Upload
andrewsindian
View
219
Download
0
Embed Size (px)
Citation preview
8/7/2019 2GscamRadia Tapes
1/24
2GscamRadia Tapes, Comptroller and Auditor General of India, Department ofTelecommunications, DMK, First-come first-served,Idea Cellular,Pramod Mahajan, Raja,Reliance Communications, Sukh Ram,Uninor
2G Spectrum Scam-Full Story,origin,growth(?) and
modus operandi.In Corruption, India,Politicians,Radia Tapeson December 25, 2010 at 9:27 am
i2 Votes
Image via Wikipedia
Mahajan assisted Reliance Infocomm to become a nationwide operator without payingfull licence fee
om scams are not new. In August 1996, the CBI registered an FIR against telecom ministerSukh Ram after recovering 3.62 crore from his residences in Delhi and Himachal Pradesh hemade it to the Guinness Book of World Recordsfor the wrong reasons! Thirteen years later, in
http://en.wordpress.com/tag/2gscamradia-tapes/http://en.wordpress.com/tag/comptroller-and-auditor-general-of-india/http://en.wordpress.com/tag/department-of-telecommunications/http://en.wordpress.com/tag/department-of-telecommunications/http://en.wordpress.com/tag/dmk/http://en.wordpress.com/tag/first-come-first-served/http://en.wordpress.com/tag/first-come-first-served/http://en.wordpress.com/tag/idea-cellular/http://en.wordpress.com/tag/pramod-mahajan/http://en.wordpress.com/tag/pramod-mahajan/http://en.wordpress.com/tag/raja/http://en.wordpress.com/tag/reliance-communications/http://en.wordpress.com/tag/sukh-ram/http://en.wordpress.com/tag/sukh-ram/http://en.wordpress.com/tag/uninor/http://en.wordpress.com/tag/corruption/http://en.wordpress.com/tag/india/http://en.wordpress.com/tag/india/http://en.wordpress.com/tag/politicians/http://en.wordpress.com/tag/politicians/http://en.wordpress.com/tag/politicians/http://en.wordpress.com/tag/radia-tapes-2/http://en.wordpress.com/tag/radia-tapes-2/http://en.wordpress.com/tag/radia-tapes-2/http://www.rcom.co.in/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukh_Ramhttp://www.amazon.com/Guinness-World-Records-2009/dp/1904994377%3FSubscriptionId=0G81C5DAZ03ZR9WH9X82&tag=zemanta-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=1904994377http://www.amazon.com/Guinness-World-Records-2009/dp/1904994377%3FSubscriptionId=0G81C5DAZ03ZR9WH9X82&tag=zemanta-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=1904994377http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Idea_Cellular_Logo.svghttp://en.wordpress.com/tag/comptroller-and-auditor-general-of-india/http://en.wordpress.com/tag/department-of-telecommunications/http://en.wordpress.com/tag/department-of-telecommunications/http://en.wordpress.com/tag/dmk/http://en.wordpress.com/tag/first-come-first-served/http://en.wordpress.com/tag/idea-cellular/http://en.wordpress.com/tag/pramod-mahajan/http://en.wordpress.com/tag/raja/http://en.wordpress.com/tag/reliance-communications/http://en.wordpress.com/tag/sukh-ram/http://en.wordpress.com/tag/uninor/http://en.wordpress.com/tag/corruption/http://en.wordpress.com/tag/india/http://en.wordpress.com/tag/politicians/http://en.wordpress.com/tag/radia-tapes-2/http://www.rcom.co.in/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukh_Ramhttp://www.amazon.com/Guinness-World-Records-2009/dp/1904994377%3FSubscriptionId=0G81C5DAZ03ZR9WH9X82&tag=zemanta-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=1904994377http://en.wordpress.com/tag/2gscamradia-tapes/8/7/2019 2GscamRadia Tapes
2/24
2009, he was sentenced to three years of rigorous imprisonment for criminal conspiracy andspent time behind bars for a month before being released on bail.
During the NDA government, there was a major controversy when telecom companies wereallowed to move from a licensing regime to a revenue-sharing one. The sudden removal ofJagmohan from the post of communications minister in 1998 was reportedly a consequence ofhis refusal to toe the line of a section within his government. In July 1999, following therecommendation of a Group of Ministers headed by Jaswant Singh, the fixed licence fee regimewas changed to a revenue share one. This was adversely commented on by the CAG. Accordingto Ratan Tata, if a hypothetical amount was to be calculated at that point of time, the loss to theexchequer would be about Rs. 50,000 crore.
Other ministers for communications during the NDA regime, including the late PramodMahajan, were accused of assisting Reliance Infocomm to become a nationwide operator
offering full mobility in its cellular phone operations without paying the full licence fee. Thisdecision of the DoTwas against TRAI recommendations and the resultant loss to the exchequerwas said to be in the region of 1,100 crore. However, the sheer size of the subsequentundervaluation and misallocation of spectrum makes the earlier scandals pale into relativeinsignificance.
ON 10 JANUARY 2008, at 2.45 pm, an announcement was posted on the DoT website statingthat letters of intent (LOIS) for issuance of licences bundled with spectrum would be given toapplicants between 3.30 pm and 4.30 pm. The announcement added that application fees runninginto thousands of crores of rupees would have to be paid immediately by demand draft, alongwith supporting documentation.
It was made clear that LOIS would be issued to those who deposit their fees first, beating others
by even a fraction of a second this was the infamous first come first served (FCFS) system (orthe way movie tickets are sold) that privileged not financial wherewithal, technical competenceor experience but speed, clout and foreknowledge. Even the FCFS system was not properly
adhered to and the CAG categorically stated that those who obtained licences had priorinformation about how to apply for these LOIS.
A few months earlier, the cut-off date for receipt of applications for licences was suddenly
brought forward to enable particular companies to jump the queue. Here are a few examples:Swan Telecom, which had submitted its application on 2 March 2007, was given a licence withspectrum for Delhi on 28 August 2008, while Spice Communications, which had submitted itsapplication in August 2006, was not given spectrum for the same service area.
For Maharashtra, Spice, which submitted its application on 31 August 2006, got a licence in May2009, whereas Unitech and Videocon got their licences with spectrum much earlier in September2008 though the two companies had submitted their applications for licences more than a yearlater in September 2007. Idea Cellular(date of application: 26 June 2006) also got a licence in
Raja
claimed2Gand3Gspectrumswerenotcomparable,justasbas
matiricewasnotthesameasPDSrice
TheCAGfoundthat
13firmsthatgot85outofthe
122newlicencesin2008did
notsatisfyDoTeligibility
criteria
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pramod_Mahajanhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pramod_Mahajanhttp://www.dot.gov.in/index.htmlhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-come,_first-servedhttp://www.ideacellular.com/http://www.ideacellular.com/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pramod_Mahajanhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pramod_Mahajanhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pramod_Mahajanhttp://www.dot.gov.in/index.htmlhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-come,_first-servedhttp://www.ideacellular.com/8/7/2019 2GscamRadia Tapes
3/24
May 2009 while Unitech (date of application: 24 September 2007) got its licence in September2008.
