BE A MINER, NOT A PROSPECTOR 1 Robert …actionplan.com/pdf/bclay_10.pdfIt’s a pleasure to be here, Robert. Robert: This is going to be an interesting and very relevant topic, I

BE A MINER, NOT A PROSPECTOR 1 Robert Middleton Interviews Brett Clay

Copyright ©2010 Robert Middleton, Action Plan Marketing - www.actionplan.com

Robert: Hi, everyone. This is Robert Middleton of Action Plan Marketing and the Action Plan Marketing Club. On the line, I have Brett Clay of the Change Leadership Group. Thanks for being on the call, Brett.

Brett: Thank you very much. It’s a pleasure to be here, Robert.

Robert: This is going to be an interesting and very relevant topic, I think, to everyone who’s an InfoGuru. The topic is “Be a Miner, Not a Prospector.” Brett, what do you mean by that? What’s the big idea or concept behind that?

Brett: Sure. Well, the common practice that people have when they’re looking for new business is to go out what’s called “prospecting.” They’ve got a product or service in their mind, and they think that there’s a set of customers out there that need this, so “I’m going to look, turn over rocks, turn over bushes. I’m going to beat the bushes, and I’m going to keep prospecting until I find that person who needs my product.”

Robert: Fair enough.

Brett: That’s a pretty difficult process. Everyone goes back to the idea of cold-calling and lead-generation that just everybody hates the idea of. They just cringe when they think of that process, right?

Robert: Yes.

Brett: To some degree, you do have to generate leads, and there’s a lot of debate now about new ways of doing that with social media, the idea of doing inbound marketing instead of prospecting.



When I talk about mining, I’m really talking about going deep into a smaller set of customers than you might have considered in the past and building relationships with them and your knowledge in their business so that you are identifying new opportunities for them to create value for those clients.

Rather than just going and being kind of like an old-time gold prospector with a pan in a little stream and just looking for little nuggets that are already there, the idea is you go deep into the mountain, which is your client’s life or their business, and you find sources of value. You create value for them that they might not have even identified themselves.

That’s a very different mindset than just looking for things that are obvious, that they’re just on the surface.

Robert: Can you give me a practical example just off the top of your head, like the miner versus prospect metaphor?

Brett: Well, usually it’s when you are calling on a set of bigger accounts. I’m sure your audience has many different types of customer profiles that they talk to.

Robert: Well, the independent professionals on this call, I call them InfoGurus, don’t prospect. They don’t mine. Some do, but essentially everyone’s marketing plan is that they do the best job they possibly can with existing clients, and they hope and pray that those existing clients refer them to new clients.

Brett: Right.



Robert: Then their marketing tends to be sporadic, unorganized and random. That is, they do a little networking. They meet people. They talk to people, they meet with existing clients perhaps, and they do some speaking engagements once in a while, but without any plan or strategies. It’s just that they give a talk and hope something comes out of it.

That’s the kind of thing. They’re not salespeople. They don’t think of themselves as salespeople. In fact, they hate the word “salesperson” because they think of themselves as professionals, which they are, that offer a high-end service, but they need to get clients, and most of them don’t have a marketing plan or strategy.

Even their prospecting, I would love it if they even prospected, is kind of random and kind of based on, “I heard you do this. You help companies with this,” and you say, “Yeah, I can kind of do that.” Then you have a meeting and you talk.

Then every project you do is somewhat different. It’s sort of based on what the client thinks they need. You put together a proposal, and then you do that project. Then that’s done, and then it’s, “Hopefully another client calls me again soon.”

Brett: Not systematic marketing. Well, then that’s certainly where your seven-step marketing process looks like it’s very applicable for that and fills that gap.

Where I’m coming from is once you have identified a lead, a prospective client, then how do you take them from interest to becoming a great long-term customer that sees huge value from you?



I’ll give you an example there. I just had breakfast the other day with an author who is a bestselling published author. He even had a Harvard Business Review article and so is a very well-reputed guy. He speaks all over the place, and prospective customers say they absolutely need what he has to offer.

Then when he presents just a couple of ballpark estimates of what it would look like to work with him, he’s not able to close them, if you will, using sales-speak and turn them into a paying client. It’s absolutely holding him back.

Robert: This is a guy that’s well-known. He is an InfoGuru by definition, and yet he can’t close the business.

Brett: Exactly. He’s certainly got the reputation, and people see the value, but going from that to actually transacting – I don’t even like the word “transaction” because I think a lot of people get hung up on the transaction process and are too transaction focused – but the point is that he’s not able to turn them into a paying client.

That’s where you really have to understand the concept of creating value for your client because if you create value for them, if our argument is compelling, there will never be a problem. If they’re going to make money by doing business with you, why wouldn’t they do that? It’s only in their best interest, right?

Robert: Exactly. That’s what we’ll really be getting into in depth. You have a whole model called the Change Leadership Model that taps into what we’re talking about, right?

Brett: The Change Leadership Framework.



Robert: Can you just give us a brief outline of those different components, and then we’re going to go back, and we’re going to go into them step by step. What’s Step 1 of the Change Leadership Framework?

Brett: Step 1 is called Force Field Analysis. That’s where you understand the forces that are influencing the buyer’s decision.

Step 2 is Change Response Analysis. That’s where you assess the customer’s or client’s way they respond to the forces that they’re feeling. All those responses are unique to each individual, so that’s why you have to characterize them.

The third step is called Power Analysis. That’s where you determine the work and cost of making a change, of implementing your proposed action or change.

The fourth step is Value Creation. Of course, there has to be value that’s created with making any change or taking any action. Identifying that very clearly is important.

The last step is actuating the change. It’s called Change Actuation. Actuate means to move, to motivate forward, so that’s the last step.

Robert: That’s where you’re actually working with a client, right?

Brett: You’re working with the client, of course, throughout all five of those steps. Those are called “disciplines of the framework.”

Robert: It sounds like, as you said, this has to be part of the sales process or the sales conversation as well, right?



Brett: Exactly. It’s your template for the conversation you have with the customer.

Robert: Great. Let’s get into that. Paint a scenario. Obviously, this has to be a high-end coach/consultant/trainer or combination of those things that fit in my InfoGuru system. It’s a company. It doesn’t necessarily have to be a giant company, but a big enough company that can afford you and has a big enough problem or issue or concern or desire or whatever, right?

Brett: Exactly.

Robert: This isn’t a $5,000-type sale. This is something bigger.

Brett: Unless your consultants can live off of $5,000. It’s kind of hard to do that.

