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“Decisions”(Transcript)

Description: on 27 August 2011, Bart Ehrman and Mike Licona appeared on“UnbelievablewithJustinBrierley”wheretheydiscussedtheirfaithstrugglesandhowtheyarrivedatoppositeconclusions.

Justin:Well,welcomealongtotoday’sprogramandwhatan interestingsubjectandpairofspeakersIhaveforyoutoday.MygreatpleasuretowelcomebackintothestudioBartEhrmanwhohasbecomekindofabitofa regular thisyear.HewasonjustbeforetalkingabouttheresurrectionofJesusandhewastalkingwithmyother guest on today’s program,Mike Licona, and letme just officially giveyou their titles. Bart is the James A. Gray distinguished professor of ReligiousStudiesattheUniversityofNorthCarolina-ChapelHillandauthorofmanybooks,perhapsmostfamously,hisbookMisquotingJesus,butwe’vehadhimonrecentlytalking about hismost recentworkForged. Bart has inmanyways been a realfigurewho’sputthecatamongthepigeonsasitwereintheevangelicalChristianworld by kind ofmaking public someof the scholarly disputes over the textualvariationsinScriptureandwhetherwecantrustthereliabilityofthetransmissionoftheNewTestamentdocumentsovertimeandthat’sagoodthing.We’vedonesomegreatprogramswithBartinconversationwithotherscholarsonthatonthisprogram. Today though, we’re going to take a kind of slight sideways step onthosesortoftechnicalissues,thoughtheywillenterinI’msure,andlookatyourstory Bart andwhich is one of starting as an evangelical Christian thenmovingawayandfinallyabandoningfaithaltogetherandIthoughtagoodpersontobringback in to have that conversation with you would be Mike Licona who isapologetics coordinator at the North American Mission Board. He’s researchprofessor of New Testament at Southern Evangelical Seminary [Licona nowteaches at Houston Baptist University] joining us on the line from the Stateswhereheisresident.So,Mike,thankyouforjoiningustodayaswell.Bart.Let’scometoyoufirstofall.Wheneveryou’vebeenonbeforeyou’vekindofgivenabrief summary of your journey, but today’s the day when you can kind of

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elaboratea littlebitandwe’ll introduceMikeasheresponds induecourse,butwhat background did you kind of grow up in yourself? What was the sort ofbeddingyouhadwhenitcametoyoufindingChristianityinthefirstplace?

Bart: I was raised in the Midwest in Kansas and I was raised in the EpiscopalchurchsotheAmericanversionoftheAnglicanchurchandwasquiteactiveintheEpiscopalchurch,butwhenIwasinhighschool,whenIwasmaybefifteenyearsold,IhadabornagainexperiencewheretherewasahighschoolgroupthatwaskindofanevangelisticgroupcalledYouthforChristandtheleaderofthisgroupconvincedmethatIneededtoacceptChristasmyLordandSavior,soIdidandIconsideredthat tobeabornagainexperienceand fromthat timeon Igotveryvery serious about my religion. This person who had led me to Christ was agraduateoftheMoodyBibleInstituteandheconvincedmethatifIwantedtobeaseriousChristianItoowouldgototheMoodyBibleInstitute.Andsoratherthangoing to a secular university, I went to Moody, which maybe most of yourlisteners know is a very conservative evangelical school. I don’t know if it’sappropriate to call it fundamentalist, but I suppose it probably is. It’s about ascloseasyoucangettofundamentalismifnotactuallybeingfundamentalist.AndIwent there for threeyears as a conservativeevangelicalbelievingnotonly thatChristwastheSonofGodwhodiedformysins,butalsothattheBiblewastheinerrantrevelationfromGodwithnomistakesofanykindwhatsoever.

Justin:Andasyousortofspelledoutinworks,includingMisquotingJesus,thatissomethingyouheldontoforquiteawhile.ButwhatkindofstartedtheshiftawayfromthatparticularviewofScripture?

Bart: Well, after Moody, Moody was a three-year diploma that I got and IgraduatedandIdecidedtogotoWheatonCollege,whichwasaChristianliberalartsschool.It’sBillyGraham’salmamater.It’sknowninAmericaasbeingoneofthetop,maybethetop,evangelicalliberalartsschoolinthecountryandIwantedtogeteducation.AndsoIwentthereandformyforeignlanguagerequirement,ItookGreekbecauseIwantedtoreadtheNewTestamentintheoriginallanguage.AndsoIstudiedGreekatWheatonanditturnedoutIwasprettygoodatitandwanted to go on and do graduate education. Well, the expert in the Greek

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manuscriptsoftheNewTestamentintheworldwasamannamedBruceMetzgerwho taughtatPrincetonTheological Seminary somyGreekprofessorat collegetoldmeifIwantedtoreallystudyGreekmanuscriptsIneededtogotoPrincetonTheological Seminary. So, I did. I knew nothing about Princeton TheologicalSeminary.Ididn’tknowitwasinNewJersey.Ididn’tknowitwasPresbyterian.Iknewnothing.IjustknewthatBruceMetzgertaughtthereandIwantedtostudyGreekmanuscripts.AndsoIwentthere.PrincetonSeminaryhadaverydifferentviewof things fromMoodyBible Institute.Theprofessorsdidnotbelieve intheinerrancy of the Bible. They were considered at the time to be very liberalChristians. In fact, I probablydoubtedat the time if they shouldevenbe calledChristiansbecausetheydidn’taccepttheauthorityofScripturethewayIdid.

Justin: And did this immediately throw big questions in your mind, you know,aboutyourfaith?Wasthiskindofachallengetothethinkingyou’dhad?

Bart:Well, itwasachallenge,but itdidn’t throwupanyproblemsformyfaith.WhatitdidisitwasachallengeinthesensethatIknewIwasrightandtheywerewrongandIwasgoingtoproveittothemandsothatwentonforaboutayearortwoofmytryingtoprovethat Iwasrightandtheywerewrongandthemore Istudied the Bible in the original Greek, the more I started finding that theproblems that my professors had with the Bible being inerrant made a lot ofsense. I started realizing that in fact these are not just wide-eyed liberals whohavecrazybiasedviewsagainst theBible.Theyactuallyhavesomeevidenceontheirsidethatneedstobetakenseriously.

Justin:IseemtorememberinMisquotingJesusyoukindofrelateastorythatwassort of a turning point where you had submitted an essay and you wereessentiallytryingtojustifyanapparentcontradictionintheGospelofMarkIthinkitwas.

Bart:Yes.

Justin:Andyouhadgivenalonglengthyapologeticforwhyitdoesn’trepresentacontradictionandyourprofessorputatthebottom,“Okay,butmaybehejustgotitwrong.”

