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UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF LABOR
MINE SAFETY AND HEALTH ADMINISTRATION
PUBLIC HEARING ON PROXIMITY DETECTION SYSTEMS FOR
MOBILE MACHINES IN UNDERGROUND MINES
Birmingham, Alabama
Thursday, October 8, 2015
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PARTICIPANTS:
THOMAS WILSON
DWIGHT CAGLE
GLENN SMITH
KEITH PLYLAR
JAMES BLANKENSHIP
RUBLE SISCO
NICK HAYFORD
* * * * *
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C O N T E N T S
HEARING EXHIBITS:
No. 1 - Photographs
No. 2 - Photographs
No. 3 - DVD Presentation
* * * * *
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P R O C E E D I N G S
(9:00 a.m.)
MS. McCONNELL: Good morning, everyone.
If you will kindly have your seats we will start
this hearing. Can everyone hear me? Can you hear
me now? Good morning. My name is Sheila
McConnell. I am the acting director for the
Office of Standards Regulations and Variances for
the Mine Safety and Health Administration. I will
be the moderator for this public hearing on MSHA's
proposed rule on proximity detection systems for
mobile machines in underground mines. On behalf
of the assistant secretary for MSHA, Joseph A.
Main, I want to welcome all of you here today and
thank you for your attendance and participation.
I would like to introduce the members of
the MSHA panel. On my left is Rodney Adamson from
the Coal Mine Safety and Health. Next to Rodney
is Emily Toler from our Office of Solicitors, and
on my right is Wesley Shumaker, Approval and
Certification trainer and technical support.
I would also like to introduce Debra
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Janes in the back of the room. She's in the
audience. She works for MSHA's Office of
Standards.
MSHA's holding four public hearings on
its proposed rule for proximity detection systems.
This is the second. We held a hearing in Denver
on Tuesday and the remaining hearings will be on
the 19th in Beaver, West Virginia, and in
Indianapolis on October 29th.
The purpose of this is hearing is to
receive information from the public that will help
MSHA evaluate the proposed requirements and
produce a final rule that will improve safety
conditions at underground coal mines.
As most of you know, the formal -- as
most of you know, the hearings are conducted in an
informal matter. Formal rules of evidence do not
apply. The hearing panel may ask questions of
speakers and the speakers may ask questions of the
panel. Speakers and other attendees may present
information to the court reporter for inclusion
into the rulemaking record. MSHA will accept
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written comments and other appropriate information
for the record from any interested party,
including those presenting oral statements.
We have asked everyone to sign the
attendance sheets in the back of the room. Before
we discuss specific issues and hear from you, I
want to reiterate why we are proposing this rule.
From 2010 to 2014, 41 pinning, crushing,
or striking accidents involving coal hauling
machines and scoops occurred in underground coal
mines, injuries that may have been prevented by
the use of proximity detection systems on coal
hauling machines and scoops. Nine of these
accidents were fatal. MSHA published a final rule
of proximity detection systems for continuous
mining machines in underground coal mines on
January 15th, 2015. The final rule addressed
equipping place changing continuous mining
machines with proximity detection systems. MSHA
estimated that this rule will prevent, over the
next 10 years, 9 deaths and 49 nonfatal injuries
from pinning, crushing, and striking accidents
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involving place changing continuous mining
machines. This rule took effect on March 16,
2015, and will be phased in over 8 to 36 months.
MSHA developed this proposed rule for other
underground mobile machines to be comparable to
the final requirements for the proximity detection
systems on place changing continuous mining
machines. The proposed rule would require a
proximity detection system to stop the machine
before contacting a miner and provide audible and
visual warnings on the miner-wearable component
and a visual warning on the machine before it
stops. MSHA estimates that this proposed rule
would prevent, over the next 10 years, 15 deaths
and 70 nonfatal injuries from pinning, crushing,
and striking accidents involving coal hauling
machines and scoops.
MSHA published this proposed rule in the
Federal Register on September 2nd; the comment
period closes on December 1st this year.
MSHA intends that this proposed rule
will take advantage of existing proven technology
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to minimize the burden on mine operators, and will
also allow for advances in proximity detection
technology. We are proposing a phase-in in the
use of proximity detection systems on mobile
machines in underground mines - underground coal
mines over 8 to 36 months just as we did for
continuous mining machines. We are soliciting
comments on the proposed phase-in schedule and
what, if any, modifications may be needed on
mobile machines already equipped with proximity
detection systems.
This rule would help protect miners from
striking hazards that result from working too
close to mobile machines in underground coal
mines. The proposal would also establish
performance and maintenance requirements for
proximity detection systems and would require
training for miners conducting installation and
maintenance of these systems.
We are requesting comments from the
mining community on all aspects of the proposed
rule. We are particularly interested in comments
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that address alternatives to key provisions in the
proposal. Commentators are requested to be
specific in your comments and submit detailed
rationale for suggested alternatives to: safety
benefits to miners, technological and economic
feasibility, considerations and supporting
documentation.
At this point I would like to reiterate
specific requests for comments and information
that were included in the preamble to the proposed
rule. The first issue relates to determining
where and on which machines the use of proximity
detection would be the most effective in reducing
striking and crushing accidents. This proposal
would require underground coal mine operators to
equipment coal hauling machines and scoops on the
working section with proximity detection. Coal
hauling machines would include shuttle cars, ram
cars, and continuous haulage systems. The working
section would include the areas of the coal mine
from the loading point up to and including the
working faces.
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MSHA is requesting comments on whether
other types of mobile machines, such as loading
machines, roof bolting machines, and feeder
breakers should be required to be equipped with
proximity detection. We are also requesting
information and data that would support whether or
not the proposed requirements should apply to coal
hauling machines and scoops used off of the
working section. We are particularly interested
in receiving comments on what, if any, challenges
would need to be addressed when adapting proximity
detection to continuous haulage systems
considering the machines length and unique
interaction with continuous mining machines.
The proposal would exclude longwall
working sections. MSHA is requesting information
and data on whether scoops and coal haulage
machines cause a hazard to miners on longwall
working sections and if the use of proximity could
reduce or eliminate these hazards. MSHA requests
that commentators, again, include specific
information on any rationale for not excluding
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longwall working sections, the safety benefits to
miners, the cost of implementation, technological
and economic feasibility considerations, and
supporting data.
Since 1984, there have been five
fatalities that have occurred in underground metal
and nonmetal mines where the use of proximity
detection could have prevented accidents. For
this reason we are also requesting comments on
whether the agency should require proximity
detection systems on mobile machines used in
underground metal and nonmetal mines and, if so,
which types of machines and what time frames.
The second issue concerns the
application of proximity detection system
technology for use on mobile machines in confined
spaces of an underground mine. MSHA's approved
proximity detection systems consist of a
machine-mounted component and a miner- wearable
component. This proposed rule would also
accommodate possible future technologies that may
not require a miner-wearable component. We are
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aware that the interaction of multiple machine
types equipped with proximity detection may
necessitate changes to work practices.
We are also aware that when a coal
hauling machine equipped with proximity detection
gets near a continuous mining machine with
proximity, the overlap of the two protection zones
may limit where miners can position themselves to
remain safe and to avoid activation of warning
signals and to avoid unintentionally stopping the
machine.
MSHA is especially interested in
comments on how the use of proximity detection and
the overlap of the protection zones on multiple
types of machines operating on the same working
section might affect and miners' working position
and equipment operation. We have proposed that
the proximity detection systems provide audible
and visual warnings signals on the miner- wearable
component and a visual warning signal on the
machine.
Mine operators often need to redirect
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their attentions from the front to the rear of the
machine and, in some cases, must switch seats when
changing direction. As a result, a visual warning
signal on the machine may not always be in the
operator's direct line of sight. We are asking
for comments on whether requiring audible warning
signals on the machine in addition to the visual
warning signals, would help ensure miners,
including the machine operator, know that a miner
is in the warning zone and the machine is about to
stop.
MSHA also specifically requests comments
on whether requiring the use of a specific warning
on the machine, for example, strobe lights or LED
lights or other types of visual signals, would
help to ensure that the visual warning is
effective in alerting miners near the machine,
including the machine operator. MSHA also
especially requests comments on what, if any,
experience or issues have been identified that
relate to the use of proximity detection systems
from different manufacturers on the same working
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section or to the use of a single miner-wearable
component with proximity detection systems from
different manufacturers or different models from
the same manufacturer.
As you address the proposed provisions
either in your testimony today or in your written
comments, please be specific. We cannot
sufficiently evaluate general comments. Include
comments on the estimated benefits and costs that
are summarized in our preamble as well as in our
preliminary regulatory economic analysis.
Specific information, again, allows us to produce
a final rule that is responsive to the needs and
the concerns of the mining public.
MSHA will make available a verbatim
transcript of this public hearing in about two
weeks after the completion of the hearing. You
may view the transcript of all public hearings and
comments on MSHA's website, MSHA.gov, and on
regulations.gov. If you have any submissions,
please give those to the court reporter so they
can be amended to the hearing transcript for
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today. Following the hearing you may submit
additional comments using one of the methods
identified in the address section portion of the
proposed rule. Comments, again, must be received
by December 1, 2015.