Robert: Some coaches do long-term coaching, but I’ve known coaches that do a three-month program for $25,000 or $30,000. For whoever is listening, you’ve got to fit this into your own particular framework.

I sit down with Joe Prospect, and we start the conversation. How does it go? What does the conversation go like in your model, and how do all these five pieces fit into that?

Brett: I just want to lay down one really important premise.

Robert: Great.

Brett: That is when you think about this author that I was mentioning, those prospective clients did not go ahead and write a check and write an agreement contract to proceed with him.



The reason is that they were not forced to do that. This is an absolutely critical thing that we need to understand in order to be successful in business. People only do things when they are forced.

Robert: You’re not saying manipulated.

Brett: I’m not saying manipulated in any way, shape or form.

Robert: It’s sort of like that’s the only choice, given the circumstance. It’s like, “This is the only choice I can make.” That’s forced. “I’m forced to do this because the alternative is unthinkable.”

Brett: Exactly. You’re weighing these different alternatives. The core psychological principle in my framework comes from a German psychologist named Kurt Lewin. In fact, he’s very influential in the discipline of organizational development.

He developed this idea of force field analysis. His theory was based on the premise that people’s behaviors are a result of the forces that they feel. If they’re not feeling anything, they’re not going to do anything, but if they feel, let’s say, hungry or they feel a desire to do something, or they derive joy from something, those essentially act as forces, and then it propels them to take a certain action in a certain direction.

That’s the underlying premise of this framework. It actually, when you think about it, is the underlying premise in all sales. That actually is why we all kind of cringe when we think of the “salesperson” because we think of a bulldog who is just going to come after us and



keep twisting our arm and forcing and forcing until we finally relent. That’s not what we want to do.

Robert: You get a very unwilling client if you give it all.

Brett: That’s not what we want to do. We don’t want to be a bulldog, the stereotypical used car salesman, if you will, when we’re selling our professional services.

It is the case that people take action in a response to the forces they feel, and they’ll only take a specific action when they really feel forced to. It can be just as little as getting off the couch to get a drink or turning off the lights or TV and saying, “I’m forcing myself to go to bed.” That’s the way we behave.

That’s why the very first step in the framework is understanding the forces that people are feeling, because those will determine ultimately the actions that people take.

What Kurt Lewin said is that people’s behavior is a function of two things, which are themselves and their environment. What I did is I expanded on the “themselves” part of it, and I broke that into three additional forces.

The first force is what I call the “force of their internal needs.” I’m sure you’ve heard of Abraham Maslow and his hierarchy of needs. He said that man is a perpetually wanting animal. As soon as one need is met, another need surfaces. We, as humans, just continue pursuing all these different needs that we feel we’re never sort of “happy” or “satisfied.”



Robert: That’s why I can never stop growing my CD collection.

Brett: Exactly. It just goes on and on, right?

Robert: Yes.

Brett: Understanding the client internal needs, whether it’s an individual person or a consumer or an organization, they all have internal needs that drive them. Those can be things such as their values, their goals, their ideals.

It could be Maslow’s hierarchy whether they’re sitting and trying to just put food on the table, or they’re striving for self-esteem, or they’re all the way at the top and they’re striving for self-actualization, which was the highest item in Maslow’s model, which is that people already have everything else they could possibly want, so now what else are they going to do? They’re going to just try to be the best that they can be.

Understanding how the internal needs that your client has that are driving them, what are they really trying to get, that’s probably the most important thing you can understand because once you understand that, if you satisfy that, that’s what they’re trying to achieve through their business or through their life. If you help them do that, they’ll absolutely be very, very thankful beyond words probably.

Robert: Yes.

Brett: That’s the internal needs. The second force is the force of their behavioral tendencies. That’s kind of like their personality, what, in an organizational context, is what we call organizational culture. It’s those behaviors that



people display or the actions they take without really thinking about it.

It’s not really intentional. It’s just the “way they are.” Some people are very, very, analytical. Rather than the typical four Myers-Briggs categories, I prefer to go a little bit deeper with the Keirsey Temperament Sorter, which breaks it into 16 different sort of personality traits.

I highly recommend people buy Please Understand Me II by David Keirsey. It’s a very readable book. He gives these descriptions of 16 different personality types and tells you what are the preferences that these people have, how do they like you to interact with them, and what are their expectations?

Being fluent in some of that, even at a basic level, is extremely powerful when you’re dealing with clients, especially in an organizational or professional context. That’s their behavioral tendencies.

The third force is their cognitive strategies. These are the behaviors that they take intentionally. Actually, these are the ways that they manage their own behaviors, not their behaviors themselves.

These are things like your schedule. In the old times, we had the Day-Timer. Now you’ve got your personal information manager. In an organizational context, you might have project management systems. You might have performance management and tracking systems.

For example, at Microsoft, they have this thing called Commit. At the beginning of every year, you list down all of the things that you’re going to achieve that year, and



that drives everyone’s behavior because you’re told that if have to do something, and it’s not listed on your commitment sheet, then you shouldn’t do it. The only thing that will matter at the end of the year to your performance measurement is what was on that sheet.

There are all kinds of different ways that people and organizations use to constrain or manage behavior.

So then the last force, of course, was the one I mentioned, which is the environment. When people think of adapting and changing, they always think of the environment, but actually, that’s the one that we can’t control. The only thing we can do is control our response to the environment, and that’s where we go into the second discipline.

Robert: Which is change response analysis?

Brett: Right.

Robert: Let me look at this in a completely practical way. I’m meeting with a guy across from me. How am I using this with this person in the sales interview? What am I doing? I’m essentially asking questions to find out about their internal needs, etc.?

Brett: Exactly.

Robert: Give an example of the kind of questions you would ask. When I think of analysis, I think of charts, tallying things up and really analyzing something. That’s certainly possible, but not always in the sales appointment can you get that deep with the initial things. What are you asking?



Brett: One of the other premises I have in mind in Change Leadership Framework is that you’re having an ongoing conversation with the client. You wouldn’t do this if you were just going to get on the phone and try to close an order within a 15-minute phone call. That, you get into a whole different set of sales techniques.

Robert: That doesn’t work for most people because these are higher-end services, whatever it is. I have this concept that you might be familiar with, getting on second base. Second base is when a prospect is ready to explore working with you.

That doesn’t mean you haven’t had conversations before, you haven’t asked questions, or you haven’t given them information, but it’s a real selling conversation which they’re looking at exploring. With some big companies, you might have several of those meetings, depending on the size of the company, the complexity, etc.?