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Bart:No. That’s exactly right. It’s thepassage inMark2where Jesus’sdisciplesaregoingthroughthegrainfieldsandthey’reeatingthegrainontheSabbathandthePhariseesaccuseJesussaying,“Whyareyourdisciplesdoingthis?”AndJesuswants toshowthemthat it’sokay tosatisfyneedsoverkeepingstrictly the lawand he says to the Pharisees, “Don’t you remember what David did whenAbiathar was the high priest, how he went into the temple and ate the showbreadthatonlythepriestsaresupposedtoeat?”Andsothething isthatwhenyou read the passage in the book of Samuel, it’s not Abiathar who’s the highpriestwhenDaviddidthis. ItwashisfatherAhimelechwhowasthehighpriest.AndsoIwrotethislong35pagepaperthateventhoughhesaysit’sAbiathar,hedidn’t really mean it’s Abiathar. It’s really Ahimelech. So, that’s where myprofessorwrote,helikedthepaper,hegavemeanAonit,buthesaid,“MaybeMark just made a mistake.” And I thought “Heh, maybe Mark just made amistake.”Andthatstartedchangingthings.

Justin:Andthatstartedchangingthings.Imean,we’llcometoMikenowIthink,becausehe’sgotavery interestingstoryhimselfandthenwe’llsortofcontinuewithyoursasitwere.ButMike,thankyouforjoiningmeontheprogramtoday.Greattohaveyouback.You’vebeenbusywithtrainingupsomepastorsrecentlyIthinkorchaplainsinSwitzerland.Howdidthatgo?

Mike: Oh, it went reallywell, and thanks for havingme on this show! Yeah. Itwentwell.WewereoverinSwitzerlandandalotofthemilitarychaplainscamefromGermany and all around in Europe.And sowehad about aweek trainingthemandthenspentsometimewithmyfamily.MywifehassomeancestorsoverinGermanysowespentsometimeoverthere.Justhadagreattime.Wegotbackyesterday.Strugglingalittlebitwiththejetlagbutwe’llbeokay.

Justin:Thankyouforcomingonatveryshortnotice.Icalledonyoutoseeifwecould arrange something looking at the more subjective, if you like, aspect ofBart’sexperience.WhatsparkedmythinkingwithyouthoughMikewasthatlasttimeyoucameonthisprogramoppositeBart,yousaidyourself,“Icanrelatetoalot of Bart’s story. I feel like Iwenton a similar sort of journey.”But obviouslydifferentoutcomeforyousotakeusbacktoyoursortof,howthingsstartedoff

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foryouandthekindofchallengesyoumetwhenitcametoyourinteractionwiththeBible.

Mike:Well,sure.IbecameaChristianattheageoftenanddidn’treallygrowtoomuchspirituallyduringmyteens.Endedupgoing toLibertyUniversity,which istheuniversitythatwasstartedbythelateJerryFalwell.Iwasamusicmajorandplayed saxophone,wasplanningonbeingaprofessionalmusician. Just loved it.ButforthefirsttimeinmylifewhileIwasthere,Istartedtogrowspirituallyinabigway.IwasreadingtheScripturesanhourtotwohoursaday,apartfromanyclasses,anythinglikethat.IprayedanotherhourtotwohoursadayandthiswasjustallstuffthatIwasjustsohungrytoknowGodandtolivetheChristianlife.Itwasn’trequiredoranythinglikethat.It’skindofstrangeforacollegestudenttobespendingthatmuchtimereadingtheBibleandpraying,butthat’swhereIwas.Iwas just loving it. Volunteering to goonmission tripsduring the summerandhaving a lot of fun was my experience at Liberty. A lot of times I’d readcommentaries to get some insights on a text. I’d notice that the scholarsweresaying, “Well, theoriginalGreek”or “TheoriginalHebrew said this.”And IwasmoreinterestedintheNewTestament.So,IdecidedtolearnGreekandsoItookone semester of Greek, my last semester in college, and decided I wanted topursueitfurther.So,IhadtotakeanextrayearofGreekduringthesummerandpass a Greek entrance exam and then it led me into graduate school for aMaster’s degree in New Testamentwith a focus on Greek.My professor therewasaguynamedRonSauer,whowas the lastdoctoral studentof the lateF.F.Bruce.HejusthadapassionforGreek.HewasstudyingtheScripturesprobablyaminimumofeighthoursadayandsometimesmuchmuchlonger.HejustinstilledapassioninhisstudentsforknowingtheNewTestamentandbeingabletoreaditinGreek.So,here Iwasstudyingalongthese linesandmy lastsemesterthere IwashavingalotoffunandreallyenjoyingreadingtheGreekNewTestamentandI gotoutof grad school. Finishedup there in ’85, and thenwhen I gothome, Istartedhavingsomequestionsbecause,yeah,IhadNewTestamentintroductionclasses, I hadall the typical kindofNewTestament coursesonewouldhave totakeat aMaster’sdegree level.However, tobehonestwith you, I reallydidn’tcare about all of these discussions. The Bible is God’s Word. All of these

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discussionsoverauthorship,thingslikethat,inerrancy,apologetics,thesehadnointerestformewhatsoever. I justwantedtoreadGod’sWord.So,Ididn’tpayalotofattentioninthoseclasses.IjustdidwhatIneededtodotocompletethemandgetout. Itwas theGreekthat really interestedme,butnow I’mfacedwiththeseissuesonceI’moutofgradschoolandit’slike,“Whoa!WhatdoIdowithallofthis?”Andthenthat’swhatbroughtmetoacrisisandstuffthatIhadtoworkthrough andwhich I did. Because Iwas brought up andwent to collegewithinthatconservativescenario I startedhavingtroublewhenthesediscussionsweretaking place. And was thinking you know, if the Bible isn’t all true, it can’t beGod’sWord,andthetruthofChristianitywasintrouble.Atleastthat’swhatIfirstthought.ThenImaturedinmythinkingprocess.

Justin:Yeah.Well,tellusaboutthatmaturation.Ithinkalotofpeoplelistening,andalotofpeoplecertainlywhoarekindofyouraveragepewdwellerasitwereinthechurchjustveryoftendon’t.ABibleteacherorpastorcanonly,youknow,hastodecidecarefullywhatthey’regoingtosay intheirtwentyminutesslotorwhatever itmaybe, perweek, and somostpeople just don’t have the time toengage at the kindof level that youhad the luxury of,with these issues aboutwhethertheBibleisinerrant,whetherwe’vereceivedthetextproperlyandthatkindofthing.Nowobviously,thatproducedalittlebitofcrisisoffaithinyourlifeand itproducedasortofcrisis inBart’s life.The first thing thatoccurs tome isthatsometimespeoplethink,“That’stheproblemwithgoingtoBibleCollegetostudy theology.” It goes and wrecks your faith or something like that. I mean,whatkindofaprocessdidittakeforyoutocometotheseproblemsandthentobeabletostillseethroughthem,pastthem,cometosomekindofunderstandingwhereyoustillretainyourfaith.I’mguessingitwouldmeanyouhadadifferentviewoncertainthings.Youdidn’tnecessarilyseethingsinthewayyoudidwhenyouwerefirstatLibertyUniversity.So,justgiveusanideaofhowthathappened.

