View
219
Download
0
Category
Preview:
Citation preview
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 1/171
Military Police Complaints Commission
AFGHANISTAN PUBLIC INTEREST HEARINGSheld pursuant to section 250.38(1) of the National DefenceAct, in the matter of file 2008-042
LES AUDIENCES D'INTÉRÊT PUBLIQUE SUR L'AFGHANISTANtenues en vertu du paragraphe 250-38(1) de la Loi sur la
défense nationale pour le dossier 2008-042
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGSheld at 270 Albert St.
Ottawa, Ontarioon Tuesday, April 6, 2010
VOLUME 1-A
BEFORE:
Mr. Glenn Stannard Acting Chairperson
Mr. R. Berlinquette Commission Member
Ms. R. Cléroux Registrar
APPEARANCES:
Mr. R. Lunau Commission counselMs. Catherine Beaudoin
Mr. A. Préfontaine For Maj Bernie Hudson, MajMs. H. Robertson Michel Zybala, Maj Ron Gribble,Mr. V. Wirth LCol (Ret'd) William H. Garrick,Ms. E. Richards CWO Barry Watson, MWO Jean-Yves Girard, Maj John Kirschner
Mr. P. Champ For Amnesty International andMr. K. Elgazzar B.C. Civil Liberties Association
Mr. M. Wallace For Capt(N) (Ret'd) Moore, CFPM
A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. © 2010
200 Elgin Street, Suite 1105 333 Bay Street, Suite900
Ottawa, Ontario K2P 1L5 Toronto, OntarioM5H 2T4
1
2
34
56789
1011121314151617
18192021222324252627282930313233343536373839404142
434445464748495051
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 2/171
(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
12
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 3/171
(ii)
INDEX
PAGE
Opening Submissions by Mr. Champ 35
Opening Submissions by Mr. Wallace 42
Opening Submissions by Mr. Préfontaine 44
PREVIOUSLY SWORN: SGT CAROL UTTON 50
Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Lunau 50
Cross-Examination by Mr. Champ 105
Cross-Examination by Mr. Wallace 162
Cross-Examination by Ms Richards 164
123456
789
10111213141516171819
2021222324252627
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 4/171
(iii)
LIST OF EXHIBITS
NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE
P-20 Letter from Lori Bokenfohr to Alain Préfontainedated October 13th, 2009. 11
P-21 Letter from Alain Préfontaine to List of Addresseesdated July 28th, 2009. 11
P-22 Collection A, Human Rights and Related Materials,Additions (3 Volumes). 11
P-23 Collection B, Additional Federal Court Documents(3 Volumes). 11
P-24 Collection C, DND Documents (6 Volumes). 12
P-25 Collection D, Captain Moore’s Documents, (1 Volume). 12
P-26 Collection E, Colvin’s documents (1 Volume). 12
P-27 Collection F, NIS documents (6 Volumes). 12
P-28 Collection G, Notebooks (1 Volume). 12
P-29: Collection H, Documents from public open sources(1 Volume). 12
P-30 Collection I, Transcript of Major Rowcliffe(included in 2 volumes identified as Collection I to S) 12
P-31 Collection J, Transcript of Major Gribble (includedin 2volumes identified as Collections I to S) 12
P-32 Collection K, Transcript of Sergeant Utton(included in2 volumes identified as Collections I to S). 13
P-33 Collection L, Transcript of Major Hudson (includedin2 volumes identified as Collections I to S). 13
P-34 Collection M, Transcript of Major Boot (includedin2 volumes identified as Collections I to S). 13
P-35 Collection N, Transcript of Ms. Duschner (includedin
123456
789
10111213141516171819
20212223242526272829303132333435363738394041424344
45464748495051525354
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 5/171
2 volumes identified as Collections I to S). 131
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 6/171
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 7/171
Ottawa, Ontario
--- Upon commencing on Tuesday, April 6, 2010
at 10:00 a.m.
THE REGISTRAR: Ladies and
gentlemen, the Afghanistan Public Interest Hearings
held pursuant to Section 250.38(1) of the National
Defence Act in the matter of the Military Police
Complaints Commission, file 2008-042 are now in
session.
Acting Chair, Mr. Glenn Stannard,
presiding together with Commission Member, Mr. Roy
Berlinquette.
Mesdames et messieurs, les
audiences d’intérêt publique sur l’Afghanistan
tenues en vertu du paragraph 250.38(1) de la Loi
sur la défense nationale pour le dossier de la
Commission d’examen des plaintes concernant la
police militaire 2008-042 sont maintenant ouvertes.
Le président intérimaire, monsieur
Glenn Stannard préside les audiences avec le
commissaire Roy Berlinquette.
THE CHAIR: Thank you, Madam
Registrar.
Good morning and bonjour.
Once again, please allow the Panel
to introduce ourselves.
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
11234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 8/171
I am Glenn Stannard, the Acting
Chairperson of the Military Police Complaints
Commission, and my fellow Panel Member is Mr. Roy
Berlinquette, also a Member of the Military Police
Complaints Commission.
We would like to begin by thanking
all present here today.
Counsel, public observers and
members of the media for your continued interests
in the work of the Military Police Complaints
Commission.
We apologize for the delay, we had
to sort through a little bit for a court reporter,
but we are back in business.
Thank you.
Madam Registrar, thank you for
calling to order the resumption of the Public
Interest Hearing into the Military Police
Complaints Commission, file 2008-042, in relation
to a complaint by the Amnesty International and
B.C. Civil Liberties Association, dated June 12th,
2008.
The Afghanistan Public Interest
Hearings commenced on December 4th, 2008, with the
Commission panel consisting of the then Chair of
the MPCC, Mr. Peter Tinsley and Mr. Roy
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
21234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 9/171
Berlinquette.
On December 11th, 2009, I was
appointed Acting Chairperson of the Complaints
Commission, with full statutory powers of that
position.
On February 23rd, 2010, I assigned
Mr. Roy Berlinquette and myself to conduct the
Public Interest Hearing in relation to Military and
Police Complaints Commission, 2008-042.
On March 24th, 2010, we heard
three motions and arguments from the parties in
respect to those motions.
The motion for reconsideration of
the decision to name Lieutenant Colonel Retired
Garrick as a subject, the standard of conduct
applicable to the Military Police subjects, and the
motion to determine the standard of conduct
applicable to situations where it is alleged that
the Military Police subjects had the means of
knowing of a situation which they should have
investigated.
Last week, Mr. Berlinquette and I
considered these three motions, as well as the
arguments advanced by the three parties, and issued
three decisions in relation to the motions.
I trust counsel has received the
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
31234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 10/171
decisions on Thursday, April 1st, as transmitted by
the Registrar of the MPCC?
All parties have received?
---(No response/pas de réponse)
I would again request counsel
present to introduce themselves and their co-
counsel.
Let us begin with the lead
counsel, Mr. Ron Lunau.
MR. LUNAU: Thank you.
I am Ron Lunau, the lead counsel
for the Commission. With me is Ms. Catherine
Beaudoin.
THE CHAIR: Mr. Préfontaine?
MR. PRÉFONTAINE: Bonjour, Alain
Préfontaine. I am lead counsel representing the
eight subjects.
I am assisted today by Liz
Richards, to my left, behind me to the left is
Commander Retired Vance Wirth, who is also a member
of the team.
To his right, Helene Robertson.
Not in the room, but also a member
of our team is Nathalie Benoit.
THE CHAIR: Thank you. Mr.
Champ?
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
41234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 11/171
MR. CHAMP: I am Paul Champ for
the Complainants, Amnesty International Canada and
the British Columbia Civil Liberty Association.
I am joined by Khalid Elgazzar
today, as co-counsel.
Through this hearing we will also
be represented by Sebastien Jodoin and also Grace
Pastine and Carmen Chung.
THE CHAIR: Thank you.
Mr. Wallace?
MR. WALLACE: Good morning. My
name is Mark Wallace, I am counsel here today for
retired navy captain, Steve Moore, one of the
subjects and the former Canadian Forces Provost
Marshal.
THE CHAIR: Thank you.
MR. BERLINQUETTE: To reiterate
from our March 24th, 2010 opening statement on our
guiding principles, remained as follow: 1)
thoroughness; 2) expeditiousness; 3) openness to
the public and; 4) fairness.
As a Public Interest Hearing, it
is essential that the proceedings be as
transparent, accessible and open to the public as
possible.
We are mindful that inquiries can
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
51234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 12/171
have a serious impact on those implicated in the
process.
Therefore, this process must
balance the interests of the public in finding out
what happened with the rights of those involved to
be treated with fairness in the utmost respect.
This is not an adversarial
process, but an inquisitorial process.
The role of the Commission is to
receive complaints regarding the conduct of members
of the Military Police relating to policing duties
and functions.
Conduct investigations or public
hearings and render a report with findings and
recommendations.
It is the Commission’s intention
to commence hearing testimony today and continue on
April 7th and 8th.
On subsequent weeks, we will
preside Monday to Thursday with Friday liberated
for counsel preparation.
Only if it becomes necessary to
accommodate a witness will we sit on a particular
Friday.
We will commence hearings at 9
a.m. to 12 noon, with a break returning at 1330.
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
61234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 13/171
We intend to preside to 1630 hours
on hearing days and we will also take a short
morning and afternoon break.
We seek your cooperation in
abiding to these schedule hearing times.
Are there any questions at this
stage?
---(No response/pas de réponse)
Hearing none, I would ask Mr.
Lunau for his opening remarks.
MR. LUNAU: Thank you, Mr.
Berlinquette, Mr. Stannard.
The Commission is, this morning,
entering upon the evidence phase of the Afghanistan
Public Interest Hearings. Over the next several
weeks, the Commission will receive testimony from
approximately 25 witnesses of fact.
To set the stage for these
hearings, the issues that the Commission will
generally be examining arise from what has been
called the Failure To Investigate Complaint.
This complaint was delivered to
the Commission by Amnesty International and the
B.C. Civil Liberties Association on June 12th,
2008.
In summary terms, the complaint
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
71234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 14/171
alleges that from May 3rd, 2007 to June 12th, 2008,
members of the Canadian Forces National
Investigation Service in Kandahar and the Task
Force Provost Marshal were aware that former
Canadian Forces detainees were likely tortured by
Afghani authorities, yet failed to investigate
whether any members of the CF should be charged for
their role in facilitating these alleged crimes.
The complaint also alleges that
senior officers occupying the position of Commander
Task Force Afghanistan ordered the transferred
detainees to the custody of Afghan Secret Police
during the relevant period of time, despite first-
hand reports that previous detainees were tortured
by Afghani authorities.
The date of May 3rd, 2007, which
is the beginning date of the complaint, is tied by
the complainants to the date on which Canada signed
a Supplementary Detainee Transfer Agreement with
Afghanistan that permitted Canadian officials to
visit and inspect detainees in Afghani custody.
Although transfers were suspended
on November 6th, 2007, the complainants allege that
the transfer should have been halted much sooner,
since information was available through public
reports and from what the complainants described is
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
81234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 15/171
highly credible, first-hand reports of torture from
Canadian officials.
It has to be emphasized that the
allegations made in the complaint are just that,
allegations, and people should not be tempted to
leap to conclusions based on allegations and
incomplete evidence.
It is our intention to proceed
this morning first with the filing of documentary
exhibits.
As mentioned previously, the
Commission has compiled a tremendous volume of
documentary material through the power of summons,
interviews by Commission investigators and through
voluntary disclosure by parties and some witnesses.
Today these documents are being
filed publicly.
Many, if not all of them, may
already have been put in the public domain through,
for example, the recent productions in Parliament.
All of the counsel here this
morning have been provided with a list of exhibits.
Previously filed were exhibits P-1
to P-19 and our intention is not to re-file those
exhibits, but simply to adopt them.
They will retain the same exhibit
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
91234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 16/171
numbers as they have already been assigned.
The second batch of exhibits from
what will become P-20 to the end of the list, are
those new materials that are being filed today.
I would ask the Registrar to
assign exhibit numbers to those documents,
beginning with Exhibit P-20, letter from Lori
Bokenfohr to Alain Préfontaine dated October 13,
2009.
Before the Registrar does that, I
should just point out that all of the parties have
previously received disclosure of these documents
as they were made available to us and they have
before today been provided with a complete copy of
the various collections and documents that are set
out on the exhibit list.
So if there are no objections, I
would like to proceed to ask the Registrar to
identify those exhibits.
THE CHAIR: If I could, before we
ask the Registrar, are there any comments from any
of counsel at opening?
Mr. Préfontaine?
Mr. Champ?
Mr. Wallace?
---(no response/pas de réponse)
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
101234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 17/171
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 18/171
EXHIBIT P-27: Collection F,
NIS documents (6 Volumes).
EXHIBIT P-28: Collection G,
Notebooks (1 Volume).
EXHIBIT P-29: Collection H,
Documents from public open
sources (1 Volume).
EXHIBIT P-30: Collection I,
Transcript of Major Rowcliffe
(included in 2 volumes
identified as Collection I to
S)
EXHIBIT P-31: Collection J,
Transcript of Major Gribble
(included in 2 volumes
identified as Collections I
to S)
EXHIBIT P-32: Collection K,
Transcript of Sergeant Utton
(included in 2 volumes
identified as Collections I
to S).
EXHIBIT P-33: Collection L,
Transcript of Major Hudson
(included in 2 volumes
identified as Collections I
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
121234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 19/171
to S).
EXHIBIT P-34: Collection M,
Transcript of Major Boot
(included in 2 volumes
identified as Collections I
to S).
EXHIBIT P-35: Collection N,
Transcript of Ms. Duschner
(included in 2 volumes
identified as Collections I
to S).
EXHIBIT P-36: Collection O,
Transcript of Warrant Officer
Watson (included in 2 Volumes
identified as Collections I
to S).
EXHIBIT P-37: Collection P,
Transcript of Brigadier
General Laroche (included in
2 Volumes identified as
Collections I to S).
EXHIBIT P-38: Collection Q,
Transcript of Lieutenant
General Gauthier (included in
2 Volumes identified as
Collections I to S).
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
131234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 20/171
EXHIBIT P-39: Collection R,
Transcript of Captain Moore
(included in 2 volumes
identified as Collections I
to S).
EXHIBIT P-40: Collection S,
CSC documents (included in 2
volumes identified as
Collections I to S).
EXHIBIT P-41: Collection T,
relevant documents received
from AG on March 22nd, 2010
(1 volume).
EXHIBIT P-42: Document
index for the Main Witness
book.
EXHIBIT P-43: Document
index for the NIS Witness
Book.
EXHIBIT P-44: Transcript of
hearing held on December 4th,
2008.
EXHIBIT P-45: Transcript of
hearing held on May 25th,
2009.
EXHIBIT P-46: Transcript of
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
141234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 21/171
hearing held on May 26th,
2009.
EXHIBIT P-47: Transcript of
hearing held on June 1st,
2009.
EXHIBIT P-48: Transcript of
hearing held on June 2nd,
2009.
EXHIBIT P-49: Transcript of
hearing held on June 3rd,
2009.
EXHIBIT P-50: Transcript of
hearing held on October 7th,
2009.
EXHIBIT P-51: Transcript of
hearing held on October 14th,
2009.
EXHIBIT P-52: Transcript of
hearing held on December
10th, 2009.
MR. LUNAU: Thank you, Madam
Registrar.
With respect to the transcripts of
hearings held on December 4th, 2008, up to December
10th, 2009 that we filed as exhibits, some of those
transcripts contain evidence that was led at the
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
151234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 22/171
time the former Chair was a member of the panel and
our intention is not to recall those witnesses
unless we are requested to do so by a party and we
will be relying on the transcripts in lieu of
recalling those witnesses.
Now, we were advised late last
week that counsel on behalf of a number of the
subjects intends to present a request to the
Commission that certain evidence be heard in-
camera.
This type of request is permitted
by rule S-14 of the Commissions Afghanistan Public
Interest Hearing Rules.
I would ask counsel for the
subjects to speak to that request.
MS. RICHARDS: Good morning.
THE CHAIR: First of all, relative
to the filing of the transcripts, especially during
the time, Mr. Tinsley, if there are any issues that
need to be raised on that, or is that satisfactory?
---(No response/pas de réponse)
Hearing none. Thank you.
Ms. Richards?
MS. RICHARDS: Good morning,
members of the Panel.
