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IN THE SUPREME COURT OF OHIO
THE STATE OF OHIO ex rel.,LUCAS COUNTY REPUBLICANPART^.' EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE
ItI.LATOR,
vs.
JON M. I-IUSTED,OHIO SECRETARY OF STATE
RESPONDENT.
CASE NUMBER 2014-1123
Original Action in Mandamus
EVIDENCE - Volume I
DEPOSITION OF SCOTT P. BORGEMENKE
WILLIAM M. TODD (#0023061)Law Offices of William M. Todd, Ltd.137 East State StreetColumbus, Ohio 43215Phone No.: (614) 545-6311Fax No.: (614) 545-6356E-mail: wtodd('&dvilliamnitodd.com
Counsel for RelatorLucas County Republican Party
f.. . . ^;.,1 ,. . . .
f l : S :. ._....^'i h J
? Y :• S : ^ .! -; i`^ ^^.i •^ : S ^ _, t . ..;.'^% ^ ^_11-1 N - J u"l . .
MICHAEL DEWINE (0009181)
Ohio Attorney General
TIFFANY L. CARWILE (0082522)*
* Counsel of Record
RYAN L. RICHARDSON (0090382)Assistant Attorneys GeneralConstitutional Offices Section30 East Broad Street, l6th FloorColumbus, Ohio 43215Tel: 614-466-2872Fax: 614-728-7592tiffan,,7 caruile(&,ohioattornevg^ncraL^ovryan.richardsonnohiaattor^^ey^eneral. ^ov
Counsel for RelatorOhio Secretary of State Jon Husted
CERTIFI:CATE C?F SERVICE
I hereby certify that on this 10th day of October, 2014, a copy of the foregoing Relator's
Evidence Volume I- Deposition of Scott P. Borgemenke was served via hand delivery upon:
Tiffany L. Carwile (0082522)Counsel of RecordAssistant Attorney GeneralConstitutional Offices Section30 East Broad Street, 16t}' Floor
Columbus, Ohio 43215
By: /s/ William M. ToddCounselfor RelatorLucas County Republican Party
1
IN THE SUPREME COURT OF OHIO
- - - - -
State of Ohio, ex rel.
Lucas County
Republican Party, •
Relator,Case No. 14-1123
VS.
Jon M. Husted, Ohio
Secretary of State,
Defendant.
- - - - -
DEPOSITION OF SCOTT P. BORGEMENKE
Taken at Law Offices of William M. Todd
137 East State Street
Columbus, OH 43215
September 5, 2014, 10:16 a.m.
Spectrum Reporting LLC
333 Stewart Avenue, Columbus, Ohio 43206
614-444-1000 or 800-635-9071
www.spectrumreporting.com
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A P P E A R A N C E S
ON BEHALF OF RELATOR:
Law Offices of William M. Todd, Ltd.
137 East State Street
Columbus, OH 43215
By William M. Todd, Esq.
ON BEHALF OF DEFENDANT:
Attorney General's Office
Constitutional Offices Section
30 East Broad Street, 16th Fl.
Columbus, OH 43215
By Ryan L. Richardson, Esq.
Jordan S. Berman, Esq.
Tiffany L. Carwile, Esq.
ON BEHALF OF DEFENDANT:
Ohio Secretary of State
180 East Broad Street, 15th Floor
Columbus, OH 43215
By David W. Bowling, Esq.
Matt Walsh, Esq.
ALSO PRESENT:
Kelly Bensman
Jon. Stainbrook
Meghan Gallagher
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Friday Morning Session
September 5, 2014, 10:16 a.m.
S T I P U L A T I O N S
It is stipulated by counsel in attendance that
the deposition of Scott P. Borgemenke, a witness
herein, called by the Relator for
cross-examination, may be taken at this time by
the notary pursuant to notice and subsequent
agreement of counsel, that said deposition may be
reduced to writing in stenotypy by the notary,
whose notes may thereafter be transcribed out of
thepresence of the witness; that proof of the
official character and qualification of the notary
is waived.
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I N D E X
Examination By
Mr. Todd - Cross
Ms. Richardson - Cross
Mr. Todd - Further Cross
Relator Exhibits referred to
Exhibit - Hearing Officer' s Report &Recommendati.ons, 6-4-14
Exhib;t B- Letter to Stainbrook from Husted,
6-24-14
(No exhibits were marked.)
Page
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159
160
Page
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SCOTT P. BORGEMENKE
being first duly sworn, testifies and says as
follows:
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. TODD°.
Q. Good morning, Mr. Borgemenke. Do you
mind if I call you Scott? Your last name is so
long it takes her --
A. It is. It is.
Q. Is that all right?
A. Well, let's start with Mr. Borgemenke
for a while.
Q. Okay. That sounds good.
Can you tell us, Mr. Borgemenke, your
full name?
A. Scott Patrick Borgemenke.
Q. Okay.
A. B, as in boy, O-R-G-E-M-E-N-K-E.
Q. And where do you live, Mr. Borgemenke?
A. 8830 Birgham Court, Dublin, Ohio 43017.
Q. Okay. And where are you employed?
A. The Ohio Hospital Association.
Q. And what is your position there?
A. I am the senior vice president for
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advocacy and communications.
Q. And how long have you been in that
position?
A. 18 months.
Q. Roughly when would that have been,
sometime in the middle of --
A. I think April -- May 1st. Let's use
May lst. It might have been a week before, but
May 1st.
Q. May lst, 2013?
A. Yeah, last year.
Q. Okay. Let ' s go back a few years and
ask where did you receive your undergraduate
education?
A. Ohio University.
Q. And did you receive a degree there?
A. Yes,
Q. And in what year was that?
A. 1991.
Q. And what degree was that?
A. Bachelor of Arts in economics.
Q. Following receipt of the Bachelor of
Arts in economics in 1991, did you go on for any
further education?
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A. I started grad school, Ohio University
economics, that I didn't complete. And I took a
job at the Statehouse.
Q. Okay. And about what time would that
have been, roughly? I know it's a long time ago.
A. March '92.
Q. And when you took a job at the
Statehouse, what were you doing?
A. Hold on a sec. I was special assistant
to the senate president, Stan Aronoff. Primarily
budget work.
Q. Okay. And how long were you in that
position?
A. Two years, three years. Three years.
I'm trying to think when Aronoff -- whenever
Aronoff's term limited is when I left.
Q. So roughly three or four years?
A. Yeah.
Q. What did you do after that?
A. I went to work for the Cincinnati
Business Committee.
Q. Which is what?
A. It is a group of -- it's a CEO
organization in Cincinnati focused primarily on
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Cincinnati Public Schools and economic development
in downtown. Very similar to the group here in
Columbus.
Q. Similar to the Columbus Partnership?
A. The Partnership group, yeah, yeah.
Q. And how long were you there?
A. A couple years.
Q. And how about after that?
A. Bob Taft, chief policy advisor.
Q. And what was Bob's elected office at
that time?
A. He was Governor Taft. I'm sorry.
Q. Okay. He was a lot of things.
A. No. That's fair enough. Fair enough.
Q. And what year were you with Governor
Taft's office?
A. '98 to the end of '99.
Q. Following your work with Governor Taft,
what did you do?
A. Political consult -- political lobbying
consulting business.
Q. And one that you owned?
A. Yes.
Q. And operated?
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A. Yeah.
Q. And how long did you do that?
A. Four years.
Q. Following that, what did you do?
A. Left, became chief of staff for Jon
Husted when he became Speaker of the House.
Q. Roughly what year was that?
A. I don't know. But the fact book has
it.
Q. Would have been easier if we just got
your resume. I didn't know you did --
A. Yeah.
Q. You just don't seem to be able to hold
a job.
A. I cannot hold a job. I cannot hold a
job.
Q. Do you remember roughly --
A. When was he elected -- he would have
been -- Householder would have been term limited
out.
Q. '6 -- that would have been '6, '7
maybe?
A. Sure.
Q. Somewhere around there?
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A. And if it's not correct, then I can get
you the resume if that would be fine.
Q. Yeah. Because I think Speaker
Householder's term limited out at the end of 2006.
A. Yeah.
Q. And how long did you stay there?
A. Four years.
Q. And what you did do at that point?
A. I went -- actually had a special
opportunity to run the Preakness. My father was a
jockey, so I got to run the Preakness Stakes in
2001.
Q. That's very cool.
A. I got to --
Q. 2001 or 2011?
A. I guess it would have been 20 -_ I
don't know. Big Brown won the race, so we can
figure that out, too.
Q. Okay. And after that, what did you do?
A. I came back to Ohio, restarted my
political consulting business.
Q. Okay. And how long did you do that?
A. A couple years. And then when Husted
became -- well, that's while Husted was in the
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Senate. And then I became his Chief of Staff and
Assistant Secretary of State when he became
elected Secretary of State.
Q. Okay. Let me go back and ask you to
clarify. When Secretary Husted took office, you
joined the administration?
A. Secretary of State's -- just like Bob
Taft.
Q. Yeah. Yes.
A. Yes, I joined his administration.
Correct.
Q. Okay. And that would have been 2011?
A. Led the transition team, so it would
have been --
Q. Late 2010, early 2011?
A. Yeah.
Q. Okay. And when you were withSecretary
Husted's office, what was your -- what was your
position?
A. I was the Chief of Staff.
Q. Chief of Staff?
A. And the Assistant Secretary of State,
which is established in Code.
Q. Okay. What were your responsibilities
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in that position?
A. You know, run the day-to-day -- run the
day-to-day staff, run the day-to-day office,
oversee the legislative communications, oversee
press operations, oversee the business services
operations, along with the statutory requirement
when the Secretary is out of state.
Q. You would step in?
A. Sometimes things happen and you have to
sign papers. Every once in a while things happen.
I think it happened a couple times.
Q. I remember when we did that with Monty
Lobe when
A. Yeah. Monty would have been in the
same role. Except he actually made him the
Secretary of State I think for a period of time.
Q. I think we had recommended that he do
that for several months.
A. Yeah. I think that's right.
^. Off the record.
(A short recess is taken.)
Q. Okay. Let's talk a little bit about
Lucas County. When you came into office in --
with the administration with Secretary Husted in
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2011, were there issues that had arisen with
regard to Lucas County Board of Elections?
A. There have been issues arisen with
Lucas County Board of Elections for -- since 2002.
And so it's just -- it's constant. It's a
cultural issue up there. it's unfortunate, but
it's something --
Q. Goes all the way back to Bernadette Noe
if I remember correctly.
A. Yeah. And it may go back -- depending
on who you talk to, it may go back to World
War II. But, yeah, there have always been issues
up there. There were issues brought forward, I
think some from Mr. Stainbrook, some from the
Republican Party, some from -- I mean just about
everybody up there had a complaint about the Lucas
County Board of Elections.
Q. And if I remember correctly, that --
right at the time when you came in, in early 2011,
there was a need to replace the then director.
A. Yeah. I think what happened was we
were hearing -- you know, it's interesting.
Eighty eight county boards, there were really
three that we hear from on a regular basis: Lucas
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County, Summit County and Putnam County. Those
were the three counties.
Q. Putnam County?
A. Putnam County. Those were the three
counties that came up very frequently with issues.
Many of those issues are based on, you know,
personnel issues, personality issues, operational
issues. And so Lucas County was one of the first
ones that we went up to. And I believe -- and I
certainly can stand corrected -- I believe a lot
of those issues were brought forward by
Mr. Stainbrook and the Republican Party and the
way in which things were happening up there. We
sent a group up at the time to, you know, kind of
kick the tires, knock around, see what the issues
were, you know, what were real issues and what
were made up issues. And by made up issues I mean
exaggerated issues.
Q. Right.
A. I don't mean made up factually. I mean
exaggerated issues. But did those issues affect
the outcome of the election. And in the course of
doing that, we found that I think -- I'm going to
miss her name, Linda --
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Q. Linda?
A. I want to say Rice, but that might not
be her name.
Q. Linda Hodge?
A. Linda Howell.
Q. Linda Howell.
A. And Jeremy -- Jeremy was the
Republican. That they had violated a directive I
think that was issued by Secretary Brunner, and it
was pretty obvious that they had violated that
directive.
Q. Something to do with provisional ballot
counting, if you recall?
A. I'm going to say the answer's yes, and
I'm about 80 percent confident that that's right.
Q. ®kay.
A. Where to count them, how to sort them,
when to count them. Something procedurally like
that.
i Q. That's not been a controversial issue
in Ohio at all, has it?
A. That's right.
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
Q. Okay. You went up there to kick the
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tires early in 2011, found the need to have the
I Board's director replaced and deputy director
apparently?
A. I believe that's correct.
Q. When's your next direct encounter with
issues at the Lucas County Board of Elections?
A. Hourly.
Q. Hourly?
A. The calls never stop.
Q. Really? From whom? Everybody?
A. Republican Party, Democrat Party,
warehouse supervisors, people who defended
Ms. Howell -- hourly's an exaggeration.
Frequently. Issues from -- you know, as much as
proppi.ng warehouse doors open that shouldn't be
open to iPhone pictures of how high the walls
should be and should the gates be -- should the
gates protecting the machines be up to the wall or
should they just be, you know, three-quarters of
the length. All of those issues.
Q. Fascinating.
A. Fascinating and confusing.
Q. Oh, absolutely.
And that did not cease when Linda
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Howell was replaced as director?
A. I guess to be -- to be frank, there
were peaks and valleys. But, no, there was always
something going on up there. And whether it was
tangible or not tangible, it was very tough to
distinguish because many of the stories that came,
they kind of -- I think dealing with the county up
there was much li.ke entering a calculus class
midterm in that you didn't have the framework or
the background or the genealogical history to
understand all the problems. So you kind of
started in the middle, tried to listen, figure out
which problems were there, which were not there.
And I don't think it was just since this
administration. I think those issues have been in
existence for a while.
Q. Predate -- as we discussed, it predated
Secretary Husted's service as Secretary of State?
A. Yeah.
I Q. When Linda Howell was replaced, I think
it was your testimony that there were continuing
issues after that?
A.
Q-
i
There were continuing complaints.
Okay. Anyone in particular who would
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make those complaints? I know you mentioned that
they came from a variety of sources, but can you
remember anybody specifically?
