€¦ · 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 1 NATIONAL CAPITAL PLANNING COMMISSION + + + + + COMMISSION MEETING + + + + + OPEN SESSION + + + + + THURSDAY, APRIL 4

202-234-4433Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

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NATIONAL CAPITAL PLANNING COMMISSION + + + + + COMMISSION MEETING

+ + + + +

OPEN SESSION

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THURSDAY, APRIL 4, 2013

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The meeting convened in Room 5115, Suite500, 401 9th Street, N.W., Washington, D.C.20004, at 1:00 p.m., Preston Bryant, Jr.,Chairman, presiding.

NATIONAL CAPITAL PLANNING COMMISSION MEMBERSPRESENT:

PRESTON BRYANT, JR., Chairman

Presidential AppointeeHOWARD A. DENIS, U.S. House of RepresentativesJOHN M. HART, Presidential AppointeePETER MAY, Department of the InteriorROBERT E. MILLER, Mayoral AppointeeBRADLEY PROVANCHA, Department of DefenseGARTH SPENCER, United States Senate

HARRIET TREGONING, Office of the Mayor of the District of ColumbiaBETH WHITE, Presidential AppointeeMINA WRIGHT, General Services AdministrationNCPC STAFF PRESENT:

MARCEL C. ACOSTA, Executive DirectorANNE SCHUYLER, General CounselDEBORAH B. YOUNG, Secretary to the Commission


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A G E N D A

1 REPORT OF THE CHAIRMAN

Preston Bryant . . . . . . . . . . . . .4

1A ELECTION OF VICE CHAIRMAN AND

APPOINTMENT OF THIRD MEMBER TO

EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE

Preston Bryant . . . . . . . . . . . . .5

2 REPORT OF THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR

Marcel Acosta . . . . . . . . . . . . . .6

3 LEGISLATIVE UPDATE

Anne Schuyler . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10

4 CONSENT CALENDAR

4A JOINT BASE ANACOSTIA BOLLING,

WASHINGTON, D.C. . . . . . . . . . . . . 15

4B UNITED STATES MARINE CORPS BASE,

QUANTICO, VIRGINIA . . . . . . . . . . . 15

4C NATIONAL LAW ENFORCEMENT MUSEUM,

JUDICIARY SQUARE, NW. WASHINGTON, DC. . . 17

5 ACTION ITEMS WITH PRESENTATIONS

5B THE NATIONAL MALL, WASHINGTON, D.C.,

IRRIGATION, DRAINAGE, WATER COLLECTION,

AND RE-LANDSCAPING OF THE MALL

Jennifer Hirsch . . . . . . . . . . . . 20

5C ARLINGTON NATIONAL CEMETERY, ARLINGTON

COUNTY, VIRGINIA - MILLENNIUM PROJECT

Carlton Hart. . . . . . . . . . . . . .102

ADJOURNMENT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .178


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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 (1:01 p.m.)

3 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Good afternoon

4 and welcome. Welcome to the April 4th, 2013

5 meeting of the National Capital Planning

6 Commission. And if you would please, please

7 stand with me and join with me in the Pledge

8 of Allegiance.

9 (Pledge of Allegiance recited.)

10 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: We do have a

11 quorum, so we will proceed with the agenda as

12 has been publicly noticed.

13 [INSERT - AGENDA]

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1 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: I'll also note

2 for all in attendance that today's meeting is

3 being live-streamed on the NCPC website.

4 Agenda Item 1 is the Report of the

5 Chairman, and I have two items.

6 1. REPORT OF THE CHAIRMAN

7 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: One is noting

8 that the date for the September 5th, 2013

9 meeting is actually the first day of Rosh

10 Hashanah holiday, so if there's no objection

11 I'd recommend that we move that to the

12 following Thursday, which would be September

13 the 12th. Any objection? So, the September

14 meeting will be on September the 12th, not

15 September the 5th, in observance of the

16 holiday. So, if you will note that, we also

17 will note that change on the NCPC website.

18 The second item I just wanted to

19 make folks aware of is that the Partnership

20 for Public Service does an annual ranking of

21 the best places to work in the federal

22 government. And in the small agency category


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1 which is typically less than 100 employees,

2 NCPC ranked number five. So, I think that's a

3 credit to all the staff who work at NCPC who

4 do such good work, and who make this a very

5 special place to work, so congratulations to

6 the staff.

7 That ends my Report of the

8 Chairman. Any questions, comments?

9 Agenda Item 2 is Report of the

10 Executive Director. Mr. Acosta.

11 I'm sorry, excuse me. I have

12 another, Agenda Item 1A.

13 1A. ELECTION OF VICE CHAIRMAN AND

14 APPOINTMENT OF THIRD MEMBER TO

15 EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE

16 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: We have to, I

17 guess, reconstitute the Executive Committee

18 which consists of a Vice Chair, and then a

19 third member. Is there a nomination for Vice

20 Chair?

21 MEMBER WHITE: I'd like to move

22 Commissioner Miller as Vice Chair.


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1 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: It's been moved

2 and seconded that Commissioner Miller from the

3 District of Columbia continue serving as Vice

4 Chair of the Executive Committee -- Vice

5 Chair, yes, and -- as Vice Chair, and

6 appointment to the Executive Committee. All in

7 favor say aye.

8 (Chorus of ayes.)

9 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Opposed, no?

10 Congratulations.

11 MEMBER MILLER: Thank you for the

12 opportunity to continue serving.

13 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: And as Chair, I

14 get the privilege of appointing a third member

15 of the Executive Committee, and I would like

16 to continue serving alongside Peter May,

17 representing a federal agency, so thank you.

18 So, that concludes the Executive Director --

19 that includes the Chairman's report. Now,

20 Agenda Item 2 is the Report of the Executive

21 Director. I'm with it now, yes.

22 2. REPORT OF THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR


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1 MR. ACOSTA: Thank you, Mr.

2 Chairman, and good afternoon.

3 I just have three items that might

4 be of interest to the general public I'd like

5 to report on.

6 First of all, we had last week

7 about 100 interested stakeholders attend a

8 workshop here at NCPC to discuss redevelopment

9 opportunities in the Federal Triangle South

10 area, which forms the core of our Southwest

11 Eco District. Last week's event was organized

12 by GSA and Urban Land Institute, and began

13 with presentations from representatives from

14 GSA, NCPC, and the District of Columbia Office

15 of Planning.

16 The presentations were followed up

17 by breakout sessions on a number of topics,

18 including land use, cultural amenities, and

19 transactional structures. I know there are a

20 lot of people interested in what's happening

21 on the Southwest Eco District, so we have

22 posted videos of that event on our website for


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1 those of you who might be interested in

2 hearing presentations, including one from

3 Dorothy Robyn who is the Commissioner of GSA's

4 Public Building Service.

5 We also invite the public to view

6 and subscribe to our new Heights Master Plan

7 website which is linked to our NCPC home page.

8 The public can use this site to learn more

9 about the joint NCPC Office of Planning Study,

10 sign up for notices, view and post comments,

11 watch presentations, and follow our progress

12 as we go through the study. Again, you can

13 find that on our website.

14 And, finally, on Monday, April 22nd

15 at 6:30 p.m. here at NCPC, I will hold our

16 next speaker series event focusing on

17 activating our public realm. The event will

18 feature Helen Marriage, who is a Co-Director

19 and Founder of Artichoke, an organization that

20 produces innovative arts and events in the

21 public realm. Following her presentation, Ms.

22 Marriage will be joined by Garth Ross of the


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1 Kennedy Center, Jason Schupback of the

2 National Endowment for the Arts, and our own

3 Lucy Kempf for our panel discussion. So, we

4 hope the Commissioners, the members of the

5 public can attend. It will also be live

6 streamed, I believe.

7 So with that, Mr. Chairman, that

8 concludes my report for this month.

9 [INSERT - REPORT OF THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR]

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1 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Thank you.

2 Comments or questions to Mr. Acosta?

3 (No response.)

4 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Hearing none,

5 Agenda Item 3 is the Legislative Update from

6 Counsel, Anne Schuyler.

7 3. LEGISLATIVE UPDATE

8 MS. SCHUYLER: Thank you, Mr.

9 Chairman.

10 Congress was particularly busy in

11 March with items of interest to the

12 Commission. On March 13th, they introduced

13 Bill -- House of Representatives Bill 1126

14 which is known as the Eisenhower Memorial

15 Completion Act. That proposed Act extends the

16 expiration of the Eisenhower Memorial

17 Commission's legislative authority for three

18 years from the date of enactment, which right

19 now their authority is slated to expire on May

20 5th, 2013, next month.

21 The Bill also retroactively limits

22 the terms of members of the EMC to four years,


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1 which I think will lead to a number of

2 reappointments. The Bill requires selection of

3 a new memorial design as an alternative to the

4 design selected or submitted prior to the date

5 of enactment of the Bill, and it precludes use

6 of any remaining previously appropriated money

7 for construction.

8 The Bill was referred to the House

9 Committee on Natural Resources which convened

10 a public hearing on March 19th, this past

11 month. There were no representatives of the

12 Executive Branch of the federal government

13 that testified; however, those testifying

14 included Representative Darrell Issa, Susan

15 Eisenhower on behalf of the family, Arthur

16 Cotton Moore who represented himself and

17 proposed an alternative design, Justin Shubow

18 on behalf of the Civic Arts Society, and

19 General Carl Reddel who is the Executive

20 Director of the Eisenhower Memorial

21 Commission. The Bill at this point is awaiting

22 action by the Committee.


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1 A further item related to the

2 Eisenhower Memorial was found in the

3 Consolidated and Further Continuing

4 Appropriations Act, which is the Bill that

5 funded the federal government. That Act has

6 now become public law as of March 26th of this

7 year.

8 The Bill appropriates money for

9 the EMC for salaries and expenses, but no

10 money for capital construction. And it extends

11 the expiration date of the Commission's

12 legislative authority to September 30th, so

13 they are now authorized to proceed until

14 September 30th. Whether or not action from the

15 previous Bill will affect that date remains to

16 be seen.

17 Next, HR 217 which is an Act to

18 establish an American Latino Museum within the

19 Smithsonian. This was introduced on March

20 15th. It designates the Arts and Industries

21 Building as the location of the museum,

22 including an annex that will be constructed


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1 underground.

2 It authorizes the Smithsonian

3 Board of Regents in consultation with the

4 Secretary of Interior, the Commission of Fine

5 Arts, and NCPC to prepare plans and design,

6 renovate, and construct the museum, and it

7 requires the Smithsonian and the Department of

8 Interior to enter into an agreement on the

9 design and construction of the underground

10 annex. That Bill has been referred to

11 Committee for action.

12 Last, the House held hearings on

13 HR 588 which is the Vietnam Veterans Donor

14 Acknowledgment Act of 2013. The Bill

15 authorizes acknowledgment of donor

16 contributions inside the Visitors Center in a

17 form approved by the Secretary of Interior.

18 On March 14th, the House

19 Subcommittee on Public Lands and Environmental

20 Regulation held a public hearing on the Bill.

21 The National Park Service presented testimony

22 cleared by OMB through relative executive


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1 agencies to include NCPC.

2 National Park Service testimony

3 acknowledged the challenge of funding new

4 memorials, acknowledged the role recognition

5 of large donors plays in effective fund

6 raising, suggested donor recognition might be

7 appropriate given the current financial

8 environment, but subject to specific

9 guidelines, suggested a change in approach to

10 the Bill that donor recognition should be

11 considered for all memorials rather than just

12 one, as this proposed Bill does. And it

13 suggested development of uniform guidelines on

14 donor recognition, and offered NPS, NCPC, CFA,

15 and GSA assistance to the Subcommittee in

16 devising the guidelines.

17 Notwithstanding the excellent

18 testimony of the National Park Service, on

19 March 20th the Bill was discharged by the

20 Subcommittee and immediately reported out of

21 the Committee of Natural Resources with no

22 amendments. That concludes my report.


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1 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Thank you. Any

2 questions of Ms. Schuyler, or comments?

3 (No response.)

4 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Okay. Thank you,

5 Ms. Schuyler.

6 Agenda Item 4 is the Consent

7 Calendar, and there are currently two items on

8 the Consent Calendar.

9 4. CONSENT CALENDAR

10 4A JOINT BASE ANACOSTIA BOLLING

11 WASHINGTON, D.C.

12 4B UNITED STATES MARINE CORPS BASE,

13 QUANTICO, VIRGINIA

14 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Item 4A is the

15 new Sprint Wireless telecommunications

16 facility at Joint Base Anacostia Bolling. And

17 Agenda Item 4B is the new consolidated

18 elementary school at the U.S. Marine Corps

19 Base, Quantico. Are there any questions

20 regarding the Consent Calendar?

21 [INSERT - SPRINT NEXTEL MONOPOLE]

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1 4C NATIONAL LAW ENFORCEMENT MUSEUM

2 JUDICIARY SQUARE, NW. WASHINGTON, DC

3 MEMBER MAY: Mr. Chairman, I would

4 like to request that we move open agenda item

5 -- the first one, the National Law Enforcement

6 Museum revised final site and building plans

7 to the Consent Agenda. This is a project that

8 the Commission reviewed thoroughly in the past

9 and the only remaining issue was almost a

10 construction issue having to do with

11 coordination with the courts. And that issue

12 has been resolved or is on a path to

13 resolution, and the external appearance of th

14 is project has not changed since the

15 Commission reviewed it before. So, I think for

16 the sake of efficiency, in effect, there's no

17 one here to testify about it, I would think

18 that we could move to this to the Consent

19 Agenda.

20 [INSERT - NATIONAL LAW ENFORCEMENT MUSEUM]

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1 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: The last

2 remaining item is a construction issue which

3 is not in our purview really, exactly. And

4 there is no one who has signed up to speak for

5 this. Is there any objection among

6 Commissioners to taking Agenda Item 5A from

7 the open agenda and putting it on the Consent

8 Calendar, Consent Agenda?

9 MEMBER MAY: The very minor

10 questions we had about elimination of a fire

11 stair and exit door, I think are not

12 significant. The current `13 design is very

13 respectful of the `08 design. We would not

14 have major objections.

15 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Okay. Anyone? Ms.

16 Tregoning.

17 MEMBER TREGONING: Just a question.

18 Is it possible -- I wouldn't mind just getting

19 an update in terms of the presentation. Could

20 the Commissioners be sent a PDF of the

21 presentation that would have otherwise been

22 given so that we can --


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1 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Sure.

2 MEMBER TREGONING: -- be informed

3 about the progress that's being made on the

4 project?

5 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Yes.

6 MEMBER TREGONING: All right.

7 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: We'll see that

8 that happens. Any other comments, or I'm

9 assuming no objections. So that objection --

10 Open Agenda Item 5A will be included as -- on

11 the Consent Calendar as Item 4C. That's the

12 National Law Enforcement Memorial -- National

13 Law Enforcement Museum at Judiciary Square.

14 So, with those three items on the Consent

15 Calendar, is there a motion?

16 MEMBER MAY: I would move approval

17 of the Consent Calendar.


19 and seconded that the three items on the

20 Consent Calendar be approved. Any further

21 discussion?

22 (No response.)


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1 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Hearing none, all

2 in favor say aye.

3 (Chorus of ayes.)

4 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Opposed, no. It's

5 unanimously adopted. Thank you.

6 Moving to the Open Session Agenda,

7 Agenda Item 5B, 5A having been removed.

8 5 ACTION ITEMS WITH PRESENTATIONS

9 5B THE NATIONAL MALL,

10 WASHINGTON, DC

11 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: 5B is the

12 irrigation, drainage, water collection and re-

13 landscaping of the Mall, Phase II and III, and

14 we have Ms. Hirsch. Welcome.

15 MS. HIRSCH: Good afternoon, Mr.

16 Chairman and Members of the Commission. The

17 National Park Service has submitted

18 preliminary and final site development plans

19 for Phases II and III of the irrigation,

20 drainage, water collection, and re-landscaping

21 of the Mall.

22 This project addresses the center


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1 lawn panels located between the U.S. Capitol

2 and the Washington Monument, and is based on

3 recommendations in the National Mall Plan

4 which was adopted by the Park Service and this

5 Commission in 2010.

6 The Mall Plan included a

7 comprehensive vision to rehabilitate the mall

8 in order to sustain high levels of use,

9 accommodate permitted activities, protect Park

10 resources, and provide visitor services and

11 amenities.

12 One of the recommendations in the

13 Mall Plan included improving the condition of

14 the turf and soil on the mall, but also

15 widening the walkways in order to accommodate

16 the number of public events and national

17 celebrations that take place every year.

18 The project was divided into

19 multiple phases. Phase I was approved by this

20 Commission in February of 2011, and addressed

21 the three eastern most lawn panels located

22 between 3rd and 7th Street. And construction on


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1 this portion of the project was recently

2 completed prior to inauguration celebration

3 this past January. Phases II and III address

4 the remaining lawn panels located between 7th

5 and 14th Street.

6 So, images of the existing

7 conditions that you see here indicate the need

8 for the proposed project. With over 25 million

9 annual visitors and over 3,000 permitted

10 events, the Mall is intensively used for

11 national celebrations, festivals, First

12 Amendment demonstrations, and all types of

13 recreation.

14 Some of these events require

15 tents, equipment, fencing, and different types

16 of stages, and all of this can have a negative

17 impact on the condition of the turf, has

18 caused soil compaction and poor drainage over

19 the years. In addition, the turf is worn away

20 in several places and the dust can cause major

21 disruptions at times.

22 So, to address these conditions as


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1 part of Phase I, the Park Service developed

2 solutions to improve the overall health and

3 condition of the turf, and many of these

4 improvements will be implemented as part of

5 Phases II and III, and I'll just briefly

6 review what those are.

