Debra Ruh: Hello everyone. This is Debra Ruh and you are watching or listening to Human Potential at Work. As a reminder, I am the CEO of Ruh Global and we are proud to be market influencers and strategists for the community of people with disabilities and the aging market.

Today, I have somebody that’s become very dear to me and I was fortunate enough to meet him when I was speaking in Oslo Norway. His name is Gagan Chhabra and he is PhD student and really he already has his PhD but he just hasn’t done the… picked it up I guess. And so, we’re really really excited to have you on the program Gagan. So, let’s start by talking a little bit about who you are and then move into your work.

Gagan Chhabra: First things first Debra, I’m so happy that you invited me to this podcast and I’m really fortunate that you are with me and sharing this moment. So, talking about myself, like I was born and brought up in India. I moved to Norway almost six years ago in 2012 and I started working on this team of disability and employment three years ago approximately. And I was extremely fortunate that I was born in a city called [Azan Dabal] [PH 0:01:42.4] on the west coast of India, the same province from where Mahatma Gandhi comes from. It’s called as Gujarat and was fortunate that my family was really progressive. They kind of made sure that I end up getting the best education possible in India. Did my management from one of the best business schools in India and perhaps in the world, the Indian Institute of Management Bangalore ended up landing in Norway six years ago I ended up towards disability policies and social research in general and here I am in Berkeley doing as a visiting researcher and I’m talking to you at this very moment.

Debra: Yes. And I’m very excited to have you here in the United States. So, Gagan, tell me, tell the audience why do you care about the disability community.

Gagan: So, I have a vision impairment. I was born and brought up in India as I mentioned and at the age of 10, I was diagnosed with the problem called Retinitis pigmentosa. And back in the day in India, when it comes to disability, person is pigeon hold into a box or a category that here is a person, here is a person called as Debra. She has this problem. Or Gagan, he has this problem and that’s it. And then people stop thinking about

the potentiality of the individual; the resources, the capabilities which the individual has and that is a major problem and I realized that very early.

You know, when people started questioning me at the age of 11 that, “should you be sending Gagan to Saviour’s school?”, “should you be sending him to become this management consultant?”, “What he wants to become?”, “Should he have some other dreams?”, “could you take up auditing, advance accountancy and statistics as courses?” all of those questions about expectations from society that what I can do or cannot do started coming to me. So, it was always in the back of the mind that I have to do something related to this. But again, like as I mentioned, I was… the career was heading towards the management consultation towards business development and I just did not think that I would be able to do something on the disability branch but then, I got the chance. Went to a workshop conference, whatever you want to call it, in India back in 2011. It was about policy and disability and it’s connection to shame and I spoke there and it was just a beautiful experience and then I realize I was 24 years back then and I realize that it is so important that I cannot just pass as a person who can manage without talking about disability. Without exploring it further and without advocating for it for the rest of the people around.

So, that’s when I attributed towards disability research, disability policies. Came to Norway, took a masters in international social welfare and subsequently masters in special education and now I’m finishing off the PhD in social research on social policy. So yes, it was a… it was kind of emerging on my personal experience of living with the visual impairment, with the disability in a society which is the point of departure they have is disability is highly stigmatized.

Debra: Right.

Gagan: On societal expectations and then fighting it off. Of course, as I mentioned, without the support of my family who were really kind, progressive, thoughtful, enlightened, I would not have made it. And since now when I’m sitting here talking to you, sitting in Berkeley, I feel that… Voltaire once said and Spiderman popularized this that, “with great

power comes with great responsibility.” I feel that I have the privilege to do something fantastic and to start a global dialogue on themes of disability.

Debra: And I think that global north and south conversation; it is critical. And it feels… especially with some political people, these days saying that, “let’s just take care of our own countries.” Everybody take care of your own countries. I think the work that you’re doing to make sure that we’re one world and that we’re all included in some of the data you’ve found for your research…

and we’re going to put out some research that just got published today in Norway and we have an English version of as well and I’ll put it not only in the Facebook link but we’ll also put it with the show and everything else so we make sure that people find it. But, I thought it was very interesting the work that you done when you’re comparing youth with disabilities in India versus youth with disabilities in Norway. Those two countries were so different and now, you’re actually… you know, you’ve been invited by Berkeley. They want to understand your work and explore your work and so now you’re looking at also youth with disabilities here in the United States which I think is fascinating. So, tell us more about your work.

