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Transcript: BBC Question Time, 22 October 2009DD: … Tonight, finally they face our audience, the voters. Welcome to QuestionTime.[credits]And with me tonight, Jack Straw, the Justice Secretary, formerly a Home andForeign Secretary. The Conservative Shadow Minister for Community Cohesion,Sayeeda Warsi, recently named the most powerful Muslim woman in Britain. Theman narrowly beaten by Nick Clegg to the leadership of the Liberal Democrats,the party’s Home Affairs spokesman, Chris Huhne. The leader of the BritishNational Party, Nick Griffin. And the American-born playwright and deputydirector of the British Museum, Bonnie Greer.Well, good evening and welcome, and as always the panelists haven’t seen thequestions in advance. Let’s have the first question from Peter Logg, Peter Logg.Logg: Given that the second world war was fueled by the need to disarmoppressive and racist regimes, is it fair that the BNP has hijacked Churchill as itsown?DD: Is it fair that the BNP has hijacked Churchill? Jack Straw.JS: Its certainly not fair, and one of the extraordinary things about the secondworld war and the first world war, was not only that we fought Nazism in thesecond world war and defeated it – a party and an ideology based on race, justlike another party represented here today, based on race, fundamental to itsconstitution. And its that difference by the way, the fact that the BNP definesitself on race, which distinguishes it from every other political party I can thinkof. And what is common of every other political party that I can think of,regardless of their political differences, is that they have, each have a moralcompass, and they show respect, a recognizable moral compass for them, basedon longstanding cultural and philosophical and religious values of Westernsociety. Nazism didn’t, and neither I’m afraid does the constitution of the BNP.The other thing I’ll say is this. We only won the first world war, and we only wonthe second world war, because we were joined in those wars by millions of blackand Asian people from around the world.[applause][02:41 CAPTION: follow on Twitter @bbcquestiontime]My constituency’s twinned with a little town in Northern France called Peron.[02:52 CAPTION: text your comments to 83981 normal rates apply digital TVpress red button; ceefax page 155] It was massacred in the first world war at thebattle of the Somme. Hundreds of people from East Lancashire, lads from EastLancashire, were killed. If you go the Peron military cemetery, just outside Peron,

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you’ll find 577 young men buried there. 257 of those come from East Lancashire.They’ve got names like Ainsworth and Barnes. The others, more than half, haveIndian or Pakistani-sounding names., like Mohammed Khan, from the 18th KingsOwn Lancets, or Sheikh Mohammed. These people died together to fight for us.And that’s why having a multiracial society, and ensuring that race-based politicshas no place in our society, is fundamental for decent British values, which areheld by most people in this country.DD: Nick Griffin, you said that if Churchill were alive today, his own place wouldbe in the British National Party. Why did you say that, and why did you hijack hisreputation?NG: Um, I said that Churchill belonged in the British National Party because noother party would have him, for what he said on the early days of massimmigration into this country, for that face that, quote, they’re only coming forour benefits system. And for the fact that in his younger days he was extremelycritical of the dangers of fundamentalist Islam, in a way that nowadays would bedescribed as Islamophobic. Er, I believe er that the whole of the effort in thesecond world war and the first is designed to preserve British sovereignty,British freedom – which Jack Straw’s government is now giving away lock, stockand smoking barrel to the European Union – and to prevent this country beinginvaded by foreigners. Finally, my father was in the RAF during the second worldwar, while Mr Straw’s father was in prison for refusing to fight Adolf Hitler.[boos]DD: Wait a minute, what’s that got to do with the issue? What’s that got to dowith the issue?NG: Mr Straw was attacking me, and I’ve been relentless attacked and demonizedover the last few days, and the fact is, my father was in the RAF during thesecond world war. I’m not a nazi, I never have been.DD: The man there.A1: Erm yeah, I’d just like to say to Nick Griffin about the whole issue of Europeand how you’re against, seem to be against Europe, when 80 percent of our tradeis with the European Union…DD: Ok, we make come to that later. We’re talking about race issues at themoment. You sir.A2: You see, I think its an absolute disgrace that you can’t even take on boardwhat Jack Straw’s just said. You’re organization has been going for over nine anda half thousand days, and its only in the past month or so that you’ve actually hadyour hands behind your back and been forced to look at accepting people of adifferent ethnic and racial background. And for just one minute could you notthink about the benefits that parents, that my parents brought to this country,and other parents from an Asia, from an Indian, from a Pakistani have brought?

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No. All you’re thinking of doing is trying to, sort of, erm, poison politics [NGshakes head], yes you are, poison politics, and poison the minds of people in thiscountry. The vast majority of this audience find what you stand for to becompletely disgusting and reprehensible. Completely disgusting![applause]DD: Do you want to answer that?NG. Well, without a shadow of a doubt, I’m sure you can appreciate that if youlook at some of the things I’m quoted as having said, in the Daily Mail today andso on, I’d be a monster. Those are outrageous lies.DD: Which is the untrue quote that’s been said about you? The holocaust denialpossible?NG: The vast majority of them, far too many to go into, er but er…[laughter]DD: Alright…CH: Let let meDD: Denying the holocaust for instance, did you deny the holocaust? Yes you did.NG: I do not have a conviction for holocaust denial.DD: But you did deny it? Why are you smiling? It’s not a particularly amusingissue.NG: I, I was very critical of the way in which the holocaust was, and is, in fact,abused, to prevent serious discussion over immigration.DD: Just, you say you were misquoted. Ethnicity: “I want to see become…”[applause] Wait wait, please, ethnicity, “I want to see Britain become 99 percentgenetically white, just as she was 11 years before I was born”. On race, right,mixed marriages: “Its sad when a unique human genome type becomes extinct.”Islam, we’ll come to it later. You say you’re misquoted. All I’m saying is, I can’tfind the misquotation, and apparently nor can you.NG: No, a misquotation in the Mail today said I think black people walk likemonkeys. That is an outrageous lie, and I appreciate you being extraordinarilyangry about a statement like that. I never said such a thing, I never said such athing.A2: Its not false statements.DD: Ok, if we can go round the table, Sayeeda Warsi.

