so called

harm that they are now alleging but chose not

to do so ~~ey dd ~ot do a deineaLion they

did not inroduce proof that this particular

part of property has a significant nexus to

jurisdictional waters of the United States to

a navigable water of the United States I and

thats the reason I~ he~e

JJDGE VJOLGASI I see your time is

expired if theres no other questions

MS WILCHER Thank you

MS S~J~ET~ Good morning You=

Honors My name is Stefania Shaliat and I

represent Region III in this matter

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specifically the complainants who are the

division directors for the Environmental

Assessment a1d Irr~ovation Divisio1 and he

vater Protection Division I at EPA Regio11 III

With me at counsel table Id like to

i~troduce DO1la Carner-Tal f who is regulatory

co-msel for the Nc-folk District Army Corps of

Engineers and Karen ~lendelowskl gt who is with

the office of general cour~sel and also we

have a disirglshed g1e8 1$ d lke to

introd~ce -- si~~ing behind me is Dr Dennis

Whigham with the Smithsonian Environmental

Resea=cr Cente- Your Honors responders have

do~e ~~ if I ca~ get in a couple points -- a

good job of obfuscating what are really very I

very simple facts here The simple facts are

hat these are tllelands perfouuiq docurrenced

functions that are delivered to tributaries

These wetlands are adj acent physically

trose trib-ltaries f ard those

tr lbtacies flow to traditiorally navigable

waters to the West 2600 feet away to the

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East 4200 feet away In other words the are

wetlands adjacent to tributaries that low

waki1g clstance to tr-adi ional1y navigable

waters These Vetlfu1ds were jurisdictional

under SWANCC as respondent conceded in Clean

~later Act Appeal mmber 05-05 when respondent

reseved argll1snt on jtrisdicto1 but chose

not to raise it un~il there was a change in

case law They continue to be jurisdictional

under any standard enunciated by he Supreme

Court in Rap~~os The qJan~u~ of proof offeree

by the complaina1ts i1 this matter not only

exceeds preponderance of the evidence it

exceeds any quantum of proof required by

Rapanos In fact t far exceeds it Another

thirg that is obscured in the ar9J11ent here by

the respondents is that up until 2007

respondents had a different set of expert

witnesses It las tlose expert witresses that

coroplainalts stipulated 1heir expertise was

in wetlands identification and the connection

of wetlands to waters of the uniced States

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Ihose witnesses largely agee with

complainac1t I s version of the facts on the

ground ae-d i wasnt until 2007 when

respondents hired a new set of expert

witnesses that any real dispute arose about

what exactly was going on in the site There

was dispute about ithat hat nean f but not

exacly what the physical characteristics of

t21e si te ere

J1DGE WOLGAST Counsel coud you

address Ms wilchers points that while there

may be flow moderation carbon sequestration

there may be some evidence that the government

hasnt shmlTI a nexus between those

characterist~cs and the ~avigable waters

vIS SHAME Sure First of alI

the evi6erce of Je fuYlctions beirg performed

on this S1 te is not speculative There are

photo after photo and testimony after

testimony the governments evidence is based

or established scientific literature that

identifies something called field indicators

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-- physical characteristcs on the ground -shy

that when identified correlate to a specific

functi~n being formed by the wetland In this

case there are three Tr~e first was fow

noderaiou and one of the physical

characteristics thez-e would be such things as

ponding you see a lot of later being

captured in low levels depressional levels

withir the wetland Tle record conta1s dozens

of photos of that The secord is

denitrification and that is the microbes

llptaking nitrogen in the soil That indicator

is something called modelirg i1 he soil It sI

a red spotch Essentially it IEeans that iron

is there That evidence comes not only from

the complainants but if one were to reviel

the soi 18 expert froIT respordent Dr Parkers

O~ I-fr arlter f s firs expe~t repo-t ir

20C3 he describes modeling in his sails The

third is primary production That is the1

contribution of a food source Taking

transforming organics that a2e in the _- in

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nature into a food source in water that then

tralsports that food source dowYlsream to

higher trophic organisms The best evidence of

that actually comes from one of respondents

experts Dr Cahoot 1110 photographed it

leaving the site I cant find the photo at

the marneYlt f blt I 11 describe what he says

Foaing a he confluence of the ditch

leaving the property with ditches along the

property boundary near the railroad This foam

vias also sampled and examined microscopically

--- it contained primary plant debris some

peller ald rllnero-lS sma oil droplets These

oil droplets in my opinion were probably

plant oils derived froI decomposition of the

organic matter in this area That description

correlates perfectly with the description in

the testimony in tZ1e remand hearng about what

primary production s the transport of

particulate and dissolved organics downstream

as a food sOJce So the -Jse 0 the -- t~1e

functions this case are not speculative

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theyre clearly being per-formed theyre

clearly being cocC1ented as beir~g perforrred on

this wetland Theres also evidence of the

hydrologic connection between this wetland

the ibuaries and the downst-eam

trad~tionally r~avigable waers Again that

comes both frOIE complainant ~ s experts as well

as some of respondents experts one of

respondent I s experts described tr_at hydrologic

co~nectio3 as such He descrbed the wetland

as a table tcp on which somebody pours water

the water comes off of that table top into

the ditches and then tansports down to the

taditional1y navigable waers The sane

expert lgtIr Wolf also agreed that the

wetlands on the site were in fact

hydrologically conYlected to the di tches wr~ich

forrr tributaries and lJlere n fact adjacs1t to

them So we also have fUTIction ard we have

transport Now with respect to Ms Wilchers

corrment -shy

JUJGE WOLGAS~ is YoDr

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posi tion on the type of evidence that you

need to show nexus of

characteristics you see on site to the

navigable waters

gt1S SHAtvET My positio1 is tha we

met it exactly and I would refer you to

Justice Kennedys opinion Justice Kenledy

ide~tified the type of functions that he would

consider to form a significant nexus

traditional navigable waters and those are

p~ecisely the functions that were identified

on this site Specifically Justice Ker-nedy

refers to slowirg COt-C of surface runoff r

filtration and purification -- that would be

in on 547 US 773 to 75 He sta~es with respect

to weta1ds f the rationale for the Cleal ~fater

Act regulation is as the Corps as recognized

that vetlands can perforrl cri tica2 functioES

re2-ated to the integrity of other waters

functions such as pollutant trapping -- in

other words l denirifcatior~ -- flood control

flow moderation and ruriOff storage

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Ther-efore the types of functions that we

docrraented as beng performed or this site are

precisely the ypes of unctiors tha Jusice

Ken1edy ide1tified J in his opinion as the

type of functions that form a significant

nexus

JUDGE SHEEHAN In in your

brief on page 46 you say that the Kennedy

Test requiEs weta1ds cont-ibutions to the

physical c1emical or biologic in-egrity of

doOrIlstream waters -- is it nor or Hand Your

brief says or

MS SHAMET The brief says II or -shy

JUDGE SHEEHAN Because if it can

De just one of those -shy

SHA4ET I believe Justice

Kennedy did use and however it is c2ear

that he does not require a function to

contribute to all ~hree factors and chats

clear from the function he identifies

JUDGE SHEEHAN Then why did he say

and

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MS SHAMET I think he said and II

but he had a comraa and a1d he was -eferring

to a list of examples rather than a standard

i1ith respect to Ms Wilchers cormnent that we

dont have any photographs of pltLnes as I

indicatedf one were to trt 0 R Ex 28 f

which llnfortunatey I can f find right now I

ltlhich is Respondent 1 s Exhibit 28 from the

first hearing in 2003 Dr Cahoon provides a

picture of that plume himself I would also

point out that with respect to

denitriication one wouldnt expect to see a

pInrr -- thats the exact point its to hold

Che nitrogen on the wetland -lot send it

downstream

JUDGE STEIN How is the Rapanos

significant nexus test d_fferent if at all

=rom the nexus i~ Rivervew Rverside

Bayview

MS SHAMEl Riverside Bayvie

assumed a nexus based upon adjacencYi in this

case lJustice Kennedy has asked that we

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actually go forward and establish that the

nexus exists rather than simply assuming itI

based On adjacency

JUDGE SHEEHamp~ on page 41 of your

brief you quote some of the tesciroo1Y of the

first ALJ hearing I which sounds a lit~le more

entative to me tha1 youre souidir_g today

about the substa1tial nexus test being met

The brief~ at page 41 reads that these

wetlands are more likely to perform

denitrification more likely to allow for

suspended settlements -- sediments to settle

out~ more likely to support a different suite

of wildlife species that to me is

lar-guage ~rats ~ot qui~e as powerful as

saying there is a substantial nexus met here

that just sounds -- can yo~ address what seems

to be more diffident language in your brief

than what youre articulating today

MS SHAMET Well as Your Honor

pointed out T the language that you pointed to

in the brief is from the 2003 hearing before

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tr~e Rapanos case As the Board is avlare J he

EPP~ agreed and argued that the evidence to

satisfy Rapanos had not been fl11y developed

as of 2003 and this precisely why we

requested a remand

JUDGE SHEEHAN But youre cit i ng

it here filed long after Rapanos as if its

still your position

MS SHAME~ I cited a lot of other

evidence as lJell Your Honor incLuding the

testimory of Mr Rhodes he testi~cny of Dr

~fhigham and the testimony the f1Tther

estimony of Hr Mart So while that is a

piece of evidence it is certainly not the

only evidence cited in our brief

JUDGE WOLGAS~ ~o go back to the

point you were making earlier about how the -shy

in essence the three-part test is the same

type of evidence yo~ would look to to

establish sign~ficant nexus ard Justice

Kernedy did seer to speak to hat saying much

the sarre evidence I referring to tre Corps ssect

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delineation manual type evidence should

P8nnit the establishment of a significant

nexus witr navigable wates

particularly if supplemented by further

ev~dence abou~ the significance of the

tributaries to which the wetlands are

cO11ected How does the gove-nment interpret

the latter part of that quote

MS SILllltlECmiddot I think that the

government needs to show and has shown in

this case that there is an ability of those

trihttayies Co conect the wetlands to a

traditionally navigable water in such a way

that the poundtnctions are delivered In this case

we have certainly shown the hydrologic

cO1nect=-o1 some of respondents expe-ts have

agreed with us that that connection exists and

tha there is sufic8Ylt ~hat there is

water exchange there and weve also shown

that heres proxirrity here again these are

walking distance to traditionally navigable

waters this is not the Rapanos case where it

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traveled 32 miles So we think we have met

that burden here by sho~Jing the hydrologic

connection and showing that these tributaries

are capable of delivering the function With

respect to cr-edibi=-ity and he points that

Your HOlors asked of AS Wilcher I would just

point out tha~ lTudge lvlorans credibility

determination was based on demeanor and also

on the facts of this case An important fact

to note for insta11ce is in the firstF

r~earing in 2003 respondent I s soils exper

who laid a g=id fOJnc 53 ou 55 sarnples

hydric The only two that were non-hydric had

JUDGE STEIN I couldnt hear you

MS SHApoundT Had 53 Oelt of 55 soil

sa~ples he identified as hydric in the site

soEs or ei ther side In the secord heaocilg

Dr Pierce testified that there was

essentially non-hydric soils everywhere And

on cross-examination he was asked didn t youI

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find any hydric soils and he said oc yeah

I found them I just didnt click on my GS

locator and ider~tify where they were and I

just didn It report them He only reported the

non-hydric soEs That is the kind of thing

that happened that caused Jtdge l-loran 0 find

a lack of c-edibility vvlth respect to 9r

Straw Dr Straws expert report disc1ssed

undulations in the landscape that he

interpreted to mean ere were no wetlands

tlere On the sand he conceded trat there

were no u1dulaions on tr~e landscape -- he had

mis~nterpreted the aeria= photo More

importantly he conceded ~hat he knew about

ha t erroy before the hearing and leverf

corrected it until cross-exa~ination Judge

Moran had ample basis for finding no

credibility on those witnesses

JUDGE SEIN Is it your view tha~

the Board has no authority to overrale an

ALJs credibility determination

MS SHAl-1ET No YOJr Honor the

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Board reviews he case de novo lffuile the

Board certainly defer to the ALJ r s credibili ty

determination what I run saying that in this

case t~ere is no basis for overturn~~g it

JUDGE STEIl If we were to

overturn it -- a credibility determination

what kinds of factors r it your view s1ould 18

be taking into aCCo4nt

MS S~~~ET I would think you

oelld be looking to see whether or not the ALJ

has a rational basis oh gosh I hate to use

legal standards like that -- but some sort of

bass or hich he based his credibiliy

deerrtination that he explained why there was

a lack of credibility and I think in this

case he did so amply

JUDGE SHEEHAJ If Ms v~i 1 cher S

correct characterizing the way testimony

cedibclity went i soanced almost like a

hundred percent credit to government

witnesses and practically zero to

respondens witnesses f tratg acctrate

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jus stipulat-=-ng 0 trat assumption - - if

t~atfs accu~ate would that be a basis fer not

allcwing deerence to Jdge Morans

credibility determinations if its so

lopsided

ocs SH_~ET In this case I would

say no just simply because in this case we

have a classic battle of the experts I but

oddly enough the ba~~ling experts are al on

respondents side And )hat we have are

experts whD ~estif~ed in 2007 who flat

disagreed wit the testimony of respordent S

experts in 2003 without any atterrpt by the

2007 experts or respondents to reconcie

that testiITony Given that circumstance it sf

not surp-isirg that the experts in 2007 s

testimony were given very litte weight One

of the things that Hs ltJilcher referred 0 was

unfettered access to the site If anyone had

u~fettered access to the site~ it was

respondent and yet there are no photos in the

record showing the streaL~S leaving the site

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dry except during a drought

JUDGE VOLGAST But her point was

tha t the goverrunert ~as the bmiddoturden here

MS SHlHEI And the burden -- he

government has met the burden In fact in

this case the preponderance 0 the evidence

literally the only evidence other than

testirrony by the site owner testimony by

someone who walks around a three-hu1dred-acre

site hunting and looki1g for damage in che

fieds which lS what he estified he was

doing there and photographs taken during a

d--ought he oV9rtlhe=Iilg evidence is that the

waters do flow on a regular basis First of

all these waers have been napped the

waters leaving the site -- as flovving water by

USGS for hal f a century

JUDGE vIOLGAST Yo mentioned that

the waters flow on a regular basis Is that a

conir~uols bas~s

MS SHAMET We would say it would

be part of every year Your Honor

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JUDGE SHEEHAJ Tlen W1Y 18 that

necessarily continual The Scalia Test now

that veve 901e to continual flow is jilst

that -- there has to be continual flow He

says even the least significant of the lake

river ocealS or streams the four water

bodies the least significant steams has to

have COlticua you

repeatedly say - make other instances that

are to me a lot less cor~fdent t1~an what

Scalia seems to deilland You say page 31 the

drains flow at least part of every yeari page

35 at least SOme portion of every year at

least at least at least it comes up

repeated-ly in YOlr brief vlhich couid be just

one rain event So theres one rain at least

it flows one or two days after the rain aod

thats certainly a far cry I would argue

from continual So can you address the seeming

gap between your statemen~s and what Scalia

seems to demand as far as continual flow

~S SHk1ET Ie would state that

Your

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Justice Sca~ia described re1ativey permanent

wateYs He made pretty clear wrat teose were

He did~t require any specific n~~er of days

of flow -- what he did say was common sense

and common usage distinguished between a wash

and a seasoral river and tha f s in foot1ote

five respondent likes to use the term

intermitten~ a lot but the one thing it is

clear from footnote 5 is that Justice Scalia

does not give the term intermittent any

ocegulatoY import trJhy Because he

specifically decli~ed ~o define it

JUDGE SHEEHAN Why doesnt he give

it regulatory import when at least seven

tirres by ely count in his opinion he says

iEtermi tent waters do not cca11 fy as

jurisdictional -- he even calls it an oxymQron

ac one point

~S SHAMET Even though he does

not -- he declines ~o defihe it He says that

thee are defiritions 0 nterrnttent bu he

sees 10 reason to identify what tlose are

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here I and then he specifically says I We have

no occasion in this litigation to decide

exacty whe1 he cryirg up of a streambed is

continuous and frequent enough to disqualify

tle channel as a water 0 the Cnited States

~jUDGE SHEEI-IAN I know we can t -shy

aobody knows what intermitter~t meaJs with

aOsol~te rigor thas obviously subject to

interpretation But the fact is he

contlnmiddotually rejects intermitten~ waters

whatever that Ireans as jurisdictional a1d

you say intermittent doesnt matter I dont

know how yot can say lat in the face cf al

his statements that intermittent does w~tter

HS SHAMET I think the evidence

dernorstrates pretty clearly that ther-e is

regular flow on a regular basis in these

wateTs A good exaTIple

JUDGE SHEEH1ll~ Im not talking

about the eviderce 1lT talking about the

standard

MS SHAIjET The standard lS that

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there has to be a relatvely pe-mar_ent tvater

It cant be a wash it cant be someLhing that

flows only occasionally only in response co

a very strong rainfall i~ cant be a gutter

It has to be a geographic feature ~~d in this

case we have USGS mapping these as geographic

features conainng Vlaer for over ffty

years which if thatis not relatively

permanent I In not qui te sure what would be

JUDGE SHEEHAN C-ne1 how else - shy

why else -- why is it that you cannot muster

more behind your argument that these are

lowing dyains tha1 just saying at least part

of the year continually You never say its

continual you never say its relatively

permanert ane not interrrittert you seem to

stay away from saying that and it seems

purposeful because it happens so frequently

1 S SHAHET ~J e dont

over~exaggerate our evidence we say what it

is And in this case what we r re saying is Ie

agree hsse styeams dry up for part of ~he

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year VJe f ve never argued that these were

perennial streams because theyre not They

are streams that only flow for part of the

year But part of the year is good enough

1nder Jtstice Scalia f s test These are rot

washes theyre ~ot t ckles When they flow

t1ey flow As Jlldge Mo-an pointed out I the

record is replete wi th photos of these streams

flowing and floling wi th a good arnount ofI

water them Now for exanpJe -shy

JUDGE SHEEHlll Flowing at least

part of the year right

MS SHAME~ Flowirg at least part

of the year If I could get the photo up An

example is ~his series of photos~ if we can

get it up If not Ill jus give tre exhibit

numbers Not a perfect picture This photo was

taken in December 2006 As you can see

theres visible flow in the stream A1d this

is Complainants Exhibit 328 co~plai~ants

Ex-hibit 308 - sarre sreart same location you

can tell by the cross January 07 J still

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JUDGE SHEElI1N ~Iha t does tha t

realy prove YOJ cOl-=d go out right after a

rain as apparently happenedi apparently Dr

Whigham went out afte rain irw 07 ard Judge

Moran noted that he was out two days after a

big rain so naturally the drains were full

DJ showing us occasiQral ~-

IS SHAlyenjET If you can show four

sraight lonths of floN f think youre

probaby doing pretty good This is O1e of

respondent I S exhibits This is Dr Straws

photo ta~er_ in February 2007 This s

Respondents Exhibit 57pp

JUDGE VJOLGASI I (IT sory 1 whose

testimony was ~his

MS SHAMET Dr Straws The other

~h~ng that is documeGted -- Im just going to

go ahead and give you April April 2007 still

flow This is Complainants Exhibit 391 and

just ia case were llorried about March e

dont have March 2007 we have March 2003

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JIDGE SHEEHAN What drain is that

