“A Fusion Pioneer Talks About Cold Fusion

7/29/2019 A Fusion Pioneer Talks About Cold Fusion

1/17

36 Summer2009 21stCenturyScience&Technology

Dr.PostwasinterviewedbyManagingEditorMarjorieMazelHechtonJune12,2009.

Question:ImhonoredtointerviewyouDr.Post.Readingoverallyouraccomplishments,Ithinkwemightweneedtwointer-viewsinordertoaskyouallthequestionsIhave!Ourmagazine,asyouknow,isthesuccessortoFusionmag-

azine,andwehavepromotedusionandadvancedtechnolo-giesormanyyearsnow,sowhatIwouldliketocoverintheinterviewis theusionquestion,the Inductrackmaglev,the

magneticbearing,andyourfywheelideaandanythingeyoudliketotalkabout.Well,reaway.

Question:WealsoworkwithaYouthMovement,andIwanthavetheyouthgetacquaintedwithsomeothesetechnolgiesthathavebeenyourmissioninyourcareer.Idliketostwithusion,andhaveyoutalkaboutyourideaortheATMtheAxisymmetricTandemMirrorusionreactor.Youvebeworkingonthisoralongtime.Howdowebringthisintob

ing?Intherstplace,Iwould

callitmyidea.Ididcomewithawayodoingit,buttharemanywaystoskinacat.Tbasicconcept,thatisnotwhcameupwith.Idbeenlookiat away o making an ATbased on theory by [DmiRyutovbutaswelearned,tharealsomanyotherwaystobilize the MHD [magnetodrodynamic] instability moo an Axisymmetric TandMirror.AllIwasdoingistakioneparticularwayotryingseehowonewouldimplemthat.ButIthinkthatwhatwes

outwith,andtakeasascien

icgiven,isthatanATMcanMHD stabilized, and thenromthere.Thedetailsowhparticulartechnique,orcomnationotechniques,islettheuture.Therealpointisthwhat was once consideredbartotheuseoaxisymmeeldsin tandemmirrors islongerrelevant.

INTERVIEW: RICHARD F. POST

A Fusion Pioneer TalksAbout Fusion and

How to Get There

LLNL

ArtistsdrawingotheMirrorFusionTestFacility(MFTF),builtatLawrenceLivermoreNationalLaboratoryinthe1980s.Thevaccuumvesselatcenterisshieldedinaseven-story-highcon-cretevault.TheMFTFwasorcedtoshutdownsoonateritwasullycompletedbecauseobudgetcuts.TheU.S.magneticusionprogramwasthennarrowedtoconcentrateontoka-maks.


2/17

21stCenturyScience&Technology Summer2009 37

Theearlyhistoryomirrorsinvolveddiscoveringthisdritmode,MHDmode,andthequickxorit,thegeniusxorit,wastheIoeworkinRussia.Andtheabandonmentoaxisym-metry,whichdidsolvethatproblem,introducedawholehostonewproblems

Question:WhatyearwastheIoework?

ThatwasreportedinSalzburgaround1961simovich,whowastheheadotheSovietprocameatatimewhenwewereencounteringthbilityandreportingresults,andsoorth,andhupwiththisdiscussionotheIoeexperimentproved the theoryo that. Ingenious, butaedgedswordinthesensethatitbroughtalong

plexityandanintroductiononewdritmodesparticlesthatwerenotpresentinaxisymmetry.Now,earlieston,inourignorance,wehadt

isymmetricsystemsandoundthemtobestthose particular experiments.We didnt undwhy, because we knew rom the theory thshouldbedritingsideways,buttheydidnot;wereportedinPhysicalReviewLetterstheoneotheseexperimentswouldproducealitdleoveryhotelectrons.Weoundthatthetransversediusioninth

spindle,whichwasacoupleocentimetersinterandmaybe10-20centimeterslongeven

theelectronswereveryhotwasveordersotudeslowerthantheso-calledBohmratethatmultaneouslybeingencounteredinthebigmStellaratoratPrinceton.

Thisisaveryimpressivedierence.FortheelectrondritacrossaeldinthatStellaratorexperimentrequpresenceofuctuations,characterizedbytheBohmdrate,andwesimplywereveordersomagnitudebWell,hadwepursuedthislead,andunderstoodthestabmechanism,whichwethinkweunderstandyearslatethinkwewouldhavegonedownaverydierentpath,i

omirrorresearch.

TheImportanceoAxisymmetry

Therearemanyreasonswhyaxisymmetryistantinthiscontext.WhatImeanbyaxisymmbasically the shapeo a cigar, or party-popsomethingacylinder,acylindricalsystemwfuxlinesrunningaxially[seeFigure1].Now,therearebothphysicsreasonsanden

ingreasonswhythisopen-endedaxisymmettemisvery,veryadvantageous.IntherstplawasshownbyTellerandNorthrupwaybackwthe1950spractically,whenyouhaveanaxisymsystem,andparticlesaretrappedinthataxisymsystemothekindIjustdescribed,withacomirrorsateitherend,thedritsuracesothep

astheymovebackandorth,arerefectedbaorth,andaredritingaround,thesedritsurathemselvescylinders,closingthemselves.Theparticlebouncesbackandorthanddri

waysslowly.Soitsorbitgeneratesasurace,suraceisalsoaxisymmetric.IyoutakeaStellaratorandputaparticle

someclassesoparticlessimplydritsidewaythe system.Theonly reason to conne themaintained,isthatthoseparticlesareknockethose special regionsbycollisions, so thed

Figure1PRINCIPLESOFATANDEMMIRRORFUSIONREACTOR

Thelineardesignothetandemmirrormakesitsimplertoengineerandwith

ewerplasmainstabilitiesthanthetokamakconguration.Source: LLNL

Hot steam Out

Hot gas

Water

Cool gas CompressorLithium

Mirror magnet

Energy absorber

Some ions escapeSolenoid magnet

Magnet shield

Magnetic field lines

PPPL

TheStellaratorA,builtatthePrincetonPlasmaPhysicsLaboratoryin1952,wasLy-manSpitzersrstusionmachine.Itssmallsizecanbegaugedbythehandatlet.Theearlystellaratorsbentthetorusintoagureeight.Laterstellaratorswerelarger,andhadmoreinstabilitiesthantheearlytandemmirrors.