If you have not signed in at the
attendance sheet, please do so now. Before we go
on with the hearing I do want to announce one more
thing. I'd like to encourage you also to attend a
public meeting on refuge alternatives for
underground coal mining. This meeting will follow
a public hearing on proximity detection in Beaver,
West Virginia, on October 19th. The public
meeting on refuge alternatives will begin at 1:00
p.m.
At this public meeting we are hoping to
gather information on two critical issues relevant
to miners: Escape and refuge. These issues are,
one, impediments to the use of built in place
refuges and, two, enhanced two-way voice
communication when using escape breathing devices.
So that's just an announcement for another public
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hearing we're having on refuge alternatives on the
19th.
So now I would like to say we will begin
hearing testimony and if you have a copy of your
presentation, provide it to the court reporter.
When you come to the table please clearly state
your name and organization and spell your name for
the court reporter to make certain we obtain an
accurate transcript.
Our first speaker is Thomas Wilson.
MR. WILSON: Good morning, ma'am.
MS. McCONNELL: Good morning, sir.
MR. WILSON: My name is Thomas F.
Wilson, T-H-O-M-A-S, middle initial F as in
Frederick, Wilson, W- I-L-S-O-N.
I know that the -- I'm an international
representative for the United Mine Workers of
America. I know that the UMWA International has
already spoken in favor of this proposed rule. I
also echo those previous comments made by Linda
Raisovich Parsons in Denver, Colorado. Just for
the record I know Linda was scheduled to speak
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here today and, unfortunately, she was admitted to
one of our local hospitals last night. I spoke
with her this morning and they're still running
tests.
MS. McCONNELL: Well, please tell Linda
our thoughts and prayers are with her.
MR. WILSON: Appreciate that. I
sincerely regret the accident history that brought
us to today's hearing on this proposed rule. I'm
sure many will object as always to any new rules
or advancement in safety. I want to encourage
this panel to remember that the miner has no
control of a few things that leads us to these
accidents. The size of equipment that's being
used in coal mines, the miner has no control over
that. The amount of material hauled on the
equipment, again the miner has no control over
that.
Directives given to the miner as to when
and where to locate themselves around the
equipment, often the miner has no control over
that.
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I have observed in my career equipment
operators virtually driving blind because of the
material, cameras put on the equipment that then
the mud covers the camera, and we just find
ourselves in tough situations, dangerous
situations because of, again, the size and the
amount of material. And as those comments come in
I would encourage all to instead of just being
against something, we owe it to the families, we
owe it to the miners to eliminate these type of
injuries, these type of fatalities.
I have a memory of a -- in recent years,
of an accident in West Virginia where the miner
was actually caught by the piece of equipment.
The operator didn't even know that he had struck a
miner and it was much later in the shift when they
actually found the remains. And those are just
tragic preventable accidents, and proximity seems
to be the best thing out there to prevent these
type of fatalities.
I do want to address the exemption
clause. I believe that the scoops and
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versa-tracks on our longwalls and in outby areas
of the mines need to be included in the
regulations.
I'm approaching 40 years in the industry
and those 40 years have demonstrated that the
likelihood of injury on a long wall or in an outby
area is equal to or if not greater than on a
working section.
MS. McCONNELL: Will you be able to
provide any type of supporting data or information
on your request to include long wall sections and
those sections on off the working section?
MR. WILSON: No, just the fact that, I
mean, the scenarios and how we use that equipment
is -- there's no difference. I also want to rise
in support of the rule being expanded to cover
metal and nonmetal mines. Those miners' lives,
those accidents are equally as tragic as coal,
and, you know, if the system works then we need to
apply it.
MS. McCONNELL: Are you recommending any
particular type of machine or all machines or for
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metal, nonmetal underground mines?
MR. WILSON: Again, haulage, the scoops,
the versa-tracks, the front-end loaders. I do
believe that the training is going to have to be,
in my mind, really intensified on the front end as
-- I mean, you've got to -- with the proximity
systems on the continuous miners just coming in,
we've got a large learning curve to go through to
make all this work. And I believe MSHA has a
large learning curve to go through as well as the
operators and the miners.
So I would be in favor of an increased
training initially and maybe once things get in
place and we all know what we're doing, then we
could back off on that training some. We
definitely need increased training because there's
a lot of uncertainty, a lot of reservations about
where we're at and what this rule would do. I
have no other comments.
MS. McCONNELL: Well, thank you very
much, Mr. Wilson. I don't have any other
questions. Questions from the panel?
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MR. WILSON: Thank you.
MS. McCONNELL: Thank you very much.
Our next speaker is Dwight Cable, UMWA. I'm
sorry, Mr. Cagle, I mispronounced your last name.
MR. CAGLE: Cagle.
MS. McCONNELL: Cagle. Thank you. And
if you could say your name and spell it for the
court reporter.
MR. CAGLE: Dwight, D-W-I-G-H-T, Cagle,
C-A-G-L-E, Local 2397 UMWA, District 20, and I
work at the (inaudible) resources on the 7 mines.
MS. McCONNELL: Whenever you're ready.
MR. CAGLE: Okay. Your printout showed
that the proximity detection system was from the
ram cars, machines, scoops, ram, low track. I
know since '84 to 2013 by your printout that 75
preventable fatalities resulted from pinning,
crushing, and striking accidents. Thirty-four of
those were associated with continuous miners and
that leaves 41 remainders. Some of these
accidents, like I said, I've been working in the
mines for over 41 years, so I've been on Safety
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Committee 37 years. Some of them I investigated a
lot of accidents myself and some of them I was
aware of, such as unloading supplies with a scoop.
During some of this investigation we
found that the trams -- the scoop in some of the
older models. And all this was replaced
(inaudible) hole drives, so we took care of most
of that. And one of these that I was aware of was
a fatality. Two of them their legs was cut off.
One of them died later on this fatality and one of
them that I was aware of a man was run over with a
scoop and that happened at one of the four mines
that I worked at. Working in the past, to be
involved in these investigations I found out. And
how would that proximity protect this is one of
the questions I wanted to ask?
Malfunction of the equipment itself and
on the scoop itself, what we got what you call a
service crew. They got 8 to 10 foot holes that
they -- once they service (inaudible) blows rock
dust in the face. And I think on the printout
there it was 10 foot you got to be from the
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machines. Then we have another service crew
member pouring the dust into the hopper. They had
a lot of changes we're going to have to do in
order to put this rule in. And I think that we
need more investigation on this equipment. We
need you to come down and to observe what really
goes on during operation of this because we got,
again, the scoop itself, changing batteries, it
still takes two people. I don't know how we going
to work that. You know everyday mining, they need
to come down and see what really goes on in order
to put these proximity switches on.
Coal haulers - I don't have any
questions on that. The overlap of the protection
zone, how are we going to prevent that? Say we
got a scoop guy that's going to service the roof
bolter pinning machine, got a lot of questions
that need to be answered before. Which I'm in
favor of some kind of protection, you know, but a
lot of questions need to be answered before we do
this and a little more investigation.
Still like the miner I know we got to
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make it, one and two installed, and so far we had
a lot of problems with making (inaudible) 1 and 2.
And I think the first one straddled the
miner(inaudible), but in order to, you know, put
this in, a lot of stuff we got to get straightened
out before we put it in. Training, such as
training. Is this training going to be involved
in given as an annual refresher? Right now
everything you need fits into the eight-hours and
it's full. That eight hours is full. It's going
to be separate training, got a lot of questions
and some answers at this time. If we're going to
put this rule in we'll need a little more
evaluation on the equipment, what type of
equipment, how many people's involved in the
operation of this equipment.
Like I said, there's been all these
fatalities that I was personally involved in.
Well, I know the feeder, okay. In District 20 we
lost a man that went through the feeder. What
happened? There was laws already in place to
protect that. Proximity, I don't know how we
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would mount a proximity switch and protect a man
from going through the feeder.
Same way we had a man go through a
crusher on the long wall. And the law was
involved on it. How is that going to prevent him
from going through this? This happened. These
are the cases that I know about. A lot of
unanswered questions and, like I said, we need to
have examine this more thorough.
MS. McCONNELL: Well, the feeder right
now is not covered by this proposed rule.
MR. CAGLE: Ma'am?
MS. McCONNELL: The feeder would not be
covered by this proposed rule at this time.
MR. CAGLE: It would not be?
MS. McCONNELL: No.
MR. CAGLE: Just like I said, there's a
lot of stuff that we need to do a little more
investigations on. Training, like I said, with
MSHA and mine operators and the miners themselves
because, like I said, that scoop, that's one of
the pieces that they use round the clock, eight
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hours a day, the whole shift, and it's a lot of
jobs that the scoop does and usually it's three
people in involved.