MS SHAMET This is Complainants

Exhibit 102L

JUDGE SHEEHAN What drain

MS SHAMET This is the portion of

drait six- seven as it leaves the si-se

crosses unde~~ea~h the railroad tracks to che

west and leaves the site We would also noce

chat in che 2003 hearing it was established

ard Judge ChaYlJeski acc6ped ordinary hig

watermark for the duration of the streams

leaving the site from the time they leave the

site cntil the time they wa~king distance

away hit traditionally navigable waters Now

whIle Justice Scalia said that existence of an

ordinary high waternark in and of itself does

not estabJish jurisdicion it does remair a

fact on the ground that shows the preseTlce of

f~c~J O-1r b~ief did cite in a footnote a

number of cases that describe what an ordinary

high water mark means and what it basically

means is that theres water there on enoJgh

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of a regular basis that theres no

vegetation and Dr Straw in poirtig at that

photo 57pp poined out that there was an

ordinary high watermark there e believe that

we 1ave s~ovm t2lougt t~1at eviderce as well is

that theres a regularity of flow through

these water bodies tJi th respect to Ms

~iilcher f s suprise that EA did not issue a

cease and desist order we in fact did we

issued an admif~istrative order n 2000 I

doat have the record citatio~ with me bu~ I

believe it was testified to in the 2003

tearilg In addi tion tlith respec 0 YIs

Wilchers conunent that EPA knew about the

operation before it was completed and didnt

intervere ~rat is also not correct In Culy

of 1999 EPA contacted respondent and

requested a site visit A- that time the work

was not done l6 site visit was scheduled in

-- they did the scheduling In July and the

visit was schedJled in September and in

August respor~dent brought equipment to the

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site and finished it up to present EPA with a

fai t accompli Couple other points There I s

bee~ a ~w~er of debates i~ t~e b~ie= about

briefs about whether or not there are in

fact wetlands on the sice and whether or not

they extend all the way to the tributaries

First of all ~othi~g in Rapanos altered the

EEe~gy and Water Developmert Appropriations

Act of 1993 Public Law 102377 106 Statutory

at Large 1315 in which Congress directed the

Corps of Eng~leers to use t~e 1987 wetlands

delineation nanual until a replacement manual

was established the courts have

recognized deference to the Corpss 1987

manual as the agencys interpretation of its

OvT regulatiors That manual was applied in

this case That manual when applied in this

case identifies wetlands throughout the site

JUDGE SHEEHAN A~e these -- are

these wetlands these draircs are tl_ey fed by

a1Y other source than rain

MS SHAMET No Your Honor These

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wetlands are what are called the top of the

watershed and this is why water flows in two

directions off of this site -- it flows both

west and east because its at the top of the

watershed

JUDGE SHEEHAN So any water on the

site its all rain-fed

MS SHAMET Yes The seasonality

of it however I can be established through

testimony regarding how the plants on this

site interact with that precipitation And

that testimony discusses the relationship

between whats called leap out and

transpiration In other words when the leaves

are on the trees the trees are uptaking water

from the ground -- from the groundwater table

and the groundwater table decreases and

thats why you see lower levels of water in

the summer During the winter when the leaves

are off the trees the trees are not

transpiring yet -- the water table rises and

thats why these are seasonally flowing

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s~reams and seasoca~ systems

JUDGE SHEEHAN Is there any

testirtony in the record abott the frequency of

the rain If rain is it is the source is

rain something on this property that occurs

f if -y times a year I a hundred t iITes a year t

two ~ines a year

MS SHAME= YOur Honor the

2003 record I believe there was an exhibit

and I apologize that I canZt name the exhibit

number for you right now that idenifies what

a one year storm is f what a three year stOrIT

is~ and l-lha a five year storm is in that

county and I apologize that I cant come up

with the exhibit number for you right now

JUDGE SHEEHAN vlell whats your

recolecion about it irhat it says eve if we

dont know the exhibit right now 111 just

trying to get a bead on how -- whether its

typically dry or typically wet there With

rain

MS SHAI-fET Your Hono f I cant

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recall I believe its under a~ inch -- around

a~ inch bu~ ca~t say foy su~e I look at

a lot of these for a let opound dipoundfeent areas

and I don~t want to get one mixed up with the

other

JUDGE ~]OGAST vTose testimony

we6 you reerrlg to gtThen you were discusslg

seasonality

MS SHAMET That was testimony of

Mr Martin It is at Remand Transcript 1912

~~d Rema~d Transcript 354

JUDGE STEI f he Board we~e to

conclude tha the evidence in this case meets

the Kennedy est is it necessary for theI

Board to consider whether the evidence meets

the plurality test

18 8HAMET Its the posiio1 of

EPA hat satisfying either test will establish

geographic jurisdiction under the Clean Water

Act As the Board noted all courts that have

so held have held tha~ if one meets re

Kennedy Tests then t~ats satised Ir

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a~swer actually to one of your questions I

1think Judge Steir there is one case It S an

unreported case out of the District of Hawaii

that has held that the Kennedy Test is lircited

to isolated waters and hat Y0l otherwise

apply to Scalia Test and that is Sierra vs

COJ1ty of Honolulu 2008 us Distcict EX=S

64262 1 and we would just note that that case

is inconsistent with the governing circuit

lali ts tle 9h Circuit and we believe its

inconsistent with Headlesburg and Moses but

you did ask lthether there was any case that

discussed he Sca=--~a test and that is the

only one at least Im aware of To answer

your question we believe t11at satisfying the

Kennedy Iest wOll-~d be sufficient and it would

not be necessary to reach the Scalia Test i

however we do beLeve thas weve satisfied

boh in this case and that ei ther test will do

it All through

JUDGE SHEEHAN Can you poi~t us iL

the record to what may not be a gap but it

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looks like a bit of a gap at least from the

briefs There I s a lot of testimony -- a lot of

discussion in your brief about the history

the history on the site water on the site

for exa~pe a 1953 p~cto s~ows di~ch O~e had

water I a 1937 photo one two and four had

water 1920 f USGS map had five -- ditch five

had water And then so we leap from sixty f

seventy years ago to the present decade

oegirning in 1999 middotJ~el a buner of inspectio1B

occurred mainly in 99 I and there was some

hopscotching and then they e~ded in 2007 So

he~e --- at least from the bries treres a

fairly big gap between the very very historic

taps and photos I and then ~he 1999-on

inspections and That they showed What about

the intervening

HS SHlIiCET - believe tha~ we also

discussed the USGS maps in 1994 which were

the most recent maps prior to activity As

YOUY HO1ort s aware from the Boards decisio1

in Bricks its inCUInbent upon us to show what

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the wates Jere lLlte before the activity f not

after the activity

JUDGE SHEE~~ Right bue the

before here is well before Thats my

~estion I dont see much except for that 94

map

MS SHAMET 1Ind we also used

aeria photography from 1994 and 1995 to

suppla--nent rphere I S been nO evidence in the

record that anything changed between 1994 and

1995 and the acivity in question which

started in I believe December of 98 or

Jaluary cf 1999 Ane I believe responcerts

agreed on the western side of the site in

their expert reper that the configuration

has been co~sistent si~ce 1949 up until the

time of the activity If there are any further

quest iors I woud jus smnnarize again by

pointing out that the facts this case are

veoy very siltple Ttese are wetlands theyre

clearly docJmented as wetlands the

preponderance of the evidence established the~

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as wetlands The preponderance of evidence -shy

tle overwhelming preponderance of the evidence

established that Chese wetlands are

performing actual documented functions The

very significant nexlJS that Justice Kennedy

described in h~s opinion The evidence in this

case shows that these wetlands are physically

adjacent to tributaries These are ditches

they are rranmade bu~ wo~d ~ust note that

iJ Ra9a~os itself the ditches were manmade

and no justices voted about that They flow

waking dista1ce to tradi tionally r~avigable

waters and 7hey are jllrisdictional Thank

you

MS v-JILCHER May it please the

cOJgt IrJClnt to t~lank couJsel for -aising the

tabletop analogy necause I forgot to This is

at a divide It is twenty feet above sea

level It 8 a watersted divde lke he

cortinental divide such hat water is flowirg

away it is not at the bottom of anything It

is nQ a marsh it is EDt a bog it is Lot a

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swarrcp i1-is is ar~ area where there is no

abili ty for the fJetland to capture and keep

pollutants out of a Y1avigable water because it

lrsef is a the very head of the watershed

And so trying 0 -- f you Jere able to be

there and see that~ you woald understand that

its not got the same type of functions and

values as some area ad) aca1t to below I

cach1g f pYEvertng po=-l-ltion cori1g frou a

10 of upstream areas While thats not

parricularly significant

JUDGE SHEEHIlll Havent yo just

helped ma~e te argumelOt that with gravity

lorking as it 60es any discharge of a

po1hltant up high wotld have made its way dOlJID

low f to a navigable water

MS WILCHER Yes so this is not

a rrounanols area fh=-s is a very slight

slope 11 fact to the naked eye it s almostt

hard to see a slope

JUDGE SHEEHAN Why does flow

matter as significant ~exus goes

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HS VrJCHER We11 the amount of

rur~offf qJie fr-ankly r~at would occur can

matte w~th regacd to that I do want 0

address a few absolutely incorrect things that

were stated and a couple misconceptions Let

me start with the mischaracterization of the

axpert witnesses that were hired in 2007

There seems to be some attempt to imply that

hiri1g differe1t expert witnesses to deal with

wtether this is ju-iscicto1al under Rapanos

is the same as having expert witnesses to

testify whether or not this area met the

former -- the actual definition of a wetland

Theyre two different things You can have a

wetland and it ca1 still not be

jClrisd~ctional So itS our hope that the

Board doesnt misconstrue that to say that by

hiring different fgtxperts you were trying to

get a different result which was not the case

-- its simply that if youre looking at how

much flow what the funcions of values ar-e

its a very differert thing fran sorteone who

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caL go ou~ a~d do the soil samples to

determine whats hydric and whats not

Seco~d jus~ as with regard to the

credibility of the witnesses just as there

were some -- a case perhaps whee ac-I expert

witness misstated something or changed its

rnird 1 so did some of the government I s expert

wi tnesses misstate something that then had to

be co-ected So did the brief that said

that took the word and and changed it to

Or witr regard to what Justice Kennedy hadI

written So I dont think that that in and of

itself has any significarce wi th regard to the

credibility of a witness tihen we are talking

abcu lGVJ fa this land is from a navigable

water counsel has mentioned that it S 2600I I

feet middotrhich is about half a mile or 4200

feet which is close to a mile -- thats not

to reac-t a navigabe water Let us be clear

That is to reach something that is not

necessarily an intermittent area4 EPA

stipulated l the stipulations dated

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Septewer 8th 03 that the water body

depicted and ]i5 is nurrbers 37 and 38 that

the water bodies depicted as these drainage

ditches on the site are depicted by the USGS

topa rEap at the 3allary Hill (Phonetic)

quadrangle as a broken blue line and that a

broken bae line denotes an irtermi ttent

stream These are intermittent streams ard as

Justice Sheehan has correctly noted Judge

Scalia says n mary circ1JIstarces that

intermittent streams are not jurisdictional

waters of the U S HmAever if we tun to irlhat

Custice Kennedy says thats rhece we kind of

get into the eitheror what we also find

there is a great discussion by Justice Kennedy

loiClself on 1e Ccrps definition of a

tributary Counsel was referring to the

drainage ditches as t-ibutaries ard Justice

Kennedy makes it c~ear that the corps

definition of tributary that was in effect at

tr~e time this decision was -rritter middotJsing he

high watermark was not appropriate I and would

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lead in fact to too broad a definition of what

was jurisdictional i~ and of itsef under the

Clean Water Act And theres we dont have

time to read it all but Im sure youve

probably ead it more tirres t~an have

aryay iled also jtst lke to mention tha

qui te frankly the evidence that has been

introduced in this case is the type of

evidence the Cour was r~opng would not be

Csedo prove jurisdictior on such an

important issue and that is its speculative

Its not -- were not arguing that wetlands

arent irrportart J we arent arguing that

wetlands aralt valuabe anc you know in

1990 wed say regulate because we had the

legal authority to do so This again is one

of tlese cases t1at sirrply wishing that 1_e

Q C d h dfe I~upreree o~r~ naa sal some ~~g 1 ~eren~ y

does not make it so This is what the Court

said -- thats the final word on the mater

whatever we decide ~t is bu it S tre firai

word and we c~~t change that regardless ofl

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how mportant or ho wrong someone may think

that it auld be To other quick points to

mention and that is EPA knew about this work

that was going on in February of 1999 and

that is in Jeff Lapps testimony tn Volume 1

page 167 through 169 so EA did kno Most of

t~e woyk was completed by Aprii or May of that

year before EPA every CaIne out to the site

and it wasnt until 2000 chat a notice of

violation was issued

JUDGE SHEEHamp1 So why does that

matte- That is an enforcement choice EPA makes

every day of the week and its not part of

the record i~ has nothing to do with whether

or not the Kennedy or Scalia or any other test

was met It really doesnt seem to bear on the

legal issues here

11S vIILCHER Fair enough For

purpose of ~his arg~~e~tl for t~e pur~ose of

today youre probaDly right J-luge But i~

does matcer if were talking about typical

practice of EPA and while Im well aware that

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theres no requirement to take an enforcemer-t

action in a1ything less trar this period of

statute of limitations if in fact this was as

egregious and as violative and as problematic

as counsel appears to make it seem then EPA

did have every opportlli~ity to stOy that and

in ITany many cases vlhen EP1 sees a clear

violation of the law I they simply issues a

cease and desist order and in a case like

Rapanos in the Rapacos case you have people

who are going out anc taking action and

violating the wetlands law after theyve

received many state and federal cease and

desis orders so the facts of this case are

so di==ere~t from the facts of tha~ case Here

we have someone who was trying to comply with

the law as it was written at the time in my

view he was complying with the law as it was

wri ten at tlat time actG the fact tha EPA

didnt like ~he way the law was written and

what it said and what the courts were

deciding does not give hem authority to come

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in and regulate after the fact

JUDGE WOLGAST Counsel thank you

youre Olt of if you could make your

final point n just r~e next thirty secords J

I think you saie you had two I may be

mistaken

MS WILCHER Thank you Well we

are talkirg about jurisdictio1 I do think

tha tte overall =-ssJe of equity cotes i1to

play Ar~d knowing -- even krowing what the

jurisdiction was at the time of the activities

undertaken is really kind of an unc I Qar

matter Were still struggling with what

j Clrisdict iOI is Re9rettably toat s always

been t~e problem with this program

problem Igtli th this progral7l is that Corgress did

not give us clear direction and clear guidance

to either EPA or to the Boyds or to anyone

else in the regulative corrmlUnity and I t-hink

that s a factor certainly that the court Iblil

consider ard should corsder I when making a

decision on issues of liability and in this

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case we would ask that you do so Thank you

J1DGE voLGAST Thank YOJ Cours

thank yOJ for your arguUent and the case is

now submitted

MS DURR All rise Session of the

Environmenta Appeals Board nmv stands

adjourned

(Whereupon the above-entitled

matter was concluded at 11 16 am)

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A -

ability 5011 722 able 725 above-entitled 1 17

808 absent 224 absolute 588 absolutely 213

734 abundant 1221 abutting 3920 accepted 62 10 access 20 16 5419

5420 accompli 642 account 538 accurate 5322

542 Act710 1020

111715193712 4064517649 6720763

action 615 381 78211

activities 79 11

7021117 actual 169 714

7313 adapted 69 addition 6313 additional 820 address 9 14 1111

122 167 2S6 411148175619 734

adjacency 6 11 2284721483

adjacent 29 1818 39194024418 718728

adjourned 807 administrative

1136310 adopted 71 advocacy 25 19 aeria131155213

activity 6920 70 1 bull

Page 81

708 aerials 205 affect 166 agencies 11 A Agency 12 21315

35613 agencys 6415 ago 699 agree9212014

4115922 agreed 356 44 15

4925017 7014 ahead 1110 6119 air 1319 ALJ 14412 2812

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CERTIFICATE

This lS to certify tha~ ~he foregoi~g transcript

in the matter of Snith Farm 3nterprises ILC

Hon Anna Wolgast E-wironmenta Appeals Judge

Date Jaly 20 2010

Flace Washingson DC

represens the ful and complete proceedings of the

aforementio1cd marter as reported and reduced to

typewriting

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCR8ERS

1323 rOOE iSLAND AVE_ NW (202 234-4433 WASHtGON DC 20005-3701 fNWnnalrqft)6Scom

Page 14: BEFORE THE ENVIRONMENTAL APPEALS BOARD IN ... By...MS. DURR: Environmental Appeals Board of the U~ited States Environmental Protec~ion Agency is now in session for oral argument, in

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occurr~ng specifically at this site I mean