Gagan: Yes. Like, you got the nail on its head. You know, often, people just thinking a very colloquial, provincial and tribal senses right now at this very moment because of this rhetoric at the political level about America first and Brexit and about this whole movement towards let us take care of our people first or us versus them. What I’m actually planning to do is I’m planning to trace convergences or lapse when it comes to the disability policies and the employment experiences of disabled youth in Norway and India. And you’re right when you pointed out that both the countries are so different; they are two worlds apart.

When you pick up any micro level factor Debra, if it’s economic factor, social, political, cultural, legal, demographic, pick up any factor and you’ll find Norway and India are standing on two different sides of the coast. But when it comes to disability policy, what I was curious that since

Americans with disability act was introduced in 1990, has the disability landscape changed in these countries? And if it is change, how does it look like? And what are the factors if it’s becoming a bit more similar. When I started, I started taking the bird’s-eye view about the disability policy landscape in these countries and what I found is something which was very interesting that policies adjust social regulations which are antidiscrimination legislation, universal design norm, accessibility principles, all these are kind of becoming a global norm whether we like it or not.

Debra: Yes.

Gagan: People across the world are talking about these policies. People across the world are making an effort to implement these policies and it’s not just only in the rich developed global countries that antidiscrimination is in think if I may say so. So, that’s where… for instance, like my research kind of fits in and states that, “okay. When it comes to do this kind of policies, they are becoming similar in these two very different countries like Norway and India.”

So, we are kind of looking at similar problems and policy makers are sitting together around the table and saying, “we have to find that common solution to the similar problems.” Which are contextual but at the same time, the problems are much more global, universal. Say for instance, when I interviewed policy experts and youth with visual disabilities in Oslo and New Delhi, what I found out which is very interesting is that youth in Oslo is saying to me that, “when I go for an interview and I say that I’m not visually impaired on my resume, I get call for the interview. But when I reach there with my white cane, the interviewer just say to me, ‘oh. Gee! You have a disability. We do not know that you have a disability. We just find someone else’”

So, this is happening in Oslo. It’s not… this kind of experience is not restricted to the developing world. The world which is global south, that’s what we call them, right? So, the point of departure was initially the idea that Norway has this open inclusive accessible and enlightened welfare state and a labor market which is very inclusive but perhaps there is more

than what meets the eye and one has to be a bit more honest about having this conversation. Not just in the Norwegian context.

I was in the lighthouse for blind and visually impaired in San Francisco just two weeks ago and I went to a youth employment series program and here I was talking to youth or like in the age group of 14 to 24 years old and when I asked them what kind of challenges they have faced, they come up with the similar stories Debra. You would be shocked, appalled to listen to the stories about being bullied at school. The society having low expectations from them. People asking them, “why do you want to work?” “How would you be able to work?”, “Would you… do you know how to use computers?”, “Do you know how to send emails?” All these things and people kind of enforcing their will, their priorities on these people who are from San Francisco which was the birth place of… Berkeley which is the birth place of disability rights movement in United States and champion in the world.

So that’s where for instance my research kind of brings us to the common table and say to all the stakeholders involve that perhaps the employment values which we use to our people with disabilities face are much more ubiquitous than what we want to accept. Perhaps the strategies which policy makers are coming up is a lot more similar in its intent than what we want to accept. And now, the important thing is, that’s where the proof of the pooling is going to be that can be come up with the consensus to move along and implement these policies and kind of create an ecosystem wherein people with disabilities in general and youth, because youth with disabilities is a very very marginalized group.

Debra: Yes.