THE STORY did not end here. Some of these companies expanded their equity bases byinducting foreign partners who paid large sums of money for the shares. Three examples: inSeptember 2008, Swan Telecom sold 45 percent of its shares to Etisalat (of the United Arab
Emirates) for $900 million or around Rs. 4,200 crore the company had obtained its licence foronly Rs. 1,537 crore and did not possess major assets other than a piece of paper, the licence. Amonth later, Unitech Wireless offloaded 60 percent of its stake to Telenor (of Norway) for Rs.6,200 crore this company too counted among its assets only a licence for which it paid Rs.1,651 crore in January 2008. Thereafter, Tata Teleservices sold 26 percent of its shares to NTTDOCOMO of Japan for Rs. 13,230 crore. Thus, the DoT had undervalued spectrum by betweenseven and 10 times its true market worth.
This became even more evident in 2010 when the government was able to raise more than Rs.1,11,500 crore through public auction of third generation (3G) spectrum. Raja claimed 2Gspectrum and 3G spectrum were not comparable just as basmati rice was not comparable to ricefrom the PDS (public distribution system). This argument is fallacious in the context of valuation
of spectrum for a simple reason: the spectrum used is the same; only the nature of servicesprovided is different by deploying superior technology in other words, the same spectrum canbe, and is, used to provide faster data transfer and other mobile telecom services.
The CAG found that 13 companies that had received 85 out of the 122 new licences issued in2008 did not satisfy the DoT eligibility conditions. The companies did not have the stipulatedpaid-up capital at the time of application and 45 out of these 85 licences were issued tocompanies which failed to satisfy the condition that providing telecom services should be themain object clause in their memoranda and articles of association.
Crossed lines (from left): Since 1999, Ram Vilas Paswan, Pramod Mahajan, Arun Shourie,Dayanidhi Maran, A Raja and Kapil Sibal have helmed the telecom ministry
The CAG also pointed out that spectrum was provided beyond the contracted 6.2 megahertz(MHZ) to nine existing operators in 2007 despite a number of applications pending for new
licences. These were Aircel, Bharti, BPL (Mumbai), the public sector undertakingsBharatSanchar NigamLtd (BSNL) and Mahanagar Telephone NigamLtd (MTNL), Idea, Reliance,Spice (Punjab) and Vodafone.
The biggest beneficiary of additional spectrum was BSNL (61.6 MHZ in 19 telecom circles)followed by Bharti (32.4 MHZ in 13 circles), Vodafone (19.6 MHZ in seven circles), Idea (12.6MHZ in six circles), MTNL (124 MHZ in Delhi and Mumbai circles) and others. The total lossto the exchequer on account of allocation of additional spectrum at low prices: Rs. 36,993 crore.
http://www.uninor.in/http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=22.0248,74.9052&spn=1.0,1.0&q=22.0248,74.9052%20(Bharat%20Sanchar%20Nigam%20Limited)&t=hhttp://maps.google.com/maps?ll=22.0248,74.9052&spn=1.0,1.0&q=22.0248,74.9052%20(Bharat%20Sanchar%20Nigam%20Limited)&t=hhttp://maps.google.com/maps?ll=22.0248,74.9052&spn=1.0,1.0&q=22.0248,74.9052%20(Bharat%20Sanchar%20Nigam%20Limited)&t=hhttp://maps.google.com/maps?ll=22.0248,74.9052&spn=1.0,1.0&q=22.0248,74.9052%20(Bharat%20Sanchar%20Nigam%20Limited)&t=hhttp://www.google.com/finance?q=NYSE:MTEhttp://www.google.com/finance?q=NYSE:MTEhttp://www.uninor.in/http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=22.0248,74.9052&spn=1.0,1.0&q=22.0248,74.9052%20(Bharat%20Sanchar%20Nigam%20Limited)&t=hhttp://maps.google.com/maps?ll=22.0248,74.9052&spn=1.0,1.0&q=22.0248,74.9052%20(Bharat%20Sanchar%20Nigam%20Limited)&t=hhttp://www.google.com/finance?q=NYSE:MTE8/7/2019 2GscamRadia Tapes
4/24
In January 2008, when the DoT issued all-India licences at Rs. 1,658 crore, the price was thesame as that which had existed in 2001. The CAG used two parameters for assessing the possiblepresumptive or notional loss which the exchequer has suffered. In November 2007, S Telhad written first to the PM and later to Raja offering to pay Rs. 13,752 crore over 10 years forallotment of 6.2 MHZ of GSM spectrum.
The CAG took this figure as a benchmark and calculated that the government would havegenerated revenue of 67,364 crore by selling 122 licences, 35 licences under the dual-technologyregime and excess spectrum beyond the contracted amount of 6.2 MHZ.
Further, after taking into account the revenue that was generated after the 3G auction, the priceof spectrum for the 122 licences issued can be established at Rs. 1,11,512 crore against the Rs.9,014 crore that the government actually earned. In addition, Rs. 40,526 crore would have beengenerated by selling 35 licences under the dual-use category and Rs. 13,841 crore for excessspectrum. Hence, the CAG report estimated the total loss to the exchequer, based on the 3Gauctions, at Rs. 1,76,645 crore.
http://www.tehelka.com/story_main48.asp?filename=Ne010111THEABCOF.asp
Share this:
StumbleUpon
Digg
Ads by Google
GE FinanceAll types of loans available Apply Now!www.gemoney.in/html
LikeBe the first to like this post.
3 Responses
1.
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Venkatramanan. Venkatramanan said: 2GSpectrum Scam-Full Story,origin,growth(?) and modus operandi. Ramanan50's Bloghttp://t.co/zoJBlfS [...]