Mike: Well, I saw that the importance assigned to many of these challengeswithin higher criticism, importance assigned is just simply overblown and thatmanyofthediscrepancies intheGospelscanbeeasilyanswered. It’ssomethingI’vebeenworkingonforthelasttwoyears,youknow,whilealsocompletingthemanuscript for the book on the resurrection I have. But I realized that Biblical

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inspiration,Biblical inerrancy, it’snotthefoundationoftheChristianfaith.Jesusis. And the same Biblical criticism that calls into question some of the thingsrecordedintheNewTestamentalsoproducedhistoricalmethodsfor identifyingthings about Jesus that actually confirm many of the reports in the Gospels,includingHisresurrection.AndifJesusrose,Christianityistrue,evenifitweretoturnoutthateverylastdetailreportedintheBibleisn’t.

Justin:That’sinteresting.So,foryou,comingtoafirmbeliefintheresurrectionofJesus,thatkindofhasfirmhistoricalgroundsandweobviouslytalkedaboutthaton the last show you were with us on. That was quite fundamental in saying,“Well,evenifthereare issuesoutstandingwith,youknow,areasoftheBible, ifthat’strue,thenthere’ssomethingIcanstakemylifeon.”

Mike: That’s correct. It’s kind of like the Titanic. You’ve got survivors whocontradictedeachotheronwhether theTitanicbroke inhalfprior to sinkingorwhetheritwentdownintact.Butnoonecalls intoquestion,basedonthat,thattheTitanicsankbecausethere’sgoodenoughevidencetoshowthatitdid.Itwastheperipheraldetailsofwhether it broke inhalf thatwere inquestion. It’s thesame thingwhenwecome to theNewTestament.Thesediscrepancies involve,they’reall in theperipherals.And they involvenothing thatwouldoverturn thetruthofChristianity.

Justin: You’re listening to Unbelievable this Saturday afternoon and on line,Premier.org.uk/Unbelievable. I’m Justin Brierley, your host for today’s programandlengthierintroductionsthannormaltobothourguestsastheysortofsharedwhere they came from in their journey. Bart Ehrman,my guest todaywho leftChristianityeventually,butsortof lookingatthatearlystage issortofwhenhisfaith in the Biblewas shaken andMike Liconawhowewere just hearing fromthere,apologeticscoordinatorat theNorthAmericanMissionBoardonhisownjourney andwhyhe came to feel thathe could remain anevangelical ChristianandhisfaithintheBiblewasn’tshaken.ThequestionIsupposetodayis“CanyoubeagoodBiblescholarandaBiblebelievingChristian?”Andwe’rekindofdoingthatinthecontextofBart’sjourneyandMike’sjourneyontoday’sprogramandifyou’dliketogetintouch,reflectonanythingyouheartoday,ifyouwanttohave

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your say and respond to anything, the email address isUnbelievable@premier.org.uk. You can also get in touch by the Twitter andFacebook account and the addresses for those, the links to those are all at theUnbelievablewebpage. Premier.org.uk/Unbelievablewhere you can finda vastarchiveofpastprogramming.Youcan findmorecontributions fromMike, fromBart, and from a whole host of other Christian apologists, atheists, agnostics,people of other faith views,wherewe’ll have these kinds of discussions, so gothere.Premier.org.uk/Unbelievable.

Justin:OkayBart.Thepointwekindofgotuptowithyourselfwas,youtook,asitwere, a decision to, okay, maybe I can see Scripture differently, but you stillretainedaChristianfaith.But it lookedabitdifferent Iguessatthatpoint.Howmuchofastrugglewasthat,todivestyourselfofthekindofviewoftheBiblethatyoudon’tseeverymuchbeingreadinyourearlyChristianlife?

Bart:Well,forme,itwasanenormousstruggle,emotionallyandspiritually.LikeMike,Iwasfullycommittedasacollegestudent,memorizingentirebooksoftheBibleonmyown,spendinghours inprayerandprayergroupsandstudygroupsand I mean, completely committed to it. I did get to a point whereMike justended,whereIgottothepointwhereIthoughtthatwhatreallymattersisJesustheSonofGodandwasHeraisedfromthedead?ButbeforeIgottothatpoint,Iwas fully committed to theBibleasbeing the inerrantWordofGodand itwasimportant tomethat theBiblewas inerrantbecausetheBible isourwitness totheresurrectionofJesusandtoeverythingweknowaboutJesusandiftheBiblehaserrors in it, I thoughtat thetime, thenhowdoweknowwhatwethinkweknow about God, about Christ, about His Spirit, about the end times, aboutanything?AndsoIwascompletelycommittedtostudyingtheBible,butIwasalsocommittedtothetruthandIthoughtthatifsomethingisn’ttrue,Ididn’twanttobelieve it.So, if it’snottruethattheBible is inerrant, then it’sbetter formetobelievethetruththanbelieveininerrancy.

Justin:Inasensethough,wasthereapointatwhich,didtheinerrancyissueandyour deciding “I can’t in good conscience believe that anymore,” did then the

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resurrectionandwhetherJesuswastheSonofGod,didthatalsogetjettisonedatthatpointbecauseonedependedverymuchontheother?

Bart:No.Notatthatpoint.Infact,whathappenedformeisIbegantoseethateven though before this I had been able to reconcile every discrepancy in theBible,anycontradiction,Icouldreconcile,Iknewhowtodothat.Igottoapointwhere I started realizing that in fact these are discrepancies, there arecontradictions,andthatdidnot leavemetostopbeingChristian.But itdid leadme away from a kind of fundamentalist belief in the absolute inerrancy of theBible,becausetherearepassagesintheGospelsthatyousimplycannotreconcilesotheycan’tbewithouterror.Thereareerrorsthere.But Icontinuedforyearsand years and years actually still being aChristianwhobelieved that Jesuswasraisedfromthedead.

Justin:Atwhatpointthendidthatbeliefstartto,asitwere,takeflack?

Bart:WhenIwasatMoody,IwaswarnedthatIshouldn’tgotoWheatonCollegebecausetheywere liberal there incomparisontoMoody.Andonceyougiveupon these hard-core inerrancy beliefs, it’s a domino effect and everything elsewouldfallafterwards.Myentirefaithwoulddisappear.WhenIwasatWheatonIwas warned not to go to Princeton Theological Seminary, because, you know,they’reabunchofPresbyteriansandwhatdotheyknow?A littlebitofdominoeffect,and Ineverbelieved thisdomino theory.But in fact it iswhathappenedwithme.It’sthedominotheory.So,firstoneintherewasinerrancy.AndthenmyunderstandingoftheBiblechanged.Istillthoughtofitasanauthoritativebook.But I thoughtof it as theWordofGod inadifferent sense,not as the inerrantrevelationofGod.EventuallyIcametothinkoftheBibleasaveryhumanbook.But I stillbelieved thatChristwasGod’s revealingofHimselfhereonEarthandeventually my belief in Jesus changed and eventually then my belief in Godchanged.So,itreallywasadominoeffect.