7 A granite curb will be installed

8 around the lawn panels to provide structural

9 support and containment for the soil. A gutter

10 system will be integrated into the curb so

11 that water will be directed into an

12 underground water management system. The

13 panels at the corners will be modified with a

14 15-foot radius, and then the top 18 inches or

15 so, the soil will be removed and re-engineered

16 with a more compact resistant variety. The

17 panels will also be regraded with a slight

18 crown at the center in order to facilitate

19 drainage.

20 Finally, two additional cisterns

21 will be installed below grade along with a

22 drip irrigation system. Two cisterns were


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1 already installed as part of Phase I, so with

2 Phases II and III the total water storage

3 capacity will be one million gallons.

4 Here you can see some images from

5 construction during Phase I, give you a sense

6 of scale of the project particularly with the

7 construction of the cisterns on the bottom

8 left. And then a detail of the granite curb

9 and the radius that will be constructed on the

10 lower right.

11 And these images show the end

12 result of Phase I. You can see the dramatic

13 improvement in the condition of the turf when

14 compared to panels that have not yet been done

15 just to the east of 3rd Street.

16 So, along with the physical

17 improvements, NPS has also issued an

18 Operations and Maintenance Manual that

19 provides new processes and permit requirements

20 for events in order to protect the turf. This

21 manual specifies how long the turf can be

22 covered, as well as a schedule for turf


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1 preparation and recovery time between

2 different events.

3 The Secretary of Interior has also

4 signed an order to enforce this Mall Turf

5 Manual, further the goals in the Mall Plan,

6 and guide NPS as it continues to rehabilitate

7 the Mall.

8 So, in combination, the Secretary

9 will order with the Mall Turf Manual, there

10 are tools that NPS will use to improve the

11 management of events on the mall. And they

12 both provide for special events and activities

13 to continue, but they will also protect the

14 landscape as a historic and natural resource.

15 So, the recent inauguration was a

16 test for the Phase I improvements, both the

17 physical improvements, as well as the

18 operational and management changes that the

19 Park Service is proposing. As required by the

20 new manual, prior to inauguration, as you see

21 here, protective coverings were placed over

22 all of the lawn panels. And, overall, NPS has


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1 reported that it was a success both from the

2 standpoint of introducing new practices to

3 event sponsors, but also the end result in the

4 condition of the mall turf. The photo on the

5 bottom right shows that even with the number

6 of people who attended inauguration, the turf

7 performed fairly well.

8 So, as I mentioned, while Phase I

9 was under construction, the National Mall Plan

10 was adopted and, therefore, the remaining

11 phases of the project, Phases II and III will

12 introduce recommendations from that plan

13 regarding increasing the paved area on the

14 mall to accommodate the public events.

15 So, in March of 2012, the

16 Commission -- this Commission provided

17 comments on the three schemes that NPS was

18 proposing for widening the walkways. In some

19 locations, NPS was proposing at that time to

20 widen the walkways to as much as 146 feet. And

21 while the Commission supported the Park

22 Service's efforts to rehabilitate the mall and


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1 accommodate large events, the Commission asked

2 for additional information in order to

3 evaluate the extent to which the walkways

4 needed to be widened.

5 Since receiving the Commission's

6 comments, NPS has held several interagency

7 meetings with NCPC Staff, the Commission of

8 Fine Arts, as well as the District of Columbia

9 State Historic Preservation Office and the

10 results of these meetings basically indicated

11 that the general consensus was to minimize

12 widening the walkways in order to maximize the

13 continuous green of the mall which is an

14 important character defining feature, and to

15 preserve use towards the Capitol and the

16 Monument, the Washington Monument.

17 In addition to the interagency

18 consultation in determining how and where to

19 widen the walkways in the mall, NPS also

20 analyzed the requirements of typical events

21 that are held every year. And this diagram

22 shows that the highest intensity of use was


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1 during the summer months, and also located in

2 the panels between 7th and 14th Street. The

3 largest area in the center of the diagram

4 indicates the time period when the Smithsonian

5 Folk Life Festival takes place every year in

6 the summer.

7 So, essentially, this analysis

8 confirmed that the existing configuration of

9 the walkways between 7th and 14th Street

10 couldn't meet the needs of all of the events

11 without strategically widening them.

12 In determining the appropriate

13 width for the walkways, NPS looked at

14 historical plans, as well as the data on the

15 typical size of tents and equipment that are

16 usually placed on the mall to arrive at their

17 proposed scheme. And in order to accommodate

18 some of the largest events and the tents, and

19 also accommodate circulation for pedestrians

20 and emergency vehicles, NPS determined that

21 105 feet was the minimum size required that

22 you can see in the sections on the lower


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1 right.

2 So, the proposed design basically

3 calls to widen the walkways along the 9th and

4 12th Street corridors to 105 feet. That's in

5 this location and this location here. The

6 other walkways will be taken from -- I'm

7 sorry. Oops, lost my place here, sorry. The

8 other walkways will be taken from 40 feet to

9 60 feet. Two non-turf areas also will be

10 created to the north and south of the center

11 lawn panels just directly adjacent to the

12 Metro Station in this area, and then directly

13 to the north of the center lawn panels in this

14 location. This will be 146 feet. And then the

15 smaller lawn panels that are located to the

16 west of 7th Street will be combined into one

17 larger lawn panel.

18 So, as the Olmsted Junior Plan in

19 the 1930s, this design establishes lawn panels

20 of approximately equal size and a regular

21 pattern of 60-foot wide walkways with two

22 wider areas to accommodate larger tents and


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1 structures. It does require some changes to

2 the management of events, but the majority of

3 events will be able to be accommodated without

4 impacting the turf.

5 CFA has recently approved the

6 plans for this project and it noted in its

7 comments how the proposal balances the

8 protection of the historic landscape with the

9 accommodation of public events.

10 So, here you can see some

11 renderings. This is the proposal along the

12 12th Street corridor where the walkway will be

13 widened to 105 feet. And then here just past

14 the 9th Street corridor where it will also be

15 widened to 105 feet, and this gives a good

16 idea of how the views and the continuous green

17 along the mall will be maintained. It also

18 provides a sense of how the regrading of the

19 panels accentuates the green along the mall.

20 So, with that, it's the Executive

21 Director's recommendation to approve the

22 preliminary and final site development plans


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1 for Phases II and III of the turf and soil

2 reconstruction on the mall, and to note that

3 the project takes into account recommendations

4 from the National Mall Plan to widen the non-

5 turf areas on the mall in order to improve

6 accommodations for large public events, and

7 national celebrations. That concludes my

8 presentation.

9 [INSERT - THE MALL - PHASE II]

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1 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Questions? We do

2 have public comment, but prior to going to

3 public comment, are there any immediate

4 questions for Ms. Hirsch?

5 (No response.)


7 let's go straight to public comment. Now, we

8 have two signed up. First is Dr. Judy Scott

9 Feldman of the National Coalition to Save Our

10 Mall. And, Dr. Feldman, oh, there. I'm sorry.

11 Thank you, Dr. Feldman, you have five minutes.

12 [INSERT - LIST OF REGISTERED SPEAKERS]

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1 DR. FELDMAN: Good morning,

2 Chairman Bryant and Commissioners. I'm Judy

3 Scott Feldman, Chair and President of the

4 National Coalition to Save Our Mall.

5 The Coalition is a non-profit all

6 volunteer organization founded in 2000

7 dedicated to long range comprehensive

8 visionary planning for the National Mall to

9 support the American public's continued use of

10 this symbolic space in the heart of the

11 Capitol and the nation.

12 The Coalition fully supports the

13 National Park Service's goals for turf grass

14 restoration. Our testimony today focuses on

15 how this project fits with the larger proposal

16 by NCPC and other federal and District of

17 Columbia agencies for this mall area, as

18 described on page 13 of the Executive

19 Director's recommendation.

20 The EDR notes that the 2011

21 Federal Triangle Storm Weather Drainage Study

22 which I have here recommends the creation of


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1 cisterns beneath the mall to collect storm

2 water runoff and prevent future flooding such

3 as devastated the Federal Triangle and mall

4 area in 2006.

5 As noted in the EDR, these flood

6 control facilities might be constructed in the

7 future if funding becomes available. We would

8 like this Commission to know that, in fact,

9 there is an ongoing privately led effort to

10 make the flood reservoir idea a reality. This

11 effort is being led by Albert H. Small, a

12 local developer and philanthropist, planner

13 and architect, Arthur Cotton Moore, and the

14 National Coalition to Save Our Mall.

15 Since Summer 2012, we have been

16 briefing federal and DC officials and

17 agencies, Congressional staff and the public

18 on this concept. We have found much

19 enthusiasm. Last Sunday, the Washington Post

20 published an editorial supporting the idea, a

21 copy of which we've included with our

22 testimony.


Page 35

1 The idea is this, construct under

2 the mall a hybrid parking garage that does

3 double duty as a storm water reservoir.

4 Include in the parking separate spaces for

5 cars and tour buses, also include a separate

6 bottom level cistern to collect rainwater and

7 groundwater from nearby buildings. This

8 facility would contribute to creating a

9 sustainable and resilient mall for the future.

10 The location for the facility

11 proposed in a study conducted by Dewberry

12 Engineering is between 9th and 12th Street.

13 Entrances and exits for the parking facility

14 could be placed in the 9th and 12th Street

15 tunnels to minimize intrusions on the

16 sensitive mall landscape.

17 Underground garages in cities

18 around the world and the United States provide

19 visitor access while creating car-free city

20 streets. Here in Washington, the National

21 Cathedral bus and car garage is a successful

22 example.


Page 36

1 One model of a hybrid facility

2 that is both parking garage and flood

3 reservoir is this example in Rotterdam. Our

4 proposal hybrid facility solves three major

5 needs, a reservoir able to store 34 million

6 gallons of storm water, cisterns to supply a

7 reliable source of water for irrigation of the

8 grass, as well as all mall area gardens,

9 trees, fountains, and more. The Park Service

10 cisterns in contrast will provide only 30

11 percent of the water needed for the grass

12 alone, and no flood protection, and parking

13 for more than 1,000 tour buses and cars. An

14 additional benefit is completion of the Park

15 Service's turf grass as the green roof of the

16 facility.

17 Revenue from the self-funding

18 parking component will help offset the capital

19 cost of construction. We are looking at

20 public-private partnerships as a model to

21 develop, fund, and complete this proposal.

22 Additional benefits could include


Page 37

1 restrooms, a mall visitor center, showers and

2 restroom facilities for bus drivers,

3 integration with Metro and Capitol Bikeshare,

4 a security office, and an educational

5 demonstration of this innovative water

6 treatment facility.

7 These features are among the

8 amenities suggested during our meetings with

9 the Smithsonian, the Museum, Destination DC,

10 and others. You are looking at Draft 30 of our

11 proposal. Each meeting has helped this

12 proposal evolve.

13 Dirt from the mall excavation can

14 be used to create an earthwork storm water

15 park or ecological cascade on East Potomac

16 Park to collect, cleanse, and store storm

17 water until it can be released into the

18 Potomac.

19 Everyone benefits. Visitors will

20 find easier access to the mall's museums and

21 cultural events, much needed as shown in the

22 Fox 5 WTTG television news story last Sunday.


Page 38

1 Federal and District agencies can get tour

2 buses off neighborhood streets where they

3 cause congestion and pollution. There will be

4 no more need for ugly piecemeal flood measures

5 such as this sandbags lining Metro vents

6 outside EPA headquarters, and the federal and

7 District agencies will get the much needed

8 flood protection facility as part of the

9 larger project developed and funded by a

10 public-private partnership.

11 Our proposal still has a way to

12 go, including cost-benefit analysis, traffic

13 studies, and engineering studies, but it is

14 not a pipe dream. With this hybrid facility,

15 the mall will be a model of sustainability and

16 resiliency in the heart of the Capitol and the

17 nation.

18 This is, in our view, the kind of

19 long range comprehensive visionary proposal we

20 need on the mall to sustain the symbolic

21 landscaped crucial role in our nation's civic

22 life in the 21st century. We believe, as well,


Page 39

1 that private sector initiatives such as this

2 will become an important tool for planning and

3 infrastructure upgrades for Washington and the

4 mall in the future. Thank you.

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Page 40

1 [INSERT - WASHINGTON POST EDITORIAL]

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Page 41

1 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Thank you very

2 much.

3 DR. FELDMAN: Any questions?

4 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Ms. Tregoning.

5 MEMBER TREGONING: Dr. Feldman, you

6 mentioned that a public-private partnership

7 and the potential for parking revenue to

8 finance this project. Are you saying that's

9 possible in whole or in part?

10 DR. FELDMAN: It's probably in part

11 the parking revenue. We're actually in the

12 process of talking with a variety of agencies

13 and organizations about the public-private

14 partnership idea.

15 Mr. Small was working with Patton

16 Boggs who also had some experts looking at it,

17 but really the questions are -- we don't know

18 the answer to that. It's been suggested,

19 though, that the parking and, in particular,

20 the bus parking could provide a considerable

21 amount of income. Also, restaurants or other

22 revenue-producing elements could add to that.


Page 42

1 But, frankly, we don't know. We don't know the

2 cost because the cost of the parking, simply

3 a car parking garage which Dewberry did for

4 Mr. Small back in 2011, a two-story, 1,000 car

5 garage was $60 million. But a cost estimate of

6 this flood reservoir with new sewer lines on

7 Constitution Avenue was 400 and some million,

8 so I think we're somewhere probably in between

9 that but we don't know yet. But we actually

10 had a meeting this morning, and we're having

11 another one tomorrow to try to get, again,

12 privately funded data to evaluate these

13 questions because we really don't know that

14 it's feasible yet until we do that.

15 MEMBER WRIGHT: I have a question.

16 Is the water -- is the 400 million exclusive

17 of the water treatment facility in East

18 Potomac Park?

19 DR. FELDMAN: The 400 million, and

20 I'm not sure I read this correctly, if anyone

21 has a better understanding of the data in

22 this, but the 400 plus million comes from this


Page 43

1 study. This study which evaluated the storm

2 water problem proposed simply a large

3 reservoir under the mall. It would do nothing

4 else. But the cost included the cost of

5 running new sewer lines under Constitution,

6 and using pumps to pump the water up into

7 Constitution Avenue. And the cost of all of

8 that seemed extraordinary for something that

9 might not happen that often. So, what we've

10 tried to do is find a way to mix them, but we

11 haven't got that cost yet.

12 MEMBER WRIGHT: So, my question --

13 my follow-up is can the two things be

14 uncoupled?

15 DR. FELDMAN: Well, that's actually

16 a good question.

17 MEMBER WRIGHT: Yes, what's the

18 plan? Could you stop and achieve the objective

19 by not touching East Potomac Park? Could you

20 stop with a modified facility under the mall?

21 DR. FELDMAN: Yes. Essentially,

22 what we're trying to do as we've met, and


Page 44

1 we've met with FEMA and with EPA twice, is

2 listen to what they're saying about the water

3 issues. And the question we got from Congress

4 was what are you going to do with all that

5 dirt? And the question from EPA is what are

6 you going to do with all that water? So, we

7 said well we'll put the dirt on East Potomac

8 Park, and we'll make it into a waterfall that

9 treats the water.

10 So, again, these are evolving

11 ideas. We've been told that they are feasible

12 but, again, the question is are they fundable?

13 So, we don't know, but the whole idea here is

14 we've been just consulting with everyone to

15 find out what everyone from environmental

16 water experts, Department of Environment in

17 DC, the American Bus Association. We've been

18 trying to put together something that might

19 get maximum support, and also bring in maybe

20 maximum revenue to help fund it. But, again,

21 there are a lot of unanswered questions.

22 MEMBER WRIGHT: Okay, thank you.


Page 45

1 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Mr. Provancha,

2 and then Mr. Hart.

3 MEMBER PROVANCHA: To be crystal

4 clear, are you asking for, as opposed to the

5 little bit more conservative National Park

6 Service plan which has a million gallon

7 capacity and is focused solely on irrigation

8 as opposed to flood control, are you saying

9 that your project in lieu of, or is there a

10 hybrid alternative for this hybrid facility?

11 Could the Park Service proceed in your mind

12 with their project and this could be on a

13 smaller scale, a follow-on project, maybe a

14 little bit more conservative --

15 DR. FELDMAN: We have asked the

16 Park Service about this, and we started

17 briefing the Park Service actually in January

18 of 2012. But what we've understood from the

19 Park Service is that if the turf grass moves

20 ahead, we will still be able to accommodate

21 this facility. So, however that's worked out,

22 I think that's something that the Park Service


Page 46

1 would work out with whoever was to build the

2 thing.

3 MEMBER PROVANCHA: It seems like

4 your proposed project as the hybrid facility

5 focuses on the flood control, with is perhaps

6 not adequately addressed in the current

7 design.

8 DR. FELDMAN: Actually, if I tell

9 you the truth of how it started, I'm

10 addressing the EDR because I'm testifying

11 before NCPC. The way it started is Mr. Albert

12 Small came to me and said I want the Coalition

13 to help me. No one believes in parking, and I

14 would like car parking on the mall. We

15 convinced him that it needed to have bus

16 parking so that it could really fulfill the

17 needs of larger groups. And when this became

18 clear that it was looking for something, it

19 looked to us as though the flood control is

20 the truly existential threat that is not being

21 addressed, but maybe we could address it. So,

22 we put the three things together.


Page 47

1 MEMBER PROVANCHA: Got you.

2 DR. FELDMAN: It really started

3 with parking, and for the National Coalition

4 to Save Our Mall, we believe the goal is to

5 bring more people to the mall so that they can

6 better understand and benefit from the mall.

7 And how we do that parking is one way, whether

8 it's bus, or car, or Metro, or whatever. So,

9 we did agree with Mr. Small's concept that the

10 mall is a people's place and that got us

11 going.

12 MEMBER PROVANCHA: I think the Park

13 Service would agree with that, it is a people

14 place.