http://www.tehelka.com/story_main48.asp?filename=Ne010111THEABCOF.asphttp://ramanan50.wordpress.com/2010/12/25/2g-spectrum-scam-full-storyorigingrowth-and-modus-operandi/?share=stumbleupon&nb=1http://digg.com/submit?url=http://wp.me/pC9c3-1wB&title=2G+Spectrum+Scam-Full+Story,origin,growth(?)+and+modus+operandi.http://ramanan50.wordpress.com/2010/12/25/2g-spectrum-scam-full-storyorigingrowth-and-modus-operandi/?share=reddit&nb=1http://ramanan50.wordpress.com/2010/12/25/2g-spectrum-scam-full-storyorigingrowth-and-modus-operandi/?share=email&nb=1http://ramanan50.wordpress.com/2010/12/25/2g-spectrum-scam-full-storyorigingrowth-and-modus-operandi/?share=facebook&nb=1http://www.google.com/url?ct=abg&q=https://www.google.com/adsense/support/bin/request.py?contact=abg_afc&url=http://ramanan50.wordpress.com/2010/12/25/2g-spectrum-scam-full-storyorigingrowth-and-modus-operandi/&hl=en&client=ca-pub-3443918307802676&adU=www.gemoney.in/html&adT=GE+Finance&gl=IN&usg=AFQjCNFE-nm8dYll_P3hR7GH3PvD90Gemwhttp://tmp/sv6e8.tmp/s-p:%20Go%20to%20www.gemoney.in/htmlhttp://tmp/sv6e8.tmp/s-p:%20Go%20to%20www.gemoney.in/htmlhttp://ramanan50.wordpress.com/2010/12/25/2g-spectrum-scam-full-storyorigingrowth-and-modus-operandi/?like=1&_wpnonce=12abddc52ehttp://t.co/zoJBlfShttp://www.tehelka.com/story_main48.asp?filename=Ne010111THEABCOF.asphttp://ramanan50.wordpress.com/2010/12/25/2g-spectrum-scam-full-storyorigingrowth-and-modus-operandi/?share=stumbleupon&nb=1http://digg.com/submit?url=http://wp.me/pC9c3-1wB&title=2G+Spectrum+Scam-Full+Story,origin,growth(?)+and+modus+operandi.http://ramanan50.wordpress.com/2010/12/25/2g-spectrum-scam-full-storyorigingrowth-and-modus-operandi/?share=reddit&nb=1http://ramanan50.wordpress.com/2010/12/25/2g-spectrum-scam-full-storyorigingrowth-and-modus-operandi/?share=email&nb=1http://ramanan50.wordpress.com/2010/12/25/2g-spectrum-scam-full-storyorigingrowth-and-modus-operandi/?share=facebook&nb=1http://www.google.com/url?ct=abg&q=https://www.google.com/adsense/support/bin/request.py?contact=abg_afc&url=http://ramanan50.wordpress.com/2010/12/25/2g-spectrum-scam-full-storyorigingrowth-and-modus-operandi/&hl=en&client=ca-pub-3443918307802676&adU=www.gemoney.in/html&adT=GE+Finance&gl=IN&usg=AFQjCNFE-nm8dYll_P3hR7GH3PvD90Gemwhttp://tmp/sv6e8.tmp/s-p:%20Go%20to%20www.gemoney.in/htmlhttp://tmp/sv6e8.tmp/s-p:%20Go%20to%20www.gemoney.in/htmlhttp://ramanan50.wordpress.com/2010/12/25/2g-spectrum-scam-full-storyorigingrowth-and-modus-operandi/?like=1&_wpnonce=12abddc52ehttp://t.co/zoJBlfS8/7/2019 2GscamRadia Tapes
5/24
ReplyTweets that mention 2G Spectrum Scam-Full Story,origin,growth(?) and modusoperandi. Ramanan50's Blog -- Topsy.com25 December 2010 at 9am
2. [...] 2G Spectrum Scam-Full Story,origin,growth(?) and modus operandi.(ramanan50.wordpress.com) [...]
ReplyState-run Mahanagar Telephone Nigam Ltd is expect to finalise agreements for sharingits third generation (3G) mobile network eComTechnology27 December 2010 at 9am
3. [...] 2G Spectrum Scam-Full Story,origin,growth(?) and modus operandi.(ramanan50.wordpress.com) [...]
ReplyeComTechnology27 December 2010 at 9am
Leave a Reply Cancel replyTop of Form
Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *
Name *
Email *
Website
Comment
You may use these HTML tags and attributes:
Post Comment 5865 0
1294637981
Notify me of follow-up comments via email.
Subscribe to this site by email
http://topsy.com/ramanan50.wordpress.com/2010/12/25/2g-spectrum-scam-full-storyorigingrowth-and-modus-operandi/?utm_source=pingback&utm_campaign=L2http://topsy.com/ramanan50.wordpress.com/2010/12/25/2g-spectrum-scam-full-storyorigingrowth-and-modus-operandi/?utm_source=pingback&utm_campaign=L2http://ecomtechnology.biz/blog/2010/12/26/state-run-mahanagar-telephone-nigam-ltd-is-expect-to-finalise-agreements-for-sharing-its-third-generation-3g-mobile-network/http://ecomtechnology.biz/blog/2010/12/26/state-run-mahanagar-telephone-nigam-ltd-is-expect-to-finalise-agreements-for-sharing-its-third-generation-3g-mobile-network/http://ecomtechnology.com/2010/12/26/5325/http://topsy.com/ramanan50.wordpress.com/2010/12/25/2g-spectrum-scam-full-storyorigingrowth-and-modus-operandi/?utm_source=pingback&utm_campaign=L2http://topsy.com/ramanan50.wordpress.com/2010/12/25/2g-spectrum-scam-full-storyorigingrowth-and-modus-operandi/?utm_source=pingback&utm_campaign=L2http://ecomtechnology.biz/blog/2010/12/26/state-run-mahanagar-telephone-nigam-ltd-is-expect-to-finalise-agreements-for-sharing-its-third-generation-3g-mobile-network/http://ecomtechnology.biz/blog/2010/12/26/state-run-mahanagar-telephone-nigam-ltd-is-expect-to-finalise-agreements-for-sharing-its-third-generation-3g-mobile-network/http://ecomtechnology.com/2010/12/26/5325/8/7/2019 2GscamRadia Tapes
6/24
8/7/2019 2GscamRadia Tapes
7/24
Gmail Buzz
Shekhar Gupta: The government has the power to tap somebody's phone, andthat power has to be exercised with a great deal of caution - the Supreme Court has
set down the law very strictly. Shouldn't there also be responsibility to protect
somebody's privacy, even if they are involved in criminality? They can only use that
information specifically in case of prosecution.
Ratan Tata: I totally agree, government also has a responsibility; the agencies also
have a responsibility. They have been given a special right to be able to invade
people's privacy for national security or for enforcement of law, whatever it may be.
So they can do so. That additional power is a very special power which has to be
exercised with a sense of responsibility. The content needs to be held forprosecution purposes and not to be misused, and certainly not to go out to have a
field day with. There doesn't seem to be prosecution on one end and there doesn't
seem to be confidentiality on the other. Perhaps as things will emerge, not even
knowledge of how it was disseminated, nor admission of even having conducted
such telephone tapping. So we are going to be in a dead man's zone on this, which I
think is unfortunate. Here I just want to put what you have said quite rightly in
juxtaposition to feeling I have as an Indian, perhaps a law abiding Indian, I wouldn't
even try to work my way out of a speeding ticket. We have all to be proud of what
we have done in India, we have got to be proud of our Prime Minister, we have got
to be proud of the success we have. It's terrible if we as a nation destroy ourselves
and whoever is doing this kind of thing needs to consider themselves not as hero of
the nation but in fact as one of the villains who would bring down this nation after
the good that is being done.