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SW: If I can go back to the question that was asked, I think that any political partywhich erm has the values of the BNP, does not share the values of Churchill andof our armed forces, and therefore its disgusting that they should use thoseimages. And, er, I think that if I can follow on from what Jack said, er, there weremany many people from different coloured backgrounds, different religions, whofought alongside British soldiers to fight facism. Er, I have my own my historyown family. Both my paternal and maternal grandfather fought in the secondworld war, and at a time when my forefathers were fighting facism, the BNP’sforefathers were celebrating nazi Hitler as a hero. And I think today, as we talkabout how Churchill is viewed by the BNP, I’d like to refer to one quote, I’m goingto have to have some bleeps in. This is from Mark Collett, who’s the BNP’sdirector of publicity [NG: no he’s not], and er he basically said this. Churchill wasan f-ing xxxxxxx who led us into a pointless war with other whites, i.e. the Nazis,who were standing up for their race. He says things like that about Churchill intheir party and they dare use Churchill’s image in their election leaflets, itsdisgusting.[applause]DD: Bonnie GreerBG: Listen, I’m not a politician, I don’t know anything about politics, mybackground is culture, and I’m a historian. Nick and I both have undergraduatedegrees in, wait, do you have an undergraduate degree in history?NG: In lawBG: Right in law. OK the problem with this Churchill thing, is the problem with alot of the history of the British people that er Nick Griffin has on his website. Yousee Churchill, if you look at the constitution of the BNP (I know its, I know youhave to change it now, which will be interesting) that er, know you can laugh butif I was a BNP member I’d be scared, um[laughter, applause]BG: The thing is, um, Churchill’s mother was an American. Now there is hints inher side of the family that they were also possibly Mohawk Indian. Now if all ofthis was brought together, Mr Churchill couldn’t have actually been a member ofthe BNP as it was constituted, that’s the absurdity of the whole thing. And you dohave to ask yourself a question: What kind of so-called political party is based onan idea of indigenous people? It just doesn’t exist.[applause]DD: Ok, I’ll go to you Chris in a moment. The man in the yellow pullover in thevery back row please.

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A3: As I recall, a senior member of the shadow cabinet under Ted Heath wascalled Enoch Powell, and his views were almost identical to Mr Griffin. And thatgentleman actually shoed Ted Heath in to Number 10 with those views.DD: Ok. Chris Huhne?CH: Well let me answer that directly because I think it’s interesting. What we’redealing with here with Nick Griffin and the BNP is a politics which is as old as thehills. It’s a politics of finding people to blame, to scapegoat, and that’s exactlywhat Enoch Powell did in the rivers of blood speech, and I don’t think he’drecognize this country today. If you think that one in two of all Afro-Caribbeanchildren under the age of 16 either have a white father or a white mother, that’show far this country has changed since Enoch Powell made that speech.[applause] We had this we had this in the 1930s against the Jews, in the 1960sagainst the blacks, and now Nick Griffin’s playing the same only game, hatred andfear, peddling hatred and fear against a minority that actually has to defenditself. And I think that’s outrageous, its completely against the traditions of thiscountry, and I think frankly Churchill would be rolling in his grave. There arethree parties represented on this panel who can say something about Churchill’slegacy. He was a Liberal for many years, he was a Conservative for many years,and of course he led a government that was composed of Labour ministers. Butone thing he was never, was actually a facist, and what we have in Nick Griffin –and I would like his view, see if he’s been misquoted on this because this wasvideo footage, there’s no evidence of him being misquoted – this is his technique:“Perhaps one day” – he’s going to try to be very moderate today – “Perhaps oneday, once by being rather more subtle, we’ve got ourselves in a position wherewe control the British broadcasting media, then perhaps the British people mightchange their minds, and say yes – every last one must go, every single member ofan ethnic minority.” And this is the man who when we’re talking about fightingfascism, this is the man who said, “Yes, perhaps Adolf went a bit too far.” Nowwhich “bit too far”, Nick Griffin, did Adolf Hitler go? Was it in gassing the Jews,was it in bombing British cities, where, where he’s now trying to get votes?[applause]DD: Ok, Nick GriffinNG: That is just another one of those liesDD: Sorry, which lies?NG: I’m talking about the one Adolf went a bit too far. I never said such a thing. Iam the most loathed man in Britain in the eyes of British Nazis. There are Nazisin Britain, and they loathe me because I am the man who has brought the partyfrom being yes frankly an anti-semetic and racist party, to being now the onlyBritish political party in the clashes between Israel and Gaza stood fullsquarebehind Israel’s right to deal with Hamas terrorists.2:58

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CH: Well answer this point about the video. Because there is no question of youbeing misquoted on that, its on video, and you are saying…DD: Wait a moment, wait a moment, there’s another point about this video whichI’ve seen, anyone can see it, its on YouTube, and you were there with theAmerican Friends of the BNP, and you were there with the head of the Klu KluxKlan [NG: No] David Duke, he’s there in the picture standing beside you. And theinteresting thing to me is [NG shakes head] – its there, its there, I’ve seen it [NG: Ican explain it] – alright, he’s in disguise perhaps [laughter], but this is the keypoint and it goes to the heart of the programme tonight and what you’ve beensaying and what Chris Huhne’s been saying about changing the views of the BNP.What you actually said, which is what he quoted, is that “Perhaps one day theBritish people might change their minds”. But if you put that, i.e. getting rid of allcoloured people from Britain, as you sole aim to start with, then you’re going togetting absolutely nowhere. “So instead of talking about racial purity, we talkabout identity. We use salable words: freedom, identity, democracy, nobody cancome and attack you on those ideas.” But the truth is, what you were sayingthere, that’s just the start of the story, and when we’ve won public support, thenwe can go to our proper agenda.CH: Absolutely.[applause]NG: I was, I was, I shared a platform with David Duke, who was once a leader of aKlu Klux Klan organisation, always a totally non-violent one incidentally[laughter/howls][4.25 follow on Twitter @bbcquestiontime]BG: Nick, Nick, Nick, excuse me, don’t go and talk about the Klu Klux Klan,because I know…NG: It’s a vast a vile organizationBG: I can tell you all about Davide Duke, we don’t have time for that[4.42 text your comments to 83981 normal rates apply digital TV press redbutton: ceefax page 155]NG: But, further to David Duke, he detests where I stand, he regards me as a sellout. I’ve shared a platform arguing, and when you’re trying to win people over toa more moderate position [BG is gesturing] you have to go some way to startwith where they come from. That for instance is the way the Labour party andothers ended up with Sinn Fein in government.