As you are aware, we have raised
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
161234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 23/171
with your counsel some weeks ago and followed up
last week a request that a portion of these
proceedings be held in private in accordance with
the rules, and as counsel has referred to in
accordance with Rule 14 of the Afghan Public
Interest Hearing Rules; and in accordance with
250(42) of the National Defence Act.
Pursuant to your Rules and dealing
in accordance with the Act, that request must be
dealt with in private, so we are asking that our
request be dealt with following the completion of
the public portion of the opening statements this
morning.
THE CHAIR: The Rules also state
that the reasons then would be public, the response
to that; correct?
MS. RICHARDS: My understanding
under the Rules is that there will be a public
decision rendered, but there may also be a
confidential decision.
Of course, as you are no doubt
aware, there are some sensitivities about the
request itself, and it is for that reason that it
must be held in private.
THE CHAIR: Yes.
Any reason why this would not have
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
171234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 24/171
come up during the week of motions?
MS. RICHARDS: We were hopeful
that we were going to be able to resolve it among
counsel, and we have not been able to. So that is
why it is coming up today.
THE CHAIR: That is unfortunate.
We would have liked to have been
able to deal with it so that we could proceed with
testimony, obviously.
We have a number of people here,
including the members of the media, and other
counsel, obviously.
But having regard for the request,
I really am not in much of a position to move in-
camera.
How long do you anticipate to
take?
MS. RICHARDS: In terms of the
request?
I think we would be happy to
address it on a preliminary basis with you this
morning.
I think that will take 20 minutes
just to give you the overview and I think we can
come back this afternoon to deal with it in more
specificity.
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
181234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 25/171
THE CHAIR: You are anticipating
that this will end today though, we will be dealing
with the motion in its entirety today?
MS. RICHARDS: Yes, I hope so.
Yes.
THE CHAIR: I am sorry, go ahead.
MR. BERLINQUETTE: Will we be
hearing from the witness tomorrow?
MS. RICHARDS: I hope so. And
yes.
MR. BERLINQUETTE: We have a
schedule and we are trying to follow that schedule.
MS. RICHARDS: The witnesses are
available and depending on the resolution of this,
absolutely.
MR. BERLINQUETTE: Thank you.
THE CHAIR: In terms of the in-
camera portion, if counsel is in agreement, the
only persons that can remain are counsel and there
is no issues with any of your counsels at the
tables, including Mr. Champ.
I would also ask that exclusion be
made for allowing the MPCC counsel to remain, if
that is sufficient.
MS. RICHARDS: The only issue we
have and that we would ask is that counsel who
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
191234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 26/171
remain sign an undertaking, and we are happy to
discuss that as well.
THE CHAIR: Provide an
undertaking in --
MS. RICHARDS: Not to disclose
matters that are discussed in private.
THE CHAIR: Did you say sign or
just provide it to the panel?
MS. RICHARDS: Normally, it would
be done by way of written undertaking, but we can
discuss that.
THE CHAIR: Okay, thank you.
We will adjourn in-camera.
MR. CHAMP: I am sorry, Mr.
Chair, just before we break, if I may, I was just
wondering, it looks like we are going to be
breaking to deal with this ex parte issue or in-
camera issue.
I am wondering if we can get some
other direction also about where we stand in terms
of other disclosure issues?
I am not sure if Commission
counsel can assist us with that.
I wrote to Commission counsel near
the end of last week, providing disclosure of
documents that we had recently obtained that we
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
201234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 27/171
viewed as highly relevant and had not been
previously disclosed.
We were wondering if we could get
some kind of update on the status of disclosure.
I know when we convened about ten
days ago, we were apprised that there was some
disclosure outstanding but that it would occur
later on and it would not necessarily interfere at
the hearing.
Some of the information that we
have now seen suggests to us that we should get
access to some disclosure as soon as possible, if
perhaps Commission counsel can give us an update
where that stands.
We also understand there has been
outstanding Canada Evidence Act proceeding, we are
not sure where that is at either, whether some of
the documents are covered by that.
So just before we embark on some
of these other things, if I may, Mr. Chair, perhaps
look for an update from Commission counsel or from
the Panel on those issues.
THE CHAIR: That is fine.
Mr. Lunau --?
MR. LUNAU: We are still looking
at the letter and the materials from Mr. Champ in
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
211234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 28/171
terms of document production.
We have been, first of all,
reporting to the parties weekly as documents have
come in.
We are told that there are still a
substantial number of documents that are being
processed and that are to be provided to us.
They will be provided as they are
redacted and disclosed. I cannot provide a time
frame for when that will happen.
Obviously when the documents do
come in, we will have to examine them and see what
steps are required to be taken to deal with those
documents.
In terms of the Canada Evidence
Act proceedings that my friend alludes to, those
proceedings are still before the Court, they have
not been discontinued, but there has been a process
trying to deal with the government over the extent
and nature of those redactions.
By and large, the redactions that
have been made, we do not intend to contest
further.
MR. CHAMP: If I might on that,
Mr. Chair, there is a core set of documents that we
view as relevant and we note that one of those
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
221234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 29/171
document has, fortunately, become less redacted by
the government. This was one of the AColvin
documents”.
This was a document that we have
had in our possession for quite some time.
One of the only Colvin documents
that we had up until last fall, but for the
purposes of this proceeding, one that we viewed as
highly relevant.
This was one of the first
monitoring visits by Canadian diplomats on June 6th
of 2007 into an NDS facility in Kabul.
We received, I guess it’s about
two weeks ago now, another version of that document
that is much less redacted which is very helpful in
sort of casting more light on what was happening at
the time, what information was received by Canadian
diplomats.
In that context, we had hoped that
perhaps there were other redactions going on or a
second look at certain documents, specifically all
the other -- what we have termed the Atorture
reports”, these were the monitoring visit reports
between June 5th, 2007 and November 5th, 2007.
There were, by our count, four
visits -- pardon me, five visits, including the
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
231234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 30/171
November 5th, 2007 stop where Canadian diplomats
heard first hand accounts of torture.
On at least two of those documents
we do not even have the precise date. We can
estimate the date, that they are in the summer or
early fall of 2007.
They were visits to the NDS
facility in Kandahar and we were wondering if
Commission counsel had considered exploring with
the Attorney General if further redactions were
possible on those documents.
If the coven visit on June 6th
could have some redactions removed, it is our view
that some of those other documents could have
redactions removed and would cast, in our view,
really critical light on what we view as our most
serious concern.
The November 5th, 2007 detainee
who, in our view, really cannot be seriously
contested that that individual was tortured, where
they found the electrical cable and rubber hose in
the cell and wounds on the gentleman’s back.
There was two other reports that
must have been in close time frame, one titled
Kandahar 0074 and Kandahar 0082, if we could get
access to even the dates of those reports, we think
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
241234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 31/171
that it could provide all of us with a bit more
information of what information was in the hands of
Canadian diplomats, at least.
We are hoping that information was
transmitted to the Canadian Forces, but also the
dates when it was in their hands.
We view this as very critical
information and it is issues that we intend to
raise in cross-examination with witnesses because
we think the time line is critical and we are
wondering if this is something that is still -- we
were hoping actually there was a subject of ongoing
discussion, but it sounds like it is not and we are
wondering if we can suggest that Commission counsel
continue looking into those issues.
THE CHAIR: Mr. Lunau?
MR. LUNAU: We are happy to
continue looking into matters of concern to my
friend, but I cannot say that with respect to all
of these documents that have been produced, they
have been examined and there has been a lot of back
and forth with the government to try to explain
from the Commission’s perspective why certain
redactions, in our view, should be reconsidered.
Many of them were reconsidered in
the documents that were tabled here today reflect
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
251234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 32/171
those consultations.
I can tell you, we have made
significant efforts to limit the redactions to
those that the government considers strictly
essential.
As I say, if there are particular
pieces of information that you would like us to
take up again and continue trying to resolve those
issues with the government, we are quite happy to
do that.
That is about all I can say on the
matter.
I mean, we have tried to get as
much information out of these documents as we can.
Also bear in mind that witnesses,
including Mr. Colvin, will be testifying and there
will be an opportunity to supplement these written
reports with his oral testimony.
THE CHAIR: Mr. Préfontaine, any
comment?
MR. PRÉFONTAINE: Yes, in the
sense that the sole purpose of this Commission is
obviously to look at what the eight subjects knew
or had the means of knowing and whether they ever
had reason to form a suspicion that the orders
issued by the commander to transfer individual
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
261234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 33/171
detainees would expose each and every one of those
detainees to a serious risk of torture.
So the concern of Mr. Champ about
what diplomats knew is actually irrelevant to the
work of this Commission.
It is very relevant to the cause
being pursued and advanced by Amnesty International
in other forums.
I recognize it is a legitimate
issue of debate in other forums.
But we have gone through the
exercise of clarifying this Commissions’ purview,
we have gone to the Federal Court and it has been
very precisely defined what Parliament intended
this Commission to look at.
I think expressions of interest
are one thing, but they have to be reconciled both
with Parliament’s mandate to this Commission, which
defines relevancy and with the requirement to
protect information which, if disclosed, would be
injurious to Canada’s international relations,
national defence or national security, which is the
interest covered by section 38.
I think that Mr. Lunau quite
fairly conceded that the present results, that is
to say the documents redacted in their present
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
271234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 34/171
form, represent the most viable compromise between
these competing tensions.
Obviously, as witnesses testify,
they will have to protect the same information.
It is not because the witness is
in the witness box, that something was deemed to be
worthy of protection, yesterday, all of a sudden
becomes open season today.
THE CHAIR: Would you agree that
if some documents, further redactions become
available, then they be made available to the
Panel?
MR. PRÉFONTAINE: Of course,
certainly.
I have already made that
commitment to my friend, Mr. Lunau, in relation to
the process going on in the other place, which is
spearheaded by former Justice Iacobucci.
THE CHAIR: Is it possible to
have some of the documents specifically mentioned
by Mr. Champ included in that review?
That ongoing discussion and
review?
MR. PRÉFONTAINE: They all are,
Mr. Chairman.
But I do not control the timelines
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
281234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 35/171
of that process.
The only thing I can report is
that former Justice Iacobucci is presently busily
working away.
When he will report and when he
will make his recommendations is something I do not
know.
THE CHAIR: Okay.
Before I turn to you.
Mr. Wallace?
MR. WALLACE: I have nothing to
add on this issue at this point in time.
THE CHAIR: Briefly, Mr. Champ?
MR. CHAMP: Just very briefly,
Mr. Chair, I guess what I am hearing is that --
I guess my concern is this, Mr.
Chair.
Last week we came into possession
of documents through -- it was an access to
information request by a media outlet that
indicated that the acting commander of Task Force
Afghanistan on November 6th, 2007, who suspended
transfers was in possession of the DFAIT monitoring
report of November 5th, 2007, that is the one where
they found the electrical cable and the rubber
hose.
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
291234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 36/171
I am now, it seems to me, hearing
that perhaps --
And first of all, I do not know
how we did not have those documents before, why
those documents were not disclosed. That is of
concern to me.
And secondly, I am hearing my
friend now suggesting that the Military Police
subjects of this complaint were unaware of the
other Department of Foreign Affairs monitoring
reports.
If that is the case, I would like
that confirmed for the record.
I disagree with my friend that it
would not be in the means of knowing, but I think
it would very much sort of shape how at least we
would be approaching the complaint.
THE CHAIR: I did not say we
agree with Mr. Préfontaine, I just heard him say
that.
MR. CHAMP: Mr. Chair, you were
not here before, neither was lead counsel, but it
was about a week before the hearing was going to
start in October 2009, Mr. Berlinquette, you might
recall, where we had learned for the first time
that in fact there had been investigations by the
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
301234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 37/171
Military Police.
We did not know that until a week
before hearing.
My concern now is, at least from
my perspective, this is a very critical piece of
information were the Canadian Forces Military
Police unaware of the DFAIT monitoring reports.
It would be very helpful, I think
for all parties, if we could just be advised by
counsel for the subject if that was or was not the
case.
MR. PRÉFONTAINE: The answer is
simple, Mr. Chairman.
This Commission has set, for
itself, the role of finding out whether M.P.’s knew
or had the means of knowing.
I think I would not assist the
Commission its endeavour if I was to take a
position on that.
It is for the Commission to
inquire into and report on.
THE CHAIR: Mr. Lunau?
MR. LUNAU: I do not think I can
add anything further, Mr. Chair.
Certainly amongst the witnesses
who are going to be called are members of the
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
311234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 38/171
Military Police from all levels of command
involvement and involvement on the ground in
Kandahar.
The issue of what they knew or had
the means of knowing, and in particular with
respect to the number of e-mails and human rights
reports and other sources of information that were
available is going to be one of the topics that
will be the subject of examination.
So I think it is premature at this
point to try and speculate or speak to what they
will say in terms of what information reports they
saw or did not see.
THE CHAIR: Thank you.
I think your comments we have
noted, and I know the issue of the redactions is an
ongoing process.
Obviously when we hear from the
witnesses the necessary examination will take place
by all parties.
We are going to take five minutes
just to adjourn, but I expect when we come back we
will move in-camera.
MR. PRÉFONTAINE: I am sorry, Mr.
Chairman, I had understood from your counsel that
we were going to deal with the opening remarks that
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
321234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 39/171
you called for, and it might be an opportune time
for us to do that now before you move in-camera so
that you can do as much publically before you break
to move in private as you can.
THE CHAIR: That is fine.
MR. PRÉFONTAINE: I have not
discussed with Mr. Lunau if he had an order of
presentation.
If Commission counsel does not
have opening remarks to offer, then I would assume
that the complainants will make their opening
remarks first.
THE CHAIR: Mr. Lunau, I believe
you have made your --
MR. LUNAU: That is correct, yes.
THE CHAIR: They have all done
theirs.
In terms of order, I know there
has been discussions in the previous -- I have read
them on the transcripts, so are we satisfied, Mr.
Champ, that you will proceed?
MR. CHAMP: That is fine, Mr.
Chair.
THE CHAIR: Followed by Mr.
Préfontaine?
MR. PRÉFONTAINE: No, usually it
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
331234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 40/171
is my friend, Mr. Wallace, and then I get to be the
last.
THE CHAIR: Okay. Mr. Champ?
MR. CHAMP: In terms of opening
remarks, Mr. Chair, I will just note that we have,
in fact, made opening remarks previously on May
25th, 2009, so we fully adopt those at that time.
We also note the opening remarks
that are made by Mr. Lunau, the new Commission lead
counsel this morning and we believe he has, for the
most part, accurately captured the core of our
complaint.
OPENING REMARKS BY MR. CHAMP:
As indicated in our June 12th,
2008 complaint, our concern is that on May 3rd,
2007, the Canadian Government signed a new detainee
transfer arrangement with the Government of
Afghanistan that allowed Canadian officials to
monitor those detainees in Afghan detention
facilities.
As soon as they commenced that
monitoring, from almost the very first visit,
Canadian diplomats began hearing first hand
accounts of torture and abuse.
Between June 5th, 2007 and
November 5th, 2007, approximately 1/4 to 1/3 of
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
341234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 41/171
detainees interviewed told Canadian diplomats that
they had been tortured in the most horrible forms
imaginable.
Some of those detainees had wounds
consistent with their allegations. Others were
described by Canadian diplomats as clearly
traumatized.
Our concern, Mr. Chair, is that
notwithstanding those reports, and notwithstanding
also the numerous public reports available from
various credible organizations such as the United
Nations, the United States State Department, the
Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission and the
Department of Foreign Affairs own annual Human
Rights reports on Afghanistan, all finding that
torture is endemic in Afghan detention facilities,
and suspension transfers continued.
We believe that this issue really
comes to a point in November 5th, 2007 when one
detainee could actually point to the implements
with which he was tortured.
Now, governing by what we know of
how long the NDS or the Afghan Secret Police keep
detainees in custody, that is approximately one
month, we can infer that the November 5th, 2007
detainee was transferred within a few weeks of that
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
351234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 42/171
interview.
So in short, he was transferred to
torture at a time when at least the Canadian
Department of Foreign Affairs was in possession of
numerous reports of first-hand allegations of
torture.
Our concern here is that once that
November 5th, 2007 allegation came to light, it
should have been incumbent upon the responsible
Military Police officials to inquire further and
investigate whether such transfers were in fact
lawful.
That is the core of our complaint,
Mr. Chair.
We have extended our complaint to
June 2008. That is essentially a black hole in
terms of information for us.