Shekhar Gupta: Do you see the danger in that? Do you see where the murkiness
can lead to...
http://www.google.com/reader/link?url=http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/full-text-ratan-tata-speaks-to-ndtv-on-2g-scam-69007&title=Full+text:+Ratan+Tata+speaks+to+NDTV+on+2G+scam&snippet=Hello+and+welcome+to+Walk+The+Talk.+I+am+Shekhar+Gupta+at+Taj+Wellington+view+Mumbai,+and+my+guest+today+is+Ratan+Tata,+who+has+removed+time+in+an+unusual+time+on+a+very+special+day,+there+is+a+candle...&srcTitle=http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/full-text-ratan-tata-speaks-to-ndtv-on-2g-scam-69007http://tmp/sv6e8.tmp/javascript:void(0)http://tmp/sv6e8.tmp/javascript:void(0)http://www.google.com/reader/link?url=http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/full-text-ratan-tata-speaks-to-ndtv-on-2g-scam-69007&title=Full+text:+Ratan+Tata+speaks+to+NDTV+on+2G+scam&snippet=Hello+and+welcome+to+Walk+The+Talk.+I+am+Shekhar+Gupta+at+Taj+Wellington+view+Mumbai,+and+my+guest+today+is+Ratan+Tata,+who+has+removed+time+in+an+unusual+time+on+a+very+special+day,+there+is+a+candle...&srcTitle=http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/full-text-ratan-tata-speaks-to-ndtv-on-2g-scam-69007http://www.google.com/reader/link?url=http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/full-text-ratan-tata-speaks-to-ndtv-on-2g-scam-69007&title=Full+text:+Ratan+Tata+speaks+to+NDTV+on+2G+scam&snippet=Hello+and+welcome+to+Walk+The+Talk.+I+am+Shekhar+Gupta+at+Taj+Wellington+view+Mumbai,+and+my+guest+today+is+Ratan+Tata,+who+has+removed+time+in+an+unusual+time+on+a+very+special+day,+there+is+a+candle...&srcTitle=http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/full-text-ratan-tata-speaks-to-ndtv-on-2g-scam-69007http://tmp/sv6e8.tmp/javascript:void(0)8/7/2019 2GscamRadia Tapes
8/24
Ratan Tata: I think if it's not controlled, I think yes. I used the word Banana
Republic, I did not use it lightly.
Shekhar Gupta: I was coming to that, because that is a very serious expression.
Ratan Tata: Banana republics are run on cronyism. People of great power wieldgreat power, but people of lesser power or people who have fallen out of power go
to jail without adequate evidence or their bodies are found in the trunks of cars. The
danger is that you could degenerate into that kind of atmosphere unless the
necessary parts of government play their role in upholding the law and fine, let no
one be above the law. I would happily have that happen, various other people would
not like to see that happen but I would feel very happy to see that, I would feel very
proud. So I think it can happen, I mean a Banana Republic kind of an environment
could emerge, if we don't put an end to this kind of thing and under the guise of
freedom of speech or the guise of many other numbers of so-called rights of
democracy abused, the luxury of a democracy.
Shekhar Gupta: While the government does not do its job?
Ratan Tata: The government should do its job, the government's job is in fact to
run the country, to manage the country, to govern the country. And governance is
an important thing not application where it suits one so to micro control where it
suits them on the other hand.
Shekhar Gupta: So you see a lot of crony capitalism, since you used the
expression.
Ratan Tata: Yes I see the evidence of it. I am not in a position to say a lot of it but
it's certainly evident.
Shekhar Gupta: Will you say some of it?
Ratan Tata: Yes.
Shekhar Gupta: Will you describe some of the evidence that you've seen?
Ratan Tata: You see, large contracts being awarded, we see conditions ofcontracts becoming a little vague, implemented funnily, eligibility of capability
being abused. You know, very often I wondered there are some countries for
example where favouritism doesn't apply but you actually pay into the government
if you get a contract. But the nice thing about those countries is that you get the
best contractor, it becomes like a tax. It's an open tax, you pay not to individuals
but an agency. I'm not condoning that but am saying that's one form.
8/7/2019 2GscamRadia Tapes
9/24
Shekhar Gupta: That's corruption by tariff card... transparent.
Ratan Tata: Yes, here, who pays the cost of giving something to a person with less
capability - the customer. We get something that takes five more years to finish
than it should. It costs five times more to complete than it should. So this is not the
time we should do this, this is the time we should build our nation. And we shouldbuild it as many other emerging nations have built theirs, on the basis of
meritocracy.
Shekhar Gupta: How do you manage? How does the group of Tatas manage in this
environment?
Ratan Tata: Well, we have endeavoured to uphold a value system that has been a
part of our tradition. And we've been disadvantaged repeatedly. In that we have lost
projects, projects have been delayed, we have ingratiated ourselves in some cases
with some politicians but we will stay that course. Sorry, annoyed them. And in that
sense we would like to keep the group ferociously protecting this one asset that we
have.
Shekhar Gupta: Do you sometimes pay if you have to pay?
Ratan Tata: We've never done so. Never.
Shekhar Gupta: Be it on the tariff cards... as you say in countries where they
charge it almost like a surcharge.
Ratan Tata: No, we have not actually operated in those countries... I have myselfintrospected what happens here which is a little fussy. I can't say that it's
something else. What happens here, it makes you believe that there is an
undercurrent that is subjective against what you see in some countries, which is out
in the open, and as I said earlier that I don't condone that. At least I see that the
country gets the best that is for that particular project.
Shekhar Gupta: I understand some of our Chief Ministers have started doing that
now, they have open biddings, but whoever wins the bids knows that a certain part
of it has to be contributed back somewhere.
Ratan Tata: Well again, that's off the table. Whereas what I was talking of... it's
there... it's in the invoice. It's out in the open.
Shekhar Gupta: But if we come back to the banana republic, would you say that to
the Prime Minister, whom you said that you respect?
Ratan Tata: I think what has happened in the last few weeks is an indication of
8/7/2019 2GscamRadia Tapes
10/24
what can happen anytime... then we are really going down the route into a banana
republic. I would have no hesitation of telling the PM this because I don't believe the
PM is contributing to this. I think he should be concerned about the nation going in
that direction. And he's a tremendously good man. We are lucky to have him as a
PM. I want to say that it has hurt me to see what he has gone through in the past
weeks... in Parliament... the pressure... the innuendoes and the pressures he's beengoing through to resign and so on. He is one person who is truly above any of the
allegations thrown at him... the person whom we are lucky to have to because it's
his face that has been the face of transforming India. And it is this person who has
commanded the respect of the leaders in major countries. He doesn't deserve to
face this kind of humiliation.
Shekhar Gupta: And the Gandhi family has spent a lot of capital in building his
image and sustaining it.
Ratan Tata: And I was very pleased to see Mrs. Sonia Gandhi supporting him
publically because he doesn't deserve this kind of thing... this kind of pressure in
Parliament. And here again I think this is the responsibility of the Parliamentarians
to transact, to govern the country and not to adjourn the Parliament everyday to
meet some.
Shekhar Gupta: Everybody knows you in the world of business... in the world of
finance. Do you find some of the investors of foreign lands getting worried or wary
of India now?
Ratan Tata: I think it has just happened... so truthfully, I have no knowledge. But I
have a feeling that everybody would be having it on their lips and would be hearingit when I go abroad, that would be in a couple of days. People would be asking
about all what is going on... this scam and that scam. People are now well informed
about India through the Internet. They will think of India as a scandal-riddled
country, which it is not. And you can easily make it that way... make everybody's
mindset operate from one scandal to the other. You can make that unfortunately
the fodder... that the media needs to sell publications or to attract viewing on
televisions. And my experience has been that more noise comes from those who
have the most to hide. So we should not fall into the trap of becoming a nation that
is destroying itself by making everything into a scam.
Shekhar Gupta: Have you seen any increasing unpredictability in the government
policy or governance in India, again from the point of view of an investor?