3/17


rateisenhanceditheywerentdoingthat.Soaxisymmetrypro-ducedclosedsuraces.Therewasaclassicexperiment,thatyoumaybeawareo,

proposedbyNicholasChristolosotheLaboratory(LLNL)anexperimentthatcouldneverbe perormed todaywhichwastousetheEarthsaxisymmetricmagneticeldasatestorconnementohotelectrons,bytakingarocketandblowingoanuclearweaponinupperspace,whichreleasedacloudohotelectrons.Andthiscloudohotelectronsthenwasdetectedandremainedbeingdetectedoradecade.Thereareanenormousnumberorefectionsimpliedbythat

number,andImjustreerringbacktoit,togiveyousomeotheevidencewhyaxisymmetricsymmetryisimportant.Theresalsoawholeclassoinstabilitymodesootherkinds

thatsimplyarenotpresentinaxisymmetricsystems.Thatsbe-causewehavenoparallelcurrents,noelectricalcurrentsfow-

ingparalleltotheeldlines,astheremustbeinatokamak,orexample,orittowork.Thatsthewaythetokamakworks.Youinduceaverystrongcurrentaroundadonut,andthatcurlsupthecurrentintohelices,andthatswhythetokamakisabletocontainaplasma.Otherwise,theresnoequilibrium,andiyoudidnthavethatcurrent,theparticleswouldsimplydritprompt-lytothewall.Inanyevent,theresnoparallelcurrentintheaxisymmetric

systems,andsothatsourceoinstabilitiesisnotpresent.Icouldlistotherphysicsreasonsorthebetterstabilityoraxisymmet-

ricsystems,butIthinktheoneImentionedmakesthepoint.ThemainengineeringreasonsinavorotheATMarethat

linearsystemwithmodularcoilsisareasiertoexecutethan

toroidalsystem.Inthetokamak,alltheinteriorpartsaree

PPPL

Thelargestellaratorproject,theNationalCompactStellaratorExperiment,beganconstructionin2003atthePrincetonPlas-maPhysicsLaboratory,butwascancelledin2008orbudget-aryreasons.TheLabsremainingprojectistheNationalSpheri-calTorusExperiment(NSTX),whichissimilartoatokamak.

L

NicholasChristolos,aLivermorephysicistduringthe196designedtheASTRONMachinetoproducecontrolledthermnuclearenergy.HeproposedaclassicexperimentusingEarthsaxisymmetricmagneticeldtotestelectronbehavior.

Figure2CLOSEDTOROIDALGEOMETRY

A closed toroidal conguration or magnetic conne-mentoaplasma.Theplasmaiscontainedbytheeldsproducedbythemagneticcoilsandtheelectriccurrentinducedinthetorus.Thisgeometryhasmoreinstabilitymodesthananaxisymmetricsystem,whichhasnoelec-tricalcurrentsfowing.


4/17


posedtoneutronfuxesandseparatedromtheexterior.Inad-dition,thereisallthecomplexitythatgoeswiththeshapeothemagnetcoils,andwhathaveyou.Itsaarmorecomplexde-viceromanengineeringstandpointthananaxisymmetriclin-earsystemwouldbe.And,thesortocapperinmymind,inthelongterm,isthat

anopen,axisymmetricsystemisideallysuitedoradirectcon-versionothesechargedparticlestoelectricity.

DirectConversiontoElectricityQuestion:Canyouexplainhowthedirectconversionworks?Wedidexperimentshere,waybackwhen,andvalidatedthe

theoryothisconcept.Whatitamountstois:Supposeyouhaveausionreactiongoing,andyouhaveparticlesescaping,whichareamixtureotheslowlyleakingusionuelandthechargedreactionproducts, thealphaproducts,or example.Theyes-capeouttheend,andtheyaredirectedbytheshapeothefuxlines.Youcanasweshowedinourexperiment,andasother

peopledidinothertypesoexperimentsselectivelyseparatetheelectronsandionsromthisstreamoparticles,andgener-ateanelectriccurrentdirectlyromthissystem,andatvery

higheciency.Inourexperiments,weexceeded90percenteciencyoconversionothethermalenergyothoseescap-ingparticlesintodirectDCelectricpower.So,inthelongterm,whenIbelieveusionpowerplants

willbegoingtotheprimaryuelD-D[deuterium],andusingtheD-helium-3endproductsotheD-Dreaction.Mostotheenergyromthatuelcyclewillbecomingoutintheormocharged particles. I youhavea direct conversion system,thenyoureideallysuitedtousethesetypesousionuels,someowhichareneutron-ree.Sointhelongterm,reallylongterm,usioncanaimtowardbeingaboutthemostidealsystemyoucanthinko,intermsoitsabilitytogenerateen -ergyromaninexhaustibleuelsource.Soi you really want to take a look

downthecentury,sotospeak,thatpo-tentialexiststhere.Itsimplyisnotcredi-bletodoitwithatokamak.Theeldlinesdontgooutothesysteminawaythatwould allowdirect conversion. Its justnotcredibletome.

HighBetaValuewiththeATMAnotherengineeringaspectotheaxi-

symmetricsystemis,asisshowninthegasdynamictrapexperimentsinRussia,theso-calledbetavalue,orratiooplas-mapressure to theconningmagnetic

pressure,whichcanbeveryhigh.Betavalueshavegoneashighas60percentinthatexperiment.Typicallyinatokamak,itsabout10percent.Thepowerdensityincreaseswiththeourthpowerobeta.So,beingabletoachievethathighabetavaluemakesahugedierence.What Im talking about concerning

thatourthpowervariationopowerden-sitywithbeta,isthattheplasmapressure

PPPL

Insidealargetokamak.Thetokamakgeometryismorecomplexthananaxisymmetriclinearsystem,becauseotheshapeothemagnetcoils.Also,theinteriorpartsareexposedtoneutronfuxes.ThisisthePDXtokamakatPrinceton,constructedin1978.

Stuart Lewis/EIRNS

Amajoradvantageotheaxisymmetricsystemisthatitcandirectlygenerateanelec-triccurrentathigheciency.Withadvancedusionuelcycles,whichareneutron-ree,thiscouldbeanidealsystemorsupplyingelectricpower.Thetokamakgeom-etrydoesnotallowordirectconversion.


5/17


isproportionaltothesquareothemagneticeldandtothesquareobeta,thepressureotheplasma.Andthepressuresquarediswhatgivesyouthepowerden-sity.Inotherwords,theparticledensitysquaredisthe

ourthpowerothebetaparameter.Soasarasutili-zation o themagnetic elds or connement, youhaveaourthpowerothedierencebetween10per-centand50percent,inyouravor,romanengineer-

ingstandpoint,withtheATMascomparedtoatoka-mak....ThereareotherusesotheATMwhicharebeing

considered,awholespectrumouses.Oneothemisrelated,inacertainsense,withtheworkbeingdoneinlasershereattheLaboratory.Thatis,itisproposedtoutilizetheusionneutronsromtheD-T[deuteri-um-tritium]reactiontoimpactthespenturaniumuelandintheprocessgetenergyromit.Energeticneu-tronscandothis.Youdonthavetoutilizeachainre-actionatall.Youcanalsocreateasituationwhereyoureburn-

inguptheradioactiveproductsromthereactions,

whichmeanslessradioactivewaste.

Question:Youretalkingaboutahybridssion/u-sionreactor.Yes,ahybridsystem.Andthen,ocourse,thedirectuseorit

issimplyincineratingradioactivessionproducts,whichisan -otherpossibility.Usethe14-MeVneutronstotransmutethera-dioactiveproductsromssionreactorsintonon-radioactiveorast-decayingradioactivematerials.Thesearesecondaryuses;ocourse,mymaininterestisthelong-termuseousionpower,butIjustwanttomentionthehybridconcept.

EnergyIstheUltimateRawMaterialQuestion:Ithinktheusiontorchideaisrelatedtotheincin-

erationouseduel.Justtobeabletominegarbageorrockwouldbeextremelyuseul.Yes.Andbytheway,thereisaquoteromaverywisescien-

tist,themanwhowasthedirectoroOakRidgeNationalLabo-ratoryseveralyearsago,AlvinWeinberg.Inaspeech,hesaidsomethingwhichIvereallythoughtabout,somethingthatwasveryperceptive,andIlltellyouwhyIthinkthatisthecase.Hisremarkwas,Energyistheultimaterawmaterial.Andtherea-sonthathewassoprescientonthisisthatinthelongterm,mankind isessentiallygoing tohave to recycle thingscom-pletely.Yousimplycannotcontinuetousethegarbagedumpyoucantcontinueto throwawayvaluablematerials,alumi-num,copper,whathaveyou;thesearenotlimitlessresources.