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DD: So you were saying these things not because you meant them but as a way ofwinning him over? In other words, you wanted to win over a racist to your view,and you said “we start by being moderate”.NG: Not to win over him, I’m trying to win over youngsters he’d otherwise leadastray. But can we reframe this whole question…DD: But the point about this is why should anybody trust what you say, whyshould anybody think its more than a façade?NG: Why should anybody trust any politician, all of us [gestures along the panel]JS: Could I just come in here, because we’ve seen in the last week and we’ve seenthis evening, the moment anybody puts an uncomfortable quotation to Mr Griffinhe says it wasn’t like that, I didn’t say that. Well most of us have actually seenthese things on YouTube, I saw Mr Griffin saying this on YouTube [NG nods] – ohyou did say it? – out of his own mouth. Time and again. They’ve even publishedtheir own manual, its called the BNP Language and Concepts Discipline Manual,er, which starts off Rule 1, “The BNP is not a racist or racial party”. Well no otherparty has to say they’re not a racist or racial party. Secondly, just one second,“Don’t hesitate to repudiate bad aspects of the BNP’s past.” And this, I’ll tell youwhat it reminds me of, its reminds me of Dr Strangeglove. This guy is the DrStrangelove of British politics.[laughter, applause]DD: Ok, I want to go to members of the audience. The person in, the woman inthe second row at the back there, please, yes.A4: Hello, I’d like to here from Mr Griffin in a little bit more detail about hispolicies of repatriation.DD: We’ll come to that, alright? I promise you it’ll be our next topic. The personthere in the brown pullover on.A5: Brown? Its green. Er, I wonder what Mr Griffin’s venomous tongue wouldlike to say about, because he’s said he’s brought the British National Party awayfrom racism, well why has it taken many years of legal action and the EqualitiesCommission to force you to change your entrance policy, from erm only whitemembers?DD: Ok. And the woman here on the right.A6: Erm, I’m interested to know how you define an ethnic minority when itscommonly known that the human race is believed to have started in Africa, so,essentially, all of us are an ethnic minority. [applause]DD: The person in the blue shirt, up there, at the back. I’m just taking somecomments here. The person in the blue shirt with spectacles on, yes, you sir.

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A7: Sir Winston Churchill…DD: No, you’ve got a white shirt, but fire away.A7: Sir Winston Churchill put everything on the line so that my ancestorswouldn’t get, y’know, slaughtered in the concentration camps. But here says aman who says that’s a myth, like a flat world was a myth. How can you say that?NG: I, can I, answer those three points, very briefly? First of all, I cannot explainwhy I used to say those things, I can’t tell you, anymore than I can tell you whyI’ve changed my mind, I can’t tell you the extent to which I’ve changed my mind,because European law, because European law prevents me… [jeers]CH: This is rubbish.JS: There is no law here that stops you explaining yourself.CH: And we refused a European arrest warrant on precisely this on a holocaust,from a country that does require holocaust denial to be an offence, and werefused that.JS: And as Justice Minister, I can tell you, if you want to explain why you don’tbelieve it… go on.BG: Nick, go on, tell us! You got it!DD: You have the freedom now to explain it.NG: But unfortunately the French courts and the German courts …JS: I’ll sort that out for you as well!BG: He’s the Justice Minister!JS: Come on!DD: I have a question. Have you actually changed your mind, or are you onlysaying you’ve changed your mind because the law makes it illegal to be aholocaust denier?NG: I, I, I have changed my mind. A lot of its about figures, and one of the keythings, yes, yes, one of the key things that has changed my mind is British radiointercepts of German transmissions about the brutal mass murder of innocentJews on the Eastern front during anti-partisan warfare, which changes thefigures very dramatically.JS: But that requires some intercepts…

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NG: Can I get back to the other points…JS: What about Auschwitz? People have seen with their own eyes in Auschwitz.You didn’t need subsequent radio intercepts to find out people were gassed atAuschwitz. [applause]DD: We’re going to move on now, we’re going to move on. We’ve, we’ve, we’vespent a lot, twenty minutes on that first question. There are many many otherquestions and many issues to be raised, many of them inevitably centred on theBNP, and I want to take the following one from Tariq Ali, please.TA: Why is Islam a wicked and vicious faith?DD: This is a quotation that, er, you [NG] made, twice, I think, about er Islam. Itwas wicked and vicious. You confirmed it the other day. You start off: Why is it awicked and vicious faith?NG: Because it treats women as second class citizens. Because it says that womenvictims of rape should be stoned to death for adultery. And because it orders itsfollowers to be harsh to the unbelievers who live near to them and it ordains, asa religious duty, the murder of Jews, as well as other non-Muslims. That’s in theQuran, there’s no point shaking your head. There are good points about Islam,for instance it opposes usery, it wouldn’t have let the banks run riot in the waythat the Labour Party and the Tory Party have done. There are good points, but itdoesn’t fit in with the fundamental values of British society: free speech,democracy, and equal rights for women.[quiet applause]DD: So what’s your policy on Islam?NG: My policy with Is, my policy with Islam, is a truce with Islam. I’m not the onewith the blood of 800,000 Iraqis on my hands after an illegal war, whereas JackStraw is. I’ve never hurt a single Muslim. I believe that the West should stoptrying to de-Islamicise the Middle East, and should leave foreign countries to runtheir own affairs. We shouldn’t have gone into Iraq, we must never go into Iran,despite that’s where the Tories will take us, in due course. We should leave themalone, but if Muslims are staying in this country it is with the understanding thatthis country must remain a fundamentally British and Christian country.[quiet applause]DD: Sorry, can you just, can you just explain, if Muslims do stay in this country,what must they do?NG: They must acknowledge that Britain always has been and must remain, andits right that it should always remain, a fundamentally British and Christiancountry based on Western democratic values and not on the eternal values of theQuran.

