8 ) 9 ) - WordPress.com · 2004. 6. 28. · 3 Christine Slonaker 2 36 89 4 Mary Wolfe 91 130 179 104 5 Linda Paulk 182 191 200 6 Pamela Smith 202 212 232 235 7 8 EXHIBITS IDENTIFIED

1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

2 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA

3

4 KEVIN COOPER, ) )

5 Petitioiner,) )

6 vs. ) )

7 JILL L. BROWN, ACTING WARDEN,) SAN QUENTIN STATE PRISON, )

8 ) Respondent. )

9 )

10

Case No. 04CV0656-H(LSP)

San Diego, California

Monday, June 28, 2004 10:00 a.m.

11 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

BEFORE THE HONORABLE MARILYN L. HUFF UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE

12 APPEARANCES:

13 For the Petitioner:

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

NORMAN C. HILE, ESQ. Orrick, Herrington

and Sutcliffe 400 Capitol Mall Suite 3000 Sacramento, California 95814 (916) 447-9200

DAVID T. ALEXANDER, ESQ. MBV Law 855 Front Street San Francisco, California

94111 (415) 781-4400

Proceedings recorded by electronic sound recordingi 25 transcript produced by transcription service.

Echo Reporting, Inc.

1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

2 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA

3

4 KEVIN COOPER, ) )

5 Petitioiner,) )

6 vs. ) )

7 JILL L. BROWN, ACTING WARDEN,) SAN QUENTIN STATE PRISON, )

8 ) Respondent. )

9 )

10

Case No. 04CV0656-H(LSP)

San Diego, California

Monday, June 28, 2004 10:00 a.m.

11 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

BEFORE THE HONORABLE MARILYN L. HUFF UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE

12 APPEARANCES:

13 For the Petitioner:

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

NORMAN C. HILE, ESQ. Orrick, Herrington

and Sutcliffe 400 Capitol Mall Suite 3000 Sacramento, California 95814 (916) 447-9200

DAVID T. ALEXANDER, ESQ. MBV Law 855 Front Street San Francisco, California

94111 (415) 781-4400

Proceedings recorded by electronic sound recordingi 25 transcript produced by transcription service.


1 APPEARANCES: (Cont' d. )

2 For the Respondent:

3

4

5

6 Transcript Ordered by:

7

8 Court Recorder:

9

10

11 Transcriber:

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

ii

HOLLY D. WILKENS, ESQ. ADRIANNE S. DENAULT, ESQ. Office of the Attorney General 110 West A Street, Suite 1100 San Diego, California

92101 (619) 645-2197

ADRIANNE S. DENAULT, ESQ.

Nancy Cablay United States District Court 940 Front Street San Diego, California 92101

Lorraine S. Caldwell Echo Reporting, Inc. 6336 Greenwich Drive Suite B San Diego, California 92122 (858) 453-7590


1 APPEARANCES: (Cont' d. )

2 For the Respondent:

3

4

5

6 Transcript Ordered by:

7

8 Court Recorder:

9

10

11 Transcriber:

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

ii

HOLLY D. WILKENS, ESQ. ADRIANNE S. DENAULT, ESQ. Office of the Attorney General 110 West A Street, Suite 1100 San Diego, California

92101 (619) 645-2197

ADRIANNE S. DENAULT, ESQ.

Nancy Cablay United States District Court 940 Front Street San Diego, California 92101

Lorraine S. Caldwell Echo Reporting, Inc. 6336 Greenwich Drive Suite B San Diego, California 92122 (858) 453-7590


iii

1 I N D E X

2 WITNESSES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS

3 Christine Slonaker 2 36 89

4 Mary Wolfe 91 130 179 104

5 Linda Paulk 182 191 200

6 Pamela Smith 202 212 232 235

7

8 EXHIBITS IDENTIFIED RECEIVED

9 Plaintiff's:

10 20 Declaration of Slonaker 2 35

11 21 6/10/83 interview of Paulk 196 231 and Smith

12 22 Interview of Smith 220 231

13 Defendant's:

14 JJJ-l photos of bar parking lot 12

15 thru JJJ-4

16 000-1 Declaration of Smith 202

17 RRR-l Map of area 145

18 SSS Diagram 20

19 SSS-l Drawing of inside of bar 106

20 SSS-2 Drawing of inside of bar 214

21 TTT-l Diagram by Wolfe 106

22 VVV Photograph 59

23 YYY-l Detective interview with 139 Wolfe

24 ZZZ Copy of Wolfe declaration 135

25


iii

1 I N D E X

2 WITNESSES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS

3 Christine Slonaker 2 36 89

4 Mary Wolfe 91 130 179 104

5 Linda Paulk 182 191 200

6 Pamela Smith 202 212 232 235

7

8 EXHIBITS IDENTIFIED RECEIVED

9 Plaintiff's:

10 20 Declaration of Slonaker 2 35

11 21 6/10/83 interview of Paulk 196 231 and Smith

12 22 Interview of Smith 220 231

13 Defendant's:

14 JJJ-l photos of bar parking lot 12

15 thru JJJ-4

16 000-1 Declaration of Smith 202

17 RRR-l Map of area 145

18 SSS Diagram 20

19 SSS-l Drawing of inside of bar 106

20 SSS-2 Drawing of inside of bar 214

21 TTT-l Diagram by Wolfe 106

22 VVV Photograph 59

23 YYY-l Detective interview with 139 Wolfe

24 ZZZ Copy of Wolfe declaration 135

25


1 SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA MONDAY, JUNE 28, 2004 10:00 A.M.

2 --000--

3 (Call to order of the Court.)

4 THE COURT: We're now ready for the Cooper matter.

5 You want to call --

6 THE CLERK: Number 10 on the calendar, 04CV-0656,

7 Cooper versus Coughnour, set for an evidentiary hearing

8 regarding habeas corpus.

9 THE COURT: Come forward. Good morning. You want

10 to state your appearances for the record?

11 MR. HILE: Good morning, your Honor. Norman Hile

12 of Orrick, Herrington and Sutcliffe for Petitioner Kevin

13 Cooper.

14 MR. ALEXANDER: David Alexander of MBV Law for

15 Petitioner Kevin Cooper. Good morning, your Honor.

16

17

THE COURT: Good morning.

MS. WILKENS: Good morning, your Honor. Holly

18 Wilkens, deputy attorney general, for the Respondent, with

19 Adrianne Denault, deputy attorney general, for the

20 Respondent.

21 THE COURT: I don't see Adrianne here yet.

22 MS. WILKENS: She was just here, your Honor.

23 THE COURT: She's coming. All right. Thank you.

24 We can proceed with the witness.

25 MR. HILE: Yes, your Honor. Petitioner calls

1


1 SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA MONDAY, JUNE 28, 2004 10:00 A.M.

2 --000--

3 (Call to order of the Court.)

4 THE COURT: We're now ready for the Cooper matter.

5 You want to call --

6 THE CLERK: Number 10 on the calendar, 04CV-0656,

7 Cooper versus Coughnour, set for an evidentiary hearing

8 regarding habeas corpus.

9 THE COURT: Come forward. Good morning. You want

10 to state your appearances for the record?

11 MR. HILE: Good morning, your Honor. Norman Hile

12 of Orrick, Herrington and Sutcliffe for Petitioner Kevin

13 Cooper.

14 MR. ALEXANDER: David Alexander of MBV Law for

15 Petitioner Kevin Cooper. Good morning, your Honor.

16

17


MS. WILKENS: Good morning, your Honor. Holly

18 Wilkens, deputy attorney general, for the Respondent, with

19 Adrianne Denault, deputy attorney general, for the

20 Respondent.

21 THE COURT: I don't see Adrianne here yet.

22 MS. WILKENS: She was just here, your Honor.

23 THE COURT: She's coming. All right. Thank you.

24 We can proceed with the witness.

25 MR. HILE: Yes, your Honor. Petitioner calls

1


1 Christine Slonaker.

2

3

4

5

THE CLERK: Please raise your right hand.

CHRISTINE SLONAKER, PETITIONER'S WITNESS, SWORN

THE WITNESS: Good morning.


6 THE CLERK: State your full name for the record,

7 spelling your first and last name.

8 THE WITNESS: Christine Slonaker,

9 C-H-R-I-S-T-I-N-E, S-L-O-N-A-K-E-R.

10

11

MR. HILE: Thank you, your Honor.

DIRECT EXAMINATION

12 BY MR. HILE:

13 Q

14 A

15 Q

16 A

17 Q

18 A

19 Q

20 A

21 Q

22

Ms. Slonaker, can you tell us where you currently live?

I live in Nevada City, California.

And are you employed there?

Yes. I have my own business.

And what is that business?

Victorian Renovations, Inc.

How long have you lived in Nevada City, California?

One year.

I want to now show you an exhibit which --

MR. HILE: Excuse me. I'll ask the clerk to mark

23 this as Exhibit 20, your Honor.

24 THE COURT: Is that her declaration?

25 MR. HILE: Yes, your Honor.

2


1 Christine Slonaker.

2

3

4

5


CHRISTINE SLONAKER, PETITIONER'S WITNESS, SWORN

THE WITNESS: Good morning.




8 THE WITNESS: Christine Slonaker,

9 C-H-R-I-S-T-I-N-E, S-L-O-N-A-K-E-R.

10

11

MR. HILE: Thank you, your Honor.

DIRECT EXAMINATION

12 BY MR. HILE:

13 Q

14 A

15 Q

16 A

17 Q

18 A

19 Q

20 A

21 Q

22

Ms. Slonaker, can you tell us where you currently live?

I live in Nevada City, California.

And are you employed there?

Yes. I have my own business.

And what is that business?

Victorian Renovations, Inc.

How long have you lived in Nevada City, California?

One year.

I want to now show you an exhibit which --

MR. HILE: Excuse me. I'll ask the clerk to mark

23 this as Exhibit 20, your Honor.

24 THE COURT: Is that her declaration?


2


1

2

3

THE COURT: It's a little unusual, but -

THE WITNESS: I don't need it.

MR. HILE: It has exhibits attached to it, your

4 Honor.

5

6

THE COURT: All right.

MR. HILE: That's what I want to refer her to, but

7 I did want to mark it. May I approach the witness?

8 THE COURT: You may.

9 MR. HILE: Thank you.

10 THE COURT: You don't need to inquire.

11 MR. HILE: Thank you, your Honor.

12 BY MR. HILE:

13 Q Ms. Slonaker, I've shown you what has been marked as

14 Petitioner's Exhibit 20. Do you have that in front of you?

15

16 A

17 Q

18 A

(Witness proffered document.)

Yes.

Can you tell us, just briefly, what that is?

It is the declaration of the incidents that happened

19 that I witnessed the night in Chino.

20 Q Okay. will you look at the last page of the text of

21 it, please? I'm sorry. Go to the last page of the text,

22 not to the exhibits that are attached.

23 A Of the text. Okay.

24 Q You'll see a signature block.

25 A Yes.

3


1

2

3

THE COURT: It's a little unusual, but -

THE WITNESS: I don't need it.

MR. HILE: It has exhibits attached to it, your

4 Honor.

5

6

THE COURT: All right.

MR. HILE: That's what I want to refer her to, but

7 I did want to mark it. May I approach the witness?

8 THE COURT: You may.

9 MR. HILE: Thank you.

10 THE COURT: You don't need to inquire.


12 BY MR. HILE:

13 Q Ms. Slonaker, I've shown you what has been marked as

14 Petitioner's Exhibit 20. Do you have that in front of you?

15

16 A

17 Q

18 A


Yes.

Can you tell us, just briefly, what that is?

It is the declaration of the incidents that happened

19 that I witnessed the night in Chino.

20 Q Okay. will you look at the last page of the text of

21 it, please? I'm sorry. Go to the last page of the text,

22 not to the exhibits that are attached.

23 A Of the text. Okay.

24 Q You'll see a signature block.

25 A Yes.

3


1 Q

2 A

3 Q

4 A

5 Q

6 A

7 Q

8 A

9 Q

10 it?

11 A

Okay. Is that your signature?

Yes, it is.

And what is the date on it?

The date?

What date above

February 7.

Of what year?

2004.

Okay. When you signed this declaration, had you read

Yes.

12 Q And I want you to take a look at the page after your

13 signature page. Can you describe what that is, please?

14 A

15 Q

16 A

17

That's a drawing of the area, Chino Hills, California.

Who drew this map?

I drew it.

MR. HILE: Okay. Does your Honor have a copy of

18 the exhibit?

19

20

21

THE COURT: I do.

MR. HILE: Thank you.

MS. WILKENS: Your Honor, excuse me. May I move

22 to exclude witnesses, in light of the nature of the

23 testimony?

24 THE COURT: You may. All witnesses are excused.

25 II

4


1 Q

2 A

3 Q

4 A

5 Q

6 A

7 Q

8 A

9 Q

10 it?

11 A

Okay. Is that your signature?

Yes, it is.

And what is the date on it?

The date?

What date above

February 7.

Of what year?

2004.

Okay. When you signed this declaration, had you read

Yes.

12 Q And I want you to take a look at the page after your

13 signature page. Can you describe what that is, please?

14 A

15 Q

16 A

17

That's a drawing of the area, Chino Hills, California.

Who drew this map?

I drew it.

MR. HILE: Okay. Does your Honor have a copy of

18 the exhibit?

19

20

21

THE COURT: I do.


MS. WILKENS: Your Honor, excuse me. May I move

22 to exclude witnesses, in light of the nature of the

23 testimony?

24 THE COURT: You may. All witnesses are excused.

25 II

4


5

1 BY MR. BILE:

2 Q When did you draw this diagram or map, Ms. Slonaker?

3 A On the day I was contacted, the same day that I did the

4 declaration.

5 Q Okay. And is your signature on it?

6 A Yes, it is.

7 Q Can you say where it is on the exhibit for the Court?

8 A Right there (witness indicating) .

9 Q And if you would look at the next page. Can you tell

10 us what that is?

11 A That's a drawing of the Canyon Corral Restaurant on

12 Carbon Canyon Road and Peyton Drive.

13 Q

14 A

15 Q

16 A

17 Q

18 A

19 Q

20 A

21 Q

22 A

23 Q

24 A

25 Q

And who drew that map?

I did.

When did you draw it?

Same day, the 7th.

Did you draw it from memory?

Dh-huh.

You have to answer yes or no.

Yes.

Is your signature on -

Yes.

-- on that exhibit?

It's right there (witness indicating).

Now, before I ask you some more questions about the


5

1 BY MR. BILE:

2 Q When did you draw this diagram or map, Ms. Slonaker?

3 A On the day I was contacted, the same day that I did the

4 declaration.

5 Q Okay. And is your signature on it?

6 A Yes, it is.

7 Q Can you say where it is on the exhibit for the Court?

8 A Right there (witness indicating) .

9 Q And if you would look at the next page. Can you tell

10 us what that is?

11 A That's a drawing of the Canyon Corral Restaurant on

12 Carbon Canyon Road and Peyton Drive.

13 Q

14 A

15 Q

16 A

17 Q

18 A

19 Q

20 A

21 Q

22 A

23 Q

24 A

25 Q

And who drew that map?

I did.

When did you draw it?

Same day, the 7th.

Did you draw it from memory?

Dh-huh.

You have to answer yes or no.

Yes.

Is your signature on -

Yes.

-- on that exhibit?

It's right there (witness indicating).

Now, before I ask you some more questions about the


1 attachment, I want to ask you some questions about yourself.

2 A Okay.

3 Q Where were you born?

4 A Los Angeles, California.

5 Q And where did you grow up?

6 A Orange County, and then into Chino.

7 Q Did you attend high school?

8 A In Pomona.

9 Q And did you graduate?

10 A Yes, I did.

11 Q Did you have any schooling after you graduated from

12 high school?

13 A

14 Q

15 A

A lot of it.

Can you describe it, briefly, for the Court?

Well, I went to Nursing Training Institute of

16 Fullerton, California, internship in hospitals down there.

17 Then, from there, I went -- the next schooling I ever did

18 was in Victorville, at Victor Valley College. I took

19 medical assistant classes to keep my nursing degree current.

20 I took phlebotomy classes. I received degrees in business,

21 phlebotomy.

22 Q Let me ask you a little bit about your career, then, as

23 a nurse. You said that you have a nursing degree. Is that

24 correct?

25 A Yes.

6


1 attachment, I want to ask you some questions about yourself.

2 A Okay.

3 Q Where were you born?

4 A Los Angeles, California.

5 Q And where did you grow up?

6 A Orange County, and then into Chino.

7 Q Did you attend high school?

8 A In Pomona.

9 Q And did you graduate?

10 A Yes, I did.

11 Q Did you have any schooling after you graduated from

12 high school?

13 A

14 Q

15 A

A lot of it.

Can you describe it, briefly, for the Court?

Well, I went to Nursing Training Institute of

16 Fullerton, California, internship in hospitals down there.

17 Then, from there, I went -- the next schooling I ever did

18 was in Victorville, at Victor Valley College. I took

19 medical assistant classes to keep my nursing degree current.

20 I took phlebotomy classes. I received degrees in business,

21 phlebotomy.

22 Q Let me ask you a little bit about your career, then, as

23 a nurse. You said that you have a nursing degree. Is that

24 correct?

25 A Yes.

6


1 Q And did you work as a nurse?

2 A Many years.

3 Q Okay. Can you describe, briefly, where you worked?

4 A Well, I did a lot of private-duty nursing on the police

5 chief of Fullerton, geriatrics, pediatrics in Anaheim

6 Memorial Roos (phonetic), Dry (phonetic) Hospital, St. Jude

7 Memorial, Three Rivers Hospital, working in medical records,

8 and I worked in the lab there.

Did you ever work in the emergency room anywhere?

Internship in the emergency room.

9 Q

10 A

11 Q You said that you had a license as a phlebotomist. Is

12 that correct?

13 A As a phlebotomist.

14 Q What is that, briefly?

15 A It's blood withdrawal. I have the degree to

16 intravenously withdraw blood

17 Q Did you ever work

18 A - - and process it.

19 Q Did you work in that profession?

20 A Yes.

21 Q I want to ask you now to focus your attention on

22 year 1983. I know it's 21 years ago. Where were you

23 living?

24 A

25 Q

Chino Hills.

How long had you lived in Chino Hills?

the

7


1 Q And did you work as a nurse?

2 A Many years.

3 Q Okay. Can you describe, briefly, where you worked?

4 A Well, I did a lot of private-duty nursing on the police

5 chief of Fullerton, geriatrics, pediatrics in Anaheim

6 Memorial Roos (phonetic), Dry (phonetic) Hospital, St. Jude

7 Memorial, Three Rivers Hospital, working in medical records,

8 and I worked in the lab there.

Did you ever work in the emergency room anywhere?

Internship in the emergency room.

9 Q

10 A

11 Q You said that you had a license as a phlebotomist. Is

12 that correct?

13 A As a phlebotomist.

14 Q What is that, briefly?

15 A It's blood withdrawal. I have the degree to

16 intravenously withdraw blood

17 Q Did you ever work

18 A - - and process it.

19 Q Did you work in that profession?

20 A Yes.

21 Q I want to ask you now to focus your attention on

22 year 1983. I know it's 21 years ago. Where were you

23 living?

24 A

25 Q

Chino Hills.

How long had you lived in Chino Hills?

the

7


1 A Four or five years, six years.

2 Q Were you married at that time?

3 A Yes, I was.

4 Q And were you living with your husband at that

5 A Actually, I was just going through a divorce.

6 just been divorced.

7 Q Okay. What was his name?

8 A Donald Renfro.

9 Q And what was your name at that time,

10 A Christine Renfro.

11 Q Where did you live in Chino - -

12 THE COURT: Can you spell that?

13 THE WITNESS: R-E-N-F-R-O.

14 BY MR. HILE:

Where did you live in Chino Hills?

14528 Sandbar.

in 1983?

time?

We had

15 Q

16 A

17 Q Okay. Is the location of your home during 1983, on

18 Sandbar, on the diagram that you drew which is the first

19 attachment to your declaration?

20 A

21 Q

Yes, it is.

Can you open to that map and point out for the Court

22 where that address is?

23 A

24 Q

25 A

Point out -- pardon me?

Where that house is on it.

Right there (witness indicating).

8


1 A Four or five years, six years.

2 Q Were you married at that time?

3 A Yes, I was.

4 Q And were you living with your husband at that

5 A Actually, I was just going through a divorce.

6 just been divorced.

7 Q Okay. What was his name?

8 A Donald Renfro.

9 Q And what was your name at that time,

10 A Christine Renfro.

11 Q Where did you live in Chino - -

12 THE COURT: Can you spell that?

13 THE WITNESS: R-E-N-F-R-O.

14 BY MR. HILE:

Where did you live in Chino Hills?

14528 Sandbar.

in 1983?

time?

We had

15 Q

16 A

17 Q Okay. Is the location of your home during 1983, on

18 Sandbar, on the diagram that you drew which is the first

19 attachment to your declaration?

20 A

21 Q

Yes, it is.

Can you open to that map and point out for the Court

22 where that address is?

23 A

24 Q

25 A

Point out -- pardon me?

Where that house is on it.

Right there (witness indicating).

8


-,

1 Q Now, approximately how far is that house from the

2 Canyon Corral Bar at the corner of

3 A Probably about a half-mile, at the most, not very far.

4 Q How long did you live at that address at Sandbar

5 Street?

6 A Probably around four years, five years.

7 Q Now, I'd like to ask you some questions about some

8 other locations in Chino Hills, using the map that you drew

9 on February 7th as a reference. Is the Canyon Corral Bar on

10 the map?

11 A Yes.

12 Q

13 is?

14 A

Okay. And can you point out to the Court where that

Okay. It is, let me see, right there (witness

15 indicating)

16 Q And can you give the location on the street? Is that

17 on the corner?

18 A It's on the corner of Carbon Canyon Road and Peyton

19 Drive, or it was. I hear -- you said it had been tore down.

20 Q Now, before you lived at the home on Sandbar, did you

21 live in another house, residence t close to that?

22 A Around the corner. Down the street from the Canyon

23 Corral Restaurant was a street called Hazelwood, and I lived

24 there.

25 Q Is that on that map that you drew?

9


-,

1 Q Now, approximately how far is that house from the

2 Canyon Corral Bar at the corner of

3 A Probably about a half-mile, at the most, not very far.

4 Q How long did you live at that address at Sandbar

5 Street?

6 A Probably around four years, five years.

7 Q Now, I'd like to ask you some questions about some

8 other locations in Chino Hills, using the map that you drew

9 on February 7th as a reference. Is the Canyon Corral Bar on

10 the map?

11 A Yes.

12 Q

13 is?

14 A

Okay. And can you point out to the Court where that

Okay. It is, let me see, right there (witness

15 indicating)

16 Q And can you give the location on the street? Is that

17 on the corner?

18 A It's on the corner of Carbon Canyon Road and Peyton

19 Drive, or it was. I hear -- you said it had been tore down.

20 Q Now, before you lived at the home on Sandbar, did you

21 live in another house, residence t close to that?

22 A Around the corner. Down the street from the Canyon

23 Corral Restaurant was a street called Hazelwood, and I lived

24 there.

25 Q Is that on that map that you drew?

9


10

1 A Yes, it is, right here (witness indicating).

2 Q Thank you. NOW, looking at your map again, is the home

3 of Doug and Peggy Ryen and their children on the map?

4 A It's right there (witness indicating).

5 Q Okay. Let me ask, when you were at your home on

6 Sandbar Street, were you able to see the Ryens' house?

7 A Yes, I was.

8 Q How was it that you could see the house from there?

9 A Because all of my back windows, from the kitchen to the

10 den, all faced up that hill, and you could see it very plain

11 from my back of my hou.se.

12 Q Was the Ryens' house, then, on a hill above?

13 A Yes, it was.

14 Q Did you know the Ryens?

15 A No.

16 Q I want to ask you now some questions about the Canyon

17 Corral Bar. Were you a patron of that establishment?

18 A Yes.

19 Q How frequently did you go there?

20 A Whenever I was hungry. It was the only restaurant in

21 town at the time.

22 Q Did you go there with your family?

23 A Uh-huh.

24 Q How was the food?

25 A Great.


10

1 A Yes, it is, right here (witness indicating).

2 Q Thank you. NOW, looking at your map again, is the home

3 of Doug and Peggy Ryen and their children on the map?

4 A It's right there (witness indicating).

5 Q Okay. Let me ask, when you were at your home on

6 Sandbar Street, were you able to see the Ryens' house?

7 A Yes, I was.

8 Q How was it that you could see the house from there?

9 A Because all of my back windows, from the kitchen to the

10 den, all faced up that hill, and you could see it very plain

11 from my back of my hou.se.

12 Q Was the Ryens' house, then, on a hill above?

13 A Yes, it was.

14 Q Did you know the Ryens?

15 A No.

16 Q I want to ask you now some questions about the Canyon

17 Corral Bar. Were you a patron of that establishment?

18 A Yes.

19 Q How frequently did you go there?

20 A Whenever I was hungry. It was the only restaurant in

21 town at the time.

22 Q Did you go there with your family?

23 A Uh-huh.

24 Q How was the food?

25 A Great.


11

1 Q Did you know any of the staff?

2 A Not personally -- well, maybe Janice. She used to work

3 there.

4 Q Now, I'd like you to look at the second diagram that

5 you drew that's attached to your declaration that we looked

6 at a minute ago, that one that you identified as showing the

7 bar itself.

8 A The Canyon Corral one? Okay.

9 Q Looking at that diagram, can you describe for the Court

10 where patrons would park if they were going to the Canyon

11 Corral Bar?

12 A

13 Q

14 A

Parking?

Yes.

Well, I used to park out front. You could park on

15 Peyton. You could come in the back and you could park this

16 way (witness indicating). There was a horse corral here

17 (witness indicating), and then -- it was kind of difficult

18 to park on this side (witness indicating) of it, because

19 there were big trees.

20 Q When you say "this side," can you hold it up and show

21 the Court where you're talking about?

22 A This one here (witness indicating)

23 Q Along Carbon Canyon Road?

24 A No, no. Carbon Canyon Road is here (witness

25 indicating). This was a small -- you can drive around, but


11

1 Q Did you know any of the staff?

2 A Not personally -- well, maybe Janice. She used to work

3 there.

4 Q Now, I'd like you to look at the second diagram that

5 you drew that's attached to your declaration that we looked

6 at a minute ago, that one that you identified as showing the

7 bar itself.

8 A The Canyon Corral one? Okay.

9 Q Looking at that diagram, can you describe for the Court

10 where patrons would park if they were going to the Canyon

11 Corral Bar?

12 A

13 Q

14 A

Parking?

Yes.

Well, I used to park out front. You could park on

15 Peyton. You could come in the back and you could park this

16 way (witness indicating). There was a horse corral here

17 (witness indicating), and then -- it was kind of difficult

18 to park on this side (witness indicating) of it, because

19 there were big trees.

20 Q When you say "this side," can you hold it up and show

21 the Court where you're talking about?

22 A This one here (witness indicating)

23 Q Along Carbon Canyon Road?

24 A No, no. Carbon Canyon Road is here (witness

25 indicating). This was a small -- you can drive around, but


12

1 on this side there were some big trees here (witness

2 indicating), and it was very -- you know, you could park

3 there, but it was more -- you should probably park somewhere

4 in here (witness indicating).

5 MR. HILE: All right. Your Honor, I want to show

6 the witness what I understand was marked on Friday as

7 Exhibit JJJ, and I have copies here, but I didn't know

8 whether you wanted the witness to be looking at what had

9 been marked at that time. That's the pictures of the bar.

10 THE COURT: Okay.

11

12

MR. HILE: I'll get them.

THE WITNESS: Damn. It's been a while.

13 BY MR. HILE:

14 Q Ms. Slonaker, you have in front of you Exhibit JJJ.

15 Can you identify what that is a photograph of?

16 A

17 Q

It's a picture of the Canyon Corral Restaurant and Bar.

And the road that is on the left-hand side of the

18 photograph, which road is that?

19 A Carbon Canyon Road.

20 Q And the road that is in the foreground, what road is

21 that?

22 A

23 Q

24 A

25 Q

That would be Peyton Drive.

Can you look at the next photograph, please, in JJJ?

Okay.

And on the back of it, there should be a designation of


12

1 on this side there were some big trees here (witness

2 indicating), and it was very -- you know, you could park

3 there, but it was more -- you should probably park somewhere

4 in here (witness indicating).

5 MR. HILE: All right. Your Honor, I want to show

6 the witness what I understand was marked on Friday as

7 Exhibit JJJ, and I have copies here, but I didn't know

8 whether you wanted the witness to be looking at what had

9 been marked at that time. That's the pictures of the bar.

10 THE COURT: Okay.

11

12

MR. HILE: I'll get them.

THE WITNESS: Damn. It's been a while.

13 BY MR. HILE:

14 Q Ms. Slonaker, you have in front of you Exhibit JJJ.

15 Can you identify what that is a photograph of?

16 A

17 Q

It's a picture of the Canyon Corral Restaurant and Bar.

And the road that is on the left-hand side of the

18 photograph, which road is that?

19 A Carbon Canyon Road.

20 Q And the road that is in the foreground, what road is

21 that?

22 A

23 Q

24 A

25 Q

That would be Peyton Drive.

Can you look at the next photograph, please, in JJJ?

Okay.

And on the back of it, there should be a designation of


1 its

2 A That's the back parking lot. That would have been the

3 next-door neighbor to the bar's property and the hills.

4 Q And for the record, this is JJJ-2. And, Ms. Slonaker,

5 in the background to the right, can you tell us what we're

6 able to see in the distance there?

7 A The hills.

8 Q And what is the building to the right of the bar, the

9 building itself? It's sort of in the medium background.

10 A

11 Q

12 A

13 Q

14 A

The barn, you mean?

Yes.

Yes. It's a barn at the neighbor's property.

Okay.

There used to be a horse corral right here (witness

15 indicating). I don't know where -- I don't see it there.

16 Q All right. Would you take a look, please, at the next

17 photograph in the collection there, which would be JJJ-3?

18 A Yes. It's not there - - well, there it is.

19 Q Is that the same horse barn?

20 A Yes. The barn? Yes.

21 Q And the hill in the background, is that the same hill?

22 A Yes.

23 Q So this area of the parking lot that's in the

24 foreground, can you describe where that would be on the

25 diagram that you drew of the bar?

13


1 its

2 A That's the back parking lot. That would have been the

3 next-door neighbor to the bar's property and the hills.

4 Q And for the record, this is JJJ-2. And, Ms. Slonaker,

5 in the background to the right, can you tell us what we're

6 able to see in the distance there?

7 A The hills.

8 Q And what is the building to the right of the bar, the

9 building itself? It's sort of in the medium background.

10 A

11 Q

12 A

13 Q

14 A

The barn, you mean?

Yes.

Yes. It's a barn at the neighbor's property.

Okay.

There used to be a horse corral right here (witness

15 indicating). I don't know where -- I don't see it there.

16 Q All right. Would you take a look, please, at the next

17 photograph in the collection there, which would be JJJ-3?

18 A Yes. It's not there - - well, there it is.

19 Q Is that the same horse barn?

20 A Yes. The barn? Yes.

21 Q And the hill in the background, is that the same hill?

22 A Yes.

23 Q So this area of the parking lot that's in the

24 foreground, can you describe where that would be on the

25 diagram that you drew of the bar?

13


1 A It/s in the back end. It/s the back side of it. It/s

2 right here (witness indicating) I see? And then that would

3 be where the barn was (witness indicating) I and the hills

14

4 are here (witness indicating). There is a horse corral here

5 (witness indicating) I and you can park right there (witness

6 indicating)

7 Q Okay. So the record is clear I we/re talking about the

8 area that is orienting your diagram?

Yes. 9 A

10 Q Talking about the area that is to the right of the

11 horse corral?

12 A Yes.

13 Q At the top of that diagram l correct?

14 A Yes.

15 Q Now l looking at your diagram of the bar itself l can you

16 point to the Court where the entrances to the bar were?

17 A There was a front-door entrance l a back-door entrance

18 that l normallYI normal customers would use but there was a

19 little back door to the kitchen.

20 Q All right. And is the kitchen door on your diagram?

21 A Yes l it is.

22 Q Can you describe where it is with reference to the back

23 door that people used?

24 A WeIll it/s on the same back wall of that restaurant.

25 You know I this was the door where you would go into the back

Echo Reporting l Inc.

1 A It/s in the back end. It/s the back side of it. It/s

2 right here (witness indicating) I see? And then that would

3 be where the barn was (witness indicating) I and the hills

14

4 are here (witness indicating). There is a horse corral here

5 (witness indicating) I and you can park right there (witness

6 indicating)

7 Q Okay. So the record is clear I we/re talking about the

8 area that is orienting your diagram?

Yes. 9 A

10 Q Talking about the area that is to the right of the

11 horse corral?

12 A Yes.

13 Q At the top of that diagram l correct?

14 A Yes.

15 Q Now l looking at your diagram of the bar itself l can you

16 point to the Court where the entrances to the bar were?

17 A There was a front-door entrance l a back-door entrance

18 that l normallYI normal customers would use but there was a

19 little back door to the kitchen.

20 Q All right. And is the kitchen door on your diagram?

21 A Yes l it is.

22 Q Can you describe where it is with reference to the back

23 door that people used?

24 A WeIll it/s on the same back wall of that restaurant.

25 You know I this was the door where you would go into the back


1 parking lot for normal patrons, but I'm sure that the

2 kitchen help probably used this door (witness indicating),

3 or the people who worked there.

4 Q Now, during 1983, did you ever go to the Canyon Corral

5 on Saturday nights?

6 A On Saturday night?

7 Q Yes.

8 A I'm sure I did, yes.

9 Q Did they have a live band playing sometimes on

10 Saturdays?

11 A

12 Q

13 A

Sometimes.

What time, usually, would music start there?

I think it was after-hour -- you know, they served to

15

14 families. So I think it was after the 9:00 o'clock issue of

15 children leaving.

16 Q Okay. Now, looking at your diagram of the Canyon

17 Corral Bar, on the inside, can you point to and describe

18 where it is that the band would play?

19 A It would be over here, off of the dance-floor area, in

20 the corner, before -- there were bathrooms down a little

21 hallway that aren't on here because I was running out of

22 paper room, but the band would usually play in this little

23 corner here (witness indicating) .

24 Q Are you pointing, then, to the upper-left corner of the

25 diagram of the bar?


1 parking lot for normal patrons, but I'm sure that the

2 kitchen help probably used this door (witness indicating),

3 or the people who worked there.

4 Q Now, during 1983, did you ever go to the Canyon Corral

5 on Saturday nights?

6 A On Saturday night?

7 Q Yes.

8 A I'm sure I did, yes.

9 Q Did they have a live band playing sometimes on

10 Saturdays?

11 A

12 Q

13 A

Sometimes.

What time, usually, would music start there?

I think it was after-hour -- you know, they served to

15

14 families. So I think it was after the 9:00 o'clock issue of

15 children leaving.

16 Q Okay. Now, looking at your diagram of the Canyon

17 Corral Bar, on the inside, can you point to and describe

18 where it is that the band would play?

19 A It would be over here, off of the dance-floor area, in

20 the corner, before -- there were bathrooms down a little

21 hallway that aren't on here because I was running out of

22 paper room, but the band would usually play in this little

23 corner here (witness indicating) .

24 Q Are you pointing, then, to the upper-left corner of the

25 diagram of the bar?


1 A Uh-huh.

2 Q Thank you. I want to ask you now about the diagram

3 that youtve drawn with respect to the swinging doors to the

4 kitchen. Can you point out to the Court -- describe where

5 that is?

6 A They were between the back kitchen door t coming into

7 the bar area where the lady would standt or whoever was

8 working t I guess t would standt and then they had little

9 barstools t but the swinging doors are right there between

10 the kitchen and the actual bar.

11 Q Okay. Now t I want to ask you some questions directly

12 with respect to the night of June 4tht 1983 t and t for your

13 reference t the record has established that thatts the night

14 that the Ryens and Chris Hughes were attacked t and everyone

15 but Joshua Ryen died. Did you go to the Canyon Corral Bar

16 that evening?

17 A

18 Q

19 A

20 Q

21 A

22 mine.

23 Q

24 A

Yes t we did.

Who did you go with?

I went with Mary Mellon.

Who was Mary Mellon?

She was my childrents preschool teacher and friend of

Where did she live?

She lived with me at one point t but before that she

25 lived in Ontario with her parents.

16

Echo Reporting t Inc.

1 A Uh-huh.

2 Q Thank you. I want to ask you now about the diagram

3 that youtve drawn with respect to the swinging doors to the

4 kitchen. Can you point out to the Court -- describe where

5 that is?

6 A They were between the back kitchen door t coming into

7 the bar area where the lady would standt or whoever was

8 working t I guess t would standt and then they had little

9 barstools t but the swinging doors are right there between

10 the kitchen and the actual bar.

11 Q Okay. Now t I want to ask you some questions directly

12 with respect to the night of June 4tht 1983 t and t for your

13 reference t the record has established that thatts the night

14 that the Ryens and Chris Hughes were attacked t and everyone

15 but Joshua Ryen died. Did you go to the Canyon Corral Bar

16 that evening?

17 A

18 Q

19 A

20 Q

21 A

22 mine.

23 Q

24 A

Yes t we did.

Who did you go with?

I went with Mary Mellon.

Who was Mary Mellon?

She was my childrents preschool teacher and friend of

Where did she live?

She lived with me at one point t but before that she

25 lived in Ontario with her parents.

16


17

1 Q How long had you known Mary Mellon?

2 A Two or three years.

3 Q Is Mary Mellon still her name?

4 A According to you, no. It is now, as you tell me, Mary

5 Wolfe.

6 Q Now, you said that you and Mary Mellon, at the time,

7 went to the bar. Did you go with anyone else?

8 A A friend of Mary's that I was not real familiar with

9 went with us. She had said that this young lady didn't have

10 any real friends, and wanted to go have some dinner, and so

11 we decided to go down there, and I didn't really know her

12 very well. In fact, I can't even recall her name, to tell

13 you the truth, very well.

14 Q Now, when the three of you went to the Canyon Corral

15 Bar that night of June 4th, 1983, can you tell us what time

16 you arrived?

17 A

18 Q

Evening.

Referring again to the diagram that you've drawn, which

19 is the second exhibit on your declaration, Exhibit B, as

20 it's referred to in the declaration, can you tell us where

21 you sat?

22 A Well, all the booths were taken that night, and so we

23 were forced to kind of sit at the bar. We sat to the left-

24 hand side of the waitress station, the first three seats.

25 Q Okay.


17

1 Q How long had you known Mary Mellon?

2 A Two or three years.

3 Q Is Mary Mellon still her name?

4 A According to you, no. It is now, as you tell me, Mary

5 Wolfe.

6 Q Now, you said that you and Mary Mellon, at the time,

7 went to the bar. Did you go with anyone else?

8 A A friend of Mary's that I was not real familiar with

9 went with us. She had said that this young lady didn't have

10 any real friends, and wanted to go have some dinner, and so

11 we decided to go down there, and I didn't really know her

12 very well. In fact, I can't even recall her name, to tell

13 you the truth, very well.

14 Q Now, when the three of you went to the Canyon Corral

15 Bar that night of June 4th, 1983, can you tell us what time

16 you arrived?

17 A

18 Q

Evening.

Referring again to the diagram that you've drawn, which

19 is the second exhibit on your declaration, Exhibit B, as

20 it's referred to in the declaration, can you tell us where

21 you sat?

22 A Well, all the booths were taken that night, and so we

23 were forced to kind of sit at the bar. We sat to the left-

24 hand side of the waitress station, the first three seats.

25 Q Okay.


18

1 A It was MarYt this girlt and me.

2 Q Now t when you drew your diagram on February 7th of 2004

3 of the bart did you show where you were sitting with respect

4 to those seats?

5 A I did.

6 Q And how did you indicate where you were sitting? What

7 did you put on the diagram to show that?

8 A Little XS t and I even see that I wrote t "Diane t " but

9 Itm not real sure that thatts her name.

10 Q Okay. Now t when you went in that evening t was the band

11 playing?

12 A I dontt recollect.

13 Q Did you order food?

14 A More than likely.

15 Q Could you order - -

16 A Thatts why I went there.

17 Q Could you order food if you were sitting at the bar?

18 A Well t you could t because there was nowhere else to sit.

19 Itm sure we were probably waiting for a booth to come open.

20 Q Did you have any alcoholic beverages to drink?

21 A NOt I did not.

22 Q Was that unusual?

23 A No. I dontt really - - It m not much of a drinker t even

24 today. I socially have a glass of winet and thatts about

25 it.


18

1 A It was MarYt this girlt and me.

2 Q Now t when you drew your diagram on February 7th of 2004

3 of the bart did you show where you were sitting with respect

4 to those seats?

5 A I did.

6 Q And how did you indicate where you were sitting? What

7 did you put on the diagram to show that?

8 A Little XS t and I even see that I wrote t "Diane t " but

9 Itm not real sure that thatts her name.

10 Q Okay. Now t when you went in that evening t was the band

11 playing?

12 A I dontt recollect.

13 Q Did you order food?

14 A More than likely.

15 Q Could you order - -

16 A Thatts why I went there.

17 Q Could you order food if you were sitting at the bar?

18 A Well t you could t because there was nowhere else to sit.

19 Itm sure we were probably waiting for a booth to come open.

20 Q Did you have any alcoholic beverages to drink?

21 A NOt I did not.

22 Q Was that unusual?

23 A No. I dontt really - - It m not much of a drinker t even

24 today. I socially have a glass of winet and thatts about

25 it.


1 Q Now, I'm going to ask you some questions about

2 specifically what happened that night at the Canyon Corral

3 Bar. Let me ask you first, do you have a recollection of

4 that night?

5 A Yes.

6 Q And why is that now, 20 years later, you do remember

7 that?

8 A Well, because it isn't too often you run into people

9 that have blood allover their clothes.

10 Q Let me then go back for a second and start. You said

11 there were people there with blood on them. When did you

12 first see these people?

13 A Well, we were sitting there, and these guys came in

14 through these swinging doors.

15 THE COURT: That's a narrative. Let's have a

16 question.

17 BY MR. HILE:

18 Q All right. How many were there?

19 A

20 Q

21 A

I saw two.

And where did they come, referring to your diagram?

They came through the swinging doors here (witness

22 indicating), outside of the -- inside the kitchen area,

19

23 which was unusual, because it actually isn't an entrance for

24 people, I would imagine. I mean, I never saw -- I never

25 went through that door.


1 Q Now, I'm going to ask you some questions about

2 specifically what happened that night at the Canyon Corral

3 Bar. Let me ask you first, do you have a recollection of

4 that night?

5 A Yes.

6 Q And why is that now, 20 years later, you do remember

7 that?

8 A Well, because it isn't too often you run into people

9 that have blood allover their clothes.

10 Q Let me then go back for a second and start. You said

11 there were people there with blood on them. When did you

12 first see these people?

13 A Well, we were sitting there, and these guys came in

14 through these swinging doors.

15 THE COURT: That's a narrative. Let's have a

16 question.

17 BY MR. HILE:

18 Q All right. How many were there?

19 A

20 Q

21 A

I saw two.

And where did they come, referring to your diagram?

They came through the swinging doors here (witness

22 indicating), outside of the -- inside the kitchen area,

19

23 which was unusual, because it actually isn't an entrance for

24 people, I would imagine. I mean, I never saw -- I never

25 went through that door.


20

1 MR. HILE: Your Honor, for the record, the diagram

2 that Ms. Slonaker is describing which she drew, which is

3 attached as Exhibit B to her declaration, in my

4 understanding, was marked as Exhibit SSS on Friday.

5 THE COURT: Let's have her use her own -- we can't

6 start marking up other people's --

7 MR. HILE: Okay. I just wanted the record to

8 reflect it's the same diagram.

9 THE COURT: If you want it used, then have it

10 marked for her. Otherwise, you have one diagram being -

II the record gets completely inaccurate if we have people

12 marking up the same exhibit. So, if you want her to use her

13 exhibit, then

14 MR. HILE: I'm happy to have her use this. I just

15 want the record to reflect that it is the same, because we

16 didn't have Exhibit --

17 THE COURT: It's not the same, because another

18 witness has written on it. It's not generally the case that

19 somebody writes on an admitted exhibit without permission.

20 So I would prefer, for the record, if you're going to have

21 her write on any exhibit, then use her own -- and have it

22 marked as next in order.

23 MR. HILE: I understand. Thank you, your Honor.

24 BY MR. HILE:

25 Q Now, I'd like you to point out and describe, so that we


20

1 MR. HILE: Your Honor, for the record, the diagram

2 that Ms. Slonaker is describing which she drew, which is

3 attached as Exhibit B to her declaration, in my

4 understanding, was marked as Exhibit SSS on Friday.

5 THE COURT: Let's have her use her own -- we can't

6 start marking up other people's --

7 MR. HILE: Okay. I just wanted the record to

8 reflect it's the same diagram.

9 THE COURT: If you want it used, then have it

10 marked for her. Otherwise, you have one diagram being -

II the record gets completely inaccurate if we have people

12 marking up the same exhibit. So, if you want her to use her

13 exhibit, then

14 MR. HILE: I'm happy to have her use this. I just

15 want the record to reflect that it is the same, because we

16 didn't have Exhibit --

17 THE COURT: It's not the same, because another

18 witness has written on it. It's not generally the case that

19 somebody writes on an admitted exhibit without permission.

20 So I would prefer, for the record, if you're going to have

21 her write on any exhibit, then use her own -- and have it

22 marked as next in order.

23 MR. HILE: I understand. Thank you, your Honor.

24 BY MR. HILE:

25 Q Now, I'd like you to point out and describe, so that we


1 have a record that shows where it is, where you first saw

2 these two men.

21

3 A Well, I was sitting here (witness indicating), and they

4 came right through the swinging doors, kind of falling all

5 over each other and kind of out of it.

6 THE COURT: So are you marking this, or is this

7 just part -- what do you want to do?

8 MR. HILE: I'm going to ask the witness to mark on

9 the exhibit a few things, so that we have a better record,

10 your Honor.

11

12

THE COURT: Okay. So, then, let's

MR. HILE: It's an exhibit -- it's part of Exhibit

13 20, so I'll do that.

14 THE COURT: Okay. All right.

15 BY MR. HILE:

16 Q Ms. Slonaker, I'm going to give you a pen, and it's

17 blue ink, and if you can put a circle where you first saw

18 the men come in, the two men.

19 A A circle where I first noticed them coming in?

20 Q Yes.

21 A Through the swinging doors.

22 Q Can you describe those two men for us, please?

23 A They were just blond-haired, kind of Caucasian,

24 probably in their 20s, maybe 25 to 30 years old, possibly,

25 and extremely delusional, and they had --


1 have a record that shows where it is, where you first saw

2 these two men.

21

3 A Well, I was sitting here (witness indicating), and they

4 came right through the swinging doors, kind of falling all

5 over each other and kind of out of it.

6 THE COURT: So are you marking this, or is this

7 just part -- what do you want to do?

8 MR. HILE: I'm going to ask the witness to mark on

9 the exhibit a few things, so that we have a better record,

10 your Honor.

11

12

THE COURT: Okay. So, then, let's

MR. HILE: It's an exhibit -- it's part of Exhibit

13 20, so I'll do that.

14 THE COURT: Okay. All right.

15 BY MR. HILE:

16 Q Ms. Slonaker, I'm going to give you a pen, and it's

17 blue ink, and if you can put a circle where you first saw

18 the men come in, the two men.

19 A A circle where I first noticed them coming in?

20 Q Yes.

21 A Through the swinging doors.

22 Q Can you describe those two men for us, please?

23 A They were just blond-haired, kind of Caucasian,

24 probably in their 20s, maybe 25 to 30 years old, possibly,

25 and extremely delusional, and they had --


1

2

3

MS. WILKENS: Objection l your Honor l narrative.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. HILE: 1/11 ask another question l your Honor.

4 BY MR. HILE:

22

5 Q 1/11 get to that in a second l Ms. Slonaker. Let me ask

6 you first l do you remember -- let/s start with the first

7 person that you saw -- what he was wearing?

8 A T-shirt and Levis.

9 Q What color was the T-shirt?

10 A

11 Q

12 A

13 Q

Kind of a white or a dirty -- like a tan or white.

Did you notice what kind of shoes he had on?

Tennis shoes.

What was the -- can you describe what the other person

14 that you saw was wearing?

15 A He had coveralls on l you know I the kind that buckle

16 here (witness indicating) .

17 Q

18 A

And did you notice what kind of shoes he was wearing?

Tennis shoes. The reason I noticed them was because

19 they were just a mess l and it was allover them.

20 Q Now l with respect to where they were standing at that

21 time l where were they with respect to the bar?

22 A

23 Q

24 A

25 Q

The first time I saw them or after they came around?

The first time you saw them.

They were standing right in front of us at the bar.

Okay.


1

2

3

MS. WILKENS: Objection l your Honor l narrative.


MR. HILE: 1/11 ask another question l your Honor.

4 BY MR. HILE:

22

5 Q 1/11 get to that in a second l Ms. Slonaker. Let me ask

6 you first l do you remember -- let/s start with the first

7 person that you saw -- what he was wearing?

8 A T-shirt and Levis.

9 Q What color was the T-shirt?

10 A

11 Q

12 A

13 Q

Kind of a white or a dirty -- like a tan or white.

Did you notice what kind of shoes he had on?

Tennis shoes.

What was the -- can you describe what the other person

14 that you saw was wearing?

15 A He had coveralls on l you know I the kind that buckle


17 Q

18 A

And did you notice what kind of shoes he was wearing?

Tennis shoes. The reason I noticed them was because

19 they were just a mess l and it was allover them.

20 Q Now l with respect to where they were standing at that

21 time l where were they with respect to the bar?

22 A

23 Q

24 A

25 Q

The first time I saw them or after they came around?

The first time you saw them.

They were standing right in front of us at the bar.

Okay.


-,

1 A Like l if this were the barl they were here (witness

2 indicating).

3 Q Was that behind the bar or in front of the bar?

4 A Behind itl which no one was ever I meanl that was a

5 real adamant thing at that place.

6

7

MS. WILKENS: Objection l narrative.


8 BY MR. HILE:

9 Q Had you ever seen anybody who was not a member of the

10 staff behind the bar before?

11 A

12 Q

13 A

14 Q

15 A

Not normally.

Now l how were they acting?

Strange.

And can you describe what you mean by "strange"?

Well l it was like their -- they were talking really

16 they were saying really weird and gibberish kind of things.

17 It wasn/t making any real sensei and they were kind of --

23

18 like l they weren/t drunk I like they were -- I don/t know how

19 to explain it. They were just not correct. They were kind

20 of like their eyes were rolling in their head. They were

21 gibberishing on and on about something I and then they

22 noticed my friend.

23 Q All right. How far were they from you when you first

24 saw them l how many feet l approximately?

25 A Closer than me and this woman here (witness


-,

1 A Like l if this were the barl they were here (witness

2 indicating).

3 Q Was that behind the bar or in front of the bar?

4 A Behind itl which no one was ever I meanl that was a

5 real adamant thing at that place.

6

7

MS. WILKENS: Objection l narrative.


8 BY MR. HILE:

9 Q Had you ever seen anybody who was not a member of the

10 staff behind the bar before?

11 A

12 Q

13 A

14 Q

15 A

Not normally.

Now l how were they acting?

Strange.

And can you describe what you mean by "strange"?

Well l it was like their -- they were talking really

16 they were saying really weird and gibberish kind of things.

17 It wasn/t making any real sensei and they were kind of --

23

18 like l they weren/t drunk I like they were -- I don/t know how

19 to explain it. They were just not correct. They were kind

20 of like their eyes were rolling in their head. They were

21 gibberishing on and on about something I and then they

22 noticed my friend.

23 Q All right. How far were they from you when you first

24 saw them l how many feet l approximately?

25 A Closer than me and this woman here (witness


24

1 indicating).

2 Q All right. And you're referring to the court reporter?

3 A Yes.

4 Q Did they approach you?

5 A They stood here, and they were looking at my friend,

6 because she had kind of a low-cut shirt on.

7

8

MS. WILKENS: Objection, speculation.

THE COURT: Overruled.

9 BY MR. HILE:

10 Q Go ahead.

11 A Okay. Did I say something wrong?

12 Q Yes, you can go ahead.

13 A Anyway, she had a low-cut shirt on. They were just

14 kind of ogling at her, you know. And so then they started

15 to come around the bar, and had to go through this little

16 entrance like this (witness indicating), and it had this

17 flip-up thing here (witness indicating), and they came

18 through, and they came around to, now, us, here on this side

19 (witness indicating) .

20 Q Okay. Now, before they came around to the bar, did you

21 say anything to them?

22 A Yes, "You're coming in the wrong way. You're not

23 supposed to come in that door."

24 Q

25 A

Okay.

Like I owned the place.


24

1 indicating).

2 Q All right. And you're referring to the court reporter?

3 A Yes.

4 Q Did they approach you?

5 A They stood here, and they were looking at my friend,

6 because she had kind of a low-cut shirt on.

7

8



9 BY MR. HILE:

10 Q Go ahead.

11 A Okay. Did I say something wrong?

12 Q Yes, you can go ahead.

13 A Anyway, she had a low-cut shirt on. They were just

14 kind of ogling at her, you know. And so then they started

15 to come around the bar, and had to go through this little

16 entrance like this (witness indicating), and it had this

17 flip-up thing here (witness indicating), and they came

18 through, and they came around to, now, us, here on this side


20 Q Okay. Now, before they came around to the bar, did you

21 say anything to them?

22 A Yes, "You're coming in the wrong way. You're not

23 supposed to come in that door."

24 Q

25 A

Okay.

Like I owned the place.


25

1 Q After they then came through and around the bar, what

2 did they do or say to you?

3 A Well, one of them came around and he kind of put his

4 arm around the chair and myself, and put his arm around the

5 other chair and this woman, and he was allover her, but, in

6 the interim, because the chairs were close, he was getting

7 allover me, and he had this allover him. So I backed --

8 Q Now, let me ask you about that. What did you see that

9 he had on him?

10 A He had blood all over him.

11 Q Tell us where you saw the blood on him.

12 A All over him. It was on his arms. It was all over his

13 face. It was on his - - it was all over his shirt. It was

14 on his feet and his shoes. It was everywhere.

15 Q

16 A

Did you say anything to him?

Yes. I said, "Do you realize that you are covered in

17 blood? Get off of me."

18 Q

19 A

And when you said that, what happened next?

He started -- he was like, "Oh, wow, I am." You know,

20 he was just kind of, again, really weird-acting, and he

21 says, "Oh, wow, I am." And he started to move away, and

22 they started proceeding down --

23

24

25

MS. WILKENS: Objection, narrative.


MR. HILE: Okay.


25

1 Q After they then came through and around the bar, what

2 did they do or say to you?

3 A Well, one of them came around and he kind of put his

4 arm around the chair and myself, and put his arm around the

5 other chair and this woman, and he was allover her, but, in

6 the interim, because the chairs were close, he was getting

7 allover me, and he had this allover him. So I backed --

8 Q Now, let me ask you about that. What did you see that

9 he had on him?

10 A He had blood all over him.

11 Q Tell us where you saw the blood on him.

12 A All over him. It was on his arms. It was all over his

13 face. It was on his - - it was all over his shirt. It was

14 on his feet and his shoes. It was everywhere.

15 Q

16 A

Did you say anything to him?

Yes. I said, "Do you realize that you are covered in

17 blood? Get off of me."

18 Q

19 A

And when you said that, what happened next?

He started -- he was like, "Oh, wow, I am." You know,

20 he was just kind of, again, really weird-acting, and he

21 says, "Oh, wow, I am." And he started to move away, and

22 they started proceeding down --

23

24

25

MS. WILKENS: Objection, narrative.


MR. HILE: Okay.


1 THE WITNESS: What's a narrative?

2 BY MR. HILE:

3 Q Where did they go after you said that to them?

4 A They headed down the other end of the towards the

5 waitress station and then on down.

6 Q Okay. On the diagram which is in front of you, the

7 second exhibit to your declaration, Exhibit 20, can you put

8 a cross where they went after they left standing next to

9 you?

10 A Do you want me to go all the way down like this

11 (witness indicating) or just -- they went down this way

12 (witness indicating)

13 Q

14 A

15 Q

An arrow will be great. All right.

Okay. An arrow. Okay.

NOw, did you see whether they were served any alcohol

16 at that time?

17 A

18 Q

No, I didn't.

Did you see --

19 A In fact, I don't think they were going to serve them.

20 Q Did you see whether they left the bar sometime after

21 that?

22 A I remember seeing the lady doing this (witness

23 indicating)

24 Q Okay.

25 A Like, in other words, I believe it meant "You need to

26


1 THE WITNESS: What's a narrative?

2 BY MR. HILE:

3 Q Where did they go after you said that to them?

4 A They headed down the other end of the towards the

5 waitress station and then on down.

6 Q Okay. On the diagram which is in front of you, the

7 second exhibit to your declaration, Exhibit 20, can you put

8 a cross where they went after they left standing next to

9 you?

10 A Do you want me to go all the way down like this

11 (witness indicating) or just -- they went down this way

12 (witness indicating)

13 Q

14 A

15 Q

An arrow will be great. All right.

Okay. An arrow. Okay.

NOw, did you see whether they were served any alcohol

16 at that time?

17 A

18 Q

No, I didn't.

Did you see --

19 A In fact, I don't think they were going to serve them.

20 Q Did you see whether they left the bar sometime after

21 that?

22 A I remember seeing the lady doing this (witness

23 indicating)

24 Q Okay.

25 A Like, in other words, I believe it meant "You need to

26


27

1 leave."

2 Q Who was it who did that?

3 A The lady working there. I donrt remember her name.

4 Q Did they leave at that time?

5 A They were heading out the door r because some big guy

6 got up. He had a cowboy hat on r and he wasr like r going to

7 handle itr and then me and Mary and everybodYr we got up.

8 We decided r "Letrs gOr" and we decided -- we started walking

9 out. We went out the back door.

10 Q Now r when you say "the back door r " can you describe on

11 your diagram r which is Exhibit B to Petitionerrs Exhibit 20 r

12 which back door yourre talking about?

13 A

14 Q

15 A

16 Q

The back door at the back of the bar.

Is that up near where the band was playing?

Yes. I donrt remember the band playingr but yes.

Now r at any time while you were there r did you see any

17 police or law enforcement people?

18 A As I was leaving r I looked back over my shoulder r and

19 there was a uniformed brown star here at the door r not

20 inside the barr right outsider because the door was propped

21 open.

22 Q

23 A

24 Q

25 A

And which door are you now referring to?

The front door.

Front door?

Because you had to walk right from where we were. You

Echo Reporting r Inc.

27

1 leave."

2 Q Who was it who did that?

3 A The lady working there. I donrt remember her name.

4 Q Did they leave at that time?

5 A They were heading out the door r because some big guy

6 got up. He had a cowboy hat on r and he wasr like r going to

7 handle itr and then me and Mary and everybodYr we got up.

