9743 fl. SAGONI

The next speaker was D. Fuyane?— Correct. If you look at page 34 of your notes, is it

also correct to say that he also refers to the issue of reference hooks in Port ^li^abeth?— Yes.

And at page 34 he refers to Bantu Education?— Yes.

And he says that some people are going from door to door belling the people that Bantu Education is good. Is that rights-- Yes„

Then would you turn to page 38, omit a number of speakers and turn to page 38 where you have a note of a speaker "by the name of Mini, is that correct?— Yes.

Is that V. Mini?— W. Mini, the same as V.Mini. He refers to the establishment of the African

National Congress Youth League, is that right?— Yes. An J then at page 39 he talks of "the part that

the A.N.C.Y.L played In the Defiance Campaign, is that right?— Yes.

And he also talks ofthe part that the A.N.C. Y,L have to play in the Bantu Education Act Campaign, the campaign a gainst "P̂ ntr I'lucation?— Yes.

Would you "hen turn to page 4 0 of the notes, where he says that they are in the last struggle which is the boycott of the schools and"if we happen to win we shall be sure that we are nearing the dawn of freedom"! Is that right?— Yes.

And he refers to the decision to boycott schools on the 1st April, which wns at a later stage postponed?— Yea.

Will you then refer to page 41 where he tails about the duty of the A.N.C. to teach children the condi-

9 74'4 N. SAGONI

tions in this country; have you got that?— Yea. Just follow from there. "The A.N.C.Y.L. is

here to teach the children about the conditions of this country, and not to allow the Dutch people to tell them that Hintsa was a thief, ?/hereas when they arrived here they had no cattle nor wives. There is nobody who can tell me how they got children". Then he refers to .... I had better read it - - "In America the Jews and Ita-lians are not classified as Americans, but are called Negroes. In South Africa the Hugonots and Jews were swallowed up by the Nat Party in order that the number of Europeans should increase, and if they don't allow this they will be kicked. In Morocco when blood was shed it was later decided to talk about peace, in order to avoid further bloodshed." Is that right?— Yes,

"Here in South Africa we are pleased with half a loaf and suggest that our people in other countries are dying on account of the struggle for freedom." Then you have a note 'He then referred to the deportation of Gwentshe and Umgwzi; is that correct?— Yes.

And he continues: "If a person dies for something good will never be forgotten in History. We read daily j and we know what heppened . . .."?— We read history daily.

"We read history daily and we know what happened to the Israelites when they left Egypt. Whether we are born under oppression and fed by the Capitalists of America and England does not mean that we are Americans or English. When we get freedom all will be welcome, even those who are against us, and we must not hate those who betrayed us. The dark cloud is hanging over

9756. N. SAGONI

Africa and if we can get "?— If we can't get up. "If we can't get up and save it Africa is going to

be destroyed. The uplift and downfall of Afria lies on us. The heroes of this country died trying to save this country, for instance Tshaka, Makana and others. Tshaka had visions about the arrival of Europeans in this country before they came. If we had altogether fought against the Bantu Education Act today there would be no school commit-teees If we can't get what our forefathers had we must now look for an alternative. Since I started adressing you I do not see anybody going to the table to enroll as a member of the A .N.C.Y.L'." The next speajer was C. Mayekiso; is that correct?— Yes.

He said "The time is coming when the leaders will be amongst those sitting. /I'm not going to say much but I can tell you that the A.N.C. is the mother body, it has born the A.N.C..Y.L, and the A.N.C.Y.L. and volunteers - the struggle is advancing and as a result of that the Dutch people are deporting the leaders." Is that right9 -Yea.

Then he refers to the boycott of the schools?—Yes. Then a resolution is moved by Tshume, is that cor-

rect?— T Tshume. And he says, "We, the youth, under the auspices

of the A.N.C.Y.L DEClare from all over the country and world pledge to strive with all freedom bring people together with all youths until the democratic changes in the Freedom Charter have been won". Then he sets out what those are, is that correct?— Yes.

This meeting is referred to in the Policy Sche-dule at page 38. The next meeting, my lords, is that

9756. N. SAGONI

of the 18th September, 1955 . . . BEKKER J; The same day? MR. TRENGOVE: I'm sorry, my lord, the 16th

October, 1955. I hand you document marked G.598; have

you got that?— Yes. Are those notes of a meeting that you attended

on the 16th October, 1955?— Yes. Where was the meeting held?— At Magraki's

Yard, Veeplaats, Port Elizabeth. And there were about 200 people at that meeting,

is that correct?— Yes. According to your notes Machappa was chairman,

is that correct;?— Yes. BEKKER J; Who organised this meeting?-- The

African National Congress Youth League, my lord. MR. TRENGOVE: Machappa was the chairman, is that

correct?— Yes. Now at page 59 of your notes did he, in opening

the meeting say the following: "Africans, we open this meeting under the auspices of the A.N.E.Y.L, and I call upon all youth to bcco.™ members of the A.N.C.Y.L. We have gathered here on the day when we remember the heroes of this country who died on the 18th October, 1952". Is that correct?— Yes.

it correct that he said the following: "Sons and Daught-ers of this country, we have gathered here under the aus-pices of the A.N.C.Y.L and we remember the incident when Africans were shot dead by the DuttSh people at the New

Now after him the first speaker was Puyane?— Correct.

Will you refer to page 59 of your notes and is

974-7 9756. N. SAGONI

Brighton Railway Station on the 18th October, 1952. This is a sad day to us Africans. We know why we meet here at Veeplaats. There are women among us who were taken to gaol in 1952 on accouht of that incident. There are mothers who lost their sons and mourned for them. Today we see young children at our meetings and they are the people who will land on freedom". Is that right?—Yes.

Some people on that day went to see what was happening at the Railway Station on 18/10/1952, after having heard shots fired by the Dutch people." Is that right?— Yes.

Then the next speaker was W.Mate, is that right ? — Correct.

you have a note that he took over as chairman ? — Yes.