MS. McCONNELL: So in your experiences,
though, have you seen any instances where a
detection system could have prevented an accident?
MR. CAGLE: Man getting run over, yes,
it could have prevented that, yes, that system up.
On the tram sticking, like I said, three cases
that I know about, malfunction of the equipment.
I don't know if the proximity switch would have
stopped it or not, but check back through the
accident history you'll find a little bit more
than what I know about. But there's a lot of
stuff got to be worked out before, like on the
scoop, a lot of stuff's got to be worked out. Go
down and observe the working and the environment,
which, like I said, I am for the system, but it
needs some more investigation on how we're going
to do this.
MS. McCONNELL: Okay.
MR. CAGLE: Thank you.
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MS. McCONNELL: Thank you.
MR. CAGLE: Any questions?
MS. McCONNELL: I think we're good.
Thank you for your testimony. Your concerns are
noted. Mr. Cagle was our last signed speaker. Is
there anyone who hadn't signed up that would like
to speak and talk about the proposed rule, their
experiences with proximity detection? This would
be a good time to come up and talk.
Okay. Come on up.
MR. SMITH: Name is Glenn Smith,
G-L-E-N- N, S-M-I-T-H, Walker Energy No. 709. The
only comment I would like to make in regards to
the proximity is we've got it on our continuous
miners now, so we've got, as Mr. Cagle stated,
we've got both the generation one matrix JOY and
generation two, issues with it. There are still
issues with it. We -- the first system that we
had was a Strata system. We never could make it
work. I understand they've got their problems
corrected now. But prior to enacting anything
that's put on the machines, these systems need to
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be perfected. There are still too ways for the
miners to defeat these systems.
MS. McCONNELL: Could you please give us
a couple of examples of those issues you see
day-to-day?
MR. SMITH: Well, the Generation 1, they
could -- they would find places where they could
actually hang it and still operate the machine.
Same thing with Generation 2. So if you're going
to put them on them, make sure they work.
And you can call it a discipline
problem, you can call it management problem, you
can call it whatever you want, but there's not a
person sitting in this room who doesn't have
children that you discipline. Did they ever do
anything that you told them not to? You're
driving down the interstate and the speed limit is
65, do you run 70? Do you? I do. You do, too.
Everybody in this room does. So that's going to
happen.
MS. McCONNELL: I will agree to not.
MR. SMITH: I'm just asking to make sure
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they work. That's all I've got to say. Thank
you.
MS. McCONNELL: Okay. Thank you, Mr.
Smith. We're only going to learn about this if
you guys come on down and tell us what your
experiences are. Oh, great. Thank you.
MR. PLYLAR: Good morning.
MS. McCONNELL: Good morning, sir.
MR. PLYLAR: Thanks for the opportunity
to address you with this issue. My name Keith
Plylar, K- E-I-T-H, P-L-Y-L-A-R. I come to you
this morning and I've been an advocate for safety
of the miners for 25+ years.
MS. McCONNELL: You are with?
MR. PLYLAR: I am with Jim Walter
Resources, number 7 mine. I'm the safety manager
at the present time, been involved with the labor
force over the years and safety along with the
operator. I come to you today to tell you there's
no doubt we need to continue to try to enhance the
safety of the miners. That should be our sole
goal to anyone working in the safety field. But
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in doing that we need to make sure that we do it
carefully and that we plan out and have a system
that will work. I think the worst thing that we
can do is the safety people out here in the
community, mining community, is to start throwing
stuff on equipment expecting it to do something
that it will not do, all right.
At our mine site we jumped ahead of the
regulations on the miner as far as putting the
proximity device on them. Then we went and we
spent several thousand dollars -- several
thousands -- putting the Generation 1 on it. Come
to find out there was flaws in it and then when
the regulations came out, there's no way that the
Generation 1 would comply with the regulations as
written because it wouldn't accept all the badges,
the multiple badges. So now, in the process we
went and put some Generations 2s on our miners,
trying to get them equipped. So a new miner that
came in prior to the reg actually coming into
effect to try to protect our miners.
And as I hear today there's a Generation
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coming out of this Matrix system, so what I'm
finding out from our maintenance people there's
not going to be a lot of different changes in it,
hopefully, but we don't know. So I guess I come
to you today to say it's kind of like Brother
Cagle spoke on, too, is that we need to make sure
that we have experience with this equipment, not
just take what we've seen in Australia or some
other country. We actually need some of these
systems in the mining industry and people down
there observing to see how they work and put them
on our actual machines.
The fear I have is, especially in the
economy now -- and when it comes to safety I don't
look at dollars, but in the economy today I've got
to the look at wasting money in our operations.
We come out and we start throw an Strata system, a
matrix system or another system, and then it not
work, that's thousands of dollars that we spent.
And besides the money, you give the miners a false
hope that they've got something on their piece of
equipment that's going to keep them from being
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injured and then the training you've got to do
with them over the years to tell them to stay out
of these red zones of any equipment, not only
miners, they can come to the conclusion, well, I'm
protected. If I get into this area my badge is
going to go off and that machine is going to shut
down, and then the technology not work as
designed.
So I would like to see some more
demonstrations in the mining industry here in the
United States and the different types of mining.
Because I know there's low coal, there's high
coal, what we call low coal/high coal, and
different conditions. And I think there needs to
more, I guess, tests and trials, you know, in this
mining industry to see if the system works. In
three years or four years, you mandate something
to be there, if the technology is not there and
we've just spent thousands of dollars, we still
haven't met our goal. We should be trying to
protect the miners as much as we can.
MS. McCONNELL: So my understanding is
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that at your mine you do not have any proximity on
any of your mobile equipment other than the
continuous miner.
MR. PLYLAR: That is correct. We have a
Generation 1 and Generation 2 matrix system on our
miners.
MS. McCONNELL: So your concerns are
based on your experience with proximity on your
continuous miners?
MR. PLYLAR: Yes, ma'am.
MS. McCONNELL: And how that's going to
translate to multiple machines on the working
section with these systems on it?
MR. PLYLAR: Yes, ma'am. And the other
question I guess I have and don't know, if we come
out and we have to put a totally different system,
say we have go away from the matrix and put
another system on your scoops or your shifters,
are they going to coincide? Are they going to
work, too?
MS. McCONNELL: Two different
manufacturing systems, right.
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MR. PLYLAR: Right. So then you could
be into having to take what you've already got
installed on your machines, all them, and put
another system on, too. So there's a lot of
unknowns out there. I definitely by no means
think the ball should be dropped. I think we
definitely need -- we're headed in the right
direction because it is something to protect the
miners and I definitely think all the resources
that's available needs to be put in that area.
But to put a mandate on something that we don't
know that will work yet is kind of like a miner --
we didn't even know -- as far as I know the MSHA
or whoever does the regulations wasn't even aware
of the Generation 1 matrix system on the miners
not accepting multiple badges until we had a
hearing. Okay. And I understand that's what
hearings are for, but, also, you need to be out in
field. And I think that Brother Cagle talked
about looking at people's positions and looking at
what they're doing before we just throw off a
mandate, you know, tech support and (inaudible)
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and a lot of people out there that could really
get a lot of information at this point in the
mines and actually looking at the working
practices.
And that's all I have.
MS. McCONNELL: I don't have any
additional questions. Questions?
Mr. Adamson would like you to explain in
detail your experiences with how PDS in general
doesn't work. He wants you to talk about some of
the issues that you've had with your Gen 2 Matrix
system, like specifics.
MR. PLYLAR: And I can't get into the
specifics. I'm not in the maintenance background
of it, but I know that they've had to change out
not only your badges several times, but also on
the on-board system that they have. And like I
said, the Gen 1 definitely won't accept but two to
three badges at the max, so we started trying to
put badges on all the systems, it's not available
and will not work.
MS. McCONNELL: I'm actually more
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curious about what are the problems with your
badges on your Gen 2s?
MR. PLYLAR: And I couldn't get into
details with you because I'm not in that
maintenance field of it. I could get you some of
the managers information, I can give you a
contact or get a number from you and have someone
contact you out of our maintenance that does work
on them because I'm not in the day-to-day
operations of the maintenance. Thank you.
MS. McCONNELL: Thank you, sir. Our
next speaker is Mr. James Blankenship.
Good morning, sir.
MR. BLANKENSHIP: Good morning. How you
all doing?
MS. McCONNELL: I'm doing fine. How are
you?
MR. BLANKENSHIP: Doing good.
MS. McCONNELL: Could you state your
name for the record and spell it for the court
reporter?
MR. BLANKENSHIP: James Blankenship,
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J-A- M-E-S, B-L-A-N-K-E-N-S-H-I-P. Just a minute.
It's kind of hard working one-handed.
MS. McCONNELL: I know, I noticed.
Don't rush.
MR. BLANKENSHIP: First, let me thank
you for coming to Birmingham, Alabama, to hold
these hearings. We appreciate you coming down
here. I'd like to comment on whether the proposed
requirements to require any mobile machines other
than coal hauling machines and scoops in use on or
off working sections and also whether the proposal
requirements to supply the coal hauling machine
and scoops in use on and off sections.