8 We decided r "Letrs gOr" and we decided -- we started walking

9 out. We went out the back door.

10 Q Now r when you say "the back door r " can you describe on

11 your diagram r which is Exhibit B to Petitionerrs Exhibit 20 r

12 which back door yourre talking about?

13 A

14 Q

15 A

16 Q

The back door at the back of the bar.

Is that up near where the band was playing?

Yes. I donrt remember the band playingr but yes.

Now r at any time while you were there r did you see any

17 police or law enforcement people?

18 A As I was leaving r I looked back over my shoulder r and

19 there was a uniformed brown star here at the door r not

20 inside the barr right outsider because the door was propped

21 open.

22 Q

23 A

24 Q

25 A

And which door are you now referring to?

The front door.

Front door?

Because you had to walk right from where we were. You

Echo Reporting r Inc.

1 had to walk by the front door. So I just kind of glanced

2 up/ like/ "Whoa." You know/ that was a weird thing. And I

3 looked/ and there was a police officer there.

4 Q Did you call the police that night?

5 A No. No. I figured he was there.

6 Q Now/ we/ve been describing the evening of June 4th/

7 1983/ the night of the murders. When did you learn about

8 the fact of the murders?

9 A The next morning.

10 Q How did you find out about it?

11 A The whole community heard about it.

12 Q How did you find out about it/ specifically? Do you

13 recall?

14 A

15 Q

The television/ and a friend called me.

Were you able to see any of the activity at the Ryens/

16 residence?

17 A You could see a lot of people meandering around/ yes.

18 Q Were you seeing that from your home?

19 A Yes/ I was.

20 Q Did you - -

21 A But I must reiterate/ I used binoculars.

22 Q Okay. Did you talk to Mary Mellon at all about the

23 fact of the murders?

24 A Yes. I said/ "Mary/ could it have possibly been those

25 guys?"

28

Echo Reporting/ Inc.

1 had to walk by the front door. So I just kind of glanced

2 up/ like/ "Whoa." You know/ that was a weird thing. And I

3 looked/ and there was a police officer there.

4 Q Did you call the police that night?

5 A No. No. I figured he was there.

6 Q Now/ we/ve been describing the evening of June 4th/

7 1983/ the night of the murders. When did you learn about

8 the fact of the murders?

9 A The next morning.

10 Q How did you find out about it?

11 A The whole community heard about it.

12 Q How did you find out about it/ specifically? Do you

13 recall?

14 A

15 Q

The television/ and a friend called me.

Were you able to see any of the activity at the Ryens/

16 residence?

17 A You could see a lot of people meandering around/ yes.

18 Q Were you seeing that from your home?

19 A Yes/ I was.

20 Q Did you - -

21 A But I must reiterate/ I used binoculars.

22 Q Okay. Did you talk to Mary Mellon at all about the

23 fact of the murders?

24 A Yes. I said/ "Mary/ could it have possibly been those

25 guys?"

28


1 Q And what did she say, if you recall?

2 A "Maybe." I mean, we were just like, "Oh, my gosh."

3 You know, I mean, think about it. Wouldn't you think the

4 same thing?

5 Q Now, did the police ever contact you?

6 A Never.

7 Q Did anyone representing the defendant in that case,

8 Kevin Cooper, ever contact you?

9 A

10

Why would they?

11

12

13 question.

14

15

16

17

THE COURT: Answer the question.

THE WITNESS: No.

THE COURT: Listen to the question and answer the

THE WITNESS: Okay.

THE COURT: Can you answer the question?

MR. HILE: Yes.

THE WITNESS: Yes. No, no one ever contacted me.

18 BY MR. HILE:

29

19 Q Now, when was the first time that you became aware that

20 Kevin Cooper had been sentenced to death?

21 A When I moved to Nevada City, I moved back to

22 California. I was sitting on the couch, and I heard that --

23 actually, I wasn't paying much attention, but then I heard

24 "Chino Hills murder," and I turned to look at the television

25 set, and I knew it was that whole ordeal, and I'm going,


1 Q And what did she say, if you recall?

2 A "Maybe." I mean, we were just like, "Oh, my gosh."

3 You know, I mean, think about it. Wouldn't you think the

4 same thing?

5 Q Now, did the police ever contact you?

6 A Never.

7 Q Did anyone representing the defendant in that case,

8 Kevin Cooper, ever contact you?

9 A

10

Why would they?

11

12

13 question.

14

15

16

17

THE COURT: Answer the question.

THE WITNESS: No.

THE COURT: Listen to the question and answer the

THE WITNESS: Okay.

THE COURT: Can you answer the question?

MR. HILE: Yes.

THE WITNESS: Yes. No, no one ever contacted me.

18 BY MR. HILE:

29

19 Q Now, when was the first time that you became aware that

20 Kevin Cooper had been sentenced to death?

21 A When I moved to Nevada City, I moved back to

22 California. I was sitting on the couch, and I heard that --

23 actually, I wasn't paying much attention, but then I heard

24 "Chino Hills murder," and I turned to look at the television

25 set, and I knew it was that whole ordeal, and I'm going,


1 "Oh, wow."

2 Q Okay. Now, let me ask you to place that in time. Was

3 that this year, last year?

4 A It was February, this year.

5 Q February of 2004?

6 A Uh-huh.

7 Q Okay. I want to ask you some questions before I get

8 into that, a little bit. Going back now to the 1980s, when

9 did you leave Chino Hills?

10 A I left Chino Hills probably -- shortly after that,

11 about a year later after that.

12 Q Where did you move to?

13 A I moved to the high desert.

14 Q And specifically where was it in the high desert?

15 A Apple Valley, out in the sticks.

16 Q How long did you live there?

30

17 A I lived there for a year, until my house was ready, and

18 then I moved to Phelan

19 Q

20 A

21 Q

22 A

23 Q

24 A

25 Q

Is that also in

and I stayed there 10 years.

Okay. And after that, where did you live?

I moved to Oregon.

How long were you in Oregon?

About five years.

And then when did you move to Nevada City?


1 "Oh, wow."

2 Q Okay. Now, let me ask you to place that in time. Was

3 that this year, last year?

4 A It was February, this year.

5 Q February of 2004?

6 A Uh-huh.

7 Q Okay. I want to ask you some questions before I get

8 into that, a little bit. Going back now to the 1980s, when

9 did you leave Chino Hills?

10 A I left Chino Hills probably -- shortly after that,

11 about a year later after that.

12 Q Where did you move to?

13 A I moved to the high desert.

14 Q And specifically where was it in the high desert?

15 A Apple Valley, out in the sticks.

16 Q How long did you live there?

30

17 A I lived there for a year, until my house was ready, and

18 then I moved to Phelan

19 Q

20 A

21 Q

22 A

23 Q

24 A

25 Q

Is that also in

and I stayed there 10 years.

Okay. And after that, where did you live?

I moved to Oregon.

How long were you in Oregon?

About five years.

And then when did you move to Nevada City?


31

1 A I moved first to Grass Valley, and that would have been

2 in 1999.

3 Q Okay. Now, let me take you back, then, to February of

4 this year, when you saw the report on the television. Were

5 you with anybody at the time when you saw that report?

6 A I was by myself, but my daughter was asleep upstairs.

7 Q Okay. And what did you do when you saw that report?

8 A I was kind of like, "Well, I wonder why they're putting

9 that fellow to death when it's quite possible those other

10 two did it?" You know, "I wonder what ever happened" is

11 what I'm thinking. I was thinking, "Well, they must have

12 found him guilty."

13 Q Now, at that point, without saying what you talked

14 about, did you talk to anyone about what you should do?

15 A Well, I went upstairs, and I told my little girl -- I

16 said, "You know, there's this guy they're going to put to

17 death here. It's just kind of bizarre that -- you know, I

18 wonder what happened to those people."

19 I told her a little bit about what had happened, and

20 she said, "Mom, don't you think you should do -- you should

21 call someone?" And I said, "Well, honey, I don't know. I

22 don't know that they did it, you know." She said, "Well,

23 Mom, I think that you should probably call someone and at

24 least tell them what you know."

25 I said, "Well" -- then I talked to my older daughter


31

1 A I moved first to Grass Valley, and that would have been

2 in 1999.

3 Q Okay. Now, let me take you back, then, to February of

4 this year, when you saw the report on the television. Were

5 you with anybody at the time when you saw that report?

6 A I was by myself, but my daughter was asleep upstairs.

7 Q Okay. And what did you do when you saw that report?

8 A I was kind of like, "Well, I wonder why they're putting

9 that fellow to death when it's quite possible those other

10 two did it?" You know, "I wonder what ever happened" is

11 what I'm thinking. I was thinking, "Well, they must have

12 found him guilty."

13 Q Now, at that point, without saying what you talked

14 about, did you talk to anyone about what you should do?

15 A Well, I went upstairs, and I told my little girl -- I

16 said, "You know, there's this guy they're going to put to

17 death here. It's just kind of bizarre that -- you know, I

18 wonder what happened to those people."

19 I told her a little bit about what had happened, and

20 she said, "Mom, don't you think you should do -- you should

21 call someone?" And I said, "Well, honey, I don't know. I

22 don't know that they did it, you know." She said, "Well,

23 Mom, I think that you should probably call someone and at

24 least tell them what you know."

25 I said, "Well" -- then I talked to my older daughter


-.

-~.

32

1 and my son, and I said, "What do you guys think, you know?"

2 And they said, "Mom, you should probably do the right thing

3 and call. At least tell them what you folks -- what you saw

4 that night."

5 Q And what are you referring to when you're talking about

6 "what you saw that night"?

7 A The guys all covered in blood.

8 Q Now, did you then contact someone?

9 A Well, I know that they had mentioned on the television

10 that Arnold Schwarzenegger, our new governor, was going to

11 be --

12 THE COURT: Could you just answer the question.

13 Did you contact

14 BY MR. HILE:

15 Q

16 A

17 Q

18 A

19 Q

20 A

Yes. Who did you contact, Ms. Slonaker?

Arnold Schwarzenegger's office.

Okay. And just who did you talk to there?

His secretary.

And what did you tell her?

I told her that I would like to speak with Arnold

21 Schwarzenegger about this, that there quite possible (sic)

22 that, if the one man did it, maybe there were others that

23 also did it with him, or by themselves.

24 Q

25 A

And what were you told by the governor's office?

That he would call me or contact me.


-.

-~.

32

1 and my son, and I said, "What do you guys think, you know?"

2 And they said, "Mom, you should probably do the right thing

3 and call. At least tell them what you folks -- what you saw

4 that night."

5 Q And what are you referring to when you're talking about

6 "what you saw that night"?

7 A The guys all covered in blood.

8 Q Now, did you then contact someone?

9 A Well, I know that they had mentioned on the television

10 that Arnold Schwarzenegger, our new governor, was going to

11 be --

12 THE COURT: Could you just answer the question.

13 Did you contact

14 BY MR. HILE:

15 Q

16 A

17 Q

18 A

19 Q

20 A

Yes. Who did you contact, Ms. Slonaker?

Arnold Schwarzenegger's office.

Okay. And just who did you talk to there?

His secretary.

And what did you tell her?

I told her that I would like to speak with Arnold

21 Schwarzenegger about this, that there quite possible (sic)

22 that, if the one man did it, maybe there were others that

23 also did it with him, or by themselves.

24 Q

25 A

And what were you told by the governor's office?

That he would call me or contact me.


1 Q Did you receive a call back?

2 A Not one.

3 Q What did you do next with respect to trying to alert

4 someone?

5 A Well, days went by, a couple days went by, because I

6 wasn't feeling well, and then I thought, "Well, they're

7 still going to execute him." You know, I got on the

8 Internet.

9 Q Okay. Now, I'd like you to look at Exhibit 20, if you

10 would, and look at the last page of it. Can you describe

11 for the Court what that page is?

12 A It's what came up under Kevin Cooper's name on my

13 search engine.

33

14 Q And is that handwriting that is on that page -- is that

15 your handwriting?

Yes.

And what were you writing down?

16 A

17 Q

18 A Well, I was writing down different things of, like, for

19 instance, this Lanny Davis was who I figured I should

20 probably contact to say something about this, and then they

21 gave me the -- I couldn't find this name. So I finally

22 ended up going -- and I called this number, and they didn't

23 have it, and so, finally, I went on to -- I finally found

24 David Alexander's name on the --

25 Q State Bar?


1 Q Did you receive a call back?

2 A Not one.

3 Q What did you do next with respect to trying to alert

4 someone?

5 A Well, days went by, a couple days went by, because I

6 wasn't feeling well, and then I thought, "Well, they're

7 still going to execute him." You know, I got on the

8 Internet.

9 Q Okay. Now, I'd like you to look at Exhibit 20, if you

10 would, and look at the last page of it. Can you describe

11 for the Court what that page is?

12 A It's what came up under Kevin Cooper's name on my

13 search engine.

33

14 Q And is that handwriting that is on that page -- is that

15 your handwriting?

Yes.

And what were you writing down?

16 A

17 Q

18 A Well, I was writing down different things of, like, for

19 instance, this Lanny Davis was who I figured I should

20 probably contact to say something about this, and then they

21 gave me the -- I couldn't find this name. So I finally

22 ended up going -- and I called this number, and they didn't

23 have it, and so, finally, I went on to -- I finally found

24 David Alexander's name on the --

25 Q State Bar?


1 A That's it, the Bar Association.

2 Q Okay. And did you get his phone number that way?

3 A Yes.

4 Q Okay. Did you call Mr. Alexander?

5 A Yes, I did.

6 Q When did you call him?

7 A It was probably two or three days later, after hearing

8 about it.

9 Q Okay. With reference to the date of your declaration,

10 when was it?

11 A

12 Q

Probably around the 3rd, 4th, 3rd or 4th.

Now, had anybody from the defense side of the case

13 contacted you before you called Mr. Alexander?

14 A No.

15 Q Had you discussed calling Mr. Alexander with Mary

16 Wolfe?

17 A No. I hadn't seen Mary in many, many years.

34

18 Q Let me ask you about that, then. When did you last see

19 Mary Mellon Wolfe?

20 A Gosh. It must have been 15 years or more.

21 Q When was the last time you had contact with her?

22 A About that long.

23 Q Okay. Did you see her this morning?

24 A

25 Q

Yes. It was good to see her.

Let me ask, when you talked to Mr. Alexander, did you


1 A That's it, the Bar Association.

2 Q Okay. And did you get his phone number that way?

3 A Yes.

4 Q Okay. Did you call Mr. Alexander?

5 A Yes, I did.

6 Q When did you call him?

7 A It was probably two or three days later, after hearing

8 about it.

9 Q Okay. With reference to the date of your declaration,

10 when was it?

11 A

12 Q

Probably around the 3rd, 4th, 3rd or 4th.

Now, had anybody from the defense side of the case

13 contacted you before you called Mr. Alexander?

14 A No.

15 Q Had you discussed calling Mr. Alexander with Mary

16 Wolfe?

17 A No. I hadn't seen Mary in many, many years.

34

18 Q Let me ask you about that, then. When did you last see

19 Mary Mellon Wolfe?

20 A Gosh. It must have been 15 years or more.

21 Q When was the last time you had contact with her?

22 A About that long.

23 Q Okay. Did you see her this morning?

24 A

25 Q

Yes. It was good to see her.

Let me ask, when you talked to Mr. Alexander, did you


35

1 then talk to Mary Wolfe about what you had seen?

2 A No. I didntt have a number or an address for her.

3 Q Did you tell Mr. Alexander that youtd been in the bar

4 that night with Mary Wolfe?

5 A Yes.

6 Q Let me ask YOU t just brieflYt to tell the Court why you

7 decided to contact the governor and then Mr. Alexander about

8 this.

9 A Wellt my children thought that I should probably say

10 something t because they felt that t if I didntt t and this man

11 went to death t that I would always wonder t because t if he

12 did itt wellt he definitelYt you know t needs to be held

13 accountable t and if he didntt t and they found later on that

14 he hadnttt how would I have felt? Would I have lived with

15 this well? Probably not.

16 MR. HILE: Your Honor t I offer into evidence

17 Exhibit 20.

18 THE COURT: 20 is received.

19

20

MR. HILE: Thank you t your Honor.

THE COURT: Now t 20 t I guess wetre -- itts already

21 a part of the record t so itts received.

22

23

24

25

MS. WILKENS: Itts fine t your Honor.


THE COURT: Thank you.

MR. HILE: I have no more questions at this time.


35

1 then talk to Mary Wolfe about what you had seen?

2 A No. I didntt have a number or an address for her.

3 Q Did you tell Mr. Alexander that youtd been in the bar

4 that night with Mary Wolfe?

5 A Yes.

6 Q Let me ask YOU t just brieflYt to tell the Court why you

7 decided to contact the governor and then Mr. Alexander about

8 this.

9 A Wellt my children thought that I should probably say

10 something t because they felt that t if I didntt t and this man

11 went to death t that I would always wonder t because t if he

12 did itt wellt he definitelYt you know t needs to be held

13 accountable t and if he didntt t and they found later on that

14 he hadnttt how would I have felt? Would I have lived with

15 this well? Probably not.

16 MR. HILE: Your Honor t I offer into evidence

17 Exhibit 20.


19

20


THE COURT: Now t 20 t I guess wetre -- itts already

21 a part of the record t so itts received.

22

23

24

25

MS. WILKENS: Itts fine t your Honor.



MR. HILE: I have no more questions at this time.


1

2

3

4

5

6

Thank you, Ms. Slonaker.

THE WITNESS: You're welcome.


Cross?

MS. WILKENS: Yes, your Honor.

THE COURT: Does anybody -- just a sec. Does my

7 staff need a break or are we okay?

8

9

10

11

12

13

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: No, your Honor.

THE COURT: Are you okay?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Fine.

THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead.

MS. WILKENS: Thank you, your Honor.

CROSS EXAMINATION

14 BY MS. WILKENS:

15 Q

16 A

17 Q

Good morning, Ms. Slonaker.

Good morning.

Now, the declaration that you signed, did you in fact

18 sign it on the date that's indicated on the signature page?

19 A The 7th, yes.

20 Q That would be February 7th?

21 A Uh-huh.

22 Q Did you write the declaration yourself?

23 A No, I did not.

24 Q Who wrote it for you, if you know?

25 A Katherine Ikeda.

36


1

2

3

4

5

6

Thank you, Ms. Slonaker.

THE WITNESS: You're welcome.


Cross?


THE COURT: Does anybody -- just a sec. Does my

7 staff need a break or are we okay?

8

9

10

11

12

13

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: No, your Honor.

THE COURT: Are you okay?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Fine.

THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead.


CROSS EXAMINATION

14 BY MS. WILKENS:

15 Q

16 A

17 Q

Good morning, Ms. Slonaker.

Good morning.

Now, the declaration that you signed, did you in fact

18 sign it on the date that's indicated on the signature page?

19 A The 7th, yes.

20 Q That would be February 7th?

21 A Uh-huh.

22 Q Did you write the declaration yourself?

23 A No, I did not.

24 Q Who wrote it for you, if you know?

25 A Katherine Ikeda.

36


37

1 Q I'm sorry?

2 A Katherine Ikeda and David Alexander.

3 Q Do you know how to spell -- it's Ikeda?

4 A I'm going to take a good guess at I-K-A-D-A.

5 Q And when did you first speak with Katherine Ikeda?

6 A When they returned my phone call from the secretary,

7 that I had left with the secretary.

8 Q And you only spoke with her by telephone. Is that

9 correct?

10 A At first.

11 Q Initially you spoke with her by phone?

12 A Uh-huh.

13 Q Okay. Did she come and visit you in person?

14 A Yes, she did.

15 Q And when was the first time she came to visit you in

16 person?

17 A That same day.

18 Q When she brought the declaration?

19 A When I called.

20 Q Okay. So you telephone, you spoke to her on the phone?

21 A No. I called their office. I got a secretary.

22 Q Okay.

23 A Then either - - I think it was David called me back, and

24 Katherine -- I'm sorry. Excuse me. Katherine called me

25 back and said, "Might we come up?" And I said, "Where are


37

1 Q I'm sorry?

2 A Katherine Ikeda and David Alexander.

3 Q Do you know how to spell -- it's Ikeda?

4 A I'm going to take a good guess at I-K-A-D-A.

5 Q And when did you first speak with Katherine Ikeda?

6 A When they returned my phone call from the secretary,

7 that I had left with the secretary.

8 Q And you only spoke with her by telephone. Is that

9 correct?

10 A At first.

11 Q Initially you spoke with her by phone?

12 A Uh-huh.

13 Q Okay. Did she come and visit you in person?

14 A Yes, she did.

15 Q And when was the first time she came to visit you in

16 person?

17 A That same day.

18 Q When she brought the declaration?

19 A When I called.

20 Q Okay. So you telephone, you spoke to her on the phone?

21 A No. I called their office. I got a secretary.

22 Q Okay.

23 A Then either - - I think it was David called me back, and

24 Katherine -- I'm sorry. Excuse me. Katherine called me

25 back and said, "Might we come up?" And I said, "Where are


38

1 you coming from?" They said, "San Francisco." I thought,

2 "Whoa, it's a long ways." But they were there. They showed

3 up.

4 Q All right. So, the same day, Mr. Alexander and

5 Ms. Ikeda came to your home in Nevada City. Is that

6 correct?

7 A Yes.

8 Q All right. And they sat down and they spoke with you?

Yes.

And were they taking notes?

Yes.

9 A

10 Q

11 A

12 Q

13 A

14 Q

15 A

And how were they taking notes, by hand?

By hand and computer.

All right. Who was writing notes by hand?

Probably Katherine -- probably David, because Katherine

16 was on the computer.

17 Q All right. So Ms. Ikeda was using a computer, and

18 Mr. Alexander was taking notes by hand, and what did you

19 speak to them about?

20 A What I had seen that night.

21 Q Okay. And did they provide you with a declaration at

22 that time?

23 A Yes, they did.

24 Q So they didn't leave your home and come back with a

25 typed declaration?


38

1 you coming from?" They said, "San Francisco." I thought,

2 "Whoa, it's a long ways." But they were there. They showed

3 up.

4 Q All right. So, the same day, Mr. Alexander and

5 Ms. Ikeda came to your home in Nevada City. Is that

6 correct?

7 A Yes.

8 Q All right. And they sat down and they spoke with you?

Yes.

And were they taking notes?

Yes.

9 A

10 Q

11 A

12 Q

13 A

14 Q

15 A

And how were they taking notes, by hand?

By hand and computer.

All right. Who was writing notes by hand?

Probably Katherine -- probably David, because Katherine

16 was on the computer.

17 Q All right. So Ms. Ikeda was using a computer, and

18 Mr. Alexander was taking notes by hand, and what did you

19 speak to them about?

20 A What I had seen that night.

21 Q Okay. And did they provide you with a declaration at

22 that time?

23 A Yes, they did.

24 Q So they didn't leave your home and come back with a

25 typed declaration?


1 A

2 Q

3 A

4 Q

5 A

6 Q

7 A

8 Q

9 A

NOt they did not.

Okay. Did they have a printer with them?

Yes t they did. Well t actuallYt they bought one.

So they went out and purchased a printer?

Yes.

And they came back and printed out a declaration?

Yes t mat am.

Did both of them leave to go purchase the printer?

No.

Okay. Who went to purchase the printer?

David.

All right. Mr. Alexander left to purchase a printer?

Yes.

And Ms. Ikeda remained behind?

Yes.

39

10 Q

11 A

12 Q

13 A

14 Q

15 A

16 Q And how long did it take Mr. Alexander to go and secure

17 a printer?

18 A About -- went to Staples t Itm sure. Probably takes

19 about 20 minutest half-hour at the most.

20 Q How long were Mr. Alexander and Ms. Ikeda in your home

21 that day?

22 A Probably around four hours.

23 Q And during that four hours t did you discuss anything

24 other than what you observed in the bar that night?

25 A No.


1 A

2 Q

3 A

4 Q

5 A

6 Q

7 A

8 Q

9 A

NOt they did not.

Okay. Did they have a printer with them?

Yes t they did. Well t actuallYt they bought one.

So they went out and purchased a printer?

Yes.

And they came back and printed out a declaration?

Yes t mat am.

Did both of them leave to go purchase the printer?

No.

Okay. Who went to purchase the printer?

David.

All right. Mr. Alexander left to purchase a printer?

Yes.

And Ms. Ikeda remained behind?

Yes.

39

10 Q

11 A

12 Q

13 A

14 Q

15 A

16 Q And how long did it take Mr. Alexander to go and secure

17 a printer?

18 A About -- went to Staples t Itm sure. Probably takes

19 about 20 minutest half-hour at the most.

20 Q How long were Mr. Alexander and Ms. Ikeda in your home

21 that day?

22 A Probably around four hours.

23 Q And during that four hours t did you discuss anything

24 other than what you observed in the bar that night?

25 A No.


40

1 Q Did they tell you anything about Mr. Cooperts case?

2 A NOt not at all.

3 Q Did they discuss with you at all the impending

4 execution of Mr. Cooper?

5 A No. I already knew about that.

6 Q All right. So there was no discussion that Mr. Cooper

7 was scheduled to be executed in about 48 hours?

8 A I knew that.

9 Q All right. You already knew that?

10 A Yes t mat am.

11 Q So you didntt discuss it with them?

12 THE COURT: Listen to the question.

13 BY MS. WILKENS:

14 Q You did not discuss the impending execution of

15 Mr. Cooper with either Mr. Alexander or Ms. Ikeda?

16 A No.

17 Q Is that correct? Have you read anything about Kevin

18 Cooper on the Internet?

19 A

20 Q

Yes t I have.

All right. When did you first read about Mr. Cooper on

21 the Internet?

22 A After all this came to lightt I went in and put "Kevin

23 Cooper" in the search engine t and huge Internet site came

24 up.

25 Q All right. When you say "all of this came to light t "


40

1 Q Did they tell you anything about Mr. Cooperts case?

2 A NOt not at all.

3 Q Did they discuss with you at all the impending

4 execution of Mr. Cooper?

5 A No. I already knew about that.

6 Q All right. So there was no discussion that Mr. Cooper

7 was scheduled to be executed in about 48 hours?

8 A I knew that.

9 Q All right. You already knew that?

10 A Yes t mat am.

11 Q So you didntt discuss it with them?


13 BY MS. WILKENS:

14 Q You did not discuss the impending execution of

15 Mr. Cooper with either Mr. Alexander or Ms. Ikeda?

16 A No.

17 Q Is that correct? Have you read anything about Kevin

18 Cooper on the Internet?

19 A

20 Q

Yes t I have.

All right. When did you first read about Mr. Cooper on

21 the Internet?

22 A After all this came to lightt I went in and put "Kevin

23 Cooper" in the search engine t and huge Internet site came

24 up.

25 Q All right. When you say "all of this came to light t "


1 are you referencing your learning about the impending

2 execution?

3 A Yes.

4 Q And did you go on the Internet prior to contacting

5 Mr. Alexander?

6 A No - - well, only to find them.

7 Q All right. So the page that's attached to your

8 declaration that's a printout from the Internet, you didn't

9 look at anything other than that one page?

10 A No.

11 Q All right. When did you look further on the Internet

12 about Kevin Cooper?

13 A After they had left. I was kind of sitting there, and

14 I thought, "You know what? I'm going to look up this guy

15 and see what he's all about."

16 Q All right. When you looked up Kevin Cooper on the

17 Internet, did you read an article that was purportedly

18 written by Mr. Cooper about coming within four hours of

19 execution?

20 A I have read that.

21 Q When did you read it?

22 A After it had been halted.

23 Q All right. So, after the execution was stayed, you

24 read that article?

25 A Yes, indeed.

41


1 are you referencing your learning about the impending

2 execution?

3 A Yes.

4 Q And did you go on the Internet prior to contacting

5 Mr. Alexander?

6 A No - - well, only to find them.

7 Q All right. So the page that's attached to your

8 declaration that's a printout from the Internet, you didn't

9 look at anything other than that one page?

10 A No.

11 Q All right. When did you look further on the Internet

12 about Kevin Cooper?

13 A After they had left. I was kind of sitting there, and

14 I thought, "You know what? I'm going to look up this guy

15 and see what he's all about."

16 Q All right. When you looked up Kevin Cooper on the

17 Internet, did you read an article that was purportedly

18 written by Mr. Cooper about coming within four hours of

19 execution?

20 A I have read that.

21 Q When did you read it?

22 A After it had been halted.

23 Q All right. So, after the execution was stayed, you

24 read that article?

25 A Yes, indeed.

41


42

1 Q Why did you read that article?

2 A I don't know. Information.

3 Q Now, when you spoke to Mr. Alexander and Ms. Ikeda on

4 February 7th, did they tell you that Mr. Cooper was going to

5 receive a stay and the case was going to be reopened?

6 A No, they didn't say that.

7 Q Did you tell Detective Cavanaugh, quote, "These folks

8 pretty much told me that Kevin Cooper was going to get a

9 stay and that they were going to reopen the case"? Did you

10 tell Detective Cavanaugh that?

11 A No, I did not.

12 Q You never said that?

13 A I do not remember saying anything to that

14 Q When you spoke with Mr. Alexander and - -

15 A - - because we didn't know that.

16 Q When you spoke with Mr. Alexander and Ms. Ikeda on

17 February 7th, did they make any mention to you of a stay of

18 execution?

19 A They said they would like to see him get a stay, to

20 retry it.

21 Q

22 A

23 Q

Okay. And did you ask any questions about the process?

(No audible response.)

Were you contacted by Sergeant Cavanaugh of the San

24 Bernardino Sheriff's Office?

25 A Yes, I was.


42

1 Q Why did you read that article?

2 A I don't know. Information.

3 Q Now, when you spoke to Mr. Alexander and Ms. Ikeda on

4 February 7th, did they tell you that Mr. Cooper was going to

5 receive a stay and the case was going to be reopened?

6 A No, they didn't say that.

7 Q Did you tell Detective Cavanaugh, quote, "These folks

8 pretty much told me that Kevin Cooper was going to get a

9 stay and that they were going to reopen the case"? Did you

10 tell Detective Cavanaugh that?

11 A No, I did not.

12 Q You never said that?

13 A I do not remember saying anything to that

14 Q When you spoke with Mr. Alexander and - -

15 A - - because we didn't know that.

16 Q When you spoke with Mr. Alexander and Ms. Ikeda on

17 February 7th, did they make any mention to you of a stay of

18 execution?

19 A They said they would like to see him get a stay, to

20 retry it.

21 Q

22 A

23 Q

Okay. And did you ask any questions about the process?


Were you contacted by Sergeant Cavanaugh of the San

24 Bernardino Sheriff's Office?

25 A Yes, I was.


1 Q Did he interview you at your home?

2 A Yes l he did.

3 Q Now l prior to being interviewed by Mr. Cavanaugh and

4 subsequent to providing your declaration l have you had

5 further contact with Mr. Alexander?

6 A No.

7 Q All right. So you/ve never spoken to Mr. Alexander

8 between the time that he came to your home on the 7th and

9 when Sergeant Cavanaugh came to interview you. Is that

10 correct?

11 A That is correct. lIve talked to Katherine once.

12 Q And what did you talk to Katherine about?

43

13 A I wanted to know if I was going to have to do all this.

14 Q What do you mean by "all of this"?

15 A WeIll this l where 11m at right now.

16 Q You were asking if you would be called to testify?

17 A Yes.

18 Q And why did you ask if you/d be called to testify?

19 A I don/t know. Just to see where 11m going in life l I

20 guess.

21 Q Now l do you recall when Sergeant Cavanaugh came to your

22 home and interviewed you?

Pardon me? 23 A

24 Q Do you recall when Sergeant Cavanaugh came to your home

25 and interviewed you?


1 Q Did he interview you at your home?

2 A Yes l he did.

3 Q Now l prior to being interviewed by Mr. Cavanaugh and

4 subsequent to providing your declaration l have you had

5 further contact with Mr. Alexander?

6 A No.

7 Q All right. So you/ve never spoken to Mr. Alexander

8 between the time that he came to your home on the 7th and

9 when Sergeant Cavanaugh came to interview you. Is that

10 correct?

11 A That is correct. lIve talked to Katherine once.

12 Q And what did you talk to Katherine about?

43

13 A I wanted to know if I was going to have to do all this.

14 Q What do you mean by "all of this"?

15 A WeIll this l where 11m at right now.

16 Q You were asking if you would be called to testify?

17 A Yes.

18 Q And why did you ask if you/d be called to testify?

19 A I don/t know. Just to see where 11m going in life l I

20 guess.

21 Q Now l do you recall when Sergeant Cavanaugh came to your

22 home and interviewed you?

Pardon me? 23 A

24 Q Do you recall when Sergeant Cavanaugh came to your home

25 and interviewed you?


44

1 A Yes.

2 Q When was that?

3 A That was about a month and a half ago.

4 Q All right. So that would be in April?

5 A Yes.

6 Q All right. Since Sergeant Cavanaugh contacted you and

7 interviewed you, have you spoken to Mr. Alexander?

8 A Not at all.

9 Q Okay. You didn't speak to Mr. Alexander prior to

10 today?

11 A No. I've spoken with Mr. Hile.

12 Q Okay. And when did you speak with Mr. Hile?

13 A Since the officer was there.

14 Q Okay. So, after Sergeant Cavanaugh interviewed you,

15 you spoke with Mr. Hile?

16 A Yes, because he said he had taken over the whole thing,

17 and that I would be

18 Q Did he contact you or did you contact him?

19 A He contacted me.

20 Q Okay. And when did he contact you?

21 A Gosh. Just a couple, three weeks, four weeks ago.

22 Q Okay. And did he talk to you about your testimony here

23 today?

24 A

25 Q

No.

Why did he contact you?


44

1 A Yes.

2 Q When was that?

3 A That was about a month and a half ago.

4 Q All right. So that would be in April?

5 A Yes.

6 Q All right. Since Sergeant Cavanaugh contacted you and

7 interviewed you, have you spoken to Mr. Alexander?

8 A Not at all.

9 Q Okay. You didn't speak to Mr. Alexander prior to

10 today?

11 A No. I've spoken with Mr. Hile.

12 Q Okay. And when did you speak with Mr. Hile?

13 A Since the officer was there.

14 Q Okay. So, after Sergeant Cavanaugh interviewed you,

15 you spoke with Mr. Hile?

16 A Yes, because he said he had taken over the whole thing,

17 and that I would be

18 Q Did he contact you or did you contact him?

19 A He contacted me.

20 Q Okay. And when did he contact you?

21 A Gosh. Just a couple, three weeks, four weeks ago.

22 Q Okay. And did he talk to you about your testimony here

23 today?

24 A

25 Q

No.

Why did he contact you?


45

1 A Just basically, you know, making sure that I -- what I

2 had written to be true and correct, pretty much.

3 Q All right. So did he go over your declaration with

4 you?

5 A Yes, just asking me, "Did everything you say in here is

6 true and correct?"

7 Q Okay. And did you have --

8 A And the only thing I said, and I told the officer,

9 also, that was incorrect was that woman next to us did not

10 say, "Get off of me." I said that.

11 Q All right. And did you have your declaration in front

12 of you when you spoke with Mr. Hile?

13 A No.

14 Q All right. So you were asked about your declaration,

15 but you didn't have a copy --

16 A In fact, the day I had it is the day I put it away, and

17 I haven't looked at it since.

18 Q

19 A

20 Q

All right. Were you speaking to Mr. Hile in person -

On the telephone.

about your declaration? Okay. It was on the

21 telephone, and he was asking about your declaration, and you

22 didn't have a copy of it?

23 A I didn't even know where it was, tell the truth. I put

24 it away and never looked at it again.

25 Q Okay. Did you tell Detective Cavanaugh that "David


45

1 A Just basically, you know, making sure that I -- what I

2 had written to be true and correct, pretty much.

3 Q All right. So did he go over your declaration with

4 you?

5 A Yes, just asking me, "Did everything you say in here is

6 true and correct?"

7 Q Okay. And did you have --

8 A And the only thing I said, and I told the officer,

9 also, that was incorrect was that woman next to us did not

10 say, "Get off of me." I said that.

11 Q All right. And did you have your declaration in front

12 of you when you spoke with Mr. Hile?

13 A No.

14 Q All right. So you were asked about your declaration,

15 but you didn't have a copy --

16 A In fact, the day I had it is the day I put it away, and

17 I haven't looked at it since.

18 Q

19 A

20 Q

All right. Were you speaking to Mr. Hile in person -

On the telephone.

about your declaration? Okay. It was on the

21 telephone, and he was asking about your declaration, and you

22 didn't have a copy of it?

23 A I didn't even know where it was, tell the truth. I put

24 it away and never looked at it again.

25 Q Okay. Did you tell Detective Cavanaugh that "David


1 guy" had found Mary, and her story corroborated yours? Did

2 you tell Detective Cavanaugh that?

3 A I told him that I understand that they have found -- I

4 didn't mention David in particular. I said, "I understand

46

5 that you folks have located Mary," and was asking how -- had

6 he met her, and he had said no.

7 Q Okay. So you did not speak to Mr. Alexander about Mary

8 being located?

No.

Who did you speak to about i?

No one.

Mr. Hile?

Okay.

9 A

10 Q

11 A

12 Q

13 A

14 Q Okay. And you had not spoken to Mr. Hile until three

15 weeks ago. Is that correct?

16 A Three or four, at least.

17 Q All right. You did not tell Detective Cavanaugh in

18 April that you had been told that Mary had been located and

19 corroborated your story? You didn't tell him that?

20 A What I told him was not a specific name. I said, "I

21 understand you folks have found Mary."

22 Q How did you understand that?

23 A Because, when I called the office, they told me right

24 off the bat, right there and then, that they had found her

25 immediately.


1 guy" had found Mary, and her story corroborated yours? Did

2 you tell Detective Cavanaugh that?

3 A I told him that I understand that they have found -- I

4 didn't mention David in particular. I said, "I understand

46

5 that you folks have located Mary," and was asking how -- had

6 he met her, and he had said no.

7 Q Okay. So you did not speak to Mr. Alexander about Mary

8 being located?

No.

Who did you speak to about i?

No one.

Mr. Hile?

Okay.

9 A

10 Q

11 A

12 Q

13 A

14 Q Okay. And you had not spoken to Mr. Hile until three

15 weeks ago. Is that correct?

16 A Three or four, at least.

17 Q All right. You did not tell Detective Cavanaugh in

18 April that you had been told that Mary had been located and

19 corroborated your story? You didn't tell him that?

20 A What I told him was not a specific name. I said, "I

21 understand you folks have found Mary."

22 Q How did you understand that?

23 A Because, when I called the office, they told me right

24 off the bat, right there and then, that they had found her

25 immediately.


1 Q All right. When you say you had called

2 A And that was clear -- that was even way before this.

3 Q When you say that you called the office, are you

4 referring to Mr. Alexander's office?

5 A Yes. The day I told you I called is the day I asked,

6 "Did you find Mary?" And they said yes.

7 Q So you're talking about February 7th?

8 A February, March, yes.

9 Q All right. You indicated that you spoke to

10 Mr. Alexander on one date. That was February 7th, the same

11 day you called his office.

12 A Same day he came out.

13 Q And it's your testimony that on February 7th, on that

14 date, you were informed by someone with Mr. Alexander's

47

15 office that Mary had, in fact, been located and corroborated

16 your testimony. Is that correct?

17 A

18 Q

Yes.

Now, you indicated that you moved to Chino, I believe,

19 in 1980. Is that correct?

20 A

21 Q

Somewhere around there, yes.

All right. And you resided on Hazelwood until you

22 moved to Sandbar Street in 1982, correct?

23 A

24 Q

25 A

Correct.

And how long did you reside at Sandbar Street?

Probably around six years.


1 Q All right. When you say you had called

2 A And that was clear -- that was even way before this.

3 Q When you say that you called the office, are you

4 referring to Mr. Alexander's office?

5 A Yes. The day I told you I called is the day I asked,

6 "Did you find Mary?" And they said yes.

7 Q So you're talking about February 7th?

8 A February, March, yes.

9 Q All right. You indicated that you spoke to

10 Mr. Alexander on one date. That was February 7th, the same

11 day you called his office.

12 A Same day he came out.

13 Q And it's your testimony that on February 7th, on that

14 date, you were informed by someone with Mr. Alexander's

47

15 office that Mary had, in fact, been located and corroborated

16 your testimony. Is that correct?

17 A

18 Q

Yes.

Now, you indicated that you moved to Chino, I believe,

19 in 1980. Is that correct?

20 A

21 Q

Somewhere around there, yes.

All right. And you resided on Hazelwood until you

22 moved to Sandbar Street in 1982, correct?

23 A

24 Q

25 A

Correct.

And how long did you reside at Sandbar Street?

Probably around six years.


48

1 Q All right. So you remained in the Chino area after the

2 murders t is that correct t for six years?

3 A NOt not for six years. No. The murders didntt happen

4 until ltd been there approximately that long t about five

5 years t and then t after that t around in that timet we moved

6 up to the high desert.

7 Q All right. If I could clarifYt you lived in the Chino

8 Hills on Hazelwood t I believe you indicated t from 1980 to

9 1982.

10 A

11 Q

12 1982.

13 A

14 Q

Is that correct?

Yes.

And then you moved from Hazelwood to Sandbar Street in

Is that correct?

Yes t because we just moved right around the corner.

All right. And when do you believe that the murders

15 occurred? What year do you believe the murders occurred?

16 A

17 Q

18 A

About 1983

All right. So you were not

t84t somewhere in there.

19 Q So you were not living on Sandbar Street for several

20 years prior to the murders. Is that correct?

21 A No. I was on the Sandbar Street when those murders

22 happened.

23 Q I understand that t mat am. How long had you been living

24 on that street?

25 A About -- heck t I dontt know. A year t two years t maybe


48

1 Q All right. So you remained in the Chino area after the

2 murders t is that correct t for six years?

3 A NOt not for six years. No. The murders didntt happen

4 until ltd been there approximately that long t about five

5 years t and then t after that t around in that timet we moved

6 up to the high desert.

7 Q All right. If I could clarifYt you lived in the Chino

8 Hills on Hazelwood t I believe you indicated t from 1980 to

9 1982.

10 A

11 Q

12 1982.

13 A

14 Q

Is that correct?

Yes.

And then you moved from Hazelwood to Sandbar Street in

Is that correct?

Yes t because we just moved right around the corner.

All right. And when do you believe that the murders

15 occurred? What year do you believe the murders occurred?

16 A

17 Q

18 A

About 1983

All right. So you were not

t84t somewhere in there.

19 Q So you were not living on Sandbar Street for several

20 years prior to the murders. Is that correct?

21 A No. I was on the Sandbar Street when those murders

22 happened.

23 Q I understand that t mat am. How long had you been living

24 on that street?

25 A About -- heck t I dontt know. A year t two years t maybe


1 three,-but then we didn't move right away. We moved two or

2 three years after that.

49

3 Q I'm asking you how long you lived at the Sandbar Street

4 location prior to the murders in June of 1983.

5 A Prior to the murders?

6 Q Yes.

7 A I'm sorry. Excuse me. Probably three years.

8 Q All right. You didn't move there until 1982, and the

9 murders were in 1983.

It's 20 years ago. 10 A

11 Q Well, I appreciate that. If you moved in 1982 to

12 Sandbar Street, and the murders occurred in 1983, you

13 weren't there three years.

We'd only been there a year. 14 A

15 Q Okay. How long did you continue to live at the Sandbar

16 Street

17 A A year or two - -

18 Q after the murders?

19 A after the murders.

20 Q How long?

21 A About a year or two.

22 Q When did you leave the Chino Hills area?

23 A Litel School had just been built. Now, whatever year

24 that was

25 THE COURT: What school?


1 three,-but then we didn't move right away. We moved two or

2 three years after that.

49

3 Q I'm asking you how long you lived at the Sandbar Street

4 location prior to the murders in June of 1983.

5 A Prior to the murders?

6 Q Yes.

7 A I'm sorry. Excuse me. Probably three years.

8 Q All right. You didn't move there until 1982, and the

9 murders were in 1983.

It's 20 years ago. 10 A

11 Q Well, I appreciate that. If you moved in 1982 to

12 Sandbar Street, and the murders occurred in 1983, you

13 weren't there three years.

We'd only been there a year. 14 A

15 Q Okay. How long did you continue to live at the Sandbar

16 Street

17 A A year or two - -

18 Q after the murders?

19 A after the murders.

20 Q How long?

21 A About a year or two.

22 Q When did you leave the Chino Hills area?

23 A Litel School had just been built. Now, whatever year

24 that was

25 THE COURT: What school?


1 THE WITNESS: Litel Elementary School had just

2 been built, and my child attended that school one year, and

3 we left.

4 BY MS. WILKENS:

50

5 Q I believe you indicated that you left the Chino area in

6 1988. Is that correct?

7 A Close enough.

8 Q Well, I'm asking you.

9 A Honey, it's real hard for me to give exacts. I mean,

10 it's many years ago, but it's in that general ball park.

11 THE COURT: We're asking the date. When did you

12 leave?

13

14 date.

15 left.

16

THE WITNESS: I wish I could remember the exact

It would be really nice to remember the exact date I

THE COURT: Or the year?

17 THE WITNESS: The year would have been the year

18 after Litel Elementary School opened.

19 BY MS. WILKENS:

20 Q

21

22

How old was your

THE COURT: What grade was your daughter in?

THE WITNESS: My daughter and my son was -- my

23 daughter was in -- she went to the other school.

24 BY MS. WILKENS:

25 Q How old --


1 THE WITNESS: Litel Elementary School had just

2 been built, and my child attended that school one year, and

3 we left.

4 BY MS. WILKENS:

50

5 Q I believe you indicated that you left the Chino area in

6 1988. Is that correct?

7 A Close enough.

8 Q Well, I'm asking you.

9 A Honey, it's real hard for me to give exacts. I mean,

10 it's many years ago, but it's in that general ball park.

11 THE COURT: We're asking the date. When did you

12 leave?

13

14 date.

15 left.

16

THE WITNESS: I wish I could remember the exact

It would be really nice to remember the exact date I

THE COURT: Or the year?

17 THE WITNESS: The year would have been the year

18 after Litel Elementary School opened.

19 BY MS. WILKENS:

20 Q

21

22

How old was your

THE COURT: What grade was your daughter in?

THE WITNESS: My daughter and my son was -- my

23 daughter was in -- she went to the other school.

24 BY MS. WILKENS:

25 Q How old --


51

1 A My son went to third grade there.

2 Q How old was your son when he attended the Litel School?

3 He was in third grade. Was he eight years old?

4 A About.

5 Q Okay. What year was he eight years old in?

6 A Okay. So he was born in 1979. ' 80, ' 81, ' 82, ' 83,

7 ' 84, ' 85, about '86.

8 Q All right. Now, you were renting a room to Mary

9 Mellon. Is that correct?

10 A Yes, I was.

11 Q And when did she move into your home?

12 A When?

13 Q Yes. What year?

14 A I don't know.

15 Q When did you first meet her?

16 A At a little preschool she worked at as my children's

17 teacher.

18 Q All right. Your children were attending her school,

19 and she was a preschool teacher when you met her?

Yes. 20 A

21 Q Okay. Can you tell what year that was based on your

22 child's age?

23 A No.

24 Q Okay. You were not married when you were living on the

25 Sandbar Street address, at the time of the murders?


51

1 A My son went to third grade there.

2 Q How old was your son when he attended the Litel School?

3 He was in third grade. Was he eight years old?

4 A About.

5 Q Okay. What year was he eight years old in?

6 A Okay. So he was born in 1979. ' 80, ' 81, ' 82, ' 83,

7 ' 84, ' 85, about '86.

8 Q All right. Now, you were renting a room to Mary

9 Mellon. Is that correct?

10 A Yes, I was.

11 Q And when did she move into your home?

12 A When?

13 Q Yes. What year?

14 A I don't know.

15 Q When did you first meet her?

16 A At a little preschool she worked at as my children's

17 teacher.

18 Q All right. Your children were attending her school,

19 and she was a preschool teacher when you met her?

Yes. 20 A

21 Q Okay. Can you tell what year that was based on your

22 child's age?

23 A No.

24 Q Okay. You were not married when you were living on the

25 Sandbar Street address, at the time of the murders?


1 A I was, but then we divorced, at that home.

2 Q All right. Was your husband living in your home with

3 you at the time of the murders?

4 A Yes.

5 Q Were your children living with you at the time of the

6 murders?

7 A Yes.

8 Q How old were you at the time of the Ryen/Hughes

9 murders?

10 A

11 Q

I don't remember.

Okay. You were born in April of 1953. Is that

12 correct?

13 A

14 Q

Uh-huh.

And so, in June of 1983, that would make you 30 years

15 old. Is that correct?

16 A That's how old I was.

52

17 Q All right. Do you know how old Mary was at the time of

18 the murders?

19 A No.

20 Q Now, you indicated that you learned of the murders from

21 the television. Is that correct?

22 A Yes, in the early morning.

23 Q Okay. So it was morning, and you were watching

24 television, and you learned of the murders. What day was

25 it?


1 A I was, but then we divorced, at that home.

2 Q All right. Was your husband living in your home with

3 you at the time of the murders?

4 A Yes.

5 Q Were your children living with you at the time of the

6 murders?

7 A Yes.

8 Q How old were you at the time of the Ryen/Hughes

9 murders?

10 A

11 Q

I don't remember.

Okay. You were born in April of 1953. Is that

12 correct?

13 A

14 Q

Uh-huh.

And so, in June of 1983, that would make you 30 years

15 old. Is that correct?

16 A That's how old I was.

52

17 Q All right. Do you know how old Mary was at the time of

18 the murders?

19 A No.

20 Q Now, you indicated that you learned of the murders from

21 the television. Is that correct?

22 A Yes, in the early morning.

23 Q Okay. So it was morning, and you were watching

24 television, and you learned of the murders. What day was

25 it?


1

2

3

THE COURT: Is that right?

THE WITNESS: Yes, that's fine. That's fine.

THE COURT: Okay. We're trying to get a record.

4 Thank you.

5 THE WITNESS: Yes, I know. I'm just frustrated

6 because I cannot exactly remember.

7 BY MS. WILKENS:

8 Q What day did you learn of the murders, what day of the

9 week?

10 A

11 Q

12 that

13 A

14 Q

15 that

16 A

17 Q

The next morning.

It was the next morning. What time did you wake up

morning?

I don't remember.

And you learned from watching the television news. Is

correct?

Yes.

Now, before the murders, did you know the location of

18 the Ryen home?

19 A

20 Q

21 A

Yes.

How was it that you were aware where the Ryens lived?

Because everyone who knew horses knew the Ryens. They

22 had a nice ranch up there.

23 Q

24 A

25 Q

Had you ever been there?

No.

And you were involved with horses? Is that correct?

53


1

2

3

THE COURT: Is that right?

THE WITNESS: Yes, that's fine. That's fine.

THE COURT: Okay. We're trying to get a record.

4 Thank you.

5 THE WITNESS: Yes, I know. I'm just frustrated

6 because I cannot exactly remember.

7 BY MS. WILKENS:

8 Q What day did you learn of the murders, what day of the

9 week?

10 A

11 Q

12 that

13 A

14 Q

15 that

16 A

17 Q

The next morning.

It was the next morning. What time did you wake up

morning?

I don't remember.

And you learned from watching the television news. Is

correct?

Yes.

Now, before the murders, did you know the location of

18 the Ryen home?

19 A

20 Q

21 A

Yes.

How was it that you were aware where the Ryens lived?

Because everyone who knew horses knew the Ryens. They

22 had a nice ranch up there.

23 Q

24 A

25 Q

Had you ever been there?

No.

And you were involved with horses? Is that correct?

53


1 A Most definite.

2 Q And how were you involved with horses?

3 A Because I trained horses.

4 Q Okay. And who did you train horses for?

5 A Allover the place. I trained for different

6 individuals. I would go to their home, train their horses.

7 There was Leonard Grenier (phonetic), who ran Carbon Canyon

8 Stables. I would go up there, and Vicky Grenier, and

9 Leonard, and we'd show horses down in El Rodeo and the

10 Diamond Bar. We'd go show horses there. I showed horses

11 there when I was in high school.

12 Q Now, you've

13 A I've been in horses 42 years.

54

14 Q You've indicated that your home was about a half a mile

15 from the Corral Canyon Bar. Is that correct?

16 A From what?

17 Q From the Canyon Corral Bar to your home was about a

18 half a mile?

19 A About a half a mile.

20 Q What was the distance from your home to the Ryens'

21 ranch?

22 A It depended on which way you went in. If you went

23 straight up the hill, it wasn't very far, but if you had to

24 go all the way around and up this way and down (witness

25 indicating), it was far.


1 A Most definite.

2 Q And how were you involved with horses?

3 A Because I trained horses.

4 Q Okay. And who did you train horses for?

5 A Allover the place. I trained for different

6 individuals. I would go to their home, train their horses.

7 There was Leonard Grenier (phonetic), who ran Carbon Canyon

8 Stables. I would go up there, and Vicky Grenier, and

9 Leonard, and we'd show horses down in El Rodeo and the

10 Diamond Bar. We'd go show horses there. I showed horses

11 there when I was in high school.

12 Q Now, you've

13 A I've been in horses 42 years.

54

14 Q You've indicated that your home was about a half a mile

15 from the Corral Canyon Bar. Is that correct?

16 A From what?

17 Q From the Canyon Corral Bar to your home was about a

18 half a mile?

19 A About a half a mile.

20 Q What was the distance from your home to the Ryens'

21 ranch?

22 A It depended on which way you went in. If you went

23 straight up the hill, it wasn't very far, but if you had to

24 go all the way around and up this way and down (witness

25 indicating), it was far.


55

1 Q Okay. As the crow flies - -

2 A As the crow flies, a little less than a half a mile,

3 not even a half a mile, quarter. I mean, it was short

4 distance.

5 Q And you recall looking up to the Ryen ranch after the

6 murders and seeing the emergency vehicles. Is that correct?

7 A I didn't see vehicles. I saw people in the windows.

8 Q All right. You saw people inside the Ryen home?

9 A Yes.

10 Q All right. You had to use binoculars. Is that

11 correct?

12 A

13 Q

Yes, I sure did.

Okay. If I could ask you to turn to that notebook

14 that's in front of you, there's a tab, and it says, "RRR-l,"

15 and it's a map.

16 A

17 Q

18 A

Triple R?

Triple R, dash one. It's a map.

I see it. Okay. Right in the back. Okay. There's

19 Los Serranos (phonetic).

20 Q Now, I was wondering if you could locate on that map

21 Sandbar Street.

22 A If I had a magnifying glass. Let's see. Okay.

23 There's Central, there's Riverside, there's Chino Avenue,

24 Corona Expressway (witness indicating). Okay. Here we go.

25 We're down in here. Here, we turn off here on Eucalyptus,


55

1 Q Okay. As the crow flies - -

2 A As the crow flies, a little less than a half a mile,

3 not even a half a mile, quarter. I mean, it was short

4 distance.

5 Q And you recall looking up to the Ryen ranch after the

6 murders and seeing the emergency vehicles. Is that correct?

7 A I didn't see vehicles. I saw people in the windows.

8 Q All right. You saw people inside the Ryen home?

9 A Yes.

10 Q All right. You had to use binoculars. Is that

11 correct?

12 A

13 Q

Yes, I sure did.

Okay. If I could ask you to turn to that notebook

14 that's in front of you, there's a tab, and it says, "RRR-l,"

15 and it's a map.

16 A

17 Q

18 A

Triple R?

Triple R, dash one. It's a map.

I see it. Okay. Right in the back. Okay. There's

19 Los Serranos (phonetic).

20 Q Now, I was wondering if you could locate on that map

21 Sandbar Street.

22 A If I had a magnifying glass. Let's see. Okay.

23 There's Central, there's Riverside, there's Chino Avenue,

24 Corona Expressway (witness indicating). Okay. Here we go.

25 We're down in here. Here, we turn off here on Eucalyptus,


1 and Sandbar is right there (witness indicating). This map

2 is not correct.

3 Q And what's wrong with the map? Is Sandbar not on it?

4 A Well, it doesn't show the road going across here

5 (witness indicating) to where the Ryen house would be.

6 Q Does it show Sandbar?

7 A Yes.

8 Q Okay. Do you have a pen?

9 A Yes, ma'am, I do.

10 Q

11

Can you --

THE COURT: Do you recall whether you have

12 received this one?

MS. WILKENS: No, your Honor.

56

13

14

15

THE COURT: This is the first time we're using it?


16 BY MS. WILKENS:

17 Q

18 A

19 Q

Could you please circle Sandbar Street on that map?

Okay.

Now, could you hold it up and show the Court where you

20 circled?

21 A Right there (witness indicating)

22 THE COURT: All right.

23 THE WITNESS: Can you see that?

24 THE COURT: I can.

25 THE WITNESS: I can't, either. Right there.


1 and Sandbar is right there (witness indicating). This map

2 is not correct.

3 Q And what's wrong with the map? Is Sandbar not on it?

4 A Well, it doesn't show the road going across here

5 (witness indicating) to where the Ryen house would be.

6 Q Does it show Sandbar?

7 A Yes.

8 Q Okay. Do you have a pen?

9 A Yes, ma'am, I do.

10 Q

11

Can you --

THE COURT: Do you recall whether you have

12 received this one?

MS. WILKENS: No, your Honor.

56

13

14

15

THE COURT: This is the first time we're using it?


16 BY MS. WILKENS:

17 Q

18 A

19 Q

Could you please circle Sandbar Street on that map?

Okay.

Now, could you hold it up and show the Court where you

20 circled?

21 A Right there (witness indicating)

22 THE COURT: All right.

23 THE WITNESS: Can you see that?

24 THE COURT: I can.

25 THE WITNESS: I can't, either. Right there.


1 Sandbar is right there, and my house actually sits right


57

3 MR. HILE: Your Honor, may I just make sure I look

4 at the same spot?

5 THE COURT: Hold on a second.


7 THE COURT: Thank you.

8 BY MS. WILKENS:

9 Q Now, you indicated that you went to the Canyon Corral

10 whenever you were hungry.

11 A Not whenever I was hungry. I mean, just occasionally.

12 my kids would like to go out and have fries.

13 Q All right. So you didn't frequent the bar?

14 A No.

15 there --

16

17

I told you I wasn't much of a drinker.

see, before that area was developed -

THE COURT: There's just question -

THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.

I would go

18 THE COURT: We do question, answer, question,

19 answer.

20 THE WITNESS: I get it. Okay.

21 BY MS. WILKENS:

22 Q Now, did you estimate to Detective Cavanaugh that,

23 prior to the murders, you would go to the Canyon Corral Bar

24 approximately once a month?

25 A If that. Yes, because, see, if I --


1 Sandbar is right there, and my house actually sits right


57

3 MR. HILE: Your Honor, may I just make sure I look

4 at the same spot?