And he also says that the day is to commemorate the 18th October, 1952, w h e n A f r i c a n s w e r e a h o t d e a d > ifl

that correct?— Yes. And he refers to the presence of a certain

Wilson Neville ~Thc served 3 years in gaol as a result of that Riot". Is that right'— Yes.

And then he continues and says "In this country when we state the conditions under which we live we are called Communists. There is no nation who will free the Africans unless the Africans fight for freedom". Is that correct?— Yes.

Then he continues to deal with reference books and the attitude of the A.N.C. towards reference books?— Correct.

And also Bantu Education?— Yes. Which he soys the Government is implementing

9748 N. SAGONI

to destroy the African nation?— Correct. And that Yerwoerd is in Hitler's hoots?—Yes. In this respect. The next spekaer was L.Kepe,

is that right?— Yes. Now at page 62 b, Kepe tells his audience that

"I am prepared to address you on hatred", is that right?— Yes.

Then he continues to give what in his opinionis examples of the hatred that the white people talked the Africans?-- Correct.

At page 63b, have you got that?— Yes. He refers to this incident as part of his address

on hatred; He says "¥ou will remember again during 1952 when innocent Africans were shot dead. As we are here today it is necessary to hate bad things and love good things, and it is therefore dutybound to hate the family of those who hate us." Is that right?— Yes.

Then he said "When you visit any Dutchman's house you will find that they are keeping black dogs to frighten their children and we must te ep white dogs in our houses to frighten our children, telling them that there is a Dutchman. We must hate people who do bad things, is that right?— Yes.

Then he refers to the deportation of people by the Government,,and he continues at page 64 of the notes "It is necessary that we must record all that is taking place in this country because one day when we get into the New Africa we shall put those who do bad for trial and be convicted by the people. I as Vice-Secretary of the A.N.C.Y.L, it is my duty to appeal to the parents to send their children to join the A.N.C.Y.L". Is that cor-

9756. N. SAGONI

reot?— Yes. Then there is a comment by the chairman Mate

who says "You've heard the important points referred to by the last speaker. He refers to a raid of their offices by the police when documents were removed. The next speaker is W. Mini, is that correct?— Yes.

And he also refers to the fact that this day is a sad day remembering the incidents of the 18th October 1952 took place on the occasion of hatred caused by the Dutch people. Is that right?— Yes.

Then he gives his version of this incident where people were shot at the station on the 18th October. Is that right?— That is right.

Now turn to page 66 of your notes where he says "The A.N.C.Y.L have made a flag which shows Chaka's shield, assegai, knobkerrie, but it is not going to attack anybody, but alas for one who interferes with its deci-sion. When the freedom is achieved the A.N.C. will be the one to rule. We don't want a coward in the A.N.C.Y.L and you must join the A.N.C.Y.L. If there was any reason or sedition Swart would have been sentenced to death, because he spoke of having rivers in South Africa stream-ing of blood if Africans could get freedom." Ihen he refers to the deportation of Gwentshe and Lengisi and Monare, and he refers to the fact that freedom of move-ment is being affected by the issue of reference books, and then he continues have you got the passage "Are we prepared"?— Yes, I have it.

"Are we prepared to tolerate such things? The time has come that we must be united and tell the truth. We must remember the words of our ancesters and make

9750 N. SAGONI

use of them. Why can't we answer to the call? Come for-ward and take a lead in the struggle for freedom. It is long that some people have been talking about the politic al affairs in this country but that has proved a failure. Anything that deserves to be struck we shall do". Then he appealsmto the people to join the A.N.C.Y.L, is that correct?— Yes.

Then there is a comment by the chairman say-ing that the A.N.C.Y.L has a similar policy to that of The A.N.C, and the next speaker is W. Mkwayi?— Yes.

After referring to the boycott, an economic boycott he says at page 69, "This is a day of great im-portance", is that right?— Yes.

"This is a day of great importance to Africans because the blood of Africans was shed and Swart came personally to New Brighton.. When we leave this meeting I want all youth and volunteers to meet in front of Mathambeka's place. In this week's New Age all women appearing on the front page will he et Strydom and Donges on the 27th October, 1955, with their complaints." Then he asks his audience tc support New Age which will be one year old on Friday of that week. Is that correct?— Yes.

And he goes on and says "I as volunteer in chief discover that volunteers I've got are still cowards I told you that today I want 800 volunteers but I only got 100. You have seen in the newspaper that the Govern-ment is advertising that two Africans have been arrested for burning schools, and why are they being arrested since they burnt their own schools? It is long that we have been ̂ talking and I want action. Is that right?—

9751 N.SAGONI

Thatis correct. Then he concludes with a reference to the Bantu

Education Act and says that the Bantu Education is only good to produce detectives, and at Peddie there were only 102 children who were still attending schools before they were burnt down by God." Then the next speaker is Mayekiso. Is C. Mayekiso, is that correct?—*-Yes.

I want to read the next portion of his speech which please follow, starting at the beginning. "I want to remind you that a day of memory is important and today we remember the Africans who died on the 18/10/1952", Is that correct?— Yes.

Then he refers to the Defiance Campaign?— Yes, Then he referred to the volunteers who he saw

that morning who were carrying the flag, is that right Yes.

Then he referred to the fact that before "We went to gaol we went to the Korsten mountain to pray"?— Yea,

And he continues: "Tod^y I noticed that the people are remembering the day of 18/10/1952 when two Africans were accused of stealing paint. As a result of that many lives were lost. I nlso remember on 26/6/52 when the Defiance Campaign started. We must also remem-ber G. Tshume and R. Mhlaba who were the leaders in the Defiance Campaign. R. Matshe, Dr. Jungwe were also banned. There were many other leaders who were banned. A.P. Mate is appearing on the 18th October, 1955, for attending the gathering. P. Matemela is also banned from attending a gathering for a period of two years. It is better to die fighting standing on your feet rather

9752 N. SAGONI

than to die kneeling." Then he says, "I'm not going to say anything about the Bantu Education. If we had means we would select the 18th October as a holiday." Then he continues to deal with the Bantu Education Act?— Yes.