Brett: There’s a couple things going on there. First of all, a common mistake that I’ve seen everybody, regardless of their sales experience level, make is what one author called “premature elaboration.”

That means you start elaborating about all the great things you can do, rather than first getting all the information you can about the customer.

That’s the first thing I would say is when they “want to come in and have a conversation about working with you,” you have to be very, very careful. It’s so easy to fall into that trap, especially when the client has a little bit of an insecurity about working with a consultant or a salesperson. Then they want to be very reserved, “hold



their cards to their chest,” and just let you tell them what you can do, and then they’ll decide whether or not you fit their model.

Robert: That’s a terrible way to sell.

Brett: As soon as you get into that, you’re just wasting your time because you will not get the engagement.

Robert: I call that being a dumb buyer, as well. If you try to buy from people like that, you’re never going to do very well.

Brett: Exactly. Unfortunately, there are a lot of dumb buyers.

Robert: A lot of people just want to be dumb buyers, i.e. they want to be in control, so it’s like, “Well, tell me what you got and how much it costs, and I’ll tell you about myself later.” No.

Brett: First of all, you don’t want to fall into that trap. Secondly, when I talk about this force field analysis and gathering that data, this is the kind of data, of course, you can’t do all in one meeting.

At the same time, if you’re having ongoing conversations with people, if you are aware of your own need to get answers to these different questions about what are the forces they feel, then you’ll be able to do that in a friendly, appropriate way over a certain amount of time.

Robert: Let’s say for argument’s sake that we don’t know the exact context of this conversation, but it is a conversation with a sincerely motivated prospect who might become a paying client. It might be on the phone. It might be early on the process, whatever.



What are some of these basic questions that I can ask, just really simple straightforward stuff, to really discover the internal needs of my ideal client and some of this other stuff as well, of course?

Brett: Rule 1 is you want to try to ask open-ended questions rather than closed-ended questions. The first open-ended question I like to ask is what’s changing?

As soon as you ask that, the buyer really has to start thinking, “Hm, did I even say anything was changing? You’re right. I wouldn’t be just trying to do nothing. I would be trying to make some forward progress, and it’s going to end up requiring a change, so hm, let me think about that.”

The next question I like to ask is what’s your goal? Now, these start at a very superficial level because you may get superficial answers to these, especially if you can get the client talking.

Then you can start to just follow along, and take cues from what they say, and say, “Interesting. Well, what are the strategic objectives of your organization this year?”

Robert: Or, “What’s the really big thing you want to accomplish that’s more important than anything else?”

Brett: Like that. Jeffrey Gitomer, whose name you’ve probably heard, very big in the sales world, really believes in this idea of power questions.

He says if you really put in the time to prepare for the conversation with the customer, you can think of two to six questions that just will stop your customer in their



tracks if you know their business or their organization or whatever well enough. These are really deep, thoughtful questions.

Robert: It really gets them to think when you ask them.

Brett: That’s right. I submit that, in general, they’ll fall into one of those four categories, the internal needs, behavior, strategy or environment. I do recommend that you try to stay away from the environmental questions as much as possible because everyone just wants to talk about what’s going on around them.

Robert: What’s not working, who’s screwing up, and blah, blah, blah?

Brett: Right, and, “Oh, the economy.” Those are all kinds of great things, but it’s not actionable for what you can do. What matters is what you’re trying to do to get the best benefit for yourself or your organization. Those benefits usually are in those internal needs category. Then what you can do is change your behavior or your strategy and go execute it.

The most important, valuable questions that generate real gold are those that fall into the internal need category.

Robert: Very interesting. To emphasize, when you’re asking these big questions, it’s sort of like one big question followed up with 10 small questions. You’re not just trying to get one pat answer and then move on.

Brett: Exactly. That just means that you haven’t fully understood and become an adept consultant and salesperson if you’re just going with the surface.



Robert: You’re giving us really good ideas here. I like this question. I want to emphasize that as well. What’s changing? It’s provocative because everything is changing, and as things change, there are problems that get in the way of producing results. There can be a million things that are changing, but what’s changing for them? What’s their perception?

Brett: Here’s the next one that really might stop them in their tracks. What are you changing?

Robert: This is gold here. This is good stuff. What are you changing?

Brett: They might say, “Oh, everything, blah, blah, blah. They’re always changing.” Then you say, “What are you changing?” “Oh, I’m not doing anything. I just get paid here to keep this chair down.”

Robert: Whereas, if you’re interviewing me, because that’s the only one I know well, I’d say, “I’m trying to grow my marketing club. I’m making a lot of changes in the Mastery Program. I’m trying to have more balance and integration in my life. Everything’s changing because I’ve achieved all the goals I want to achieve, and now I’m trying to go to the next level.” It becomes an interesting conversation.

Brett: Then that’s where, if you understand these questions, you can just drill right in. Like you said, “I’m trying to grow my marketing club.” That’s a goal.

The change might get into how you’re trying to do that. Then I could say, “So you’re trying to grow your marketing club. Interesting. Why?”



Robert: I could say, “Well, because I can. It will serve more people, I’ll make more money, and everybody will be happy.”

Brett: You can follow up with these “why” questions and you can also follow up to, “Why is that important?”

Robert: Exactly. “Why is that important? For financial security, so I won’t have to work forever working with clients and groups, so I can have this as a big program that can generate X dollars,” and that kind of thing.

Then I could say, “Something that’s changing is that up to this point, I’ve done almost everything technically by myself in my business, and I’m finding I have to hire people to do technical things. It’s the most frustrating thing I’ve ever experienced.”

That’s kind of an opening for the service provider. He might say, “That’s definitely an area I can help that person deal with all these people.”

Brett: Now, a basic sales class always would teach how to ask why and why is that important because everything that a client says, you can always follow up with, “Well, why is that important?” You can just do that all the way until they say, “Well, I’m just trying to become one with the spirit,” whatever it is, right?

Robert: It sort of comes down to that. “I just want to be fulfilled and happy. This is a great game I like to play, and I want to win at it.” You can go a little too far, I guess.

Brett: That’s kind of a basic sales skill, being able to ask why and why is that important? What I’m saying here is that I’m



providing this framework that gives you a guide for the set of questions to ask so that you can help people take the actions, implement the actions that are going to help them meet their goals.

Some of this stuff is basic sales skills, but it’s all in the context of this Change Leadership Framework.