Andwhatittakestorecyclethesematerials,thatisenergy.Iyouhaveenergyavailable,youcandoit.Youcandoitby

chemicalprocesses,whathaveyou,butitalwaystakesenergytodoit.Andso,whatWeinbergmeantwas,thatweshouldtakealong-termviewoasustainablesociety.Mankindisgoingtohavetouseenergytoreprocessessentialmaterials,whichhavebeenusedinthepast,intoauseulorm.Andthatjusttakesplainenergy.Sothatswhyhemadetheremark.Thatswhy,iyoureallywanttotakeaviewdownthecentu-

ries,Ithinkthatusioniswhatsgoingtobeourprimaryenergy

sourceandwhatImeantinthattalk[seeaccompanyingacle],iswhatImveryseriousabout:Iyouhaveaninexhauibleuel,andessentially,oneoverylowcostandonethatuniversallyavailable,thepoliticalimplicationsothat,inapoitivesense,aregreat,reallysignicant.

Question:Icertainlyagree.Ithinkthequestionis,howdowgetthere?Howdowetakethesocietywehavenow,whichreallyananti-scienticcultureYes,Iknow

Question:Andturnitintothekindoorward-lookingscieticculturethatisnecessary,whereyoulookatprojectstermso50and100years,not2minutes.Well,Ithinkweremovinginthatdirectionwiththeprese

administration....But youreexactlyright.Howdowegetcreatethatmindset,particularlysincewehavethisthreatglobalwarminghangingoverus.Andthatsnottrivial.

Question:Thatsawholeotherdiscussion!Ourtemperatuhasactuallybeencoolingorthelasteightyears,andIdoreallythinkwehavethisproblemwithglobalwarming.Well,wehaveatleastsomesubsidiaryproblems,likeocea

acidity,andwhathaveyou.

WeNeedaBroadScienticPathQuestion:Perhaps,butiyouhavetheperspectivethatmanmindcansolveanyproblemthatcomesitsway,thenyoudoworryaboutit,andyoudontcutbackandsayweneedewpeople.Youmoveahead.Iagree.Ithinkitsasolvableproblem.Inanyevent,Ithinkth

pointis,youaskedaspecicquestion,andIcangiveyouanaswertoit.Itriedtosayitinmytalk,thatwehadgottenot

Fusion-fission

chamber

L

Ausion-ssionhybriddesignwoulduse14-MeVusionneutronstobuspenturaniumasuel,ortotransmutetheradioactivessionproducintonon-radioactiveorshorter-livedelements.

ThisistheLLNLdesignorausion-ssionhybridusingalaser-usisystem.Theusionneutronshitasubcriticalssionblanket,generatiadditionalenergy.Theblanketcouldbecomposedodepleteduranium

unreprocessedspentuel,naturaluraniumorthorium,orssionprodu(likeplutonium-239)thatareseparatedoutoreprocessedspentnucaeruel.


6/17


pathwhen the tokamak took over.Thepathwe had beore in usion researchwasabroadscienticpath,andmyanal-ogy towhathappened is, whatwouldhappentocancerresearchitherewasadictumthatweshouldonlyworkonche-motherapyandorgetalltheresto thisstuinmedicine.Thatsallyoureallowedtoworkon.

Question:Ah,well, thats almostwhatweve got now with cancer research.Thatwouldbeverybad,yes.What Im gettingat is, that usion is

such an important topic, and involvesquestionsoanimportantscienticna-ture that youd better understand, thatyoumustmaintainasucientbreadthotheprogram.Youdontsay,Iknowwhattheansweris,andthisiswhatyouvegottodo,bygosh.But thatswhatshap-pened.ThatswhatItriedtosayinthe

talkhadhappened.Iwasntpoor-mouth-ingthetokamakperse,Iwassayingthatthe by-product o that policy, like theside-eects that can occur with somenewmedicines,isthatconcentrationonthe tokamak has had side eects thathavebeenharmultousionresearch.Andso,whatwecandoaboutit,andwithoutevenahuge

expenditureomoney,istoreinvigoratethebreadthotheu-sionprogram.Letmanyfowersbloom,sotospeak.Imeanre-allytotakeaseriouslookatotherapproaches,andthatwillbringin brightideasromyoungpeople.Theylookat usionnowandsay,okay,thetokamak,10yearsromnow,wellknow

iitsgoingtoworkornot.Andtheyllgobacktoschoolandstudysomethingelse,insteadosaying,Gosh,Ihadthisideaorusion,andwherecanIworkonit?

Question:Ithinkwevegottenawayromthatapproach,notjustintheusionprogram,butitsawayolookingatascien-

ticproblemthatwedontreallyhave

anymore,andcertainlynottotheextentthatitsnecessary.Post:Well, thereneeds to besome-

thing like the John Kennedy statementabouttheMoon.

Question:Yes,IthinkthatApolloideaisvery important. FDRhad that idea, asImsureyourememberthepowerohisideas,andwhathewasabletodowiththe TVA, which wasnt an overnightcost-eective type program; it waslooking50 to100years inthe uture,

whichiswhatwehavetodo.Sure,yes.Iagreewithyou.Thatsba-

sicallyoptimistic.Whatweneedtodois nd ways o having the innovativesideohumanitybeingavored.

Question:Andtohavethepolicymakersseehowthisistheonlywaytogettheeconomygoing,justastheApolloPro-

T2 monitoringand containment

Shipping andreceiving

Gas analysisand inventory

Pumpingsystem

Hydride storage

H,D,T &impurities

Tritiatedwater

Purification andtritium recovery

H,D,T

Impurities

Effluenttreatment

Stack

H, D

Isotopeseparation

Experiments

LANL

Fusionueltheheavyisotopesohydrogeninseawaterisvirtuallyinexhaustible.HereaschematicotheTritiumSystemsTestAssemblyacility(TSTA)atLosAlamosNationalLaboratory.TheTSTAwasdedicatedtodeveloping,demonstrating,andinte-

gratingtechnologiesrelatedtothedeuterium-tritiumuelcycleorlarge-scaleusionreactorsystems.Theacilitywaswasuniqueinthatitcontainedallothesystemsre-quiredtoprocessusionuel,sizedatull-scale,andullyintegratedoracompletetritium-processingloop.

Thesiteoperatedrom1984to1999,whenitwasshutdown,atertheDOEdeter-minedthattheTSTAmissionhadbeencompleted.

NASA

Helium-3isanotherpotentialusionuel.He-3,adecayproductotritium,israreonEarth,butcanbeoundingreaterquantityontheMoon.Here,anartistsconceptionominingontheMoon. (Text continues on p. 43.)


7/17


ManyPathstoFusionPower

Korea National Fusion Research

KoreasKSTARusionreactorattheNationalFusionResearchInstituteinDaejeon,whichreacheditsrstplasmaonJuly15,2008.Iteaturesullysuperconductivemagnets.