The speaker after him was T Tshume, is that cor-rect?— Yes

And T.Tshume says that he is not only going to read resolutions, he makes a statement at page 73 of your notes "I say the Government is bringing forth dogs because Government servants killed the African children on account of a tin of paint. Today I remember sons of Africa in the North who are demanding freedom." Then he moves cer-tain resolutions, is that right?— Yes.

I want to refer to portions of those resolutions; would you just follow. The resolution says "On the 18th October, 1952, 11 people died, and they lost their lives for the price of a tin of paint. It shows that African life is cheap to the Capitalists. Today we remember the heroes who died. We shall say of it was not through supre-j macy, apartheid and madness there would have been no such jrragedy. A European pol-'.ceman when given a revolver plays with the trigger when he sees a black man". Then he says "Today we remember those leaders who met their deaths while they were fighting for equality. We remember Hintsa Mankana, Chaka, Dingaan, Mashabalala, etc., who died fight-ing for freedom. We continue from where they left and we shall continue until freedom is achieved. That is what Verwoerd's education aimed at. This education teaches our children about headmen, Police, and it teaches our chil-dren how good labour bureau is, and blesses all oppression. We say this is the last stage in our struggle and it msans

9756. N. SAGONI

death or life to the Africans." Is that correct?— 1 To the African people.

Yes, to the African people. Then he refers to the enslaving education and he concludes the resolution by saying "We hereby resolve that we as workers shall support the Trade Unions so that we can crush our enemy 5 which is the ruling class". Is that correct?- Yes.

And you have a note that the meeting adopted the resolution?— Yes.

Then there was an annoucement made by Mini that they elected T.Tshume as the Cape Provincial President io of the A.N.C.Y.L, is that right?— Yes.

And that the A.N.C.Y.L was going to meet, and he was not going to tell them when and where, is that right?— Yes.

That, my lords, concludes the evidence on this 15 meeting.

MR. BERRANGE; May I add a couple of things to it. my lords?

RUMPFF J: Yes. MR. 3ERRAI7GE' ^ini. on page 2 of the trans- 20

cript,refers to the fact that on this day, the 18th October, 1952, a European escaped death through an African - - those are the words. "On that day 18th October, 1952, one European escaped death through an African"; that was when they were referring to the 25

Riot, my lord. Also, my lords,that portion in the reso-lution where the resolution read as follows, "A Europeam policeman when given a revolver plays with the trigger when he sees a black man". Then this meeting appeals to the Government of this country that there must be peace 30

9754 N. SAGONI

and humanity in front of the law". Thereafter my friend went on reading without including that sentence, my lords.

RUMPFF J: Yes. MR. TRENGOVE; My lords, this HE eting is set

forward in the Police Schedule at pages 28 and 38, and also in Schedule "C" at pages 58, 61 and 68.

(COURT ADJOURNED UNTIL 24/2/1960.

9755 24/2/1^60 N. SAGONI

MR. THEN GOVE.: My lords, accused No.16 is still indisposed.

The next meeting, my lords, is a meeting of the 11th December, 1955. I hand to the witness a document marked G.599. Do those notes relate to a meeting that you attended on the 11th December, 1955?— Yes.

And where was the meeting held?— At Malarki Square, Durban Road, Korsten, Port Elizabeth.

About 1,000 people present, is that correot?— Correct.

And who was the chairman at this meeting?— The chairman was T. Tshume.

What organisation held this meeting?— The African National Congress.

And you say T. Tshume was the chairman?— Yes. Just before the meeting started you made a note

of what you observed there and you have a note relating to a person by the name of Myakeso; he was doing some-thing at the meeting, is that right?— Yes.

What was he doing?— He was distributing the Preedom Charter forms.

He distributed signature forms, Preedom Charter signature forms, according to your notes; is that cor-rect?— Yes.

Now, T.Tshume then started speaking, is that right?— Yes.

And is it correct that he said that he was opening this meeting which was being held under the auspices of five organisations, is that right?—Yes.

The A.N.C., the P.A.I.C., THE S.A. C.P.O., the S.A.C.B. and the Trade Unions?— Correct.

9756. N. SAGONI

And he said the meeting was called by the Action Working Committee of the Freedom Charter, Eastern Cape ? — Correct.

And is it correct that he then referred to forms - signature forms for the Freedom Charter, containing five pictures, picturesof five people, namely Luthuli, Huddlestone, Dadoo and Tshume, is that right?— Yes.

And John Alobane representing the Coloured people ?—Correct.

He then called upon the people to put their signatures to this freedom charter, is that right?-- Yes,

Now the next speaker was W. Mini?— Yes. And he also spoke in support, of the Freedom

Charter?— Correct. And at page 8 of your notes you have a note that

he told the audience that when they sign the forms they are binding themselves to the decisions taken at the Congress of the People in Johannesburg?— Correct.

Now, will you then turn tohis speech at page 11. He says "In this country there is a law that is going to destroy us unless wc are firm in our struggle", is that right?— Yes.

"And one preacher reading from the bible said that the path to heaven is narrow and the road to free-dom is like that, and there are machine guns and de-tectives intimidating people. The Xosa proverb says 'One man's meat is another man's poison". We have heard that the people in other countries have been shot dead when demanding freedom, but they obtained it. We will remember that we are a disgrace to other countries. In America the non-Europeans fought for

9757 N.SAGONI

their freedom and obtained it, and their freedom is not dignified, because we in South Africa don't fight for our freedom. In Kenya the African people are suffer-ing because there are a few who are fighting for freedom, and others have rifles fighting their own people". Is that right?— Yes.

"History repeats itself. You will remember that an apartheid is dangerous to us, and we must note that when we fight for freedom we must be united. Anyone who wants a copy of the Freedom Charter must pay Id." Is that correct?— Yes.

Then he continues to talk about Bantu Education, is that right?— Yes.

Then there is a comment by the chairman, have you got that?— Yes.

Just check and follow as I read: "Before I call the next speaker I will be failing in my duties as a chairman not to say that in Johannesburg a number of more than 500 people gathered waiting for the leader of the people, "Moses Kotano, Son of Africa". Have you got that?— Yes.

