253 IgnorantGuru s Blog

8/13/2019 253 IgnorantGuru s Blog

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I recently moved over to Aptosid, and after a few days of using it I think its going to be a keeper as areplacement for Arch. While its fresh in my mind, I thought I would share my experience of moving fromthe perspective of someone who has used Arch Linux for a couple of years. Ill give a little background, then a

brief summary, then some real details on how I got some things to work.

Background

I wanted to move from Arch Linux for these primary reasons:

Lack of package signing and general concerns with the Arch devs lax security practices and attitudes (link1(http://igurublog.wordpress.com/2011/02/19/archs-dirty-little-notso-secret/) link2(http://igurublog.wordpress.com/2011/02/25/mirror-mirror/) link3 (http://igurublog.wordpress.com/2011/03/24/lwn-picks-up-on-package-signing/))Dislike for how the Arch devs regard their users and contributors

The reasons I was reluctant to give up Arch:

Rolling release which I prefer over periodic large upgradesPackage availability and the extended AUR user-contributed repository that makes installing most softwarevery easyAbility to have a custom, lightweight, fast system without unnecessary baggage and with mostly vanillasoftware

My first distro was SUSE, which became a little too corporate, then Kubuntu, which I eventually found tooheavily modded. When I moved to Arch, I dropped KDE and set up a minimal Openbox desktop with light,fast apps. My main system has a dual-core CPU and 2G memory, but I find running a light desktop with noswap file gives me a very responsive system that can keep up with my usual multitasking it waits for meinstead of me waiting for it. And my netbook of course runs better too. So I was shopping for a distro where Icould set this up without having to remove too much.

I also gave FreeBSD and Gentoo a try, which you can read about here (http://igurublog.wordpress.com/2011/03/18/distro-testing/). FreeBSD had trouble supporting my hardware fully, and Gentoo required a lotof tweaking, and also had some security issues. I skipped testing Slackware for now because official packagesseemed lacking, and I skipped Gnuffy because it inherits most of the problems of Arch. Then I tried Aptosid.

Enter Aptosid

Aptosid (http://manual.aptosid.com/en/welcome-en.htm), made by the same developers that created the

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popular distro Sidux, is a rolling release distro based on Debians unstable sid branch, with some hot-fixesand scripts added to make it more stable and ready-to-run. Being a Debian system, the user has access to thehuge Debian package repos. And I like their attitude, as encapsulated in the Debian Social Contract(http://www.debian.org/social_contract): We will be guided by the needs of our users and the free softwarecommunity.

Aptosid does not offer a minimal CLI-only installlike Arch. There are various ways to install it generallyone of their live ISOs are used (KDE full or lite, XFCE, and coming soon LXDE). I went with their XFCEversion: aptosid-2011-01-geras-xfce-amd64 ISO.

After using Arch for so long, the installer caught me by surprise I felt pampered and spoiled. First, I wasexpecting a text installer, and instead it booted rapidly and flawlessly into a full and attractive XFCE desktop.There was immediately a feeling of quality Ive never seen a live CD boot so fast and flawlessly on myhome-made hardware. The GUI installer was very simple with just a few options. The only thing I wouldchange is that it didnt allow me to select no grub install (I wanted to handle that myself). So I told it to installgrub to one of my non-boot drives just to avoid overwriting my boot drives MBR. Other than that it was abreeze not bad for a 435MB ISO!

I then booted into the installed system, which also booted fast and flawlessly, picking up all the hardwarewithout a single miss. The included gdm login manager brought me into an XFCE desktop much like the live

version. I was impressed and was definitely enjoying being spoiled like this. The desktop was definitely usableas it was, and I dont say that about many distros normally I rip out the carpeting and start remodelingimmediately. XFCE was looking the best Ive seen it, with nice fonts and colors. And the included apps werevery sane and useful. Ice Weasel (Firefox) was already in there, and I was online without having to configure athing. I actually had to stop and consider what I wanted to do next, because I wasnt expecting to be this farfor at least a day!I opened a terminal to see what was running

Default install processes:

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$ % , % .& $$% %%" $ $ $$! ,, $ % /' $! !% !& !%% 0 ,,(/// !$!!%%' !%% ! !%% !! , 1," & !%% !! ,/// $ $ $2 % % $" '3( " $" '3( "& $" '3( "' $" '3( "( $" '3( " $" '3( ") ! %, % ,!// %! !%3 $!%% %%% $ ..(. %% 2.., $% $$%! %%.%% .( $$%! %%.%% .( $$% %% %%% %%% $.(% !$.. . .( .(%! - %% . !$.(!%!.(%%! # ()34 .

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Not bad at all nice and lightweight. The first bonus I found was that I had a great little XFCE system already

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running, from which to build my openbox setup. I figured once I had that running I could remove whatever Ididnt want. This meant that I had a working browser to research the install and any problems, configuredterminal, editor, etc.

As I began working on the systems internals, I definitely had the impression that this was somethingsomeone took some time to put together well. It had a refined quality to it. I also noticed attention to securitydetails lots of little and not-so-little settings and refinements that I wasnt used to seeing in Archs defaultconfigurations. Debian packages are definitely put together carefully and well configured. At the same timeAptosids packages tend to be more vanilla and cutting edge than Debian proper.

Probably the biggest difference from Arch are the runlevels and init system. But I was used to this fromUbuntu, so I dug out my old notes, and I found that my experience with Arch put me in a good position toknow what was happening and what to adjust to my liking. Most of it worked as is, and worked well.

Once I installed openbox(apt-get install openbox), I was immediately able to select openbox as my sessionand I was into the usual plain gray openbox desktop nothing to it. Heres what was running in the openboxsession even less:

Default Openbox session processes:

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I then did a full upgrade. The devs recommend you always use apt-get directly. GUI apps like Synaptic can beused to search and explore the system, but they dont handle Aptosids rolling release mechanisms. For a fullsystem upgrade, they ask that you exit X and switch to runlevel 3 for the install. First I downloaded requiredpackages while still in X:

% % % % 5 ! $ 6 !! "

Then I exited X and:

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'% %% !5 $ 1 " 7 7 28

Next I installed my printer, which is sometimes a hassle. Only things to resolve were getting the right 32 bit

libraries for the driver and a little problem with scanning as a normal user solutions for Debian on theBrother website worked. Then I installed the Nvidia proprietary driver needed for the TV-Out on my cardinstead of nouveau.

