thatwoman.files.wordpress.com€¦ · Web view1074 Responses to “LCS Lounge” on 31 Aug 2007 at 6:03 pm 1. word of mouth » A Little Place to Call Your Own. said … […] LCS

1074 Responses to “LCS Lounge”

1. on 31 Aug 2007 at 6:03 pm 1.word of mouth » A Little Place to Call Your Own said …

[…] LCS Lounge […]

2. on 31 Aug 2007 at 6:11 pm 2.Loraine Ritchey said …

Welcome to the Lounge……Loraine

3. on 31 Aug 2007 at 6:19 pm 3.Betty said …

I would like to sincerely thank Scott and all of the authors/staff on this website for allowing us, the teachers, to have a forum in which to discuss all things having to do with Lorain City Schools. You are all very special people. You provided many people with a place to vent, discuss, and learn things we didn’t know before. You all ROCK!!!

4. on 31 Aug 2007 at 6:19 pm 4.Kelly Boyer Sagert said …

Feel free to decorate this lounge however you’d like . . .

5. on 31 Aug 2007 at 7:35 pm 5.Muley said …

……Betty, We are “ALL” special people, we are Lorain, Ohio.

6. on 31 Aug 2007 at 8:38 pm 6.Frustrated said …

Words can’t thank you enough for letting us communicate this summer. This has been our lifeline and helped us share our frustrations and rejoice when some of our friends got called back. We hope to hear more names inthe next week. Many, many thanks for your support and continued support. You are appreciated.Where ever I go people comment about the WOM. It has reached more people than we’ll ever know.

7. on 31 Aug 2007 at 8:52 pm 7.KR said …

Thank you for letting us continue to use the WOM to keep up with all of our co-workers and everybody else that has an interest in LCS.

To all the RIFFERS- from a former RIFFER- here’s hoping next week brings back many of you.

As my good buddy said tonight- over Chinese food and chocolate sundaes- “once a riffer, always a riffer.” Signing off- Ex Riffer- 88

8. on 31 Aug 2007 at 9:52 pm 8.Henery said …

Can we smoke in ‘ere?

9. on 31 Aug 2007 at 11:06 pm 9.Roman said …

I would like a double tall, non-fat, light whip, extra vanilla latte in a double cup - pronto.

10. on 31 Aug 2007 at 11:23 pm 10.Mom of a Saint said …

I actually saw a WOM bumber sticker last week. I just smiled.

11. on 01 Sep 2007 at 12:14 am 11.Henery said …

They are starting to pop up on the windows and doors of downtown businesses, too!

12. on 01 Sep 2007 at 8:31 am 12.Ruffled and Baffled said …

I got a newbie to the WOM last night! She couldn’t stop and was having a blast.

13. on 01 Sep 2007 at 9:10 am 13.Loraine Ritchey said …

I am as you are all aware a surface dweller in all this and I am just wondering …is the LEA website the only resource you all have for getting your infomation or do you also have other options ……it does on the face of it seem to be lacking in infomation …..can you access other pages/ section as union members that give you more difinitive information.just curious Loraine

14. on 01 Sep 2007 at 9:18 am 14.Frustrated said …

Loraine- I am LOL at your question about getting info. from our union. You are asking and wondering the same question that we have been asking ALL summer. That is my number 1 beef with the LEA- lack of info. and communication. I know they are busy, but there should be a better way. FEMA in the LEA.

15. on 01 Sep 2007 at 9:23 am 15.A Survivor said …

The LEA only posts information that is for sure. They don’t write about what they are working on. You have to call or email Christine or other officers for your specific concerns. It’s not that difficult.


Thanks I can see they would only post substantiated information but surely there is “more” substantiated information than what is posted….approved minutes of meetings for instance …. break downs of figures per schools etc. rather than just an overview and paraphrasing… just thinking out loud Loraine

17. on 01 Sep 2007 at 9:38 am 17.Devastated said …

Survivor: Perhaps you are in the special circle of people they return phone calls to. I have heard of many people calling, leaving messages, and NO ONE ever returning their call, or returning the call weeks later. It can be difficult.

Loraine, we have one other source of info.. The WOM… That is it.

Building Reps are not even as informed as they used to be. I have been a building rep in the past, and I know the chain of command was quite different. Building Reps knew a lot and it was easy then to ask your building rep, but from what I hear, building reps know very ittle.

18. on 01 Sep 2007 at 3:51 pm 18.Ruffled and Baffled said …

be careful Loraine, you’ll be on their list. The general membership meeting was opened by blasting the WOM.

19. on 01 Sep 2007 at 4:30 pm 19.Loraine Ritchey said …

Ruffled : Hey it wouldn’t be the first time I was on a “list” in fact I make lists more than anyone I know they had just better make sure they don’t make MY list Ahhhhhh why are they upset with WoM….. .hm let me guess because for once in this town there is a place for freedom of discussion….unedited and somewhat controversial…. where the “may not agree or like what you say …. but will defend your right to say it !!!” is the creed….. some people get a little worried when that happens……Loraine

20. on 01 Sep 2007 at 5:20 pm 20.jennifer said …

Ruffled…I had heard that. I know there were some teachers who did not feel that was at all appropriate not to mention professional. I think there were a lot of people in the room looking around wondering “What in the heck is wom” Bet they found out quick and went home to begin reading. That would make 20++++ readers.

21. on 01 Sep 2007 at 5:36 pm 21.Devastated said …

I find it fascinating that Christine is so interested in the WOM…

Ruffled, when you get a chance, give me a call later. I want to run something by you. Thanks..

22. on 01 Sep 2007 at 6:05 pm 22.20/20 vision said …

Special BOE meeting Tuesday at 6:00 p.m. room 33 Charleston.

23. on 01 Sep 2007 at 6:26 pm 23.Froggy's Mom said …

Does anyone know what the BOE meting is about????


How did you find out about the meeting?

25. on 01 Sep 2007 at 7:02 pm 25.scott bakalar said …

You all are on top of things here. I got this from Jim Smith, and was going to run it as an article on Sunday, still might though for the non-lounge lizards…

special school board meeting to be held on September 4th at 6:00 pm in Room 33 at Charleston. The purpose of the meeting is to conduct interviews for a new construction manager for the remainder of the building project. The agreement with the original manager was terminated.

The board will make recommendations to the Ohio Facilities Commission and the commission will make the final decision. No other business is scheduled to take place.

Also, on September 6th at 5:00 pm the School Bond Oversite Committee will meet in Room 33 to receive updates on the building project and what is happening with the local funds tied to the project. It is open to the public.

As you were…


How ironic….no meeting that will give the public an open mike.

27. on 01 Sep 2007 at 7:11 pm 27.tired and sad said …

Nothing to discuss issues or recommendations regarding the current fiasco at all LCS buildings.


Hmmm. thought maybe it could have been about call backs.. guess not… yet another roller coaster ride…


There is sooooo much to discuss it is not even funny


It really isn’t funny at all.. It is all quite sad… How are you hanging in there Froggy’s mom????


Devastated- Just waiting until Wednesday. Did you have a good day with the other fellow riffers? I am so mad. We did not go to the zoo Thursday due to a flat tire!


We did have a nice time.That is a bummer about your tire.. I am sorry to hear that… It was a perfect day to be outside…


It’s Labor Day Weekend with wonderful weather upon us, though I like it closer to 90…let’s enjoy….before we head back to the labor at hand at LCS. Today I relaxed by the pool. At about 4:00 I cracked open my first beer. Enjoying my family and this time away from the shear madness that has been handed to us. Tomorrow I plan to get up early and again grab a book and head out to the backyard pool again. Maybe tomorrow we’ll BBQ instead of the pizza that’s on its way. Monday we will again take advantage of the pool before the snow flies. Anyone that needs a getaway more often than not, consider a pool. Friends and family tend to gather there ecspecially when we get into the 90’s. You don’t have to leave home. Pizza or burgers on the grill will suffice. There is no better fun for the kiddies and adults alike. Without it I don’t know what I’d do with my kids all summer. RELAX AND ENJOY WHAT YOU HAVE AND NOT WHAT YOU DON’T, just for this weekend.


Devastated- it wasn’t my tire. it was my friend’s who was heading to my house. My poor daughter had to wait after I promised her. Anyway… I hope to hear a call this week and know that you receive one too.


Thanks Froggy’s mom.. I really appreciate that.. You will get the call before me, so give me a heads up, please. Have a great Labor Day weekend.


Right back at you!

37. on 01 Sep 2007 at 10:17 pm 37.Roman said …

Hey is there a cover charge tonight?

38. on 02 Sep 2007 at 8:37 am 38.Totally Disgusted said …

Reading the Morning Journal sure would make ME want to put my kids in charter schools. Raul Ramos says LCS offer more options–he must be blind to the cuts. On the other hand, the elem Charters offer music, gym, art and Spanish. They also require each child to do 1/2 hr of work on the computer. They DO NOT put up with bullying, and Character Education is not only taught, but role played. If a kid can’t cope, they are sent back to the public school or put in an alternative Charter Sch.

Sounds pretty darn good to me.

Now HOW are LCS supposed to compete with that?


Ramos said he thinks the public school system has to listen to parents and come up with solutions for those who are not doing well.

Can you believe this was a quote in today’s journal? Maybe that’s what he has been doing all summer-thinking about whether he should listen.