"I think the Government authorities were worried when they saw this sight because even Dr. Malan never had such a welcome, Wo were not present in Johannesburg and we must also welcome him." Is that right?—Yes.

Then the next speaker was N.J.Fletcher, page 17 of your notes, is that right?— Yes.

And who acted as interpreter for him?— C. Mayekiso.

And he started off talking about the Liberation Movement, is that the right?- Yes.

9756. N. SAGONI

And the struggle for liberation?— Yes. Then at the conclusion of his speech, page 22

of your notes, there is a comment by the chairman, in which he says that the last speaker represented the S.A. COngress of Democrats, is that correct?— Yes.

Then you can omit the next speaker and turn to page 26 of your notes. Who was the speaker there?— C. Mayekiso.

And if you look at page 26 of your notes did he refer to the fact that there are four organisa-tions represented there, that they are fighting against oppression and he says "We are today repeating what took place at Kliptown at the C.O.P, when the Freedom Charter was born and we want to confirm it", is that right?— Yes.

Then he talks about the people going to the table to give their signatures; he also says they may be scared of the detectives in doing so, but he invites them to sign; then he continues at page 28 of your

notes and says "What is embodied in the Freedom Charter that the country mrst bo divided equally to all is true, we have read the history of other countries, e.g. China and that they became free because they were united." Is that correct?— Yes,

Then he continues to talk about the Freedom Charter and he also calls for volunteers?— Correct.

Then there is a comment by the chairman, is

that correct?— Yes. At page 31 of your notes where he sayss-

"Chief Luthuli said he wanted 50,000 volunteers"?— 50,000 Freedom volunteers.

9756. N. SAGONI

Yes, "He wanted 50,000 freedom volunteers. We 1 can't get our freedom without these volunteers. Another important thing is Trade Unions", is that correct?—Yes.

My lords, there are two further speakers; we have discovered that our transcript of the rest of these notes has omitted a fairly large portion. My lords, 5 could I ask the witness to read either from his notes or could I do so?

RUMPEF J: Yes, MR. TRENGOVE: If you turn to page 32 of your

notes the speaker who spoke after Mayekiso, who was he 10 ? — L. Kepe.

He spoke in English, is that correct?— Yes, And his speech was interpreted "by C.Mayekiso,

is that correct?— Yes. Have you got page 34 of your notes?— Yes. 1 5

Have you got the portion starting "I would he failing in my duty"?— "I would have failed in my duty.

Yes, just read from there and read slowly and carefully?— "I would have failed in my duty as a servant of people not to give my greetings to the ^q

youths. I would send my greetings to Moscow youths

who after the defeat of Hitler formed the World's Federation Youth* I thought it was a dream when Stalin said !Hitlers are horn every day and die1.

We say the same in South Africa, that Malans are horn and die every day. It was not a mistake that four organisations met at Kliptown and we must endorse our signatures on the Freedom Charter."

Now immediately after that there is a comment

9756. N. SAGONI

by the chairman, is that correct?— Yes. What did the chairman say?—"In 1957 World

Federation of Youths will meet at Moscow". Then the next speaker after that, who was he?—

W. Nkwayi. Is that at page 36 of your notes?— Yes. Now at page 38 of your notes does Nkwayi refer

to the Freedom Charter?— Yes. What does he say?— "In the Freedom Charter it

is embodied that there shall be work and security, and if we were faithful members that would happen. At Uiten-hage Chief Luthuli said we must be paid £1 per day."

Then he goes on to say what Luthuli said at Ui-tenhage?— Yes.

Then will you turn to page 41 of yournotes, and read the portion marked there?— "If one retaliates that is not an offence6 In Natal three Africans and t2o European police killed a person * The Dutch people have done bad things in this country. How can we for-give the Dutch people killing people."

Yes. Leave the rest of that speech and turn to the resolutions at page 45. Have you got that?— Yes, I have.

Is it correct that there was a resolution that the meeting resolves that we country men and women pledge ourselves to fight together until the changes embodied in the Freedom Charter are won. We shall fight side by side until liberty is achieved." Is that correct?— Correct.

And the meeting adopted that resolution?— Yes.

9756. N. SAGONI

That concludes the evidence on this meeting, my lords. The next meeting is a meeting of the 15th January 1956. I hand the witness document marked G. 603. This refers to a meeting that you attended on the 15th January, 1956, is that correct?— Yes.

Where was this meeting held?— It was held at the Rendesvous Hall, Highfield Road, Korsten, Port Eli-zabeth.

And do you know under which organisation's auspices this meeting was held?— The African National Congress Volunteer Committee.

Now this was held in the Rendesvous Hall, is that correct?— Yes.

When you made your notes were you actually in the hall?— No.

Did you actually see the speakers as they spoke ? — I could identify some of the speakers but not all.

You didn't actually see them?— No. You say you identified some of them?— By their

voices, yes, my lords. And were you listening to what was being said

under a window in a room adjoining the hall?— Yes, And could you hear what was said?— Yes. And you say that you identified speakers by

their voices?— Yes. If you were not certain of the identity what

did you do?— I put down 'unknown'. And of the speakers where you gave the names

you say you were satisfied of their identity by their voices?— Correct.

Could you hear what they were saying?— Yes.

9762. N.SAGQNI

Did you have any difficulty in following what was being said?— Sometimes when there was a noise in-side one could hardly hear what was being said.

And the things that you did hear, that you did note down you heard?— Those were the things I was sure that I heard.

Now, according to your notes can you say also whether or not speakers were announced by the chairman?— That I could not say. I don't remember.

Unless your notes show it?— Yes. Now, who acted as chairman at this meeting?—

W. Mkwayi. And who was the first speaker that you heard

and that you identified by his voice?— B. Ndimba, Have you got page 1 of your notes?— Yes. Can you say if this is correct: "As from to-

day the group leaders must do their best to organise more volunteers. As we here can be shot dead by the Dutch people. Mr. Swart may change our campaign. If South Africa can't be free we must do all we could to achieve freedom". Is that right?— Yes.