I think the challenge for the compa~y i~ this

appeal 8 that there were credibili ty findings

Chat tiere made by the ALJ as to some of the

testimony by respondents by the companys

wi tnesses and given the Board f 5 standard forJ

crecibility determinations where the 30ard

you knovl historically ove many mar~y years

gives great weight to an ALJ~s finding how is

it ha t we can ove look he ALJ S credibi lity

determinations in the face of countervai~ing

evidence ~hat the ALJ found ~o be credible

(S WILCHER Judge Stel if I

can finish Judge Sheehans question I III ge

right back 0 you on that You were wanting

some specifics and an example of what the

government tried to prove in its case By

go~ng through this whole denitrification

process they nake ~o distinction betwee~ the

value that ris particalar wetlald is making

or any paricular wetland is making I to the

denitrification 0 the Chesapeake Bay

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202) 2344433 WASHINGTON DC 20005middot3701 WWN11w1rgtOSsoom

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l5

JUDGE SHEEHAN But the Kennedy

tea says that if wetlands aloLe or in

combination with other wetlands have that

kind of effect

115 WILCHER Wetlands alone or in

corrbinato1 with otrer wetlands or in

combination lith the uplands the arguments

~ha t tbey ace laking wOClld apply equally to

uplands and as the court noted in the Rapanos

decision applying some of these tests as the

government histori cally has applied them to

say that they are jurisdictional sirrply

because hey have value and may be somewhat

miles aay hut may have some connection or

some val~e ~i~es away being speculative in

nature does rot cause it to be

jurisdictional and it sa~d i~ so the en~ire

United States would be considered regulated

llilder tbe Clear~ ater Act

JUDGE SHEEHAN Theres ~~ theres

one and cot to get in the vay of Judge

Steins question but Qne of the exhibitsr

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Remand Exhibit 937 shows a very honeycombed

tissue through the Srith Farm weta1ds going

ou~ to the two rivers and then to the bay I~

looks sure _ surely to me it looks from this

exhibit and otes as if tl1e wetlands are very

proximate to and affect directly the waters

below Car you address that

KS WILCE2R I wil Those naps

do not show any actual measurable connection

nor do they show a contir1oJS surface

conE6ction r~avigable vrates

JUDGE SHEEHAN Why does it have to

be a surface connection tilly car_ t it be stbshy

surface if theres a hydrological link

MS WILCHER But theres ~o

showir~g of a silD-surface hydroogica liak

either Theres a total lack of evidence of

probative dence i~ th~s case to actualy

tie that paricu=-ar vletland Co a rcavigable

water which by the way you would have to gor

fcom tha wetland to a drair~age ditcr~ anc

went out there and traipsed down the site

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISlAND AVE 0W (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON DC 200JS3701 wwwnealrgrooscom

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before I came here to talk to you about this

but youd have to go fr~~ that -- b~t this ~s

all en the record -- YOlld have to go fron

that area that might be-- that part of it that

might be considered a we~land~ through

drainage di tches t1at are only inerrrit ert

in nature and t1e evidef~ce is clear that

theYre only intermittent in nature including

the USGS blue line dotted lines and then they

would have to go from tlere to Bailey Creek

non- navigable to Drurr Point Creek

non-navigable] then to tributaries of the

westeGl branch of the Elizabeth River I which

is t~e f rst tne you I d hi a ~avigable wate

If go in the opposite

direction they would have to go from drainage

ditches to Quake~ Neck Creek to ~eans Bra~ch

which are tributaries 0 tne ravigable water

the Nansemond River 14d so there there is

no proof that there is a connection

Things could lave been done Tne-e

cOmiddotJld have been dye raclgs there cOlld have

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1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202 234middot4433 WASHINGTON DC 20005-3701 wwwraargrossoom

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been a~l kinds of evidence hey could have

taken samples they could have done

quantitative analysis There is no chemical

evidence there is no physical evidence there

is no biological evidence that connecs this

to a navigable water f and therein lies the

problem

JJDGE TO~GAST Justa if I

could follow up on that before we get back to

cred~bility iss~es

MS HLCHER Okay

JUDGE WOLGAST Are you saying that

the fact they floTlI throJgh ditches is a

jurisdictional problem

MS 1tILCHER Not particularly

JUXE vIOLGASI And the1 get ~ ing

back to the testimony that Judge Sheehan was

referring to where JIdge Morar was referring

to the testimony of Mr Rhodes and Mr Martin

that the property provides flood storage flow

moderaion carbOIl sequestration vlater

purification denitrification what I want to

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undsystard aboJt your argument 1s are these

aspects insufficient or would they be

sufficient if in your mind there was more

evidence of the connection of these attributes

to the Nansemond or Elizabeth Rivers

MS iILCHER EPA -- the govenment

cant simply say that wetlands are valuable

because they are-- help prevent flooding and

not show that they would help prevent flooding

in this particular case and that it would

significantly help prevent flooding in t~is

partcular case lrJha ttey have done toe

Drie is to siIply lay down he well-knoJl

attributes a~d valuable functions and values

of wetlands and said therefore this is

having a significant effect on navigable

~ivers Theye is not a co~~ection they have

lot snoltm by a1y credible evidence cause and

effect of any sigrifcant iIEpact tpon thef

navigable rivers

JUDGE SHEEHAN But you make

again a very theoretical argument about the

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

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fact Chat the goverruuent just argues wetlands

fgelerally but werer t government wi tnesses

crawling allover this property mul iple

times testify~ng at great lengtl lots of

exhibits aerials historc maps and

everythi~g else to show in this case fo~ this

property there was trat link Its hard to

believe with all that 11Bssive Estimony and

getting to ~he credibility issue that he

governrrent doesn~t have a pretty solid case

rat hat nexus sat) sfyilg the Kennedy test

exists

MS WILCHER It is hard to

believe I totally agree It is hard to

believe Tle governmert has had unfettered

aCCess to this property for over a decade and

have failed 0 develop flmr drainage elements

they cant show how illuch flows off the site

they cant show vhat type of sediment runoff

might have occurred at ~he site ~hey ca~tt

show what type of water retention is teld Jy

the site t~ey have been unable to show any

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPOATERS AND TRAASCRIBERS

1323 RHODE SLANDAVE NW WASHINGTONDC 20005-3701 WWWJeargrosscol1

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ecoogical cC1nection 1tith regard to wildlife

there was a Woodcock seen on the site There

is absolutely -- and its amazing to me hat

tr~ere is a void

JUDGE STEIN But isnt the test a

nexus a significant nexus not this

sJbstantial inpacts est that I hear wove]

through some of your statements and T dont

-- when I go back and I look at the Kennedy

opinion you knot] and some of he hings t1at

are cited I dont necessarily see that that

test requires the level of proof that youre

stggesing is reqJired ny hat test So

perhaps you could explain to me based on the

Kennedy opinion how you get from there to the

level of proof Lhat you re a5~ing for f just to

establish jurisdiction

MS WILCHER Certainly

JUDGE STEIN I mean I we re not

here to determire you know penalty or

anything else were here just to figure out

if youre even i~ tbe door

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

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MS IILCHER Yes understand

Ie 1 1 what Justice Kennedy said was to talk

abmlt he fJay the Corps nac typically

regulated wetlalds and then to say absent

more speciic regulations however the Corps

must establish a significant nexus on a case

by case bBSS wler it seeks to regulate

wetlands based on adjacency to non-navigable

tributaries and then it goes on to say given

the potential over breath of the Corps yen s

regulations this showing is necessary to

avoid unreasoDable applications of the

statute

The justice wrote I no~ just a

~exus if the COurt had only said there has to

be a nexus then o~e would have a different

burden of proof in this case the court said

a significant nexus and we have to assnne

that a significant nexus is meaningful that

those words mean SOIEethi1g So theres a -- at

least a two-step process One to show that

theres a nexus and the other is to show that

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202) 234-4453 WASHINGTON DC 20005-3701 wwwnoorgrossCOll

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its significant and that is what the record

is devoid 0 in this particular case

JUDGE SlEIN But its not a

significa1t impact its a significant nexus

MS iILCHER Thats right a

significant nexus And the sigrificart rexus

must -- and if YOu read through the rest of

the case it talks abolt hm -- that in order

to regulate land as water there must be some

type of impact on the water

JUDGE SHEEHAN Justice Kennedy

also uses a phrase that think is pertinent

here r he says that the how -- how the proof is

determined has to be done in a practical way

ard i almost sounds as if what you I re

requiing is that the governrrent set up flow

meers or pour a vial of discharge into a

ditch and see if it eventually ends up in the

Chesapeake or do something on a very

impractical scale to prove ~he connectio~

MS WILCHER You know this is a

really important issue The governrrent has to

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do sOIething oJer than to make allegations r

especially in a case where youpoundre dealing with

constitutional issues such as privae property

rights and how one car jse his own property

or hers and in this case I there are lots of

things tha~ EPA historically has done for

ypcal NPDES cases But when you before he

Board on a NPDES case theres at least some

measure If they had had pictures that there

las a plurne comir_g off of this wetlar~d if

theyd done any flow calculations if theyd

had any physical chemical biological

evidence of a nexJS and a signiican- nexus to

the navigable waters which again( are not the

ditches they are the ditches that flow to the

creek that flow 0 the creek that flow 0 the

navigable waters j then it would be a different

case but that is not what has happened in

this case

JUDGE IJOLGAST Well as you say

the goverIl1lent obviously has the burden of

proof i~ a~ eLfo~cerne~t case l but is this the

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1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202) 234middot4433 WASHINGTON DC 20005-3701

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same type of evidence that you thirk a

_a~Qowne~ should Lndertake I mean obviouslY

they have the burden to obtain a permit where

there is potential jurisdiction

I~S ~JILCaER Btt if the person

doesnt obtain a permit ~~ and the government

thinks that theyre i~ error again the

government always has the burden of proof

JUDGE vJOLGAST Right but J 1m

talking about getting a -- yOJ know starding

in the landowners shoes before weve ever

gotten to an enforceme1t case it -- it I

mean I ~h~nk theres some iSS48 with getting

back to the Supreme Court case that one of

he things that were concerned about - at

least lJustice Scalia pointed to was how much

evidence time money it takes to vJOrk

thro~gh ~h~s process and it sou~ds like the

yeLl know r the advocacy here is that there

should be more not less

)15 ~JLC1ER There stou1d be

something dore by the government in thi s

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323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW WASHINGTON DO 20005-3701 wwwnealrgrosuom

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regayd to actually prove a nexus and a

sgnificant nexus ard in this ease I canr

assuye you Judge Wolgast that the l~downer

has go~e above and beyond the oall of duty

going to the Corps time after ti~e having the

Corps ou to tr~e site and having spent talk

about the time and money and investmert having

his case as understand it having spent

over $800 000 in litiga~ion costs to try to

pr-otect what was legal at tl~e time that it was

aone and so -- so there is a burden

The governme1t has the burden aid

in this case in this par~icular case they

failed to meel it I don I t know why I haven [t

been involved that lor~g ~ would speculate

tl1at by the time he Rapanos case cane along

it V~as jlSt too hard to go back and find the

type of probative evidence that would carry

the cay_

I do not necessaily thirk that

its an impossible tas~ There have been ot~er

cases that ve reviewed aihere the goverrUent

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has irtroduced evidence of the poundows tr~e

amount of drainage that has occurred how much

water might be taken up by a wetland area$ but

none of that was done in thi s particular case

and again we can only speculated why that

was the case

JDDGE STIN How does tr_s S~xth

Circuit decision in the Cundl f f matter bear on

your view that the -- you need some sort of

laboratocy araysis to prove h~s7

MS ~VILCHER in that

particular easel you dont have as I ~ecall

the -- the disarce roIT a navigable waer

tha t we have here [ and I think the farther you

are away from a navigable water the harder it

is 0 prove tha~ theres any impact on that

navigable water and in this -- again in this

case they are far away from a navigable

water and I think toe reaSC1 tha~ we don

see the p=oof is because its not there itS

not developable and that is why it is not

Cere Did yOl wart De to ~~

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JUDGE STEIN I do wact you to get

the credibility question

MS bull WILCHER I dian t t want to

forget your - shy

JUDGE STEIN No while we we~e on

this topic why cor t t yOJ addres s the

credibility question

MS vILCHER I think its an

important question IC t S a real important

question and that is simply that s even though

the regtllatior~s do provide that typicaily when

the ALJ hears the witnesses and makes

determinations 0 ~~eir credib~~ity that

typically this Board will defer to that

However in this case a carefctl review of the

record shows that the ALJs just got it wrong

and it is within this Boards prerogative to

look at the -- look at t1e factors tha

that the ALJs used in making their

deterninatior and make a judgreJt aboJt

wl1ether those factors are sufficient

A couple of examples There was a

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mar who had Iived OT the farm for h~rty years

who testified that he I d walked over the farm

for thir~y years and testified that in fact

Ithe streams J or the drainage di tches were

intermittent in nature and did not carry water

I - 1 h d - a11 th e trre bull e __ t e JU ge ~n tHe QeClS10n

said well I think hes a nice man I think

hes beholden to the Smi ths f and he was just

Ollt or a wa so totally just discounted his

testimony saying he WBS just out on a walkJ

as if that meant t~at somebodywQuldnt no~ice

DGE ~vOGAST ~ Are yot saying

though that it would have to carry water all

tre time

MS vHLCHER No no But but

it f s clearly -- is Eot a navigable water lor

it is adjacent nor is the wetland adjacent to

a navigable water in this case It flows

anything t~at =lows opound= of t~at a~ea that has

been considered to be wetland by the

goverr-Uent flows -rxough drainage ditches

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that are only intermittent in nature and

~herefore are ~ot co~sidered to be navigable

watsYs clea~ly urder the Rapanos decison

JUDGE SHEEHAN But if the man

walking the land said that they were

intermittent and youre saying intermittent

doesnt matter

I~S IgtlILCHER Were saying that -shy

Judge Cha~eski as I recall said tha~ there

was a c01tinuOU5 flow of 5088 kind isnt that

-- d~~lt J~dge Char~eski say that

WOLGAST lrJell Justice

Scalia said that even after that -shy

HS WILCHER Right right

JUDGE WOLGASl That that

seasonal flow could establish jurisdiction

~nder the pluralitoes test

148 t-JILCEER BJt there s not beenj

seascnal flow established -=-n this case Yot

have somebody going out there en particular

days after these ditches have been dug which

we all know alter the flow in drainage after

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the eLi tches are dug ftJaer goes to the lowest

level and so theres going to be more water

draining OU= of there t~a~ ~here would have

been in 1998 and 1999 and that -- that is

clear ~tat ~tere is no ev~de~ce ac the time

this was done they were -- they were anything

but inerYlitten and here l s no j1risdictiola1

connection that they have proven to date

JUDGE ~JOLGAST And what do you

think they would have had to have shown to

show seasonal flow

MS ~IILCHER Well they could

have done something more than go out there

nine times over tbe course of a year rrhey

could have had aerial photographs taken Ihey

cod have -- weil first yOl have the uSGS -shy

you have the USGS maps as showing its

inteYrnittent and theres lierally no

testimony en the record right now to show that

theyre anything but interrrdtent Ot-her than

to say that if somebody goes out there ~ine

Cimes and looks at the flow and sees water

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then -- agair~1 keeping ir mind this was years

atel 1_8 dainage d=- tches tver-e dtg ha t were

channeling more water into the old one through

seven drainage areas there B nothing tof

establish what was the~e at ~he time in 1998

a~d 1999

JUDGE VlOLG~rST And I think

isnt this what courts are struggling with in

the sense that its -- its one thing to say

~ts ~~ter~itte~tf b~t is that good enough I

mean I dont you have to figure out just how

much flow in you know what period of time

or the idea that -- I dont -- if someoae

says t~at its intermitte~t Irr not sure that

means its ir~ or out without further evidence

MS WILCHER Right Well that

shows really the that shows arguably a

cQnYlecion Bu how rrlcr =ow is going through

there whether sediment loading is going

through there whether theres an ecological

connection through there all these whethers

lead to whether t~e~e is a sig~ificant nex~s

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to a navigable water and if you look at some

of the other cases ~here has been that kiLd of

information introduced and in this case there

is none

JUDGE vJOLG1ST hhat case are you

thinking of

MS vJILCiER I thirki1g maybe

t was the Precon case ir - - in the Eastern

District of Virginia Its on appeal in the

Fourth Circuit I may r~ve been ~hat BJt

I 11 be happy to provide some cases -- a case

or cases later on that show the type of

evidence that tas been introdJced because I

remember reading about them and cant think of

the name right now

TlDGE SHEEIiAN I Vant to go back

for a moment to Judge Stein J s question about

credibility

gtIS CLCHER YOS

JUDGE SHEEHAN So ALJ Moran sat

through days and days of testimony on the

bench a lot of pecple ~n ~~at witness chair

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Hes there hes on he scere hes