We do not know precisely what was
going on in that period, although in our view,
given all of those accounts of torture,
approximately a quarter of individuals saying that
they were being tortured, there should not have
been any further transfers or at the very least
such transfers should have been investigated by the
Military Police. That is the core of our concern,
Mr. Chair.
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
361234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 43/171
We are looking forward to hearing
the evidence of the next few weeks.
In terms of preliminary points, I
would note again, at this point, Mr. Chair, we are
not satisfied with the disclosure that has been
obtained thus far.
Obviously, you see beside us many
volumes of paper, but I have been working on this
file for some time, Mr. Chair, and what we are
missing, in my view, are the critical documents
where are the detainee transfer records?
We know that apparently there was
some kind of reports or forms that were filled in
on the risk of torture at the time of transfer
decisions. We do not see those.
We do not even know the precise
dates, as I just pointed out earlier, of some of
these torture reports.
We know the general time frame,
within a couple of months, but no one knows
precisely when they occurred.
We do not know, as I say, what
precisely did the relevant military police officers
know.
And we have a hard time believing
that there is absolutely no documents on that.
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
371234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 44/171
So given that what we have heard
today, that it appears that the search for
documents is, to a large extent, closed, we may
well bring a motion sometime in the next week or
two on that issue, Mr. Chair.
Final point on opening remark,
because I anticipate it may be raised, is some of
the exhibits that have been introduced this morning
concern a letter from previous counsel for Mr.
Richard Colvin, Lori Bokenfohr as well as a letter
from Mr. Préfontaine, counsel for the subjects to
all of the witnesses, there was an exchange of
letters on those exhibits some time ago and we have
not had an opportunity to address those yet.
If I may, I would just suggest
this.
The concern about those letters is
that witnesses were in some way intimidated or
interfered with in preventing their cooperation
with this Inquiry and with this Commission.
In our view, those letters do bear
that out.
In our view, Mr. Chair, it would
also suggest that there is perhaps an ongoing issue
with accountability within the Canadian Forces that
has been revealed by that conduct.
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
381234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 45/171
Previous Commission Chair, Mr.
Tinsley had already pointed out that his concern of
disclosure of documents related to that.
But we also know, Mr. Chair, I am
sure you have had an opportunity to read the MPCC
report on the Attaran complaint, although somewhat
of a different nature of allegation, some of the
systemic issues concerning the independence of the
military police in theatre, and also the
willingness of the Canadian Forces to cooperate
with inquiries or investigations into their
actions, in our view, is laid bare.
In that report, the Commission
pointed out that the national investigation service
was obstructed in trying to obtain detainee
documents from other Canadian Forces units. They
were contemplating getting a warrant, a judicial
order, to obtain documents in Kandahar.
There is also an account in that
report from the Deputy Director of International
Humanitarian Law and the Department of Foreign
Affairs raising a concern about potential
mistreatment of a detainee, sending an e-mail to
the Department of National Defence, asking for an
account. That e-mail was ignored.
It was communicated to that
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
391234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 46/171
individual through indirect channels that such
intervention was unwelcome.
Then of course there is the Somali
report, which also had an entire chapter on issues
of transparency or lack thereof within the Canadian
Forces.
We think this is a systemic issue,
that we may see through this hearing, Mr. Chair,
and we ask that the panel be alive to it.
With respect to the both
Préfontaine letters, we have not heard how
commission counsel intends to proceed, but our
suggestion might be that they are in the record,
that some witnesses could be asked questions about
them.
And on final submissions, parties
might address that issue, but the willingness of
the department and the Forces to cooperate with
this inquiry and perhaps appropriate
recommendations from this Commission panel could
then be forthcoming in the final report.
So that is just, I guess a sub-
plot or a sub-theme if you will, to this complaint,
but we wanted to raise it with you and we thought
that this would situate or contextualize those
letters and how we see them fitting into the
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
401234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 47/171
overall conduct of this inquiry.
Those are our opening remarks.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
THE CHAIR: Thank you.
Mr. Wallace?
MR. WALLACE: Thank you, Mr.
Chair.
I will be very brief.
OPENING SUBMISSIONS BY MR. WALLACE:
As you know, my client is Retired
Navy Captain, Steven Moore, who was the Canadian
Forces Provost Marshal during the period of time
that is covered by the complaint.
Being the Canadian Forces Provost
Marshal means that he, at the time, was the highest
ranking military police officer in the Department
of National Defence.
It also means that he is the
commanding officer of the National Investigation
Service (NIS).
Despite his rank, however, he does
not and did not command the military police
officers in theatre.
This makes his position very
different from that of a civilian chief of police.
Because of this difference and his
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
411234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 48/171
dual role, it makes the command structure and flow
of information following that command structure of
particular importance from his perspective.
These hearings will examine the
conduct of the subjects in the context of the
complaint by Amnesty International and B.C. Civil
Liberties Association.
We must all keep our eyes on that
ball, that is the nature of the complaint.
These hearings are not about the
wisdom of the government’s policy in Afghanistan,
but rather the specific conduct of the subjects.
Keeping the proper focus will
allow you to make a sharper assessment of the facts
that are presented to you.
Thank you.
THE CHAIR: Thank you, Mr.
Wallace.
MR. PRÉFONTAINE: I welcome this
opportunity, Mr. Chairman and member Berlinquette
to make a few introductory remarks to assist the
Complaints Commission.
OPENING SUBMISSIONS BY MR. PRÉFONTAINE:
This public hearing is an aide to
an investigation into a specific conduct complaint
made against eight individuals.
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
421234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 49/171
It is not a trial.
My opening remarks will not follow
the usual patron of opening remarks made by counsel
when they open their case at a trial, but will
focus instead on what the Commission in mandated by
law to do and what it is not mandated to do.
At its most basic level, the
complaint is about whether the subjects of the
conduct complaint could reasonably suspect that the
task force commander had committed a crime, and if
they had such a reasonable suspicion whether a
reasonable M.P. placed in similar circumstances
would have initiated an investigation against the
commander.
The focus of your investigation
and of the hearing which it serves, must, as the
Federal Court has already decreed, be about what
the eight subjects knew or had the means of knowing
to form that reasonable suspicion.
Conversely, the hearing is not
about what other actors knew or had the means of
knowing.
The mandate of the Complaints
Commission is limited to a review of the conduct of
members of the Military Police in the performance
of their policing duties and function, and of no
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
431234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 50/171
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 51/171
therefore, for that reason, is not something that
this Commission can do.
How Canada lives up to its
international law obligation under the Geneva
Conventions and under the convention against
torture are important and legitimate issues, but
the fact that these issues are important and
legitimate matters of inquiry by other bodies, does
not expand the role parliament has assigned to this
Commission.
If the rule of law, which the
complainants say they want to see upheld, is to
mean anything, then it means that the law must be
obeyed in every circumstance where it applies, not
only when it seems convenient to do so.
The law in this particular matter
has defined precisely the scope of this
Commission’s mandate.
So as you hear evidence that other
Government of Canada actors might have formed
beliefs and opinions about the treatment of
detainees post-transfer, the issue for review is
not what those actors did or did not do, but only
whether they shared these opinions and beliefs with
one of the eight subjects, because then it connects
back to your mandate of what the subjects knew or
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
451234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 52/171
had the means of knowing.
In that respect, you must keep in
mind the rules governing the protection of
sensitive information.
When we last met, I alluded to the
high level articulation of those rules contained in
the Treasury Board Policy on the security of
information.
The most relevant of those rules
is the rule restricting access to classified or
protected information on a need-to-know basis.
To understand that rule, you must
keep in mind who decides who needs to know what
information.
The regime entrusts that
responsibility to the originator of the
information.
Thus, in the declassified
documents forming part of your record, which has
been considerably expanded upon today, you will
often see the acronym Asecret CEO” at the top of
messages.
This acronym was obviously
inserted by the originator of the message. It is a
direction by that originator that the information
is classified, and that is what the word Asecret”
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
461234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 53/171
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 54/171
We will discuss that at that time.
Thank you.
--- Whereupon adjourning in public at 11:05 a.m.
--- Whereupon the in camera motion was heard
at 11:34 a.m., transcribed under separate
cover.
--- Whereupon the in camera motion concluded
at 12:30 p.m.
--- Upon resuming the public portion at 2:00 p.m.
--- In camera witness Sgt. Utton transcript in full
reproduced below.
THE CHAIRPERSON: All counsel have
acknowledged. Are we ready to proceed? Is there
anything further we need to just clarify, or is
everybody ready to go?
MR. LUNAU: Yes, sir, I am ready,
and that certain person is just outside? Okay.
--- (Witness entered the hearing room)
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Good
afternoon. Has the witness been sworn?
MS. RICHARDS: Yes, it has.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Good
afternoon. I am the acting chair, Glenn Standard,
and this is Mr. Roy Berlinquette, also a Panel and
Commission Member. Mr. Lunau.
MR. LUNAU: Thank you.
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
481234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 55/171
PREVIOUSLY SWORN: SGT CAROL UTTON
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. LUNAU:
Q. Good afternoon, Sgt. Utton.
We haven't met yet. My name is Ron Lunau. I am
counsel for the Commission and I am going to be
asking you some questions this afternoon. And when
I finish my friends here will have some questions
to ask you.
I would like to start with a brief
review of your background in the military and I am
going to go through what I understand your
background to be. If there is anything that needs
to be added or corrected, please let me know.
I understand you enrolled in the
Canadian Forces in 1987, took basic training in
January 1988, and military police training in the
fall of 1988. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And then you were posted to
Canadian Forces Base Cold Lake, and then the
Provost Marshal's office in Ottawa where you worked
in the data room?
A. Yes.
Q. Following that, you were
posted to the CFB Kingston military police section.
Then you served with the Royal Canadian Dragoons
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
491234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 56/171
and then CFB Petawawa military police section. Is
that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Then you transferred to the
military police company here in Ottawa and
subsequently did one tour of duty in Afghanistan
from February to July 2007. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And you were part of Roto 3?
A. Yes.
Q. I understand your rank is
currently sergeant, but at the time of your
deployment you were a master corporal and you were
promoted to a sergeant while you were in
Afghanistan?
A. Yes.
Q. What position in Afghanistan
were you posted to?
A. It was the security NCM
position.
Q. I have seen reference to 2
I/C detainee operations. Is that another way off
describing that position?
A. No.
Q. Who was your immediate
supervisor?
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
501234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 57/171
A. Sergeant Steward.
Q. Did you hold that position
throughout Roto 3?
A. My primary was security NCM.
Secondary was 2 I/C detainee ops.
Q. I see, are these two
different --
A. Yes.
Q. -- positions? Okay. Can
you explain for us what the responsibilities for
each of these two positions was.
A. Security NCM, I did the
physical security surveys that had to be done for
our mission. They were cyclical. They had to be
done yearly. And I did the identification NCM
responsibilities and general police investigations
into security matters.
Q. Is NCM an acronym for
something?
A. Non-Commissioned member.
Q. In terms of your duties as 2
I/C detainee ops, what did those duties entail?
A. Assisting the I/C, Sergeant
Steward.
Q. Can you explain to us, sir,
or give us some idea of the kind of activities you
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
511234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 58/171
would have carried out and how you would have
interacted with detainees.
A. I would take my, Sergeant
Steward would indicate if we were to receive
detainees or it would come from our chain of
command and we would do the preparatory work,
making sure the paperwork, all the paperwork was
ready, notify the Role 3 medical facilities to have
a Canadian doctor ready and await for the detainee
arrival.
Q. In terms of the amount of
time you would have devoted to your job as security
NCM, your job as 2 I/C detainee ops, how would you
allocate your time?
A. Depended on the day.
Q. Was one more a primary duty
than the other?
A. Detainee ops was the
priority. Everything else, unless it was mission
critical, would be, you would have to prioritize.
Q. In your role as security NCM
or 2 I/C detainee ops, did you have any
investigative duties?
A. For security-related minor MP
investigations.
Q. Can you give us some examples
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
521234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 59/171
of the types of investigations you might have been
involved in?
A. Security infractions.
Security infractions or potentially breaches,
normal in accordance with national defence security
policy investigations.
Q. Anything involving detainees
or treatment of detainees?
A. No, that was not our -- that
was not within -- that's not a security NCM duty in
accordance with the national defence security
policy.
Q. If you know, which MP element
was responsible for conducting criminal
investigations in theatre?
A. The Kandahar airfield
military police detachment, patrol sections did
criminal investigations, and the NIS did criminal
investigations.
Q. Did you have any involvement
in investigations carried out by any of those
bodies?
A. The KAF MPs, there was one
incident I was in I was the senior ranking person
in the detachment at night and we had the
accidental negligent discharge where the soldier
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
531234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 60/171
was killed.
Q. But again, nothing to do with
detainees or treatment of detainees?
A. I knew the NIS was
undertaking an investigation at that time, and that
is all I know from that.
Q. You mentioned I think
Sergeant Steward. He was your immediate
supervisor?
A. Yes.
Q. Going up the chain of
command, who would Sergeant Steward have reported
to?
A. Warrant Le Blanc.
Q. And then from Warrant Le
Blanc, the change of command would go to?
A. Captain Worsfold.
Q. And then from Captain
Worsfold to the Task Force Provost Marshal?
A. Yes.
Q. Where were you physically
located during your tour of duty?
A. In Kandahar airfield, KAF.
Q. In terms of the work you were
doing that involved detainees, who would you take
instructions from?
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
541234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 61/171
A. Can you elaborate what you
mean?
Q. Sure. In the chain of
command the activities that you have described that
you were carrying out with respect to paperwork,
documenting arrivals, and that kind of thing, who
did you take instructions from on a day-to-day
basis?
A. If Sergeant Steward was there
it would be him, and then if not, it would come
from either Warrant Le Blanc or Captain Worsfold or
if they were not there from MP ops, MPHQ.
Q. Are you familiar with the
detainee facility at KAF?
A. Yes.
Q. And I have seen reference to
it being called a transfer facility as opposed to a
holding facility. Are you familiar with that?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell us why it was
called a transfer facility as opposed to a holding
facility?
A. I believe that because it
wasn't -- detainees were never -- were intended to
be held there for a period longer than the 96
hours, so it was either -- it was a transfer. They
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
551234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 62/171
were brought in and then they were transferred or
released.
Q. Had the facility been
designed to hold persons for lengthy periods of
time?
A. In my opinion, no.
Q. And then you made reference
to 96 hours. What was the significance of the 96
hours?
A. I have no idea.
Q. Did it have something to do
with the time limit within which detainees were to
be transferred or released?
A. That was initially, yes, they
were supposed to be brought from their point of
capture into the detainee transfer facility and
either transferred, released within a 96-hour
period.
Q. You first arrived at KAF in
February 2007. Did you get involved in detainees
right away? As soon as you arrived were you
involved detainee processing and detainee
transfers?
A. No, because initially upon
KAF you have a three-, four-day intake cycle into
the camp.
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
561234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 63/171
Q. So how long do you think it
was before you got involved with detainee
processing?
A. I don't recall the exact
dates. I believe it was in February, early March.
Q. Can you tell us what the
intake process, how it operated when you got
involved in February?
A. There's certain specific
security details. I don't think I can elaborate on
that.
Q. Let me see if I can ask some
more specific questions without getting into any
sensitive areas. First of all, when you arrived in
February 2007, were detainees being released by
troops in the field?
A. I believe so.
Q. So they would be released
without going through the detainee facility or your
intake process?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you know to whom they
were being transferred?
A. I believe it would be -- it
was either the Afghan National Police or the Afghan
National Army.
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
571234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 64/171
Q. During the time when those
releases were taking place, to your knowledge were
you getting any paperwork or information,
documented information back on these detainees?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell us how these
transfers were being documented?
A. On the paperwork as per the
task force standing order, the annexes, the capture
report.
Q. Initially were there some
concerns about the quality of the paperwork that
was being done?
A. I don't think there was
concerns, but we -- not we, the MP ops we
streamlined it. We made it more efficient, that
paperwork.
Q. At some point the field
released stopped, as I understand it, is that
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know the reasons why
they stopped?
A. No, I do not.
Q. Did you ever hear rumours or
stories about possible mistreatment of detainees
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
581234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 65/171
after they were handed over to the Afghan
authorities? I am talking still in this period of
time when detainees were being released by the
troops in the field without going through your
detainee facility.
A. I just heard a basic soldier
rumour.
Q. What were those rumours?
A. One rumour -- the only rumour
I ever heard was that they were going to turn them
over to one of those, either the Afghan National
Army, the Afghan National Police and an interpreter
said as soon as the Canadians left they would be
killed, so the Canadian soldier intervened and took
back the detainee.