As you're well aware, there are more
mobile machines than just coal haulers and scoops,
the low tracks, the maintenance (phonetic) tracks,
backhoes, front-end loaders, and several different
types of mobile powered machines all through the
coal mines. They're making small equipment to get
them where they can take them on the belt lines to
help clean the belts, help them haul the belt
rollers and stuff into confined areas.
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These machines work in areas other than
working sections. They work all over the mines,
from the drip (phonetic) mouth to the bottom of
the cage, all the way into the mouth of the
sections. They work in areas where there's not a
lot of room due to the fact that they might be on
the belt line, areas where the stationary
equipment such as power extension pumps sit, where
they're confined. The types of areas where
there's a lot of -- where's not a lot of room to
maneuver. There are a lot of pinch points, which
increases the likelihood of a pinning or crushing
or striking fatality or injury.
In MSHA's report from 1984 through 2014,
there 2 fatalities and 29 accidents involving coal
haulers and scoops in areas off working sections.
What report does not say is how many accidents
were caused by equipment I mentioned above, which
was low tracks, megatracks, that type of
equipment. It says scoops and coal haulers. We
don't know what this equipment is doing to miners.
Any time you put a machine in a confined area with
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a human being, you've increased the odds
dramatically for a fatality or an accident.
Members of panel, the way to decrease
the odds dramatically is to require proximity
detection systems on all mobile machinery, for
that machine used on working sections, long walls,
or outby areas. By doing this we'll guarantee
that when that machine and the human being comes
close enough that harm could be done to that human
being, that that machine will shut down. A
machine that will not run, that cannot run, cannot
injure or kill a worker. If you save one life by
putting proximity detection systems on all mobile
machinery, then it's worth every penny you've
spent on it.
I heard the speaker before me talk about
cost and problems. When we went to remote miners
we had problems, but had to work the kinks out of
them. We had two different sets of remotes. We
had to work through that. We have to do the same
thing with this. We can do that, but to keep
putting it off until we get it perfect is not the
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answer. To say we're going to the wait until we
get it perfect to bring it underground is not the
answer. We've got men and women who work in these
coal mines' outby that working sections that are
in harm's way. In the confined areas you've got a
belt line in the entry and you've got timbers down
that entry way and you've got a piece of equipment
in there being operated and people around that
equipment. We need to protect those people. We
can do that by putting those proximity detectors
on that equipment.
I'd also like to comment on a couple
more items if it's okay. While we're on that part
of it, I'd like to comment on the proximity
detection systems on the machinery and metal and
nonmetal mines, also.
If you looked at the fatality
certificates on MSHA's website, there were 15
fatalities in metal and nonmetal mines. Four of
those fatalities, in my opinion, by looking at
them and researching and reading the reports,
could have been prevented by proximity detection
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systems.
There's four families that wouldn't be
suffering today because it was machinery where
people, workers were pinch, smashed, or crushed by
machines. Four. Four lives would have been
saved, four families, four fathers, four husbands,
four grandfathers could be here today with their
families if we put those on those machines.
As for what kind of equipment,
machinery, all mobile equipment in metal and
nonmetal. They deserve the same as underground
coal mines. They deserve the same protection.
Their lives are just as important as any other
life. We need to look it at hard. I'm not a
metal/nonmetal miner. I've never been in any of
those mines, but they need to be protected just as
well as everybody else does. And by reading all
MSHA's reports on those fatalities, I read them --
actually read them as late as last night, four of
them crushed, pinching, mashing by machinery could
have been prevented if that machine had stopped
when that gentleman, that worker got within range
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of that machine. It wouldn't have crushed him,
wouldn't have pinched him, wouldn't have mashed
him, wouldn't have killed him.
I can stand here today and give you all
kinds of reasons why the proximity detection
should be mounted on the equipment in
metal/nonmetal mines, but that'd be a waste of my
time and yours because it's a no- brainer. You
can save lives. Look at the 15 fatalities this
year, 4 of them could have been prevented. That
in itself is all that needs to be said, four lives
could have been saved. I ask you to go look at
the fatality reports on the metal/nonmetal for
this year and look at the four that was crushing
by machinery. And I hope you can come to the same
conclusion I did that those machines would have
stopped before they crushed those workers to death
if there had been a proximity switch on them that
shut them down and stopped them.
I did spell my name correctly I think.
I'm the United Mine Workers district
representative. I'm sorry. I guess I should have
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told you earlier, District 20 rep. And I've been
in the coal mines since 1975. I started in low
coal in West Virginia, and I've worked at the Jim
Waller Resources from 1980 until about two years
ago when I got this job. I guess I should explain
my background. I've been a mechanic electrician
probably all except two years of that time, so I
know a little bit about the mechanics and how --
MS. McCONNELL: Do you have any
experience actually working on a continuous miner
with the PDS?
MR. BLANKENSHIP: No, ma'am. That was
implemented after I got out. I was outside as a
mechanic, so I didn't work on any of those miners.
MS. McCONNELL: In your current
position, though, have you seen it operated?
MR. BLANKENSHIP: No, ma'am, I have not.
All I've done is read about it. I would love to
have go underground and watch it. I've read about
it and talked to some of the workers underground
at Jim Waller before about it, whether they like
it, if they feel safe. But I will say this, they
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still respect the red zone just like unsupported
top, you know. They still respect the roof bolts.
And they don't go out and from under the roof
bolts. They put -- if they got a TRS on a roof
bolt, that don't mean they're going to walk out
from under it, because it's sitting there. I mean
that's just extra protection for them.
One other thing I'd like to talk about,
if you don't mind, is reflective material on
clothing. I want to tell you a little story to
start with. When I first went into coal mines in
low coal 36 inches. That was a long time ago. I
wasn't as big around.
My job was to clean off the tail piece.
We didn't have feeders. I'd been at the mines
three or four months. And I thought I had it
figured out. I can get over there and clean right
quick and get back before the shuttle car come
back. I had to count it. Well, I didn't count
good enough one day and I started to turn around
and there was a shuttle car right here this close
to me. And the only reason he stopped before he
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run me over with that tail piece, he saw my light
flickering against the top. He didn't see me
because I had no reflective clothing on back in
'75. It was in low coal. He got off and the
older gentleman literally chewed me up one side
and down the other. After about 10 minutes, I
took a you know what chewing. If he hadn't saw my
light flickering on the top I wouldn't be here
sitting here today. Reflective clothing works. I
didn't realize just how much it did work until Jim
Waller before.
I was president of the local for years.
I went to the owl (phonetic) shift one night to
talk to them. You come down a little hill and
level out. And my headlights hit the owl shift
group and that group of men and women stood out so
much, it was amazing how well you could see those
men and women. So outside it was that good, so
you can imagine what it is underground. I've got
some pictures if I can pass them out to you.
MS. McCONNELL: Sure.
MR. BLANKENSHIP: Those are pictures of
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miners underground with reflective clothing on.
You can see how well and how visible they are.
These are pictures of areas where there's no
reflective clothing. You can imagine trying to
see a miner with no reflective clothing in these
areas. But if you look through here, you can see
that's probably 200 feet away. You can see how
well you can notice those miners. If he didn't
have -- if he was up in here, you couldn't see
him. This is where he was at, up in here.
Without reflective clothing you couldn't see him.
That's how well it is. That's how bad the
visibility is underground.
You know, first, I was kind of thinking
that, you know, management would find a way to use
it against a worker, but I realized it was the
best thing for a worker to have.
MS. McCONNELL: You're speaking still on
clothing.
MR. BLANKENSHIP: Reflective clothing,
yes, ma'am, because of what happened to me. The
equipment nowadays is bigger, it takes up more
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room underground, and the miner needs to be
visible. They need reflection on their arms,
their legs, chest, and back, still on the hard hat
as we got nowadays, you know, six inches sides and
back, that needs to stay there. But they need to
add it and make sure the arms -- we can see the
arms, chest, back, and legs, front and back, so
that if you're going away or facing somebody or
standing sideways you can be seen by those shuttle
cars, ram cars, scoops, everything underground.
MS. McCONNELL: And from these photos, I
see that these are strips of reflective material
that can be put on an individual's clothing.
MR. BLANKENSHIP: There's two ways: You
can buy the clothing that comes on already and you
can rent clothing with reflective material on them
or you can actually buy them. I bought my own
coveralls. They're pennies more than regular
coveralls or you can rent them through services
that most operations have and they're just a few
pennies more that way, too. Or you can buy the
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you've got at home. You can buy big rolls of it.
It comes in about three, four, five inches by the
strip, whatever you want to get. It definitely
makes you visible, as you saw in the photos.
Without it, you know, all you've got is a little
light and you don't see the light all the time.
