An Interview With Master Zhu by Gaynel Hamilton

8/3/2019 An Interview With Master Zhu by Gaynel Hamilton

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An Interview with Master Zhu by Gaynel Hamilton

(Published in Tai Chi Chuan Magazine, issue 10, Autumn/Winter 1998)

It may seem a bit odd that a great Chinese Master has been in this country for the best

part of ten years without the rest of the Tai Chi community hearing about it. It’s not that we’re a possessive lot here in Leeds, it’s just that Master Zhu Guang, known as Grant to

many of his friends, has never had the desire to build a reputation or to prove anything. He doesn’t have to.

Having founded the Tai Chi Hsing Yi Society at the University of Leeds in 1989 and established a centre of excellence in the teaching of Tai Chi , Hsing Yi and Bagua , he has

continued to decline offers of wider fame and fortune. Although he is the most modest

person I have ever met, I have never met anyone who comes close to him in terms of skill,

understanding and power in Martial Arts, or in terms of the quiet strength and dignity inhis daily life. I have had the privilege of being with him for most of the time he has been

in England. He is my best friend and Godfather to my baby daughter. I owe him so much I wouldn’t know where to begin.

Before leaving Britain this year, Master Zhu was kind enough to share some of his

thoughts about Martial Arts:

One of the striking things about your Tai Chi is the intricacy and power of the

movements when compared with much of the Tai Chi one normally sees in this

country and elsewhere. For example, the twenty-four step form world-wide seems

very diluted in comparison with the way we do it here in Leeds. Why is this?

The twenty-four forms sequence is normally performed to the Chinese National Standard.Everyone tries to do it exactly the same way. It is simple so that it is accessible to many

people. But if you were to go to the Martial Arts schools in Beijing, you would not see

Tai Chi done that way. There, the forms are much more advanced. In the Beijing MartialArts schools students learn the basics and then progress from there until their Tai Chi

becomes very personal and spontaneous instead of sticking rigidly to prescribed

sequences. You would see people there doing very complex movements, very powerful

movements. Although the training is very disciplined, they have more freedom toexperiment and to develop their own internal power. If a beginner saw Tai Chi done in

this way it would not make much sense to them, it would be too complicated to follow.

So most teachers stick to the simple, traditional sequences, at least until their studentshave developed their skills and understanding of Tai Chi and other Chinese Internal

Martial Arts to the point where the higher skills can then be explored.

Many times, you have stressed to me the importance of Hsing Yi and Bagua in Tai

Chi, and of the value of learning Chen style as well as Yang style. Would you like to

explain this further for the benefit of other people learning Tai Chi?

http://yiheyuan.co.uk/taichi.aspx


http://yiheyuan.co.uk/hsingyi.aspx

http://yiheyuan.co.uk/bagua.aspx



http://yiheyuan.co.uk/hsingyi.aspx




If I didn’t study Chen style, my Yang style would not be so subtle. And if I didn’t do Tai

Chi, Hsing Yi and Bagua together at the same time, I could never feel accomplished. If

you only do Yang style from the beginning, practicing for many years without stretchingyour view and skills into Hsing Yi and Bagua, you might still not know what Tai Chi is.

Even if you did some push hands as a supplementary exercise, you still might not know

the Tai Chi essence, especially if you were unable to find good opponents in push handswho could explain it to you properly.

What do Hsing Yi and Bagua contribute to Tai Chi? How do they help?

I would like to give an analogy here. It’s like when you study Mathematics and gradually

have to learn Physics and Chemistry. No one can say that he is a Physicist without

knowing Mathematics. It’s the same with Chemistry, you have to be able to calculate somany things if you want to study Chemistry properly. It is the mathematical principles

that lay as the corner stone to support all scientific and technological studies. You could

learn some Mathematics for its own sake, but in the end, if you want to be a great

mathematician and understand the workings of the natural world and universe, you haveto apply your Mathematics to real situations, so you have to learn Physics and Chemistry.