Follow carefully. "China is now free and the oppressors failed. The volunteers must not resign until freedom is achieved.J In Kenya there are Africans who are members of the Parliament. The people think that the A.N.C. is dead when they don't see the volun-teers. All the branches should start forming up the street committees.j In Kenya the Africans were not allowed to carry knives, but today they are fighting against the Capitalists. You must wait for instruc-

| tions from your Commander in Chief; a man must not

< F

9756. N. SAGONI

blame the leader in case the blood flows. In South Afri-ca we are still tools. The volunteers must talk to people. The free country in overseas do not realise that we want freedom, because we still follow people like Hlaula", is that correct?— Yes.

Do you know Hlaula?— Yes, Who is he?— He was a minister of religion. And what was his attitude towards the A,N,C.

do you know?— That I couldn't tell you; I have only heard.

I see, you don't know of your own knowledge?-No.

Right. "Let us show that we want freedom so that other countries can come to our assistance. In South Africa there are no soldiers and we are the only soldiers that can defend South Africa. We are created by God and this is our country, and it is a lie that the Europeans were sent by God to bring civilisa-

»

tion into South Africa. I don't suggest that we must j chase away Europeans, but we want to stay with them peacefully. The volunteers must obey their leaders Afrika!" Isthat correct?— Yes„

Then there was a comment by the chairman, is that right?— Yes.

He said that he noticed three people in the audience who were not volunteers, is that right?—Yes.

Then the next speaker that you have, who is that?— L. Mancoko.

How did you know it was he who spoke?— I recognised his voice.

Will you follow if I read from what you've

9756. N. SAGONI

taken down as having been said by him?— Yes. "What is a volunteer? A volunteeer is a person

who obeys the instructions given by the leader. I would like to say a few words. The volunteers are expected to go from door to door preaching the Congress to the peo-ple." Is that right?— Yes.

"If we want freedom - - if we are united free-dom could be achieved. In China the volunteers did their work to free their country. I notice that there are volunteers who don't obey their group leaders, and they don't abide with the A.N.C. Constitution. The people must know that the colunteers are controlled by the A.N.C. as we are gathered here we must know that we are volunteers so we know there are no spies amongst us. We must not go back biting others. Unity is strength." Is that correct?— Yes.

The next speaker?— W. Mkwayi. Just follow on page 9» the first portion of

his speech: "Yesterday I was here at Korsten and I met volunteers. When I spoke to them I noticed they were pleased. A volunteer has got more work to do in the organisation. The present Government is like a wizard and it hates people who speak the truth. I wonder if you have seen Swart's bills and he wants to stop the uniform of the volunteers. This uniform of ours is cheap and we don't want to wear expensive clothes. I want all the volunteers to wear uniform at all times'.' Is that right?— Yes.

Then he refers to a meeting of volunteers to be held at East London. Then will you turn to page II where he referred to reference books and their

9765 N. SAG-ON I

decision not to accept them. Is that correct?—Yes, Then at page 13 he refers to the passes and

says women shall never carry passes, is that correct?— Yes.

And then he speaks about Bantu Edudation which is aimed at dividing the people, is that correct?—Yes.

Then at page 14 he says "There are volunteers who want to use violence but the policy of the A.N.C. is against that. During the Riot in 1952 some men ran away from Port Elizabeth. The Zulus fought with Euro-peans to defend their country. We as volunteers must not a mistake which happened in 1952. When the time comes for war the volunteers must be determined to fight, but I don't say that it is going to happen, and all we do must be on an alert." Is that correct?— Yes.

"I am pleased to see this meeting is well attended by the volunteers. We all know that Chief Luthuli said that he wanted 50,000 volunteers and we must have them. The Womene League is improving and

there are 23 lady teachers who are members. We must organise more members for the A.N.C. In 1956 we are not going to have spies and they are going to become members of the A.N.C. I am pleased to see that we are still volunteers, and members of the A.N.C. fight-ing for freedom. A person is meant to die and the present has instructed the police to shoot the people".

s Is that correct?— Yes.

Then the next is an unknown speaker, is that correct?— Yes.

9756. N. SAGONI

You've got inyour notes 'an unknown native male'; why have you got that?— I could not recognise his voice.

Then after him who spoke, at page 18 of your notes ? — Mini.

Did you also recognise him by his voice?— I did. Now, he at page 18 said "All the volunteers must

take an oath"j is that correct?— Yes. Then he proceeds to give the oath of the volun-

teers, is that correct?—Yes. My lords, I'm not reading it again. Sagoni, you

read the oath of the volunteers as read in Court yester-day, is that correct?^— Yes.

And what you took down there in these cotes as being the oath of the volunteers, is that substantially the same as the oath that was read out yesterday?—Yes.

Then finally at page 24 you also have a ,note-~\ that Nkampene was called upon to collect mor.ey to pay for the hiring of the hall, is that correct?—Yes,

What Nkampene is that?— The one I referred to as an accusedo

He also spoke?-- Yes. That, my lords, concludes the evidence of this

meeting. MR. BERRANGE: Could I ask my learned friend

to read in just one thing, my lords, in Mkwayi's speech?

RUMPFE J: Yes. MR. BERRANGE: The portion where he is alleged

to have said 'there are volunteers who want to use violence but the policy of the A.N.C.is against that". Eight lines before that, discussing the question of

9756. N. SAGONI

passes he says: "If we could all become members of 1 Trade Unions and the A.N.C. we can govern this coun-try in two weeks time".

ME. BERRANGE: My lords, the passage reads: After having referred to the decision not to accept the reference books at page 13 of your notes,Sagoni, 5 "It is the duty of the women to fight against passes In England the workers are having better privileges, If we could all become members of Trade Unions and the A.N.C, we can govern this country in two weekg time. We must now renew our membership cards for \0 1956. If the street committees were formed the Government would not know what we are doing. The Government is employing more policemen; we as workers don't fight for our rights," Then he continues with women not having to carry passes, my lords. 15

The next meeting, my lords, relates to a meeting of the 31st January, 1956. I hand the wit-ness document marked G.604. Now, on this occasion who was hold this meeting?— The African National Congress. 20

And where was this meeting held In the Rendesvous Hall, Highfield Road, Korsten, Port Elizabeth.