Sandia National Laboratory 1068

SandiasZ-pinchmachineduringitsrenovationpro-cess.Itshugeconduitsocusamassiveelectricalcur-rentonatargetthesizeoaspoolothread.TheZ-pinchgetsitsnameromthelargecurrentpassingintheverticaldirectiontheZdirectionincylindricalgeometrywhichcreatesamagneticeldthatpinch-estogethertheionsothinwiresthatserveaselectri-calconductorsuntilthecurrentvaporizesthem.

ORNL

Anartistsdrawingo anElmo BumpyTorususion

powerplant.TheEBTusessteady-stateelectroncyclo-tronresonanceheatingtoproduceasteady-stateplas-mainacurrent-reegeometry.Thedesigneaturesahybridmagnetictrapormedbyaseriesotoroidallyconnected simple mirrors.Operatedat Oak RidgeNational Laboratory in the early 1980s, the EBTselectronconnementagreedwiththeoreticalpredic-tions.Theprogramwasabandonedin1985.

Japan National Institute for Fusion Science

JapansLargeHelicalDevice(LHD)projectinvolvedconstructiono theworlds largestsuperconductinghelicaldevice,whichusesaheliotronmagneticeld,developedinJapan.Toobtainusion-plasmaconne-mentinasteady-statemachine,theLHDusessuper-conductingcoilsandplasmaheatingsystems

Carlos de Hoyos

The plasma ocus usion device,created by Winston Bostick andVictorioNardiattheStevensInsti-tute oTechnology, in Hoboken,N.J.Bostick developed the basictheoryotheplasmaocus,show-ing that energy is concentratedintotinyhot-spotsorplasmoids,

coherentstructuresomagnetizedplasma.Theseorce-reestructurescarrycurrent.


8/17


gramputback,conservatively,$10orevery$1thatwas invested in it, usion would domuchmorethanthat.Andadvancednuclearwould.Youget a transormative capability or the wholeeconomy,orthewholesociety.TheU.S.isinaverygoodpositiontodothis.SomethingIdidntmention,whichisrelevant:

HereattheLaboratory,wenowhavecomputation-alpower,andwhenyoucombinethatcomputa-tional powerwith the relative simplicity o theATM,youhavesomethingwhichcouldbesimu-lated inexquisitedetail,inmyopinion,onacomputer.Notthatyouwouldntdoexperiments,butthatyouwouldhaveamuchrmercorrelationbetweenexperimentandtheory,be-causeyoucouldsayinadvance,thisiswhatImgoingtosee,sotospeak.Thecombinationhasbeenusedinothertechnologicalareas,

asaverypowerultool,oneleap-roggingcomputation,lead-ingoneintoanexperimentandtheexperimentleadingtonewcomputation,andsoorth,andtherebyspeedingupthewhole

process.

TheShutDownoFusionResearchQuestion:AtertheLivermoreLaboratorybuilttheMFTF,theMirrorFusionTestFacilityitwasshutdown.Idontremem-bertheyearitwasshutdown,butareanypiecesothatstillaround?No,itwasliterallycutupintopiecesandsalvaged.Theres

nothinglet.

Question:Idontrecallexactlythecircumstances,butcanyoubriefysaywhathappened?Yes,thecircumstanceswerethattheU.S.usionprogramwas

fyinghighasaresultothe1970soilcrisis.Wegotextraund-ing,andtherewasacallornewideas.Therewasanambitiouscall,anambitiousprogramhereattheLaboratorywhenthetan-demmirrorwasinvented,toexplorethatconceptasastaspos-sible.Andtherewasauthorizationputthroughorthisexperi-ment,eventhoughitwouldbeveryexpensive.MFTFwasbuilt,andthen,alloasudden,interestinusion

researchcollapsedpoliticallyinusionandtheusionbudgetwascut.Butthenationalusiondirectorate,orwhateverrea-son,decidedthatthatwasasignaltocenterdownononeap-proach, rather than a signal to cut back but still maintainbreadth.Sothey,bydictumsaid,therewouldbenosupportoranythingotherthanthetokamakinthiscountry.Thatwasnotjustacasualty,butitwasadictum.Sothats

whathappened.

Question:Whatyearwasthat?

LLNL

DickPost:ThereneedstobesomethingliketheJohnKennedystatementaboutthe Moon.Here,Postteaching.

LLNL

Dick Post showing visitors at Livermore theTandem Mirror Experiment(TMX),thereactorthatprecededthelargerMFTF.


9/17


Late1980s,asIremember.

Question:Alotootherprogramssueredthesameateatthatsametime.Thatsright.ItwasamajorpolicydecisionwhichIthink,in

retrospect,wasjustplainwrong.Butunortunately,therewasalsokind oabandwagoneect.The same thing happenedworldwide.TheU.S.didit,soothersdidit.Itwasarealband-wagoneect.TherewereonlyacoupleoholdoutstheJapa-nesewiththeirGamma-10TandemMirrorexperiment,andtheRussiansatNovosibirskalsohungontothemirroridea.[GershItskovich]BudkertheinstituteisnamedaterhimwastheRussianinventorothemirrormachine,orexample.Andtheyhavedone,onaverytinyscalenancially,somebeautiulex-

perimentalworkthere,andhavecontinuedinthatwork.So,themirrorconceptdidntcompletelydisappearinthe

world,butiyoulookatthescienticpaperspresentedattheinternationalscienticmeetingsandIdidthisorwritingupahistoryoplasmaphysicsorareview;youmightliketolookatthatorun.Itwasoraseriesobooksonthehistoryophysicsinthe20thCentury.Ididatabulationothenumberopapersontokamaksandrelatedthingsonmirrorsovertheperiod,andtheresacolossalcollapseopapersonmirrorsaboutthetimethatthishappened.Youdontevenseethewordmirrorma -

chine in a present-day IA(International Atomic EnerAgency) meeting, nothing btokamaksorpossiblystellators.

Question: I know thatweported theMFTF closure,bourlastextensivecoverage

themirrormachinewasattheightotheprogram.IwroteaNuclear Fusions

vey article back in that timthattriedtocollectallotmirrorstu.Iyouhaventsethearticle,youmightjusttaklookatit....ItsthewholeissoNuclear Fusionitwassualongarticle,theymadeittwholeissue.

Question: So, where are w

nowwithyourATMidea?Yhad mentioned that theresgroupdiscussingit.Well, ater the worksho

whichisactuallyundedbytDOE,DmitriRyutovsuggestthatwehave whathecallsmirrororum,whichhasbemeeting regularlymeetiinquotes,becauseitsbyphoprimarily. Participants mapresentations, and send thviewgraphsbeorehand,soo

erparticipantswillknowwhattheyare,orsomeothemare

aTVlink,sothattheycanseetheviewgraphs.Therehavebeenaseriesopapersonvariousaspects.Ih

tomissthelastmeeting,whichwasareportbyTomSimonenhistriptoChinaandtoNovosibirsk.Inhispaper,heciteddepthwhattheyaredoingatNovosibirskinmirrors,camebaandreportedonit.Itssurprisingthenumberoparticipantstheorum;Dmitriissuesalistowhoattended,andherembe20peopleacrossthecountrywhowereinterestedTexMIT,someoneatPrinceton,UniversityoMaryland.Allgetonthemeetingandtossintheirtwobitsworth.Soitsaveryormalthing,buttheresclearinteresthereinthecountry.