With those working, I felt confident that I would be using Aptosid for good. I disabled gdm and set the systemup to go straight into Openbox, and got into configuring it, turning off some unneeded daemons, etc. (detailsbelow).

Installing additional software is a breeze with apt-get, and the packages are PGP signed. I was happy to findthat every single piece of software I wanted was in the repos, including a handful that had been in ArchsAUR. And I carefully removed a few things, although I found the default XFCE components were small andreasonable, so I left a lot of it be never hurts to have alternate apps available.

Moving my home folder from Arch left all my software configured it all worked perfectly no adjustmentsto the home folder were required.

When all was done, my system used 3.33GB, compared to 3.88GB on Arch, which surprised me. Samesoftware plus the XFCE stuff I didnt have on Arch came out smaller! Part of the explanation could be the factthat Aptosid offers split packages for libreOffice, so I only installed writer and calc.

The system has been running well for several days thus far it is very stable and fast. In general Im veryimpressed with how much I was able to accomplish with relatively little effort.

Like Arch, Aptosid is cutting edge, so occasional breakage is the norm. On my most recent dist upgrade thenvidia kernel source build gave an error, so I stuck with the previous kernel. This is a known issue

(http://aptosid.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=962&postdays=0&postorder=asc&sid=319196bd04b141ad0aa850a82881ab78) having to do with Nvidia not keeping up, and the Aptosid devsrecommended just using the prior kernel for the time being. Someone also posted an easy fix for the source, buI havent tried that. That is the only unresolved issue I have at this point. Looking at and using my desktop, Iwouldnt even know I changed distros.

The main difference is with Arch you install software and configure it, whereas with Aptosid the software ismore carefully configured, but you may want to trim back some things. With the lighter components I usedthis was very minimal, and I actually appreciated using a configuration that had some work already put into itAptosid seems nicely positioned between the bare minimum of Arch and the overdone complexity of

Ubuntu.

So based on a few days worth of experiences, I definitely am liking Aptosid, which I find to be an interestingmix of concepts. Its rolling release and unstable, yet polished and refined, and quite stable for use (thus farand from what Ive read). Its a small distro, yet can take advantage of the huge reposand issue support ofDebian (many solutions to problems are on Debian forums, and I still use the Arch Wiki as well much of thecontent is generic). And the packages seem to be sanely configured with an emphasis on security. Nice jobAptosid!

Nitty Gritty

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Below are my detailed and commented install notes, which show how I resolved a few problems and gotthings working the way I wanted.

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March 31, 2011 - Posted by IgnorantGuru | Tips

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Ive been increasingly fed up with Arch for a long time, but havent tried anything better so far. When mynew laptop arrives, Ill certainly give this a go, but Im not a fan of xfce myself.

Comment by betamax | March 31, 2011 | Reply

This thread is an interesting read. Even though the devs there say there are no plans for a cli-onlyinstaller, I could see it happening at some point it lends itself to it.

But the xfce stuff didnt get in my way it was actually handy to have it there while I was gettingopenbox set up. And actually they did a nice job I never cared much for the look of xfce but Ive neverseen it like this pretty sharp. I should also mention that fluxbox was also included as a session option.

Comment by igurublog | March 31, 2011 | Reply

1.

Glad you like Aptosid. Ive posted a link to this article in our Community Forums. Enjoy.

Comment by detaos | March 31, 2011 | Reply

2.

add the frickelplatz source in /etc/apt/sources.list.d/

deb http://frickelplatz.de/debian/ sid main contrib non-free

That will take care of the nvidia issue, plus 64-bit chromium-browser (if you need it).

Comment by dibl | March 31, 2011 | Reply

3.

After dibls recommendation a few weeks ago on the Kubntu forum I installed the KDE4 version of aptosid

(Im a KDE fan!) The partition setup is somewhat non-intuitive but experienced users will have noproblems. Other than that the install was easy. The KDE4 version is classic, although not 4.6, but the themesare beautiful. I like leading edge KDE distros and if Kubuntu ever falters I know where my goto distro is.

Comment by GreyGeek | March 31, 2011 | Reply

4.

Hi.Currently an Arch user, but Id like to know how Aptosid compares with regards to overall responsivenessand boot times?

Also, what kernel do they cuurently use? Is it the vanilla Sid 2.6.37/38 or a custom compiled one?

Thanks.

Comment by Nimphtus | April 1, 2011 | Reply

Current kernel is vmlinuz-2.6.38-2.slh.2-aptosid-amd64. Aptosid does compile their own cutting edgekernel (based on what I read in the nvidia thread).

I didnt measure the boot time because it was simply FAST. I would say close to Arch possibly a bitfaster or slower, but not much difference.

Responsiveness is great in general. I think some of the priorities are different, but these can be adjusted.

5.

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I have noticed little differences in the paint times on some apps like Geany and Firefox just a hairslower (a few milliseconds, but within my visual range to detect). But other things seem quicker. Norhave I optimized things yet still getting to know the system.

Playing video, for example, its completely smooth. I definitely havent encountered any video, audio,mouse or keyboard pauses, etc., which would drive me crazy.

Comment by IgnorantGuru | April 1, 2011 | Reply

Thanks for the reply, Guru :)

I hope you keep us updated on any future optimizations you make to your aptosid system.

Goes without saying that Im extremely interested, and might take the plunge when I find some timelater.

Best Regards.


Will do. I think the live CD will give you a decent idea. The xfce one booted very fast cant

speak for KDE.

Today I figured out how to remove exim4 (MTA) even though its a dependency of lsb-core(required by the google-earth 6 monster). I updated the Nitty Gritty details section above withthat info.