And you were not actually in the hall but in a room adjoining the hall?— Yes. 25

And you were listening to the proceedings

through a window?— Yes. Could you see who the people were who par-

ticipated in this_meeting?— No. And those names that you have here of people ^

9756. N. SAGONI

who are alleged to have participated, how did you know - where did youget these names from?— I recgnised them bytheir voices.

Who was the first speaker?— The chairman was C. Mayekiso.

If you look at page 2 of your notes is it correct that he said "This is the yearly meeting and in this meeting you are going to be given a report of the Annual A.N.C. Cohferenoe held at Bloemfontein?— Yes.

This report is a written statement which was pre-

pared by the secretary?— Yes. MR. BERRANGE: Before my learned friend goes on, my lords, I would

10

like something added MR. TRENGOVE: Yes, "I wish you success in all

decisions you have taken this year as we must achieve freedom in your lifetime. Our struggle is passives ^ During the last three years we have seen people who have been faithful and unfaithful in the struggle if?— In their struggle.

Yes, "in their struggle. As from 1952 the De-fiance Campaign of unjusS laws was started, and after 2 0

the defiance we felt confident that freedom was to be achieved. The freedom struggle by the Africans has been extended to all over the world and now we have coloured people also fighting for freedom. If my learned friend would indicate how far he wishes me to read, my lords?

MR. BERRANGE: That's all, thank you. MR. TRENGOVE: Then you have a note at page 7.

"The Executive Committee reports: given by T.Tshume"; have you got that?— Yes. 30

9756. N. SAGONI

You then have a note of what T.Tshume said?— Yes, correct.

Then would you turn to page 15 of your notes - part of T.Tshume's speech. Is it correct that he then said "Luthuli has been re-elected as President-General. C. Mayekiso, T. Mgotha, T.Tshume, Prof. Z.K.Matthews, Bev.Calata, all from the Cape, were elected as members af the National Executive Committee,," Correct?— That's correct.

Just following upon that does he also say that the Womens League Conference was held and L.Ngoyi was the President?— Yes.

And he mentions the fact that she was Pre-sident again?— Yes.

Now, will you turn from there to page 27 of your notes. You have a note there, just before T. Tshume spoke, is that correct - at page 25 of your notes?— Yes.

Just before he spoke you say "C.Myakeso informed the audience that there was going to be a break for 15 minutes", and then you have a note that at 3.45 p.m. the meeting commenccd again?— Yes.

Then you have T.Tshume gave the branch executive report, and said the report had been print-ed in booklets and he would mention a few points,

is that correct?— Yes. Then at page 27, still Tshume making this

part of his speech, he says that the members of the Executive were instructed to read New Age andlsizwe, is that right?— Yes.

9756. N. SAGONI

Would you then turn to the last portion of your notes, at page 46. You have a note there 'Election of office bearers'?— Yes.

Where did that election of office bearers take place?— In the same hall.

And did you make a note of the office bearers who were elected, according to the announcement that you heard?— Yes.

And who was elected as chairman?— C.Mayekiso. And as Vice-chairman?— W. Kupe And secretary?— T. Tshume. And as Treasurer?— W. Mkwayi, And among the Committee Members have you got the

names of D. Fuyane?— Yes. And D.Tshume?— Yes. And L. Mancoko?— Yes. Now would you refer to your notes, Sagoni, and

would it be correct to say that according to the voices which you identified W, Mkwayi also spoke at this meeting ? — Yes, page 24 of my notes.

And is it also correct, if you carry on further in

your notes, that you have a note that W.Mini spoke at this meeting?— Correct,,

Page what of your notes?— Page 40. My lords, that concludes the evidence on that

meeting. We have not read in this meeting, my lords, because we don't rely on anything, but a report of this meeting has been handed in as an exhibit and a trans-lation has been provided in the Xosa language. The relative document is J.J.19, my lords. The next meet-ing, my lords, is the 5th February, 1956. I hand the

9756. N. SAGONI

witness document marked G.607. You have this document before you, Sagoni?— Yes,

It relates to a meeting on the 5th February, 1956?— Yes.

What orgajisation held this meeting?— S.A. Congress of Trade Unionse

And where was it held?— Malasky's Square, Port Elizabetha

Now, will you look at your notes; you made a note of various speakers and the only one I wish to refer you to is the note you have at page, the speaker at page 17. Who was that?— W. Mkwayi.

Is that the one you have already referred to ? — Yes.

Now, the speech he makes is on petitions being signed against the Industrial Conciliation Bill and other matters affecting uhe workers, and then at page 21 at the conclusion of his speech he says the following: "Before I stop my speech I appeal to the audience to bring organisers and we shall teach them. We want peo-ple who are going to do this job must be like a volun-teer who will expect no pay. We are not like the Government to employ soldiers* We do not promise them

pay but to wear off their shoes. We promise volunteers blood and tears." Is that correct?— Yes.

That concludes his speech, and that concludes the evidence on this meeting, my lords. Now, my lords, there are a number of meetings. We said at the outset that the Crown was merely relying on the fact that these were meetings of the African National Congress and that certain accused and co-conspirators spoke at

9756. N. SAGONI

those meetings or acted as chairmen at the meetings of the African National Congress. We are not relying on

the contents of what was said, my lords. Now, Sagoni, I want to hand you the following

documents marked as follows: Exhibit G.499 which relates to a meeting of the African National Congress held at Yeeplaats, Port Elizabeth, on the 13th December, 1953. Is that correct?— Yes.

The next meeting, Document G.500, is that correct?— Yes.

What meeting is that?— African National Con-gress, Korsten, Port Elizabeth.

On what date?— On the 3rd January, 1954. The next document you have is G.501, is that

correct?—Yes. And does that relate to an African National

Congress meeting held on the 10th January at Veeplaats ? — Correct.

The next docuient that you have there is mark-ed G.511, correct?— Yes.

Does that relate to an African National Con-gress Meeting on the 29th May, 1954?— Yes.

Where was it held?— T.C.White Hall, New Brighton, Port Elizabeth.

The next document that you have is G. 513, is that correct?—Yes.