Justin:Mike,justbeforewegotoabreak,thisdominoeffectthatBartdescribes.Foryou,thedominodidn’tfallwhenitcametotheresurrectionofJesus.Andthatwaspretty fundamental foryou inthatprocess.But Iguessyoucansympathize

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withthejourneyBarttook.Whydoyoufeelthoughthathekindofgotoffatthewrongstopcomparedtoyouwhenitcomestothis?

Mike:Well,Idon’tknow.I’dhavetothinkaboutthatone.AllIcansayformyselfis I’veheard that thereareanumberofChristiansas I’mworking through, andhave worked through, and continue to work through some of this stuff whowould say, “Yeah, thedominoeffect, it’s a slippery slope.Once you startdoingthingsastryingtoaccountforsomeofthesediscrepanciesthroughthefreedomsthat are allowed within Greco-Roman biography, that’s a slippery slope andbefore you know it, you’ll be giving up inerrancy and then after that you’ll begiving up Christianity.”Well, I suppose that can happen. It has happened withBart.Butitdoesn’thavetohappenthatway.IthinkI’minthesameplacewhereBartisandthatisthattruthmatterstous.Itmatterstobothofus.Wearemorecommittedtotruththanwearetoanyparticularideologicalposition.AndasIdomystudiesinhistoricalJesusresearchandsoforth,ifIweretodiscoverthatJesusdidnotrisefromthedead,Imeanthat’sthefoundationtoknowthatChristianityistrue,butifIweretodiscoverHedidn’trisefromthedead,IwouldhavetogiveupChristianity.And Iwoulddo it. Itdoesn’thave tobe thisdominoeffect.Youjust look and ask, “What is truth?” Christianity is not founded upon Biblicalinerrancy or the inspiration of theBible. Christianity can still be true, it is true,basedon the resurrectionof Jesus. If Jesusdidn’t rise, thenChristianity is false.Butthere’snoScripturethatsays.“IfyouconfesswithyourmouthJesusisLord,believeinyourheartthatGodraisedHimfromthedead,andthattheBibleistheinspiredandinerrantWordofGod,you’llbesaved.”It’snotoneofthosecardinaldoctrines.

Justin: Let’s come back to that in a moment because I think that’s a reallyinterestingpointtobemakingatthispointandperhapsyoucouldexpoundonitinamoment.You’relisteningtoUnbelievablewithme,JustinBrierley,mygueststodayareBartEhrman, formerChristianasweheard inhis storyearlier,nowaprofessorof religious studiesat theUniversityofNorthCarolina-ChapelHill.HelosthisfaiththoughafterengagingwiththeBibleanditraisingdoubtsabouttheinspirationofScripture.That’snotthewholestory,butit’scertainlywherethingsstarted.He’sengagingtodaywithMikeLiconawhowentthroughasimilarperiod

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ofsearchingbutcametoaverydifferentconclusionandfeelsthattheBibleisstilltrustworthy, that Jesus is who He said He was, the Son of God, and theresurrectionreallydidtakeplace,sowe’regoingtocontinueinteractingwithbothmyguestsontoday’sprogramaswecontinuethiseditionofUnbelievable.

Justin:WelcomebacktoUnbelievableaswecontinuetolookatthefaithjourneytoday of Bart Ehrman in contradistinction to the faith journey of Mike Licona,particularly in the area of Bible studies. And we’re asking today, can you be agoodBiblescholarandaBiblebelievingChristian?IhavetwopeoplewithmewhoarebothBiblescholars,BartEhrmanandMikeLicona,butthey’vetakenradicallydifferentsortofjourneyswhenitcomestotheeffectstheirstudyoftheBiblehashad on their personal faith and for Bart it means abandoning his view ofevangelicalChristianity;infact,abandoninghisfaithaltogetherlaterondowntheline. But for Mike Licona, although there were issues you wrestled with inScriptureandcontinuestodoso,itwouldbefairtosayMike,itwasnotsogreatasto,asitwere,meanjettisoningthebeliefinChristandthetrustthatyouholdinScripture. Imean,youendedthat lastsectionbysaying,Mike, thatwhat it isthat makes us a Christian is belief in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and Hisresurrection.Youdon’taddtothatthebeliefthattheBibleinallitsmanuscriptsistheinerrantWordofGodandthatsortofthing.IsthereadangerinsomesenseofmakingBiblicalinerrancy,givingitadoctrinalplace,itshouldn’tactuallyhaveinwhatitistobeaChristian?

Mike:Ithinkitis.Iknowthere’dbealotofevangelicalswhowoulddisagreewithme.Butlisten,Iwanttobeclear.IstillembraceBiblicalinerrancy.WhenIcometothis,IstillhavesometextsthatIlookatandIsay,“Wow.Idon’tknowwhattodowiththat.”Alotofthem,mostofthem,thediscrepancies,andI’vecollectedtheseoverthelastcoupleofyearsasI’vebeenreadingtheScripturesjustinmyownpersonalreadings,aboutfortypagesofdifferencesthatI’vefoundandhavebegantocataloguethemintodifferentsectionsonwhatarewelookingathere.Arewe looking at time compression? Arewe looking at a lack of chronologicalexactitudeandallof thiskindofstuff.And is thisstuffallowed inGreco-Romanbiography, these kinds of liberties?And I think that the largemajority of thesediscrepanciesareeasilyresolved.AndasIsaidamomentago,somearenoteasily

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resolved.Somearestubborn.They’reverydifficult.Idon’tknowwhattodowiththemtobehonestwithyouandatthispoint,theBiblicalscholarorlet’ssaytheconservativeonelikemyselfcomestoaforkintheroadandsay,“Alright,wecangive up Biblical inerrancy” or we can say “Maybe there’s a resolution for this.We’ll look at in the future.” For me, Biblical inerrancy is not a fundamentaldoctrine.It’snotoneoftheessentialdoctrinesthatyouhavetobelieveinordertobeaChristian.So,ifitturnedoutthatBiblicalinerrancyisamistakendoctrine,forme,nobigdeal.Jesusstillrosefromthedead.Christianityistrue.

Justin:WhatI’veheardBartsay,IoncelistenedtoWilliamLaneCraigcommentedon your sort of faith journey and he puzzled overwhy you felt it necessary toabandon faith in theBible togetherbecauseyouhad sortof comeacross theseinerrancyproblems.Itdoesn’tnecessarilyfollowthatyouthenchuckthebabyoutwiththebathwateras itwere.Andareyou inasenserejectingtheChristianity,the fundamentalist variety you’vebeen talkingabout?Are youonlyhappywiththeBibleifit’stheoneyougrewupbelievingin?