Question:DoyouhaveaspecicproposalortheU.S.Oc

oFusionatDOE,orinstance,togoaheadwith?Manyspecicproposalshavebeensubmitted,butnone

themhavebeenhonored.Theresnopresentone,butIthinthatwillhappenperhaps.Ithinkthenearestthingtoitisanucomingmeetingwhichisonneutronsourcesormaterialstuies.Thatisapossibleuseomirrorsystemsasaneutronsourtodomaterialstudiesorthetokamak.

Question:Thatsironic....Yes,ironic.Imnotawarethatitsgonetoaullproposaly

LLNL

TheMFTFinconstruction,1981.Thereactorwasullycompleted,butitwasshutdownbeoreitcouldbeginoperating,andthendismantled,andsoldorscrap.

Thereactorvesselandstructuresweigh8millionpounds,including3millionpoundsosu-perconductingmagnetswhicharecooledbyliquidheliumto4.5Caboveabsolutezero,toconneaullyionizedplasmaodeuterium(heavyhydrogen)atmorethan100millionde-grees.AsLLNLdescribedit,ThisexperimentincludesthecoolestlargebodyomaterialtocontainthehottestgasonEarthinlargeamountsatabout8timesthetemperatureothesuraceotheSun.


10/17


buttherehavebeensuchproposalsmadeinthepast.YoumightliketohaveaconversationwithDmitriRyutov.HeshereattheLab.AndTomSimonenwouldbeaverynesourceoryoutotalkto.HeslivinginBerkeleynow....

MagneticLevitationQuestion:Idliketoswitchromtheu-sionsubjecttothemaglevInductrack.MyhusbandandayoungriendbuiltasmallmodelmaglevInductrack in ourgarage,andheremindedmeothiswhenwetalkedaboutinterviewingyou.CanyoutellushowyougotinvolvedwiththeInductrack,andwhatyouseeasits

uture?Well, way back in the 1990s, and

muchearlierinthe1970s,mysonandIworkedonfywheelenergystorage,andwewroteaScientic Americanarticlein1973onwhatwewerethinkingabout.ThiswasquiteoutsidetheLabwork.Andthenwetoyedwithlicensingthepatentsthatwegot,andthatwasnotaverysuc-cessul enterprise. So, I didnt doany-thingonfywheelsormaybe10years,butlateron,therewasaninterestattheLab in reviving such work, so we

launchedaprogramwithintheLabtode-velopfywheels.As part o that investigation, I was

workingonpassivemagnetic bearings,andsowecameupwithsomeideasorapassivemagneticbearing.Butiyousitdown and look at a passive magneticbearingwhichinthiscasewasacircu -larHalbacharrayandlookattheseto

conductorswithwhichitsinteractive,andiinyourmindyouunrollthisthingintoafattrack,thenyouvegottheInductrackmaglevsystem,identically.Oneisrolledupintoacircle,andtheotheroneislaidoutfat.AndsoIhadthisidea,andIwenttoJohnHolzrichterhere,

whowasrunningaLaboratoryDirectedResearchandDevel-opmentProgram(LDRD)attheLab.ThisLDRDprogramwassetupbyCongresssothatadirectorothenationallaboratoriescouldtakeacertainpercentageothebudgetanddevoteittointernalsupportorresearchintonewideas.Itseitherdonebydivisionsortheresalsoanindividualwaytodoit.Youcansub-

Teruji Cho, University of Tsukuba Plasma Research Center

TheGamma10TandemMirroratTsukubaUniversity.Japanhaskeptthemirrorconceptaliveinthisongoingexperiment.TheGamma10is27meterslong,withlargeendtanks.

TheRussiansalsoarepursuingthemirroridea.Seep.34oraphoto.

Figure3SCHEMATICOFTHEMFTFREACTOR

Acutawayviewothelargetandemmirrormagneticusionreactor.Inthiscon-guration,theMFTFhasahighmagneticeldaxicelloneitherendo12sole-noidcoils.Itincludesionheatinginthecentralcellbyradiorequency,16su-perconductingtrimcoils,andpumpingwithahighenergybeamandmagneticelddritpumps.Themainmagnetcoilsystemincludes26largesupercon-ductingcoilswithamaximummagneticeldstrengtho120,000gaussatthecenterotheouteraxicellcoil.

Figure4GAMMA10MAGNETGEOMETRY

TheaxisymmetricgeometryinJapansGamma10Tan-demMirror.Itispoweredbyioncyclotronresonantre-quencyandElectronCyclotronHeating.

(Text continues on p. 47.)


11/17


LaserFusion:YesWeCanJohnNuckolls,directoremerituso LawrenceLivermore

National Laboratory, hasproposed a 10-year strategy orachievinglaserusion,whichhesaidcouldbeaccomplishedwith10percentoPresidentObamas$150-billionproject-edenergyprogram.ThecontentsoNuckollssproposalad-

dressesissuesosciencenotwell-knowntotodaysgeneralpublic,butwhichshouldbebetterknown.Inlaserusion,atinytargetodeuterium,sometimescom-

binedwithtritium,iscompressedbyashockwavewhichisproducedbyocussedlaserbeams.Theshockcausesthedeuterium,anaturallyoccurringisotopeohydrogenpres-entinseawater,andtritiumtocombine,orminganucleusoheliumandaneutron.Themassotheresultingheliumnu-cleusislessthanthecomponentnuclei,andthemassdier-enceisreleasedasenergy,accordingtotheamousequationE=mc2.Theenergyreleaseperusionisseveraltimesgreat-erthanthatproducedbythessionoauraniumnucleus,whichismillionsotimesgreaterthantheenergyreleased

byburningoamoleculeooilornaturalgas.Theheatou-sionenergycanthusdriveelectricalturbineswithargreaterecacythananyknownpowersource,andcanalsobeuti-lizedinadeviceknownastheusiontorch,tobreakdownraworeandevengarbageintoitsconstituentelements.Dr.Nuckolls,wholedresearchonlaserusionatthena-

tionallaboratoryormanyyears,proposedourstepstou-sionpower:(1)buildanecienthigh-averagepowerlasermodule,a

actoryorproducinglasertargets,andausionchamber;(2)buildasurged,heatcapacityinertialusionenergy

system;(3)buildausionengine;(4)buildausionpowerplant.