Ratan Tata: Yes I think so, I've always felt and said this openly that behind it is not
government policy, what's behind it is the vested interests. I think the FDI limits in a
whole series of areas - some of them promised by the government - have not been
done, insurance for example. Retail has been promised, and that is another area.
8/7/2019 2GscamRadia Tapes
11/24
The banks are the third. These are things that the free world has come to accept as
areas of participation. India is a nation that everyone is looking at today. People
want to invest and it's not unusual now for a foreign investor to ask when do you
think the FDI limits on this will change? And you can't give them an answer because
there's nothing today standing in the way of the government doing that. So there
are those areas that...
Shekhar Gupta: ...that you find are inconsistent...
Ratan Tata: Telecom is another example. Through the years... through ten years...
if one really went and looked whether the stated government policy has been
implemented in the manner and spirit it was intended, the answer is no. It's been
modified several times to suit individuals. Initially it may have been public sector
incumbencies, then it was one segment or another.
Shekhar Gupta: So you say it has been changed at whim?
Ratan Tata: Usually behind any change, behind any deviation, is a vested interest.
Shekhar Gupta: I remember two things you said at our last conversation referring
to corridors. I'm taking the second one first - you said that we have come a long
way but things still happen in dark corridors in Delhi and you said that we don't
know that much about them. The other thing you said that corridors of power don't
matter as much as they do... as they used to... but they still matter too much. How
have the things changed in six years, have they gotten better or worse?
Ratan Tata: In some ways it has got better, but I think in many ways it is worse.
Shekhar Gupta: Tell us those, some of those.
Ratan Tata: Well you know there used to be grater adherence to policy. Today the
interpretation of policy has become very vague, so eventually you find that you are
arguing on something that the other side interprets in manner that is so bully and
vague that you come away of that meeting thinking that I'm never going to be able
to do this.
Shekhar Gupta: Any specific example?
Ratan Tata: No, but let me give you an example that has been bandied and used
in the press because they all give me a chance to clarify. It may be known to many,
or some, that when Narsimha Rao was the Prime Minister, an accord was signed in
Singapore to form a joint venture airline. JRD Tata was called by Mr. A N Verma
(who was the Principal Secretary to the PM) to put up a proposal for such an airline.
And we went to Singapore Airlines... we made a great progress... we put a proposal
8/7/2019 2GscamRadia Tapes
12/24
before the government. There was no policy for FDI at that time and a fifty-fifty joint
venture was, I wouldn't say approved, but informally accepted. Then vested interest
brought about a change and fifty-fifty became sixty-forty as a new policy. No
reason, no grounds given. Singapore Airlines accepted that to become a minority
player. So sixty-forty - a new proposal was made. In this period of time, many
governments also changed. I can't specifically say which happened when but itstarted in Narsimha Rao's time, then Mr. Gowda then Mr. Gujral.
Shekhar Gupta: In between that 13 days of Mr. Vajpayee.
Ratan Tata: Yes. Then finally we met every requirement that the government
had... and then the last change was no, no foreign airline can participate. If you are
a diaper manufacturer or P-cap manufacturer, you could invest... but as an airline,
you couldn't. And this is the kind of change and you see that is an example. You
see cases where you just don't get any attraction, nothing happens... the minister
may tell you that I will do this, we will deal with this but it doesn't take place.
Shekhar Gupta: I know you have struggled with defense for some time.
Ratan Tata: Yes, then again it's an issue of not knowing where you stand, though I
think in defense things are truly opening up now in more transparent manner.
Shekhar Gupta: And your group has expanded that a great deal...
Ratan Tata: Yes and I hope that we get away from this concept - which I think I
even said in defense meetings - where I or you are not considered less nationalist
than the public sector and that only they conserve the nation all over the world andfree world. The private sector does the most sensitive defense work and it isn't only
the public sector.
Shekhar Gupta: All over the world... in free world... except France.
Ratan Tata: But in France, even in France, most of that... except most of the labs
etc in the public sector... but there are private sectors that do sensitive work.
Shekhar Gupta: But you see changes there in the defense.
Ratan Tata: Yes, I have seen huge changes.
Shekhar Gupta: Do you regret for being in telecom? Do you sometimes say that
I'm doing 20 things by Telecom?
Ratan Tata: Yes, because of the inconsistency of policy... because of the bias that
exists... yes sometimes I do. But it's a great area. It's a wonderful thing that the
8/7/2019 2GscamRadia Tapes
13/24
government opened it up to everyone and it's travesty that policy got subverted in
a manner that it helps you, disadvantages others.
Shekhar Gupta: And when you can subvert policy and now sought of extra policing
and editorialising, when you have the freedom to subvert the policy then that opens
the market for rent seeking?
Ratan Tata: May be yes, theoretically yes.
Shekhar Gupta: Has anybody asked for money in telecom?
Ratan Tata: In telecom... no.
Shekhar Gupta: In aviation, you made a remark that somebody sitting next to you
said something...
Ratan Tata: Yes, I said that somebody sitting next to me... what I said was not
what the media reported. What I said was a fellow industrialist, in a flight sitting on
the seat next to me, said that why don't you pay money to the minister? You know
that he wants - Rs. 15 crore. No one had ever asked us for any amount of money.
Shekhar Gupta: Those were very good times. Rs. 15 crore would be small change
now.
Ratan Tata: Yes, I realise that. And the person said you people want the airline,
don't you? You want the airline, so pay Rs. 15 crore. How does that matter to you?
And I said - what I was trying to say in answer to the question that - how do youavoid corruption. I said that ought to be self-regulating. I told this person that you
will never understand we just don't do that. He said you are stupid. I said no, I want
to go to bed at night feeling that I have not succumbed.
Shekhar Gupta: And you have never done it even for a mining lease anywhere?
Because now it is considered to be the normal thing for mining leases.
Ratan Tata: No, it is not... on our part, no.
Shekhar Gupta: Tatas have never done that, and have you suffered because ofthat?
Ratan Tata: Yes. We have several mining leases that are still not extended - old
mining leases that have not been extended. Questions have been asked. We are an
expanding steel company. We need iron ore in terms of assured supply. If we are
allowed to expand in iron and steel, one may think, if one looks back the 100-odd
years that Tata Steel has been in existence, have we once exploited or usurped in
8/7/2019 2GscamRadia Tapes
14/24
any way the mining interest that we have? Have we profited? Have we destroyed
the environment? Have we done any of those things? We have not. But we are the
ones that are picked out and it's unfortunate. I think our effort has been to be good
corporate citizens.
Shekhar Gupta: There is another story floating is that a group of Tatas paid asizeable amount of money to Madhu Koda...
Ratan Tata: It's absolutely untrue. As the Chairman of Tata steel, I can say, we
have not done any such thing - directly or indirectly.
Shekhar Gupta: Did you get many leases in his time?
Ratan Tata: Actually we have got no leases in his time which should in itself be an
indication of the veracity, or the lack of veracity, of the stories being circulated.
Shekhar Gupta: But you have heard this charge?
Ratan Tata: Yes, we heard about the charge. I believe Tata Steel has even been
called and asked those questions by the enforcement agencies and we have given
them a response, which is the same as I have told you.