And I figured out how to make my own script the systems MTA silly to run a full MTA just tocatch roots mail. (No MTA was installed by default.) I might make a howto on this when I get achance. Pretty easy.


the static ip can also be done with ceni. aptosids network tool.

Comment by se7en | April 1, 2011 | Reply

6.

IG,

You might want to give GRML a go one of these days. Ive heard great things about it from many serious*nixers.

Its touted as a Live system, but most install it to their internal drive (via grml2hd, if I remembered right)and find that its possibly the snappiest Debian based distro out there. Its said that GRMLs small iso (sidderived) installs less than Debians own net.iso base.

Another benefit is that it comes with zsh set as default shell, and a pretty good .zshrc to boot (my Archsetup uses a GRML derived zshrc that someone ported to AUR)

Main page http://grml.org/Daily snapshots http://daily.grml.org/GRML zshrc http://grml.org/zsh/


7.

If aptosid meets your needs, great. I was wondering if you considered Sabayon at all. I dont use it, but it isa rolling release distro that is Gentoo-based, and features Entropy package manager (so you wouldnt be

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reliant on Portage). It has both a CoreCDX (Fluxbox) edition as well as a SpinBase (no GUI) edition (inaddition to offering KDE, GNOME, Xfce, LXDE, & Enlightenment editions).

http://forum.sabayon.org/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=22982

Comment by Anonymous | April 3, 2011 | Reply

So far so good with aptosid nice system. Sabayon has some promising aspects I did come across it atone point in my shopping. At this point Im a little concerned with Gentoo as apparently it suffers some

unsigned package issues, as came up in the comments to the LWN article on Arch:

> Unless Im out of date I believe Gentoo has also always suffered this, and continues to do so.

You are many years out of date :) Gentoos portage has had the ability to use GPG to sign and veritypackage manifests since 2004: http://www.gentoo.org/news/20041021-portage51.xml

What is true is that there seems to be no policy requiring Gentoo developers to sign manifests, and aa result, many developers never bother to do so and thousands of packages remain unsigned.

Sounds like Sabayon would inherit these as it uses Gentoo unstable repos. I havent looked into thedetails on this, but I think anyone considering Gentoo or derivatives should review the issues.


Especially like the install notes and the fact that you keep openbox.Gonna try Aptosid too soon.Would be nice to hear what you do miss leaving Arch. For instance the rc.conf file , easy daemon setup.And dont you miss the easy compiling with packer or what you used before for Aur?

Comment by Pablo | April 3, 2011 | Reply

I do like Archs simpler init system, but once you get to know update-rc.d its good enough. Just a

matter of translation.I think the AUR is a great idea that would benefit any distro. I havent actually missed it yet because allthe software I wanted was already available, except for pcmanfm-mod which compiled fine. The debianrepos are hard to beat something I missed while using Arch, but the AUR made up for it.

Working on aptosid with an Arch background is actually pretty fun. Like having a well made system toexplore, while also knowing how to adjust it and make it do what you want. Ive learned a lot already,and most of it is pretty cool.

Also, I havent used any GUI configuration apps not a one. By choice I know they have some inthere. Only GUI system tool Ive used is Synaptic, which I just like for exploring the installed package

database, dependencies, etc. But even there I mostly use apt-get, apt-cache, and dpkg aliases. Its a greatCLI system.


9.

My trek forth and back trying distro after distro I started with Kubuntu for a year or so then migrated toSidux for a good year and then, only after the LOAD_CYCLE_COUNT issue fried my laptops HDD, I triedArch and now I think I just stayed with Arch because the documentation/wikis were so much better andthe packages were a bit newer.

Now with the package signing and overall security concerns, Im thinking about going back to Sidux, akaAptosid. The question I havent answered for myself is why go to Aptosid instead of just Debian Sid? I just

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checked and the packages that I use on a regular basis are very up-to-date and its obviously one less layerremoved from stock Debian, less customization to have to worry about in terms of security, e.g. howAptosid compiles its own custom kernel.

Whats kept you or anyone thats in the same boat from just sticking with Debian Sid?

Comment by LoyalArchUser | April 5, 2011 | Reply

Good questions. Personally, I figured Aptosid would be a bit more stable & refined than plain sid at

least thats what they claim is their purpose, and a number of people suggested aptosid to mespecifically. But I cant say I know the differences well. There is some info on the Quick Start page:

The kernel is aptosid optimised to help offset issues, add new functionality, or configured for fasterperformance and better stability and tweaked from latest kernel from http://www.kernel.org/aptosid run levels are different to debian see: aptosid runlevels init

You might inquire on their forum what the specific differences are the devs seem to participate there. Iwould be interested too.

I havent done many upgrades yet, but thus far my system is running very well. Having the system and

packages pre-configured is a little different. But Im seeing a benefit it looks like more effort goes intosecurity settings. With Arch, I think people tend to install a package and use it with minimalconfiguration. The problem with this, which Im now realizing better, is that most Arch packages are noreally setup for good security or integrated with other components this is considered the usersresponsibility (but how many users take the time to address these refinements?) Ive picked up somegood ideas from how the packages come configured on Aptosid. And its definitely far less busy thanUbuntu (my only other Debian derivative) pretty sane defaults. For example, sound has workedwithout my doing anything, and its using my preferred server by default alsa. There seems to be adecent respect for simplicity.


Interestingly enough also Linux Mint XFCE is switching to Debian and a rolling release model:http://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=1725Rolling editions do not carry version numbers. They follow the Debian Testing branch. Because of theirrolling nature, theyre receiving continuous updates and their version number never changes (technicallyits always 1/though we do not mention it since its not relevant). Note the absence of version number inLinux Mint Xfce for instance, indicating its rolling nature.

An important thing to notice is the fact that rolling editions are in constant evolution but that a particularISO image is a snapshot of this edition at a particular time. So, though rolling editions do not get outdated,ISO images do. For this reason we use a timestamp for our ISO images, such as Linux Mint Xfce (201104).