Gagan: Because if you think about this Debra, when people talk about young people; they talk about creative people, energetic people, the changes of the model but then, the moment you talk about youth with disabilities, they’re like, “oh. You have a disability.” And you know, the idea is that disability is disempowering. People are just purely hopeless, helpless victims. People are not able to take care of themselves. They are more dependent, they are care receivers. All these narratives start to pick in

and then it kind of problematizes the whole youth narrative. And what I want to say is one has to have an honest dialogue about these things in a global North rich developed country and a global south developing country context and say that youth with disabilities could be agents of change.

Debra: Yes. And I know some of these things are happening. I told this story before but, there was a very talented woman with a visible disability and she had all the educational degree, she had a wonderful background, she was looking for a position and she was brought from the East Coast to the United States to the West Coast for a job interview. And when she came in for the interview in her scooter, the recruiter looked at her and said, “Oh. I’m sorry. The job has been filled.”

Gagan: Yes.

Debra: Now, we all know what that means. We’re not going to hire you because you have a disability and this was for a senior position. So, she didn’t take the position… well, you know, she didn’t get that position but another more enlightened corporation got that position and there are so many examples. And I find that even with my daughter with disabilities, we were always… the bar was set so low for her. So low for her.

Gagan: Sure.

Debra: So, if we’re creating all these wonderful legislation; we have the UN convention on the rights of persons with disabilities, we were… in the United States, we’re suing organizations, corporations that don’t include us. You know, we’re suing the… your websites are inaccessible. But if all of the stuff that we’re doing is not changing things for people with disabilities, what should we be doing? And I know this is what your research is…

Gagan: Yes.

Debra: Exploring. And I believe we need all these things in place. We need legislations, we need all the stuff that’s being done but the reality is, we’re still looking at people with disabilities as if they are not valuable to society. And I know, you and I have had so many discussions about this including… you know, it came out in the Scandinavian countries that they had successfully wiped out down syndrome and many know my daughter

has down syndrome. And I thought, “Okay. What?” and so, I went and I researched it and of course realized that through technology, we know that within two weeks, you can find out if the foetus that you’re carrying has down syndrome and if they do, you just you know, take care of the problem and try again as Richard Dawson so famously and inappropriately said.

Gagan: Yes.

Debra: But the thing… I know you and I have had this conversation. I do not think that we are evolved enough as human beings to decide that certain segments of our society like people with down syndrome, they don’t even deserved to be born.

Gagan: Yes.

Debra: And what could go wrong with that? And by the way, not everybody is going to get that test within two weeks and… so, I love the Scandinavian countries and they’re considered the most enlightened in the world but, if we’re having newspaper articles come out that we’re so proud of doing this, it just makes me wonder… and as you said, then who else doesn’t belong? So, okay, we’re going to get rid of all the people with Down syndrome. And of course this will remind us of other times in history where we decided people didn’t deserve to be alive.

Gagan: Yes.

Debra: I think it’s a really slippery slope. So, I want you to comment on that but also, I want you to talk about… so, what do we do? Because what I find is most of the people, not every single person with the disability I’ve met but most of the people that I meet with disabilities, I find that they’re innovators. They’re proof of powers. They’re very tenacious. They want to make a difference. They don’t want anybody in their way. And when I met you, I was so impressed with your wisdom, your education. You know, what you had to say, your desire to really make a difference in the world.

I consider you youth. You’re 32 years old. I’m much older than that. But, how do we change things and so that we stop feeling sorry for people

with disabilities and understand they have all the same abilities that everybody else does? Yes, maybe you use a screen reader and maybe you travel with you know a sighted guide because that make sense but to decide that you don’t add value Gagan because you’re blind or vision impaired, I think is a loss, I know for sure is loss to the world. So, how do we start changing the conversation and make sure that the younger people as well as others are really able to find their voice and show the world what you’re capable of doing?

Gagan: It’s a… it’s such an important question Debra, the one which you’re asking right now, that how do we change the situation. Because think of this, when I came to the United States and when I started digging into the data in United States, often, they talk about this 30 percent number. You know, like that people with disabilities, approximately 30 percent of them are unemployed in the United States.