Q. Right.
A. But that was just a rumour.
Nothing was ever -- I never saw any paperwork or
anything official policy on it, on that. That was
just a soldier's rumour.
Q. I understand, so there were
rumours going around. I think when you were
interviewed by the Commission you referred to the
transfers being stopped because of what you called
stories out there and so what I am interested in is
knowing what kind of stories were you referring to.
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
591234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 66/171
A. That would be it.
Q. At some point the field
releases stopped. Do you recall when that was?
A. No, not really. Could have
been April, May, before. I don't recall.
Q. And then was it mandatory
that detainees captured in the field had to be
turned over to the MP section at KAF for
processing?
A. Yes, any detainees that were
captured after that, when it came there was no more
releases, capture and releases in the field, yes,
they all had to come to the detainee transfer
facility.
Q. Again without getting into
any areas that were sensitive, they would arrive at
the detainee facility and would some paperwork be
done on them?
A. Yes.
Q. Were they given medical
checks?
A. They were given medical
checks upon capture by medics in the field and then
once they were brought to KAF they were taken to
the Role 3 medic facility and checked by either
Canadian physician or the senior physician's
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
601234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 67/171
assistant medic.
Q. And you have told us the
paperwork that was done was set out in a SOP or a
standing order?
A. Yes.
Q. Were the detainees told what
might be happening to them in terms of transfer
release?
A. What do you mean by that?
From what point in time?
Q. The detainee arrives at the
detainee facility. Are they told what lies in
store for them? In other words, here is what is
going to happen? Within 96 hours you will be
either released or a decision will be made about
being transferred?
A. No, we never got in specifics
like that.
Q. Did you have any discussions
with detainees -- first of all, when the detainees
arrived and were being sort of in, processed in,
were you involved at that stage?
A. If I was actually in KAF,
yes.
Q. Were they given any
information about the Afghan Human Rights
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
611234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 68/171
Commission?
A. Detainees would be told
through an interpreter that they were currently
being held by the Canadians, Canadian Forces, and
that their families would be notified through the
Red Cross and that the Afghan government would be
told where they are.
Q. Were you personally aware of
the obligations to treat detainees in a humane
fashion?
A. Yes.
Q. And the people you worked
with in the MP company, were they aware of those
obligations?
A. Yes.
Q. What steps were taken to
ensure that detainees were treated well?
A. For one thing when they are
brought into KAF into the detainee transfer
facility, we ensured that they were given food and
water. They were given a Koran, a prayer mat; they
were told the Red Cross would be notified where
they are; and we would give them clothing,
coveralls, flip-flop sandals, toothbrush, shower,
soap. And they would be given ice cold bottles of
water to take into their holding area. And on
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
621234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 69/171
really hot days we would make sure they had cold
beverages. We gave them towels to cool themselves
down.
Q. And did you ever witness what
could be characterized as any mistreatment or
ill-treatment of detainees?
A. Never.
Q. In terms of the decisions as
to the disposition of detainees, do you know who
made the decision in the case of each detainee
whether they would be released or transferred?
A. That was task force
commander.
Q. Can you explain to us what
the process was for obtaining or communicating that
decision down to the detention facility.
A. We would get a call from MP
operations being told whether the detainee would be
released or transferred.
Q. Do you have any sense of how
many were released as opposed to transferred?
A. The number of detainees that
were detained by the Canadian Forces has
consistently been protected under section 38. I
just raise that. If you talk in generalities,
that's fine, but talking specific numbers is not
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
631234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 70/171
permitted.
Q. I was talking in
generalities. I would like to try to get a sense,
were more released than were transferred or the
other way around?
A. During my time there were
several releases, yes.
Q. Is it correct that the
detainees who were transferred to the Afghani
authorities were all transferred -- and I am
talking about the detention facility, transfers out
of the detention facility -- that they were all
transferred to the NDS?
A. I believe so.
Q. And again when a transferee
was released to the NDS was there documentation
that was completed with respect to the transfer or
handover?
A. The NDS if there was a
transfer would sign the change of custody form.
Q. Do you know who would be
notified that the NDS had taken custody of the
prisoner or detainee?
A. I don't understand. What do
you mean?
Q. You hand over the prisoner to
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
641234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 71/171
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 72/171
A. Not that I believe. I didn't
read it in any SOP.
Q. So far as you were aware, you
never saw any order, instruction making the MP
company responsible for any follow-up?
A. Not at my level, no.
Q. Did the MP company have any
responsibility for notifying either the
International Committee of the Red Cross or the
Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission
that detainees had been received?
A. Yes, at the beginning that
was the detainee ops responsibility. And then once
the detainee officer came to the Canadian
headquarters he undertook that responsibility.
Q. Do you know or can you recall
about when this detainee officer would have taken
up that position? Maybe just to help you locate it
--
A. Probably was in April or May.
Q. It might have -- was it
around -- do you remember the agreement May 3,
2007?
A. I don't recall. I know we
did it and then we stopped doing it.
Q. The detainee officer, had he
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
661234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 73/171
been there throughout your entire tour or was that
somebody new who came along?
A. I don't recall ever meeting
him. I believe it was Major Mackay. I don't know
if he was replaced during the tour, if there was
another officer. I just know that they weren't
there right when we arrived in February and March
and it took a while.
Q. When you first arrived there,
and I would like to ask to address your mind to the
period of time before May 2007, so we are looking
at about the first four months you were there. As
far as you know, when detainees were transferred
over to the NDS do you have knowledge who if
anybody was doing any follow-up visits or
monitoring of these detainees?
A. No, I do not.
Q. Did that cause you or to your
knowledge your fellow MPs concern?
A. I can't speak for my fellow
MPs, but I never thought about it.
Q. Did you have any belief that
a government agency apart from the military would
be doing any follow-up checks?
A. I never thought about it.
Q. Did you have any knowledge
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
671234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 74/171
whether Foreign Affairs, for example, was checking
into detainees?
A. I had no knowledge. I knew
there was a Corrections Service Canada personnel in
theatre because I saw a lady wearing the uniform,
but I never thought about any of that. I was told
we turn them over to Afghan lawful authority.
Q. Are you aware whether during
your rotation an agreement was made that allowed
follow-up on detainees?
A. I believe that was after the
initial stop of transfers and releases in May and
when it resumed that was the agreement made by the
Canadian government and the Afghan government.
Q. If I could just ask you a
couple of questions about the handing over of
detainees to the NDS. Can you tell us how that
process worked?
A. No, I cannot, for security
reasons.
Q. We have, you recall that you
were interviewed by Mr. Lenton of the Commission?
A. Yes.
Q. The transcript of that
interview has been filed as an exhibit and it has
been redacted by the government so there is no more
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
681234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 75/171
-- anything that is secret or confidential has been
taken out of it. I would like to read you a
response you gave to a question that is at page 57.
MR. ELGAZZAR: Can I ask which
volume here?
MR. LUNAU: It is called Documents
I to S, volume 1 of two.
MR. ELGAZZAR: Exhibit 30, is it?
MR. LUNAU: Page 57. There is
actually three different page numbers depending
where you look. At the top of the page, it is 57.
At the bottom right, it is 58. And it begins -- so
57 at the top centre.
BY MR. LUNAU:
Q. The question you were asked
by Mr. Mills:
"You likely had some contact
in your tour with either ANA
people or NDS people. Did
you ever have any concerns
about the safety of the
detainees that were being
released to any of those
agencies?"
And your answer was:
"Like I said, we'd never
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
691234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 76/171
release to the ANA or the ANP
from the transfer facility,
it was just the NDS. Blank
would make the arrangements.
They would bring the NDS to
the facility. I mean, there
was no guarantee they were
going to accept them. So
that could be, it is like
court thing. I'd present the
evidence and the documents to
the gentlemen. It was
usually the same guy. It was
a long process, I mean a long
time, and if the detainees
were on any medication or
anything I know I made a
point, I'd get the
interpreter to write in
Pashto in regards to what the
prescription was for, when it
had to be taken, and I handed
it right over to the
gentleman in charge of the
NDS and we explained we used
medication for this and he
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
701234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 77/171
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 78/171
someone making arrangements for the NDS to come and
then you would present them with documentation, it
was usually the same NDS person, it took a long
time, you'd tell them about the medications and so
on. Was that how the handover was generally
effected?
A. Yes.
Q. During any of handovers that
you participated in or even heard about from
somebody else, did this NDS representative ever
physically or verbally abuse any of the detainees?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever hear any
detainees being threatened during these handovers?
A. I don't speak Pashtu or Dari,
but no, I never had any indication.
Q. Can you tell us, how did the
detainees seem to behave when they were being
handed over? Did they seem scared or did they ask
not to be transferred or --
A. Never.
Q. -- what was their -- no?
A. Never. They seemed -- some
of them seemed quite delighted. At one time we had
two injured detainees that were to be transferred.
The NDS refused to take one gentlemen because of
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
721234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 79/171
his medical concerned (sic). He was quite
distraught that he didn't get to go with the NDS
and every day he would ask to go with the NDS and
he did his physical therapy walking around so he
didn't limp so the NDS could transfer him.
Q. You referred to one detainee
the NDS refused to take. Were there other
instances they would show up and decline to take a
detainee?
A. There was one other occasion.
The detainee was -- he had suffered severe medical
complications after his IED exploded on him and he
was quite injured by the time the transfer was to
be made, and the NDS were going to refuse because
the paper said that the NDS jail is filthy and the
NDS did not want to be blamed for anything that
might happen to this detainee. And it took a lot
of convincing that he was medically fit to be
transferred. And the NDS did take him at the time,
but under -- they had reservations, that gentlemen.
Q. Sorry, you referred to
something in a paper?
A. That's when the media story
came out about the allegations of what transpired
in the Afghan jails. The NDS gentlemen said, Your
Canadian papers lie. And he was quite indignant
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
731234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 80/171
about what was written in the media.
Q. So because of that he didn't
want to take the --
A. Not because of that. He did
not want to be blamed if anything, if the detainee
would get an infection from the so-called filthy
conditions that the papers wrote about in his jail.
Q. You mentioned some of the
detainees were quite happy -- quite happy might be
overstating it. I don't suppose anybody would be
quite happy to go off to prison, but they didn't
protest at being turned over --
A. Never.
Q. -- to the NDS. Do you know
why?
A. I believe because they could
be bought out of the Afghan jails.
Q. They saw it as a way of
getting a quick release?
A. I believe that is a way of
life in the Afghan system. It is so corrupt that
if you had enough money you could buy people out of
jail.
Q. You had mentioned before
around April 2007 transfers or releases out of
detention facility were suspended for a period of
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
741234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 81/171
time?
A. No.
Q. No? Do you recall the
releases and transfers being suspended?
A. Yes.
Q. What period of time?
A. That was in May.
Q. I think I said around April,
but. Do you know why they were suspended?
A. We were told because the B.C.
Civil Liberties Association and Amnesty
International put in a court order request to stop
all transfers and releases.
Q. And who told you that?
A. It came down, I believe,
through MPHQ. Word of mouth.
Q. When you say it was word of
mouth, does that mean there was no, that wasn't the
official communication?
A. Okay, it was verbally
conveyed to us.
Q. MPHQ, is that task force
headquarters? What headquarters?
A. MP headquarters, task force
military police headquarters.
Q. Task force headquarters,
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
751234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 82/171
okay. And this was in May 2007?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall how long that
suspension lasted?
A. It was weeks.
Q. And do you know where the
order came from to suspend those transfers?
A. I believe it came from the
task force commander and I don't know where he got
his directions from.
Q. At the time the transfer of
detainees was suspended did you have any detainees
in custody?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall how many?
A. Again, the number of
detainees in custody is, has been generally
protected. I think we can talk in generalities.
Q. So you had one or more
detainees in custody. Were they affected by the
suspension?
A. Yes.
Q. Without stating the exact
length of time, did these detainees end up being
held in your facility for a number of days?
A. Yes.
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
761234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 83/171
Q. Was the detainee facility
designed to hold a person for as long as this
detainee was held?
A. Not at that time, no.
Q. What were the conditions like
for this detainee?
A. It was extremely hot.
Q. Did anything happen during
that time that gave you cause for concern?
A. Yes, the mental well-being
for the detainee.
Q. What did you observe that
gave you reason to be concerned about his mental
well-being?
A. At first he had some medical
concerns that were not diagnosed at the beginning.
Then through numerous trips to the medical facility
the doctors were able to finally diagnose and give
him treatment. The heat. And the fact that he
didn't quite understand what -- why he was being
held for such long period, and he was concerned for
his family.
Q. Would you say he was severely
distressed by the heat?
A. I mean, I was severely
distressed by the heat. It was hot.
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
771234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 84/171
Q. What you said earlier is that
it was about 140 degrees and it was miserable for
him. Is that right?
A. There was, yes, radiant heat
in the facility, but we took steps to rectify it by
cutting air holes, giving him cold bottles of
water, cold showers, everything that we could think
of.
Q. A swamp cooler?
A. That eventually came. We put
in a request for that, but we took steps to improve
the situation and rectified the situation
afterwards.
Q. And he was concerned about
who was going to be feeding his family?
A. That's right.
Q. Did he exhibit other
behaviour like screaming and yelling?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he try to injure himself
with a plastic knife?
A. I don't know if he tried to
injure himself but he had a plastic knife in his
hand. We were concerned and myself and another
guard entered into his holding area to take the
knife and we did.
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
781234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 85/171
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 86/171
MR. LUNAU: Page 36 of Sgt.
Utton's interview transcript.
BY MR. LUNAU:
Q. And why couldn't this fellow
be released?
A. Because the order came that
there would be no transfers or release because of
the ongoing court action in Canada. And I believe
the task force commander or somebody related at
DFAIT had rendered that decision to the task force
commander.
Q. Did you communicate up the
chain of command your concerns about this
individual's situation?
A. Every day.
Q. And to whom did you relay
those concerns?
A. It would be Warrant Le Blanc
or Captain Worsfold.
Q. What was the response if any
that you got back?
A. I know Captain Worsfold
brought that up to her immediate chain and she
would tell me she had sent e-mails and she would
show me the e-mails she had with our concerns.
Q. And did those e-mails do
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
801234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 87/171
anything to address --
A. We were told there was no
transfers and there was no releases.
Q. When the suspensions were
lifted eventually what happened to this fellow?
A. He was released.
Q. Was he, because of kind of
behaviour and distress he was showing, was he
videotaped?
A. We had a video camera in the
holding facility and tapes put in every 12 hours,
or if they ran out, when there was detainees in the
facility. But it was very hard to keep your
cameras clean because of the sand and the dust
storms so the quality of the tape, I can't --
whatever. They were videotaped, yes.
Q. So he was videotaped?
A. Oh, yes.
Q. Do you know what happened to
that tape?
A. I believe that tape, I put
that into evidence for safekeeping.
Q. You mean in a lock-up, an
evidence lock-up?
A. I put it into military police
evidence safekeeping, our storage facility for all
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
811234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 88/171
evidence for the military police company in
Kandahar.
Q. Do you know if it was still
there when you left?
A. I put it into evidence in
safekeeping. I turned the custody over to the
evidence custodian. So I don't know. When I put
it in the box it is in safekeeping.
Q. You have mentioned you became
aware of the Amnesty International court action.
A. Yes.
Q. And you mentioned this NDS
fellow had told you about some stories in
newspapers about the conditions in prisons in
Afghanistan. Did you, were you personally aware of
newspaper stories about detainee or potential
mistreatment of detainees that came out April, May
2007 time frame?
A. I recall there was such
articles but I don't remember if I read them all.
I was aware of it.
Q. As far as you can recall, and
I will refer you to one of articles just in case it
refreshes your memory. You see there is a pile of
books there beside you. If you could take volume 3
and go to tabs 5 and 6. Do you have that in front
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
821234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 89/171
of you?
A. Yes. I did not see them. I
don't read the Globe & Mail at that time.
Q. That was what I was going to
ask you. You didn't at that time see these
newspaper stories?
A. I don't read the Globe & Mail
at that time.
Q. Had you read any reports on
the treatment of prisoners or prisons in
Afghanistan that had been published by the
Department of Foreign Affairs?
A. No, but I did read Esprit de
Corps magazine, Scott Taylor's article on
conditions of the Afghan jails.
Q. I haven't seen that article.
Do you recall what Mr. Taylor said?
A. I recall he said yeah, the
conditions were harsh, but the guards live in the
same condition.