5 THE COURT: Hold on a second.



8 BY MS. WILKENS:

9 Q Now, you indicated that you went to the Canyon Corral

10 whenever you were hungry.

11 A Not whenever I was hungry. I mean, just occasionally.

12 my kids would like to go out and have fries.

13 Q All right. So you didn't frequent the bar?

14 A No.

15 there --

16

17

I told you I wasn't much of a drinker.

see, before that area was developed -

THE COURT: There's just question -

THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.

I would go

18 THE COURT: We do question, answer, question,

19 answer.

20 THE WITNESS: I get it. Okay.

21 BY MS. WILKENS:

22 Q Now, did you estimate to Detective Cavanaugh that,

23 prior to the murders, you would go to the Canyon Corral Bar

24 approximately once a month?

25 A If that. Yes, because, see, if I --


-,

58

1 Q That's fine.

2 A Okay.

3 Q Is that about right?

4 A That's correct.

5 Q Okay. And you indicate that you only occasionally had

6 an alcoholic drink and would normally have a soft drink. Is

7 that correct?

8 A That is absolutely correct.

9 Q Okay. And you were not drinking alcohol the night of

10 the murders?

11 A No.

12 Q Was Mary drinking?

13 A I don't remember.

14 Q Was her friend Diane drinking?


16 Q Okay. So you don't recall?

17 A I just know about me.

18 Q Was everyone eating in your party?

19 A I believe I had ordered a baked potato, because I think

20 that's all -- the kitchen was closed, and that's all I could

21 get.

22 Q So you believe you arrived after the kitchen was

23 closed?

24 A I don't know if the kitchen was closed or not. They

25 just -- I believe that's what I was eating.


-,

58

1 Q That's fine.

2 A Okay.

3 Q Is that about right?

4 A That's correct.

5 Q Okay. And you indicate that you only occasionally had

6 an alcoholic drink and would normally have a soft drink. Is

7 that correct?

8 A That is absolutely correct.

9 Q Okay. And you were not drinking alcohol the night of

10 the murders?

11 A No.

12 Q Was Mary drinking?


14 Q Was her friend Diane drinking?


16 Q Okay. So you don't recall?

17 A I just know about me.

18 Q Was everyone eating in your party?

19 A I believe I had ordered a baked potato, because I think

20 that's all -- the kitchen was closed, and that's all I could

21 get.

22 Q So you believe you arrived after the kitchen was

23 closed?

24 A I don't know if the kitchen was closed or not. They

25 just -- I believe that's what I was eating.


59

1 Q Okay. So you don't recall ordering salads?

2 A I probably did, because I always liked a salad with my

3 potato.

4 Q Okay. Can you get salads after the kitchen is closed?

5 A

6 Q

7 A

8 Q

9 A

10 Q

11 A

12

13

I have no idea.

All right.

That would be something they'd know.

Do you recall what Mary had to eat that night?


Do you recall what her friend Diane had to eat?

No.

THE COURT: You have to answer audibly.

THE WITNESS: Okay. No.

14 BY MS. WILKENS:

15 Q Do you know who the bartender on duty was that night?

16 A There was a lady, darker-hair lady.

17 Q When Detective Cavanaugh spoke to you, did he show you

18 any photographs?

19 A He did, but I didn't recognize them.

20 MS. WILKENS: Your Honor, I'd like to have marked

21 as Exhibit TTT -- no? I'm sorry. I'm being told no. What

22 do I want it marked as? It will be VVV, your Honor.

23 THE COURT: Triple Victor.

24 BY MS. WILKENS:

25 Q Now, do you recognize this as the photo that Detective


59

1 Q Okay. So you don't recall ordering salads?

2 A I probably did, because I always liked a salad with my

3 potato.

4 Q Okay. Can you get salads after the kitchen is closed?

5 A

6 Q

7 A

8 Q

9 A

10 Q

11 A

12

13

I have no idea.

All right.

That would be something they'd know.

Do you recall what Mary had to eat that night?


Do you recall what her friend Diane had to eat?

No.

THE COURT: You have to answer audibly.

THE WITNESS: Okay. No.

14 BY MS. WILKENS:

15 Q Do you know who the bartender on duty was that night?

16 A There was a lady, darker-hair lady.

17 Q When Detective Cavanaugh spoke to you, did he show you

18 any photographs?

19 A He did, but I didn't recognize them.

20 MS. WILKENS: Your Honor, I'd like to have marked

21 as Exhibit TTT -- no? I'm sorry. I'm being told no. What

22 do I want it marked as? It will be VVV, your Honor.

23 THE COURT: Triple Victor.

24 BY MS. WILKENS:

25 Q Now, do you recognize this as the photo that Detective


60

1 Cavanaugh showed you, ma'am?

2 A It doesn't look the same to me.

3 Q It looks different?

4 A Yes. This isn't - - he showed me someone else.

5 Q He didn't show you this photo?

6 A He showed me, I think, an inmate.

7 Q Why do you think it was an inmate, ma'am?

8 A Because I don't know, and I thought he was an inmate.

9 Q Okay. Well, it would have been folded, and it would

10 have only been the photo. Does that help your recollection?

11 A That might have been it. That might have been the

12 difference here. I don't know.

13 Q Yes. I don't think you would have seen anything but

14 the photo. Do you recognize having been shown the photo?

15 A

16 Q

17 A

18 Q

I don't recognize this person at all.

You don't, not familiar at all?

No.

Okay. And your understanding was the bartender that

19 night was a lady?

20 A She was the one that was behind down at the end on the

21 cash register that night.

22 Q Okay. And is the cash register behind the bar?

23 A It was.

24 Q Okay. And you were seated at the bar. Is that

25 correct, ma'am?


60

1 Cavanaugh showed you, ma'am?

2 A It doesn't look the same to me.

3 Q It looks different?

4 A Yes. This isn't - - he showed me someone else.

5 Q He didn't show you this photo?

6 A He showed me, I think, an inmate.

7 Q Why do you think it was an inmate, ma'am?

8 A Because I don't know, and I thought he was an inmate.

9 Q Okay. Well, it would have been folded, and it would

10 have only been the photo. Does that help your recollection?

11 A That might have been it. That might have been the

12 difference here. I don't know.

13 Q Yes. I don't think you would have seen anything but

14 the photo. Do you recognize having been shown the photo?

15 A

16 Q

17 A

18 Q

I don't recognize this person at all.

You don't, not familiar at all?

No.

Okay. And your understanding was the bartender that

19 night was a lady?

20 A She was the one that was behind down at the end on the

21 cash register that night.

22 Q Okay. And is the cash register behind the bar?

23 A It was.

24 Q Okay. And you were seated at the bar. Is that

25 correct, ma'am?


61

1 A Yes, I was.

2 Q And you were seated at the bar the entire time you were

3 there that night?

4 A

5 Q

Yes, I was.

Okay. And Mary and Diane were also seated at the bar?

6 A I don't know if it was Diane or not. I don't know her

7 name.

8 Q Okay. Mary's friend?

9 A Okay.

10 Q All right. And while you were at the bar, you only saw

11 a lady tending bar. Is that correct?

12 A I don't even know that she was tending bar. She was at

13 the cash register.

14 Q Okay. Did you notice anyone tending bar that night?

15 A No, just this lady standing back there, because we

16 weren't there that long, really.

17 Q

18 A

19 Q

20 A

21 Q

22 A

23 Q

24 A

25 Q

How long were you there?

Probably about a half-hour, at the most.

Okay. And do you recall what time you arrived?

No.

No idea?

Evening. Evening time.

Was the band playing?

I don't remember a band.

Now, you went there about once a month. Was it usually


61

1 A Yes, I was.

2 Q And you were seated at the bar the entire time you were

3 there that night?

4 A

5 Q

Yes, I was.

Okay. And Mary and Diane were also seated at the bar?

6 A I don't know if it was Diane or not. I don't know her

7 name.

8 Q Okay. Mary's friend?

9 A Okay.

10 Q All right. And while you were at the bar, you only saw

11 a lady tending bar. Is that correct?

12 A I don't even know that she was tending bar. She was at

13 the cash register.

14 Q Okay. Did you notice anyone tending bar that night?

15 A No, just this lady standing back there, because we

16 weren't there that long, really.

17 Q

18 A

19 Q

20 A

21 Q

22 A

23 Q

24 A

25 Q

How long were you there?

Probably about a half-hour, at the most.

Okay. And do you recall what time you arrived?

No.

No idea?

Evening. Evening time.

Was the band playing?

I don't remember a band.

Now, you went there about once a month. Was it usually


62

1 on a Saturday night?

2 A Yes, because my children would go to their dad's for

3 his weekend.

4 Q Okay. And when you would come in on a Saturday night,

5 was it normal that a band was playing?

6 A It seemed like it, yes.

7 Q Is it possible the band was playing and you just didn't

8 notice?

9 A Possible.

10 Q Okay. And were you eating when you saw these two men

11 come into the bar?

12 A Not yet, no. I was still waiting. You know, I had a

13 salad.

14 Q You had a salad?

15 A I had a salad, but I was waiting for, like, my potato.

16 Q Okay. So, sitting here today, you have a specific

17 recollection that you had a salad?

18 A Yes.

19 THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. WILKENS: Correct? 20

21 MR. HILE: Your Honor, I'm just -- counsel keeps

22 interrupting if the witness is finishing an answer, and I

23 just want to make sure that the witness gets to finish her

24 answer. It's about the fourth time. I try not to

25 interrupt, but I just want to slow that down.


62

1 on a Saturday night?

2 A Yes, because my children would go to their dad's for

3 his weekend.

4 Q Okay. And when you would come in on a Saturday night,

5 was it normal that a band was playing?

6 A It seemed like it, yes.

7 Q Is it possible the band was playing and you just didn't

8 notice?

9 A Possible.

10 Q Okay. And were you eating when you saw these two men


12 A Not yet, no. I was still waiting. You know, I had a

13 salad.

14 Q You had a salad?

15 A I had a salad, but I was waiting for, like, my potato.

16 Q Okay. So, sitting here today, you have a specific

17 recollection that you had a salad?

18 A Yes.


MS. WILKENS: Correct? 20

21 MR. HILE: Your Honor, I'm just -- counsel keeps

22 interrupting if the witness is finishing an answer, and I

23 just want to make sure that the witness gets to finish her

24 answer. It's about the fourth time. I try not to

25 interrupt, but I just want to slow that down.


63

1 THE COURT: Let's continue. If there's a problem,

2 make an objection.

3 Go ahead.

4 MS. WILKENS: Thank you, your Honor.

5 BY MS. WILKENS:

6 Q All right. So, sitting here today, you have a specific

7 recollection that you were, in fact, eating a salad when you

8 saw the two men come in the bar?

9 A

10 Q

Yes.

And how long after you sat down at the bar was it

11 before you saw these two men coming into the bar?

12 A Maybe 10 minutes, 15 minutes, long enough to get it and

13 start eating.

14 Q All right.

15 A

16 Q

And then they came in the door.

So are you guessing, based on the fact that you had a

17 salad, that you must have been there about 15 or 20 minutes?

18 A Possibly.

19 Q So you don't really know how long you were there?

20 A No. I was probably there -- I wasn't there a very long

21 time.

22 Q All right. And what time did you leave the bar that

23 night?

24 A

25 Q

Don't remember. I just remember walking out.

Now, you were seated by the waitress station at the


63

1 THE COURT: Let's continue. If there's a problem,

2 make an objection.

3 Go ahead.


5 BY MS. WILKENS:

6 Q All right. So, sitting here today, you have a specific

7 recollection that you were, in fact, eating a salad when you

8 saw the two men come in the bar?

9 A

10 Q

Yes.

And how long after you sat down at the bar was it

11 before you saw these two men coming into the bar?

12 A Maybe 10 minutes, 15 minutes, long enough to get it and

13 start eating.

14 Q All right.

15 A

16 Q

And then they came in the door.

So are you guessing, based on the fact that you had a

17 salad, that you must have been there about 15 or 20 minutes?

18 A Possibly.

19 Q So you don't really know how long you were there?

20 A No. I was probably there -- I wasn't there a very long

21 time.

22 Q All right. And what time did you leave the bar that

23 night?

24 A

25 Q

Don't remember. I just remember walking out.

Now, you were seated by the waitress station at the


2 A

3 Q

4 A

5 Q

correct?

No. Mary was.

All right. Were you seated next to Mary?

No. That girl was.

All right. So you were on the other side of Mary's

6 friend, and Mary was seated at the waitress station or near

7 the waitress station?

8 A Right, near it, yes. Like, if this was it, she was

9 right here (witness indicating).

10 Q Now, if I could ask you to turn to the photographs at

11 the beginning of the notebook, the JJJ series.

12 A Okay.

13 Q And if you could turn to JJJ-4, and if I could invite

64

14 your attention to the building on the right-hand side of the

15 photograph, behind the blue pickup truck with the camper

16 shell. Can you indicate for the Court, looking at that

17 photograph, where is the door to the kitchen?

18 A Right there on the left (witness indicating).

19 Q Could you show that, and show where you're pointing,

20 please?

21 A Right there (witness indicating).

22 Q All right. Would that be the door that is to the right

23 of the light?

24 A No. That's the door to the kitchen.

25 Q I'm sorry. What?


2 A

3 Q

4 A

5 Q

correct?

No. Mary was.

All right. Were you seated next to Mary?

No. That girl was.

All right. So you were on the other side of Mary's

6 friend, and Mary was seated at the waitress station or near

7 the waitress station?

8 A Right, near it, yes. Like, if this was it, she was

9 right here (witness indicating).

10 Q Now, if I could ask you to turn to the photographs at

11 the beginning of the notebook, the JJJ series.

12 A Okay.

13 Q And if you could turn to JJJ-4, and if I could invite

64

14 your attention to the building on the right-hand side of the

15 photograph, behind the blue pickup truck with the camper

16 shell. Can you indicate for the Court, looking at that

17 photograph, where is the door to the kitchen?

18 A Right there on the left (witness indicating).

19 Q Could you show that, and show where you're pointing,

20 please?

21 A Right there (witness indicating).

22 Q All right. Would that be the door that is to the right

23 of the light?

24 A No. That's the door to the kitchen.

25 Q I'm sorry. What?


65

1 A That's the door to the kitchen.

2 Q Okay.

3 A That's not the back entrance for normal patrons.

4 Q Okay. Where are you pointing? Are you pointing to the

5 left or the right of the light?

6 A Right here. Right here, honey (witness indicating).

7 Q To the right of the light?


I'm sorry. I can't see that far.

Yes.

8 A

9 Q

10 A

11 Q

12 A

13 Q

So can you tell me if it's to the right of the light?

To the right of the light.

Okay. To the right of the light, that's the door that

14 goes in the kitchen?

15 A Yes.

16 Q Okay. Is there another door that patrons can use from

17 the parking lot?

18 A Over here. Over here (witness indicating).

19 Q Okay. When you say "over here," are you pointing to

20 the left of the light?

21 A Yes.

22 Q Okay.

To the left of that door, too.

Pardon?

23 A

24 Q

25 A It's to the left of this light (witness indicating).


65

1 A That's the door to the kitchen.

2 Q Okay.

3 A That's not the back entrance for normal patrons.

4 Q Okay. Where are you pointing? Are you pointing to the

5 left or the right of the light?

6 A Right here. Right here, honey (witness indicating).

7 Q To the right of the light?


I'm sorry. I can't see that far.

Yes.

8 A

9 Q

10 A

11 Q

12 A

13 Q

So can you tell me if it's to the right of the light?

To the right of the light.

Okay. To the right of the light, that's the door that

14 goes in the kitchen?

15 A Yes.

16 Q Okay. Is there another door that patrons can use from

17 the parking lot?

18 A Over here. Over here (witness indicating).

19 Q Okay. When you say "over here," are you pointing to

20 the left of the light?

21 A Yes.

22 Q Okay.

To the left of that door, too.

Pardon?

23 A

24 Q

25 A It's to the left of this light (witness indicating).


1 The left is the door, and there's another door over here


3 Q Okay. Now, when you say there's "another door over

4 here," are you referring to the front door?

5 A Back door.

6 Q There's another back door?

7 A There's two back doors, one to the kitchen and one to

8 the entrance to the dance floor.

9 Q Well, I understand that, and you said the one to the

10 right in the photo --

11 A I'm sorry. Did I say "right"?

12 Q - - the one to the

13 A No. This is not a door, it doesn't look like.

14 Q All right. That's not a door?

15 A I don't know what that is. That right there (witness

16 indicating) is the kitchen door, and there was another door

17 over here (witness indicating).

18 Q All right. Just to clarify, Ms. Slonaker, the door

66

19 that is depicted in JJJ-4 that is to the right of the light,

20 you are identifying that as the door to the kitchen. Is

21 that correct?

22 A No. I don't know what that is over to the right. I'm

23 talking about the left of the light is the door to the

24 kitchen.

25 Q Okay. Do you see in this photograph the back door to


1 The left is the door, and there's another door over here


3 Q Okay. Now, when you say there's "another door over

4 here," are you referring to the front door?

5 A Back door.

6 Q There's another back door?

7 A There's two back doors, one to the kitchen and one to

8 the entrance to the dance floor.

9 Q Well, I understand that, and you said the one to the

10 right in the photo --

11 A I'm sorry. Did I say "right"?

12 Q - - the one to the

13 A No. This is not a door, it doesn't look like.

14 Q All right. That's not a door?

15 A I don't know what that is. That right there (witness

16 indicating) is the kitchen door, and there was another door

17 over here (witness indicating).

18 Q All right. Just to clarify, Ms. Slonaker, the door

66

19 that is depicted in JJJ-4 that is to the right of the light,

20 you are identifying that as the door to the kitchen. Is

21 that correct?

22 A No. I don't know what that is over to the right. I'm

23 talking about the left of the light is the door to the

24 kitchen.

25 Q Okay. Do you see in this photograph the back door to


67

1 the bar that's used by the patrons? It's not visible to

2 you?

3 A (No audible response. )

4 Q All right. Do you know what's to the left of the

5 light? Do you know what that is?

6 A No, unless that's - - not unless that's the kitchen door

7 and the other one is the bar door, but I don't know. I

8 don't remember.

9 Q

10 A

Okay.

It looks like the -- now, down -- this would go down

11 like this (witness indicating). One of them, it's a door.

12 Q Now, how long did the two men speak with you while you

13 were seated at the bar?

14 A Briefly.

15 Q Can you estimate in minutes?

16 A About a minute.

17 Q They were there about a minute?

18 A Maybe less.

19 Q Okay. And then they moved on?

20 A Yes.

21 Q Did you continue to watch them after they left?

22 A Just a little bit. I was like this (witness

23 indicating), watching them walk down, and sort of like,

24 "Wow."

25 Q Wanting to see where they were going?


67

1 the bar that's used by the patrons? It's not visible to

2 you?

3 A (No audible response. )

4 Q All right. Do you know what's to the left of the

5 light? Do you know what that is?

6 A No, unless that's - - not unless that's the kitchen door

7 and the other one is the bar door, but I don't know. I

8 don't remember.

9 Q

10 A

Okay.

It looks like the -- now, down -- this would go down

11 like this (witness indicating). One of them, it's a door.

12 Q Now, how long did the two men speak with you while you

13 were seated at the bar?

14 A Briefly.

15 Q Can you estimate in minutes?

16 A About a minute.

17 Q They were there about a minute?

18 A Maybe less.

19 Q Okay. And then they moved on?

20 A Yes.

21 Q Did you continue to watch them after they left?

22 A Just a little bit. I was like this (witness

23 indicating), watching them walk down, and sort of like,

24 "Wow."

25 Q Wanting to see where they were going?


68

1 A Yes.

2 Q Okay.

3 A I was kind of watching them, yes.

4 Q All right. After they left, did you lose interest in

5 them?

6 A I never had an interest in them.

7 Q You continued to watch them?

8 A No. They walked down -- no. I wasn't -- that lady,

9 she was like, "Escort these guys out of here."

10 Q All right. When you refer to "lady," you're referring

11 to the lady bartender?

12 A It's the woman that was behind the bar there, and then

13 that big cowboy dude.

14 Q Now, you're saying that these men were ogling a friend

15 of yours in a low-cut blouse. Is that correct?

16 A Mary's friend.

17 Q All right. So it would be Mary's friend?

18 A. Yes. I didn't know who she was.

19 Q All right. But she came with you?

20 A What?

21 THE COURT: Is that yes?

22 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. I'm sorry.

23 BY MS. WILKENS:

24 Q Now, you indicated that you have a nursing education

25 and nursing training. What is your nursing degree? Is it


68

1 A Yes.

2 Q Okay.

3 A I was kind of watching them, yes.

4 Q All right. After they left, did you lose interest in

5 them?

6 A I never had an interest in them.

7 Q You continued to watch them?

8 A No. They walked down -- no. I wasn't -- that lady,

9 she was like, "Escort these guys out of here."

10 Q All right. When you refer to "lady," you're referring

11 to the lady bartender?

12 A It's the woman that was behind the bar there, and then

13 that big cowboy dude.

14 Q Now, you're saying that these men were ogling a friend

15 of yours in a low-cut blouse. Is that correct?

16 A Mary's friend.

17 Q All right. So it would be Mary's friend?

18 A. Yes. I didn't know who she was.

19 Q All right. But she came with you?

20 A What?

21 THE COURT: Is that yes?

22 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. I'm sorry.

23 BY MS. WILKENS:

24 Q Now, you indicated that you have a nursing education

25 and nursing training. What is your nursing degree? Is it


1 a

2 A Graduate practical nurse.

3 Q All right.

4 A Back in 1973, it was the equivalent of a licensed

5 vocational nurse, which --

6 Q Excuse me. Is it an A.A. degree?

7 A No.

8 Q Okay. Are you a licensed nurse?

Well, I was going to explain that to you.

Are you a licensed nurse?

No.

Okay. So you're not licensed in any state?

9 A

10 Q

11 A

12 Q

13 A I could be, if I decided to go take the test, but I

14 didn't care to.

Okay. But you're not a licensed nurse?

I'm a graduate practical nurse.

15 Q

16 A

17 THE COURT: Answer the question. She asked, "Are

18 you a licensed nurse?"

19 THE WITNESS: No.

20 BY MS. WILKENS:

21 Q Now, in your declaration, you describe one of the men

22 as wearing a light-colored T-shirt.

23 A Uh-huh.

24 Q Is it your testimony today - -

25 A Yes. I'm sorry.

69


1 a

2 A Graduate practical nurse.

3 Q All right.

4 A Back in 1973, it was the equivalent of a licensed

5 vocational nurse, which --

6 Q Excuse me. Is it an A.A. degree?

7 A No.

8 Q Okay. Are you a licensed nurse?

Well, I was going to explain that to you.

Are you a licensed nurse?

No.

Okay. So you're not licensed in any state?

9 A

10 Q

11 A

12 Q

13 A I could be, if I decided to go take the test, but I

14 didn't care to.

Okay. But you're not a licensed nurse?

I'm a graduate practical nurse.

15 Q

16 A

17 THE COURT: Answer the question. She asked, "Are

18 you a licensed nurse?"

19 THE WITNESS: No.

20 BY MS. WILKENS:

21 Q Now, in your declaration, you describe one of the men

22 as wearing a light-colored T-shirt.

23 A Uh-huh.

24 Q Is it your testimony today - -

25 A Yes. I'm sorry.

69


70

1 Q Is it your testimony today that the T-shirt is tan or

2 white?

3 A Yes. I thought it was white.

4 Q Now, when the men first entered the bar, did you think

5 they had mud or dirt on them?

6 A I wasn't quite sure what it was, looking at it. It

7 could have been dirt. And then, as they came closer, it was

8 clearly apparent that it was blood.

9 Q Okay. But as they first came in, you saw something on

10 their clothing and their person?

11 A Yes, ma'am.

12 Q Is that correct?

13 A Yes, ma'am.

14 Q You didn't know what it was at that point, but you saw

15 something?

16 A

17 Q

Right.

What kind of lighting do they have inside the Canyon

18 Corral Bar?

19 A Low lighting. It's real low light.

20 Q Dim?

21 A Right.

22 Q Now, when they came, you essentially told them they

23 were coming in the wrong way. Is that correct?

24 A I did tell them they were coming in the wrong way.

25 Q Okay. So you weren't someone who hesitated to speak up


70

1 Q Is it your testimony today that the T-shirt is tan or

2 white?

3 A Yes. I thought it was white.

4 Q Now, when the men first entered the bar, did you think

5 they had mud or dirt on them?

6 A I wasn't quite sure what it was, looking at it. It

7 could have been dirt. And then, as they came closer, it was

8 clearly apparent that it was blood.

9 Q Okay. But as they first came in, you saw something on

10 their clothing and their person?

11 A Yes, ma'am.

12 Q Is that correct?

13 A Yes, ma'am.

14 Q You didn't know what it was at that point, but you saw

15 something?

16 A

17 Q

Right.

What kind of lighting do they have inside the Canyon

18 Corral Bar?

19 A Low lighting. It's real low light.

20 Q Dim?

21 A Right.

22 Q Now, when they came, you essentially told them they

23 were coming in the wrong way. Is that correct?

24 A I did tell them they were coming in the wrong way.

25 Q Okay. So you weren't someone who hesitated to speak up


71

1 about things back in 1983. Is that correct?

2 A I don't know. I guess. I just visibly saw that

3 someone was coming in the wrong way, kind of like going down

4 the wrong-way street.


6 BY MS. WILKENS:

7 Q Now, in your declaration, you stated that you were a

8 mother with two young children, and you were trying to mind

9 your own business. Is that correct?

10 A

11 Q

Pretty much.

So asking strange men who are covered in blood why they

12 have blood on them, is that minding your own business?

13

14

15

MR. HILE: Objection, argumentative.


THE WITNESS: But I didn't say what you just said.

16 BY MS. WILKENS:

17 Q So you were real nice about it?

18 A No. I just told them, "Do you realize you are covered

19 in blood?"

20 Q

21 A

22 Q

Did you worry about why they were covered in blood?

Well, like, once again, not my concern.

Okay. And did you consider the Ryens and Chris Hughes

23 to be neighbors, based on where your residence was?

24 A

25 Q

No.

NOw, did you actually see the two men leave the bar?


71

1 about things back in 1983. Is that correct?

2 A I don't know. I guess. I just visibly saw that

3 someone was coming in the wrong way, kind of like going down

4 the wrong-way street.


6 BY MS. WILKENS:

7 Q Now, in your declaration, you stated that you were a

8 mother with two young children, and you were trying to mind

9 your own business. Is that correct?

10 A

11 Q

Pretty much.

So asking strange men who are covered in blood why they

12 have blood on them, is that minding your own business?

13

14

15

MR. HILE: Objection, argumentative.


THE WITNESS: But I didn't say what you just said.

16 BY MS. WILKENS:

17 Q So you were real nice about it?

18 A No. I just told them, "Do you realize you are covered

19 in blood?"

20 Q

21 A

22 Q

Did you worry about why they were covered in blood?

Well, like, once again, not my concern.

Okay. And did you consider the Ryens and Chris Hughes

23 to be neighbors, based on where your residence was?

24 A

25 Q

No.

NOw, did you actually see the two men leave the bar?


72

1 A They walked out the front door.

2 Q Okay. And you noticed them walking out the front door?

3 A That I saw.

4 Q Okay. And how soon after they walked out the front

5 door did you leave?

6 A Immediately.

7 Q Immediately?

8 A Uh-huh.

9 Q So you saw them walk by, and you just got up and left

10 right away?

11 A No. They didn't leave immediately. They were kind of

12 combative about leaving.

13 Q I'm sorry. I thought you said you saw them leave and

14 then you left.

15 A They walked out the front door. I don't know where

16 they went from there.

17 Q All right. Did they walk --

18 A They just walked out to the front.

19 Q All right.

20 A Where they went from there I have no idea.

21 Q They walked out the front door to the bar, and then you

22 got up and left. Is that correct?

23 A Yes.

24 Q Was there ( sic) several minutes go by between the time

25 they walked by and you got up?


72

1 A They walked out the front door.

2 Q Okay. And you noticed them walking out the front door?

3 A That I saw.

4 Q Okay. And how soon after they walked out the front

5 door did you leave?

6 A Immediately.

7 Q Immediately?

8 A Uh-huh.

9 Q So you saw them walk by, and you just got up and left

10 right away?

11 A No. They didn't leave immediately. They were kind of

12 combative about leaving.

13 Q I'm sorry. I thought you said you saw them leave and

14 then you left.

15 A They walked out the front door. I don't know where

16 they went from there.

17 Q All right. Did they walk --

18 A They just walked out to the front.

19 Q All right.

20 A Where they went from there I have no idea.

21 Q They walked out the front door to the bar, and then you

22 got up and left. Is that correct?

23 A Yes.

24 Q Was there ( sic) several minutes go by between the time

25 they walked by and you got up?


73

1 A I suppose, yes.

2 Q All right. How many minutes?

3 A Ten.

4 Q Okay. So they had gone out the front door and you had

5 not seen them again. Ten minutes passed --

6 A Yes.

7 Q - - and then you left?

8 A Yes.

9 Q And you left through the back door, correct?

10 A Correct.

11 Q All right. But it's your testimony, when you got up to

12 leave, that you could see out the front door, because it was

13 open?

14 A It was ajar.

15 Q Okay. How far was it open?

16 A All the way.

17 Q Wide open?

18 A Wide open.

19 Q Okay. And why did you look out the front door as you

20 were leaving?

21 A

22 Q

I don't recall. Just to look, I guess.

Okay. But you had already decided to go out the back

23 door, correct?

24 A

25 Q

Well, yes.

Is that because of where you parked?


73

1 A I suppose, yes.

2 Q All right. How many minutes?

3 A Ten.

4 Q Okay. So they had gone out the front door and you had

5 not seen them again. Ten minutes passed --

6 A Yes.

7 Q - - and then you left?

8 A Yes.

9 Q And you left through the back door, correct?

10 A Correct.

11 Q All right. But it's your testimony, when you got up to

12 leave, that you could see out the front door, because it was

13 open?

14 A It was ajar.

15 Q Okay. How far was it open?

16 A All the way.

17 Q Wide open?

18 A Wide open.

19 Q Okay. And why did you look out the front door as you

20 were leaving?

21 A

22 Q

I don't recall. Just to look, I guess.

Okay. But you had already decided to go out the back

23 door, correct?

24 A

25 Q

Well, yes.

Is that because of where you parked?


74

1 A Yes.

2 Q Okay. And when you looked out the front door, what did

3 you see?

4 A An officer.

5 Q All right. When you say "an officer," what was he

6 wearing?

7 A Brown suit and a star.

8 Q Okay. That would be a badge in the shape of a star?

9 A

10 Q

Yes.

Okay. And when you say "a brown suit," are you saying

11 the pants and --

12 A

13 Q

14 A

15 Q

16 A

17 Q

18 A

19 Q

20 A

21 Q

22 A

23 Q

24 A

25 Q

No, a police officer's uniform.

Did the pants and the shirt match?

Yes, they did.

Same color?

Yes.

What was the color?

Brown.

What shade of brown?

Tannish brown.

Tan?

Yes.

Was the officer --

You know, lighter than this (witness indicating).

Was the officer wearing a hat?


74

1 A Yes.

2 Q Okay. And when you looked out the front door, what did

3 you see?

4 A An officer.

5 Q All right. When you say "an officer," what was he

6 wearing?

7 A Brown suit and a star.

8 Q Okay. That would be a badge in the shape of a star?

9 A

10 Q

Yes.

Okay. And when you say "a brown suit," are you saying

11 the pants and --

12 A

13 Q

14 A

15 Q

16 A

17 Q

18 A

19 Q

20 A

21 Q

22 A

23 Q

24 A

25 Q

No, a police officer's uniform.

Did the pants and the shirt match?

Yes, they did.

Same color?

Yes.

What was the color?

Brown.

What shade of brown?

Tannish brown.

Tan?

Yes.

Was the officer --

You know, lighter than this (witness indicating).

Was the officer wearing a hat?


1 A No.

2 Q And could you tell what the officer was doing?

3 A Standing there.

4 Q Okay. Was he talking to anyone?

5 A Not that I can recall.

6 Q Was there anyone nearby?

7 A Don't know.

8 Q Okay. Now, the waitress that you saw point, you saw

9 her point to these men and then they left?

10 A

11 Q

12 A

13 Q

14 name?

15 A

16 Q

I don't know what she was pointing at.

Okay. But did you see her point?

I saw her point.

Okay. Did you know that waitress? Did you know her

I might have back then, but I don't now.

Was it the same lady that was behind the bar that

17 night?

Yes.

75

18 A

19 Q Okay. So it was the same lady that was behind the cash

20 register, behind the bar?

21 A Uh-huh.

22 Q And was she behind the bar when she pointed?

23 A Yes.

24 Q Okay. And could you see who she was pointing to?

25 A She was pointing to the door.


1 A No.

2 Q And could you tell what the officer was doing?

3 A Standing there.

4 Q Okay. Was he talking to anyone?

5 A Not that I can recall.

6 Q Was there anyone nearby?

7 A Don't know.

8 Q Okay. Now, the waitress that you saw point, you saw

9 her point to these men and then they left?

10 A

11 Q

12 A

13 Q

14 name?

15 A

16 Q

I don't know what she was pointing at.

Okay. But did you see her point?

I saw her point.

Okay. Did you know that waitress? Did you know her

I might have back then, but I don't now.

Was it the same lady that was behind the bar that

17 night?

Yes.

75

18 A

19 Q Okay. So it was the same lady that was behind the cash

20 register, behind the bar?

21 A Uh-huh.

22 Q And was she behind the bar when she pointed?

23 A Yes.

24 Q Okay. And could you see who she was pointing to?

25 A She was pointing to the door.


1 Q All right. And after she pointed, did the men leave?

2 A Yes.

3 Q How soon

4 A They went out that door. Well, combatively, I guess,

5 somewhat, then, because this guy got up, big guy.

6 Q Okay. How long after she pointed to the door was it

7 before you saw the three men leaving the bar?

8 A

9 Q

10 A

Probably around five minutes.

Okay.

They might have been talking to her, explaining why --

11 I'm assuming they were --

12 Q

13 A

14 Q

Well, I'm just asking what you saw.

Okay.

Did you see a conversation between the three men and

15 someone?

Two men is all I saw.

76

16 A

17 Q I'm sorry. Two men. Did you see a conversation during

18 that five minutes? Were you watching?

19 A

20 Q

21 yet

22 A

23 Q

24 A

25 Q

Yes, between her and this big guy and --

Okay. When you say "between her," are you referring to

another waitress?

The girl that pointed, yes.

The same waitress that pointed?

Yes.

Okay. So she went - -


1 Q All right. And after she pointed, did the men leave?

2 A Yes.

3 Q How soon

4 A They went out that door. Well, combatively, I guess,

5 somewhat, then, because this guy got up, big guy.

6 Q Okay. How long after she pointed to the door was it

7 before you saw the three men leaving the bar?

8 A

9 Q

10 A

Probably around five minutes.

Okay.

They might have been talking to her, explaining why --

11 I'm assuming they were --

12 Q

13 A

14 Q

Well, I'm just asking what you saw.

Okay.

Did you see a conversation between the three men and

15 someone?

Two men is all I saw.

76

16 A

17 Q I'm sorry. Two men. Did you see a conversation during

18 that five minutes? Were you watching?

19 A

20 Q

21 yet

22 A

23 Q

24 A

25 Q

Yes, between her and this big guy and --

Okay. When you say "between her," are you referring to

another waitress?

The girl that pointed, yes.

The same waitress that pointed?

Yes.

Okay. So she went - -


1 A I don't know that she's a waitress, either.

2 Q All right. The lady behind the bar that pointed, she

3 came out from behind the bar?

4 A I don't know.

5 Q Well, how was

6 A No. She was standing there, and then she might have

7 come out behind the bar, because, ma'am, that's - - I don't

8 know.

9 Q Okay. Well, I want you to tell me what you saw.

10 A I saw her pointed (sic), or the guys were standing

11 there combatively, kind of talking like --

12 Q Okay. When you say that the two men were standing

13 there --

14 MR. HILE: Objection, your Honor. She keeps

15 interrupting the witness.

16 THE COURT: No, she's trying to clarify, and so

17 she may clarify. Your objection is overruled.

18 BY MS. WILKENS:

19 Q Okay. You saw the two men standing. Where were they

20 standing?

21 A When you open the door, there's a little way in, and

22 then the booths and the bar, and they were standing right

23 here (witness indicating), and there was

24 Q In relation to your being seated at the bar, were they

25 standing --

77


1 A I don't know that she's a waitress, either.

2 Q All right. The lady behind the bar that pointed, she

3 came out from behind the bar?

4 A I don't know.

5 Q Well, how was

6 A No. She was standing there, and then she might have

7 come out behind the bar, because, ma'am, that's - - I don't

8 know.

9 Q Okay. Well, I want you to tell me what you saw.

10 A I saw her pointed (sic), or the guys were standing

11 there combatively, kind of talking like --

12 Q Okay. When you say that the two men were standing

13 there --

14 MR. HILE: Objection, your Honor. She keeps

15 interrupting the witness.

16 THE COURT: No, she's trying to clarify, and so

17 she may clarify. Your objection is overruled.

18 BY MS. WILKENS:

19 Q Okay. You saw the two men standing. Where were they

20 standing?

21 A When you open the door, there's a little way in, and

22 then the booths and the bar, and they were standing right

23 here (witness indicating), and there was

24 Q In relation to your being seated at the bar, were they

25 standing --

77


78

1 A Over there (witness indicating).

2 Q I'm sorry. Don't say, "Over there," because we won't

3 know what it means.

4 A Well, I'm just saying, in relationship to the bar,

5 that's where they were standing, over there (witness

6 indicating).

7 Q All right. You're at the bar. How far away were these

8 men, two men, standing?

9 A From me to, like, the lady over there (witness

10 indicating), seated.

You're pointing to the counsel table over there?

Yes.

11 Q

12 A

13 THE COURT: Can you estimate in feet? Not going

14 to help, either?

15 MS. WILKENS: If your Honor cares to. I'm not

16 very good at that.

17 THE WITNESS: Me, neither.

18 BY MS. WILKENS:

19 Q Now, when you saw these two men standing over there,

20 and you're saying that someone was talking with them, did

21 you see someone talking to them?

22 A Yes, that guy.

23 Q All right. So there would be a man?

24 A A man, yes, with a hat.

25 Q Okay. He had a cowboy hat?


78

1 A Over there (witness indicating).

2 Q I'm sorry. Don't say, "Over there," because we won't

3 know what it means.

4 A Well, I'm just saying, in relationship to the bar,

5 that's where they were standing, over there (witness

6 indicating).

7 Q All right. You're at the bar. How far away were these

8 men, two men, standing?

9 A From me to, like, the lady over there (witness

10 indicating), seated.

You're pointing to the counsel table over there?

Yes.

11 Q

12 A

13 THE COURT: Can you estimate in feet? Not going

14 to help, either?

15 MS. WILKENS: If your Honor cares to. I'm not

16 very good at that.

17 THE WITNESS: Me, neither.

18 BY MS. WILKENS:

19 Q Now, when you saw these two men standing over there,

20 and you're saying that someone was talking with them, did

21 you see someone talking to them?

22 A Yes, that guy.

23 Q All right. So there would be a man?

24 A A man, yes, with a hat.

25 Q Okay. He had a cowboy hat?


79

1 A A black cowboy hat on.

2 Q Okay. So he stood up and talked to them?

3 A Yes, and he was kind of like, you know, "I'm going

4 to -- I'll handle this."

5 Q All right. Now, the lady who pointed, did you see her

6 come out from behind the bar?

7 A I don't remember that.

8 Q All right. So you don't know whether she was over

9 there or not?

10 A

11 Q

No.

Okay.

12 A She was at the end of the bar the last time I saw her,

13 pointing.

14 Q Okay. And so you don't know if there was any

15 conversation between her and the two men or not?

16 A

17 Q

No, I really don't.

Okay. Now, prior to the night of the murders, had you

18 ever seen a police officer come into the bar when you were

19 there?

Occasionally, yes. 20 A

21 Q Okay. And could you discern why they were there when

22 you'd see them?

23 A I think they'd just do a welfare check, usually. I'd

24 never known them to have been called and -- you know, they

25 just kind of would walk in, saunter on through, and then


79

1 A A black cowboy hat on.

2 Q Okay. So he stood up and talked to them?

3 A Yes, and he was kind of like, you know, "I'm going

4 to -- I'll handle this."

5 Q All right. Now, the lady who pointed, did you see her

6 come out from behind the bar?

7 A I don't remember that.

8 Q All right. So you don't know whether she was over

9 there or not?

10 A

11 Q

No.

Okay.

12 A She was at the end of the bar the last time I saw her,

13 pointing.

14 Q Okay. And so you don't know if there was any

15 conversation between her and the two men or not?

16 A

17 Q

No, I really don't.

Okay. Now, prior to the night of the murders, had you

18 ever seen a police officer come into the bar when you were

19 there?

Occasionally, yes. 20 A

21 Q Okay. And could you discern why they were there when

22 you'd see them?

23 A I think they'd just do a welfare check, usually. I'd

24 never known them to have been called and -- you know, they

25 just kind of would walk in, saunter on through, and then


--

80

1 "Okay. Everything's cool," and then off they go.

2 Q So they'd just kind of look around?

3 A And I think that could have been possibly, maybe, what

4 was happening with that police officer there. I don't know.

5 Q Well, you didn't see him enter the bar?

6 A He never entered when I was there, no.

7 Q All right. When you left the bar and you were driving

8 away, did you see him outside the bar?

9 A

10 Q

11

12

13

Huh-uh.

When you pulled

THE COURT: We need an answer.

THE WITNESS: No.


14 BY MS. WILKENS:

15 Q When you pulled out of the parking lot that night, did

16 you drive past the front of the bar to go home?

17 A

18 Q

I don't recollect.

Well, to get home --

19 A You wouldn't go that way. I would have come out of the

20 back and gone straight down Peyton.

21 Q Okay. And you didn't see the officer speaking to

22 anyone?

23 A No.

24 Q Now, did you tell Detective Cavanaugh that you

25 remembered a waitress named Shirley?


--

80

1 "Okay. Everything's cool," and then off they go.

2 Q So they'd just kind of look around?

3 A And I think that could have been possibly, maybe, what

4 was happening with that police officer there. I don't know.

5 Q Well, you didn't see him enter the bar?

6 A He never entered when I was there, no.

7 Q All right. When you left the bar and you were driving

8 away, did you see him outside the bar?

9 A

10 Q

11

12

13

Huh-uh.

When you pulled

THE COURT: We need an answer.

THE WITNESS: No.


14 BY MS. WILKENS:

15 Q When you pulled out of the parking lot that night, did

16 you drive past the front of the bar to go home?

17 A

18 Q

I don't recollect.

Well, to get home --

19 A You wouldn't go that way. I would have come out of the

20 back and gone straight down Peyton.

21 Q Okay. And you didn't see the officer speaking to

22 anyone?

23 A No.

24 Q Now, did you tell Detective Cavanaugh that you

25 remembered a waitress named Shirley?


1 A The only reason is because he said there was a girll

2 ladYI a waitress there named ShirleYI and I said l "WeIll is

3 that her" -- I don/t remember her name. I don/t remember

4 her l very vaguely.

5 Q Did you continue to go to the Canyon Corral Bar after

6 the night of the murders?

7 A I might have. Had good food.

8 Q You don/t recall?

9 A What?


11 A NO I I don/t recall.

81

12 Q All right. And you last spoke to Mary Mellon -- before

13 you saw her here todaYI you last spoke to Mary Mellon

14 approximately how many years ago?

Fourteen l 15. 15 A

16 Q Okay. And when you saw her here todaYI did you speak

17 with her?

Briefly. 18 A

19 Q Did you talk about what happened the night of the

20 murders?

21 A Absolutely not.

22 Q No? No conversation about that at all?

23 A No.

24 Q Now l when you lived in the Chino Hills at the time of

25 the murders I did you subscribe to a newspaper?


1 A The only reason is because he said there was a girll

2 ladYI a waitress there named ShirleYI and I said l "WeIll is

3 that her" -- I don/t remember her name. I don/t remember

4 her l very vaguely.

5 Q Did you continue to go to the Canyon Corral Bar after

6 the night of the murders?

7 A I might have. Had good food.


9 A What?


11 A NO I I don/t recall.

81

12 Q All right. And you last spoke to Mary Mellon -- before

13 you saw her here todaYI you last spoke to Mary Mellon

14 approximately how many years ago?

Fourteen l 15. 15 A

16 Q Okay. And when you saw her here todaYI did you speak

17 with her?

Briefly. 18 A

19 Q Did you talk about what happened the night of the

20 murders?

21 A Absolutely not.

22 Q No? No conversation about that at all?

23 A No.

24 Q Now l when you lived in the Chino Hills at the time of

25 the murders I did you subscribe to a newspaper?


1 A No, I did not.

2 Q Did you read a newspaper?

3 A No, I did not.

4 Q Did you watch television?

5 A Cartoons. My kids were little.

6 Q Did you talk to people about the murders after it

7 happened?

8 A Not really. I remember thinking we should because,

9 prior to that, this convict had escaped, and so we were

10 keeping things very locked tight down, including gates and

11 everything else.

12 Q Now, did you tell Detective Cavanaugh that you heard

13 about the murders because you lived in a small town?

14 A Yes. I mean, you know, when you live in a small town,

15 you know everything.

16 Q Okay. And did you hear people talking about the

17 murders after they occurred?

18 A

19 Q

20 A

Yes.

And did they talk about them for --

Not very long, just during that interim when it was so

21 fresh, and just terrible.

22 Q Okay. So they talked about it for a couple weeks, and

23 that was it?

24 A Well, in my circle of friends. It wasn't anything we

25 really wanted to keep thinking about.

82


1 A No, I did not.

2 Q Did you read a newspaper?

3 A No, I did not.

4 Q Did you watch television?

5 A Cartoons. My kids were little.

6 Q Did you talk to people about the murders after it

7 happened?

8 A Not really. I remember thinking we should because,

9 prior to that, this convict had escaped, and so we were

10 keeping things very locked tight down, including gates and

11 everything else.

12 Q Now, did you tell Detective Cavanaugh that you heard

13 about the murders because you lived in a small town?

14 A Yes. I mean, you know, when you live in a small town,

15 you know everything.

16 Q Okay. And did you hear people talking about the

17 murders after they occurred?

18 A

19 Q

20 A

Yes.

And did they talk about them for --

Not very long, just during that interim when it was so

21 fresh, and just terrible.

22 Q Okay. So they talked about it for a couple weeks, and

23 that was it?

24 A Well, in my circle of friends. It wasn't anything we

25 really wanted to keep thinking about.

82


83

1 Q NOw, you were not aware that Kevin Cooper had been

2 arrested for the murders?

3 A No.

4 Q And you were not aware, while you lived in Chino during

5 1984 and 1985, that Mr. Cooper went to trial?

6 A No. The last thing I remember about him was that he

7 had stolen a station wagon that said, "Ryen Four" on it, and

8 that's the last I remember of the whole thing, and I

9 thought, "Well, whatever. You know, just catch him and put

10 him away."

11 Q Now, you indicated that you learned that Kevin Cooper

12 was scheduled to be executed on -- you were watching

13 television on February 2nd, and you learned that Kevin

14 Cooper was about to be executed. Is that correct?

15 A Yes.

16 Q And I believe, in your direct testimony, you said that

17 you learned about the whole ordeal from television. Is that

18 correct?

19 A

20 Q

21 A

The "whole ordeal"?

Yes. I wondered what you meant by "whole ordeal."

You know, probably just the whole scheme of things, you

22 know, I mean, the fact that he was being put to death for

23 this murder.

24 Q Okay. And what is your personal viewpoint of the death

25 penalty?


83

1 Q NOw, you were not aware that Kevin Cooper had been

2 arrested for the murders?

3 A No.

4 Q And you were not aware, while you lived in Chino during

5 1984 and 1985, that Mr. Cooper went to trial?

6 A No. The last thing I remember about him was that he

7 had stolen a station wagon that said, "Ryen Four" on it, and

8 that's the last I remember of the whole thing, and I

9 thought, "Well, whatever. You know, just catch him and put

10 him away."

11 Q Now, you indicated that you learned that Kevin Cooper

12 was scheduled to be executed on -- you were watching

13 television on February 2nd, and you learned that Kevin

14 Cooper was about to be executed. Is that correct?

15 A Yes.

16 Q And I believe, in your direct testimony, you said that

17 you learned about the whole ordeal from television. Is that

18 correct?

19 A

20 Q

21 A

The "whole ordeal"?

Yes. I wondered what you meant by "whole ordeal."

You know, probably just the whole scheme of things, you

22 know, I mean, the fact that he was being put to death for

23 this murder.

24 Q Okay. And what is your personal viewpoint of the death

25 penalty?


1 A Of the death penalty?

2 Q Yes.

3 A I believe it's warranted.

4 Q Okay. But you were thinking about his being executed?

5 A No. Actually, I was thinking about making -- telling

6 my kids, you know, "Well, you know, it's quite possible

7 that, if he did it, maybe he had friends that helped him."

8 Q Okay. So you thought of that?

9 A

10 Q

Believe that.

Okay. Did you ever watch the 48 Hours program on CBS

11 about the Ryen/Hughes murders?

12 A No, I did not. I don't think I would have watched, it

84

13 anyway. I didn't like it when it happened, and I don't like

14 it today, and I probably wouldn't have.

15 Q Now, in your interview with Detective Cavanaugh, did

16 you tell him that you heard "Arnold was going to try and

17 save this guy, you know. So I thought, well, maybe I should

18 give Arnie a little jingle"? Did you say that to Detective

19 Cavanaugh?

20 A

21 Q

22 guy.

Could you repeat the sentence?

Yes. "I heard Arnold was going to try and save this

So, you know, so I thought, well, maybe I should give

23 Arnie a little jingle."

24 A No.

25 Q You didn't say that?


1 A Of the death penalty?

2 Q Yes.

3 A I believe it's warranted.

4 Q Okay. But you were thinking about his being executed?

5 A No. Actually, I was thinking about making -- telling

6 my kids, you know, "Well, you know, it's quite possible

7 that, if he did it, maybe he had friends that helped him."

8 Q Okay. So you thought of that?

9 A

10 Q

Believe that.

Okay. Did you ever watch the 48 Hours program on CBS

11 about the Ryen/Hughes murders?

12 A No, I did not. I don't think I would have watched, it

84

13 anyway. I didn't like it when it happened, and I don't like

14 it today, and I probably wouldn't have.

15 Q Now, in your interview with Detective Cavanaugh, did

16 you tell him that you heard "Arnold was going to try and

17 save this guy, you know. So I thought, well, maybe I should

18 give Arnie a little jingle"? Did you say that to Detective

19 Cavanaugh?

20 A

21 Q

22 guy.

Could you repeat the sentence?

Yes. "I heard Arnold was going to try and save this

So, you know, so I thought, well, maybe I should give

23 Arnie a little jingle."

24 A No.

25 Q You didn't say that?


85

1 A No.

2 Q Never said that?

3 A (No audible response.)

4 Q Now, you mentioned that "our governor." Were you

5 referring to Arnold Schwarzenegger?

6 A Yes.

7 Q Okay. You don't live in California, though, do you,

8 ma'am?

9 A I do now.

10 Q Where do you live?

11 A In fact, I voted for Arnold.


13 A Nevada City, California.

14 Q Okay. Now, did you know that Mr. Schwarzenegger was

15 governor when you decided to call his office?

16 A Well, yes.

17 Q Okay. And you say you spoke to his secretary?

18 A Yes.

19 Q Was that the person who answered the phone?

20 A Yes. I would assume it's his secretary, whoever

21 answered his phone, his receptionist.

22 Q Okay. So you didn't get connected to other people

23 after you initially rang the phone?

24 A No. I just said, "Well, would you mind having him call

25 me? I'd like to talk to him about something that I

Echo Reporting[ Inc.

85

1 A No.

2 Q Never said that?

3 A (No audible response.)

4 Q Now, you mentioned that "our governor." Were you

5 referring to Arnold Schwarzenegger?

6 A Yes.

7 Q Okay. You don't live in California, though, do you,

8 ma'am?

9 A I do now.


11 A In fact, I voted for Arnold.


13 A Nevada City, California.

14 Q Okay. Now, did you know that Mr. Schwarzenegger was

15 governor when you decided to call his office?

16 A Well, yes.

17 Q Okay. And you say you spoke to his secretary?

18 A Yes.

19 Q Was that the person who answered the phone?

20 A Yes. I would assume it's his secretary, whoever

21 answered his phone, his receptionist.

22 Q Okay. So you didn't get connected to other people

23 after you initially rang the phone?

24 A No. I just said, "Well, would you mind having him call

25 me? I'd like to talk to him about something that I

Echo Reporting[ Inc.

86

1 witnessed years ago."

2 Q Now t did you think that -- when you found out about the

3 impending execution t did you think that you should call the

4 police?

5 A No. I figured that t if there was a police officer

6 there that night t maybe he should have done his job.

7 Q So you assumed that the police officer at the bar did

8 his job?

9 A I would assume that someone there had said t "There was

10 guys in here with blood." Yes t I would assumed (sic).

11 "Assume" is the word here t though.

12 Q Wellt if you assumed that t why did you feel the need to

13 call the governor?

14 A Because my kids thought that if this guy was put to

15 death t and we found out that it wasntt true t then I would

16 have felt guilty all my life.

17 Q Wellt Itm confused. I thought that you were concerned

18 that no one knew that there were bloody men at the bar that

19 night. Was that your concern?

20 MR. HILE: Objection.

21 THE WITNESS: I didntt know that no one knew.

22 MR. HILE: Objection t itts not a question that

23 shets confused.

24 BY MS. WILKENS:

25 Q All right. So you assumed --


86

1 witnessed years ago."

2 Q Now t did you think that -- when you found out about the

3 impending execution t did you think that you should call the

4 police?

5 A No. I figured that t if there was a police officer

6 there that night t maybe he should have done his job.

7 Q So you assumed that the police officer at the bar did

8 his job?

9 A I would assume that someone there had said t "There was

10 guys in here with blood." Yes t I would assumed (sic).

11 "Assume" is the word here t though.

12 Q Wellt if you assumed that t why did you feel the need to

13 call the governor?

14 A Because my kids thought that if this guy was put to

15 death t and we found out that it wasntt true t then I would

16 have felt guilty all my life.

17 Q Wellt Itm confused. I thought that you were concerned

18 that no one knew that there were bloody men at the bar that

19 night. Was that your concern?

20 MR. HILE: Objection.

21 THE WITNESS: I didntt know that no one knew.

22 MR. HILE: Objection t itts not a question that

23 shets confused.

24 BY MS. WILKENS:

25 Q All right. So you assumed --


1 THE COURT: Sustained.

2 BY MS. WILKENS:

3 Q Did you assume that law enforcement was aware - -

4 A Yes, absolutely.

5 Q - - of what you observed in the bar that night?

6 A Absolutely. He was standing right there at the door.

7 Q All right.

8 A You would think somebody in there would have said,

9 "Hey, check these guys out."

10 Q So you didn't contact the governor because you were

11 concerned that no one was aware of what you saw?

12 A No, just what I saw.

13 Q Well, why did you contact the governor, then?

14 MR. HILE: Objection, asked and answered.

15 THE WITNESS: To tell him what I saw.

16 THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead.

17 BY MS. WILKENS:

18 Q All right. So you contacted the governor to tell him

19 what you saw that night?

20 A

21 Q

Yes.

Okay. But you also believed that law enforcement

22 already would have been aware of what you saw?

23 A That's right, but obviously somebody had dropped their

24 ball, you know, because no one checked those guys out, I

25 guess. I don't know. Maybe they did.

87



2 BY MS. WILKENS:

3 Q Did you assume that law enforcement was aware - -

4 A Yes, absolutely.

5 Q - - of what you observed in the bar that night?

6 A Absolutely. He was standing right there at the door.

7 Q All right.

8 A You would think somebody in there would have said,

9 "Hey, check these guys out."

10 Q So you didn't contact the governor because you were

11 concerned that no one was aware of what you saw?

12 A No, just what I saw.

13 Q Well, why did you contact the governor, then?

14 MR. HILE: Objection, asked and answered.

15 THE WITNESS: To tell him what I saw.

16 THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead.

17 BY MS. WILKENS:

18 Q All right. So you contacted the governor to tell him

19 what you saw that night?

20 A

21 Q

Yes.

Okay. But you also believed that law enforcement

22 already would have been aware of what you saw?

23 A That's right, but obviously somebody had dropped their

24 ball, you know, because no one checked those guys out, I

25 guess. I don't know. Maybe they did.

87


1 Q Now, you called the governor's office, and you weren't

2 getting a call back?

3 A No.

4 Q All right. And you called on, I believe - -

5 A I'm not surprised.

6 Q - - February 2nd?

7 A Yes.

8 Q And then you went onto the Internet on February,

9 because there's a little page attached to your declaration.

10 It's got a printout that says that you were on the Internet

11 that night, correct?

12 A

13 Q

Yes.

Okay. And then you waited until February 6 to call

14 Mr. Alexander?

15 A That's because I was very sick with an upper

16 respiratory, and I was in bed for almost three days, and

17 very will, and I was just kind of -- then a few days went

18 by, I started feeling better, and I heard it was getting

19 closer to the time, and I -- you know, "He never called me

20 back. Okay. So I guess maybe they don't think I'm a

21 credible person or whatever." So I decided to call someone

22 else.

23 Q Now, you state in your declaration that you were very

24 concerned that the information about the two men had not

25 been fully investigated. Are those your words?

88


1 Q Now, you called the governor's office, and you weren't

2 getting a call back?

3 A No.

4 Q All right. And you called on, I believe - -

5 A I'm not surprised.

6 Q - - February 2nd?

7 A Yes.

8 Q And then you went onto the Internet on February,

9 because there's a little page attached to your declaration.

10 It's got a printout that says that you were on the Internet

11 that night, correct?

12 A

13 Q

Yes.

Okay. And then you waited until February 6 to call

14 Mr. Alexander?

15 A That's because I was very sick with an upper

16 respiratory, and I was in bed for almost three days, and

17 very will, and I was just kind of -- then a few days went

18 by, I started feeling better, and I heard it was getting

19 closer to the time, and I -- you know, "He never called me

20 back. Okay. So I guess maybe they don't think I'm a

21 credible person or whatever." So I decided to call someone

22 else.

23 Q Now, you state in your declaration that you were very

24 concerned that the information about the two men had not

25 been fully investigated. Are those your words?

88


1 A Yes. That is true.

2 Q Were those your words?

3 A Yes.

4 Q Now t why would you believe that?

5 A Connect the two. Wellt why wouldntt I think that?

6 Q Okay. So no one ever told you that the matter had not

7 been investigated?

8 A Thatts true t too.

9 MS. WILKENS: Your Honor t I have no further

10 questions.