~nterpreting the way the witnesses speak and

their basic credibility which you can only do

face to face in that way Wha~ is it about

what happened there that causes you to think

theres sOne way or some reason for as not to

credit the typ~cal deferehce we would extend

There must be some exception here that we ~eed

0 know about for that to happen

MS WLCHER tAJel1 r ard there are

a few facts that I think would be relevant to

your consideration in that case In the first

instance some of these wi~nesses that the ALJ

deter~ined were not credible --Jere stipJlated

as being expert vtitnesses and hat shows at

least sorre level of credibility in the mind of

the government w th regaro to whetJ~er they

were experts in the field

Second some of the criticisms

in one case a criticism that an ALJ made of an

expert wi tness was that he had not beer~ 0 the

site often enocgh yet vith one of the

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gover~ors -~ goverG~entls expert witnesses

that person had been to the site less times

t1an t1e Srith Farms expert witress A1C SO

there is a confounding sense that in this

particular case for whatever reason if the

experts agreed ~ th r~e goverr_rne1t f they were

credible and that if they di~~t they were

not

It just seems highly unlikely that

every single witness iltroduced by Smith

Far~s and Ive had the pleasure of working

wi th Mr Boyd and it lS just I think

statistically urEkely that one could End

that many unmiddotmiddotmiddotcredible witnesses and in thisf

case I do not believe that they were not

credib2e I believe they were as credible ald

as I mentioned in some cases were stipulated

in beirg expert w~t~esses ~~

JUDGE SHEEHAN So you didnt

believe they were

HS WICHER I did not bel ieve

they were not credible so I believed that

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they were credible And -- and it is sOIEewhat

confoundirg other than to say that the

closest thing that I could figure out was that

if hey supported t~e governments viev tey

were credible and if they did not support the

governments Vlew I they were not

CJDGE trrOGAST But dien f t Judge

Moran find that -- and to generalize ---- that

the witnesses failed to establish that to the

exent t1ere were weta1ds they -lere isolated

by on-hydric soil lasnt that a central part

of his credibility determination

MS ~vILCHER Well trat S O1e of

the findings that Judge Moran made but in

this paricular case keep in mind its not

Smi Parms tha-c has 0 show that there is a

break or a barrier -- its the government who

has to show that the~e is a con~ection

JUDGE liOLGAST Of

understand Right

HS IIILCHER So theres cerainly

pockets of non-hyd~ic soil in tte area and

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for SOle reaSCl EPA _ ar~d again this is just

ki~d of amazing to me

spent this long on that EPA did not go out

there and do a typical delneaion of the

site and this is something that is cypically

done Its amazing that EPA did not issue a

cease and desist order as soon as t~ey ~~ew

abouc it There are many things that to me

are amazing about this case that quite

frarky I are he easor that I came nere to

argue it Because lIm a strong believer in

protecting the Clean Water Act and in

protec~ing lteta-ds and you mayor may lOot

know from my history I I bear a lot of scars

from having trIown myself in the body of

wetlands protection bac~ in the days ana I

still believe its an important thing to do

But I also believe its important to follow

~~e rule of law and ~n chis case Mr Boyd

made every effort to follow the rule of law

and I bel ieve he did and when it did not work

out tte way that EPA wanted the law to be

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this enforcement action came forward at a

time -- and had they intervened early on i~

t~is case they cou~d have stopped They knew

months before the work was cOITpleted -- hey

knew months before the work was completed that

there was ditching and draining going on

t~ere and trey did no move in quickly to try

to resolve that case ar~d they could have -shy

they could have stopped most of the so called

harm that they are now alleging but chose not

to do so ~~ey dd ~ot do a deineaLion they

did not inroduce proof that this particular

part of property has a significant nexus to

jurisdictional waters of the United States to

a navigable water of the United States I and

thats the reason I~ he~e

JJDGE VJOLGASI I see your time is

expired if theres no other questions

MS WILCHER Thank you

MS S~J~ET~ Good morning You=

Honors My name is Stefania Shaliat and I

represent Region III in this matter

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specifically the complainants who are the

division directors for the Environmental

Assessment a1d Irr~ovation Divisio1 and he

vater Protection Division I at EPA Regio11 III

With me at counsel table Id like to

i~troduce DO1la Carner-Tal f who is regulatory

co-msel for the Nc-folk District Army Corps of

Engineers and Karen ~lendelowskl gt who is with

the office of general cour~sel and also we

have a disirglshed g1e8 1$ d lke to

introd~ce -- si~~ing behind me is Dr Dennis

Whigham with the Smithsonian Environmental

Resea=cr Cente- Your Honors responders have

do~e ~~ if I ca~ get in a couple points -- a

good job of obfuscating what are really very I

very simple facts here The simple facts are

hat these are tllelands perfouuiq docurrenced

functions that are delivered to tributaries

These wetlands are adj acent physically

trose trib-ltaries f ard those

tr lbtacies flow to traditiorally navigable

waters to the West 2600 feet away to the

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East 4200 feet away In other words the are

wetlands adjacent to tributaries that low

waki1g clstance to tr-adi ional1y navigable

waters These Vetlfu1ds were jurisdictional

under SWANCC as respondent conceded in Clean

~later Act Appeal mmber 05-05 when respondent

reseved argll1snt on jtrisdicto1 but chose

not to raise it un~il there was a change in

case law They continue to be jurisdictional

under any standard enunciated by he Supreme

Court in Rap~~os The qJan~u~ of proof offeree

by the complaina1ts i1 this matter not only

exceeds preponderance of the evidence it

exceeds any quantum of proof required by

Rapanos In fact t far exceeds it Another

thirg that is obscured in the ar9J11ent here by

the respondents is that up until 2007

respondents had a different set of expert

witnesses It las tlose expert witresses that

coroplainalts stipulated 1heir expertise was

in wetlands identification and the connection

of wetlands to waters of the uniced States

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Ihose witnesses largely agee with

complainac1t I s version of the facts on the

ground ae-d i wasnt until 2007 when

respondents hired a new set of expert

witnesses that any real dispute arose about

what exactly was going on in the site There

was dispute about ithat hat nean f but not

exacly what the physical characteristics of

t21e si te ere

J1DGE WOLGAST Counsel coud you

address Ms wilchers points that while there

may be flow moderation carbon sequestration

there may be some evidence that the government

hasnt shmlTI a nexus between those

characterist~cs and the ~avigable waters

vIS SHAME Sure First of alI

the evi6erce of Je fuYlctions beirg performed

on this S1 te is not speculative There are

photo after photo and testimony after

testimony the governments evidence is based

or established scientific literature that

identifies something called field indicators

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-- physical characteristcs on the ground -shy

that when identified correlate to a specific

functi~n being formed by the wetland In this

case there are three Tr~e first was fow

noderaiou and one of the physical

characteristics thez-e would be such things as

ponding you see a lot of later being

captured in low levels depressional levels

withir the wetland Tle record conta1s dozens

of photos of that The secord is

denitrification and that is the microbes

llptaking nitrogen in the soil That indicator

is something called modelirg i1 he soil It sI

a red spotch Essentially it IEeans that iron

is there That evidence comes not only from

the complainants but if one were to reviel

the soi 18 expert froIT respordent Dr Parkers

O~ I-fr arlter f s firs expe~t repo-t ir

20C3 he describes modeling in his sails The

third is primary production That is the1

contribution of a food source Taking

transforming organics that a2e in the _- in

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nature into a food source in water that then

tralsports that food source dowYlsream to

higher trophic organisms The best evidence of

that actually comes from one of respondents

experts Dr Cahoot 1110 photographed it

leaving the site I cant find the photo at

the marneYlt f blt I 11 describe what he says

Foaing a he confluence of the ditch

leaving the property with ditches along the

property boundary near the railroad This foam

vias also sampled and examined microscopically

--- it contained primary plant debris some

peller ald rllnero-lS sma oil droplets These

oil droplets in my opinion were probably

plant oils derived froI decomposition of the

organic matter in this area That description

correlates perfectly with the description in

the testimony in tZ1e remand hearng about what

primary production s the transport of

particulate and dissolved organics downstream

as a food sOJce So the -Jse 0 the -- t~1e

functions this case are not speculative

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theyre clearly being per-formed theyre

clearly being cocC1ented as beir~g perforrred on

this wetland Theres also evidence of the

hydrologic connection between this wetland

the ibuaries and the downst-eam

trad~tionally r~avigable waers Again that

comes both frOIE complainant ~ s experts as well

as some of respondents experts one of

respondent I s experts described tr_at hydrologic

co~nectio3 as such He descrbed the wetland

as a table tcp on which somebody pours water

the water comes off of that table top into

the ditches and then tansports down to the

taditional1y navigable waers The sane

expert lgtIr Wolf also agreed that the

wetlands on the site were in fact

hydrologically conYlected to the di tches wr~ich

forrr tributaries and lJlere n fact adjacs1t to

them So we also have fUTIction ard we have

transport Now with respect to Ms Wilchers

corrment -shy

JUJGE WOLGAS~ is YoDr

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posi tion on the type of evidence that you

need to show nexus of

characteristics you see on site to the

navigable waters

gt1S SHAtvET My positio1 is tha we

met it exactly and I would refer you to

Justice Kennedys opinion Justice Kenledy

ide~tified the type of functions that he would

consider to form a significant nexus

traditional navigable waters and those are

p~ecisely the functions that were identified

on this site Specifically Justice Ker-nedy

refers to slowirg COt-C of surface runoff r

filtration and purification -- that would be

in on 547 US 773 to 75 He sta~es with respect

to weta1ds f the rationale for the Cleal ~fater

Act regulation is as the Corps as recognized

that vetlands can perforrl cri tica2 functioES

re2-ated to the integrity of other waters

functions such as pollutant trapping -- in

other words l denirifcatior~ -- flood control

flow moderation and ruriOff storage

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Ther-efore the types of functions that we

docrraented as beng performed or this site are

precisely the ypes of unctiors tha Jusice

Ken1edy ide1tified J in his opinion as the

type of functions that form a significant

nexus

JUDGE SHEEHAN In in your

brief on page 46 you say that the Kennedy

Test requiEs weta1ds cont-ibutions to the

physical c1emical or biologic in-egrity of

doOrIlstream waters -- is it nor or Hand Your

brief says or

MS SHAMET The brief says II or -shy

JUDGE SHEEHAN Because if it can

De just one of those -shy

SHA4ET I believe Justice

Kennedy did use and however it is c2ear

that he does not require a function to

contribute to all ~hree factors and chats

clear from the function he identifies

JUDGE SHEEHAN Then why did he say

and

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MS SHAMET I think he said and II

but he had a comraa and a1d he was -eferring

to a list of examples rather than a standard

i1ith respect to Ms Wilchers cormnent that we

dont have any photographs of pltLnes as I

indicatedf one were to trt 0 R Ex 28 f

which llnfortunatey I can f find right now I

ltlhich is Respondent 1 s Exhibit 28 from the

first hearing in 2003 Dr Cahoon provides a

picture of that plume himself I would also

point out that with respect to

denitriication one wouldnt expect to see a

pInrr -- thats the exact point its to hold

Che nitrogen on the wetland -lot send it

downstream

JUDGE STEIN How is the Rapanos

significant nexus test d_fferent if at all

=rom the nexus i~ Rivervew Rverside

Bayview

MS SHAMEl Riverside Bayvie

assumed a nexus based upon adjacencYi in this

case lJustice Kennedy has asked that we

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actually go forward and establish that the

nexus exists rather than simply assuming itI

based On adjacency

JUDGE SHEEHamp~ on page 41 of your

brief you quote some of the tesciroo1Y of the

first ALJ hearing I which sounds a lit~le more

entative to me tha1 youre souidir_g today

about the substa1tial nexus test being met

The brief~ at page 41 reads that these

wetlands are more likely to perform

denitrification more likely to allow for

suspended settlements -- sediments to settle

out~ more likely to support a different suite

of wildlife species that to me is

lar-guage ~rats ~ot qui~e as powerful as

saying there is a substantial nexus met here

that just sounds -- can yo~ address what seems

to be more diffident language in your brief

than what youre articulating today

MS SHAMET Well as Your Honor

pointed out T the language that you pointed to

in the brief is from the 2003 hearing before

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tr~e Rapanos case As the Board is avlare J he

EPP~ agreed and argued that the evidence to

satisfy Rapanos had not been fl11y developed

as of 2003 and this precisely why we

requested a remand

JUDGE SHEEHAN But youre cit i ng

it here filed long after Rapanos as if its

still your position

MS SHAME~ I cited a lot of other

evidence as lJell Your Honor incLuding the

testimory of Mr Rhodes he testi~cny of Dr

~fhigham and the testimony the f1Tther

estimony of Hr Mart So while that is a

piece of evidence it is certainly not the

only evidence cited in our brief

JUDGE WOLGAS~ ~o go back to the

point you were making earlier about how the -shy

in essence the three-part test is the same

type of evidence yo~ would look to to

establish sign~ficant nexus ard Justice

Kernedy did seer to speak to hat saying much

the sarre evidence I referring to tre Corps ssect

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delineation manual type evidence should

P8nnit the establishment of a significant

nexus witr navigable wates

particularly if supplemented by further

ev~dence abou~ the significance of the

tributaries to which the wetlands are

cO11ected How does the gove-nment interpret

the latter part of that quote

MS SILllltlECmiddot I think that the

government needs to show and has shown in

this case that there is an ability of those

trihttayies Co conect the wetlands to a

traditionally navigable water in such a way

that the poundtnctions are delivered In this case

we have certainly shown the hydrologic

cO1nect=-o1 some of respondents expe-ts have

agreed with us that that connection exists and

tha there is sufic8Ylt ~hat there is

water exchange there and weve also shown

that heres proxirrity here again these are

walking distance to traditionally navigable

waters this is not the Rapanos case where it

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traveled 32 miles So we think we have met

that burden here by sho~Jing the hydrologic

connection and showing that these tributaries

are capable of delivering the function With

respect to cr-edibi=-ity and he points that

Your HOlors asked of AS Wilcher I would just

point out tha~ lTudge lvlorans credibility

determination was based on demeanor and also

on the facts of this case An important fact

to note for insta11ce is in the firstF

r~earing in 2003 respondent I s soils exper

who laid a g=id fOJnc 53 ou 55 sarnples

hydric The only two that were non-hydric had

JUDGE STEIN I couldnt hear you

MS SHApoundT Had 53 Oelt of 55 soil

sa~ples he identified as hydric in the site

soEs or ei ther side In the secord heaocilg

Dr Pierce testified that there was

essentially non-hydric soils everywhere And

on cross-examination he was asked didn t youI

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find any hydric soils and he said oc yeah

I found them I just didnt click on my GS

locator and ider~tify where they were and I

just didn It report them He only reported the

non-hydric soEs That is the kind of thing

that happened that caused Jtdge l-loran 0 find

a lack of c-edibility vvlth respect to 9r

Straw Dr Straws expert report disc1ssed

undulations in the landscape that he

interpreted to mean ere were no wetlands

tlere On the sand he conceded trat there

were no u1dulaions on tr~e landscape -- he had

mis~nterpreted the aeria= photo More

importantly he conceded ~hat he knew about

ha t erroy before the hearing and leverf

corrected it until cross-exa~ination Judge

Moran had ample basis for finding no

credibility on those witnesses

JUDGE SEIN Is it your view tha~

the Board has no authority to overrale an

ALJs credibility determination

MS SHAl-1ET No YOJr Honor the

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Board reviews he case de novo lffuile the

Board certainly defer to the ALJ r s credibili ty

determination what I run saying that in this

case t~ere is no basis for overturn~~g it

JUDGE STEIl If we were to

overturn it -- a credibility determination

what kinds of factors r it your view s1ould 18

be taking into aCCo4nt

MS S~~~ET I would think you

oelld be looking to see whether or not the ALJ

has a rational basis oh gosh I hate to use

legal standards like that -- but some sort of

bass or hich he based his credibiliy

deerrtination that he explained why there was

a lack of credibility and I think in this

case he did so amply

JUDGE SHEEHAJ If Ms v~i 1 cher S

correct characterizing the way testimony

cedibclity went i soanced almost like a

hundred percent credit to government

witnesses and practically zero to

respondens witnesses f tratg acctrate

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jus stipulat-=-ng 0 trat assumption - - if

t~atfs accu~ate would that be a basis fer not

allcwing deerence to Jdge Morans

credibility determinations if its so

lopsided

ocs SH_~ET In this case I would

say no just simply because in this case we

have a classic battle of the experts I but

oddly enough the ba~~ling experts are al on

respondents side And )hat we have are

experts whD ~estif~ed in 2007 who flat

disagreed wit the testimony of respordent S

experts in 2003 without any atterrpt by the

2007 experts or respondents to reconcie

that testiITony Given that circumstance it sf

not surp-isirg that the experts in 2007 s

testimony were given very litte weight One

of the things that Hs ltJilcher referred 0 was

unfettered access to the site If anyone had

u~fettered access to the site~ it was

respondent and yet there are no photos in the

record showing the streaL~S leaving the site

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dry except during a drought

JUDGE VOLGAST But her point was

tha t the goverrunert ~as the bmiddoturden here

MS SHlHEI And the burden -- he

government has met the burden In fact in

this case the preponderance 0 the evidence

literally the only evidence other than

testirrony by the site owner testimony by

someone who walks around a three-hu1dred-acre

site hunting and looki1g for damage in che

fieds which lS what he estified he was

doing there and photographs taken during a

d--ought he oV9rtlhe=Iilg evidence is that the

waters do flow on a regular basis First of

all these waers have been napped the

waters leaving the site -- as flovving water by

USGS for hal f a century

JUDGE vIOLGAST Yo mentioned that

the waters flow on a regular basis Is that a

conir~uols bas~s

MS SHAMET We would say it would

be part of every year Your Honor

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JUDGE SHEEHAJ Tlen W1Y 18 that

necessarily continual The Scalia Test now

that veve 901e to continual flow is jilst

that -- there has to be continual flow He

says even the least significant of the lake

river ocealS or streams the four water

bodies the least significant steams has to

have COlticua you

repeatedly say - make other instances that

are to me a lot less cor~fdent t1~an what

Scalia seems to deilland You say page 31 the

drains flow at least part of every yeari page

35 at least SOme portion of every year at

least at least at least it comes up

repeated-ly in YOlr brief vlhich couid be just

one rain event So theres one rain at least

it flows one or two days after the rain aod

thats certainly a far cry I would argue

from continual So can you address the seeming

gap between your statemen~s and what Scalia

seems to demand as far as continual flow

~S SHk1ET Ie would state that

Your

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Justice Sca~ia described re1ativey permanent

wateYs He made pretty clear wrat teose were

He did~t require any specific n~~er of days

of flow -- what he did say was common sense

and common usage distinguished between a wash

and a seasoral river and tha f s in foot1ote

five respondent likes to use the term

intermitten~ a lot but the one thing it is

clear from footnote 5 is that Justice Scalia

does not give the term intermittent any

ocegulatoY import trJhy Because he

specifically decli~ed ~o define it

JUDGE SHEEHAN Why doesnt he give

it regulatory import when at least seven

tirres by ely count in his opinion he says

iEtermi tent waters do not cca11 fy as

jurisdictional -- he even calls it an oxymQron

ac one point

~S SHAMET Even though he does

not -- he declines ~o defihe it He says that

thee are defiritions 0 nterrnttent bu he

sees 10 reason to identify what tlose are

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here I and then he specifically says I We have

no occasion in this litigation to decide

exacty whe1 he cryirg up of a streambed is

continuous and frequent enough to disqualify

tle channel as a water 0 the Cnited States

~jUDGE SHEEI-IAN I know we can t -shy

aobody knows what intermitter~t meaJs with

aOsol~te rigor thas obviously subject to

interpretation But the fact is he

contlnmiddotually rejects intermitten~ waters

whatever that Ireans as jurisdictional a1d

you say intermittent doesnt matter I dont

know how yot can say lat in the face cf al

his statements that intermittent does w~tter

HS SHAMET I think the evidence

dernorstrates pretty clearly that ther-e is

regular flow on a regular basis in these

wateTs A good exaTIple

JUDGE SHEEH1ll~ Im not talking

about the eviderce 1lT talking about the

standard

MS SHAIjET The standard lS that

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there has to be a relatvely pe-mar_ent tvater