15 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: It's my

16 understanding that action on this EDR does not

17 preclude something grander should it ever come

18 to fruition and be proposed.

19 MEMBER MAY: If you're going to

20 build a $400 million project it kind of dwarfs

21 the $15 million project, I mean, if that's

22 what's decided in the long run.


Page 48

1 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Mr. Hart.

2 MEMBER HART: I want to thank you

3 for bringing this to the Commission. I think

4 it's an exciting idea. It proposes solutions

5 to a couple of real tough problems. Obviously,

6 it's not as easy as it might appear, and I

7 know the Park Service would have a whole lot

8 of concerns that would need to be addressed,

9 but this is a very forward-looking idea, and

10 I applaud you and your organization for

11 bringing it to us as a thoughtful enterprise.

12 DR. FELDMAN: Thank you very much.

13 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Mr. Miller.

14 MEMBER MILLER: Thank you, Mr.

15 Chairman. I just had a couple of questions. Is

16 the -- you reference the 2011, two stories

17 underground just for cars that Mr. Small, I

18 guess, commissioned. What is the current

19 proposal, is it two stories, is it three

20 stories, how many buses, and how many cars?

21 DR. FELDMAN: Right now it's about

22 three stories. When we started it was 1,100


Page 49

1 cars and 120 buses. The more we've met with DC

2 entities the more it's becoming more and more

3 buses and fewer and fewer cars. We figure also

4 if we build for more buses, if you need more

5 cars you can always fit a car in a bus parking

6 lot but you can't put a bus in a car parking

7 lot. There's also been the suggestion that

8 maybe there could be additional parking

9 underneath the waterfall and a pedestrian

10 bridge over the pipes connecting. There are a

11 lot of ideas out there, and that's why I think

12 we've been -- we wanted to tell you about

13 this, but also we've been seeking so much

14 advice. This is going to probably be pared

15 down, modified, tightened up in one way or

16 another. Did I answer your question?

17 MEMBER MILLER: Yes, but the

18 current proposal which is Draft 30 you said is

19 three stories, has the flood and irrigation,

20 and it has 1,100 cars and --

21 DR. FELDMAN: Well, what Carol has

22 done here, and I know it's a little hard to


Page 50

1 see, but see the orange area running down the

2 middle, she's conceiving that like the

3 connection between the National Gallery East

4 Wing and West Wing under the street, so

5 originally when Arthur Cotton Moore drew it,

6 we have the visitor center kind of in front of

7 the castle. Now we're thinking more of putting

8 the visitor amenities in an aisle connecting

9 the North and South Mall. As I said, this

10 changes. Every draft is totally a different

11 one, but this is -- so, I don't know how many

12 cars, I don't know how many buses, but right

13 now it can hold about 1,500 total. That's just

14 where we are right now.

15 MEMBER MILLER: Okay. And just one

16 final question, Mr. Chairman. In terms of the

17 car parking need, do you happen to know how

18 much parking is underground, the museum's,

19 that isn't made currently available due to

20 federal policy, how many underground parking-

21 DR. FELDMAN: A lot of that was

22 shut down decades ago under the Air and Space


Page 51

1 Museum and others. When I was a kid we used to

2 park underneath but that was a long time ago,

3 so we -- but we don't know. It's used for

4 staff parking by and large. And what's been

5 happening is increasingly -- I mean, when I

6 was a kid, the roads in the middle of the Mall

7 were still roads and we used to park there, as

8 well. So, increasingly we've been taking away

9 the visitor parking and increasing staff

10 parking and security parking. So now when you

11 go up and down the Mall, you'll see plenty of

12 parking but it's all restricted in one kind or

13 another. So, the 1966 Skidmore Owings Merrill

14 Plan, National Mall Plan called for under the

15 mall parking. And the Smithsonian 1982 plan

16 called for under the mall parking, but there's

17 never been the funding or the coordination to

18 have them happen, so what we're essentially

19 doing is kind of giving back what's been

20 taken. And we did find that the Smithsonian

21 and staff and Congress very much would like to

22 see some car parking because they get calls


Page 52

1 from their constituencies saying I want to

2 come to the Mall but I can't get there with my

3 three kids and my grandmother and so on, so

4 there's a, in our view, an unmet need by the

5 public which doesn't really have a say in some

6 of the policy making that we think this could

7 help resolve.

8 MEMBER MILLER: I appreciate that.

9 I just was trying to get at the unused

10 underground parking that is there already. Do

11 we know what the universe is, hundreds of

12 spaces?

13 DR. FELDMAN: Well, we've got the

14 Smithsonian. I mean, they'd be happy to

15 provide information, but I don't think it's

16 hundreds.

17 MEMBER MILLER: Okay, thank you.

18 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Mr. May.

19 MEMBER MAY: Okay. I think I just

20 wanted to have some comment on it since it's

21 all about doing something on Park land. And

22 what I can say at this moment is that we have


Page 53

1 gotten some briefings on it. We have not taken

2 official -- an official position on this

3 specific proposal.

4 I will say that the National Mall

5 Plan did consider including parking under the

6 mall and that was dismissed in the National

7 Mall Plan, so if we were to adopt something

8 like this, we'd have to go back and modify the

9 Mall Plan.

10 We also previously reviewed a

11 similar proposal from Mr. Small in the early

12 2000s, and rejected it at that time for

13 reasons that are probably obvious to the

14 members of this Commission, the impacts on the

15 ground, the fact that we're trying to focus

16 people away from bringing cars to the mall,

17 and so on. But we -- as I said, we have not

18 taken an official position on this.

19 There are certainly a lot of

20 complications associated with this, everything

21 from an act of Congress if you put in a

22 visitor center because they're currently


Page 54

1 prohibited in this area, to I don't know what

2 you'd have to do to modify the tunnels that

3 run through, whether they're subject to

4 interchange justifications --

5 DR. FELDMAN: Actually, Dewberry

6 chose this area because there's a pedestrian

7 tunnel and a steam tunnel that Arthur Cotton

8 Moore assures me are easily moved.

9 MEMBER MAY: Okay. I don't think

10 it's a matter of engineering as much as it is

11 the legal process that you have to go through

12 if you're going to modify roads that are part

13 of the interstate system. I don't know if

14 they're part of the interstate system or not,

15 but those -- that's another complication.

16 In any case, lots of -- lots and

17 lots of complications, not to mention the fact

18 that this is -- the whole idea of this

19 particular solution to the downtown flooding

20 problem is not -- you state in your

21 presentation that it was recommended. It was

22 one of several that was considered, and it was


Page 55

1 not the least costly, it was just one of

2 several. And I don't think there was a value

3 judgment about what was the most sensible,

4 except that there are some that were a lot

5 more expensive than this that they were not

6 going to be considered. But simply improving

7 the infrastructure and building a new pumping

8 facility would have been less expensive than

9 this by a factor of 10 percent. So, I mean,

10 there are lots of different solutions to that

11 that could make more sense in the long run.

12 I will say, also, that in terms of

13 water that's collected, the ways to get rid of

14 it, what was I think envisioned in the storm

15 water study was -- or at least what I

16 understood it in the briefings that I've

17 gotten was that the idea was simply to hold it

18 to the point where it could be pumped into the

19 system and processed much like the Clean

20 Rivers project which is building giant holding

21 tanks under the Anacostia River, and then

22 eventually the Potomac where the water is just


Page 56

1 held until it can be processed at Blue Plains.

2 So, it may not be as complicated as doing yet

3 another project on Park land.

4 DR. FELDMAN: Well, I did have to

5 cut this. We'd be happy to come back to show

6 you the full 55 slides, but all of those

7 questions have come up, and they actually --

8 most of them are addressed because we met

9 with, early on with DC Water, and DC

10 Department of Environment, and EPA, as I said,

11 twice. The question of holding the storm

12 water, it's going to be dirty stuff.

13 EPA doesn't really like the idea

14 or DC Water doesn't really like the idea of

15 still getting the water. It goes to Blue

16 Plains. One thing I didn't mention, I don't

17 think, is that the water from the -- a lot of

18 these things we've come up with only as a

19 result of meeting with all these different

20 entities and getting their objections, and

21 trying to resolve them in one facility as

22 opposed to putting bathrooms in one place, and


Page 57

1 the -- but one thing that did come up is that

2 19 percent of the water treated at Blue Plains

3 is groundwater, 19 percent is relatively clean

4 water that groundwater could be used for

5 irrigation. So, that's when -- and it was

6 after we met with staff here we said well,

7 we're going to put the irrigation in. So,

8 thank you.

9 But, again, this -- when it

10 started it was a parking garage, and then it

11 became flood reservoir. But what you're seeing

12 really is the result of probably 35 meetings,

13 and I've got five more tomorrow, and I've got

14 one in about an hour with everybody who we

15 think would have an interest, including all

16 the agencies that were flooded.

17 National Archives spent $3 million

18 on repair from just the flood of 2006, one

19 building, $3 million. So, again, what we think

20 is a good study, we think this is a good

21 study. We took it as a premise that this is a

22 good study, and we've used it as the base. So,


Page 58

1 if we turn -- if it turns out this isn't,

2 that's another problem. But 14 agencies worked

3 on it, and we figured with a good engineering

4 firm this must be solid.

5 MEMBER MAY: I'm not questioning

6 the study. I'm just saying that this is only

7 one of several recommendations.

8 DR. FELDMAN: Well, there were six

9 recommendations, but it came down to two, and

10 this is one of the two, yes.

11 MEMBER MAY: Right. And the other

12 one was the less expensive one. Right?

13 DR. FELDMAN: Well, but the other

14 one would pump the water, it wouldn't hold the

15 water.

16 MEMBER MAY: Right.

17 DR. FELDMAN: So, again, we're

18 dealing with a different green approach. Do we

19 just pump it into the sewer, or do we hold it

20 and then maybe treat it. So, again --

21 MEMBER MAY: A facility that's

22 designed to treat water, or do we create


Page 59

1 another one on Park land to treat the water is

2 what you're suggesting.

3 DR. FELDMAN: Yes, as an

4 educational component of the totality.

5 MEMBER MAY: That's really --

6 that's an essential question.

7 DR. FELDMAN: Well, DOE and --

8 Department of Environment and DC Water, and

9 I think the -- no, I can't say because I

10 haven't -- really want an educational

11 component. They want something where people

12 can come and learn, and where better could you

13 learn about new approaches if it's right on

14 the mall.

15 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Well, rather than

16 debating a project that's not before us, let

17 me go to --

18 DR. FELDMAN: Yes.

19 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: -- Ms. Tregoning

20 for the last comment so that we can go on to

21 other public commentors. Ms. Tregoning.

22 MEMBER TREGONING: I will just


Page 60

1 suggest that, Dr. Feldman, you have done us a

2 public service to bring this matter to the

3 Commission, and that the essence of

4 sustainability is to spend a dollar and to get

5 $4 worth of benefit. And I think this is a

6 proposal that solves a lot of problems that

7 various agencies around the city have

8 identified over the years, bus parking,

9 irrigation, storm water management, you know,

10 et cetera, and that, you know, I think it's an

11 intriguing idea that's worth looking at.

12 Now, I realize it calls for some

13 very unnatural things, cooperation among

14 different government agencies.

15 (Laughter.)

16 MEMBER TREGONING: And cooperation,

17 you know, intergovernmentally among different

18 levels of government which, you know, we know

19 how difficult that is, but I don't know that

20 the shear difficulty of it is enough to say

21 that we shouldn't try it. You know, I would

22 like to maybe have some further conversations


Page 61

1 and look at the financing plan.

2 I mean, if it turns out that, you

3 know, what we have is a very severe storm

4 water problem that affects not just our

5 combined sewer overflows but we are -- the

6 city has the strictest storm water permit in

7 the country that requires not the detention

8 but the permanent retention of water on site

9 for buildings and streets kind of going

10 forward, so the idea that you would release it

11 to Blue Plains is not even on the table, not

12 even in the cards, you know, in the future.

13 And there'll be very steep fees levied by DC

14 Water and the Department of the Environment

15 over all the impervious surface of the city,

16 so this could also generate credits that could

17 be sold to development so that that retention

18 could happen.

19 So, I think actually there are

20 some elements of this that are revenue-

21 producing that we haven't fully explored. So,

22 that's my only last comment for Dr. Feldman,


Page 62

1 but I think I have some questions for the Park

2 Service once we're finished with the other

3 public witnesses.

4 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Okay.

5 MEMBER TREGONING: Thank you.

6 DR. FELDMAN: Could I just make one

7 comment?

8 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Last comment,

9 we've got to go.

10 DR. FELDMAN: Okay. Because of all

11 the experiences I've had, I strongly hear from

12 people that this kind of approach might work

13 elsewhere, where we could get parking off the

14 streets, maybe cars into peripheral areas, and

15 at the same time have the flood water area.

16 So, it's -- what I'm hearing as I talk with

17 neighborhoods and different agencies is maybe

18 this is an approach that could be considered

19 elsewhere, as well. Thank you.


21 much. Returning to the EDR proper, we have one

22 more public presenter, Mr. Lindsley Williams.


Page 63

1 Welcome, Mr. Williams.

2 MR. WILLIAMS: Good afternoon, Mr.

3 Chairman. Thank you for --

4 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Three minutes.

5 Nice to see you.

6 MR. WILLIAMS: Three minutes, it

7 won't even take that, I think.

8 Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman,

9 Members of the Commission, staff and everybody

10 here at NCPC. I'm appearing today to ask you

11 to do something much in the same spirit as Dr.

12 Feldman. I'm doing something that I don't

13 think I've ever done before, which is to make

14 a recommendation that the Commission adopt the

15 EDR as written above and below the line, no

16 changes. I usually come in and say please

17 delete this, please delete that. The EDR is

18 solid and ready to go. And it says it will be

19 open to adjustments so that as opportunities

20 present themselves, we will figure out a way,

21 as long as it doesn't change what you'll see

22 on the surface to see what we can do.


Page 64

1 So, what I want to do is to take

2 you back a few months when the Commission took

3 up the environment element. I came in at the

4 last minute in that. Mr. Miller will remember

5 saying why didn't you speak up earlier? And I

6 asked if we could figure out a way to express

7 the notion that federal lands when they are

8 not needed for federal purposes, for buildings

9 and for other build stuff, could possibly

10 serve as a sort of a reservoir to receive the

11 things that Ms. Tregoning just spoke of very

12 eloquently, to contain the runoffs.

13 And as I looked at this EDR, I saw

14 a project which proposed cisterns which will

15 capture enough water to do about 30 percent of

16 the job on the site of many, many acres

17 surrounded by a city that is largely

18 impervious. And I'm saying to what extent can

19 we multipurpose below the surface so that we

20 can develop credits, monetize it, help defray,

21 maybe build a larger cistern in the process,

22 maybe put in a little deeper soil that would


Page 65

1 be more absorbent so that there would sort of

2 be a cistern above it all, as well as real

3 cisterns below. And that was the essence of

4 what I asked to be done in the environment

5 element, having an issue -- but I know it will

6 be forthcoming, and I'm really just trying to

7 use this meeting to remind the Commission of

8 the opportunities that are presented by

9 projects such as this, and even the project

10 that follows for the Millennium site over in

11 Virginia. The water from that, the water from

12 this, that all goes underneath the Wilson

13 Bridge. It all has to be contained one way or

14 another, and it contributes to sustainability.

15 So, what I would like to do is

16 just bring this as a reminder, ask you to do -

17 - make no changes. And as you go forward

18 thinking about this and other projects, I'm

19 going to just suggest something that I sort of

20 thought about as I was writing it, which is

21 that we try to develop sites across our

22 jurisdiction in a way that is runoff neutral,


Page 66

1 so that we try not to have more water go off

2 the site than would have happened if it had

3 been left alone, or developed in some fashion.

4 Thank you very much, my time is up.


6 much, very much appreciate it. That ends the

7 public comment section, so we'll return the

8 discussion to Commission Members. Any

9 questions for Mr. Williams?

10 (No response.)


12 much.

13 So, we'll return to discussion

14 here and, Ms. Tregoning, do you have --

15 MEMBER TREGONING: So, some Park

16 Service questions. So, I understand that there

17 is no funding in any of the out year budgets

18 at this time for this project. Is that

19 correct?

20 MEMBER MAY: Well, the Congress

21 appropriates money one year at a time, so

22 there's -- it's true, there's not money in the


Page 67

1 FY `14 budget for this. However, it is in the

2 Park Service's internal capital budgeting for

3 FY `14 and `15, so we plan to put that money

4 into the budget in `14 and `15.

5 MEMBER TREGONING: Did you put it

6 in in `13 -- did you put it in before?

7 MEMBER MAY: I think it was in for

8 `13 and it got postponed one year. I think

9 that's correct. Maybe Bob Vogel.

10 MR. VOGEL: Hi, we did delay the

11 project for one year, but we feel as confident

12 as I can stand here with a budget that has not

13 been determined that the Park Service is

14 requesting funding for this in `14 and `15 for

15 completion of the project.

16 MEMBER MAY: Frankly, I think we're

17 very confident that it will be funded. I mean,

18 we had such good results in the first phase

19 that we feel very strongly that it will be

20 funded in `14 and `15.

21 MEMBER TREGONING: So, the other

22 couple of questions have to do with the issue


Page 68

1 of the sizing of the cisterns, that you'd

2 still -- you know, you're not meeting all of

3 your irrigation needs with the cistern size

4 that you have. Right? Is that -- several of

5 the speakers have talked about 30 percent of

6 the irrigation needs being met by the cistern,

7 so I wonder why not 100 or 120 percent, or

8 something?

9 MR. VOGEL: That's a good question.

10 It's not 100 percent, but it is -- our overall

11 project when it's completed will meet about 67

12 percent of our irrigation needs.

13 MEMBER TREGONING: Why not 100

14 percent, or more than 100 percent?