Would be interesting to compare in configuration, stability and snappiness/

Comment by Pablo | April 7, 2011 | Reply

11.

I am a Linuxer who uses Debian testing, installed from the netinstall cd, with standard and notebook andevery other option unchecked, which gives me a core Debian system, which I then proceed to build to myliking. Despite the teenage hubris of Arch users, I believe I have a system as customizable and up to date(currently running .38-2 kernel for example) as Arch, with better program selection and high grade securityDebian is simply what Linux is meant to be, technically and politically.

Now, reading your blog, I am under the impression that you know your way around computing (certainly

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much more than me, Im a journalist by trade), so I am puzzled by two things. One, why did you use Archfor a full year, knowing full well its unacceptable shortcomings? And two, whats the advantage of Aptosidover running Debian sid, and why sid, and not testing, if stability is an issue? Especially if you dont shyaway from building your own system to your liking (as using Arch in the first place seems to suggest Iguess nobody goes for that distro so they could have no security, theres other motivation)

Comment by istok | April 7, 2011 | Reply

> One, why did you use Arch for a full year, knowing full well its unacceptable shortcomings?

I did not know full well for a year I discovered the extent of the security problems when I lookedinto it in detail some weeks ago. My lack of awareness was due to bad assumptions on my part (Ithought any major distribution would have the sense to secure mirrors, especially with the toolsavailable for decades), and also due to the policy on the forums of removing info embarrassing to thedevs. When I did look into it, the poor attitudes of the primary devs is what drove me away from Archmore than any one security problem I realized they simply dont care about their users (security oranything else), to put it mildly.

> And two, whats the advantage of Aptosid over running Debian sid, and why sid, and not testing, if

stability is an issue?

You tell me youre the experienced Debian user. How about providing a summary of the benefits ofthese options as you see them Im sure others will appreciate it, as will I. As for why I tried Aptosid it was recommended and looked capable, and Im still using it because its doing the job. I doubt Illchange right away (tired of reinstalling), but Im always open to things done smartly, and at some pointI may try other Debian variants, Slackware, SalixOS, Mint, or others that have been brought to myattention. Thanks.


Im not going to do a Testing vs Sid comparison, as Im sure the are others far more capable than I at

explaining.

One thing I will share;Some seasoned Debianites seem to prefer Sid over Testing mainly because of the rate brokenpackages get fixed. As you know, Testing and Sid arent constantly rolling like Arch or Gentoo. Bothgo into a frozen state for a few months once every 2 years or so (usually close to an official releaseof Stable). Yes, Testing is probably more stable than 90% of distros out there, but you still getbreakage, especially just after the repos get unfrozen following an official release of Stable. In thiscase, fixes often make their way into the Unstable/Sid repos first (lets forget about Experimental fornow, shall we), while it might take some weeks for these fixes to make their way to Testing.

Another reason (Im told) is that packages in Unstable/Sid are more vanilla (as the package devs

intended) compared to those in Testing or Stable which have been modified for better Debianintegration.

Comment by Nymphtus | April 7, 2011 | Reply

Thanks good to know. Im a fan of packages that are left fairly vanilla. I found that manyproblems in Ubuntu were caused not by the original developers but by careless and heavy-handed modding, and then those bug reports were not addressed properly. Ubuntu is probablythe extreme in this behavior.

I actually dont mind breakage as long as it is eventually addressed, or can be addressed by theuser adjusting some config. That is part of rolling release. I always have a reasonably recent

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backup available, and if I dont like an upgrade, roll it back.


When you decide to try out other Debian variants, give CrunchBang Linux a test drive;http://www.crunchbanglinux.org. You can make it a rolling release by modifying the sources list topoint to Debian unstable versus stable repos. There is even a forum specifically for CrunchBangusers running unstable. You will find the forums to be very friendly as well.

Comment by Kurt | June 22, 2012 | Reply

Tell them KrunchTime referred you.


Good day.

After having read your impressions on aptosid and coming from Ubuntu, I agree with your findingsregarding the distro.

I guess when one tries Linux they come upon either a very bare distro that can be built up to ones liking

but end up spending more time building it instead of using it, or a heavily modded distro mostly forbeginners with lots of eye candies and conveniences but ends up trimming the fats from it.

You particularly mentioned the use of fam in aptosid over gamin. I would like to ask if you everencountered the fam daemon using up 100% of one core of your cpu. After some considerable minutes ofwaiting you find that the only way to stop it is to kill it. I have seen this happen a couple of times and Iwonder if you might have some info regarding this unexpected behavior.

/m

Comment by milithruldur | April 7, 2011 | Reply

Hi, There does seem to be a bug in fam on this. I encountered it when for some reason I had disabled thefam daemon from starting at boot, and manually started it later in the session. It kept pegging one coreas you describe. I stopped and started it several times, but it kept doing this.

However, when started at boot, Ive yet to have it do this, so it hasnt been a problem for me. Maybe trystarting it at an earlier runlevel (its started in 2 thru 5 on mine). You could also see if theres a bugreport on this.


I have not yet found a recent bug report on it, although I have found that Gamin might be a betteralternative to Fam:

Gamin has been designed as a drop-in replacement for FAM with securityand maintainability in mind and can use Linuxs advanced inotifyservice when available.

Im not sure why Fam would be used in aptosid instead of Gamin. As a workaround I opted toreplace it with Gamin, and I have several things to say about this:

1) If you manually remove fam and libfam0 packages then this will remove other packages as well.Simulate the removal process first to see if this is acceptable. However,

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2) If you decided to install gamin and libgamin on top of fam and libfam0, then those other packageswill not be removed, save for libgnomevfs and thunar-vfs and fam. It really seems that Gamin isindeed a drop-in replacement for Fam, because removing Fam removes a couple more packages,while installing Gamin on top of Fam will remove Fam but not the others.