A. I'm trying to remember the names. The
gentleman up there was a Board member, I think he
owned some nursing homes. I just don't remember
his name. I'm sure somebody else can help me fill,
in the blanks. He would have complaints.
Mr. Stainbrook would have complaints.
Q. Richard Rothenbuhler, would that be it?
A. Ben -- no -- well, no, Ben really
didn't have complaints. Ben
Q. Ben Marsh?
A. Ben Marsh. Oh, gosh, his name, I just
forget his name.
Q. Patrick Kriner?
A. Patrick Kriner. Mr. Stainbrook.
Undisclosed e-m.ails from I think it was the LCRP,
which I believe is the Lucas County Republican
Party.
Q. Uh-huh. But just a never ending series
of complaints about problems at the Board and the
function -- and the day-to-day function of the
Board?
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A. I would say a constant confusing
dialogue with no chronological order and very
difficult to sort through what folks were talking
about.
Q. Were any of these complaints and so on
that you were receiving or the Secretary's office
was receiving brought to the attention of the
Board members up there?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. Constantly. They were making them.
Q. Oh, the Board members were making the
complaints?
A. Sure. Sure.
Q. And was it a situation that because of
the bipartisan nature of the Board that certain
issues couldn't be resolved?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. No. I think they were chosen not to
resolve, be resolved.
Q. What do you mean when you say that?
A. Let me make sure I say this the right
way. The structure in Ohio on how Lucas -- how
boards are structured are odd. Parties make
recommendations. Those recommendations go to the
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L; Secretary of State's office. Once they were
accepted or rejected, you know, sometimes you get
> four of four people on the Board and by design,
they've been fighting for 20 years, and they're
supposed to get together and pass things on
majority vote. It works in many counties, other
counties it doesn't. But they're a fully
autonomous Board. They're paid for by the county.
They have the ability to operate by Robert's Rules
of Order or Masons rules of orders. Anything that
comes to their attention, they have open meetings,
they have open meeting laws, and those complaints
are dealt with at the county level. As you know,
Secretary of State's office is not the counsel to
the boards of elections. The counsel is the --
Q. The county prosecutor?
A. -- county prosecutor. So these are the
issues where with the exception of kind of the
appointment and the general oversight from the.
Secretary of State, the day-to-day management, the
stories, they're all local and -- and then -- and,
Mr. Todd, I guess it would be much like your law
firm. You give me a call, you tell me your
assistant's not doing a very good job, you tell me
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] she's related to the second cousin of the guy who
you're in litigation with and that she needs to be
fired. It goes to the Board, it's a 2-to-2 tie,
and then you ask the Secretary of State's office
to break the tie. I don't know. I don't know
what to do about those things. You know --
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Q. I don't either because it's a whacky
system.
A. Yeah. I don't know what to do -- I
don't know what to do about those things.
Q. Yeah.
A. And so whenever there were issues, I
believe we went up there four or five, six
different times. I'm sure it's documented
somewhere. Talked to everybody and their brother.
And we started off privately, we started off in
private rooms, tell me what you're hearing,
Mr. Todd. Tell me what you are hearing.
Mr. Stainbrook. Tell me what you are hearing,
Mr. Gallagher. And then we would bring in
employees, tell me what you're hearing; tell me
what the problems are. Everybody would tell a
hell of a story. And then you'd open a door and
no one would tell the story. Because when you
i
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asked them to tell it in front of other people,
they were not willing to tell the story.
So they were willing to complain, they
had the authority to address or vote or tie or not
tie on many of the issues, and I-® I don't know.
I don't know these people. I don't know who's
telling the truth, did not know.
Q. And you weren't there every day?
A. Oh, no. No. Didn't -- I mean I can't
even remember some of their names. No.
Q. Right.
A. No.
Q. We heard a little bit yesterday from
Mr. Damschroder that there is a system by which
the Secretary's office has an ongoing set of eyes
and ears in the county boards of elections, the
regional liaison.
MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.
Q. It's not exactly the way Matt put it,
but there was a -- and I was going to ask you to
explain a little bit more as to what those
regional liaisons were supposed to do.
MS. RICHARDSON: I'll object to form
and to the extent that we're representing
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testimony esterda that r. B ry y y M o gemenke was
not present for.
Q. Well, just tell me what you think the
regional liaisons are for.
A. Regional liaisons are not in any sort
of management situation. Regional liaisons -- we
had envisioned regional liaisons, sometimes you
have seven of them, sometimes you have eight of
them. They're at different levels. Some have
elections experience, some don't. They are
instructed by our office not to give any advice.
They are instructed to observe the meeting, listen
to the meeting, give us a call if things get out
of order, if things are -- if there's a real
problem. You know, because, look, some'--
sometimes there are what I call real problems
which are real electorate problems, voting machine
problems, then there are personal issues, then
there are just fights. And so to the extent we
don't always get -- you know, we don't always get
to hear these machines are not counting right,
these machines -- those people were to report back
to us to the best of their knowledge what they
observed at a meeting. Absolutely no authority to
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do anything. They're not paid at that level.
We have some very, very young first
jobs out of college listeners, reporters, call
back. All different qualities, all different
skill sets. But eyes and ears in a day-to-day
basis -- I mean certainly not saying that they
were i.mbeddedin a troop much like a reporter
would be in Afghanistan, that would not be the
case.
Q. But they would be charged, for example,
with attending Board meetings and report back if
there were issues that arose at the Board level?
A. Yeah, and to the extent that they
could. Because interesting enough you have these
big regions, a lot of boards meet at 8:00 on
Friday. Sometimes you've got to go to Putnam,
sometimes you've got to go to Lucas.
Q. Right.
A. Sometimes you have a dentist
appointment. So this was a sporadic issue. So 9
out of 10 times, I -- I almost never heard from
them.
Q. From the regional liaisons?
A. Well, I almost never heard from them.
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Q. Did they report to anybody in
pa.rticular?
A. Yeah. I mean they would report to --
we'd have someone in charge of the regional
offices and they would report in. They really
didn't do written reports. They would just call
and say, hey, we have this problem. Sometimes --
sometimes what was nice is you would have
responsible Board members that would say, hey, you
know, this might come up, just want to make sure
your office -- and that would let us determine
whether they would send somebody to Putnam or
Lucas or Sandusky.
L. Uh-huh. But really no authority.
A. More just -- I would call them almost
AP reporters, not even opinion reporters, just
report back what they heard.
Q. Sort of circulating reporters?
A. Yeah. And they would take notes and --
Q. Did the -- who wasthe regional
liaisons for this area during the time period you
were at the Secretary of State's office?
A. I believe there were -- let me make
sure I get this right. Tim Monaco was certainly
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there for a period of time. And then I think
there was a period of time where we didn't have
anybody assigned to the county. I know we -- we
did send up a special master at one point during
theelection.
Q. Which election are you referring to?
A. The Presidential election.
Q. 2012. Thank you.
A. But that would not be a regional
liaison, but it would be somebody who actually was
probably more embedded into the situation.
Q. Right. Right.
A. And then at some point we didn't have
anybody assigned to the county. That happens
frequently. It's not personal. It happens
frequently. We have people who quit, it takes us
time to fill the j obs . Quite frankly, I don ' t
even know that you need them. But we have them in
the county, we have eyes and ears out there. And
it helps people, it helps Board members ask
questions to the Secretary of State's office and
report back to the lawyers.
Q. So it's an additional channel of
communication that functions between the
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Secretary's office and the local boards?
A. It is a one-way radio.
Q. Okay.
A. It is not a channel of communication.
They do not have the authority to make --
iQ. Say anything?
A. -- decisions on behalf of the office,
they do not have the authority to -- just like our
, - _counsel, they don't -- you know, they will say --
you know, oftentimes we spend time reading the
Code back to the Board members
Q. Uh-huh.
A. -- in our legal office because again
they are represented by -- in Code by the county
prosecutor.
Q. Uh-huh.
A. And so you have this great system in
which you've got state elections and statewide
elections and different access to hours based on
different counties, and so this is -- this is a--
this is the law that the General Assembly has
written and --
Q. As rewritten by our federal judges.
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
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A. Yeah, I mean --
Q. Like yesterday.
A. Yeah. I mean, look, it's the system
that's out there.
Q. Yeah.
A. And there is an oversight and
responsibility. And to the best of our abilities,
we felt it was a responsibility of the Secretary
of State's office to make sure that Ohio operated
in its most consistent fashion possible.
Q. Uh-huh.
A. And again I'd like to explain this
because I think this is really
Q. I think it's very important. Go ahead.
Please go ahead.
A. I think it's really important to
understand this. County votes, making sure people
vote in a county vote is very important.
Secretary Blackwell had a very difficult job.
Federal government had some problems in Florida,
federal government provided HAVA funds to the
states to buy voting machines. Wonderful country
we live in, federalism allows a state to control
those dollars. Five different voting machines in
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the State of Ohio, all bid individually and
separately, all with different salespeople, all
with different systems to come through, you know,
hard --
Q. And none of them spoke to each other by
2006?
A. Well, and a lot of those didn't speak
to each other. So to the extent managing those
things and making sure that those processes,
particularly on your federal elections, are as
fair as possible and your statewide elections are
as fair and as accurate as possible is very, very
important.
Your county issues, hey, if you pick
the county machine, the county machine counts the
way the county machine counts, as long as the
county sheriffs are all counted by the same
machine, same processes, fine.
A little different when you're talking
about the federal elections and statewide
elections. So it is one -- it is one of those
frustrating situations that you are responsible
for oversight and guidance, but you have no
day-to-day responsibilities on a lot of the other
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things.
Q. It's almost like a state federal --
federalism system where you've got two different
levels --
A. Yes, sir.
Q. -- but they only occasionally are
interfacing and coordinating.
A. Yeah. They're only -- yeah.
Q. Okay. Let's talk about -- again going
back to Lucas County, we know there was an issue
that required the replacement of Director Howell
and I believe the deputy director at that point.
Do you remember whether that was in part due to
the fact,that Ms. Howell was not an elector of
Lucas County?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. I recall the issue coming up as being a
complaint. That is not the reason for the
dismissal. The dismissal was a direct violation
of a directive issued by Secretary Brunner.
Q. On how to deal with provisional
ballots?
A. It was a voting issue.
Q. Okay.
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A. If I chased down where everybody lived,
whose cousins, who went to school with whom, I
can't figure those things out. It was a very
tangible violation of a directive.
Q. By Director Howell?
A. By Director Howell and I believe by
Jeremy as well.
Q. The deputy director?
A. Yeah. I think they jointly recommended
something that was in violation of a--
Q. Of state law and the directive. You`re
nodding. That's a yes?
A. Yes. I'm sorry. Yes.
Q. If you don't --
A. Yeah, no. No.
Q. -- articulate something
A. Yeah, please tell me.
Q. And eventually Stacy's going to go
please, Mr. Borgemenke
A. Yeah, no, please. That's fine.
Q. After Director Howell was replaced,
what happened at that point? My understanding is
Mr. Roberts came in as director somewhere around
there.
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IA. I'm going to give you to the best of my
knowledge what happened.
Q. That's fine. That's all you can do.
A. There were changes in the Board members
that came either immediately before or immediately
after the -- Jeremy and the -- the dismissal. I
can't remember first which came, but Board members
were also replaced at the time, all within I think
a pretty short period. So there was kind of a
whole revamping. The only reason I think there
were new Board members that were in place is I
believe -- I believe Mr. Stainbrook, who would not
have been on the Board initially, was involved in
his hiring.
Q. In the hiring of whom? I'm sorry.
A. Mr. Roberts.
Q. Oh, okay.
A. So I --
Q. As director?
A. Yeah, as director.
Q. Right.
A. The day-to-day staff, they're supposed
to run the day-to-day office
Q. Right.
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A. -- they were removed. I just can't
remember whether one Board member or another Board
member came in. I do, however, remember
Mr.Stainbrook and I talking about Mr. Roberts,
and he may have been -- again, you can ask him.
Q. Okay.
A. He may have been there when we removed
Ms. Howell. I don't know. But it was kind of all
in one block of time.
Q. Okay. Did you have any personal
dealings with Mr. Roberts at that time?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. At what time?
Q. At the time period now we're talking
about sometime in early, perhaps the first half of
2011.
A. I dealt with Mr. Roberts once
Mr. Roberts became an officialof the office.
Q. Okay. And what was the nature of your
communications with Mr. Roberts at that time?
A. How many stories am I allowed to tell?
Q. As many as you want and as many as your
counsel will sit around for. I'm happy to listen.
A. Well, look -- because this is what is
-_
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so confusing and so difficult about this
situation. It is my personal belief there's a
cultural problem in Lucas County.
Q. Within the Board itself,
Mr. Borgemenke, or generally?
A. I can't speak to the whole county.
Q. Okay.
A. I certainly am not -- you know, I think
there's wonderful people in Lucas County. I think
this Board
Q. Tony Packo, for example.
A. Yeah. I think the Board would go
back -- I think nobody would disagree that this
Board has had its series of problems for years.
Q. Uh-huh.
A. Some of which get debated in the paper.
And I'll refer to Mr. Stainbrook even though
that's not the question. If you would like to
object, that's fine as well.
Q. No. No.
A. Mr. Stainbrook and I had several,
several conversations over the course of him
becoming a new Board member. He was alsothe
chairman of the Party.
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Q. Uh-huh,
A. He's also probably the leader, probably
the most vocal, probably the most active, all of
which some -- as he and I have exchanged and we've
exchanged jokes sometimes, sometimes we think
that's a good thing to be, sometimes we think
that's a bad thing to be. We had some differences
of opinion on that. But always tried to keep it,
as best we could, light and professional.
Q. Uh-huh.
A. Got in some arguments but actually kind
of settled up most times. Explaining to
Mr. Stainbrook and explaining to Mr. Roberts the
way in which Scott Borgemenke thinks boards
operate -- and by boards, I mean when I was in the
governor's office, dental boards, I sat -- and
that I've sat on dental Boards. Chiropractor
boards, I've been on the Ohio University board,
I've been on boards for museums and trustees.
Every one has their different flavor, right?
Q. Uh-huh.
A. And I remember one example that I
talked to Mr. Stainbrook about was when I was on
the board at Ohio University, we were in charge of
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macro policy, hiring/firing administrators, big
problems, making sure we were ready
preparedness, making sure the budget was lined up.