What meeting was that?— African National Congress meeting.

Where?— Held at Korstein, Port Elizabeth. On what date?— On the 20thJune, 1954. The next is G.514, is that right?— Yes.

9773 N.SAGONI

What meetingwas that?— African National Congress. Where?— At Korsten, Port Elizabeth. On what date?— On the 24th October, 1954. The next is G.517, is that correct?—Yes. To what does that relate?— Congress of the Peo-

- pie Conference. Where was thatE— At the ..Hall., on the

7/11/1954. The next is G. 521?—Yes. To what does that relate?— African National Gon»

gress held at T.C.White Hall, Port Elizabeth, on the 21st December 1954.

The next is G.526, is that correct?— Yes, What meeting?— African National Congress Meet*

ing held at Magati's Yard, Port Elizabeth, on the 13th February 1955.

The next is G.534, is that correct?— Yes. What meeting was that?— African National Con-

gress Prayer Meeting, held at Port Elizabeth, on the 3rd April, 1955.

The next is G.577?— Yes, African National Con-gress held on the 27/5/55 at Maklasky's Yard, Port Elizabeth.

The next is G.584?— I haven't got G.584. Just leave that one. G.591?— African National

Congress meeting held at Maklusky's Yard, Port Elizabeth, on the 31st/7/l955.

And the next is G.592?— African National Con-gress Meeting held at Port Elizabeth on the 7/8/55.

Now, Sagoni, these are meetings which you attend-ed and you made notes of who the speakers were?—Yes.

9756. N. SAGONI

You made notes of who the chairman of the meetings was?— Yes.

And you made notes of what they said, is that cor-rect?—Yes.

And you have compared these notes with this sche-dule which sets out against the names of the various people which of those meetings were attended by them and whether they spoke, and/or whether they acted as chair» men, is that correct?— Yes.

And that schedule is correct?— Yes. You are satisfied about that?— Yes. My lords, the Defence has been provided with a

schedule and I think my learned friend agreed that the schedule is correct, a correct extract from the notes.

MR. BERRANGE: We haven't checked it but I take it to be correct, my lords.

RUMPEE J: Yes. MR. BERRANGE: I could read out the meetings

against the names, my lords, of the various accused, or they could be typed into the record.

MR. BERRANGE: We accept it, my lords, subject to checking it at a later stage.

MR. TRENGOVE: It will thenbe Exhibit No.2 my lords. The details on this schedule will then be typed into the record as being evidence submitted by the Crown of the attendance by the people mentioned in the schedule at the various meetings in the capaci-ties shown in the schedule. I hand that in, my lords.

BEKKER J: Are you finished with the meetings in respect of which you rely on the speeches?

MR. TRENGOVE: Yes, my lord.

9756. N. SAGONI

Sagoni, you have throughout your evidence re-ferred to various speakers who spoke at certain meetings ? — Correct.

One of the names that you mentioned is the name of C. Mayekiso?— Yes.

Now whenever you've mentioned the name of C, Myakiso as having spoken at a meeting, was it or was it not the same person throughout?— It was.

The same person?— Yes. And is that the Myakiso that you identified as

an accused in this case?— Yes. You also mentioned the name of S,Nkalepe?*-Yes# Asa person who spoke on various occasio*a?—Yes, Was that Nkalepe the same person throughout?—

Yes. And was that the person you identified as a*

accused, accused No.23?— Yes. You also mentioned the name of W. Mkwayi

as a person who spoke at various meetings?— Yes. Was it or was it not always the same person?—

Always the same person. And is that person the W. Mkwayi that you

identified?— Yes. Then another name that you mentioned was

B. Ndimba?— Yes. Was it also the same person that you mention-

ed throughout?— Yes. And was that the person you identified as

accused No.25?— Yes. And in the same way you mentioned the name of

J. Nkampene?— Yes.

I

9776. N.SAGONI

Was that the same person throughout?— Yes. 1 And was that the one you identified as accused

No.26?-- Yes. You've mentioned S. Ntsangane, as having spoken

on various occasions; was it the same person throughout ? — Yes. 5

Was that the person you identified as accused No. 27?— Yes.

And T. Tshume, do you remember mentioning him?»-Yes.

Was it the same person throughout, and the 10 person you identified as accused No.28?— Yes,

And does the same apply to the person you lden» tified as T. Tshunuhgwe?— Yes.

Now, then there are a number of other people who you mentioned as having spoken. You mentioned the name 15 of J,Gr. Matthews?-- Yes.

Can you tell the Court whether or not you iden-tified him as an accused at the Preparatory Examination ? — I did.

The next person you mentioned was R. Matshe as 20 having spoken at these meetings?— Yes.

Remember him?— Yes. Was the Matshe that you mentioned the same

person throughout?— Yes. And do you know whether or not he was an accused 25

at the Preparatory Examination?— He was not. The other name that you mentioned was B.Stuur-

man?— Yes. Did your references to B. Stuurman as a speaker

at the meetings refer to the same person throughout?— Yes.

9756. N. SAGONI

Do you know whether he was an accused at the Pre-paratory Examination?— He wasn't.

You also mentioned the name of J. Neri?— Yes. Is that the same person throughout?— Yes, You mentioned the name of Dr. Njongwe?— Yes, Do you know this Dr. Njongwe?— Yes. Was it a reference to the dame Dr.Njongwe through-

out?— Yes. Then you mentioned the name of J, Jack?*.^ Yes, Is it the same J. Jack throughout?— Yes, Do you know whether or not he was an accused at

the Preparatory Examination?— He was. And did you identify him?— Yes. Another speaker that you mentioned was l,Kepe

?-- Yes. Now, your various references to Kepe, we»e they

to the same person throughout?— Yes. And eas he an accused at the Preparatory Exami-

nation?— He was. Did you identify him?— Yes. You also mentioned the name of Z.K.Matthews?—

Yes. Do you know whether Z.K.Matthews was an accused

at the Preparatory Examination?— He was. Did you identify him there?— Yes. And A.J. Luthuli?— Yes. Was the person you referred to in your speech

as having spoken at Uitenhage, was he the same A.J. Luthuli that you identified at the Preparatory Exami-nation?— He was an accused hut I did not identify him.