/m

Comment by milithruldur | April 8, 2011 | Reply

I have always understood that gamin was the newer version of fam, so I was surprised to see itin aptosid too. But it seems to work better with pcmanfm-mod than gamin did pcmanfm-modpicks up on directory changes instantly now, whereas with gamin there was a delay. Makes itnice and snappy. But I also disabled hal support when I built pcmanfm-mod this time (so HAL isnot used for mounting I use devmon for that), so perhaps that affected something.

I encountered the 100% cpu load once yesterday with fam when I was working on pcmanfm-mod(restarting it frequently for testing). But with regular use it hasnt been a problem for me Iactually like fam better.

I do see some old bug reports on this, with some possible workarounds. Doesnt look very wellsupported anymore though, so gamin might be the way to go if you encounter this bug. Thanksfor the tips on switching.


I appreciate seeing this article. I had not read it but keep seeing more responses to your article about ArchLinux. I left Arch because of your article and have seen first hand how they treat the users. I was never ascomfortable of using Arch as I like some thing set up for me. Maybe this is why I kept using KDE as theyseemed to have every thing set up and I had to do nothing. I at one time used Debian and kept coming backto it but finally stopped using it as I liked a more up to date system and found that some software even intesting was not that up to date. It sounds like things have changed in this regard. I have used aptosid andwas not to impressed at the time but that was quite some time ago and things may have changed since then

At the moment I am testing PC-BSD 9 but might leave this and try out aptosid. I like true rolling releases somay try this out for the time being and then see where Gentoo gets on there problem and go there instead.

Comment by John | April 12, 2011 | Reply

As Nymphtus said and I have noted, sid does seem to be more up to date. One thing I like about Debian this morning I received this email:

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%%%%%=9 EME :M9;-?=%%%%%

I looked and I had vlc 1.1.8-2 installed, so I did an upgrade immediately. These security alerts are nice. Ialso have noted that on the handful of alerts Ive received so far, the problems were already fixed in sidand testing said this problem will be fixed soon.


I tried to install this to my main hard drive. It is funny they are using such an old installer. For me it keeps

aborting after step 5 so now I have no linux installed on this machine. Not sure what the problem is as thefiles it tells me to check do not offer any advice as to what went wrong. I guess I might try out gentoo againor throw Fedora 15 on here again as I know that works.

Comment by John | April 13, 2011 | Reply

15.

I obtained a few years ago sidux; now on my three computers are updated Xfce aptosids SSD NetbookAcer, MSI ATI Radeon AMD 64 laptop and AMD 64 box.

But on AMD 64 laptop during the boot message is:

hda_intel: azx_get_response timeout, switching to single_cmd way

and after 10-15 minutes the computer shuts down.

With Parted Magic hours of hardware inspection is without errors + 80 C, scan disk, CPU tests etc.).

I think the error is in geras or Debian sid kernel with sound card, or grub2, because older apto / siduxesworked on the laptop properly.

The lesson: no need to rush!

I am going to downgrade my distro and await the resolution of problems.

After 12 years of Linux, from SuSE 6.0 (1999.) to Debian, several Ubuntus, Mandrake, Gentoo, Arch, Mint,Sabayon, Fedora, Puppy and countless gigas of Debs, rpms, tgzs : huge Gnome and ugly KDE 4.x are notinstalled on my computers.

Comment by mlse | April 14, 2011 | Reply

16.

To IgnorantGuru and all who miss package signing.

I was upset when I got to know IgnorantGuru decided to move from Arch to another distro only because oflack of package signing. Arch is very good distro with a lot of advantages: simple in configuration, oneconfig file instead of bunch scattered over the system, stable, and of course rolling-release. And I dont thinkone defect in a system is enough to abandon it. Maybe someone will now say that its a REAL and BIG

defect! But I am saying not about weight of bug, but about its quantity it is only one! I could understandswitch to another distro if there were heap of them bug on bug driven by bug! But only one

So what do I suggest?

We are living in open source world, right? So whats the problem to make fork of any program we want, ifwe have of the sources?!

Decisions (in order of simplicity)

1) *pacmans fork*. The inconvenience is forks maintenance to include all the changes of original pacman

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2) instead of writing and maintaining the fork, we can use *spaceman*. Why invent something what isalready done! Spaceman is package manager of Gnuffy (Arch based distro) with implemented packagesigning! If it is based on Arch then it should work under Arch as well. Take spaceman and change it littlebit for our needs to work in Arch as native.

3) more simple variant *pacmans wrapper*. Like yaourt or packer. I personally prefer more simplepacker. Wrapper is not replacement of orinigal program but its supplement. So you dont have to care aboutall changes of pacman. Your program just supplement it, like packer with its ability to install from AUR.Here is the same thing wrapper cares only about package verification, and if it is correct pass it to

pacman, the rest thing doesnt matter.

4) even more simple variant combination of (2) and (3). It is *wrapper which function like spaceman*.Inventing your own code is minimal, and changes of pacman dont bother at all.

What next? Next is(are) mirror(s) with signed packages

Again, decisions (in order of simplicity)

1) Download all the packages from the mirror where packages are not faked. Sign them. Make our ownmirror.

2) Find already existsing mirror with correct packages. Contact with mirrors maintainer and arrange aboutcreation of parallel repos with signed packages.

I believe other mirrors maintainers will appreciate it and will maintain repos with signed packages as well

Comment by BrainWorker | April 17, 2011 | Reply

Id go with number two, as Ive already done that on my Arch system (which is now a Gnuffy system). Iwould be interested to hear what wrapper ideas youd have for spaceman if we go with number four.(Not to mention editing spacemans codes quite easy)

Also, I think we could go with number 2 quite easily if we can contact him.

You might want to also look at this thread, where I posted about my experiences with Gnuffy:http://bbs.archbang.org/viewtopic.php?id=519

Comment by amethystsigilyph | April 17, 2011 | Reply

*Durp, I meant number two for the part about the mirrors in the second paragraph of my reply to you.