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DD: Sayeeda WarsiSW: From that very interesting answer I can’t work out whether he despisesMuslims or he thinks they’re his best friends. Erm, he’s obviously, Mr Griffin’sobviously a confused man, er, because on the one hand he says he doesn’t believein or abide by lots of values that he attributes quite wrongly to Islam. Erm, andyet it was Mr Griffin who was on the front cover of a magazine along with ColonelQadafi, Ayotollah Khomeni and Louis Farakan and himself, calling himself thenew alliance. It was also Mr Griffin who shared a platform with Abu Hamza,many of you may know him as Captain Hook, most Muslims know him as a nutterfrom the East End of London and therefore not even part of the faith of Islam.And yet Mr Griffin considers him to be a sheikh, i.e. a Muslim scholar, and hebelieves that he and Abu Hamza have similar views. Mr Griffin is a thoroughlydeceptive man who comes on here and tries to sell whatever message. He’s nofriend of Islam, he’s here to demonise Islam, just as he demonises Christianity,because, you know, there is nothing Islamic about the likes of Abu Hamza andothers, who actually preach extremism in the name of that faith. Mr Griffinpreaches extremism in the name of Christianity and brings that faith intodisrepute as well.[3.20 applause]A8: I’d like to say to Mr Griffin, travelling is all about education, educating yourmind, understanding things, and I’d like to know how much travelling you’vedone around the world, because that is one sure way of understanding anotherculture or religion. How much travelling have you done Nick?NG: I’ve been around Europe, to the United States, I went to Libya long before themembers of the Labour government recently and I said to representatives ofQadafi that before he does anything else he should stop funding the IRA, whichmight be why…JS: You wanted him to fund you instead.SW: Yes, you did.DD: The man with the spectacles on over there.A9: Thank you very much. I won’t attack you Nick, but I’m a a proud to be aBritish Bangladeshi Muslim who has stood for parliament before in order toserve the British public, erm, and I understand the importance of dialoguebetween communities. However, I find that you’re refusing, you’re isolatingpeople like myself, the Muslim community, by refusing to engage positively.Instead you are misrepresenting er Islam and scaring people aboutIslamification. Surely, er, if that is, if you fear, er, Islamic laws or sharia laws,surely you should be going after the Christian, the indigenous Christiancommunity, because you’re advocating Christianity. In the last book of the bible,in Revelations, it does say in two places that when Christ comes back his rule, er,

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will be like a rod of iron, and nations will be smashed like potted clay. So whyisolate Muslims and not target Christianity?[applause]BG: Well everybody, we can all lay out stories out, and talk about how we seeBritain, that we know what Britain is. This doesn’t really matter to Nick, notreally Nick not really. What matters to Nick is his own vision of this country,which is this little tiny potted bits of history [?????] He starts his history roundabout 700AD, er, where is the rest of British history? Where is the Romans?There’s a reason the Romans aren’t there: because they were a multiculturalsociety. Anybody could be a Roman citizen, and there were armies here ofAfricans, of Asians, and Europeans, and when Rome left, those people were leftbehind. Now what happened to them, do you think they hooked up with yourindigenous ice age Britons?5.51NG: Well…DD: I’m going to move on to another point, as I think we’re getting a bit off beamhere (no I’ll come to you Jack in a moment). Just to say before we do, you canfollow this pro…you can follow us on twitter, BBC Question Time. You can text us83981 if you want to comment on this programme as its going along, ceefax page155 will tell you what others are saying, push the red button digitally, email us ifyou would like to do that.[6.02 follow on Twitter @bbcquestiontime][6.06 text your comments to 83981 normal rates apply digital TV press redbuttons: ceefax page 155][6.14 bbc.co.uk/questiontime]Johnny Lyall pleaseJL: Can the recent success of the BNP be explained by the misguided immigrationpolicy of the government? [applause]DD: Jack Straw. Can the recent success of the BNP be explained by the misguidedimmigration policy of the government?JS: I don’t think it can. I just want to… we mentioned Enoch Powell earlier, hecame out as Sayeeda said and Chris did, remarked with this terrible speech aboutrivers flowing with much blood, a 1968 speech. 1960 he was Minister of Health,and he launched a campaign to recruit Afro-Caribbean people from the WestIndies to come to this country to fill vacancies in the National Health Service. I’veseen the press notice, he went out there, er, and so it wasn’t a Labourgovernment that was responsible for …DD: Yes but you’ve been in power now for nearly 12 years so let’s deal with thepresent Jack Straw and not go back to Enoch Powell.JS: Well no…

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DD: Let’s deal with the question. Is the rise of the BNP, which has happened veryrecently, is that because of your government’s policies? That’s what Johnny Lyallis asking so can you answer that?JS: The BNP is a transmogrification from the National Front, the National Party,the British Union of Fascists before this. As, er, as Chris has been pointing out,we’ve long had fringe parties in British politics defining themselves against theother. Originally it was the Jews, then it was against the Irish, then it was againstthe Afro-Caribbeans, now it happens to be against the Muslims. As far asimmigration’s concerned, my point is, that we’ve had a long history ofimmigration into this country. I scarcely know anybody, certainly, I’m not one ofthem, who can say they are true British or true English, because we’ve all got allkinds of mixtures inside myself…DD: Are you saying there’s no worry about immigration in this country, is thatthe point you’re making? I can’t make out what you’re saying.JS: Of course there is a worry, but I also say to you, and the latest figures show,there’s been a net reduction in the increase in immigration to this country. Theoutflow because of the downturn has been greater, and so, we are seekingactively to control the numbers better. So for instance we’ve introduced thepoints based system for work permits, and asylum numbers have come downabout a third from where they were. But on the issue of whether we can pull upthe drawbridge and stop people coming into this country, can we stop peoplewho come from a different country who then are British citizens from marryingwho they wish to choose from wherever it is in the world – certainly not. Er,because, one of the great strengths of this country is its diversity, and for thefuture – and of course I understand this, I understand it very acutely in my ownconstituency, where now 30 percent of the population are of Asian origin – that itcan be very disturbing to people when they see change in front of their eyes, andwe are dealing with that…DD: Sorry, can I try just one more time, Jack Straw, Jack Straw, can I just try onemore time to either answer the question no or yes [JS: I answered the questionat the start], that the rise of the BNP, and the reason that Mr Griffin is on thispanel tonight is because of their success in the European parliament as you wellknow, and they got two seats in Europe, is that because of failings by yourgovernment over the last 12 years to reassure people about the scale ofimmigration, or not?JS: I don’t believe it is, if you want to know why – and I said this right at thebeginning David – if you want to know why the BNP won in the North West andin Yorkshire in June is a lot to do with discontent with all the political parties,particularly over the issue of expenses.SW: Jack, I think there are certain things that mainstream political parties needto be honest about, and I think that answer is not an honest answer [applause].There are a whole series