Bart:AlotofevangelicalsthatI’veheardtalkaboutmeandmyfaithjourneyhavesaidthisandtheyabsolutelyknownothingaboutmyfaithjourneywhentheysaythat.I’vereadinabookthatIstoppedbeingaChristianwhenIfoundouttherewerediscrepanciesinthemanuscriptsoftheNewTestament.It’sabsolutelyfalse.Nothing could be further from the truth. People say that I stopped being aChristianwhenIrealizedthattheBiblewasnotinerrant.Absolutelyfalse.IwasaChristianforyearsandyearsandyearsaftergivingupthedoctrineofinerrancy.Iwas the pastor of a Baptist church not believing in the doctrine of inerrancy. Icontinued to understand that theBiblewas still the authoritativeWordofGodeventhoughitwasn’tinerrant.Itisn’tthatonegoesfrombeinganinerrantisttobeinganatheist.IagreewithMikeonthispointthatthebeliefintheBibleisnotanarticleof faith that is inanywayessential toChristianity.Mystudentsdon’tbelievethis.IteachintheSouthinAmerica.AndintheAmericanSouth,beingaChristianmeans believing in the Bible for some reason. And I tellmy students,“Youdon’thavetobelieveintheBibletobeaChristian,thatinfactChristianityisaboutChrist.It’snotabouttheBible.”Theydon’tbelieveme.Butinfactit’strue.Ifyoulookatthecreedsofthechurchhistorically,theApostles’Creed,theNicene

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Creed, century after century after century, people believed in Christ withoutbelievingintheinerrancyoftheBible.Itwasn’teveninthecreeds.Buttoday,forhistoricalreasons,theBiblenowhasbecomethecenteroffaith.AndIthinkthatthat’s completely wrong, which is why, when people say that I’m attackingChristianitywhen Iwrite thesebooksabout theBible, Idisagreewith them. I’mnotattackingChristianity.I’mattackingaformoffundamentalism.

Justin:Mike.This inerrancy issue isat theendof thedayabigdeal fora lotofpeopleanditisquitefundamental.Ifweshouldn’ttreatitasanessentialdoctrineas you know,what it takes to be saved, theywill at least say it’s an importantsupporting aspect because as Bart kind of mentioned, if we do start doubtingwhether Scripture is revealing things accurately to us, though it is throughScripturethatwehavetherevelationofJesusChristwhoisifyoulike,thecenterofChristianity.So,howdoyousortofrespondtothat?

Mike: I largelyagreewithBarton this. Idon’t think thatBiblical inerrancy isanessential doctrine, a Gospel doctrine, that must be believed in order to be aChristian.Idothinkthatmanyevangelicalsplaceitsimportancefarhigherthanitshouldbe.Andsowhatendsupisapersonhasabrittlefundamentalistfaiththatcan be easily knocked down the first time someone points out something orthere’sadiscrepancyintheGospelsandthey’rethinking“Wow!HowcanthisbeifthisisGod’sinerrantWord?”Thentheymakeahastygeneralization,orahastyconclusion,whichwouldbe,“Wow!Well,ifthere’sonemistakeintheBiblethennoneofitcanbebelieved!”AndthatisjustaswrongassayingthatifyouproveonethingintheBibleistrue,thereforeit’salltrue.It’sjustalogicalfallacy.Ithinkpeoplecan fall to that.And Iwant tobeclear, I stillembraceBiblical inerrancy.They’resomethingsthatIstrugglewith,thatI’mstillworkingthroughwithit.ButIdon’tthinkthatBiblicalinerrancyisafoundationaldoctrineforone’sfaith.

Justin: Andwhenwe talk about inerrancy, different peoplemay have differentthingsintheirmindandwhatI’vediscoveredinthecourseofdoingthisprogramiswhenwe’vedoneprogramsoninerrancy,itkindofdependsonyourdefinitionofinerrancyandinthatsense,someonecomingafter,sayachurchwhereit’skindofsaid,“Everything is literallytrueaswrittendown”and“Itallhastomatchup

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exactlywiththewayweseethingsnow.”Andanotherpersonsays,“No,youhavetotakesomethingincontextandifyoulookatthecontextofwhattheybelievedabout,takeforinstance,Jesussaysthemustardseedisthesmallestofallseeds.”Andyougoonsomekindofskepticalblogandtheysay,“Well,youknow,there’samistake in the Bible because it’s not the smallest of all seeds.” And then theinerrantists might say, “Actually at the time, that was as far as they wereconcerned, the smallest of all seeds, so in the context it’s not a mistake.” Itdependsonhowtoviewamistake. Imean,wasthispartofthejourneyforyouMikeinkindofcomingfromthatstrictsortof,thatviewoftheBible,toakindofmore moderate position on what counts as a mistake and where you see thecontextandthatkindofthing?

Mike:Ithinkit’sanimportanttopic,Justin;especiallysinceI’vespenttimelookingat,youknow,I’mreadingthrough,I’mintheprocessnowofreadingthroughallthe ancientbiographies around the timeof Jesuswithin several hundred years.I’mreadingbookswrittenbyhistoriansofantiquity.Theydon’tstudytheBiblicalliterature. They’re studying the Greco-Roman literature and biographies andhistories thatwerewritten, thekindof liberties they tookand they justdidnotcareaboutthesameliteralexactitudethatwe’reconcernedabouttoday.AndsowehavetojudgetheGospels,thefourbiographiesthatwehaveofJesusincludedin the New Testament, we have to judge them according to the literaryconventions of their day and not ours because these guys didn’t form acommittee for the misleading of future Christians and future historians. Theywerewritingaccordingtotheliteraryconventionsofbiographyandhistoryofthefirstcenturyandbestastheyknewhow.

Justin: Isupposethere’sadangerofChristianscreatingarodfortheirownbackanddemandingmorethanyou’ddemandofanyotherformofliteraturefromtheBibleandthat’sarodtheycanbebeatenwithbyskepticswhosay,“Well,it’snotlivingup to the standard that you’ve created for it. Andwemight bewrong tokindofcreatethisfalsestandardofexactlywhattheBiblehastobeabletotellusaboutmodernscienceandthatkindofthing.”

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Mike:Iagreewithyouonthat.Whenwecometosomethinglikethetemptationin thewilderness that Jesus had,Matthew and then Luke report it and yet thesecondandthirdtemptationsarereversedintheirorder.Well,isthatanerrororwhat?Nowifthey’resaying“Hey, ithappenedexactly inthisorderanditdidn’thappen inanyotherorderand this is very important for theologicalpurposes!”thenyoumightsay,“Well,we’vegotanerrorthere.”Butit’sreallynotanissue.