11

12

13

THE COURT: All right. Redirect.

MR. HILE: Itll be very brief t your Honor.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

14 BY MR. HILE:

15 Q Ms. Slonaker t counsel asked you whether you and Mary

16 Mellon Wolfe spoke about this event this morning. Why

17 didntt you?

We were informed that we shouldntt.

Who told you that?

You.


No other questions t your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. Anything else?

MS. WILKENS: NOt your Honor. Thank you.

89

18 A

19 Q

20 A

21

22

23

24

25 THE COURT: All right. You may step down. Youtre


1 A Yes. That is true.

2 Q Were those your words?

3 A Yes.

4 Q Now t why would you believe that?

5 A Connect the two. Wellt why wouldntt I think that?

6 Q Okay. So no one ever told you that the matter had not

7 been investigated?

8 A Thatts true t too.

9 MS. WILKENS: Your Honor t I have no further

10 questions.

11

12

13

THE COURT: All right. Redirect.

MR. HILE: Itll be very brief t your Honor.


14 BY MR. HILE:

15 Q Ms. Slonaker t counsel asked you whether you and Mary

16 Mellon Wolfe spoke about this event this morning. Why

17 didntt you?

We were informed that we shouldntt.

Who told you that?

You.


No other questions t your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. Anything else?

MS. WILKENS: NOt your Honor. Thank you.

89

18 A

19 Q

20 A

21

22

23

24

25 THE COURT: All right. You may step down. Youtre


1 excused.

2 THE WITNESS: Thank you. Do I take these or do I

3 leave them?

4 THE COURT: Leave the court documents here.

5 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

6 (The witness was excused.)

7

8

THE COURT: You can call your next witness.

MR. ALEXANDER: Petitioner will call Mary Mellon

9 Wolfe. I believe she/s out in the hall l if I may go get

10 her l your Honor.

11

12

THE COURT: You may.

MR. ALEXANDER: May I inquire of the Court what

13 your -- so I can -- what your plans are

14 THE COURT: Weill go until 12:00.

15 MR. ALEXANDER: Until 12:00. Thank you.

THE COURT: And then weill break until 2:00.

MR. ALEXANDER: Until 2:00?

THE COURT: Until 2:00 olclock.

MR. ALEXANDER: Thank you.

THE CLERK: Raise your right hand.

16

17

18

19

20

21 MARY MELLON WOLFE I PETITIONERIS WITNESS I SWORN

22 THE CLERK: State your full name for the record l


24 THE WITNESS: Mary Claire Wolfe. It/s M-A-R-Y I

25 W-O-L-F-E.

90


1 excused.

2 THE WITNESS: Thank you. Do I take these or do I

3 leave them?

4 THE COURT: Leave the court documents here.



7

8

THE COURT: You can call your next witness.

MR. ALEXANDER: Petitioner will call Mary Mellon

9 Wolfe. I believe she's out in the hall, if I may go get

10 her, your Honor.

11

12

THE COURT: You may.

MR. ALEXANDER: May I inquire of the Court what

13 your -- so I can -- what your plans are

14 THE COURT: We'll go until 12:00.

15 MR. ALEXANDER: Until 12:00. Thank you.

THE COURT: And then we'll break until 2:00.

MR. ALEXANDER: Until 2:00?

THE COURT: Until 2:00 o'clock.


THE CLERK: Raise your right hand.

16

17

18

19

20

21 MARY MELLON WOLFE, PETITIONER'S WITNESS, SWORN



24 THE WITNESS: Mary Claire Wolfe. It's M-A-R-Y,

25 W-O-L-F-E.

90


1

2

3

THE COURT: You may inquire.

MR. ALEXANDER: Thank you, your Honor.

DIRECT EXAMINATION

4 BY MR. ALEXANDER:

5 Q Ms. Wolfe, would you please tell the Court where you

6 currently reside?

7 A

8 Q

9 A

10 Q

11 A

12 Q

13 A

14

15

Missouri.

And, more specifically, where in Missouri?

Rocky Mount, Missouri.

Rocky Mount?

Uh-huh.

Is that in Morgan County, Missouri?

Uh-huh.

THE COURT: Is that yes?

THE WITNESS: Yes. Sorry.

16 BY MR. ALEXANDER:

17 Q I forgot to tell you a couple of things. You need to

18 answer audibly, yes or not.

19 A Okay.

20 Q Okay. And, secondly, if you would, as best you can,

21 just answer my question, and we'll go by question and

22 answer, as opposed to what we call a narrative, and then we

23 won't have anybody interrupting, and it will go more

24 efficiently, hopefully.

25 A Okay.

91


1

2

3

THE COURT: You may inquire.

MR. ALEXANDER: Thank you, your Honor.

DIRECT EXAMINATION

4 BY MR. ALEXANDER:

5 Q Ms. Wolfe, would you please tell the Court where you

6 currently reside?

7 A

8 Q

9 A

10 Q

11 A

12 Q

13 A

14

15

Missouri.

And, more specifically, where in Missouri?

Rocky Mount, Missouri.

Rocky Mount?

Uh-huh.

Is that in Morgan County, Missouri?

Uh-huh.

THE COURT: Is that yes?

THE WITNESS: Yes. Sorry.


17 Q I forgot to tell you a couple of things. You need to

18 answer audibly, yes or not.

19 A Okay.

20 Q Okay. And, secondly, if you would, as best you can,

21 just answer my question, and we'll go by question and

22 answer, as opposed to what we call a narrative, and then we

23 won't have anybody interrupting, and it will go more

24 efficiently, hopefully.

25 A Okay.

91


1 Q All right? But I also want you to tell me all you

2 recall, so I don't mean to curb your answers in any way.

3 Now, in June of 1983, Ms. Wolfe, what was your name?

4 A Mary Mellon.

5 Q All right. And where were you born, ma'am?

6 A I was born in Inglewood, California.

7 Q And how long did you live in Inglewood, California?

8 A Eleven years.

9 Q All right. And where did you move from Inglewood?

10 A

11 Q

12 A

13 Q

14 A

15 Q

16 A

17 Q

18 did

19 A

20 Q

21 A

22 Q

23 you

24 A

25 few

Cerritos, California.

Serenos?

Cerritos.

Cerritos, California?

Uh-huh.

And how long did you live there?

Until I was about 18, so probably about seven years.

And then, after living in Cerritos, California, where

you live?

I moved to Ontario/Chino area.

The Chino area?

Uh-huh.

And where, more specifically, in Chino did you live,

recall?

Well, I was a roommate with Christine Slonaker for a

years, and then I lived in the farmhouse behind her.

92

if


1 Q All right? But I also want you to tell me all you

2 recall, so I don't mean to curb your answers in any way.

3 Now, in June of 1983, Ms. Wolfe, what was your name?

4 A Mary Mellon.

5 Q All right. And where were you born, ma'am?

6 A I was born in Inglewood, California.

7 Q And how long did you live in Inglewood, California?

8 A Eleven years.

9 Q All right. And where did you move from Inglewood?

10 A

11 Q

12 A

13 Q

14 A

15 Q

16 A

17 Q

18 did

19 A

20 Q

21 A

22 Q

23 you

24 A

25 few

Cerritos, California.

Serenos?

Cerritos.

Cerritos, California?

Uh-huh.

And how long did you live there?

Until I was about 18, so probably about seven years.

And then, after living in Cerritos, California, where

you live?

I moved to Ontario/Chino area.

The Chino area?

Uh-huh.

And where, more specifically, in Chino did you live,

recall?

Well, I was a roommate with Christine Slonaker for a

years, and then I lived in the farmhouse behind her.

92

if


93

1 Q Okay. Did you live -- during that period of time, did

2 that include the year 1983, when you lived with

3 Ms. Slonaker?

4 A During 1983, either I was with her or the house right

5 behind her. I'm really not sure of that.

6 Q All right. So you either lived in the house or you

7 lived in the farmhouse --

8 A Farmhouse behind her, yes.

9 Q Okay. Was that a farmhouse on the property of

10 Ms. Slonaker?

No, it was just right next door. 11 A

12 Q

13 A

14 Q

15 A

16 Q

17 A

18 Q

I see. All right. And owned by somebody else?

Right.

19 time?

20 A

21 Q

22 A

23 Q

24 A

25 Q

All right.

Yes.

Now, what was your job at that time, if any?

I was an assistant director at a preschool.

And what was, if you know, Ms. Slonaker's name at that

Christine Renfro.

Christine Renfro?

Uh-huh.

And did she have children?

Two.

And do you recall their names?


93

1 Q Okay. Did you live -- during that period of time, did

2 that include the year 1983, when you lived with

3 Ms. Slonaker?

4 A During 1983, either I was with her or the house right

5 behind her. I'm really not sure of that.

6 Q All right. So you either lived in the house or you

7 lived in the farmhouse --

8 A Farmhouse behind her, yes.

9 Q Okay. Was that a farmhouse on the property of

10 Ms. Slonaker?

No, it was just right next door. 11 A

12 Q

13 A

14 Q

15 A

16 Q

17 A

18 Q

I see. All right. And owned by somebody else?

Right.

19 time?

20 A

21 Q

22 A

23 Q

24 A

25 Q

All right.

Yes.

Now, what was your job at that time, if any?

I was an assistant director at a preschool.

And what was, if you know, Ms. Slonaker's name at that

Christine Renfro.

Christine Renfro?

Uh-huh.

And did she have children?

Two.

And do you recall their names?


1 A Matthew and Riannon (phonetic).

2 Q Rianni?

3 A Riannon and Matthew.

4 Q Riannon?

5 A Uh-huh.

6 Q And were either or both of them students of yours in

7 the preschool?

8 A

9 Q

10 A

11 Q

12 A

13 Q

14 A

15 Q

16 A

Riannon was.

Riannon?

Uh-huh.

How long did you live in Chino?

Probably a total of four years.

And do you recall when it is that you left Chino?

Probably around '86.

And where did you move at that time?

At that time, I went to Ontario, lived with my mother

17 for a while.

94

18 Q

19 A

All right. And how long did you live with your mother?

Let's see. Until 1991. I know that because that's

20 when I moved to Missouri.

21 Q All right. And what was the reason for your moving to

22 Missouri?

23 A My husband.

24 Q All right.

25 A He was from Missouri.


1 A Matthew and Riannon (phonetic).

2 Q Rianni?

3 A Riannon and Matthew.

4 Q Riannon?

5 A Uh-huh.

6 Q And were either or both of them students of yours in

7 the preschool?

8 A

9 Q

10 A

11 Q

12 A

13 Q

14 A

15 Q

16 A

Riannon was.

Riannon?

Uh-huh.

How long did you live in Chino?

Probably a total of four years.

And do you recall when it is that you left Chino?

Probably around '86.

And where did you move at that time?

At that time, I went to Ontario, lived with my mother

17 for a while.

94

18 Q

19 A

All right. And how long did you live with your mother?

Let's see. Until 1991. I know that because that's

20 when I moved to Missouri.

21 Q All right. And what was the reason for your moving to

22 Missouri?

23 A My husband.

24 Q All right.

25 A He was from Missouri.


95

1 Q All right. I don/t want to dwell on this at all l but I

2 think you told me recently that you/re presently going

3 through a

4 A A divorce.

5 Q - - painful separation or divorce. Is that correct?

6 A Yes.

7 Q All right. Now l can you tell mel with regard to the

8 Ryens l house 1/11 withdraw that. Did you know -- were

9 you aware of the Ryensl ranch or home in 1983?

10 A I knew the ranch. We were all horse people l ranchers I

11 in the area.

12 Q All right. And relative to where you were living in

13 the farmhouse I can you describe whether or not you could

14 tell us whether or not you could see the Ryensl home?

15 A Yes.

16 Q Okay.

17 A It was around - - up the hill.

18 Q And do you have any idea about how far away it wasl

19 approximately?

20 A

21 Q

Not even a mile.

All right. And where you and Ms. Slonaker lived l or

22 Ms. Renfro at that timel was down the hilll I take it?

Right I yes. 23 A

24 Q All right. Prior to this morning I when was the last

25 time you saw who is now Chris Slonaker?

Echo Reporting I Inc.

95

1 Q All right. I don/t want to dwell on this at all l but I

2 think you told me recently that you/re presently going

3 through a

4 A A divorce.

5 Q - - painful separation or divorce. Is that correct?

6 A Yes.

7 Q All right. Now l can you tell mel with regard to the

8 Ryens l house 1/11 withdraw that. Did you know -- were

9 you aware of the Ryensl ranch or home in 1983?

10 A I knew the ranch. We were all horse people l ranchers I

11 in the area.

12 Q All right. And relative to where you were living in

13 the farmhouse I can you describe whether or not you could

14 tell us whether or not you could see the Ryensl home?

15 A Yes.

16 Q Okay.

17 A It was around - - up the hill.

18 Q And do you have any idea about how far away it wasl

19 approximately?

20 A

21 Q

Not even a mile.

All right. And where you and Ms. Slonaker lived l or

22 Ms. Renfro at that timel was down the hilll I take it?

Right I yes. 23 A

24 Q All right. Prior to this morning I when was the last

25 time you saw who is now Chris Slonaker?


96

1 A Just before I moved to Missouri. It was in '91.

2 Q '91. So that's about 13 years ago?

3 A Correct.

4 Q All right. And when is the last time you recall having

5 any discussions with her at all about the events at the

6 Canyon Corral Bar in 1983?

7 A

8 Q

9 A

Probably three or four years after it happened.

All right.

That's about to the best of my knowledge.

10 Q

lIon?

12 A

13 Q

14 A

15 Q

So you may have had some conversations with her off and

Off and on, yes.

So that would take up to about '86?

Yes.

And that's about the time that you moved back to

16 Ontario with your mother?

17 A Yes.

18 Q Okay. And I take it -- were these conversations just

19 quite infrequent?

20 A At first they were -- I mean, at first we talked about

21 it all the time, and then, as the years went by, we, you

22 know, just didn't talk about it quite as much.

23 Q Okay. So, during the period of time right after it

24 happened, you were talking about it, correct?

25 A Correct, yes.


96

1 A Just before I moved to Missouri. It was in '91.

2 Q '91. So that's about 13 years ago?

3 A Correct.

4 Q All right. And when is the last time you recall having

5 any discussions with her at all about the events at the

6 Canyon Corral Bar in 1983?

7 A

8 Q

9 A

Probably three or four years after it happened.

All right.

That's about to the best of my knowledge.

10 Q

lIon?

12 A

13 Q

14 A

15 Q

So you may have had some conversations with her off and

Off and on, yes.

So that would take up to about '86?

Yes.

And that's about the time that you moved back to

16 Ontario with your mother?

17 A Yes.

18 Q Okay. And I take it -- were these conversations just

19 quite infrequent?

20 A At first they were -- I mean, at first we talked about

21 it all the time, and then, as the years went by, we, you

22 know, just didn't talk about it quite as much.

23 Q Okay. So, during the period of time right after it

24 happened, you were talking about it, correct?

25 A Correct, yes.


97

1 Q Not just with Ms. Slonaker?

2 A With all the area people, and neighbors and people.

3 Q All right. Now, do you recall who lived next door to

4 Ms. Slonaker in 1983?

5 A I cannot think of her name. I can't think of her name,

6 but I know that her sister, Diane, was staying with her at

7 the time. She had a sister, and I remember her name, but I

8 don't remember her sister that actually owned the house.

9 Q Now, this Diane woman, was she a regular resident of

10 the area or was she just visiting?

She was staying with her sister temporarily. 11 A

12 Q And do you know about how long she was staying with her

13 sister? Do you recall? It's going back some time, I

14 understand.

15 A

16 Q

A few months, maybe. Maybe a little longer.

Now, I'll ask the question you're never supposed to ask

17 a women, or at least once upon a time, and that is, how old

18 were you in 1983?

19 A Twenty-three.

20 Q Twenty-three?

21 A Uh-huh.

22 Q Okay. So do you recall the legal drinking age to be 21

23 at that time?

24 A Twenty-one, yes.

25 Q All right. Do you recall, Ms. Wolfe, providing a


97

1 Q Not just with Ms. Slonaker?

2 A With all the area people, and neighbors and people.

3 Q All right. Now, do you recall who lived next door to

4 Ms. Slonaker in 1983?

5 A I cannot think of her name. I can't think of her name,

6 but I know that her sister, Diane, was staying with her at

7 the time. She had a sister, and I remember her name, but I

8 don't remember her sister that actually owned the house.

9 Q Now, this Diane woman, was she a regular resident of

10 the area or was she just visiting?

She was staying with her sister temporarily. 11 A

12 Q And do you know about how long she was staying with her

13 sister? Do you recall? It's going back some time, I

14 understand.

15 A

16 Q

A few months, maybe. Maybe a little longer.

Now, I'll ask the question you're never supposed to ask

17 a women, or at least once upon a time, and that is, how old

18 were you in 1983?

19 A Twenty-three.

20 Q Twenty-three?

21 A Uh-huh.

22 Q Okay. So do you recall the legal drinking age to be 21

23 at that time?

24 A Twenty-one, yes.

25 Q All right. Do you recall, Ms. Wolfe, providing a


98

1 declaration earlier this year?

2 A Yes.

3 Q Now, prior to your providing that declaration, had you

4 talked to Chris Slonaker at all about the incidents at the

5 Canyon Corral Bar on June 4th, 1983, since mid to late

6 1980s?

7 A No.

8 Q And at the time you read and signed your declaration,

9 had you ever read Ms. Slonaker's declaration?

No. 10 A

11 Q At the time you read and signed your declaration, did

12 you have any information about what anybody else said

13 concerning the events of June 4th, 1983, at the Canyon

14 Corral Bar?

15 A No.

16 Q Now, on the evening of June the 4th, 1983, did you and

17 then-Ms. Renfro go to the Canyon Corral Bar?

18 A Yes.

19 Q And was anyone else with you?

20 A Diane.

21 Q And can you tell me, if you recall, 20-some years ago,

22 why it is that Diane went along?

23 A I guess she just pulled her out of the house. You

24 know, I really don't know for sure.

25 Q Had you had much interaction with Diane prior to that


98

1 declaration earlier this year?

2 A Yes.

3 Q Now, prior to your providing that declaration, had you

4 talked to Chris Slonaker at all about the incidents at the

5 Canyon Corral Bar on June 4th, 1983, since mid to late

6 1980s?

7 A No.

8 Q And at the time you read and signed your declaration,

9 had you ever read Ms. Slonaker's declaration?

No. 10 A

11 Q At the time you read and signed your declaration, did

12 you have any information about what anybody else said

13 concerning the events of June 4th, 1983, at the Canyon

14 Corral Bar?

15 A No.

16 Q Now, on the evening of June the 4th, 1983, did you and

17 then-Ms. Renfro go to the Canyon Corral Bar?

18 A Yes.

19 Q And was anyone else with you?

20 A Diane.

21 Q And can you tell me, if you recall, 20-some years ago,

22 why it is that Diane went along?

23 A I guess she just pulled her out of the house. You

24 know, I really don't know for sure.

25 Q Had you had much interaction with Diane prior to that


1 evening?

2 A We hadn't known each other very long.

3 Q And do you know if she had much of a social life?

4 A That I'm not sure.

5 Q All right. And who invited Diane to come along? Do

6 you know?

7 A I believe I did.

8 Q

9 A

10 Q

You did?

I believe so.

All right. And was there a reason why you invited her

11 to come along?

12 A

13 Q

Because she had nothing to do.

Okay. How frequently, if you recall, again, did you

14 visit -- I'm sorry -- go to the Canyon Corral Bar at that

99

15 period of time, in summer of '83 or spring summer of '83?

16 A

17 Q

Probably once or twice a month.

Okay. Now, I believe there is some mention, either in

18 a declaration or in a statement that you gave, of a woman by

19 the name of Nancy?

20 A Correct. That was incorrect, though. I wasn't sure of

21 her name.

22 Q All right. Do you now recall who you believe that

23 who were you thinking of when you gave the name Nancy?

24 A I was picturing Laurie. I think she was a waitress

25 there.


1 evening?

2 A We hadn't known each other very long.

3 Q And do you know if she had much of a social life?


5 Q All right. And who invited Diane to come along? Do

6 you know?

7 A I believe I did.

8 Q

9 A

10 Q

You did?

I believe so.

All right. And was there a reason why you invited her

11 to come along?

12 A

13 Q

Because she had nothing to do.

Okay. How frequently, if you recall, again, did you

14 visit -- I'm sorry -- go to the Canyon Corral Bar at that

99

15 period of time, in summer of '83 or spring summer of '83?

16 A

17 Q

Probably once or twice a month.

Okay. Now, I believe there is some mention, either in

18 a declaration or in a statement that you gave, of a woman by

19 the name of Nancy?

20 A Correct. That was incorrect, though. I wasn't sure of

21 her name.

22 Q All right. Do you now recall who you believe that

23 who were you thinking of when you gave the name Nancy?

24 A I was picturing Laurie. I think she was a waitress

25 there.


100

1 Q All right. Now, on the evening of June the 4th, 1983,

2 do you recall when you, Ms. Renfro, and Diane got to the

3 Canyon Corral Bar?

4 A I would say probably between 9:00, 9:30.

5 Q All right. And did you go there to eat?

6 A Yes.

7 Q All right. And did you have any drinks that evening at

8 the

9 A

10 Q

11 A

12 Q

13 A

14 Q

15 A

16 Q

17 you

18 A

19 Q

bar?

I had one.

You had one drink?

Yes.

Were you much of a drinker at that time?

Not at all, no.

Have you been much of a drinker, ever?

No.

All right. Now, do you also recall when the three of

left the bar that evening?

Yes.

Okay. And approximately what time or how long do you

20 recall that you were there?

21 A

22 Q

I would say maybe 11:00, maybe 11:30 in the evening.

All right. Now, I'm going to ask you, as we move

23 forward, about some men in the bar, but I first want to ask

24 you, when relative to these men leaving the bar, three men

25 leaving the bar, did you leave the bar?


100

1 Q All right. Now, on the evening of June the 4th, 1983,

2 do you recall when you, Ms. Renfro, and Diane got to the

3 Canyon Corral Bar?

4 A I would say probably between 9:00, 9:30.

5 Q All right. And did you go there to eat?

6 A Yes.

7 Q All right. And did you have any drinks that evening at

8 the

9 A

10 Q

11 A

12 Q

13 A

14 Q

15 A

16 Q

17 you

18 A

19 Q

bar?

I had one.

You had one drink?

Yes.

Were you much of a drinker at that time?

Not at all, no.

Have you been much of a drinker, ever?

No.

All right. Now, do you also recall when the three of

left the bar that evening?

Yes.

Okay. And approximately what time or how long do you

20 recall that you were there?

21 A

22 Q

I would say maybe 11:00, maybe 11:30 in the evening.

All right. Now, I'm going to ask you, as we move

23 forward, about some men in the bar, but I first want to ask

24 you, when relative to these men leaving the bar, three men

25 leaving the bar, did you leave the bar?


101

1 A Probably not too long after.

2 Q Okay. Well, when you say "not too long," a few

3 minutes?

4 A Twenty minutes to a half-hour, maybe.

5 Q That much longer. Okay.

6 A Around that.

7 Q Okay. Ms. Wolfe, how were you first contacted in

8 connection with providing your declaration in this matter?

9 A I had Morgan County sheriff come to my house and leave

10 a message to contact -- I can't think of her name right

11 now -- to contact somebody on it.

12 Q And do you have a phone at your home?

13 A Not at that time, no, but I do now.

14 Q You do now?

15 A Yes.

16 Q All right.

17 A Yes.

18 Q And do you recall approximately when you were contacted

19 by the Morgan County Sheriff's Department to make a call?

20 A You mean the date?

21 Q Yes, the day.

22 A February, somewhere in February.

23 Q Okay. Do you remember more precisely the date?

24 A About the middle of February.

25 Q And were you at that time - - do you remember if it was


101

1 A Probably not too long after.

2 Q Okay. Well, when you say "not too long," a few

3 minutes?

4 A Twenty minutes to a half-hour, maybe.

5 Q That much longer. Okay.

6 A Around that.

7 Q Okay. Ms. Wolfe, how were you first contacted in

8 connection with providing your declaration in this matter?

9 A I had Morgan County sheriff come to my house and leave

10 a message to contact -- I can't think of her name right

11 now -- to contact somebody on it.

12 Q And do you have a phone at your home?

13 A Not at that time, no, but I do now.

14 Q You do now?

15 A Yes.

16 Q All right.

17 A Yes.

18 Q And do you recall approximately when you were contacted

19 by the Morgan County Sheriff's Department to make a call?

20 A You mean the date?

21 Q Yes, the day.

22 A February, somewhere in February.

23 Q Okay. Do you remember more precisely the date?

24 A About the middle of February.

25 Q And were you at that time - - do you remember if it was


-

102

1 on a Saturday or a Sunday?

2 A It was a weekday. I know it was a weekday, probably a

3 Tuesday or a Wednesday.

4 Q Did you return the call?

5 A Yes.

6 Q All right. And you spoke with someone?

7 A Right, yes.

8 Q Was it a man or a woman, if you recall?

9 A It was a woman.

10 Q All right. And did the woman then proceed to ask you

11 some questions?

12 A

13 Q

She asked me if I would do a statement over the phone.

All right. And what did she ask you to do a statement

14 over the phone about?

15 A What I best remembered the night that we were at the

16 Canyon Corral.

17 Q Did she first ask you whether you remembered being at

18 the Canyon Corral Bar that night?

19 A

20 Q

Yes.

All right. And then did you, from memory, relate to

21 her the matters that you set forth in your declaration?

22 A

23 Q

Yes.

All right. And is this the first -- was that the first

24 time that you had thought about the evening at the Canyon

25 Corral Bar on June 4th, 1983, in close to 20 years?


-

102

1 on a Saturday or a Sunday?

2 A It was a weekday. I know it was a weekday, probably a

3 Tuesday or a Wednesday.

4 Q Did you return the call?

5 A Yes.

6 Q All right. And you spoke with someone?

7 A Right, yes.

8 Q Was it a man or a woman, if you recall?

9 A It was a woman.

10 Q All right. And did the woman then proceed to ask you

11 some questions?

12 A

13 Q

She asked me if I would do a statement over the phone.

All right. And what did she ask you to do a statement

14 over the phone about?

15 A What I best remembered the night that we were at the

16 Canyon Corral.

17 Q Did she first ask you whether you remembered being at

18 the Canyon Corral Bar that night?

19 A

20 Q

Yes.

All right. And then did you, from memory, relate to

21 her the matters that you set forth in your declaration?

22 A

23 Q

Yes.

All right. And is this the first -- was that the first

24 time that you had thought about the evening at the Canyon

25 Corral Bar on June 4th, 1983, in close to 20 years?


103

1 A Well, I did see a 48 Hours Investigates about six

2 months prior, and that was the last time I actually thought

3 about it.

4 Q Okay. And was that in approximately September of last

5 year, 2003, the 48 Hours?

6 A Probably even sooner.

7 Q Sooner, a little more closer in time?

8 A Yes.

9 Q Okay. And do you recall whether there was anything

10 about the Canyon Corral Bar on that program?

11 A Nothing at all.

12 Q All right. Now, when you gave a statement to the woman

13 on the phone, did you have any notes or anything in front of

14 you?

15 A

16

17

18

No.

19 schedule.

20

MR. ALEXANDER: Your Honor, I want to -

THE COURT: You want a break right now?

MR. ALEXANDER: Well, I want to abide by your

THE COURT: Okay. We'll take a recess now. We'll

21 be in recess until 2:00 o'clock.

22 MR. ALEXANDER: Thank you very much, your Honor.

23 Thank you, Ms. Wolfe.


25 (Proceedings recessed for lunch at 12:00 p.m.)


103

1 A Well, I did see a 48 Hours Investigates about six

2 months prior, and that was the last time I actually thought

3 about it.

4 Q Okay. And was that in approximately September of last

5 year, 2003, the 48 Hours?

6 A Probably even sooner.

7 Q Sooner, a little more closer in time?

8 A Yes.

9 Q Okay. And do you recall whether there was anything

10 about the Canyon Corral Bar on that program?

11 A Nothing at all.

12 Q All right. Now, when you gave a statement to the woman

13 on the phone, did you have any notes or anything in front of

14 you?

15 A

16

17

18

No.

19 schedule.

20

MR. ALEXANDER: Your Honor, I want to -

THE COURT: You want a break right now?

MR. ALEXANDER: Well, I want to abide by your

THE COURT: Okay. We'll take a recess now. We'll

21 be in recess until 2:00 o'clock.

22 MR. ALEXANDER: Thank you very much, your Honor.

23 Thank you, Ms. Wolfe.


25 (Proceedings recessed for lunch at 12:00 p.m.)


1

2

3 continue.

4

AFTERNOON SESSION

THE COURT: Wetre back in session. You may

MR. ALEXANDER: Thank you t your Honor.

5

6

MARY MELLON WOLFE t PETITIONERtS WITNESS t RESWORN

DIRECT EXAMINATION (RESUMED)

7 BY MR. ALEXANDER:

8 Q Ms. Wolfe t I forgot to ask you about your educational

104

9 background this morning t and I wondered if you would briefly

10 describe that for the Court.

11 A Wellt I have an associate arts degree in early

12 childhood education t and I just recently graduated from a

13 tech school on -- cantt even talk t sorry. Itm really

14 nervous.

15 Q Okay.

16 A Land surveying and mapping and architectural drafting

17 Q Did you say landscape drafting and architectural

18 drafting?

19 A Land surveying and mapping and architectural drafting.

20 Q Okay. And that was very recently?

21 A

22 Q

23 A

24 Q

25 A

Just a couple months ago.

All right. And are you currently employed?

Yes. I work at a restaurant.

You wait at a restaurant?

A cook t cook and waitress at a restaurant.


1

2

3 continue.

4

AFTERNOON SESSION

THE COURT: Wetre back in session. You may

MR. ALEXANDER: Thank you t your Honor.

5

6

MARY MELLON WOLFE t PETITIONERtS WITNESS t RESWORN

DIRECT EXAMINATION (RESUMED)

7 BY MR. ALEXANDER:

8 Q Ms. Wolfe t I forgot to ask you about your educational

104

9 background this morning t and I wondered if you would briefly

10 describe that for the Court.

11 A Wellt I have an associate arts degree in early

12 childhood education t and I just recently graduated from a

13 tech school on -- cantt even talk t sorry. Itm really

14 nervous.

15 Q Okay.

16 A Land surveying and mapping and architectural drafting

17 Q Did you say landscape drafting and architectural

18 drafting?

19 A Land surveying and mapping and architectural drafting.

20 Q Okay. And that was very recently?

21 A

22 Q

23 A

24 Q

25 A

Just a couple months ago.

All right. And are you currently employed?

Yes. I work at a restaurant.

You wait at a restaurant?

A cook t cook and waitress at a restaurant.


1 Q Okay. And are you in the process of looking for

2 employment consistent with your recent degree?

3 A Yes/ I am.

4 MS. WILKENS: Objection/ irrelevant.


6 BY MR. ALEXANDER:

7 Q Ms. Wolfe/ on the occasions that you would go to the

8 Canyon Corral Bar/ was there a place that you typically

9 would sit?

10 A

11 Q

12 A

13 Q

We usually would sit at a booth.

At one of the booths/ not any particular booth?

No/ just whatever usually was open at the time.

Okay. Now/ I know this is whatever we keep

14 saying -- 21 years ago/ but/ to the best of your

15 recollection/ do you recall where you sat the evening of

16 January the -- I/m sorry -- June the 4th/ 1983?

17 A The best of my recollection/ it was at one of the

18 booths.

At one of the booths?

Right.

105

19 Q

20 A

21 Q Okay. And once again to the best of your recollection/

22 when did you first notice three men coming into the bar

23 together?

24 A Probably about -- well/ when they walked in the front

25 door.


1 Q Okay. And are you in the process of looking for

2 employment consistent with your recent degree?

3 A Yes/ I am.

4 MS. WILKENS: Objection/ irrelevant.


6 BY MR. ALEXANDER:

7 Q Ms. Wolfe/ on the occasions that you would go to the

8 Canyon Corral Bar/ was there a place that you typically

9 would sit?

10 A

11 Q

12 A

13 Q

We usually would sit at a booth.

At one of the booths/ not any particular booth?

No/ just whatever usually was open at the time.

Okay. Now/ I know this is whatever we keep

14 saying -- 21 years ago/ but/ to the best of your

15 recollection/ do you recall where you sat the evening of

16 January the -- I/m sorry -- June the 4th/ 1983?

17 A The best of my recollection/ it was at one of the

18 booths.

At one of the booths?

Right.

105

19 Q

20 A

21 Q Okay. And once again to the best of your recollection/

22 when did you first notice three men coming into the bar

23 together?

24 A Probably about -- well/ when they walked in the front

25 door.


1 Q When they walked in the front door, you say?

2 A Yes.

3 Q Okay. Now, I wanted to show you --

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

Court?

book, and

MR. ALEXANDER: Is there a copy of this to the

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yes.

MR. ALEXANDER: Are they in the book already?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: No.


UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: They're in the witness

Nathan has the Court's copy.

MR. ALEXANDER: Sorry.

I'm going to show you, Ms. Wolfe, a diagram that

14 appears to have your signature on it, dated April 8, 2004,

15 that, your Honor, I'm informed by the Respondent is marked

16 as TTT-l, following the SSS-l in the books.


106

17

18 MR. ALEXANDER: And I don't know if it's actually

19 in the Court's book. I think that your Honor's clerk may

20 have the Court's copy.

21

22 marked?

23

THE COURT: You need to give it to -- has it been

MR. ALEXANDER: It's been marked by the

24 Respondent, your Honor, as TTT-l, and I was provided a copy

25 when we came back from lunch.


1 Q When they walked in the front door, you say?

2 A Yes.

3 Q Okay. Now, I wanted to show you --

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

Court?

book, and

MR. ALEXANDER: Is there a copy of this to the


MR. ALEXANDER: Are they in the book already?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: No.


UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: They're in the witness

Nathan has the Court's copy.

MR. ALEXANDER: Sorry.

I'm going to show you, Ms. Wolfe, a diagram that

14 appears to have your signature on it, dated April 8, 2004,

15 that, your Honor, I'm informed by the Respondent is marked

16 as TTT-l, following the SSS-l in the books.


106

17

18 MR. ALEXANDER: And I don't know if it's actually

19 in the Court's book. I think that your Honor's clerk may

20 have the Court's copy.

21

22 marked?

23

THE COURT: You need to give it to -- has it been

MR. ALEXANDER: It's been marked by the

24 Respondent, your Honor, as TTT-l, and I was provided a copy

25 when we came back from lunch.


~

107

1 MS. WILKENS: Yes, your Honor.

2 THE COURT: It's not marked with a sticker?

3 MR. ALEXANDER: That's correct. Let me take care

4 of --

5 MS. WILKENS: I'm sorry.

6 THE COURT: It's not marked with an exhibit

7 sticker?

8 MS. WILKENS: Only in the exhibit book. I'm

9 sorry.

10 THE COURT: So it should be marked with a --

11 MR. ALEXANDER: Yes, your Honor, and why don't we

12 mark it as TTT-l with a sticker.

13

14

15 marked.

16

THE COURT: Got it.

MR. ALEXANDER: I think the witness' copy has been

THE COURT: You can bring a sticker, exhibit

17 sticker, over and place it on the exhibit.

18

19

MS. WILKENS: It is.

MR. ALEXANDER: I believe it's on that exhibit

20 already, your Honor.

21 MS. WILKENS: Sticker in the exhibit book. I'm

22 sorry, your Honor.

23

24

25

THE COURT: All right. Thank you.

MS. WILKENS: I didn't ask you that, then.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Okay.


~

107

1 MS. WILKENS: Yes, your Honor.

2 THE COURT: It's not marked with a sticker?

3 MR. ALEXANDER: That's correct. Let me take care

4 of --

5 MS. WILKENS: I'm sorry.

6 THE COURT: It's not marked with an exhibit

7 sticker?

8 MS. WILKENS: Only in the exhibit book. I'm

9 sorry.

10 THE COURT: So it should be marked with a --

11 MR. ALEXANDER: Yes, your Honor, and why don't we

12 mark it as TTT-l with a sticker.

13

14

15 marked.

16

THE COURT: Got it.

MR. ALEXANDER: I think the witness' copy has been

THE COURT: You can bring a sticker, exhibit

17 sticker, over and place it on the exhibit.

18

19

MS. WILKENS: It is.

MR. ALEXANDER: I believe it's on that exhibit

20 already, your Honor.

21 MS. WILKENS: Sticker in the exhibit book. I'm

22 sorry, your Honor.

23

24

25

THE COURT: All right. Thank you.

MS. WILKENS: I didn't ask you that, then.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Okay.


1

2

3

THE COURT: I didn't understand.

You may proceed.

MR. ALEXANDER: Okay. Thank you, your Honor.

4 BY MR. ALEXANDER:

5 Q Now, Ms. Wolfe, do you recognize what has been

6 identified as Exhibit TTT-1?

7 A Yes.

8 Q And is that your signature on the right, about a

9 quarter of the way down?

Yes, it is.

108

10 A

11 Q All right. And what were the circumstances under which

12 you drew this picture?

13 A The detective that came out to talk to me, he wanted to

14 know about where I thought we were sitting at the time.

15 Q All right. So this is your handwriting?

16 A Yes, it is.

17 Q And this is done pretty much from your memory?

18 A Yes.

19 Q You didn't have anything to assist you at the time?

20 A No.

21 Q All right. And it says, "Front. " Is that the front

22 door?

23 A Yes, it is.

24 Q All right. And the front door is somewhat to the right

25 of the center of the bar. Is that correct?


1

2

3

THE COURT: I didn't understand.

You may proceed.

MR. ALEXANDER: Okay. Thank you, your Honor.

4 BY MR. ALEXANDER:

5 Q Now, Ms. Wolfe, do you recognize what has been

6 identified as Exhibit TTT-1?

7 A Yes.

8 Q And is that your signature on the right, about a

9 quarter of the way down?

Yes, it is.

108

10 A

11 Q All right. And what were the circumstances under which

12 you drew this picture?

13 A The detective that came out to talk to me, he wanted to

14 know about where I thought we were sitting at the time.

15 Q All right. So this is your handwriting?

16 A Yes, it is.

17 Q And this is done pretty much from your memory?

18 A Yes.

19 Q You didn't have anything to assist you at the time?

20 A No.

21 Q All right. And it says, "Front. " Is that the front

22 door?

23 A Yes, it is.

24 Q All right. And the front door is somewhat to the right

25 of the center of the bar. Is that correct?


109

1 A Yes.

2 Q All right. And then the X -- can you tell me what the

3 X indicates, as best you recall?

4 A The booth, you know, that we were sitting in, that I

5 remember.

6 Q Okay. Now, were you sitting -- if you can describe how

7 the booth was positioned. If we turn so that the front is

8 at the bottom of the page, all right, as if somebody were

9 entering the front and then going down to that booth, I take

10 it that the backs of the booths are the two lines that frame

11 the X?

12 A Right, but you mean the backs of the booths that we're

13 sitting in?

14 Q

15 A

16 Q

17 A

18 Q

19 X?

20 A

21 Q

22 A

23 Q

Yes.

Correct.

Okay. And which side of the booth were you sitting on?

I was sitting facing the door, front door.

Okay. So your back is to the left line that frames the

Yes.

All right. And was anybody sitting next to you?

Diane.

Diane. Okay. So you and Diane are sitting with your

24 backs against the booth, and your faces are so that you

25 would see somebody coming in the door, correct?


109

1 A Yes.

2 Q All right. And then the X -- can you tell me what the

3 X indicates, as best you recall?

4 A The booth, you know, that we were sitting in, that I

5 remember.

6 Q Okay. Now, were you sitting -- if you can describe how

7 the booth was positioned. If we turn so that the front is

8 at the bottom of the page, all right, as if somebody were

9 entering the front and then going down to that booth, I take

10 it that the backs of the booths are the two lines that frame

11 the X?

12 A Right, but you mean the backs of the booths that we're

13 sitting in?

14 Q

15 A

16 Q

17 A

18 Q

19 X?

20 A

21 Q

22 A

23 Q

Yes.

Correct.

Okay. And which side of the booth were you sitting on?

I was sitting facing the door, front door.

Okay. So your back is to the left line that frames the

Yes.

All right. And was anybody sitting next to you?

Diane.

Diane. Okay. So you and Diane are sitting with your

24 backs against the booth, and your faces are so that you

25 would see somebody coming in the door, correct?


110

1 A Yes.

2 Q All right. And then where was Ms. Renfro l or now

3 Ms. Slonaker l sitting?

4 A Right acrOSS I on the other side of the booth.

5 Q Okay. SOl if her back was to the front door l she

6 wouldn/t see people coming in when they walked in. Is that

7 correct?

8

9

MS. WILKENS: Objection.

THE WITNESS: Not the front door l no.


11 Q

12 A

13 it.

14 Q

11m sorry. Is what I said correct?

Not the front door l she wouldn/t have. Her back was to

Okay. She/d have to turn around to do that. Is that

15 correct?

16 A

17 Q

Correct.

All right. Thank you. Now l when you first saw the

18 three men come into the barl did you recognize them?

19 A

20 Q

21 A

No.

All right. Had you ever seen them before in the bar?

No. That/s why I noticed them l because I just -- there

22 was a lot of familiar faces that usually went there all the

23 timel and l you know I they just weren/t from the area. They

24 were new faces.

25 Q Had you ever seen them in the area before l on the


110

1 A Yes.

2 Q All right. And then where was Ms. Renfro l or now

3 Ms. Slonaker l sitting?

4 A Right acrOSS I on the other side of the booth.

5 Q Okay. SOl if her back was to the front door l she

6 wouldn/t see people coming in when they walked in. Is that

7 correct?

8

9

MS. WILKENS: Objection.

THE WITNESS: Not the front door l no.


11 Q

12 A

13 it.

14 Q

11m sorry. Is what I said correct?

Not the front door l she wouldn/t have. Her back was to

Okay. She/d have to turn around to do that. Is that

15 correct?

16 A

17 Q

Correct.

All right. Thank you. Now l when you first saw the

18 three men come into the barl did you recognize them?

19 A

20 Q

21 A

No.

All right. Had you ever seen them before in the bar?

No. That/s why I noticed them l because I just -- there

22 was a lot of familiar faces that usually went there all the

23 timel and l you know I they just weren/t from the area. They

24 were new faces.

25 Q Had you ever seen them in the area before l on the


111

1 streets or the roads or the like?

2 A No.

3 Q And were you involved in horse raising?

4 A Training, yes.

5 Q Training. I'm sorry. Shows you my experience. You

6 were involved in training of horses in that area?

7 A Correct.

8 Q And you'd never run into them in that context, either?

9 A

10 Q

No.

All right. And had you seen these gentlemen in the bar

11 earlier in the evening, prior to your seeing them walk in?

12 A

13 Q

No.

You had not?

14 A No.

15 Q Do you recall approximately what time it was in the

16 evening that you saw the men for the first time?

17 A It was probably around 9:30, 10:00.

18 Q Okay. Do you recall how --

19 A Or maybe later than that, because -- let me think about

20 this.

21 Q

22 A

23 Q

24 A

25 Q

Yes, please do.

It's been a long time.

I understand.

It could have even been around 11:00 before we left.

Okay.


111

1 streets or the roads or the like?

2 A No.

3 Q And were you involved in horse raising?

4 A Training, yes.

5 Q Training. I'm sorry. Shows you my experience. You

6 were involved in training of horses in that area?

7 A Correct.

8 Q And you'd never run into them in that context, either?

9 A

10 Q

No.

All right. And had you seen these gentlemen in the bar

11 earlier in the evening, prior to your seeing them walk in?

12 A

13 Q

No.

You had not?

14 A No.

15 Q Do you recall approximately what time it was in the

16 evening that you saw the men for the first time?

17 A It was probably around 9:30, 10:00.

18 Q Okay. Do you recall how --

19 A Or maybe later than that, because -- let me think about

20 this.

21 Q

22 A

23 Q

24 A

25 Q

Yes, please do.

It's been a long time.

I understand.

It could have even been around 11:00 before we left.

Okay.


112

1 A Yes.

2 Q All right. But you're confident that you only saw them

3 come into the bar one time?

4 A I only saw them come in one time.

5 Q Okay. Now, by the way, what was the lighting like in

6 the bar when these men came in?

7 A Very dim.

8 Q Very dim. Okay. And was there a practice, if you

9 know, based on the times that you've gone to the bar, of

10 dimming the lights at some particular time?

11 A Usually, when the band would start, then they would dim

12 the lights, and then, after the kitchen would close, they'd

13 dim them even more.

14 Q All right. Would it be fair to characterize the bar,

15 based on the comment you just made, as sort of a

16 neighborhood bar?

17 A

18 Q

19 A

20 Q

Correct.

All right.

It was a lot of locals that would go in there and eat.

And do you recall that evening how many people you

21 think were in the bar about the time these men walked in?

22 A I would say it was pretty full at the time, because it

23 was about when the band was kicking in, and that's when

24 people would start showing up.

25 Q And so can you give me an estimate as to the number,


112

1 A Yes.

2 Q All right. But you're confident that you only saw them

3 come into the bar one time?

4 A I only saw them come in one time.

5 Q Okay. Now, by the way, what was the lighting like in

6 the bar when these men came in?

7 A Very dim.

8 Q Very dim. Okay. And was there a practice, if you

9 know, based on the times that you've gone to the bar, of

10 dimming the lights at some particular time?

11 A Usually, when the band would start, then they would dim

12 the lights, and then, after the kitchen would close, they'd

13 dim them even more.

14 Q All right. Would it be fair to characterize the bar,

15 based on the comment you just made, as sort of a

16 neighborhood bar?

17 A

18 Q

19 A

20 Q

Correct.

All right.

It was a lot of locals that would go in there and eat.

And do you recall that evening how many people you

21 think were in the bar about the time these men walked in?

22 A I would say it was pretty full at the time, because it

23 was about when the band was kicking in, and that's when

24 people would start showing up.

25 Q And so can you give me an estimate as to the number,


113

1 best guesstimate?

2 A Well, it's' a small bar, so I would say maybe 30, maybe

3 more.

4 Q Okay. Very well.

5 A I'm not sure.

6 Q All right. Now, at some point in time, did you see any

7 or all of the men behind the bar?

8 A Well, I saw one.

9 Q All right. You've answered my question. And looking

10 at Exhibit TTT-l, I see you've drawn some circles. Can you

11 tell us what the circles reflect?

The barstools. 12 A

13 Q Barstools. Okay. And so the barstools not only went

14 in the front of the bar, but they went over kind of

15 perpendicular?

16 A To the one side, yes, to the left side.

17 Q All right. And where is the dance floor area?

18 A In the left-hand corner.

19 Q Okay. So if we're again with the front at the bottom,

20 the left-hand corner is the upper left-hand corner?

21 A Right. I didn't draw the bathrooms in.

22 Q Okay.

23 A It's one thing I missed. There's bathrooms to the

24 left, but it would be the left-hand corner by the back door.

25 Q Okay. Now, you see those two little dashes that are up


113

1 best guesstimate?

2 A Well, it's' a small bar, so I would say maybe 30, maybe

3 more.

4 Q Okay. Very well.

5 A I'm not sure.

6 Q All right. Now, at some point in time, did you see any

7 or all of the men behind the bar?

8 A Well, I saw one.

9 Q All right. You've answered my question. And looking

10 at Exhibit TTT-l, I see you've drawn some circles. Can you

11 tell us what the circles reflect?

The barstools. 12 A

13 Q Barstools. Okay. And so the barstools not only went

14 in the front of the bar, but they went over kind of

15 perpendicular?

16 A To the one side, yes, to the left side.

17 Q All right. And where is the dance floor area?

18 A In the left-hand corner.

19 Q Okay. So if we're again with the front at the bottom,

20 the left-hand corner is the upper left-hand corner?

21 A Right. I didn't draw the bathrooms in.

22 Q Okay.

23 A It's one thing I missed. There's bathrooms to the

24 left, but it would be the left-hand corner by the back door.

25 Q Okay. Now, you see those two little dashes that are up


114

1 at the top line?

2 A Yes.

3 Q What do those represent to you?

4 A The back door.

5 Q All right. Now t do you know if there was another door

6 in the back?

7 A There was one that came from the kitchen that just

8 like t you know t the kitchen help used.

9 Q All right. And you described for a moment -- you said

10 you left the bathrooms off. Do you know whether -- was that

11 right below the area that you designated as the dance floor?

12 A

13 Q

14 A

It was to the left side.

Left side?

Right. There was like a little hall t and then there

15 wast like t the woments bathroom was on one side and the

16 ments was on the other.

17 Q Okay. And would that bathroom areat that hall t

18 protrude out from the far-left line in your diagram?

19 A You mean to the left?

20 Q Yes.

21 A Yes. It would be like a little hallway.

22 Q Okay.

23 A Yes.

24 Q And was there a door to the outside there?

25 A I believe SOt yes.


114

1 at the top line?

2 A Yes.

3 Q What do those represent to you?

4 A The back door.

5 Q All right. Now t do you know if there was another door

6 in the back?

7 A There was one that came from the kitchen that just

8 like t you know t the kitchen help used.

9 Q All right. And you described for a moment -- you said

10 you left the bathrooms off. Do you know whether -- was that

11 right below the area that you designated as the dance floor?

12 A

13 Q

14 A

It was to the left side.

Left side?

Right. There was like a little hall t and then there

15 wast like t the woments bathroom was on one side and the

16 ments was on the other.

17 Q Okay. And would that bathroom areat that hall t

18 protrude out from the far-left line in your diagram?

19 A You mean to the left?

20 Q Yes.

21 A Yes. It would be like a little hallway.

22 Q Okay.

23 A Yes.

24 Q And was there a door to the outside there?

25 A I believe SOt yes.


115

1 Q Okay.

2 A And there was a pay phone in there, too.

3 Q And there was a pay phone. Now, were there also doors

4 to that hallway? Do you recall?

5 A I don't think -- I think it was more just like a

6 walkway.

7 Q All right. You don't recall whether or not there were

8 doors right when you moved from the inside of the bar to

9 head down the walkway, the hallway?

10 A

11 Q

I don't recall.

Okay. You don't recall. All right. Very well. Now,

12 I'm going to ask you to look, if you would, at Exhibit SSS-l

13 in the book. It's right before TTT-l. And, specifically,

14 if you would look at a drawing that has Ms. well, it

15 has appears to be Ms. Slonaker's writing at the bottom,

16 and it's a drawing or diagram of the inside of the bar. Do

17 you see that?

18 A Uh-huh.

19 Q Do you have your glasses?

20 A Yes, I'm getting my glasses on. Hers is a little bit

21 more detailed. Okay.

22 Q Were you shown this by the detective who came to see

23 you?

24 A No.

25 Q Okay. Have you ever seen this before today?


115

1 Q Okay.

2 A And there was a pay phone in there, too.

3 Q And there was a pay phone. Now, were there also doors

4 to that hallway? Do you recall?

5 A I don't think -- I think it was more just like a

6 walkway.

7 Q All right. You don't recall whether or not there were

8 doors right when you moved from the inside of the bar to

9 head down the walkway, the hallway?

10 A

11 Q

I don't recall.

Okay. You don't recall. All right. Very well. Now,

12 I'm going to ask you to look, if you would, at Exhibit SSS-l

13 in the book. It's right before TTT-l. And, specifically,

14 if you would look at a drawing that has Ms. well, it

15 has appears to be Ms. Slonaker's writing at the bottom,

16 and it's a drawing or diagram of the inside of the bar. Do

17 you see that?

18 A Uh-huh.

19 Q Do you have your glasses?

20 A Yes, I'm getting my glasses on. Hers is a little bit

21 more detailed. Okay.

22 Q Were you shown this by the detective who came to see

23 you?

24 A No.

25 Q Okay. Have you ever seen this before today?


116

1 A This is the first time.

2 Q All right. Now, I want to direct your attention -- in

3 regards to my earlier question, I believe you said you did

4 see one or more of the men behind the bar?

5 A Well, I didn't - - he wasn't actually behind the bar.

6 It's like he had walked around, because there was a door

7 that went into the kitchen, like he had walked around and

8 was just standing in the doorway that would go into the bar

9 off the kitchen.

10 Q All right. Now, let's see if we can follow that in our

11 diagram here. Do you see on the right wall, near the top,

12 inside the bar, it says, "Swing door"?

13 A Yes.

14 Q Okay. And then to its left there's another swing door?

15 A Right, and that one came right into the bar view, right

16 behind the bar.

17 Q Okay. And where behind the -- well, withdraw that.

18 How many of the men did you see behind the bar, as best you

19 recall?

20 A

21 Q

22 A

23 Q

Just the one.

Just the one fellow?

Just one.

Okay. And did you see how he got to the area behind

24 the bar?

25 A I didn't see it, but I assumed that he was probably


116

1 A This is the first time.

2 Q All right. Now, I want to direct your attention -- in

3 regards to my earlier question, I believe you said you did

4 see one or more of the men behind the bar?

5 A Well, I didn't - - he wasn't actually behind the bar.

6 It's like he had walked around, because there was a door

7 that went into the kitchen, like he had walked around and

8 was just standing in the doorway that would go into the bar

9 off the kitchen.

10 Q All right. Now, let's see if we can follow that in our

11 diagram here. Do you see on the right wall, near the top,

12 inside the bar, it says, "Swing door"?

13 A Yes.

14 Q Okay. And then to its left there's another swing door?

15 A Right, and that one came right into the bar view, right

16 behind the bar.

17 Q Okay. And where behind the -- well, withdraw that.

18 How many of the men did you see behind the bar, as best you

19 recall?

20 A

21 Q

22 A

23 Q

Just the one.

Just the one fellow?

Just one.

Okay. And did you see how he got to the area behind

24 the bar?

25 A I didn't see it, but I assumed that he was probably


117

1 looking for the bathroom or something l and he walked through

2 the wrong door l and he came out the other one

3 Q SOl if you went --

4 A -- you know l was trying to come out the other one.

5 Q Okay. I apologize. If you went through the swinging

6 door on the far right there -- all right?

7 A Yes.

8 Q And where would that take you?

Into the kitchen. 9 A

10 Q All right. And then l if you were going to be behind

11 the door l would you come through those other swing doors?

12 A 11m sorry. I don/t understand.

13 Q Yes. You/d come through the swing door on the right I

14 and that would lead you into the kitchen l correct?

15 A Correct.

16 Q And in order to come out behind the barl would you go

17 through that other swing door that/s to the left?

18 A You would have to walk through the kitchen l and then

19 there would be that swing door there.

20 Q Okay. I take it between the two swing doors is a wall?

21 A Correct.

22 Q All right. And is it that swing door that/s sort of in

23 the middle l the one to the leftl that you saw the man

24 standing in?

25 A Yes.


117

1 looking for the bathroom or something l and he walked through

2 the wrong door l and he came out the other one

3 Q SOl if you went --

4 A -- you know l was trying to come out the other one.

5 Q Okay. I apologize. If you went through the swinging

6 door on the far right there -- all right?

7 A Yes.

8 Q And where would that take you?

Into the kitchen. 9 A

10 Q All right. And then l if you were going to be behind

11 the door l would you come through those other swing doors?

12 A 11m sorry. I don/t understand.

13 Q Yes. You/d come through the swing door on the right I

14 and that would lead you into the kitchen l correct?

15 A Correct.

16 Q And in order to come out behind the barl would you go

17 through that other swing door that/s to the left?

18 A You would have to walk through the kitchen l and then

19 there would be that swing door there.

20 Q Okay. I take it between the two swing doors is a wall?

21 A Correct.

22 Q All right. And is it that swing door that/s sort of in

23 the middle l the one to the leftl that you saw the man

24 standing in?

25 A Yes.


118

1 Q All right. Now, did you hear anybody say anything at

2 the time you noticed the man behind -- standing at the swing

3 door?

4 A Yes. I heard someone tell him that he was going the

5 wrong way.

6 Q Okay. Do you recall who that was?

7 A I believe it was Chris Slonaker.

8 Q Okay. And was the man standing at that swinging door

9 one of the three men that you saw walk in?

10 A

11 Q

Yes.

All right. Now, at what point did you see -- after

12 they walked in -- did you see the other two men?

13 A

14 Q

15 A

16 Q

As soon as I came in, I sawall three of them.

All right. As soon as they came in?

Correct.

All right. But then the man you see by the swing door

17 behind the bar, and somebody says, "Hey, you're coming in

18 the wrong way," and you believe that was Chris?

19 A

20 Q

Correct.

All right. And then what did the guy that was behind

21 the swing door -- or standing at the swing door then do, as

22 you recall?

23 A

24 Q

25 A

He walked back into the kitchen and back around.

Did he come through those other swing doors again?

Yes.


118

1 Q All right. Now, did you hear anybody say anything at

2 the time you noticed the man behind -- standing at the swing

3 door?

4 A Yes. I heard someone tell him that he was going the

5 wrong way.

6 Q Okay. Do you recall who that was?

7 A I believe it was Chris Slonaker.

8 Q Okay. And was the man standing at that swinging door

9 one of the three men that you saw walk in?

10 A

11 Q

Yes.

All right. Now, at what point did you see -- after

12 they walked in -- did you see the other two men?

13 A

14 Q

15 A

16 Q

As soon as I came in, I sawall three of them.

All right. As soon as they came in?

Correct.

All right. But then the man you see by the swing door

17 behind the bar, and somebody says, "Hey, you're coming in

18 the wrong way," and you believe that was Chris?

19 A

20 Q

Correct.

All right. And then what did the guy that was behind

21 the swing door -- or standing at the swing door then do, as

22 you recall?

23 A

24 Q

25 A

He walked back into the kitchen and back around.

Did he come through those other swing doors again?

Yes.


119

1 Q All right.

2 A And the other two were I think they were ordering

3 drinks at the bar, standing at the bar.

4 Q And can you describe for us what the demeanor of the

5 three men was when you observed them come into the bar, and

6 the one fellow walk behind the bar, and the other two

7 walking up to the bar?

8 A I'm not sure if I understand the question.

9 Q How did they appear? Not what they were wearing, but

10 how were they acting?

11 A Very intoxicated. They were stumbling, slurring their

12 words.

13 Q And was this something that other people noticed, or

14 you don't know?

15

16


THE WITNESS: Well, yes, because, after a while,

17 they quit serving them.

18 THE COURT: Just a second. There's a

19 MR. ALEXANDER: No, I'll withdraw the question. I

20 think it's a fair objection.



23 Q And you and Diane and Chris certainly noticed the men,

24 correct?

25 A Yes.


119

1 Q All right.

2 A And the other two were I think they were ordering

3 drinks at the bar, standing at the bar.

4 Q And can you describe for us what the demeanor of the

5 three men was when you observed them come into the bar, and

6 the one fellow walk behind the bar, and the other two

7 walking up to the bar?