It cant be a wash it cant be someLhing that

flows only occasionally only in response co

a very strong rainfall i~ cant be a gutter

It has to be a geographic feature ~~d in this

case we have USGS mapping these as geographic

features conainng Vlaer for over ffty

years which if thatis not relatively

permanent I In not qui te sure what would be

JUDGE SHEEHAN C-ne1 how else - shy

why else -- why is it that you cannot muster

more behind your argument that these are

lowing dyains tha1 just saying at least part

of the year continually You never say its

continual you never say its relatively

permanert ane not interrrittert you seem to

stay away from saying that and it seems

purposeful because it happens so frequently

1 S SHAHET ~J e dont

over~exaggerate our evidence we say what it

is And in this case what we r re saying is Ie

agree hsse styeams dry up for part of ~he

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year VJe f ve never argued that these were

perennial streams because theyre not They

are streams that only flow for part of the

year But part of the year is good enough

1nder Jtstice Scalia f s test These are rot

washes theyre ~ot t ckles When they flow

t1ey flow As Jlldge Mo-an pointed out I the

record is replete wi th photos of these streams

flowing and floling wi th a good arnount ofI

water them Now for exanpJe -shy

JUDGE SHEEHlll Flowing at least

part of the year right

MS SHAME~ Flowirg at least part

of the year If I could get the photo up An

example is ~his series of photos~ if we can

get it up If not Ill jus give tre exhibit

numbers Not a perfect picture This photo was

taken in December 2006 As you can see

theres visible flow in the stream A1d this

is Complainants Exhibit 328 co~plai~ants

Ex-hibit 308 - sarre sreart same location you

can tell by the cross January 07 J still

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lt- Low~ng

JUDGE SHEElI1N ~Iha t does tha t

realy prove YOJ cOl-=d go out right after a

rain as apparently happenedi apparently Dr

Whigham went out afte rain irw 07 ard Judge

Moran noted that he was out two days after a

big rain so naturally the drains were full

DJ showing us occasiQral ~-

IS SHAlyenjET If you can show four

sraight lonths of floN f think youre

probaby doing pretty good This is O1e of

respondent I S exhibits This is Dr Straws

photo ta~er_ in February 2007 This s

Respondents Exhibit 57pp

JUDGE VJOLGASI I (IT sory 1 whose

testimony was ~his

MS SHAMET Dr Straws The other

~h~ng that is documeGted -- Im just going to

go ahead and give you April April 2007 still

flow This is Complainants Exhibit 391 and

just ia case were llorried about March e

dont have March 2007 we have March 2003

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JIDGE SHEEHAN What drain is that

MS SHAMET This is Complainants

Exhibit 102L

JUDGE SHEEHAN What drain

MS SHAMET This is the portion of

drait six- seven as it leaves the si-se

crosses unde~~ea~h the railroad tracks to che

west and leaves the site We would also noce

chat in che 2003 hearing it was established

ard Judge ChaYlJeski acc6ped ordinary hig

watermark for the duration of the streams

leaving the site from the time they leave the

site cntil the time they wa~king distance

away hit traditionally navigable waters Now

whIle Justice Scalia said that existence of an

ordinary high waternark in and of itself does

not estabJish jurisdicion it does remair a

fact on the ground that shows the preseTlce of

f~c~J O-1r b~ief did cite in a footnote a

number of cases that describe what an ordinary

high water mark means and what it basically

means is that theres water there on enoJgh

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of a regular basis that theres no

vegetation and Dr Straw in poirtig at that

photo 57pp poined out that there was an

ordinary high watermark there e believe that

we 1ave s~ovm t2lougt t~1at eviderce as well is

that theres a regularity of flow through

these water bodies tJi th respect to Ms

~iilcher f s suprise that EA did not issue a

cease and desist order we in fact did we

issued an admif~istrative order n 2000 I

doat have the record citatio~ with me bu~ I

believe it was testified to in the 2003

tearilg In addi tion tlith respec 0 YIs

Wilchers conunent that EPA knew about the

operation before it was completed and didnt

intervere ~rat is also not correct In Culy

of 1999 EPA contacted respondent and

requested a site visit A- that time the work

was not done l6 site visit was scheduled in

-- they did the scheduling In July and the

visit was schedJled in September and in

August respor~dent brought equipment to the

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site and finished it up to present EPA with a

fai t accompli Couple other points There I s

bee~ a ~w~er of debates i~ t~e b~ie= about

briefs about whether or not there are in

fact wetlands on the sice and whether or not

they extend all the way to the tributaries

First of all ~othi~g in Rapanos altered the

EEe~gy and Water Developmert Appropriations

Act of 1993 Public Law 102377 106 Statutory

at Large 1315 in which Congress directed the

Corps of Eng~leers to use t~e 1987 wetlands

delineation nanual until a replacement manual

was established the courts have

recognized deference to the Corpss 1987

manual as the agencys interpretation of its

OvT regulatiors That manual was applied in

this case That manual when applied in this

case identifies wetlands throughout the site

JUDGE SHEEHAN A~e these -- are

these wetlands these draircs are tl_ey fed by

a1Y other source than rain

MS SHAMET No Your Honor These

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wetlands are what are called the top of the

watershed and this is why water flows in two

directions off of this site -- it flows both

west and east because its at the top of the

watershed

JUDGE SHEEHAN So any water on the

site its all rain-fed

MS SHAMET Yes The seasonality

of it however I can be established through

testimony regarding how the plants on this

site interact with that precipitation And

that testimony discusses the relationship

between whats called leap out and

transpiration In other words when the leaves

are on the trees the trees are uptaking water

from the ground -- from the groundwater table

and the groundwater table decreases and

thats why you see lower levels of water in

the summer During the winter when the leaves

are off the trees the trees are not

transpiring yet -- the water table rises and

thats why these are seasonally flowing

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s~reams and seasoca~ systems

JUDGE SHEEHAN Is there any

testirtony in the record abott the frequency of

the rain If rain is it is the source is

rain something on this property that occurs

f if -y times a year I a hundred t iITes a year t

two ~ines a year

MS SHAME= YOur Honor the

2003 record I believe there was an exhibit

and I apologize that I canZt name the exhibit

number for you right now that idenifies what

a one year storm is f what a three year stOrIT

is~ and l-lha a five year storm is in that

county and I apologize that I cant come up

with the exhibit number for you right now

JUDGE SHEEHAN vlell whats your

recolecion about it irhat it says eve if we

dont know the exhibit right now 111 just

trying to get a bead on how -- whether its

typically dry or typically wet there With

rain

MS SHAI-fET Your Hono f I cant

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recall I believe its under a~ inch -- around

a~ inch bu~ ca~t say foy su~e I look at

a lot of these for a let opound dipoundfeent areas

and I don~t want to get one mixed up with the

other

JUDGE ~]OGAST vTose testimony

we6 you reerrlg to gtThen you were discusslg

seasonality

MS SHAMET That was testimony of

Mr Martin It is at Remand Transcript 1912

~~d Rema~d Transcript 354

JUDGE STEI f he Board we~e to

conclude tha the evidence in this case meets

the Kennedy est is it necessary for theI

Board to consider whether the evidence meets

the plurality test

18 8HAMET Its the posiio1 of

EPA hat satisfying either test will establish

geographic jurisdiction under the Clean Water

Act As the Board noted all courts that have

so held have held tha~ if one meets re

Kennedy Tests then t~ats satised Ir

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a~swer actually to one of your questions I

1think Judge Steir there is one case It S an

unreported case out of the District of Hawaii

that has held that the Kennedy Test is lircited

to isolated waters and hat Y0l otherwise

apply to Scalia Test and that is Sierra vs

COJ1ty of Honolulu 2008 us Distcict EX=S

64262 1 and we would just note that that case

is inconsistent with the governing circuit

lali ts tle 9h Circuit and we believe its

inconsistent with Headlesburg and Moses but

you did ask lthether there was any case that

discussed he Sca=--~a test and that is the

only one at least Im aware of To answer

your question we believe t11at satisfying the

Kennedy Iest wOll-~d be sufficient and it would

not be necessary to reach the Scalia Test i

however we do beLeve thas weve satisfied

boh in this case and that ei ther test will do

it All through

JUDGE SHEEHAN Can you poi~t us iL

the record to what may not be a gap but it

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looks like a bit of a gap at least from the

briefs There I s a lot of testimony -- a lot of

discussion in your brief about the history

the history on the site water on the site

for exa~pe a 1953 p~cto s~ows di~ch O~e had

water I a 1937 photo one two and four had

water 1920 f USGS map had five -- ditch five

had water And then so we leap from sixty f

seventy years ago to the present decade

oegirning in 1999 middotJ~el a buner of inspectio1B

occurred mainly in 99 I and there was some

hopscotching and then they e~ded in 2007 So

he~e --- at least from the bries treres a

fairly big gap between the very very historic

taps and photos I and then ~he 1999-on

inspections and That they showed What about

the intervening

HS SHlIiCET - believe tha~ we also

discussed the USGS maps in 1994 which were

the most recent maps prior to activity As

YOUY HO1ort s aware from the Boards decisio1

in Bricks its inCUInbent upon us to show what

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the wates Jere lLlte before the activity f not

after the activity

JUDGE SHEE~~ Right bue the

before here is well before Thats my

~estion I dont see much except for that 94

map

MS SHAMET 1Ind we also used

aeria photography from 1994 and 1995 to

suppla--nent rphere I S been nO evidence in the

record that anything changed between 1994 and

1995 and the acivity in question which

started in I believe December of 98 or

Jaluary cf 1999 Ane I believe responcerts

agreed on the western side of the site in

their expert reper that the configuration

has been co~sistent si~ce 1949 up until the

time of the activity If there are any further

quest iors I woud jus smnnarize again by

pointing out that the facts this case are

veoy very siltple Ttese are wetlands theyre

clearly docJmented as wetlands the

preponderance of the evidence established the~

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as wetlands The preponderance of evidence -shy

tle overwhelming preponderance of the evidence

established that Chese wetlands are

performing actual documented functions The

very significant nexlJS that Justice Kennedy

described in h~s opinion The evidence in this

case shows that these wetlands are physically

adjacent to tributaries These are ditches

they are rranmade bu~ wo~d ~ust note that

iJ Ra9a~os itself the ditches were manmade

and no justices voted about that They flow

waking dista1ce to tradi tionally r~avigable

waters and 7hey are jllrisdictional Thank

you

MS v-JILCHER May it please the

cOJgt IrJClnt to t~lank couJsel for -aising the

tabletop analogy necause I forgot to This is

at a divide It is twenty feet above sea

level It 8 a watersted divde lke he

cortinental divide such hat water is flowirg

away it is not at the bottom of anything It

is nQ a marsh it is EDt a bog it is Lot a

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swarrcp i1-is is ar~ area where there is no

abili ty for the fJetland to capture and keep

pollutants out of a Y1avigable water because it

lrsef is a the very head of the watershed

And so trying 0 -- f you Jere able to be

there and see that~ you woald understand that

its not got the same type of functions and

values as some area ad) aca1t to below I

cach1g f pYEvertng po=-l-ltion cori1g frou a

10 of upstream areas While thats not

parricularly significant

JUDGE SHEEHIlll Havent yo just

helped ma~e te argumelOt that with gravity

lorking as it 60es any discharge of a

po1hltant up high wotld have made its way dOlJID

low f to a navigable water

MS WILCHER Yes so this is not

a rrounanols area fh=-s is a very slight

slope 11 fact to the naked eye it s almostt

hard to see a slope

JUDGE SHEEHAN Why does flow

matter as significant ~exus goes

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HS VrJCHER We11 the amount of

rur~offf qJie fr-ankly r~at would occur can

matte w~th regacd to that I do want 0

address a few absolutely incorrect things that

were stated and a couple misconceptions Let

me start with the mischaracterization of the

axpert witnesses that were hired in 2007

There seems to be some attempt to imply that

hiri1g differe1t expert witnesses to deal with

wtether this is ju-iscicto1al under Rapanos

is the same as having expert witnesses to

testify whether or not this area met the

former -- the actual definition of a wetland

Theyre two different things You can have a

wetland and it ca1 still not be

jClrisd~ctional So itS our hope that the

Board doesnt misconstrue that to say that by

hiring different fgtxperts you were trying to

get a different result which was not the case

-- its simply that if youre looking at how

much flow what the funcions of values ar-e

its a very differert thing fran sorteone who

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caL go ou~ a~d do the soil samples to

determine whats hydric and whats not

Seco~d jus~ as with regard to the

credibility of the witnesses just as there

were some -- a case perhaps whee ac-I expert

witness misstated something or changed its

rnird 1 so did some of the government I s expert

wi tnesses misstate something that then had to

be co-ected So did the brief that said

that took the word and and changed it to

Or witr regard to what Justice Kennedy hadI

written So I dont think that that in and of

itself has any significarce wi th regard to the

credibility of a witness tihen we are talking

abcu lGVJ fa this land is from a navigable

water counsel has mentioned that it S 2600I I

feet middotrhich is about half a mile or 4200

feet which is close to a mile -- thats not

to reac-t a navigabe water Let us be clear

That is to reach something that is not

necessarily an intermittent area4 EPA

stipulated l the stipulations dated

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Septewer 8th 03 that the water body

depicted and ]i5 is nurrbers 37 and 38 that

the water bodies depicted as these drainage

ditches on the site are depicted by the USGS

topa rEap at the 3allary Hill (Phonetic)

quadrangle as a broken blue line and that a

broken bae line denotes an irtermi ttent

stream These are intermittent streams ard as

Justice Sheehan has correctly noted Judge

Scalia says n mary circ1JIstarces that

intermittent streams are not jurisdictional

waters of the U S HmAever if we tun to irlhat

Custice Kennedy says thats rhece we kind of

get into the eitheror what we also find

there is a great discussion by Justice Kennedy

loiClself on 1e Ccrps definition of a

tributary Counsel was referring to the

drainage ditches as t-ibutaries ard Justice

Kennedy makes it c~ear that the corps

definition of tributary that was in effect at

tr~e time this decision was -rritter middotJsing he

high watermark was not appropriate I and would

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

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lead in fact to too broad a definition of what

was jurisdictional i~ and of itsef under the

Clean Water Act And theres we dont have

time to read it all but Im sure youve

probably ead it more tirres t~an have

aryay iled also jtst lke to mention tha

qui te frankly the evidence that has been

introduced in this case is the type of

evidence the Cour was r~opng would not be

Csedo prove jurisdictior on such an

important issue and that is its speculative

Its not -- were not arguing that wetlands

arent irrportart J we arent arguing that

wetlands aralt valuabe anc you know in

1990 wed say regulate because we had the

legal authority to do so This again is one

of tlese cases t1at sirrply wishing that 1_e

Q C d h dfe I~upreree o~r~ naa sal some ~~g 1 ~eren~ y

does not make it so This is what the Court

said -- thats the final word on the mater

whatever we decide ~t is bu it S tre firai

word and we c~~t change that regardless ofl

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRA-SCRIBERS

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how mportant or ho wrong someone may think

that it auld be To other quick points to

mention and that is EPA knew about this work

that was going on in February of 1999 and

that is in Jeff Lapps testimony tn Volume 1

page 167 through 169 so EA did kno Most of

t~e woyk was completed by Aprii or May of that

year before EPA every CaIne out to the site

and it wasnt until 2000 chat a notice of

violation was issued

JUDGE SHEEHamp1 So why does that

matte- That is an enforcement choice EPA makes

every day of the week and its not part of

the record i~ has nothing to do with whether

or not the Kennedy or Scalia or any other test

was met It really doesnt seem to bear on the

legal issues here

11S vIILCHER Fair enough For

purpose of ~his arg~~e~tl for t~e pur~ose of

today youre probaDly right J-luge But i~

does matcer if were talking about typical

practice of EPA and while Im well aware that

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

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theres no requirement to take an enforcemer-t

action in a1ything less trar this period of

statute of limitations if in fact this was as

egregious and as violative and as problematic

as counsel appears to make it seem then EPA

did have every opportlli~ity to stOy that and

in ITany many cases vlhen EP1 sees a clear

violation of the law I they simply issues a

cease and desist order and in a case like

Rapanos in the Rapacos case you have people

who are going out anc taking action and

violating the wetlands law after theyve

received many state and federal cease and

desis orders so the facts of this case are

so di==ere~t from the facts of tha~ case Here

we have someone who was trying to comply with

the law as it was written at the time in my

view he was complying with the law as it was

wri ten at tlat time actG the fact tha EPA

didnt like ~he way the law was written and

what it said and what the courts were

deciding does not give hem authority to come

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

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in and regulate after the fact

JUDGE WOLGAST Counsel thank you

youre Olt of if you could make your

final point n just r~e next thirty secords J

I think you saie you had two I may be

mistaken

MS WILCHER Thank you Well we

are talkirg about jurisdictio1 I do think

tha tte overall =-ssJe of equity cotes i1to

play Ar~d knowing -- even krowing what the

jurisdiction was at the time of the activities

undertaken is really kind of an unc I Qar

matter Were still struggling with what

j Clrisdict iOI is Re9rettably toat s always

been t~e problem with this program

problem Igtli th this progral7l is that Corgress did

not give us clear direction and clear guidance

to either EPA or to the Boyds or to anyone

else in the regulative corrmlUnity and I t-hink

that s a factor certainly that the court Iblil

consider ard should corsder I when making a

decision on issues of liability and in this

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND tRANSCRIBERS

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case we would ask that you do so Thank you

J1DGE voLGAST Thank YOJ Cours

thank yOJ for your arguUent and the case is

now submitted

MS DURR All rise Session of the

Environmenta Appeals Board nmv stands

adjourned

(Whereupon the above-entitled

matter was concluded at 11 16 am)

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activities 79 11

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activity 6920 70 1 bull

Page 81

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Page 82

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bull Neal R Gross amp Co Inc 202-234-4433

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Page 83

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Nea~ R Gross amp Co Inc 202-234-4433