That's something that we definitely need. And
even -- I've been outside the job the last few
years at number 4 on the evening shift. And even
outside, it got dark. I was outside. I worked on
underground equipment, but I was working right
outside the diesel shop. And then your forklift
operators, the dozer operators, truck operators,
they all had different equipment, they all had
reflective clothing, you could see them. They
could see each other. When they was out looking
at their equipment you see that they were out
there, so you didn't get run over them.
The forklift operator could see his
helper after dark. He didn't have to wonder where
he was at, the lights reflected off him real well.
So it's not just an underground thing. It's a
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surface thing, also. Definitely let you know
where your buddy is, so you can look out for him
and he can look out for you. You're not wondering
where he's at in the dark.
That's about all I had to say. If
there's any questions I'll be glad to try to
answer them for you or get the answer if I don't
know the answer.
MS. McCONNELL: I don't have any further
questions, but I'd like to thank you for your
presentation as well as the exhibits you provided
us on reflective clothing. At this time, to my
right, any questions? And to my left, any
questions? Thank you again and I appreciate you
coming forward, too.
MR. BLANKENSHIP: I appreciate you all
coming to Alabama, because it means a lot for you
all to come down here and let us have a chance to
voice our opinions on what we think about safety.
MS. McCONNELL: It's good for us, too.
It's good both ways.
MR. BLANKENSHIP: Thank you.
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MS. McCONNELL: So that was our last
signed speaker. Anyone else want to come on down
share experiences, comments on proximity, or any
other of the proposed requirements that we have?
Come on down.
MR. SISCO: My name is Ruble Sisco, R-U-
B-L-E, S-I-S-C-O. I work at Oak Grove mine, been
there eight years -- seven years as a maintenance
worker.
MS. McCONNELL: Is that your current
position?
MR. SISCO: Yes, ma'am. We had two
miners with the PDS system on and one of them is
JOY, the other one is CAT. We have one JOY miner
with the Generation 2 system on it. You're going
to have problems out of any type of electrical
component you put on the machine that takes that
type of beating. My question is, is when we go to
put them on the equipment that moves a little
faster, and we've had it happen, I mean, every
coal mine has hills and valleys in it, if the
brakes on that machine lock down it may present
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more of a danger than it does a safety feature.
MS. McCONNELL: So right now we have
proposed that the system should make the machine
stop. Are you suggesting that we should also
consider making the machine slow down before
coming to a full stop?
MR. SISCO: Yes, ma'am. Right now if
you shut the pump off on a shuttle car, the brakes
will lock down.
MS. McCONNELL: Okay.
MR. SISCO: And if they lock down it has
the potential to slide and that might present more
of a hazard than the safety feature.
MS. McCONNELL: Do you have any diesel
equipment that you work on?
MR. SISCO: Not with any of that on it,
no, ma'am.
MS. McCONNELL: Could you talk a little
about your experiences with continuous -- on the
continuous mine Gen 2. Do you have any issues or
problems associated with it?
MR. SISCO: The Gen 2, I mean, you're
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going to have problems with anything. That miner
take a beating. You're going to beat the
controls, you're going to beat the wires on it,
you're going to have problems with anything. We
have a lot of sensors go out, maybe it's because
of the conditions you run in. The Gen 2, we have
a lot of problems with the way the connections are
made on it. It is an IS system. Sometimes you --
and I know it's a safety thing, but sometimes you
can get parts from the manufacturer that you
cannot plug in. I don't know what those cables
cost, it really don't matter. But that's money
that, you know, you're not going to get back.
Most of this stuff is man-caused when that
equipment fails from that equipment taking a
beating. That's the best thing you can say about
it.
MS. McCONNELL: So have you seen -- have
you witnessed how the proximity detection works
when the miner is actually -- the continuous
mining machine is actually cutting coal and being
transited?
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MR. SISCO: Yes, ma'am.
MS. McCONNELL: And how does it work
when it's in operation?
MR. SISCO: That machine has got a safe
zone around it. I forget what the settings are,
but whenever you start the cutter head your safe
zone shrinks in, not dramatically, but a little
bit, so you can actually watch the ripper end to
see what you're doing. It operates pretty well.
I mean, the man that needs to see the head can see
it.
MS. McCONNELL: You means in term of
protecting the miner?
MR. SISCO: Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am.
Now, the problem that I do have with the proximity
on that a miner is if, like I say, anything can
malfunction. If a man gets caught, even with
proximity on that miner, say something happens and
a miner gets on it and the proximity goes out at
that time, I know it's a hypothetical, on a JOY
miner you hit three buttons on that remote and get
it off of him. And I don't know if it's because
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of the system we have or what. On a CAT miner you
cannot do that. It will take you 15 minutes to
get it off of him.
MS. McCONNELL: I see. So you're
talking about a way of kind of defeating the
proximity detection, or overriding the system --
MR. SISCO: On the JOY miner it
overrides, but the only thing you can do is tram
it and load it, you know, just to get it off of
somebody if something like that happened. Now,
the CAT miner you have to go get a transmission,
take the panels off where you get to it, hook it
up, it's going to take you 10 or 15 minutes to get
it off that miner. As far as just the operation,
though, what you're wanting to know, it operates
fairly well. I mean, it's not something that
causes a big complaint out of the men or anybody
else because we've had it for probably a year and
a half now on the Generation 1, not the Generation
2. It's probably been underground six months.
MS. McCONNELL: Have you seen any mobile
equipment that so far is equipped with PDS?
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MR. SISCO: No, ma'am. No, ma'am. We
have a -- we actually do have a roof bolter. And
I forget which one that's got on it, but we don't
use it right now.
MS. McCONNELL: That has PDS on it, but
it's not being used.
MR. SISCO: Yes, ma'am, it's not being
used right now.
MS. McCONNELL: Okay. This has been
interesting. Do you have any questions? Okay.
Rodney is asking whether or not you could tell us
why the roof bolter with proximity is not being
used.
MR. SISCO: It's on a section in Oak
Grove we have a (inaudible) right now (inaudible).
And we have to have a bolter that will roll out
and support the sides while we -- the ribs while
we position it, so that's why -- that bolter don't
that capability.
MS. McCONNELL: In your capacity as --
in maintenance, you brought up a very good point
about fast- moving machines and the issue with the
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brakes when you stop a machine going that fast,
quickly, and that maybe considering having
machines slow down first. Are there any other
functionality issues we should think about once
the proximity machine system is placed on these
type of machines?
MR. SISCO: When I first come in I heard
that at one time scoops -- and Mr. Blankenship may
be able to answer this, I don't know, but at one
time, when you hit a panic bar on a scoop or
something like that, it didn't actually shut the
pump off. It just made it where -- that's how the
hydraulic function's off, but you could still
manipulate it.
MR. BLANKENSHIP: I think so.
MR. SISCO: That may be something that
we want to think about when we go to put them on
scoops, also.
MS. McCONNELL: Okay. Oh, I don't have
any further questions, but thank you for coming.
Do you have any other issues you'd like to bring
to our attention?
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MR. SISCO: No, ma'am.
MS. McCONNELL: Well, I appreciate you
coming down. This has been interesting.
Good morning.
MR. HAYFORD: My name is Nick Hayford.
That's N-I-C-K, the last name is H-A-Y-F as in
Frank, O- R-D. I work for Matrix Design Group,
which is one of the companies that manufactures
the proximity system, and I just wanted to address
a couple of questions I've heard you ask other
people. You've asked about diesel equipment and
has anybody seen it on diesel equipment. We do
have our system currently --
MS. McCONNELL: And maybe if you could
talk about the Matrix proximity detection system
and if there are anticipated challenges equipping
a diesel machine with PDS.
MR. HAYFORD: So, so far, we have
roughly I believe about 10 machines with diesel --
diesel machines with proximity detection on it.
Most of those machines are going to be up in
Canada in potash mines. And we have not had --
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outside of integration issues as far as controls
are concerned and how we stop things and how we
warn and slow down the machine itself, the system
functions very well on diesel equipment, quite a
bit faster than what you see at most underground
coal mines.
MS. McCONNELL: Is there any experience
with brake failure or fatigue based on stopping?
MR. HAYFORD: We haven't seen that yet.
We've had one machine in the field for just over a
year running and the other machines have been
about six months running, and I have not been told
of any brake failure issues.
MS. McCONNELL: How long would it take
for that to actually occur, a brake failure?
MR. HAYFORD: That's not something I
would have the knowledge to answer that question.
MS. McCONNELL: I mean, I guess is six
months sufficient time or a year sufficient time?
Could the machine brakes fail -- because that's
what I'm getting at--
MR. HAYFORD: Yeah, and I'm not sure of
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that. That would be something that each
manufacturer of the equipment itself would have to
answer, what the brake wear would be. The way
that we work with diesel equipment is we slow the
equipment down before we engage a red stop zone.
We limit -- I know on one piece of equipment --
MS. McCONNELL: And so how -- what does
that slow? When you're talking about slow the
equipment down, what does that mean? Could you
describe what slowing down means?
MR. HAYFORD: Okay. So let's say we
have a zone that roughly 30 feet out in front of
the piece of equipment as it's traveling forward.