15 MEMBER MAY: That was studied

16 extensively. I mean -- and there are sort of

17 diminishing returns as you get to the higher

18 percentages. I think that maybe Suzette

19 Goldstein would want to speak to this more

20 directly. She was the lead designer.

21 MR. VOGEL: She was the lead

22 planner from HOK.


Page 69

1 MEMBER TREGONING: I will just say

2 that the ability to absorb the storm water to

3 hold it, to retain it, I mean, it is

4 creditable under the proposed storm water

5 regulations that we're doing. Now, how you get

6 money, how you trade those credits might be

7 something that needs to be explored, but it

8 might change the economics of your proposal.

9 So, I would really encourage you to --

10 MEMBER MAY: We did have

11 discussions with other agencies about taking

12 on water from the Smithsonian, for example,

13 and GSA, and they did not lead to anything

14 concrete, but we're still having those

15 discussions. And it would not be hard to

16 expand the cisterns if that would be --

17 MEMBER TREGONING: I'm just saying

18 that you talk about --

19 MEMBER MAY: Before we build it, or

20 even in the future.

21 MEMBER TREGONING: You talked about

22 a diminishing return in terms of the cost, but


Page 70

1 I'm saying that the revenue that you could get

2 from selling the credits --

3 MEMBER MAY: Right. No, we

4 understand that. When we were looking for

5 people to contribute to building the cisterns

6 in the first place, because we know they have

7 to meet certain storm water retention

8 requirements, as well.

9 MEMBER TREGONING: Regardless of

10 those, regardless of anyone else cooperating

11 with you, you can independently sell them to

12 people who will need them. So, I hear what

13 you're saying, but I'm just saying that that's

14 a new development. The final rule isn't even

15 published yet, so it could make a difference.

16 MR. VOGEL: I think we're more than

17 happy to look at it, and we appreciate the

18 comments on flood mitigation. I think we have

19 consulted with other federal agencies on that,

20 and we continue to do that. And we think that

21 there's nothing in this proposal before you

22 that would preclude us from continuing those


Page 71

1 discussions and doing further actions as far

2 as flood mitigation, too. But we certainly

3 will look at what you're talking about here

4 and see what we can do.

5 MEMBER TREGONING: I would just say

6 like you are at a moment where you have some

7 really exceptional leadership, you know, in

8 the person of both of you, Peter May and Bob

9 Vogel at the Park Service who really are

10 looking at much more integrative comprehensive

11 solutions. This mall is an enormous resource

12 in many dimensions that we hadn't even

13 previously considered, and if there's just a

14 way to accommodate -- I mean, the bus parking

15 alone is a pressing concern of the Park

16 Service, so the idea that we might be able to

17 figure out ways to privately finance that, you

18 know, are incredibly appealing. And that, you

19 know, I would just encourage you to kind of

20 keep an open mind, and maybe we'll be lucky

21 and you won't get funded next year, and you'll

22 have another year to figure out how to --


Page 72

1 because the idea that you would invest in

2 this beautiful job that you did on the lawn

3 panels and then look to tear it up again in a

4 couple of years is kind of, you know,

5 sickening for me to even think about. So,

6 maybe there's time for these two ideas to kind

7 of come together, and maybe we can work to try

8 to get more urgency, maybe a sense of the

9 Congress that could help make maybe a very

10 uniquely smart thing happen.

11 MR. VOGEL: And I appreciate your

12 comments, and I, myself, am hoping we do get

13 the funding. I do think that Dr. Feldman's

14 proposal is very interesting and we're

15 continuing a dialogue about that. And,

16 obviously, it requires a lot more depth. And

17 I would say that, you know, that process even

18 if it moved forward in a positive fashion

19 would be -- take a number of years to get

20 through all the processes of investigation and

21 compliance, so I don't see that a couple of

22 years would be enough time to implement. I


Page 73

1 appreciate your kind comments.

2 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Mr. Provancha,

3 and then Mr. Hart.

4 MEMBER PROVANCHA: The comments

5 that we made about this project when it was

6 presented to us in December of `10, and the

7 very impressive presentation were that we

8 thought the plan was very comprehensive and

9 very ambitious, and those comments stand. We

10 had made a comment about the signage

11 particularly with the plea to make it

12 integrated throughout the mall so that it was

13 friendly to visitors.

14 The focus today of our comments

15 would be along the lines of sidewalk cisterns

16 and use of adjacent streets. And I think

17 they're covered in the EDR to a various

18 extent.

19 It appears that the widening of

20 the sidewalks would add -- would increase the

21 total sidewalk acreage to -- by 1.37 acres

22 increasing from about 41 to 46 percent. We


Page 74

1 wonder if that's -- particularly, if they're

2 not pervious sidewalks, if we might be

3 contributing particularly in the Phase I in

4 the 100-foot -- 100-year flood plain. We've

5 already experienced, it was mentioned Archives

6 and others that are in that area.

7 We think, though, the general

8 layout of the widened sidewalks is respectful

9 of the Olmstead Junior 1936 Plan, so that's a

10 compliment, but we're also concerned about how

11 the widening might affect the -- or add to

12 already, particularly in the eastern Phase I,

13 the storm water control.

14 It appears that what we're having

15 in Washington now is kind of a cyclic

16 experience of drought followed by intense

17 rainfall, followed by periods of drought. I

18 think technically we're still even in a

19 drought in D.C. because of substandard

20 rainfall.

21 While a million gallons of water

22 for irrigation sounds impressive, again, if


Page 75

1 even the total is only about two-thirds of the

2 total irrigation requirement and does not

3 provide any flood control capacity, it seems

4 like perhaps -- I think it was characterized

5 maybe as an opportunity lost.

6 To help with this modeling and

7 sizing for the storm water control, we had a

8 wonderful presentation at our January meeting

9 by Amy Trace of the NCPC staff along with Kim

10 Toufectis from NASA, and Dr. Rosenzweig, the

11 climate adaptation modeling specialist from

12 Columbia University. There seems to be some

13 federal resources that are available to help

14 us with proper modeling and sizing of these

15 water systems.

16 On the widening of the sidewalks

17 and the potential use of the adjacent spaces,

18 I think even the EDR mentioned consideration

19 for use of Jefferson and Madison. There's the

20 old principle about if we build it, they will

21 come. The reverse principle for special events

22 planners, we have some experience of that at


Page 76

1 the Pentagon with Rolling Thunder and Army 10-

2 Miler, and Marine Corps Marathon, and various

3 commemorations depending on Memorial activity

4 and so forth, is that if we make it available,

5 they will fill it up. The corollary there is

6 the more space that's available -- I know it's

7 a judgment call of the special events planners

8 as to what the proper mix and balance of

9 pedestrian access and flow is with tent

10 structures.

11 So, the nature of our concerns or

12 issues would be -- probably reassurance, I

13 guess, is what we're looking for that the

14 calculated expanded width of the sidewalks is

15 based perhaps on historical use of the mall,

16 known deficiencies for some of these events,

17 and widening the sidewalks is a better

18 solution and will not contribute substantively

19 to the flood control issue, that the sizing of

20 the cisterns will continue to be studied. And

21 I think I'm hearing that reassurance. And then

22 if you could address the use or the


Page 77

1 consideration and the decision not to use

2 adjacent roads like Jefferson and Madison for

3 large-scale events. That's the three concerns

4 that we have.

5 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Mr. Hart. I'm

6 sorry, Mr. Vogel.

7 MR. VOGEL: I would ask Suzette

8 Goldstein, I think we have very carefully done

9 analysis and she can speak to that.

10 MS. GOLDSTEIN: Thank you.

11 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Sure.

12 MS. GOLDSTEIN: And please correct

13 me if I miss one of the four points that you

14 wanted me to cover. But the one question you

15 asked was whether we very carefully looked

16 into the use -- historical data on the use,

17 and we did extensive research into how the

18 National Mall has been used previously for

19 special events, what sizes of tents, what

20 kinds of tents, how many bathrooms they bring

21 along, how many stages, how many megatrons,

22 the whole kit and kaboodle.


Page 78

1 (Off microphone comment.)

2 MEMBER PROVANCHA: We'd have a get

3 together of the participants following the

4 event to say what did we do well that we want

5 to repeat, and where were some shortcomings,

6 areas where we could improve. And capacity

7 planning is perhaps one of those important

8 areas. Is that the kind of --

9 MS. GOLDSTEIN: We did a little bit

10 of that --

11 MEMBER PROVANCHA: -- approach?

12 MS. GOLDSTEIN: Slightly different.

13 We did a couple of things, we looked at

14 historic data. We were luckily able to get

15 historical data from the permitting department

16 from the National Park Service.

17 The Park Service requires a site

18 plan for every event that comes through, and

19 as well as the permittee offers population

20 estimates or participation estimates. So, we

21 had that kind of data so that we could

22 evaluate the intensity. We knew the duration


Page 79

1 and the length of both setup and event.

2 MEMBER PROVANCHA: Right.

3 MS. GOLDSTEIN: We knew the

4 locations, we knew the amount of equipment and

5 the things that they brought. So, we took all

6 of those things and evaluated in any number of

7 ways.

8 In addition to that, we kind of

9 empaneled our own sort of internal experts and

10 was part of the development of the O&M Manual.

11 We hired someone who's -- a gentleman who's a

12 professor at GW University, and an events

13 planner himself. We also hired a turf

14 management specialist who also is a event

15 operator/handler. He actually sets events up.

16 So, we had that looked at for both the people

17 side and the grass side, so we could

18 understand the events from both sides there.

19 And, also, as a part of that process we did a

20 focus group with events vendors, so we had

21 people there representing the tent industries,

22 the lighting, the AV, so on and so forth, all


Page 80

1 the different participants, all the different

2 components that go into setting up an event.

3 So, from that knowledge base as

4 well as the historical data that we could get

5 from the permitting department, we quelled

6 that down, did evaluations on how many events

7 are currently held. I will tell you they

8 pretty much all use the grass right now which

9 is why it looks as bad as it does.


11 MS. GOLDSTEIN: And it's completely

12 unacceptable to continue in that mode. We

13 looked at what kind of events would then no

14 longer be permitted, would no longer be

15 accommodated. I shouldn't say permitted, I

16 should say accommodated on there once we

17 changed the past system and no longer allowed

18 people to just freely use the lawn, but to

19 highly discourage their use of the lawn. And

20 the proposal that you see before you is the

21 compromise of those things.

22 MEMBER PROVANCHA: I see.


Page 81

1 MS. GOLDSTEIN: That proposal will

2 require something like 47 percent, and that's

3 pretty much all of the bigger events to modify

4 the way they do business. So, they will no

5 longer come down there with 10 humongous

6 tents, or five humongous tents. There will be

7 specific locations they'll be directed to set

8 those up in order to keep them off of the turf

9 panels.

10 MEMBER PROVANCHA: I see.

11 MS. GOLDSTEIN: The National Park

12 Service is working very closely with some of

13 the big operators right now. They work

14 intimately with the Inaugural Committee to

15 make sure that that area is protected and is

16 a test case that worked very successfully. So,

17 Smithsonian is probably the largest event, is

18 the largest event on the mall, and they are

19 working very intimately with them right now to

20 make sure that they kind of rethink about the

21 way they do things so that they can preserve

22 the integrity of the landscape.


Page 82

1 MEMBER PROVANCHA: Okay, thank you.

2 That's very helpful to explain the process

3 that you went through. Thank you.

4 MS. GOLDSTEIN: And I've now talked

5 so long I forgot your other two points.

6 MEMBER PROVANCHA: The other two

7 are about cistern sizing and use of adjacent

8 roads.

9 MS. GOLDSTEIN: The adjacent roads

10 we actually are suggesting that the larger

11 events will use the adjacent roads.

12 MEMBER PROVANCHA: Okay.

13 MS. GOLDSTEIN: Like the

14 Smithsonian, in particular.


16 MS. GOLDSTEIN: We would like them

17 to kind of -- or we like in large events such

18 as that to be more like street fairs now, and

19 less like big carnivals down the middle of the

20 mall. So, those big events would be able to

21 use the adjacent roads. And the National Park

22 Service is in control of those two roads, so


Page 83

1 they have the control to approve or not

2 approve a particular event to do that. So,

3 that is something that's on the table.

4 MEMBER PROVANCHA: Okay. And

5 cistern sizing, specific concern was, for

6 example, if Phase I is within the flood plain,

7 and that's half a million, and Phase II and

8 III are outside the flood plain and it's the

9 same size, collective size of the cistern, I'm

10 having a hard time reconciling that.

11 MS. GOLDSTEIN: Well, all of our

12 walkways are being pitched and drained, or

13 pitched back towards the drainage systems that

14 we're providing that's integrated into the

15 granite curb edging. So, it's our intention to

16 pick up all of the water that's hitting those

17 walkways. And they're all graded to do that.

18 So, we shouldn't be contributing water

19 elsewhere because we're picking it all up. So,

20 when we widened those couple of walkways

21 they're still being pitched back to our

22 drains, and all of that water is still going


Page 84

1 back to our cistern. If we pick up more water,

2 that's actually a benefit for our irrigation

3 calculations.

4 MEMBER MAY: I think I want to

5 clarify. The flood plain doesn't really have

6 a lot to do with this, and in the long run

7 none of these areas are going to be in the

8 flood plain once the levy is completed. I

9 think that is -- if there's any overlap

10 between the flood plain and the turf panels,

11 and I'm not sure how much there is. I don't

12 think there's really much at all, if any, it

13 doesn't really bear on it.

14 I mean, what we're really talking

15 about is the water that falls on the turf

16 panels and on the walkways will be collected

17 and put in -- and saved in the cistern.

18 MEMBER PROVANCHA: I'm glad you

19 mentioned rainfall. We did a rough back of the

20 envelope calculation, with about a 50-acre on

21 the mall it would only take about 7/10ths of

22 an inch to fill up the million gallon


Page 85

1 collective cisterns.

2 MS. GOLDSTEIN: I can't say I've

3 ever done a calculation that way, so it would

4 be -- I'd be hard-pressed to answer it.

5 MEMBER PROVANCHA: We were

6 interested in capacity. And, again, if it's

7 just for irrigation and this suffices two-

8 thirds of the requirement, it's clearly a step

9 in the right direction. What's the general

10 time frame for the levy? I'm just trying to

11 get a handle on how long we might have to live

12 with the existing conditions.

13 MEMBER MAY: You might check with

14 your colleagues at the Corps of Engineers

15 about when they expect to finish it.

16 (Laughter.)

17 MEMBER MAY: But the latest thing

18 they told us was this summer.

19 MEMBER PROVANCHA: Okay, good.

20 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Mr. Hart.

21 MEMBER HART: One question, and I'm

22 not sure if it's Mr. Vogel or maybe Peter. We


Page 86

1 heard an interesting proposal from Dr. Feldman

2 today. Is there anything in Phases II and III

3 that would preclude some kind of solution as

4 was proposed here down the line? It looks like

5 the cisterns are under the walkways, not under

6 the panels. And I think that what I saw in

7 those exhibits of Dr. Feldman's is most of the

8 structure was under the grass panels. I hate

9 to see us putting investment in the way of

10 something that we may want to change in the

11 future.

12 MEMBER MAY: The concept that we

13 saw today really is just a concept, so it's

14 hard to know exactly what the footprint would

15 be and what it might effect. But there's --

16 the investment that's being made in some of

17 these pieces of infrastructure are not so

18 large that if the powers that be decide that

19 we need to spend several hundred million

20 dollars building this facility, or that it

21 makes sense economically to justify it, I

22 mean, there's no real reason why we couldn't


Page 87

1 go in and do that. And we'd salvage as much of

2 what we put in now that we possibly could, you

3 know, once we replace the turf panels if it

4 were to go on top of a structure like this.

5 MEMBER HART: Okay.

6 MEMBER MAY: So, I mean, it's

7 really -- it may not be the most economical

8 way to do it, but we have an immediate need to

9 address the turf, and that's what we want to

10 move ahead with right now. If there's

11 something better for the entire area that

12 comes in the future, that's just going to have

13 to be weighted, and it's one of the costs as

14 redoing some of the work.

15 MEMBER HART: I was just -- from

16 what I could see, it looked like there's

17 nothing that was going to be a big obstacle in

18 the future should an idea like that proceed.

19 MEMBER MAY: I don't see big

20 obstacles.

21 MEMBER HART: And the last

22 discussion about the storm water management,


Page 88

1 you're really only intercepting the water

2 that's in the middle of the mall, on the grass

3 panels and in the walkways that's going to

4 those cisterns, not from Madison or Jefferson?

5 MEMBER MAY: That's right.

6 MEMBER HART: Okay.

7 MEMBER MAY: I mean, we're open to

8 the possibility of expanding the cisterns and

9 collecting more water, and covering 100

10 percent of our needs, but the conversations

11 that we've had so far about getting help in

12 building those structures has not yielded

13 anything yet. But they're not over either. I

14 mean, it could still happen.

15 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Last comments?

16 Ms. Tregoning.

17 MEMBER TREGONING: I actually had a

18 proposal to make. This has been an unusually

19 rich discussion, and I feel like if we approve

20 the EDR exactly as written that it won't

21 reflect kind of our hopes and aspirations that

22 some of these ideas could be incorporated, so


Page 89

1 I have some proposed amended text. It doesn't

2 affect the overall approval so I hope it won't

3 meet with objection from the Park Service, but

4 after the current recommendations and the

5 notes I would say that, "Urges the National

6 Park Service to size the cisterns to

7 accommodate 100 percent of their need for

8 irrigation water, and notes that this approval

9 should not preclude consideration of more

10 ambitious plans to accommodate more storm

11 water, flood control elements, and potential

12 bus parking." Although, obviously, that would

13 require return to the Commission for those

14 plans. But like I say, I don't think it

15 affects the approval, but it does, I think,

16 reflect a sense of the Commission discussion

17 that this is what we all in a perfect world

18 aspire to and would hope that we can

19 collectively try to make some of these things

20 happen.