Justin: I’d be interested Bart to come to the kind of emotional crisis thismusthaveformedatsomeaspectbecause,asIsay,atthepointatwhichyouactuallydidabandonyourChristianfaith,thatisahugestepforanyonetotakehoweverthey’vearrivedat that crisisof faith.And for you, it can’thavebeenadecisionyoutooklightly,tosay,“No.Ireallycan’tbelievethisanymore.”

Bart: No. Itwasn’t easy at all. And letme stress, itwasn’t because I no longerbelievedininerrancy.IgaveupinerrancyandthenwasaChristianformanymanyyears. Deciding not to believe once you have believed is an emotionallywrenching experience and I don’t recommend it to people. I felt like I had nochoice.Ithoughtthattruthwasmoreimportanttomethanholdingontobeliefsthat Isimplydidn’tbelieveweretrue.AndsoIfeltnooption. Ithoughtabout itforalongtime,dealtwithitforalongtime.Butitwasanemotionallywrenchingexperience.EventuallyIbecameanagnostic.So,it’snotonlythatIdon’tbelieveinChrist;Idon’tbelieveinGod.Ifyou’vebeenraisedintheChristianchurchandyou’ve had all sorts of doctrines and beliefs and views and perspectives drilledintoyouso itreally formsthefabricofyourexistenceandthenyoudecidethatit’snottrue,itisterrificallywrenching.

Justin:AndyoumustlookbackonpresumablyyearsofBiblestudy,prayer,thosegroupsyouwerepartofandeverything,does itall justseemmeaninglessnow?Canyouseethattherewasvalueinwhatyoudid?Didyoufindanythinglackingonce you did abandon belief in God? Did you find that, “No, it really wasn’tactuallyanythingthatreallylentanythingsignificantorsubstantialtomylifeafterall?”

Bart:These are all very complicated issues because belief isn’t just amatter ofhaving somekindof intellectual ideaof something thatyouabandon.Youhave

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family. Youhave friends. Youhave colleagues. Youhavepeople that you spendtime with. I was a youth pastor in a church in Chicago for three years as acommitted evangelical Christian and I led people to Christ. I had prayer groupswiththem.IhadBiblestudieswiththem.AndwhenIstoppedbeingaChristianIdidn’t then say, “Well, that was all worthless”, because these were in factimportant social bonds that I had formed and they’re an important part ofmypast.It’ssimplythatIdon’tbelieveanymorethatwhatIthoughtatthetimewastrue is true. Idon’tbelieve Jesuswas raised fromthedead. Idon’tbelieve thatJesus was uniquely the Son of God. I don’t believe that there’s a God whointervenes in thisworld,who answers prayer,who is active to bring about thesalvationoftheworld.

Justin:Youdescribeyourselfnowasanagnostic.WhenIhearthat,Ithinkaboutsomeone who doesn’t know whether there is a God. You haven’t describedyourselfasanatheistperse, inhavingapositivebeliefthatthereisnoGod.So,areyou,inthatsense,couldbepersuadedthatGodisthere?Imean,you’renotinanysenseadeist.Youdon’tbelievethereisanimpersonalGodofsomekind?

Bart:No

Justin:But it sounds likewhenyousayagnostic, itmakesme thinkyouhaven’tkindofreachedaclearconclusionthatGoddoesnotexist.

Bart: I don’t believe that the God of the Bible exists or the God of traditionalChristian teaching exists. I don’t believe that there’s a God who created thisworld, who created us, who redeems us, who’s active in this world, so I don’tbelieveinthatkindofGod.Butifsomebodyweretoaskme,“Doyouthinkthatthere’ssomekindofhigherpowerintheuniverse,”myresponseis,“Idon’tknowandIdon’tthinkanybodyelseknowseither.”ItmaybethatI’mjustholdingtoaverysmallsenseofhumilityinthefaceoftheuniverse.Idon’tknow,butIdon’tbelieveintheChristianGodanymore.

Justin:Mike.Presumably itcan’thavebeenan insignificantpartofyour journeyto in someway to abandon your faith would havemeant a huge shift in yourpersonal services. And I can imagine that that is an important part of anyone’sjourney;that is,thebondstheymakewithintheirtraditionandthatgoesforan

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atheist becoming a Christian, it will be a significant wrench from the kinds ofvalues or community that they were part of. So, when you hear Bart’s story,what’syourreactiontoit?

Mike:Wow. Icanresonatewitha lotof it,especiallywhenBart talksabouttheagonizingprocess, andhedoesn’t recommend it topeople. I know thatwhen Iwas working on my dissertation on the resurrection, and by my nature I’m asecond guesser, I second-guess everything, EVERYTHING. And it’s torturous attimes. Idon’t likethat idiosyncrasy,butthat’s justtheway I’mwired.So,as I’mgoingthroughmydoctoralstudiesI’mdoingmyverybestbecauseIdoubtedmyfaithsomuchinthepast,I’mdoingmybesttoshelvemyownpersonalbiasestocomeatthisasobjectivelyaspossiblesothatformyselfIcanlookbackandsay,“Hey. I didmy very best at this. Iwas as objective as I could possibly be,” andhopefullylaysomeofthesenaggingdoubtstorest.So,asI’mdoingthisI’mgoingthroughtheprocessandI’msaying,“I’mnotgoingtotrytoresolvesomeofthesethings until the appropriate step of applying controlled historical method toweighinghypotheses.So,asI’mreadingthroughalltheliteratureonresurrectionby justaboutevery contemporary scholarwritingon it, I’m trying toempathizeandeven sympathizewithwhat they’re thinking.And so thisputsmy faith in atailspinandIcanrememberonenightlying inbedandthe lightshavebeenoutforprobablyfifteenminutes.Itwasveryquiet,andIthoughtmywifewasasleep.And then her voice breaks through the silence and the darkness and she says,“You’redoubtingagain,aren’tyou?”AndIsaid,“Yep.”Andshesaid,“So,doyoubelieve Jesus rose from thedead?”And I said, “Idon’t know tobehonestwithyou.”“Well,whatdoyoubelieve?”“I’mprettysureGodexists.I’mconvincedbythe scientific evidence and some of the philosophical argumentation for God’sexistence.So,IthinkHeexists.Butthat’saboutallI’mcertainofatthispoint.Andif I come to a different conclusion about the resurrection of Jesus, I know I’mgoingtohaveto lookforanother job.”So, Iagonizedthroughthisaswell. Icanappreciatetheprocessthathewentthrough.

Justin: That kind of interestingly does bring us to this issue of the resurrectionbecauselasttimeyouguysmetherethefundamentalkindofclashingpointwasthat you told Mike that you can’t do history and have a theological kind of

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outcomeessentially.Theresurrectionisnotanadmissibleexplanationforallthefactors that Mike brings to bear as to why there was a resurrection, becausethat’s, say,anactofGodandwedon’tdo that inhistory.Wecan’t impose themiraculoustoexplainhistoricalevents.Buta lotofpeoplegot intouchwithmeafter that Bart saying, “Isn’t that just Bart’s presupposition? He is an agnosticnowandhedoesn’tbelieveinGodsothat’snevergoingtobeanoptioninthatwayforyoutobelieve.”Inthatsense,haveyoukindof,nowyou’veburnedthatbridge,isitkindofimpossiblenowforyoutosee,foranythingtoconvinceyouinasense,thatamiraclehappened?Asyousaid,amiraclecan’thappen,itcan’tbeanexplanationforanyfacetofhistoryorScripture.