Robert: This really fits into my whole strategy session model, but really takes it up a notch. This is great, especially for people that are wanting to sell much higher-end services. It really goes deeper. I love it.

Then when we’ve got a really good sense of what’s changing, how they’re changing and what their goals are, and understand a lot of that, the next part of your model is Change Response Analysis. All this sounds very technical in a sense, but I like your exactitude about this.

Brett: The thing is, my background is selling multimillion-dollar software in computer systems, and the sales cycles were a couple years long. We would develop these 12-to-15 page account plans. We would have an account team of maybe six people on this.

We only had a small set of customers that could buy, that were in the market for a $2.5 million super-computer. You don’t just go sell those on the street corner.

Robert: Hey, do you want one? It’s really nice. Look how shiny it is.

Brett: We had no choice. We lived and died on whether or not we could sell a specific customer this computer within a



two-year time period because we didn’t have anyone else to sell to.

That meant that we had to get very technical and analytical. When we would go to talk to what I called an “above-the-line manager,” that’s the person who has the ability to sign that purchase order of that magnitude, then we would prepare for months working with all the people on that person’s staff around the company, understanding the value propositions, what it would take to make this happen and everything, organizational politics, and who’s leaving, who’s retiring, who’s mad at whom, all that stuff in order to be prepared to go meet with the decision makers.

In that kind of sales cycle, of course, you go into a huge amount of depth. You just scale it back depending on the magnitude of the product or service you’re selling.

Robert: Exactly. If it’s a $10,000 service, it’s going to take less meetings and less effort than a multi-hundred-thousand dollar service, period.

Brett: Exactly. The change response premise is that no two people respond to the same forces in the same way. When you think about it, it’s, I guess, pretty obvious how different people are.

When my wife serves dinner every night, I’ve got two kids, and it doesn’t matter what she serves. One of them is happy, and one of them is not happy. It’s the same food. It’s the same forces that they’re experiencing, but they respond in different ways.



People are like that. Especially when you’ve got it really down, you’ve got some momentum in your business, and you’ve had five or 10 clients that you’ve seen this problem over and over again, you just want to go, “Oh, yeah. I can do this for you.” You have to hold back and say, “Nope. I have to give the customer the ability to have to manifest their change response before I come along and provide my solution.”

The change response, the way it works, is it’s a coping process. The first step in coping is appraisal. Let’s say that I tell you that you’re not going to be able to use the same vendor you’ve been using for your marketing club on the website, some big change.

The first thing you’re going to say is, “Oh my goodness.” You’re going to appraise the situation. What’s going on? What does that mean? What’s happening? That’s the appraisal process.

The second part is you’re going to emote. People can emote negatively, or they can emote positively. Emoting is a natural process that we have to understand will happen, and we have to let it happen. That’s another kind of mistake that we could make.

Robert: Emote, respond or react emotionally in some way is what you’re getting at.

Brett: Exactly. Let’s say that your web host or some really important vendor for your business says, “You know what? We’re doubling our prices, and we’re going to decrease our service by two-thirds.” You’re saying, “Oh my god. I can’t.”



Robert: How wonderful. What an opportunity to change providers.

Brett: Well, you’re probably going to be pretty mad at first, right? You may have some emotions about that.

Robert: Absolutely.

Brett: Definitely, emoting is an important process. Especially as consultants, if a lot of your audience is information gurus or consultants, you have to recognize that clients will many times be more emotional and irrational than rational and logical.

The whole change response discipline is acknowledging that fact and just characterizing how they’re going to respond. I can’t tell you how many times as a salesperson I think I present rational arguments, and I behave very rationally, and I can’t figure out why the customer is just being so irrational.

Robert: Give us an example of how this piece is working in the selling conversation.

Brett: You ask them what’s changing, and then you say another great question. One is “What are you feeling?” That’s kind of what the forces are feeling, but you can also then ask, and it’s a little bit into the response side, “How do you feel about that?” Then they’ll start to reveal what their response is.

You could say, “What are people doing about that?” If you want to depersonalize it, and also talk about it to other people in the organization, “How do people feel about that? What are people doing about that?”



Robert: “I’m frustrated,” or “I’m excited,” or “I’m ambivalent,” or “I’m hopeless,” regarding these goals and what’s changing and what you want. It’s all that stuff.

Brett: You can just ask them flat out, “How are you responding to that?” In fact, there’s nothing like just the obvious question.

Then the third step in the coping process is problem solving. Once you emote, and you go through negative emotions, you ultimately have to have constructive emotions that, “I’m going to overcome this. I’m going to respond in a constructive way.” Then they go into problem solving, and they decide what action to take.

Then the fourth, of course ultimate, step is they take action. That’s the change response process.

Robert: Let’s go back a bit more to the selling conversation about how you’re integrating this into conversations. Are you saying you’re trying to understand how they respond to change in the process of asking questions?

Brett: You’re trying to understand how they are responding specifically to the forces that they told you they’re feeling. Ultimately at the end of the force field analysis process, you’ve got a good understanding of what’s driving their behavior right now.

At the end of the change response analysis, you understand how they’re responding to it. Are they, like you say, what we call in software engineering, a “no-operation,” they’re not doing anything, or are they just moving right ahead at 100 million miles an hour, and



you’d better run to catch up or they’re not going to want to do business with you?

You understand how they’re responding, what actions they’re taking, and then you understand what you need to do to be aligned with that.

Robert: That makes sense. I’m just thinking of examples of current clients. Let’s say someone is trying to sell a leadership program. Leadership is a big thing these days, and people are managing, not leading. A lot of these people tell people and train them in how to build leadership.

The conversation first is about your company and change, etc., and it gets into leadership. How do you feel when people that ought to be leading aren’t leading? “Well, it’s really frustrating.” “What do you do about it?”

What are some of the questions you might ask in that kind of thing that would fit the Change Response Analysis? Am I getting too granular here?

Brett: No. I’m just trying to think if we’re having a conversation with maybe an HR director or with the CEO. This might be a little bit of a side topic here, but the issue of management versus leadership fits more into the saying that the fish rots from the head.

It’s often the case of teaching the top-level management to be leaders rather than saying, “How do we go train that with our managers?”

Robert: Sure. Often both are necessary.



Brett: Right. Definitely it’s, “What’s going on in your business? What’s changing? What are your challenges? What are your goals?” Then they start telling you probably a bunch of problems. You say, “How do you feel about that?” or “How are you responding to that?”