Mr.”you ain’t my daddy” suggests we should listen??? These people are hilarious..

In all seriousness, I have known many families who have tried charter schools. Most have not been happy at all, and returned to LCS. A few have stayed, but time will tell.

Right now, it may look like a great option, and right now, it MAY be, but once we get back on track, and I have faith we will, The pendulum will swing again. I have faith.

I did laugh really hard when I read all of Ramos’s statements. Especially the one about how he doesn’t feel that charter schools have the staffing to have things or something… Hello, we don’t have staff..

I also threw up in my mouth when I saw Dee’s picture.


Hey, Mr. Ramos, listen to this:

DO NOT SPEND OUR MONEY LIKE A DRUNKEN SAILORS ON HIGH SALARIES FOR MORE THAN NEDDED DIRECTORS AND ADMINISTRATORS AT CHARLESTON! GOT IT??? IT WAS AT O*U*R EXPENSE AND THE K*I*D*S EXPENSE!!!


Ruffled, you are up early this morning. I am impressed.. hahahahahahah


I’m always up early-well by 8 anyway. Going to Licha’s for some juevos ala americana!!!!

44. on 02 Sep 2007 at 10:26 am 44.Little Dudz said …

good morning everyone! I have got read the journal today, we don’t get it, but apparantly this one is funny! i’ll comment on it later:)


Little Dudz, Just read it on line.. Not worth the money to purchase… Just more of the same.


Oh!!! I just read it on line. How hilarious!!! Last time I checked only two elementary schools in Lorain offer Physical Education-Irving and Larkmoor. Last year all of the elementary schools offered it, I believe that would be HUGE program cut. That is why we decided to send our kindergarten to 1/2 school at Amherst instead of full day at Lakeview (of course the cut of the montessori program was also the other factor-oops another cut!!!) Has he done his research on what has happened to LCS? The classes are packed, no art/gym/music at every building, and we don’t have elementary counselors!!! WHAT THE H*** Get a CLUE RAMOS! Also, the Lorain community only allows 20 kids in a room, not 28-30!!! Seriously, this guy is wacked!! Oh-Also, three years ago Lakeview had a whole bunch of families take off to the Arts Academy, needless to say the following year most were back to Lakeview, Now those same families left again for open enrollment to Clearview or to the Gifted Academy, it would be interesting to see if they come back again next year. LCS has not made it very appealing so far!!!

47. on 02 Sep 2007 at 10:42 am 47.Stephanie said …

Jeanine Donaldson’s quote about OSU games yesterday was as funny as Raul’s. Did anyone else catch it?

“I don’t understand, frankly, with the money taxpayers pay for state institutions like OSU, the need to for having a special network to broadcast the games,” she said. “It feels like we’re paying twice.”

The fact that she is complaining about taxpayers not getting what they paid for was really ironic to me.


These people have just proven that they need to become more educated on what is going on in the very school district they are in charge of!! Why is it that myself, a lowly rif’d teacher knows much more than they do!!! I should apply for a supervisor position above them to help them out apparantly!!!!!!

49. on 02 Sep 2007 at 10:57 am 49.Stephanie said …

Dee’s article today was also disturbing. For the last couple of months she has been saying they didn’t know we were in such financial difficulty from charter schools. In todays Morning Journal, not only was she aware, she was trying to offer programs to keep the kids here. What a laugh! She cut back on all the electives and the Vocational program. Way to keep kids here.

50. on 02 Sep 2007 at 11:25 am 50.More dismayed than ever said …

Did anyone else notice the cost to go to the Charter schools? They specifically say it’s not a fee to attend, but a fee for materials. They ranged anywhere from $250.00 - $500.00 and public schools can’t even ask for money for workbooks these days. If you looked at how they did on the testing, with the exception of the gifted that was “excellent”, and I think the arts academy that was “effective”, all the others were either continuous progress, academic watch, academic emergency, or not rated. How is that any different or better than LCS??? The only thing that makes it any different is the fact that students who don’t show respect and responsibility are sent back to us, who have to deal with that on top of the 32-38 people who are now in our primary grades. If they don’t do something about the class sizes and the lack of support staff for the principals, I fear for the health and sanity of the teachers as well as the principals. The quotes from board members were ridiculous! (Sorry to ramble, but that article just made me a tad anxious.) Headed off to church to gain some peace and then came home and got online to see comments on the wom. Looks like others had the same reaction I did.)


The lies these people tell are amazing. I cannot believe they lie so much that they do not even realize they are lying anymore… How sad, really.

I, too, noticed that Dee claims she tried to hold meetings to figure out how not to lose children to charter schools, but didnt’ know there was a problem.. What a hoot…

Is it any wonder we are in this mess???

52. on 02 Sep 2007 at 12:02 pm 52.Brian said …

I have a somewhat serious question. If I am understanding what I read correctly, Little Dutz is a RIF’ed employee of the district that is sending her child to another district. This sends a very mixed message to me that as a parent I should not trust our school system because someone who is probably much more informed as to what is going on in the district has lost faith in the system he/ she wants to return to.

Sorta is like me wanting to work for Home Depot and shopping at Lowes instead.


You would be surprised at the # of employees who choose other districts than LCS.

54. on 02 Sep 2007 at 12:15 pm 54.Little Dudz said …

Actually, we live in the Amherst school district, (built our house before we were hired by Lorain) but sent our daughter to Lakeview because of the superb montessorri program that I was a part of. They got rid of the montessorri program and gym/music. My husband is a gym teacher that was cut. It would be like working at home depot and being in charge of designing kitchens, then they got rid of the kitchen section, so you had to go else where to get your kitchen re-done. Of course you would be out of a job, so I suppose you wouldn’t have money to do your kitchen, but anyways. . (i suppose, Sorry Brian, I am not too good with analogies, but I think that works?)


Well Brian except that if you don’t receive the quality of goods at Home depot you can return them for a refund….. how can you do that with a childs education? And lets face it if we put this country and the goods supplied by our own manufactures first would we have all the oversees goods??????….checked out Home Depot and Lowes lately see where they are purchasing….. hardly anything American made……? My husband goes out of his way to try and purchase goods made here….and it ain’t easy….but when it comes to your family and your children they have to come before anything else imho and if I worked for a car company and I knew the vehicle wasn’t up to par would I put my child in that seat or in a different model???Loraine


And even though I no longer work in Lorain City Schools, I am still pushing to get back Montessorri because the test scores show it WORKS!!!!! It was the only program around here, the next closest one is Westlake, so I feel it is an important program to keep, that is why I still care about what happens to LCS. Not that I necessarily want to work for them anymore with the disrespect that is going on for teachers, nurses, custodians (all staff

really), but I would love for them to bring back a program that worked. That is just my opinion, so I hope I don’t offend anyone.


Oh Loraine, my husband tries hard to buy American made products too, in fact we wanted to buy a mini-van, the Honda is ranked number for safety, but he won’t buy that one, he will only buy the Chrysler or Ford because the are American, of course right now we don’t have enough money, so we will be cramming our three carseats in the back of our American made Sebring. Your point is excellent!


Good afternoon to all! I have yet to read the aticle in the Journal, it is still on my kitchen table. I do not subscribe but saw the headlines while I was out this a.m. and purchased one.

For those on here who do not know me, I have posted prior that I have a son at LAK and a daughter in a Charter School. She attends the Lorain Academy for Gifted. At the end of last year, I had comtemplated putting her back into LCS. Not because I was unhappy with her school, she is very athletic and I wanted to see her eventually get the chance to play sports. That is something that the Charter Schools are lacking right now. I changed my mind well before the chaos began, thank god.She is in 4th grade, 15 students in her class. She has gym, music, art, computer lab and Spanish. She also gets a full recess, which is so important so these children can unwind a little so they are more attentive in the classroom. Her day starts at 8:15 and goes to 3:00. Yes it is true that I pay $250 for a material fee for her. On her 3rd grade Reading Achievement test she scored a 442 while the state average is 406 and the district average is 392.What I would like to ask the Board is WHY should I put her back into LCS?Please understand that I have supported LCS 100% and have been to many Board Meetings. I still have a son who will be there for 2 more years, so I continue to stay active and informed. When he graduates, I don’t know how I will feel. I am a LCS graduate as are my 3 sisters. Lorain is home…but I really don’t know for how long.

59. on 02 Sep 2007 at 1:03 pm 59.PollyAnna said …

Little Dudz - My oldest did not do well with Montessori. She needs order, structure, direction, a “sit down finish hand this in here is your grade write this down” type of set up. My youngest would flourish! Right now, I am very concerned with the number of students in classes and the lack of extras such as gym, art, and etc.

Do you think teachers would be willing to do away with the pay increase if it means fixing the situation? Only if it was done with adminstration sacrifices too? Do you think this is possible? I am serious. I am not thinking of my job. I am too far down this list;

probably a mute point. I am thinking about all staff and the gaps in staffing and programs that currently exists.

I guess my point is that if everyone (especially at the top) made sacrifices, then things could get better. Right now, the teachers are sacrificing. The teachers, custodians, nurses, paraprofessionals, principals, parents, students. Are the people in adminsitration making sacrifices? If so, how…what? That was my point on the hospital question a few days ago. No one is better than the other. I equated the superiority complex of some surgeons to that of Charleston Administration. We all need to work together. The superintendent is no better than the teacher in regards to needing to make sacrifices. I am pretty sure that we all (all those who hold a stake in this community) work just as hard as the other.