If someone gets into that 30-foot out zone, I know
on one piece of equipment we go from about 8 miles
an hour down to about 2 miles an hour, which is
much slower. That gives a guy time to get out of
the way of a piece of equipment or gives the time
-- time for the machine to slow itself down before
you apply brakes and that way you're not flinging
the operator and the piece of equipment all over
the place.
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MS. McCONNELL: Are there warning
signals going on as the machine is being slowed
down?
MR. HAYFORD: Yes, both on the operator
of the machine, the person who is in the way, and
on the machine itself.
MS. McCONNELL: Okay. Say that -- on
the machine, the operator, and the miner?
MR. HAYFORD: And the person in the way,
yes.
MS. McCONNELL: So what do you mean by
the operator is being warned then if it acts
differently than what the machine is emanating?
MR. HAYFORD: So the machine -- we can
equip machines with a display that tells the
operator what direction a locator or a personal
wearable device is triggering a zone, kind of a
circular pie chart. It gives the direction of
where that locator is breaching a certain zone.
So that's one way that the operator is warned and
that's inside the cab and the operator can see
that pretty easily.
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Also, the machine-mounted components
would be flashing lights letting the operator and
anyone around the area know. The locator that the
operator is wearing or the personal wearable
device that the operator is wearing is going to
beeping, telling him that someone is in the zone
and also flashing a light.
MS. McCONNELL: So does that operator
have a different locator than what the miner would
be wearing? Because it doesn't obviously stop the
machine if he's on the equipment.
MR. HAYFORD: He triggers himself as the
operator of that machine with a very simple button
press and let's that piece of equipment know that
he is the operator and he has a zone that he can
be in to operate that piece of equipment.
MS. McCONNELL: Are all locators given
that functionality or is it just unique to that
one the machine operator --
MR. HAYFORD: It is unique to that
locator when the button press has been made, but
any locator could make that button press if
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there's not already an operator of the machine.
MS. McCONNELL: Okay. I'm sorry, I was
asking -- I didn't mean to interrupt.
MR. HAYFORD: No, you're fine. So we
have about 10 diesel machines and we don't see a
lot of issues with them. The conditions are a
little bit different than current coal mining here
in the U.S., but we don't foresee any issues with
--
MS. McCONNELL: What would be the
difference in terms of conditions?
MR. HAYFORD: You're not in coal.
MS. McCONNELL: Oh, these are not
underground coal mines that are in Canada.
MR. HAYFORD: Yeah, they're underground
potash mines, so the conditions are a little bit
different. As far as in coal mines, we do have
haulage equipment running at a couple of different
mines. We have articulating pieces of equipment,
like a ram car. We also have machines that don't
articulate, like shuttle cars, that are running
without too many major issues. Obviously, it's a
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new technology on a different piece of equipment,
so we have worked through some issues we've seen
in the past.
MS. McCONNELL: So in this environment
where you have your ram cars or shuttle cars
equipped, you also are working in a working
section where the continuous miner is also
equipped?
MR. HAYFORD: Yes.
MS. McCONNELL: Have you seen any issues
associated with multiple machines with PDS in a
close working -- in a working section or a closed
environment?
MR. HAYFORD: We have not so far. What
we do with our system is each of the systems
communicate with one another, and so they know --
MS. McCONNELL: So the machine mounted
components talk to one another?
MR. HAYFORD: Not the machine-mounted
components, but the entire system itself.
MS. McCONNELL: Okay. Describe what
that means.
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MR. HAYFORD: So we have a controller
and then we have -- which is the main component
that controls everything, then we have the main
components that most people will see mounted on
the machine that have lights inside of them that
flash and also some other components inside of
them, so that's your main system. So the
controllers from one machine will talk to another
machine. And they'll let each other know who's my
operator and where is he currently located around
system number 1. So system number 2 will say,
okay, so your guy is located in this zone that
you've deemed is safe. I can drive up and get
close and he can be inside of a safe zone that's
designed for machine number 2 as well.
MS. McCONNELL: So in this communication
between those controllers it's changing the zone
automatically?
MR. HAYFORD: Yes, automatically.
MS. McCONNELL: So then the miner
itself, as he needed, unaware to him that the
zones are changing as he's working and moving
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around these machines?
MR. HAYFORD: He is trained to know what
those zones -- when those zones would be changing.
MS. McCONNELL: Okay. Could you tell me
how he would know that if the machines are talking
to one another in terms of --
MR. HAYFORD: He would know that --
okay, so if a shuttle car comes up while I'm
loading, I'm going to be in my normal safe zone,
but the second machine, the shuttle car, is also
going to have a safe zone that I can stand in.
And if I get outside of that have safe zone that's
preprogrammed, then I will shut down the shuttle
car as well.
MS. McCONNELL: Okay. I'm sorry.
MR. HAYFORD: No, you're fine. I do
have a video that kind of shows that if you would
like to see that. I can plug it into your
computer.
MS. McCONNELL: It's not mine.
MR. HAYFORD: Or whoever's computer that
is.
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MS. McCONNELL: It is theirs so I only
say that hesitantly because I'm not quite sure how
it would work, but you're welcome to try.
MR. HAYFORD: I'll try it out real
quick.
MS. McCONNELL: Okay. Good luck.
MR. HAYFORD: Any other questions? Oh,
something I was going to address. I heard a
couple people talk about a Generation 3 system
from Matrix.
MS. McCONNELL: That's what we heard.
MR. HAYFORD: And that's news to me as
well.
MS. McCONNELL: It's news to us. I --
MR. HAYFORD: As far as I know, we're
obviously always working to improve our systems
and there's always going to be something new
coming out eventually, but we currently do not
have any release plans for a Generation 3 system
any time in the near future, so.
MS. TOLER: Could you estimate how long
it takes for a machine operator to learn -- I
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mean, how many training hours are required?
MR. HAYFORD: We do -- whenever we do a
training for a continuous miner operator, we spend
roughly one shift working with them on the section
where that machine is installed at. So we come
in, we'll work for three shifts with someone, with
different operators, while they're doing their
normal duties and work with them for about
approximately one shift and space that out over
how many different operators they have on that
piece of equipment.
MS. McCONNELL: Do you want to take
questions or do you want to stay in front because
we have a series of questions on my left and my
right?
MR. HAYFORD: Mainly, I want to show you
guys what this zone interaction looks like. This
is a promo video, so bear with me for a second
here. It shows it on a continuous miner, shows it
on a shuttle car there with the locator there that
the guy what would wear. I think this video shows
what I'm hoping it does.
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So as you can see, here's the shutdown
zone on the miner roughly. As the shuttle car
comes in here, we get an operator zone where that
operator can stand and the shuttle car can still
pull in without any issues. We can do the same
thing with the ram car as well. Let's see if I
can go back a little further and catch that
actually animation of that guy coming in. So as
that operator comes in, he's got a safe area that
he can be in, and as he steps out of it, the zones
change back to what they were before.
MS. McCONNELL: And so those green
blinking lights, what do they represent?
MR. HAYFORD: That he was in a safe
area.
MS. McCONNELL: That were emanating from
the machine?
MR. HAYFORD: Yes, that he is standing
-- that there's no one inside a warning or a red
zone.
MS. McCONNELL: Is that the part of the
controllers talking to one another?
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MR. HAYFORD: Yes. And that's also part
of the communication to the operator as well. So
if look at this, as he backs up, it goes into a
warning with the yellow flashing light and then a
red flashing light once he gets into the red zone.
He backs out, has to re-enable his tram, but
doesn't shut down any pump or anything, and he can
go right back to operating like normal.
This will show how we can also do speed-
based zones, so as you go faster, the zone extends
out in front. And our system obviously works
through curtains and everything. That will show
that -- this is the little display I was talking
about, so this display in the bottom corner would
be mounted inside the cab, and it will show -- you
can see there's a red slice that will show what
direction the locator that breached -- the shuttle
car zone is in and let at the operator of the
shuttle car know where the person was standing who
breaches the red zone.
MS. McCONNELL: Based on speed, do the
zones change?
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MR. HAYFORD: They get longer --
MS. McCONNELL: Fluctuate longer?
MR. HAYFORD: -- or shorter as speed
increases.
MS. McCONNELL: All right. Who wants to
go first? Do you want to go first, Rodney? And,
go ahead.
MR. SHUMAKER: You had mentioned about
the diesel equipment and the experience you have
with PDS on the equipment.
MR. HAYFORD: Yes.
MR. SHUMAKER: Can you tell us how the
equipment is being slowed down by the PDS
currently?
MR. HAYFORD: We slow it down two ways.
The first way is that we apply some brake pressure
and the second way is we control the throttle on
the engine and using the transmission as basically
a transmission brake by limiting the throttle.
MR. SHUMAKER: How many types of pieces
of diesel equipment that you're actually
implementing the PDS on currently?