8 A I'm not sure if I understand the question.

9 Q How did they appear? Not what they were wearing, but

10 how were they acting?

11 A Very intoxicated. They were stumbling, slurring their

12 words.

13 Q And was this something that other people noticed, or

14 you don't know?

15

16


THE WITNESS: Well, yes, because, after a while,

17 they quit serving them.

18 THE COURT: Just a second. There's a

19 MR. ALEXANDER: No, I'll withdraw the question. I

20 think it's a fair objection.



23 Q And you and Diane and Chris certainly noticed the men,

24 correct?

25 A Yes.


1

2

3


MR. ALEXANDER: Now--


4 BY MR. ALEXANDER:

120

5 Q At any time, did any or all of the three men approach

6 you, Chris, and Diane?

7 A Yes.

8 Q On how many occasions did they do that, if you recall?

9 A I would say two, and one of the -- there was two of

10 them that first approached us, and then, after we talked to

11 them, then the one left, and then the other guy kept

12 coming - - the one guy came back a couple times.

13 Q Came up to

14 A Came up to where we were at a couple times.

15 Q All right. Were all three of the men loud - - well,

16 were any of the men loud and boisterous?

17 A Two of them were - - well, the one was really loud, kind

18 of rude and obnoxious, and one of them was really quiet, and

19 then the other one, he was, you know, talkative, but he

20 wasn't quite as bad as the first one that was talking to us.

21 Q And how close did they get to the three of you?

22 A Well, they were propped right I mean, right there at

23 the booth we were sitting at, because the one guy made a

24 rude comment about my friend Diane.

25 Q He made a rude comment?


1

2

3


MR. ALEXANDER: Now--


4 BY MR. ALEXANDER:

120

5 Q At any time, did any or all of the three men approach

6 you, Chris, and Diane?

7 A Yes.

8 Q On how many occasions did they do that, if you recall?

9 A I would say two, and one of the -- there was two of

10 them that first approached us, and then, after we talked to

11 them, then the one left, and then the other guy kept

12 coming - - the one guy came back a couple times.

13 Q Came up to

14 A Came up to where we were at a couple times.

15 Q All right. Were all three of the men loud - - well,

16 were any of the men loud and boisterous?

17 A Two of them were - - well, the one was really loud, kind

18 of rude and obnoxious, and one of them was really quiet, and

19 then the other one, he was, you know, talkative, but he

20 wasn't quite as bad as the first one that was talking to us.

21 Q And how close did they get to the three of you?

22 A Well, they were propped right I mean, right there at

23 the booth we were sitting at, because the one guy made a

24 rude comment about my friend Diane.

25 Q He made a rude comment?


121

1 A Yes.

2 Q Do you recall words to the effect of what he said?

3 A He made some kind of comment because she's very well

4 endowed, and, you know, he was just being rude and

5 obnoxious.

6 Q Was their language, again, slurring, as you described

7 it?

8 A Correct, yes.

9 Q All right. And I guess, in today's vernacular, were

10 they hitting on the three of you?

11 A Yes, that's -- yes.

12 Q And who in particular?

13 A The tallest one.

14 Q Of the men?

15 A Of the men, yes.

16 Q And which of the three of you were they hitting on?

17 A He was basically just trying to flirt with all of us.

18 Q As best you can recall, Ms. Wolfe, can you describe

19 what describe the men, their size, and, if you recall,

20 what clothing they were wearing?

21 A I remember the tallest one, the one that was being the

22 most obnoxious, he had like a light tan or white, off-white,

23 shirt on, with jeans, and the other two had on one of

24 them had like tan coveralls, like, that zipped up, but he

25 had them kind of like zipped down and thrown over, you know,


121

1 A Yes.

2 Q Do you recall words to the effect of what he said?

3 A He made some kind of comment because she's very well

4 endowed, and, you know, he was just being rude and

5 obnoxious.

6 Q Was their language, again, slurring, as you described

7 it?

8 A Correct, yes.

9 Q All right. And I guess, in today's vernacular, were

10 they hitting on the three of you?

11 A Yes, that's -- yes.

12 Q And who in particular?

13 A The tallest one.

14 Q Of the men?

15 A Of the men, yes.

16 Q And which of the three of you were they hitting on?

17 A He was basically just trying to flirt with all of us.

18 Q As best you can recall, Ms. Wolfe, can you describe

19 what describe the men, their size, and, if you recall,

20 what clothing they were wearing?

21 A I remember the tallest one, the one that was being the

22 most obnoxious, he had like a light tan or white, off-white,

23 shirt on, with jeans, and the other two had on one of

24 them had like tan coveralls, like, that zipped up, but he

25 had them kind of like zipped down and thrown over, you know,


122

1 like all down his waist.

2 Q So the top part was thrown down, hanging down below his

3 waist?

4 A Yes, just like folded over, you know, unzipped and

5 taken off the arms, and then folded over.

6 Q Okay. And let's go to the third person for a moment.

7 A He in specific was more quiet. I'm really, you know,

8 not exactly positive, but I believe he had coveralls, too.

9 But I'm really not sure, because he was pretty quiet and

10 standoffish.

11 Q Very well. Now, was there anything about their hair or

12 the like that you noticed?

13 A They had short hair. One of them had a little bit

14 longer hair, but two of them had really short hair.

15 Q Do you know if anyone of them had any writing on the

16 shirt that he was wearing?

17 A I don't recall.

18 Q You don't recall. All right. Well, I've got to ask

19 you, did you happen to see what kind of shoes or boots or

20 whatever they were wearing?

21 A Yes, definitely tennis shoes, because back then I

22 was I wouldn't look at you twice if you didn't wear

23 cowboy boots.

24 Q

25 A

You're a big cowboy boot fan?

You bet.


122

1 like all down his waist.

2 Q So the top part was thrown down, hanging down below his

3 waist?

4 A Yes, just like folded over, you know, unzipped and

5 taken off the arms, and then folded over.

6 Q Okay. And let's go to the third person for a moment.

7 A He in specific was more quiet. I'm really, you know,

8 not exactly positive, but I believe he had coveralls, too.

9 But I'm really not sure, because he was pretty quiet and

10 standoffish.

11 Q Very well. Now, was there anything about their hair or

12 the like that you noticed?

13 A They had short hair. One of them had a little bit

14 longer hair, but two of them had really short hair.

15 Q Do you know if anyone of them had any writing on the

16 shirt that he was wearing?

17 A I don't recall.

18 Q You don't recall. All right. Well, I've got to ask

19 you, did you happen to see what kind of shoes or boots or

20 whatever they were wearing?

21 A Yes, definitely tennis shoes, because back then I

22 was I wouldn't look at you twice if you didn't wear

23 cowboy boots.

24 Q

25 A

You're a big cowboy boot fan?

You bet.


123

1 Q Is that still the case now, when you're in Missouri?

2 A No. I think I'm a little more -- not as picky, I

3 guess.

4 Q Now, when the men were standing next to the three of

5 you, did you notice anything unusual about them?

6 A Well, I noticed that one of them had -- the tall one

7 with the tan shirt, he had bloodstains on his shirt, on his

8 T-shirt.

9 Q I see. And did he have blood -- did you say "spaced,"

10 or what did you say?

11 A

12 Q

13 A

14 Q

You know, like spots, you know.

Spotted on his T-shirt?

Yes, spots on his T-shirt.

Okay. And could you tell if he had blood on any other

15 part of his clothing?

16 A I believe he had a little bit here, like a little bit

17 on his face right here (witness indicating).

18 Q

19 A

Did any of you say anything to that gentleman?

Yes, Chris. She asked him what had happened to him,

20 and he told us that he had just gotten in a barroom brawl

21 somewhere else and he had gotten a bloody nose.

22 Q

23 A

I see.

But yet there was no blood -- when he said that, I even

24 looked up, and there was no blood crusted around his, you

25 know, nose or anything.


123

1 Q Is that still the case now, when you're in Missouri?

2 A No. I think I'm a little more -- not as picky, I

3 guess.

4 Q Now, when the men were standing next to the three of

5 you, did you notice anything unusual about them?

6 A Well, I noticed that one of them had -- the tall one

7 with the tan shirt, he had bloodstains on his shirt, on his

8 T-shirt.

9 Q I see. And did he have blood -- did you say "spaced,"

10 or what did you say?

11 A

12 Q

13 A

14 Q

You know, like spots, you know.

Spotted on his T-shirt?

Yes, spots on his T-shirt.

Okay. And could you tell if he had blood on any other

15 part of his clothing?

16 A I believe he had a little bit here, like a little bit

17 on his face right here (witness indicating).

18 Q

19 A

Did any of you say anything to that gentleman?

Yes, Chris. She asked him what had happened to him,

20 and he told us that he had just gotten in a barroom brawl

21 somewhere else and he had gotten a bloody nose.

22 Q

23 A

I see.

But yet there was no blood -- when he said that, I even

24 looked up, and there was no blood crusted around his, you

25 know, nose or anything.


124

1 Q Not crusted around the nostrils?

2 A Right, correct.

3 Q Where was the blood near his nose?

4 A Just like off to the side, on his mouth here (witness

5 indicating).

6 Q Off the side towards the mouth?

7 A Right.

8 Q All right. Did you notice any blood on clothing other

9 than on the shirt?

10 A No. I don't remember that, but I do remember the

11 shirt.

12 Q All right. Now, do you recall anybody, any of the

13 three of you, remarking about the blood that was on him?

14 A Yes. That's when he told us that he was in a barroom

15 brawl.

16 Q What did one of the -- well, which one of the three of

17 you made the remark?

I believe it was Chris. 18 A

19 Q And do you recall -- or, the best of your recollection,

20 the words, or words to the effect of what she said?

21 A "What the heck happened to you?"

22 Q Did she mention the word "blood" or point out "You've

23 got blood on you," or something like that?

24 A I think she asked him what he had allover him.

25 Q Okay. Now, Ms. Wolfe, did you yourself see any


124

1 Q Not crusted around the nostrils?

2 A Right, correct.

3 Q Where was the blood near his nose?

4 A Just like off to the side, on his mouth here (witness

5 indicating).

6 Q Off the side towards the mouth?

7 A Right.

8 Q All right. Did you notice any blood on clothing other

9 than on the shirt?

10 A No. I don't remember that, but I do remember the

11 shirt.

12 Q All right. Now, do you recall anybody, any of the

13 three of you, remarking about the blood that was on him?

14 A Yes. That's when he told us that he was in a barroom

15 brawl.

16 Q What did one of the -- well, which one of the three of

17 you made the remark?

I believe it was Chris. 18 A

19 Q And do you recall -- or, the best of your recollection,

20 the words, or words to the effect of what she said?

21 A "What the heck happened to you?"

22 Q Did she mention the word "blood" or point out "You've

23 got blood on you," or something like that?

24 A I think she asked him what he had allover him.

25 Q Okay. Now, Ms. Wolfe, did you yourself see any


1 enforcement persons inside of the bar?

2

3

4

5

6

7

MS. WILKENS: Objection, vague as to time.


MR. ALEXANDER: I'm sorry.

THE COURT: At any time that night?

MR. ALEXANDER: Yes, at any time.

THE WITNESS: Not that I remember, no.

8 BY MR. ALEXANDER:

9 Q You don't know. Okay. And I think earlier you may

125

10 have mentioned that you thought that you and Diane and Chris

11 had left maybe withdraw that. Did you observe the men

12 leaving the bar?

13 A

14 Q

15 A

16 Q

Yes, I saw them leave.

And what door did they go out of, as best you recall?

I believe it was the front door.

Okay. And do you know -- did you hear anybody ask them

17 to leave, or did anybody escort them out?

18 A They were told that they couldn't be no longer served,

19 and then they just kind of -- they didn't really, you know,

20 escort them out. They just kind of saw them out the door,

21 and they left.

22 Q NOw, do you recall who it was or, if not the name, the

23 position of the person who saw them out?

24 A It was either one of the waitresses or -- it was a

25 female.


1 enforcement persons inside of the bar?

2

3

4

5

6

7

MS. WILKENS: Objection, vague as to time.


MR. ALEXANDER: I'm sorry.

THE COURT: At any time that night?

MR. ALEXANDER: Yes, at any time.

THE WITNESS: Not that I remember, no.

8 BY MR. ALEXANDER:

9 Q You don't know. Okay. And I think earlier you may

125

10 have mentioned that you thought that you and Diane and Chris

11 had left maybe withdraw that. Did you observe the men

12 leaving the bar?

13 A

14 Q

15 A

16 Q

Yes, I saw them leave.

And what door did they go out of, as best you recall?

I believe it was the front door.

Okay. And do you know -- did you hear anybody ask them

17 to leave, or did anybody escort them out?

18 A They were told that they couldn't be no longer served,

19 and then they just kind of -- they didn't really, you know,

20 escort them out. They just kind of saw them out the door,

21 and they left.

22 Q NOw, do you recall who it was or, if not the name, the

23 position of the person who saw them out?

24 A It was either one of the waitresses or -- it was a

25 female.


126

1 Q All right. And do you recall, the female, she said

2 anything in connection with the men having to leave?

3 A Just that they were intoxicated and it was time to go,

4 that they couldn't be no longer served.

5 Q All right. Do you recall whether anybody had to

6 actually walk with them out the bar or keep an eye on them?


8 Q All right. Now, I believe you testified a little

9 earlier that you thought you and Chris and Diane then left

10 sometime after that, and I think you said 20 minutes to a

11 half-hour --

12 A Roughly.

13 Q and I just wanted to ask you if you've thought about

14 that.

15 A Yes. It's roughly. It was a short time after. I

16 remember it was a short time after they left.

17 Q All right. Now, Ms. Wolfe, how did you learn of the

18 crimes that were committed up at the Ryen home?

19 A The next day, one of our the neighbor -- well,

20 Diane, because she was staying next door at the time, came

21 over and told us to put on the news. It would have been --

22 Q

23 A

24 Q

25 A

Do you recall -- I'm sorry.

Pardon?

To put on the news and --

And to see, you know, if we had been watching the news,


126

1 Q All right. And do you recall, the female, she said

2 anything in connection with the men having to leave?

3 A Just that they were intoxicated and it was time to go,

4 that they couldn't be no longer served.

5 Q All right. Do you recall whether anybody had to

6 actually walk with them out the bar or keep an eye on them?


8 Q All right. Now, I believe you testified a little

9 earlier that you thought you and Chris and Diane then left

10 sometime after that, and I think you said 20 minutes to a

11 half-hour --

12 A Roughly.

13 Q and I just wanted to ask you if you've thought about

14 that.

15 A Yes. It's roughly. It was a short time after. I

16 remember it was a short time after they left.

17 Q All right. Now, Ms. Wolfe, how did you learn of the

18 crimes that were committed up at the Ryen home?

19 A The next day, one of our the neighbor -- well,

20 Diane, because she was staying next door at the time, came

21 over and told us to put on the news. It would have been --

22 Q

23 A

24 Q

25 A

Do you recall -- I'm sorry.

Pardon?

To put on the news and --

And to see, you know, if we had been watching the news,


127

1 and if we knew what was going on.

2 Q And do you recall what time of day that was?

3 A It was sometime in the afternoon.

4 Q All right. Now, the evening after you left the bar,

5 did you and Diane and Chris then go home?

6 A Yes.

7 Q All right. Was there anything unusual when you got

8 towards Chris' house and the farmhouse --

Well, I --

-- the farmhouse where you were staying?

9 A

10 Q

11 A Well, I went home to Chris' house, and, like, Diane was

12 next door, so she went home. And we noticed the dogs were

13 out, and we walked around the property and noticed that all

14 our gates were open. The gates were open.

15 Q

16 A

And where did you sleep that night?

I spent the night with Chris, because she was kind of

17 scared, and because it just was not normal to have all the

18 gates open like that, and the dogs running loose.

19 Q Ms. Wolfe, I'm almost -- you'll be glad to know

20 almost done. I think you referred to this earlier. You

21 were interviewed by some law enforcement person sometime

22 this year, correct?

23 A Correct.

24 Q All right. And can you tell me how that occurred?

25 A He called me. He contacted me, and just - - well,


127

1 and if we knew what was going on.

2 Q And do you recall what time of day that was?


4 Q All right. Now, the evening after you left the bar,

5 did you and Diane and Chris then go home?

6 A Yes.

7 Q All right. Was there anything unusual when you got

8 towards Chris' house and the farmhouse --

Well, I --

-- the farmhouse where you were staying?

9 A

10 Q

11 A Well, I went home to Chris' house, and, like, Diane was

12 next door, so she went home. And we noticed the dogs were

13 out, and we walked around the property and noticed that all

14 our gates were open. The gates were open.

15 Q

16 A

And where did you sleep that night?

I spent the night with Chris, because she was kind of

17 scared, and because it just was not normal to have all the

18 gates open like that, and the dogs running loose.

19 Q Ms. Wolfe, I'm almost -- you'll be glad to know

20 almost done. I think you referred to this earlier. You

21 were interviewed by some law enforcement person sometime

22 this year, correct?

23 A Correct.

24 Q All right. And can you tell me how that occurred?

25 A He called me. He contacted me, and just - - well,


128

1 first, I believe he even had the police come over, because I

2 still did not have a phone, and then I contacted him.

3 Q All right. And did you two meet, you and the police

4 officer?

5 A Yes, yes.

6 Q Was it a police officer or a detective?

7 A It was a detective.

8 Q A detective?

9 A A detective.

10 Q And did he tell you his name?

11 A It started with G. That's all - - I think - - I don't

12 remember.

13 Q Does Cavanaugh ring a bell?

14 A Yes. Yes, it does.

15 Q Is that the name, or something similar to that?

16 A Something similar to that, yes.

17 Q All right. And how long did he interview you?

18 A It lasted probably about an hour and a half, two hours

19 I was there.

20 Q And - -

21 A We met at the Morgan County Sheriff's Office.

22 Q And he tape-recorded that interview?

23 A Yes, he did.

24 Q Was the tape recorder on the whole time of the

25 interview, or did he put it on part of the way through the


128

1 first, I believe he even had the police come over, because I

2 still did not have a phone, and then I contacted him.

3 Q All right. And did you two meet, you and the police

4 officer?

5 A Yes, yes.

6 Q Was it a police officer or a detective?

7 A It was a detective.

8 Q A detective?

9 A A detective.

10 Q And did he tell you his name?

11 A It started with G. That's all - - I think - - I don't

12 remember.

13 Q Does Cavanaugh ring a bell?

14 A Yes. Yes, it does.

15 Q Is that the name, or something similar to that?

16 A Something similar to that, yes.

17 Q All right. And how long did he interview you?

18 A It lasted probably about an hour and a half, two hours

19 I was there.

20 Q And - -

21 A We met at the Morgan County Sheriff's Office.

22 Q And he tape-recorded that interview?

23 A Yes, he did.

24 Q Was the tape recorder on the whole time of the

25 interview, or did he put it on part of the way through the


1 interview?

2 A Pretty much the whole way, because we didn't -- after

3 it ran -- you know, after he shut it off, we didn't really

4 talk much about the case after that.

5 Q Okay. During the course of that interview, did this

6 Detective Cavanaugh or whatever his name was tell you that

7 what you had told him was vastly different than what Chris

8 Slonaker had said?

9 A Yes, he did.

10 Q And what did you say in response to him?

11 A I told him that that's what I've already -- you know,

12 what I had just told him is what I remember to the best of

13 my knowledge, and, you know, that's what I remember.

129

14 Q All right. And did you have -- during this hour-and-a-

15 half, two-hour period of time, did you have any sense of

16 have any feeling or reaction to his questioning of you?

17 A I felt a few times he tried to trick me into -- like,

18 he would say something, "Well, that's not what your friend

19 said," you know, to see if I can -- kind of trying to get me

20 to change what I was telling him. Yes, I felt that a few

21 times.

22 Q

23 A

24

And did you stick by what you recalled?

Yes, yes.

MR. ALEXANDER: All right. I believe that's all

25 the questions I have, your Honor.


1 interview?

2 A Pretty much the whole way, because we didn't -- after

3 it ran -- you know, after he shut it off, we didn't really

4 talk much about the case after that.

5 Q Okay. During the course of that interview, did this

6 Detective Cavanaugh or whatever his name was tell you that

7 what you had told him was vastly different than what Chris

8 Slonaker had said?

9 A Yes, he did.

10 Q And what did you say in response to him?

11 A I told him that that's what I've already -- you know,

12 what I had just told him is what I remember to the best of

13 my knowledge, and, you know, that's what I remember.

129

14 Q All right. And did you have -- during this hour-and-a-

15 half, two-hour period of time, did you have any sense of

16 have any feeling or reaction to his questioning of you?

17 A I felt a few times he tried to trick me into -- like,

18 he would say something, "Well, that's not what your friend

19 said," you know, to see if I can -- kind of trying to get me

20 to change what I was telling him. Yes, I felt that a few

21 times.

22 Q

23 A

24

And did you stick by what you recalled?

Yes, yes.

MR. ALEXANDER: All right. I believe that's all

25 the questions I have, your Honor.


1

2

3

4

5



Thank you very much, Ms. Wolfe.


CROSS EXAMINATION

6 BY MS. WILKENS:

130

7 Q Now, Ms. Wolfe, I believe you indicated that you signed

8 your declaration on the date that's indicated on the

9 signature page. Is that correct?

10 A

11 Q

12 A

13 Q

14 A

15 Q

16 A

17 Q

That's correct.

And did you write that declaration?

No.

Okay. Do you know who wrote it for you?

I believe her name was Sandra Cook.

Does Sandra Koch sound familiar?

Koch. Koch, yes. That's it.

Okay. And you spoke to Ms. Koch over the telephone.

18 Is that correct?

19 A

20 Q

Yes.

Okay. And you indicated that you didn't have a phone

21 at that time, so the sheriff came out to the house?

22 A

23 Q

24 out?

25 A

Right.

Do you remember what time of night the sheriff came

It was about 10:30 in the evening.


1

2

3

4

5



Thank you very much, Ms. Wolfe.


CROSS EXAMINATION

6 BY MS. WILKENS:

130

7 Q Now, Ms. Wolfe, I believe you indicated that you signed

8 your declaration on the date that's indicated on the

9 signature page. Is that correct?

10 A

11 Q

12 A

13 Q

14 A

15 Q

16 A

17 Q

That's correct.

And did you write that declaration?

No.

Okay. Do you know who wrote it for you?

I believe her name was Sandra Cook.

Does Sandra Koch sound familiar?

Koch. Koch, yes. That's it.

Okay. And you spoke to Ms. Koch over the telephone.

18 Is that correct?

19 A

20 Q

Yes.

Okay. And you indicated that you didn't have a phone

21 at that time, so the sheriff came out to the house?

22 A

23 Q

24 out?

25 A

Right.

Do you remember what time of night the sheriff came

It was about 10:30 in the evening.


131

1 Q Okay. Is that rather unusual, to have someone come out

2 to the house that time of night?

3 A Well, there's a time -- you know, there's a two-hour

4 time difference. So they would -- California time, they

5 would have been there at 8:30.

6 Q Well, but, as far as your being in your home, ma'am,

7 was it 10:30 at night?

8 A Yes.

9 Q Okay. Do you normally get visitors at 10:30 at night?

10 A

11 Q

12 A

13 Q

Not the sheriff, no.

Okay. So that stuck out in your mind?

Yes.

Okay. And what did the sheriff tell you when he came

14 out to the house?

15 A That Sandra Koch needed to contact me. It had

16 something to do with the Kevin Cooper case.

17 Q And did the sheriff explain to you who Sandra Koch was?

18 A No.

19 Q All right.

20 A Not that I remember, no.

21 Q When the sheriff referenced the Kevin Cooper case, did

22 you know what the sheriff was talking about?

23 A

24 Q

I'm sorry?

When the sheriff told you that some lady needed to talk

25 to you about the Kevin Cooper case, did you know what the


131

1 Q Okay. Is that rather unusual, to have someone come out

2 to the house that time of night?

3 A Well, there's a time -- you know, there's a two-hour

4 time difference. So they would -- California time, they

5 would have been there at 8:30.

6 Q Well, but, as far as your being in your home, ma'am,

7 was it 10:30 at night?

8 A Yes.

9 Q Okay. Do you normally get visitors at 10:30 at night?

10 A

11 Q

12 A

13 Q

Not the sheriff, no.

Okay. So that stuck out in your mind?

Yes.

Okay. And what did the sheriff tell you when he came

14 out to the house?

15 A That Sandra Koch needed to contact me. It had

16 something to do with the Kevin Cooper case.

17 Q And did the sheriff explain to you who Sandra Koch was?

18 A No.

19 Q All right.

20 A Not that I remember, no.

21 Q When the sheriff referenced the Kevin Cooper case, did

22 you know what the sheriff was talking about?

23 A

24 Q

I'm sorry?

When the sheriff told you that some lady needed to talk

25 to you about the Kevin Cooper case, did you know what the


132

1 Kevin Cooper case was?

2 A Yes, yes.

3 Q Okay. And did you know because you recalled the events

4 shortly after the murder?

5 A I really had no idea what was going on. It was just

6 out of the blue.

7 Q But you knew who Kevin Cooper was?

8 A Yes. I mean, I didn't know him, but yes, I was aware

9 of it.

10 Q And were you aware that Kevin Cooper had been convicted

11 of the murders?

12 A

13 Q

14 A

15 Q

16 A

17 Q

Yes, I was aware of that.

All right. And sentenced to death?

Yes.

Okay. Did you know that his execution was scheduled?

No. The sheriff told me that, that night.

Okay. And when the Kevin Cooper case was mentioned,

18 did you have any idea as to why anyone would want to talk to

19 you?

20 A Well, I didn't, until he said it also had something to

21 do with Chris Slonaker, and then I knew that -- because --

22 yes, then I knew.

23 Q Okay. And you went with the sheriff, and you spoke to

24 Ms. Koch by telephone?

25 A No. I just went over to my neighbor's house and used


132

1 Kevin Cooper case was?

2 A Yes, yes.

3 Q Okay. And did you know because you recalled the events

4 shortly after the murder?

5 A I really had no idea what was going on. It was just

6 out of the blue.

7 Q But you knew who Kevin Cooper was?

8 A Yes. I mean, I didn't know him, but yes, I was aware

9 of it.

10 Q And were you aware that Kevin Cooper had been convicted

11 of the murders?

12 A

13 Q

14 A

15 Q

16 A

17 Q

Yes, I was aware of that.

All right. And sentenced to death?

Yes.

Okay. Did you know that his execution was scheduled?

No. The sheriff told me that, that night.

Okay. And when the Kevin Cooper case was mentioned,

18 did you have any idea as to why anyone would want to talk to

19 you?

20 A Well, I didn't, until he said it also had something to

21 do with Chris Slonaker, and then I knew that -- because --

22 yes, then I knew.

23 Q Okay. And you went with the sheriff, and you spoke to

24 Ms. Koch by telephone?

25 A No. I just went over to my neighbor's house and used


1 the phone.

2 Q Okay. And did you call Ms. Koch right away?

3 A Yes, I did.

4 Q All right. And how long did you speak to her?

5 A Roughly maybe an hour.

6 Q And how did you receive the declaration?

7 A She asked if I would give her a statement over the

8 phone, and I was giving her the statement. She was typing

9 it up.

10 Q

11 A

All right. She was typing as you spoke?

Right, yes. You could hear the keyboard in the

12 background.

13 Q All right. And you could hear the keyboard the whole

14 time you were talking?

15 A Yes.

16 Q Okay. And when were you presented with the

17 declaration?

18 A

19 time.

Early the next morning, about 6:30 in the morning, my

Okay.

Yes.

133

20 Q

21 A

22 Q And so you got off the phone with Ms. Koch about 11:30

23 in the evening, your time?

Right, yes. 24 A

25 Q Okay. And then somebody was out at the house at 6:30


1 the phone.

2 Q Okay. And did you call Ms. Koch right away?

3 A Yes, I did.

4 Q All right. And how long did you speak to her?

5 A Roughly maybe an hour.

6 Q And how did you receive the declaration?

7 A She asked if I would give her a statement over the

8 phone, and I was giving her the statement. She was typing

9 it up.

10 Q

11 A

All right. She was typing as you spoke?

Right, yes. You could hear the keyboard in the

12 background.

13 Q All right. And you could hear the keyboard the whole

14 time you were talking?

15 A Yes.

16 Q Okay. And when were you presented with the

17 declaration?

18 A

19 time.

Early the next morning, about 6:30 in the morning, my

Okay.

Yes.

133

20 Q

21 A

22 Q And so you got off the phone with Ms. Koch about 11:30

23 in the evening, your time?

Right, yes. 24 A

25 Q Okay. And then somebody was out at the house at 6:30


134

1 the next morning?

2 A 6:30, 7:00 o'clock, yes.

3 Q Okay. And what time do you normally get up?

4 A Well, I was sleeping when he did come over, but I

5 usually get up around 7:00, 7:30.

6 Q All right. And who came out to your house?

7 A I'm not sure of his name, but it was somebody that she

8 had known from Jeff City, Jefferson City, that drove down

9 and gave it to me.

10 Q Okay. And did you read the declaration before you

11 signed it?

12 A

13 Q

Yes, I did.

Okay. Now, did you write anything in handwriting on

14 your declaration?

15 A

16 Q

17 A

18

Yes. I corrected some things. I don't recall.

Do you have your declaration in front of you?

No. Is that here?

MS. WILKENS: Counsel, I believe -- has that been

19 marked? You didn't show her her declaration? No. Okay.

20 MR. ALEXANDER: It's part of the record, but I

21 didn't show it to her.

THE COURT: Pardon me? 22

23 MR. ALEXANDER: I said it was part of the record,

24 but I did not show it to her just now.

25 Do you need copies, Counsel? I have copies.


134

1 the next morning?

2 A 6:30, 7:00 o'clock, yes.

3 Q Okay. And what time do you normally get up?

4 A Well, I was sleeping when he did come over, but I

5 usually get up around 7:00, 7:30.

6 Q All right. And who came out to your house?

7 A I'm not sure of his name, but it was somebody that she

8 had known from Jeff City, Jefferson City, that drove down

9 and gave it to me.

10 Q Okay. And did you read the declaration before you

11 signed it?

12 A

13 Q

Yes, I did.

Okay. Now, did you write anything in handwriting on

14 your declaration?

15 A

16 Q

17 A

18

Yes. I corrected some things. I don't recall.

Do you have your declaration in front of you?

No. Is that here?

MS. WILKENS: Counsel, I believe -- has that been

19 marked? You didn't show her her declaration? No. Okay.

20 MR. ALEXANDER: It's part of the record, but I

21 didn't show it to her.

THE COURT: Pardon me? 22

23 MR. ALEXANDER: I said it was part of the record,

24 but I did not show it to her just now.

25 Do you need copies, Counsel? I have copies.


135

1 MS. WILKENS: No, it's fine. Thank you.

2 BY MS. WILKENS:

3 Q Now, Ms. Wolfe, a copy of your declaration has been

4 marked as Respondent's Exhibit zzz, and if you could turn to

5 the second page, and I note, at paragraph seven, there's

6 handwriting, and it reads:

7

8

9

10

11

12 A

13 Q

14 A

"I first heard from the lawyers in this

case Sunday night, February 8, 2004, at

10:30 p.m. Central Standard Time."

Did you write that, ma'am?


Yes, I did.

And were you asked to write that?

Well, he wanted me to look it over, and then he said

15 that they didn't put that in, they didn't add that in. So I

16 went ahead and put it in, and then initialed it.

17 Q Okay. And it was executed on February 9th, 2004. So

18 that would be the following morning that you signed it?

19 A Correct.

20 Q And I don't note any other corrections. Is that

21 accurate?

22 A

23 Q

Yes. That was the only one that I wrote, yes. Yes.

Okay. Now, when you spoke to Ms. Koch, did they tell

24 you what they wanted to discuss with you?

25 A Yes. She just wanted, you know, what I remember, you


135

1 MS. WILKENS: No, it's fine. Thank you.

2 BY MS. WILKENS:

3 Q Now, Ms. Wolfe, a copy of your declaration has been

4 marked as Respondent's Exhibit zzz, and if you could turn to

5 the second page, and I note, at paragraph seven, there's

6 handwriting, and it reads:

7

8

9

10

11

12 A

13 Q

14 A

"I first heard from the lawyers in this

case Sunday night, February 8, 2004, at

10:30 p.m. Central Standard Time."

Did you write that, ma'am?


Yes, I did.

And were you asked to write that?

Well, he wanted me to look it over, and then he said

15 that they didn't put that in, they didn't add that in. So I

16 went ahead and put it in, and then initialed it.

17 Q Okay. And it was executed on February 9th, 2004. So

18 that would be the following morning that you signed it?

19 A Correct.

20 Q And I don't note any other corrections. Is that

21 accurate?

22 A

23 Q

Yes. That was the only one that I wrote, yes. Yes.

Okay. Now, when you spoke to Ms. Koch, did they tell

24 you what they wanted to discuss with you?

25 A Yes. She just wanted, you know, what I remember, you


~,

136

1 know, recall of that night.

2 Q Okay. And did they tell you that Mr. Cooper's

3 execution was imminent?

4 A Yes. They said it was the following day, I believe is

5 what she said, and they wanted to try to stop it.

6 Q Okay. And did they tell you that they'd spoken to

7 Ms. Slonaker?

8 A Yes.

9 Q And did they tell you that they'd obtained a

10 declaration from her?

11 A Yes.

12 Q And did they tell you what the declaration said?

13 A No.

14 Q Did they tell you what Ms. Slonaker had said?

15 A No.

16 Q Did they tell you anything about the case?

17 A No. They wouldn't even tell me where Chris even lived

18 anymore, because it's been so long. They wouldn't tell me

19 anything.

20 Q Did you ask?

21 A Yes, I asked.

22 Q And what did they tell you?

23 A They told me that they didn't want me and Chris to

24 speak with each other at this time, that maybe sometime, you

25 know, they'll let us get back, you know, together, because


~,

136

1 know, recall of that night.

2 Q Okay. And did they tell you that Mr. Cooper's

3 execution was imminent?

4 A Yes. They said it was the following day, I believe is

5 what she said, and they wanted to try to stop it.

6 Q Okay. And did they tell you that they'd spoken to

7 Ms. Slonaker?

8 A Yes.

9 Q And did they tell you that they'd obtained a

10 declaration from her?

11 A Yes.

12 Q And did they tell you what the declaration said?

13 A No.

14 Q Did they tell you what Ms. Slonaker had said?

15 A No.

16 Q Did they tell you anything about the case?

17 A No. They wouldn't even tell me where Chris even lived

18 anymore, because it's been so long. They wouldn't tell me

19 anything.

20 Q Did you ask?

21 A Yes, I asked.

22 Q And what did they tell you?

23 A They told me that they didn't want me and Chris to

24 speak with each other at this time, that maybe sometime, you

25 know, they'll let us get back, you know, together, because


~

137

1 we haventt seen each other in so long.

2 Q Now t the gentleman that brought out the declaration t

3 how long was he at your home?

4 A It d say probably about 45 minutes or so.

5 Q Forty-five minutes?

6 A Yes t a half-hourt 45 minutest because I wanted to read

7 it first.

8 Q Okay. And your declaration is two pages?

9 A Yes. Well t I had just woken up. I still had to get --

10 you know t I wasntt dressed or anything. I meant I still

11 he stood out there for a while. I meant itts not like I

12 talked to him that whole time.

13 Q Okay. So most of the time you (sic) spent waiting for

14 you to get ready?

15 A

16 Q

Yes t right.

Okay. And after you were ready to talk to him t how

17 long did you speak to him?

18 A

19 Q

Probably just 20 t 25 minutest tops.

Okay. And did you have any conversation t or did you

20 just read your declaration?

21 A He just wanted me to read it and go over itt and t if

22 there was any corrections t to correct them.

23 Q Okay. And how long did it take you to read your

24 declaration?

25 A Just a few minutes.


~

137

1 we haventt seen each other in so long.

2 Q Now t the gentleman that brought out the declaration t

3 how long was he at your home?

4 A It d say probably about 45 minutes or so.

5 Q Forty-five minutes?

6 A Yes t a half-hourt 45 minutest because I wanted to read

7 it first.

8 Q Okay. And your declaration is two pages?

9 A Yes. Well t I had just woken up. I still had to get --

10 you know t I wasntt dressed or anything. I meant I still

11 he stood out there for a while. I meant itts not like I

12 talked to him that whole time.

13 Q Okay. So most of the time you (sic) spent waiting for

14 you to get ready?

15 A

16 Q

Yes t right.

Okay. And after you were ready to talk to him t how

17 long did you speak to him?

18 A

19 Q

Probably just 20 t 25 minutest tops.

Okay. And did you have any conversation t or did you

20 just read your declaration?

21 A He just wanted me to read it and go over itt and t if

22 there was any corrections t to correct them.

23 Q Okay. And how long did it take you to read your

24 declaration?

25 A Just a few minutes.


138

1 Q Okay. So did you have any conversation with him? I

2 meanl you spent 20 minutes with him. What were you talking

3 about?

4 A Talking about -- well l I was still asking more

5 information on l you know I what was going on l and he wasn/t

6 being very informative or anything.

7 Q Okay. Did you want to know what would be expected of

8 you?

9 A What it was going to go to. And I like I said l he

10 wasn/t very informative I and so I went ahead and just signed

11 itl and then he left.

12 Q Okay. And did you subsequently talk to Ms. Koch l after

13 she spoke to you on the phone the night of the 7th?

14 A I spoke to her once and said that he had come OUtl you

15 know l and I had signed itl and then I spoke to her one other

16 time after the detective contacted me. I spoke with her

17 I called her to find out if she knew -- you know I if she

18 knew who he wasl because I didn/t know.

19 Q

20 A

You wanted to make sure he was a detective?

Right I right. And then she called me one timel tOOl to

21 say that the press l you know l was on itl and that she just

22 warned me that the press wasl you know I on the story.

23 Q If you wanted to know whether the detective was really

24 a detective l did you think to call the San Bernardino

25 Sheriff/s Department?


138

1 Q Okay. So did you have any conversation with him? I

2 meanl you spent 20 minutes with him. What were you talking

3 about?

4 A Talking about -- well l I was still asking more

5 information on l you know I what was going on l and he wasn/t

6 being very informative or anything.

7 Q Okay. Did you want to know what would be expected of

8 you?

9 A What it was going to go to. And I like I said l he

10 wasn/t very informative I and so I went ahead and just signed

11 itl and then he left.

12 Q Okay. And did you subsequently talk to Ms. Koch l after

13 she spoke to you on the phone the night of the 7th?

14 A I spoke to her once and said that he had come OUtl you

15 know l and I had signed itl and then I spoke to her one other

16 time after the detective contacted me. I spoke with her

17 I called her to find out if she knew -- you know I if she

18 knew who he wasl because I didn/t know.

19 Q

20 A

You wanted to make sure he was a detective?

Right I right. And then she called me one timel tOOl to

21 say that the press l you know l was on itl and that she just

22 warned me that the press wasl you know I on the story.

23 Q If you wanted to know whether the detective was really

24 a detective l did you think to call the San Bernardino

25 Sheriff/s Department?


139

1 A I went through the Sheriff's Department after that.

2 Q Okay. But that was after you called Ms. Koch?

3 A After I called her, yes. Then I contacted them, and

4 they looked into it for me.

5 Q Okay. And your recollection is you spoke to the

6 detective for, I believe, two hours?

7 A Hour and a half, two hours.

8 Q Okay. In your notebook, there is an Exhibit YYY, in

9 the notebook right in front of you. If you could please

10 turn to that.

11 MS. WILKENS: Your Honor, the detective's

12 interview with Ms. Wolfe has been marked as YYY-l.


14 BY MS. WILKENS:

15 Q Now, if you could look at the first page, line six. It

16 says, "April 8th, 2004," and the time is 1520. And then, if

17 you could look at page 33, line 22, the detective says, "The

18 time is 1610." Was the interview about 50 minutes?

19 A Well, according to that, it was, but it felt like it

20 was a lot longer.

21 Q Well, that doesn't surprise me. Okay. Now, do you

22 recognize the name Derek Pacifico? Does that ring a bell?

23 A

24 Q

25 A

Yes, that's the detective that came out.

Okay.

Yes. I couldn't remember his name for the life of me.


139

1 A I went through the Sheriff's Department after that.

2 Q Okay. But that was after you called Ms. Koch?

3 A After I called her, yes. Then I contacted them, and

4 they looked into it for me.

5 Q Okay. And your recollection is you spoke to the

6 detective for, I believe, two hours?

7 A Hour and a half, two hours.

8 Q Okay. In your notebook, there is an Exhibit YYY, in

9 the notebook right in front of you. If you could please

10 turn to that.

11 MS. WILKENS: Your Honor, the detective's

12 interview with Ms. Wolfe has been marked as YYY-l.


14 BY MS. WILKENS:

15 Q Now, if you could look at the first page, line six. It

16 says, "April 8th, 2004," and the time is 1520. And then, if

17 you could look at page 33, line 22, the detective says, "The

18 time is 1610." Was the interview about 50 minutes?

19 A Well, according to that, it was, but it felt like it

20 was a lot longer.

21 Q Well, that doesn't surprise me. Okay. Now, do you

22 recognize the name Derek Pacifico? Does that ring a bell?

23 A

24 Q

25 A

Yes, that's the detective that came out.

Okay.

Yes. I couldn't remember his name for the life of me.


140

1 Q Okay. And did Detective Pacifico tell you why he

2 wanted to talk to you before he traveled to Missouri?

3 A Yes, he did.

4 Q Okay. So he talked to you by phone - -

5 A Yes.

6 Q - - and told you he'd like to come out and talk to you?

7 A Yes.

8 Q Okay. And did Ms. Koch ask you to call her if any law

9 enforcement had contacted you?

Not that I recall. 10 A

11 Q Now, after speaking with Ms. Koch and providing a

12 declaration, were you ever contacted by any of Mr. Cooper's

13 attorneys?

14 A

15 Q

I'm sorry. Can you ask that again?

Were you ever contacted by any of Mr. Cooper's

16 attorneys?

17 A

18 Q

After

After you spoke with Ms. Koch and provided a

19 declaration.

20 A

21 Q

Well, yes, just the -- yes. Yes.

Okay. Approximately how long ago were you contacted by

22 Mr. Cooper's attorneys?

23 A

24 Q

25 A

It was about two weeks ago.

Okay. And who called you?

It was David Alexander.


140

1 Q Okay. And did Detective Pacifico tell you why he

2 wanted to talk to you before he traveled to Missouri?

3 A Yes, he did.

4 Q Okay. So he talked to you by phone - -

5 A Yes.

6 Q - - and told you he'd like to come out and talk to you?

7 A Yes.

8 Q Okay. And did Ms. Koch ask you to call her if any law

9 enforcement had contacted you?

Not that I recall. 10 A

11 Q Now, after speaking with Ms. Koch and providing a

12 declaration, were you ever contacted by any of Mr. Cooper's

13 attorneys?

14 A

15 Q

I'm sorry. Can you ask that again?

Were you ever contacted by any of Mr. Cooper's

16 attorneys?

17 A

18 Q

After

After you spoke with Ms. Koch and provided a

19 declaration.

20 A

21 Q

Well, yes, just the -- yes. Yes.

Okay. Approximately how long ago were you contacted by

22 Mr. Cooper's attorneys?

23 A

24 Q

25 A

It was about two weeks ago.

Okay. And who called you?

It was David Alexander.


141

1 Q Okay. And what did you and Mr. Alexander discuss?

2 A Discussing about the declaration that I had done, and

3 he was interested if I was willing to testify in court.

4 Q Okay. And did you keep a copy of your declaration?

5 A Yes. Yes, I did.

6 Q Okay. And when you talked to Mr. Alexander, did you

7 have a copy of your declaration?

8 A At the time, I did, yes.

9 Q Okay. And did you go over your declaration?

10 A Did I go over it again by myself, you mean?

11 Q No. Did you talk to Mr. Alexander about the contents

12 of your declaration?

13 A No.

14 Q No. Did he ask you any questions about what you

15 observed that night?

16 A

17 Q

18 A

No, not that I --

Okay. What did you talk about?

Let me think a minute. Like I said, he wanted to know

19 if I would be interested in coming out, that he felt that,

20 you know, what I had on my declaration might

21 could help.

you know,

22 Q

23 A

24 Q

So basically about logistics of coming out to testify?

Yes.

Okay. And were you contacted subsequently by anyone

25 representing Mr. Cooper, to your conversation with


141

1 Q Okay. And what did you and Mr. Alexander discuss?

2 A Discussing about the declaration that I had done, and

3 he was interested if I was willing to testify in court.

4 Q Okay. And did you keep a copy of your declaration?

5 A Yes. Yes, I did.

6 Q Okay. And when you talked to Mr. Alexander, did you

7 have a copy of your declaration?

8 A At the time, I did, yes.

9 Q Okay. And did you go over your declaration?

10 A Did I go over it again by myself, you mean?

11 Q No. Did you talk to Mr. Alexander about the contents

12 of your declaration?

13 A No.

14 Q No. Did he ask you any questions about what you

15 observed that night?

16 A

17 Q

18 A

No, not that I --

Okay. What did you talk about?

Let me think a minute. Like I said, he wanted to know

19 if I would be interested in coming out, that he felt that,

20 you know, what I had on my declaration might

21 could help.

you know,

22 Q

23 A

24 Q

So basically about logistics of coming out to testify?

Yes.

Okay. And were you contacted subsequently by anyone

25 representing Mr. Cooper, to your conversation with


142

1 Mr. Alexander?

2 A I just spoke with him. I just kept speaking with him.

3 Q Okay. And was it about logistics, about your coming

4 out?

5 A Coming out, and my airfare -- well, the air flight and

6 all that other stuff.

7 Q Okay. And did you speak to Mr. Alexander today?

8 A Yes.

9 Q Okay. And did you talk about anything that you saw at

10 the bar that night?

11 A No. We talked sports.

12 Q Okay. And so you didn't have any discussions about

13 your declaration or your drawing or anything like that?

14 A Not until I got here.

15 Q Okay. When you got here today?

Right. 16 A

17 Q Okay. So, at the courthouse today, did you talk to

18 Mr. Alexander?

Yes, right. Yes, just lawyer --19 A

20 Q You mean when Mr. Alexander was here asking you

21 questions?

22 A Yes, yes.

23 Q Okay. So you haven't discussed the case at all away

24 from the stand?

25 A Not the case, no. No.


142

1 Mr. Alexander?

2 A I just spoke with him. I just kept speaking with him.

3 Q Okay. And was it about logistics, about your coming

4 out?

5 A Coming out, and my airfare -- well, the air flight and

6 all that other stuff.

7 Q Okay. And did you speak to Mr. Alexander today?

8 A Yes.

9 Q Okay. And did you talk about anything that you saw at

10 the bar that night?

11 A No. We talked sports.

12 Q Okay. And so you didn't have any discussions about

13 your declaration or your drawing or anything like that?

14 A Not until I got here.

15 Q Okay. When you got here today?

Right. 16 A

17 Q Okay. So, at the courthouse today, did you talk to

18 Mr. Alexander?

Yes, right. Yes, just lawyer --19 A

20 Q You mean when Mr. Alexander was here asking you

21 questions?

22 A Yes, yes.

23 Q Okay. So you haven't discussed the case at all away

24 from the stand?

25 A Not the case, no. No.


143

1 Q Okay. And he hasn't shown you any papers or asked you

2 any questions, didn't show you a --

3 A Just told me to get up there and tell the truth to the

4 best of my knowledge.

5 Q Okay. He didn't ask you about your drawing?

6 A Yes. He asked about my drawing when we were here.

7 Q But not when you were off the stand?

8 A No, no.

9 Q All right. How long have you been living in Missouri?

10 A

11 Q

Since '91.

Okay. And do you know where Ms. Slonaker was living

12 while you were living in Missouri?

13 A The first year I was there, I did, and then we lost

14 contact.

15 Q

16 A

17 Q

18 A

19 Q

20 A

21 Q

Okay. So you lost track of her in about '92?

Right.

Okay.

Yes.

Now, what year did you move to the Chino area?

Well, I lived -- probably when I was about 18, so in

So it would be about 1978?

22 A '78.

23 Q And I believe, at the time of the Ryen/Hughes murders,

24 in June of 19~3, you would have been 22 years old?

25 A Twenty-three.


143

1 Q Okay. And he hasn't shown you any papers or asked you

2 any questions, didn't show you a --

3 A Just told me to get up there and tell the truth to the

4 best of my knowledge.

5 Q Okay. He didn't ask you about your drawing?

6 A Yes. He asked about my drawing when we were here.

7 Q But not when you were off the stand?

8 A No, no.

9 Q All right. How long have you been living in Missouri?

10 A

11 Q

Since '91.

Okay. And do you know where Ms. Slonaker was living

12 while you were living in Missouri?

13 A The first year I was there, I did, and then we lost

14 contact.

15 Q

16 A

17 Q

18 A

19 Q

20 A

21 Q

Okay. So you lost track of her in about '92?

Right.

Okay.

Yes.

Now, what year did you move to the Chino area?

Well, I lived -- probably when I was about 18, so in

So it would be about 1978?

22 A '78.

23 Q And I believe, at the time of the Ryen/Hughes murders,

24 in June of 19~3, you would have been 22 years old?

25 A Twenty-three.


144

1 Q Well/ I think you/re cheating yourself there/ but close

2 enough.

3 A No/ I would -- no. Yes. A few months away from being

4 22 -- I mean/ 23.

5 Q Okay.

6 A Yes.

7 Q And you were a roommate of Ms. Slonaker at the time?

8 A For a while/ yes.

9 Q Okay. At the time of the murders/ were you actually

10 living in her home?

11 A

12 time.

13 Q

14 A

15 Q

16 A

17 Q

No. I was living in the farmhouse behind her at the

Okay.

Yes.

So you were no longer roommates?

Correct.

Okay. And you were renting the farmhouse from someone

18 other than Ms. Slonaker/ correct?

19 A

20 Q

21 A

22 Q

Correct/ yes.

Okay. But was it on the same property?

No. It was the property behind her.

Okay. And how long did you remain in Chino after the

23 Ryen/Hughes murders?

24 A Probably until about -- I don/t know -- anywhere

25 between /96/ /97/ around in there/ and then I just moved to


144

1 Q Well/ I think you/re cheating yourself there/ but close

2 enough.

3 A No/ I would -- no. Yes. A few months away from being

4 22 -- I mean/ 23.

5 Q Okay.

6 A Yes.

7 Q And you were a roommate of Ms. Slonaker at the time?

8 A For a while/ yes.

9 Q Okay. At the time of the murders/ were you actually

10 living in her home?

11 A

12 time.

13 Q

14 A

15 Q

16 A

17 Q

No. I was living in the farmhouse behind her at the

Okay.

Yes.

So you were no longer roommates?

Correct.

Okay. And you were renting the farmhouse from someone

18 other than Ms. Slonaker/ correct?

19 A

20 Q

21 A

22 Q

Correct/ yes.

Okay. But was it on the same property?

No. It was the property behind her.

Okay. And how long did you remain in Chino after the

23 Ryen/Hughes murders?

24 A Probably until about -- I don/t know -- anywhere

25 between /96/ /97/ around in there/ and then I just moved to


145

1 Ontario after that, which is a couple miles away.

2 Q Do you mean ' 86, ma'am, 1986?

3 A Did I say - - yes, right.

4 Q Okay.

5 A '86, '87, around in there.

6 Q Okay. So about three or four years?

7 A Yes, yes.

8 Q Okay. And if you could turn to, in the white notebook

9 in front of you and actually I think it's open to it.

10 It's RRR-I. It's a map of the Chino area.

11 A

12 Q

13 A

14 Q

15 Do

16 A

17 Q

18 A

19 Q

Yes.

Do you see that?

It's right here.

And I believe

you see that?

In blue ink?

Yes.

Yes, I see it.

there's a circle in blue ink on the map.

Okay. And does that circle -- does that go around

20 where you were living at the time of the Ryen/Hughes

21 murders?

22 A

23 Q

Yes, it is.

Okay. And you lived on -- what was the name of the

24 street, again?

25 A I lived off of -- well, I think it was Eucalyptus that


145

1 Ontario after that, which is a couple miles away.

2 Q Do you mean ' 86, ma'am, 1986?

3 A Did I say - - yes, right.

4 Q Okay.

5 A '86, '87, around in there.

6 Q Okay. So about three or four years?

7 A Yes, yes.

8 Q Okay. And if you could turn to, in the white notebook

9 in front of you and actually I think it's open to it.

10 It's RRR-I. It's a map of the Chino area.

11 A

12 Q

13 A

14 Q

15 Do

16 A

17 Q

18 A

19 Q

Yes.

Do you see that?

It's right here.

And I believe

you see that?

In blue ink?

Yes.

Yes, I see it.

there's a circle in blue ink on the map.

Okay. And does that circle -- does that go around

20 where you were living at the time of the Ryen/Hughes

21 murders?

22 A

23 Q

Yes, it is.

Okay. And you lived on -- what was the name of the

24 street, again?

25 A I lived off of -- well, I think it was Eucalyptus that


146

1 I lived off, and Chris lived off of Sandbar.

2 Q Okay. So you weren't living off of Sandbar at the

3 time?

4 A No. It was just like right around the corner.

5 Q Okay.

6 A It was the next street over, I mean, the street

7 Q Now, you actually lived on Eucalyptus, then, or was it

8 a different street off of Eucalyptus?

9 A

10 Q

11 A

No. The farmhouse was right on Eucalyptus.

Okay. But it backed up to Sandbar?

No. Chris' house was on Sandbar, and then this was

12 Eucalyptus (witness indicating) , and then you had to go out

13 and around to get to my house.

14 Q Well, how far away from Ms. Slonaker's house were you?

15 A Maybe a little bit longer than the courtroom, not far

16 at all.

17 Q Okay. And you were familiar with where the Ryens lived

18 prior to the murders?

19 A

20 Q

21 A

Yes.

Okay. And you knew that from

We were all horse people, and everybody, you know, was

22 interested in who's got the best breed or who trains the

23 best, and so we were all pretty much familiar with who lived

24 in the area.

25 Q And how far away was the Ryen home from where you were


146

1 I lived off, and Chris lived off of Sandbar.

2 Q Okay. So you weren't living off of Sandbar at the

3 time?

4 A No. It was just like right around the corner.

5 Q Okay.

6 A It was the next street over, I mean, the street

7 Q Now, you actually lived on Eucalyptus, then, or was it

8 a different street off of Eucalyptus?

9 A

10 Q

11 A

No. The farmhouse was right on Eucalyptus.

Okay. But it backed up to Sandbar?

No. Chris' house was on Sandbar, and then this was

12 Eucalyptus (witness indicating) , and then you had to go out

13 and around to get to my house.

14 Q Well, how far away from Ms. Slonaker's house were you?

15 A Maybe a little bit longer than the courtroom, not far

16 at all.

17 Q Okay. And you were familiar with where the Ryens lived

18 prior to the murders?

19 A

20 Q

21 A

Yes.

Okay. And you knew that from

We were all horse people, and everybody, you know, was

22 interested in who's got the best breed or who trains the

23 best, and so we were all pretty much familiar with who lived

24 in the area.

25 Q And how far away was the Ryen home from where you were


('

147

1 living?

2 A As the bird flies, I'd say probably three-quarters of a

3 mile, tops.

4 Q And were you able to see the house from where you

5 lived?

6 A Yes.

7 Q And the morning after the murders, how did you found

8 out about it, when you were watching television?

9 A No. A neighbor came over, and she told us that she'd

10 been watching the news, and "Would you" -- you know, and she

11 explained to us what was going on, and then we looked you

12 know, then we could even look outside and see all the fire

13 trucks and everything.

14 MR. ALEXANDER: Excuse me, your Honor. I was

15 asleep at the wheel, but I'll interpose an objection. It

16 misstates her prior testimony in the question, that it was

17 the morning after.


19 BY MS. WILKENS:

20 Q Now, what time do you recall the neighbor coming over

21 to tell you to put on the news?


Okay. Early afternoon? 23 Q

24 A Maybe. I don't know. I would say early afternoon, not

25 late afternoon, but, you know, just


('

147

1 living?

2 A As the bird flies, I'd say probably three-quarters of a

3 mile, tops.

4 Q And were you able to see the house from where you

5 lived?

6 A Yes.

7 Q And the morning after the murders, how did you found

8 out about it, when you were watching television?

9 A No. A neighbor came over, and she told us that she'd

10 been watching the news, and "Would you" -- you know, and she

11 explained to us what was going on, and then we looked you

12 know, then we could even look outside and see all the fire

13 trucks and everything.

14 MR. ALEXANDER: Excuse me, your Honor. I was

15 asleep at the wheel, but I'll interpose an objection. It

16 misstates her prior testimony in the question, that it was

17 the morning after.


19 BY MS. WILKENS:

20 Q Now, what time do you recall the neighbor coming over

21 to tell you to put on the news?


Okay. Early afternoon? 23 Q

24 A Maybe. I don't know. I would say early afternoon, not

25 late afternoon, but, you know, just


~

148

1 Q Okay. And that's how you found out? You didn't find

2 out first by looking outside and seeing activity?

3 A Correct.

4 Q Okay. Now, you testified that you and Christine spoke

5 about the murders for several years after the actual

6 murders. Is that correct?

7 A That's correct.

8 Q And did people in Chino talk about the murders?

9 A For quite a while.

10 Q Okay. And you were aware that Kevin Cooper had been

11 arrested. Is that correct?

12 A

13 Q

Yes.

Okay. And you were aware that Kevin Cooper went to

14 trial for the crimes. Is that correct?

15 A

16 Q

17 A

18 Q

19 A

That's correct.

And were you aware that he had been convicted?

Yes.

And were you aware that he had been sentenced to death?

That one I wasn't sure of until I was told later, you

20 know, until --

21 Q All right. And how were you aware of these events?

22 Was it from the media?

23 A For the first few years. You know, I didn't really

24 follow the case, but you'd hear it every now and then, and,

25 like I said, I watched 48 Hours Investigates a few months


~

148

1 Q Okay. And that's how you found out? You didn't find

2 out first by looking outside and seeing activity?

3 A Correct.

4 Q Okay. Now, you testified that you and Christine spoke

5 about the murders for several years after the actual

6 murders. Is that correct?

7 A That's correct.

8 Q And did people in Chino talk about the murders?

9 A For quite a while.

10 Q Okay. And you were aware that Kevin Cooper had been

11 arrested. Is that correct?

12 A

13 Q

Yes.

Okay. And you were aware that Kevin Cooper went to

14 trial for the crimes. Is that correct?

15 A

16 Q

17 A

18 Q

19 A

That's correct.

And were you aware that he had been convicted?

Yes.

And were you aware that he had been sentenced to death?

That one I wasn't sure of until I was told later, you

20 know, until --

21 Q All right. And how were you aware of these events?

22 Was it from the media?

23 A For the first few years. You know, I didn't really

24 follow the case, but you'd hear it every now and then, and,

25 like I said, I watched 48 Hours Investigates a few months


1 back t and got a little -- they were talking about him and

2 the case.