Then you ultimately get down to, “Well, what is your best response to everything you just told me?” That best response is in the form of some kind of a change. I mean, it’s unlikely they’re’ going to say, “I’m just going to sit here and do nothing.”

Robert: “What are you going to do? It sucks. What are you going to do?”

Brett: Of course, as a consultant, you are often brought in, and they say, “Well, what do you think I should do?” That’s very fair because at some point, you will collect your data and make a proposal.

Robert: You’ll be giving some advice on the process, yes.

Brett: Ultimately, it comes down to making a change. Then the next step is understanding the power required to make that change.

Robert: Now we’re transitioning into the power analysis.

Brett: Right. Now, this gets maybe a little bit into the idea of management versus leadership. One definition by a wonderful scholar guru, Barry Posner, actually, he probably got it from someone else as well, but leadership is trying to get someone else to do something that you want them to do and perhaps even when they don’t want to do it.



Robert: Ideally, it’s making them think it was their idea.

Brett: Exactly. That’s what this whole premise of this Change Leadership Framework is. You basically abandon the hope or the principle that you’re going to force someone to do something that they don’t want to do.

The customer or your stakeholder or whoever it is that you’re trying to lead is in control. They will feel the forces. They’ll respond to it, and then they will put in the effort over time to make the change happen.

Physicists define power as work over time. They don’t define power as your ability to force someone to do something that they don’t want to do. That’s a myth that that’s what power is.

We see that every day, but if you’re trying to be a change leader and a more effective consultant and get more business, you realize you can’t force people to do things. What you do then is go through a process of understanding the work that is required to make the change happen.

That work is usually a function of the forces that are driving it minus the forces that are resisting it. There will always be some resistance to whatever you want to do. It could be in the form of the cost of selling off old computers because you wanted to get a new computer system. That’s a resisting force. It could be in the cost of learning a new system.

The process of power analysis is weighing all the things that are driving, which many times are in the form of benefits, and all the forces that are resisting. Those could



be emotional. Those could be political. They could be economic or psychological. You list all those different forces, and then you understand.

You get an idea of how much work over how much time it will take to make the change. Then you can select the change that requires the least amount of work given the same amount of benefit.

One of the mistakes that we all tend to make is we think that if we really want something, we should push harder, and that will make something change.

Well, Kurt Lewin noted that when you push on something, it pushes back. The sum of those two forces is what he called “tension,” so all you do is you increase the tension. You haven’t moved anything.

Could you imagine you’re going to an organization, and you start just pushing harder and pushing harder? Then all of a sudden, all this tension builds up within the organization, all the different people involved.

In order to actually make the change happen, Sun Tzu says you have to have a 10X superiority in order to force, to go to battle, and expect to win in a battle. Imagine how much that increases the cost of trying to make a change if you’re planning to force it onto someone.

It’s much easier to lower the resistance and find ways to make the change less costly and address the objections and the worries and concerns of the people that are resisting the change than it is to try to force them.



Robert: Sure. Change minds and hearts, and then it’s easier. Although changing minds and hearts is quite a job in itself.

Brett: Exactly. That really comes back to what are their goals and all that again. Do you have any other?

Robert: Essentially, what you’re trying to get a sense of is, “If you want to get this result, what’s going to resist this result? What are all the things that are against it?”

Sometimes some of my people are just selling to individuals such as coaching services. We have a lot of coaches. I see the conversation could be the same.

It’s like, “You want a change. You want to get this result. You want to have more balance in your life. You want to make more money, blah-da blah. You want all of these things. Then we found a little bit about how you behave and how you respond to that now, and what do you do, but how are you really going to get the result?”

What are some appropriate questions here? What is likely to stop you from making this happen? Given the past, what usually stops you from making something happen? What gets in the way? What resistance is there?

Brett: Well, one easy question to start off with is what would be involved in making this change? As soon as you do that, you start talking about almost a work breakdown structure of all the different tasks that have to be taken.

Those all involve some kind of effort and time and cost. Then as you start having the conversation about those sort of tangible, physical items, they will probably also



volunteer the softer, emotional and psychological items that would exist as well.

One formula that’s, I think, constructive for this is called the Formula for Change. It was developed by gentlemen named Richard Beckhard and David Gleicher.

What they did is they said that if the dissatisfaction with the current situation is high, and the client has a clear vision of the positive outcomes that that change would enable, and if they have a clear understanding of the first steps that would need to be taken in order to make this change, then that would create a very strong force to make the change happen.

Now, the things that would resist that would be all the economic costs and the emotional, psychological costs. What they said is that you could basically think of it as its own equation, the dissatisfaction times the vision times the first steps. If that’s greater than the economic times psychological cost, then the change will likely happen.

The reason they put the little multiplier in there is because it’s really an “and” function. You have to have a high dissatisfaction and a clear vision and a clear first step in order for it to happen. If any of those are missing, it probably won’t happen.

Robert: That’s stuff that you can use in your marketing as well, talking about that stuff, making people aware of their dissatisfaction.

Brett: Exactly.



Robert: Do you remember the Sanford selling system? He had a great saying. He said, “Hurt them, then help them.”

Brett: Hurt them and then help them?

Robert: In other words, remind them where it’s hurting. I don’t realize I’m dissatisfied, but after I get really into these questions, they start to realize that the dissatisfaction’s higher than I realized. I’m just glossing it over.

Then they can start to look at the positive outcome, which is hard to look at if they’re not aware of the dissatisfaction.

Brett: You just have to be a tiny bit careful when you’re pushing the dissatisfaction button because if I say to you, “So Robert, you say you want to grow your marketing club. How satisfied are you with it today?” “Oh, I’m pretty satisfied. I think it’s doing great. I love it. It’s a good business.” I say, “Oh, well, I guess I don’t have an opportunity here anymore, right?”

Robert: “What aren’t you happy with?” I say.

Brett: You’re right. It ultimately becomes that you’re “dissatisfied” that it could be even better, but that’s just kind of a way of spinning it, right?

Robert: Yeah. Sometimes an aspiration is that I’m dissatisfied that I cannot fulfill my aspiration. It’s not that you're feeling terrible about things. You just have something that you can’t get, don’t know how to get, or are somewhat frustrated about getting. It’s not that everything’s bad. It’s just you don’t know how to get it.



Brett: It is true that if you want to be the most efficient with your time and just cut to the chase with the clients that would really move forward fast, then yes, those clients that are extremely dissatisfied and have a high sense of urgency would be the ones you’d want to spend your time with first because they’re the most likely to move forward.