I know many teachers who would freeze the raises for A few years. Did we not do that before as well?


I think so.

62. on 02 Sep 2007 at 1:36 pm 62.sikuvit said …

I agree with you Froggy’s Mom! How are you this morning? I thought of you often this week!

I would’ve totally voted for a pay freeze so teachers and all other staff of LCS would not be RIF’ed..it was never an option.

And on the point of the Non-American vs. American made cars…has anyone ever checked under the hood and realized how many parts of their American Made car comes from “other” countries? And My non-american made car was 95% assembled in the USA? Food for thought..


sikuvit….I figured you were busy this week so I did not call. I’ll call you later after froggy goes to bed. I am sure you had a good week. I just keep thinking…an extra week of vacation.


You are correct!! I think your vacation ends REAL SOON! But that is a good thing. I’m sure you had a nice time laying by the pool sipping ice-cold drinks, etc…


Yup Ford is all over the place from France, Mexico and Germany etc. 4 of the 5 engines are in Dagenham Essex England ….as are other manufactures thats why he purchased a jeep I have a Gm ( which is now 13 years old) and Ford ( I have to say that fusion is a great little car) ….as I said there is such a problem purchasing American made goods ( totally ) even shrimp are coming from China…….Medical Insurance like it or not plays a big factor as the companies don’t have to support the healthcare for their employees….Loraine

66. on 02 Sep 2007 at 2:19 pm 66.Totally Disgusted said …

And while we are on the subject of America, could the people coming to live in America PLEASE learn to speak the language? It is imperative we all assimilate as one and one language. I am tired of going to the ATM and being asked English or Espanol? I like most hispanics, just expect the parents to start stepping up to the plate with English. We could sure save a bundle if we did not need those special classes. Parents know they can come here and get it all taken care of. Nt much incentive for them to learn English.

Learn it like our forefathers!

67. on 02 Sep 2007 at 3:37 pm 67.TwoFaced said …

I just read the mj articles. How can Ramos say that we have more options! He must have fell and hit his head and cannot remember anything that has happened in the last 4 months!He says he hasn’t been in a charter school recently to see what it is offering.What is that all about? Why would he need to be in a school to see how it is run? He is on “the board” running the lcs and doesn’t even know what is going on in his own buildings? WAIT A MINUTE! Could that be his problem? Has anyone actually seen him in a school building, asking how thing are, what is needed, etc? Does anyone who is in charge ask the ones in the buildings these questions and more? NO, NO, NO!!!!!!!As for Dr Dee, she must have fallen for the second time and regained her memory! Now she says that when she first arrived six years ago she anticipated the charter school movement would grow large! I can’t take it anymore! Dr Dee is now gone and going back to Columbus without a care never to worry about Lorain again. The “board” is all smiles with the attitude that everything is running smoothly and they can keep making decisions, tra, la, la, la, la……….. And those in the buildings are trying to keep things going for the students that are left only to keep watching more and more leave. They are now leaving in packs and due only to the poor decisions that have been made by TPTB!!!!!! It could have been stopped before this big lapse of incompetance had not have happened.I must stop for a while to cool off. I am trying to keep my temper to a minimum!!!!

68. on 02 Sep 2007 at 3:40 pm 68.TwoFaced said …

One more thing, I was talking to a parent of a senior at LSV and she said that they are asking a lot of seniors to drop out of the electives that they do not need to graduate and

then they can go home early. Why, because the incoming freshmen do not have any classes available for them and they want the freshmen to go into these class rooms! Just ask any of them about all of the options they have!


I tried to email a part of my post to the supe and it didn’t go. Isn’t the email [email protected] ?

Here is what I wanted to send:

If everyone (especially at the top) made sacrifices, then things could get better. Right now, the teachers are sacrificing. The teachers, custodians, nurses, paraprofessionals, principals, parents, students. Are the people in adminsitration making sacrifices? If so, how……what? No one is better than the other.No one job is superior to the other. We all need to work together. The superintendent is no better than the teacher in regards to needing to make sacrifices (HINT: $15,000). I am pretty sure that we all (all those who hold a stake in this community) work just as hard as the other.


looks like you may have mistyped lorain.org that may help

71. on 02 Sep 2007 at 6:24 pm 71.20/20 vision said …

Her e-mail address is [email protected]

72. on 02 Sep 2007 at 6:35 pm 72.Stephanie said …

Pollyanna,

[email protected]

I don’t know why hers is different. I didn’t get a response to an email I sent.


OOOOPS need to refresh more often

74. on 02 Sep 2007 at 8:28 pm 74.my head may explode said …

After this morning’s article in the mj. I don’t think I can watch this train wreck any longer. IF TPTB were spending the money properly instead of inflating administrators pockets we would not be here today. Also the lawyers they had on retainer..out of this world. I know they spent bookoos of $ to get the test scores up….but at what cost. DM can now add that to her resume as she rode off on her broom. You do not hire a super for

$180,000 plus in the financial situation we are in. There were plenty of home grown candidates that would do it for the right reasons. I could go on and on. DM should have been ousted years ago. THE BOE and her are solely responsible for this mess. They can’t blame the previous treasurer…they were his bosses. As for the charter schools, you can’t blame them. To this community it looks a lot better over there right now. I’m not saying it is, I have no knowledge of the charters. Please don’t mention the word levy…….the citizens of Lorain will laugh at that word.

75. on 02 Sep 2007 at 8:38 pm 75.teachme30 said …

#52Brian,You questioned Little Dutz as to why she did not have her children in LCS. I too am a teacher of Lorain and send my children to Amherst. Five years ago, One year after the arrival of the Great DR. Morgan, I had moved and open-enrolled my children in Lorain City Schools because I beleived in what I did and everyone around me. I beleived that my children would get the best of education with the most realistic and diverse atmosphere . I was proud to say that I brought my children to Lorain form the Famous and Excellent Amherst.(sarcasm) When I went to the office to exit my children from Amherst schools they were smug and said you are kidding and I proudly said ” I think my children will get the BEST from Lorain City Schools. Well, I did have my children in and gave this system $5500 per head. Then the great reign of Dr. Morgan hit home. My child, who at the time was in 2nd grade was not permitted to stay in school before and after school with me. Now isn’t that a friendly way to treat your teachers. I bring my children to school with me but they are not permitted to be in the building while I am on the clock. I joined a task force to try to solve the problem that was effecting numerous teachers. to no avail, I had to have my daughter drivin around after school by a parent until I was off the clock. I did that for 6months, Jan-June. Meanwhile, My son, who was in a wonderful advanced program in 7th grade at Lorain Middle school was challenged by a group of teachers that were wonderful.We could not have been happier with the education he was receiving as well as the experiences. Then came 8th grade. The whole program went up in smoke. He sat and played games all day and recieved all A’s. He never had homework and told me that the students he was with were struggling with the basics. Again, WE met as a family with the big dogs at charleston…To no avail we were told this was they way it would be. The wonderful program was now watered down with students that should not have been there. The wonderful advanced program for the good students was ripped apart. My husband and I were graduates of Lorain City Schools. We dreamed of our children graduating from the same system. We struggled with moving them to Amherst. In the end, I felt my system let me down and they pushed my children out. So, Brian there is much history with the employess and the hurt that they have endured. It is a great thing that every story gets to be heard and the public knows what a bad way the schools have been in for the past 6 years. When this system starts to treat its employess with honor and respect they deserve, things may change. People may bring their children back. It is too late for my children but others may return.

76. on 02 Sep 2007 at 9:18 pm 76.Sandra said …

You know charter schools are just a part of this problem and not what has caused this whole debacle. This BOE has been warned for years about the amount of administrators and their perks. In 1998 when LCS was audited by the state, not one recommendation was followed.They chose to waste money. How many Tuesdays did teachers HAVE to stay 2 hours for professional development and that development was working in your classroom. This district did not care about their financial responsibilites, just POWER.

77. on 02 Sep 2007 at 9:55 pm 77.Sandra said …

Found the PDK audit on LCS website-quite interesting reading. For surface dwellers: PDK is a company Dee hired to go over our district. The PDK audit on the website is from 2001 and here is just a little of what the audit said about the BOE (lmao):

“The role of board is setting policies. I am not real familiar with them. I should be, but I am not.”

“We should be foward thinkers…the superintendent, treasurer, and Board should be looking ahead. I don’t see us doing that.”

“We started going through the policy manual last year, but have not gotten through the first section.”

“We’ve not done a good job in monitoring policy. We have been too busy putting out fires…”

These are just a few of the things LCS BOE told auditors. Go to LCS website for more. Unbelievable.


Yea, I know about the whole car thing, apparantly Honda Odessys (sp) are made in Maine or something like that, or parts, or something, but my hubby is all into re-building cars and he believes that American cars are easier for him to fix. I don’t know ANYTHING about cars, so more power to him I guess.I just don’t know much about business and how profit works for the worker, etc. but I guess I would like to learn more so I could actually be knowledgable and support this community, state, and country.Yes, and as for the auditor thing, I am laughing because they knew there were problems then, but nobody fixed them, AMAZING!!!!!! I just don’t get it. There are soooo many “fires” now in the district that I don’t think all the fireman in the world would be able to get them out! I just pray that things get better for the sake of this community. The children will be the tax paying citizens someday, and if they don’t get a good base now, we will ALL pay in the future!!!!!!Time to go to bed for another sleepless night.