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SW: There are a whole series of issues which are affecting people who vote forthe British National Party. I come from Dewsbury where at the last election wehad the largest BNP vote of anywhere in the country. I campaigned and Icanvassed and I met many many people who voted for the BNP. And there arereal issues around poverty, around deprivation, around lack of social mobility,and immigration. It is an issue. There are many people who feel the pace ofchange in their communities has been too bad, er, has been too fast, and that thegovernment has not properly resourced those particular areas to respond to thatchange. Now we can do one of two things. I’m not prepared to have the debate asthe BNP would like to have the debate on immigration, which is all about blackand brown people. This is not a race debate. This is a debate about resources,and the mainstream political parties have a responsibility to take on this debate,to actually tackle the issues, the underlying issues that are making some peoplevote for the BNP. Because I’ve said this before, and I’ll say it again. What the BNPare, they’re activists and their members, I don’t think there’s any doubt about it,Mr Griffin has proved that by his evasive answers today. But there are manymany people out there who vote for the British National Party who are not racist.There is lots of statistical evidence to prove that. And therefore what we have todo is go out and say to those people, as mainstream political parties, is we areprepared to listen, we are prepared to deal with this, and you do not have to turnto a racist, fascist party who have there own agenda to deliver the solution to, er,on your concerns.DD: But what are you [applause], what precisely are you prepared to do?SW: Well there are a number of things that we have to do. First of all I don’t thinkthe people of this country say we don’t want black of brown people, what theysay is, we need a cap on the number of people who are coming here. We need toknow year by year how many people are going to be coming, we need to knowyear by year how many people are leaving, we need to know that those peoplewho should not be here are removed properly, we need to know, we need to, weneed…DD: Who’s saying “do it”?A3: Just do it! You just lost 40,000 people in the system! Where are they?SW: Sir I would say to you, I would say to you the Conservative Party policy isvery very clear. We would have an annual cap, we would have an annual limit.We would look every year, we would speak to industry, we would look at ourresources, we would look at our needs. [JS: That’s exactly what we’re doing]. Butwhat we would not do, what we would not do, hold on a minute what we wouldnot do is pull up the drawbridge, because Britain should have the brightest andthe best from around the world and we should welcome them because they makea contribution to our society. [applause]DD: The man over there who, I want to come to you, the man over there with themoustache, then I’ll come to you with the striped tie.

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A9: Wasn’t it the Conservative Party who joined the EU, who’s landed us with allthe migrants from other countries coming in at the moment? It was theConservatives’ doing, not the Labour’s doing, wasn’t?DD: So the European Union immigration’s what worries you sir. And you sir atthe front here, the gentleman here.A10: I agree more with the lady on the panel, I’m sorry I’ve forgotten your…DD: Sayeeda Warsi]A10: ErDD: Well there are two ladies, Bonnie Greer and this lady here.A10: I remember Bonnie’s name. But I think the problem is, Labour has failedwith immigration. People are disgruntled about that. There are all these reportsthat you read, things you see in your own communities, and an easy way to ventyour anger is a cross in the box for the BNP. And a lot of the people that did votefor the BNP did it I imagine out of anger and a feeling of “what else can I do”, andthey’re not racist people I imagine, so…DD: Nick Griffin is nodding, saying people voted for him not because theypursued his policies but because they were frustrated with…A10: Sorry Nick but [NG: In some cases yes] I would imagine that’s the case, and Iwelcome the Conservative Party’s policies on this.DD: Hold on a moment, let’s just here some more points. The person in purplethere, in the middle.03:48A11: I would, I would say that er, I would answer no personally to the question.The reason being that everyone really here knows that Nick Griffin’s mission isto give the BNP more credibility and pull this, sort of, veneer of respectability ontop of the party. So he’s going to he’s going to wrap his slimey arms around anybandwagon going to give him a bit more credibility and make everybody nodtheir heads even if its, sort of, hollow.DD: And the person in the middle, the one in the middle there, yes.A12: Thank you, er, I agree with everything that Baroness, erm, Warsi said, butalso as well I think the public, erm, who are voting for the BNP do need to beeducated about what Nick stands for. He’s basically a wolf in sheep’s clothing ashe’s demonstrated this evening. How does someone who’s non-racist and allthese lies he’s been saying that’s been said about him, end up going to the Hitler,what were you celebrating his birthday or something not too long ago? [NG

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shakes head] And also as well, going back to what Baroness what the Baronesssaid, the parties must listen, because one of the things, I’m sitting here and everytime Jack Straw or somebody says Afro-Caribbean, I’m cringing. [JS: Sorry]African-Caribbean. [light applause]DD: Hold on, ok, no don’t yet. Chris Huhne.CH: Well, let me come back to the question, has immigration, have the failure ofimmigration policy, helped the BNP? I think there have been undoubted failuresof immigration policy. I think there’s been some really shambolic delivery ofimmigration policy over the last few years, for example our border control,which was a process begun by the way by the Conservative government,continued by Labour, our border control no longer is able to count people out.We issue nearly two million visas every year to students and other people,people on short term visas, and we don’t know whether they’ve left. Itsabsolutely unbelievable. And the first thing we need to do is to make sure we getback control over, er, over our borders. And the other thing, I think thegovernment made a frankly unbelievable mistake in its projections of what wasgoing to happen when … we are one of very few European countries who decidedwe were going allow everybody from the new Central and East Europeanmember states in. The government projected it would be 56,000 people wouldcome here, it ended up being 766,000. That is probably – I’m a bit of aconnoisseur of bad government forecasts – but that was probably one of theworst government forecasts on record.DD: And had they, no hang on, wait, wait, had they know that would be the figure,what could they have done to change it? We’re part of the European Union whichyou support, you06: 30CH: No, no, no, that’s absolutely wrong David. What happened was most otherEuropean countries decided to have transitional arrangements whereby theydidn’t allow immigration, free immigration from Central and Eastern Europe[DD: For how long?] for ten years. But the point is that that if a Denmark, Irelandand the UK, er we decided we wanted to go ahead and open our bordersimmediately. Well obviously if we couldn’t go, well on the basis of thegovernment forecasts which were entirely wrong. Now let me come back to thefinal, the final point.DD: Not let’s deal with, Jack Straw says you wanted this to happen.CH: We we looked, we looked…DD: But you voted for…CH: No I didn’t, I wasn’t in the parliament. We looked at this forecast on theassumption that the government’s forecast was correct. It was unbelievablyinaccurate.