21 MEMBER MAY: Can I speak to that?

22 MEMBER TREGONING: Of course.


Page 90

1 MEMBER MAY: You know, I think

2 noting that this doesn't preclude that

3 something else could happen in the future, I

4 don't have great anxiety about that. It is

5 just a note, and all we're doing is saying

6 that this doesn't capture some of the

7 conversation today.

8 The urging the Park Service to

9 size, to resize the cisterns to capture 100

10 percent of the storm water I do believe is

11 problematic. You know, we have a fully

12 designed project. We are open to the idea that

13 it could be expanded in the future if there is

14 demand for that storage, but even as it is,

15 they're bigger than we believe will reasonably

16 fall there. I mean, we -- a certain amount of

17 water will fall, and a certain amount will be

18 lost to evaporation. We're capturing

19 everything that falls. We expect to capture

20 everything that falls except in an extreme

21 storm event, so making it larger is only going

22 to be of marginal benefit to us.


Page 91

1 MEMBER TREGONING: Not if you

2 capture it from other --

3 MEMBER MAY: Right, and so to say

4 þ- to suggest that we would be open to

5 expansion to capture additional water, if you

6 want to note that, I don't have a problem with

7 it, but you're urging us to size it to capture

8 100 percent of our need when we're not -- you

9 know, that's basically telling us that we must

10 go out and try to find -- get the Smithsonian

11 to give us their water, or DDOT to give us

12 their water.

13 We've made some of those attempts,

14 and we can't invest in the additional

15 infrastructure at this point. We're open to it

16 if somebody comes with dollars to the table

17 and through whatever means, whether it's by

18 the credit system you mention or something

19 else, we're open to it. That's why I say we

20 would be open to an expansion, but to urge us

21 to size it larger I think is problematic.

22 MEMBER TREGONING: So, how about if


Page 92

1 I add "urge you to consider?"

2 MEMBER MAY: Why don't you just

3 include it in the notes part at the bottom? I

4 mean, you had another thing about notes that

5 were open to the future. Why don't you just

6 say notes that we're open to expansion of the

7 cistern --

8 MEMBER TREGONING: Notes that it's

9 desirable for the Park Service to consider

10 sizing the cisterns to accommodate 100 percent

11 of their irrigation needs. I'm happy with

12 that.

13 MEMBER MAY: Say it again.

14 MEMBER TREGONING: Notes that it is

15 desirable for the NPS to meet 100 percent of

16 their irrigation needs through larger

17 cisterns.

18 MEMBER MAY: I would like to ask my

19 colleagues at the Mall who are more intimately

20 involved with the design here to talk about

21 the -- whether it's really practical for us to

22 simply size it that way. I mean, you all want


Page 93

1 to explain it?

2 MEMBER WHITE: Maybe a suggestion

3 to say it in a more positive way, that we're

4 encouraged that they're open to pursuing this,

5 because you stated it publicly.


7 MEMBER WHITE: Would that help

8 resolve it?

9 MEMBER MAY: I mean, I would be

10 happier with that language than even the last

11 version.

12 MEMBER TREGONING: I would just

13 say, I'd like to not put the onus not just on

14 you, but I could help on the DC street side,

15 others might be able to help with other

16 buildings. So, I think I have a helper who

17 wants to talk right now. Yes?

18 (Laughter.)

19 MEMBER WRIGHT: I would. But first,

20 Pedro, I've known you for a long time and

21 you're like that guy in the Life cereal

22 commercial, you know, let's give it to Mikey.


Page 94

1 He eats everything.

2 This is aspirational language.

3 There's nothing wrong with that.

4 MEMBER MAY: This is not -- urging

5 is not aspirational language. I don't have any

6 problem with aspirational language.

7 MEMBER WRIGHT: But what's wrong

8 with desirable? Touch that one.

9 (Laughter.)

10 MEMBER WRIGHT: I just don't get

11 why we have to always operate with this

12 abundance of caution which I've said before,

13 and not express aspirational goals in the

14 language that comes out of here. Why is that

15 so -- it just makes you break out? What's up

16 with that? I don't get it.

17 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Well, instead of

18 getting off on that discussion, let's --

19 MEMBER WRIGHT: No, but it's an

20 important discussion, Preston, because --

21 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Let's try to put

22 forth some specific language. Do you have


Page 95

1 specific proposals?

2 MEMBER WRIGHT: Desirable I think

3 is completely --

4 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Okay. Repeat it

5 again, please.

6 MEMBER TREGONING: Notes that it's

7 desirable for the National Park Service to

8 consider meeting 100 percent of its irrigation

9 needs through upsizing or resizing their

10 cisterns.

11 MEMBER WRIGHT: It's a softball.

12 MEMBER MAY: Okay. Fine.

13 MEMBER TREGONING: That's a motion,

14 that was a long motion.

15 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: So, it's been

16 moved and seconded that the language roughly

17 is -- notes that it is desirable for the NPS

18 to consider meeting 100 percent of its

19 irrigation need through expanded cisterns.

20 MEMBER TREGONING: Something, yes.

21 And there was another note, right? The second

22 note was notes that this approval should not


Page 96

1 preclude consideration of more ambitious plans

2 to accommodate more storm water and flood

3 control elements, and potential bus parking.

4 MEMBER WRIGHT: Can you say that

5 again?

6 MEMBER TREGONING: Notes that this

7 approval should not preclude consideration of

8 more ambitious plans to accommodate additional

9 storm water and flood control elements, and

10 potential bus parking. We can certainly say as

11 presented in testimony during the Commission's

12 consideration of this project.

13 MEMBER WRIGHT: Okay, so

14 aspirational but probably not practical. That

15 seems a reach to include the bus parking here

16 because there's no way they can do that

17 without digging right now.

18 MEMBER TREGONING: Right, but I

19 think that's all -- we're all -- I mean,

20 everyone testified that they're open to these

21 other ideas, and right now because of the

22 likely timing of this project they can't be


Page 97

1 considered as part of this project, but that's

2 a big uncertainty. We have no idea in this

3 fiscally constrained federal government

4 environment when and whether this project will

5 get funded in `15. This might be utterly

6 meaningless if it turns out that there's time

7 for these projects to converge, this language

8 suggests that they try to make that happen.

9 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Okay. I think we

10 understand the --

11 MEMBER TREGONING: Intention.

12 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: -- two

13 amendments or one amendment, two amendments.

14 Are they --

15 MEMBER TREGONING: One amendment.

16 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: One amendment.

17 Mr. May, any further discussion?

18 MEMBER MAY: No. I mean, I wouldn't

19 interpret the last comment -- I mean it may be

20 your hope that these two projects do converge,

21 but I will repeat once again. We are very,

22 very optimistic that we're going to be funded


Page 98

1 in the short term. And I would also say that

2 this other project has a very difficult path

3 ahead.

4 MEMBER TREGONING: Understood. I

5 love your optimism.

6 MEMBER MAY: And my pessimism.

7 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Counsel, you have

8 no concerns about -- okay.


10 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Right. It's been

11 moved and seconded that the amendment, I guess

12 this is one amendment.

13 MEMBER MILLER: Are we voting on

14 the --

15 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Just the

16 amendment.

17 MEMBER MILLER: Okay.

18 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Just the

19 amendment.

20 MEMBER MILLER: Okay.

21 MEMBER PROVANCHA: Question about

22 the procedure. If we can live with the first


Page 99

1 half but not the last half, do we need to

2 split this baby at this point --

3 MEMBER TREGONING: Let's vote on

4 the whole thing first, and then we can decide.

5 Right? I can offer an amended --

6 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: You could. I

7 think it's been moved and seconded, the

8 amendments. All in favor of the amendments as

9 read say aye.

10 (Chorus of ayes.)

11 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Opposed, no.

12 MEMBER PROVANCHA: No.

13 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: One no. So, now

14 before us is the EDR, as amended. Is there

15 further discussion on the EDR, as amended? Mr.

16 Miller, you had --

17 MEMBER MILLER: I'm sorry, I had

18 one question which I didn't get to ask about

19 the amended - the Park Service representative

20 would be the one to ask about the -- with the

21 146 wide walkway that's proposed, is there --

22 there's a 146 wide -- along 12th Street, from


Page 100

1 the 12th Street Metro, North-South.

2 MEMBER MAY: The Metro Plaza is 146

3 feet, yes.

4 MEMBER MILLER: What is driving the

5 -- my question is what is driving it to be 146

6 feet wide, that a 105-foot width would not

7 accommodate there, since it's now, I --

8 MS. GOLDSTEIN: The wider walkway,

9 and the number 146, an odd number, came from

10 alignment with adjacent sidewalks. So, from a

11 design standpoint that's where that came from.

12 The need for that width comes from the ability

13 to set up some of the larger tents. So, we've

14 gone from the ability to set up big tents

15 anywhere they want to on the mall, to that one

16 location where they'll be able to put the very

17 largest tents.

18 MEMBER MAY: Can I also point out,

19 we did look at filling those with lawn panels

20 in some of the earlier versions of this, and

21 in discussions with the Commission of Fine

22 Arts they felt very strongly that if we have


Page 101

1 a need to accommodate these larger tents, that

2 those side panels that are out of the view

3 shed between the Capitol and the Monument,

4 that would be the best place to have those

5 larger areas. And that was something that they

6 came to and agreed on very early in the

7 process, that that's the best way to try to

8 handle the things, the really big stuff.

9 MEMBER MILLER: Okay, thank you.

10 MEMBER WRIGHT: It's not a service

11 tent, that for service tents, or is it for

12 like catering tents and stuff like that?

13 MS. GOLDSTEIN: Part of the events.

14 MEMBER WRIGHT: Yes.

15 MEMBER MAY: It could be any part

16 of the event.

17 MEMBER WRIGHT: Okay.

18 MEMBER MILLER: Thank you.

19 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Is there a motion

20 on the EDR, as amended?

21 MEMBER MILLER: So moved.

22 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: So moved and


Page 102

1 seconded. All in favor of the EDR, as amended

2 say aye.

3 (Chorus of ayes.)


5 We're done.

6 The last item on the agenda, I

7 believe the last item on the agenda is Agenda

8 Item 5C, is the Arlington National Cemetery

9 Millennium Project, and we have Mr. Hart. And

10 we do have public comment on that. Four people

11 have signed up to speak. Mr. Hart, welcome.

12 5C ARLINGTON NATIONAL CEMETERY,

13 ARLINGTON COUNTY, VIRGINIA

14 MILLENNIUM PROJECT

15 MR. HART: Good afternoon, Mr.

16 Chairman and Members of the Commission. The

17 project before you today is the Millennium

18 Project. It is located in Arlington, at the

19 Arlington National Cemetery in Arlington

20 County. It is submitted by the Department of

21 the Army for concept review.

22 As you're aware, this is the


Page 103

1 Arlington National Cemetery. It is also where

2 this Millennium site is located. You'll note

3 the Millennium site is located in the

4 northwestern portion of the Arlington Cemetery

5 here. It is one of two expansion projects that

6 the Army is proposing -- excuse me, two

7 expansion projects that the Army is planning.

8 The other site is at the southern end of the

9 cemetery that's called the Navy Annex Site.

10 In the mid to late `90s, Congress

11 became concerned that the Arlington National

12 Cemetery would cease being an active cemetery

13 and it passed laws to extend the life of the

14 cemetery through the expansion on nearby lands

15 which are these two sites. The site before

16 you, again, is just the Millennium site.

17 The Army states that without this

18 project, the cemetery is expected to reach

19 capacity in 2023. The Army also states in its

20 -- the EA that is out for public comment that

21 this project is expected to extend the life by

22 7-12 years.


Page 104

1 This parcel is made up of land

2 transferred from both the National Park

3 Service, as well as Joint Base Myer Henderson

4 Hall. The yellow part of the parcel that's

5 shown here was transferred from Fort Myer in

6 2004, and just for your orientation, north is

7 to the top of the image, and the outline in

8 white is the actual Millennium project.

9 The green striped area shown here

10 is a parcel that was transferred from the

11 National Park Service in 2002, and it is part

12 of the historic setting of the Arlington

13 House. The Arlington House is shown here. And

14 then, finally, there's a purple section, and

15 this is the existing maintenance yard for the

16 cemetery, actually for ANC contractors.

17 Arlington House is listed on the

18 National Historic -- the National Register of

19 Historic Places.

20 The law that transferred the NPS

21 site, and this entire site, you see the area

22 that's called Section 29. It is the green


Page 105

1 striped area as well as the dotted part of the

2 green area here, so all of that is Section 29.

3 That stated that the land needed to be used

4 for in-ground burials, or columbaria which

5 were to be designed with the site contours. It

6 has been planned or under development since

7 early 2000.

8 I'd like to note that the

9 Arlington House historic setting includes the

10 woods found in both the green and green

11 striped area, which I noted earlier, and the

12 woods closest to Arlington House are the

13 oldest which date back 235 years. There are

14 other wooded areas, and those ages I'll

15 describe in a little bit more detail in

16 upcoming slides.

17 So, here's the site itself. The

18 land from Fort Myer Henderson Hall, excuse me,

19 from Joint Base Myer Henderson Hall is

20 generally an open area with some trees, as

21 well as grassy areas, while the land from the

22 National Park Service is generally wooded.


Page 106

1 There are moderate to severe slopes on either

2 side of the perennial stream which run through

3 the site. The existing stream bank has been

4 eroded from previous storm events and

5 restoration will be included as part of this

6 project. And you see the stream shown here in

7 blue.

8 I'd like to talk about the

9 existing conditions. Here are a few images of

10 the site. The top image shows -- includes Fort

11 Myer, or Joint Base Myer Henderson Hall on the

12 right-hand side of the image, and the

13 Millennium site is on the center, and on the

14 left, so all of that is the Millennium site.

15 You'll note a historic boundary

16 wall. This is kind of a dark line that goes

17 through the site. That's actually the -- that

18 used to be the dividing line between Joint

19 Base Myer Henderson Hall and the cemetery. And

20 a 1,300-foot portion of this wall will need to

21 be removed as part of this project. The Army

22 states it will reuse pieces of the wall in the


Page 107

1 construction of the perimeter wall when it's

2 built. And I'll describe that in a little bit

3 more detail in an upcoming slide.

4 Another condition -- some other

5 condition images, these are -- the top one is

6 from the Arlington National Cemetery

7 maintenance area. It's looking -- you'll note

8 on the map on the bottom right, it's looking

9 towards the west. And the other images are of

10 the Arlington Woods, and the bottom left, the

11 stream -- this is actually the stream -- the

12 part that's been eroded. This gentleman is

13 standing actually in the middle of the stream

14 so it's fairly -- quite a bit of erosion

15 that's taken place.

16 So, next we'll get to the proposed

17 site plan. The Army developed six alternatives

18 as part of this project over the last few

19 years, and has chosen this alternative,

20 Alternative E1 as its preferred alternative.

21 I will describe each of the

22 elements of the design in upcoming slides. The


Page 108

1 plan includes 29,922 burial sites for both

2 internment and inurnment burials. So, for in-

3 ground burials, they're shown here in the

4 yellow orange color. There are three different

5 types, and they are traditional burial, a pre-

6 placed crypt, and an area for cremated

7 remains. The traditional area is here. These

8 are burials very similar to what is occurring

9 now in the rest of Arlington National

10 Cemetery. These pre-placed crypts are concrete

11 structures that are placed side by side, and

12 they're actually in the ground, and they're

13 covered with between 18 and 24 inches of soil.

14 These allows caskets to be placed closer

15 together and, therefore, increasing the number

16 of burial spaces available.

17 The final area, and they're

18 cremated remains. One area is over here for

19 in-ground burials, another area is over here,

20 so on either ends of the Millennium site. This

21 allows -- the Army allows families the choice

22 of either having in-ground burials for


Page 109

1 cremated remains, or using the niches. And

2 I'll talk about the niches in the upcoming

3 slide.

4 The columbaria, you see an image

5 of an existing columbaria, one of the courts

6 that actually currently exists on Arlington

7 National Cemetery, they are -- they provide

8 niches or small spaces for cremated remains

9 and they're shown in this image in red. There

10 are three court areas, A, Columbaria A,

11 Columbaria B, and Columbaria C. Again, going

12 from east -- yes, from left to right -- right

13 to left, A, B, and the C is these two areas.

14 And then there's a perimeter niche wall, and

15 that's shown here along the border with Joint

16 Base Myer Henderson Hall.

17 And, finally, there are other

18 improvements to the site, as well. They

19 include a loop road that connects to Ord and

20 Weitzel Drive. That's an existing road that's

21 shown in the left -- right-hand portion of

22 this slide. And two committal shelters, they


Page 110

1 are shown in yellow, several bridges, they are

2 purple color, and also stream restoration

3 projects, as well.

4 There are also pathways which will

5 lead to the columbaria. The pathways will also

6 lead to the in-ground burial areas, as well as

7 the perimeter wall. The loop road is being

8 proposed because caissons, and you see the

9 image up in the upper right-hand corner of

10 this slide. There are horse-drawn carriages.

11 They're used for some of the funerals, and

12 they are really only able to be moved forward

13 so they need to have some way of coming back

14 to the Ord and Weitzel Drive as they proceed

15 to the burial sites.

16 Here is a section of the site

17 showing the different elements of the project.

18 This section shown here in the upper right-

19 hand side, the section includes what's

20 happening at Joint Base Myer Henderson Hall on

21 the lefthand side. The perimeter niche wall,

22 the pre-placed concrete crypts here, the loop


Page 111

1 road, Columbaria C, the stream restoration

2 area, the other portion of Columbarium C, and

3 then the other portion of the loop road. And

4 then continuing on to the existing woodland

5 area. And I'll give you a little bit more of

6 a detail. I know it's a little hard to read.