Q. Did you have any information,
whether from newspaper articles or having read
reports by Foreign Affairs or the U.S. State
Department or other sources --
A. No.
Q. -- that gave you cause for
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
831234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 90/171
concern about --
A. Never.
Q. -- what would happen to
detainee?
A. Never saw any of those
articles you're referring to and we didn't get a
lot of media other than what we could get on our
DWAN, our open source and that would be the Star or
the Sun. Or we had the CBC channel. So that was
it for current media event reporting.
Q. What about -- have you heard
the name Richard Colvin?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you aware of any e-mails
or other communications he had originated?
A. I only became aware of
Richard Colvin's name on the media reporting that
occurred in December of 2009. I have never heard
of him or seen anything from him that I can recall
before that.
Q. And no one ever spoke to you
about any information he had provided them or --
A. Not --
Q. -- any communications from
him?
A. No.
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
841234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 91/171
Q. Did you eventually become
aware of the agreement that had been signed in May
2007 with respect to handling of detainees and
monitoring what happened to them after transfer?
A. I believe we were told a new
agreement was reached between the Canadian
government and the Afghan government and that the
transfers and releases would occur and there would
be some sort of ongoing monitoring, but I don't
know who was to do it.
Q. Was that a formal briefing
that you were given?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever see a copy of
the May 3rd agreement?
A. No. Until I met with the
Justice lawyers and I was shown this.
Q. After this agreement had been
signed were there any changes made at your level
with respect to how the process of transferring
works?
A. Yes. A member of
Parliamentary Affairs -- that is what we were told,
Parliamentary Affairs, would come to the detainee
transfer facility when detainees were transferred
to the NDS and then on the occasion where that one
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
851234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 92/171
gentlemen, one detainee was held for that period of
time when he was released.
Q. You mentioned the
representative from Parliamentary Affairs and I
have seen elsewhere references to a political
advisor.
A. Yeah, sorry. It wasn't
Parliamentary Affairs, it was POLAD, political
advisor. Yeah, sorry. Retract that Parliamentary
Affairs.
Q. So the political advisor,
after May 2007 this political advisor now shows up
on the scene?
A. Yes, or somebody that was a
political advisor for the transfers, yes.
Q. And did you know who this
political advisor was?
A. No, I never -- I don't recall
his name, if it was given, no.
Q. Did you know who this person
represented and why they were there?
A. I know he represented
somebody in the government and that they were there
to explain the new agreement between the Canadian
government and the Afghan government.
Q. After May 3, 2007, when
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
861234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 93/171
detainees are transferred and this political
advisor was present, what role did he play in the
handover? What would he actually do?
A. When the detainees were being
brought out from the holding area into the area
where the NDS vehicles were, an interpreter would
explain in Pashto or Dari what was going on and the
political advisor had a piece of paper with the
agreement in English and the other side in Pashto.
And they were given a copy.
Q. Did the political advisor, so
far as you're aware, did he or she ever mention
anybody anything to them about torture or that they
wouldn't be tortured?
A. I can't recall. I was -- you
know, I would be busy with other tasks and you
would hear the interpreter going back and forth,
and stuff. But the specifics of a conversation I
cannot recall.
Q. To see if I can refresh your
memory, your transcript at page 81 of your
interview. Do you have that there, sergeant?
A. Yes.
Q. Beginning at line 8 and you
say:
"Yes, it was when all the
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
871234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 94/171
policy came in and whatever
the Canadian government
worked out this is what we
were going to follow. So the
political advisor was there
explaining, you know, to this
detainee, you are going to be
turned over to the Afghan
authorities. You are not to
be tortured. You are not to
be this or that. I don't
know the whole thing, but
these guys are all illiterate
anyways so they are handing
them some document written in
Pashto written by the
Canadian government."
That is why I asked if there was
some, when the political advisor was involved in
the transfer of detainees he or she would have made
reference or given some assurance that they weren't
going to be tortured?
A. They could have. I cannot
specifically recall.
Q. After May 2007 did you learn
of transfers being suspended again? In other words
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
881234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 95/171
was there another suspension after May 2007?
A. I don't believe I can answer
that for security reasons.
Q. At page 88 of your
transcript, beginning at line --
A. Yeah, that --
Q. Five?
A. -- I understand I said that
at the time, but I don't know where I got that
information from and it could have been from
classified means that -- but the interviewers gave
me the impression that everything I said they had
the appropriate security clearances and it would
not be revealed.
Q. I think maybe you and I may
have to have an understanding that if there is an
issue about the security of information your
counsel will object and if your counsel doesn't
object, then I would appreciate it if you would
answer the question.
MS. RICHARDS: In all fairness to
the witness, she is aware and likely more aware
than I of what information she has that is
classified. It is appropriate and indeed she is
required as a public servant and a government
official to raise the issue when she believes her
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
891234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 96/171
information would violate her obligation to
maintain the confidentiality of it. So it is
entirely appropriate that the witness raise those
concerns when they arise.
MR. LUNAU: I think there have
been a couple of instances now where we have had an
objection that something was classified that was
obviously public and contained in the transcript.
I would like to try and come to some understanding
so we are not met with an objection, just
continually met with objections.
MS. RICHARDS: In all fairness, I
don't think she is objecting. I think she is
raising the issue and what Mr. Lunau is doing is
appropriate and is very helpful for the witness to
take her through, so she can see where it has been
vetted and that this information can be publicly
released and she is being cooperative in providing
the information. She is not -- she is advising you
when she thinks there is security concern.
THE CHAIRPERSON: What would have
changed from her interview to now?
MS. RICHARDS: This information
has gone through a section 38 process, where the
Attorney General of Canada has decided what
information can be publicly released.
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
901234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 97/171
THE CHAIRPERSON: But it was
disclosed at the time of the interview, and
subsequently not redacted. So it has never been
treated.
MS. RICHARDS: Sorry, to be clear,
I am not saying the information is protected. She
has a concern. She is raising a concern. And I
think Mr. Lunau is properly taking her through to
show her that that concern has been addressed and
she can give him that information.
But to suggest that a witness
cannot raise before this Commission, a witness who
works in this environment and has an obligation to
maintain the security of information, cannot raise
before the Commission that she is concerned about
disclosing that information I think is not proper.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Any comments
from Mr. Champ, sorry, from your colleague? Mans
first of all I wonder what passage we were
referring to on page 88 and then I will let Mr.
Champ comment on the discussion between Ms.
Richards and --
THE CHAIRPERSON: We are bringing
him in from the back benches.
MR. CHAMP: I agree with Ms.
Richards' interpretation of the act that it is
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
911234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 98/171
proper for the individual themselves to raise the
objection. However, I would suggest or note that
they then have their counsel to perhaps assist them
on whether something is in fact now in the public
domain or not.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Wallace?
MR. WALLACE: I didn't actually
get the sense that there is any disagreement
amongst the parties.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Lunau.
BY MR. LUNAU:
Q. You refer if your transcript
at page 88, and in particular the lines 16 through
21, there is a reference to -- there is a large
portion that is blacked out and then you go on to
say:
"Right there you can see they
have got detainees in the
process and they have been in
there before Christmas
because DFAIT has ordered
they cannot be transferred to
the NDS."
Does that relate to a second
suspension or is that still the suspension in May
2007?
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
921234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 99/171
A. That could be a second
suspension.
Q. Did you learn of this
particular suspension by reading about it on SAMPIS
or an internal military web site?
A. No, I learned from (sic) it
from other classified means.
Q. So this particular suspension
you are talking about, did that take place after
you had left?
A. Yes.
Q. After May 3, 2007 did you
have any knowledge about what was going on insofar
as conducting inspections of Afghan prisons or
facilities?
A. No.
Q. Was the MP company given any
monitoring or inspection responsibilities, after
May 3 agreement?
A. Not that I was aware of at my
level.
Q. Did you ever see any of the
reports that related to inspections or site visits
that were done after May 3, 2007?
A. No.
Q. Can you tell us what SAMPIS
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
931234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 100/171
is?
A. Security and military police
information system.
Q. While you were in
Afghanistan, did you have access to SAMPIS?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have access to all
the information on SAMPIS or only to selected parts
of it?
A. Some reports that perhaps the
NIS work on were sensitized or private information,
so no, you could not see access to it.
Q. It is also my understanding
that information classified -- is it above
protected B -- can't be displayed on SAMPIS?
A. Yes. SAMPIS is encrypted for
protected B information only.
Q. Any of your reviews of
SAMPIS, did you come across any information or any
reports raising concerns about abuse of detainees?
A. No.
Q. If I could ask you to turn to
volume 2 of the books in front of you there, tab 2.
If I could ask you to turn to page 13 of 37 in the
lower right-hand corner, and you will see there.
There is a list of various annexes, some of which
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
941234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 101/171
are blacked out in whole or in part. Annex is a
detainee process flow chart. Annex B, tasks and
responsibilities of JTF Afghanistan staff. Annex
C, solders' actions to be taken on the capture of
detainees. Are these forms that you are familiar
with?
A. Yes.
Q. The form at annex C, have you
seen these before?
A. Yes.
Q. What were these forms for?
A. Sorry?
Q. Page 18 of 37 in the lower
right-hand corner. It is entitled "Soldiers'
actions to be taken on the capture of detainees."
A. Yes.
Q. Who would have filled out
this form?
A. The unit that captured the
detainee.
Q. And then would this form
completed be given to the detainee facility?
A. Yes, all paperwork from the
capturing unit would come forward and it would go
from chain of custody if the capturing unit
couldn't bring them into KAF and it would go to
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
951234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 102/171
whoever brought them into KAF and then come to the
detainee transfer facility.
Q. And then there is an
instruction on the next page, page 19 of 37,
standard of treatment for detainees.
A. Yes.
Q. Is this a document that you
would have seen before?
A. Yes.
Q. The next page, there is a
detainee tag.
A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell me what this
document is?
A. That would be the -- it would
be secured on them. It was similar to the old
prisoner of war tag in the Cold War, when they used
those terms it would be a waterproof paper that the
information would be recorded and it would still be
there and it would be secured on their person.
Q. Page 22 of 37 there is seized
property record for a detained person.
A. Yes.
Q. Is this something that would
be filled out at a detainee facility --
A. Yes.
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
961234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 103/171
Q. -- so it would be filled out
at the detainee facility. And you would do an
inventory of whatever property was taken?
A. Everything.
Q. Then the next at page 24 of
37 there is a witness statement?
A. Yes.
Q. Who would fill this out?
A. The person that either
witnessed some of the activity at the time that
they were detained outside and they would put that,
all that, fill in what they saw. If they saw them
planting an IED or picking up a cell phone when a
com point -- something like that. Just a witness
statement that they saw that brought them to the
attention that this person would be detained.
Q. So it is basically like a
little narrative as to why the person was captured
and what they were doing --
A. Yes.
Q. -- at the time they were
captured? And the next document at 25 of 37 there
is a tactical questionnaire report. Again, is this
something completed at the detainee facility?
A. No, that would be done by the
qualified tactical questioner.
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
971234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 104/171
Q. So this is after the detainee
arrives at the facility?
A. No, it's done at either point
of capture or if it is safe to do so. If it was
done that would -- it was a tactical questioning to
see if they should be questioned further.
Q. Then at page 27 of 37, a
custody record for a detained person.
A. Yes.
Q. Is this something, again, was
it filled out at the detainee facility?
A. No, again, that would be done
by the unit that did the capture and then
subsequently you can see that it says custody
transfers within Canadian Forces elements. So if
it was -- the detainee was brought back to say
other Canadian MPs they would sign. It was like a
custody record that they accepted the custody and
then when they eventually bring them to the
detainee transfer facility I would sign it saying
yes, we accept custody.
Q. Then at page 28, a record of
release.
A. Yes.
Q. This would be filled out when
a person was released outright?
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
981234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 105/171
A. Yes.
Q. If you would just jump over
to the page 33, there is a record of transfer. So
again this would be a form filled out?
A. That would be the NDS, yes.
Q. When a record of transfer was
filled out, to whom would this form be forwarded
to?
A. It would go to MPHQ and
eventually the main detainee file that were held at
the military police headquarters. And I think, I
believe, I can't say for sure, the detainee officer
would review it too, but it was held at MP
headquarters.
Q. If I understand correctly,
basically for each detainee, at least after the
period of this particular standing order, there
should be basically be a bundle of documentation?
A. Yes, there was.
Q. Now I would like to just ask
you some questions about your training before you
deployed. Before you went to Afghanistan, did you
receive any specialized training about detainees,
detainee handling?
A. Not specialized. I went on a
tactical questioner course.
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
991234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 106/171
Q. Did you receive any training
in the Geneva Convention?
A. That's standard training for
every, from primary leadership qualification you
get instruction on that. And yes, we did review
Geneva Convention details on my tactical
questioning course.
Q. Did you attend any of the
training courses that Major Hudson put on?
A. Depends on the location. I
left training early in Gagetown to go on my
tactical questioner course, but I was in Petawawa
for briefings.
Q. Were you there in November
2007 when he put on training on detainee and
prisoners of war issues?
A. Do you have the date?
Q. Not an exact date, I just
have November, 2006.
A. Yes, I was there.
Q. Did you attend -- I didn't
have a date for this, but a training course major
Hudson put on in Petawawa involving treatment of
detainees from, including psychological issues,
media factors?
A. I recall there was training
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1001234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 107/171
in Petawawa and it focussed on the mistakes made at
Abu Ghraib in Iraq and about guards that weren't --
that were employed as military place that shouldn't
have been, and I don't recall all the specifics of
the training but that was the general points of
this wouldn't happen on our tour. We will treat
the detainees with respect.
Q. During any of the training
that you can recall, was there any consideration
about post-transfer treatment of detainees?
A. Not that I can recall.
Q. During your tour in
Afghanistan, did you ever obtain any information or
knowledge that made you believe a police
investigation should be undertaken into the
transfer of detainees?
A. No.
MR. LUNAU: I have no other
questions, thank you.
THE CHAIRPERSON: I think it would
be fair to take 10 minutes. Thank you.
--- Recess Taken at 3:22 p.m.
--- Upon resuming at 3:35 p.m.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Champ?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. CHAMP:
Q. I just have some questions
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1011234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 108/171
for you about your deployment in Afghanistan from,
I believe --
A. I’m sorry, but there is a
camera at the door. When the gentleman walked in,
there was a guy with a camera.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Could we just
take a minute and see what gentleman is out there.
--- Short pause
THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam Registrar,
just for the purposes of the record, who is out
there?
THE REGISTRAR: It’s one of the
media. They are waiting to interview, I believe,
Mr. Lunau, and they are sitting on the side on the
chairs.
MS RICHARDS: Mr. Lunau, I take it
when you meet with them, you can just confirm that
they didn’t take any footage of the hearing.
MR. LUNAU: I can do that.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Could we do that
now just to make sure nothing gets transposed out
of here, if that is the case?
We will break for a few minutes to
get this taken care of.
--- Short recess at 3:38 p.m.
--- Upon Resuming at 3:45 p.m.
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1021234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 109/171
THE CHAIRPERSON: For purposes of
the record, I take it everybody is satisfied
relative to -- made sure there was no breach,
there?
MS RICHARDS: Thank you, yes.
THE CHAIRPERSON: We will leave
that screen in place for whatever time we require
for today and tomorrow so that when the door opens
and closes we don't have to worry about that.
Okay, I am sorry, Mr. Champ, for
the break, but safety is better than none.
MR. CHAMP: Thank you.
BY MR. CHAMP:
Q. Ms Utton, I have a few
questions about you, about your tour in Afghanistan
in 2007. I understand you were there during Roto 3
from, was it February 2007 to July 2007?
A. Yes.
Q. you were sergeant in military
police, the KAF Company, is that right?
A. I was master corporal and
promoted to sergeant, in theatre, in July. I was
in the KAF Military Police Platoon.
Q. Sorry, platoon, right. And
you I understand were involved in the actual
handover of detainees from Canadian Forces' custody
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1031234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 110/171
to the custody of NDS?
A. I did the paperwork and the
disclosure packages for the NDS. Then I would
leave and go outside while the actual -- all the
other briefings were done.
Q. So you would just do the
paperwork for the handover, the package that would
actually be given to the NDS?
A. Yes.
Q. Then it would be another
Military Police officer who would take the detainee
to the actual handover point?
A. The handover point, it was a
holding area where vehicles could come in. Then we
had, like, a little trailer where the meeting with
the NDS and other personnel would take place.