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SW: But but the Conservatives Par…The Conservative Party was the only one toDD: Hold on, let’s not go any further down the European road, ok noCH: There’s a rather important point here about the success of the BNP, becausethe evidence on the success of the BNP is very simple. Its not primarily aboutimmigration, its about people feeling disconnected from the political system andwe’re the only party in Burnley who’s been able to halve BNP support over thelast four years, we’re actually now running the council, and we’ve done that bylistening to people, and the problem’s frankly there aren’t enough LiberalDemocrats out there doing what we did in Burnley to turn back the BNP, becausewe’re the only party who’ve [????] them.DD: Ok, ok ok ok. [applause] Nick Griffin.NG: I think its ra… I think its rather surprising to have a Lib Dem masqueradingas an anti-immigration party, but Jack Straw was actually right on this when hesaid that no its not the Labour Party’s fault, it’s the fault of the entire politicalelite, which has imposed an enormous multicultural programme, experiment, onthe British people, without so much as a bye or leave, all we’ve got out of it is taxbills, its transformed our country to the extent that the government’s ownfigures, interpreted by the demographers…BG: Nick who are the British people? Who are you talking about?NG: Can I finish and then come back to that?BG: Yeah yeah I’d like to know.NG: Ok. The government’s own figures, according to demographers at OxfordUniversity, show that the indigenous British, the people who’ve been here…JS: The whites, the whites?NG: Skin colour’s irrelevant, Jack.[Booing]JS: What do you mean by indigenous? You mean white!NG: This gets to the very point.BG: Wait may I ask you a question because you…CH: Why are you against mixed marriage if skin colour’s irrelevant? Why are youagainst mixed marriage?DD: Wait wait. If you all attack on different fronts we’ll get nowhere.

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NG: Yes.DD: Just finish what you were saying please.NG: We’ve reached the absolute limit on numbers. No one here – Jack Strawwouldn’t dare go to New Zealand and go to a Mauri, “what do you meanindigenous?” He wouldn’t dare go to America, go to an American red Indian, aSioux or whatever, “what do you mean indigenous? We’re all the same.” Theindigenous people of these islands are the English, the Scots, the Irish and theWelsh.JS: The whites.NG: The colour is irrelevant. People who have been here overwhelmingly for thelast 17,000 years. We are the aborigines here. That’s … I’m sorry if you laugh, ifyou want to look at the scientific evidence, online or whatever, read read thebooks by various scientists, the simple fact is the majority of British people aredescended from people who’ve lived here since time immemorial. [audienceshouting!] It is extraordinarily racist, its extremely racist when you seek to denythe English. You people [jabs finger at Straw] wouldn’t even let us have our nameon the census form. That is racism, and that’s why people are voting BritishNational Party, because we feel shut out in our own country. There have .. guidedtours of the Lake District have been cancelled because only English people, whitepeople, were going on them. Erm[panel all shout over him, shambles]NG: ????? groups turned down 106 recruits because they were white.DD: Listen, let’s get back to the question…CH: This is another made up fact…DD: the question, the question, all right made up facts, the question was aboutimmigration policy. Can the success of the BNP be explained by the misguidedimmigration policy which the, the immigration policy which you call the greatestact of genocide against the British people in history, according to your website.NG: [nods, looking down]DD: “The immigration invasion. An act of deliberate, calculated genocide againstour ancient race and nation.” So successive governments are committinggenocide against their own people – is that your theory?NG: I’m afraid that’s the case. That’s certainly how it looks. From the ordinarygrassroots position, when all the political elites celebrate all the multiculturaldiversity and an ever open door…

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SW: Do you know the definition of genocide?NG: Yes I do, and its about, its about destroying … the United Nations definitionsays its about destroying a nation by …SW: How appalling that you use the word in that way.NG: not allowing children to learn about their own culture.SW: How appalling Mr Griffin that you use the word in that way.[applause]DD: Right, Bonnie Greer, Bonnie Greer, Bonnie GreerBG: Right, the term indigenous. First of all, there was an ice age here. There wereno people here in the ice age, because they couldn’t live in the ice.DD: Let’s not go too far, Bonnie let’s not go too far back.BG: Hang on, no, no! This is the point…DD: We’ll be here all night if we start at the ice age.BG: No, David, no. Nick Griffin calls his party for indigenous ice age – am I wrong?NG: The people, largely descended, the people who came when the ice hadmelted.BG: Ok, when the ice melted, 17,000 years ago, people came up from the southdidn’t they? They couldn’t have come from the north. Where would they havecome from? The south. And you know this because you have a 2:2 in history. Allof us [applause], all of us, all of us are descended from Africa. You wouldn’tdisagree with me on that would you? Ok, now the only, the only people who werehere on this continent, and I’ve got a lot of books in fact I brought a lot of stuff foryou to read Nick because you need it, the, the, the only people who were here –and I call them people – were the andodols, those were the only people whowere on the European continent. Now if you don’t believe that you can come tothe British Museum, we’ve got lots and lots of information for you. Because Ireally wish you would come, because the history you’ve got on your website is ajoke.[2.28 follow on Twitter @bbcquestiontime]Its wacky, and anybody, anybody who is seriously upset by it…?DD: You in the white shirt there. Oh no, you’ve spoken already. No no, youhaven’t. Speak up then.

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[2.42 text your comments to 83981 normal rates apply digital TV press redbutton: ceefax page 155]A12: This is a question to er Dick Griffin, oh er beg your pardon Nick.[laughter]DD: No, no, he’s made a mistakeA12: You’re committed to reversing, erm, you’re committed to stemming theflow and reversing the flow of immigration into the UK so we revert back to awhite Britain. Where do you want me to go? This is my country, I love thiscountry [03:01 bbc.co.uk/questiontime], I’m part of this country. You knowwhat? I was born here, I was educated here. You would be surprising how manypeople here, we could have a whip round to get you a ticket and your supportersto go…[wild applause]… to go to the south pole. It’s a colourless landscape, you’ll find.DD: You want to answer him?NG: Yes, thank you. Erm yeah. Our immigration policy is I think supported by 84percent of the British people at present who, according to a very recent opinionpoll, said they were worried about immigration.BG: Which opinion poll Nick? Well there you go.NG: It was in the papers only the other day. And this included two thirds ofsettled ethnic minorities in this country, also saying immigration’s out of control,its time to shut the door. I look … our policy is that …DD: What he said was, where do you want me to go, was his question.NG: I’m very happy for you to stay here. What we’ve said is its time to shut thedoor because this country is overcrowded, that criminals, bogus asylum seekersand people who aren’t loyal to this country should be deported, and everyoneelse can stay.SW: There’s no such thing as, there’s no such thing as a bogus asylum seeker. Youare an asylum seeker, you are an asylum seeker, that’s a legal term.A13: I’m amazed that you still pander to the left. Immigration is a major issue inthis country. Its because of your policies, in this regard, that the BNP have risen.Do you knot accept that the government has an issue about this, and has to tackleit square on?04.38