Robert: That’s right. Also, this third one is a really important point, this thing about clear first steps. When you can assure people that you have a system, a methodology, an approach, proven this, that or the other thing, you have stuff to back it up, and you show it isn’t as hard as they think it is, all of that really relieves a lot of stress.

It’s like, “Oh, someone’s got an answer. Someone’s got an approach.” It’s extraordinarily powerful if you can talk about that as opposed to, “Well, the first step, oh well, it kind of depends. We could do anything.” There’s not a lot of confidence in that, so that makes people hesitate.

Brett: Well, the first steps are often the item that derails change from even getting off the ground.

Robert: I’ve seen the littlest things happen to derail change, sometimes a little technical thing. It’s a little stupid thing, but they let that stop them.

Brett: It could be that everyone really wants to make a change happen, especially when you talk about organizational culture. For example, I know someone who’s in an organizational culture where everyone is expected to know every detail about everything that’s going on in the company. It’s not very efficient. There’s a lot of duplication of effort, of course.



Everyone says, yes, it’s a problem, but then if you ask someone if they’re willing to be the person to stand up in the next meeting and say, “I don’t know that because it’s not efficient for the organization for me to know that,” they’re not willing to do it.

Everybody acknowledges the problems and their desire to make the change, but knowing the first step to putting that in place sort of prevents it from starting. It is important to identify the how.

Robert: I see this happen with my clients as they work through the material, and they start getting better and putting stuff together. The more they see this is going in the right direction, the steps are there, the motivation to change increases, and the economic and emotional issues are overweighed.

They say, “Well, I was afraid to do it, but I felt confident that it would work, and therefore, I plugged ahead at it.”

Brett: Robert, I have to give you another equation here because I think it fits perfectly with what you're saying.

Robert: Great.

Brett: The force for change equals C x U x S - SC.

Robert: That’s perfect.

Brett: C x U x S - SC.

Robert: That stands for?

Brett: This is saying the variables will determine the force for change, how big is the likelihood of change. The C stands for criticality. That means how critical is the situation for



the person or organization right now? Is it just an inconvenience, or at the other extreme, do they perceive that it’s life-threatening?

The U stands for urgency. How urgent is the situation? Is there a specific event or a force that will compel the person or organization to take action, and here’s the thing, at a specific point in time?

Then S is for confidence. You were talking about confidence in the ability to make the change

Robert: I thought it was C - U- S, as in Sam.

Brett: Yes. C is for criticality. I couldn’t use two Cs.

Robert: So we call that confidence.

Brett: Yeah because that’s success. Sorry, maybe it should be success. “S” equals success.

Robert: Good. Okay.

Brett: Confidence in the success of the proposed change.

Robert: Good.

Brett: The last one is the switching cost. Whatever switching cost is involved will act to lower the force for the change. If there’s huge cost involved in, say, disposing of the current solution or emotional or psychological costs, then that will be a force to resist the change.

Robert: These formulas are very similar, but there’s some subtlety to them. Not everybody is switching. I suppose you’re switching behavior. You’re switching the way you’re doing things. You’re starting to market instead of not marketing



or whatever the heck. You’re starting to do leadership differently than you’ve done before. That’s a change. Often that’s a big thing and a big resistance.

Brett: John Kotter, the very famous Harvard Business School professor wrote the book called Leading Change. Back in 1994, he wrote a Harvard Business Review article where he listed the eight big mistakes that he saw organizations make when trying to make change. That article ended up selling 2 million articles and became one of the all-time bestselling HBR articles.

Then he subsequently wrote a book with those, and out of those eight mistakes, he created a framework of eight steps to avoid those mistakes. It’s considered the seminal work in change leadership and change management in the management profession.

Step 1 is developing a sense of urgency. He found that is such an important step and that it’s one of the hardest to take. He wrote another book and dedicated it completely to developing a sense of urgency.

That’s why you can’t over-appreciate the importance of finding a sense of urgency or an event that will compel your customer to take action. It really goes back to that idea that people probably will not do anything until something forces them to do it.

Robert: Exactly.

Brett: Whatever that force is, is creating that urgency. It’s an important thing to look for when you’re trying to sell to your client.



Robert: These first three force fields of change, response and power analysis are all about the client, how they think, how they behave, what they want, what’s changing, what’s in the way.

Brett: And what’ll it take to make the change happen.

Robert: Then the next part, value creation, what’s that about?

Brett: The change has to have some benefit. Otherwise, why make it? Value creation is the discipline of identifying and communicating the benefit of the change.

Benefits are, perhaps, always talked about. Anybody who goes to any kind of a class on how to write content for their website they’re going to be told, “Make sure you list the benefits to your client. How will your client benefit from your service?”

You have to go quite deep. The stronger you can make your case of these benefits, and the more you can hit on their higher order need in Maslow’s hierarchy, then the more likely they are to make that change.

I have a little hierarchy of value. It starts with a feature. Let’s say I’m Robert, and I have a seven-step marketing process. That’s a feature. It’s got seven steps.

Then I say, “Well, the benefit is if you implement these, then you’ll be able to get more clients to come to your website where you’ll build your business.”

Then the next level in the hierarchy is that you have a solution. Not only do you have something with a set of features that has some benefits, but it solves some kind of



a problem. You solve the problem rather than just being a feature. A feature doesn’t do anything. It just exists, right?

Robert: Yeah.

Brett: The features might have some benefits, but once you can use those benefits to solve a problem, now you’ve created more value.

When you can start to develop qualitative arguments for the benefits of that solution, and then when you can start to quantify them, now you’re starting to build even higher value for your client.

Let me explain that in a little bit more depth. I need an example to illustrate it. Let’s go back to your marketing system and try to use that one.

Your client is having a hard time getting new clients. You have a system that will help them do that. Could you give me some benefits of your system in terms of how that will affect my business?

Robert: It’s a turnkey step-by-step system. That’s the feature. That makes it easier to implement, so it’s not so much struggle, not so much effort.

Brett: Then how will that financially benefit my business?

Robert: You’ll get clients faster. You’ll get bigger clients, and you’ll get clients more frequently.

Brett: Now, can you quantify that for me?

Robert: In this program, the potential is a $100,000 or more increase in your business.



Brett: Now, when I talk about quantifying, especially when we’re going into an organization, let’s say you’re going into a training department, and you’re doing that leadership training. You have to come up with some kind of an argument about how having better trained managers will ultimately yield more revenue or profits for the company.

Robert: You can do that from a lot of different angles.