Q. It would occur in a trailer?
A. Yes.
Q. The detainee would be brought
in one door of the trailer, and the NDS would be
already waiting there, something like that?
A. No. The detainee would be in
the holding area until the actual -- they moved
into the NDS vehicles.
Q. So that the NDS vehicle would
come into the compound. They would come into the
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1041234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 111/171
trailer to sort of speak to the Canadian Forces or
Military Police officials. Then, when it came time
to actually do handover, the NDS would come out,
the detainee would be brought out of the compound,
or be brought out of the holding area -- what would
you call it?
A. Yes, the transfer facility,
the holding area, yes.
Q. The holding area, and they
would go directly into the vehicle?
A. Yes.
Q. I am wondering, what kind of
notice would the detainee get that they are going
to be handed over? Do you know?
A. They would be told -- it
depended on the timings we got, but there is a
procedure. They would be taken for a medical, they
would be given a shower, then put back into their
clothing, if it was suitable, and then they would
sit. So they knew something was going to happen.
I can't recall if they were
specifically told they were going to be transferred
to the NDS at the time, but it was usually during
this time period they would be told that the NDS
was there.
Q. Who would be the officials in
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1051234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 112/171
the Canadian Forces that actually do the handover?
I will start, like, maybe from post-May 2007, once
the new agreement came in. Just ranks, maybe?
A. Can I -- I don't know if I
can answer that. It is -- that was --
Q. It is my understanding there
would be a department of foreign affairs official
there, usually?
A. The POLAD was there, after
me.
Q. Right.
A. But before that, no.
Q. So, after May, the POLAD
would be there, and it is my understanding they
would actually -- I think you described this
earlier: they would give a copy of the detainee
arrangement in Pashto or Dari, to the detainee?
A. Yes, it would be the copy of
the agreement.
Q. The POLAD or the department
of foreign affairs political adviser at KAF would
be there at the time of transfer, and then Canadian
Forces officials?
A. Yes.
Q. Among those Canadian Forces
officials at the handoff, would it be a Military
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1061234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 113/171
Police person?
A. I don't know if I can answer
that.
Q. Would it be more than one
Canadian Forces person?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you be present at that
handoff, sometimes?
A. I was there to get the
paperwork signed by the NDS official and then I
would leave, because of cultural -- men-women.
Q. Right. I guess, then, you
wouldn't know what kind of discussion would go on
between, say, the NDS and the Canadian Forces
officials at the time of handover?
A. No, I left to go --
Q. Right. I gather then nor
would you hear what the detainee might be saying or
not saying?
A. The detainees were in their
holding facility until the NDS were ready to accept
the transfer and move him into the vehicles.
Q. They would just be brought
out and put right back on the vehicle?
A. Yes. They would have
blindfolds on.
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1071234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 114/171
Q. They would have blindfolds
on?
A. Yes, for the security of the
camp.
Q. All right. Did you actually
witness that process very many times?
A. Yes.
Q. You actually witnessed the
detainee being brought out of the holding --
A. Yes.
Q. -- facility and put onto the
truck?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever see a detainee
resist?
A. Never.
Q. Never. When you were on
duty, would you have been present to witness all of
the handovers?
A. No. I travelled. I had a
leave, a home-leave travel, where I came back to
Canada for three weeks.
Q. Right. But when you were in
theatre and at KAF, would you have seen all of the
handovers?
A. Pretty much, if I was there.
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1081234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 115/171
Q. Mr. Lunau, for the
Commission, he asked you some questions about what
sort of training or understanding you had before
you got to theatre about detainee handling. I
think you indicated that you did get some training
in Petawawa about detainee handling, is that right?
A. We had some lectures, yes.
Q. It was emphasized to you and
the other Military Police officers that humane
treatment of detainees was an operational
objective?
A. We would follow the Geneva
Convention.
Q. Right. Maybe I was inferring
some thing in what you are saying. When you were
referring to the Abu Ghraib sort of scandal, it was
my understanding that you were suggesting -- and
disagree with me if you want -- that events like
that can really undermine the overall mission.
That is why it was emphasized to Military Police
officers that you have to ensure that detainees are
treated well?
A. No, I think it was an
educational that Military Police personnel were in
charge of Abu Ghraib and this is what happened and
that we had responsibilities to make sure that it
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1091234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 116/171
did not happen on our mission and that we would all
have the tool sets to know that detainees would be
respected in accordance with the Geneva Convention.
Q. What was your understanding
about post-transfer obligations of the Canadian
Forces?
A. I didn't have any
understanding. I was told that we would transfer
them over to the Afghan lawful authority; it would
go through their legal system.
Q. But you understood at some
point in theatre that there were concerns raised by
some in Canada about what was happening to
detainees, post-transfer?
A. There were media reports that
were out, but it was just what the media reported.
Q. Yes, you were aware that
concerns were being raised about what might be
happening to detainees, post-transfer?
A. Yes.
Q. That was a topic of some
discussion in theatre, I gather?
A. It might have been a little
bit but it wasn't like a, you know -- we might have
discussed it, "Hey, look at what the paper wrote."
That was about it.
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1101234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 117/171
Q. Once it was in the paper and
there was this sort of general discussion that you
are talking about, it was never raised or discussed
with anyone about actual obligations on the
Canadian Forces for post-transfer treatment of
detainees?
A. That wasn't at my level, no.
Q. It was never discussed in the
context for you?
A. No.
Q. You spoke about the presence
of the political adviser at the time of transfer.
In KAF, I note there were probably long shifts, I
guess? You would be doing, like -- was it 12-hour
shifts?
A. No, I was on call 24/7.
Q. Twenty-four/seven. What kind
of exposure or interactions would you ever have
with officials of the department of foreign
affairs?
A. None. I didn't know they
were in the camp. If you know anything about
military culture, you stay with your own,
especially Military Police. We are a unique social
group.
Q. You knew they were there at
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1111234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 118/171
the time of transfers, though?
A. Yes, once that policy
started.
Q. Right. Before then, you had
never even seen them?
A. I never even thought about
it.
Q. Then, once the new agreement
came into place and the political advisers started
playing some role, you saw them for that purpose
but that was it?
A. No. When the detainees that
were held beyond the 96 hours, during the lull in
transfers-release, the POLAD actually came up to
the entry control point to watch that detainee
leave KAF.
Q. Do you remember the name of
that POLAD?
A. No, I do not.
Q. It was a male?
A. It was a male.
Q. Was there ever more than one
that you saw?
A. I don't remember. I didn't
pay attention to it.
Q. You spoke earlier about a
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1121234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 119/171
political adviser. Are you distinguishing, there?
A. Sorry, I said parliamentary
affairs, but I think it was a political adviser;
that is the term I meant.
Q. The department of foreign
affairs official?
A. If he was DFAIT; I didn't
know. I knew he was a political adviser; he worked
for somebody in high government, in here, level.
Q. That is all and that was it,
okay. You would not have been involved at all in
tactical questions?
A. No. I went on the course to
understand what it was, the procedures, but I never
did any tactical questioning.
Q. You were responsible for
putting together the packages of materials to go to
the NDS?
A. Yes. We had a disclosure
package that would go to the NDS.
Q. You would do the paperwork.
And would you be responsible for receiving packages
of information back from the NDS on the detainees?
A. No. Never.
Q. Who was responsible for that?
A. I think the detainee officer.
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1131234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 120/171
Q. The detainee officer was a
Major McKay at that time?
A. I believe that is the name I
recall from reading some documents that the justice
department lawyers gave me.
Q. What was your understanding
would happen to detainees, post-transfer?
A. That they would go through
the Afghan court system.
Q. On the basis of what?
A. The Afghan law.
Q. No, but in terms of what
evidence?
A. The evidence that was given
to them in the disclosure package, from the witness
statements to -- I believe they are given witness
statements and a capture report. I can't recall
everything given in disclosure, but they were given
enough of a disclosure package then, yes, to know
why that they were detained by the Canadian Forces.
Q. You have the transcripts
there of your interview with the MPCC investigators
on January 22, 2008?
A. Yes.
Q. I would like to turn you to
page 32; we have been going by the numbers on the
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1141234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 121/171
top. At line 12, as I understand it here, you were
describing the paperwork package that you had put
together for the NDS, is that accurate?
A. Yes.
Q. You say here:
"So I would do the paperwork,
I would do the disclosure
packages to give to the NDS,
with all of the info. That
would be sanitized. We would
take out witnesses' names and
stuff. They would just get,
like, basic information why
they were captured, what
information they had and then
they would get photos and
their medical records and
stuff in sealed envelopes."
A. Yes.
Q. The stuff in sealed
envelopes, that was their personal possessions?
A. I think -- I can't recall.
They would get -- we would -- they would get their
clothing back. We would give them their clothing
if they could still wear it. Sometimes they came
in and their clothing was destroyed, so we would
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1151234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 122/171
give them coveralls. But, yes, they would get
their -- the NDS would take possession of their
belongings, they would sign the inventory and agree
that it was all there, especially with the money,
if they had any.
Then I think their medical records
were put in sealed envelopes because it would be to
safeguard medical information.
Q. To protect their personal
privacy?
A. Yes.
Q. You say here that some of the
information would be sanitized. What would be
sanitized?
A. We would take out the names
of any military members from the witness statements
to protect their names. We would sanitize, so --
Q. You would black-out the names
of the Canadian Forces members?
A. Yes.
Q. Why is that?
A. I don't know. I was told to
do that.
Q. You are a Military Police
officer. How long were you a Military Police
officer?
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1161234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 123/171
A. I am a Military Police NCM.
Q. When were you sworn in as a
Military Police officer?
A. I was given my credentials
in, I think, March of 1989.
Q. For a very long time.
A. Yes.
Q. I am wondering, as a police
officer, when you look at this information that is
provided to the NDS, what do you think they are
relying on to prosecute?
A. There is other information I
wasn't privy to. There is other information given
to them by other elements of the Canadian Forces.
This was just the paperwork that we had, that we
had custody of.
Q. There was multiple packages
going to them?
A. There could have been. I
didn't see everything.
Q. Were you speculating there
was other packages?
A. No, I know there was other
info.
Q. You knew there were other
packages going?
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1171234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 124/171
A. I don't know about
"packages", but there was other information that
they were getting that I did not get that I hold in
the detainee records.
Q. You would agree with me then,
as a police officer, the information that you were
providing to the NDS on its own could never support
a prosecution?
A. I don't know. This was
stuff, it probably had gone through our legal
adviser in KAF, and I received a direction down
about what information would be sanitized and given
to the NDS.
Q. But I am asking you in terms
of as a professional, as a police officer, this
kind of information, where it is secondhand hearsay
and you don't even know the person who said it,
that that is not enough to prosecute someone?
A. I don't know if the Afghan
laws are -- they have different court systems than
we have, so I can only ascertain, what can we do in
Canada.
Q. Did you ever turn your mind
to that?
A. I didn't think about that.
No, I was surviving day by day out there.
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1181234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 125/171
Q. If that is the only
information that was provided to the NDS, you never
turned your mind to how else the NDS might be
trying to obtain information about what the
detainee may or may not have done?
A. I don't know what all
information the NDS was given so, what I gave them,
I did what I was told to do and no, I never thought
about anything afterwards. I just focused on my
tasks, that day.
Q. Had you ever heard about the
NDS before you went into theatre?
A. No.
Q. Have you learned a bit about
them since the time you have been in theatre?
A. Since the time in theatre to
today?
Q. Yes.
A. There has been a lot of stuff
in the paper. I just know that they were the
equivalent of the FBI, in Afghanistan.
Q. Right, the secret police.
A. The FBI. We were told FBI,
or were -- yes, like the FBI, and they were just
their national police force, like -- yes. Not --
well, secret police, but equivalent to the FBI is
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1191234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 126/171
what we were always told.
Q. You learned that after the
new agreement came into place in May 2007 that
there were visits to Afghan prisons by Canadian
officials?
A. I wasn't aware there were
visits by Canadian officials; I was aware there was
agreement that they would be able to. That was in
the agreement, and that they would account for all
detainees turned over after that point.
Q. But during your time in
theatre you never heard anything about what was
happening with those visits?
A. I didn't even know if they
were taking place during the time we heard they
were going to, but I don't know -- no, we never
heard any specifics that who went or what the
conditions were, no.
Q. You never heard about whether
they were ongoing at all?
A. I --
Q. Not even rumours?
A. I think there was some
discussion about who would do it. I can't recall,
but I think it was the detainee officer or they
were going to Corrections Services to come in, but
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1201234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 127/171
not anything specific that it was occurring. Like,
we heard stuff, but I mean, I am lower on the -- I
am not privy to it. My supervisors or superiors
knew, if they didn't tell me.
Q. I was kind of curious if
there was any kind of buzz in camp.
A. It wouldn't be in camp. The
detainee transfer facility was -- we kept that --
that was classified, how it operated and anything
-- and it was within the Military Police and those
who knew it, at KAF headquarters.
Q. If the department of foreign
affairs officials or the Canadian correctional
service officials were hearing that detainees were
being subjected to electric shocks and beaten with
electric cables at the NDS facility, you would not
have heard about that?
A. I wouldn't, no. I don't know
if there were talks -- but if anybody was informed
at headquarters, if it was, they kept it -- that
would have been sensitive information and they
would probably keep it at that level, to who would
need to know. But it certainly never filtered down
to the rank and file.
Q. You don't think that that
information -- if you had had that information, it
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1211234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 128/171
wouldn't have made any impact on how you performed
your job?
A. I would think if that
information came that the task force commander
would have looked into it and ascertained whether
we would stop until it was rectified or seek
guidance from his chain of command, in Canada.
Q. I am trying to think, who was
the task force provost marshal while you were in
theatre, again?
A. Major Hudson.
Q. Major Hudson. Did you ever
have much contact with Major Hudson?
A. Not a lot but, yes, we would
see him and we would see him at the meeting
facilities and when you saw him at headquarters or
if he came to visit the KAF MP platoon.
Q. Because he was about two or
three levels above you in the chain of command?
A. Yes, probably.
Q. Steward, Worsfold.
A. Steward, or Leblanc, Captain
Worsfold. I mean, I had dealings with him, but
they would be through the official chain.
Q. Right. Did you know what
role he played in the detainee transfer decisions?
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1221234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 129/171
A. I don't think he played a
role in decisions. That came from the task force
commander and he conveyed it down through his
chain.
Q. Right. You may not know this
but whether the task force provost marshal -- the
duty of the task force provost marshal was to
provide advice to the commander on transfer
decisions?
A. I don't know that.
Q. Yes. For example, Mr. Lunau
had taken you to the theatre standing orders.
A. Yes.
Q. You wouldn't have had
occasion to really have exposure to that, that full
document, while you were in theatre, I gather?
A. I read them, yes.
Q. In your direct testimony, you
had indicated that the Red Cross and the Afghan
Human Rights Commission were informed upon the
capture of a detainee, is that correct?
A. No. When they got to the
detainee transfer facility, we took steps to inform
them, officially.
Q. Who took those steps? Was it
you or was it someone else?
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1231234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 130/171
A. At the beginning, it was
Sergeant Steward and myself, we would try to e-mail
the Red Cross representative in Kandahar City and
the Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission, but
it was very difficult. Then the detainee officer
took over those duties.
Q. What time did the detainee
officer take over those duties?
A. I think it was in April and
May, in April or May, because --
Q. Around the same time as the
new arrangement came into place?
A. Yes, or it might have been
before that because we streamlined the reporting
process and we created the new database to -- you
know, it was a direct line; CEFCOM had accurate
information when they needed it. So, before it was
a different procedure; slides that would be e-
mailed.
Q. Slides of?
A. Slides that had information
on -- what we would do, like, information on, and
then the information would be e-mailed to CEFCOM.
Q. Then CEFCOM would take care
of informing --
A. I don't know what CEFCOM did.
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1241234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 131/171
Q. But you --
A. CEFCOM, that would be here in
Canada.
Q. Yes, I know, I know, yes.
A. Yes.
Q. But you would have presumed
that CEFCOM was then informing the Red Cross at
that time?
A. No. We were informing them
in theatre.
Q. Okay. I thought you were
suggesting that it changed in April or May, where
you were informing --
A. It did, where the detainee
officer took on more of the duties.
Q. Okay. How would you know if
the Red Cross or the independent human rights
commission actually received your notification?
Would there be a reply e-mail or anything like
that?