These subjects are all interconnected and interdependent. You can’t pull one out andthink of it as an entirely separate thing. The same is true of the Chinese Internal Martial

Arts. They are all based on the Tai Chi principles; this is the underlying sense of them all.

Bagua makes your body more capable of twisting and so your movements become morestable, devious and powerful. Bagua can make you able to twist like a rigid rope that is

ready to whip and stab at any moment. From doing Bagua, your body should become

strong and flexible and difficult to break.

Hsing Yi gives you concentration and sharpens the explosive strength. If I had never

done Hsing Yi, I would not be confident when facing some strong opponents. Hsing Yimakes you feel like a bullet that can penetrate into the body. Tai Chi, Hsing Yi and

Bagua are not the only good Martial Arts in the world, but they are the ones that I have

fortunately been involved with and benefited from for so many years and I am thereforeaware of their great value.

Do you have any advice on how to improve push hands skills in Tai Chi?

Potentially, push hands can help a lot in terms of gaining understanding and skill in Tai

Chi. However, if you always push with people of average skill, it will not help at all. But

if you are fortunate enough to have the chance to push seriously for just one session witha real expert, then a huge jump can be made in your progress. Suddenly, all the

experiences gained from years of practice can be connected and absorbed into your

system and a great breakthrough can be made. Of course you need to make many such breakthroughs in you life in order to reach a very high standard. Pushing with great

masters does not always help, because some masters would not really push with you, they

just show you a bit of principle when they are giving a demonstration, so that you still

don’t know how to apply it spontaneously.



If you want to make progress in push hands, you must try the real push. A real push does

not mean you get yourself into a violent and wild confrontation. You should still try toapply the Tai Chi skills into your push, but it means you give 100% of your concentration

and effort to make it and, even more importantly, your opponent is also giving his best. If

both of you are giving your utmost performance and you are then uprooted and thrownout suddenly, to fall on the ground without any control, that is a real push. This will make

you think about that push for many years. You can learn a lot from this, but not from the

sort of co-operative jumping back that some people do for an impressive demonstration.

I pushed with many people in Beijing during the eighties, and I experienced these

situations. Fortunately, there were quite a few skilled people around and I really benefited

tremendously from doing push hands and discussing with them. I have pushed with somevery good people, including several old men who have been pushing hands every day

from 6:00am to 11:00am for over 40 years in Dong Dang park, where the Beijing Martial

Arts School of Eastern District was located from the late 1970’s until the middle of the

1990’s, on the Eastern side of Tian An Men Square in Beijing. I learned a great deal fromthem.

You obviously consider strength to be very important in Tai Chi. I understand that

you are talking here about internal strength, rather than simply physical strength,

but you have said that the body does need to be strong, like a rope. Other teachers,

such as Cheng Man Ching, have emphasised the importance of investing in loss and

relaxing to the extreme. What do you think of the highly relaxed state?

This is the very high level of the Art. If you are not relaxed, you cannot exert the realfunction of the Art. However, I think Cheng Man Ching’s teaching is not really suitable

for beginners. If you only learn to relax from the very beginning, it’s not really practical

in terms of teaching.

Besides, I have also been wondering if Cheng Man Ching was really teaching his

students in the way that has been spread in the western countries nowadays. This doubthas been in my mind for a long time. From my observation, most of the foreign students

who studied with him only stayed there for 2 to 6 moths and then came back to start

teaching the next generation of students. Under these circumstances, little truly useful

training could be experienced at all, which inevitably results in jumping to conclusions,they only see the Tai Chi relaxation appearance, but they don’t know how the great

master has transformed into it.

What is missing if you learn Tai Chi this way?

Everything is missing! First you must develop strength, which does not appear with toomuch tension, it is the internal strength, reflected in the movement of your forms. The

relaxation comes later.