InertialConnementMethodsFusionenergybylaserignition,knownmoregenerallyas

inertialconnement,hasalreadybeenrepeatedlydemon-strated,andwasoneotheleadingpathsbeingpursuedwhenthenationalusionenergyprogramwaseectivelydisman-tledinthe1980s.Nuckollswasaddressingthemeansneededtodevelopalaboratoryproo-o-principledemonstrationintoacommerciallyworkableenergygenerationproject.Inertialconnementproductionou-

sionenergyisrelatedtothemeansbywhicha hydrogenbomb isdetonated,andthusemergedromthenationallab-oratoriesasoneothepeaceulspin-os

omilitaryresearch.Inonemethodola-ser usion known as indirect drive, aclosedchamberknownasahohlraumisusedtoocusthermalX-raysproducedbythelaserheating,whichinturncandrivethenuclearusion.Indirect drive hohlraum targets are

used to simulate thermonuclearweap-onstests.Akeytothetechniqueinvolves

understandingthesingularitywhichoccursuponormationoashockwave.Sovietresearchintheeldwasstimulatedbystudyotheamouspaperbythe19thCenturymathematicalphysicistBernhardRiemann,whichhadpredictedtheappear-anceosonicshockwavesdecadesbeoretheirexperimentalverication.Othermethodsoinertialconnementusiondonotre-

quirelasers.TheseincludetheZ-pinch,inwhichthevapor-izationonewiresbyanintenseelectricalcurrentcausesa

compressionothewire(Z-pinch)thatproducesX-rayswhichdrivetheusionothetarget.Inanothermethod,recentlypro-posedbyDr. FriedwardtWinterberg, thehigh-voltagedis-chargeoanearlytypeacceleratorknownasaMarxGenera-torproducesaverypowerulinstantaneousmagneticeldpressurewhichcompressesacone-shapeddeuterium-tritiumtarget,usinganingeniousgeometry.NuckollsmadehisYeswecanproposalattheannual

meeting o Fusion Power AssociatesheldinLivermore,Dec.3-4,2008.LyndonLaRouchehasbeenpromot-

ingeortstodevelopthermonuclearu-sionpowersincethe1970s.Hisenergy

policycallsorimmediatedeploymentonuclearpower,includingarapidgear-upothenew ourthgenerationhigh-temperaturereactors,expandedresearchanddevelopmentothermonuclearu-sionenergy,andbroadenedsupportorinvestigationintotheanomalousnucle-areectsimpliedbythephenomenonocoldusion. Laurence Hecht

LLNL

Constructionworkersinstallequipmentinsidethe10-meterdiametertargetchamberattheNationalIgnitionFacility.Thesphericalchamber,10metersindiameter,isconstructedoalu-

minumpanelscoveredinconcretethathasbeeninjectedwithborontoabsorbneutronsromtheusionreaction.Theholesinthetargetchamberpermitthelaserbeamstoenterthecham-berandprovideviewingportsorallothediagnostics.

LLNL

ArtistsrenderingoaNIFtargetpelletinsideahohlraumcapsule,withlaserbeamsenteringthroughopeningsoneitherend.Thebeamscompressandheatthetargettothenecessarycondi-tionsornuclearusiontooccur.


12/17


mitaproposalasanindividual,workingwithotherindividuals,totryoutanewidea.So,ItookthisInductrackideaDmitriRyu-

tovhelpedmewiththetheoryoitandsub-mitteditasanLDRDproposal,andweactuallygot a substantialamount omoneyI orgethowmuchtobuildalargerscalemodeloit,andtestit.Ourmodelactuallyworkedverywell.And

we reportedourwork at scientic meetings.NASApeoplewereatthemeetings,andtheyhadaprojectcalledMag-Launch,whichisthelaunchingorocketsbymaglevmethods,inor-dertoavoiddoublestaging.SotheygaveusaverysubstantialcontracttobuildasmallmodeltodemonstrateatechnologythatmightbeusedinMag-Launch.Webuiltthemodelandweop-eratedit,butthentheirbudgetwascut,sowehadtotakethemodelapart,andshipitbacktoFlorida,orsomeuniversitytoputtogetherandtryitintheuture.But,whilethemodelwasworking,General

Atomics had received a substantial contractromtheFederalTransportationAdministrationtodevelopagenericurbanmaglevsystem.GAhad looked at the Japanese superconductingsystem, and theGerman system,Transrapid.Andtheydecidedthatneitherothemwasre-

allysuitableeconomicallyorotherwiseoranurbansystem.SotheycameupandlookedatourInductrack,andadopted

theidea.Followingthatwevehadaseriesocontractsorsev-eralyearsnowwithGA.Wehelpedthemwiththemagneticsoit.Weactuallybuiltalittlemodelto testthelaminatedtrackideahereattheLab,andwegotaveryclosecorrelationwiththeoryandexperimentonthat.SowevehadanaliationwithGAsincetheirmaglevprogramstarted.Wereamemberothe

team o engineering companies in PennsylvaniaGeneralAtomicsandtheLaboratory.AndGAhasnow,asyouknow,builtaull-scaletesttrack.Andmostrecentlytheybuiltabrandnewchassisusinganewmagneticsdesignthatweprovidedorthem.Itworksverywell,andtheyarehopingtobeenroutetobuildingademonstrationmaglevsystemattheUniversityoCaliorniainPennsylvania(!).

Figure6HALBACHARRAYONAMAGLEVTRACK

PostsideawastounrollaHalbacharrayomagnetsintoafattrack,orusewithamaglevtrain.

Motion of train car

Levitation circuits

Halbach array Magnetic field lines cancel

Orientationof magnet

Magneticfield linescombine

Figure5THEFLYWHEELBATTERY

TheLLNLfywheelbattery,developedbyDickPost,isahigh-techversionoanancientconcept:usingarotatingwheeltostorekineticenergy,asinapotterswheel.Here,theenergyisstoredinarotormadeoahightechbermaterialthatspinsaboveamagneticbearingatabout40,000to50,000revolutionsperminute.Thefywheelisusedorthebulkstorageoelectricity.

Posts complement to the fywheel, an electrostaticgenerator/motor,isuseulorgeneratingelectricity.

LLNLTheLivermoremembersotheInductrackteam:(standing,romlet)J.RaySmith,LouannTung,RichardPost,DonPodesta,WilliamKent,andEdwardCook;(kneeling,romlet)JoelMartinez-FriasandDmitriRyutov.


13/17


Question:Yes,thenameisincongruous.

Itsironic.TheyalsodidastudyoradoptinganotherormoourInductrack,aimedatheavyloadsorcargotransport,thatis,containercargotransportintheLosAngelesportarea,wheretheyarenowusingdieseltruckstohaulthecontainersinland,andtheyhaveaveryseriouspollutionproblem.Itsalsoanex -pensivewaytotransportthecontainers.Itcouldbereplacedbyamaglevsystemwithnopollutionandalotlessenergyuse.Idontknowwhetherthatprojectwillbeundedornot,butGAdidaverygoodstudyinwhichwecooperatedandwereabletocomeupwitharedesigno themagneticsor theInductrackthatmadeitsuitableorveryhighloads.

Question:Whatisthedierencebetweenthehighloadandthepassengersystem?

ItsamatterothedesignotheHalbacharrays,howtheyarecongured.Theyareconguredin suchawaythatwewereabletouseatrackwhichdidnothavetobecanti-levered.Itwouldlayfatonapieceoconcrete,sothatitwouldabsorbthehighloads.Wewereabletodothis,atthesametime,bykeepingthelossesveryvery low.Sothemagnetswereredesigned,basically the magnetic conguration was rede-signedtoaccomplishtheresult.

Question:ItseemstomethattheInductrackandmaglevingeneralhavesueredthesameateasusion.Itsawonderulidea,itscertainlytheway

togoortheuture,andithasntbeenundedinthiscountry.Thatsright.Ithinkthatmightbechanging.There

maybemorereceptionnow.Bytheway,Ididntmentionthis,buteventhoughtheInductrackwasdevelopedoranurbansystem,itworksperectlywellathighspeed,andisthusagoodcandidateorhighspeedmaglevsystems.