If a student wanted to leave the dorm room because
they were in a fight with their roommate or a
boyfriend was there, we would certainly be
involved in issues such as security issues, males
not being removed from female dorms. We were not
in charge of moving roommates. We were not in
charge of making sure the meals were hot. We were
not in charge -- so -- so what I think
Mr. Stainbrook and I both tried to do was to try
to decide what is the day-to-day function of a
Board member and then what is the day-to-day
function of the person who is paid professionally.
I think you see that in a lot of elected officials
offices.
Q. Uh-huh.
A. You know, the Governor runs the State
of Ohio. The Governor makes the decision. There
are a lot of people making a lot of decisions
right now under the Governor's purview. Is the
Governor aware of what's on everybody's computer
right now at the Department of Administrative
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Services? He is not, nor should he be.
Q. Even Bob Blair isn't.
A. And Bob Blair isn't either. You know,
I-- I tell a story I worked for Bob Taft. Bob
Taft was a good man, he was tough on staff. And
he asked a lot of questions, sometimes operated
hands on like Mr. Stainbrook operates. Bob Taft
would get upset sometimes in the newspaper. And
the way I related to Governor Taft was, you know,
Governor, 57,000 employees in the State of Ohio
and they all have computers. Somebody is looking
at pornography right now and there's nothing we
can do about that. And we can set up our policies
and we can have our day-to-day people and we can
bring our managers in --
Q. Uh-huh.
A. -- and we can tell our managers this is
not acceptable and I want to make sure you look at
it. That doesn't mean Scott Borgemenke or
Governor Taft go running in and start checking
people's computers out at ODOT. And so we worked
through that a lot. And I think -- I think we
both benefitted from it. I've learned a lot from
Mr. Stainbrook. I think we both benefitted from
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1 those exchanges. So that's what we worked with a
2 lot with Mr. Roberts. What was Mr. Roberts
3 responsible for, what was Mr. Stainbrook
4 responsible for, how are they dividing the office.
5 I think those are the things we worked on.
6 Q. Mr. Roberts did not remain in the
7 position as director for very long.
8 MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
9 A. I-- I don't -- as you joke with me
10 that I couldn't keep a job, I don't remain in jobs
11 very long. I don't recall that he stayed -- I
12 don't know what "very long" is. I think he stayed
13 as long as his mental sanity could allow him to
14 say.
15 Q. Why do you say it that way?
16 A. I believe because in his resignation
17 letter, he talked about the office being totally
18 dysfunctional.
19 Q. In terms of the actual staff of the
20 office?
21 MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
22 A. I can't speak to his mental state of
23 why he couldn't stay in the job.
24 Q. But Mr. Roberts believed that he could
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not do the things that you and Mr. Stainbrook had
been talking about in terms of creating a smooth
functioning work environment that would produce
the results that we expect from a Board of
Eleetions.
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
Q. Is that really what it boiled down to?
If you know. I mean, I -- I'm just trying to
figure out here what happened.
A. I don't know the answer. I -- in the
conversations that I recall with Mr. Roberts,
which were not many --
Q. Uh-huh.
A. -- I don't think Mr. Roberts knew
exactly what his duties were. Mr. Roberts felt
pulled in many different directions, and so I -- I
don't know. I don't know. I really don't.
Q. Did you ever have an impression that
Mr. Roberts was not a competent individual?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. In what sense?
A. For this job. And here's the way I --
first of all --
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Q. When you say "this job," you mean the
director?
A. No. No. I mean for the Board of
Elections. And let me explain what I believe
competency is. I'm not a lawyer.
Q. Okay.
A. I'm a regular guy.
Q. That's fine.
A. I think I'm one of the most competent
chiefs of staff, political operatives, whatever
you want to call it. I cannot change my own oil.
I am not competent to work at Jiffy Lube. it
doesn't mean that I am not a competent person.
That is an unfortunate term that I believe that
the Code has. I believe there are people that are
not competent for certain jobs, but that's not a
besmirching of who they are as individuals. I do
not believe he's competent to have that job.
Q. Based on what?
A. Based on his ability not to -- you
know, managers, day-to-day people, you manage up,
and, you know, good chiefs of staff manage up and
they manage down. And I do not believe he had the
ability to manage up or down. That he -- that he
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was there to implement what he was told to do.
And sometimes he was told two different things to
do, and I think his frustration in leaving and
departing so quickly had to do with that.
Q. Who was telling him two different
things to do?
A. You know, I don't know. I don't know.
I assume -- and this is assume because I've worked
in Governor's offices and I've worked -- and I
will give you my example of what I assume because
I think these things are structured very well.
Q. That's okay.
A. DAS, the director, tells you what they
want to do in the department when you're the chief
policy advisor to the Governor. The Governor
tells you what he wants done at DAS. Some people
can handle those situations, some people can make
those decisions, some people are willing to
implement those decisions based on who tells them
what to do, and they move forward and they're able
to take the responsibility. It was not apparent
to me in the structure that Mr. Roberts was
willing to make the decisions that I feel the
full-time -- the full-time employee is responsible
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for making.
Q. When you say full-time employee, you
mean in his capacity as director of the Board of
Elections?
A. As director of the Board of Elections.
Q. Okay.
A. And I believe there is a responsibility
that the director and the deputy director have to
run the day-to-day operations of those boards.
And if they don't do it properly, it is the
responsibility to have the Board to remove them.
Q. Or if they violate the law, as we
learned with Linda Howell?
A. Or if they violate the law, the
Secretary of State could remove them. But I do
believe they have that responsibility.
Q. And in this case, though, Mr. Roberts
resigned, correct?
A. I think so.
Q. Okay. He was not removed for not being
able to execute his responsibilities.
MS. RICHAR.DSON: Object to form.
A. I believe there's a letter of
resignation.
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Q. Okay. And you had referred to it
before that he was having difficulty in trying to
accomplish the goals he wanted to accomplish as
director.
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. I don't believe Mr. Roberts had goals.
I believe Mr. Roberts was a member of the infantry
and he just didn't know which sergeant he was --
or general he was supposed to listen to. He
didn't have goals. He didn't set leadership
abilities. He -- he was implementing tasks and I
think he got confused.
Q. Well, who was he listening to?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. Who was he talking to or listening to?
That's a difference, too. That's a difference,
too.
Q. Exactly. And I am asking who he was
listening to. Because what you have described
here is the typical relationship between an
executive director and a Board, and the Board sets
policies, sets the tone in the general direction
and the executive director executes.
A. Well --
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Q. And is it fair what you are describing
as he was unable to execute the policy as being
set by the Board?
A. No.
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. No. I believe Mr. Roberts, and I think
that it continued throughout and I think it's --
and I think there's enough dysfunction to be
spread equally. Things don't get on the agenda
there, big issues. If you go through the
transparency committee, no one can tell you how
things are put on the agenda. Does the executive
director or the director put it on the agenda?
Does the chairman put it on the agenda? Does the
head of the Republican -- I'll say the Republican
chairman, it doesn't necessarily have to be the
Republican chairman. I think in this case it was
the Republican chairman was Mr. Stainbrook, the
Republican chairman was Mr. Rothenbuhler at the
time. Do they get together and decide what's on
the agenda? No one can tell you. And when people
like that are running an election and no one can
tell you how issues big, small, or indifferent get
on that agenda, that's a problem. I don't know
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whose problem it is, but it's kind of a problem.
Q. When you say get on the agenda,
Mr. Borgemenke, do you mean that matters are not
being placed formally on an agenda for the Board
of Elections to determine or just in the generic
sense of an agenda that there's no process by
which matters are being raised and addressed?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. Both.
Q. Oxay.
A. And it's inconsistent. And ifthere's
a complaint about a voting machine, sometimes
Mr. Stainbrook wanted that put on the agenda.
They would adjourn the meeting. Sometimes
Mr. Stainbrook -- and I just use Mr. Stainbrook
because he's sitting here.
Q. No. No. That's fine.
A. If anybody has an objection, I can
mention this about any of the other Board members
because I don't think it applies to
Mr. Stainbrook, he's here in the room.
Q. Right.
A. If Mr. Rothenbuhler didn't want to deal
with an agenda item, he would just never put it on
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the agenda. There is -- it's kind of sad, there
are layman terms and there are legal terms and
then there are election terms.
Q. Uh-huh.
A. And words like "competency," words like
"regular," okay, they're used differently in
different contexts.
Q. Uh-huh.
A. Boards of Elections are required to
have regular meetings.
Q. Uh-huh.
A. Okay. Regular meetings, the Board of
Elections actually have standards, things that
must be talked about in a regular meeting. No
less than 15 times have I had conversations with
Mr. Stainbrook, Mr. Rothenbuhler, and I'll name
those two because they are the ones, explaining
that a regular meeting did not mean frequency. A
regular meeting meant you have to announce the
meeting on a regular basis and deal with issues
addressed in the Code and in resolution. It never
happened.
Q. Do you mean the Board wasn't having
meetings?
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A. Right.
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. No, they were having meetings, but
they're allowed to have -- you know, you can have
informal meetings in which you deal with the issue
at hand. You can have regular meetings. In
regular meetings you deal with personal issues,
you deal with -- those meetings never happened.
We told them over and over and over. I don't know
why they didn't do it. I don't know why. But
that was -- that was a breach of duty.
Q. By the Board members?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to farm.
A. By everybody.
Q. But whose -- I mean we have to have a
system in Ohio, as you point out, that applies
generally --
A. The Board --
Q. -- to who's in charge.
A. The Board. The Board and the person
that they choose to hire day to day, those six
people, no matter their dislike for each other,
their interrelation with each other, they need to
figure out how it works. And for the most part in
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87 other counties it works.
Summit County, my friends, I say it
with a twinkling in the eye, sometimes they run
into some problems up there. But they just fight
like hell and eventually they settle on things.
We got to in Lucas County -- and again I want to
make sure I don't blame --
Q. Anybody?
A. -- total gridlock. Republican staff
members would not talk to Democrat Board members.
DemocratBoard members would not return Republican
staff inember's phone calls. That's not --I mean
I worked in the legislature for years. You know,
I've worked over there, things have gotten really
partisan lately.
When I was in Jon Husted's office, we
spoke with Minority Leader Beatty all the time.
And you know what we did? We didn't agree, but
you know what we did, we told them what we were
doing, we told them why they were on the agenda,
there was open communications and the agenda moved
forward.
I don't know who's to blame. And when
we went in four or five or six times and talked to
I
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everybody individually, everybody had a good story
of who to blame. And I believe everybody thought
thatthey were telling their version of it.
And then we had the transparency
committee, and we said, well, if we're going to
have these problems -- you know, I'm a Seinfeld
fan, the airing of the grievances. Let's have an
airing of the grievances, all right? And so we
went up there, and we thought, you know, if y'all
want to talk about it, here's your time. That's
where it came from. But things didn't happen.
Q. When you're talking about the gridlock
that had developed --
A. They won't let you use your phone
anymore? You have to use --
MR. STAINBROOK: I'm using --
MR. TODD: I don't accept phone calls
in depositions.
THE WITNESS: I know. We're good
friends. We were talking about it in the hall and
we're good. He knows I'm playing with him.
MR. TODD: I don't have my phone with
me. He could be playing Madden and I don't care.
A. Yeah, I was -- just --
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Q. Mr. Borgemenke, you said that gridlock
had developed up there at Lucas County. Would
this have been during the time period you were
still at the Secretary's office?
A. Yeah.
Q. Okay. And there were clearly at least
two directors who were in the position of being
director of the Board of Elections that we've
talked about so far. First was Linda Howell, and
then Mr. Roberts, we know he was there for
whatever period of time he was there. When
Mr. Roberts left, was there an effort made to
bring in another director to bring the horse back
-- or the saddle back on -the horse?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
Q. I know horse jokes are not good. Go
ahead and answer if you can.
A. Again, and I hate to do this -- I hate
to do this to you. I think history's very
important.
Q. I agree. Yeah, I appreciate you
telling me.
(Ms. Carwile exits deposition.)
A. I think history's very important. So I
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need to go back and recreate what I -- what I
witnessed up there.
When we first went up there, Ms. Howell
and Jeremy, whatever his last name is, there
wasn't gridlock because the Board voted 4-0, 3-1., -
Whether they voted the right way or the wrong way,
that's the system, majority rules. Were things
being done properly or not being done properly,
look, we went up there, there were 4-0 votes done,
and we found some things done improperly.
Q. And we're now talking again -- the time
frame early 2011.
A. We're talking about when we first got
up there.
Q. Okay.
A. When we first get up there, look, this
computing system, the people are confusing -- but
the Board voted and that's the system we have.
The system we have is if you got three votes,
that's the policy. But there were some things
that were -- were done incorrectly. As that
changed, what we got into was nothing being put on
the agenda. When things were put on the agenda,
they were very difficult to distinguish. The
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sides were so different, you know, it was 50
degrees, it was 150 degrees. You know, they were
so different that things just stopped getting put
on the agenda. Whether those things were voting
issues, personnel issues, timecard issues, whether
there were Republican -- I mean we even hacl.
discussions about the -- about whether there were
Republican computers or Democrat computers, not
whether there were taxpayer computers. Whose
computers are they? Which party do they belong
to? You know, I think -- and again I would -- I'm
more than happy to have someone correctme if it's
appropriate, i believe the police had been called
two or three times.
Q. To the Board?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Over what?
A. One time was I think with Mr. Roberts'
computer -- here's what I'm telling you I'mtold.
I don't know what the policy is.
Q. That's fine.
A. This is the way I recollect it. I'm
told when somebody leaves, the county party -- not
the county party, the county administrator,
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whether they leave human services, Board of
Elections, they own the equipment, they own the
office building, there is a procedure and process
in which computers get wiped out, removed, reset
up. Well, they weren't allowed in the room to get
the computer.
Q. By whom?
A. I will apologize ahead of time. I
believe it was Ms. Gallagher, but I could stand
corrected at the time if -- but I believe it was
Ms. Gallagher, but I don't know that she was the
only one. But I think she was there at -- I
believe she was there at the time. I don't know
that she physically stood in the room. But -- but
they couldn't remove the computer. Police get
called, there's another situation.
Q. Well, let me -- before you go on
A. Sure. Sure.
Q. I'm just trying to get -- I'm just as
confused as you are by some of these facts.
A. You should be. You'll never figure it
out.