Relaxation doesn’t mean looseness or sloppiness, with no precision in the forms. You can



do it like that for 50 years and still not know what Tai Chi is. That’s OK if you don’t

want to become good. If you just want to learn to relax or do Tai Chi as a kind of soft

dance (as many people have understood mistakenly), it’s enough, but not if you want to be a real Martial Artist.

Relaxation comes gradually, after practicing for a certain period, which depends on theindividual, especially if you do a lot of push hands with good skilled people, then your

progress will be faster. Through push hands, you know what your concentration should

be on. You learn the timing. You know when you should be in a state of tension andwhen you should be in the state of relaxation.

I don’t think several decades ago, when Cheng Man Ching moved from Beijing to

Taiwan, he was doing Tai Chi in the way that he did it in his later years. Many subtlethings could be hidden in his highly relaxed forms, but most people won’t be able to see

it, if it is not interpreted properly. I know this from my master, Professor Wang Zhi

Zhong, many years ago.

The best way top learn anything is to start from the state with a shape and gradually

transform towards the state without a shape. Ultimately, Tai Chi becomes spontaneous.The shape becomes less important, because at any moment the state is changing and

shifting, both internally and externally, mentally and physically. Cheng Man Ching’s

forms look very loose and relaxed because he had reached a very high level and the shape

is not important at all at that stage. But internally and mentally, it is precisely shaped.

I think that Cheng Man Ching in his later years got nearly to the spontaneous state. I

think that his skill had reached about the same level as that of Professor Wang ZhiZhong, but Cheng Man Ching’s health was not good. This is bad news for a Martial

Artist. If your health is not good you can’t really issue your power. Professor Wang’s

health at sixty years old was amazing. He looked very young physically, like a thirty year old. He is now about seventy. When I brought him to Leeds in 1991, he was sixty-two

and still practicing for three hours every morning. I put him in the guest room at

Boddington Hall and he used to get up at 5am and go outside and train until 8am. Hecould still jump up in the air and drop down into sideways splits, even then. Many

famous masters in Beijing were overwhelmed by his skills. He is an amazing man.

Remarkable. He can be called a true expert in Martial Arts. He has been the head of the

China Mei Hua Zhuang Association in Beijing for many years.

Altogether I experienced six very famous Martial Arts Masters in Beijing, but I have

studied with Professor Wang for the longest time. He is one of the best teachers around interms of his understanding, skills and strength. For many years, he was a Professor at the

university, in charge of Physical Education and he has written several books on Martial

Arts. He has retired now from the university. He went to teach in Germany for three yearsand travelled to other parts of the world, but he is back in Beijing now.

As well as Chen, Yang and Wu style Tai Chi, and Hsing Yi and Bagua, he also taught

Shaolin, and especially Mei Hua Zhuang (Er Mei School). I trained with him regularly



while I was an undergraduate, from about 1978 onwards. I learned Hsing Yi first, then

Tai Chi and Bagua. I also did Mei Hua Zhuang with Professor Wang. It’s another branch

of Internal Martial Arts. It originally had eleven levels but Professor Wang developed itinto thirteen levels and he is now head of this Martial Art in China.

How did you first become interested in Martial Arts?

I was growing into a teenager when the Cultural Revolution was proceeding towards the

end. During that period I could not see many people practicing Martial Arts, but at thattime, like many children in China, I did a lot of basic physical training such as Shaolin

training. I was said to be very talented and therefore I was sent to join the Peking Opera

School at the age of eight and stayed there until I was twelve. We did lots of exercises

like that in gymnastics. I seemed to spend lots of time upside-down. Then, when I was inhigh school, one night I was walking down the street (as I usually did for relaxing my

nerves and stretching my joints between hard working sessions) when I saw a man, one

of my neighbours, through the gloom under the street lights. He was moving in a very

strange way, his body was sinking so low that he was almost squatting down, yet he waswalking so slowly, so evenly, but still with a rhythm! He seemed like a robot full of

springs releasing their potential energy very slowly and evenly. I was so impressed andintrigued that I walked over to talk to him, but he was concentrating so much that I didn’t

dare to interrupt. I kept waiting for about thirty minutes until he finished. I asked him

what he was doing. He said it was Tai Chi. I was amazed. I had never seen Tai Chi done

like this before. It was not like what I saw the majority of people doing every day in the park. In China most young people don’t pay much attention to Tai Chi. They say it’s for

old people only. That’s because they don’t know the real Tai Chi. Once I had seen real

Tai Chi I could never forget its charm. From then on, I always imagined that some day Icould do this wonderful thing myself!