Question:OurorganizationhasproposedaEur -

asianLand-Bridge,whichwouldgoromtheeastcoastoCnatoRotterdaminthewest,withanorthernandasoutheroute(largesectionsothishavealreadybeenbuilt),andwhavebeenurgingthegovernmentsinvolvedthatmaglevchosenortherailpartothis.Well,thereareseveraldierentmaglevsystems,butthe

ductrackissosimple,andalsoail-sae.

Question:Iknowromreadingwhatyouvewrittenonthithatitsalsoconsiderablycheaper,becauseyoudonthavet

supercoolthemagnets.Itcanbecheaper,thatscorrect.

Figure8INDUCTRACKFRONTENDOFVEHICLE

Illustrationotherontendoanurbanmaglevvehicle,showingthevehicleslevitation/propulsionmodule.DualHalbacharraysopermanentmagnetsarepositionedun-

derthetraincartoprovidethelevitatingorce.Source: LLNL

Figure7HALBACHARRAYONTHEINDUCTRACK

IllustrationoaHalbacharrayontheInductrackmaglev.

Source: General Atomics

L

The20-meter,scale-modeltesttrackusedtotesttheInductrackconceptLLNL.Thetestcartandelectricdrivecircuitareintheoreground.


14/17


Nowyoualsowantedtohearaboutenergystorage?Well,wererightinthemiddleotryingtolaunchanewgenerationofywheel-basedenergystoragesystemsaimedatbulkstor-age.Theormerworkwedidinthe1990swasaimedatanichemarketwhichconsistsoessentiallyuninterruptiblepowersup-plies.Inthesesystemsyouhavethemfoatingonthelinewhenthepowergoeso,andittakes15secondstostartyourdiesel

generators. So, the fywheelcomesupwithaburstopowerorthatperiodotime,untilthediesel can come on. Its highpowerorashorttime.However,thesolarandwind

power industry in particular,needsadierentkindoener-gystorage.Itneedssomethingwheretheycanslowlychargeitupduringaewhours,andthen, it can sittherechargeduntil later its used to deliver

power.Thiscreatesthepossi-bility o havingwhats calleddispatchable power romwind and solar systems. Itmeans that it could providepoweratanytimeotheday,independent o whether theSunisshiningornot,solongasyouhavestoredtheenergy.So,thereareseveralcompa -

niesinterestedinwhatwecallournew-generationfywheels.Andthenew-generationfywheelsaredierent,in thesense

thatweveabandonedtheelectromagneticgeneratorandaregoingtoamodiedormoelectrostaticgenerator,thepioneer-ingworkorwhichwasdonebyTrumpatMITin the1950s.However,wemodiedhisideastomaketheelectrostaticgen-eratormoresuitableorourpurpose.Thepointotheelectro-staticgeneratoristhatithasextremelylowparasiticlosses.Thatis,iitsjustsittingthere,nolosses.Ontheotherhand,iyouhaveanelectromagneticgenerator

withthe permanentmagnets, therearealwayseddy currentlossesandhysteresislossesgoingon,eventhoughitsnotdraw-inganypower.Soitsverydiculttoreducethoselosses.Andalso,electromagneticgeneratorsareusuallyveryheavy.Our

LLNL

TheGeneralAtomicsull-scaleInductracktestvehicleontherstsectionoitstesttrack.

LLNL

DickPostwithhiselectromechanicalbattery,aseaturedintheLLNLScience&TechnologyReview, April 1996. https://www.llnl.gov/str/pds/04_96.2.pd

Figure9TheGENERALATOMICSTESTTRACK

IllustrationotheInductrackmaglevtesttrack,showingmotorwindingsembeddedinthetrack.Thewindingsareusedwithalinearsynchronousmotortopowerandbrakethetrain.Traincarsrideonasuspensiontrackoladder-likeconstruction,whichconsistsocloselyspacedrungscomposedotightlypackedbundlesoinsulatedwire.

Whenthetrainstartstomove,themagnetsinduceelectri-calcurrentsinthetrackscircuitsthatproduceamagneticeld.Thismagneticeldrepelsthearray,thuslevitatingthetraincar2.5centimetersabovethetrack.
https://www.llnl.gov/str/pdfs/04_96.2.pdfhttps://www.llnl.gov/str/pdfs/04_96.2.pdfhttps://www.llnl.gov/str/pdfs/04_96.2.pdf


15/17


electrostaticgeneratorisverylight,andthathelps.

Question:Whatdoes it look like,andhowdoesitwork?Ours looks something like Trumps

butisadierentdesign.Trumpusedasystem that resembled two sets o anblades,oneothemstationary,onero-

tating,acingeachother.Soasyouro-tate onean blade,rst itmatchesupwiththeotheranbladeandtheelectri-calcapacityishigh.Whenitrotatestoanotchinbetween,wheretheplatesdontmatch, the electrical capacity is low.Andthatsallittakestomakeanelectro-staticgenerator.Itworks thisway:I you chargeany

condenserwithaxedamountochargeandthenyouvarythevalueothatcon-denser,thevoltagevariesinverselywiththecapacity.Inotherwords,chargedi-

videdbycapacityistheormula.Andsothe capacity isa unctiono time.Thevoltageacrossthecapacityisaunctiono time. So i its periodically varying,thenyouregoingtogenerateanAC-likewave orm. From this simple process,having the capacity increase and de-creasewithtime.Wevedonesomead-ditionalmodicationsoTrumpsdesigns,butthatsthebasicidea.Andsoyoutakethisfuctuatingvoltageandcoupleitout

throughcondenserstoa rectiersystem,andrectiyittoDCcurrent,andthentransorm theDCpower towhateveryouwant.Sotheideaistosimpliymatters,andreducethepara-

siticlosses.Inanelectrostaticgenerator,theinternallossesaessentiallyzero.Inafywheelsystem,itsimportanttominimizeinternalhe

losses,becauseitsveryhardtocarryawayheatinavacuu

Theelectrostaticgeneratorhasessentiallyzeroheatlossesternally,andtheonlyineciency thatsassociatedwithitwhateverineciencythereisintherecticationandpowelectronics, not in the generator.Whereas, electromagnegeneratorsalwayshavehysteresislossesandeddycurrentloses,internally.Andtheresheattobedissipated,oronethininternally....

Question:Youarestillcarryingoutwhatseemstometobemissioninlie.Yourecomingtoworkourdaysaweek,ata90.Asmywiesays,Fridaysyourretirementday.

Question:Butthatsgood!Weneedtogetmorepeoplelikyouintheyoungergenerations,togetthatkindospark.Well,Ireallydowanttoseesomethingcomeomyknow

edgeophysicsinmylietime,withsomeothesethingshavenohopethatusionwillbeinmylietime,butIthinkththeworkthatalltheusionpeoplehavedoneismoneyintbank,andusionpowerwillcometopass.ButitwouldbeallyniceitheInductrackortheenergystoragesystemsactallyhappenbeoreIkickthebucket.

Figure10THETRUMPDESIGNFORANELECTROSTATICGENERATOR

JohnTrumpsdesignoranelectrostaticgenerator.PostmodiedthepioneeringdesignoTrumptodevelopalightweightgeneratorwhichhasnoneotheeddycurrentandhysteresislossesoanelectromagneticgeneratorthatusesperma-nentmagnets.

In Trumps concept, as one an blade rotates and matches up with a station-ary blade, the electrical capacity is high; when it rotates to a place where theblades dont match, the electrical capacity is low. The periodic variability gener-ates a fuctuating voltage, which can be rectied to DC current.