Hey Devastated… how about organizing a T.S. party with fellow riffers and escapees. That would be a blast!!!!!!

80. on 02 Sep 2007 at 11:39 pm 80.Disbelief said …

Rumor has it that Dean is out by Wednesday!!!


Froggy, we will talk soon.. Interesting Idea… I have another idea for you too.. we shall talk tomorrow or Tuesday..

i also heard the rumor about Dean, wonder if it is true???

82. on 03 Sep 2007 at 1:18 am 82.Froggy's Mom said …

devastated…call me tomorrow when you get a chance.


I doubt Dean will live on unemployment. I wonder where he will go to get the kind of salary Dee foolishly paid him? I hope that pompous little a** suffers too. I am so bad.


Can anyone confirm the dean rumor???? Just curious???


All I ccan confirm is that the “rumor” has reached us here at WoM ….further than that I cannot say Loraine


I am not a fan of anyone losing their job… However, he has been especially rude, unfeeling and pompous about the loss of jobs to the teachers and other LCS staff….. I am just curious if it is true.. We have heard this rumor before..

87. on 03 Sep 2007 at 11:01 am 87.Veteran Teacher said …

I had heard last week that Dean would be gone after Labor Day.

I, for one, am glad they are cleaning house at Charleston. It is about time. NOw there are only a few more there that need to be gone. I hope Dr. A. sees the need to do so. Then I will be a believer in her sincerety.

#75…teach me…I so remember those days when Dee made it impossible for teachers to KEEP thier own children in LCS. How sad. Not only did the district loose wonderful students, but also lots of $. I do not blame those teachers a bit for putting thier children in their home schools.

You are right…there is soooo much the public does not know that we have endured for so long and that is why these feelings run deep with us. AND YOU ARE ALSO RIGHT about the fact that the administration needs to treat its employees with dignity and respect.

#77…Sandra…good work to bring this audit to light. As employees, we all knew the major problem was that the Board did not know what was going on. Did they focus on that when they were trying to ‘RIGHT’ things? NO.

#78…Little Dudz…I would love to buy American cars again…however, here is my experience and delemma…I had a brand new Ford and I was constantly in the shop with it being recalled or getting it fixed…not to mention the fact that I was treated like dirt when I went into their customer service dept. I have since found that my current car, although it is not termed ‘American’ is made mostly here in America…knock on wood, has NOT caused me one iota of trouble and is going on 5 years now. Also, the service and sales people treat me wonderfully and that is what I want as a customer…so…I put my money where I am treated royally rather than s**** and where I don’t have to spend weeks of my time in the repair shop. When ‘American’ can give me that…then I will think about switching. But I am VERY happy with my decision and I could care less what others think.

It is funny…I have found that discussions about car buying can be almost as heated as what party (democrat/republican) one belongs to.


Yea, luckily we never have to deal with the shop thing since my hubby can pretty much fix anything. He just thinks “foreign” cars are much more complicated. I don’t know anything about cars, so I just drive. I lived overseas as a kid, (Germany and Hong Kong) so I really could care less either way, whatever is more reliable and cheaper works for me:) Also, I would think a pay freeze would be a nice idea, the 3% raise thing sure seemed rather “fishy” to me, but hey, I am riff’d so I guess what I think wouldn’t matter anyways.


I had another question that I hope someone can answer. Is a RIFF’ed teacher still a voting member of the LEA? I would assume that the dues is paid yearly but what is a teacher to do if they no longer have a job and the “union dues” comes due?

I would think shelving out close to a thousand dollars all at once would be difficult for anyone, especially if there is no income. The reason why I am asking this question is because I worry that the union might possibly “forget about them” when the true financial outlook for our school district comes out later this year.

My argument to continue supporting the lower seniority teachers is that I do not believe that they were given the option to belong or exclude themselves from paying a dues and I feel if someone pays into something they should get something in return.


Another way of looking at it is how long does one have to support something to be considered to have paid their dues on a non financial viewpoint?


That is a very good question. Many of us have been paying union dues for up to 7 years or more!, which is a lot of money. Now, I never really needed the help of the union, however now I do. (unless I get a job in another district) I think I need to look into this. Thank you VERY Much!!!

92. on 03 Sep 2007 at 5:38 pm 92.Do U C What I C? said …

Oh so much to weigh in on!!!

RE: having to view Dee’s picture, brought indigesstion to me also, Devastated (#40).

Many of us thought she bore an uncanny resemblance to “Cruella DeVille” (an evil cartoonish character in 101 Dalmations)…maybe it was her wig … but actually it was our sensing her evil intentions, to destroy LCS.

I also enjoyed L.M.A.O. this AM at Dee’s remarks!!! She certainly revealed her deceptions, as well as that of the BOE, in attempting to blame Mr. Estle.I HOPE ALL MJ READERS NOTED THAT SHE ADMITTED TO HAVING KNOWN THE IMPACT OF CHARTER SCHOOLS, AND THAT SHE ACTUALLY ADDRESSED THIS WITH ADMINISTRATIVE STAFF, PRESENTATIONS, ETC.

SO FANCY THAT!!! JIM ESTLE DID NOT KEEP HER IN THE DARK, & DID NOT OVERLOOK THE IMPACT OF CHARTER SCHOOLS…H-M-M-M Are you listening young Ryan G? Do you see the moral character exhibited by Dee & cronies, and possibly those who have hired you? Beware.

AND THE MJ REPORTER WAS SO CLOSE TO ASKING THE RIGHT QUESTIONS…BUT STOPPED BEFORE ASKING, “So you DID know about the impact of the charter schools! WHY HAVE YOU BEEN BLAMING THE FORMER TREASURER? WHY DID YOU CUT THE VERY OFFERINGS THAT WOULD

DRAW THE FAMILIES TO THE DISTRICT (at the elementary level: Great Lakes Science Center field trips, Accelerated Reader, Accelerated Math, and now the pre-school programs, the fine arts & P.E.? At the secondary level so many advanced classes/programs), THE M.J. REPORTER SHOULD HAVE ASKED THESE & MANY MORE IN DEPTH QUESTIONS, BUT JOHN COLE HAS BEEN, shall we say “in bed with” the LCS administration, and therefore has contributed to this massive destruction.

YES, YES, YES, PollyAnna! I AGREE WITH YOUR SUGGESTION IN POST #59 Had the discussion (which never actually WAS a discussion) at the time of voting on the proposed contract, included “do you want a 0%-3%-3%/3% salary grid, but lose 1/3 of your colleagues; OR NO RAISE, BUT RETAIN MOST OF YOUR COLLEAGUES…THE LATTER WOULD HAVE HAD MY SUPPORT! But our membership was never informed of the expected fall-out, or offered choices to consider.

Even now, I believe many teachers would be willing to do away with the pay increase if it means fixing the situation.

BUT CONSIDERING THE DESTRUCTION CAUSED BY DEE MORGAN’S REIGN, I also believe the willingness to sacrifice anticipated pay increases (in addition to all else that has been sacrificed) would be ONLY IF IT WERE ACCOMPANIED BY SERIOUS SACRIFICES ON THE PART OF ADMINISTRATIVE PEOPLE, and I’m NOT speaking of the clerical people who happened to work in the same building with administrators!!!

Poor Dr. Atkinson, here’s what you’ve been handed. Dee step-by-step dismantled a functional school system, which was always seeking to improve, and left it in total shambles in her wake.

You’d think this would be illegal!


Brian, you bring up very good points of the union, but they have already in action stated how they feel about the riffed people.At the general membership meeting we were asked to come, because it would be beneficial. This is how we were welcomed by our union: sign in place-no riffed people were listed, packets-oh riffed don’t get one.And the union said they aren’t going to update the website-too much gets out.At the same meeting teachers were told not to take new supplementals to pad their pockets because that is taking a union person’s job. This same union last week made a deal with administration to give supplementals for bus duty and comp time or flex time to teachers who do breakfast.So yes Brian-everyone is in it for the money.


My question in #89 wasn’t a money question at all but a question of belonging to the brotherhood or sisterhood of a particular organization. I was in the service and spent time with United Nations forever and always being able to claim I was a part of them because “I PAID MY DUES”.

I can also state that with my collective 23 years or better of various construction projects, education, and experience that I have “PAID MY DUES”.

Now, if I not only gave monies but supported the LEA for say 2 years, have I paid my dues as far as getting protected? What if I was a teacher for 6 years? 10? 20 or is it 30?

Another way of looking at this is that, is it the workers job to protect the union or the other way around?

To add a little more weight to the question that I have asked, think about this. When does a loyal union teacher become a non union teacher? I understand if they take a teaching position within a no union organization but that I think that is never the plan. To be a Lorain teacher one must be a member of the LEA correct?

I know of many steel workers and railroad workers that were laid of for many years that came back to work for those industries. Do you think that they just sat around for a decade doing nothing?

95. on 03 Sep 2007 at 8:59 pm 95.Kyle Herndon Gaskell said …

I was told upon being hired that I either HAD / yr dues, or I could choose NOT to join and it would cost me around $600 but I would get no protection or benefit from them.


Got cut out on prev post: either had to pay $800 and belong or could pay $600 and not belong.


P.S. Paid more dues (not monetary) when I did not belong to union, but subbed for 4 yrs.