In your opinion, what is “real Tai Chi”?

Everyone has different levels of understanding about what Tai Chi is, but only a few

people are brave enough to raise this challenging question, ”What is real Tai Chi?” Ingeneral, I think it’s unfair to say that this person is doing real Tai Chi and that person

isn’t. I think everybody is practicing and progressing through different stages of learning

the Tai Chi art, but when you come to the terms of what I would consider to be proper

Tai Chi, I would like to define it according to these few points:

1 Any Tai Chi expert should be able to see the principles from your forms and your spirit, the attitude.

2. You must know yourself that you are doing Tai Chi. That means you should bear theunderstanding of the Tai Chi principles in your mind while you are practicing the Tai

Chi routines. It’s not just copying other people’s movements, like dancers can copy the

Tai Chi forms, very quickly without knowing any Tai Chi principles; this is purely a physical copying.



3. Every little thing that you are doing should follow the principles to your ownunderstanding, which means that the physical and mental aspects must be combined

together. You must combine the physical movements with mental understanding, the

external appearance with internal strength.

4. The last point is also the most important: you must also be breathing properly. Very slow, very deep, very controlled breathing, combined with the movements, is Tai Chi

breathing.

When you and I have watched many people doing Tai Chi on videos or at various

demonstrations, you have always appeared to be largely unimpressed. Very

occasionally you have said that a particular person had “spirit” or the “Tai Chi

sense”. What do you think of the Tai Chi you have seen in this country?

Everyone is improving. I think some people are doing very well, but most of the people I

have seen, even some of those taking part in demonstrations in international events, werenot breathing properly. In particular, you can’t do Chen style without combining the

breathing with it. You can’t do it. It’s impossible. You can’t generate the spirit, theexplosive power. You need very sophisticated breathing exercises for many years to do

Chen style properly. Just deep, slow breathing is not good enough, it should also be

controlled to any extent that you want, this will give you good timing when issuing the

power. Then you will benefit from the breathing significantly. If you watch a Master demonstrating forms, you should be able to see this.

In this country, there is something of a controversy about the nature of Chi and, in

particular, whether or not it can be mysteriously issued through the air and used to

push people over without physically touching them. As a Martial Artist and a

scientist with a PhD in Civil Engineering at the University of Leeds, do you have any

thoughts about this?

This topic has been debated for many years in China. I think QiGong is still on the borderline between a mystery and a true science. In China and elsewhere over the last

twenty years, there have been many scientific experiments to prove the existence of

QiGong. By using very sensitive equipment, a variation of electromagnetic field can be

detected when a QiGong master is releasing his power. You can even measure theintensity of a Chi field. I believe in the research results. I think it is just a sort of energy

generated from the human body. The QiGong master has got the skills and, after a certain

period of practice, then he is able to concentrate his energy and release it through hissystem. A true expert can really issue his own power through his system and use this

power to gather the outside energy, including that of his opponent, so that his power can

be amplified in order to function and to manipulate the opponent. This idea has beenaccepted in China for many years. There are people who can use this energy to heal

people and eliminate illness from the body. The energy can be concentrated intensely

enough to burn the illness out, somehow like a laser.



What about throwing people around without touching them?

If the energy of the subject that you are working on can be manipulated by you, mostly by your mental energy, then the work can be done, otherwise it is doubtful.

When you talk about energy in this way, it sounds a bit like hypnosis, more of amental influence over people’s behaviour than a physical force. Do you think that

there is a difference between Eastern and Western concepts of what is meant by the

word “energy”?