I see. E. Matsumele?— Yes.

9756. N. SAGONI

What Masumele is this?— Florence Matsumele, i at times.

And where it was Florence Matsumele you men-tioned it?— Yes.

And do you know whether she was an accused at the Preparatory Examination?— She was. 5

Did you identify her there?— Yes. The next is P. Fuyane?— Yes. And on the occasions that his name was mentioned

by you was it with reference to the same person through-out?— Yes. 10

Was he an accused at the Preparatory ExaminatiQB ? — He was.

Lid you identify him there?— Yes. The next is T. Ngothe?— Yes. You mentioned him on a number of occasions; was 15

it the same person throughout?— Ifes. And was he an accused at the Preparatory Examina-

tion?— He was. Did you identify him there?— I did. Then you mentioned a person by the name of Mini; 20

at times you said W.Mini and on other occasions V.Mini ? — Yes.

Arethey two different persons?— It's the same person.

Do you know whether you referred to the same 25 person throughout whenever you mentioned the name of Mini?-- Yes.

Do you know whether this person was an accused at the Preparatory Examination?— He was.

And did you identify him there?— Yes. 30

< 9779 . N. SAGONI

The next name was E. Fuyandu (?)?— Yes,

This person you referred to was it the same person you mentioned throughout?— Yes.

Do you know whether or not he was an accused at the Preparatory Examination?— He was not.

The next is 17. Mate?— Yes. The W. Mathe that you referred to in your evidence,

is the person the same person you referred to throughout?— Yes.

Was this person an accused at the Preparatory Exa-mination?— He was.

And did you identify him?— Yes. Then the nextfc is B. Tshume?— Yes* Is this person known to you?— Yes. And your references to B. Tshume, did they refer

to the same person throughout?— Yes. The next is S. Vunga?— Yes. Do you know S. Vunga?— Yec. And do you. know whether or not this person was an

accused at the Preparatory Examination?— He was an accused. Did you identify him there?— Yes. And when you referred to Vunga was it always the

same person?— Yes . Does the same apply to E. Mafaxo?— Yes. Was Mafaxo an accused at the Preparatory Exami-

nation?— He was. And did you identify him?— No. You didn't?— I at no time gave evidence against

him there. Do you know him well?— I know him well.

10

15

20

25

30

9780. N. SACrONI

The rext is S. Sefali?— Yes. Does your reference to Sefali in the evidence you

gave always refer to the same person?— Yes. And does that also apply where you referred to a

person by the name of Tshuku?— Yes. Now you referred in your evidence to two people,

one by the name of W0M. Sisulu and the other by the name of R. Resha?— Yes.

And you said you knew them?— Yes. If you see them in Court will you be able to iden-

tify them?— Yes. And would you step down and do so please?— (Witness

identifies accused: Sisulu as No.19, and Resha as accused Ho .17).

That concludes the evidence of thiswitnsss, my lords.

MR. BERRANG-E: I wonder whether your lordships would allow me to indicate shortly the line which my cross examination will take. I don't propose, my lords, to do what has been done in the past, and that is to take each and every meeting referred to by this witness and traverse it again with the witness, except that in regard to seven meetings put in by the Crown I prefer to deal with them somewhat more thoroughly than my learned friend has done, plus two meetings that have not been put in by the Crowne Other than putting several questions of a general nature to the witness I thereafter propose meriy to read to the witness a series of extracts of speeches made by various speakers, giving the date, time a nd place and the name ofthe speaker, and allowing the witness in collaboration with the Crown thereafter to indicate

9781. N. SAGONI

whether that which I read has been accurate. I don't want him at this stage to refer to the speech every time I put an extract to him, because it's an enormous waste of time; I think it can be done better outside,

RUMPEF J: Yes. MR. BERRANGE; By adopting this method I think several

hours can be saved, my lords.

XXD. BY MR. BERRANGEi Sagoni, you've told their lordships that you were in the Security Branch since 1951, January 1951?— That's correct.

If you want to speak through an interpreter I have no objection?— (INTERPRETER)s The witness told me that he thought he could give his evidence quite well in Eng-lish; if I sit by and assist where necessary, my lords, it would be a saving of time.

During that time, Sagoni, you must have attended a great number of meetings of the organisations to which you have referred yesterday and to-day?— Yes.

Could you perhaps inform their lordships on an average how many meetings of that nature you attended every week?— Once a week.

On an average once a week?— Yes„ over the week ends. One meeting every week end.

So would one be correct in saying that since that time you've attended probably fifty or sixty meetings a year?— It's posa-ble.

Yes. And that was between 1951 and 1956 ? — No, not

not 1951. It could/be forty meetings a year. Well, if it was one a week, probably round about

fifty a year there are fifty two weete in the year you

10

15

20

25

30

1

9782 N.SAGONI

know?— It might be. And you remember that you gave evidence at the

Preparatory Examination in which you testified to more meetings than those which you have testified to in this Court?— I cannot say how many.

Anyway there were more, that's all I'm interested in?— I don't know whether it was more or less,

"Very wellc And in giving your evidence to-day and yesterday you have been referred to certain extracts from speeches made by the various speakers; that is so,is it not? Yes.

And what you have read out constitutes only a small fraction of what was said by all the speakers at each meet-ing?— Not on all occasions.

Well, you know, we can very easy look at the trans-cript to find it out; I'm suggesting to you that you read only a small portion of what all the speakers had to say at all the meetings?— As far as the extracts are concerned that I agree with.

RUMPFF J; I don't think he followed your ques-tion.

MR. BERRANGEs I don't think so either, my lord. I wonder if you would explain it.

RUMPFF J; The question was, that what you read out relative to the meetings here in this Court is only a small portion of what you actually wrote down in your notes as handed in.

MS. BERRANGE: I'm indebted to your lordship?— That is correct.

Now, I'm going to - - I have again drawn up a schedule, my lords, in round figures and it can be checked

Collection: 1956 Treason Trial Collection number: AD1812

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