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JS: Well, what I’ll accept, sir is this. Of course this is an issue which is exploited onthe far right, and given the constituency that I’ve represented now for 30 years,of course I’d understand that, but what … I’m not going to go around and say, andI hope you’re not either, is to say that, suddenly – I come from immigrant stock,you may or may not, I’m third generation Jewish émigrés on my mother’s side –because you’ve got to have a fair, I’m very happy to have a fair and open debateabout this, but as Sayeeda said, and she was agreeing with me, we don’t want topull up the drawbridge. We are … I accept entirely people’s concerns about thepace of change, and I’ve seen that in my own constituency. What we have to tryto do with that is ensure there are the resources put in places. I also understandthe degree to which various myths about immigrants are perpetrated by peopleon the far right. If you go round and talk to people …SW: But Jack the system…A13: But you won’t tackle it. They fill the gap, they fill the gap you’ve left behindbecause of a simple policy.DD: Let me, Jack Straw, Jack Straw, let me just put to you a quote from your ownLabour Frank Field, a much respected speaker on this issue, who in today’s DailyTelegraph said, “a fightback against today’s BNP will only begin when our partyleaders pledge that our population will not breach the 65 million barrier”, 70million being predicted. Do you support that idea?JS: No I do not.DD: And why not?JS: I’ll tell you why, because Frank is a good friend of mine, and an old friend ofmine, but I don’t happen to believe that putting a cap on population is possible.Why isn’t it possible? Because then you also have to put a cap on the number ofchildren people have. You also have to decide you’re going to have to be veryvery authoritarian: you can come into this country. What we have done sir, andwe have responded to the concerns very significantly, for example by tighteningborder controls, by producing kind of checks on people going out as well peoplecoming in.DD: But no caps is what you’re saying?JS: And and and what we’ve also done is introduce the Australian points-basedsystem for work er work visas.SW: But Jack none of these systems are working. That gentleman is right.JS: I’m very sorry, they, these systems are working, and what [SW: they’re not]for example they’re doing with respect to work permits and I’ve seen that withmy own constituents, is that getting a work permit is now much more difficult,

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and we can adjust, as Chris was saying, the numbers each year by changing thepoints , so the system is working.SW: Jack until we start having an honest debate…JS: We’re having an honest debate.SW: You have to start having an honest debate, you’re in denial, and thatgentleman is right.DD: Alright, Nick Nick Nick Griffin, he says it is working. Do you think itsworking?NG: Er, I don’t think its working. We see with your own eyes what’s going on intowns and cities all over Britain, the place is changing at a huge rate, and theordinary public simply do not want it. Its time the elite learnt that.DD: Ok, the man with the blue tie, in the pale blue tie there, in the blue suit, yessir.A14: Yes why do we let in thousands of immigrants into this country when wehave rising unemployment?DD: Why what?A14: Because, why do we let in [huge applause] … We have rising unemploymentin this country?A15: I work with migrants, refugees, er, Nick Griffin should probably visit myworkplace. I have a student who was a qualified doctor in her country, and sheworked proudly as a cleaner in this country. I have other students attempting tolearn English so that they can contribute positively in this country, and aretaking on jobs that some English people, according to Mr Griffin’s definition ofEnglish, are unwilling to take, some foreigners unwilling to take.DD: Ok, I’m going to move on now because er believe it or not we’ve only gotunder ten minutes left and I didn’t want this whole programme to be about theBNP. Shalina Nuelavera please.SN: Should the Daily Mail have published the Jan Moir article on Stephen Gately?DD: Should the Daily Mail have published the Jan Moir article on Stephen Gately?The Boyzone band member who died suddenly, and the Daily Mail Jan Moirpublished an article, a great number of people, I think over 22,000, to complainabout it. Bonnie Greer.BG: One of the qualities of democracy and the most important, maybe, is that wehave freedom of speech and freedom of expression. If we don’t have it, we’redoomed. I didn’t like the article. I thought it was nasty, I thought it was cruel, I

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thought it was inaccurate. I don’t know where this woman was coming fromwhen she wrote it and I despised it. But she had the right to write it, and thenewspaper had the right to print it. That’s called democracy, it ain’t pretty, butit’s the least evil we human beings can make.DD: Chris Huhne? [applause]CH. Well like like, like Bonnie I entirely defend the right of Jan Moir to write whatshe wrote and the right of the Daily Mail to print it. But I don’t, didn’t approve ofit, I thought that she was quite wrong, and I thought that she was quite wrongbecause to say that someone has “brought on themselves” – which is effectivelywhat she was saying – er a sleazy lifestyle, and er as a result of that has died. Ithought that was frankly in extremely bad taste, she didn’t know what was act…what was happening at the time, it was intruding and speculating on all sorts ofthings er which she cannot possibly have had any knowledge of, and what shewas essentially doing what giving vent to the most crude type of homophobicprejudice, and I don’t think there’s any place in a civilized society for that. It’s avery similar prejudice to the sort of prejudice that we’ve previously been talkingabout er against er ethnic minorities. Because what we have to remember is thatall of us sometimes find ourselves in a minority. All of us. It may be people on theright defending Countryside Alliance marches against erm er, against fox eragainst banning fox hunting for example, it may be people on the left. All of usfind ourselves in a minority, and we need to respect each other’s rights, and thatwas an article which did not respect the gay community, and really undermined Ithink their civil rights and was a very very retrograde step.[applause]DD: One of the things she wrote was that Gately’s death was a blow to the “happyever after myth of civil partnerships”. Sayeeda Warsi, you’ve written about thepromotion of homosexuality undermining family life, so presumably thereforeyou’re against the teaching of homosexuality in school, you were against thescrapping of Section 28. What’s your view about this issue, and are you in favourof civil partnerships?SW: No, no, I mean if I can go back to the question er which was asked…DD: Should it have been published, yes, we’ve got a bit beyond that now…SW: Well I actually think that newspapers do have the right to publish articles,but I also regularly say that journalists and newspapers sometimes have aresponsibility not to, and I think that journalists need to taker er thatresponsibility quite seriously. And one of the ways that I was brought up erm asas as a young person was that er when somebody dies we say that er that theyare hopefully resting in peace, and therefore once they have gone from thisworld, to take their name in vain and so say the things that were said in thatarticle is not acceptable.