3 Q Okay. And since you left Chino and the time you saw

4 the 48 Hours case t did you hear anything about the case?

149

5 A I would think about it every now and then t but not that

6 Itm aware oft no.

7 Q And when youtd think about itt what were you thinking

8 about it? I meant what were your thoughts?

9 MR. ALEXANDER: Objection. Itts compound t your

10 Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled. 11

12 THE WITNESS: I dontt know. Itts just something t

13 you know t something that happens close to your hornet and you

14 get -- you know t itts just something that pops in your mind t

15 when something that drastic t you know t happens.

16 BY MS. WILKENS:

17 Q Now t Diane was the sister of a neighbor. Is that

18 correct?

19 A Yes.

20 Q Okay. So was Diane a friend of yours or an

21 acquaintance?

22 A Wellt we were starting to get to know each other. I

23 meant she just recently had moved in with her sister. So I

24 really didntt know her a real long timet butt you know t wetd

25 go out once in a while.


1 back t and got a little -- they were talking about him and

2 the case.

3 Q Okay. And since you left Chino and the time you saw

4 the 48 Hours case t did you hear anything about the case?

149

5 A I would think about it every now and then t but not that

6 Itm aware oft no.

7 Q And when youtd think about itt what were you thinking

8 about it? I meant what were your thoughts?

9 MR. ALEXANDER: Objection. Itts compound t your

10 Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled. 11

12 THE WITNESS: I dontt know. Itts just something t

13 you know t something that happens close to your hornet and you

14 get -- you know t itts just something that pops in your mind t

15 when something that drastic t you know t happens.

16 BY MS. WILKENS:

17 Q Now t Diane was the sister of a neighbor. Is that

18 correct?

19 A Yes.

20 Q Okay. So was Diane a friend of yours or an

21 acquaintance?

22 A Wellt we were starting to get to know each other. I

23 meant she just recently had moved in with her sister. So I

24 really didntt know her a real long timet butt you know t wetd

25 go out once in a while.


-,

150

1 Q Okay. And after the murders, did you continue to see

2 Diane?

3 A She actually moved away shortly after that.

4 Q Okay. And did her sister continue to live there?

5 A Her sister still lived there. I didn't know her sister

6 as well.

7 Q Okay. Did you know her sister's name?

8 A I can't recall.

9 Q Okay. Did you know it at the time?

10 A At the time, I did.

11 Q Did you know Diane's last name at the time?

12 A At the time, but I can't - - it's been a long time,

13 know.

14 Q Now, you indicated that you would go to the Canyon

15 Corral about one or two times a month. Is that correct?

16 A

17 Q

That's correct.

And when did you first start going to the Canyon

18 Corral?

When I turned 21.

you

19 A

20 Q Okay. And so, since you were 21, you would go one to

21 two times a month. At the time of the murders, you were

22 almost 23, correct?

Correct. 23 A

24 Q Okay. Now, if you could turn in the notebook to

25 Exhibit JJJ-l, which is a photograph.


-,

150

1 Q Okay. And after the murders, did you continue to see

2 Diane?

3 A She actually moved away shortly after that.

4 Q Okay. And did her sister continue to live there?

5 A Her sister still lived there. I didn't know her sister

6 as well.

7 Q Okay. Did you know her sister's name?

8 A I can't recall.

9 Q Okay. Did you know it at the time?

10 A At the time, I did.

11 Q Did you know Diane's last name at the time?

12 A At the time, but I can't - - it's been a long time,

13 know.

14 Q Now, you indicated that you would go to the Canyon

15 Corral about one or two times a month. Is that correct?

16 A

17 Q

That's correct.

And when did you first start going to the Canyon

18 Corral?

When I turned 21.

you

19 A

20 Q Okay. And so, since you were 21, you would go one to

21 two times a month. At the time of the murders, you were

22 almost 23, correct?

Correct. 23 A

24 Q Okay. Now, if you could turn in the notebook to

25 Exhibit JJJ-l, which is a photograph.


151

1 A Kind of awkward, here.

2 Q That's triple J as in John, dash one. Do you recognize

3 that?

4 A Is this one or two? The one I'm looking at is the

5 Canyon Corral.

6 Q JJJ-1. Do you recognize the photo, ma'am?

7 A Yes.

8 Q And what is it?

9 A It's the Canyon Corral.

10 Q Okay. And if you could turn to JJJ-4, which is another

11 photograph.

12 A

13 Q

That is the parking lot, back parking.

Okay. Do you see the building over to the right,

14 behind the pickup truck --

15 A

16 Q

Uh-huh.

-- the blue pickup truck with a camper shell? Can you

17 see part of the bar building, off to the right?

18 A

19 Q

Yes.

Okay. Looking at that, are you able to tell me, in

20 that photo, where the back door is to the bar?

21 A Well, you can see it on the very edge, because there

22 was the one door that went from the kitchen and then there

23 was the other door.

24 Q Okay.

25 A It's hard to -- here, let me look again. I don't even


151

1 A Kind of awkward, here.

2 Q That's triple J as in John, dash one. Do you recognize

3 that?

4 A Is this one or two? The one I'm looking at is the

5 Canyon Corral.

6 Q JJJ-1. Do you recognize the photo, ma'am?

7 A Yes.

8 Q And what is it?

9 A It's the Canyon Corral.

10 Q Okay. And if you could turn to JJJ-4, which is another

11 photograph.

12 A

13 Q

That is the parking lot, back parking.

Okay. Do you see the building over to the right,

14 behind the pickup truck --

15 A

16 Q

Uh-huh.

-- the blue pickup truck with a camper shell? Can you

17 see part of the bar building, off to the right?

18 A

19 Q

Yes.

Okay. Looking at that, are you able to tell me, in

20 that photo, where the back door is to the bar?

21 A Well, you can see it on the very edge, because there

22 was the one door that went from the kitchen and then there

23 was the other door.

24 Q Okay.

25 A It's hard to -- here, let me look again. I don't even


152

1 think it/s in the picture l actually.

2 Q Do you see the lightl the light fixture on the side of

3 the building?

4 A Yes.

5 Q Okay. The door to the right of the light fixture as

6 you/re looking at the photo l what is that door to?

7 A It looks like it would be the back door l but 11m really

8 not sure. I wish you had the whole picture. It/s hard to

9 tell. Let me see.

10 Q Now l was there a back door --

11 MR. ALEXANDER: Excuse mel your Honor. I believe

12 the witness was still in the middle of an answer.

13 THE COURT: Were you finished?

14 THE WITNESS: NO I not yet. I would be willing to

15 say that that is the back door going into the bar.

16 BY MS. WILKENS:

17 Q Okay. Now l when we say "the back door going into the

18 bar/" that would be the one that the patrons could use when

19 they/d come from the parking lot?

20 A That is correct I butl to be honest with you l I thought

21 it was further this way (witness indicating).

22 THE COURT: Further which waYI to the right on the

23 picture or to the left?

24 THE WITNESS: That it would like it/s not even

25 showing in the picture l that it would be further this


152

1 think it/s in the picture l actually.

2 Q Do you see the lightl the light fixture on the side of

3 the building?

4 A Yes.

5 Q Okay. The door to the right of the light fixture as

6 you/re looking at the photo l what is that door to?

7 A It looks like it would be the back door l but 11m really

8 not sure. I wish you had the whole picture. It/s hard to

9 tell. Let me see.

10 Q Now l was there a back door --

11 MR. ALEXANDER: Excuse mel your Honor. I believe

12 the witness was still in the middle of an answer.

13 THE COURT: Were you finished?

14 THE WITNESS: NO I not yet. I would be willing to

15 say that that is the back door going into the bar.

16 BY MS. WILKENS:

17 Q Okay. Now l when we say "the back door going into the

18 bar/" that would be the one that the patrons could use when

19 they/d come from the parking lot?

20 A That is correct I butl to be honest with you l I thought

21 it was further this way (witness indicating).

22 THE COURT: Further which waYI to the right on the

23 picture or to the left?

24 THE WITNESS: That it would like it/s not even

25 showing in the picture l that it would be further this


1 way (witness indicating)

2 BY MS. WILKENS:

3 Q Okay. Well, it wouldn't be in the picture, but would

4 it be missing from the picture on the right or from the

5 picture from the left? It would be to the right of the

6 light fixture, is that what you're saying, further down to

7 the right?

8 A Further down. Further down.

9 Q Okay. Farther away to the right?

That's how I remember it.

153

10 A

11 Q Okay. Now, do you see a door to the left of the light

12 fixture?

13 A That looks more like a window.

14 Q Okay. So you don't know that to be a door?

15 A No. I thought it was a window.

16 Q Okay. Now, you state in your declaration that the men

17 who came into the bar, they "stuck out like sore thumbs"?

18 A Correct.

19 Q Okay. Were those your words?

20 A Yes.

21 Q Okay. And that was because you didn't recognize them?

22 A Right. I mean, we had never seen them before, that,

23 and they were really intoxicated. I mean, we could tell

24 that right when they walked in the door.

25 Q Okay. Well, what caught your attention, the


1 way (witness indicating)

2 BY MS. WILKENS:

3 Q Okay. Well, it wouldn't be in the picture, but would

4 it be missing from the picture on the right or from the

5 picture from the left? It would be to the right of the

6 light fixture, is that what you're saying, further down to

7 the right?

8 A Further down. Further down.

9 Q Okay. Farther away to the right?

That's how I remember it.

153

10 A

11 Q Okay. Now, do you see a door to the left of the light

12 fixture?

13 A That looks more like a window.

14 Q Okay. So you don't know that to be a door?

15 A No. I thought it was a window.

16 Q Okay. Now, you state in your declaration that the men

17 who came into the bar, they "stuck out like sore thumbs"?

18 A Correct.

19 Q Okay. Were those your words?

20 A Yes.

21 Q Okay. And that was because you didn't recognize them?

22 A Right. I mean, we had never seen them before, that,

23 and they were really intoxicated. I mean, we could tell

24 that right when they walked in the door.

25 Q Okay. Well, what caught your attention, the


154

1 intoxication?

2 A Well, we were approached by them.

3 Q Okay. What did you notice first when they came into

4 the bar?

5 A That they were not familiar faces.

6 Q Okay. And then when did you notice they were

7 intoxicated?

8 A When they were trying to talk to us.

9 Q Okay. When they came over to you?

10 A Yes, and their words were slurry.

11 Q Okay. Now, all three men, you watched them come in the

12 front door together?

13 A Yes.

14 Q Is that true? Okay.

To the best of my knowledge. 15 A

16 Q When you later saw one of the men over by the bar, that

17 was after you saw the three men come in together through the

18 front door. Is that correct?

19 A

20 Q

Do you mean at the bar?

Well, you had mentioned that one of the men had gone

21 over and was over by the bar, and I believe on the wrong

22 side.

23 A Yes, yes. The other two -- when that happened, the

24 other two were still -- I don't know if they were ordering

25 drinks or just standing by the bar, but they were all in the


154

1 intoxication?

2 A Well, we were approached by them.

3 Q Okay. What did you notice first when they came into

4 the bar?

5 A That they were not familiar faces.

6 Q Okay. And then when did you notice they were

7 intoxicated?

8 A When they were trying to talk to us.

9 Q Okay. When they came over to you?

10 A Yes, and their words were slurry.

11 Q Okay. Now, all three men, you watched them come in the

12 front door together?

13 A Yes.

14 Q Is that true? Okay.

To the best of my knowledge. 15 A

16 Q When you later saw one of the men over by the bar, that

17 was after you saw the three men come in together through the

18 front door. Is that correct?

19 A

20 Q

Do you mean at the bar?

Well, you had mentioned that one of the men had gone

21 over and was over by the bar, and I believe on the wrong

22 side.

23 A Yes, yes. The other two -- when that happened, the

24 other two were still -- I don't know if they were ordering

25 drinks or just standing by the bar, but they were all in the


155

1 same area.

2 Q Okay. They were in the areat but only one was where he

3 wasntt supposed to be?

4 A Only one that I -- yes. Only one went to the back t

5 wrong door.

6 Q Okay. Now t you stated in your declaration that you

7 arrived fairly late for the purpose of having dinner. Is

8 that correct?

9 A Well t not the purpose. We just went later t before the

10 kitchen closed t basically.

11 Q

12 A

13 Q

14 A

Well t you planned on having dinner?

Yes. We had dinner.

Okay. And what time does the kitchen close?

I believe it was like 10:00 otclock on weekdays and

15 11:00 on weekends t something like that.

16 Q Okay. And when the men came into the bart had you

17 already gotten your food?

18 A

19 Q

I think we were still waiting on our food.

Now t do you know whether or not Ms. Slonaker had a

20 drink that night?

21 A No. She wasntt a drinker.

22 Q Okay. So she didntt have a drink.

23 A No.

24 Q And did you have a - -

25 A She never drank.


155

1 same area.

2 Q Okay. They were in the areat but only one was where he

3 wasntt supposed to be?

4 A Only one that I -- yes. Only one went to the back t

5 wrong door.

6 Q Okay. Now t you stated in your declaration that you

7 arrived fairly late for the purpose of having dinner. Is

8 that correct?

9 A Well t not the purpose. We just went later t before the

10 kitchen closed t basically.

11 Q

12 A

13 Q

14 A

Well t you planned on having dinner?

Yes. We had dinner.

Okay. And what time does the kitchen close?

I believe it was like 10:00 otclock on weekdays and

15 11:00 on weekends t something like that.

16 Q Okay. And when the men came into the bart had you

17 already gotten your food?

18 A

19 Q

I think we were still waiting on our food.

Now t do you know whether or not Ms. Slonaker had a

20 drink that night?

21 A No. She wasntt a drinker.

22 Q Okay. So she didntt have a drink.

23 A No.

24 Q And did you have a - -

25 A She never drank.


156

1 Q Okay. You never saw her drink?

2 A I dontt think SOt no.

3 Q Okay. How about Diane? Was Diane drinking?

4 A I think she had a drink or two t yes.

5 Q Okay. And did you have any drink?

6 A I usually would have one.

7 Q Okay. And do you remember what you all ate that night?

8 A Yes. I always ordered the same thing. I always

9 ordered salad and baked potato with extra sour cream and

10 chives t always ordered it.

11 Q Okay. And do you remember what Ms. Slonaker had that

12 night?

13 A Probably the same thing t because we usually -- we

14 always had the same thing.

15 Q

16 A

17 Q

Okay.

You know t we just always ate that.

Now t you testified that you left the bar about 20 or 30

18 minutes after you saw the men leave the bar. Is that right?

19 A

20 Q

21 A

RoughlYt yes.

Okay. And you left sometime around --

It was after we ate t sat and chatted for a while. So I

22 would say -- I dontt know if it would be around 11:00 or t

23 you know t just roughly around there.

24 Q Okay. And when you would go to the bart was it

25 generally on a Saturday night?


156

1 Q Okay. You never saw her drink?

2 A I dontt think SOt no.

3 Q Okay. How about Diane? Was Diane drinking?

4 A I think she had a drink or two t yes.

5 Q Okay. And did you have any drink?

6 A I usually would have one.

7 Q Okay. And do you remember what you all ate that night?

8 A Yes. I always ordered the same thing. I always

9 ordered salad and baked potato with extra sour cream and

10 chives t always ordered it.

11 Q Okay. And do you remember what Ms. Slonaker had that

12 night?

13 A Probably the same thing t because we usually -- we

14 always had the same thing.

15 Q

16 A

17 Q

Okay.

You know t we just always ate that.

Now t you testified that you left the bar about 20 or 30

18 minutes after you saw the men leave the bar. Is that right?

19 A

20 Q

21 A

RoughlYt yes.

Okay. And you left sometime around --

It was after we ate t sat and chatted for a while. So I

22 would say -- I dontt know if it would be around 11:00 or t

23 you know t just roughly around there.

24 Q Okay. And when you would go to the bart was it

25 generally on a Saturday night?


157

1 A Yes. We would go there for lunch, too.

2 Q Okay. Did they have a band that played at the bar?

3 A Yes.

4 Q Okay. And the night that you were there, the night of

5 the murders, was the band playing that night?

6 A Yes. That's -- yes.

7 Q Okay. And did you arrive before the band started

8 playing?

9 A I think the band was already playing, but they were on

10 break when we got there.

11 Q Okay.

Yes. 12 A

13 Q Now, you said that the men approached you at the booth.

14 Did all three men come over to the booth the first time?

15 A Well, two of them did, but the one -- I mean, it was

16 really the one that only actually was talking to us.

17 Q Okay. But two men came over to the booth and one spoke

18 to you?

19 A Right.

20 Q Okay. And then the men left, the two men left the

21 booth?

22 A Well, they walked to the bar and were ordering drinks,

23 and, you know, just moving around the same area, and

24 actually I believe, at one point, they even sat in the booth

25 behind us.


157

1 A Yes. We would go there for lunch, too.

2 Q Okay. Did they have a band that played at the bar?

3 A Yes.

4 Q Okay. And the night that you were there, the night of

5 the murders, was the band playing that night?

6 A Yes. That's -- yes.

7 Q Okay. And did you arrive before the band started

8 playing?

9 A I think the band was already playing, but they were on

10 break when we got there.

11 Q Okay.

Yes. 12 A

13 Q Now, you said that the men approached you at the booth.

14 Did all three men come over to the booth the first time?

15 A Well, two of them did, but the one -- I mean, it was

16 really the one that only actually was talking to us.

17 Q Okay. But two men came over to the booth and one spoke

18 to you?

19 A Right.

20 Q Okay. And then the men left, the two men left the

21 booth?

22 A Well, they walked to the bar and were ordering drinks,

23 and, you know, just moving around the same area, and

24 actually I believe, at one point, they even sat in the booth

25 behind us.


158

1 Q Okay. Now, the first man, the man that you indicated

2 was the one doing the talking when they came over the first

3 time, you said he subsequently returned to your booth?

4 A A couple times, and then we --

5 Q Okay.

6 A Yes.

7 Q Now, the first time when the two men were there, how

8 long were they there?

9 A

10 Q

I don't understand the question.

The two men, when they came over to your booth, and the

11 one was talking to you, how long were they at your booth?

12 A Not very long, because we kind of brushed them off.

13 Q Couple minutes?

14 A Few minutes.

15 Q Okay.

16 A Maybe five, four or five, not long.

17 Q Did either of the men touch anyone at your booth?

18 A Not that I recall. I know the one was making some rude

19 comments.

20 Q

21 A

That was the one doing the talking?

I'm not sure about anybody actually being touched by

22 one of them.

23 Q Okay. And when the one man came back to your booth,

24 did he touch anybody at your booth?

25 A Well, I know, if he did, I don't remember, but I


158

1 Q Okay. Now, the first man, the man that you indicated

2 was the one doing the talking when they came over the first

3 time, you said he subsequently returned to your booth?

4 A A couple times, and then we --

5 Q Okay.

6 A Yes.

7 Q Now, the first time when the two men were there, how

8 long were they there?

9 A

10 Q

I don't understand the question.

The two men, when they came over to your booth, and the

11 one was talking to you, how long were they at your booth?

12 A Not very long, because we kind of brushed them off.

13 Q Couple minutes?

14 A Few minutes.

15 Q Okay.

16 A Maybe five, four or five, not long.

17 Q Did either of the men touch anyone at your booth?

18 A Not that I recall. I know the one was making some rude

19 comments.

20 Q

21 A

That was the one doing the talking?

I'm not sure about anybody actually being touched by

22 one of them.

23 Q Okay. And when the one man came back to your booth,

24 did he touch anybody at your booth?

25 A Well, I know, if he did, I don't remember, but I


1 remember Chris had to get really rude with him to get him

2 away. So I/m really not sure/ but I know that Chris did

3 have to get rude with him to get him to leave/ get him to

4 leave us alone.

159

5 Q Now/ after this encounter at the bar with the men/ did

6 Chris have blood on her clothing or anything?

7 A Chris?

8 Q Yes. Was there blood smeared on her clothing or

9 anything?

10 A No.

11 Q Okay. And you said that the man was rude. Is that

12 correct?

Yes.

Okay.

We had -- yes.

13 A

14 Q

15 A

16 Q Did you talk to the bar manager or anyone employed by

17 the bar about their behavior?

18 A No/ because when Chris especially made it pointblank --

19 you know/ they left us alone after she told us -- you know/

20 after --

21 Q Do you remember how many times the one man came back to

22 your booth?

23 A I would say only maybe two/ maybe two -- not really/

24 because/ once he was told/ you know/ "Leave us alone/" he

25 did.


1 remember Chris had to get really rude with him to get him

2 away. So I/m really not sure/ but I know that Chris did

3 have to get rude with him to get him to leave/ get him to

4 leave us alone.

159

5 Q Now/ after this encounter at the bar with the men/ did

6 Chris have blood on her clothing or anything?

7 A Chris?

8 Q Yes. Was there blood smeared on her clothing or

9 anything?

10 A No.

11 Q Okay. And you said that the man was rude. Is that

12 correct?

Yes.

Okay.

We had -- yes.

13 A

14 Q

15 A

16 Q Did you talk to the bar manager or anyone employed by

17 the bar about their behavior?

18 A No/ because when Chris especially made it pointblank --

19 you know/ they left us alone after she told us -- you know/

20 after --

21 Q Do you remember how many times the one man came back to

22 your booth?

23 A I would say only maybe two/ maybe two -- not really/

24 because/ once he was told/ you know/ "Leave us alone/" he

25 did.


160

1 Q Now, when you were talking to Detective Pacifico, did

2 you describe the physical appearance of the three men to

3 him?

4 A Yes.

5 Q And did you think they were all about the same age?

6 A Roughly, yes.

7 Q Okay. And what was your estimate as to their age?

8 A Middle twenties, maybe.

9 Q Now, there's one that you have described as the one

10 that did the talking when two came over to your booth?

11 A

12 Q

13 A

Correct.

Could you please tell me what he looked like?

He had lighter-brown hair, short, lighter-brown hair,

14 kind of medium build. He was tall. He was the tallest one

15 of them all, I'd say around six, six-one.

16 Q

17 A

And his hair was brown?

You know, like blondish -- you know, blond but not --

18 blondish brown, sandy blond or whatever.

19 Q

20 A

21 Q

22 A

Sandy blond?

Yes. Somewhere -- yes.

Okay. And do you recall what he was wearing?

He was wearing a light-colored T-shirt, either off-

23 white or tan, and jeans and tennis shoes.

24 Q

25 A

Okay. And he was Caucasian?

Yes.


160

1 Q Now, when you were talking to Detective Pacifico, did

2 you describe the physical appearance of the three men to

3 him?

4 A Yes.

5 Q And did you think they were all about the same age?

6 A Roughly, yes.

7 Q Okay. And what was your estimate as to their age?

8 A Middle twenties, maybe.

9 Q Now, there's one that you have described as the one

10 that did the talking when two came over to your booth?

11 A

12 Q

13 A

Correct.

Could you please tell me what he looked like?

He had lighter-brown hair, short, lighter-brown hair,

14 kind of medium build. He was tall. He was the tallest one

15 of them all, I'd say around six, six-one.

16 Q

17 A

And his hair was brown?

You know, like blondish -- you know, blond but not --

18 blondish brown, sandy blond or whatever.

19 Q

20 A

21 Q

22 A

Sandy blond?

Yes. Somewhere -- yes.

Okay. And do you recall what he was wearing?

He was wearing a light-colored T-shirt, either off-

23 white or tan, and jeans and tennis shoes.

24 Q

25 A

Okay. And he was Caucasian?

Yes.


161

1 Q Okay. And the man that accompanied him to the booth

2 but did not speak, what did he look like?

3 A Pretty much the same, only he was a little shorter, I

4 guess a little stockier, a little shorter. He had the same

5 color hair.

6 Q Was the hairstyle the same?

7 A I think his hair was just a little shorter.

8 Q Okay. And do you recall what he was wearing?

9 A That's the one that I recalled having tan coveralls on,

10 with it zipped like down and off the shoulders, kind of

11 hanging.

12 Q Now, when he came into the bar, did you notice that he

13 had coveralls off the shoulders as he came into the bar,

14 when you first saw him?

15 A Not at first, no.

16 Q Okay. Now, the third man that didn't come over to your

17 booth, do you recall what he looked like?

18 A I didn't pay as much attention to him, because he was

19 real quiet and a little more -- yes. I just remember he had

20 darker hair than the other two, and maybe even a little

21 shorter than the like, the shortest one of them all.

22 Q Okay. Did you tell Detective Pacifico that one of the

23 three men may have been of Mexican descent?

24 A Yes. The quiet one, he looked because he had darker

25 hair and a little more of a -- that he could have had


161

1 Q Okay. And the man that accompanied him to the booth

2 but did not speak, what did he look like?

3 A Pretty much the same, only he was a little shorter, I

4 guess a little stockier, a little shorter. He had the same

5 color hair.

6 Q Was the hairstyle the same?

7 A I think his hair was just a little shorter.

8 Q Okay. And do you recall what he was wearing?

9 A That's the one that I recalled having tan coveralls on,

10 with it zipped like down and off the shoulders, kind of

11 hanging.

12 Q Now, when he came into the bar, did you notice that he

13 had coveralls off the shoulders as he came into the bar,

14 when you first saw him?

15 A Not at first, no.

16 Q Okay. Now, the third man that didn't come over to your

17 booth, do you recall what he looked like?

18 A I didn't pay as much attention to him, because he was

19 real quiet and a little more -- yes. I just remember he had

20 darker hair than the other two, and maybe even a little

21 shorter than the like, the shortest one of them all.

22 Q Okay. Did you tell Detective Pacifico that one of the

23 three men may have been of Mexican descent?

24 A Yes. The quiet one, he looked because he had darker

25 hair and a little more of a -- that he could have had


162

1 Mexican in him, but not -- you know, that he could have had

2 some in him.

3 Q Now, the gentleman that you saw behind the bar at some

4 point, away from his two companions, which of the three men

5 was that?

6 A

7 Q

The tallest one, the one with the jeans and T-shirt on.

Now, you watched the 48 Hours program about six months

8 ago. Is that correct?

9 A That's correct.

10 Q And there was nothing in it about the Canyon Corral

11 Bar. Is that correct?

12 A Absolutely nothing.

13 Q What did you think when there was no reference to the

14 bar?

15 A It kind of made me angry, in a way, and then I thought

16 maybe, you know, because -- to the best of my knowledge,

17 Chris had contacted the police and told them what we had

18 seen that night, and nobody had ever talked to us or

19 anything. And, you know, then their investigation went, and

20 it just kind of -- you know, I just kind of wished I would

21 have said more, I guess, you know, made a point to

22 Q Okay. Now, you never called the police after that

23 night. Is that correct?

24 A No, I didn't.

25 Q Okay. But for some reason, you believed that Chris


162

1 Mexican in him, but not -- you know, that he could have had

2 some in him.

3 Q Now, the gentleman that you saw behind the bar at some

4 point, away from his two companions, which of the three men

5 was that?

6 A

7 Q

The tallest one, the one with the jeans and T-shirt on.

Now, you watched the 48 Hours program about six months

8 ago. Is that correct?

9 A That's correct.

10 Q And there was nothing in it about the Canyon Corral

11 Bar. Is that correct?

12 A Absolutely nothing.

13 Q What did you think when there was no reference to the

14 bar?

15 A It kind of made me angry, in a way, and then I thought

16 maybe, you know, because -- to the best of my knowledge,

17 Chris had contacted the police and told them what we had

18 seen that night, and nobody had ever talked to us or

19 anything. And, you know, then their investigation went, and

20 it just kind of -- you know, I just kind of wished I would

21 have said more, I guess, you know, made a point to

22 Q Okay. Now, you never called the police after that


24 A No, I didn't.

25 Q Okay. But for some reason, you believed that Chris


163

1 did?

2 A Yes, I thought she did.

3 Q Why did you think that?

4 A Pardon?


6 A Because we had discussed it, that she was going to call

7 and tell them what we had seen that night.

8 Q Okay. And when did you have that discussion?

9 A I think the following day, the day or day after that it

10 happened, that it was discovered, the murders were

11 discovered.

12 Q Okay. So you thought it was something that the police

13 should know about?

14 A

15 Q

16 A

17 Q

Yes, I did.

Okay. And Chris was going to contact the police?

That's what I remember, yes.

Okay. And what was your understanding as to what she

18 was going to tell the police?

19 A To come talk to us for statements or whatever.

20 Q

21 A

22 Q

Okay. And it was because you saw these three men?

And it may just seem suspicious, a little suspicious.

Okay. And they were suspicious because?

23 A Well, because, one, the way they were acting. Nobody

24 had ever seen them before, and the one had the blood on his

25 shirt, and it just -- it was just all -- it just wasn't


163

1 did?

2 A Yes, I thought she did.


4 A Pardon?


6 A Because we had discussed it, that she was going to call

7 and tell them what we had seen that night.

8 Q Okay. And when did you have that discussion?

9 A I think the following day, the day or day after that it

10 happened, that it was discovered, the murders were

11 discovered.

12 Q Okay. So you thought it was something that the police

13 should know about?

14 A

15 Q

16 A

17 Q

Yes, I did.

Okay. And Chris was going to contact the police?

That's what I remember, yes.

Okay. And what was your understanding as to what she

18 was going to tell the police?

19 A To come talk to us for statements or whatever.

20 Q

21 A

22 Q

Okay. And it was because you saw these three men?

And it may just seem suspicious, a little suspicious.

Okay. And they were suspicious because?

23 A Well, because, one, the way they were acting. Nobody

24 had ever seen them before, and the one had the blood on his

25 shirt, and it just -- it was just all -- it just wasn't


164

1 right. There was something wrong.

2 Q Okay. Now, did you see any blood on the other two men?

3 A Not that I recall.

4 Q Okay. So no blood on their clothing?

5 A Not that I recall. Definitely the one, though.

6 Definitely the one.

7 Q Okay. And the man that you saw blood on his shirt, did

8 you see blood on his shoes?


10 Q Okay.

11 A I mean, actually, I saw mud on his shoes. I remember

12 seeing, you know, they were kind of muddy, like they were

13 walking through mud. But as far as it being mud or blood, I

14 at the time thought - - you know, I just assumed it was mud.

15 Q Okay. So you sawall three persons' tennis shoes, and

16 they had mud on them?

17 A Well, the one for sure, because he was the one that was

18 making -- you know, the tallest one, he was the one that was

19 making himself known the most.

20 Q

21 mud?

22 A

23 Q

24 A

25 Q

Okay. And so, his shoes, you saw what you thought was

That's it. Yes. They were dirty.

Okay. Did he have dirt on his shirt?

No, not that I'm aware of.

Dirt on his pants?


164

1 right. There was something wrong.

2 Q Okay. Now, did you see any blood on the other two men?


4 Q Okay. So no blood on their clothing?

5 A Not that I recall. Definitely the one, though.

6 Definitely the one.

7 Q Okay. And the man that you saw blood on his shirt, did

8 you see blood on his shoes?


10 Q Okay.

11 A I mean, actually, I saw mud on his shoes. I remember

12 seeing, you know, they were kind of muddy, like they were

13 walking through mud. But as far as it being mud or blood, I

14 at the time thought - - you know, I just assumed it was mud.

15 Q Okay. So you sawall three persons' tennis shoes, and

16 they had mud on them?

17 A Well, the one for sure, because he was the one that was

18 making -- you know, the tallest one, he was the one that was

19 making himself known the most.

20 Q

21 mud?

22 A

23 Q

24 A

25 Q

Okay. And so, his shoes, you saw what you thought was

That's it. Yes. They were dirty.

Okay. Did he have dirt on his shirt?

No, not that I'm aware of.

Dirt on his pants?


1 A Not that 11m aware ofl no.

2 Q Did you see blood on his pants?

3 A NO I not that 11m aware of.

4 Q Did you see blood on his person?

5 A I saw a little speck here (witness indicating).

6 Q Okay. So that would be

7 THE COURT: "Here" meaning

8 THE WITNESS: The mouth l by the lip.

9 BY MS. WILKENS:

10 Q Okay. So you saw a speck of blood on his upper lipi

11 below his nose?

12 A

13 Q

Correct.

Okay. And when you talked to Chris about the need to

14 call the police l did Chris describe for you what she

15 observed at the bar?

165

16 A WeIll we were both we both talked about I because we

17 both saw the same thing as far aS I you know I I remember. I

18 mean l the guy was right there l and he was making it a real

19 point to just -- you know l he was in our faces l basically.

20 Q Did you ever ask Chris why the police didn/t contact

21 you?

22 A We discussed it later l and she said she wasn/t sure l

23 and l you know I I didn/t -- you know I back then l I was

24 painfully shYI so I wasn/t one fori you know -- I don/t

25 know. I just thought something more would come UPI and


1 A Not that 11m aware ofl no.

2 Q Did you see blood on his pants?

3 A NO I not that 11m aware of.

4 Q Did you see blood on his person?

5 A I saw a little speck here (witness indicating).

6 Q Okay. So that would be

7 THE COURT: "Here" meaning

8 THE WITNESS: The mouth l by the lip.

9 BY MS. WILKENS:

10 Q Okay. So you saw a speck of blood on his upper lipi

11 below his nose?

12 A

13 Q

Correct.

Okay. And when you talked to Chris about the need to

14 call the police l did Chris describe for you what she

15 observed at the bar?

165

16 A WeIll we were both we both talked about I because we

17 both saw the same thing as far aS I you know I I remember. I

18 mean l the guy was right there l and he was making it a real

19 point to just -- you know l he was in our faces l basically.

20 Q Did you ever ask Chris why the police didn/t contact

21 you?

22 A We discussed it later l and she said she wasn/t sure l

23 and l you know I I didn/t -- you know I back then l I was

24 painfully shYI so I wasn/t one fori you know -- I don/t

25 know. I just thought something more would come UPI and


166

1 then, after the years went by, you know, I just -- I really

2 couldn't answer why, exactly.

3 Q But you did discuss with Chris the fact that you had

4 not been contacted by the police?

5 A Yes, at one point. Yes.

6 Q Okay. And how long after the murders did you have that

7 discussion, if you recall?

8 A Probably not too far after. You know, she was like

9 wondering, you know, what -- I am not really sure exactly

10 when, but it wasn't -- it was within a few months.

11 Q Okay. And did Chris ever tell you that she didn't call

12 the police?

13 A That she didn't call the police?

14 Q Right.

15 A No.

16 Q Okay.

17 A That's what I'm saying. I was under the assumption

18 that it was her -- that she did call. I mean, that's what I

19 thought we had discussed before.

20 Q Okay. So you made that assumption because she told you

21 she was going to call the police, correct?

22 A

23 Q

Yes.

Okay. And you continued under the assumption because

24 she never told you that she didn't call the police?

25 A Correct.


166

1 then, after the years went by, you know, I just -- I really

2 couldn't answer why, exactly.

3 Q But you did discuss with Chris the fact that you had

4 not been contacted by the police?

5 A Yes, at one point. Yes.

6 Q Okay. And how long after the murders did you have that

7 discussion, if you recall?

8 A Probably not too far after. You know, she was like

9 wondering, you know, what -- I am not really sure exactly

10 when, but it wasn't -- it was within a few months.

11 Q Okay. And did Chris ever tell you that she didn't call

12 the police?

13 A That she didn't call the police?

14 Q Right.

15 A No.

16 Q Okay.

17 A That's what I'm saying. I was under the assumption

18 that it was her -- that she did call. I mean, that's what I

19 thought we had discussed before.

20 Q Okay. So you made that assumption because she told you

21 she was going to call the police, correct?

22 A

23 Q

Yes.

Okay. And you continued under the assumption because

24 she never told you that she didn't call the police?

25 A Correct.


1 Q Okay. And so, sitting here today, it's your belief

2 that Ms. Slonaker called the police?

3 A That's what I thought, yes.

4 Q Now, after you watched the 48 Hours, did you think of

5 contacting anyone?

6 A Yes, I did, but I didn't. I didn't, but yes, I did.

7 Q Who did you think about contacting?

8 A I didn't know. I had no idea who to contact.

9 Q Now, you indicated to Detective Pacifico that you

10 didn't believe that the gentleman had been in a brawl. Is

11 that correct?

Yes, I did.

167

12 A

13 Q Okay. Have you ever been at the Canyon Corral Bar when

14 there's been a fight?

15 A Yes, I'm sure that -- yes, I've seen fights there

16 before, but nothing big, you know, nothing major, and then

17 they'd just get them out the door and they'd be done.

18 Q Okay. Well, why did you think that someone wouldn't

19 come into the bar after being in a bar fight?

20 A Well, I believed the story, you know, at the time, you

21 know. The only thing I noticed about it that didn't make

22 sense to me is he said he had a bloody nose, and there was a

23 little blood here (witness indicating), but there was -- you

24 know, he was so wasted, I wouldn't think -- I mean, there

25 was no blood crusted around the nose at all.


1 Q Okay. And so, sitting here today, it's your belief

2 that Ms. Slonaker called the police?

3 A That's what I thought, yes.

4 Q Now, after you watched the 48 Hours, did you think of

5 contacting anyone?

6 A Yes, I did, but I didn't. I didn't, but yes, I did.

7 Q Who did you think about contacting?

8 A I didn't know. I had no idea who to contact.

9 Q Now, you indicated to Detective Pacifico that you

10 didn't believe that the gentleman had been in a brawl. Is

11 that correct?

Yes, I did.

167

12 A

13 Q Okay. Have you ever been at the Canyon Corral Bar when

14 there's been a fight?

15 A Yes, I'm sure that -- yes, I've seen fights there

16 before, but nothing big, you know, nothing major, and then

17 they'd just get them out the door and they'd be done.

18 Q Okay. Well, why did you think that someone wouldn't

19 come into the bar after being in a bar fight?

20 A Well, I believed the story, you know, at the time, you

21 know. The only thing I noticed about it that didn't make

22 sense to me is he said he had a bloody nose, and there was a

23 little blood here (witness indicating), but there was -- you

24 know, he was so wasted, I wouldn't think -- I mean, there

25 was no blood crusted around the nose at all.


1 Q But you believed him that he's been in a brawl?

2 A At that time.

3 Q Okay.

4 A I was still kind of hesitant, but we just believed

5 just to get rid of him, and sent him on his way.

6 Q Okay. When did you decide that he probably wasn't

7 brawl?

8 A Actually, we talked about it that night, because I

9 said, "Did you notice that he didn't even have any, you

10 know, blood crusted around his nose or anything?"

168

him,

in a

11 Q All right. So, when you say "we," you're talking about

12 Ms. Slonaker?

13 A Yes. Chris and I, yes.

14 Q Okay. So, when you went back to the house, you

15 discussed these men?

16 A Yes. Yes, we did, because they really kind of gave us

17 the creeps, to be honest with you.

18 Q Now, when Mr. Cooper was on trial for the crimes, did

19 you ever think about calling his attorney and talking to him

20 about what you saw?

21 A

22 Q

No, I didn't.

Okay. Did you ever think about calling the police and

23 talking about what you saw?

24 A

25 Q

I didn't, no. No.

Now, was the community continuing to talk about the


1 Q But you believed him that he's been in a brawl?

2 A At that time.

3 Q Okay.

4 A I was still kind of hesitant, but we just believed

5 just to get rid of him, and sent him on his way.

6 Q Okay. When did you decide that he probably wasn't

7 brawl?

8 A Actually, we talked about it that night, because I

9 said, "Did you notice that he didn't even have any, you

10 know, blood crusted around his nose or anything?"

168

him,

in a

11 Q All right. So, when you say "we," you're talking about

12 Ms. Slonaker?

13 A Yes. Chris and I, yes.

14 Q Okay. So, when you went back to the house, you

15 discussed these men?

16 A Yes. Yes, we did, because they really kind of gave us

17 the creeps, to be honest with you.

18 Q Now, when Mr. Cooper was on trial for the crimes, did

19 you ever think about calling his attorney and talking to him

20 about what you saw?

21 A

22 Q

No, I didn't.

Okay. Did you ever think about calling the police and

23 talking about what you saw?

24 A

25 Q

I didn't, no. No.

Now, was the community continuing to talk about the


169

1 crimes?

2 A Yes, for a few years after that. Yes.

3 Q Okay. Other than your conversations with Ms. Slonaker,

4 did you tell anyone what you saw at the bar that night?

5 A Yes.

6 Q Who did you tell?

7 A Neighbors.

8 Q When?

9 A Just talking about it for, you know, a few months down

10 the line, and that, you know -- yes. I mean, yes, we talked

11 about it to different neighbors.

12 Q Okay. And when you talked to the neighbors, you told

13 them that you saw a man in the bar?

14 A Yes.

15 Q And he had blood on his shirt?

16 A Yes.

17 Q And he had blood on his upper lip?

18 A Yes.

19 Q How many people did you tell that to?

20 A I really couldn't tell you. Just all around -- you

21 know, just maybe go talk I couldn't answer that question

22 exactly, but yes, it was discussed for a while.

23 Q And did you keep going to the Canyon Corral Bar after

24 the murders?

25 A A few times, yes, we went down there.


169

1 crimes?

2 A Yes, for a few years after that. Yes.

3 Q Okay. Other than your conversations with Ms. Slonaker,

4 did you tell anyone what you saw at the bar that night?

5 A Yes.

6 Q Who did you tell?

7 A Neighbors.

8 Q When?

9 A Just talking about it for, you know, a few months down

10 the line, and that, you know -- yes. I mean, yes, we talked

11 about it to different neighbors.

12 Q Okay. And when you talked to the neighbors, you told

13 them that you saw a man in the bar?

14 A Yes.

15 Q And he had blood on his shirt?

16 A Yes.

17 Q And he had blood on his upper lip?

18 A Yes.

19 Q How many people did you tell that to?

20 A I really couldn't tell you. Just all around -- you

21 know, just maybe go talk I couldn't answer that question

22 exactly, but yes, it was discussed for a while.

23 Q And did you keep going to the Canyon Corral Bar after

24 the murders?

25 A A few times, yes, we went down there.


170

1 Q And when you would go into the Canyon Corral after the

2 murders, did you talk to people in the bar about what you

3 saw that night?

4 A Not very much, no.

5 Q When you'd go into the bar after the murders, were

6 people discussing the murders?

7 A Not to me, that I recall, because I didn't really know

8 a lot of people in there yet, because I was kind of a

9 newcomer. I didn't really know the -- you know, I didn't

10 know the little -- the people that worked there and all that

11 all that well. So, like I said, I was shy. I didn't really

12 talk to a whole lot of people.

13 Q So you didn't really consider yourself to be a regular

14 at the bar?

15 A Well, kind of. A newcomer, I guess you'd say. I mean,

16 like I said, I didn't -- Chris knew quite a few of the

17 people, but I really didn't really know them that well.

18 Q Can you recall who the bartender was the night of the

19 murders?

All I remember is it was a man. 20 A

21 Q Did you know who Shirley Killian (phonetic) was?

22 A I believe she was the manager of the Canyon Corral.

23 Q Now, you believe that the men were refused service that


25 A Yes.


170

1 Q And when you would go into the Canyon Corral after the

2 murders, did you talk to people in the bar about what you

3 saw that night?

4 A Not very much, no.

5 Q When you'd go into the bar after the murders, were

6 people discussing the murders?

7 A Not to me, that I recall, because I didn't really know

8 a lot of people in there yet, because I was kind of a

9 newcomer. I didn't really know the -- you know, I didn't

10 know the little -- the people that worked there and all that

11 all that well. So, like I said, I was shy. I didn't really

12 talk to a whole lot of people.

13 Q So you didn't really consider yourself to be a regular

14 at the bar?

15 A Well, kind of. A newcomer, I guess you'd say. I mean,

16 like I said, I didn't -- Chris knew quite a few of the

17 people, but I really didn't really know them that well.

18 Q Can you recall who the bartender was the night of the

19 murders?

All I remember is it was a man. 20 A

21 Q Did you know who Shirley Killian (phonetic) was?

22 A I believe she was the manager of the Canyon Corral.

23 Q Now, you believe that the men were refused service that


25 A Yes.


1 Q Okay. How many drinks did they have before they were

2 refused service?

3 A From what I remember, they were maybe given one, and

4 then, after that, they were -- yes. They weren't -- I can

5 recall one, maybe one, if that.

6 Q Okay. And how did you come to believe that they were

7 being refused service?

171

8 A Because I heard them say that they were too intoxicated

9 and they couldn't have any more. I mean, I heard it.

10 Q

11 A

You heard some bar employee tell them?

Yes. I believe it was the woman that told them they

12 couldn't be served anymore.

13 Q Okay. Was the woman a waitress?

14 A No, I believe it was the manager.

15 Q Okay. And that would be Shirley?

16 A Yes, yes.

17 Q Okay. And you heard her talking to them?

18 A Yes. I heard her say that, you know, "We can no longer

19 serve you."

20 Q Now, do you recall how long the three men were inside

21 the bar before they were refused service?

22 A Not too very long, maybe 20 minutes or so.

23 Q And after they were told they were no longer going to

24 be served, how long did it take them to leave the bar?

25 A Few minutes. I think one kind of hang (sic) out for a


1 Q Okay. How many drinks did they have before they were

2 refused service?

3 A From what I remember, they were maybe given one, and

4 then, after that, they were -- yes. They weren't -- I can

5 recall one, maybe one, if that.

6 Q Okay. And how did you come to believe that they were

7 being refused service?

171

8 A Because I heard them say that they were too intoxicated

9 and they couldn't have any more. I mean, I heard it.

10 Q

11 A

You heard some bar employee tell them?

Yes. I believe it was the woman that told them they

12 couldn't be served anymore.

13 Q Okay. Was the woman a waitress?

14 A No, I believe it was the manager.

15 Q Okay. And that would be Shirley?

16 A Yes, yes.

17 Q Okay. And you heard her talking to them?

18 A Yes. I heard her say that, you know, "We can no longer

19 serve you."

20 Q Now, do you recall how long the three men were inside

21 the bar before they were refused service?

22 A Not too very long, maybe 20 minutes or so.

23 Q And after they were told they were no longer going to

24 be served, how long did it take them to leave the bar?

25 A Few minutes. I think one kind of hang (sic) out for a


1 little while, and then the other two had to come back and

2 get him, and then they all walked back out.

3 Q Okay. And how did they leave the bar, through what

4 door?

5 A The front door, as I recall.

6 Q And how soon after they left did you leave?

7 A Fifteen, 20 minutes, maybe, 20 minutes.

8 Q Now, did you hear the waitress say why they weren't

9 going to be served?

10 A No. I just heard -- I think it was the manager. I

11 just heard her say that they can no longer be served, that

12 they were too intoxicated.

Okay. So you think it was --

172

13 Q

14 A And I don't really even remember her even telling them

15 that they had to leave, but they just were no longer going

16 to be served.

17 Q

18 A

19 Q

Okay. So there would be no more alcohol served?

Right.

Now, you said that a lady escorted them out of the bar.

20 In other words, she walked out along with them?

21 A I don't recall her walking out, but I remember she was

22 kind of like keeping an eye on them as they were walking

23 out.

24 Q

25 A

Okay.

That's what I remember.


1 little while, and then the other two had to come back and

2 get him, and then they all walked back out.

3 Q Okay. And how did they leave the bar, through what

4 door?

5 A The front door, as I recall.

6 Q And how soon after they left did you leave?

7 A Fifteen, 20 minutes, maybe, 20 minutes.

8 Q Now, did you hear the waitress say why they weren't

9 going to be served?

10 A No. I just heard -- I think it was the manager. I

11 just heard her say that they can no longer be served, that

12 they were too intoxicated.

Okay. So you think it was --

172

13 Q

14 A And I don't really even remember her even telling them

15 that they had to leave, but they just were no longer going

16 to be served.

17 Q

18 A

19 Q

Okay. So there would be no more alcohol served?

Right.

Now, you said that a lady escorted them out of the bar.

20 In other words, she walked out along with them?

21 A I don't recall her walking out, but I remember she was

22 kind of like keeping an eye on them as they were walking

23 out.

24 Q

25 A

Okay.

That's what I remember.


1 Q Now, was that a waitress?

2 A I think it -- no. It was the manager.

3 Q So that would be Shirley?

4 A Yes.

5 Q Okay. And your declaration, if I could invite your

6 attention to the second page, on paragraph five -- your

7 declaration states, in the last two sentences:

8

9

10

11

12

13

"A short time later, someone in charge

of the bar called the police, and the

two men were kicked out of the bar.

Although I remember that a police

officer did come to the bar, I cannot

remember if it was before or after the

14 strange men left."

15 Now, is it your recollection that the police were

16 involved?

173

17 A When I was thinking about it, when I did write this, I

18 was thinking about yes, that's what happened, but then,

19 actually, when that detective came out, I even had it -- I

20 even changed it. I said, "I don't really, really remember

21 that for sure, if the police came or not." I could not say

22 definite.

23 Q Okay. So, sitting there with Detective Pacifico, when

24 you were talking to him

25 A I had already marked it on the declaration, to show him


1 Q Now, was that a waitress?

2 A I think it -- no. It was the manager.

3 Q So that would be Shirley?

4 A Yes.

5 Q Okay. And your declaration, if I could invite your

6 attention to the second page, on paragraph five -- your

7 declaration states, in the last two sentences:

8

9

10

11

12

13

"A short time later, someone in charge

of the bar called the police, and the

two men were kicked out of the bar.

Although I remember that a police

officer did come to the bar, I cannot

remember if it was before or after the

14 strange men left."

15 Now, is it your recollection that the police were

16 involved?

173

17 A When I was thinking about it, when I did write this, I

18 was thinking about yes, that's what happened, but then,

19 actually, when that detective came out, I even had it -- I

20 even changed it. I said, "I don't really, really remember

21 that for sure, if the police came or not." I could not say

22 definite.

23 Q Okay. So, sitting there with Detective Pacifico, when

24 you were talking to him

25 A I had already marked it on the declaration, to show him


1 that I needed to -- that I dontt believe that thatts what

2 happened t that I wasntt really sure.

3 Q When you read over your declaration on February 9th t

4 you didntt notice that?

5 A Well t see t I noticed itt but the more -- you know t

6 youtre thinking 20 years t and then the more I got to

174

7 thinking about it and thinking about itt I got to thinking t

8 nOt I really cantt say for sure if I remember the police

9 being there or not. I meant itts just -- I meant I just was

10 trying to roll it all t the whole nightt around in my head t

11 and then I remembered that I really couldntt say for sure if

12 I saw police.

13 Q Okay. Now t when you spoke with Ms. Koch t did she ask

14 you if police came to the bar that night?

15 A No.

16 Q Did you tell the police came to the bar that night?

17 A Yes. I told her I believed that the police came to the

18 bar.

19 Q Okay. Why did you tell her that?

20 A Because thatts what I was thinking at - - I meant thatts

21 just what I was thinking t and then t the more I got to

22 thinking about itt I thought that maybe I got it confused

23 with a different night that we were there. So I wasntt

24 really sure. SOt if Itm not sure t Itm not going to -- I

25 just cantt say for sure t no. I dontt remember for sure.


1 that I needed to -- that I dontt believe that thatts what

2 happened t that I wasntt really sure.

3 Q When you read over your declaration on February 9th t

4 you didntt notice that?

5 A Well t see t I noticed itt but the more -- you know t

6 youtre thinking 20 years t and then the more I got to

174

7 thinking about it and thinking about itt I got to thinking t

8 nOt I really cantt say for sure if I remember the police

9 being there or not. I meant itts just -- I meant I just was

10 trying to roll it all t the whole nightt around in my head t

11 and then I remembered that I really couldntt say for sure if

12 I saw police.

13 Q Okay. Now t when you spoke with Ms. Koch t did she ask

14 you if police came to the bar that night?

15 A No.

16 Q Did you tell the police came to the bar that night?

17 A Yes. I told her I believed that the police came to the

18 bar.

19 Q Okay. Why did you tell her that?

20 A Because thatts what I was thinking at - - I meant thatts

21 just what I was thinking t and then t the more I got to

22 thinking about itt I thought that maybe I got it confused

23 with a different night that we were there. So I wasntt

24 really sure. SOt if Itm not sure t Itm not going to -- I

25 just cantt say for sure t no. I dontt remember for sure.


175

1 Q Okay. So you have no specific recollection of a police

2 officer coming into the bar that night?

3 A No.

4 Q Okay. It says that --

5 THE COURT: "No," wrong, or "No," yes? We've been

6 there before.

THE WITNESS: No--7

8 THE COURT: Do you recall any police coming to the

9 bar?

10 THE WITNESS: No, I do not recall.

11 BY MS. WILKENS:

12 Q Okay. And it says in your declaration that "The man in

13 charge of the bar called the police."

14 A I'm telling you, I believed I had two different nights

15 confused at another time, and that's why, the more I got to

16 thinking about, the more I thought, well, I think that was

17 two different nights. And, like I said, I cannot remember

18 for sure if that was all the same night, because, the more

19 got to thinking about it, I don't believe I saw the police

20 there. I think I had it confused with a totally different

21 night.

22 Q Okay. And have you been there on other evenings when

23 patrons have been asked to leave the bar?

I

24 A Yes. Yes, I've been there before, and then they've had

25 police come in, and they escort them out. Yes.


175

1 Q Okay. So you have no specific recollection of a police

2 officer coming into the bar that night?

3 A No.

4 Q Okay. It says that --

5 THE COURT: "No," wrong, or "No," yes? We've been

6 there before.

THE WITNESS: No--7

8 THE COURT: Do you recall any police coming to the

9 bar?

10 THE WITNESS: No, I do not recall.

11 BY MS. WILKENS:

12 Q Okay. And it says in your declaration that "The man in

13 charge of the bar called the police."

14 A I'm telling you, I believed I had two different nights

15 confused at another time, and that's why, the more I got to

16 thinking about, the more I thought, well, I think that was

17 two different nights. And, like I said, I cannot remember

18 for sure if that was all the same night, because, the more

19 got to thinking about it, I don't believe I saw the police

20 there. I think I had it confused with a totally different

21 night.

22 Q Okay. And have you been there on other evenings when

23 patrons have been asked to leave the bar?

I

24 A Yes. Yes, I've been there before, and then they've had

25 police come in, and they escort them out. Yes.


176

1 Q All right. So youtve been there where the police have

2 been called to assist someone in leaving the bar?

3 A Rightt because there was a fight.

4 Q Okay. And so youtve witnessed fights in the bar

5 before?

6 A I think just one or two. Like I said t I didntt go

7 there t reallYt often enough t but I had witnessed a fight or

8 two there t I think one physical fight and then a couplet you

9 know t little confrontations.

10 Q Well t sitting here todaYt do you have specific

11 recollection of having seen the three men that youtve

12 described to us on the night of the Ryen Hughes murders?

Can you ask that again? 13 A

14 Q Yes. Sitting here todaYt do you have a specific


16 described for the Court todaYt that you in fact saw them on

17 the night of the Ryen/Hughes murders?

18 A Yes. Itm positive about that t because t like I said t

19 they really bothered uS t and when we got back to her house/

20 the gates were unlocked t and we just kind of -- it just --

21 yes t I remember it was definitely that night.

22 Q Okay. And also because you discussed it amongst

23 yourselves when you got hornet correct?

24 A Rightt because the gates were open t and the guy -- they

25 just -- they really bothered uS t you know. They got


176

1 Q All right. So youtve been there where the police have

2 been called to assist someone in leaving the bar?

3 A Rightt because there was a fight.

4 Q Okay. And so youtve witnessed fights in the bar

5 before?

6 A I think just one or two. Like I said t I didntt go

7 there t reallYt often enough t but I had witnessed a fight or

8 two there t I think one physical fight and then a couplet you

9 know t little confrontations.

10 Q Well t sitting here todaYt do you have specific


12 described to us on the night of the Ryen Hughes murders?

Can you ask that again? 13 A

14 Q Yes. Sitting here todaYt do you have a specific


16 described for the Court todaYt that you in fact saw them on

17 the night of the Ryen/Hughes murders?

18 A Yes. Itm positive about that t because t like I said t

19 they really bothered uS t and when we got back to her house/

20 the gates were unlocked t and we just kind of -- it just --

21 yes t I remember it was definitely that night.

22 Q Okay. And also because you discussed it amongst

23 yourselves when you got hornet correct?

24 A Rightt because the gates were open t and the guy -- they

25 just -- they really bothered uS t you know. They got


177

1 really -- they really bothered us at the bar.

2 Q Now, the officer that you recall coming on another

3 occasion, how was he attired?

4 A Well, I'm not sure of the colors, but I know it was the

5 sheriffs that patrolled that area. I'm not sure of the

6 color of the uniforms, though.

7 Q So you can't describe the uniform, but you that

8 sheriffs --

9 A I think it was maybe beige. I think they were beige,

10 like, well, dark, you know, the brownish color.

11 Q Now, the drawing that you drew for Detective Pacifico,

12 you've indicated that the men came in the front door,

13 correct?

14 A

15 Q

16 A

17 Q

Yes.

And you've indicated the booth that you were seated at?

Yes.

Okay. And when the men came into the bar, did they

18 come directly over to your booth?

19 A No.

20 Q Okay. Where did they go when they first came in?

21 A To order.

22 Q Okay.

23 A Yes, to order, up to the bar.

24 Q Up to the bar, and ordered?

25 A Right, to order. Yes.


177

1 really -- they really bothered us at the bar.

2 Q Now, the officer that you recall coming on another

3 occasion, how was he attired?

4 A Well, I'm not sure of the colors, but I know it was the

5 sheriffs that patrolled that area. I'm not sure of the

6 color of the uniforms, though.

7 Q So you can't describe the uniform, but you that

8 sheriffs --

9 A I think it was maybe beige. I think they were beige,

10 like, well, dark, you know, the brownish color.

11 Q Now, the drawing that you drew for Detective Pacifico,

12 you've indicated that the men came in the front door,

13 correct?

14 A

15 Q

16 A

17 Q

Yes.

And you've indicated the booth that you were seated at?

Yes.

Okay. And when the men came into the bar, did they

18 come directly over to your booth?

19 A No.

20 Q Okay. Where did they go when they first came in?

21 A To order.

22 Q Okay.

23 A Yes, to order, up to the bar.

24 Q Up to the bar, and ordered?

25 A Right, to order. Yes.


178

1 Q Okay. And how long between the time they came in did

2 they come over to your booth?

3 A I think, as soon as the one guy got his first beer, he

4 came straight over to our booth. So it wasn't very long at

5 all.

6 Q And they had drinks in their hands when they were over

7 at your booth?

8 A Yes. I think they did one -- they had beer, beer

9 bottles.

10 Q Okay. And the two men that came over to your booth,

11 both of them had short haircuts?

12 A Yes.

13 Q Was that unusual for that area?

14 A No, no.

15 Q Okay. So you didn't think their haircuts were unusual?

16 A No. The haircuts, no.

17 Q The tennis shoes?

18 A No. They were just unfamiliar. I mean, I'd never seen

19 them before, and they were just -- they were obviously

20 stumbling. So, yes, they stood out, that and I'd never seen

21 them before.