If I take it back, two steps back and go to Norway and check the numbers there, there’s a 43 percent of people with disabilities unemployed. That’s compared to 75 to 80 percent of people without disabilities. And the same is the case in India. Like the statistics paint the same grim picture. It doesn’t matter which country you pick up. And you give this example that how corporations are being sued in the United States.

I had the great fortune to meet Lanie Fengol, our common friend and we talked about structured negotiation and her beautiful work of getting people on the table and not just suing the corporations and scaring them that if you don’t do this, they’re going to sue you and you have to pay this money. So, moving beyond fear is the key. So for instance, let me take… let me take two steps back and explain this.

In my understanding, it’s not just about the fix which you use as government or as civil society or as members of enlightened community, disability community to force somebody to give in and to say, “Yes. You have to solve this problem because it is there in the law. And if you don’t do it, then we will come after you.” That’s not the only way of doing it.

It’s really important to be much more collaborative, much more cooperative. Kind of use sermons if I may say so. Kind of come up with the mechanism that people can talk about… talk about sharing of best practices. People can talk about transferring information from different… do knowledge transfer. Come up with the mechanism that everybody can be on the same page about disability. And as I said, we have to change the conversation that now we are living in 21st century in the age of artificial intelligence, reading with the screen reader capacity like excellent support systems.

So, the important thing is this, that how do we leverage this to make sure that people with disabilities can have voice. Can come up and say that, “listen, I am functioning. I am capable. I’m willing and able to work. You just have to give me an opportunity.” And the important thing is this, that you must be aware of the statistics from CDC. 25 percent of people with disabilities are there in the general population in the United States which is approximately 75 million people.

Debra: Right.

Gagan: Think of it. It’s a huge chunk of population. It’s not like a small fringe margin sitting in the edge of the society, on the bottom ground of the society. It’s a huge chunk of population. We cannot just don’t apply and die or just say, “no. these people exist. So be it.” you know. We can’t exclude them from education system. We can’t exclude them from labor markets. We can’t marginalize them and push them out from the societal sphere of community participation. We have to somehow come up with the mechanism that we start an honest, open dialogue. We put disability on the agenda of policy makers, of civil society people, of business corporate leaders and say that, “listen, let us… before you talk about disability and impairment, we first are humans.” And like the humans, they have fears, aspirations, expectations. We want to excel in whatever we can do best. I want to contribute. I want to have a meaningful life. And if we start humanizing disability, if we start explicating to people or leading by example and also giving people a chance and voice that, “listen, disability is like any other immutable characteristic.”

Debra, I was… I was not born with blond hair and blue eyes. Unfortunately or fortunately. I did not choose that. Right? The color of my skin is not chosen by me. My visual impairment was never chosen by me. It’s kind of this quintessential Universalist immutable characteristic which we are dealing with disability or impairment.

Some people end up being six feet tall; others are five feet four inch tall. Some people end up having weaker eyes or visual impairment; others have sharper eyes, no visual impairment. Some people are like Usain Bolt who can run really fast; others use a wheelchair to move around. To walk around on wheelchair if I may use that phrase.

So, we have to have this honest conversation about the fact that here we are in a society when in the past, disability was this medicalized category and then the disability activists came up and said, “no. disability is not a medicalize category. It’s the society which oppresses disabled people and the social model of disability to cower.” And now we’re in the phase wherein we have to talk about the universality of disability. The ubiquity of suffering and say that this is quintessential element of human existence.

Just a quick… just a quick side track if I may add this. You know, when Buddha… Buddha was never a Buddha by default. You know, he was not born Buddha. He became Buddha and he was Siddhartha. King Siddhartha or prince Siddhartha. So, there’s this fantastic story which is told about him.

So, how do we transition from becoming this regular run of the mill prince to Buddha, the enlightened one? He was in his palace. He ended up seeing a thick person, disabled person, a person who was old, who was dying and then he started contemplating about these three things. You know, the sickness, disability aspect of life, the old age aspect of life and the fact that everyone of us, we’re going to die. This aspect of life.

He said, “It doesn’t matter if I’m a prince or if I’m popular. I have a common fate.” And the moment he started contemplating about that, he said, “no. this is universal and one has to kind of come up with the way of having… you know, maximizing wellbeing.” And that’s where he became enlightened.