7 This is a section through the

8 perimeter wall, the boundary wall with Joint

9 Base Myer Henderson Hall. The wall itself is

10 13 feet on the Arlington National Cemetery

11 side, and this side is the Arlington National

12 Cemetery side which is the right-hand side of

13 the slide. This side is the Joint Base Myer

14 Henderson Hall side. So, this wall, perimeter

15 wall will act as both the -- where the niches

16 are. It also will be a barrier between the two

17 facilities, and then act as a retaining wall.

18 As you note the height of the wall on the

19 Joint Base Myer Henderson Hall side is

20 actually just four feet.

21 The design includes a beam and

22 lintel elements in the design, and this is to


Page 112

1 help create a sense of enclosure, and I'll

2 show you what that looks like in this slide.

3 These elements are kind of perspective

4 renderings. This rendering at the top is taken

5 from the loop road looking up towards where

6 the perimeter wall is. This is looking along

7 the wall so you're standing at one point and

8 looking down the length of the wall. Again,

9 the beans and the lintels helping to give that

10 sense of enclosure. And this image is just to

11 show that the -- there is an existing niche

12 wall at Arlington National Cemetery. This is

13 actually interesting, it's the -- on the other

14 side of this is Route 110, and it is a niche

15 wall on this side, and then on the other side

16 it looks just like a regular brick wall, or a

17 regular stone wall.

18 Now, I'll move to the section

19 showing the stream restoration area. This road

20 is 300-feet wide, the loop road is 30-feet

21 wide on this side, and 22-feet wide on the

22 other side. The portion of the stream itself


Page 113

1 which is shown here, it is going to be

2 restored as part of this project. And with

3 that restoration project they are actually

4 preserving some of the trees that are on the

5 site today, and there are two, as you noted

6 earlier, there are two columbaria on either

7 side of this stream restoration area. And

8 these columbaria actually point in toward the

9 stream restoration area to provide a sense of

10 -- as passive and calm sense for the family

11 members coming to the site.

12 And, finally, there is a section

13 of the -- a further section of the site again

14 looking at the existing tree line, the 22-foot

15 road, and then the columbaria on the side

16 here. And there is a retaining wall that's

17 being proposed as part of the project because

18 of the grade in this location.

19 And these are really showing the

20 þ- images showing the Columbaria A, which is

21 a curved element that was on the kind of

22 northern side of the Millennium Park, excuse


Page 114

1 me, Millennium Project, as well as a committal

2 shelter. And committal shelters are gathering

3 points in the cemetery, and they have several

4 of them existing in the cemetery now. These

5 two are being proposed for this area, in

6 particular.

7 I'll note that this committal

8 shelter is near the columbaria that are near

9 where the stream restoration area is, and you

10 can actually see the columbaria. And you'll

11 note them, they're kind of dark but they are -

12 - this is actually the top of this columbaria,

13 so this is a grade change between where this

14 is and where these are located. They're kind

15 of following the grade of the land.

16 There's another project, another

17 portion of the project that's a little bit off

18 the site. This is the Millennium site itself,

19 and this is the location of this project which

20 is a storm water cistern project. Really

21 they're looking at finding ways to better

22 treat and kind of deal with the storm water


Page 115

1 coming off of the surface parking. To do that,

2 they are taking up some of the pavement that

3 is around some of the existing trees in the

4 parking lot, and they're adding in --

5 replacing intake structure, helping to do

6 some treatment of the rainwater. And really a

7 lot of this is because there's -- this parking

8 lot is draining down into the existing stream.

9 The stream is over here. They're doing this to

10 help to fix some problems, some erosion

11 problems that they're running into because the

12 water is currently just running off and

13 eroding some of the hillside. And this area

14 here is part of Arlington Woods, so they're

15 proposing this to help deal with that problem.

16 So, staff reviewed the proposal

17 and has identified the following issues. The

18 Comprehensive Plan, there is a tree

19 replacement policy which indicates that where

20 tree removal is necessary there should be no

21 net tree loss. So, the Army should strive to

22 meet this policy. The Army states that it is


Page 116

1 removing 882 trees, and as mitigation is

2 planting 600 native trees and 500 native

3 shrubs as part of the project.

4 Historic preservation, as always,

5 is also a part of the -- is also a concern.

6 The National Register nomination for Arlington

7 House includes a portion of what's now the

8 Millennium site. This is the part that was

9 transferred from the National Park Service to

10 the Army. The Army has been aware of this and

11 has been studying the various impacts on the

12 project. They began identifying the impacts to

13 the various tree stands that make up the site,

14 and also exploring the visual impacts, is also

15 seeking ways to minimize these impacts by

16 making changes to the design and proposing

17 mitigation.

18 So, what is all this kind of

19 talking about? The Army has gone through and

20 looked at the tree -- the age of the various

21 tree stands. Just, again, for your

22 orientation, this is the Arlington House, and


Page 117

1 the area that you see that's highlight in kind

2 of red, there's a yellow area, blue area, all

3 of that was part of this they call it Section

4 29, but it was -- it used to be -- it is all

5 of the setting for Arlington House. This

6 portion of it, the yellow portion, and then

7 the red and pink portions, all of that area,

8 was transferred to the Army for the Millennium

9 Project, so you'll note that there is an

10 impact with the loop road that is being

11 proposed through the 145-year old tree stand.

12 The 165-year old tree stand is not -- there

13 are no trees that are going to be removed in

14 that area. And then the 235-year old tree

15 stand, that's actually still National Park

16 Service property, and there are no trees being

17 removed in that area.

18 The Army also looked at the

19 impacts to trees in the -- with the various

20 alternatives that they explored. This image

21 shows all the trees removed as part of the

22 initial design, which is Alternative A. It


Page 118

1 called for the removal of nearly all the trees

2 in the 145-year old area. And it's hard to

3 read, but these are actually -- the red Xs on

4 this to show that all these trees are being

5 removed. All these trees are being removed,

6 and the trees here in this kind of blue-purple

7 area are being removed, as well. And in this

8 area there are 362 trees in this area that

9 they are moving in this alternative.

10 Alternative E, which is one of the

11 alternatives that they were exploring shows

12 that they are actually preserving some more

13 trees as part of this, some more trees in the

14 145-year old tree stand area. And in this,

15 which is the preferred alternative, they're

16 showing that they are after study and

17 basically taking out or not -- trying not to

18 remove some of the more sensitive trees, or

19 the older trees in that 145-year old tree

20 area, they have further reduced the amount of

21 impact and are now looking at just 167 trees

22 in that kind of red area that they will be


Page 119

1 removing.

2 For the visual impact study, the

3 Army is --

4 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: A quick question

5 before you go on. On the tree mitigation,

6 parts for mitigation you said they're going to

7 be replacing 600?

8 MR. HART: Yes.

9 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Where and of what

10 size and type? I don't see that.

11 MR. HART: They're actually

12 replacing it in this entire area. There are

13 some they're adding in here. There are some

14 trees they're adding in here. They're adding

15 trees there along the stream because currently

16 there's not a lot of -- the trees are kind of

17 one side and a little bit on the other side,

18 but they wanted to increase that buffer. And

19 most of these are fairly small. I can leave it

20 to the Army. The Army is here, they can answer

21 the caliber of tree that they are looking at

22 replacing. But, you know, the 145-year old


Page 120

1 tree area, that's the age of the oldest trees

2 that are there, so there is a variety of

3 trees. Some are fairly young and 6-inch

4 caliber, some are much larger.

5 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Sure. Right.

6 Thank you.

7 MR. HART: The Army is also

8 conducting a visual impact study, or in the

9 process of conducting that. And the map on the

10 upper lefthand side of this image identifies

11 which views were part of the study. This

12 analysis demonstrates which views will be

13 impacted. And, generally speaking, the views

14 that are impacted the most that they've

15 identified are really from here looking down

16 into it.

17 They looked at the images from

18 Arlington House, so what can you see from

19 Arlington House? These two photographs are

20 showing that view towards the Millennium

21 Project. Because of the amount of tree cover,

22 really you can't see much at all. And they


Page 121

1 also looked at the views from other kind of

2 high points. These are actually on the

3 cemetery itself.

4 The Army is looking at other

5 views, one from the 235-year old stand, so

6 what's the view impact from there, as well as

7 from Ord and Weitzel Street. And I want to say

8 there's another view that's about here looking

9 at the proposal, as well.

10 MEMBER WRIGHT: Carlton, sorry for

11 interrupting.

12 MR. HART: Sure.

13 MEMBER WRIGHT: But did they have

14 þ- have there been any simulations made yet?

15 MR. HART: Well, actually, this one

16 includes a simulation.

17 MEMBER WRIGHT: How?

18 MR. HART: It's -- they are putting

19 in where the wall is from --

20 MEMBER WRIGHT: Oh, okay. But what

21 I guess what I'm asking is, so these views up

22 on the right have the tree stand, those trees


Page 122

1 will be unaffected?

2 MR. HART: Yes, that's correct.

3 MEMBER WRIGHT: Okay.

4 MR. HART: Yes, because really

5 you're looking through a fairly heavily

6 forested area towards this, and you're looking

7 down at it.

8 MEMBER WRIGHT: Right.

9 MR. HART: So, it is a little bit

10 difficult to kind of --

11 MEMBER WRIGHT: Got it.

12 MR. HART: -- see that. And staff

13 would encourage the Army to continue looking

14 at the visual impact study, especially the

15 views from the woods themselves, from the 235-

16 year old wooded area towards their site.

17 The Army is developing mitigation

18 as part of the NEPA and Section 106

19 consultation processes. This includes this

20 list here, and they are looking at documenting

21 and possible reuse of the existing boundary

22 wall. And that would be on the -- as cladding


Page 123

1 on the perimeter wall that I showed a little

2 earlier. And the Army is in the process of

3 meeting with consulting parties to address the

4 concerns raised during this process.

5 And staff has received comments

6 from the -- from local citizens groups about

7 this project. The main concern has to deal

8 with the impact on the 145-year old tree, the

9 woods that are here. The Army is, as I said,

10 looking at maintaining quite a few of the

11 trees, particularly around where they're

12 restoring the stream, and the stream is

13 generally in this area going down to Ord and

14 Weitzel Drive. And that's what they're looking

15 at doing now.

16 And with all of that, the

17 Executive Director's recommendation is that

18 the Commission note that Arlington National

19 Cemetery is projected to reach full capacity

20 in 2023. In recognition of this fact, Congress

21 directed the Secretary of Interior to transfer

22 a portion of the Arlington House Woods, then


Page 124

1 under the jurisdiction of NPS to the Secretary

2 of the Army for the expansion of the cemetery.

3 Arlington House Woods are part of the historic

4 setting for the Robert E. Lee mansion, or

5 Robert E. Lee mansion memorial which is on the

6 National Register of Historic Places. Section

7 106 of the National Historic Preservation Act

8 directs federal agency's officials to take

9 into account the effect of the undertaking on

10 any resources listed or eligible to be listed

11 in the National Register. The federal element

12 -- environment element of the Comp Plan states

13 that when tree removal is necessary, trees

14 should be placed to prevent net tree loss. And

15 the creation of new burial sites in this area

16 cannot be accomplished without substantial

17 tree loss, including adverse effects to the

18 Arlington House Woods.

19 The Commission also notes that the

20 current proposal reflects the result of

21 ongoing efforts to reduce adverse effects to

22 the Arlington House Woods, and includes


Page 125

1 mitigation measures, including stream

2 restoration within the woods. And the

3 Commission, therefore, comments favorably on

4 the concept design and directs the Department

5 of the Army in subsequent submissions to

6 continue to refine their design to minimize

7 harm and provide appropriate mitigation

8 through consultation as required by the

9 National Historic Preservation Act, continue

10 to refine the visual impact survey in ways

11 that are responsive to consulting parties,

12 including the National Trust for Historic

13 Preservation and members of the community,

14 explore decrease in the width of the road bed

15 in the area of the Arlington House Woods as a

16 further way of reducing tree loss, and finally

17 prevent a net tree loss by exploring the

18 possibility of planting trees at Joint Base

19 Myer Henderson Hall or on the National Park

20 Service property. And with that, I will

21 conclude my presentation.

22 [INSERT - ARLINGTON NATIONAL CEMETERY]


Page 126

1 [INSERT - LETTER FROM THE NATIONAL TRUST FOR

2 HISTORIC PRESERVATION]

3

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Page 127

1 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Thank you. We

2 have a number of folks who have signed up to

3 speak, so if we could just go straight to the

4 public comment section. And I have -- I'll

5 just read off the four names so folks can be

6 preparing. First, let's hear from Kathryn

7 Condon of the Arlington National Cemetery. She

8 will be followed by Bernard Berne. Third would

9 be Caroline Haynes, and fourth, Robert Keller.

10 So, Ms. Condon, welcome.

11 [INSERT - LIST OF REGISTERED SPEAKERS]

12

13

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Page 128

1 MS. CONDON: Thank you. Since you

2 had the briefing, I'll keep my remarks

3 somewhat brief.

4 Ladies and gentlemen, there has

5 been no greater mission for me personally in

6 my 30-year government career than being --


8 MS. CONDON: -- Arlington National

9 Cemetery. And each and every day, just to put

10 it in perspective, we literally provide

11 services for 27 to 30 veterans and their loved

12 ones each day. But each day we get 45 requests

13 to be buried at Arlington National Cemetery,

14 and that's the reason why these expansion

15 projects are so vital to our veterans and

16 their loved ones.

17 On my -- one of the first issues I

18 faced when I started at Arlington on June

19 10th, 2010, I'm not going to talk about being

20 on the front page of the Washington Post, but

21 was the fact that we literally were going to

22 run out of burial space at Arlington National


Page 129

1 Cemetery. And the first thing we were going to

2 run out of space was for columbarium space for

3 cremated remains because, ladies and

4 gentlemen, in last fiscal year the trends

5 nationwide are changing. More and more people

6 are being cremated vice being casketed for

7 their final burials. So, in 2012, we had 62

8 percent of our burials were cremations, and 38

9 percent of those were casketed, or 28, I'm

10 sorry. So, that's why we presented to this

11 body the need for our ninth columbarium court

12 to be the first thing that we addressed at

13 Arlington.

14 I am very proud to say, if I could

15 have all of you save the date, on May 9th of

16 this year we are going to have the dedication

17 ceremony for the ninth columbarium court which

18 will add the niche space to Arlington so we

19 will no longer run out in 2016. That will

20 change our niche space to 2024. So, now that

21 means that why this Millennium project is so

22 vital is because both our in-ground burial


Page 130

1 space in 2023 and our niche space, we will run

2 out of space at Arlington by 2024. So, that's

3 why this project is so very important to us.

4 And let me say here that we have

5 been tremendously conscientious to be good

6 environmental stewards in this design. The

7 design that Carlton has presented to you today

8 has had several iterations since then where we

9 have addressed the concerns that not only this

10 body but also the Commission of Fine Arts has

11 presented. So, with that, that is my comments

12 for today. And thank you for your support in

13 all of the projects that we've had at

14 Arlington National Cemetery.

15 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Thank you, Ms.

16 Condon.

17 Mr. Bernard Berne, welcome. You

18 have three minutes, and you'll be followed by

19 Ms. Caroline Haynes.

20 MR. BERNE: Thanks. I would like to

21 ask you a question. Would you want somebody to

22 destroy a 140-year old woodland, about 800


Page 131

1 trees just so you could be buried there?

2 Something you need to think about.

3 This is going to -- if this goes

4 forward it will soil the reputation of

5 Arlington National Cemetery, as well as desire

6 of the heros who would be buried there. Some

7 of them will realize it, some of the families

8 may, but most won't because they come from

9 other parts of the country, but many will.

10 It's a big issue.

11 The question is why hasn't the

12 Army or anyone looked at the Pentagon parking

13 lots as an alternative for this? You can build

14 -- you can obviously build structured parking

15 there. Besides it was built in War World II,

16 there are probably excess spaces anyway. Never

17 have they looked at this.

18 I suggest that this EA,

19 Environmental Assessment back in 2000, I

20 suggested a most recent one in January, I got

21 no response. This is a substitute. It's the

22 way to do it, and it's the only way to do it


Page 132

1 because otherwise you're going to run out of

2 space in about 20 years anyway. This has to be

3 looked at. And it should be looked at before

4 you go forward with this project.

5 Now, how this -- back in about

6 2000 after the first law was passed, the

7 National Park Service representative came to

8 you and said they only wanted to transfer two

9 acres instead of 12. What happened? Somebody

10 got a bill through Congress that directed the

11 Secretary of the Army to transfer from the

12 Secretary of Interior to the Department of the

13 Army, and of 12 acres rather than the two. And

14 then -- and said they have to use columbarium

15 burial space. That was Public Law 107-107,

16 Defense Authorization Act of 2002.

17 There's only really one solution

18 to this, and those of you who are concerned

19 about this loss of trees and people being

20 dishonored by being buried there, and not

21 using the Pentagon parking lot can do, and

22 that is to ask the Congress, say to the


Page 133

1 members of Congress, because that's something

2 you are representative Congressman, to amend

3 the Defense Authorization Act of 2014, which

4 is coming for markup in June of this year, to

5 transfer this property, the internment zone,

6 12 acres back to the Secretary of Interior.

7 And, two, require the Secretary of Defense to

8 identify other suitable areas for the

9 expansion of Arlington National Cemetery

10 before anything goes forward. And you can do

11 it only by amending the law, there's nothing

12 else you can do about it. If it gets marked

13 up, I don't think it serves -- can proceed

14 with any of these plans until this gets

15 resolved later in the year.

16 That's the only way to do it, and

17 that's what I'm asking you to do, to first of

18 all reject this. Just say okay, if there was

19 a pass, and you go forward with it, but at

20 least let Congress give a chance. That

21 original law that's 107-107 I went through the

22 Congressional record, there was no Committee


Page 134

1 reports on it. It looks like it came off the

2 House floor. I didn't see any discussion

3 either. Nobody ever looked at the Environment

4 Assessment about this when they passed the

5 law.