Brett: Those are those qualitative arguments I’m trying to get to. Then when you quantify them, you have to say, “Since we have 100 people in this division, and we’ve got 10 managers, and you increase their productivity by 5%, then that means that we’ve got 100 people at 5% higher productivity,” you can start to derive real numbers, right?

Robert: Yes.

Brett: When you can really quantify it, and you can measure it afterward, now you’ve got really good, strong value proposition. The next highest value you can provide is when that change that you’re implementing actually helps them do something strategic in their business. That’s what I call “change response.” Their business or their organization is responding to these forces that they’re having to cope with.

Responding to the forces that they’re coping with is a soft argument. It’s intangible, but it actually is stronger than just saying, “These are numbers on a spreadsheet.” People don’t tend to appreciate numbers on a spreadsheet, but they internalize all these forces that they’re feeling.

The highest value you can provide your customer is what I call “self-aligned value.” That’s where you’re helping the



organization achieve its most cherished internal needs because you’re meeting the goals of the organization, not just raising productivity by 5%.

Robert: “Yeah, and I have this great service I want to sell you, and it’s a great service, and it’s wonderful,” and they say, “Well, yeah, but what does it mean to me and us?” As you say, self-aligned values are values. If you don’t know those, you can’t offer it.

Brett: You hit it on the head. What does it mean to me? You have to realize, not just even to the organization. It has to have value to each individual person that will affect your service.

Robert: Especially the guy writing the check.

Brett: Exactly. You want that person to get closer to retirement, get their promotion, have a little more comfort, hide from their boss, or whatever it is that they want that’s most valuable to them. If you can deliver that value, that’s the highest value you can actually deliver.

The more that you can identify those and create really strong visualizations of them, then the more people will perceive that the future state, the new change you’re going to make, will be a huge benefit.

A really important part of value creation is trying to demonstrate the value, not just talk about it, but try to literally do demonstrations of it.

Some ways to do that are videos. A lot of people recommend doing video testimonials of previous clients. It’s one thing that you have a quote of your client on your



website, but it’s another thing to have a video of them actually talking about how they were impacted by your service, and what they’re doing now.

Robert: Very powerful. The next is good case studies, really believable case studies.

Brett: Exactly.

Robert: Something that I did before the last Marketing Mastery is I had a teleclass with people in the existing Marketing Mastery telling how great it was and actually telling examples. Many people listened to that, and that was the convincing factor. When you add more than the written work, when you add the audio and the visual, it definitely adds impact.

Brett: Right. The purpose is to demonstrate so that people can visualize themselves in the new situation because it’s absolutely critical. That’s why that first formula I gave you had vision in it, I believe.

Vision was the second variable. Having that clear vision of the positive outcome that a change could bring is absolutely a requirement, and that’s why the whole discipline of value creation exists.

Robert: This is such great stuff, Brett. It’s a whole different look, in a way, at a whole persuasion model. How are people persuaded? They’re not persuaded by hucksterism.

The sad thing, the really unfortunate thing, is we as professionals often see selling and marketing as hucksterism. Therefore, we’ve got to avoid that.



You’re giving us a whole model that’s really based on a lot of research, a lot of experience. It definitely fits my experience of what it takes so that people are forced in the right way to take the right action.

Brett: For themselves.

Robert: It’s kind of a tragic thing. When you meet with a client, and you just know in your heart of hearts that what you have could change that company, but you haven’t got this process in a way to lay it out for them so that they can have the revelations themselves step by step, “Well, I want this. I need this, and this is what it’ll give me, and the proof is there,” before you know it, you’re working with them.

Brett: Exactly. You’ve got it.

Robert: There are a lot of things to consider in this process. It’s complex because the human mind is complex. It doesn’t just accept everything you say, so you really build this credibility step by step.

We’ve got a little time left. Let’s talk about the last one, activating the change.

Brett: When people think of change management, they usually think about a high-level executive saying, “We’re going to make some change whether you like it or not. Therefore, I’ve hired a change management consultant who’s going to work with HR, and they’re going to take you through the five stages of mourning so that you can just accept the fact that this change has been thrust upon you.”

Robert: That’s pretty funny.



Brett: And at the end that you’re happy that you have a job. That’s the typical sort of way change management works.

It is the case that the mourning process, the five stages of grief, are an important process in making change, but often, change is just thrust upon people, and they’re told, “You just need to go through the grief of wanting things to stay the same.”

A couple of people, I think it was Weiten and Lloyd, came up with another model. Kurt Lewin also was credited with this basic change model which says that today everything is in a steady state. It’s frozen in the current situation, and in order for people to move to a new situation, the first thing they have to do is unfreeze or let go of the current situation.

You think about it. I was thinking of an analogy earlier today. If you’re driving along in your business, let’s say with your marketing club, and it’s doing great, you’re in fourth gear, and you’re doing everything you can with the way you’re doing things today, and your tachometer says 4,000 RPMs, you’re just humming away, the only way that you’re going to get better is if you shift gears.

That means sort of, in a way, stopping what you’re doing. It at least means putting in the clutch to shift to another way to make some changes that are going to make it even better.

The first step in this process is letting go of the current situation so that you’re freeing yourself up to be in a new gear. The first step is unfreezing and letting go.



The second step is, I guess, dying. You let the current situation die. It’s really your expectation, of course, that you’re letting die, not actually the situation.

Then when you actually start to make the change, it’s a process of rebirth. It’s kind of like you took your gearshift out of Gear 4, and you said, “I’m no longer going to be in Gear 4. I’m leaving that in the past.” Now you’re going to move into a new gear, and it’s like a new birth. It’s a whole new life, a new situation where you’re in this new gear.

Oftentimes that’s accompanied by confusion, especially when the change involves a big organization. At first they resist the change, and often, one person or an organization says, “You know what? Let’s do this.” Then they get really excited.

That’s good, but then they get too excited and they say, “You’re right. This thing’s totally going to work. Let’s go do this. I want all the benefits. I see the benefits, and I want them today.”

Robert: I have a great analogy for this. I want to start an exercise program. I’ve been thinking about it forever, blah-da, blah-da, blah-da. I’ve gone through this several times myself. You get the videos or the equipment or whatever the heck it is, and you do it for a few days. If you haven’t exercised for a few months, what you have after two or three days is incredible soreness.

I can imagine the new change, and I can let go of my lethargy, and I’m ready and excited, but man, that period of soreness is enough to stop a lot of people. They never get past that three days. It’s like, “It’s not worth it. I’m going to go back to eating donuts and watching TV.”