Shekhar Gupta: This is the first public response. You know, I'm pushing the
envelope and I'm also digressing a little bit. India is a funny country. While we have
so many raw materials, yet countries like China, and Korea for that matter which
has no recourse, processes a lot more of it. So are we in effect transferring our jobs,
our taxes, our revenues to smarter countries?
Ratan Tata: In terms of meeting the needs of our own goals?
Shekhar Gupta: Yes, and also in terms of creating a value-added wealth here.
Instead of exporting a lot of this ore, if we had allowed our own capacity to expand
in India, it would be a lot better for us?
Ratan Tata: Absolutely, it would. In fact we are going counter to many years (of)
Mr Nehru's and Mrs Gandhi's national criterion of being self-sufficient, where we
have the capability to be self-sufficient, where today we can equal the bestmanufacturing facility anywhere in the world. Now as an open country we can
acquire technology (and) that's the time when we have our wealth - kept either on
the ground or under-ground - and ore going to people who are exporting that
natural resource. Natural resource today should be one of our key issues. It should
have value added and, as you say, what we should gain is to finish product as an
input.
8/7/2019 2GscamRadia Tapes
15/24
Shekhar Gupta: Have you raised it with policy makers?
Ratan Tata: At various times, yes. (Do you find direction?) Find understanding, but
one of the ills we have is the issues - that are state issues and there are central
issues, and between the two sometimes nothing happens.
Shekhar Gupta: But mining leases is also the biggest ATMs in our politics for last
few years. Besides land, mining leases have become most productive ATM that
never runs out of cash.
Ratan Tata: Yes, because natural resources globally have gone through the roof.
For years and years, nobody bothered about iron ore. Suddenly iron ore and coal...
Coal India has been sitting on the sea of coal all these years (but suddenly it has
become the issue) value of which on the global basis is considered to be enormous.
Shekhar Gupta: Back to Delhi. At which point you realised that you needed
someone in Delhi to work for you and then you hired Niira Radia. How did that
happen?
Ratan Tata: I forget how many years ago. Ten-fifteen years ago, we found
ourselves, like just now, under attack - all kinds of statements being made. In fact
I'd go back home wondering where did these stories come from. We haven't done
this, we haven't done that - it would go on and on. One example is, I think you are
aware of, the story about me having hob-knobbed with the extremists in Assam...
Shekhar Gupta: That story, if I may say so, was broken by Express in 1996, I
think...
Ratan Tata: No no, the story was not broken. It was a prosecution by the
Assamese government at that time. We thought where it is coming from. So those
kinds of issues led us to say that we need to protect ourselves and get our point of
view across to the media. Every time we had tried to do something, it was a
defensive move - rebutting or denying - or usually we got relegated to back page in
newspapers. So we decided we go out and seek a firm to represent us and that is
how we in fact came together with Niira Radia who formed this company. Never
once in our association with her, have we ever tried to subvert policies, move policy
in our favour. Yes we have advocated level playing fields, we advocated changes inpolicy through her or directly, but never once have we done something to exploit a
policy issue. Never once have we used her to make payments or to seek favours,
and we have had a good professional relationship with her. I think she is being
attacked just now in a manner... As I said, every citizen deserves the right to be
innocent until proven guilty, not to be considered guilty by the media.
Shekhar Gupta: And you think that it is unfair... the situation you find right now...
8/7/2019 2GscamRadia Tapes
16/24
Ratan Tata: It would appear so. I can't really say, but I think all the sense one gets
(that) there is someone and something behind it. It's not just natural thing.
Shekhar Gupta: And what (who) could it be? Rivals?
Ratan Tata: I do not know. It could be - could be rivals, enemies in the
government, the corporate rivals. I could not say but it's not a natural thing.
Shekhar Gupta: In your interactions with her, did you ever worry that since she
was working for the corporate world , you might get conflicted at some point?
Ratan Tata: Yes, and in fact, from time to time, I have voiced my concerns to Niira.
In my statements, I confined it to our relationship. Because she represents more
companies, statements are restricted to our professional relationship with her which
has been very good.
Shekhar Gupta: Because much later than she started working for you, she started
to work for the Mukesh Ambani group, which was again involved in a fairly messy
situation. Did you see either a conflict or division of time and mind space that may
have affected your interest?
Ratan Tata: Certainly division of time. Yes, undoubtedly because she did it through
a different company. I'm sure it took some of our time. In terms of conflict, Reliance
industries at that time had no conflict. They were in oil and gas and not in power,
not in telecom and not in financial services.
Shekhar Gupta: But you were in conflict with the other Reliance in a way, in the
marketplace...
Ratan Tata: Yes, we were in competition but she didn't represent them (Anil
Ambani group).
Shekhar Gupta: But you see she was representing you and the other body on the
other side. The two brothers were engaged in a combat of a kind. It is complicated?
Ratan Tata: It could be complicated. I can't say. I'm aware of what pressures orfocus Niira was facing on the other side. Today the two sides coming together, I
think there is more of a chance of conflict. Today Niira would eventually have to
make up her mind what she wants to do...
Shekhar Gupta: Two sides coming together means that Anil and Mukesh have had
a settlement. Is that what you are saying?
8/7/2019 2GscamRadia Tapes
17/24
Ratan Tata: Yes. So now that Mukesh is in a position to enter the field of telecom
or power we have a potential conflict.
Shekhar Gupta: If you look at these tapes, such as they are, I think what caught
public imagination is the idea of somebody - you can call her lobbyist or PR person
or a representative - is talking to people to influence a Cabinet appointment.
Ratan Tata: I have listened to some of the tapes... I'm not a Delhi resident...
(Shekhar Gupta: Good for you) I wonder if other people's phones were tapped,
whether we got similar kinds of conversation. I don't know that she has the power to
influence cabinet appointments or anything of this nature.
Shekhar Gupta: But certainly if anybody thought this could be done to a
journalist, I find it very touching...(laughs). Think about that - a journalist can call
somebody and say make so-and-so a minister and don't make so-and-so a minister.
I've been in the business much longer than those people now, and I don't think I
could do that. As you said, I would have had hard time getting somebody a ticket.
Ratan Tata: I really believe that Delhi is full of people whose life revolves around
politics and what has happened today and what is going to happen and who does
what in political circles... so I really don't know. (Shekhar Gupta: Dark corridors at
11 pm as they say) Correct. Now I think corridors are replaced by telephone lines.
Shekhar Gupta: (The) Late J N Dixit used to tell me (the National Security Advisor
who passed away) that Shekhar it takes you a lifetime to understand the ways of
this city, and by the time I understood it was too late for me to help you. It takes
another life time. Did it (the tapes) come as a shock to you?
Ratan Tata: Some of them have come as a shock to me but the tapes have been
around for a long long time in one form or another. The parts of it (Shekhar Gupta:
You knew that tapes were there?) I knew that there were some tapes - the fact that
some included conversation with me. I realised that her phone had been tapped. We
have had many conversations as with many other people, and what bothers me is
that we are living in a state in this country where that kind of thing happens on an
official basis
Shekhar Gupta: And then it gets leaked...
Ratan Tata: Yes, that's a new phenomenon.