Bart:IthinktheresponsesomeofyourlistenershadisaconfusionofwhatIwassayingbecauseI’mnotsayingthatthehistorianhastoshowthattheresurrectiondidn’thappen.WhatI’msayingisthatanymiracleisoutsideoftherealmofwhathistorycanshow.Forexample,therearecertaindisciplinesthatdocertainthings.So, sociology has certain rules. Anthropology has certain rules. There arewaysthat you engage in anthropological research. There’s ways that you engage inmathematics.Therearerules.Therearerulesforhistory,too.Andhistoryisnotsimplydemonstratingwhathappenedinthepastbecausethepastisn’taccessibletous.Ifitwasaccessibletous,wewouldn’thavetohavethedisciplineofhistory.So,therearerulesthathistoriansuseinordertodemonstratewhathappenedinthepast.Andincludedinthoserulescannotbeanappealtothesupernatural.It’ssimplyoneoftherules.

Justin:Butyourviewmusthavechangedonthat.

Bart:No.ThiswasmyviewasaChristian.IhadthisviewasaChristian.

Justin:So,youalwaystookyourbeliefintheresurrectiononfaithratherthanonanyhistoricalevidenceinthatsense.

Bart:Ithoughtitwashistoricallyplausiblethattherewasaresurrection.Butthebeliefoftheresurrectionisabeliefthat’snotbasedonhistoricaldemonstration.Historianscannotdemonstratemiraclesbecauseitisn’twithintherealmofwhathistorianscando.That’swhywhenyoureadahistoryoftheSecondWorldWar,youwill never ever read ahistoryof the SecondWorldWar that indicates that

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Godwason the sideof the allies and that’swhy theywon.AChristian can saythat.AChristiancansayGodwasonthesideofthealliesandthat’swhywewon.And the Christian might be 100% correct. But it’s not within the realm of thehistorian’stoolboxtoshowthatGodwasonthesideoftheallies.

Justin: Mike. We’re treading similar ground to last time. But do you feel thatBart’s,asitwere,dismissalofthemiraculousinhisownpersonalexperienceisaproblem when it comes to the historicity of the resurrection as a miraculousevent?

Mike:Personalexperience?Idon’tknow.Ican’tspeakforhimonthat.

Justin: I suppose I’mnotsayinghispersonalexperience. I’msaying just the factthatBartdoesn’tbelievethatmiracleshappeninanysense.Thatpresuppositionisobviouslygoingtohaveabigimpactonyourthesis.

Mike: It couldverywellhavea large impact.Now Idodisagreewithhimaboutthe rules that he’s talking about. It’s just oneof the rules you can’t investigatemiracleclaims.Whenyoulookattheliteraturewrittenbyprofessionalhistorians,philosophers of history, outside the community of Biblical scholars there’s adebatepresentlytakingplace.IthasappearedinHistoryandTheoryonanumberofoccasions.ThisistakingplacenowevenwithinBiblicalscholarship.BobWebb,thegeneraleditorfortheJournalfortheStudyoftheHistoricalJesushaswrittenon this in a recentbook thathe co-editedwithDarrellBock, talkingabouthowhistorianscannot investigatemiracle claims.But thereareotherswhosay“Yes,theycan,”likeBradGregoryatNotreDame,aphilosopherofhistory,says,“Yep.Youcandothat.”Othershavesaid,“Yep.Youcandothat.”Attheendofthedaythough,intheliteraturewrittenbyprofessionalhistoriansoutsidethecommunityof Biblical scholars, they say that there are no canons of history. There are norulesof thegame.PeterNovick inhisbookThatNobleDreamhasaquote thathasbecomepretty famouswithin thephilosophyofhistory literaturewherehesays,bythe1980’s, thedisciplineofhistorywas inastatemuch likethat inthebookofJudges.TherewasnokinginIsraelandthateverymandidwhatwasrightinhisowneyes.So,therearereallynorulesofthegamewhenitcomestothis.So, that’s why a historical Jesus scholar like Dale Allison recently wrote how

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historical Jesus scholars, Biblical scholars, agreeonprecious little.And sowhenwetalkaboutahistoricalJesus,we’renottalkingaboutsomethingthatisagreeduponbyallscholars,becausenobodyagreesupontherules.It’samatterofhowdoweacceptahistoricalJesuslikeaJohnMeier’soraBartEhrman’sJesusoranN.T.Wright’shistoricalJesus.So,Idon’tagreethattherearerulesthatwouldsayhistorianscannotinvestigatemiracleclaims.

Justin: We’re going to take a quick break and then we’ll have a chance toconclude today’s program as we’ve been looking at, in some detail today, thefaith journey of both Mike Licona and Bart Ehrman who reached a similarcrossroadsifyoulikeintheirviewofScriptureandthechallengesitrepresentedwhen studied in an academic way. But they went in different directionsultimately.Mike continues tohold to the inerrancyof Scripture and to the factthat studying at this kind of level needn’t shake one’s faith in the Bible. BartEhrman took a different walk and we’ve been hearing about that today. Myname’s Justin Brierley and we’ll be back in just a moment’s time for theconclusionoftoday’sprogramhereonUnbelievable.

Justin:So,we’rejustconcludingtoday’sprogramandwhatafascinatingoneit’sbeenaswe’vetakena littlebitmoreofapersonal journeyontoday’sprogram,notsomuchofatechnicalbackandforth, thoughtherehavebeenelementsofthat. But looking at the faith journeyof Bart Ehrmanwhohas veryoften in hisworkstoldusinbriefthestoryofhisbeginningasanEvangelicalChristianonfireasitwerefortheLordandfinallythough,comingtoapointafteryearsofBiblicalstudy of deciding that this was not the way to look at Scripture and indeedabandoning his faith in the end, versus Mike Licona who, as I mentioned isresearch professor ofNew Testament at Southern Evangelical Seminary [Liconanow teaches at Houston Baptist University], had a similar kind of crossroadsexperiencebutdidn’t take thepath thatBartdid.Bart. You’veabandoned faithaltogether now and we did a program that kind of dealt with what was theclincherforyou,theproblemofsuffering.Obviouslytherearemanytheodiciesasthey’re calledout there that claim tobeable to reconcile the fact that there issufferingand thatneverthelessaGodof loveand infinitepower still exists.Butindeedthereareotheraspects.Weoftendoshowsonthisprogramdealingwith

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theargument fromfine-tuningof theuniverseandthe incredibleodds that thisuniversecouldproducelifewithouthavingitbeendesignedinsomeway,thefactthat theBigBangproducedabeginningof timeandspace,andcouldGodbeafirstcauseforthat?Philosophicalonessuchastheargumentfrommoralitythatwe can’t have any objectivemoral values unless there is amoral lawgiver andtherearemanymorebesides.Wouldyousaythatyou’vekindofevaluatedthoseandyou’rehappytosortofsay,“No,onthebalanceoftheevidence,Godreallydoesn’texist,”quiteapartfromyourobviouslylonghistoryofBiblicalstudies?