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MR. HAYFORD: We have two types. We
have a shuttle car style of equipment and also
this piece of 40-year-old equipment that's
basically a giant ram car. It's about almost 40
feet long, about 11 feet wide, and about 10 feet
tall up in Canada. It's called a Wagner Teletram.
They don't even make it anymore.
MS. McCONNELL: Have you tried anything
on the continuous hauler systems?
MR. HAYFORD: We have not at this time,
as far as I know, tried anything on continuous
haulage, actual implementation. And it's
something we've always looked into, but have not
actually done any installations.
MS. McCONNELL: Okay.
MR. SHUMAKER: Can you speak on any
difficulties that you've had with implementing
your PDS on the diesel equipment with slowdown
functions?
MR. HAYFORD: Most of the slowdown
function issues that we've had have been in
development of getting the system installed,
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talking between the two, our system and the
control system for the diesel motor. We solve
those all before it goes out of the rebuild
facility that it's at.
MS. McCONNELL: Is there a fail-safe
measure in terms of if the slowdown -- I mean, in
the sense that the slowdown wasn't -- I mean, the
fail safe would be allowed that if the miner's
still in a slowdown zone, that the machine somehow
is automatically brakes or braking before it
stops.
MR. HAYFORD: So you're saying like
we're driving towards a person, he gets in the
slowdown zone --
MS. McCONNELL: And the machine is still
slowing down, but is there a fail safe that have
stops it before it hits the miner?
MR. HAYFORD: Yes. So no matter what,
you're going to have a two sets of zones. You
have a slow down zone that's a certain distance
out, but you're also going to have a shut down
zone. So even if you're in that slowdown zone,
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depending on the speed, once you get to the
shutdown zone the machine would automatically
brake itself and stop.
MS. McCONNELL: So the shutdown zone
kicks in because of the locator on the miner?
MR. HAYFORD: Yes, the locator on the
miner, yes.
MS. McCONNELL: Okay. I'm sorry for
interrupting.
MR. SHUMAKER: And moving forward toward
the future as far as receiving other equipment,
other manufacture's diesel equipment, can you
see that there would be a need to look at other
ways to slow down diesel equipment?
MR. HAYFORD: From my experience so far,
limiting throttle and braking have been -- we've
done air brakes and hydraulic brakes and haven't
seen any issues with those, with slow down or shut
down on those machines.
MR. SHUMAKER: Thank you.
MR. HAYFORD: No problem.
MR. ADAMSON: I've got a few questions
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regarding the diesel equipment.
MR. HAYFORD: Okay.
MR. ADAMSON: What kind of slopes is the
Canadian equipment operating on?
MR. HAYFORD: That's a hard -- I would
consider it to be a slight slope. I would say
less than 15 degrees, maybe 10 to 15 degrees has
been the most I've seen as far as slope-wise.
That was another thing I wanted to address as
well. Whoever spoke right before me --
MS. McCONNELL: Mr. Blankenship.
MR. HAYFORD: Not Blankenship, but the
guy right after him. I think Sisco was his last
name. Sisco, is that right?
I think I've actually talked to Sisco
over at Oak Grove before and we talked about the
issue where you're going -- let's say you're going
downhill and you get to a shutdown zone and it
starts sliding. It's just really hard to control
that type of situation. With our system, let's
say you did get stopped enough, once you put it
into reverse to go away from that person, that
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zone in the back shrinks down and allows you to
still pull away from that person. So we monitor
zones forward and reverse, so if somebody's behind
you and you're going forward, we're not worried
about them because you're going away from them.
And if somebody's front of you and you're going in
reverse, we're not as worried about them. We
still have a red zone to protect them, but we can
pull away without them moving themselves in most
circumstances.
MR. ADAMSON: I was wondering what the
load conditions you account for.
MR. HAYFORD: As far as fully loaded,
unloaded, from the testing that we've done, the
longest distance it takes for most shuttle cars to
completely stop is fully unloaded on most
circumstances. It would -- you'd expect it to be
the opposite of that, but a fully unloaded machine
tends to skip on the surface which makes it slow
down not as quickly as a fully loaded machine.
The extra weight of a fully loaded machine kind of
gives it more friction to slow down quicker.
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Whenever we set up our zones the Matrix system is
fully customizable through programming that
enables us to adjust the zones on the fly. So I
can get on my computer with the right passwords
and the right software and adjust those zones as
we're doing setup. And, okay, it didn't stop
quite soon enough, let's make that zone a little
bit bigger; or it stopped way too far away, let's
make that zone a little bit smaller.
MR. ADAMSON: Continuing on with that, I
guess, I was wondering what kind of trials or as
you were setting up that equipment in Canada, what
did you go through? Is that something you did
onsite?
MR. HAYFORD: Yes, we do almost all of
-- once the machine's been installed and gets
underground, we ask, especially on a first machine
of a type or a first machine from manufacturer, we
ask to have roughly a day, one or two days, where
we can come in, make sure all the zones are set up
before it goes into production. Once -- and we'll
spend a whole day just making sure that the zones
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function properly, making sure that the braking
functions properly, making sure that the slowdown
functions properly, all before we release that
piece of equipment to go into the production.
MS. McCONNELL: But in any mine, I
imagine that over time those zones will need to be
changed because the working section has --
dimensions have changed and maybe equipment. How
easy is it for an operator or the miners to
readjust those zones? Is that something that
would require the manufacturer to come in and do?
MR. HAYFORD: We have two options that
we work with customers depending on how they would
like to proceed. One, they can call Matrix. We
can come in and make some zone adjustments for
them. Two, we can sell them a kit and training
where we will train specified people on how to
make zone changes using a computer that we provide
to them.
MS. McCONNELL: Have you experience in
the use of that training material or that kit used
by operators and miners in terms of ease or
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difficulty applying changing zones?
MR. HAYFORD: So we work mainly with the
maintenance department to do that. That way an
operator --
MS. McCONNELL: Is there a steep
learning curve?
MR. HAYFORD: We haven't really seen a
steep learning curve with it. Most of the people
that we've trained so far are people we've worked
with before, doing other training with them.
They've worked with Generation 1, they've worked
with the Generation 2 hands- on before we give
them the kit. And a lot of times look over our
shoulders as we've been making changes for it.
But the troubleshooting kit is what we call it, or
a service kit as we call it, was designed so that
it doesn't have a steep learning curve. It comes
with a manual that tells you how to do everything
you can do and it only allows certain functions to
be changed, so that someone couldn't mess up the
whole system, get it all messed up so that it
doesn't work anymore.
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MR. ADAMSON: Back to your Canadian
machines, I was just wondering what the road
conditions -- kind of what --
MR. HAYFORD: Their roads are generally
a lot more compacted in what we see in underground
coal mining. It's there where they mine, they
have very hard rock underneath without much water
or what they would call muck and mud on them so
they're a lot drier, a lot harder of a surface,
almost like a concrete. Sometimes it's very
easily confused where they've poured concrete and
where they haven't poured concrete. We found in
our testing that that makes machines take longer
to stop on a hard surface than at this time does
on a wet, mucky surface.
MS. McCONNELL: Actually, when I was
thinking about -- I was wondering does that affect
slowdown of the machine in any way in terms of
hindering it or, you know, making it slide, I
mean?
MR. HAYFORD: Obviously, on a steep
angle that's going to make it want to slide more.
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MS. McCONNELL: So how does the system
adjust that in those kinds of conditions?
MR. HAYFORD: That would be a situation
where the operator of the mine, the maintenance --
someone in maintenance would need to come in and
say our conditions have changed, we need to make
sure that our zones function properly, and make
changes to those zones.
MS. McCONNELL: You couldn't do it with
the kit?
MR. HAYFORD: Yes, you could do it with
the kit, yes. But someone would have to say, hey,
our conditions have changed enough that the zones
that we've previously been using need to be
adjusted.
MR. ADAMSON: One last one, if you've
got a minute. For installing your system, and I
guess I'm really thinking about diesel equipment,
what kind of additional controls have you had to
add anything to the equipment? What kind of --
MR. HAYFORD: Some older pieces of
equipment have had to have controls added to them,
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and also, there's been some -- obviously some
valves would need to be installed if you're
talking about shutting down hydraulics. Certain
hydraulics you have to add valves that can be
triggered by our system. That's not something
that is difficult, it's just something that would
need to be added to that.
MR. ADAMSON: And all this equipment is
not permissible that you've been adding, for the
diesel side.
MR. HAYFORD: The diesel equipment in
Canadian mines is not permissible for MSHA. Our
system and the way we install it is the same as
what we would do -- we sell the same equipment as
we do to the coal mines here (inaudible).
MR. ADAMSON: Okay.
MS. McCONNELL: Okay. I was wondering,
take Canada, does it have a similar type of
approval process that MSHA has?
MR. HAYFORD: Canadian approvals are a
little bit different. They don't have -- their
mines aren't gassy like our mines are here.
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They're about 3,500 feet underground, so they
don't run into gas like we do.