Q. When Mr. Roberts left, you say there
was some issue regarding the county administrator
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taking his computer?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. No. I believe there is a county policy
with county computers like there is at the
Secretary of State's office, like there were at
any other departments.
Q. Like the IRS?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. I don't know what the IRS's policy is.
When somebody -- when somebody leaves, that is the
property of the entity that owns the property.
Q. Uh-huh.
A. Most places have disposal, whether they
come in and wipe it out, whether because of public
record laws they put it on a tape. I don't know.
Every county's different. 2 just know that they
wanted to get into the computer. I don't know if
they charged in the moment Ben Roberts left. I
don't know if they came in six months later. But
I do know that the police were solved [sic].
Q. Called? You said "solved."
A. Called. The police were called. I
don't know. That seems -- that seems like that
could have been worked out differently.
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Q. Seems unusual.
Is it your recollection that that
related to the fact that the way we have our
bipartisan voter registration information at the
county level that we have a central tabulating
system in each county that has both a Republican
and Democratic key?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. I do not believe -- no. These are
different systems. Okay. Your tabulation key and
your personal computer, these are different
systems. Access to these are different systems.
These are not -- these are not, hey, Scott's got
access, he's the executive director, I can get in
there and start -- these thingsare different,
there are different systems set up. My
understanding was it was a personal computer.
Q. And you don't know whether it was, in
fact, a dispute about this question of whether the
Republican key which had been in the possession of
Mr. Roberts was being asked for by the Democratic
side?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form and
asked and answered.
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A. One is it wasn't a key because I don't
-- I don't think.
Q. I don't mean that -- I don't mean that
in terms of
A. I don't think it's a black box.
Q. No. No. No.
A. I believe the way the system is set up,
two Republicans and two Democrats have access to
passwords.
Q. Correct. That's what I meant by "key."
A. Yeah. They have access to passwords.
You cannot do it without both of those. One
person left, so I don't know that it would violate
the security. Now that we're on to that system, I
don't even know, you know, Mr. Todd, why that's a
relevant question. Because when people left, they
never even changed the passwords.
Q. Okay.
A. So even if that were the case,
passwords weren't changed anyway.
Q. Who called the police over this?
A. I do not -- I
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. I don't know. There are any number of
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-- some day when I have interest, I would --
everybody has a police report filed against
everybody else up there. It's an exaggeration,
but it's not too much of an exaggeration.
Q. You mentioned that there are other
police reports. Are there any other specificones
that you can think of 2
A. Yeah, this was down the road. Right
before the transparency committee when
Mr. Stainbrook was I think -- I think frustrated
about the way things were going, an employee was
released. And I believe it was -- gosh, I wish
people could correct me because I would generally
probably agree with their fact set. I believe
Ms. Gallagher had been not reappointed for her
job. It's an odd law. The laws are odd in the
State of Ohio. You can be removed for certain
reasons, but there's a reappointment process.
Q. Right.
A. And it's for members and it's for upper
level staff. I believe she had not been
reappointed. And it was certainly within a day if
not hours the person that had beenappointed to
that job, Gina Kaczala, for some reason one of her
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first -- one of her first acts was to leave the
Board meeting and go up and relieve the duty of a
woman named Melissa who I think was in charge of
getting poll workers or she was -- she was a staff
person, lots of multi-function -- people do a lot
of multifunctional things.
Q. Sure.
A. During the election, you do some
things --
Q. Right.
A. -- don't do other things. She relieved
her of her duties. She left that day, came back
the next day because there was -- there was a
question of whether Ms. Kaczala had the right to
relieve this person of their duties. Once again,
difference of opinion. Is this the day-to-day
person? Is this the Board member's person? Is
this a -- do you have to have a 3-0 vote? I don't
know. She came back up, sat at her desk, was
confronted byI think -- I believe D'Angelo which
is the Democrat and Gina Kaczala which was the
sitting Republican. Told that she had been
removed, that she was not allowed to be there
anymore. I believe that security in the building
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was called to remove her from the building. That
security, to my recollection -- I'm going to say
it was a state highway patrol who was also in the
building, went back upstairs to remove the
employee.
I don't know why things are done this
way. And the concern -- the concern that one
would have is if this type of interaction is
happening with these types of issues, how are the
blocking and tackling getting done on making sure
the election's run properly.
Q. When did this issue arise with regard
to this employee you seem to recall the first name
was Melissa? Do you recall roughly when that
happened?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. Yeah, I know roughly when it happened.
I won't know the day.
Q. No.
A. It's going to be within 24 hours of
when Ms. Gallagher was not reappointed.
Q. Okay.
A. And I remember taking issue -- to be
honest with you, that's why I remember asking
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Ms. Kaczala why she thought that should have been
the first order of business. And that's why I
think this is all so sad.
Q. Was that
A. I didn't understand why that would be
the first thing someone would do. But that's
where -- that to me -- and you may not be asking
me that. That to me is where the issue of
competency comes in.
Q. And when you say that, you're relating
that to Ms. Kaczala's decision to go in and
relieve Melissa of her duties?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. Yeah. I guess when you get a new job,
there's lots of things to deal with. And the
competency of the individuals involved in the
history of this Board could maybe almost all be in
question. Because when you're dealing with these
issues within two hours of being hired, that just
makes me wonder if you're competent to make the
decisions that matter. And it happened time and
time again with time and time of employee. it
just kept happening and kept happening.
Q. I believe you said originally that the
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incident with Melissa happened around the time the
transparency hearings were going on; is that --
MS. RICHARDSON: I --
A. No, I think it happened -- well, I know
it would have happened before the transparency
committee --
Q. Okay.
A. -- came on. Because part of the
transparency committee was this was something -- I
believe Mr. Stainbrook brought it to my attention
or brought to my attention when Ms. Gallagher had
left of being another issue why things aren't
being done right. And I think what was occurring
was the complaints kept coming fast and furious.
And I think the Secretary felt he needed to go
hear a story -- hear what was happening.
MS. RICHARDSON: And I don't want to
interrupt.
MR. TODD: No.
MS. RICHARDSON: But if you get to a
stopping point, if we can take break.
MR. TODD: Oh, no. Great place to
stop.
(A short recess is taken.)
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Q. All right. Let's go back on the
° record.
A. Okay. Thank you.
Q. Let's go back and talk a little bit
about -- and just to clarify the record a little
bit and help me understand. My understanding is
that when Mr. Roberts left as director of Lucas
County Board of Elections, that an issue arose
with regard to his computer, correct?
A. Yeah.
Q. Were you aware of the fact that that
computer was the object of a police investigation
at the time he left?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. No. But what was troubling about it,
what I was aware of was the identification and the
description of there being Republican computers
and Democrat computers.
Q. Ah.
A. Which was relayed to me several times,
that there are Republican computers and Democrat
computers.
Q. Do you recall that there was an issue
that had arisen where a Board employee had
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actually hacked into Mr. Roberts' computer and hael.
been in an unauthorized manner sending out e-mails
under his signature?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. I believe that that was one of the many
stories that had been told from the Lucas County
Board of Elections with no outcome or no
determination.
Q. Okay. But you do remember that story?.
A. I remember lots of stories.
Q. But you remember that one specifically
with regard to the computer?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. Yes. But can I change my words?
Q. Absolutely. Please explain.
A. One of numerous rumors of shenanigans
happening up there, yes, I do remember that rumor.
Q. And it would be important to preserve
that computer so that no one could remove evidence
that in fact it had been hacked.
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. I do not believe that's why the police
were called.
Q. Okay. But do you know why they were
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called?
A. Because people were taking the
computer.
Q. Was it the employee who had actually
hacked the computer who was trying to take it?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. I don't know that the computer was
hacked. I don't think that's ever been -- I
believe there's a pending report on that like the
seven others that there's been no determination
on. But I do not know who that was.
Q. When you say pending report, do you
mean pending police investigation?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. I don't know.
Q. Okay.
A. But back to the problems with the Lucas
County Board in general, if these things were
occurring, and I don't know if they were, they
never changed passwords for two years. So once
again we have an issue -- we have an issue. Let's
assume --
Q. Right.
A. -- hypothetically for a second that was
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the case.
Q. Okay.
A. Don't know that it was ornot. if this
is happening, why are passwords not being changed?
What are the protocols if these accusations --
these things aren't being changed; they weren't
being changed. This was part of the problem. So
if it was occurring -- I'm not saying it was or
wasn't -- there are ways to go into this.
I do believe -- I do believe people
walk away from their computers and send e-mails
and those sorts of things, don't know that that's
hacking. But I don't think -- the IT policies
weren't there. I've been in offices before where
people have said computers have been hacked and
immediately everybody's changing their password.
I work at a place now called the Ohio
Hospital Association. You couldbreak in there,
look at all the files and find nothing secretive.
We have to change our passwords every three weeks.
And so again a flaw in the office.
Q. Yeah.
A. And again I think that computer was a
-- I think that computer was -- and someone else
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could verify this, but I think that computer was
not related to the elections. I believe that
computer was more like a laptop computer, an
e-mail computer.
Q. Right. And that was the question is do
you know whether or not it was actually the
computer that had been allegedly hacked by the
Board employee and used improperly to send out
e-mails in the name of the Board?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. I don't know.
Q. Okay. Mr. Borgemenke, when we have a
functioning Board of Elections in a county, is it
customary that the chairman of the Board would
call meetings?
MS. RICHARDSON: Objection. {
A. I believe it's functionary that the
chairman of the Board or the executive director or
via policy, whomever the Board agreed had the
ability to call the meetings of the Board. I
think it operates many different ways.
Q. Okay. And if it -- there was no policy
indicating that anyone other than the chairman
could call the meeting, then we'rs to be stuck if
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the chairman refused?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. I am unaware that that policy exists
that the chairman called the meetings, one. And,
secondly, when asked about how to get things on
the agenda, I know I had suggested several times
to change the policy.
Q. As to put things -- how to put things
on the agenda for the meeting?
A. Yeah. I'm unaware that the policy
exists. To the extent that it does exist, when
asked about how to fix that, I thought bringing up
a change in policy would be a way to do that. And
I don't know if that was brought up. I don't know
if that was brought up or not.
Q. Okay. And
A. But again I guess I'm going to
editorialize for a second.
Q. Oh, please do.
A. They can't call meetings? I mean,
again, I don't know whose fault -- they can't call
a meeting? This is
Q. You know
A. I understand. I understand your point.
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But -- but --
Q. It's been my experience is the chairman
calls a meeting and the Board members showup. I
mean it's the way it always works, no matter
whether we're talking about the Board of Elections
or the Ohio University Board.
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form. Is
there a question?
MR. TODD: No. We're kind of
dialoguing. We're not asking a question.
Q. I guess the question is if that were
the policy, I mean, isn't the problem that the
chairman is not calling meetings?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. No.
Q. Okay.
A. I think the other Board members, if
they have a problem with the chairman, have many
remedies. Changing the policy, changing the
chairman. And they didn't take anyof them.
Q. But those actions that you just
mentioned, Mr. Borgemenke, would have to happen at
an official Board meeting?
A. They had meetings. They just couldn't
_. I
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get items on the agenda. Mr. Stainbrook would be
the best one to testify to that.
Q. So they did have Board meetings?
A. Sure.
Q. Okay.
A. What was put on the agenda was always a
question.
Q. Okay. So in other words, you had said
before that there was a long period of time that
they did not even have a Board meeting up there.
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. They didn't have regular Board
meetings. Regular Board meetings, and you'll --
again, after the deposition, go back and refer to
Code, look in the Code.
Q. Yeah.
A. Regular Board meetings require certain
things get discussed.
Q. Correct.
A. They had meetings. Some of them were
regular, some of them were not regular. Regular
is a content issue. Nothing prevented anything
else from being brought up in open discussion.
You do a lot with open meetings. If you watched
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one of these meetings, people said anything that
they wanted at any time.
Q. So it was pretty open but not in a
legal sense.
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. Well, I guess it was open. But I guess
to the extent that a Board member would not bring
up a real problem, I guess that would be a
fiduciary -- I guess I would be more concerned
being a Board member not bringing up an issue that
I was aware of, whether the Board meeting occurred
or not. That's not the Secretary of State's
office job, that's a --
Q. That's a Board member job.
A. Board member job.
Q. Okay. Let's go back to a little bit of
your personal chronology. And I believe you told
us that you left the Secretary's office around
March of 2013?
A. Could have been May.
Q. May. I'm sorry. It was May lst of
2013.
A. Yeah.
Q. After leaving your position at the
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Secretary of State's office, when is the next time
Lucas County issues involving the Board of
Elections came to your attention?
A. Whenever I would glance at the Blade.
Q. Okay. And --
A. And as you know, in our world -- in our
world, which is a small world out here, you know,
there are people that wake up in the morning and
they clip news services and they send you the
clips of the news service. And to the extent that
I clicked on some of them and did not click on
other ones, but that would be the --
Q. But you were not in a position nor were
you actually involved in any of the matters that
was occurring -- that were occurring there.
A. No.
MS. RICHARDSON: I object.
Q. Okay. When was the next time --
A. Sorry.
Q. -- that you became involved in
personally involved in matters involving the
personal -- or excuse me, the Lucas County Board
of Elections?
A. What do you mean by "personally
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involved"?
Q. When was the next time that you became
directly involved in any matters that involved the
Lucas County Board of Elections?
A. The transparency committee.
Q. Okay. So between the time you left the
Secretary's office and started at the Ohio
Hospital Association until the beginning of the
transparency committee hearings or thereabouts,
the beginning of that process, you had not been
involved with Lucas County?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
Q. Board of Elections, that is?
A. No more than any other gadfly on
capital square reading the clips, no.
Q. How did it happen that you were
contacted to be involved with the transparency
committee?
A. Well, just by me wanting to be short, I
just can't -- I just don't have that in me.
Q. I understand that, so please feel free
to explain.
A. There are -- since I started in the
Secretary of State's office, I've been to Florida
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three times. Two of those times I've spent over
two hours on the phone talking about the Lucas
County Board of Elections, on vacation, so whether
it has to do with Florida or whether it has to do
with something else. One time is when
Mr. Stainbrook was trying to get a new appointee,
I think the -- yes, the Republican I believe had
resigned or left and tried to get a new appointee.
And I was -- I actually have a picture on my phone
of me standing in the water talking to
Mr. Stainbrook.