98. on 03 Sep 2007 at 10:01 pm 98.Toodles said …

I wonder if you could do like the administrators do and not belong to their union and receive a $15,000 bonus as a compensation for that. That is how it works up there in the LAA (or should I say non LAA memebers). For us teachers that are left, I am sure if we were given the choice of having back itinerants and gaining back our sanity with smaller class sizes the 3% increase could be sacrificed. My sanity is much more important than money. I am not a teacher for the money, but for the love of teaching, which is soooooo lacking right now! I don’t want to go back tomorrow!

99. on 03 Sep 2007 at 10:13 pm 99.frustrated said …

Just posting for the first time this week-end so here are my thoughts on the MJ news. First of all, I NEVER wanted to see Dee’s picture again! I said a few #$*7& words and then preceeded to read it but was haunted when ever my eyes would accidently view her. I had almost forgetten her sharp razor like eyes, I could go on and on about the photo but.. Dee gave presentations on charter schools coming??? I’d like to see that? “Let’s cut all field trips, recess, some gifted programs, teach to the test 24/7, give tests, tests, tests, did I say tests?” “this will definitely draw all students back to Lorain.” “oh- let’s move all the specialized reading teachers to the older grades to drill kids with test questions.” “Another thing- let’s move staff and principals around every year so families don’t build any connections with them.” “Sound good?” The Famous 5- answer- “YES, Dee, Yes.” _oh, I forgot, Cynthia Miler didn’t answer, she just nodded her head in quiet agreement. THAT’S HOW WE GOT HERE- RG- just ask us!

I think the article hurt us more than helped LCS. Sounds like charter schools have it all- if a kid misbehaves- see ya! LCS has to transport them? What’s that about? Music, gym, art- isn’t it a shame that those subjects seem extravegant (sp) now??? Hopefully Atkinson can find creative ways to get the district back on its feet. She should start by listening to teacher’s advice- we’re on the front line every day.I could go on and on- but I’ll give somebody else a turn. Oh- this was funny I was reading a book on classromm management and it suggests involving counselors as part of helping some students- I just LOL- yeah- we wish we had counselors available. Another funny- I spent a lot of $ this week-end on supplies for my room and there was another teacher at the counter next to me using a check from her school for her supplies. Once again, I went to my happy place and dreamed that my district was going to pay the bill for my classroom supplies.


Frustrated..I agree with you about the MJ article hurting us more than helping, but they always seem to do that. Let’s give all the reasons on the front page of the paper on why we should send our students to Charter Schools!!!! I am very one-sided when it comes to CHARTER SCHOOLS! I am totally against them…sorry if that offends anyone I truly am…it’s just my strong opinion.


I blog under this name because I also fear my union. I don’t feel LEA is here to protect. We already know it was willing to sacrifice jobs to not have to reconvene. And were aren’t talking about a few jobs, they knew it would be well over 100 riffed. Does that sound like a union that works for it’s members?

102. on 04 Sep 2007 at 8:12 am 102.The Truth will set you free said …

Didn’t the MJ actually expose two (2) lies stated by TPTB? First, showing the Charter Schools here in Lorain and WHY….by putting D.M. picture within the story and quoting her about her/their knowledge about losing children to these schools. Over the past two (2) years I personally didn’t see them doing anything to prepare for Black Thursday, I actually saw continued vast unnecessary spending.

Second, now I don’t have the article in front of me, but it was reported how ‘they’ didn’t have the actual number of children that were lost and had to hire an outside group to investigate to get the actual $$$$ number of children, blah, blah….so, if…..they had to do this, doesn’t that relieve Mr. Estle from the accusation of him not projecting future losses of children going to Charter Schools?

We all have our own personal perspectives when we read something….but I will tell ya, I was thinking that maybe this was the MJ way of delicately exposing TPTB. I don’t know.

On the other hand, the citizens that have not been keeping up with what’s going on, could very easily have read into all that as LCS, and it’s always the teachers that take the fall, which angers me, that LCS what’s the word? That the LCS has failed it’s community. I didn’t even want to write those words because like I said, it always falls on the teachers.

I have between family and friends, over twenty children that are currently attending LCS….I’m letting them know to contact the new Super with any concerns….that the teachers it seems are the ones that have had to make the supreme sacrifices…AND that when they vent to the teachers about concerns over the changes that are occuring in the schools this year is NOT their fault and are being made to pick up the slack for other dept. personnel. Not only the teachers but the Principals and Bldg. Sec’ys. as well.

So I say this…..until TPTB and some of the very high paid individuals at Charleston start feeling the ’sacrifice’….well, do what you have to do to get this message heard.

No one commented on D.M.’s statement about how we all need to become like Wal-Mart greeters. WHAT? To get parents into the buildings, this is what came to mind? My mind can go all over the place with that remark.


Fellow Wommers I think this we knew we didn’t spin needs to be an article “with links” of the she said , they said for the sake of “the record” Anyone want to handled that or write a guest blog Loraine

104. on 04 Sep 2007 at 9:15 am 104.Lilac said …

Enough finger-pointing already!

Let’s get over the “he needs to lose his job” mentality. It is time to get over the finger-pointing and move forward in as positive manner as possible. LCS has faced similar situations before and we and our students have managed to survive and move forward.

I believe we as a community are looking for direction and re-organization from the new superintendent to bring LCS back to its position as a top-notch-school. Let’s give her a chance. You-ve all heard that “Rome wasn’t built in a day.” therefore, we need to remember that the problems will not be corrected over-night.We all know where the problems began, we all know how we were all deceived (community members as well as employees) There is a new person at the helm, let’s give her a chance.

We as a community have notified the TPTB that “We’re not gonna to take it anymore!” It is obvious that the message has been heard since some incumbents have chosen not to run for re-election (regardless of the spin they are putting on their non-campaigns). We have served notice we will not sit back and be non-powers again. Lets look forward and work to correct the problems instead of being a part of the problem. New superintendent, new board of education, a new beginning. We cannot change the past, but we can keep an eye on the future; learn from the mistakes of the past so we do not repeat them in the future.


Lilac I absolutely cringe when I hear that term “lets move forward” to where ?????….. every organization/ government/ etc uses that term “move forward” infuriates me because they never say how the plan to move forward…..I also believe that we as a people wait for the mess to get buried and for something else to take its place and it is forgotten and therefore the accountablity is also buried………well LCS haven’t progressed have they , they may have survived but their “health and reputation” are costing this city …. sorry I don’t agreeyou need to do more than survive you need to reinvent the LCS and soon……… inho Loraine


I also believe there must be accountability and restitution from those who have damaged the system so badly. We may not get full restitution, but in order to put closure and move forward, you have to goals and objectives that are attaina in some way. I believe, the recall will do that. So if Dina even thinks she may run again, she is sorely out of touch with her community. I feel sooooo much has been wrecked, that it will take much more time, more action and better investigative reporting to even know how to move forward from what has been left of LCS.

That is another reason, I feel local, homegrown people with a true vested interest should be at the helm–not a highly paid, cookie cutter administrators from out of town. But we are STUCK with what the BOE gave us.


Amen to Loarine Ritchey!! Very well said. Also, in order to “move on” one must know exactly what happened to cause the problem and there must be accountability so that the same mistakes don’t happen again!!! So, in a way we need to solve problems by knowing what the problems are first and try to avoid the same mistakes again! Kids learn that first hand through reward/consequence, if I pinch my sisters arm, I will get into trouble, so I will try not to do it again, (or at least not get caught HEE HEE)


Hey Devastated, Any plans for this week? Let me know, or call me. Also, remember to call me if you hear anything, you are ahead of me on the list, and I would think logically things might be sort of figured out this week?

109. on 04 Sep 2007 at 11:42 am 109.The Truth will set you free said …

#102http://web.archive.org/web/20071024015105/http://www.morningjournal.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=18775750&BRD=1699&PAG=461&dept_id=566374&rfi=8D.M. said, “We need to be like the Wal-Mart greeters, We need to bring these people back into the school system.”

The paragraph prior is stating ‘Parents also needed to know through interactions with building staff that they were wanted in the school…per DM.


Riffers, what’t the plan for this week? Thurs. doesn’t work for Little Dudz.


Apparently the font page of the paper mj ( not on line ) has an article with regard to the loss of the communications position……. but not confirmation or denial just wait for the Spet 10 th BOE Loraine


Has anyone called or emailed Alan Ingram at MJ in relation to the info in the CUPP report? I am not sure if I have that right, but anyone know where I can see a copy? It sounds like MJ is printing more about the mess up and may be on a roll. Thanks.


Move on-There will be students who will pay for years if not for the rest of their lives for these

mistakes that Lilac says we need to forget.The primary grades are a critical base for ones education and my fear is that many will fall through the cracks with these large classes and shortened days. And with no plan in place, is next year going to be any better for these little ones? The ones that will pay will be poor readers becoming the ones who act out and cause problems the rest of their school career if not the rest of their lives. And that’s because this society finds it easier to short change and cheat the children and then build jails for the adults.


CUPP report-go to the ODE website and type in their search CUPP. It will tell you it’s renamed but click it and it’s that easy.


If the MJ is LOOKING for info-they can get it right off of the LCS website. On the main page select Teachers/Staff tab, then select strategic planning and finally click on PDK audit. You should read all the quotes they had on their from board members. Unbelievable.