Page 84

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CERTIFICATE

This lS to certify tha~ ~he foregoi~g transcript

in the matter of Snith Farm 3nterprises ILC

Hon Anna Wolgast E-wironmenta Appeals Judge

Date Jaly 20 2010

Flace Washingson DC

represens the ful and complete proceedings of the

aforementio1cd marter as reported and reduced to

typewriting

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCR8ERS

1323 rOOE iSLAND AVE_ NW (202 234-4433 WASHtGON DC 20005-3701 fNWnnalrqft)6Scom

Page 15: BEFORE THE ENVIRONMENTAL APPEALS BOARD IN ... By...MS. DURR: Environmental Appeals Board of the U~ited States Environmental Protec~ion Agency is now in session for oral argument, in

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JUDGE SHEEHAN But the Kennedy

tea says that if wetlands aloLe or in

combination with other wetlands have that

kind of effect

115 WILCHER Wetlands alone or in

corrbinato1 with otrer wetlands or in

combination lith the uplands the arguments

~ha t tbey ace laking wOClld apply equally to

uplands and as the court noted in the Rapanos

decision applying some of these tests as the

government histori cally has applied them to

say that they are jurisdictional sirrply

because hey have value and may be somewhat

miles aay hut may have some connection or

some val~e ~i~es away being speculative in

nature does rot cause it to be

jurisdictional and it sa~d i~ so the en~ire

United States would be considered regulated

llilder tbe Clear~ ater Act

JUDGE SHEEHAN Theres ~~ theres

one and cot to get in the vay of Judge

Steins question but Qne of the exhibitsr

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Remand Exhibit 937 shows a very honeycombed

tissue through the Srith Farm weta1ds going

ou~ to the two rivers and then to the bay I~

looks sure _ surely to me it looks from this

exhibit and otes as if tl1e wetlands are very

proximate to and affect directly the waters

below Car you address that

KS WILCE2R I wil Those naps

do not show any actual measurable connection

nor do they show a contir1oJS surface

conE6ction r~avigable vrates

JUDGE SHEEHAN Why does it have to

be a surface connection tilly car_ t it be stbshy

surface if theres a hydrological link

MS WILCHER But theres ~o

showir~g of a silD-surface hydroogica liak

either Theres a total lack of evidence of

probative dence i~ th~s case to actualy

tie that paricu=-ar vletland Co a rcavigable

water which by the way you would have to gor

fcom tha wetland to a drair~age ditcr~ anc

went out there and traipsed down the site

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before I came here to talk to you about this

but youd have to go fr~~ that -- b~t this ~s

all en the record -- YOlld have to go fron

that area that might be-- that part of it that

might be considered a we~land~ through

drainage di tches t1at are only inerrrit ert

in nature and t1e evidef~ce is clear that

theYre only intermittent in nature including

the USGS blue line dotted lines and then they

would have to go from tlere to Bailey Creek

non- navigable to Drurr Point Creek

non-navigable] then to tributaries of the

westeGl branch of the Elizabeth River I which

is t~e f rst tne you I d hi a ~avigable wate

If go in the opposite

direction they would have to go from drainage

ditches to Quake~ Neck Creek to ~eans Bra~ch

which are tributaries 0 tne ravigable water

the Nansemond River 14d so there there is

no proof that there is a connection

Things could lave been done Tne-e

cOmiddotJld have been dye raclgs there cOlld have

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been a~l kinds of evidence hey could have

taken samples they could have done

quantitative analysis There is no chemical

evidence there is no physical evidence there

is no biological evidence that connecs this

to a navigable water f and therein lies the

problem

JJDGE TO~GAST Justa if I

could follow up on that before we get back to

cred~bility iss~es

MS HLCHER Okay

JUDGE WOLGAST Are you saying that

the fact they floTlI throJgh ditches is a

jurisdictional problem

MS 1tILCHER Not particularly

JUXE vIOLGASI And the1 get ~ ing

back to the testimony that Judge Sheehan was

referring to where JIdge Morar was referring

to the testimony of Mr Rhodes and Mr Martin

that the property provides flood storage flow

moderaion carbOIl sequestration vlater

purification denitrification what I want to

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undsystard aboJt your argument 1s are these

aspects insufficient or would they be

sufficient if in your mind there was more

evidence of the connection of these attributes

to the Nansemond or Elizabeth Rivers

MS iILCHER EPA -- the govenment

cant simply say that wetlands are valuable

because they are-- help prevent flooding and

not show that they would help prevent flooding

in this particular case and that it would

significantly help prevent flooding in t~is

partcular case lrJha ttey have done toe

Drie is to siIply lay down he well-knoJl

attributes a~d valuable functions and values

of wetlands and said therefore this is

having a significant effect on navigable

~ivers Theye is not a co~~ection they have

lot snoltm by a1y credible evidence cause and

effect of any sigrifcant iIEpact tpon thef

navigable rivers

JUDGE SHEEHAN But you make

again a very theoretical argument about the

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fact Chat the goverruuent just argues wetlands

fgelerally but werer t government wi tnesses

crawling allover this property mul iple

times testify~ng at great lengtl lots of

exhibits aerials historc maps and

everythi~g else to show in this case fo~ this

property there was trat link Its hard to

believe with all that 11Bssive Estimony and

getting to ~he credibility issue that he

governrrent doesn~t have a pretty solid case

rat hat nexus sat) sfyilg the Kennedy test

exists

MS WILCHER It is hard to

believe I totally agree It is hard to

believe Tle governmert has had unfettered

aCCess to this property for over a decade and

have failed 0 develop flmr drainage elements

they cant show how illuch flows off the site

they cant show vhat type of sediment runoff

might have occurred at ~he site ~hey ca~tt

show what type of water retention is teld Jy

the site t~ey have been unable to show any

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ecoogical cC1nection 1tith regard to wildlife

there was a Woodcock seen on the site There

is absolutely -- and its amazing to me hat

tr~ere is a void

JUDGE STEIN But isnt the test a

nexus a significant nexus not this

sJbstantial inpacts est that I hear wove]

through some of your statements and T dont

-- when I go back and I look at the Kennedy

opinion you knot] and some of he hings t1at

are cited I dont necessarily see that that

test requires the level of proof that youre

stggesing is reqJired ny hat test So

perhaps you could explain to me based on the

Kennedy opinion how you get from there to the

level of proof Lhat you re a5~ing for f just to

establish jurisdiction

MS WILCHER Certainly

JUDGE STEIN I mean I we re not

here to determire you know penalty or

anything else were here just to figure out

if youre even i~ tbe door

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MS IILCHER Yes understand

Ie 1 1 what Justice Kennedy said was to talk

abmlt he fJay the Corps nac typically

regulated wetlalds and then to say absent

more speciic regulations however the Corps

must establish a significant nexus on a case

by case bBSS wler it seeks to regulate

wetlands based on adjacency to non-navigable

tributaries and then it goes on to say given

the potential over breath of the Corps yen s

regulations this showing is necessary to

avoid unreasoDable applications of the

statute

The justice wrote I no~ just a

~exus if the COurt had only said there has to

be a nexus then o~e would have a different

burden of proof in this case the court said

a significant nexus and we have to assnne

that a significant nexus is meaningful that

those words mean SOIEethi1g So theres a -- at

least a two-step process One to show that

theres a nexus and the other is to show that

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its significant and that is what the record

is devoid 0 in this particular case

JUDGE SlEIN But its not a

significa1t impact its a significant nexus

MS iILCHER Thats right a

significant nexus And the sigrificart rexus

must -- and if YOu read through the rest of

the case it talks abolt hm -- that in order

to regulate land as water there must be some

type of impact on the water

JUDGE SHEEHAN Justice Kennedy

also uses a phrase that think is pertinent

here r he says that the how -- how the proof is

determined has to be done in a practical way

ard i almost sounds as if what you I re

requiing is that the governrrent set up flow

meers or pour a vial of discharge into a

ditch and see if it eventually ends up in the

Chesapeake or do something on a very

impractical scale to prove ~he connectio~

MS WILCHER You know this is a

really important issue The governrrent has to

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do sOIething oJer than to make allegations r

especially in a case where youpoundre dealing with

constitutional issues such as privae property

rights and how one car jse his own property

or hers and in this case I there are lots of

things tha~ EPA historically has done for

ypcal NPDES cases But when you before he

Board on a NPDES case theres at least some

measure If they had had pictures that there

las a plurne comir_g off of this wetlar~d if

theyd done any flow calculations if theyd

had any physical chemical biological

evidence of a nexJS and a signiican- nexus to

the navigable waters which again( are not the

ditches they are the ditches that flow to the

creek that flow 0 the creek that flow 0 the

navigable waters j then it would be a different

case but that is not what has happened in

this case

JUDGE IJOLGAST Well as you say

the goverIl1lent obviously has the burden of

proof i~ a~ eLfo~cerne~t case l but is this the

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same type of evidence that you thirk a

_a~Qowne~ should Lndertake I mean obviouslY

they have the burden to obtain a permit where

there is potential jurisdiction

I~S ~JILCaER Btt if the person

doesnt obtain a permit ~~ and the government

thinks that theyre i~ error again the

government always has the burden of proof

JUDGE vJOLGAST Right but J 1m

talking about getting a -- yOJ know starding

in the landowners shoes before weve ever

gotten to an enforceme1t case it -- it I

mean I ~h~nk theres some iSS48 with getting

back to the Supreme Court case that one of

he things that were concerned about - at

least lJustice Scalia pointed to was how much

evidence time money it takes to vJOrk

thro~gh ~h~s process and it sou~ds like the

yeLl know r the advocacy here is that there

should be more not less

)15 ~JLC1ER There stou1d be

something dore by the government in thi s

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regayd to actually prove a nexus and a

sgnificant nexus ard in this ease I canr

assuye you Judge Wolgast that the l~downer

has go~e above and beyond the oall of duty

going to the Corps time after ti~e having the

Corps ou to tr~e site and having spent talk

about the time and money and investmert having

his case as understand it having spent

over $800 000 in litiga~ion costs to try to

pr-otect what was legal at tl~e time that it was

aone and so -- so there is a burden

The governme1t has the burden aid

in this case in this par~icular case they

failed to meel it I don I t know why I haven [t

been involved that lor~g ~ would speculate

tl1at by the time he Rapanos case cane along

it V~as jlSt too hard to go back and find the

type of probative evidence that would carry

the cay_

I do not necessaily thirk that

its an impossible tas~ There have been ot~er

cases that ve reviewed aihere the goverrUent

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has irtroduced evidence of the poundows tr~e

amount of drainage that has occurred how much

water might be taken up by a wetland area$ but

none of that was done in thi s particular case

and again we can only speculated why that

was the case

JDDGE STIN How does tr_s S~xth

Circuit decision in the Cundl f f matter bear on

your view that the -- you need some sort of

laboratocy araysis to prove h~s7

MS ~VILCHER in that

particular easel you dont have as I ~ecall

the -- the disarce roIT a navigable waer

tha t we have here [ and I think the farther you

are away from a navigable water the harder it

is 0 prove tha~ theres any impact on that

navigable water and in this -- again in this

case they are far away from a navigable

water and I think toe reaSC1 tha~ we don

see the p=oof is because its not there itS

not developable and that is why it is not

Cere Did yOl wart De to ~~

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JUDGE STEIN I do wact you to get

the credibility question

MS bull WILCHER I dian t t want to

forget your - shy

JUDGE STEIN No while we we~e on

this topic why cor t t yOJ addres s the

credibility question

MS vILCHER I think its an

important question IC t S a real important

question and that is simply that s even though

the regtllatior~s do provide that typicaily when

the ALJ hears the witnesses and makes

determinations 0 ~~eir credib~~ity that

typically this Board will defer to that

However in this case a carefctl review of the

record shows that the ALJs just got it wrong

and it is within this Boards prerogative to

look at the -- look at t1e factors tha

that the ALJs used in making their

deterninatior and make a judgreJt aboJt

wl1ether those factors are sufficient

A couple of examples There was a

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mar who had Iived OT the farm for h~rty years

who testified that he I d walked over the farm

for thir~y years and testified that in fact

Ithe streams J or the drainage di tches were

intermittent in nature and did not carry water

I - 1 h d - a11 th e trre bull e __ t e JU ge ~n tHe QeClS10n

said well I think hes a nice man I think

hes beholden to the Smi ths f and he was just

Ollt or a wa so totally just discounted his

testimony saying he WBS just out on a walkJ

as if that meant t~at somebodywQuldnt no~ice

DGE ~vOGAST ~ Are yot saying

though that it would have to carry water all

tre time

MS vHLCHER No no But but

it f s clearly -- is Eot a navigable water lor

it is adjacent nor is the wetland adjacent to

a navigable water in this case It flows

anything t~at =lows opound= of t~at a~ea that has

been considered to be wetland by the

goverr-Uent flows -rxough drainage ditches

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that are only intermittent in nature and

~herefore are ~ot co~sidered to be navigable

watsYs clea~ly urder the Rapanos decison

JUDGE SHEEHAN But if the man

walking the land said that they were

intermittent and youre saying intermittent

doesnt matter

I~S IgtlILCHER Were saying that -shy

Judge Cha~eski as I recall said tha~ there

was a c01tinuOU5 flow of 5088 kind isnt that

-- d~~lt J~dge Char~eski say that

WOLGAST lrJell Justice

Scalia said that even after that -shy

HS WILCHER Right right

JUDGE WOLGASl That that

seasonal flow could establish jurisdiction

~nder the pluralitoes test

148 t-JILCEER BJt there s not beenj

seascnal flow established -=-n this case Yot

have somebody going out there en particular

days after these ditches have been dug which

we all know alter the flow in drainage after

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the eLi tches are dug ftJaer goes to the lowest

level and so theres going to be more water

draining OU= of there t~a~ ~here would have

been in 1998 and 1999 and that -- that is

clear ~tat ~tere is no ev~de~ce ac the time

this was done they were -- they were anything

but inerYlitten and here l s no j1risdictiola1

connection that they have proven to date

JUDGE ~JOLGAST And what do you

think they would have had to have shown to

show seasonal flow

MS ~IILCHER Well they could

have done something more than go out there

nine times over tbe course of a year rrhey

could have had aerial photographs taken Ihey

cod have -- weil first yOl have the uSGS -shy

you have the USGS maps as showing its

inteYrnittent and theres lierally no

testimony en the record right now to show that

theyre anything but interrrdtent Ot-her than

to say that if somebody goes out there ~ine

Cimes and looks at the flow and sees water

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then -- agair~1 keeping ir mind this was years

atel 1_8 dainage d=- tches tver-e dtg ha t were

channeling more water into the old one through

seven drainage areas there B nothing tof

establish what was the~e at ~he time in 1998

a~d 1999

JUDGE VlOLG~rST And I think

isnt this what courts are struggling with in

the sense that its -- its one thing to say

~ts ~~ter~itte~tf b~t is that good enough I

mean I dont you have to figure out just how

much flow in you know what period of time

or the idea that -- I dont -- if someoae

says t~at its intermitte~t Irr not sure that

means its ir~ or out without further evidence

MS WILCHER Right Well that

shows really the that shows arguably a

cQnYlecion Bu how rrlcr =ow is going through

there whether sediment loading is going

through there whether theres an ecological

connection through there all these whethers

lead to whether t~e~e is a sig~ificant nex~s

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to a navigable water and if you look at some

of the other cases ~here has been that kiLd of

information introduced and in this case there

is none

JUDGE vJOLG1ST hhat case are you

thinking of

MS vJILCiER I thirki1g maybe

t was the Precon case ir - - in the Eastern

District of Virginia Its on appeal in the

Fourth Circuit I may r~ve been ~hat BJt

I 11 be happy to provide some cases -- a case

or cases later on that show the type of

evidence that tas been introdJced because I

remember reading about them and cant think of

the name right now

TlDGE SHEEIiAN I Vant to go back

for a moment to Judge Stein J s question about

credibility

gtIS CLCHER YOS

JUDGE SHEEHAN So ALJ Moran sat

through days and days of testimony on the

bench a lot of pecple ~n ~~at witness chair

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Hes there hes on he scere hes