Q. Okay.
A. And I often look at it to bring back
fond memories.
The other time I had taken my mom and
daughter on spring break in March of -- I guess it
was this year. And I got a call referring to a
news clip about how a bunch of things are
happening in Lucas County, and e-mails keep coming
and, you know, anybody have any suggestions on
what to do, what not to do, you know. We're --
more -- look, so much of my job, particularly with
Lucas County, is psychologist. How you deal with
this, how did you deal with this, questions along
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those lines. But nothing official, nothing
official.
Q. Who called you?
A. I want to say it was Jon Husted.
Q. Okay. And when he called, what was the
substance of the conversation?
A. Can you be more specific? When Jon --
when Jon Husted calls me in general, we talk about
a variety of things: Football, Alex going to
school. He was actually -- I know at one point my
mother's stepfather -- my stepfather, my mother's
husband, had passed away. He was calling to see
how the trip was going because I had been
complaining to him about how I was going to stay
in a one-room suite with an 80-year-old woman and
a 16-year-old girl and I wasn't sure how I was
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going to make that. So when Jon calls me,it's
not often topic related, it's often checking in.
So I don't believe it was a call to say, hey,
here's what we're doing; will you do this.
Q. You said that you received the phone
call when you were in Florida regarding the
transparency committee.
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
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A. I guess let me correct it.
Q. Yeah, please do.
A. I believe it was a top -- I believe it
was a topic that came up in the context of the
five or six things Jon Husted and I talk about.
Q. Okay.
A. We rarely talk about items specific.
We talk about current events, families, sometimes
we talk about charter schools.
Q. Friendly conversation, tinged with
politics.
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. No. Tinged with things that he wants
to talk about usually because he's driving
somewhere. Because I have no interest in charter
schools, and I talk to Jon Husted about charter
schools a lot, so sometimes it's a time filler.
Q. Okay. The topic that came up regarding
Lucas County when you were in Florida revolved
around what?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. Again, I -- I remember -- I don't know
what he said.
Q. Okay.
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A. And I don't think there was a he-said,
you know, she-said. I do recall saying, not only
in that conversation but in a couple
conversations, I don't know what else can be done
out there. Been up there a couple of times.
Whenever you talk to people behind closed doors,
they tell one story. Whenever you talk to them in
a different -- you know, I said I don't know what
else can be done. Because if nobody's willing to
talk outside of a closed room, I don't know what
you can do, Jon. And he said, well, what if we
just make them talk and have hearings? I said,
quote, hell, it can't be any worse than what we've
been trying to do for the last two years. That's
a quote.
Q. Okay. Had you been talking with the
Secretary from the time you left the office until
that conversation in Florida about the situation
in Lucas County?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. No.
Q. So there wasn't --
A. Part of the reason I left the Secretary
of Sta:te's office had to do with Lucas County,
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quite frankly. No. For my own psychological
well-being, no.
I Q. Okay. So there was a gap then in your
knowledge from specifically what you had done in
2013 to March of 2014 or thereabouts when you were
called.
A. Yeah.
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. Yeah. An absolute yeah. And again, to
be very straight with you, to the extent that
something would be in the newspaper maybe or maybe
not, I would pick it up. To the extent I'd run
into somebody in the Athletic Club and they would
mention something. But no -- there was no
off icial -- I was too busy doing Medicaid
expansion at the time and trying to learn that
issue, and I was dedicating most of my time to
that.
Q. Right. When the Secretary called you
in the spring of this year to talk about the Lucas
County situation, the topic of some type of
hearing apparently was discussed.
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. Again, I don't know -- I don't know if
--^
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it was a hearing. I don't know if it was that
formal of a process.
Q. Well, in the discussion was it simply a
matter of trying to identify options as to what
could be done at that point?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. You know, I cannot speak to that
conversation because I don't recall. I can tell
you -- I can tell you over the course of six
months to a year it was often said I don't -- I
said to him I don't know what else we can do up
there. I do also recall saying -- at one point
jokingly saying maybe there needs to be an airing
of the grievances. I do not believe it was that,
in that conversation. But the conversations with
Lucas County never changed. They really never
changed in form or -- they never changed.
Q. But there was an interruption in the
conversations you participated in from when you
left in May of 20 -- or the end of April of 2013,
the Secretary's office, and when you received the
call from Secretary Husted in the spring of this
year.
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
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A. I just don't recall any conversations.
Q. You don't remember anything in that
interval, other than -- with the Secretary. I'm
not going to say just generally. I mean, you
know, everybody talks at the Athletic Club.
A. Again, Bill, I want to be as straight
as possible.
Q. Yeah.
A. I don't. But we talk about five or six
topics all the time. I mean --
Q. And you just don't recall any specific
mentions of the Lucas County situation until this
spring and the call we're talking about?
A. I don't.
Q. Okay. When you received the call from
the Secretary in the spring, did he ask you to do
something at that point?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. No.
Q. How did matters proceed then from that
point? Were you called again to discuss Lucas
County?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. Not to talk about Lucas County
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specifically.
Q. Okay. How did it happen that you
became a member of the transparency committee?
j tA. I mean I guess you're going to have to
ask him. He makes the decisions. I've been with
him a long time. I've been on a lot of boards. I
will stop in at the office once a month or so, see
how things are going. And it was asked if I would
be willing to go up there again and -- that's the
answer to your question.
Q. Yeah.
A. I don't know. Tn7ould I be willing to go
up there and talk to these folks again.
Q. And do something?
A. And do something. And I do remember
saying we're not going to accomplish anything
behind closed doors. They're going to do the same
thing. We've been theresix times.
Q. Got you.
And did you have a discussion with the
Secretary or someone else about the process that
became the transparency committee?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. What do you mean?
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Q. Well, here's where I'm getting to, is
there is no animal of a transparency committee
in --
A. Sure.
Q. -- Chapter 35 of the Ohio Revised Code.
A. Sure.
Q. So I'm curious as to how this got put
together and were you a participant in the process
of putting together this basically ad hoc
committee?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. I told him that I would be willing to
sit and supervise and ask questions, for people to
come and talk and tell their story, and to see if
they would be willing to tell their story and
accusations in public and that I would be willing
to sit through that.
Q. Okay.
A. Now, the one thing I will say, and you
may be getting to it, so I don't want to --
Q. Oh, that's all right. That saves me a
question.
A. I don't want to preempt. I don't
remember how it was set up. I do remember,
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though, specifically that every meeting of the
transparency committee was called to order by the
Board of Elections. And the Board of Elections
turned their -- they called to order, they ordered
the meeting, they turned the meeting over to the
transparency committee. If there was a recess, we
would ask if we could have a recess. So they --
it was done in the course of their business as a
Board.
Q. Okay.
A. So it wasn't -- we didn't show up with
squatters rights and have a gavel and say come
speak.
Q. Right. in other words -- and I assume
you were not involved in whatever discussions
occurred between the Secretary's office and the
Board of Elections to actually structure how that
process worked.
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
Q. You're nodding no. I'm just putting
that --
A. Oh, no.
Q. Okay. And that's sort of what I took
from-the -- what I've seen in the transcript, too,
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is that in effect the transparency committee as
we've talked about it functioned as a committee of
the Lucas County Board of Elections rather than
anything else.
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MS. RICHARI?SON: Object to form.
Q. Is that your understanding?
A. Yeah. I took it that, look, the
context -- and I don't remember the -- the context
with which the transparency committee was created
was that it needed to be open, needed to be
subject to open meeting records, public
notification, and being an official role of the
Board because the Secretary of State's office just
can't go up there and start having hearings on
things, that's not in our purview. So the Board,
it was part of their meetings.
Q. Okay.
A. It's their court reporter. I would
assume it would be part of -- having not attended
their other meetings, I would assume it would be
like they would discuss other issues.
Q. Just as a little bit of background, you
served as the chairman of the transparency
committee. You're nodding yes.
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A. Yeah.
Q. Again, she's going to smack you.
A. Yes. I'm sorry. Yes.
Q. There were three other members:
Mr. Ruvolo, Ms. Brunner and Mr. Allison.
A. Correct.
Q. And do you know how they were selected
for this august body?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
MR. TODD: And characterization
probably.
A. I don't. I don't know.
Q. Okay. You were familiar with all three
of those individuals?
A. Oh, yes.
Q. And you'd worked with them before?
A. In different capacities.
Q. Okay. As the transparency committee
functioned, did it actually have an agenda when it
started in terms of certain witnesses to call, or
was this just an open forum, an invitation for
people to come in and air their grievances?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. I would say it was a structured -- it
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was a structured discussion from everybody who had
complained, wanted to complain, had issues with
either nepotism, had issues with people coming in
late to work, had issues about whether machines
were being tested right at the -- you know, so
everybody who had spoken to us who was an employee
there and even the people that weren't employees
there who we were aware of filed a complaint was
offered a chance to talk.
And what we tried to do in every
meeting was make sure that the Board members had
an opportunity to respond, that they got -- they
got to give opening statements. We, you know, let
them -- we did run it -- we did run it, sometimes
Mr. Stainbrook and I. I think there was one
situation where we tried to run it through
ourselves, we didn't try to let -- we didn't try
to let the Board members cross-examine thepeople.
Sometimes it was a little lax. But we were -- ^
look, we were trying to get -- we were trying to
get the issues out.
Q. Okay. As people came to present their
complaints or air their grievances, was any
testimony taken under oath?
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MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.
A. No. I felt -- do you want me to
follow-up with that?
Q. Oh, yeah. Please do.
A. One is I wasn't sure of the authority
to take oath. And, secondly, my personal belief
was I didn't want to put anybody in any harm
because the ability of the whole lot to see things
differently. I didn't want them to violate any
personal integrity if they were not telling the
truth. Which I -- which to be quite frank with
you, it was out of a caring situation.
Q. Caring about whom?
A. About the people giving the testimony.
Q. When?
A. I wanted them to hear the stories and I
wanted them to tell the stories and they all
contradicted each other every time. I'm not sure
I got the whole truth from any one person. I'm
also not sure I didn't get their viewpoints. So
that's the way --
Q. And opinions?
A. And opinions. And opinions. It was --
interestingly enough, I'm probably even more
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opinionated than -- they had fact sets that they
thought were out there, but no one ever proved
anything.
Q. Well, I take it that the transparency
committee's function then was to really allow for
a lot of different information to come in to the
attention of the members of the committee and you
87 1
were conducting sort of an open situation where
anyone could come in and say what they wanted to,
correct?
A. Yeah.
MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.
A. And the press.
Q. And the press?
A. And the press,
Q. And the public?
A. And the public. And what would happen
occasionally from all sides and everybody and
angle is the press would call with these stories
to the Secretary of State's office, and they would
have one side or the other side. So it was a good
time for everyone to air and have the press sit
there.
Q. Would there have been any discussion
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among the transparency committee members before
this process started as to how this was going to
be perceived?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. How it was going to be perceived?
Q. Yeah, how -- not perceived. I'm sorry.
I misspoke. I meant to say did you have any, for
example, an initial discussion amongst the members
of the committee as to the procedure that you were
going to follow?
A. We had a discussion in which I told the
Board members that it was my intent to go as long
as we needed to go, as far as we needed to go
until people were finished talking, so it was not
my intent to cut people off. And actually to the
extent that I got a fair amount of criticism from
my other transparency committee board meeting that
I let things go too far and let people talk too
long because they had other places to go. But,
no, it was pretty much under my -- my direction.
Q. Okay. And --
A. I mean -- and I guess when there were
legal questions, I would always defer to
Mr. Allison or to Ms. Brunner on more of the legal
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issues, courtesies based on what their expertise
may have been I think were granted.
Q• Understood.
When the process started, was there an
anticipated outcome from it; in other words, we
know that one of the things that happened at the
end of the transparency committee hearings was a
set of recommendations. Had it always been the
plan to come up with recommendations at the end?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. No. No.
Q. Okay.
A. As a matter of fact, I can tell you how
I viewed it. I viewed it as a way for people to
maybe air their grievances and be able to start
over, and itwas going to be so embarrassing that
they were going to find a way to regroup
themselves and move forward. There were things
that were found out in the transparency committee
that I think became very concerning.
Q. Okay.
A. Now, I will state as far as a report,
Secretary Husted did want to know what was being
said.
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go
^ . L7h-huh.
A. So depending on -- you know, did you
report what you heard? The answer would be yes,
you reported what you heard to Secretary Husted.
Was there a report or recommendations at the
beginning? That was not -- that was not the way
we were going.
Q. In other words, there was no plan at
the beginning to have recommendations, for
example, whether or not to replace the director or
certain Board members or anything, that was not
really contemplated at the time this open-ended
process began?
A. No. And you will have to ask
Mr. Damschroder, another lawyer, I don't even
think the Secretary needs to do anything along
' those lines to remove -- no, I don't think so,
that you don't even need to do those sorts of
things.
; Q. The transparency committee conducted
its hearings, we get to the end, there are certain
recommendations made. Was there ever a written
report generated by the transparency committee?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form and
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characterization of the hearing.
A. Gosh. The answer I believe is no.
Because I believe I let each person speak
publically because I thought going back to have a
report was against the transparency committee. I
think I let each member of the committee speak to
things that they found egregious, offensive. So I
believe to the extent that there was a report or
that discussion, that discussion was done via a
court reporter. So I believe people aired what
they saw, talked about their concerns, talked
about their complaints. But I don't believe there
was a written -- I know I certainly didn't write a
report.
Q. That would be something you would
probably remember.
A. Yeah. No, I know I didn't do that.
Q. After the last public hearing, did the
members of the transparency committee meet to
develop the recommendations which they ultimately
came to?
MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.
A. No. And I don't -- you're going to
have to talk to somebody in the office about this.
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There was a final meeting of the transparency
committee in which there was a hearing officer,
for lack of a better term.
Q. That's the correct term. But go ahead.
A. Okay. For lack of a better term, there
was a hearing officer in which the transparency
committee brought some people back, asked some
questions, and I believe the hearing officer did
that. But there was no -- there was no meeting of
what we are going to do. There was what I would
say was a 5 to 10 minute discussion in a recess to
discuss the order with which we were going to
discuss what each person wanted to say, and not
everybody quite frankly in the transparency
committee agreed. Everyone had a little bit
different feel and everyone knew what -- so to be
honest with you, everyone kind of knew what
someone was going to say. But it was by no
means -- you know, we agreed that Bill Todd had
brown hair, right, we didn't all agree --
Q. That would have been a few years ago,
Mr. Borgemenke.