Thanks so much, Ruffled. Discouraging, to say the least!


Riffers.. how about mcdon play land tomorrow about 1230?

118. on 04 Sep 2007 at 1:28 pm 118.Henery said …

D.M. said, “We need to be like the Wal-Mart greeters, We need to bring these people back into the school system.”

The difference between walmart and the LCS is the folks in walmart, want to be there.


I did not receive an OAT report on my children.Did anyone? If so, what do I have to do to get a copy of mine?

120. on 04 Sep 2007 at 2:52 pm 120.Lilac said …

#113 Ruffled and Baffled: I never said forget the mistakes, I said move on. We survived this before (I have a son that is proof of that) so, it can be done.

#105 Loraine Ritchey: OK, let’s not “move forward”; let’s stay obcessed with the past and the mistakes and what who did what to whom and forget about progress and correction and the things that are important. LETS STAY STAGNAT!

121. on 04 Sep 2007 at 3:16 pm 121.Martin Buck said …

If you are going to shout, even in a vitual school lounge, you watch your spelling. It is STAGNANT. Although not all of us are educators, we are all teachers and learners.


Oh don’t go on about spelling I feel guilty enough as it is flying fingers and not proof reading is MY biggest sin…………Lilac HOW are you going to move on???you have stated people have to move on..HOW? I really would like some solutions…….what do you see as moving on?….. what are YOUR ideas ? how can we implement them? It is all very well to say move on move forward….just tell us how I am sure that over 300 people are waiting with baited breath and would be only too willing .it is all very well to criticize and say do this or do that tell us how? people are looking for solutions so what are they… I am sure they would ALL like to move on and put this behind them so how do YOU suggest they do that?????????????

You aren’t staying stagnant you are losing ground.. credibility, and the ripple effect is causing this city major problems including losing its tax base…….how many students have left and why , how many people are not buying in Lorain due to the “stagnant” school system …stag·nant (stgnnt)adj.1. Not moving or flowing; motionless.2. Foul or stale from standing: stagnant ponds.3.a. Showing little or no sign of activity or advancement; not developing or progressing; inactive: a stagnant economy.b. Lacking vitality or briskness; sluggish or dull: a stagnant mind.

No I don’t want to stay stagnant but to get moving on you need a something other than “lets move on!” Loraine


If the MJ prints a rumor, does that give it more credence than an ordinary rumor?


well precisely .well put….we at Wom had that same story given to us by a number of people on the 24th of August…. but it still to me is rumor until verified by those that are

involved or it is official…..so WoM didn’t publish it along with a couple of other rumors the mj may want to be forcing a hand and have it in before the other paper……but

factual reporting suffers in that case imho ….. Loraine

125. on 04 Sep 2007 at 3:56 pm 125.numbers game said …

Posted on the LCS homepage

“Lorain City Schools posted one of the highest improvement rates in the entire state - fifth out of 613 school districts – on the 2003 proficiency tests and continues to have steady and notable improvement.”

Does anyone else think it’s funny that the district is boasting stats from 4 years ago??? Unbelievable, if the rumors aren’t true about the communications director they seriously need to re-evaluate that person’s performance. My ass would be in a sling if I gave a report to my manager (I’m in sales) touting “success” based on figures from 4 years ago!! What a joke, this goes on unchecked and IT’S ON THE HOMEPAGE OF THE LCS WEBSITE for the entire world to see!

126. on 04 Sep 2007 at 4:08 pm 126.trying to survive said …

Check out the PDK audit (pages 14-15). That’s where our precious board gave out the sad, yet comical answers to the auditors questions. You can find the site by checking out the info given in comment #115.


Just checking up on my reading today. I heard 8 days for Dean, but hey, we have been hearing these rumors repeatedly, so I guess I will believe it when I see it. About the moving on, if I continue to “move on” at the rate I am going, I will “moving on” to a new career. The fact that I could go work at Walmart and have more potty breaks is CRAZY. Many teachers can not take these no breaks in the a.m. anymore. We need to fix these issues before we move on because I will be moving on to the mental ward soon!

128. on 04 Sep 2007 at 5:15 pm 128.Anne Nonuhhmuss said …

I would LOVE to move on. In order for that to occur, however, there are several prerequisites that I feel are needed.

First, Dean must go. Whatever you think about him personally, he is a lightning rod for criticism. It doesn’t matter how many winged monkeys are free: as long as he is around, the witch cannot truly be dead.

Second, there needs to be a full and open accounting of what happened. What did they know and when did they know it? Why was nothing done to prevent this? Stop lying. Stop blaming someone else. We are all sick of hearing the excuses.

Third, we need to know THE PLAN! That is, if there is one. I can handle having 38 first graders in my class if I know that someone is doing something to fix it. I won’t like it, but I can handle it. If there is some master plan, we all need to know it. Now. Not next week or next month. Now.

Finally: Dr. Atkinson and the rest of them need to prove to me that they are doing all they can. That includes putting in the hours and the effort, and making sure that no money is being wasted. Don’t tell me: show me! I’ve had enough of that two-faced jargon-laden obfuscation from Charleston to last me a lifetime.

129. on 04 Sep 2007 at 6:08 pm 129.Veteran Teacher said …

#95…Kyle…who told you you would not get protection or benefits if you only paid the “Fair Share” fee? I am very curious about this. It sounds to me like you did not talk to someone savvy with LEA.


RE:#121…did you mean “virtual”?


Nice catch Jennifer.

132. on 04 Sep 2007 at 7:06 pm 132.Kyle Gaskell said …

Hi Veteren,

When I went to Juanita last year to sign my contract and get health and other info, she asked about how I wanted my union dues taken out. I asked why I had to join the union since I was a counselor? Was told, that’s how it has always been done. I then asked, do I have a choice NOT to join? That is when I was told that I did have a choice BUT it would cost me “almost the same amount in dues” and that the union would not be there to support me if I needed them. I would lose the benefit of their help or guidance.

I did not mean a lack of benefits as in health. Hope that clears it up. And yes, I did join and I did pay my dues out of each paycheck. But I still think counselors should NOT be in the same union as teachers.

133. on 04 Sep 2007 at 7:33 pm 133.teachme 30 said …

Kyle,. The language for a union is not written for one but for all. Guidance in not it’s own sector. I know of no union of councelors. If you find one let the others know…I think they would not leave our union so you would be alone. Fair share was started shortly after the strick many moons ago. It is what it says. You pay for your share.


No problem, got the message. Just an update. We are no longer Guidance Counselors. That is a passe title. Current graduates are considered “Counselors” which is more therapuetic in nature. We are not trained to do scheduling or other admin duties.

Do you know how School Psychologists got to have their own union with admin? I really would like to know. Not all change is bad.


Some districts do include School Counselors in with their School Psychologists union.


First of all, SERIOUSLY is there really a class with 38 first graders?????? If there is, that is completely INSANE and should be fixed ASAP!!!!!! In some districts that is 2 classes, not one!!!!!!!! Oh wait, way back in Lorain 20 and 18 were the norm for first grade so the kids would get the education they deserve!!!!! I would like to know where the low numbers are, because all of my friends have between 28 and 32 kids. Where are the low numbers? Also, what is up with the breakfast thing. I thought we were not supposed to volunteer anything, and now we are encouraged to volunteer to do the 15 minute breakfast to be compensated with a day off? Hello, that is taking an Itinerants job. If we all ban together and say NO, then TPTB will NEED to find another way to solve THEIR problem, like go back to the old schedules, bring back art/gym/music, and give us, the classroom teachers, our contracted breaks/plan times!!! Is there more than just a small group of us that see the advantage of not doing breakfast? If they MAKE us, then fine, I will file my grievance, but I will not volunteer. I am furious hearing all of this news, it is as if nothing has changed since the beginning of this mess. Plus, I hear one thing from a building rep, another from exec., etc. Where is the consistency in staying together as a group?The new Super needs to step up and show us how SUPER she can be!!!! I know she has the power in her, so let’s hear the BIG PLAN!!!!!!


And as for “moving on” I have a hard time when I have no clue where I am moving on to. If I am stuck in this crappy situation, then so be it, but then TPTB need to tell me personally flat out that the contract will not be followed!


Hey, did anyone go to the Board Meeting, we had soccer so we could not go. Anything exciting or new? I could go to playland, which one? I will only have one kid, my Kindergartner gets on the bus around 12:15, so I might be a bit late since the bus has not been consistent.

139. on 04 Sep 2007 at 8:48 pm 139.the dead horse said …

will you all pleeeeese stop beeeeeating meeeeee?

You know you’ll get answers when they’re good and ready to give you answers.You also know that you may never get all the answers that you seek.There’s nowhere to go from here but up. That isn’t going to happen overnight and it isn’t going to happen sitting here hashing and rehashing and re-rehashing the same stuff to no avail.


i can’t stop laughing…


Dudz…. Amherst… 12:30 ish????

Anyone else in????