Comment by amethystsigilyph | April 17, 2011 | Reply

I am glad to hear that someone else is concerned about package signing, besides IG :)This is great! Ones as good as none, together they can move mountains! :)

More about point 4. In point 2 I said about usage of spaceman instead of pacman as packagemanager under Arch (with possible modifications in order to make it run under Arch smoothly). Butin point 4 I suggested easier (as I think) variant make wrapper for pacman using spaceman featuresthat have to do with signing.

What do I mean? Spaceman is a stand-alone application, which can, inter alia, install, updrade,remove packages. I suggest to port only the code concerning package signing (only that part we areinterested in) and make pacman wrapper from it. Thats it. We are not really interested in new wayof installing or upgrading packages, are we?!

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The second advantage of that approach is that, unfortunately, Gnuffy is abandoned project and it isnot developed. The latest update of projects wiki was one year ago, and the URL to spacemanspackages is broken.So whether you like it or not, project is abandoned. For some reason it seems that nobody isinterested in it. And in this case I think we have to adopt the best things that was made but nowlying in the ruins. Especially because Arch is good and well.

Comment by BrainWorker | April 18, 2011 | Reply

Oooh, right. What URL are you referring to thats broken? I suppose you mean the package list,which downloads just fine onto my system and I can still upgrade just fine. Theres probablysome more stuff I can fix in spaceman (most of which are minor bugs) and there is some activity,but not much due to lack of manpower. Ill go ahead and stick with my decision so I can helpthem, but I digress. Onto the feedback for your solution:

I can work on a wrapper to deal with the signing quite easily (provided I can get time back on mydesktop, because my one of my current classes require me to make *.docx files with linenumbering). Ill just have to make sure the wrapper covers all possible options for pacman. Agood starting point for the wrapper would probably be packer, since it by default deals withoperations only it needs to deal with, letting pacman handle the rest.

Adding the signing support to makepkg should be relatively easy itself, only requiring a fewlines to be added to makepkg to sign the package.

The code snippets that would be of most interest to you are the sign_pkg and the check_signaturefunctions. The check_signature function may require a bit of tweaking to suit the needs of thewrapper. Ill try to get on my desktop to see how well deal with the checking (and to investigateit further to see what changes well need).

http://pastebin.com/nN0f1rrt


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I spent almost a year with #! Statler, based on Testing and it was more stable than any newly releasedUbuntu. Decided to try out ArchBang on an Arch base an it is OK. Lovely docs.

However, #! will be based on Stable and I really prefer a rolling release. I think my skills have advanced tothe point where I can config and maintain my own Openbox on Debian Unstable.

Two other advantages to Debian: availability of pre-built apps in .deb format (e.g., Chromium ArchExtra is not current) and the opportunity to become expert in one of the two major versions of Linux Debian.

Debian and/or Fedora/RHEL/CentOS skills are more widely applicable professionally than Arch,Slackware, SuSe, etc.

Comment by Doug | April 19, 2011 | Reply

Thanks interesting points. As far as an update on my experiences with Aptosid, not much to say(which is a good thing). I havent been toying with the internals too much the past few weeks, just usingit and occasionally updating and adding minor software now and then. It has been running very reliablyin that time, and I havent had any update problems. The only issue I have is still the nvidia driver issueI spoke about above. Ive just been booting the .37 kernel for now. There were a number of optionsdiscussed for how to update the kernel and keep nvidia happy but I figured Id wait for a bit I have noneed for the very latest kernel at the moment and had some other more pressing things to do.

I did disable the daemons that handle cpu frequency (cpufrequtils & loadcpufreq) to see what it woulddo. Im honestly not sure exactly what they do and didnt research it, but for this desktop system I didnwant any throttling. I think it may have given me a little boost. And the Sensor Viewer that shows tempand fan speeds still works (it came already setup so left it in there), as does the CPU load monitor in thelxpanel tray.

Other than that not much to say its working great and I like the security bulletins.


Thanks for the insights. I think aptosid with Openbox & XFCE will be my next distro.

Mea culpa on the Arch/Chromium update issue. My mirror apparently has gone out of sync, which didnt suspect because the Arch Chromium package itself had been flagged as out of date. I switchedmirrors and all is well, despite the package flag.

Comment by Doug | April 20, 2011 | Reply

Looks like they are close to implement package signing in Arch.

Look at the beginning of begginers guide https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Beginners%27_Guide

This fact makes me glad :-)

Comment by BrainWorker | May 16, 2011 | Reply

20.

Brainworker said: Look at the beginning of begginers guide https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Beginners%27_Guide

If you referring to checking the md5sum of a downloaded iso, that is not new.To what are you referring?

Comment by Pablo | May 17, 2011 | Reply

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Oops, now that warning is gone!

On the top of begginers guide there was warning (written on red background): ArchLinux currentlyuses unsigned packages. Security of your system depends on package mirrors you use.

Comment by BrainWorker | May 17, 2011 | Reply

Brainworker, Im not sure what your purpose is you come across as someone who wants toconvince us that Arch is fine once package signing is implemented, eg:

And I dont think one defect in a system is enough to abandon it.

I disagree, yet this also shows that you have not absorbed the core of my complaint, where I saidrepeatedly that lack of package signing for a decade is just one symptom. The real issue is that theprimary Arch devs are irresponsible with their users security, and just adding signatures topackages wont change that reality. Using a distro where the devs dont care about your security andtreat your concerns dismissively is just as irresponsible. Its clear you are unwilling to give up Arch so be it. But youre certainly not convincing me of anything but the opposite of what youre saying.

The edits to the wiki in the last two days to add, then tame down, and then completely remove thewarning to new users is yet another example of this irresponsibility (you can see the edits in the May16, 2011 history). Now that Im no longer an Arch user, its rather humorous they sure do respondfast to any documentation of their lapses, just not to the lapses themselves. They continue to beunwilling to inform new users of the implications of using Archs package system. Their pride is farmore valuable to them than their integrity.

Once they do implement package signing, there will be many who will say Arch is now secure. Butthats merely wishful thinking. I now know the attitude and practices of the devs Arch is anirresponsible Linux distribution which IMO should be avoided on principle alone.