A. Yeah, we didn't agree to those things.
Q. Well, I guess I'm a little puzzled
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because I thought that there were recommendations
that the transparency committee made that the
Secretary then acted on and called for a statutory
hearing based on that set of recommendations.
MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.
A. You know, gosh, Bill, to the extent
that I stated what my personal recommendati®ns
would have been, that could very well be the case.
To the extent that Jennifer Brunner stated what
her personal recommendations were, that could have
been the case. To the extent we all agreed on
those or submitted a report, I don't believe that
was the case.
Q. Sure.
A. But what I will say, I will say
everything that was donewas done with the court
reporter in the room, so that would be your best
-- that would be your best record into what was
said. There was nothing said that was not part of
that. So however that recreates history would be
where I would go.
Q. And I guess I'm used to in a hearing
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it's brought in, that the decision-makers will
discuss what they heard and saw and so on, and
they will arrive at a set of conclusions. And I'm
just wondering whether that process really took
place or not, because again it appears that the
Secretary acted as though the transparency
committee had made firm recommendations and a
course of action.
MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.
A. Again, I'd be more than happy to go
back and read -- read it. You could go back to
read it. I do know what was said. People didn't
dissent from anybody's opinion. There was
opinions that Jennifer Brunner had that I may not
have agreed with. I didn't write -- like, in a
three-judge panel, I did not write a dissenting
opinion. We kind of let people make the
statements as they wanted to make them. And to
the extent there may have been a three-to-five
minute discussion before we went back into the
room, Bill, that may have occurred. But there was
no formal -- there was just no formal process and
there's just no way it was more than 5 or 10
minutes about here's what I think I'm going to say
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or do you think you should let so-and-so come up.
You know, I think we talked about Kelly, you know,
do we want to make sure that Kelly, you know, has
a chance to be heard because her name was
mentioned a couple times. Those conversations
would occur literally on lunch breaks or --
Q. Sure.
A. -- Coke breaks. But --
Q. But you don't remember like a formal
decision-making process where the four of you sat
down and said, okay, we've listened to four nights
of this stuff and we're -- you know, Secretary
Husted is looking to us to give him some
recommendations as to a course of action to
follow. You don't recall anything like that?
MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.
A. it's in the deposition -- whatever was
-- whatever was there is what occurred.
Q. Okay.
A. There were no side -- there were just
no side meetings, there was nothing --
Q- Okay.
A. -- you know, like in The Nine where
they go in and the newest justice talks and then
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-- there was nothing like that.
Q. Or 12 Angry Men?
A. Yeah. There was nothing -- there was
nothing like that.
Q. Okay. Yeah, that's -- I was just
trying to figure out how the process concluded.
Okay. The transparency committee met
several times and invited many people to speak.
Did anything come up during the transparency
committee at all regarding Mr. Roberts?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. Ye s .
Q. Okay. And what do you recall came up?
A. Probably similar to what I discussed
about giving a little brief history of where we
had been. I think I even at some point said we've
been through -- excuse my numbers, we've been
through nine Board mernbers, three directors, five
executive directors, some of which were picked by
Republicans, some of -- so, yeah, I mean -- so,
yeah, the name would come up. There may have
been, although I just can't recall, when we asked
who was the director at the time that someone --
something occurred and an employee might have said
i
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Mr. Roberts. So, yes, it came up.
Q. But did Mr. Roberts testify to your
recollection?
A. He did not.
Q. Did not.. . '. . . . ,.^
Did there have -- excuse me, let me
withdraw that.
Was there any discussion of anything
that happened with regard to Mr. Roberts' tenure
other than as you've indicated?
MS. RICHARDSON: object to form.
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And what do you recall about
that?
A. The 10 to 12 years of the same group of
people not being able to operate properly and
focused on the wrong things, not focused on
elections. It occurred before Mr. Roberts, during
Mr. Roberts, and after Mr. Roberts. So to the
extent that he had a position during those times,
those stories were told.
Q. And stories were told regarding his
however long tenure and particular incidents that
happened. Do you remember any specifics of that?
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A. I believe somewhere in the transition
-- in the transparency committee it was said at
least once, maybe twice that Mr. Roberts did not
run -- that he did not run the Board, that he just
did what Mr. Stainbrook wanted him to do. And I
believe there were some questions as to
Mr. Roberts' timecards, time -- sign-in sheets.
Q. Got you.
A. Which of course I believe there were
some of those discussions.
Q. Qkay.
A. But it wasn't a major --
Q. That's all you can recall?
A. That's all I recall.
Q. Okay. During the course of the
transparency committee hearings I think you
mentioned that Ms. Bensman's name came up. What
do you recall regarding those discussions?
A. Mostly confrontations based on
different levels of election night.
Q. Let me stop you there.
A. Yeah.
Q. Election night from May of 2014, would
that have been the election night you're referring
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to or do you remember?
• A. I think it was probably both election
nights, but I'll have to go back and check. But
certainly --
Q. When you say both?
A. Would have also been '12 as well.
Q. November of 2012?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Okay. He just nodded yes.
A. Yes.
Q. I'm telling you, she's mean. She's
going to reach over and smack you if you don't
start speaking orally.
What do you recall about the incidents
and descriptions?
A. I remember people feeling -- gosh, I
don't want to put words in their mouths. You're
going to have to look at the testimony, so I am
summarizing it.
Q. Okay.
A. People feeling intimidated, people
feeling threatened, people feeling that she was in
improper locations, telling staff what to do but
not having a role.
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Now, I also -- if my recollection
serves me, she was also appointed as an observer
which does give you -- you know, again, when
people make accusations, you don't know if the
people are observers or not.
Q. Right.
A. It does give you a different set of
abilities to do things.
Q. Particularly locations?
A. No. No. It really depends -- it
really depends on, really depends on the Board --
the Board situation, where the observers are, you
know, what the Board decides, how aggressive the
observer is going to be, whether the observer gets
all access to everything at all times or whether
the observer's on the Board. Those policies tend
to vary.
Q. Whether they should or not, but that's
an editorial comment, so --
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
And --
MR. TODD: I'll withdraw that. That's
a topic for another day.
A. Well, Mr. Blackwell I think --
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Q. Well, we could spend a whole day
talking about --
A. No, no.
Q. -- the observer statutes were changed
after that.
A. Yeah. But what -- but what I would say
is this is the best of both worlds. We're a
parochial state, we have a parochial county, we
have 88 different places, that's why people like
Ohio. Those things come with their efficiencies
and their lack of efficiencies.
Q. Couldn't agree more, okay.
Any other specific testimony ox-
concerns regarding Ms. Bensman that you recall
from the transparency hearing?
A. Ms. Bensman's name fairly or unfairly
has come up frequently throughout the last three
years in the transparency committee as well.
People questioning her role in the Board, what she
does and doesn't do.
I believe Mr. DeGidio -- and to the
extent I'm confusing Meghan or Kelly, I apologize.
But Mr. DeGidio had words with Ms. Bensman on
several occasions, but youwill have to speak to
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him about those situations. And he questioned why
those interactions would occur with -- with a --_
an observer and a board member.
I also believe that there were -- there
was testimony in which Ms. Bensman was frequently
relaying information, good or bad, to the press
during the process of the election. Like I said,
good, bad, I'm not sure it's allowed or not
allowed, but I believe that that kind of testimony
came out.
Q. And I was going to ask you, we'll start
with that last question, Mr. Borgemenke. It is
permissible for observers in Ohio to relay
anything that they observe to the press, isn't it?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. I think -- I think it is.
Q. Do you remember any specifics of -- let
me withdraw that. You mentioned that Mr. DeGidio
had some encounters with Ms. Bensman at some
point. Did that information come to your
attention during the transparency committee
hearing or had you been aware of that while you
were still at the Secretary of State's office?
MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.
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A. Both.
Q. Okay. Was Mr. DeGidio at the
transparency committee and offer his story?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Was he still a member of the
Board at that time?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And I believe you said you
discussed whether or not Ms. Bensman should speak
to the transparency committee.
A. I believe we made the offer that
Ms. Bensman could because her name came up a
couple of times, that -- I know I had mentioned to
Mr. Stainbrook certainly in the hallway and I
think I also mentioned it in the committee that it
-- that if she would like to speak, her name came
up a lot, that she should be offered that
opportunity. Because I do believe people using
her -- her name was brought up several times. And
I thought that if she wanted to address that
situation, she should be able to do this. And I
have a vague recollection that she wrote either a
statement or an e-mail that was read into the
record.
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Q. Rather than coming up and personally
speaking to the comittee.
A. That is my recollection.
Q. Okay.
MR. TODD: What time is it, folks?
MS. GALLAGHER: 12:30.
Thereupon, a luncheon recess is taken
at 12:30 p.m.
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105
Friday Afternoon Session
September 5, 2014, 1:14 p.m.
BY MR. TODD:
Q. Okay. Mr. Borgemenke, before we went
off the record we were talking a little bit about
the transparency committee hearing.
A. You can call me Scott now.
Q. Okay. Thank you. Because it will save
me several syllables.
At the time of the transparency
committee hearing, we know there were four members
on that group: You, Mr. Ruvolo, Mr. Allison and
Ms. Brunner, correct?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. All of you in one capacity or another
had_had prior involvement with the affairs in
Lucas County; is that true?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. Yes. That would be right, yes.
Q. In other words, no one came to that
group, the committee, without having prior
experiences with the situation at the Lucas County
Board of Elections?
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106
MS. RICHARDSON: Same objection.
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And for example, Jennifer
Brunner had appointed the director who was
removed, Linda Howell, that we discussed earlier.
MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.
A. I think she was the Secretary of State.
I don't -- I guess I would say no, she didn't
appoint her because the Board makes the hirings
and the firings.
Q. Okay. But do you know whether or not
she was the one that directed the hiring?
MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.
A. I would -- I don't know. But I would
be surprised because I don't think she has the
authority to hire and fire. I think that's a
Board action. I think that's all a Board action.
Q. Okay. Mr. Ruvolo and Mr. Allison both
had been involved with the Lucas County Board of
Elections as well, correct?
MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.
A. Yeah. I think they had been up there.
Q. Okay. And, for example, Mr. Ruvolo was
at some of the time period we talked about an
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actual member of the Board of Elections.
A. He was.
Q. And do you know whether it's Mr. Ruvolo
who led to Mr. Roberts' resignation because he was
so obstinate and refused to adopt any new
policies?
MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.
A. Could you restate?
Q. Let me rephrase that.
107
My understanding is that one of the
main reasons that Mr. Roberts resigned as director
was because of Mr. Ruvolo's refusal to allow the
Board to consider policies that needed to be
adopted.
MS. RICHARDSONs Objection.
Q. Did that matter ever come to your
attention?
A. I'm not sure I even understand the
question. How --
Q. Mr. Ruvolo was on the Board of
Elections while Mr. Roberts was the director.
A. Yeah.
Q. Okay. Do you recall that?
A. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
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Q. Okay. And is it -- do you recall that
one of the reasons if not the main reason
Mr. Roberts resigned was in fact because
Mr. Ruvolo was so difficult to deal with as a
Board member that he couldn't accomplish any of
the things necessary to have a smooth running
office?
MS. RICHARDSON: Obj ection .
A. I -- I guess two things. I don't
believe that was mentioned in his letter of
resignation.
Q. Okay.
A. And there's -- that's why there's three
Board members. So -- that's why there's three
other Board members.
Q. Oh, at the Board of Elections?
A. At the Board of Elections.
Q. Yeah.
A. So it was not mentioned in his -- I
don't know.
Q. Okay.
A. It was not mentioned in his letter.
There are three other Board members.
Q. Okay.
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A. So that's my answer.
Q. Okay.
A. I think it's a design that no one Board
member, as Mr. Stainbrook could remind me all the
time, have the ability to do anything but three
do.
Q. And then the other member of the
transarenc committee, Mr. Allison apparently1^ y had
been involved and done some type of management
review at the Board of Elections in Lucas County.
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. Y e s .
Q. Okay. And was that a management review
that was conducted by both Mr. Allison and
Mr. Ruvolo while you were the -- at the Secretary
of State's office?
A. I'm going to say yes, but there's a
chance that might not be right. But I think the
answer's yes to that.
Q. Okay. So it's fair to say that none of
the four members came to this transparency
committee meeting with their mind a blank slate?
MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.
A. This is going to sound glib and is not
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inten.ded to sound glib. I think they all had a
blank slate because it's so confusing you have no
ability but to go up there and listen. There --
it is too -- it is too confusing up there to be
able to connect any dots or come up with any --
so, no, I would argue everybody wanted it to work,
everybody.
Q. Did you feel at the end of the public
sessions with the transparency committee you had
sorted out the confusion?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And is that why you adopted
certain recommendations as a transparency
committee?
A. So what was your previous question? I
want to make sure I understood your previous
question.
Q. Okay.
A. Do you think we
Q. Came to some conclusions about what was
really going on.
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. Yes.
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Q. Okay. And what were those conclusions?
° A. Total malaise and dysfunction.
Q. Okay.
A. And, you know, it's like a football
team or anything else, you can have good and
talented and smart people and they can't work
together and they can't move the ball forward.
Emotions in the group clearly overruled common
sense and moving the ball forward. So to the
extent that there was clarity, that there was
going to be no reconciliation in being able to
move forward with those people, it was much -- it
was much like a divorce. The facts and the
abilities of the Board to operate in the best
interest of the people for the State of Ohio and
Lucas I think could not be served with the people
at that table.
Q- And you believe that despite their
prior involvement in the affairs in Lucas County
Board of Elections, that the four people on this
transparency committee were fair and impartial and
able to come to those conclusions in an unbiased
manner?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
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A. I believe you had four of the most
competent people in the State of Ohio on how
teamwork, Board operations and elections are
important, and skills, abilities, the ability to
get along and emotion all worked equally. And I
believe that nobody puts in that kind of time
without it wanting to work.