142. on 04 Sep 2007 at 9:08 pm 142.Do U C What I C? said …

Here is the link to the Cupp Report [or District Data Profile]:

http://web.archive.org/web/20071024015105/http://odevax.ode.state.oh.us/htbin/F2006-DISTRICT-PROFILE-HISTORICAL.COM?irn=044263+Lorain+City+SD+%28Lorain%29

THE TOP SECTION IS A HISTORY OF LORAIN’S SPENDING DATING BACK TO ‘97. THE BOTTOM SECTION DISPLAYS STATE AVERAGES FOR THE YEARS ‘97-’06

NOTE LINE 13 WHICH IS LABELED: Instructional Expenditure Per Pupil

AND LINE 16 WHICH IS LABELED: Administrative Expenditure Per Pupil

COMPARE WITH THE STATE AVERAGE IN BOTH CATEGORIES. Instructional expenditures grew from ‘97 to ‘06 at the same rate of increase as the state average.

HOWEVER LORAIN WENT WAY OVERBOARD WITH ADMINISTRATIVE HIRING WHILE DEE DISMANTLED THE PROGRAMS THAT WERE GREAT FOR STUDENTS (Accelerated Reading, and Accelerated Math, just to name two…there are many more).

No Lilac, we’re not moving on until TPTB acknowledge & CORRECT this! The ship’s captain cannot correct the ship’s course until she recognizes how far off course the ship has gotten!


Dead Horse-and nothing will get solved if we just take it as is. WE NEED to fight to get back what is ours-a contract signed by BOTH PARTIES!!! Are you saying we should sit back and let our school system fall apart. And trust me, it could get worse, we can go down more before we go up!


Yes, I am in, I just may be a bit late, depending on the school bus. Remember socks for the kids, they can’t play without them.


Do you C: Nice analogy with the ship and captain… That is true…

Toodles: I agree things could and will get much worse IF we just move on.. We need to fix this and I will be first in line to move on , ONCE this is fixed.. I have a child starting Kind in a year and I am watching closely to see if they will attend Lorain or one of our Catholic schools.. How this is fixed will determine a lot…

Dudz: Thanks for the reminder about the socks.. threw them in my purse… See you tomorrow amherst 1230…

Hope to see Froggy, Ruffled and anyother riffed friends or non riffed readers who can make it…


I’m in for McDonald’s -is that the one on 58?LMAO-spelling error when correcting another.


Devastated….I would love to make it, but I have to work tomorrow (HA) But I will be thinking of you…eat a happy meal and fries for me…Froggy’s mom can’t make it…has other plans, wish she can go!


Along with Dean’s salary his food allowance will be gone too (I am not kidding!) I did not realize they got credit cards to use to wine and dine people!


That’s what I heard too…UNREAL!


Devastated come out and play!


Is Dean done? I haven’t heard a confirmation on that one. Does anyone know? Was that part of the Board meeting tonight?


Froggy, Where do you want me to go??? Why can’t you come play with us tomorrow???

How dare someone correct another’s spelling when they are not perfect.. I though that earlier in the summer we agreed that this was a place that was safe and it was understood that spelling errors are common becasue we are typing so fast and have so much passion in what we are saying that sometimes it just comes out wrong.. Kinda like when you are talking fast and you mess up.. oooops.. it happens…

enough about that.. lets not be petty..

I also heard they got food allowances but we can hardly get paper and were told last year to buy our own construction paper… ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh where are the priorities?????????????????????????????????????

Sikufit… I miss you and hope we can all get together soon…

yes, the one on 58

153. on 04 Sep 2007 at 9:52 pm 153.Boat mama said …

DevastatedI will call off and see you there tomorrow. How was school?? mine loved it. Talk to you soon.

154. on 05 Sep 2007 at 4:27 am 154.Kyle Gaskell said …

Teachme 30,

You don’t need to be so smug regarding my answer to a question Veteran Teacher asked me regarding teacher’s unions. I am sick and tired of people who cannot see others

viewpoints. Thinking outside the box can be healthy, just as chsnge can be. And yes, of course I know unions are not for one. Come on, now! I do not need you to teachme 30.

155. on 05 Sep 2007 at 6:30 am 155.Do U C What I C? said …

Would someone please get this info from post #142(above) to Jim Smith, Bill Sturgill, and all who are vying for the seats on the school board?

Getting LCS back on track depends totally on eliminating the unnecessary administrative positions, as well as the costly benefits of those who would be kept on in administration. SCHOOL BOARD CANDIDATES NEED TO SEE THE PATTERN, AND THEN GET TO WORK RIGHTING THE WRONGS OF DEE MORGAN and crew.

Here is the link to the Cupp Report [or District Data Profile]:

http://web.archive.org/web/20071024015105/http://odevax.ode.state.oh.us/htbin/F2006-DISTRICT-PROFILE-HISTORICAL.COM?irn=044


Jim Smith and Bill Sturgill are well informed so I am sure they have seen the report and if not they read this and will. More importantly we need to know Atkinson has seen it, she’s the decision maker now.

While I am glad that the position of communications has been eliminated because that tells me that the district just may be headed in the right direction I can’t be happy for Dean Schnurr. I would never wish the pain that I have gone through and continue to go through on anyone. Does that mean I don’t hope more administrative positions are gone?-I hope they do I just understand the pain they are going to endure.

I still can’t believe people worry about the spelling here, nobodies typing is perfect. Sometimes when I read what I posted earlier I can’t believe I used the wrong their/there.

Toodles-I haven’t gotten you off of my mind since your blog about dreading going back. Since then I have heard that from many in the classroom and it is sad. I hope SOMETHING gets done. I know you teachers are making the best of this nightmare but you are only human.

157. on 05 Sep 2007 at 7:11 am 157.Sandra said …

I’ll be at McDonalds. Hopeful are you coming-haven’t seen anything from you lately? My meeting at my daughters school went very well. See ya there hopeful?


Hopeful: I hope you do come.. I loved seeing you last time…


I will be there, My kindergartner is very JEALOUS though, I have never taken my kids there to play, can you believe that? I have always been too busy, I guess this is my chance to HAVE SOME FUN and be a stay at home mommy. Also, did they for sure get rid of the communications job? I don’t get the MJ because we never read the paper (bad teachers we are huh?)I will be the pregnant one at McDonalds with little curly blond three year old, so you all know who I am, Sandra you know me:)

160. on 05 Sep 2007 at 8:28 am 160.Sandra said …

Hmmmmm, went on the LCS website to see last night agenda-still not there. Dudz-you don’t know the others? Sounds like a fun time them getting to more people.Hopeful-where are you?????


is anyone else having trouble with the lea website??

162. on 05 Sep 2007 at 11:26 am 162.hopeful said …

I’ve been working off some steam, but I will be there today with the little one in tow. I am going to be late. I have to take him from Ridgeville all the way to 58, so save me a seat.


we will be there.. dont’ worry.. Hopeful our mutual friend (out of state) said hi…talk to you today..


#132…Kyle…

Let me see if I can explain this. At one point in our contract, about 20 years ago or so, there was an option for individuals to belong to the LEA or not. (At one point, at least 23 years ago or so, there were 2 teacher unions and a few belonged to the other one, but most belonged to the LEA, but that is another story.)

Anyway, the LEA had the most members, so they did the bargining for the teachers. Hear me here: THEY DID THE BARGINING FOR ALL OF THE TEACHERS…EVEN THOSE THAT DIDN’T BELONG.

I believe it was under President Martha Smith that it was brought before the members, that since ALL teachers benifitied from the LEA and its negotiations and ALL teachers

were protected by the contract, that EVERYONE should at least pay something, even if they chose not to belong to all organizations of the union affiliations.

The majority of us who have belonged to the LEA for years felt that was fair…so a “Fair Share Fee” was instituted. AND HEAR ME AGAIN: This was because ALL teachers benefit AND are PROTECTED under the contract.

As far as counselors go and our contract, somehow they are covered in our contract, so therefore, they have the benefits of our contract. I am not sure how that was instituted in our system, but it is. That is why you had to pay the dues.

What I am most concerned about is how the information came down to you about the amount paid and what services you were to recieve for that amount.

Juanita has been with our system a long time and knows a lot about many things. I have the utmost respect for her…but maybe she is a bit confused about this issue.

Paying dues for a full year, gives you (or anyone for that matter) the RIGHT to be covered under the LEA contract and the services for which they provide. That means…any raises that are negotiated, hourly wages, health care, days off or legal counsel(etc…) are given to those working under that contract. You were a member, so you would be entitled to whatever anyone else got under the contract.

When you were hired, you probably didn’t care much about all of this but unfortunately, you were hired in Lorain and under the LEA. When that happens, you become part of the seniority list.

It is unfortunate that you were told that you had your job no matter what under the grant. (I read this in another post you had) Whoever you spoke to obviously does not understand our contract and gave you false information. In a perfect world, where Lorain had enough $ to function, they would not have laid off 242 teachers and you would still have your job, doing what you would love to do. Unfortunatly, when you were hired, no one (or at least not many) had a clue what kind of disaster LCS was going to be in.

I know some do not think it is fair that the teachers (or counselors or whoever) who have the most seniority get to stay. But that is the way it is.

I have worked in this system a long time and believe me, I hope to retire as soon as I can to allow someone else to maintain their job or get called back…but I also have been at the bottom of the list and had to go through the same worries as some of the rest of you. But I also knew that someday, I would have the seniority.

I guess what I am trying to say in a nice way is that while I understand where you are…I wanted to make sure you had the correct information about what you were entitled to in LEA. And ALSO…while many ‘young staff’ have paid their dues to LEA…I have paid my for over 20 years and I know how it works.

I am sorry that someone did not sit down and explain things correctly to you. I know you are very genuine about our students. Perhaps someday you will be able to function as a counselor again in our system.