So, again, the point is, there’s a one… we have to have this kind of dialogue wherein we tell the corporate world not to be afraid of disability just as the way 40 50 years ago, they were afraid of hiding people from different places or people… women were not part of the labor market for instance but the needle has shifted. Eight years ago, we had Barack Obama as the president of… the most powerful man in the world and that happened because of the fact that we have evolved. On the same way, in the similar fashion, we have to kind of evolve as society. Kind of come up with the mechanism that we don’t pigeon hold people. We don’t… we are not categories. We are… we are humans. So, in a nutshell, let’s humanized disability. Let us make it… make it a human trait and a ubiquitous condition.

Debra: I agree. And that’s one reason why I started Human Potential at Work. You know with the play on words because…

Gagan: Yes.

Debra: You know, when I was telling Doug Foresta, our producer about you, I was telling him, “he’s from India, he’s worked in Norway. He’s got multiple masters degrees. Got his PhD.” And I explained characteristics of you and your achievements and then I said, “Oh yes. And also, he’s you know, blind or vision impaired.” Only, I did it deliberately like that because often, that’s the first thing we start with. “Let me tell you who Gagan is. Well, Gagan is you know, blind. Just use that.” That totally misses the point of who you are.

And also, as a reminder to the audience, 80 percent of people with disabilities were not born with them. I mean, when Sara was born, Sara

had an extra chromosome you know. So I think that’s really cool. She has an extra chromosome. But it’s who she is at every aspect. You know, that’s just who she is and she has added a lot of value to the world. And I think we… you know, if we start breaking down what it means to be human being and also Gagan, as we age, we acquire disabilities and…

Gagan: Yes.

Debra: There are 72 million Americans that are now 54 years or older and that’s just from the US ones. There are baby boomers all over the world and we’re acquiring disabilities for the first time in our lives.

Gagan: Yes.

Debra: So, I’m just curious and I’m being very sarcastic here but…

Gagan: Yes.

Debra: If we decided that people aren’t valuable, let’s say it’s a vision loss…

Gagan: Yes.

Debra: Am I valuable at 2020? Yes. Okay. You’re valuable at 2020. Am I valuable at 2040 eye sight? 20 80? Where is that line where all of a sudden, I can add no value to the world? I think if you start breaking it down then we’re actually going to write a book about this, aren’t we Gagan?

Gagan: Definitely. Debra, that book is like about talking about this quintessential elemental of human existence, disability.

Debra: Right. What makes us human and how dare any of us decide that another person is not human enough?

Gagan: Right.

Debra: What in the world is that even about? And then, I’ve spent so much in my career… I recently wrote the book “Inclusion Branding” and you know…

Gagan: Yes.

Debra: I’ve got great reviews but it’s hard. Sometimes I get very discouraged because in the United States, a lot of the corporations I’m dealing with, they’re terrified of this community. They’re afraid that we’re going to… we keep suing them which we are going to keep doing. If you do not

include us, we’re going to keep suing you. And I’m very pro corporations but, I’m getting a little aggravated with the lack of progress and I will…

Gagan: Yes.

Debra: Get a hold of my attitude and I’ll be good but this is ridiculous. We know that including people with disabilities in your workforce is good for business. This is not just about you being sued or not sued; it is good for business. And we see stories… I had Cisco on, Patrick Romzek who is formerly with Cisco and he talked about the… they hired a group of people with, excuse me, that were blind and vision impaired and they were so impressed because what they found was not only were these great employees, okay…

Gagan: Yes.

Debra: But they were twice as more… that they were twice… they were two times as productive as their counter parts that weren’t blind and they were empathetic with the customers. They got better reviews from the customers because the customers don’t know. I’m talking to you on the phone. They don’t know I’m blind or vision impaired but they just know you’re empathetic about their problem. And they found that these employees were amazing. And you know, we have study after study after study and research and data that proves that people with disabilities add great value to the workforce but you talked about this earlier. It’s about fear. It’s a fear of the unknown.