And I guess in follow-up, Bill, you
know, you said earlier there's no reason to have
transparency committee
Q. No. I said there's nothing
A. Right.
Q. -- in the statute.
A. Right. But there's no reason to do it,
nothing calls for it, it only calls for hearings
and removals. I -- I actually believe in my heart
that that transparency committee and those
recommendations were to try to make that system
work, that I believe that was the intent going up
there. That's what I truly believe because I
don't think you had to go through that kind of
hours and pain to get to any outcome.
Q. Well, I mean, you -- under the
circumstances, and we know that the
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recommendations of the transparency committoe
became in effect allegations substantiating
removal of the Board members. And I just think it
would have been better to have a fair and
impartial group, an unbiased group to conduct
those matters rather than four people who had been
up to their eyeballs in it before.
MS. RICHARDSON: Objection to the form
and to the multiple errors of characterization.
A. I disagree with the question.
Q. Okay. That's why I'm asking the
question and waiting for a answer.
A. No, I'm not being -- I don't think this
was based on allegations. We didn't go up there
to determine what was truthful and what was not
truthful because there's no ability to do so.
I've been told by one group that people were put
on the Board of Elections so they would waive
legal fees. I was told by another group that that
didn't happen. I was told by another group that
while residency can be a park bench, they stay at
the Comfort Inn. I was told by another -- I was
told by another group that John Irish hired
strippers at a --
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L Q. Democratic county fundraiser?
'•i A. -- Democratic county fundraiser.
s Q. Well, I think everybody knows that.
A. Well, no more than anything else in the
paper. I guess if the paper is going to be a
guide, then I would submit all the Blade articles
for the last 10 years.
Q. Okay.
A. Thanks for letting me play again
attorney. I don't think we -- I don't think we
made anybody guilty or innocent. I think we found
things that were very unusual and impossible to
manage in a public body. Nepotism policies,
supervisory policies. You know what -- you know,
and I say this -- again I say it a little tongue
in cheek, divorces happen and there are good
people involved in those divorces. That doesn't
mean they can live together or rebuild a model
house or run an election. And so I would say it
wasn't about accusations. I would say it was
about the inability to communicate and understand.
Q. And define --
A. Which I think by the way is really
important in a public body. That's -- that's the
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old democracy to me.
Q. I agree.
But you would agree with me that when
you have a divorce, one of the two spouses doesn't
get to sit on the bench and make the decisions.
MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.
A. I don't understand that.
Q. Well, Mr. Ruvolo was part of the
problem; he was on the transparency committee.
Ms. Brunner was part of the problem; she was on
the transparency committee. Mr. Allison had made
recommendations which apparently weren't followed;
he was on the transparency committee. You told us
you quit your job because you were so unhappy with
Lucas County. I mean, how does -- how could any
of these people be fair and impartial?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form
A. No. Bill --
MS. RICHARDSON: -- and it
mischaracterized the testimony that Mr. Borgemenke
gave earlier.
A. I respect your line of questioning.
It's a good question. It's a good try. Jon
Husted made the decision. Nobody in the
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. transparency committee made a decision on
anything. Jon Husted made the decision. I'm
going to say this tongue in cheek as well, I've
worked for public officials my whole life. And if
anybody makes a decision, he makes the decisions.
He made that decision. Nobody made a decision.
As a matter of fact, everybody on that
transparency committee, and I know Mr. Stainbrook,
and we've been friends, and we may -- we'll
continue to be friends. People make accusations
all the time. We didn't accuse anybody of doing
anything.
Q. And I respect your position on that.
A. TrIe - _
Q. I really do, Scott. But --
I A. I don't know where Tony -- I don't --
Q. Yeah. And, you know, what I guess what
I'm really concerned about here is that we have a
process which is not called for in the Code that's
used as essentially the record to make a
determination in an administrative hearing without
there being another record made. And it's very,
very unusual. I've never seen anything like this
in 40 years of practicing law in Ohio.
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MS. RICHARDSON: Objection. I'm not
sure there's a question on the table. And --
MR. TODD: I don't think there is.
That was a soliloquy.
MS. RICHARDSON: Obviously, I object to
the characterizations both of testimony and to the
facts at issue.
Q. But you realize that those
recommendations became -- within a matter of
perhaps 36 hours, the allegations used under a
statutory process to remove people from appointed
office in the State.
MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.
A. I -_
Q. But that did happen, correct?
MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.
A. I don't agree with that.
Q. You don't think that happened?
A. No, I don't agree with that. And I
know you've been a lawyer for 40 years, and I
think you're a pretty good lawyer. But things
happen on the House floor all the time, one
hearing, two hearings, three hearings, five
hearings, the body makes the decision.
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- I don't -- I'll be very -- I'm going to
be -- I'll be really frank with you. I think the
^j transparency committee was an ability to save the
people there, to tell their story because of the
way the Code is written. And that is that the
party chairman makes these appointments. That's
what I believe. And again -- and this is not to
be antagonistic.
Q. No.
A. It's not to be antagonistic.
Mr. Stainbrook is on record five or six times
asking for the transparency committee to come up
there and take a look at things. And he
absolutely did call me and he absolutely --
Q. I agree.
A. And he did that. How is that out of
order? That was -- that was an ask for help and
that's what happened. I guess I'm just confused.
I'm sure -- you know, from where you sit, you see
things differently.
Q. Yeah. It's because as you know from
having, for example, served on the dental board,
that people come forward and they make
accusations. There is a due process hearing in
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; which witnesses are presented. There are counsel
present on both sides, and you go through a very
formal, regular process, and then a conclusion is
reached by a hearing officer, and then it goes to
the Board for decision.
Here we have a bifurcated process where
there is a group of people, many of whom who have
an ax to grind, certainly in the case of
Mr. Ruvolo who's involved in many of these events.
And that whole group of allegations and statements
and whatever happened during all of those
proceedings then become the record that
Mr. Damschroder uses to recommend the termination
of members of a Board of Elections.
I mean I've never seen anything like
it. I mean that's why I ask the question: Do you
think it would have been better if we're -- if
that was going to be the end result of the
process, that we started with the four people on
the transparency committee being people who had an
open mind and were uninvolved and had no
background and no hearing -- understanding of that
process before?
A. Counselor --
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MS. RICHARDSON: And I'm going to
object.
MR. TODD: Okay.
THE WITNESS: Sorry.
MS. RICHARDSON: Again, I'm not sure
that there's a question on the table.
MR. TODD: No, there is.
MS. RICHARDSON: I'm starting to lose
track of who is testifying. There were a lot of
characterizations there about facts not in
evidence, about testimony that I think
misrepresents testimony given so far, and I'm not
sure what the question is.
Q. Well, the question simply stated is:
Would this process have been served better had the
members of the transparency committee not had any
prior knowledge of the circumstances in Lucas
County and come into the process completely with
an open mind?
MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.
A. I --
MS. RICHARDSON: I still don't
understand precisely what the question is. To the
extent that you understand a question, you can go
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_ ahead and answer. But I'll object again to the
characterization.
MR. TODD: Let me --
MS. RICHARDSON: I object to the
characterization.
MR. TODD: I appreciate that,
Ms. Richardson.
Q. Let me read it back. Well, the
question is simply stated: Would this process
have been better served had the members of the
transparency committee not had any prior knowledge
of the circumstances in Lucas County and come into
the process completely with an open mind?
MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.
A. I think that question makes statements
of fact that aren't true. I think you're making
statements that people did not have an openmind
going in. I fundamentally -- I disagree with
that.
Secondly, accusation --- this was not
about -- people aired accusations against each
other. They aired accusations. The transparency
committee made a report on the functionality, not
on the guilt or the innocence or the accusation of
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L X versus Y, but the ability of this group to make
a decision for the betterment of the elections in
tj Lucas County. No -- at no point did anybody stand
up and say Bill Todd did this.
Q. I hope not.
A. Well, but at no point did anybody make
any of those accusations. Things came out.
Q. Let me stop you right there,
Mr. Borgemenke. When you say no one made
accusations, you mean no one on the transparency
committee
A. I'm sorry.
Q. -- made accusations?
A. No.
Q. People did come forward and air their
grievances?
A. Absolutely.
Q. Okay.
A. The whole group that came and sat
across the table made accusations against
everybody else, absolutely positively, yes.
Q. Okay.
A. There was -- there was one interaction
that was shut down, there was one interaction
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l where Board members were making accusations
against other Board members. In my mind, and I
can speak to my mind and I can speak to my
opinion, that's not what we were there for. I've
known -- look, I've known these folks now for
about three years. You've been working with them
for 90 days. These stories are very, very, very
confusing. You cannot unwind these stories. But
what you can do is say is this a group of people
that can go forward and operate a Board of
Elections? And -- and with Ohio being a swing
state and seeing what we've seen in Florida, the
functionality of our counties who are very strong
in the elections process, their functional.ity is
extremely important to making sure that this
process gets done right. I believe -- I believe,
and I can certainly speak for myself, it was the
ability with which these people could function as
a team and as a group.
Q. Okay. Back to my question which was:
Would the process have been better served had the
four members of the transparency committee had no
prior knowledge of the circumstances in Lucas
County before this hearing process began?
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F- MS. RICHARDSON: I'm going to repeat
all of my prior objections and add that the
question has been asked and answered.
A. Am I allowed to ask you a question?
Q. Sure. Absolutely.
A. Everybody's aware of the dysfunction in
Lucas County. It's been documented for years in
the Blade. If there were a trial, would we have
to rule out all the residents because they read
the Blade? I don't --
Q. Well, it's always a matter of degree,
Scott. I mean, it's like I've been involved inI
Lucas County, ma be ^y you don't know it -
A. Sure.
Q. -- for the last four or five years on
these matters and in one capacity or another. And
in fact the last time I was against this group on
behalf of the State party. But it's a matter that
there is a point at which when you have so much
prior experience, such as Mr. Ruvolo, who may have
very well been part of the problem, but by the way
this committee was structured and put together, he
became a -- the judge and jury even though he may
have been somebody on the dock. That's a problem.
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LI MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.
MR. TODD: Thank you. I'd be surprised
if you hadn't objected to that.
A. I guess there are two things to that,
Bill. One is I think you're overstating any one
member's influence on the outcome. Secondly is --
secondl is if I concede toy your argument that
that's the case, which I do not, I would use that
same argument as why Mr. Roberts and Ms. Bensman
cannot be appointed because wouldn't it be better
for people to have no knowledge of what happens at
the Board of Elections to get appointed.
Q. Well, I mean, Mr.
A. Well
Q. I'm glad you got to that, Scott,
because that's exactly the argument that
Mr. Damschroder used, is they shouldn't be
appointed because they have prior knowledge of
what's happened at the Board.
MS. RICHARDSON: There's no question on
the table.
A. Yep.
Q Q. I mean --
A. I --
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L MS. RICHARDSON: I --
Q. Do you see benefit in having prior
knowledge of the situation at the Board in serving
in the role either as director or as a Board
member?
MS. RICHARDSON: And I'm going to
object to at least the first --
MR. TODD: Okay.
MS. RICHARDSON: -- half of that
statement before we got to the question, and to
the extent that we're representing testimony that
again Mr. Borgemenke was not privy to and that I
believe mischaracterizes the testimony. And I'm
not sure that I understand precisely what question
is pending on the table. If you understand, you
can go ahead and answer subject to those
objections.
Q. Okay. Let me restate the question.
It was: Do you see the benefit in
having prior knowledge of the situation at the
Board and serving in the role either as a director
or as a Board member?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. Can you restate the question? I wasn't
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listening. I'm still trying to -- I
Q. That was a restatement.
A. Well, resay it. I--
Q= Okay. Let me restate it again.
A. Can you reask the question? I wasn't
listening so I
Q. Okay.
A. You don't have to restate it.
Q. I'll read it again because I'll never
figure it out.
A. Yeah.
Q. Do you see the benefit in having prior
knowledge of the situation at the Board and
serving in the role either as a director or as a
Board member?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. I don't believe anybody who was on the
transparency committee had any ax to grind or had
anything -- any other motives than to try and to
air out what the problems were in a public format
and to in their opinion make a determination if
that Board could function as a team. And that's
-- that's all I got. But I -- I will -- Bill, I
take it a little personally, too. I think I
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L certainly tried very hard not to make any personal
accusations on people because it was a
he-said/she-said situation, so I
Q. Obviously.
Let's go back again to the end of the
transparency committee process. And did the
transparency committee actually publically
recommend that the Secretary terminate three Board
members and two employees, the director and the
deputy director? That's my understandingas to
what your recommendation was.
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. I think the answer's yes, but it would
be in the record.
Q- Okay.
A. I think the answer's yes.
Q. But it's your recollection that there
was, in fact, that recommendation that three Board
members and two employees be terminated?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. If that's what's in the --
Q. Okay.
A. I can't --
Q. Understood.
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A. If that's what's in the record, then
that's what's in the record and that's what
Q. And since there were four members of
the Board and you've described an ongoing,
ten-year plus situation with lots of issues up
there, why didn't you recommend all four be
terminated?
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MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. I believe that Mr. Irish had not been
on the Board long enough to be involved in the
cultural dysfunction that had occurred. I also
believe Mr. Irish had made motions to take steps
to try to address the problem prior to a
transparency committee. And that's why I--
that's where I was.
Q. Okay. After that conclusion to the
transparency committee, which I believe was around
the 9th of May-ish, did you discuss your
recommendations with anyone else?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. Since when?
Q. The recommendations at the final
meeting were on Friday, May 9th of this year.
A. Okay.
I
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- Q. Okay. Did you discuss those
° recommendations with anyone else other than make
that public pronouncement?
MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.
A. May I talk to counsel?. . . . . . . . .
Q. Sure. You guys can go out if you want.
(A short recess is taken.)
A. Thank you.
Q. Uh-huh. I think before we took this
break the question that I had asked was after the
transparency committee concluded its last hearing
on May 9th, did you discuss the recommendations of
the transparency committee with anyone?
A. Yeah. And I think what I wanted to ask
-- what I wanted to ask counsel about because I
was unsure --
Q. You don't have to tell me.
A. No. No. I want to tell you because I
wasn't sure. I think I misunderstood the
question. Once I made the pro -- once I made the
statement
Q. Right.
A. -- on the record
Q. Right.
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A. -- did the press come and ask about it,
the answer would be yes.
Q. Okay.
A. So, yeah, the answer would be yes. Did
I -- so I did discuss it, but nobody outside of
what was said.