Shekhar Gupta: India is a funny country. We don't declassify something that
happened 60 years back. Nehru's letters to Kennedy (for example) we have to get
them from Kennedy's family's archive, we just got it two weeks back because
Kennedy's family's archive had it. We still have that classified in India. Here we leak
8/7/2019 2GscamRadia Tapes
18/24
some information that were recorded few months back.
Ratan Tata: I think the porosity in Delhi also is something of great concern.
Telephone tapes are leaked, official documents get leaked, files disappear. I think
there is a great deal that the government has to look internally into.
Shekhar Gupta: All that happens in a corporate situations. Can you imagine what
happens to the Pakistani, the Chinese, the CIA, if they get involved. Have you raised
it with Prime Minister or Finance Minister yet?
Ratan Tata: Not to this extent. (Shekhar Gupta: Do you intend to?) Yes.
(Shekhar Gupta: How would you do it?) I think at present moment, I would like to
register my concern as an Indian that this is happening. I don't have enough
knowledge to profess to the Government what they should do, but I think as an
Indian and as a caring Indian who is proud of my country, I feel I should register.
(Shekhar Gupta: Formally would you write to them?) I have been toying with
whether to write or try to speak. Probably the better thing to do is to put on paper
my concern and register my concern with them. I'm not seeking anything for myself
from this. I'm not asking anything to be done for me. I'm asking the Government to
consider that there is an Indian who has concerns for his country that feels that this
kind of thing should not happen; and our country is such that we should honor the
responsibility the agencies have and take the necessary prosecuting actions that
need to be taken. But this free for all and sort of media blitz with seemingly evident
agenda and what looks more and more like a smokescreen, one should put an end
to that, and get down to taking the culprits to justice and getting over with this.
Shekhar Gupta: It is flooding the environment with things that are very seditious.It may be interesting to others but of no real consequence. In the little conversation
between you and Niira - you are showing wearing a black tie/dress and she is
wearing a black gown - it's funny but it's funny like a sequence in a movie.
Ratan Tata: But was that subverting policy? Was that in fact influencing the
induction or removal of a minister? Was that toppling Government? how is that of
any relevance and how do you correlate that with putting my picture on the cover
saying 2G scam.
Shekhar Gupta: Did it matter to you who became telecom minister?
Ratan Tata: From the standpoint of wanting to see, you know, a policy and a level
playing field - yes, it would matter. If you say did I want to see Mr Raja in or Mr
X...no, whoever we thought was going to be ...(Shekhar Gupta: But you have
history with Maran...) Yes, unfortunately because I think he is a very intelligent
person and we just had, if I might be honest with you, what seems to be a
chemistry problem more than anything else. He is extremely intelligent, extremely
8/7/2019 2GscamRadia Tapes
19/24
sophisticated (Shekhar Gupta: And very smart and articulate ...) Yes.
Shekhar Gupta: Will you take us to what happened, because that is again
something we have heard? What happened between you and Maran?
Ratan Tata: I would not want to go into that because I think that has been abusedat various times. It was not my intention to abuse. So I think that should just be left
alone but we had differences. I don't know why. If Raja was going to create a more
level playing field - in a way he may have done many things wrong, but he did some
things right. He opened up the industry, took away a very powerful thing (if I might
say this) and made it a part of a bigger industry. He or whoever it may be need to
deal with people who have excess spectrum. They should they pay for it or return it.
They have deprived others of that spectrum. As of now, we still do not have any
spectrum in Delhi and 39 other areas for no reason. Other people have got it - other
people are holding spectrum for free. So there are inequalities and inequities in
telecom area which still need to be solved.
Shekhar Gupta: Will you give me your description of what you think the scam is?
Ratan Tata: I really don't know. When it started, I thought it was Mr Raja's alleged
deeds, then it seemed the scam related to Niira Radia's conversations with various
people, which were more innuendos than anything else, and Mr Raja's scam was the
loss to the exchequer. I don't want to comment on the rights or wrongs, but loss to
the exchequer was computed on the basis of 3G auction. 2G spectrum was
allocated before the auctions, so it looks somewhat like a hindsight issue but the
media has said that he robbed the nation of X... (Shekhar Gupta: $40 billion) OK,
so if that is so, somebody will need to show that there has been a sort of visionaryview before the event took place that cost him to cause that much loss to the
exchequer. These are things I think the media has blown up. What is unclear to me
is what really is the scam? Was it the manner in which he implemented the policy?
Shekhar Gupta: The one is spectrum and the other is licenses issued in arbitrary
manner...
Ratan Tata: Right, others feel that... So that should raise a question that all the
accusations to Niira, they culminated in her client going to court. So it's not clear
what the scam is.
Shekhar Gupta: Going to court as a victim?
Ratan Tata: Yes, as a victim and not as a beneficiary.
Shekhar Gupta: Give your solution to the Government. 3 things the Government
should do now to calm down situation and also to take it to right conclusion.
8/7/2019 2GscamRadia Tapes
20/24
Ratan Tata: I think the government has a new minister in place, who I admire for
his ability to think through the situation. There should be first the calming down.
The Government should take over the control over the tapes and there should be
strictures on the media to not use the tapes the way they have been using them. I
think the Government should institute a public inquiry on whatever they wish to dorelating to the licenses, the manner in which they were implemented, the allotment
of spectrum and far beyond the eligibility of certain players - that should not be
ignored. In (retrospect), in 2005, I was the person who advocated that spectrum
should not be free. It upset Mr Maran and some of the operators made statements
that if I have so much of money, I should donate to the PM relief fund (Shekhar
Gupta: Sunil Mittal?) Yes. I said at that time that spectrum is a scarce resource and
should be paid for, and I'm the only one who did not get any spectrum (laughter).
So the point is I think there be an inquiry to go into what has really happened and it
should go back to 1999 or 2003 when policy were embedded in certain areas, and
whoever the minister or the Government was at that time. It should be a holistic
view because the industry deserves a consistent policy, not a chop-chop policy - not
a kind of review of what Raja did and what Maran did.
Shekhar Gupta: If investigation happens, you will fully cooperate with them...
Ratan Tata: Of course, if asked to.
Shekhar Gupta: We spend lot of time on what's wrong. Talk about your group.
From 1991 to now your turnover has grown 40 times but nearly 60% of it now is
overseas, is that the different?
Ratan Tata: To some extent it is, and in some extent it happens because the
reason that the so much of our turn over is overseas is because we made two large
acquisition overseas.
Shekhar Gupta: Prime Minister Cameron told us that you are the largest employer
in private sectors.
Ratan Tata: That's turned out, yes, we are between Corus and JLR. JLR was the
acquisition based strategically on products that we make - not the Jaguar part , but
the Land Rover part. As both came together, we were obliged to take both; and I'mvery pleased to Jaguar because I think it's the company with tremendous
technology embedded in it. And it's been a very exciting period of time after we got
over the down turn, which I think was weight around our neck which would in fact
sink us
Shekhar Gupta: Was there moment when you thought that you had bit off too
much.
8/7/2019 2GscamRadia Tapes
21/24
Ratan Tata: Actually, I never thought that we are bit off too much. I just didn't
know that we could go through the deep water of the down turn. My main concern
was that all the initiatives that were in the pipeline should not stop, otherwise it
would come out of the down turn the same ways we went in. The product
development plans, the research-and-development program should continue
Shekhar Gupta: 26/11 came on top of that?