Kid yourself if you like, but not me.

Comment by IgnorantGuru | May 17, 2011 | Reply

FYI, in terms of Debian taking up less disk space than Arch, thats no accident and has nothing to do withLibreOffice (most of its bulk is in its base, not its individual programs).

The reason it takes up so much less space is that Arch installs the development headers for every singleinstalled package, but Debian doesnt, and instead expects you to install the corresponding -dev packagefor every package you want the headers for. Archs method is more convenient if you compile lots ofprograms outside the repositories (say, the AUR), or just like to develop using lots of disparate libraries.Debians method is better when you want to conserve disk space, or simply dont compile very manyprograms with dependencies. Both have their advantages and disadvantages.

Comment by Stan | May 18, 2011 | Reply

Thanks that makes sense.

As an update on the original post, updates have been going very trouble-free with Aptosid, and anysecurity problems that I receive alerts about have already been resolved by the time I update. The latestupdate also included new nvidia source with the latest kernel, and this corrected the nvidia problemreferenced in the OP (not sure if nvidia fixed it or aptosid/debian patched it). I had merely been using aslightly older .37 kernel until the issue was resolved, although there were easy fixes advertised beforethis. With rolling release, I find its often helpful to just wait on some updates. Ive been updating

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Aptosid about every two weeks with great results. Their forums have been friendly and helpful as well.

And of course I gave myself an introduction to Debian packaging and setup my PPA without muchhassle, making it all compatible with Ubuntu as well as Debian (and other Debian derivatives shouldwork as well). (I downloadeds Ubuntus latest liveISO to test with, and personally I definitely likeAptosid better than the direction Ubuntu has gone the live boot time alone was remarkably different,and I had stability problems with Ubuntu live.)

Comment by IgnorantGuru | May 20, 2011 | Reply

NICE article, I tried aptosid quickly but then I went back to the ArchWay. But aptosid is going back on mynewer spare PC, as soon as I get it.

But yes, OpenBSD / FreeBSD (is just so good, their Docs, userland bar-none is the best UNIX in the world)But sadly as you mentioned, the lack of good(new) Hardware devices support (no thx to the obviousgreedy-proprietary Manufactureres, and yes, I do mean ATI mostly !) is pushing me farther and fartheraway.No blame on FreeBSDs part here, cause we ALL know what MacOSX really is anyway ;)

But ya, Aptosid + Openbox looks like a winner.thx.

Comment by Rick | July 28, 2011 | Reply

Thanks for your comments. BSD did look promising. For me the main issue was definitely hardwaresupport, particularly my Brother printer/scanner. With a lot of work on the driver I might have beenable to get the printer working, but I suspect not the scanner. And that is pretty much a show stopper.Youre right about OSX! Apple is a parasite in this case not sharing their BSD hardware progress backto the community.

Aptosid has been working great for 4 months now, and beyond the initial problems I had (which wereresolved fairly promptly), I havent encountered much else. I do bi-monthly updates on average, and

they seem to do a good job with the stability of their rolling release, and the versions seem up-to-date.Ive definitely had fewer hassles since the switch.

Im not very excited about Linux anymore though. I think the quality, stability, and security of thekernel and major components like X are being eroded and spoiled by corporate interests, developeregos, and poor development practices. But the alternatives seem unripe for casual users who dont wantto lose functionality. I look forward to a good alternative thats cleaner and more modern in concept, bualso with a bit more old world quality in it. A lot of whats built for Linux today is built broken disappointing to see quality drop like that to a Microsoft level. Maybe Hurd will grow into this role.What Linux was to UNIX, we now need for Linux. Whos the next Linus?

Comment by IgnorantGuru | July 28, 2011 | Reply

its so ageold it isnt even funny anymore now.Even a 100 years ago, if you bought a FORD you could literally drive it away.and to this day, when you buy a new car you can simply drive to wherever u want.This is why TCP/IP (thanks to BSD/Unix) was Free in the 1st place.BIOS is not a means of travelling (PC-wise).Im sorry but when ppl buy a PC/Desktop the NetOS should come with it FREELY, otherwise cananyone explain to me how you could even USE your brand new PC without an OS ?Its called the Baiscs, a functional NetOS, and NO why should I pay for it, since obviously myPC/Desktop/Apple/Laptop/Microwave/Car/,, is USELESS without it. Call it firmware if youlike. but thats not the point. If I cant drive it. I dont want it.

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We have all been so snafud for years now, that, well, :)Sooo, you want Apps, on top of your basic ability to function ? fine, then pay for them !Let the Hardware manufactures give me a fully functioning PC/ whatever, including of course,a NetOS.so ya, Mr. Linus seems to have completely forgotten what the fair-fight was for in the 1st place.Hence, the *BSDs, and the Linuxs,to the rescue.Im still humbled by the fact that we can download and install thsese wonderfully FREE NetOSs.wow.Microsoft has got to leave, its as simple as that now.This will be the only way, that the Hardware Manufs will write ALL the drivers we could everneed for any UNIX/Linuxs. If they dont, they DO NOT sell their Hardware and they go out-of-business.I actually like Win7-64, its a pheeew,! to say the least. but yes to buyiing MSOffice, and NO to theNetOS.-that any hardware needs to function. All these hardware manufs gotta get on board thetrain, or be left behind.In the future that is.

Comment by Rick | July 29, 2011 | Reply

Nice article! In fact, you made me curious about aptosid and tried for few days. Unfortunately, for some

reason my wireless card (Intel 2200bg) keeps dropping connection and then refuses to reconnect unless Ireboot. I went on to the Forum on aptosid site and was glad there was already a topic someone postedabout the issue until I started reading it: Ive got to admit I was very discouraged with the way they treattheir users who simply asked a question they didnt like.http://aptosid.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=1662

Comment by Anonymous | September 9, 2011 | Reply

To an extent I agree I have noted that the behavior of some of the moderators and developers on theAptosid forum is sometimes out of line and disrespectful, sometimes engaging in the usual power tripsof moderators. Like any forum there are those who use it as a place to be abusive and arrogant. There

are also helpful people there. I have also noted that they tend to dismiss or explain away, rather thanaddress, some problems and bug reports. I suspect this is because they dont want to work on them orbe responsible for them. IMO they should simply not reply if theyre not interested in addressing theproblem, leaving it unanswered until someone is ready to actually address it. But at the same time Ihave to note that these same people do a lot of work to put Aptosid together and do address manyproblems, so you might call it work stress related, as unprofessional as it becomes at times.