Exactly! Hypnosis can be thought of as a sort of QiGong. If you have a very strong,

charismatic, dominant personality, you know the skills and, more importantly, the people

that you are working on are very receptive and easily manipulated, then you can controlmany people’s minds. In that case it is easy to make them fall over, even when several of

them are standing one behind the other (but usually the people have to connect with each

other physically).

They say there’s no gain without pain. That’s certainly been true of my training

with you over the years. What advice would you give to people learning Tai Chi in

terms of training?

I would firstly like to say that you have to keep your enthusiasm for a long period,

because Tai Chi is the subtlest art, it takes many years to really understand the principlesand get the skills into your body, even when you have been following a really good

teacher.

Secondly, always try to get a good teacher, and try to learn from different teachers, it will

help you to recognise what is good and what is not. Once you have found a really good

teacher, you should respect his arts, his skills, and cherish what he has taught. The senseof family (in martial arts) link can always develop a better relationship between the

teacher and students, so that the teacher can be more inspired by the students.

Consequently, the students can get more useful instructions.

A good teacher can always be inspired by his students to generate many sparkling ideas

and develop the skills, develop the arts. Conversely, a good student can always raise good

questions for the teacher, even though sometimes it is challenging! A good teacher shouldhave a high enough standard in his arts for his students, and should be open-minded.

Being orally-expressive would be an advantage in teaching, but not many students really

enjoy listening instead of doing!

Now let us come to the point of practical training. I do not think that the more hours you

practice, then the more progress you make, and the harder you train then the better you become. It is not necessarily true! But people usually prefer to say that, “I f you train

harder then you get better”, especially those people who are successful. Actually, a lot of

technical know-how is hidden in the word “harder”.



I do agree that diligence and working hours are basic requirements which lead to

improvement but, in terms of improving the Martial Art skills, the most important thing is

understanding. Just standing there doing meditation without knowing the principles issilly practicing; just trying to remember more and more forms without learning the Tai

Chi essence is also being a silly practitioner! If people are doing Tai Chi in this way, no

matter how diligent they are, their progress must be slow. Sometimes, you might even getyourself injured, and for most people, because they cannot make progress after a period

of practicing or hard training, then they become disappointed and quit training.

I would like to suggest that people learn Tai Chi in a scientific way, without training too

hard physically at the beginning. I suggest that they read more books, Tai Chi stories,

biographies and Tai Chi history and theory. These readings will raise their interest in Tai

Chi and will give them more of a profile about what Tai Chi is. If you do this, thengradually you will feel you are a Tai Chi person and you will feel you are linked with the

Tai Chi family, so that every time you practice Tai Chi you feel a sort of affection! From

Tai Chi stories, you know that other ordinary people become Tai Chi masters, you know

what they did technically, and you can learn some techniques from their stories.

Finally, I would like to summarise my advice in one sentence:

“Hard training with know-how, under the instruction of a really good teacher, is the way

leading to a high level Tai Chi master.”

I would also like to take this opportunity to thank my masters: Professor Wang Zhi

Zhong, Professor Yi Xian Jun in Beijing Physical Education University, Master Zhu Bao

Zhen, Master Luo Da Cheng, and Master Zhang Bao Zhong, in the Beijing Mrtial ArtsSchool of Eastern District, and all those people who helped me improve my martial skill

during those years in Tsing Hua University, Beijing Martial Arts School, Beijing Physical

Education University, and Dong Dan Park.

My special thanks also extends to those students and friends who helped me carry out the

various Martial Arts workshops, seminars and weekly classes over the last ten years inthe UK.

And on behalf of all the students of Yiheyuan and the University of Leeds Tai Chi

Hsing Yi Society, I would like to thank you, Master Zhu, for everything you have done

for us. We’ll miss you boss. Wherever you go, our love goes with you and your spirit

lives on in us.

Documents

An Interview With Master Zhu by Gaynel Hamilton