Ratan Tata: 26/11 came on top of that and that affected the hospitality end of our
business. The steel market collapsed worldwide coming out of this and the banking
system vapourised so you got hit the worse way from all sides
Shekhar Gupta: What was the toughest night that you face?
Ratan Tata: There were no toughest nights but there were several instances where
we had to turn to Tata Sons to back us up or to back stop situation or give a
guarantee. And Tata Sons is also not an infinitely deep pocket and so I had in fact
double responsibilities - one is to see these companies through and second, to
make sure that I didn't in any way endanger the security of Tata Sons. I think that
was my toughest period.
Shekhar Gupta: And then the attack came on top of that.
Ratan Tata: And then the attack came on top of it. Very emotional and in fact
something, even now, I feel difficult to control in thinking back to the misery that
was caused. It is such a needless loss of life...
Shekhar Gupta: Do you see a real danger of Indian entrepreneurs now actually
preferring to go overseas then invest in India.
Ratan Tata: It's possible because today we have the ability to go overseas
opportunity for investments are there and countries are very investment friendly
trying to bring in investment. In India states it wishes to be investment friendly but
when you look at fine prints you get stuck
Shekhar Gupta: What was your experience in investment commission, if I say thatit may not have achieved that much.
Ratan Tata: Well it didn't achieve that much because...
Shekhar Gupta: That you, Ashok Ganguly, Deepak Parekh were formidable
people...
8/7/2019 2GscamRadia Tapes
22/24
Ratan Tata: I think we produced two documents that were worthy of view that I
don't think they ever had, we had about 140 specific recommendations to improve
the investment climate. We have never heard one way or another that A has been
approved or B has been disapproved, etc. It's just a black box in which it is gone
and I just think that it was one of these commissions that have been established we
help some companies, what was our local standard and what was our span ofauthority, zero. That apart, I think it was a terrific exercise to look at the
opportunities that there were in India and pin-pointing the areas, the road blocks
that we could take away that would make that happen; and I think there is a
frustration that it didn't do what it could do.
Shekhar Gupta: Did you share it with the Prime Minister?
Ratan Tata: Yes, the Prime Minister is very supportive, although it didn't go into
details, he has been very supportive and I think really wanted to see this happen,
the goal he has set of having $10 billion investments actually took place, but I in
humility must say not because of the investment commission, India itself just
became more attractive.
Shekhar Gupta: Actually 10 billion became a much smaller figure and the world
changed so rapidly.
Ratan Tata: That's right yes..
Shekhar Gupta: So Ratan hopefully the murkiness would go, life would be back to
normal. When that happens what's next on agenda?
Ratan Tata: I don't know Shekhar, I think one way is, not to make too many plans
because the world gives you an opportunity to be quite flexible. And I think as one
grows older, one wants to have the luxury of being more flexible and more tentative
about what they want to do. So, as we go forward, what is next is an issue of what
the country, or...
Shekhar Gupta: I think defense and aerospace is on your mind right now...
Ratan Tata: Yes, that's of considerable interest. Also what occupies my mind just
now is new ways to propel a motor car, you know, be electric, be it hybrid - thosenew technologies are of great interest to me.
Shekhar Gupta: So are we waiting to see a Tata hybrid?
Ratan Tata: Yes, actually, there will be a Tata electric car on sale in the UK next
year, that is, in the next few months - an Indica, but an electric Indica. And yes, you
will see hybrids in our stable in the next couple of years. JLR will have a hybrid and
8/7/2019 2GscamRadia Tapes
23/24
so will Landrover. These are interesting and intriguing technologies.
Shekhar Gupta: And the inevitable question, December 2012?
Ratan Tata: It will fall in November 2012. The search is on. I'm not on the
committee. I consciously decided to stay away from it. And this is something that isgoing to emerge through a list of people, whom they would look at. And I keep
saying, let them come forward with something, lets not prejudge.
Shekhar Gupta: But in 2012, as you hang up your boots in active management, do
you see Tata as a global company, an Indian company, or a foreign company?
Ratan Tata: It's not a foreign company; it will always be an Indian company, with
an important international footprint. I will like to see it be considered as an
international company of Indian origin.
Shekhar Gupta: So an Indian MNC?
Ratan Tata: Yes.
Shekhar Gupta: And how do you spend your time, I know you are interested in
flying and swimming, and certainly dogs that's the interest we share but you have
plans.?
Ratan Tata: No I don't have any plans, you know sometimes in case like that you
don't want to make plans, I said publicly that I would like to continue my interest in
design and thats something I'll think through
Shekhar Gupta: And what's the point of retiring if you have to plan?
Ratan Tata: (Laughs) Good Point... but you know Sunday is a kind of day that you
don't want to make any plans and I hope that applies after December.
Shekhar Gupta: A week of seven Sundays...
Ratan Tata: That's right. At least for a period of time that will be a luxury and then
it might drag, in which time I'll find something to do
Shekhar Gupta: Ratan, you deserve it and I hope you get your seven Sundays and
I know they will be seven working Sundays.
Ratan Tata: I hope not.
Shekhar Gupta: Working on something that there are many opportunities to do...
8/7/2019 2GscamRadia Tapes
24/24
Ratan Tata: Sure it's something.
Shekhar Gupta: Having this conversation with you is always such a privilege
because besides everything else one learn so much
Ratan Tata: Thank You.
Shekhar Gupta: (It's) Always inspirational talking to you.
Ratan Tata: Let me just tell you that you come to be somebody that I really
respect because of the fact you stand for, what you believe in and I have enjoyed
every moment that we have been able to share together, I hope that friendship will
grow as we go forward
Shekhar Gupta:Inshallah.
Ratan Tata: It's something I'll cherish. Thank You.
For NDTV Updates, follow us on Twitteror join us on Facebook
Story first published:
November 27, 2010 19:52 IST
Tags: 2G scam, A Raja, Ratan Tata
Read more at: http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/full-text-ratan-tata-speaks-to-ndtv-
on-2g-scam-69007?cp
http://ndtv.in/NDTVtwitterhttp://ndtv.in/NDTVfacebookhttp://www.ndtv.com/search?q=2G+scamhttp://www.ndtv.com/search?q=A+Rajahttp://www.ndtv.com/search?q=Ratan+Tatahttp://www.ndtv.com/article/india/full-text-ratan-tata-speaks-to-ndtv-on-2g-scam-69007?cphttp://www.ndtv.com/article/india/full-text-ratan-tata-speaks-to-ndtv-on-2g-scam-69007?cphttp://ndtv.in/NDTVtwitterhttp://ndtv.in/NDTVfacebookhttp://www.ndtv.com/search?q=2G+scamhttp://www.ndtv.com/search?q=A+Rajahttp://www.ndtv.com/search?q=Ratan+Tatahttp://www.ndtv.com/article/india/full-text-ratan-tata-speaks-to-ndtv-on-2g-scam-69007?cphttp://www.ndtv.com/article/india/full-text-ratan-tata-speaks-to-ndtv-on-2g-scam-69007?cp