~nterpreting the way the witnesses speak and

their basic credibility which you can only do

face to face in that way Wha~ is it about

what happened there that causes you to think

theres sOne way or some reason for as not to

credit the typ~cal deferehce we would extend

There must be some exception here that we ~eed

0 know about for that to happen

MS WLCHER tAJel1 r ard there are

a few facts that I think would be relevant to

your consideration in that case In the first

instance some of these wi~nesses that the ALJ

deter~ined were not credible --Jere stipJlated

as being expert vtitnesses and hat shows at

least sorre level of credibility in the mind of

the government w th regaro to whetJ~er they

were experts in the field

Second some of the criticisms

in one case a criticism that an ALJ made of an

expert wi tness was that he had not beer~ 0 the

site often enocgh yet vith one of the

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gover~ors -~ goverG~entls expert witnesses

that person had been to the site less times

t1an t1e Srith Farms expert witress A1C SO

there is a confounding sense that in this

particular case for whatever reason if the

experts agreed ~ th r~e goverr_rne1t f they were

credible and that if they di~~t they were

not

It just seems highly unlikely that

every single witness iltroduced by Smith

Far~s and Ive had the pleasure of working

wi th Mr Boyd and it lS just I think

statistically urEkely that one could End

that many unmiddotmiddotmiddotcredible witnesses and in thisf

case I do not believe that they were not

credib2e I believe they were as credible ald

as I mentioned in some cases were stipulated

in beirg expert w~t~esses ~~

JUDGE SHEEHAN So you didnt

believe they were

HS WICHER I did not bel ieve

they were not credible so I believed that

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they were credible And -- and it is sOIEewhat

confoundirg other than to say that the

closest thing that I could figure out was that

if hey supported t~e governments viev tey

were credible and if they did not support the

governments Vlew I they were not

CJDGE trrOGAST But dien f t Judge

Moran find that -- and to generalize ---- that

the witnesses failed to establish that to the

exent t1ere were weta1ds they -lere isolated

by on-hydric soil lasnt that a central part

of his credibility determination

MS ~vILCHER Well trat S O1e of

the findings that Judge Moran made but in

this paricular case keep in mind its not

Smi Parms tha-c has 0 show that there is a

break or a barrier -- its the government who

has to show that the~e is a con~ection

JUDGE liOLGAST Of

understand Right

HS IIILCHER So theres cerainly

pockets of non-hyd~ic soil in tte area and

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for SOle reaSCl EPA _ ar~d again this is just

ki~d of amazing to me

spent this long on that EPA did not go out

there and do a typical delneaion of the

site and this is something that is cypically

done Its amazing that EPA did not issue a

cease and desist order as soon as t~ey ~~ew

abouc it There are many things that to me

are amazing about this case that quite

frarky I are he easor that I came nere to

argue it Because lIm a strong believer in

protecting the Clean Water Act and in

protec~ing lteta-ds and you mayor may lOot

know from my history I I bear a lot of scars

from having trIown myself in the body of

wetlands protection bac~ in the days ana I

still believe its an important thing to do

But I also believe its important to follow

~~e rule of law and ~n chis case Mr Boyd

made every effort to follow the rule of law

and I bel ieve he did and when it did not work

out tte way that EPA wanted the law to be

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this enforcement action came forward at a

time -- and had they intervened early on i~

t~is case they cou~d have stopped They knew

months before the work was cOITpleted -- hey

knew months before the work was completed that

there was ditching and draining going on

t~ere and trey did no move in quickly to try

to resolve that case ar~d they could have -shy

they could have stopped most of the so called

harm that they are now alleging but chose not

to do so ~~ey dd ~ot do a deineaLion they

did not inroduce proof that this particular

part of property has a significant nexus to

jurisdictional waters of the United States to

a navigable water of the United States I and

thats the reason I~ he~e

JJDGE VJOLGASI I see your time is

expired if theres no other questions

MS WILCHER Thank you

MS S~J~ET~ Good morning You=

Honors My name is Stefania Shaliat and I

represent Region III in this matter

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specifically the complainants who are the

division directors for the Environmental

Assessment a1d Irr~ovation Divisio1 and he

vater Protection Division I at EPA Regio11 III

With me at counsel table Id like to

i~troduce DO1la Carner-Tal f who is regulatory

co-msel for the Nc-folk District Army Corps of

Engineers and Karen ~lendelowskl gt who is with

the office of general cour~sel and also we

have a disirglshed g1e8 1$ d lke to

introd~ce -- si~~ing behind me is Dr Dennis

Whigham with the Smithsonian Environmental

Resea=cr Cente- Your Honors responders have

do~e ~~ if I ca~ get in a couple points -- a

good job of obfuscating what are really very I

very simple facts here The simple facts are

hat these are tllelands perfouuiq docurrenced

functions that are delivered to tributaries

These wetlands are adj acent physically

trose trib-ltaries f ard those

tr lbtacies flow to traditiorally navigable

waters to the West 2600 feet away to the

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East 4200 feet away In other words the are

wetlands adjacent to tributaries that low

waki1g clstance to tr-adi ional1y navigable

waters These Vetlfu1ds were jurisdictional

under SWANCC as respondent conceded in Clean

~later Act Appeal mmber 05-05 when respondent

reseved argll1snt on jtrisdicto1 but chose

not to raise it un~il there was a change in

case law They continue to be jurisdictional

under any standard enunciated by he Supreme

Court in Rap~~os The qJan~u~ of proof offeree

by the complaina1ts i1 this matter not only

exceeds preponderance of the evidence it

exceeds any quantum of proof required by

Rapanos In fact t far exceeds it Another

thirg that is obscured in the ar9J11ent here by

the respondents is that up until 2007

respondents had a different set of expert

witnesses It las tlose expert witresses that

coroplainalts stipulated 1heir expertise was

in wetlands identification and the connection

of wetlands to waters of the uniced States

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Ihose witnesses largely agee with

complainac1t I s version of the facts on the

ground ae-d i wasnt until 2007 when

respondents hired a new set of expert

witnesses that any real dispute arose about

what exactly was going on in the site There

was dispute about ithat hat nean f but not

exacly what the physical characteristics of

t21e si te ere

J1DGE WOLGAST Counsel coud you

address Ms wilchers points that while there

may be flow moderation carbon sequestration

there may be some evidence that the government

hasnt shmlTI a nexus between those

characterist~cs and the ~avigable waters

vIS SHAME Sure First of alI

the evi6erce of Je fuYlctions beirg performed

on this S1 te is not speculative There are

photo after photo and testimony after

testimony the governments evidence is based

or established scientific literature that

identifies something called field indicators

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-- physical characteristcs on the ground -shy

that when identified correlate to a specific

functi~n being formed by the wetland In this

case there are three Tr~e first was fow

noderaiou and one of the physical

characteristics thez-e would be such things as

ponding you see a lot of later being

captured in low levels depressional levels

withir the wetland Tle record conta1s dozens

of photos of that The secord is

denitrification and that is the microbes

llptaking nitrogen in the soil That indicator

is something called modelirg i1 he soil It sI

a red spotch Essentially it IEeans that iron

is there That evidence comes not only from

the complainants but if one were to reviel

the soi 18 expert froIT respordent Dr Parkers

O~ I-fr arlter f s firs expe~t repo-t ir

20C3 he describes modeling in his sails The

third is primary production That is the1

contribution of a food source Taking

transforming organics that a2e in the _- in

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nature into a food source in water that then

tralsports that food source dowYlsream to

higher trophic organisms The best evidence of

that actually comes from one of respondents

experts Dr Cahoot 1110 photographed it

leaving the site I cant find the photo at

the marneYlt f blt I 11 describe what he says

Foaing a he confluence of the ditch

leaving the property with ditches along the

property boundary near the railroad This foam

vias also sampled and examined microscopically

--- it contained primary plant debris some

peller ald rllnero-lS sma oil droplets These

oil droplets in my opinion were probably

plant oils derived froI decomposition of the

organic matter in this area That description

correlates perfectly with the description in

the testimony in tZ1e remand hearng about what

primary production s the transport of

particulate and dissolved organics downstream

as a food sOJce So the -Jse 0 the -- t~1e

functions this case are not speculative

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theyre clearly being per-formed theyre

clearly being cocC1ented as beir~g perforrred on

this wetland Theres also evidence of the

hydrologic connection between this wetland

the ibuaries and the downst-eam

trad~tionally r~avigable waers Again that

comes both frOIE complainant ~ s experts as well

as some of respondents experts one of

respondent I s experts described tr_at hydrologic

co~nectio3 as such He descrbed the wetland

as a table tcp on which somebody pours water

the water comes off of that table top into

the ditches and then tansports down to the

taditional1y navigable waers The sane

expert lgtIr Wolf also agreed that the

wetlands on the site were in fact

hydrologically conYlected to the di tches wr~ich

forrr tributaries and lJlere n fact adjacs1t to

them So we also have fUTIction ard we have

transport Now with respect to Ms Wilchers

corrment -shy

JUJGE WOLGAS~ is YoDr

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posi tion on the type of evidence that you

need to show nexus of

characteristics you see on site to the

navigable waters

gt1S SHAtvET My positio1 is tha we

met it exactly and I would refer you to

Justice Kennedys opinion Justice Kenledy

ide~tified the type of functions that he would

consider to form a significant nexus

traditional navigable waters and those are

p~ecisely the functions that were identified

on this site Specifically Justice Ker-nedy

refers to slowirg COt-C of surface runoff r

filtration and purification -- that would be

in on 547 US 773 to 75 He sta~es with respect

to weta1ds f the rationale for the Cleal ~fater

Act regulation is as the Corps as recognized

that vetlands can perforrl cri tica2 functioES

re2-ated to the integrity of other waters

functions such as pollutant trapping -- in

other words l denirifcatior~ -- flood control

flow moderation and ruriOff storage

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Ther-efore the types of functions that we

docrraented as beng performed or this site are

precisely the ypes of unctiors tha Jusice

Ken1edy ide1tified J in his opinion as the

type of functions that form a significant

nexus

JUDGE SHEEHAN In in your

brief on page 46 you say that the Kennedy

Test requiEs weta1ds cont-ibutions to the

physical c1emical or biologic in-egrity of

doOrIlstream waters -- is it nor or Hand Your

brief says or

MS SHAMET The brief says II or -shy

JUDGE SHEEHAN Because if it can

De just one of those -shy

SHA4ET I believe Justice

Kennedy did use and however it is c2ear

that he does not require a function to

contribute to all ~hree factors and chats

clear from the function he identifies

JUDGE SHEEHAN Then why did he say

and

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MS SHAMET I think he said and II

but he had a comraa and a1d he was -eferring

to a list of examples rather than a standard

i1ith respect to Ms Wilchers cormnent that we

dont have any photographs of pltLnes as I

indicatedf one were to trt 0 R Ex 28 f

which llnfortunatey I can f find right now I

ltlhich is Respondent 1 s Exhibit 28 from the

first hearing in 2003 Dr Cahoon provides a

picture of that plume himself I would also

point out that with respect to

denitriication one wouldnt expect to see a

pInrr -- thats the exact point its to hold

Che nitrogen on the wetland -lot send it

downstream

JUDGE STEIN How is the Rapanos

significant nexus test d_fferent if at all

=rom the nexus i~ Rivervew Rverside

Bayview

MS SHAMEl Riverside Bayvie

assumed a nexus based upon adjacencYi in this

case lJustice Kennedy has asked that we

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actually go forward and establish that the

nexus exists rather than simply assuming itI

based On adjacency

JUDGE SHEEHamp~ on page 41 of your

brief you quote some of the tesciroo1Y of the

first ALJ hearing I which sounds a lit~le more

entative to me tha1 youre souidir_g today

about the substa1tial nexus test being met

The brief~ at page 41 reads that these

wetlands are more likely to perform

denitrification more likely to allow for

suspended settlements -- sediments to settle

out~ more likely to support a different suite

of wildlife species that to me is

lar-guage ~rats ~ot qui~e as powerful as

saying there is a substantial nexus met here

that just sounds -- can yo~ address what seems

to be more diffident language in your brief

than what youre articulating today

MS SHAMET Well as Your Honor

pointed out T the language that you pointed to

in the brief is from the 2003 hearing before

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tr~e Rapanos case As the Board is avlare J he

EPP~ agreed and argued that the evidence to

satisfy Rapanos had not been fl11y developed

as of 2003 and this precisely why we

requested a remand

JUDGE SHEEHAN But youre cit i ng

it here filed long after Rapanos as if its

still your position

MS SHAME~ I cited a lot of other

evidence as lJell Your Honor incLuding the

testimory of Mr Rhodes he testi~cny of Dr

~fhigham and the testimony the f1Tther

estimony of Hr Mart So while that is a

piece of evidence it is certainly not the

only evidence cited in our brief

JUDGE WOLGAS~ ~o go back to the

point you were making earlier about how the -shy

in essence the three-part test is the same

type of evidence yo~ would look to to

establish sign~ficant nexus ard Justice

Kernedy did seer to speak to hat saying much

the sarre evidence I referring to tre Corps ssect

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delineation manual type evidence should

P8nnit the establishment of a significant

nexus witr navigable wates

particularly if supplemented by further

ev~dence abou~ the significance of the

tributaries to which the wetlands are

cO11ected How does the gove-nment interpret

the latter part of that quote

MS SILllltlECmiddot I think that the

government needs to show and has shown in

this case that there is an ability of those

trihttayies Co conect the wetlands to a

traditionally navigable water in such a way

that the poundtnctions are delivered In this case

we have certainly shown the hydrologic

cO1nect=-o1 some of respondents expe-ts have

agreed with us that that connection exists and

tha there is sufic8Ylt ~hat there is

water exchange there and weve also shown

that heres proxirrity here again these are

walking distance to traditionally navigable

waters this is not the Rapanos case where it

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traveled 32 miles So we think we have met

that burden here by sho~Jing the hydrologic

connection and showing that these tributaries

are capable of delivering the function With

respect to cr-edibi=-ity and he points that

Your HOlors asked of AS Wilcher I would just

point out tha~ lTudge lvlorans credibility

determination was based on demeanor and also

on the facts of this case An important fact

to note for insta11ce is in the firstF

r~earing in 2003 respondent I s soils exper

who laid a g=id fOJnc 53 ou 55 sarnples

hydric The only two that were non-hydric had

JUDGE STEIN I couldnt hear you

MS SHApoundT Had 53 Oelt of 55 soil

sa~ples he identified as hydric in the site

soEs or ei ther side In the secord heaocilg

Dr Pierce testified that there was

essentially non-hydric soils everywhere And

on cross-examination he was asked didn t youI

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find any hydric soils and he said oc yeah

I found them I just didnt click on my GS

locator and ider~tify where they were and I

just didn It report them He only reported the

non-hydric soEs That is the kind of thing

that happened that caused Jtdge l-loran 0 find

a lack of c-edibility vvlth respect to 9r

Straw Dr Straws expert report disc1ssed

undulations in the landscape that he

interpreted to mean ere were no wetlands

tlere On the sand he conceded trat there

were no u1dulaions on tr~e landscape -- he had

mis~nterpreted the aeria= photo More

importantly he conceded ~hat he knew about

ha t erroy before the hearing and leverf

corrected it until cross-exa~ination Judge

Moran had ample basis for finding no

credibility on those witnesses

JUDGE SEIN Is it your view tha~

the Board has no authority to overrale an

ALJs credibility determination

MS SHAl-1ET No YOJr Honor the

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Board reviews he case de novo lffuile the

Board certainly defer to the ALJ r s credibili ty

determination what I run saying that in this

case t~ere is no basis for overturn~~g it

JUDGE STEIl If we were to

overturn it -- a credibility determination

what kinds of factors r it your view s1ould 18

be taking into aCCo4nt

MS S~~~ET I would think you

oelld be looking to see whether or not the ALJ

has a rational basis oh gosh I hate to use

legal standards like that -- but some sort of

bass or hich he based his credibiliy

deerrtination that he explained why there was

a lack of credibility and I think in this

case he did so amply

JUDGE SHEEHAJ If Ms v~i 1 cher S

correct characterizing the way testimony

cedibclity went i soanced almost like a

hundred percent credit to government

witnesses and practically zero to

respondens witnesses f tratg acctrate

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jus stipulat-=-ng 0 trat assumption - - if

t~atfs accu~ate would that be a basis fer not

allcwing deerence to Jdge Morans

credibility determinations if its so

lopsided

ocs SH_~ET In this case I would

say no just simply because in this case we

have a classic battle of the experts I but

oddly enough the ba~~ling experts are al on

respondents side And )hat we have are

experts whD ~estif~ed in 2007 who flat

disagreed wit the testimony of respordent S

experts in 2003 without any atterrpt by the

2007 experts or respondents to reconcie

that testiITony Given that circumstance it sf

not surp-isirg that the experts in 2007 s

testimony were given very litte weight One

of the things that Hs ltJilcher referred 0 was

unfettered access to the site If anyone had

u~fettered access to the site~ it was

respondent and yet there are no photos in the

record showing the streaL~S leaving the site

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dry except during a drought

JUDGE VOLGAST But her point was

tha t the goverrunert ~as the bmiddoturden here

MS SHlHEI And the burden -- he

government has met the burden In fact in

this case the preponderance 0 the evidence

literally the only evidence other than

testirrony by the site owner testimony by

someone who walks around a three-hu1dred-acre

site hunting and looki1g for damage in che

fieds which lS what he estified he was

doing there and photographs taken during a

d--ought he oV9rtlhe=Iilg evidence is that the

waters do flow on a regular basis First of

all these waers have been napped the

waters leaving the site -- as flovving water by

USGS for hal f a century

JUDGE vIOLGAST Yo mentioned that

the waters flow on a regular basis Is that a

conir~uols bas~s

MS SHAMET We would say it would

be part of every year Your Honor

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JUDGE SHEEHAJ Tlen W1Y 18 that

necessarily continual The Scalia Test now

that veve 901e to continual flow is jilst

that -- there has to be continual flow He

says even the least significant of the lake

river ocealS or streams the four water

bodies the least significant steams has to

have COlticua you

repeatedly say - make other instances that

are to me a lot less cor~fdent t1~an what

Scalia seems to deilland You say page 31 the

drains flow at least part of every yeari page

35 at least SOme portion of every year at

least at least at least it comes up

repeated-ly in YOlr brief vlhich couid be just

one rain event So theres one rain at least

it flows one or two days after the rain aod

thats certainly a far cry I would argue

from continual So can you address the seeming

gap between your statemen~s and what Scalia

seems to demand as far as continual flow

~S SHk1ET Ie would state that

Your

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Justice Sca~ia described re1ativey permanent

wateYs He made pretty clear wrat teose were

He did~t require any specific n~~er of days

of flow -- what he did say was common sense

and common usage distinguished between a wash

and a seasoral river and tha f s in foot1ote

five respondent likes to use the term

intermitten~ a lot but the one thing it is

clear from footnote 5 is that Justice Scalia

does not give the term intermittent any

ocegulatoY import trJhy Because he

specifically decli~ed ~o define it

JUDGE SHEEHAN Why doesnt he give

it regulatory import when at least seven

tirres by ely count in his opinion he says

iEtermi tent waters do not cca11 fy as

jurisdictional -- he even calls it an oxymQron

ac one point

~S SHAMET Even though he does

not -- he declines ~o defihe it He says that

thee are defiritions 0 nterrnttent bu he

sees 10 reason to identify what tlose are

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here I and then he specifically says I We have

no occasion in this litigation to decide

exacty whe1 he cryirg up of a streambed is

continuous and frequent enough to disqualify

tle channel as a water 0 the Cnited States

~jUDGE SHEEI-IAN I know we can t -shy

aobody knows what intermitter~t meaJs with

aOsol~te rigor thas obviously subject to

interpretation But the fact is he

contlnmiddotually rejects intermitten~ waters

whatever that Ireans as jurisdictional a1d

you say intermittent doesnt matter I dont

know how yot can say lat in the face cf al

his statements that intermittent does w~tter

HS SHAMET I think the evidence

dernorstrates pretty clearly that ther-e is

regular flow on a regular basis in these

wateTs A good exaTIple

JUDGE SHEEH1ll~ Im not talking

about the eviderce 1lT talking about the

standard

MS SHAIjET The standard lS that

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there has to be a relatvely pe-mar_ent tvater