Brett: Exactly. This is complicated a little bit by confusion. “Do I want to do this? Do I not? What’s it going to take? I’m sore. How do I make it through this?” It’s a messy process when you’re actually making the change.

Ultimately, you get into the new rhythm of things, and what happens? It becomes a new homeostasis. You refreeze into a new habit, if you will.

The key thing there is to help your client. Make sure that you put in place mechanisms that really lock that change into place and keep it there. The tendency, just like in your exercise analogy, is to stop, to not have the change stick. “This exercising is great, but I don’t have time today. I’ll just skip today.”

You want to make sure that you don’t let the change lose its momentum. You have to lock it into place. That’s really what the actuation, the discipline is all about. It’s taking the customer through the emotional process.

I guess, as an organization, yes, there are technical. You can put it into a project plan. You can have work breakdown structures. You can have risk assessments and all these technical aspects, but change leadership also has to take into account that there is this grieving and coping process that also has to happen in order for the organization to actually make the change. It’s a living organization, not just line items on a project plan.

Robert: A lot of my clients have found that when they do training, change management leadership development, you name it, and they do things in groups and planning and all that kind of stuff, a thing that makes a big difference is the personal one-on-one coaching to address those really



specific pains and issues and “I’m stuck,” and all that kind of stuff. It depends of course on the quality of the coach, but the difference is amazing.

You’re saying that and other things are there to help you in the transition.

Brett: One of the mistakes that a bunch of psychologists that have studied this stuff observed is that the change agents, if you will, that are in the coaching or counseling or consulting role often stop too soon.

You get to the new state, but it’s not done until it’s been done for a while. It’s really something to consider even when you’re writing your contracts as a consultant. Make sure that the customer understands that there needs to be a little extra time for follow-up after the project is completed.

Robert: Make that an integral part of it, in fact. A lot of my people do six-month and 12-month programs because it takes that long for change to really happen. It takes a while because it is a big upset.

You’re getting me to see my whole business in a whole new light. This has been a fantastic interview. I’m seeing that I’m doing some of these things, but by seeing these different steps, it’s giving me some amazing insights.

Brett: Excellent. That’s what it’s really all about because there’s a lot of complexity and a lot of psychology in all this, but it’s really just trying to look for insights that would help you take a specific action today that might have an incrementally better result.



Robert: What we didn’t get into is some of the technical things of closing and asking to move ahead and blah-da, blah-da, all that stuff. We can’t cover everything in this.

My sense is that if you can manage your sales conversations in this way to go through these steps, it’s an interesting thing. Often the client will say, “What’s the next step? This sounds great. How do you implement this?”

You start getting buying signs or what I call “the client asking you to ask them to play.” It starts to happen. Once you’ve drawn this out so clearly and so powerfully, people want to take the next step.

Brett: Now, one message I want to make sure we get in here in this interview is that the mindset that I recommend people have in employing this is that they are counselors because a counselor is different than a consultant.

A consultant assesses and gives you a specific recommendation. Well, counselors aren’t even allowed really to even respond to what their client is saying. Their role is to facilitate the client through their own discovery in an assessment process, so the client comes to their own solutions and owns their own changes.

It’s classic, and I’ve done this myself. How many times do we, like you said, know that a client can get so much value? You see how you can help them and, “If that darn horse isn’t going to drink the water, I’m going to drink the water for them.” The horse still dies of thirst, but you feel better.



One of the things we have to be very careful that we do is always make sure that we’re putting the ownership in the hands of the client and that we are simply facilitating them through their own process.

You can play an absolutely instrumental and enabling role in that by walking them through this process we talked about today. Make sure that they don’t try to put the ownership on you, because you will fail.

Robert: You’re going to facilitate change. You’re not going to do the change. My friend, Patrick Summar says, “You’re the coach, and the coach doesn’t play. You’re the player. You play. I’m the coach. I facilitate,” whatever metaphor you want to use.

Brett: It’s so easy to fall into that trap. Here’s a consultant that’s coming in to do leadership training to teach people to be leaders rather than managers. Then they of course have to have some kind of acceptance criteria or some success criteria that they’re going to achieve.

At the end, the client could say, “That training just didn’t work. I didn’t like that consultant. All of our people are still being managers.” You don’t want to be in that situation, and it’s easy to fall into it.

Robert: I actually tell people don’t sell training. It’s a commodity. Sell change. Sell results. Sell solutions, and then help them deliver on them.

Brett: Help your customer deliver on those rather than you.

Robert: Brett, this has been a great interview. I’m really excited. It’s given me some great ideas for my business. It’ll give



my existing clients that are in my Marketing Mastery great ideas. I’ll make sure they listen to this. It’ll help the people in the club.

Brett has a book called 101 Secrets to Selling Change. This book just won an award?

Brett: It did, actually. It won the Independent Publisher Book Award of 2010.

Robert: You cover all the kind of stuff we talked about today in the book, right?

Brett: Yes.

Robert: You're going to want to get this book. I’ll provide a link to Amazon. I think you’re sending me one, which I appreciate, but I’m going to make sure a lot of people get this book from you. I think it could be a big turning point for a lot of people.

Brett: I have one little plug in here. I think one of the reasons why it won the award is that it was designed as a handbook to be used as sort of a reference.

It has 101 secrets that are each two pages long. The one side says, “What I need to know,” and it’s 250 words, so that’s two or three paragraphs only. Then the other side says, “What do I need to do? How do I implement that?”

Each one of those secrets is kind of stand-alone, so you can literally flip to a page, read the two pages, and say, “Let’s think. Today I’m going to do such and such for so and so,” as a result of you reading those two pages.

Robert: Wow!



Brett: People like how you don’t have to slog through. My previous book was 368 pages, and it was kind of like a textbook.

Robert: That’s great if someone’s teaching it, but those are hard books to get through individually. They really are.

Brett: They’re hard. What’s nice about this one is your listeners, especially within your coaching practice, can just flip to a page and get something and say, “Okay, I get that. I’ll go do something about that.”

Robert: Fantastic. Brett, I really want to thank you for taking the time for doing this interview. It’s really been fun. I’ve learned a lot, and I’m sure everyone else has.

Brett: Excellent! Great! I appreciate it. Thank you so much.

Robert: All right. Thank you.

Documents

BE A MINER, NOT A PROSPECTOR 1 Robert …actionplan.com/pdf/bclay_10.pdfIt’s a pleasure to be here, Robert. Robert: This is going to be an interesting and very relevant topic, I