And also, I want to make one more rant and then I’m going to stop but, even the people with disabilities that are employed are grossly under employed. If you’re a person with autism or you’re a person with Down syndrome, go bag groceries or work in the mail room.

Gagan: Yes.

Debra: What? Wait a minute, what if I am a very talented programmer or I’m very talented musician or I’m talented at a billion things because we’re talking about billions of human beings…

Gagan: Yes.

Debra: It’s… I just think it is really time to humanize this conversation. So, let me give you a moment to talk. I threw a lot at you.

Gagan: Yes. No. you’re spot on. And I think that we have to have this conversation about humanizing disability at this very moment in human history. Because listen Debra, I have done this experiment in my head many times you know. We are at the time… we’re at the cusp of technology, disruptive technology change wherein in 10, 20 30, 40 years from now, we are talking about a cyborg future. We are talking about augmented reality. We’re talking about…

Think of the time for instance you know, 10 20 years on the line they come up with the chip wherein I could put into my eye and I cannot just see you and your face and everything… and all the beautiful features but I could see way beyond. I could see… I could see the things like light to the miniscule details you know. The pixels and so on. And then perhaps… and you don’t have that capacity to see those pixels and…

Debra: Right.

Gagan: And augment… and augment your reality. And if I have that power, are you disabled for me? Do I become a superhuman?

Debra: Right.

Gagan: If I have that chip in my eye for instance. Or for instance if I have a chip in the ear and if I was hard of hearing and now I’m able to hear ultrasound… these sounds which are only heard by bats and dogs, I’m forgetting its name, ultrasonic sounds. Yes.

Debra: Right.

Gagan: If I’m able to hear that and you’re not able to hear it, are you disabled? Do you understand?

Debra: I do understand.

Gagan: So, we’re trying to…

Debra: Are you more human… are you more human now than I am?

Gagan: Exactly.

Debra: Are you a better human than I am. Are you a superhuman?

Gagan: Exactly. But that where for instance [Inaudible 0:32:08.4] whether we like it or not… oh, it’s very far off. It will happen in 30, 40, 50 years. I can grant them that. Okay, perhaps it happens in 70 years but then, does that mean that the people who will end up having these augmented chips, these incredible technology wearing it or implanting it on their bodies, will they… will they start becoming superhuman and the ones who are so called “normal people” of today will become disabled?

Debra: Right.

Gagan: So one has to already want discussion about these topics right now you know. At this very moment in our history because we are heading towards that very exciting but at the same time, a bit scary future. As you mentioned about couple of things with Sara and down syndrome, it actually breaks my heart that you know, when people say that they can… that one life is worth… more invaluable compared to the other life for instance you know…

Debra: Yes.

Gagan: Because we have already in 20th century gone through that part and you know that that’s a horrifying terrifying part. And thousands, 70,000 people with disability people were killed under the Nazi regime…

Debra: Right.

Gagan: Before 1945 and we don’t want to go there. We think that humanity is capable of far better compassion, empathy than that… than that phase. That was like a dark side of humanity. We want to rise far above that. We want to create as much of a level playing field as we can. We want to kind of make the society as inclusive and as just as we can.

Not just… not just for the rich world but in the four parts of the world. Because often, you know these kind of conversations are high jacked and people just talk about for instance the OECD countries. The global settings but we have to kind of say that yes. We should start the

conversation from here but we should take it to the four corners of the earth. We should go to Mozambique, to South Africa, to Burkina Faso. From there to India, Bangladesh, Vietnam, parts of Latin America, Bolivia, Paraguay, Uruguay and make a case that people with disabilities are people first.

Let us start drilling that idea into people’s head. And it’s hard for people to appreciate that right now just as the way was hard back in the time for people to appreciate that women can work. Women could get education. Women can be successful lawyers and can run for becoming a president of the United States. It was… it was just a pipe dream back in the day but now have become a reality. And we have to kind of change the conversation. Change the tone. Make corporates understand that no longer can they sit on the fences and say, “yes. We’re doing our level best. We have a diversity policy. We have inclusion policy.”