22 MS. WILKENS: Okay. Your Honor, I have no further

23 questions.

24 THE COURT: Redirect?

25 II


178

1 Q Okay. And how long between the time they came in did

2 they come over to your booth?

3 A I think, as soon as the one guy got his first beer, he

4 came straight over to our booth. So it wasn't very long at

5 all.

6 Q And they had drinks in their hands when they were over

7 at your booth?

8 A Yes. I think they did one -- they had beer, beer

9 bottles.

10 Q Okay. And the two men that came over to your booth,

11 both of them had short haircuts?

12 A Yes.

13 Q Was that unusual for that area?

14 A No, no.

15 Q Okay. So you didn't think their haircuts were unusual?

16 A No. The haircuts, no.

17 Q The tennis shoes?

18 A No. They were just unfamiliar. I mean, I'd never seen

19 them before, and they were just -- they were obviously

20 stumbling. So, yes, they stood out, that and I'd never seen

21 them before.


23 questions.

24 THE COURT: Redirect?

25 II


1 REDIRECT EXAMINATION

2 BY MR. ALEXANDER:

3 Q Ms. Wolfe, you'll be glad to know, two very brief

4 questions.

5 A Okay.

6 Q When the detective came to see you in Missouri and

7 mentioned -- I believe you said he told you about Kevin

8 Cooper, mentioned the name when he came to see you?

9 A Yes.

10 Q All right. You had, just a few months before that, I

11 guess, seen the 48 Hour piece?

Approximately four months, yes.

179

12 A

13 Q So that the name was familiar to you, even based on the

14 48 Hour piece?

15 A

16 Q

It would have been familiar anyway. Yes.

NOw, when you and I talked about sports, Ms. Wolfe, did

17 you tell me you were a St. Louis Cardinal fan?

18 A You bet I am, and you're a Cubs fan.

19 MR. ALEXANDER: No further questions, your Honor.

20 THE COURT: Anything else?

21 MS. WILKENS: (No audible response. )

22 THE COURT: You may step down.

23 THE WITNESS: Okay.

24 (The witness was excused. )

25 THE COURT: Leave the admitted exhibits there.


1 REDIRECT EXAMINATION

2 BY MR. ALEXANDER:

3 Q Ms. Wolfe, you'll be glad to know, two very brief

4 questions.

5 A Okay.

6 Q When the detective came to see you in Missouri and

7 mentioned -- I believe you said he told you about Kevin

8 Cooper, mentioned the name when he came to see you?

9 A Yes.

10 Q All right. You had, just a few months before that, I

11 guess, seen the 48 Hour piece?

Approximately four months, yes.

179

12 A

13 Q So that the name was familiar to you, even based on the

14 48 Hour piece?

15 A

16 Q

It would have been familiar anyway. Yes.

NOw, when you and I talked about sports, Ms. Wolfe, did

17 you tell me you were a St. Louis Cardinal fan?

18 A You bet I am, and you're a Cubs fan.

19 MR. ALEXANDER: No further questions, your Honor.

20 THE COURT: Anything else?

21 MS. WILKENS: (No audible response. )

22 THE COURT: You may step down.


24 (The witness was excused. )

25 THE COURT: Leave the admitted exhibits there.


1

180

MR. ALEXANDER: I would offer -- well, I guess it

2 was yours, technically, but I would agree to introduce into

3 evidence her declaration. It's already part of the record.

4

5

THE COURT: It's part of the record.

MS. WILKENS: Your Honor, we have three witnesses

6 available this afternoon. The first witness will be Linda

7 Paulk. She will require some assistance getting into the

8 witness chair. She uses a motorized cart, and Ms. Denault

9 is bringing her in now.

10 Tomorrow, we have three witnesses scheduled. We

11 have Ms. Killian, Ms. Royals (phonetic), and Ms. Mansfield

12 scheduled for tomorrow. We also have a gentleman who is

13 from the Sheriff's Department. He will testify to the call

14 log from the night of the murders and show that there was no

15 calls to the bar. He was a patrol officer at the time. He

16 is now in the command of the Sheriff's Department.

17 THE COURT: Would she prefer to -- do you know,

18 would she prefer to just testify from her seated chair?

19 MS. WILKENS: It might be easier.

20 THE COURT: Then we can have a hand-held mike.

21 MS. WILKENS: That might be easier.

22 THE COURT: Sure. Let's just put her just

23 parallel to right with the board (sic).

24 MR. HILE: Your Honor, may we have a two- or

25 three-minute break while we're getting --


1

180

MR. ALEXANDER: I would offer -- well, I guess it

2 was yours, technically, but I would agree to introduce into

3 evidence her declaration. It's already part of the record.

4

5

THE COURT: It's part of the record.

MS. WILKENS: Your Honor, we have three witnesses

6 available this afternoon. The first witness will be Linda

7 Paulk. She will require some assistance getting into the

8 witness chair. She uses a motorized cart, and Ms. Denault

9 is bringing her in now.

10 Tomorrow, we have three witnesses scheduled. We

11 have Ms. Killian, Ms. Royals (phonetic), and Ms. Mansfield

12 scheduled for tomorrow. We also have a gentleman who is

13 from the Sheriff's Department. He will testify to the call

14 log from the night of the murders and show that there was no

15 calls to the bar. He was a patrol officer at the time. He

16 is now in the command of the Sheriff's Department.

17 THE COURT: Would she prefer to -- do you know,

18 would she prefer to just testify from her seated chair?

19 MS. WILKENS: It might be easier.

20 THE COURT: Then we can have a hand-held mike.

21 MS. WILKENS: That might be easier.

22 THE COURT: Sure. Let's just put her just

23 parallel to right with the board (sic).

24 MR. HILE: Your Honor, may we have a two- or

25 three-minute break while we're getting --


181

1 MS. WILKENS: No, she's

2 THE COURT: Do you need her?

3 MR. HILE: Right. No, it's fine.

4 THE COURT: Okay. For your convenience, if you

5 could just turn, we'll just put you there on the side, so I

6 can see you, and then we'll just have you continue

7

8

9 for you?

10

11

12

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: On this side?

THE COURT: -- in your vehicle. Would that work

MS. PAULK: Uh-huh.

THE COURT: Sure. Good. All right.

You want turn it a little bit so that counsel can

13 see. Perfect. Thank you.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

record,

name for


LINDA PAULK, RESPONDENT'S WITNESS, SWORN

THE CLERK: Thank you.

THE COURT: We'll put this on for you.

THE CLERK: Please state your full name for the

spelling your first and last name.

THE WITNESS: You want my middle name, too?

THE CLERK: First and last name.

THE WITNESS: Linda Paulk.

THE COURT: Thank you. Please spell your last

us.

THE WITNESS: P-A-U-L-K.


181

1 MS. WILKENS: No, she's

2 THE COURT: Do you need her?

3 MR. HILE: Right. No, it's fine.

4 THE COURT: Okay. For your convenience, if you

5 could just turn, we'll just put you there on the side, so I

6 can see you, and then we'll just have you continue

7

8

9 for you?

10

11

12

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: On this side?

THE COURT: -- in your vehicle. Would that work

MS. PAULK: Uh-huh.

THE COURT: Sure. Good. All right.

You want turn it a little bit so that counsel can

13 see. Perfect. Thank you.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

record,

name for


LINDA PAULK, RESPONDENT'S WITNESS, SWORN

THE CLERK: Thank you.

THE COURT: We'll put this on for you.


spelling your first and last name.

THE WITNESS: You want my middle name, too?

THE CLERK: First and last name.

THE WITNESS: Linda Paulk.

THE COURT: Thank you. Please spell your last

us.

THE WITNESS: P-A-U-L-K.


1

2

3


MS. WILKENS: Thank you 1 your Honor.

DIRECT EXAMINATION

4 BY MS. WILKENS:

5 Q Ms. Paulk l did you hear about the murder of the Ryens

6 and Chris Hughes in June of 1983?

7 A Yes.

182

8 Q And do you know where you were the night that the Ryens

9 and Chris Hughes were murdered?

10 A Yes. I was in the Canyon Corral.

11 Q Okay. And Ms. Paulk l I I m going to show you a

12 photograph I which is JJJ-l.

13 A

14 Q

15 A

16 Q

17 A

18 Q

That/s it.

Okay. Do you recognize that photograph?

Yes.

What is it?

The Canyon Corral.

Okay. And do you still live in Chino?

19 A No.

20 Q Okay. Had you ever been to the Canyon Corral before

21 that night?

22 A

23 Q

Sure.

Okay. Approximately how often would you go to the

24 Canyon Corral?

25 A Maybe a couple nights.


1

2

3


MS. WILKENS: Thank you 1 your Honor.

DIRECT EXAMINATION

4 BY MS. WILKENS:

5 Q Ms. Paulk l did you hear about the murder of the Ryens

6 and Chris Hughes in June of 1983?

7 A Yes.

182

8 Q And do you know where you were the night that the Ryens

9 and Chris Hughes were murdered?

10 A Yes. I was in the Canyon Corral.

11 Q Okay. And Ms. Paulk l I I m going to show you a

12 photograph I which is JJJ-l.

13 A

14 Q

15 A

16 Q

17 A

18 Q

That/s it.

Okay. Do you recognize that photograph?

Yes.

What is it?

The Canyon Corral.

Okay. And do you still live in Chino?

19 A No.

20 Q Okay. Had you ever been to the Canyon Corral before

21 that night?

22 A

23 Q

Sure.

Okay. Approximately how often would you go to the

24 Canyon Corral?

25 A Maybe a couple nights.


183

1 Q Okay. Do you remember when you first started going to

2 the Canyon Corral?

3 A Not really. I was probably 32 or something. I don't

4 know what year. I'm 55 now. Other than that --

5 Q So it would be about - -

6 A I got divorced when I was 31, though.

7 Q About 1980? About 1980?

8 A Yes, probably.

9 Q Okay. NOw, on the night of the murders, did you see

10 anyone come into the bar that you didn't think fit in?

Yes. There were three guys that came in. 11 A

12 Q Okay. And what about them caused you think they didn't

13 fit in?

14 A They were just -- well, they all had, like, T-shirts

15 on, but this one big guy that came in first, he had on like

16 a shirt that said, "May the force be with you. II And they

17 had the short haircuts, you know, like service guys. So I

18 just assumed they were probably, you know, people that were

19 on leave from the service or something.

20 Q Okay. So they looked like military personnel?

21 A Military, yes.

22 Q Okay. And they had casual clothes on?

23 A Right.

24 Q Okay. Do you remember what kind of shirts the three

25 men were wearing?


183

1 Q Okay. Do you remember when you first started going to

2 the Canyon Corral?

3 A Not really. I was probably 32 or something. I don't

4 know what year. I'm 55 now. Other than that --

5 Q So it would be about - -

6 A I got divorced when I was 31, though.

7 Q About 1980? About 1980?

8 A Yes, probably.

9 Q Okay. NOw, on the night of the murders, did you see

10 anyone come into the bar that you didn't think fit in?

Yes. There were three guys that came in. 11 A

12 Q Okay. And what about them caused you think they didn't

13 fit in?

14 A They were just -- well, they all had, like, T-shirts

15 on, but this one big guy that came in first, he had on like

16 a shirt that said, "May the force be with you. II And they

17 had the short haircuts, you know, like service guys. So I

18 just assumed they were probably, you know, people that were

19 on leave from the service or something.

20 Q Okay. So they looked like military personnel?

21 A Military, yes.

22 Q Okay. And they had casual clothes on?

23 A Right.

24 Q Okay. Do you remember what kind of shirts the three

25 men were wearing?


1 A Well, I just remember, really, that one that had the

2 white shirt on, but they all wore kind of like casual

3 clothes.

4 Q Do you remember what color hair they had?

5 A I don't - - 20 years ago.

6 Q Okay.

7 A A long time to remember.

8 Q Yes, it is. Do you recall where you were seated that

9 night in the bar?

10 A Yes. We came in there for dinner, so we were sitting

11 in the -- I think it was the second booth over from the

12 door, front door.

184

13 Q Okay. So, if you came in the front door, would I look

14 to my left or my right?

15 A

16 Q

Left, the left.

Okay. So, if I came in the front door to the bar that

17 night, and I looked to my left, you'd be in about the second

18 booth over?

19 A Second, yes, second booth over.

20 Q Okay. And who were you there with that night?

21 A Pam Smith.

22 Q Okay. And how long had you known Pam?

23 A Well, my daughter used to babysit her kids, so a long

24 time.

25 Q Okay. And so you were friends?


1 A Well, I just remember, really, that one that had the

2 white shirt on, but they all wore kind of like casual

3 clothes.

4 Q Do you remember what color hair they had?

5 A I don't - - 20 years ago.

6 Q Okay.

7 A A long time to remember.

8 Q Yes, it is. Do you recall where you were seated that

9 night in the bar?

10 A Yes. We came in there for dinner, so we were sitting

11 in the -- I think it was the second booth over from the

12 door, front door.

184

13 Q Okay. So, if you came in the front door, would I look

14 to my left or my right?

15 A

16 Q

Left, the left.

Okay. So, if I came in the front door to the bar that

17 night, and I looked to my left, you'd be in about the second

18 booth over?

19 A Second, yes, second booth over.

20 Q Okay. And who were you there with that night?

21 A Pam Smith.

22 Q Okay. And how long had you known Pam?

23 A Well, my daughter used to babysit her kids, so a long

24 time.

25 Q Okay. And so you were friends?


185

1 A Yes, and neighbors.

2 Q Okay. Who in the booth had their back to the door that

3 night?

4 A She did.

5 Q Okay. And you saw these men come in the front door.

6 Is that correct?

7 A Yes. I'm not sure, but I think they either came in

8 the -- I think they came in the side door.

9 Q Okay. NOw, what's the side door?

10 A

11 Q

It would have been on the right-hand side of the -

Okay. By "side door," is that where I would come in

12 from the parking lot?

13 A Yes. Well, there's parking on both sides, or there

14 were. There's not now.

15 Q How many ways are there for patrons to come into the

16 bar?

17 A Well, I know there's four doors, but they kept a couple

18 of them locked, I guess. There was one by the bathrooms,

19 and then there was one over by where the band is, and then

20 there was one on the opposite side of the place, and then

21 the front one.

22 Q

23 A

24 Q

25 A

Okay. Well, how many were accessible to patrons?

Two, three, maybe.

Okay.

If the band wasn't playing, you could get in the back.


185

1 A Yes, and neighbors.

2 Q Okay. Who in the booth had their back to the door that

3 night?

4 A She did.

5 Q Okay. And you saw these men come in the front door.

6 Is that correct?

7 A Yes. I'm not sure, but I think they either came in

8 the -- I think they came in the side door.

9 Q Okay. NOw, what's the side door?

10 A

11 Q

It would have been on the right-hand side of the -

Okay. By "side door," is that where I would come in

12 from the parking lot?

13 A Yes. Well, there's parking on both sides, or there

14 were. There's not now.

15 Q How many ways are there for patrons to come into the

16 bar?

17 A Well, I know there's four doors, but they kept a couple

18 of them locked, I guess. There was one by the bathrooms,

19 and then there was one over by where the band is, and then

20 there was one on the opposite side of the place, and then

21 the front one.

22 Q

23 A

24 Q

25 A

Okay. Well, how many were accessible to patrons?

Two, three, maybe.

Okay.

If the band wasn't playing, you could get in the back.


186

1 Q Where did you see the men when you first noticed them?

2 A They were coming towards us.

3 Q Okay. They were walking by your booth?

4 A Yes. They were coming this way (witness indicating) .

5 Q Okay. Were they going towards the front door or away

6 from the front door when they walked by your booth?

7 A They were walking towards where the band was.

8 Q Now, was there a band playing that night?

9 A Probably.

10 Q .Don't recall?

11 A They usually played on Friday and Saturday nights.

12 don't know whether -- I'm pretty sure they were.

13 Q

14 A

Did you notice where these three men were seated?

Not really. After they walked by, I didn't pay that

15 much attention to where they went.

16 Q

17 A

Okay.

They were headed towards the band area. There's a

18 dance floor.

19 Q

20 A

21 Q

Did you notice anything on their shoes?

No.

Okay. Did you notice what kind of shoes they were

22 wearing?

23 A

24 Q

25 A

Not really.

Okay. Did you know what kind of pants they had on?

Just regular pants, nothing out of the ordinary, you

I


186

1 Q Where did you see the men when you first noticed them?

2 A They were coming towards us.

3 Q Okay. They were walking by your booth?

4 A Yes. They were coming this way (witness indicating) .

5 Q Okay. Were they going towards the front door or away

6 from the front door when they walked by your booth?

7 A They were walking towards where the band was.

8 Q Now, was there a band playing that night?

9 A Probably.

10 Q .Don't recall?

11 A They usually played on Friday and Saturday nights.

12 don't know whether -- I'm pretty sure they were.

13 Q

14 A

Did you notice where these three men were seated?

Not really. After they walked by, I didn't pay that

15 much attention to where they went.

16 Q

17 A

Okay.

They were headed towards the band area. There's a

18 dance floor.

19 Q

20 A

21 Q

Did you notice anything on their shoes?

No.

Okay. Did you notice what kind of shoes they were

22 wearing?

23 A

24 Q

25 A

Not really.

Okay. Did you know what kind of pants they had on?

Just regular pants, nothing out of the ordinary, you

I


187

1 know.

2 Q Did you see anyone in the bar that night with coveralls

3 on?

4 A No.

5 Q Did you notice blood on any of the three men?

6 A No. They were all real clean-looking.

7 Q They were clean?

8 A Yes.

9 Q Okay. So their clothing was clean?

10 A Yes t real clean.

11 Q Okay. They were neatly groomed?

12 A Yes t and they were big guys. They looked like service

13 gUYSt you know t real muscular-type guys.

14 Q Okay. And did you speak to law enforcement about

15 seeing the three men in the bar that night?

16 A

17 Q

18 A

Yes.

Okay. And how did that come about?

I was just -- after we heard about what happened t you

19 know t me and Pam decided we should let somebody know that we

20 saw the three guys in there.

21 Q Okay. And what was it about the three men that you

22 thought would be of interest?

23 A Well t we were both single at the timet and t you know t

24 when youtre sitting there t you see these three pretty good-

25 looking guys come walking in. They were young t you know.


187

1 know.

2 Q Did you see anyone in the bar that night with coveralls

3 on?

4 A No.

5 Q Did you notice blood on any of the three men?

6 A No. They were all real clean-looking.

7 Q They were clean?

8 A Yes.

9 Q Okay. So their clothing was clean?

10 A Yes t real clean.

11 Q Okay. They were neatly groomed?

12 A Yes t and they were big guys. They looked like service

13 gUYSt you know t real muscular-type guys.

14 Q Okay. And did you speak to law enforcement about

15 seeing the three men in the bar that night?

16 A

17 Q

18 A

Yes.

Okay. And how did that come about?

I was just -- after we heard about what happened t you

19 know t me and Pam decided we should let somebody know that we

20 saw the three guys in there.

21 Q Okay. And what was it about the three men that you

22 thought would be of interest?

23 A Well t we were both single at the timet and t you know t

24 when youtre sitting there t you see these three pretty good-

25 looking guys come walking in. They were young t you know.


188

1 They weren't, you know, old, but, you know, you just notice.

2 I didn't look at their feet.

3 Q Did you personally call the sheriff?

4 A I don't know whether it was me or Pam, but we discussed

5 it together, and decided we should say something.

6 Q Okay. So one of you called the sheriff?

7 A Yes.

8 Q And then the sheriff spoke with you?

9 A It was probably her, because I think I was at her

10 house.

11 Q

12 A

13 Q

Okay. And the sheriff did speak to you?

Yes.

Okay. Now, what was it about these men that you

14 thought would interest the sheriff?

15 A Well, I don't know. I don't remember, other than we

16 were at the bar that night that it happened, you know, and

17 they were three guys that normally weren't -- that we'd

18 never seen in there before.

19 Q Okay. So they were strangers?

20 A Yes.

21 Q Okay. And do you remember when you were interviewed by

22 the sheriff?

23 A It was maybe a few days after that. I don't know.

24 Q Okay. So, within a few days, the sheriff came out and

25 talked to you?


188

1 They weren't, you know, old, but, you know, you just notice.

2 I didn't look at their feet.

3 Q Did you personally call the sheriff?

4 A I don't know whether it was me or Pam, but we discussed

5 it together, and decided we should say something.

6 Q Okay. So one of you called the sheriff?

7 A Yes.

8 Q And then the sheriff spoke with you?

9 A It was probably her, because I think I was at her

10 house.

11 Q

12 A

13 Q

Okay. And the sheriff did speak to you?

Yes.

Okay. Now, what was it about these men that you

14 thought would interest the sheriff?

15 A Well, I don't know. I don't remember, other than we

16 were at the bar that night that it happened, you know, and

17 they were three guys that normally weren't -- that we'd

18 never seen in there before.

19 Q Okay. So they were strangers?

20 A Yes.

21 Q Okay. And do you remember when you were interviewed by

22 the sheriff?

23 A It was maybe a few days after that. I don't know.

24 Q Okay. So, within a few days, the sheriff came out and

25 talked to you?


189

1 A Yes. I think there might have been two of them.

2 Q Okay. Was Pam Smith with you at the time you were

3 interviewed? Were you interviewed together?

4 A Yes.

5 Q Okay.

6 A Yes.

7 Q And you gave a description of the men?

8 A Uh-huh.

9 Q Okay. And were you called to testify after giving

10 information to the sheriff?

11 A They just called me. That was the year -- the

12 following year.

13 Q Okay. And did you see anybody in the bar that night

14 with blood on them?

15 A No.

16 Q Okay. Do you think the sheriff would be interested in

17 knowing that someone had blood on them?

18 A Well

19 MR. ALEXANDER: Objection l your Honor,

20 speculation.


22 BY MS. WILKENS:

23 Q All right. And did you tell the sheriff everything

24 that you could recall about the men?

25 A Basically, it was just the three guys that we saw that,


189

1 A Yes. I think there might have been two of them.

2 Q Okay. Was Pam Smith with you at the time you were

3 interviewed? Were you interviewed together?

4 A Yes.

5 Q Okay.

6 A Yes.

7 Q And you gave a description of the men?

8 A Uh-huh.

9 Q Okay. And were you called to testify after giving

10 information to the sheriff?

11 A They just called me. That was the year -- the

12 following year.

13 Q Okay. And did you see anybody in the bar that night

14 with blood on them?

15 A No.

16 Q Okay. Do you think the sheriff would be interested in

17 knowing that someone had blood on them?

18 A Well

19 MR. ALEXANDER: Objection l your Honor,

20 speculation.


22 BY MS. WILKENS:

23 Q All right. And did you tell the sheriff everything

24 that you could recall about the men?

25 A Basically, it was just the three guys that we saw that,


1 you know, were kind of -- it's a country/western bar. So,

2 you know, they didn't really fit into the scheme of the

3 place.

4 Q Was there anything about their behavior that caught

5 your attention?

6 A Just that they had, like, military haircuts, the real

190

7 short, short hair on the sides. None of them do their shoes

8 (sic).

9 Q

10 A

11 Q

12 A

13 know

14 Q

15 A

16 Q

17 A

18 left.

19 Q

20 A

21 Q

22 A

23 Q

24 A

25

Do you recall about what time they arrived in

It was probably about 8:00 or 9:00 o'clock.

And do you remember how long they were

I didn't even see them leave. If they

(sic) .

Okay. Do you know what time you left?

Around 10:00.

Okay. Did you have --

there?

left I

the bar?

don't

We went there for dinner, so we probably got dinner and

Okay.

I think maybe 8:00, 9:00 o'clock.

So you left about 9:00?

Yes, I think.

Okay.

Not too long after the band started.

MS. WILKENS: I have no further questions, your


1 you know, were kind of -- it's a country/western bar. So,

2 you know, they didn't really fit into the scheme of the

3 place.

4 Q Was there anything about their behavior that caught

5 your attention?

6 A Just that they had, like, military haircuts, the real

190

7 short, short hair on the sides. None of them do their shoes

8 (sic).

9 Q

10 A

11 Q

12 A

13 know

14 Q

15 A

16 Q

17 A

18 left.

19 Q

20 A

21 Q

22 A

23 Q

24 A

25

Do you recall about what time they arrived in

It was probably about 8:00 or 9:00 o'clock.

And do you remember how long they were

I didn't even see them leave. If they

(sic) .

Okay. Do you know what time you left?

Around 10:00.

Okay. Did you have --

there?

left I

the bar?

don't

We went there for dinner, so we probably got dinner and

Okay.

I think maybe 8:00, 9:00 o'clock.

So you left about 9:00?

Yes, I think.

Okay.

Not too long after the band started.

MS. WILKENS: I have no further questions, your


1 Honor.

2

3

THE COURT: Cross?

CROSS EXAMINATION

4 BY MR. ALEXANDER:

5 Q Hi, Ms. Paulk. My name is David Alexander. I just

6 have a very few questions for you.

7 A Okay.

191

8 Q You would agree, would you not, that your recollection

9 of what you observed the evening of June the 4th, 1983, was

10 much better within a couple of days after that night than it

11 is today, correct?

12 A

13 Q

Probably, but I do remember the three guys.

Okay. Sure.

14 A They were coming right at me.

15 Q And I'm going to help you out, here, so I'm going to

16 show you a diagram of the inside of the bar. Are you going

17 to be able to manage that? You got it?

18 A Uh-huh.

19 Q Thanks. For the record, Ms. Paulk, I'm showing you

20 what has been marked in this matter as Exhibit SSS-I, and

21 specifically, as part of that exhibit, that's a diagram,

22 hand diagram --

23 A You're missing a couple doors.

24 Q -- of the bar.



1 Honor.

2

3

THE COURT: Cross?

CROSS EXAMINATION

4 BY MR. ALEXANDER:

5 Q Hi, Ms. Paulk. My name is David Alexander. I just

6 have a very few questions for you.

7 A Okay.

191

8 Q You would agree, would you not, that your recollection

9 of what you observed the evening of June the 4th, 1983, was

10 much better within a couple of days after that night than it

11 is today, correct?

12 A

13 Q

Probably, but I do remember the three guys.

Okay. Sure.

14 A They were coming right at me.

15 Q And I'm going to help you out, here, so I'm going to

16 show you a diagram of the inside of the bar. Are you going

17 to be able to manage that? You got it?

18 A Uh-huh.

19 Q Thanks. For the record, Ms. Paulk, I'm showing you

20 what has been marked in this matter as Exhibit SSS-I, and

21 specifically, as part of that exhibit, that's a diagram,

22 hand diagram --


24 Q -- of the bar.



192

1 Q All right. What I want to ask you is, looking at that

2 diagram, when you came -- where you and Pamela Smith were

3 sitting was coming in the front door and going to the left,

4 correct?

5 A Yes.

6 Q All right. And the time you saw these men come in,

7 they came in the front door and then just walked by you,

8 correct?

9 A Yes, yes. Actually, I don't know for sure if they came

10 in the front door or they came in this door over here

11 (witness indicating).

12 Q When you say "over here"

13 A What you don't show here

14 Q When we say "over here"

15 A There is a door there.

16 Q You're pointing to a door on the right side?

17 A Over here (witness indicating) , on the

18 Q All right. Hold on. We're going to have to make it

19 clear. When you say there was a door "over here," there's

20 the words "Peyton Drive," correct?

21 A

22 Q

Right.

And then there is the word "Booth," smaller sized, at

23 least on the drawing, correct?

24 A

25 Q

Yes.

And you're suggesting there was a door on that side?


192

1 Q All right. What I want to ask you is, looking at that

2 diagram, when you came -- where you and Pamela Smith were

3 sitting was coming in the front door and going to the left,

4 correct?

5 A Yes.

6 Q All right. And the time you saw these men come in,

7 they came in the front door and then just walked by you,

8 correct?

9 A Yes, yes. Actually, I don't know for sure if they came

10 in the front door or they came in this door over here


12 Q When you say "over here"

13 A What you don't show here

14 Q When we say "over here"

15 A There is a door there.

16 Q You're pointing to a door on the right side?

17 A Over here (witness indicating) , on the

18 Q All right. Hold on. We're going to have to make it

19 clear. When you say there was a door "over here," there's

20 the words "Peyton Drive," correct?

21 A

22 Q

Right.

And then there is the word "Booth," smaller sized, at

23 least on the drawing, correct?

24 A

25 Q

Yes.

And you're suggesting there was a door on that side?


193

1 A Yes. There was a door there, and there was also a door

2 by the bathrooms.

3 Q Right, outside the bathrooms. All right. And you're

4 not sure whether they came in the front door or whether they

5 came in the side door?

6 A Well, I'm pretty sure they would have come in here


8 Q When you say "here," let me just -- for the record,

9 that's the door that you say is between the small booth and

10 the larger booth at the bottom right-hand corner?

11 A Yes. This was like a round - -

12 Q A round the corner booth, that's kind of round?

13 A Yes.

14 Q Sure. Okay.

15 A And then there's a door right here (witness

16 indicating).

17 Q

18 A

19 Q

And the door right here is above that round seat?

Yes.

All right. Now, but where you were sitting -- all

20 right?

21 A

22 Q

I was sitting right here (witness indicating).

All right. And you're pointing to the booth to the

23 left of the front door that's in the middle?

24 A

25 Q

Right.

All right. And when you saw these attractive young men


193

1 A Yes. There was a door there, and there was also a door

2 by the bathrooms.

3 Q Right, outside the bathrooms. All right. And you're

4 not sure whether they came in the front door or whether they

5 came in the side door?

6 A Well, I'm pretty sure they would have come in here


8 Q When you say "here," let me just -- for the record,

9 that's the door that you say is between the small booth and

10 the larger booth at the bottom right-hand corner?

11 A Yes. This was like a round - -

12 Q A round the corner booth, that's kind of round?

13 A Yes.

14 Q Sure. Okay.

15 A And then there's a door right here (witness

16 indicating).

17 Q

18 A

19 Q

And the door right here is above that round seat?

Yes.

All right. Now, but where you were sitting -- all

20 right?

21 A

22 Q

I was sitting right here (witness indicating).

All right. And you're pointing to the booth to the

23 left of the front door that's in the middle?

24 A

25 Q

Right.

All right. And when you saw these attractive young men


1 walk in, as you described them, correct, they came in and

2 just walked by your booth, correct?

3 A Right.

4 Q And so they were by your booth sort of sideways, in

5 other words?

6 A No, they just walked straight in.

7 Q No, I understand, but I mean, where you were sitting,

194

8 you would be seeing their sides, correct, as opposed to the

9 front end?

10 A No, no. I was sitting here (witness indicating). You

11 could see them going by.

12 Q Okay. All right. And so it was just a matter of a few

13 seconds, they walked by your booth?

14 A

15 Q

16 A

17 Q

18 been

19 A

20 Q

Yes.

Okay. NOw, was it dark - - I'll relieve you of this.

No, it's not - - it was more of a restaurant until - -

Okay. So, at that time of the night, the lights hadn't

dimmed yet?

Right.

Okay. NOw, are you familiar with the fact that, later

21 in the evening, lights would be dimmed in the bar?

22 A A little bit, but I don't think they dimmed them that

23 much, because, like I said, it was a restaurant, and they

24 served dinner until 10:00 o'clock or whatever.

25 Q And you believe you left sometime -- about when the


1 walk in, as you described them, correct, they came in and

2 just walked by your booth, correct?

3 A Right.

4 Q And so they were by your booth sort of sideways, in

5 other words?

6 A No, they just walked straight in.

7 Q No, I understand, but I mean, where you were sitting,

194

8 you would be seeing their sides, correct, as opposed to the

9 front end?

10 A No, no. I was sitting here (witness indicating). You

11 could see them going by.

12 Q Okay. All right. And so it was just a matter of a few

13 seconds, they walked by your booth?

14 A

15 Q

16 A

17 Q

18 been

19 A

20 Q

Yes.

Okay. NOw, was it dark - - I'll relieve you of this.

No, it's not - - it was more of a restaurant until - -

Okay. So, at that time of the night, the lights hadn't

dimmed yet?

Right.

Okay. NOw, are you familiar with the fact that, later

21 in the evening, lights would be dimmed in the bar?

22 A A little bit, but I don't think they dimmed them that

23 much, because, like I said, it was a restaurant, and they

24 served dinner until 10:00 o'clock or whatever.

25 Q And you believe you left sometime -- about when the


195

1 band started?

2 A Yes, probably about that time.

3 Q All right. And then you mentioned to Ms. Wilkens that

4 you were subsequently interviewed by some sheriff

5 detectives, correct?

6 A Right.

7 Q And it was both you and Ms. Smith interviewed together?

8 A Yes.

9 Q Now, at the time, was your last name Westervoorde?

10 A

11 Q

12 A

13 Q

14 A

Yes, Westervoorde.

And that's W-E-S-T-E-R-V-O-O-R-D-E?

Right.

And your middle name is Carol?

Yes.

15 Q All right. And at that time, you didn't have a phone,

16 correct, at your home? Do you recall that?

Yes, I had a phone. 17 A

18 Q You did. Okay. Very well. And to the best of your

19 recollection, when these men came in, there was nothing

20 special about their behavior that you noticed?

21 A No. My opinion, that when they walked in, they looked

22 like servicemen. You know, they were clean-cut, and, you

23 know, most of the guys that came in there weren't that

24 neatly --

25 Q Weren't that clean-cut?


195

1 band started?

2 A Yes, probably about that time.

3 Q All right. And then you mentioned to Ms. Wilkens that

4 you were subsequently interviewed by some sheriff

5 detectives, correct?

6 A Right.

7 Q And it was both you and Ms. Smith interviewed together?

8 A Yes.

9 Q Now, at the time, was your last name Westervoorde?

10 A

11 Q

12 A

13 Q

14 A

Yes, Westervoorde.

And that's W-E-S-T-E-R-V-O-O-R-D-E?

Right.

And your middle name is Carol?

Yes.

15 Q All right. And at that time, you didn't have a phone,

16 correct, at your home? Do you recall that?

Yes, I had a phone. 17 A

18 Q You did. Okay. Very well. And to the best of your

19 recollection, when these men came in, there was nothing

20 special about their behavior that you noticed?

21 A No. My opinion, that when they walked in, they looked

22 like servicemen. You know, they were clean-cut, and, you

23 know, most of the guys that came in there weren't that

24 neatly --

25 Q Weren't that clean-cut?


196

1 A That neat and clean-cut.

2 Q I see. All right. If I could mark as Exhibit -- this

3 is exhibit next in order, which I'm going to show you, is

4 21.

5 What I'm going to show you, Ms. Paulk, is a copy of

6 what we've marked as Petitioner's Exhibit 21, which I'll

7 represent to you is a report dated 6/10/83 of an interview

8 of yourself and Ms. Smith. All right? And take a moment,

9 if you would, and take a moment, and just look at that

10 briefly.

11 Now, you do recall being interviewed by a detective,

12 correct?


Yes.

And do you recall his name?

No.

13

14 A

15 Q

16 A

17 Q All right. If I suggest Detective Wilson, does that

18 ring a bell?

19 A Because, you know, just came and asked us a couple

20 questions, and then they left, and we never heard any more.

21 Q All right. And I think, consistent with what you said,

22 this was on Monday, June the 6th, 1983, the day after the

23 crimes were discovered. Is that consistent with your

24 recollection?

25 A Yes.


196

1 A That neat and clean-cut.

2 Q I see. All right. If I could mark as Exhibit -- this

3 is exhibit next in order, which I'm going to show you, is

4 21.

5 What I'm going to show you, Ms. Paulk, is a copy of

6 what we've marked as Petitioner's Exhibit 21, which I'll

7 represent to you is a report dated 6/10/83 of an interview

8 of yourself and Ms. Smith. All right? And take a moment,

9 if you would, and take a moment, and just look at that

10 briefly.

11 Now, you do recall being interviewed by a detective,

12 correct?


Yes.

And do you recall his name?

No.

13

14 A

15 Q

16 A

17 Q All right. If I suggest Detective Wilson, does that

18 ring a bell?

19 A Because, you know, just came and asked us a couple

20 questions, and then they left, and we never heard any more.

21 Q All right. And I think, consistent with what you said,

22 this was on Monday, June the 6th, 1983, the day after the

23 crimes were discovered. Is that consistent with your

24 recollection?

25 A Yes.


197

1 Q Now l did this interview take place -- weIll better yetI

2 where did the interview take placel if you recall?

3 A Pam/s house.

4 Q In Pam/s house. All right. And this followed a

5 telephone call that you or Pam had made?

6 A Yes.

7 Q Okay. And now I want you to direct your attention to

8 the last paragraph in the report, and it says:

9

10

11

12

13

14

"She states that when they saw the

subjects l they appeared to be

intoxicated, especially the subject with

the brown hair l as he had great

difficulty in leaving the bar without

running into things."

15 Now, does that refresh your recollection that either

16 your or Ms. Smith made that statement?

17 A I think she probably did l yes. I didn/t.

18 Q You did not?

19 A No. I didn/t see anybody run into nothing.

20 Q 11m sorry? I can/t hear you.

21 A I didn/t see anybody run into anything. I just saw

22 them walk through the bar.

23 Q All right. So you believe that was Ms. Smith that made

24 that observation?

25 A Yes.


197

1 Q Now l did this interview take place -- weIll better yetI

2 where did the interview take placel if you recall?

3 A Pam/s house.

4 Q In Pam/s house. All right. And this followed a

5 telephone call that you or Pam had made?

6 A Yes.

7 Q Okay. And now I want you to direct your attention to

8 the last paragraph in the report, and it says:

9

10

11

12

13

14


subjects l they appeared to be


the brown hair l as he had great



15 Now, does that refresh your recollection that either

16 your or Ms. Smith made that statement?

17 A I think she probably did l yes. I didn/t.

18 Q You did not?

19 A No. I didn/t see anybody run into nothing.

20 Q 11m sorry? I can/t hear you.

21 A I didn/t see anybody run into anything. I just saw

22 them walk through the bar.

23 Q All right. So you believe that was Ms. Smith that made

24 that observation?

25 A Yes.


198

1 Q Now t assuming that what he wrote down is correct t did

2 you say to the detective t "Not thatts not true t " or anything

3 to that effect? Do you recall?

4 A I dontt think I did.

5 Q All right. Fair enough. And did you tell the

6 detective at that time everything you could recall about the

7 three men coming into the Canyon Corral Bar that evening?

8 A Yes.

9 THE COURT: Excuse me. If you would speak up just

10 a bit.


12 Q The last line sayst "No additional information could be

13 obtained t and the interview was concluded." Did Detective

14 Wilson ask you a series of questions t other than -- in

15 addition to your telling him what you saw?

16 A

17 Q

NOt not that I remember.

And with regard to one of the three men t two days

18 after t you could not give any description of that person t

19 correct?

20 A BasicallYt I remembered the guy with the shirt t "May

21 the force be with you t " and thatts why I thought they were

22 service t that and the haircuts t and the way they were

23 dressed and everything.

24 Q And just to look at individual number one t is that

25 consistent with your recollection that one of them had


198

1 Q Now t assuming that what he wrote down is correct t did

2 you say to the detective t "Not thatts not true t " or anything

3 to that effect? Do you recall?

4 A I dontt think I did.

5 Q All right. Fair enough. And did you tell the

6 detective at that time everything you could recall about the

7 three men coming into the Canyon Corral Bar that evening?

8 A Yes.

9 THE COURT: Excuse me. If you would speak up just

10 a bit.


12 Q The last line sayst "No additional information could be

13 obtained t and the interview was concluded." Did Detective

14 Wilson ask you a series of questions t other than -- in

15 addition to your telling him what you saw?

16 A

17 Q

NOt not that I remember.

And with regard to one of the three men t two days

18 after t you could not give any description of that person t

19 correct?

20 A BasicallYt I remembered the guy with the shirt t "May

21 the force be with you t " and thatts why I thought they were

22 service t that and the haircuts t and the way they were

23 dressed and everything.

24 Q And just to look at individual number one t is that

25 consistent with your recollection that one of them had


199

1 darker hair which was longer than the others'?

2 A I don't

3 Q Look at number one. Does that refresh your

4 recollection to that effect?

5 A I don't remember any of them having long hair.

6 Q Well, by "long hair," it's described as "came to about

7 the mid-ear and rounded in the back." Do you recall that?

8 A I don't think that I don't -- I just remember the

9 one guy with the -- they all looked like clean-cut guys.

10 They weren't, you know, long-haired weirdos, you know. They

11 didn't look that -- you'd see some of those in there. Not

12 them.

13 Q

14

Now, where do you live today, Ms. Paulk?

THE COURT: Not the address, but just the --


16 Q No, no, no. I'm sorry. Absolutely not your address,

17 just the town.

18 A

19 Q

El Monte.

All right. Thank you. And did you not look at the

20 men's shoes at all? I know that wasn't your prime interest

21 at that young age.

22 A No.

All right. Thank you very much. 23 Q

24 A

25

I didn't pay a lot of attention to their shoes.



199

1 darker hair which was longer than the others'?

2 A I don't

3 Q Look at number one. Does that refresh your

4 recollection to that effect?

5 A I don't remember any of them having long hair.

6 Q Well, by "long hair," it's described as "came to about

7 the mid-ear and rounded in the back." Do you recall that?

8 A I don't think that I don't -- I just remember the

9 one guy with the -- they all looked like clean-cut guys.

10 They weren't, you know, long-haired weirdos, you know. They

11 didn't look that -- you'd see some of those in there. Not

12 them.

13 Q

14

Now, where do you live today, Ms. Paulk?

THE COURT: Not the address, but just the --


16 Q No, no, no. I'm sorry. Absolutely not your address,

17 just the town.

18 A

19 Q

El Monte.

All right. Thank you. And did you not look at the

20 men's shoes at all? I know that wasn't your prime interest

21 at that young age.

22 A No.

All right. Thank you very much. 23 Q

24 A

25

I didn't pay a lot of attention to their shoes.



1

2

3

4

I have no further questions, your Honor.

THE COURT: Redirect?

MS. WILKENS: Very briefly, your Honor.


5 BY MS. WILKENS:

200

6 Q Now, Ms. Paulk, just to clarify, did you and Ms. Smith

7 leave the bar together that night?

8 A Yes.

9 Q Okay. So you left at the same time?

10 A Yes.

11 Q Okay. And did you see the three men come into the bar

12 more than once that night?

13 A No.

Just the once?

Just the one time.

MS. WILKENS: Okay. Thank you.

THE COURT: Anything else?

14 Q

15 A

16

17

18 MR. ALEXANDER: I'm sorry. No, your Honor. Thank

19 you.

20 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. Why don't you

21 give your exhibit to my clerk, and you're excused.



24 THE COURT: We'll take a short recess.

25 MR. ALEXANDER: Thank you, your Honor.


1

2

3

4

I have no further questions, your Honor.

THE COURT: Redirect?

MS. WILKENS: Very briefly, your Honor.


5 BY MS. WILKENS:

200

6 Q Now, Ms. Paulk, just to clarify, did you and Ms. Smith

7 leave the bar together that night?

8 A Yes.

9 Q Okay. So you left at the same time?

10 A Yes.

11 Q Okay. And did you see the three men come into the bar

12 more than once that night?

13 A No.

Just the once?

Just the one time.

MS. WILKENS: Okay. Thank you.


14 Q

15 A

16

17

18 MR. ALEXANDER: I'm sorry. No, your Honor. Thank

19 you.

20 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. Why don't you

21 give your exhibit to my clerk, and you're excused.



24 THE COURT: We'll take a short recess.

25 MR. ALEXANDER: Thank you, your Honor.


1

201

THE COURT: We'll be in recess until -- it's just

2 a short -- for 15.

3

4

MR. ALEXANDER: Fine. Thank you, your Honor.

THE COURT: Okay. Thanks.

5 (Whereupon, a brief recess was taken.)

6 THE COURT: We're back in session. You may call

7 your next witness.

8 MS. WILKENS: Thank you, your Honor. We would

9 call Pamela Smith.

10

11

12

13


PAMELA SMITH, RESPONDENT'S WITNESS, SWORN

THE CLERK: Please be seated.

THE COURT: Do you want to wait for Mr. Alexander?

14 Is he coming shortly?

15

16

MR. HILE: That would be nice, your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. He's momentarily on his

17 way up, we hope.


19

20

THE COURT: You may proceed.


21 record, spelling your first and last name.

22 THE WITNESS: Pamela Smith, P-A-M-E-L-A,

23 S-M-I-T-H.


25 II


1

201

THE COURT: We'll be in recess until -- it's just

2 a short -- for 15.

3

4

MR. ALEXANDER: Fine. Thank you, your Honor.

THE COURT: Okay. Thanks.


6 THE COURT: We're back in session. You may call

7 your next witness.

8 MS. WILKENS: Thank you, your Honor. We would

9 call Pamela Smith.

10

11

12

13


PAMELA SMITH, RESPONDENT'S WITNESS, SWORN

THE CLERK: Please be seated.

THE COURT: Do you want to wait for Mr. Alexander?

14 Is he coming shortly?

15

16

MR. HILE: That would be nice, your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. He's momentarily on his

17 way up, we hope.


19

20

THE COURT: You may proceed.


21 record, spelling your first and last name.

22 THE WITNESS: Pamela Smith, P-A-M-E-L-A,

23 S-M-I-T-H.


25 II


202

1 DIRECT EXAMINATION

2 BY MS. WILKENS:

3 Q Now, Ms. Smith, how do you spell your first name?

4 A P-A-M-E-L-A.

5 Q Okay. I think it's misspelled on your declaration. If

6 I could get you to turn -- in the white notebook in front of

7 you, there's a tab that has 000-1. Do you see your

8 declaration there?

9 A Yes.

10 Q

11 A

12 Q

Okay. And your first name is misspelled?

Yes.

Okay. And drawing your attention to the second page of

13 the declaration, is that your signature?

14

15

THE COURT: Properly spelled?

THE WITNESS: Yes.

16 BY MS. WILKENS:

17 Q Okay. And did you sign that on the date that's

18 indicated, ma'am?

19 A Yes.

20 Q Okay. So that would be April 6, 2004. Now, did you

21 hear about the murder of the Ryens and Chris Hughes in 1983?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And where were you on the night of those murders?

24 A At the Canyon Corral.

25 Q Okay. And inside the notebook, if you could turn to


202

1 DIRECT EXAMINATION

2 BY MS. WILKENS:

3 Q Now, Ms. Smith, how do you spell your first name?

4 A P-A-M-E-L-A.

5 Q Okay. I think it's misspelled on your declaration. If

6 I could get you to turn -- in the white notebook in front of

7 you, there's a tab that has 000-1. Do you see your

8 declaration there?

9 A Yes.

10 Q

11 A

12 Q

Okay. And your first name is misspelled?

Yes.

Okay. And drawing your attention to the second page of

13 the declaration, is that your signature?

14

15

THE COURT: Properly spelled?

THE WITNESS: Yes.

16 BY MS. WILKENS:

17 Q Okay. And did you sign that on the date that's

18 indicated, ma'am?

19 A Yes.

20 Q Okay. So that would be April 6, 2004. Now, did you

21 hear about the murder of the Ryens and Chris Hughes in 1983?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And where were you on the night of those murders?

24 A At the Canyon Corral.

25 Q Okay. And inside the notebook, if you could turn to


1 the tab that says "JJJ-l," there's a photograph. Do you

2 recognize that, ma'am?

3 A Yes, I do.

4 Q What is it?

5 A That's the Canyon Corral.

203

6 Q Okay. And did you go to the Canyon Corral Bar, in the

7 early 1980s, about every weekend?

8 A Pretty much, but it wasn't until like -- it was in 1983

9 that I started.

10 Q Okay. And would you go on a Friday or a Saturday

11 night?

12 A Yes.

13 Q Okay. One weekend night?

14 A Right.

15 Q Okay. Probably every week?

16 A Pretty close.

17 Q Okay. And the night of the Ryen/Hughes murders, do you

18 recall approximately how many people were in the bar that

19 night when you were there?

20 A

21 Q

No, not how many.

Okay. And when you were in the bar that night, did you

22 notice three men?

23 A

24 Q

25 A

Yes.

And why did you notice these men?

Because it was a neighborhood bar, and they didn't fit


1 the tab that says "JJJ-l," there's a photograph. Do you

2 recognize that, ma'am?

3 A Yes, I do.

4 Q What is it?

5 A That's the Canyon Corral.

203

6 Q Okay. And did you go to the Canyon Corral Bar, in the

7 early 1980s, about every weekend?

8 A Pretty much, but it wasn't until like -- it was in 1983

9 that I started.

10 Q Okay. And would you go on a Friday or a Saturday

11 night?

12 A Yes.

13 Q Okay. One weekend night?

14 A Right.

15 Q Okay. Probably every week?

16 A Pretty close.

17 Q Okay. And the night of the Ryen/Hughes murders, do you

18 recall approximately how many people were in the bar that

19 night when you were there?

20 A

21 Q

No, not how many.

Okay. And when you were in the bar that night, did you

22 notice three men?

23 A

24 Q

25 A

Yes.

And why did you notice these men?

Because it was a neighborhood bar, and they didn't fit


1 in.

2 Q Okay. Was it just that you didn't know them?

3 A No. Like, it was a country/western bar, and I think

4 some guy had something on his shirt that led me to believe

5 that he was not into country/western, maybe he was more

6 into, like, heavy metal, like a heavy metal band thing on

7 the back of his shirt.

8 Q Okay. So the clothing of one man indicated he didn't

9 really belong in a country/western bar?

10 A Right.

11 Q Was there anything else about their appearance that

12 made you think they didn't really belong in a

13 country/western bar?

14 A Well, just that they were younger, and most of it was

204

15 neighborhood people, and they just looked out of place, like

16 they didn't belong.

17 Q Okay. Approximately how old did the three men appear

18 to be?

19 A I would say like maybe between 21 and maybe 30. I'm

20 not very good at ages.

21 Q

22 A

23 Q

24 A

25 Q

Did they look old enough to be in a bar?

Yes.

Okay. How old were you, ma'am, in June of 1983?

I was 30 -- no, 29. Twenty-nine.

Okay. And do you recall what kind of shoes these men


1 in.

2 Q Okay. Was it just that you didn't know them?

3 A No. Like, it was a country/western bar, and I think

4 some guy had something on his shirt that led me to believe

5 that he was not into country/western, maybe he was more

6 into, like, heavy metal, like a heavy metal band thing on

7 the back of his shirt.

8 Q Okay. So the clothing of one man indicated he didn't

9 really belong in a country/western bar?

10 A Right.

11 Q Was there anything else about their appearance that

12 made you think they didn't really belong in a

13 country/western bar?

14 A Well, just that they were younger, and most of it was

204

15 neighborhood people, and they just looked out of place, like

16 they didn't belong.

17 Q Okay. Approximately how old did the three men appear

18 to be?

19 A I would say like maybe between 21 and maybe 30. I'm

20 not very good at ages.

21 Q

22 A

23 Q

24 A

25 Q

Did they look old enough to be in a bar?

Yes.

Okay. How old were you, ma'am, in June of 1983?

I was 30 -- no, 29. Twenty-nine.

Okay. And do you recall what kind of shoes these men


205

1 were wearing?

2 A They were wearing tennis shoes.

3 Q Okay. Was that unusual in the barl to be wearing

4 tennis shoes?

5 A Well l it was like a country/western dance place. So

6 most people then didn/t dance in tennis shoes.

7 Q Did you see the men dancing?

8 A No.

9 Q Okay. Were most of the men in the bar wearing boots?

10 A There were a lot of boots.

11 Q And do you recall what kind of shirts the men were

12 wearing l other than the man with the T-shirt with the logo?

13 A

14 Q

15 A

16 Q

They were just wearing T-shirts and jeans.

Okay. So three men in T-shirt and jeans?

Right.

Okay. Do you recall what time you went to the bar that

17 night?

18 A Normally around 7:00 1 but nOI on that particular night I

19 I couldn/t tell you what time we went I sometimes later. It

20 depended on when I got off work l if I was working.

21 Q And do you remember if you arrived at the bar with the

22 band already playing?

23 A I couldn/t even tell you who was playing that night I if

24 there was a band.

25 Q Okay. Now l were you alone that night or did you go


205

1 were wearing?

2 A They were wearing tennis shoes.

3 Q Okay. Was that unusual in the barl to be wearing

4 tennis shoes?

5 A Well l it was like a country/western dance place. So

6 most people then didn/t dance in tennis shoes.

7 Q Did you see the men dancing?

8 A No.

9 Q Okay. Were most of the men in the bar wearing boots?

10 A There were a lot of boots.

11 Q And do you recall what kind of shirts the men were

12 wearing l other than the man with the T-shirt with the logo?

13 A

14 Q

15 A

16 Q

They were just wearing T-shirts and jeans.

Okay. So three men in T-shirt and jeans?

Right.

Okay. Do you recall what time you went to the bar that

17 night?

18 A Normally around 7:00 1 but nOI on that particular night I

19 I couldn/t tell you what time we went I sometimes later. It

20 depended on when I got off work l if I was working.

21 Q And do you remember if you arrived at the bar with the

22 band already playing?

23 A I couldn/t even tell you who was playing that night I if

24 there was a band.

25 Q Okay. Now l were you alone that night or did you go


1 with someone?

2 A No, I went with Linda Westervoorde.

3 Q Okay. And did you arrive together?

4 A Yes.

5 Q Okay. And you left together?

6 A

7 Q

8 A

9 Q

Yes.

Okay. Do you remember how long you were at the bar?

Until it closed.

Okay. You think you stayed until closing?

We always did.

Okay. And when would closing be?

2:00 o'clock.

206

10 A

11 Q

12 A

13 Q

14 A

15 Q

16 A

17 Q

18 A

19 Q

2:00 o'clock. Okay. And were you drinking that night?

Yes.

Okay. what did you have to drink that night?

I had four beers.

Okay. And was Linda drinking that night?

I would assume so.

Okay. Do you remember where you were seated that

20 evening?

21 A I can't remember where we seated that particular

22 evening. I know that we always sat at the back side of the

23 bar. There were like two booths on each side, and we always

24 tried to sit there, close to the dance floor, by where the

25 band was.


1 with someone?

2 A No, I went with Linda Westervoorde.

3 Q Okay. And did you arrive together?

4 A Yes.

5 Q Okay. And you left together?

6 A

7 Q

8 A

9 Q

Yes.

Okay. Do you remember how long you were at the bar?

Until it closed.

Okay. You think you stayed until closing?

We always did.

Okay. And when would closing be?

2:00 o'clock.

206

10 A

11 Q

12 A

13 Q

14 A

15 Q

16 A

17 Q

18 A

19 Q

2:00 o'clock. Okay. And were you drinking that night?

Yes.

Okay. what did you have to drink that night?

I had four beers.

Okay. And was Linda drinking that night?

I would assume so.

Okay. Do you remember where you were seated that

20 evening?

21 A I can't remember where we seated that particular

22 evening. I know that we always sat at the back side of the

23 bar. There were like two booths on each side, and we always

24 tried to sit there, close to the dance floor, by where the

25 band was.


1 Q Okay. So, if I were to come in the front door of the

2 bar, would I go to the left, turn to the left, to go past

3 the booth you sat in, or would I go to the right?

4 A You would only pass the booths if you were going to

5 restroom or you were going to the dance floor.

6 Q Okay. And how long had you been at the bar when you

7 noticed the three men?

8 A I honestly don't remember how long we had been at the

9 bar. I would say, because it was kind of like around 9:00

10 or 10:00, between that time frame, that they came in, and

11 then they came back.

Okay. So you saw the men come into the bar twice?

Right.

207

12 Q

13 A

14 Q Okay. So when was the first time you noticed them that

15 evening? About what time was it?

16 A It was between 9:00 and 10:00.

17 Q Okay. And how long did they stay in the bar?

18 A Long enough to have one drink and leave.

19 Q Okay. So they had one drink and left, and then how

20 long after before you saw them again?

21 A I believe it was after midnight but before 1:00 o'clock

22 they came back and did the same thing, had one drink and

23 left.

24 Q Now, when they came in the first time, did you see them

25 actually walking into the bar?


1 Q Okay. So, if I were to come in the front door of the

2 bar, would I go to the left, turn to the left, to go past

3 the booth you sat in, or would I go to the right?

4 A You would only pass the booths if you were going to

5 restroom or you were going to the dance floor.

6 Q Okay. And how long had you been at the bar when you

7 noticed the three men?

8 A I honestly don't remember how long we had been at the

9 bar. I would say, because it was kind of like around 9:00

10 or 10:00, between that time frame, that they came in, and

11 then they came back.

Okay. So you saw the men come into the bar twice?

Right.

207

12 Q

13 A

14 Q Okay. So when was the first time you noticed them that

15 evening? About what time was it?

16 A It was between 9:00 and 10:00.

17 Q Okay. And how long did they stay in the bar?

18 A Long enough to have one drink and leave.

19 Q Okay. So they had one drink and left, and then how

20 long after before you saw them again?

21 A I believe it was after midnight but before 1:00 o'clock

22 they came back and did the same thing, had one drink and

23 left.

24 Q Now, when they came in the first time, did you see them

25 actually walking into the bar?


208

1 A I think so.

2 Q Do you recall what door they came in?

3 A They came in the front door.

4 Q Okay. And when they left, did they go out the front

5 door?

6 A Yes, they did.

7 Q Okay. The second time they came in, did you see them


Yes. They came in the front door. 9 A

10 Q Okay. And approximately how long were they in the bar

11 the second time, if you know?

12 A The same, maybe 30 minutes. They have one drink and

13 leave.

14 Q Okay. So they were served one drink --

15 A Yes.

16 Q -- and then they left? Were they wearing the same

17 clothing when they came in the second time?

Yes, they were. 18 A

19 Q Did you notice anything different about the men when

20 they came in the second time?

21 A Not at all.

22 Q Did you notice any mud on their shoes?

23 A No.

24 Q Did you notice any dirt on their clothing?

25 A No.


208

1 A I think so.

2 Q Do you recall what door they came in?

3 A They came in the front door.

4 Q Okay. And when they left, did they go out the front

5 door?

6 A Yes, they did.

7 Q Okay. The second time they came in, did you see them


Yes. They came in the front door. 9 A

10 Q Okay. And approximately how long were they in the bar

11 the second time, if you know?

12 A The same, maybe 30 minutes. They have one drink and

13 leave.

14 Q Okay. So they were served one drink --

15 A Yes.

16 Q -- and then they left? Were they wearing the same

17 clothing when they came in the second time?

Yes, they were. 18 A

19 Q Did you notice anything different about the men when

20 they came in the second time?

21 A Not at all.

22 Q Did you notice any mud on their shoes?

23 A No.

24 Q Did you notice any dirt on their clothing?

25 A No.


1 Q Did you notice any stains on their clothing?

2 A No.

3 Q Did you see any blood on the men?

4 A

5 Q

6 A

7 Q

8 A

9 Q

10 A

11 Q

No.