A. I only attempted to do it
once and then I think Sergeant Steward had
confirmation. But I know the Afghan Independent
Human Rights Commission visited KAF and the Red
Cross would come along, all the time, to the
detention transfer facility. They would speak with
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1251234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 132/171
the detainees or they spoke with Captain Worsfold,
so there was a constant contact.
Q. Had you ever heard about
difficulties with the Red Cross in the past
receiving information from the Canadian Forces?
A. No, I don't recall. They
didn't seem to have any issues when they came to
visit.
Q. You had also mentioned in
your direct testimony that at some point in the
middle of your rotation the Canadian Forces stopped
battlefield transfers with the ANA and the ANP?
A. I think they stopped all --
yes, captures and releases in the field, and then
the direction was they would all come back to the
detainee transfer facility.
Q. But specifically with respect
to those authorities, the ANP and the ANA, that
occurred at some point?
A. It did, before the previous
rotos and prior to ours.
Q. The previous roto before --
A. It did happen, I think. I
wasn't privy to all information because I wasn't
the I/C.
Q. No, for sure. No, I
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1261234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 133/171
understand. Actually, you have done a great job.
I am surprised that you had as much information as
you did.
During your rotation,
approximately how many detainees were transferred?
A. I can't answer that question.
MS RICHARDS: Again --
MR. CHAMP: I am noting them, for
the record, because we will see whether we receive
them, afterwards.
Q. Can you say a percentage of
detainees, of transfer versus release?
A. There was quite -- I can't
say a percentage, I can't -- I can't really answer
that question, for security reasons.
Q. You were informed at some
point that you couldn't answer that question
because of security reasons, is that right?
A. Yes, I was told not to talk
about those specifics.
Q. In the transcript of your
interview at page 88, there is a mention there, and
this is starting at page 18, that DFAIT had ordered
that detainees could not be transferred to NDS.
A. As I have mentioned before,
that --
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1271234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 134/171
Q. Did you learn about that from
DFAIT?
A. No.
Q. Did you learn about it
officially as part of your job at that time?
A. I learned about it in my
current job, from reading classified information.
Q. Okay, that is fine. You
returned to Canada in July 2007. You assumed your
new job shortly thereafter?
A. Yes.
Q. I guess there would have been
the decompression period, whatnot -- maybe, like,
October or something like that?
A. No. I reported back to work,
with the Military Police Company at CFSU Ottawa in
mid-September.
Q. In September, okay. When you
testified or when you -- not testified, pardon me,
but when you were interviewed about this, saying
that you had learned that DFAIT had ordered that
detainees can't be transferred --
I am trying to frame it in a way
where you can feel comfortable answering it.
When you learned about this order
to stop transfers in around Christmastime of 2007,
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1281234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 135/171
did you at that time learn about the DFAIT
monitoring visits?
A. I can't remember.
Q. You can't remember?
A. I can't recall.
Q. I gather that if you had read
reports that indicated detainees had been subjected
to electrical shocks or beaten with electrical
cables, you probably would have remembered that?
A. I have never read such a
report.
Q. When did you learn that you
might be called as a witness in this proceeding?
A. When I was subpoenaed in
September or October of 2009, and was given my
summons.
Q. How did you receive the
summons? Was it from the department of justice?
A. It was from DND, civil
litigation lawyers.
Q. Ms Hanners(ph), one of those
folks?
A. Meaghan Enright(ph).
Q. Okay. Did you ever receive a
letter from Mr. Alain Prefontaine?
A. I received e-mails, I
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1291234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 136/171
believe. There was something from Mr. Prefontaine
in some of the e-mails.
Q. Once you received your
summons, did you obtain legal advice?
A. Upon getting authority that I
would be entitled to legal advice at Crown expense,
yes.
Q. Did you get advice from the
department of justice or external counsel?
A. It was department of justice.
MR. CHAMP: Ms Cleroux, I am
wondering, we were looking at the exhibits and we
are trying to figure out where one of them might
be, P-21 in particular. It doesn't seem to have
any connection or reference to a document number,
where we might be able to find it.
THE REGISTRAR: P-21?
MR. CHAMP: Yes.
THE REGISTRAR: Did you see it in
any collection?
MR. CHAMP: We haven't. It is
just listed as P-21, so we are not sure how it was
incorporated and where it would be.
THE REGISTRAR: Where is it
listed?
MR. CHAMP: It is listed in the
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1301234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 137/171
exhibit list, Afghanistan Public Interest Hearings,
P-21. We numbered it this morning. It is not part
of any collection. It is loose.
THE REGISTRAR: Are you talking
about document P-1 or Exhibit P-1?
MR. CHAMP: Exhibit P-21.
THE REGISTRAR: P-21.
MR. CHAMP: Frankly, I am not even
sure if I have figured out what these things are,
these main documents for witnesses.
MR. LUNAU: I can explain. What
we have done, instead of trying to deal with how
many black binders of documents --
MR. CHAMP: Right.
MR. LUNAU: -- we have found that
a number of documents are going to be common to all
the witnesses. We have extracted them and put them
into this subset to make it easier to refer them to
the witnesses for everybody to use.
MR. CHAMP: Now I see.
MR. LUNAU: Everything in the
subset is in the big set of black binders.
MR. CHAMP: All the older exhibits
that were entered before are listed in there but,
for example, we don't know where the new documents
are located in terms of the new exhibits.
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1311234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 138/171
MR. LUNAU: P-20 and P-21 are
individual documents. The others, P-22, -23, -24,
if you look at the black binders, you will see that
they are labelled, Collection "A", Collection "B",
Collection "C" and so on.
MR. CHAMP: Yes.
THE REGISTRAR: P-21 is this one.
MS RICHARDS: Were you talking
about the Exhibit P-21?
MR. CHAMP: The Exhibit P-21.
THE REGISTRAR: I believe you said
document no. 21. Would you like a copy?
MS RICHARDS: Sure.
THE REGISTRAR: P-21. You said
there was a cover letter that went with this, from
Mr. Prefontaine.
MR. CHAMP: To Mr. Lunau, you
mean?
MS RICHARDS: Yes. You will
recall that Mr. Prefontaine sent this with a cover
letter and asked that both the cover letter and
this document be filed, if we were to file this
document.
MR. CHAMP: I don't --
MR. LUNAU: Yes. No, I don't take
issue with that. But, in fact, it is not here.
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1321234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 139/171
MS RICHARDS: Okay. So will you
be filing the cover letter to go with it?
MR. LUNAU: Yes. It was not my
intention, to not file it.
MS RICHARDS: No, no, I just --
no, no. I figured it was an inadvertence.
MR. LUNAU: Yes.
MS RICHARDS: I was raising it for
your --
MR. CHAMP: Is there a copy for
the witness? Sorry --
MS RICHARDS: I just raised the
issue of the cover letter because this witness,
just in in fairness to her, to understand how and
why this has been filed with the Commission.
MR. CHAMP: Actually, I am just
going to check. Yes, she was after. Sorry. Yes,
that is fine, sorry. I thought you were on the
list of witnesses.
THE CHAIRPERSON: We can disregard
this?
MR. CHAMP: For now. We are going
to have to figure out where it goes in terms of one
loose document amidst all the binders.
THE CHAIRPERSON: In terms of the
cover letter, we will address that after. Are you
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1331234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 140/171
going to need a couple of minutes, Mr. Champ?
MR. CHAMP: I think I will be done
in a moment. A couple more questions and I will be
all done, Ms Utton.
Q. First of all, the
transcripts, you have had an opportunity to read
those, obviously?
A. Yes.
Q. Is there anything in there
that you had any concerns about or disagreed with
or changed your mind about?
A. I had concerns because when I
was initially interviewed by the MPCC investigators
they told me everything I said they had the
appropriate security clearances and the classified
information I talked about would remain classified.
Since that, it was released to the media, so I had
concerns about that.
Q. But it is redacted.
A. I don't know when it was
released to the media, but I know it was released.
My testimony before the MPCC investigators was
released to the media. There were quotes and
misconstrued quotes.
Q. Right. But you will see that
there are significant portions of your testimony
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1341234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 141/171
that are blanked out, here.
A. Since the section 38, yes.
Q. Right. An unredacted version
was never released, or at least not to my
knowledge.
A. Okay.
Q. If there was, I would like to
see it. Aside from that concern that you have, in
terms of the content of what you said in response
to the questions that were put to you in January
2008, do you have any concerns or disagreements or
reconsiderations?
A. Apparently some of the stuff
was inaudible, so I don't know the validity of
everything that was said because they couldn't
transcribe it from the audio to paper, accurately.
You can see, "(inaudible)" there.
Q. Where it says, "(inaudible)",
you didn't say "inaudible."
A. No.
Q. It is obviously the person
who transcribed it couldn't hear what you said and
has said, "inaudible."
In terms of what is recorded as
your statement, is there anything that you have
concerns about or disagree with?
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1351234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 142/171
A. No.
Q. I gather that you have been
interviewed by Commission counsel prior to today,
to prepare for your testimony?
A. Yes.
Q. When did that occur?
MS RICHARDS: I am not sure how
that is relevant.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Can I hear your
basis?
MS RICHARDS: I do have an
objection. We have an arrangement with Commission
counsel that whether or not witnesses choose to
attend a voluntary prehearing interview is entirely
confidential.
MR. CHAMP: I am not party to
that. I don't see how that would prohibit this
witness from testifying to that.
MS RICHARDS: How and when she met
with Commission counsel is entirely irrelevant to
the matters before you and to the facts of the
complaint.
MR. CHAMP: The purpose of the
introduction of Exhibits P-20 and P-21 was to
demonstrate the concern that witnesses were being
interfered with or perhaps intimidated to
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1361234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 143/171
cooperating with the Commission. Prior to October
2007, to my knowledge, no individuals or
prospective witnesses would agree to speak to the
Commission. In our view, that remains a live,
relevant issue; that is why those exhibits were
entered, to my understanding. As I indicated in my
remarks this morning, that is an issue that I
intend to pursue with a number of the witnesses who
appear here today.
For that reason, in my view, it is
relevant to know when this witness agreed to start
-- agreed to cooperate and be interviewed by
Commission counsel. I do not intend to ask her
questions about her own legal advice about that
issue. But Mr. Lunau is not her counsel and I
can't understand how that would be covered by any
privilege.
MR. LUNAU: The purpose of the
interviews was to allow Commission counsel to meet
with witnesses, determine what kind of evidence
they could offer, how they could help the
Commission with its hearing. It was subject to
certain understandings between ourselves and the
witnesses through their counsel.
The interviews are confidential.
We have told the parties at our monthly updates in
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1371234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 144/171
a general way that interviews were occurring but no
specifics have been disclosed about who was being
interviewed or when they have been interviewed or
what the substance of those interviews was.
THE CHAIRPERSON: You said the
subject matters?
MR. LUNAU: That is right.
THE CHAIRPERSON: When was the
interview, and what else?
MR. LUNAU: The subject matters of
the interview, who was interviewed, the dates of
the interviews, have not been disclosed.
THE CHAIRPERSON: The purpose
behind that?
MR. LUNAU: Behind the interviews?
THE CHAIRPERSON: No, I know the
purpose behind the interviews, but for the
agreements, that none of this information would be
--
MR. LUNAU: There were conditions
--
THE CHAIRPERSON: Conditions?
MR. LUNAU: -- on which witnesses
agreed to be interviewed that were discussed
between us and their counsel, and they were agreed
to, so the interviews could proceed.
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1381234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 145/171
MR. CHAMP: I am totally confused,
Mr. Chair. I will say that I was involved in the
process prior to Mr. Lunau and yourself. I do
recall there were discussions in September of 2007
at which Ms Richards was present, Mr. Wirth as
well, where there were concerns raised by
department of justice counsel about what might be
said in interviews and how interviews might be
conducted and so forth, by Commission counsel.
I am not looking now to ask about
the content, but I fail to understand how the date
of the interview and why the interviews took place
could in any way be confidential. I wasn't party
to that agreement; I don't see why I should be
bound by it.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Why would the
date be so important?
MR. CHAMP: To follow what
happened. Perhaps I could ask Mr. Lunau why P-21
is even in the record. The issue is that Mr.
Colvin raised his concern that he and other
witnesses were being pressured not to cooperate
with the Commission. The fact of the matter is
that prior to October --
THE CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me.
Should we be excusing the witness?
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1391234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 146/171
MR. CHAMP: Yes, it might be --
THE CHAIRPERSON: It might be the
best thing --
--- REPORTER'S NOTE: The witness withdraws
MR. CHAMP: The fact of the
matter, Mr. Chair, is that all cooperation in my
view and in the view of the previous Chair between
the Military Police Complaints Commission and the
department of justice ended abruptly in January of
2008; no further documents were provided and no
more access to witnesses was allowed.
This situation continued until
these hearings, through the spring of last year of
2009 and up into October of 2009. At that point,
there were 25-odd witnesses who were subject to
subpoena, all Canadian government officials or
military officers of some description or other, all
of whom with one sole exception, that of Mr.
Colvin, were refusing to be interviewed by the
Commission, to cooperate with the Commission.
When Mr. Colvin obtained
independent counsel, he then indicated he wished to
cooperate with the Commission, and that caused a
variety of kerfuffles that I don't need to get into
right now. But the concern raised at that time and
it is my understanding remains a concern is whether
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1401234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 147/171
witnesses were being pressured not to cooperate
with the Commission and who was applying such
pressure?
It is my understanding that is why
Exhibits P-20 and P-21 have been introduced into
the record and, as I indicated this morning, this
is an issue that I intend to pursue throughout the
course of the proceeding as I view it as one of the
systemic elements to this entire issue.
I will conclude to what I
understand, right now: I am hearing now for the
first time that there is some agreement between
Commission counsel and counsel for some or perhaps
all of the witnesses that they would not disclose
the dates of the interviews? I wasn't a party to
that and it makes no sense to me why the date has
to be confidential.
THE CHAIRPERSON: In my
understanding, their counsel was a part of that.
MR. CHAMP: I wasn't a party to
it, so, I mean --
THE CHAIRPERSON: You are not
their lawyer, though.
MR. CHAMP: That is right, and I
am asking her questions. If she is here and if it
is relevant to the issue of the integrity of the
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1411234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 148/171
administration of this process, then I should be
allowed to ask that question and the question
should be answered. I don't see how I should be
bound by that agreement or my client should be
bound by said agreement.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Before I go to
Ms Richards, Mr. Wallace, do you have anything?
MR. WALLACE: My client was not in
receipt of this letter. I am out of it on this
one.
THE CHAIRPERSON: You are fine,
thank you. You and your team?
MR. WALLACE: Yes.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms Richards?
MS RICHARDS: Mr. Lunau has
something to say.
MR. LUNAU: Yes. With respect to
why Exhibit P-21 was filed, the history behind that
you may recall is it had been tendered for filing
back in October. At that time, there was an
objection to it being filed on the basis of a claim
of solicitor-client privilege. Those issues were
addressed by the parties through written
submissions.
Subsequently, the government
notified us that it withdrew its objections and
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1421234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 149/171
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 150/171
I would like to hear from
Commission counsel. Is that not a concern for
present Commission counsel?
MR. LUNAU: Is what not a concern?
I mean, I don't understand what this debate is
about, frankly. If you have an issue with respect
to the process, then pursue it. We have filed the
letters, you can make whatever use of them you
wish.
MR. CHAMP: But why were they
filed, Mr. Lunau?
THE CHAIRPERSON: No. Speak --
MR. CHAMP: Do you have an
understanding as to why they were filed?
THE CHAIRPERSON: Speak to me.
MR. CHAMP: Sorry. Mr. Chair, I
am wondering if I could get from Commission counsel
their understanding of why the letter was filed.
That might assist me in going forward.
MR. LUNAU: Would you rather we
did not file it? We filed it so the record would
be complete. What do we intend to do with it? At
the moment, I don't intend to make an issue out of
it. If you intend to make an issue out of it, that
is your prerogative. They are part of the record,
you can put questions to the witness.
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1441234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 151/171
This started with a discussion
about the interviewing of witnesses. Somehow it
has now turned into a challenge as to why have we
filed these letters. I mean, would you be better
off if we had not filed them?
MR. CHAMP: With the greatest of
respect to my friend, I am not sure if I follow the
position, Mr. Chair. It may be helpful for others
to review P-20 to understand what the concern was
when that information was sought to be filed.
The fact of the matter is no one
from the Government of Canada would cooperate with
this Commission until some unknown date. It is our
view that this should be a relevant issue for this
Commission.