Had a nice time at riffer’s lunch today. It was good to see even retired folk.Veteran teacher-nice explanation. You were mentioned at the lunch today, we all love your posts.


Loraine Ritchey, you were mentioned at the lunch today too. What does imho mean? None of us knew.

167. on 05 Sep 2007 at 8:31 pm 167.Kelly Boyer Sagert said …

In My Humble Opinion . . .


Thanks!


Thanks Ruffled and Baffled. I try and see many sides of the coin when I make comments…but as you can tell, I have definate opinions on the things that have happened in LCS because I have been around long enough to see many things happen.I also try and keep up on what administration has done over the years as well as the LEA contract.

Sometimes being a Veteran is an advantage.

170. on 06 Sep 2007 at 1:33 am 170.curiosus said …

RE: #164 Good explanation veteran teacher but it is not just a facet of the LEA. Ohio Revised Code addresses the issue of “fair share fees” for all public employees. Below is an excerpt from the law which governs such things. Kyle or anyone else would be expected to either join as a full member of the bargaining unit or pay a fair share fee regardless of which school system or other public employer they are employed by in Ohio.Excerpt from:CHAPTER 4117: PUBLIC EMPLOYEES’ COLLECTIVE BARGAINING4117.09 Parties to execute written agreement - provisions of agreement.……..”(C) The agreement may contain a provision that requires as a condition of employment, on or after a mutually agreed upon probationary period or sixty days

following the beginning of employment, whichever is less, or the effective date of a collective bargaining agreement, whichever is later, that the employees in the unit who are not members of the employee organization pay to the employee organization a fair share fee. The arrangement does not require any employee to become a member of the employee organization, nor shall fair share fees exceed dues paid by members of the employee organization who are in the same bargaining unit. Any public employee organization representing public employees pursuant to this chapter shall prescribe an internal procedure to determine a rebate, if any, for nonmembers which conforms to federal law, provided a nonmember makes a timely demand on the employee organization. Absent arbitrary and capricious action, such determination is conclusive on the parties except that a challenge to the determination may be filed with the state employment relations board within thirty days of the determination date specifying the arbitrary or capricious nature of the determination and the board shall review the rebate determination and decide whether it was arbitrary or capricious. The deduction of a fair share fee by the public employer from the payroll check of the employee and its payment to the employee organization is automatic and does not require the written authorization of the employee.The internal rebate procedure shall provide for a rebate of expenditures in support of partisan politics or ideological causes not germaine [germane] to the work of employee organizations in the realm of collective bargaining.Any public employee who is a member of and adheres to established and traditional tenets or teachings of a bona fide religion or religious body which has historically held conscientious objections to joining or financially supporting an employee organization and which is exempt from taxation under the provisions of the Internal Revenue Code shall not be required to join or financially support any employee organization as a condition of employment. Upon submission of proper proof of religious conviction to the board, the board shall declare the employee exempt from becoming a member of or financially supporting an employee organization. The employee shall be required, in lieu of the fair share fee, to pay an amount of money equal to the fair share fee to a nonreligious charitable fund exempt from taxation under section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code mutually agreed upon by the employee and the representative of the employee organization to which the employee would otherwise be required to pay the fair share fee. The employee shall furnish to the employee organization written receipts evidencing such payment, and failure to make the payment or furnish the receipts shall subject the employee to the same sanctions as would nonpayment of dues under the applicable collective bargaining agreement.No public employer shall agree to a provision requiring that a public employee become a member of an employee organization as a condition for securing or retaining employment.” Effective Date: 03-01-1990The following link takes you to the full text of the law.http://web.archive.org/web/20071024015105/http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/4117.09


Huh? What does that exactly mean curiousus? I read it, but I don’t really understand it. One must remember that if we weren’t protected under the union, we would have been

cut and there would not be a recall list at all. (I do believe that state/gov. employees are still recognized by seniority, so they would have cut from the bottom, however tenure would not have been brought into the factor.) That is how many districts in the south do it, the only difference is that their pay is HORRIBLE in many areas and it is much easier to get rid of teachers that administration does not like or if they are not doing their job per their description. Also, their pay scale does not go up much with steps/lanes unless you are in an affluent part of the county district. I have had many friends that have taught in Texas, Carolinas, Tennessee, Kentucky, etc. due to the teacher surplus in MN and WI, and believe me, not being protected by a union is NOT A GOOD THING!!They are supurb teachers but were not treated as such.


OH-I had a great time yesterday! We will need to get together again soon! Sandra, is that beach still open after Labor Day or is it shut down now? This heat is killing me, and I would love to go somewhere and swim, Maude Nieding is now closed, and I think most pools are. Does anyone know if the outdoor part to Splash Zone is closed now?

173. on 06 Sep 2007 at 9:30 am 173.disgruntledmom said …

I think this union question that Kyle has is relAbout Your Legal Rights: Public School Teacher or College Professor

Can I be required to be a union member or pay dues to a union?You cannot be required to be a union member in any state. If you are not a member, you are still fully covered by the collective bargaining agreement that was negotiated between your employer and the union, and the union is obligated to represent you. Any benefits that are provided to you by your employer pursuant to the collective bargaining agreement (e.g., wages, seniority, vacations, pensions, health insurance) are not affected by your nonmembership. (If the union offers some “members-only” benefits, you might be excluded from receiving those.)

If you are not a member, you may not be able to participate in union elections or meetings, vote in collective bargaining ratification elections, or participate in other “internal” union activities. However, you cannot be disciplined by the union for anything you do while not a member.

A number of states have passed laws which either require, or authorize public employers and labor unions to negotiate agreements which require, all educators to either join the union or pay the equivalent of union dues as a condition of employment.

However, as a result of Abood v. Detroit Board of Education, 431 U.S. 209 (1977), a lawsuit that was supported by the Foundation, educators cannot be required to do more than pay a union fee (typically called an “agency fee”) that equals their share of what the union can prove is its costs of collective bargaining, contract administration, and grievance adjustment.

Except in extraordinary cases, the union’s costs of collective bargaining, contract administration, and grievance adjustment do not equal the dues amount.

You have a right to object and obtain a reduction of your compulsory agency fee payments so they do not include the part of dues that is used for purposes other than collective bargaining and contract administration.

The employer and the union must establish certain procedures to safeguard your right to pay only a limited fee to the union. These safeguards include giving you:

audited financial information about how the amount of the agency fee was calculated;an opportunity to challenge the amount of the agency fee before an impartial decision-maker; and,the right to place the contested amount of the agency fee in escrow so that the union will not be able to illegally use your money while a decision on the proper amount of the agency fee is pending.

Your right to proper safeguards is based upon Chicago Teachers Union v. Hudson, 475 U.S. 292 (1986), another lawsuit that was supported by the Foundation.ated to the “Right to work” laws. I found this:

174. on 06 Sep 2007 at 11:33 am 174.curiosus said …

Little Dudz: disgruntled mom in #173 did a good job of putting layman’s terms the quote which I posted regarding Ohio law. Thanks, disgruntled mom.


Thank you Veteran teacher, and others for giving me such a good and detailed explanation on the LEA. I have the highest regard for Juanita also, and have told her so. Sometimes people assume we “outsiders” know more than we do. Maybe because I had been a sub for so long. At any rate, I had no problem becoming a “part” of the LEA–just wanted to know how it comes to be and what options might have been available.

As far as the info given us regarding the security of our granted position, it came directly from the mouth of Maria Sanchez (Masson Principal), who claims she helped write the grant. Therefore, Tina and I had no reason NOT to take her at her word. She has experience with the LEA, but STILL INSISTED that we could NOT be touched. So much for our gullibility!

Not to beat a dead horse, but ALL school counselors in the past HAD to be past teachers. So that is how I assume it evolved to include them in the LEA. However, times have changed along with the training. In 2003, Ohio joined MOST other states in the country to allow School Counselors NOT to have background in teaching. This was done because the new direction and graduate course work deals mostly with therapuetic counseling and not with scheduling and other admin duties. Change happens slowly and I am sure it will

take quite a while longer before more non-teaching counselors have the same opportunities as past teaching counselors do.

I am from a generation of KSU Viet Nam protesters! At any rate, I have always been willing to go out on a limb for what I feel is fair. I have paid a price for that. On the other hand, it served my stidents well.

It is good to SHARE info and educate one another. I not only get a better understanding of where most of you come from, but you get to see where I am coming from. Change can be good or it can be uncomfortable for others. My feelings for what they are worth, is that since School Counseling has changed, it may better be served in a different union–that’s all. School Psychologists have their own for some reason, and I do not understand that. Remember, School Psychologists are NOT Psychologists. Those are PHDs. School Psychologists deal with testing and their training is quite limited in couseling. Most people do not know this. So why aren’t they required to be under the LEA? Noone has given me a rational explaination and that is all I am curious about. And why not Principals too?

Again, I really do appreciate what you have said. You did it without being condescending which makes me more open to what you have to say.

Hey, if I can never get back into counseling, because I do not have the years teaching to give me seniority, I am thinking of starting an image consulting business. So I always say when one door closes, it forces you to open a few others.

Documents

thatwoman.files.wordpress.com€¦ · Web view1074 Responses to “LCS Lounge” on 31 Aug 2007 at 6:03 pm 1. word of mouth » A Little Place to Call Your Own. said … […] LCS