The example you cite isnt the best example Ive seen, because the original poster seemed to immediatelyinflame the situation rather than simply sticking to the facts and giving the facts a chance. Then, in turn,the other participants didnt handle the attack well, and got into personalities instead of sticking to thefacts. Common forum behavior, but unpleasant.

I suggest you add a simple fact-based account of your experiences to that thread it looks like theycould use a second poster confirming the problem.

Also, in my experience with wireless drivers and random disconnects, the problem can be inunsuspected places. For example, in one installation (I think it was on Arch), using wicd to manage thedevice caused repeated disconnects (although wicd had always worked well for me on other systems).Using Network Manager instead of wicd resolved the problem, though I have no idea why that was. Soin my experience it is always valuable to experiment with different wireless managers and setupmethods. In this case, perhaps something in Aptosids wireless manager setup is triggering the problem(which may be related to a bug in the firmware), and this is why other distros arent seeing the problem

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Comment by IgnorantGuru | September 9, 2011 | Reply

Curious and looked at the thread and have a different reaction to it.The one who replied, slh had the wireless card himself and had it working and had no clues on which towork on (no error messages or debugging output).You cant expect someone to be clairvoyant.I find the demanding tone of nahn also a bit provoking.And lacking the understanding why some problems cant be solved.

Slh is a bit rude by formulating there is no problem when he in fact explains to mean by saying that, that tobe able to solve you have to have the exact parameters of the problem. It is a pity and a defeat when theatmosphere of support and collaboration is broken down by these kinds of confrontations.

Everybody in a supporting role loses his patience once in a while. Lets show some understanding for that.On the other hand, mods of fora should have some understanding for the feelings of frustration and thehelplessness of the new user and explain how the new user can provide the necessary info.

Comment by Pablo | September 9, 2011 | Reply

25.

slh is right: The whole essence of fixing a bug, is understanding what is broken and the key point tounderstanding that is finding a lever to reproduce it (or at least to pinpoint its general location througherror messages. The necessary information to fix the problem is simply missing.

And pipers reaction is understandable

Status: Offline

nahn wrote:

It looks like a firmware issue to me. Can anyone help? Thanks!

If this is a firmware issue, why are you taking it out on the devs or aptosid period ?

On the other hand, I have to agree with IgnorantGuruit is disappointing to me to see moderators using language like noobish, pathetic, troll, and yourkind clearly personal attacks from moderators on a frustrated user asking a technical question.

slam points out the to me childish behaviour of the nahn:He also left us developers without any of the technical information we asked for, in order to help him andhelp fixing possible bugs who might hit others.

nahn wrote:Haha, defensive, defensive, defensive! How pathetic! I have no time and interest for this kind of stupidity!Goodbye!

Piper answered

. Please let the door hit your Ass on the way out !, thats as rude as the thread-openers way.

Comment by schdrag | September 28, 2011 | Reply

26.

aptosid is a good distro :)I love kde but its good xfce

Comment by killjoy | October 15, 2011 | Reply

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Interesting, I am considering moving from Ubuntu to Arch because I have problems with DPKG packagingsystem. Lack of package signing is a big deal though.

Comment by Mad Wombat | October 21, 2011 | Reply

28.

Package signing has been in the [Testing] repo of Arch for a while now.

Comment by Anonymous | November 29, 2011 | Reply

29.

Package signing is no longer in testing since Jan-16, and is now out with pacman 4. This whole rant isobsolete :P.

Comment by Robert | February 11, 2012 | Reply

30.

I currently use Arch on my workstation at home. I enjoy how easy it is to get it up and running. I see youmoved onto Aptosid. I love the rolling release model and can deal with regressions, but now that its beenquite awhile, how are you finding Aptosid? Ive been trying to move away from Arch but its just so simpleto use, set up, and get running. I see that Aptosid has a KDE based ISO (which is the DE I use).

Comment by Mario | March 5, 2012 | Reply

Hi, I have replied to your comment here, as i was meaning to do an update thanks for the reminder.

If you find Arch easy, Im sure you can handle Aptosid. But the methods do vary so youll need to get toknow apt-get, etc if you dont have debian experience. Their users manual describes the installation andupgrade process well.

Comment by IgnorantGuru | March 6, 2012 | Reply

31.

Ive seen questions asked in previous posts about the difference between Debian testing and Debianunstable. Security updates is one difference: http://www.debian.org/security/faq#unstable


32.

I use a full Xfce Testing/Stable installation (Stable when testing is still to wild and Testing as it is gettingcloser to a freezing time) in my workstation and Sid in my laptop. I installed Sid from the Stable businesscard netinstall image (the only one that, in expert mode, provides the option of installing Sid). I installedonly the base system (just the kernel and system utilities) and then added other stuff like the X server andso on. You end up with a very clean system and it is more like the Arch way of building it

Comment by Koroshiya Itchy | February 13, 2013 | Reply

33.

thanks for this. Over the years 93 till now; Ive been around the distros, slack, suse, redhat etc and the pastfew years ubuntu and Gentoo. Totally fed up of Ubuntu these days. If I wanted Windows Id go buy it; And

Gentoo, though I like it a lot, gives me problems as I work on a ship and dont have good internet there.Going to give aptosid a try right now!Pat

Comment by pat mccormack | March 1, 2013 | Reply

34.

You do know this rant is obsolete since around Nov 2011 right?

Comment by Xatruch | June 14, 2013 | Reply

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