6 The original law, which was back

7 in `96, had a provision that said they had to

8 -- the Secretary of Interior had to report the

9 environmental analysis to the Committee before

10 that Congress proceeded. They did not do it.

11 So they made sure when they put this law there

12 was not a requirement like this. And this is

13 why we are where we are, and this is why the

14 law has to be changed, if you agree, of

15 course. Thank you.

16 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Ms. Caroline

17 Haynes followed by Mr. Robert Keller.

18 Ms. Haynes, welcome.

19 MS. HAYNES: Thank you very much. I

20 am here today on behalf of the Arlington

21 County Urban Forestry Commission, and we

22 continue to have serious objections about the


Page 135

1 current design of this proposal.

2 We do not believe that this

3 expansion project needs to be either an

4 expansion of the cemetery, or preservation of

5 old age forest with high historical and

6 ecological value. We believe with a better

7 design it could be both.

8 I know you've all heard about the

9 Public Law when this property was transferred,

10 it specifically states, and I quote, "The

11 Secretary of the Army shall use the

12 transferred property for the development of

13 in-ground burial sites and columbarium that

14 are designed to meet the contours of Section

15 29."

16 In adopting the legislation for

17 the transfer of the section, the Arlington

18 House Woods, Congress recognized the

19 importance of designating a project that

20 preserves the contours of the natural woodland

21 as a backdrop to the Arlington House Lee

22 Mansion and to the Arlington National


Page 136

1 Cemetery.

2 The Millennium project as it is

3 currently proposed does not meet this

4 requirement. Specifically, we are concerned

5 about the construction of the loop road and

6 the steep ravine and across the stream bed

7 with a high degree of land disturbance and in

8 filling which will significantly change the

9 topography.

10 According to the EA, and I quote,

11 "The Millennium project will require

12 significant earthwork. As currently designed,

13 the project will require over two-thirds of a

14 mile of retaining walls of up to three stories

15 high, 30-feet high, and cutting and filling of

16 over 100,000 cubic yards of soil." In our

17 view, this does not meet the requirements of

18 the law that it be developed in the contours

19 of the land.

20 We note that other alternatives

21 that would be less damaging to the topography

22 and existing old age trees were not adequately


Page 137

1 considered. Specifically, the analysis of

2 Alternative F, which you all did not see today

3 and the EA is, we believe, misleading and

4 appears to have some inaccurate information.

5 We believe that it is possible to

6 design a project that is in keeping with the

7 requirements of the law and that respects the

8 historic, ecological, and cultural value of

9 this site.

10 The Urban Forestry Commission

11 strongly recommends that the project be

12 redesigned to minimize the destruction of

13 Arlington House Woods, both to provide a

14 buffer to the adjacent old growth forest and

15 to provide an esthetic backdrop to this

16 expansion project.

17 I'm curious, too, varying

18 estimates have been provided as to the annual

19 average number of initial burials. We've heard

20 everything from 5,000 a year when we had the

21 site visit on March 16th to 7,000. It's

22 included in the EA. Based on these estimates,


Page 138

1 and given the current design of about 30,000

2 initial burial sites, the project would extend

3 the operations between 4.2 and 6 years, not

4 the 7 to 12 years that we keep hearing about.

5 Redesigning the project to meet

6 the requirements of the law would have a

7 relatively small impact on the longevity of

8 the operations of the cemetery, but would have

9 a tremendous impact on saving irreplaceable

10 historic, ecological, and cultural resources.

11 If the columbaria planned for the

12 area to the west of the proposed new access

13 road were expanded in size, the decrease in

14 burial sites could be reduced or eliminated.

15 We are concerned, also, that the

16 NEPA process is not being followed

17 appropriately for this project. The

18 Cooperating Parties Group has been told that

19 the project will be at 95 percent design stage

20 within days of the April 12th, 2013 deadline

21 for public comments on the revised

22 Environmental Assessment. In our view, this


Page 139

1 reveals a blatant disregard for the NEPA

2 process and soliciting and responding to

3 issues raised by the public.

4 Likewise, we have serious we have

5 serious concerns about the finding of no

6 significant impact. I do not believe that the

7 Army is following its own guidelines under

8 Title 32 of the Code of Federal Regulations,

9 Section 651.39 where the significance, and I

10 quote, "is determined by examining both the

11 context and intensity of the proposed action."

12 Twelve acres of the 27-acre

13 Millennium project is listed on the National

14 Register of Historic Places, and is a Registry

15 site for the Virginia Native Plant Society.

16 For this project, context matters a great

17 deal.

18 The Urban Forestry Commission

19 recognizes the pressures to extend the

20 longevity of the operations of the cemetery,

21 and we respect the desires of many of our

22 national heroes and their families to have a


Page 140

1 final resting spot in our nation's premier

2 national cemetery. We believe that it is

3 possible to both develop a project that

4 extends the operations of the cemetery and

5 preserves the contours of Section 29, as

6 required by law.

7 In our view, the current proposal

8 fails to meet those dual objectives. We urge

9 that the National Capital Planning Commission

10 recommend that this project be redesigned to

11 meet this objectives. Thank you.

12 [INSERT - STATEMENT OF CAROLINE HAYES]

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Page 141

1 [INSERT - LETTER FROM ARLINGTON COUNTY URBAN

2 FORESTRY COMMISSION]

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Page 142

1 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Thank you, and

2 Mr. Keller, Mr. Robert Keller. He's not here.

3 Okay. Return the -- that ends the

4 public comment period, and we'll return the

5 discussion to the Commission.

6 Mr. Hart, I just have a question.

7 I obviously don't have the law in front of me,

8 but does the preliminary or the concept design

9 meet the contours of Section 29?

10 MR. HART: I'll show you the

11 section.


13 MR. HART: That would be the

14 easiest way to look at it. And this is the

15 section of the site. This is taken through --

16 and remember, Section 29 is the portion

17 that's shown here in the kind of striped area,

18 so this portion that's yellow is part of --

19 that was part of Joint Base Myer Henderson

20 Hall, is not included in that Section 29. So,

21 if you look at it, the section I was showing

22 you a little earlier just makes -- cuts a


Page 143

1 section through about this portion of it, so

2 about half of that site would be included in

3 that section that was drawn, and I'll get back

4 to that.

5 So, this section, again, this is

6 the stream. Get a little closer, this red line

7 is actually showing the -- and this is from

8 the Army. They're showing where the contour,

9 where the original grade is. There is one

10 portion, and I'll show that in a little bit

11 more detail, where this portion of the street

12 is not meeting the contour. And there's a

13 little portion that's about here that's also

14 not meeting it. So, this is the existing

15 grade, and then this is the change in grade

16 for where the roadway, and then where the

17 columbaria is. And, generally speaking, the

18 contour is here, and that's the portion that

19 the previous speaker was just talking about.

20 When you're putting in the

21 columbaria, they knew that there had to be --

22 they cannot be put -- they have to be put on


Page 144

1 the flat area, so there would have to be some

2 flat area, some retaining walls that were part

3 of the design. At the time that they created

4 the Public Law, they did not have any design

5 that they were kind of looking at.

6 It's fairly clear that there was

7 an intention when the land was transferred

8 that it was to be used for either in-ground

9 burials or for columbaria. And it seems as

10 though this is, minus this little piece, this

11 is generally following the contours that you

12 have.

13 Again, there is a disagreement on

14 that, as you heard. I think that if you look

15 at it, it can be -- can kind of go either way.

16 MEMBER MAY: Can you go back to

17 Slide 11 for a second?

18 MR. HART: Sure.

19 MEMBER MAY: Okay, all the way to

20 the left there, that same dotted line.

21 MR. HART: Yes. Actually, I can

22 show you a little bit more of a --


Page 145

1 MEMBER MAY: Yes.

2 MR. HART: You see that --

3 MEMBER MAY: No, that's not what

4 I'm talking about. I mean, I do want to talk

5 about this.

6 MR. HART: I know, but it's this

7 line that's --

8 MEMBER MAY: That line there, yes.

9 Okay.

10 MR. HART: But, again, that's not

11 Section 29, so --

12 MEMBER MAY: Oh, got it.

13 MR. HART: So I just want to be

14 clear on that. Section 29 is about here in

15 this diagram because, remember, it's this --

16 about where this columbaria is. So, this

17 portion of it is Fort Myer, or was former Fort

18 Myer we're talking about.

19 MEMBER MAY: Okay.

20 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: So, if the

21 roadway is out -- I'm sorry, Peter. So, the

22 roadway is outside of Section 29.


Page 146

1 MR. HART: Yes, in this instance. I

2 think there's a part of it about right here

3 that may be in it, but at that point, I

4 actually don't have a section of it so it's

5 hard for me to tell you where that is at that

6 location.

7 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: I'm sorry, Peter.

8 MEMBER MAY: Can you show the plan

9 again that shows us where the loop road is?

10 MR. HART: Yes.

11 MEMBER MAY: Okay. And why is the

12 þ- is it necessary for there to actually be a

13 loop road, as opposed to a, you know, a loop

14 road, or a road that services the necessary

15 areas rather than cutting through the slope

16 like that?

17 MEMBER PROVANCHA: Isn't part of

18 the explanation is the horses don't go in

19 reverse very well?

20 MR. HART: Yes. I mean, it's -- I

21 know it's -- they have looked at an instance

22 where there is a smaller kind of circle.


Page 147


2 MR. HART: And that was -- I can

3 show you the design if you'd like. I mean,

4 it's --

5 MEMBER MAY: No, I mean, the other

6 thing is that why is that loop road into

7 Section 29 as opposed to the other part of the

8 campus?

9 MS. CONDON: Sir, if I could on why

10 the loop road is not only it's the caissons,

11 but when we have a service we can have up to

12 400 people attending one service, as well. So,

13 it's for flow as well as for the caissons. And

14 the reason why it's in that location is it's

15 because the design took into the topography of

16 what we inherited.

17 MEMBER MAY: You want to explain

18 that again? I'm sorry, I didn't understand

19 that.

20 MS. CONDON: The design and why we

21 have the loop road there is the entire design,

22 and I actually have my project manager here


Page 148

1 who can probably explain it ever better than

2 I am, is the reason why it's there is where we

3 have our in-ground burial and where we have

4 our columbaria, there is a reason why the road

5 is placed where the road is placed. Greg, is

6 there anything you want to add there?

7 MR. HEGGE: No, ma'am.

8 MS. CONDON: Okay.

9 MEMBER MAY: Okay, there is a

10 reason, but, I'm sorry, could somebody explain

11 the reason a little bit, because it's --

12 again, I'm just curious as to why it's not

13 looping. There is room in the other section as

14 opposed to through Section 29.

15 MR. HART: This is probably the

16 best way to show. This is the image showing --

17 this is where that loop road is going to go.

18 This land slopes down. There's actually a

19 drainage area that's included in that portion

20 of the property, and because of where it

21 drains down and up, it would be -- it is --

22 the topographic changes that happen here make


Page 149

1 it really hard to do that, and then have the

2 space to transition up to this road which is

3 at a higher, much higher level.

4 You're talking about a 60-foot

5 drop between here and where this is, and if

6 you move this over here, that means that this

7 gets cut, this gets cut in more, so you're

8 having kind of tiers as you're looking at

9 doing this, doing the kind of -- the lefthand

10 side of this.

11 MEMBER PROVANCHA: Perhaps another

12 way to explain this is for optimal land use

13 planning based on the requirements for the

14 various in-ground versus crematoria and so for

15 the columbarium. This is the optimal placement

16 of the crypt space, the burial space, the

17 cremation space, the niche walls, and so forth

18 and, therefore, what follows is the placement

19 of the road, kind of sequential, linear

20 process, if you will. Is that an accurate

21 description?

22 MS. HAYNES: Can I just say one


Page 150

1 thing? We just -- we had asked and just got

2 the information on, again, the Alternative F

3 that you don't show here that would eliminate

4 that loop road going across the stream. That's

5 really the issue. That's the concern, I think.

6 So, it would not cross the stream, and we just

7 got information just a couple of days ago that

8 the actual number of burial sites would be --

9 exceeds the existing design. And I guess what

10 we were told is that they just want a lot of

11 parking area in the middle of the cemetery,

12 but if you look at the other parts of the

13 cemetery there are other areas that go like

14 this to areas that don't have a huge amount of

15 parking. So, that's really the issue that

16 we've been concerned about, is going across

17 that stream into the very steep ravine. And

18 this alternative avoids that, so we were

19 concerned that this wasn't given adequate

20 consideration.

21 And, also, some of the tree

22 numbers we think are off on this analysis, as


Page 151

1 well. And, also, this analysis said something

2 about it being -- violating the Chesapeake Bay

3 ordinances. Well, actually, the other one is

4 much more likely to because it actually

5 crosses the stream valley, and would be

6 constructed near an existing seat; whereas,

7 this would avoid that. So, that was one of the

8 issues that we had, is why wasn't this given

9 greater consideration in the process?

10 MR. HART: I think this also has

11 impacts to the -- again, this is the 145-year

12 old tree area where these -- there are

13 columbaria you see in this image up here.

14 There are columbaria that would be associated

15 with this. This is where the stream is, so the

16 stream would act -- there would be some -- I'm

17 not sure where the -- what would happen here,

18 but it would likely be that there would have

19 to be either a turning of where the stream is,

20 or it would have to culvert under a portion of

21 this, and then kind of come out at the end.

22 So, there are impacts with -- I guess each of


Page 152

1 the alternatives that they looked at had

2 impacts. And, you know, this is just, again,

3 one of the images that were provided to us.

4 The columbaria in most of the

5 images have -- are shown around where the

6 stream area is, and this is because, again, as

7 I think Commissioner Provancha talked about,

8 this area is where there is kind of a flatter

9 area to be able to put in-ground burials. And

10 then the columbaria are more compact and the

11 ability to put them in the more -- the hillier

12 area seemed to make a little bit more sense.

13 MR. HEGGE: I do want to add, if I

14 can -- thank you, Carlton, you explained it

15 very well.

16 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Can you identify

17 yourself?

18 MR. HEGGE: I'm sorry. I'm Greg

19 Hegge, I'm the Project Manager for the Norfolk

20 District Corps of Engineers. We're the design

21 and construction agent for the cemetery.

22 We conducted multiple planning


Page 153

1 cherettes for this project, and as was pointed

2 out accurately, it is a challenge. Ultimately,

3 the challenge is to strike the balance and to

4 achieve the best use of the land. We have

5 design criteria to deliver a relatively gentle

6 slope for the interment areas for safe

7 operations in burials, et cetera. That is

8 precisely why the large green areas, the

9 interment space and the space for in-ground

10 cremated remains are located where they are.

11 And the more difficult terrain with the

12 flatter, I'm sorry, the steeper slope is more

13 in tune for the columbarium placement.

14 Speaking directly to Alternative F

15 as shown here, you can see along the bottom of

16 the image in the top right image, you can see

17 the orange columbaria courts, and you can see

18 that there is only a very small pedestrian

19 access for those columbaria courts. That was,

20 obviously, one of the negative factors to

21 Alternative F. And that with multiple

22 ceremonies being conducted in this area,


Page 154

1 upwards of four at a time, it is simply

2 unfeasible to not have some sort of access

3 road for those -- the eastern most columbaria

4 structures.

5 It would be a tremendous challenge

6 for those attending a ceremony, possibly two

7 ceremonies in those columbaria structures to

8 park up above and actually walk that distance

9 all the way down, so that became a very

10 negative factor to this alternative.

11 I also wanted to speak briefly, it

12 was mentioned that the impacts to the

13 perennial stream and the intermittent stream

14 and the seat that was mentioned. In the

15 current design concept, I wish I had a laser

16 pointer, we are actually including bottomless

17 arched bridges in multiple locations, each

18 location where a bridge was shown to minimize

19 those impacts to the environment and those

20 water features. Thank you.

21 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Other questions

22 among Committee Members, Commission Members?


Page 155

1 Mr. Provancha.

2 MEMBER PROVANCHA: I have a couple

3 of comments in support of the project. It

4 appears to be a very challenging solution, but

5 meets the spirit and intent. I appreciate very

6 much Mr. Hart's clarification about the

7 relatively small amount of actual excavation

8 in the small portion of this project, so it is

9 consistent, I think, and respectful, and meets

10 the Section 29 requirements to maintain as

11 much as possible the existing contours.

12 I think it was mentioned how

13 supportive the Commission of Fine Arts has

14 been. I think a couple or three years I think

15 is significant, we need to reinforce. I think

16 they're pleased with the Environmental

17 Impacts, the very modest impacts, the

18 protection to the maximum extent of the trees,

19 the stream restoration. I think one of the

20 reports even talks about, not the CFA report

21 but a negative report talks about destruction

22 of a stream but I don't think that's at all


Page 156

1 accurate. I think all the streams, even the

2 intermittent streams are being preserved and

3 restored.

4 Did I understand also that perhaps

5 Columbarium B is coming out, so there's even

6 less impacts? The site might be reserved for

7 future columbarium, but at the most current

8 plan, remove B --

9 MS. CONDON: The most current plan,

10 sir, you are correct. Columbarium B, the one

11 that's that standalone columbarium is going to

12 be taken out of the design.

13 MEMBER PROVANCHA: Got you. And the

14 benefit of that would be even less net loss of

15 trees, at least initially?

16 MS. CONDON: Sir, what it will be,

17 we will not only -- there will be less loss of

18 trees but we will also be able to add more

19 trees into that --

20 MEMBER PROVANCHA: Excellent.

21 MS. CONDON: -- because that area

22 is currently where we have the warehouse which


Page 157

1 right now we would love to put trees back in

2 there rather than have those concrete

3 structures that we currently have.

4 MEMBER PROVANCHA: Right. While

5 you're at the podium, would you also mention

6 the annual tree planting program?