Mr. Chair, I will remind you that
in, I believe, its 12-year history this body,
established under Part V of the National Defence
Act, this is only the second public interest
hearing ever called, the second ever. I believe it
was the view of the previous chair that there were
serious concerns about how the Canadian Forces and
the Government of Canada responded to that. We
view that as an issue that persists and it is an
issue that we intend -- apparently Commission
doesn't -- to lead evidence on throughout this
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1451234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 152/171
hearing and make submissions at the end because, in
our view, this is an important body. It is
civilian, one of the only oversight bodies of the
Canadian Forces and of the Canadian Forces Military
Police. It was created in the wake of the Somalia
Inquiry; it is a very crucial body.
To the extent that its processes
might be interfered with, we intend at the very
least to lead evidence on that and make submissions
on at the end of the hearing.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms Richards?
MS RICHARDS: Obviously, my friend
makes some broad and very strong statements to
which we object very strongly. I think that
probably goes without saying.
Having said that, I do want to
correct some of the perhaps misapprehensions that
he may leave you with that there has been no
cooperation. As you know, the Commission during
the investigation stage interviewed over 33
witnesses. In fact, many of the witnesses who are
appearing before you today, including Sergeant
Utton, were interviewed by Commission investigators
and those transcripts are before you. If you want
to know when Sergeant Utton first spoke to the
MPCC, it was on January 22, 2008 and you have
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1461234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 153/171
before you those transcripts.
In terms of what went on and why
the letter was filed with Ms Bokenfehr, I think we
have made our submissions on the record; I don't
intend to recreate those and you do not want me to.
I would agree with my friend that
we stated and it was our position that it was not
necessary to file those letters before the
Commission; the Commission found otherwise.
We do not think it is a legitimate
or real issue that my friend has raised. I can
tell you that we have and continue to enjoy a good
working relationship with Commission counsel. I
have not received any information from Commission
counsel that he currently or his team has a current
concern about the level of cooperation that he is
receiving from the Government of Canada, or about
this very serious allegation that my friend has
made about interference of witnesses.
He said he understood that this
remains a concern; that is certainly not any
information that has been communicated to us.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Champ, if we
boil this down, the issues of the letters, they
have been filed, and what happens in terms of them
and the weight that is applied to them is a whole
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1471234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 154/171
different story. That is another matter for
another day, potentially, to discuss those
exhibits.
In terms of you are looking for,
if I could narrow this down, you want to know the
dates of the interviews. You feel entitled to know
that? Can I narrow it down to that? Close?
MR. CHAMP: Yes, I am going to ask
what were the dates of the interviews. I intend to
ask the witness if she was asked to be interviewed
in the fall and whether she agreed to that or not.
In terms of what my friends have
indicated to you, the best I can do, Mr. Chair, is
commend to you the transcripts of October 14, 2009
and December 10, 2009. I assure you I wasn't the
only one of the view that there hasn't always been
full cooperation from the Government of Canada; it
is not me making this up.
THE CHAIRPERSON: I have read
those transcripts. You want to ask if the witness
was interviewed in the fall? What else do you want
to ask?
MR. CHAMP: I want to ask her if
she was asked to interview in the fall. I presume
she will probably say no. I will ask her why she
didn't participate. She will indicate, I presume,
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1481234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 155/171
that she did so on the advice of her counsel. I
will ask her --
THE CHAIRPERSON: Slow down, one
second -- participate? Why she did not
participate?
MR. CHAMP: Why she didn't
participate, and then I will ask her when she was
interviewed by Commission counsel.
THE CHAIRPERSON: On these points,
what other questions did you have on this issue
that we are dealing with?
MR. CHAMP: I will ask her if
anyone suggested to her that she should not
cooperate with the Commission and, if so, why.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Anything else?
Is that about it?
MR. CHAMP: That is it.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Of those
questions, Ms Richards and Mr. Lunau, which of
those questions breach your agreements that you
have had, or the understanding between witnesses
and counsel?
MS RICHARDS: What I would say is
this: Whether or not a witness chooses to attend a
prehearing interview, it is entirely voluntary.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1491234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 156/171
MS RICHARDS: If Mr. Champ is
trying to infer something improper for the witness
refusing to attend that, that is our concern. If
he is asking this panel to draw some kind of
negative inference against a witness who exercised
their rights, their constitutional rights not to
attend a voluntary interview, I have a real problem
with that.
If the nub of what he wants to ask
is, "Has anybody ever suggested to you that you
should not cooperate with the Commission?", I have
no problem with him asking that question. He
doesn't need to ask the remainder of the questions.
He can ask, if she has been asked or felt pressured
not to cooperate with the Commission. And I think
that gets him where he wants to go.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Lunau?
MR. LUNAU: I have no difficulty
if my friend wants to ask that question, if Ms
Richards doesn't object to it.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Which is the
one? Repeat that again that you were saying, Ms
Richards?
MS RICHARDS: He can ask if anyone
has suggested or encouraged her not to cooperate
with the Commission.
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1501234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 157/171
THE CHAIRPERSON: Any further
comments or submissions?
MR. CHAMP: No.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead.
MR. CHAMP: Yes. I don't know if
I have heard any reason why we can't know the date
of the interview. Frankly, in my view, I think it
only supports my submission, but --
MR. LUNAU: There are certain
things that are the workings of the Commission that
are carried out by Commission counsel. This is the
Commission's inquiry; we are the ones who decide
who we are going to summons, we are the ones who
issue the summonses, we are the ones who try to
interview the witnesses that we have summonsed.
Now, frankly, I don't know what
the hang-up is about the dates. I don't see what
that is relevant at all. What my friend wants to
know is, "At any time were you ever told or advised
not to cooperate?" I don't see what the date of an
interview has to do with that.
If the Commission decides
otherwise or Ms Richards thinks it is relevant in
some way, I am in your hands. But what I am
concerned about is protecting what we do as
Commission counsel to prepare this case for
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1511234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 158/171
presentation to the panel. There are certain
things that are part of the workings of the
Commission in terms of dealing with witnesses.
MS RICHARDS: I would only add to
that, members of the panel, that, in the opening,
one of the prevailing issues that you have said, or
concerns that would guide this Commission in how
they handled this hearing was respect and dignity
to the witnesses. Putting each and every witness
on the stand and allowing Mr. Champ to cross-
examine them about when they met with Commission
counsel, on what date and why, does not respect the
dignity of those witnesses who are coming before
this Commission.
THE CHAIRPERSON: We are going to
take five minutes, to have a discussion with my
partner here. Actually, at five o'clock, we will
be back.
--- Short recess at 4:50 p.m.
--- Upon resuming at 5:00 p.m.
THE CHAIRPERSON: If I may,
briefly, we have had some discussions relative to
this matter. Certainly we recognize, even going
back to the -- from my point of view, the
transcripts of the testimony that was on the 10th
and the 14th, this issue of cooperation of
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1521234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 159/171
government was raised back then.
I can also say that certainly the
issue relative to cooperation between MPCC, the AG,
or the government, and counsel has certainly been a
dynamic situation. We have seen many changes in
the last several months, much of which I would say
are very positive in terms of information and such.
In regards to the issue of the
questions regarding the witness that you are
looking at, Mr. Champ, whether or not you agree or
disagree, the witnesses have come forward here and
they have that right to independence in terms of
they can consent to an interview if they want or
not; that is entirely up to their right. They
could come here without interviews or they could
come with six interviews. They could come in cold.
The issue of the interviews I think is something
that that witness holds the cards to.
Having said that, the witnesses
have come forth here with some understandings that
between their counsel, counsel for the government
and counsel for the Commission, that they would not
deal with the issue of the subject matter, when it
was and who was interviewed and who was present at
the interviews, and not to disclose those dates --
and that is the "who."
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1531234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 160/171
I am going to, and this panel is
going to continue to treat that witness with the
agreement and the understanding and the respect
that they have come forward under those conditions.
Now, having said that, as we move
forward, this issue may not die in terms of if
counsel can ever reach some agreement as to the
future in terms of how witnesses believe they are
coming forward and whether counsel or not can reach
different agreements in terms of dates and whatnot,
but at this stage, I am going to say no. I am
going to say that you cannot ask that question.
To go back to the issue of
government interference, I will say go ahead and
ask the question: Did anyone suggest that he or
she should not cooperate and if so, why? -- you can
ask that question. But I am going to restrict you
from asking the questions relative to if she was
asked to participate in an interview in the fall,
why she didn't participate or, if she did, and when
she was interviewed by counsel, so around those
issues.
But the issue going to the heart
of where you are talking about some of the facts
around the lack or threatening or the cooperation,
you asked that, and I think everybody here is
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1541234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 161/171
agreed that that question can be asked. And how
that gets pursued into the future will be another
story in terms of other witnesses.
But I would ask that counsel
consider just revisiting that kind of understanding
for witnesses so that we may or may not run into
this again with other witnesses. Having said that,
we are prepared to have the witness come back in
and you can restrict your questions on that
particular point to that question.
--- REPORTER'S NOTE: Witness returns
THE CHAIRPERSON: I apologize for
the delay in keeping you, but we had a couple of
issues that we had to clear up regarding the issue.
Mr. Champ, if you can pick it up
from where we were?
MR. CHAMP: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
In these circumstances, we have no further
questions for this witness.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Mr.
Wallace?
MR. WALLACE: Yes, thank you, Mr.
Chair.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. WALLACE:
Q. Sergeant Utton, my name is
Mark Wallace. I am here representing Retired Navy
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1551234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 162/171
Captain Steven Moore who, at the time you were in
theatre was the Canadian Forces provost marshal. I
am sort of setting up who I am and why I am asking
questions.
I only have a couple of questions
for you. You indicated in your evidence in chief
that during your training, which I presume was your
predeployment training, one of the things that was
brought home to you was that the detainees were to
be treated with respect, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Yes. Throughout your
training, the fair and humane treatment of
detainees was a very high priority, and that was
brought home to you, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. While in theatre, those views
did not change, correct?
A. No.
Q. It was still a very high
priority?
A. Yes.
Q. I want to refer you to, and
you referred to it earlier, in Volume 2 at tab 2,
the Theatre Standing Order 321 that was in place on
May 27, 2007. That is the document that Mr. Lunau
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1561234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 163/171
took you to earlier this afternoon.
I want to draw your attention to
the second page, paragraph no. 6. I want to read a
passage to you and get your comments on it, please.
I am referring you to the last sentence of
paragraph 6, the paragraph entitled, "Commander's
Intent." I will read this to you:
"Under the Third Geneva
Convention, the treatment of
detainees is a national
responsibility and it is of
the utmost importance that
Canadian Forces personnel
deal with detainees in a
manner that reflects credit
on Canada at all times."
Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Is it your belief based on
your experience in theatre that Canadian Forces
personnel acted in a manner consistent with this
set of principles?
A. Yes.
MR. WALLACE: Thank you. Those
are my questions.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead.
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1571234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 164/171
MS RICHARDS: Thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS RICHARDS:
Q. Sergeant, I have a few
questions that I wanted to go back on, to follow up
on and clarify from the testimony that you gave
earlier.
My friend, Mr. Champ, had asked
you about your access to reports from foreign
affairs, prison reports from foreign officials who
had gone in. You referred to that information as
sensitive and would have been provided on a need-
to-know basis. I am wondering if you could
explain, particularly given your experience as a
security officer, what you mean by sensitive
information and what you mean by, "on a need-to-
know basis"?
A. That information, if it was
related, would go through the task force commander
at a higher level and it would more than likely
have been classified, at least secret, and that
anything classified as sensitive, if -- to get out
to people that are authorized with the need to
know, it could be exploited by a foreign
intelligence services, or such, or cause
detrimental damage to the national security of
Canada; that would be sensitive, classified.
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1581234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 165/171
Q. If something was classified
as secret, am I correct that you would have to have
the requisite security clearance at a secret level
to receive that information?
A. Yes, and the need to know.
Q. And the need to know. Can
you explain? We always talk about the need to
know; are you able to explain other than the
obvious what that means?
A. That, if it was classified
information, the appropriate security clearance
would be required and that you would have to have a
direct need to know this information; it is not
something that goes out based on your position or
title. You would actually have the need to know to
have access to the information. Just based on
people's positions, they are not given all
classified information. It is a need to know.
Q. Thank you. You also
testified and spoke about the detainee officer. Am
I correct that the detainee officer was not a
Military Police member?
A. No.
Q. Sorry, I asked --
A. Sorry, you are correct.
Sorry, he was not an MP member.
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1591234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 166/171
Q. You were asked some questions
about your training predeployment and about the
Geneva Convention. Isn't it true that Geneva
Convention is part of the training, the basic
training for all Military Police?
A. I believe it is every soldier
deploying is given briefings on it, and it is part
of the -- you get Geneva Convention and law of
armed conflict training in leadership levels when
you progress through your training cycle.
Q. You had also refereed to the
fact, very early on in your testimony this
afternoon, that you knew that NIS were conducting
investigations. Am I correct that you were
referring to the fact that they were conducting
investigations regarding detainees?
A. I knew something. They were
doing investigations with something because they,
now Chief Warrant Officer Watson would come and
take detainee files, just take them, or say, "I
need these detainee files," and we didn't ask
questions. We would know it was -- there was
something. I assumed there was an investigation
ongoing.
Q. Thank you. Finally, the last
point I wanted to clarify was about the article by
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1601234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 167/171
Scott Taylor in, "Esprit de Corps" that you had
referred to?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you have your transcripts
in front of you, still?
A. Yes.
Q. Turn to page 101. I am going
to wait a minute so that the members can --
Look partway down, at line 11.
You say here:
"Because I can recall reading
in the Esprit de Corps
magazine about Scott Taylor
and everything. And actually
he had some photos in there
and there was actually our
first detainee to be
transferred, his photo was in
there and he is sitting there
and he looked fine to me, in
fact, a little smile on his
face. So, I mean, Scott
Taylor went there
independently on his own. He
didn't get the Canadian Armed
Forces to take him, right? --
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1611234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 168/171
so he went in and did that
article on his own and he was
saying, you know, if the
deals are not nice, but it is
what they are ... and I don't
recall him saying that they
were being tortured in
there."
Does that accurately reflect your
recollection of that article that you were talking
about?
A. Yes.
MS RICHARDS: Thank you. Those
are all my questions.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Lunau?
MR. LUNAU: Nothing further, sir.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Do we have
anything further for this witness, then? I wish to
thank you very much for your time and appreciate
you being here. I know the lateness of the day and
the hour in which we were able to structure this,
so, I thank you. You are free to leave.
I want to briefly discuss for
tomorrow morning. We are in a position to, Mr.
Lunau, for a second witness, first thing tomorrow
morning?
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1621234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 169/171
MR. LUNAU: That is right. The
witness tomorrow will be Captain Bouchard; the same
arrangements will apply as for Sergeant Utton.
Captain Bouchard will be testifying in French.
Appearing tomorrow as Commission counsel will be
Danielle Barile(ph) and Nigel Wershman(ph).
THE CHAIRPERSON: Arrangements
have been made for the timing, and that? Mr.
Bouchard will be in here? I guess you have done
that?
MS RICHARDS: I will. Because it
is in French, it is also a different member of our
team. It will be Nathalie Benoit who will be here
tomorrow. I have to go and speak to Ms Benoit to
bring her up to speed. But we will coordinate all
of that.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Yes, and
we have translation services for tomorrow, as well.
Mr. Berlinquette will lead the French portion for
tomorrow.
Having said that, we are going to
start at nine o'clock? The witness can be here for
then?
MS RICHARDS: As far as I know. I
have to go back to the office and double-check
everything.
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1631234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 170/171
THE CHAIRPERSON: How is our court
reporter for nine o'clock tomorrow. We are all set
for tomorrow?
THE REPORTER: We are supposed to.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Nine o'clock.
We will adjourn till nine o'clock tomorrow morning.
Thank you.
--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5:17 p.m.
on Tuesday, April 6, 2010, to be resumed
at 9:00 a.m. on Wednesday, April 7, 2010.
ASAP Reporting Services Inc.(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
1641234
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
5
6
7
8/9/2019 PIH Hearing Transcript.april 6 2010
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/pih-hearing-transcriptapril-6-2010 171/171
I HEREBY CERTIFY THAT I have, to the best
of my skills and abilities, accurately recorded
by Stenomask and transcribed therefrom, the
foregoing proceeding.
Marc Bolduc, Stenomask Reporter
and
123456
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
Recommended