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DD: Do you support that part of it that talks about the blow to happy ever aftermyth of civil partnership?SW: Er no I don’t, I think the whole article was very distasteful…DD: You’re in favour of civil partnerships?SW: I I think people who want to be in a relationship together, in the form of acivil partnership, absolutely have the right to do that.DD: Ok, Nick Griffin?NG: Erm, I’m against the teaching of homosexuality to primary school children.I’m against the teaching of any sex to primary school children, I think that’swrong. But, I believe the freedom of the press, as Bonnie said, is the absolutefoundation stone of our democracy, so the Mail can publish what they want, but Ialso believe that in the case of someone like Stephen Gately who died, it is betterto abide by the maxim, “the dead said nothing unless good”, and I think it waswrong.DD: Ok, was was what she said about the – “under the carapace of glitteringhedonistic celebrity the ooze of a very different and more dangerous lifestyle hasseeped out for all to see” – isn’t that rather in line with your view, that peoplefind homosexuals, creatures, repulsive, you said, about homosexuals?NG: I’ve said, a lot of people find the sight of two grown men kissing in publicreally creepy. I understand that homosexuals don’t understand that, but that’show a lot of us feel. A lot of Christians feel that way, Muslims, all sorts of people,[boos from crowd] I don’t know why, that’s just the way it is. And we, we[rubbish!], I took a party [rubbish! You’re a disgrace!] I took a party that tenyears ago which said homosexuality should be outlawed, people should bedriven underground and persecuted. The British National Party policy now iswhat people do in the privacy of their own homes is absolutely up them, and thestate has no right to interfere. But nor do militant homosexuals, not all of them,do militant homosexuals have the right to preach homosexuality toschoolchildren. That is perverse [shouting from audience].DD: Ok, you sir, yes?A15: Do you reckon the head of the Christian sect here in Britain agrees withyour views? [American accent]NG: There is no particular head of a Christian sect.DD: Jack Straw.JS: While the Daily Mail and other papers are free to publish within the law, andthey were entitled to publish this, I think it was odious, it fans homophobia, andmy belief is we’re only going to have a decent society if we respect people’s

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differences. That’s the truth of it, and to suggest er, poor Stephen Gately’s deathsuggested civil partnerships should be abandoned, are now, as it were, to beabandoned, is as ludicrous as suggesting that because some marriages end indifficult divorce, there’s something fundamentally wrong with the er institutionof marriage. Of course that is utter nonsense, and I celebrate the fact that civilpartnerships have been introduced, and that people who are gay and lesbian areable to honour their relationship in public through a ceremony. Why not? I thinkthat’s really good. [applause]5.25DD: Ok, I’ll take one point from the person, the person at the very back there,alright, yes. Quick point if you would.A16: Hello, as a person in a civil partnership, and a homosexual, I can tell you MrGriffin that the feeling is mutual.[laughter, applause]A16: And in respect of that, and the fact the Daily Mail published it, I take a greatdeal of comfort that is was so widely reviled, and good on the Daily Mail forpublishing it because it has shown that the British public aren’t in favour. MrGriffin you’re in a very small minority.DD: Ok, [applause] we’re er, we are coming to the end of the programme, we’veonly got a few minutes left. I want to go back to this programme itself, andwhether this programme was the right programme for Question Time to put on,with a question from Pat Conarghty please, Pat Conarghty.PC: Might this programme be viewed as an early Christmas present for the BNP?DD: Can this programme be viewed as an early Christmas present for the BNP?The words of Peter Hain, the Welsh Secretary, who attacked us consistently forhaving Mr Griffin on the panel. Has it been a Christmas present for the BNP? Isuspect its for the audience to decide, but Chris Huhne you start on this.CH: Well clearly, er, it is. It is a Christmas present for the BNP. But, I think thatwhen a party gets to a certain stage in our democracy and elects people atnational level as the BNP has done –and we have precedents for this from the UKIndependence Party and the Green Party – I don’t want the BBC and ourbroadcasters to decide who should be allowed to say something and whoshouldn’t. I think it has to be respected.DD: Ok. Bonnie Greer? Bonnie Greer?BG: My dear great mother in law, er, who I was the first black person she evermet, my late father was the second black person she ever met. This woman was atrue Brit, total common sense. Please don’t tell me looking at a television show

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would have her take this man’s party to her bosom. The British people have gottoo much common sense.[applause]DD: Ok. Sayeeda Warsi.SW: I don’t think I can put it any better than er Bonnie, but I don’t this has been aChristmas present. I think if you look at the reaction of this audience, and youlook out there in the British public they’re absolutely appalled by the values ofMr Griffin. But in a way, I’m glad that this programme has taken place, becauseactually Mr Griffin hasn’t been able to put forward his normal PR version of whohe is, but he’s been exposed for what he really is.[applause]DD: Ok, over there.A17: Isn’t it alarming though that it took the BBC to invite Mr Griffin onto TV forthe likes of Peter Hain to come forward and say his party is not lawful, when hewas running for parliament back in June?DD: Nick, Nick Griffin, do you regard this as an early Christmas present? I sawyou saying “thank you auntie” for being invited on Question Time.NG: Er, actually that’s another word put into my mouth by journalists. I didn’t say“thank you auntie”, I don’t regard the BBC as auntie, I regard the BBC as overall,as part of a thoroughly unpleasant ultra-establishment, er, which as we’ve seenhere tonight doesn’t even want the English to be recognized as an existingpeople. I think its wrong. But, but…BG: You never answered the question.NG: But the BBC, all they’ve in the end done, as Chris said really, all the BBC hasdone is followed the rules that they set some years ago. We’ve crossed thethreshold. It would have been wrong to keep us off any longer. So the BBC hasjust done what they had to do, and er I’m sure its been a large audience, possiblyof interest to some people, so what’s the problem?DD: Jack Straw?JS: I think this has actually been a catastrophic week for the BNP. [applause] And,because, for the first [rubbish!] for the first time the views of the BNP have beenproperly scrutinized. People are going onto YouTube, going onto the web, findingout the true views of the BNP, and its, what we see here is a fantasizingconspiracy theorist, a man who defines his politics by race rather than by moralvalues, and the British people will have nothing to do with that. Now,particularly, they know about it.

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[light applause]DD: ok, so, I’m sorry to those of you trying to get in, I’ve got to stop because ourtime is up, it’s the end of our hour of Question Time this week. So, next week,Llandidno, on the panel Jacqui Smith, the former Home Secretary, and thebroadcaster and [tape cuts]