Debra: Right.

Gagan: We have to kind of say to them that what actually are you doing when it comes to involving people with disabilities into mainstream employment? What actually are schools doing to make sure that people with disabilities or students with disabilities get a fair shot at getting the best education they can have? You know, for instance, I heard these stories from India when people… some exceptionally talented youth with visual disabilities told me that when they were growing up, they were said, “oh. You don’t have to take mathematics. You can take music. Oh. It’s alright.” Or for instance youth in Oslo, when they were going to the mathematics class, some of the teachers end up saying to them, “you don’t have to be in this class. You can just go out and play.”

Debra: Right.

Gagan: The moment teacher ends up saying that to a student with disability or child with disability, what they are saying is they have two different expectations. There are two different bars and we’re setting the bar so low for you and perhaps the children or student might just take the lower bar not knowing the consequences of that. Not knowing that they will not internalize this low social expectations. Not knowing that this low social expectation or this low expectation from a teacher is going to come

back at them and say, “Oh. Perhaps employers think of me like this. And I have to just follow it. Follow that cue. Perhaps the welfare state bureaucracy thinks like this for me and I have to just follow this. Perhaps my colleagues say to me or my family member say to me ‘gee! You cannot have a family. It will be very difficult for you to have family.’, ‘oh. Perhaps it will be difficult for you to raise kids.’, ‘perhaps it will be very difficult for you to go out and participate in the community’” and what you end up doing is, you end up pushing people who are already marginalized, who are already come up with the ready… who don’t have the head start so called in life further away to the margin and that has to change. You know, you have to make the margin the new center if I may say so.

Debra: No. I agree. And I think that you windup really discouraging these young people and…

Gagan: Yes.

Debra: And even older people. I mean, it’s really… age is not part of it but you windup discouraging them so much that they don’t even… you know, they don’t even know how to tell you that they want to make a difference and so…

Gagan: Yes.

Debra: And I know… I will say to the audience, I’m definitely going to have Gagan back on. He’s going to come back on as a regular guest. He’s brilliant. You see how brilliant he is. We want to do some more social experiences in India, in Norway, in the United States…

Gagan: Yes.

Debra: But Gagan, what… I know we don’t have a lot of time left on the show today but, what would you recommend to parents and young people with disabilities to, you know, because all kind of barriers are put in their way, what is some advice that you have to them to find out who they really are. Because you’re 32 years old now and you had amazing parents and I know you lost your mom at a very early age at 21 and I… what would you recommend for them to do?

Gagan: I will say that I was really fortunate Debra and I consider myself as a child with serendipity and good fortune that I had such incredible parents. When I was 10, my parents had a choice to take me to a special needs education school or to say stick with my regular school and my mother was a force of nature and she said, “no. he’s going to study in a regular school and he’s not just going to study in the regular school, I will work with him. I’ll read out stuff for him. I will organize all the volunteers which he might need and I’ll make sure that he ends up getting very good grades.”

She never said that you cannot become a management consultant. She never said to me that you cannot do this. Too often, what I have understood from the youth stories from Oslo and New Delhi is that their parents have very very good intentions you know. They want to protect their children from harm, from danger, from pain, from unnecessary suffering and these are all noble desires and these can manifest in different forms. And what ends up often happening is that sometimes, youth or young children or young adults are too much protected by their parents. And then what happens is that these young children, they end up becoming this adolescent youth, they kind of see the world in a… through an over protected lens.

Debra: Right.

Gagan: So, one common theme which came across when I talked to the youth in Oslo and New Delhi and even in San Francisco a few weeks ago was when youth said to me that their parents give them the leeway. Told them that, “oh. You’re like a… you’re like…” quote and quote, I hate using this word but, “normal kid. You can do whatever you want to do. Oh. You want to… you want to go to school by yourself? Here’s a way, I’ll walk with you for the first trip or five times and then if you want to go by yourself, fine, go for it. And if you get lost, ask people around. If you get… if you find it difficult, if you fall down, then get up.” For instance.