LLNL

Inthisdevice,LLNL-designedHalbach-arraygeneratorsarein-corporatedinAFS-TrinityFlywheelmodules,producing350-kilowattsoutputrom25-centimeterdiameterrotors.


16/17


Question:Well,Ithinkthathumanbeingshaveimmortalityin

thesensethattheirideasliveon,andthattheeectiseltlongaterthepersonisgone.Therecertainlyaresomeoccasionswherethatistrue.Also,

whattheheck,IliketoworkonthethingsthatIthinkaregoingtohelpproblems.

Question:Thatsagoodthing.Youthtodaydontknowhow

thingswork.Theyareinthedigitalage.Theypressbuttons....Thatsaveryinterestingcomment.WhenIwasakid,12years

old,Iwasaradioham,andIhadtobuildallmyownstutransmitter, receiver, thewholeshmear.AndwhereI gotmypartswasgoingouttotheback,behindradiostores,wheretheydthrownoutoldradiosets.AndIpickedthemup,tookthepartsoutothem.

Question:Butthatsthewayyoulearn;thatgetsyougoingon

aproject,andIdontthinkthatmanyyouthhavethatexperi-encetoday.No,theydont.Mysonhasaveryinterestingobservation.My

sonSteveisaveryneengineer.HerunsalittlecompanynearLivermorethatbuildselectroniccontrollers orelectricvehi-cles.AndhiskidsareintheAthenianschool,averyneprivateschoolhereinthearea.Theschoolenteredtheroboticscon-test....Thisis thecontestorschoolswheretheygoandcompete

againstotherrobots,doingvariouscalled-outtasksandgames.Theyhadtobuildthesturomakitthatssuppliedtothem,plusmanuacturetheirownparts.SoStevehadtheschoolkidscometohisownhomeshoptodothebuilding.Andhesaidthat

thegirlsweremuchbetterthantheboys.Thegirlsreallylearntodothesethings.Theboysaresotiedupinvideogamesandsoorth,thattheyjustdidntknowwhattodo.Immakinganoverallgeneralization,whichisprobablynotcompletelytrue,buthecertainlynoticedthedierence.

Question:Thatsveryinteresting.Idoknowtheproblemothevideogames.Itslikeanaddictionthatkeepsthesechildrenoutorealityandoutotherealworld,thenutsandboltsohowthingswork.Youknowtinkeringissomewhatoa

lost art, except when its particularlypushed,asStevedidwiththesekidsand

robotics.Theydidabeautiuljob.(Theywon,actually.)

Question:WhattheYouthMovementisworking on, in small groups, is goingthroughthebasicexperimentsandworko Kepler, Gauss, Riemann, and otherscientists, and redoing them, just toknow what the thinking process was;thatsthewaytheyvebeenapproachingit.Thatswonderul.

Question:Were trying to spread thatideaandsoIthinkthisinterview,whichwell publishwith your talk,will givepeople some ideas about how you goaboutsolvingsomeotheseproblems.What impressedmewas themagneticbearing,andhowimportantthatcanbeinsomanyapplications.Yes,therearemanyapplications.They

areanessentialpartothenewfywheel

NASA

Amagneticbearingusesmagneticlevitationtosupportaloadinmovingmachinerywithoutanyphysicalcontact.MagneticbearingsareanessentialpartoPostsfywheelsystem.

LLNL

LivermoresUNIVACcomputer,onitslastrunin1959.TodaytheLabshigh-peror-mancecomputingcapabilityenhancesexperimentalwork,suchasthatortheATM,bypreviewingdesignresultsandpotentialproblems.


17/17


systemthatwehave.Andtheotherthing,justageneralcommentisandIthink

youvealreadysaidit,butImgoingtosayitagainbecauseitssoimportant:Itssuchanimportantthingtohaveacombinationocomputingandhardware,becausethedevilisinthedetails.Yougetsoberedbytheactthatwhenyouareactuallytryingtodosomething,youvegottoworkoutallthethingsthatyouhadntthoughto.Andtheresaverypowerulwayocoordinat-ingtheory,andcomputation,andexperimentbuttheexperi-

menthasgottobethere;itsanessentialpartoit.Andsowhatyousaidaminuteagoisexactlyright:Repeating

someotheseexperiments,becausetheactualdoingothem,andtheactualndingoutwhatswhat,isveryimportant.

Question:Thewholethinkingprocessthatgoeson....Ihadawonderulphysicsproessoringraduateschool,Pro-

essorHansen,whoisoneotheco-inventorsothelinearac-celeratoratStanordandalsooneothecoinventorsotheklys-tron[alinearbeamvacuumtube].Anyway,ProessorHansenhadwhathecalledamodernphysicslab,andoneotheex-perimentsIparticularlyremember,wasmeasuringthegravita-tionalconstant,andtheverycleverwayhediditwithatorsion

pendulumwithbigballsolead.Youhadatorsionpendulum,withtheballoleadhangingon

anarmsothatitcouldtorque.Andthenyouwouldbringupabigmassataparticulartime,andyouwouldleaveitthereoraparticulartime.Andthosetwomasseswouldattracteachothereversotinyabit,andmovethattorsionpendulum.Andsoyoutookthedataromthatandthencalculatedtheuniversalgravi -tationalconstant,andyoudarnwellbetterbewithin10per-cent.Thatwasamongtheverycleverexperimentsthatweredoneinthatlab.

Question:Thatsoundslikeanimportaactorinthetrajectoryoyourwholereer.I had somewonderul teachers, a

Hansenwasoneothem.Hediedabohalway throughmy thesis,whichwexperimental,andsoIhadtoshita theoryinadvertent punLeonaSchiwas the theorist, and sohalm

thesisisexperimental,andhalistheretical. That was a tragedy, Hansedeath,buttherewasaortunateconquenceoit....IknowIhaveverylittlebrainwhen

comestosomeareas.DmitriRyutovcrunringsaroundmeintheory.Imsorta unny hal-mixture, but anyway,works!

Question:Itsnotunnyitsveryuul.

FPA

RichardPostwithhisdaughter,MarkiePostRoss(let),andhiswie,Marylee,atthe90thbirthdaycelebrationhostedbyFusionPowerAssociates.

ForFurtherReadingR.F. Post, 2007. The Kinetic Stabilizer AxisymmetricTandem Mirror: A Review o Approaches to ItsImplementation, Fusion Science and Technology,Vol.51,No.2T,pp.112-117(Feb.)

R.F.Postetal.,2005.FusionScienceandTechnology,Vol.47,p.49.

R.F.Post,2000.Maglev:ANewApproach, ScienticAmerican(Jan.)R.F.Post,1999.FusionResearch:ThePastIsPrologue,in CurrentTrends in International Fusion Research:ProceedingsotheSecondSymposium,E.Panerella,

Ed. (Ottawa, Canada: National Research CouncilPress).

R.F. Post, 1999. Mirror-Based Fusion: Some PossibleNewDirections,TransactionsoFusionTechnology,Vol.35,p.40(Jan.)

R.F.Post,1997.OpenSystemsintheQuestorFusion,PlasmaPhysicsReports,Vol.23,p.756(Sept.)

R.F. Post and S.F. Post, 1973. Flywheels, ScienticAmerican(Dec.)

Documents

“A Fusion Pioneer Talks About Cold Fusion