7 MS. CONDON: Well, I can --

8 MEMBER PROVANCHA: I think the

9 Commissioners would benefit from that.

10 MS. CONDON: Literally, we average

11 240 trees a year that we plant in the

12 cemetery, but I just talked to my arborist

13 this morning. We've already planted 115 this

14 spring. And the 240 that we plant, that does

15 not count the family members who donate trees

16 for their loved ones to be placed in the

17 cemetery. So, above and beyond these projects

18 we plant on an average of 240 additional trees

19 in the cemetery.


21 MS. CONDON: And if I may add while

22 we're talking about trees, combined between


Page 158

1 Hurricane Sandy and derecho, we lost 73 of our

2 trees at Arlington National Cemetery, so what

3 we do is we replace those trees that we lose

4 with another tree, but Mother Nature has a

5 tendency to wreak havoc on Arlington as it

6 does Arlington County and everyone else in the

7 District.

8 MEMBER PROVANCHA: Speaking of the

9 trees, for your consideration one way to look

10 at not only the military member remains that

11 go there, but if you will, the horses do their

12 duty and perhaps in a sense metaphorically the

13 trees have done their duty. They have been

14 silent sentinels. They have provided a

15 dignified environment for those very special

16 remains, and perhaps one disposition of the

17 trees as opposed to being land filled or mulch

18 could be -- there was a beam and lintel

19 structure, I don't know if wood was the

20 material of choice for that. Perhaps some of

21 the trees could be recycled and used again,

22 benches, mementoes with their certification of


Page 159

1 authenticity in the gift shop. So, a variety

2 of options might be available to

3 respectfullyþ-

4 MS. CONDON: Yes, and we also --

5 you know, some of our trees that come down we

6 do turn into mulch, and use it throughout the

7 cemetery for our roads and so forth, so that

8 is something that we are looking at as a

9 project.

10 MEMBER PROVANCHA: Great, thank

11 you.

12 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: I have one

13 question, Mr. Hart. I notice in the

14 recommendations it says the cemetery is to

15 reach full capacity in 2023, but on page 7 is

16 says 2025. I just want to make sure the --

17 which is correct.

18 MR. HART: They've actually said

19 two different numbers. And I know that they're

20 talking about 2024 now, so I think that --

21 MS. CONDON: There is a difference

22 for that. It is 2025 for in-ground, and 2024


Page 160

1 for columbarium, so it was 2025. We will

2 correct that for the record.

3 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Yes, I just --

4 the EDR needs to be corrected just for

5 accuracy.

6 MEMBER PROVANCHA: One minor

7 addition, since we're going in that vein,

8 minor correction to the EDR, I think it says

9 previous action, to says no action. I think

10 within the EDR it talks about a November 2008

11 final approval of Columbarium 9.

12 MR. HART: Yes, well the no action

13 is for this particular site. And if you want

14 to get into it, there are quite a few

15 columbaria that have been approved over the

16 last, I don't know, 10 years.

17 MEMBER PROVANCHA: I was referring

18 to the previous action on top of page 3,

19 previous actions by the Committee, or by the

20 Commission.

21 MR. HART: Yes, the previous

22 actions usually pertain to this particular


Page 161

1 site. So, it was just saying that -- I was

2 kind of giving some information about some of

3 the other columbaria that have been --

4 MEMBER PROVANCHA: Thank you for

5 the clarification.

6 MR. HART: There was some

7 confusion, I understand that, but just trying

8 to focus just on this.

9 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Hearing no

10 further discussion, is there further

11 discussion, Mr. May?

12 MEMBER MAY: I mean, I have

13 question. I just -- you know, I'm very

14 sympathetic to the concern about the --

15 holding the topography and the resulting tree

16 loss because it seems to me that those things

17 are tied together.

18 I'm not fully familiar with

19 Environmental Assessment. I know that from a

20 Park Service's perspective in terms of impacts

21 to Arlington House, what's being done is, you

22 know, on balance beneficial to Arlington House


Page 162

1 because the trees there are being preserved

2 and the stream restoration is a benefit from

3 our perspective.

4 But I have to say, you know, the

5 idea of cutting so much into that slope in

6 order to build a roadway is kind of tough to

7 go along with. I mean, it's -- I'm not saying

8 I'm not going to vote for the comments,

9 because this is just comments on the concept,

10 but I would encourage further investigation of

11 how to minimize that cut, and to minimize the

12 tree loss.

13 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Did you want to

14 amend the --

15 MEMBER MAY: I've have to look more

16 carefully at exactly what the action is.

17 MEMBER WRIGHT: Amend the first

18 bullet at the bottom, "Continue to refine the

19 design and minimize harm," maybe add something

20 there if you're inclined.

21 MEMBER PROVANCHA: While Mr. May is

22 reviewing that, I was hoping that he would


Page 163

1 also comment that the stream restoration here

2 is reminiscent of the ICCB project in

3 Bethesda, and should be commended.

4 MEMBER MAY: We're very pleased

5 about the stream restoration here, yes.

6 MEMBER WRIGHT: Peter, I was

7 thinking about -- think you're looking for --

8 MEMBER MAY: Yes, I see there. You

9 know, it says -- the comment there is to

10 explore decreasing the width of the road bed

11 in the area of Arlington House Woods as a way

12 of further reducing tree loss. So, I guess I'm

13 looking for an aspirational statement.

14 MEMBER WRIGHT: I was going to say

15 the same thing.

16 MEMBER MAY: Well, since you're so

17 good at them, you want to make a suggestion,

18 or maybe, Ms. Tregoning, you want to --

19 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: That may be

20 sufficient.

21 MEMBER MAY: Well, no.

22 MEMBER TREGONING: We can entertain


Page 164

1 your aspirational statement.

2 MEMBER MAY: I would urge the

3 Department of the Army to look at decreasing

4 the -- I would just say encourage a thorough

5 exploration of decreasing the width, you know,

6 beef it up a little bit. I mean, unless you

7 want to push farther.

8 MEMBER WRIGHT: Do you want to be

9 that specific? Decreasing the width, or do you

10 want to --

11 MEMBER MAY: Well, this is what's

12 already --

13 MEMBER WRIGHT: -- make a more

14 general aspirational statement about tree

15 loss?

16 MEMBER MAY: Well, this is what's

17 already in the statement.

18 MEMBER WRIGHT: Right.

19 MEMBER MAY: Is decreasing the

20 width of the road bed in the area of Arlington

21 House as a way of further reducing tree loss.

22 I mean, I think that's what it boils down to


Page 165

1 here. I mean, are you seeing a broader issue

2 with tree loss due to other factors other than

3 the width of the roadway?

4 MEMBER WRIGHT: Well, I think --

5 are you asking me?

6 MEMBER MAY: Yes, I'm asking you.

7 MEMBER WRIGHT: I think tree --

8 significant tree loss is unavoidable.

9 MEMBER MAY: Absolutely.

10 MEMBER WRIGHT: But I don't think

11 there's anything wrong with making -- yes, an

12 aspirational statement --

13 MEMBER MAY: Okay.

14 MEMBER WRIGHT: -- that this be of

15 paramount concern through design development.


17 MEMBER WRIGHT: I think we're

18 stating the obvious, and they're making

19 efforts to do that, but maybe a little

20 encouragement for sustained effort through

21 design development is not a bad idea.

22 MEMBER MAY: I don't disagree, so


Page 166

1 we would -- again, a thorough exploration of

2 decreasing the width of the road bed and any

3 other available means.

4 MEMBER WRIGHT: Right. I don't

5 think that I would limit the aspirational

6 statement to the width of the road bed.

7 MEMBER MAY: Right, and I agree

8 with you. I wouldn't limit it. I would still

9 want to mention it, though.

10 MEMBER WRIGHT: Fine.

11 MEMBER MAY: Okay. Anybody capture

12 anything that I wrote there, or that I said

13 there?

14 MEMBER TREGONING: Right here,

15 you'd encourage a thorough exploration of

16 decreasing the width of the road bed in the

17 area of the Arlington House Woods and other

18 means of further reducing tree loss.

19 MEMBER PROVANCHA: Do we need to be

20 reminded and acknowledge that we're nearly at

21 100 percent design in order to meet deadline

22 for public comment period? Did I hear --


Page 167

1 MEMBER MAY: I would be very, very

2 disturbed to learn that they're nearly 100

3 percent designed, when you're in the middle of

4 an EA. So, really don't want to --

5 MEMBER PROVANCHA: What was the

6 reference earlier to the --

7 MEMBER WRIGHT: Aren't we at

8 concept?

9 MR. HEGGE: The comment earlier was

10 the concern about us advancing so far in the

11 design stage when the EA has not yet been

12 finalized and signed, and that is accurate. It

13 is regrettable that our schedules are such

14 that we are advancing on parallel tracks more

15 or less. That is not to say that we are not

16 still incorporating comments learned through

17 the NEPA process into our design.

18 MEMBER WRIGHT: So, if you were to

19 give a percentage of where you are in design

20 development, what would you say it is? Is it

21 really near 100 percent?

22 MR. HEGGE: Very close, ma'am.


Page 168

1 MEMBER PROVANCHA: That's

2 disturbing.

3 MR. HEGGE: We're --

4 MEMBER WRIGHT: That's a shame. You

5 had me until then.

6 MEMBER PROVANCHA: But there are

7 acknowledged changes, such as the deletion of

8 Columbarium B, and other refinements that you

9 continue to make.

10 MR. HEGGE: And I would like to

11 clarify, also, for the record that a previous

12 draft of the Environmental Assessment was

13 released in December, comments were captured

14 in December and early January. And based on

15 those comments, we have incorporated and

16 changed the design of the project. And if I

17 could have a project graphic, I could point

18 some of those out.

19 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Mr. Hart, did you

20 have something to add?

21 MR. HART: No.



Page 169

1 MR. HEGGE: If I could just see the

2 overall project image I could point out some

3 of those design changes based on the comments

4 received. Specifically, one of the areas where

5 we have reduced the width of the road.

6 MEMBER PROVANCHA: Yes, that would

7 be helpful. Thank you.

8 MEMBER WRIGHT: Can I ask a

9 question, though, before you start that? So,

10 I -- when are you -- when is the construction

11 schedule, when are you supposed to get, you

12 know, notice to proceed and go?

13 MR. HEGGE: Ideally --

14 MEMBER WRIGHT: In real life, not

15 in fantasy land.

16 MR. HEGGE: We're targeting an

17 aggressive contract award at the end of

18 September.

19 MEMBER WRIGHT: Contract award, but

20 notice to proceed would be?

21 MR. HEGGE: Weeks after that.

22 MEMBER WRIGHT: Wow. So, if you're


Page 170

1 close to 100 percent, you still have time to

2 make changes if they need to be.

3 MR. HEGGE: Yes, ma'am.

4 MEMBER WRIGHT: Because you're not

5 swinging a hammer until the fall or digging a

6 hole. So, okay. Never mind. I'll ask later.

7 MR. HEGGE: Based on comments

8 received, the portion of the loop road that

9 does pass, if I could go to the previous image

10 that I just saw, the overall project graphic.

11 Just the overall project graphic, the current

12 rendering. Yes, any one of those.

13 The portion on the very bottom of

14 the image, the loop road on the very bottom,

15 that portion of that road has been reduced

16 from 30 feet down to 22 feet, and that is to

17 allow parking on one side of the road for

18 ceremonies while allowing a separate lane of

19 traffic to pass by. The remaining width, the

20 remaining portions of the road are all 30

21 feet, and that's to allow parking on both

22 sides of the road for ceremonies up in the


Page 171

1 interment areas, as well as a possible

2 simultaneous ceremony down in the columbaria

3 area, and allow one lane of traffic to pass

4 through including emergency vehicles,

5 ambulance, fire truck.

6 A couple of the design changes, if

7 you can go to the image that shows the purple

8 bridges. Okay, so based on the comments

9 received already in the NEPA process, the very

10 bottom loop road, the southern bridge, that

11 portion of the road has been realigned. It

12 bumps out a little bit. You know, it looks odd

13 when you look at it from this perspective, but

14 previously it was more of a consistent arc. We

15 bumped that road out a little bit and that was

16 to miss and avoid a large stand of very

17 valuable red oaks in that area, so we're

18 saving those trees.

19 The large arch bridge that goes

20 over the perennial streams, we realigned that

21 road again to save a large dense stand of

22 valuable trees. And the other smaller arch


Page 172

1 bridge, that is actually on the pedestrian

2 walkway, as all of those are arch structures

3 and allows wildlife to naturally traverse

4 underneath them compared to a box covered,

5 more of a rigid structure. Thank you.

6 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: I would say that

7 by proceeding to 100 percent you may have

8 taken us for granted a little bit. Any further

9 discussion, Mr. Miller?

10 MEMBER MILLER: Thank you, Mr.

11 Chairman. I just have a question for Mr. Hart,

12 and maybe one for Ms. Condon.

13 The maintenance facility, is that

14 staying or being relocated somewhere else?

15 MR. HART: They're looking at

16 relocating it, and it's probably best for them

17 to tell you.

18 MEMBER MILLER: Yes, we don't know

19 where is that going to go, and if you could

20 speak just for a minute briefly as to what

21 your longer term solutions are beyond the 12

22 years that this will buy.


Page 173

1 MS. CONDON: The maintenance

2 facility, sir, that is there is really a

3 contractor maintenance yard, so what we're

4 doing is we're moving that to a current area

5 in the cemetery where we have a contractor for

6 the Potomac Interceptor project that is going

7 to be finishing that. We will move it there.

8 I'm sorry. So, what we will do -- and we're

9 also lessening the footprint of what we

10 provide for the maintenance yard because in

11 the section there now you give them space,

12 they expand to the space, so that will be

13 located to another section of the cemetery

14 where we currently have a spoils area for this

15 one. And, I'm sorry, the second question?

16 MEMBER MILLER: Briefly, what your

17 longer term capacity expansion plans are since

18 this will only -- this project will only get

19 you 7-12 years.

20 MS. CONDON: Right. And then, sir,

21 as you know, we also have the Navy Annex

22 property which is where the Air Force Memorial


Page 174

1 is. That is -- those buildings are currently

2 being taken down and we were just appropriated

3 the dollars in our FY13 to start the planning

4 and design for the Navy Annex project. So,

5 that will be our next expansion project.

6 It will allow us to have our first

7 interment space well into the 2050s. And for

8 those that aren't cemeterians, I wasn't one

9 until June 10th of 2010, what first interment

10 space means is it's the first burial of a

11 veteran or their loved one. There is always a

12 subsequent burial of a spouse, and that will

13 extend well beyond 2050, but it will extend

14 our first burial space to 2050 with the Navy

15 Annex project.

16 MEMBER MILLER: Thank you.

17 MEMBER PROVANCHA: If I could add,

18 that project is on track, actually even ahead

19 of schedule, and that will turn over more than

20 40 acres, so tremendous capacity with that

21 adjacent site. Very good joint planning with

22 Arlington County and some of the other


Page 175

1 inhabitants, proper optimal placement of the

2 facilities. For example, south of Columbia

3 Pike in an effort to minimize caissons passing

4 back and forth from the two portions of the

5 site, lots of options on the table. Arlington

6 County, for example, would like to have a

7 Freedman's Heritage Museum Center. There's

8 opportunities to do some joint planning for

9 visitor centers for the very close by Pentagon

10 Memorial, and the Air Force Memorial, and

11 Arlington, and the cemetery. So, it's lots of

12 opportunities to jointly plan those areas.

13 MEMBER MAY: So, will we see that

14 before the drawings are nearly 100 percent

15 complete?

16 MEMBER PROVANCHA: We would hate to

17 fail to meet your expectations to bring you

18 anything less than 100 percent.

19 MEMBER MAY: Yes, the normal --

20 what's normal for concept, 30 percent,

21 something like that?

22 MEMBER MAY: So, Mr. Chairman, I


Page 176

1 would suggest, or I would move that we modify

2 that one bullet point as Ms. Tregoning had

3 recapped it for us.

4 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Yes, something

5 along the lines of encourage a thorough

6 exploration of decreasing the width of the

7 road bed in the area of the Arlington House

8 Woods, and other means for further reducing

9 tree loss.

10 MEMBER MAY: Yes.


12 MEMBER PROVANCHA: In modest

13 opposition to that, the Army has shared with

14 me that they are willing, more than willing,

15 and have clearly demonstrated their

16 willingness to fulfill all four of these

17 expectations for subsequent submissions, as

18 currently stated.

19 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: So, the amendment

20 has been moved and I presume there's a second?

21 MEMBER TREGONING: Second.



Page 177

1 and seconded, so this vote is on the amendment

2 only. All in favor of the amendment say aye.

3 (Chorus of ayes.)


5 MEMBER PROVANCHA: No.

6 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: One no. Now

7 before us is the amended EDR. Any further

8 discussion?

9 (No response.)

10 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Hearing none, all

11 in favor of the amended EDR say aye.


13 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Opposed, no? That

14 wasn't moved. Oh, is there a motion on the

15 EDR, as amended?

16 MEMBER HART: So moved.

17 MEMBER MILLER: Second.


19 and seconded. Forgive me. All in favor of the

20 amended EDR say aye.


22 CHAIRMAN BRYANT: Opposed, no? It's


Page 178

1 approved. Any further business to come before

2 us?

3 (No response.)


5 thank you for a very good meeting, and we are

6 adjourned.

7 (Whereupon, the proceedings went

8 off the record at 3:40 p.m.).

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

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Page 202

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Page 203

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NEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of:

Before:

Date:

Place:

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under

my direction; further, that said transcript is a

true and accurate record of the proceedings.

----------------------- Court Reporter

204

Open Meeting

National Capital Planning Commission

04-04-13

Washington, DC

Documents

€¦ · 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 1 NATIONAL CAPITAL PLANNING COMMISSION + + + + + COMMISSION MEETING + + + + + OPEN SESSION + + + + + THURSDAY, APRIL 4