MR. SHUMAKER: Just two additional
comments and/or questions. Can you speak on your
recommendation that we spoke on earlier about
whether or not PDS should integrate with, you
know, the equipment and how it's throttled or
braked and slowed down prior to stopping?
MR. HAYFORD: I personally, just from
what I've seen in the time I've worked with Matrix
for about the last six years or so working on the
system, think that there's more -- and from
talking to other coal miners who have been in the
industry for longer times, I think there's more
risk at -- with mobile equipment as oppose to
continuous miners for people to get injured. So I
definitely support moving forward with some type
of regulation on mobile equipment.
MR. SHUMAKER: More specifically on
slowing down the equipment versus just stopping
the equipment?
MR. HAYFORD: I think slowing down is
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very important for two reasons. One -- I guess
for a couple of reasons. One, it's not as hard on
the piece of equipment you're trying to slow down,
so you limit some of your maintenance issues that
you might see: The brakes going bad, just
generally tearing up a piece of equipment, so
you're not constantly just slamming on the brakes,
trying to stop. I think it's safer for the
operator of the piece of equipment. Because let's
say you're going full board and somebody comes out
in front of you and you stop, that's going to
fling that operator and possibly hurt him instead
of hurting the guy he would run over. Three, I
think it's better for production slowing down a
piece of equipment as opposed to stopping and
shutting down a pump on it takes less time for the
piece of equipment to get back up and running and
continue on its way.
MR. SHUMAKER: So currently, ultimately,
when you stop a piece of equipment, how are you
doing that, with electrical or diesel equipment?
MR. HAYFORD: With both of those we
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mainly just shut down or we apply full brake and
get the machines stopped all the way. Once the
red zone is cleared, then we release those brakes
and the piece of equipment is able to move on from
there. On a continuous miner, for example, which
doesn't have a brake technically, we kill tram and
prevent the tram from being activated again.
MR. SHUMAKER: Lastly, can you share any
experience that you've actually had with multiple
equipment in mines in general and, more
specifically, in coal mines such as PDS-installed
equipment on continuous mine machines and coal
haulage equipment.
MR. HAYFORD: So I have seen -- I've
spent a lot of time working with coal miner -- or
with continuous minors and haulage equipment,
specifically shuttle cars. At some of the mines
up in Eastern Kentucky -- or, sorry, Western
Kentucky and Indiana and Illinois. That's where
most of my experience had been before I moved down
to Birmingham. And I've seen the systems work
together, not have many issues, especially here
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within the last six months or so. There's always
going to be a learned curve installing a new
system on a new piece of equipment. It's going to
take a little bit of time.
MS. McCONNELL: So you have experience
with continuous mining machines with PDS and
shuttle car with PDS working together. And, I
guess, what experience have you seen, if any, in
terms of false stops, you know. The machine is
activated --the PDS activated incorrectly and the
equipment had stopped even without interaction
with a miner?
MR. HAYFORD: What we've seen a lot of
is not so many false shutdowns, is more, well,
that's not the way I've always been able to do, I
can't just run up full speed and stop right as I
get up to continuous miner. I have to take some
time slowing in to that continuous miner while I'm
in my shuttle car, and a lot of guys don't like
that. They want to be able to run full bore in
and full bore out. A little bit of changes in the
way that people do things.
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MS. McCONNELL: So you mentioned --
well, let's just imagine that there is a
Generation 3. And if you were going to project
what technological changes would be made to the
system in terms of miner-wearable component as
well as machine-mounted component, can you imagine
a PDS system operating in an underground
environment where no guidance is required?
MR. HAYFORD: Definitely not using
current technologies. I think we can make those
PDS's smaller. I think that's the future goal
system making them smaller and trying to
incorporate them with other pieces of equipment
that the miners are already wearing: Cap lamps,
radios, things like that.
MS. McCONNELL: Any chance there could
ever be a universal locator in terms of being able
to operate with any type of equipment, with any
type of PDS?
MR. HAYFORD: I would doubt it just
because of intellectual property and people not
wanting to share. That's just my opinion, but I
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think it would take a lot.
MS. McCONNELL: That's all.
MR. HAYFORD: That's all? Well, thank
you guys very much. Did you have a question? I'm
sorry.
MS. TOLER: Just for the record, I'm
going to need a copy of that video.
MR. HAYFORD: Okay. All right. Thank
you, guys.
MS. McCONNELL: Okay, thank you.
MR. SHUMAKER: Thank you.
MS. McCONNELL: Is there anyone else who
would like to talk, share experiences? No one?
If I took a break would somebody change their mind
if we came back 20 minutes, 30 minutes later,
somebody could think about it.
MR. BLANKENSHIP: I will now before you
take a break.
MS. McCONNELL: Okay, come on. Come on
back. Let at the court reporter --
MR. BLANKENSHIP: James Blankenship,
B-L- A-N-K-E-N-S-H-I-P. I want you think about
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one thing. I agree with the slowing down part,
especially on the sections, but when you're in an
outby area in a confined location you need to
really look closely about slowing down, it
probably won't help that individual. We need to
look at some way to make it -- if we're going to
slow it down, it's got to slow down quickly. It
might not come to a complete sudden stop, but we
can't let it slow down because that might -- you
don't have that room in a belt line. You don't
have that room in a belt line where it's a
confined area.
MS. McCONNELL: I hear you. And I guess
the other way of thinking about is what way can we
stop the machine without causing brake fatigue? I
just said that out loud. You don't have to answer
the question.
MR. BLANKENSHIP: Here's what I was
thinking about as I was sitting back there while
they was talking. I mean, how many times a day is
that machine going to be -- that brake's going to
be locked down? One time a day or one time a
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week? The brake fatigue's not going to be that
great. I mean, you have to check -- Ms. Wilkins
(phonetic) says you have to check that panic bar
on that machine once a week, which means run it
down the entry, hit the panic bar and make sure it
stops within five seconds. It doesn't tear the
brakes up. That's what you have to do putting --
it doesn't tear the brakes up. I don't think that
that's going to tear the brakes up either because
it's not going to be like it's every 15 minutes
somebody's walking across in front of it and the
brakes are locking up. Slowing down, I've got no
problems with that. Just consider the confined
areas on the belt line and areas like that, you
don't have the room for it to slow down. The
worker's still going to get mashed. It might not
be as severe, but he's still going to get smashed.
I'm just asking you to think about that part of
it. All right.
MS. McCONNELL: Thank you.
MR. BLANKENSHIP: Thank you.
MS. McCONNELL: Anybody else? I'm going
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to give you guys 30 more minutes to think about
it. We're going to take a 30-minute break, come
back, and if there's no one else who wishes to
speak, then I'll close the hearing down. Somebody
may change their mind, so let's take a 30-minute.
(Whereupon, a brief recess was
taken in the proceedings.)
MS. McCONNELL: Gentlemen, please take
your seats and I'll ask if there are any other
individuals who would like to come forward and
share their experiences or information regarding
this proposed rule. Anyone else who has
concluding thoughts that they want to share?
Well, if there is no one who wishes to
make a presentation I will conclude this hearing.
I want to thank everyone, and I sincerely say
this, I thought this was a very excellent hearing.
We learned a lot and heard a lot, we all did, the
panel. So I thank you all for anyone who came and
spoke to us.
For those who did not, please feel free
or I encourage you to submit your comments and
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consult the addresses section in the proposed rule
on how you can submit written comments. I thank
all those who did not present, but came and
listened. That was greatly appreciated.
I again want to emphasize that all
comments must be received by or postmarked by
December 1st, 2015. MSHA will take your comments
and your concerns into consideration in developing
the agency's final rule, and I encourage all of
you to continue to participate throughout the
rulemaking process. And I again want to remind
everyone that we are having our next public
hearing on this proposed rule at 8:00 on October
19th in West Virginia, Beckley or Beaver, West
Virginia, depending on -- I'm used to saying
Beckley I've gotten used to saying Beaver lately.
But at the academy on the 19th, MSHA's academy on
the 19th, in the morning we will have a public
hearing on the proposed rule. And in the
afternoon we will have a stakeholders meeting to
talk about some critical issues related to refuge
alternatives.
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With that, I thank you again. This
public hearing is concluded.
(Whereupon, at 11:25 a.m., the
HEARING was adjourned.)
* * * * *
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CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC
COMMONWEALTH OF VIRGINIA
I, Carleton J. Anderson, III, notary
public in and for the Commonwealth of Virginia, do
hereby certify that the forgoing PROCEEDING was
duly recorded and thereafter reduced to print under
my direction; that the witnesses were sworn to tell
the truth under penalty of perjury; that said
transcript is a true record of the testimony given
by witnesses; that I am neither counsel for,
related to, nor employed by any of the parties to
the action in which this proceeding was called;
and, furthermore, that I am not a relative or
employee of any attorney or counsel employed by the
parties hereto, nor financially or otherwise
interested in the outcome of this action.
(Signature and Seal on File)
Notary Public, in and for the Commonwealth of
Virginia
My Commission Expires: November 30, 2016
Notary Public Number 351998
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