I don’t want to… I don’t want to trivialize this and I don’t want to say it by any stretch of imagination that all parents should do that because I’m not a parent and in my case and the case which I’m representing right now

are the youth with disabilities and I’m from New Delhi perhaps might not be generalizable to all the parents and to all their young adults with disabilities but it is a ring of truth in this thing that one has to kind of let these children, let these young adults be themselves. Manifest their potentiality, their aspirations, their freedom, their capacities because if you over protect them, if parents, teachers, welfare state bureaucrats end up saying to these kids and young adults that life is going to be tough. You have… it’s tough for sighted people. It’s tough for people who do not have disability and for you, in particular, since you have a disability, it’s going to be even more tough. And what you end up doing is that you end up giving, creating this sense of fear, this sense of inferiority if I may say so. Young people… young adults end up internalizing this fear and then eventually they will end up just expecting low from themselves and nothing does… nothing can harm you more than having low self-esteem, low expectation from yourself.

Debra: Right. Exactly.

Gagan: Because the moment it gets internalize into you, doesn’t matter which policy, which law, what kind of support systems our country can bring in. If for instance I must say that Norway has one of the best welfare states in the world, the best social benefit system, the best social service system and I’m saying this and I’m comparing this to United States…

Debra: Yes.

Gagan: I know… I know how the SSI system is working. I know how stigmatizing it could be. I know the disability benefit system could kind of create these incentives for people who get back into the labor market or to get education in the United States. Norway, they’re very very enlightened. They are doing their level best to create a just and fair and inclusive society but at the same time, if you become too over protective, if you start questioning the intrinsic worth value of a child or student or adult with disability, then you start pushing them to the fringes. You start making them down their capabilities and that’s not a good thing.

Debra: I agree too.

Gagan: We have to transcend that as a community.

Debra: I agree. I agree. I know that we’re out of time and we definitely have Gagan to come back. He’s going to come back on the show and we’re going to share some of his research with you as well. But, Gagan, tell the viewers how they can contact you. I know you’re on Facebook and I believe you’re on LinkedIn.

Gagan: Yes. I think the best way to contact me is through my email address. Like that’s my first name, gagan.chhabra@oslomet.no. I can put that in the comment field for anybody who wants to contact me. I’m based in Berkeley United States for the next six months until the end of February. I’ll post my US phone number there. If people want to have a coffee with me, have a lunch with me, I will be extremely delighted.

I’ll be traveling to the East Coast. Professor Fletcher Blank has been very kind from [Indiscernible 0:44:22.1] university want me to present my work there. Professor Barry Coburn from the institute of disability and public policy would be there in Washington DC, that’s where I’ll be presenting my work in the early part of November. I’ll be heading to Harvard University as well for research visit perhaps otherwise to attend some conferences.

So, I’ll be on the East Coast on the first week of November. If you happen to be around in that state, I’d love to meet people, expand my horizon and I’m here to learn from experiences of people with disabilities and corporate leaders, market influencers like you Debra because I think it has to be a multi proud approach.

Debra: I agree.

Gagan: We cannot just focus only on people with disabilities to advocate for their rights. We have to focus on people like you who are kind of this bridge between the disabled community as well as the corporate America or the corporate world if I may say so.

Debra: Sure.

Gagan: So, let us have an open dialogue. Let us sit together, grab a coffee, lunch and talk about these issues and I want to learn more. Expand my horizon.

Debra: I agree. This is why I had him on guys. So, thank you Gagan. I want to do a shout out for my producer Doug Foresta. For Janette who’s doing a wonderful job today with closed captioning and Janette’s with Archive Captioning so that we can make sure the show is fully accessible. And thank you everybody for joining us today. Thank you Gagan.

Gagan: Thank you Debra. Thank you Doug and thank you Janette.

Male Speaker: You’ve been listening to Human Potential at Work with Debra Ruh. To learn more about Debra and how she can help your organization, visit ruhglobal.com. If you’ve enjoyed today’s episode and you want to make sure that you don’t miss any future episodes, go to iTunes and subscribe to the podcast Human Potential at Work. Thanks so much for listening and we’ll be back next week with the new episode.