Bart:Yeah.Right.So,myleavingthefaith,itobviouslyhadsomethingstodowithBiblicalstudiesanddiscrepanciesandproblemswiththeBible. Ithadsomethingtodowithit,butyou’reright.Whatultimatelyledmetoleavethefaithwasthisproblemofsuffering.IdidknowtheargumentfortheexistenceofGod,ofcourse.ImeanI’maprofessorofreligiousstudiesatamajoruniversity.So,Ihaveheardofthese.WhatIwouldencourageeverybodytodoistobewillingtochangetheirminds if theythinkthatthey’rewrong,whatever it is that ismostcompellingtothem.Andsoformeandmycase,itwastheproblemofhowtherecanbesuchextensive suffering in theworld if there’s a Godwho’s in control of it? I knowwhattheanswersare.Iknowthetheodicies.I’vetaughtclassesonthetheodiciesand Isimplydon’t findanyofthemsatisfyingtomepersonally.Andalloftheseare personal decisions andwhat I urge people to do,my students,when I givepublic talks toyour listeners, isnot to settle for thesimpleanswers that simplyconfirmwhattheyalreadythink,thatofteninfactthereareotherviewsthataremorecompelling ifyouwill listentothem.AndeventhoughIdon’turgeyoutoleave the faith because of how emotionally wrenching it is, I think people likeMikedidneedtobewillingtoconsiderwhetherinfacttheirfaithiswhatmakesbestsensetothemornotbecausethereareotherwaysoflookingattheworld.And I should say thatwhen I left the faith, even though I felt like therewas amajorstruggleformeandthattherewereholesinmylifethathadn’tbeentherebefore,IinfactammuchhappiernowthanIwasthen,becauseIreallythinknowthatmyearlierviewswerewrongand thatwhen Iheld to themIwasbelievingthingsthatweren’ttrue.AndsoIthinkthatIhavemuchmorepeacewithmyself,

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thatI’mhappierabouttheworld.IfeelmorecontentedinlifethanIdidbefore.Andsoeventhoughitisemotionallywrenching,it’salsoworthit.

Justin: Thank you very much for joining us today Bart. Mike. What’s yourresponsebothtowhatBartsaidthere.Butalso I’dappreciateyourthoughtsonthequestionofthescholarlyopinionandwhetheryouareconvincedornotintheresurrectionofJesusattheendoftheday.I’dbeinterestedtohearkindofhowmuchkindof,as itwere, justpurelypersonalsubjectiveexperienceofbelievingthatGod’sthereandworking inyour lifeandthatkindofthing;howmuchthathas played into a story of not coming to a point of jettisoning things because Ithinkformostpeoplethatisultimatelygoingtobeaprettyimportantfactorinallofthisaswell? It’snot just if it turnsouttheevidence ismore infavorormoreagainst.That’snottheonlythingthatcomesintoplaywhenitcomestowhetherwebelievesomethingornot,isn’tit?

Mike: I think it couldbe.When Iwasdoingmyworkon the resurrectiona fewyearsback,Itriednottothinkaboutthesubjective,thepersonalexperiencesthatIbelieveI’vehadofthedivineandjustmerelylookattheevidenceandsay,“Ifwelook at this through strictly controlled historicalmethod,what dowe come upwith?” It’s hard to do. It’s kind of like trying to proceed as though you’re notmarriedandwhat itwouldbe like if youweren’tmarried,butyouknowyou’remarried. You’ve got themarriage certificate there. You know yourwife. You’relivingwithher.So,howdoyouseparatethetwo?It’shardtodo,butIdolookatsomeotherthings.Butasidefromthat,andasidefrommyhistoricalinvestigation,I lookatthingssuchasansweredprayerthat I’veexperienced.NowIknowthattherearea lotofthingslikehowdoyouknowthatGoddidthat?Thatcouldbepure coincidence.Wemight call those a kind of class two answered prayer. Aclass one answeredprayerwouldbe something thatwouldbe very difficult forthat.I’vehadanumberofthoseexperience.I’msuremostChristianshavewhereyousay“Ohmygosh!Thisismorethanacoincidencehere!”It’slikeyouprayforsomeonewho’sonthebrinkofdeathandattheverymomentyouprayforthemandyou’renoteveninthesameroom,you’refaraway,butattheverymomentyou pray for them, Boom! All of a sudden they feel something in their bodythey’re able to testify later on as if it’s being healed at that point. Then they

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survive,endupsurvivingtheevent.ThosearethekindsofanswerstoprayerthatI’mtalkingabout.I’veseenseveralofthosehappeninmylife.Ilookatthatandanumber of other experiences like that. Although the problem of evil, pain andsuffering that Bartmentioned, it is a challenge to Christianity.Others likeAlvinPlantinga,morerecently,IhaveacolleaguenamedDavidWoodwhoisaddressingthese things. Through a combination of the two they do a great job. Does itcompletely solve the problem? I don’t know. Iwouldn’t say that it does. But itcertainlypresentsplausible,highlyplausiblealternativesthanjustsayingthattheChristianGoddoesn’texist.Andwhenyoucombinethatwithpersonalexperienceand with the scientific evidence for Intelligent Design, I think, on balance, theargumentsfortheChristianGod,includingtheevidencefortheresurrection,arepretty decisive and they outweigh the arguments against it. Andwhen you putthetwoincomparison,thetipofthescaleisnotaverygentleone.

Justin: Well, obviously that has certainly been your experience and theexperience I’msureofmany listening.Many listening thoughwouldhavehadasimilarjourneytoBartandI’dbeinterestedinhearingyourreactiontowhatyouheard today andwhat your responsewould have been in Bart’s situation or inMike’s, to get your stories in. If you’d like to do that, I’ll give the contactinformationout inamoment.Allthatremainsformetodonowistosaythankyou somuch to bothmy guests. Bart. You’ve shared very honestly about yourjourney and taking it slightly outside the economic situation, talking about thepersonaljourneythatthatmeantforyouissomethingthatyou’reveryhappytoshare and I commend you for that. It’s refreshing. Thank youMike as well forbeing so honest about the struggles you’ve had, but obviously the finerresolution,whichwasverydifferent toBart’s.And thankyouboth forbeingonwithmetoday.

Bart:Thankyou.

Mike:Mypleasure.