It cant be a wash it cant be someLhing that

flows only occasionally only in response co

a very strong rainfall i~ cant be a gutter

It has to be a geographic feature ~~d in this

case we have USGS mapping these as geographic

features conainng Vlaer for over ffty

years which if thatis not relatively

permanent I In not qui te sure what would be

JUDGE SHEEHAN C-ne1 how else - shy

why else -- why is it that you cannot muster

more behind your argument that these are

lowing dyains tha1 just saying at least part

of the year continually You never say its

continual you never say its relatively

permanert ane not interrrittert you seem to

stay away from saying that and it seems

purposeful because it happens so frequently

1 S SHAHET ~J e dont

over~exaggerate our evidence we say what it

is And in this case what we r re saying is Ie

agree hsse styeams dry up for part of ~he

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year VJe f ve never argued that these were

perennial streams because theyre not They

are streams that only flow for part of the

year But part of the year is good enough

1nder Jtstice Scalia f s test These are rot

washes theyre ~ot t ckles When they flow

t1ey flow As Jlldge Mo-an pointed out I the

record is replete wi th photos of these streams

flowing and floling wi th a good arnount ofI

water them Now for exanpJe -shy

JUDGE SHEEHlll Flowing at least

part of the year right

MS SHAME~ Flowirg at least part

of the year If I could get the photo up An

example is ~his series of photos~ if we can

get it up If not Ill jus give tre exhibit

numbers Not a perfect picture This photo was

taken in December 2006 As you can see

theres visible flow in the stream A1d this

is Complainants Exhibit 328 co~plai~ants

Ex-hibit 308 - sarre sreart same location you

can tell by the cross January 07 J still

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lt- Low~ng

JUDGE SHEElI1N ~Iha t does tha t

realy prove YOJ cOl-=d go out right after a

rain as apparently happenedi apparently Dr

Whigham went out afte rain irw 07 ard Judge

Moran noted that he was out two days after a

big rain so naturally the drains were full

DJ showing us occasiQral ~-

IS SHAlyenjET If you can show four

sraight lonths of floN f think youre

probaby doing pretty good This is O1e of

respondent I S exhibits This is Dr Straws

photo ta~er_ in February 2007 This s

Respondents Exhibit 57pp

JUDGE VJOLGASI I (IT sory 1 whose

testimony was ~his

MS SHAMET Dr Straws The other

~h~ng that is documeGted -- Im just going to

go ahead and give you April April 2007 still

flow This is Complainants Exhibit 391 and

just ia case were llorried about March e

dont have March 2007 we have March 2003

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JIDGE SHEEHAN What drain is that

MS SHAMET This is Complainants

Exhibit 102L

JUDGE SHEEHAN What drain

MS SHAMET This is the portion of

drait six- seven as it leaves the si-se

crosses unde~~ea~h the railroad tracks to che

west and leaves the site We would also noce

chat in che 2003 hearing it was established

ard Judge ChaYlJeski acc6ped ordinary hig

watermark for the duration of the streams

leaving the site from the time they leave the

site cntil the time they wa~king distance

away hit traditionally navigable waters Now

whIle Justice Scalia said that existence of an

ordinary high waternark in and of itself does

not estabJish jurisdicion it does remair a

fact on the ground that shows the preseTlce of

f~c~J O-1r b~ief did cite in a footnote a

number of cases that describe what an ordinary

high water mark means and what it basically

means is that theres water there on enoJgh

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of a regular basis that theres no

vegetation and Dr Straw in poirtig at that

photo 57pp poined out that there was an

ordinary high watermark there e believe that

we 1ave s~ovm t2lougt t~1at eviderce as well is

that theres a regularity of flow through

these water bodies tJi th respect to Ms

~iilcher f s suprise that EA did not issue a

cease and desist order we in fact did we

issued an admif~istrative order n 2000 I

doat have the record citatio~ with me bu~ I

believe it was testified to in the 2003

tearilg In addi tion tlith respec 0 YIs

Wilchers conunent that EPA knew about the

operation before it was completed and didnt

intervere ~rat is also not correct In Culy

of 1999 EPA contacted respondent and

requested a site visit A- that time the work

was not done l6 site visit was scheduled in

-- they did the scheduling In July and the

visit was schedJled in September and in

August respor~dent brought equipment to the

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site and finished it up to present EPA with a

fai t accompli Couple other points There I s

bee~ a ~w~er of debates i~ t~e b~ie= about

briefs about whether or not there are in

fact wetlands on the sice and whether or not

they extend all the way to the tributaries

First of all ~othi~g in Rapanos altered the

EEe~gy and Water Developmert Appropriations

Act of 1993 Public Law 102377 106 Statutory

at Large 1315 in which Congress directed the

Corps of Eng~leers to use t~e 1987 wetlands

delineation nanual until a replacement manual

was established the courts have

recognized deference to the Corpss 1987

manual as the agencys interpretation of its

OvT regulatiors That manual was applied in

this case That manual when applied in this

case identifies wetlands throughout the site

JUDGE SHEEHAN A~e these -- are

these wetlands these draircs are tl_ey fed by

a1Y other source than rain

MS SHAMET No Your Honor These

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wetlands are what are called the top of the

watershed and this is why water flows in two

directions off of this site -- it flows both

west and east because its at the top of the

watershed

JUDGE SHEEHAN So any water on the

site its all rain-fed

MS SHAMET Yes The seasonality

of it however I can be established through

testimony regarding how the plants on this

site interact with that precipitation And

that testimony discusses the relationship

between whats called leap out and

transpiration In other words when the leaves

are on the trees the trees are uptaking water

from the ground -- from the groundwater table

and the groundwater table decreases and

thats why you see lower levels of water in

the summer During the winter when the leaves

are off the trees the trees are not

transpiring yet -- the water table rises and

thats why these are seasonally flowing

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s~reams and seasoca~ systems

JUDGE SHEEHAN Is there any

testirtony in the record abott the frequency of

the rain If rain is it is the source is

rain something on this property that occurs

f if -y times a year I a hundred t iITes a year t

two ~ines a year

MS SHAME= YOur Honor the

2003 record I believe there was an exhibit

and I apologize that I canZt name the exhibit

number for you right now that idenifies what

a one year storm is f what a three year stOrIT

is~ and l-lha a five year storm is in that

county and I apologize that I cant come up

with the exhibit number for you right now

JUDGE SHEEHAN vlell whats your

recolecion about it irhat it says eve if we

dont know the exhibit right now 111 just

trying to get a bead on how -- whether its

typically dry or typically wet there With

rain

MS SHAI-fET Your Hono f I cant

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recall I believe its under a~ inch -- around

a~ inch bu~ ca~t say foy su~e I look at

a lot of these for a let opound dipoundfeent areas

and I don~t want to get one mixed up with the

other

JUDGE ~]OGAST vTose testimony

we6 you reerrlg to gtThen you were discusslg

seasonality

MS SHAMET That was testimony of

Mr Martin It is at Remand Transcript 1912

~~d Rema~d Transcript 354

JUDGE STEI f he Board we~e to

conclude tha the evidence in this case meets

the Kennedy est is it necessary for theI

Board to consider whether the evidence meets

the plurality test

18 8HAMET Its the posiio1 of

EPA hat satisfying either test will establish

geographic jurisdiction under the Clean Water

Act As the Board noted all courts that have

so held have held tha~ if one meets re

Kennedy Tests then t~ats satised Ir

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a~swer actually to one of your questions I

1think Judge Steir there is one case It S an

unreported case out of the District of Hawaii

that has held that the Kennedy Test is lircited

to isolated waters and hat Y0l otherwise

apply to Scalia Test and that is Sierra vs

COJ1ty of Honolulu 2008 us Distcict EX=S

64262 1 and we would just note that that case

is inconsistent with the governing circuit

lali ts tle 9h Circuit and we believe its

inconsistent with Headlesburg and Moses but

you did ask lthether there was any case that

discussed he Sca=--~a test and that is the

only one at least Im aware of To answer

your question we believe t11at satisfying the

Kennedy Iest wOll-~d be sufficient and it would

not be necessary to reach the Scalia Test i

however we do beLeve thas weve satisfied

boh in this case and that ei ther test will do

it All through

JUDGE SHEEHAN Can you poi~t us iL

the record to what may not be a gap but it

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looks like a bit of a gap at least from the

briefs There I s a lot of testimony -- a lot of

discussion in your brief about the history

the history on the site water on the site

for exa~pe a 1953 p~cto s~ows di~ch O~e had

water I a 1937 photo one two and four had

water 1920 f USGS map had five -- ditch five

had water And then so we leap from sixty f

seventy years ago to the present decade

oegirning in 1999 middotJ~el a buner of inspectio1B

occurred mainly in 99 I and there was some

hopscotching and then they e~ded in 2007 So

he~e --- at least from the bries treres a

fairly big gap between the very very historic

taps and photos I and then ~he 1999-on

inspections and That they showed What about

the intervening

HS SHlIiCET - believe tha~ we also

discussed the USGS maps in 1994 which were

the most recent maps prior to activity As

YOUY HO1ort s aware from the Boards decisio1

in Bricks its inCUInbent upon us to show what

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the wates Jere lLlte before the activity f not

after the activity

JUDGE SHEE~~ Right bue the

before here is well before Thats my

~estion I dont see much except for that 94

map

MS SHAMET 1Ind we also used

aeria photography from 1994 and 1995 to

suppla--nent rphere I S been nO evidence in the

record that anything changed between 1994 and

1995 and the acivity in question which

started in I believe December of 98 or

Jaluary cf 1999 Ane I believe responcerts

agreed on the western side of the site in

their expert reper that the configuration

has been co~sistent si~ce 1949 up until the

time of the activity If there are any further

quest iors I woud jus smnnarize again by

pointing out that the facts this case are

veoy very siltple Ttese are wetlands theyre

clearly docJmented as wetlands the

preponderance of the evidence established the~

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as wetlands The preponderance of evidence -shy

tle overwhelming preponderance of the evidence

established that Chese wetlands are

performing actual documented functions The

very significant nexlJS that Justice Kennedy

described in h~s opinion The evidence in this

case shows that these wetlands are physically

adjacent to tributaries These are ditches

they are rranmade bu~ wo~d ~ust note that

iJ Ra9a~os itself the ditches were manmade

and no justices voted about that They flow

waking dista1ce to tradi tionally r~avigable

waters and 7hey are jllrisdictional Thank

you

MS v-JILCHER May it please the

cOJgt IrJClnt to t~lank couJsel for -aising the

tabletop analogy necause I forgot to This is

at a divide It is twenty feet above sea

level It 8 a watersted divde lke he

cortinental divide such hat water is flowirg

away it is not at the bottom of anything It

is nQ a marsh it is EDt a bog it is Lot a

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swarrcp i1-is is ar~ area where there is no

abili ty for the fJetland to capture and keep

pollutants out of a Y1avigable water because it

lrsef is a the very head of the watershed

And so trying 0 -- f you Jere able to be

there and see that~ you woald understand that

its not got the same type of functions and

values as some area ad) aca1t to below I

cach1g f pYEvertng po=-l-ltion cori1g frou a

10 of upstream areas While thats not

parricularly significant

JUDGE SHEEHIlll Havent yo just

helped ma~e te argumelOt that with gravity

lorking as it 60es any discharge of a

po1hltant up high wotld have made its way dOlJID

low f to a navigable water

MS WILCHER Yes so this is not

a rrounanols area fh=-s is a very slight

slope 11 fact to the naked eye it s almostt

hard to see a slope

JUDGE SHEEHAN Why does flow

matter as significant ~exus goes

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HS VrJCHER We11 the amount of

rur~offf qJie fr-ankly r~at would occur can

matte w~th regacd to that I do want 0

address a few absolutely incorrect things that

were stated and a couple misconceptions Let

me start with the mischaracterization of the

axpert witnesses that were hired in 2007

There seems to be some attempt to imply that

hiri1g differe1t expert witnesses to deal with

wtether this is ju-iscicto1al under Rapanos

is the same as having expert witnesses to

testify whether or not this area met the

former -- the actual definition of a wetland

Theyre two different things You can have a

wetland and it ca1 still not be

jClrisd~ctional So itS our hope that the

Board doesnt misconstrue that to say that by

hiring different fgtxperts you were trying to

get a different result which was not the case

-- its simply that if youre looking at how

much flow what the funcions of values ar-e

its a very differert thing fran sorteone who

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caL go ou~ a~d do the soil samples to

determine whats hydric and whats not

Seco~d jus~ as with regard to the

credibility of the witnesses just as there

were some -- a case perhaps whee ac-I expert

witness misstated something or changed its

rnird 1 so did some of the government I s expert

wi tnesses misstate something that then had to

be co-ected So did the brief that said

that took the word and and changed it to

Or witr regard to what Justice Kennedy hadI

written So I dont think that that in and of

itself has any significarce wi th regard to the

credibility of a witness tihen we are talking

abcu lGVJ fa this land is from a navigable

water counsel has mentioned that it S 2600I I

feet middotrhich is about half a mile or 4200

feet which is close to a mile -- thats not

to reac-t a navigabe water Let us be clear

That is to reach something that is not

necessarily an intermittent area4 EPA

stipulated l the stipulations dated

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Septewer 8th 03 that the water body

depicted and ]i5 is nurrbers 37 and 38 that

the water bodies depicted as these drainage

ditches on the site are depicted by the USGS

topa rEap at the 3allary Hill (Phonetic)

quadrangle as a broken blue line and that a

broken bae line denotes an irtermi ttent

stream These are intermittent streams ard as

Justice Sheehan has correctly noted Judge

Scalia says n mary circ1JIstarces that

intermittent streams are not jurisdictional

waters of the U S HmAever if we tun to irlhat

Custice Kennedy says thats rhece we kind of

get into the eitheror what we also find

there is a great discussion by Justice Kennedy

loiClself on 1e Ccrps definition of a

tributary Counsel was referring to the

drainage ditches as t-ibutaries ard Justice

Kennedy makes it c~ear that the corps

definition of tributary that was in effect at

tr~e time this decision was -rritter middotJsing he

high watermark was not appropriate I and would

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lead in fact to too broad a definition of what

was jurisdictional i~ and of itsef under the

Clean Water Act And theres we dont have

time to read it all but Im sure youve

probably ead it more tirres t~an have

aryay iled also jtst lke to mention tha

qui te frankly the evidence that has been

introduced in this case is the type of

evidence the Cour was r~opng would not be

Csedo prove jurisdictior on such an

important issue and that is its speculative

Its not -- were not arguing that wetlands

arent irrportart J we arent arguing that

wetlands aralt valuabe anc you know in

1990 wed say regulate because we had the

legal authority to do so This again is one

of tlese cases t1at sirrply wishing that 1_e

Q C d h dfe I~upreree o~r~ naa sal some ~~g 1 ~eren~ y

does not make it so This is what the Court

said -- thats the final word on the mater

whatever we decide ~t is bu it S tre firai

word and we c~~t change that regardless ofl

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how mportant or ho wrong someone may think

that it auld be To other quick points to

mention and that is EPA knew about this work

that was going on in February of 1999 and

that is in Jeff Lapps testimony tn Volume 1

page 167 through 169 so EA did kno Most of

t~e woyk was completed by Aprii or May of that

year before EPA every CaIne out to the site

and it wasnt until 2000 chat a notice of

violation was issued

JUDGE SHEEHamp1 So why does that

matte- That is an enforcement choice EPA makes

every day of the week and its not part of

the record i~ has nothing to do with whether

or not the Kennedy or Scalia or any other test

was met It really doesnt seem to bear on the

legal issues here

11S vIILCHER Fair enough For

purpose of ~his arg~~e~tl for t~e pur~ose of

today youre probaDly right J-luge But i~

does matcer if were talking about typical

practice of EPA and while Im well aware that

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202) 234middot4433 WASHINGTON DC 20005middot3701 wwwooalrgrO$$oom

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theres no requirement to take an enforcemer-t

action in a1ything less trar this period of

statute of limitations if in fact this was as

egregious and as violative and as problematic

as counsel appears to make it seem then EPA

did have every opportlli~ity to stOy that and

in ITany many cases vlhen EP1 sees a clear

violation of the law I they simply issues a

cease and desist order and in a case like

Rapanos in the Rapacos case you have people

who are going out anc taking action and

violating the wetlands law after theyve

received many state and federal cease and

desis orders so the facts of this case are

so di==ere~t from the facts of tha~ case Here

we have someone who was trying to comply with

the law as it was written at the time in my

view he was complying with the law as it was

wri ten at tlat time actG the fact tha EPA

didnt like ~he way the law was written and

what it said and what the courts were

deciding does not give hem authority to come

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202) 234-4433 WASH1NGTON DC 20005middot3701 wwwnealrgrosscom

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in and regulate after the fact

JUDGE WOLGAST Counsel thank you

youre Olt of if you could make your

final point n just r~e next thirty secords J

I think you saie you had two I may be

mistaken

MS WILCHER Thank you Well we

are talkirg about jurisdictio1 I do think

tha tte overall =-ssJe of equity cotes i1to

play Ar~d knowing -- even krowing what the

jurisdiction was at the time of the activities

undertaken is really kind of an unc I Qar

matter Were still struggling with what

j Clrisdict iOI is Re9rettably toat s always

been t~e problem with this program

problem Igtli th this progral7l is that Corgress did

not give us clear direction and clear guidance

to either EPA or to the Boyds or to anyone

else in the regulative corrmlUnity and I t-hink

that s a factor certainly that the court Iblil

consider ard should corsder I when making a

decision on issues of liability and in this

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND tRANSCRIBERS

~323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW i202 234-4433 WASHINGTON DC roooS-3701 WWWlI$alrgmssOOffl

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case we would ask that you do so Thank you

J1DGE voLGAST Thank YOJ Cours

thank yOJ for your arguUent and the case is

now submitted

MS DURR All rise Session of the

Environmenta Appeals Board nmv stands

adjourned

(Whereupon the above-entitled

matter was concluded at 11 16 am)

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON DC 20005-3701 wwwnealrgrossoom

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CERTIFICATE

This lS to certify tha~ ~he foregoi~g transcript

in the matter of Snith Farm 3nterprises ILC

Hon Anna Wolgast E-wironmenta Appeals Judge

Date Jaly 20 2010

Flace Washingson DC

represens the ful and complete proceedings of the

aforementio1cd marter as reported and reduced to

typewriting

NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCR8ERS

1323 rOOE iSLAND AVE_ NW (202 234-4433 WASHtGON DC 20005-3701 fNWnnalrqft)6Scom

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