Did you see any blood on their clothing?

No.

Did you see blood on anyone that night in the bar?

No.

Were the men being loud?

No.

Did you ever see a police officer come into the bar

12 that night?

13 A Not at all.

14 Q

15 A

16 Q

17 A

18 Q

Did you see any police officers around the bar?

No.

Do you remember what color the men's hair was?

No.

Do you recall where they were seated when they had

19 their drink?

20 A The way the bar was set up from the door, you walked

209

21 along the booths, between the booths and the bar, and there

22 were tables, and they were sitting at a table between the

23 booths and the bar, before the dance floor.

24 Q Okay. Now, was that where they were seated the first

25 time they came in for a drink?


1 Q Did you notice any stains on their clothing?

2 A No.

3 Q Did you see any blood on the men?

4 A

5 Q

6 A

7 Q

8 A

9 Q

10 A

11 Q

No.

Did you see any blood on their clothing?

No.

Did you see blood on anyone that night in the bar?

No.

Were the men being loud?

No.

Did you ever see a police officer come into the bar

12 that night?

13 A Not at all.

14 Q

15 A

16 Q

17 A

18 Q

Did you see any police officers around the bar?

No.

Do you remember what color the men's hair was?

No.

Do you recall where they were seated when they had

19 their drink?

20 A The way the bar was set up from the door, you walked

209

21 along the booths, between the booths and the bar, and there

22 were tables, and they were sitting at a table between the

23 booths and the bar, before the dance floor.

24 Q Okay. Now, was that where they were seated the first

25 time they came in for a drink?


210

1 A Yes.

2 Q Okay. And when they came in the second time, where did

3 they go?


5 Q Okay. So you don't know where they were seated the

6 second time?

7 A No.

8 Q Okay. Now, did you speak to anyone from law

9 enforcement about what you saw at the bar that night?

10 A Yes, I did.

11 Q Okay. And when did you do that?

12 A

13 Q

14 A

15 Q

The next morning.

Okay. You contacted someone the next morning?

Yes.

Okay. About what time the next morning?

16 A I don't remember what time.

17 Q Now, when did you learn about the murders?

18 A Linda called me the next morning and woke me up, and

19 told me about them.

20 Q

21 A

22 Q

Okay. So you woke up and found out about the murders?

Right.

Okay. Is it possible that was later in the day that

23 you were woken up?

24

25

MR. ALEXANDER: Objection, your Honor -



210

1 A Yes.

2 Q Okay. And when they came in the second time, where did

3 they go?


5 Q Okay. So you don't know where they were seated the

6 second time?

7 A No.

8 Q Okay. Now, did you speak to anyone from law

9 enforcement about what you saw at the bar that night?

10 A Yes, I did.

11 Q Okay. And when did you do that?

12 A

13 Q

14 A

15 Q

The next morning.

Okay. You contacted someone the next morning?

Yes.

Okay. About what time the next morning?

16 A I don't remember what time.

17 Q Now, when did you learn about the murders?

18 A Linda called me the next morning and woke me up, and

19 told me about them.

20 Q

21 A

22 Q

Okay. So you woke up and found out about the murders?

Right.

Okay. Is it possible that was later in the day that

23 you were woken up?

24

25

MR. ALEXANDER: Objection, your Honor -



1 MR. ALEXANDER: -- hypothetical.

2 possible?" Anything is possible.

3

4


THE WITNESS: Sure, it's possible.

5 BY MS. WILKENS:

"Is it

6 Q Okay. So you don't have a specific recollection?

7 A I have no time frame right now of that day.

8 Q Now, did you call the police?

211

9 A I don't remember. We discussed it, and decided that we

10 should report it.

11 Q

12 A

13 Q

14 call?

15 A

Okay. So you and Linda spoke about what you saw?

Right.

And there was an agreement that one of you was going to

Right, but I don't remember which one of us did

16 actually make the call.

17 Q Okay. But you did, in fact, get in touch with the

18 Sheriff's Department. Is that correct?

19 A We made a report.

20 Q Okay.

21 A They came out and questioned us.

22 Q And you spoke with a detective?

23 A Right.

24 Q Okay. And do you recall telling the detective anything

25 about the men being asked to leave the bar?


1 MR. ALEXANDER: -- hypothetical.

2 possible?" Anything is possible.

3

4


THE WITNESS: Sure, it's possible.

5 BY MS. WILKENS:

"Is it

6 Q Okay. So you don't have a specific recollection?

7 A I have no time frame right now of that day.

8 Q Now, did you call the police?

211

9 A I don't remember. We discussed it, and decided that we

10 should report it.

11 Q

12 A

13 Q

14 call?

15 A

Okay. So you and Linda spoke about what you saw?

Right.

And there was an agreement that one of you was going to

Right, but I don't remember which one of us did

16 actually make the call.

17 Q Okay. But you did, in fact, get in touch with the

18 Sheriff's Department. Is that correct?

19 A We made a report.

20 Q Okay.

21 A They came out and questioned us.

22 Q And you spoke with a detective?

23 A Right.

24 Q Okay. And do you recall telling the detective anything

25 about the men being asked to leave the bar?


212

1 A No.

2 Q Okay. Do you recall, sitting here today, whether or

3 not the men were intoxicated?

4 A As far as I could tell, they were not.

5 Q Okay. So your recollection is they were not

6 intoxicated?

7 A Right.


9 questions.

10

11

THE COURT: Cross?

CROSS EXAMINATION


13 Q Ms. Smith, I introduced myself to you in the hall,

14 David Alexander.

Right. 15 A

16 Q Thank you. What I'd like you to do is, you have in

17 front of you a white notebook, and the white notebook has

18 near the very end -- I think it's the next-to-last

19 exhibit -- a diagram of the inside of the bar, and I'm

20 wondering if you would be good enough to turn --

21 specifically, there may be more than one sheet under that.

22 I'm asking you to look at one that is a handwritten diagram

23 of the interior, basically the interior of the bar. Do you

24 have that one in front of you?

25 A This one (witness indicating)?


212

1 A No.

2 Q Okay. Do you recall, sitting here today, whether or

3 not the men were intoxicated?

4 A As far as I could tell, they were not.

5 Q Okay. So your recollection is they were not

6 intoxicated?

7 A Right.


9 questions.

10

11

THE COURT: Cross?

CROSS EXAMINATION


13 Q Ms. Smith, I introduced myself to you in the hall,

14 David Alexander.

Right. 15 A

16 Q Thank you. What I'd like you to do is, you have in

17 front of you a white notebook, and the white notebook has

18 near the very end -- I think it's the next-to-last

19 exhibit -- a diagram of the inside of the bar, and I'm

20 wondering if you would be good enough to turn --

21 specifically, there may be more than one sheet under that.

22 I'm asking you to look at one that is a handwritten diagram

23 of the interior, basically the interior of the bar. Do you

24 have that one in front of you?

25 A This one (witness indicating)?


213

1 Q No, that's TTT. It's the one just before that.

2 A Okay.

3 Q Let me help you out.

4 A Okay.

5 Q There you go. Tell me when you've had a chance just to

6 familiarize with it, please.

7 A Okay.

8 Q All right. Now, just so we're clear, the booth that

9 you indicated that you and Ms. Paulk, or Ms. Westervoorde at

10 the time, Paulk and then Westervoorde, were sitting in, as I

11 understand it, would be a booth along the left-hand wall,

12 correct, where there's no indication of booths? Is that

13 right?

14 A There's no indication of booths?

15 Q Yes.

16 A Yes. The booths we sat in, they're not on here.

17 Q Right. Okay. In fact, they'd be

18 A They were before the dance floor.

19 Q Okay. So the dance floor is actually a little farther

20 towards the back of the bar, correct, than it's shown here?

21 A Right.

22 Q Yes?

23 A Right.

24 Q All right.

25 A Yes.


213

1 Q No, that's TTT. It's the one just before that.

2 A Okay.

3 Q Let me help you out.

4 A Okay.

5 Q There you go. Tell me when you've had a chance just to

6 familiarize with it, please.

7 A Okay.

8 Q All right. Now, just so we're clear, the booth that

9 you indicated that you and Ms. Paulk, or Ms. Westervoorde at

10 the time, Paulk and then Westervoorde, were sitting in, as I

11 understand it, would be a booth along the left-hand wall,

12 correct, where there's no indication of booths? Is that

13 right?

14 A There's no indication of booths?

15 Q Yes.

16 A Yes. The booths we sat in, they're not on here.

17 Q Right. Okay. In fact, they'd be

18 A They were before the dance floor.

19 Q Okay. So the dance floor is actually a little farther

20 towards the back of the bar, correct, than it's shown here?

21 A Right.

22 Q Yes?

23 A Right.

24 Q All right.

25 A Yes.


214

1 Q And the bathrooms really go out a hallway, correct?

2 A That's correct.

3 Q All right. Not along the wall, as shown here. Is that

4 correct?

5 A That's correct.

6 Q All right. And there were then some booths along that

7 hallway, heading towards the hallway to the bathrooms and to

8 the dance floor, correct?

9 A The booths were sitting across from the booths that are

10 shown on the wall, on the left-hand side. They were sitting

11 in the middle, and there were four booths, one on each

12 side -- two on each side, and they were against the back

13 wall, where the bathroom line is.

14 Q All right. I'm going to approach so we can make the

15 record clear.

That's okay. 16 A

17 THE COURT: Why don't we make that SSS-2 or 3 or

18 whatever.

19 MR. ALEXANDER: Perfect.

20 THE COURT: We'll mark the new one, and she can

21 mark on that.

22 MR. ALEXANDER: Okay.

23 THE COURT: Not this one, but another one.

24 MR. ALEXANDER: Right. See if I have another

25 copy.


214

1 Q And the bathrooms really go out a hallway, correct?

2 A That's correct.

3 Q All right. Not along the wall, as shown here. Is that

4 correct?

5 A That's correct.

6 Q All right. And there were then some booths along that

7 hallway, heading towards the hallway to the bathrooms and to

8 the dance floor, correct?

9 A The booths were sitting across from the booths that are

10 shown on the wall, on the left-hand side. They were sitting

11 in the middle, and there were four booths, one on each

12 side -- two on each side, and they were against the back

13 wall, where the bathroom line is.

14 Q All right. I'm going to approach so we can make the

15 record clear.

That's okay. 16 A

17 THE COURT: Why don't we make that SSS-2 or 3 or

18 whatever.

19 MR. ALEXANDER: Perfect.

20 THE COURT: We'll mark the new one, and she can

21 mark on that.


23 THE COURT: Not this one, but another one.

24 MR. ALEXANDER: Right. See if I have another

25 copy.


1

2

215

THE COURT: And we should mark it with a sticker.

MR. ALEXANDER: Would your Honor be able to manage

3 with the other one as we use this as 888-2? I don't know if

4 I have another copy of that diagram.

5

6

7

THE COURT: You mean do I need another one?

MR. ALEXANDER: Yes.

THE COURT: No, I don't. I can use this one.

8 BY MR. ALEXANDER:

9 Q I'm going to, for the record, Ms. 8mith, put before you

10 what we've marked as 888-2, which is the same diagram as

11 888-1, diagram of the inside of the bar, but I'm going to

12 ask you now, with the use of the pen that you have to your

13 left, if you would be good enough to draw on this, even if

14 it means going over a line or something, where the booths

15 that you were referring to, one of which you sat in.

16 (Witness proffered document.)

17 A We were like this, and the two others that I mentioned

18 were here.

19 Q 80, for the record, you have -- just at the bottom of

20 where it's shown "Bathrooms" here, you have booths?

21 A Right.

22 Q And were they adjacent to one another?

23 A Right. Both booths were connected.

24 Q There are four booths?

25 A Right.


1

2

215

THE COURT: And we should mark it with a sticker.

MR. ALEXANDER: Would your Honor be able to manage

3 with the other one as we use this as 888-2? I don't know if

4 I have another copy of that diagram.

5

6

7

THE COURT: You mean do I need another one?

MR. ALEXANDER: Yes.

THE COURT: No, I don't. I can use this one.

8 BY MR. ALEXANDER:

9 Q I'm going to, for the record, Ms. 8mith, put before you

10 what we've marked as 888-2, which is the same diagram as

11 888-1, diagram of the inside of the bar, but I'm going to

12 ask you now, with the use of the pen that you have to your

13 left, if you would be good enough to draw on this, even if

14 it means going over a line or something, where the booths

15 that you were referring to, one of which you sat in.


17 A We were like this, and the two others that I mentioned

18 were here.

19 Q 80, for the record, you have -- just at the bottom of

20 where it's shown "Bathrooms" here, you have booths?

21 A Right.

22 Q And were they adjacent to one another?

23 A Right. Both booths were connected.

24 Q There are four booths?

25 A Right.


1 Q I see.

2 A There's two on each side.

3 Q All right. And of the four, I'm going to mark there

4 one, two, three, four, in those four booths. If you would

5 indicate to me which of the four booths you and Mr. Paulk,

6 or Ms. Westervoorde, were sitting in, if you recall?

216

7 A Okay. I don't recall, but we normally sat in booth one

8 or two, because the band played in the back corner by the

9 back door, and the young lady that used to play we knew, or

10 Linda knew, and we used to sit by to see her, watch her.

11 Q Do you recall her name, the woman who used to play?

12 A Her name is Jeannie - -

13 Q Jeannie?

14 A but I don't remember her last name at all.

15 Q Do you know where Jeannie is today? I don't mean

16 literally today, but where she might be found?

17 A I just found out that she married John, and I think

18 Linda said they were living in Idaho. Personally, no, I

19 don't know.

20 Q

21 A

22 Q

23 A

24 Q

25 A

Who is John?

John was our neighbor who lived two doors down.

Do you remember John's last name?

No.

All right.

I'm sorry.


1 Q I see.

2 A There's two on each side.

3 Q All right. And of the four, I'm going to mark there

4 one, two, three, four, in those four booths. If you would

5 indicate to me which of the four booths you and Mr. Paulk,

6 or Ms. Westervoorde, were sitting in, if you recall?

216

7 A Okay. I don't recall, but we normally sat in booth one

8 or two, because the band played in the back corner by the

9 back door, and the young lady that used to play we knew, or

10 Linda knew, and we used to sit by to see her, watch her.

11 Q Do you recall her name, the woman who used to play?

12 A Her name is Jeannie - -

13 Q Jeannie?

14 A but I don't remember her last name at all.

15 Q Do you know where Jeannie is today? I don't mean

16 literally today, but where she might be found?

17 A I just found out that she married John, and I think

18 Linda said they were living in Idaho. Personally, no, I

19 don't know.

20 Q

21 A

22 Q

23 A

24 Q

25 A

Who is John?

John was our neighbor who lived two doors down.

Do you remember John's last name?

No.

All right.

I'm sorry.


",

217

1 Q We'll look for John in Idaho.

2 THE COURT: John in Chino.

3 BY MR. ALEXANDER:

4 Q All right. Now, I believe you told Ms. Wilkens that

5 the men entered through the front door?

6 A That's correct.

7 Q All right. How close did they get to you at any time?

8 A Well, just as close as the dance floor to their table.

9 Q I see. Is this the first time you say you saw them?

10 A

11 Q

12 A

13 Q

It's the first time, and they were sitting

I'm going to put a five and a six on the table.

Okay.

All right. Do you recall which table it is they sat in

14 the first time?

15 A

16 Q

17 A

18 Q

19 the

20 A

21 Q

22 A

23 Q

24 a

At five.

At five?

Right.

All right. And so they weren't

distance from booth two

No.

What I said is correct?

That's correct.

to booth

any closer to you than

five, correct?

All right. Now, you mentioned that one of the men had

I'll leave that with you -- a slogan on his shirt of

25 some sort?


",

217

1 Q We'll look for John in Idaho.

2 THE COURT: John in Chino.

3 BY MR. ALEXANDER:

4 Q All right. Now, I believe you told Ms. Wilkens that

5 the men entered through the front door?

6 A That's correct.

7 Q All right. How close did they get to you at any time?

8 A Well, just as close as the dance floor to their table.

9 Q I see. Is this the first time you say you saw them?

10 A

11 Q

12 A

13 Q

It's the first time, and they were sitting

I'm going to put a five and a six on the table.

Okay.

All right. Do you recall which table it is they sat in

14 the first time?

15 A

16 Q

17 A

18 Q

19 the

20 A

21 Q

22 A

23 Q

24 a

At five.

At five?

Right.

All right. And so they weren't

distance from booth two

No.

What I said is correct?

That's correct.

to booth

any closer to you than

five, correct?

All right. Now, you mentioned that one of the men had

I'll leave that with you -- a slogan on his shirt of

25 some sort?


218

1 A He had something that I remember made him out of place.

2 Q All right. Because it didn't have a country/western

3 theme to it?

4 A Well, no, but I can't remember exactly what it was.

5 But, in my mind, I'm thinking, well, it was heavy metal. It

6 must have been a heavy metal band, and I didn't listen to

7 heavy metal. So it must have been someone I knew, like Led

8 Zeppelin or someone like that, because I didn't listen to

9 it.

10 Q And was this slogan that you saw on the front of the

11 shirt or the back?

12 A

13 Q

It was on the back.

It was on the back. All right. Now, at the time the

14 men came in well, what is your recollection of the time

15 that the men came in, the first time they came in?

16 A I believe it was between 9:00 and 10:00.

17 Q Between 9:00 and 10:00?

18 A Right.

19 Q Do you recall Ms. Smith being interviewed by a

20 gentleman who is an investigator on behalf of the defendant,

21 Kevin Cooper?

22 MS. WILKENS: Objection, lack of foundation.

23

24

25 //

THE COURT: Overruled. If you know.

THE WITNESS: When?


218

1 A He had something that I remember made him out of place.

2 Q All right. Because it didn't have a country/western

3 theme to it?

4 A Well, no, but I can't remember exactly what it was.

5 But, in my mind, I'm thinking, well, it was heavy metal. It

6 must have been a heavy metal band, and I didn't listen to

7 heavy metal. So it must have been someone I knew, like Led

8 Zeppelin or someone like that, because I didn't listen to

9 it.

10 Q And was this slogan that you saw on the front of the

11 shirt or the back?

12 A

13 Q

It was on the back.

It was on the back. All right. Now, at the time the

14 men came in well, what is your recollection of the time

15 that the men came in, the first time they came in?

16 A I believe it was between 9:00 and 10:00.

17 Q Between 9:00 and 10:00?

18 A Right.

19 Q Do you recall Ms. Smith being interviewed by a

20 gentleman who is an investigator on behalf of the defendant,

21 Kevin Cooper?

22 MS. WILKENS: Objection, lack of foundation.

23

24

25 //

THE COURT: Overruled. If you know.

THE WITNESS: When?


1 BY MR. ALEXANDER:

2 Q Sometime in 1984 t about a year after the event.

3 A The only thing I remember is talking to the homicide

4 detective the next daYt and then t maybe about six months

5 later t someone knocked on my door t and I thought it was

6 Linda t and I said t "Come on in t " and he said t "Not I dontt

7 think you want me to." And then t when I went to the door t

219

8 he told me that I might be called for the defense t for Kevin

9 Coopert because they never found those three men.

10 Q And were you in fact called by the defense at trial?

NOt I wasntt. 11 A

12 Q And you recall t do you not t that t in your exchange with

13 the gentleman who camet it was a rather heated exchange

14 about whether or not you would be willing to come and

15 testify at the trial?

16 A No.

17 Q You dontt remember that at all?

18 A No.

19 Q Do you remember telling the gentleman that interviewed

20 you that your job at the time was more important than Kevin

21 Cooperts life?

22 A

23 Q

24 A

25 Q

No.

Does that sound familiar?

No.

There was nothing like that?


1 BY MR. ALEXANDER:

2 Q Sometime in 1984 t about a year after the event.

3 A The only thing I remember is talking to the homicide

4 detective the next daYt and then t maybe about six months

5 later t someone knocked on my door t and I thought it was

6 Linda t and I said t "Come on in t " and he said t "Not I dontt

7 think you want me to." And then t when I went to the door t

219

8 he told me that I might be called for the defense t for Kevin

9 Coopert because they never found those three men.

10 Q And were you in fact called by the defense at trial?

NOt I wasntt. 11 A

12 Q And you recall t do you not t that t in your exchange with

13 the gentleman who camet it was a rather heated exchange

14 about whether or not you would be willing to come and

15 testify at the trial?

16 A No.

17 Q You dontt remember that at all?

18 A No.

19 Q Do you remember telling the gentleman that interviewed

20 you that your job at the time was more important than Kevin

21 Cooperts life?

22 A

23 Q

24 A

25 Q

No.

Does that sound familiar?

No.

There was nothing like that?


220

1 A No.

2 Q All right. Approximately what time did the three men

3 come in the second time that evening?

4 A I want to say it was like between midnight and

5 1:00 o'clock.

6 Q Between midnight and 1:00 o'clock?

7 A Right.

8 MR. ALEXANDER: All right. Excuse me, your Honor.

9 Can you mark for identification as Exhibit 22 a copy of

10 interview of Pam Smith by Ron Forbusch (phonetic)?


12 Q Ms. Smith, I'm going to provide you with a copy of what

13 we've marked as Petitioner's Exhibit 22, which 1'11

14 represent is a transcription of an interview that was done

15 on May 12th, 1984, at your residence, by a Mr. Ron Forbusch.

16 I'm going to ask you some specific questions, and 1'11

17 focus you, but you're welcome to review it, and while you're

18 reviewing it, keep this question in mind. Is this a

19 document, a transcription, to the best of your knowledge, of

20 the interview that you thought occurred about six months

21 after the detective interviewed you after the bar?


23 A

24 Q

25 A

No.

Do you recall --

I don't recall this at all.


220

1 A No.

2 Q All right. Approximately what time did the three men

3 come in the second time that evening?

4 A I want to say it was like between midnight and

5 1:00 o'clock.

6 Q Between midnight and 1:00 o'clock?

7 A Right.

8 MR. ALEXANDER: All right. Excuse me, your Honor.

9 Can you mark for identification as Exhibit 22 a copy of

10 interview of Pam Smith by Ron Forbusch (phonetic)?


12 Q Ms. Smith, I'm going to provide you with a copy of what

13 we've marked as Petitioner's Exhibit 22, which 1'11

14 represent is a transcription of an interview that was done

15 on May 12th, 1984, at your residence, by a Mr. Ron Forbusch.

16 I'm going to ask you some specific questions, and 1'11

17 focus you, but you're welcome to review it, and while you're

18 reviewing it, keep this question in mind. Is this a

19 document, a transcription, to the best of your knowledge, of

20 the interview that you thought occurred about six months

21 after the detective interviewed you after the bar?


23 A

24 Q

25 A

No.

Do you recall --

I don't recall this at all.


1 Q You have no recollection of this whatsoever?

2 A Huh-uh.

3 Q Was your address at the time 3951 Poplar in Chino?

4 A Yes, it was.

5 Q And was that your phone number, 597-1214?

6 A Yes. It's still, currently.

7 Q Excuse me?

8 A It's still current.

9 Q Both of those are still current?

10 A Right.

11 Q Okay. And was your work phone at the time

12 (213) 254-5184?

13 A

14 Q

15 A

I don't remember.

Where did you work in May of 1984, Ms. Smith?

I worked for Home Savings, but I worked in several

221

16 locations, and I can't remember where that phone number is.

17 Q All right. Now, if you would direct your attention to

18 what's marked as page four at the top of this interview,

19 dropping down to the -- it's actually the fourth question.

20 It says:

21

22

23

24

25

"Q Okay. Now, on the occasion that you're

referring to that you saw them, what time do you

think it was that you first saw them?

was about 11:00?

A It was about 11:00."

You said it


1 Q You have no recollection of this whatsoever?

2 A Huh-uh.

3 Q Was your address at the time 3951 Poplar in Chino?

4 A Yes, it was.

5 Q And was that your phone number, 597-1214?

6 A Yes. It's still, currently.

7 Q Excuse me?

8 A It's still current.

9 Q Both of those are still current?

10 A Right.

11 Q Okay. And was your work phone at the time

12 (213) 254-5184?

13 A

14 Q

15 A

I don't remember.

Where did you work in May of 1984, Ms. Smith?

I worked for Home Savings, but I worked in several

221

16 locations, and I can't remember where that phone number is.

17 Q All right. Now, if you would direct your attention to

18 what's marked as page four at the top of this interview,

19 dropping down to the -- it's actually the fourth question.

20 It says:

21

22

23

24

25

"Q Okay. Now, on the occasion that you're

referring to that you saw them, what time do you

think it was that you first saw them?

was about 11:00?

A It was about 11:00."

You said it


222

1 Does that now refresh your recollection that the first

2 time you saw the men come in was at 11:00 o'clock at night?

3 A I don't really know what time it was.

4 Q All right. But if you made that statement at that time

5 to Mr. Forbusch, you would have been telling him the truth?

6 A If I did, yes.

7 Q All right. And then he goes on to ask you:

8

9

10

11 A

12 Q

13 A

14 Q

"Q And can you tell me where they sat?

A Yes. They sat at the table at the end."

That's what you just described to me, correct?

Correct.

Table number five, I think we marked on 888-2, correct?

Correct.

All right. And that was the row -- there's a row of

15 double booths you indicated, and then the table that you

16 described to me, correct?

17 A Right.

18 Q All right. Now, let me, for the moment, direct your

19 attention to page 10, and specifically if you'd move down to

20 the middle of the page. In fact, you're welcome to go back

21 to the prior page, if you'd like, at the bottom of the prior

22 page, and then reading on. Does this refresh your

23 recollection that you had a conversation with Mr. Forbusch

24 about your willingness to appear at the trial of the matter

25 or at a hearing in the matter?


222

1 Does that now refresh your recollection that the first

2 time you saw the men come in was at 11:00 o'clock at night?

3 A I don't really know what time it was.

4 Q All right. But if you made that statement at that time

5 to Mr. Forbusch, you would have been telling him the truth?

6 A If I did, yes.

7 Q All right. And then he goes on to ask you:

8

9

10

11 A

12 Q

13 A

14 Q

"Q And can you tell me where they sat?

A Yes. They sat at the table at the end."

That's what you just described to me, correct?

Correct.

Table number five, I think we marked on 888-2, correct?

Correct.

All right. And that was the row -- there's a row of

15 double booths you indicated, and then the table that you

16 described to me, correct?

17 A Right.

18 Q All right. Now, let me, for the moment, direct your

19 attention to page 10, and specifically if you'd move down to

20 the middle of the page. In fact, you're welcome to go back

21 to the prior page, if you'd like, at the bottom of the prior

22 page, and then reading on. Does this refresh your

23 recollection that you had a conversation with Mr. Forbusch

24 about your willingness to appear at the trial of the matter

25 or at a hearing in the matter?


223

1 A I don't remember any of this.

2 Q All right. Just specifically now, when you look down

3 to the middle of the page:

4

5

6

7

"A Like I say, my -- you know, my position in

my job is much more important than --

Q

A

Of course.

Kevin Cooper's life. I'm sorry."

8 Do you remember now saying that?

9 A No, I don't.

Okay. Do you deny that I said that?

No, I don't.

10 Q

11 A

12 Q Okay. You don't deny that you said any of the things

13 in this transcript, correct?

14 A I can't. The only thing I can tell you is I don't

15 remember this interview.

16 Q All right. Let me go back to the interview that you

17 thought occurred six months after you were first interviewed

18 by a detective. Okay? Remember that interview, or somebody

19 coming to your house and knocking on the door, and you

20 thought it was Ms. Paulk, Ms. Westervoorde?

21 A Right.

22 Q And the gentleman said, "No, I don't think I should

23 come in"?

24 A Right.

25 Q Okay. Now, do you know who that individual was at that


223

1 A I don't remember any of this.

2 Q All right. Just specifically now, when you look down

3 to the middle of the page:

4

5

6

7

"A Like I say, my -- you know, my position in

my job is much more important than --

Q

A

Of course.

Kevin Cooper's life. I'm sorry."

8 Do you remember now saying that?

9 A No, I don't.

Okay. Do you deny that I said that?

No, I don't.

10 Q

11 A

12 Q Okay. You don't deny that you said any of the things

13 in this transcript, correct?

14 A I can't. The only thing I can tell you is I don't

15 remember this interview.

16 Q All right. Let me go back to the interview that you

17 thought occurred six months after you were first interviewed

18 by a detective. Okay? Remember that interview, or somebody

19 coming to your house and knocking on the door, and you

20 thought it was Ms. Paulk, Ms. Westervoorde?

21 A Right.

22 Q And the gentleman said, "No, I don't think I should

23 come in"?

24 A Right.

25 Q Okay. Now, do you know who that individual was at that


224

1 time?

2 A I'm going to say it was a homicide detective, but I'm

3 not positive.

4 Q Okay. Another person from law enforcement is your best

5 recollection?

6 A Right.

7 Q All right. Do you happen to recall the gentleman's

8 name?

9 A Not at all.

All right. Well, directing your attention --10 Q

11 MR. ALEXANDER: Excuse me, your Honor. I lost my

12 thought, here.


14 Q Well, let me go to, if I might, to the interview with

15 the detective shortly after the night of the crimes. I

16 believe you have in front of you there -- you should have a

17 copy of -- I believe it's Exhibit 22.

18 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: 21.


20 Q 21, I'm sorry, which is a police report. Do you have

21 the document?

22 A Yes, I do.

23 Q Okay. If you'd be good enough to take a moment just to

24 familiarize yourself with it. Now, does this refresh your

25 recollection about the interview that you -- well, let me


224

1 time?

2 A I'm going to say it was a homicide detective, but I'm

3 not positive.

4 Q Okay. Another person from law enforcement is your best

5 recollection?

6 A Right.

7 Q All right. Do you happen to recall the gentleman's

8 name?

9 A Not at all.

All right. Well, directing your attention --10 Q

11 MR. ALEXANDER: Excuse me, your Honor. I lost my

12 thought, here.


14 Q Well, let me go to, if I might, to the interview with

15 the detective shortly after the night of the crimes. I

16 believe you have in front of you there -- you should have a

17 copy of -- I believe it's Exhibit 22.

18 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: 21.


20 Q 21, I'm sorry, which is a police report. Do you have

21 the document?

22 A Yes, I do.

23 Q Okay. If you'd be good enough to take a moment just to

24 familiarize yourself with it. Now, does this refresh your

25 recollection about the interview that you -- well, let me


1 ask you this. Do you have a recollection about what

2 occurred during that interview by the detective shortly

3 after the crimes were discovered, independent of this

4 document?

5 A Do I have a - -

6 Q Recollection.

7 A I remember talking to them. That's all I remember.

8 Q All right. So you don't remember what was said?

9 A No, I don't.

10 Q All right. Now, having read this document, does this

225

11 refresh your recollection as to what you, the detective, and

12 Ms. Westervoorde, Linda, discussed?

13 A Well, I know that's what we were talking about, was

14 these three guys.

15 Q

16 A

17 Q

These issues?

Right.

All right. Now, direct your attention, if you would,

18 to the third or, I'm sorry, to the last paragraph, where

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

it says:


subjects, they appeared to be


the brown hair, as he had great




1 ask you this. Do you have a recollection about what

2 occurred during that interview by the detective shortly

3 after the crimes were discovered, independent of this

4 document?

5 A Do I have a - -

6 Q Recollection.

7 A I remember talking to them. That's all I remember.

8 Q All right. So you don't remember what was said?

9 A No, I don't.

10 Q All right. Now, having read this document, does this

225

11 refresh your recollection as to what you, the detective, and

12 Ms. Westervoorde, Linda, discussed?

13 A Well, I know that's what we were talking about, was

14 these three guys.

15 Q

16 A

17 Q

These issues?

Right.

All right. Now, direct your attention, if you would,

18 to the third or, I'm sorry, to the last paragraph, where

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

it says:


subjects, they appeared to be


the brown hair, as he had great




226

1 Do you see that?

2 A Yes, I see that.

3 Q All right. Is that information that you provided to

4 the detective, or did Ms. Westervoorde?

5 A I have no idea.

6 Q But that was an accurate observation of the demeanor of

7 the three men, or at least one of them, at the time?

8 A Must have been.

9 Q And you have no reason to believe that what you -- or

10 withdraw that. Whatever you told the detective was the

11 truth, as best you could recall it, on that date of June the

12 6th, correct?

13 A I wouldn't have lied.

14 Q Sure. And you would agree, would you not, that your

15 recollection of the events on June the 6th, within a day or

16 two after you were at the bar and the night that the crimes

17 were committed, is far better than your recollection today?

18 A Way, way better.

19 Q And, indeed, your recollection in May of 1984 was far

20 better than your recollection today?

21 A Absolutely.

22 Q Okay. Now, since you indicated that the men came in

23 the first time at 11:00 o'clock, at least you don't disagree

24 with having said that, do you now have a recollection of

25 when they came in for the second time?


226

1 Do you see that?

2 A Yes, I see that.

3 Q All right. Is that information that you provided to

4 the detective, or did Ms. Westervoorde?

5 A I have no idea.

6 Q But that was an accurate observation of the demeanor of

7 the three men, or at least one of them, at the time?

8 A Must have been.

9 Q And you have no reason to believe that what you -- or

10 withdraw that. Whatever you told the detective was the

11 truth, as best you could recall it, on that date of June the

12 6th, correct?

13 A I wouldn't have lied.

14 Q Sure. And you would agree, would you not, that your

15 recollection of the events on June the 6th, within a day or

16 two after you were at the bar and the night that the crimes

17 were committed, is far better than your recollection today?

18 A Way, way better.

19 Q And, indeed, your recollection in May of 1984 was far

20 better than your recollection today?

21 A Absolutely.

22 Q Okay. Now, since you indicated that the men came in

23 the first time at 11:00 o'clock, at least you don't disagree

24 with having said that, do you now have a recollection of

25 when they came in for the second time?


227

1 A No.

2 Q All right. NOW, it's true, is it not, Ms. Smith, and

3 it was 20-some-odd years ago, but that night at the bar, you

4 were close to being drunk, correct?

5 A I only had four beers, but probably.

6 Q That would be enough to do it?

7 A At that time, I could only spend five dollars on that

8 particular night, and it was enough to buy four beers with

9 no tip.

10 Q But my question to you is, having had four beers, you


12 A

13 Q

I would assume so, yes.

All right. Do you remember, at the time the gentlemen

14 came in, the three men -- excuse my reference -- the

15 gentlemen, the three men, came in, was the bar dark or dim-

16 lit?

17 A The bar was always kind of dimly lit, but it wasn't

18 dark, you know, but it wasn't real dim, either.

19 wasn't like daylight. It wasn't like this room.

So it

20 Q All right. Do you recall whether there was a practice

21 at the bar of dimming the lights when the band started to

22 play?

23 A

24 Q

25 A

No. There might have been, but I don't remember.

You don't recall one way or the other?

Huh-uh.


227

1 A No.

2 Q All right. NOW, it's true, is it not, Ms. Smith, and

3 it was 20-some-odd years ago, but that night at the bar, you


5 A I only had four beers, but probably.

6 Q That would be enough to do it?

7 A At that time, I could only spend five dollars on that

8 particular night, and it was enough to buy four beers with

9 no tip.

10 Q But my question to you is, having had four beers, you


12 A

13 Q

I would assume so, yes.

All right. Do you remember, at the time the gentlemen

14 came in, the three men -- excuse my reference -- the

15 gentlemen, the three men, came in, was the bar dark or dim-

16 lit?

17 A The bar was always kind of dimly lit, but it wasn't

18 dark, you know, but it wasn't real dim, either.

19 wasn't like daylight. It wasn't like this room.

So it

20 Q All right. Do you recall whether there was a practice

21 at the bar of dimming the lights when the band started to

22 play?

23 A

24 Q

25 A

No. There might have been, but I don't remember.

You don't recall one way or the other?

Huh-uh.


1 Q And when they stopped having food service, do you

2 recall whether or not they dimmed the lights in the bar

3 another time, a second time? Does that sound familiar to

4 you?


6 Q Do you recall how crowded the bar was around

7 11:00 o'clock or 11:30 on that night?

8 A No, I don't.

228

9 Q Was it your experience on Saturday nights that the bar

10 would be quite crowded?

11 A

12 Q

It would get crowded later.

Sorry?

13 A Sometimes it got real crowded later in the evening,

14 after, you know -- I don't remember being there much before

15 8:00 o'clock, ever, but it doesn't mean I didn't. I just

16 don't remember. But I don't remember them dimming the

17 lights at any particular time, no.

18 Q

19 A

20 Q

21 A

22 Q

I was talking about how crowded the bar was -

I'm sorry.

-- on this Saturday night.'

I don't remember how crowded it was.

Well, was your experience that on Saturday nights,

23 late, 11:00 o'clock or so, the bar would be quite crowded?

24 A

25 Q

Sometimes, but not always.

All right. And you don't have a specific recollection


1 Q And when they stopped having food service, do you

2 recall whether or not they dimmed the lights in the bar

3 another time, a second time? Does that sound familiar to

4 you?


6 Q Do you recall how crowded the bar was around

7 11:00 o'clock or 11:30 on that night?

8 A No, I don't.

228

9 Q Was it your experience on Saturday nights that the bar

10 would be quite crowded?

11 A

12 Q

It would get crowded later.

Sorry?

13 A Sometimes it got real crowded later in the evening,

14 after, you know -- I don't remember being there much before

15 8:00 o'clock, ever, but it doesn't mean I didn't. I just

16 don't remember. But I don't remember them dimming the

17 lights at any particular time, no.

18 Q

19 A

20 Q

21 A

22 Q

I was talking about how crowded the bar was -

I'm sorry.

-- on this Saturday night.'

I don't remember how crowded it was.

Well, was your experience that on Saturday nights,

23 late, 11:00 o'clock or so, the bar would be quite crowded?

24 A

25 Q

Sometimes, but not always.

All right. And you don't have a specific recollection


229

1 that evening as to how crowded it was?

2 A No, I don't.

3 Q And with the band playing, was the bar noisy?

4 A It was a one-girl band. No. It wasn't real noisy.

5 Q You mean it was just one person in the band, or did she

6 have backup?

7 A She might have had a couple people playing, but it

8 wasn't like a big band. It was just this little, tiny band

9 that we danced to. It wasn't noisy. It wasn't

10 overbearingly loud like some clubs you go in, but, you know,

11 it was louder than if she wasn't playing.

12 Q It would certainly be louder closer to the dance floor

13 where -- the booth you were sitting in than farther away,

14 correct?

15 A

16 Q

17 A

18

19

Yes.

All right.

That's correct.


It's just review my notes, your Honor. I think

20 that's all I have.


22 Q I know what I wanted to ask you. Did you, Ms. Smith,

23 observe the men leaving on either of the two occasions that

24 they were there?

25 A The first time I know I did. The second time I don't


229

1 that evening as to how crowded it was?

2 A No, I don't.

3 Q And with the band playing, was the bar noisy?

4 A It was a one-girl band. No. It wasn't real noisy.

5 Q You mean it was just one person in the band, or did she

6 have backup?

7 A She might have had a couple people playing, but it

8 wasn't like a big band. It was just this little, tiny band

9 that we danced to. It wasn't noisy. It wasn't

10 overbearingly loud like some clubs you go in, but, you know,

11 it was louder than if she wasn't playing.

12 Q It would certainly be louder closer to the dance floor

13 where -- the booth you were sitting in than farther away,

14 correct?

15 A

16 Q

17 A

18

19

Yes.

All right.

That's correct.


It's just review my notes, your Honor. I think

20 that's all I have.


22 Q I know what I wanted to ask you. Did you, Ms. Smith,

23 observe the men leaving on either of the two occasions that

24 they were there?

25 A The first time I know I did. The second time I don't


230

1 remember.

2 Q Now, direct your attention back to Exhibit 21.

3 A Okay.

4 Q And the last paragraph, the second line, towards the

5 end of that line, you observe:

6 "The subject with the brown hair, as he

7 had great difficulty in leaving the bar

8 without running into things."

9 Does that refresh your recollection that at least one

10 of the men appeared to be intoxicated because he was running

11 into things as he was trying to leave the bar?

12 A

13 Q

14 A

15 it.

16 Q

Does it refresh my -- no.

Okay.

However, if I stated it at the time, I truly believed

All right. Now, you knew at the time you gave this

17 interview that the detective was asking you questions

18 because of the crimes that had been discovered the prior

19 day, correct?

20 A Right. That's why we called.

21 Q Right. And that's why you wanted to make darn sure

22 that what you told him was the truth?

23 A Right.

24 Q And just directing your attention to the descriptions

25 on number one and number two in the middle of the page, are


230

1 remember.

2 Q Now, direct your attention back to Exhibit 21.

3 A Okay.

4 Q And the last paragraph, the second line, towards the

5 end of that line, you observe:

6 "The subject with the brown hair, as he

7 had great difficulty in leaving the bar

8 without running into things."

9 Does that refresh your recollection that at least one

10 of the men appeared to be intoxicated because he was running

11 into things as he was trying to leave the bar?

12 A

13 Q

14 A

15 it.

16 Q

Does it refresh my -- no.

Okay.

However, if I stated it at the time, I truly believed

All right. Now, you knew at the time you gave this

17 interview that the detective was asking you questions

18 because of the crimes that had been discovered the prior

19 day, correct?

20 A Right. That's why we called.

21 Q Right. And that's why you wanted to make darn sure

22 that what you told him was the truth?

23 A Right.

24 Q And just directing your attention to the descriptions

25 on number one and number two in the middle of the page, are


231

1 those two descriptions consistent with your recollection of

2 what two of the men looked like l how they appeared?

3 A Pretty much l I guess. You know I it/s -- I just

4 remember three guys at this point. I don/t remember them.

5 Q Okay.

6 A HonestlYI I don/t.

7 Q All right. SOl even looking at this l it doesn/t

8 refresh your recollection?

9 A Not really.

10 Q Okay. And independent of this l you don/t have a

11 recollection of what they looked like?

12 A No.

13 Q

14 A

15

All right. What I said is correct?

Correct.

MR. ALEXANDER: All right. Your Honor l I have no

16 further questions. I would offer into evidence Exhibit

17 21 --


19 MR. ALEXANDER: and 22.

20 THE COURT: And 22 is received.

21 MR. ALEXANDER: Thank you l your Honor.


23 MR. ALEXANDER: Thank you very much l Ms. Smith.


25 THE COURT: WeIll try to finish you up today.


231

1 those two descriptions consistent with your recollection of

2 what two of the men looked like l how they appeared?

3 A Pretty much l I guess. You know I it/s -- I just

4 remember three guys at this point. I don/t remember them.

5 Q Okay.

6 A HonestlYI I don/t.

7 Q All right. SOl even looking at this l it doesn/t

8 refresh your recollection?

9 A Not really.

10 Q Okay. And independent of this l you don/t have a

11 recollection of what they looked like?

12 A No.

13 Q

14 A

15

All right. What I said is correct?

Correct.

MR. ALEXANDER: All right. Your Honor l I have no

16 further questions. I would offer into evidence Exhibit

17 21 --


19 MR. ALEXANDER: and 22.

20 THE COURT: And 22 is received.

21 MR. ALEXANDER: Thank you l your Honor.


23 MR. ALEXANDER: Thank you very much l Ms. Smith.


25 THE COURT: WeIll try to finish you up today.


1 We've got one more set of questions.

2

3

THE WITNESS: Okay. I thought I was done.


4 BY MS. WILKENS:

5 Q Just real briefly, if I can invite your attention to

6 Exhibit 22.

7 A Okay.

8 Q And if you could turn to page four, and if I could

232

9 invite your attention to the third answer on the page, which

10 begins with "We were there." Could you read that answer,

11 please?

12 A "We were there"

13 Q To yourself.

14 A Okay. Thank you. Okay.

15 Q Now, does that refresh your recollection as to whether

16 or not you had firsthand knowledge of the first visit by the

17 three men to the bar?

18 MR. ALEXANDER:

19 it's vague and ambiguous.

20 or their first visit?

21 BY MS. WILKENS:

Objection, your Honor. I think

The first visit that she knew of

22 Q With respect to the three men coming to the bar

23 initially that night, does this refresh your recollection as

24 to whether or not you witnessed it or you heard about it?

25 A Okay. I witnessed it.


1 We've got one more set of questions.

2

3

THE WITNESS: Okay. I thought I was done.


4 BY MS. WILKENS:

5 Q Just real briefly, if I can invite your attention to

6 Exhibit 22.

7 A Okay.

8 Q And if you could turn to page four, and if I could

232

9 invite your attention to the third answer on the page, which

10 begins with "We were there." Could you read that answer,

11 please?

12 A "We were there"

13 Q To yourself.

14 A Okay. Thank you. Okay.

15 Q Now, does that refresh your recollection as to whether

16 or not you had firsthand knowledge of the first visit by the

17 three men to the bar?

18 MR. ALEXANDER:

19 it's vague and ambiguous.

20 or their first visit?

21 BY MS. WILKENS:

Objection, your Honor. I think

The first visit that she knew of

22 Q With respect to the three men coming to the bar

23 initially that night, does this refresh your recollection as

24 to whether or not you witnessed it or you heard about it?

25 A Okay. I witnessed it.


233

1 Q Okay.

2 A For mel it was the first time I had ever seen them.

3 Q Okay. But you personally witnessed them coming into

4 the bar twice that night. Is that correct?

5 A That/s correct.

6 Q Okay. So this statement would not be accurate?

7 A I don/t understand.

8 Q Are you telling - -

9 A Are you saying that l because this is only talking about

10 one of the visits l that it/s not accurate?

11 Q No. I noticed that you said that:

12 lIeame in l had a drinkl stayed for 45

13 minutes to an hourI and then leftl but

14 that had been before we got there. II

15 Up above I you/re saying you arrived at 8:30 and you

16 left at 2:30.

17 A No. We were there both times that they came in. I

18 don/t know -- this is the following weekI and we were

19 talking to other people. So I don/t know what I was

20 referring to at that time.

21 Q Okay. But you/re positive l sitting here todaYI that

22 you saw these men come to the bar on two occasions that

23 night?

24 A

25 Q

Absolutely.

Okay. Now l drawing your attention to the bottom of the


233

1 Q Okay.

2 A For mel it was the first time I had ever seen them.

3 Q Okay. But you personally witnessed them coming into

4 the bar twice that night. Is that correct?

5 A That/s correct.

6 Q Okay. So this statement would not be accurate?

7 A I don/t understand.

8 Q Are you telling - -

9 A Are you saying that l because this is only talking about

10 one of the visits l that it/s not accurate?

11 Q No. I noticed that you said that:

12 lIeame in l had a drinkl stayed for 45

13 minutes to an hourI and then leftl but

14 that had been before we got there. II

15 Up above I you/re saying you arrived at 8:30 and you

16 left at 2:30.

17 A No. We were there both times that they came in.

18 don/t know -- this is the following weekI and we were

19 talking to other people. So I don/t know what I was

20 referring to at that time.

I

21 Q Okay. But you/re positive l sitting here todaYI that

22 you saw these men come to the bar on two occasions that

23 night?

24 A

25 Q

Absolutely.

Okay. Now l drawing your attention to the bottom of the


234

1 pagel the second answer from the bottom of the page states l

2 "One of them had a black T-shirt on that said l IThe force is

3 wit (sic) you. I"

4 Maybe "with you"? Does that refresh your recollection

5 as to what you saw on the shirt?

6 A No.

7 Q Okay. Now l inviting your attention to page six i the

8 fourth question from the tOPI where you were asked whether

9 or not the men were acting drunk or seemed out of line l and

10 you answered nOI is that consistent with your recollection?

11 A That is.

12 Q Okay. Now l on page seven l the fourth answer l you state

13 that you know you were not drunk. Is that the best of your

14 recollection?

15 A

16 Q

17 A

18 Q

To the best of my recollection l I was not drunk.

How many hours did you spend inside the bar that night?

Probably five or six.

Okay. And so you had four beers. Did you have the

19 beers over the course of the evening?

Yes. 20 A

21 Q SOl if you only had five dollars to spend l you didn/t

22 spend it all at once?

23 A Right.

24 Q Now l with respect to the volume of the band l were you

25 able to converse while the band was playing? Could you talk


234

1 pagel the second answer from the bottom of the page states l

2 "One of them had a black T-shirt on that said l IThe force is

3 wit (sic) you. I"

4 Maybe "with you"? Does that refresh your recollection

5 as to what you saw on the shirt?

6 A No.

7 Q Okay. Now l inviting your attention to page six i the

8 fourth question from the tOPI where you were asked whether

9 or not the men were acting drunk or seemed out of line l and

10 you answered nOI is that consistent with your recollection?

11 A That is.

12 Q Okay. Now l on page seven l the fourth answer l you state

13 that you know you were not drunk. Is that the best of your

14 recollection?

15 A

16 Q

17 A

18 Q

To the best of my recollection l I was not drunk.

How many hours did you spend inside the bar that night?

Probably five or six.

Okay. And so you had four beers. Did you have the

19 beers over the course of the evening?

Yes. 20 A

21 Q SOl if you only had five dollars to spend l you didn/t

22 spend it all at once?

23 A Right.

24 Q Now l with respect to the volume of the band l were you

25 able to converse while the band was playing? Could you talk


235

1 to your friends?

2 A Yes.

3 Q Okay. Now, on page eight, towards the bottom of the

4 page, three Qs up from the bottom, it says, "Do you know

5 what day that was that you reported it?" And you answered,

6 "It was on a Monday." Does that refresh your recollection

7 as to when you contacted the sheriff following the murders?

8 A No.

9 Q Okay. Now, on page nine, at the bottom of the page,

10 the last Q up from the bottom of the page, it appears that

11 you're being told that your testimony may be necessary at a

12 hearing on Monday or Tuesday. Do you recall being told

13 about a court appearance with short notice?

14 A

15

I don't recall any of this interview.

MS. WILKENS: Okay. Your Honor, I have no further

16 questions.

17 MR. ALEXANDER: I have one, your Honor, with your

18 permission.

19

20

THE COURT: One question? Go ahead.

RECROSS EXAMINATION


22 Q You and Ms. Smith -- I'm sorry -- you and

23 Ms. Westervoorde decided that you should call the police or

24 the sheriff, correct?

25 A That's correct.


235

1 to your friends?

2 A Yes.

3 Q Okay. Now, on page eight, towards the bottom of the

4 page, three Qs up from the bottom, it says, "Do you know

5 what day that was that you reported it?" And you answered,

6 "It was on a Monday." Does that refresh your recollection

7 as to when you contacted the sheriff following the murders?

8 A No.

9 Q Okay. Now, on page nine, at the bottom of the page,

10 the last Q up from the bottom of the page, it appears that

11 you're being told that your testimony may be necessary at a

12 hearing on Monday or Tuesday. Do you recall being told

13 about a court appearance with short notice?

14 A

15

I don't recall any of this interview.

MS. WILKENS: Okay. Your Honor, I have no further

16 questions.

17 MR. ALEXANDER: I have one, your Honor, with your

18 permission.

19

20

THE COURT: One question? Go ahead.

RECROSS EXAMINATION


22 Q You and Ms. Smith -- I'm sorry -- you and

23 Ms. Westervoorde decided that you should call the police or

24 the sheriff, correct?

25 A That's correct.


1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

Q And

A One

Q Yes.

page 10,

236

you did so?

of us did, yes.

Okay. And if you would direct your attention to

about two-thirds of the way down, you said:

"A At this point, to me, he nobody I knew (sic)

that I would -- I mean, I honestly don't think one

person did it, whether it be him or someone else,

but I won't."

9 You were saying, "I won't come to trial," correct, or

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

to

A

Q

one

A

No

the hearing?

I don't remember.

All right. But your reference "I honestly don't

person did it" means "did the crimes, " correct?

If I said it at the time, it would have to be.

MR. ALEXANDER: All right. Thank you very

further questions.


MS. WILKENS: Nothing further, your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. You may step down.

Now, for tomorrow, we have what witnesses

think

much.

21 scheduled?


23 MS. WILKENS: We have one additional witness that

24 came today that would have to return tomorrow. So we have

25 Mr. Land (phonetic) here. So we'll have Mr. Land and then


1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

Q And

A One

Q Yes.

page 10,

236

you did so?

of us did, yes.

Okay. And if you would direct your attention to

about two-thirds of the way down, you said:

"A At this point, to me, he nobody I knew (sic)

that I would -- I mean, I honestly don't think one

person did it, whether it be him or someone else,

but I won't."

9 You were saying, "I won't come to trial," correct, or

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

to

A

Q

one

A

No

the hearing?

I don't remember.

All right. But your reference "I honestly don't

person did it" means "did the crimes, " correct?

If I said it at the time, it would have to be.

MR. ALEXANDER: All right. Thank you very

further questions.


MS. WILKENS: Nothing further, your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. You may step down.

Now, for tomorrow, we have what witnesses

think

much.

21 scheduled?


23 MS. WILKENS: We have one additional witness that

24 came today that would have to return tomorrow. So we have

25 Mr. Land (phonetic) here. So we'll have Mr. Land and then


~

237

1 Ms. Royals, Ms. Mansfield, Ms. Killian, and then a

2 representative from the Sheriff's Department with respect to

3 the call log.

4 THE COURT: Okay. And the witness that's here

5 today, I actually have something at 5:30. Otherwise, I

6 would be willing to stay, because I think, the way that

7 they're going, they're

8 MS. WILKENS: May I recommend for your Honor to

9 order him back, because he was subpoenaed for today?

10 THE COURT: Sure. And while you're doing that,

11 also, we'd had an inquiry from the defense about a motion

12 for reconsideration of the Court's EDTA order, and since the

13 Court has given the defense a certain amount of time, we'll

14 argue that tomorrow.

15

16

17

MS. WILKENS: I'm sorry. What is that motion?

MR. ALEXANDER: I apologize.

THE COURT: Motion for discovery, for

18 reconsideration of the Court's order, for reconsideration

19 concerning Doctor Ballard. We'll argue that tomorrow.



22 MS. WILKENS: I haven't been apprised of that

23 motion.

24 THE COURT: All I had was the phone call.

25 MS. WILKENS: Okay.


~

237

1 Ms. Royals, Ms. Mansfield, Ms. Killian, and then a

2 representative from the Sheriff's Department with respect to

3 the call log.

4 THE COURT: Okay. And the witness that's here

5 today, I actually have something at 5:30. Otherwise, I

6 would be willing to stay, because I think, the way that

7 they're going, they're

8 MS. WILKENS: May I recommend for your Honor to

9 order him back, because he was subpoenaed for today?

10 THE COURT: Sure. And while you're doing that,

11 also, we'd had an inquiry from the defense about a motion

12 for reconsideration of the Court's EDTA order, and since the

13 Court has given the defense a certain amount of time, we'll

14 argue that tomorrow.

15

16

17

MS. WILKENS: I'm sorry. What is that motion?

MR. ALEXANDER: I apologize.

THE COURT: Motion for discovery, for

18 reconsideration of the Court's order, for reconsideration

19 concerning Doctor Ballard. We'll argue that tomorrow.



22 MS. WILKENS: I haven't been apprised of that

23 motion.

24 THE COURT: All I had was the phone call.

25 MS. WILKENS: Okay.


1

238

THE COURT: So fax it down to the Court, and fax a

2 copy to -- is Mr. Kozemi (phonetic) --

3

4

5

MR. ALEXANDER: Kozemi, yes.

THE COURT: Kozemi.

MR. ALEXANDER: I think that's a different -- I

6 don't know.

7

8

MR. HILE: We'll confirm, your Honor.

THE COURT: Any motion for reconsideration

9 concerning any of the Court's prior orders we will argue

10 tomorrow

11

12

MR. HILE: Yes, your Honor.

THE COURT: -- because, if it pertains to the

13 schedule that the Court set, which it would, we've given a

14 schedule, and so we're here tomorrow. We'll fit that in,

15 also.

16 Would it be awful if we have you come back

17 tomorrow? Are you available?

18 MR. LAND: Yes. That's all right with me. I need

19 a day off tomorrow.

20 THE COURT: Okay. Then we're out of turn today.

21 We'll have you come back tomorrow at 9:00 o'clock.

22 MR. LAND: Okay.

23 THE COURT: Okay. All right. Thank you.

24 MR. LAND: Thank you.



1

238

THE COURT: So fax it down to the Court, and fax a

2 copy to -- is Mr. Kozemi (phonetic) --

3

4

5

MR. ALEXANDER: Kozemi, yes.

THE COURT: Kozemi.

MR. ALEXANDER: I think that's a different -- I

6 don't know.

7

8

MR. HILE: We'll confirm, your Honor.

THE COURT: Any motion for reconsideration

9 concerning any of the Court's prior orders we will argue

10 tomorrow

11

12

MR. HILE: Yes, your Honor.

THE COURT: -- because, if it pertains to the

13 schedule that the Court set, which it would, we've given a

14 schedule, and so we're here tomorrow. We'll fit that in,

15 also.

16 Would it be awful if we have you come back

17 tomorrow? Are you available?

18 MR. LAND: Yes. That's all right with me. I need

19 a day off tomorrow.

20 THE COURT: Okay. Then we're out of turn today.

21 We'll have you come back tomorrow at 9:00 o'clock.

22 MR. LAND: Okay.

23 THE COURT: Okay. All right. Thank you.

24 MR. LAND: Thank you.



239

1 THE COURT: And the witness' name?

2 MS. WILKENS: That's Lester Land.

3 THE COURT: Mr. Land. Thank you. We'll see you

4 tomorrow at 9:00 o'clock, and, Counsel, tomorrow at

5 9:00 o'clock.



8 MR. ALEXANDER: Yes, your Honor. Thank you very

9 much.

10 (Proceedings concluded.)

11

12

13

14 I certify that the foregoing is a correct

15 transcript from the electronic sound recording of the

16 proceedings in the above-entitled matter.

17

18 /7f &!lt2/~1 &kY~ =--~~-.!...=../d_--tJ---,-t/ ___ _ ~~criber Date

19

20 FEDERALLY CERTIFIED TRANSCRIPT AUTHENTICATED BY:

21 ~ ~ ;1y///lad'~ 22 ~F~isco, President

Echo Reporting, Inc. 23

24

25


239

1 THE COURT: And the witness' name?

2 MS. WILKENS: That's Lester Land.

3 THE COURT: Mr. Land. Thank you. We'll see you

4 tomorrow at 9:00 o'clock, and, Counsel, tomorrow at

5 9:00 o'clock.



8 MR. ALEXANDER: Yes, your Honor. Thank you very

9 much.

10 (Proceedings concluded.)

11

12

13

14 I certify that the foregoing is a correct

15 transcript from the electronic sound recording of the

16 proceedings in the above-entitled matter.

17

18 /7f &!lt2/~1 &kY~ =--~~-.!...=../d_--tJ---,-t/ ___ _ ~~criber Date

19

20 FEDERALLY CERTIFIED TRANSCRIPT AUTHENTICATED BY:

21 ~ ~ ;1y///lad'~ 22 ~F~isco, President

Echo Reporting, Inc. 23

24

25


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