Q. Understood.
A. Does that make sense?
Q. Yeah, absolutely.
Because I was going to ask then
specifically did you speak to anyone at the
Secretary of State's office regarding the
recommendations of the transparency committee?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. I guess the answer would be partially.
And the reason it is partially is because the
Secretary of State's office was there and heard
the recommendation and, thus, how did it go, I
would imagine the answer's yes.
Q. Okay.
A. But I mean --
Q. Well, what I would -- was someone
specifically in attendance that night from the
Secretary of State's office as a representative of
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1 the secretary's office?
? A. I don't remember. It should be in the
3 record.
Q. Okay. Do you recall having any
conversations or discussions with anyone at the. .. . . . . . . . . ..
Secretary of State's office regarding the
transparency committee proceedings once they
concluded?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And who did you talk to?
A. Probably Matt Masterson.
Q. Bat Masterson?
A. Matt Masterson.
Q. Oh, okay, Matt Masterson. Sorry.
A. Jack Christopher. But the context of
that was this was the most exhausting thing I've
ever been through in my life. There was no
content issues. It was how did it go, I'm
exhausted, hope we never have to do this again.
But there was nothing-- because there was nothing
-- you know, it spoke for itself, there was
nothing more to say.
Q. Did you discuss the matters that had
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.l occurred during the course of the transparency
committee hearing with the Secretary?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. To the extent he said how did your day
go and I said really tired, yes, the answer would
be yes.
Q. Okay. And it's your testimony then you
never spoke substantially to anyone at the
Secretary's office, including the Secretary,
regarding the matters that were discussed at the
transparency committee?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. After the report was written?
Q. Correct. No, not after the report was
written. After the last hearing. Because I think
you -- you told us you didn't do a report.
A. I'm sorry. After Matt's report was
written. I
Q. Yeah. We'll talk about Matt's report
in a minute.
A. I had no conversations that I recall
from the time we had our last transparency hearing
to the time Matt Damschroder oversaw a process.
Q. Okay._. ^
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A. After that, I -- after that until Matt
had a -- whatever he wrote, I didn't have anything
until after that had come out.
Q. Okay. And were you actually in
attendance at all at the hearing that Matt
Damschroder conducted?
A.
Q.
hearing?
Yes.
Okay. And did you participate in that
A. Yes.
Q. And what was the extent of your
participation?
A. I asked a lot of questions of people to
say this is our understandi.ng of what was said in
the transparency committee, what do you have to
say about that? We kind of went through a very
quick -- a synopsis of what I think -- I don't
know who else was up there. Tony DeGidio was up
there. Jon was up there, if he was spoken to.
Other people came up to speak.
Q. Okay. Let me try to clarify for the
record what you are describing.
A. Yeah.
Q. You were at the hearing that Matt
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Damschroder conducted.
A. Yes.
Q. And you presented things that are your
impressions as to what had occurred at the
transparency committee hearings, correct?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. I projected what people had said they
said and asked if they said it.
Q. Right. Right.
A. Yeah.
Q. At that point when Mr. Damschroder was
conducting that hearing, did you have the
transcripts yet from the transparency committee
meetings or hearings?
A. I don't know that I had the transcripts
ever.
Q. Okay. Did you ask people -- you said
you asked people questions at the hearing. Who
were you asking questions of?
A. I just want to make sure I get this
right. They came -- people would come forward,
sit down. I would ask questions like, you know,
this was said on this date; can you provide
details to what you said to the -- you know, last
I
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Tuesday, you said this in the transparency
committee; can you tell us a little more about
this? Is there anything that you've seen
differently from this? Those kinds of
discussions.
Q. In other words, you were asking
questions of people who were in effect witnesses
at Mr. Damschroder's hearing?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
Q. Correct?
A. I guess if that's a term you want to
use.
Q. I don't know what the term is.
A. Yeah. I don't know what the term is.
Q. Yeah, but the people --
A. Yes. And it wasn't just me. It was
the people on the transparency committee would ask
some people questions about --
Q. Okay.
A. -- we heard this, were you aware that
there wasn't a policy, should there have been a
policy. Much like what you're --just questions
like that.
Q. Understood.
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During that process, to the best of
;, your recollection, was anyone ever put under oath
regarding what they said?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. No.
Q. Okay.
A. I
Q. I'd asked you before whether or not you
had discussed the recommendations to the
transparency committee with anyone and your answer
was -- other than of course the press and so on,
the people you talked to immediately after the
transparency committee hearing that, no, you had
not spoken to anyone about it until the conclusion
of the hearing that was conducted by
Mr. Damschroder.
So let's start with that as the
foundation. From the point in time of the end of
the hearing that was conducted by Mr. Damschroder
to the present, have you discussed the
recommendations of the transparency committee?
A. Nothing --
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form. Go
ahead.
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L4 A. Nothing of substance.
Q.Q• Okay. And --
A. And the process, exhausting.
Q. Yeah. And let me ask you again
specifically have you ever spoken to anyone at the
Secretary's office or the Secretary himself
regarding the conclusions of the transparency
committee?
A. Not that I recall because there's --
it's there. So not that I recall, because
everything I said is there and so --
Q. Okay. Let me ask you to take a look at
what's been previously marked here yesterday as
Relator' sE.xhib5 t B.
A. Do I have that?
Q. I think you will. There you go.
A. Oh, here it is.
Q. Okay. And take a minute and
familiarize yourself with E-xlriibs.t B.
Mr. Damschroder identified it yesterday. But I
want you to take a look at it real quick to see if
you can recognize what that document is.
A. I can make the assumption that this
is --
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Q No --
MS. RICHARDSON: I don't think there's
a question on the table.
Q. Yeah, I have a specific question.
A. Okay.
Q. And that was have you ever seen it
before?
A. I don't think I've seen this letter.
Q. Did you discuss this letter withanyone
before it was sent on June 24th, 2014?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form. And
he just testified that he hasn't seen this letter.
MR. TODD: Yes, and I respect that.
But I want to know whether he spoke to anyone
about the fact this letter was being prepared and
sent.
A. The orily
MR. TODD: Thank you for having me
clarify.
A. The only thing that I recall is that I
was told that it was coming out -- whatever was
coming out today or tomorrow or something along
those lines.
MS. RICHARDSON: And just for the
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record, have we described today what document
we're looking at? I know we marked it yesterday
and we're referring to it, but just for context if
we can clarify what --
Q. Yeah. Go ahead. Identify it for the
record, if you will, Scott, what this document is
that's marked as Exhibit B.
A. It appears to be the letter notifying
that Jon Stainbrook, the chairman of the party,
that his nominations presented to the Secretary of
State's office -- well, I guess I know the
outcome, but I haven't read the outcome -- that
they were not appointed.
Q. Okay. Did you discuss with anyone at
the Secretary of State's office the
recommendations this spring to appoint Kelly
Bensman and/or Ben Roberts to the Board of
Elections in Lucas County?
A. Did i --
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. Did I discuss -- after the transparency
committee, I'm not involved in the appointment
process.
Q. Okay. And I was going to ask you, did
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L -- if you had any discussions at all with anyone
?i at the Secretary's office. And I believe it's
3 your testimony that, no, you had no discussions
6 whatsoever.
> A. I mean, I don't have a role in the
appointment process.
Q. okay. I'm going to ask you a couple
questions about the letter -- about the content of
the letter but obviously not about the letter
since you were not involved in it.
MS. RICHARDSON: I'm going to preface
with an objection that he has testified that he
has not seen this letter before today and the
document speaks for itself.
MR. TODD: Yes. Thank you.
Q. I'm simply going to ask you about
certain facts contained in the letter and ask you
about your knowledge of the stated allegations or
facts. And the one in particular that I wanted to
ask you about is there's an allegation under the
category of Kelly Bensman that she was involved in
verbal and physical altercations at the Lucas
County Board of Elections, and given the
information that you have about the circumstances
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up there, are you aware of any information that
would substantiate that allegation?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form and
representations of the letter.
A. I guess I'm confused. I am not aware
nor was I involved in writing the letter.
Q. Right. I'm not asking you that.
A. Yeah.
Q. I'm asking you whether you know of any
verbal or physical altercations directed towards
Ms. Bensman.
A. I know that in the transparency
committee Ms. Bensman's name was -- I just don't
remember the details. But Ms. Bensman was
mentioned in altercations around election night.
And I believe I said, as I said before, it's been
on a couple different election nights. That's my
recollection, but I would refer back to whatever
the transcript says from the --
Q. And you don't remember any of the
specific details of what was involved in those
alter -- were they altercations?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. I don't.
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Q. Okay. There's another statement in
° there about Ms. Bensman being removed from the
government center, which I take it is Lucas County
government center. Do you remember anything from
the transparency committee hearing that would
substantiate that?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. I don't.
Q. So --
A. But again I guess I would go back to if
it was said, it's there.
Q. If it was said, it was there. But you
don't remember anything specifically.
MS. RICHARDSON: Objection. Asked and
answered.
Q. You don't remember -- the question is:
You don't remember any specifics that would
substantiate the statement in the letter that
Ms. Bensman was removed from the government
center?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. I vaguely remember a discussion about
asking for removal, whether it's from the
government center or from a room or from
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!. somewhere, in which someone may have asked for it
tohave occurred and trying to figure out if there
was a policy. I do believe, you'll have to ask
Mr. Damschroder or someone else, that there is a
policy laid out in Code and/or --
Q. In a directive?
A. -- in a directive that people can be
removed. That's my recollection.
Q. But you don't remember any specifics
that would underlie that Ms. Bensman be removed
from the government center.
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form and
again asked and answered.
Q. Are you still thinking? Or did we put
you to sleep with all of these boring questions?
A. No. I -- everybody in the place, top
to bottom, made accusations about leaking
information, physical removal, standing over
people's shoulders, screaming at each other,
sitting in the backs of cars, not being present
for meetings, when there's an altercation that
occurs, the Board members don't have meetings or
discussions. And -- and, Bill, I guess I'd have
to say we're going to have to go back to the
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l deposition. They all accuse everybody of
everything. And I don't know that any of them are
any more right or wrong than each other. What I
do know is it's no way to run a democracy in an
election, so I -- I pause -- I pause in the names,
the accusations, the acts, the people, the teams,
the political parties, all blur together. He
pushed me, she pushed me. He stood in a doorway,
she wouldn't let me leave the doorway. The
policeman was there, the policeman was told -- so
it was all said about all of them all of the time.
And so I want to be as honest as possible, they
all accused -- everybody accused everybody of
everything. And I don't know if -- and my
recollection is I didn't know if it was Kelly, the
security guard, I know it was in the newspaper,
that should all be documented in the transparency
report. If so, if it's there, it's there. But,
you know, this to me is what was indicative of the
problem.
Q. I understand that, Scott. But again
I'll go back to don't you think it would have been
helpful during the transparency committee to put
these witnesses under oath, to test these random
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accusations that people were making? I mean
they're no better than rumor or innuendo when
they're just made -- I don't care if they're in a
public hearing or in a private closet. If they're
not under oath, they don't mean anything.
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to the form and
the characterization and misrepresentation of
testimony.
A. You keep going back to a premise that
did not exist, in that these were accusations
about people. This is dysfunction of a unit that
are responsible -- that are responsible for
interacting. This wasn't -- this wasn't about who
did what to whom. Who could tell up there. This
is about the way in which they interact as a
governmental body and the gridlock and the lack of
democracy and quite frankly the lack of faith that
people have that these things are being run
professionally and done properly.
Q. And that has -- we still have the same
director there that we did at the time of the
transparency committee hearings, right?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. I think so, but I don't -- I think so,
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but I don't know.
Q. And she would have been instrumental in
some of the problems that you are talking about?
MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.
A. I'm trying to think what was said about
her for a second.
Q. Apparently something to the effect that
you recommend that she be terminated.
A. Boy, I think that's probably right.
Which once again proves that the transparency
committee didn't make the decisions.
Q. It was really the Secretary who made
the decision.
A. Right.
Q- Okay. Let's go down and take a look a
little bit lower in Exhibit B only because again
it's a good reference point. There's a statement
in there that Mr. Roberts at one point says he
served as the director for five months in 2011.
A. Uh-huh.
Q. And three paragraphs later it says he
resigned after two months --
MS. RICHARDSON: Objection. Is --
Q• Does --
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Lj MS. RICHARDSON: Sorry.
MR. TODD: Yeah.
^ Q• And I guess the question is: Was his
tenure to your recollection as short as 60 days or
as long as five months?
A. I guess -- again, one, I didn't write
the letter, so I don't know.
Q. Understood.
A. Secondly is if proper records are kept,
they should be kept up at the Lucas County Board
of Elections or at the HR department, so you
should be able to find that there.
Q. Uh-huh.
A. And thirdly is if you start to pull
their personnel records, good luck with that
because there's no consistency in discipline.
They have -- they have sticky notes in personnel
files, so God's speed to you if you can figure out
how those records were kept. I don't know. I
mean literally, Bill, sticky notes.
Q. Understood. Yeah, I've seen records
like that.
A. Yeah. I know. I know. So to that
extent, I don't know.
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Q. Well, and I guess the reason -- so to
your recollection, you don't know if he was there
two months, five months --
A. My.
Q. -- recent
A. My gut would tell me that it would be
five months, but I don't know. And I didn't write
the letter.
Q. Okay. After the -- go ahead if you
were going to finish up.
A. No. Go on.
MS. RICHARDSON: Okay.
A. I -- I'm okay.
Q. The recommendation then came out from
the hearing officer in his report of June 4th,
2014, which is E.xhibit A in front of you. I'm not
going to ask you to refer to it because I'm not
going to ask you anything specifically about that.
After that report came out from Mr. Damschroder,
did you have occasion to discuss the
recommendations in that report with anyone?
A. I don't recall.
Q. All right. You don't recall any
conversations at all?
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MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. It would not surprise me if I did, but
I recall no specific conversations. You've been
around 40 years, I'm sure I ran into someone who
asked me about it.
Q. I'm sure you did.
A. Right. So I guess to the extent that I
can't say I didn't, but I don't recall specifics.
Q. Do you recall having a conversation
with you and the Secretary and Mr. Stainbrook
regarding the proposed appointments to replace the
removed members?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. I -- I don't recall that.
Q. Okay.
A. But I also -- but I don't think the
Secretary, Mr. Stainbrook and I were on many
conversations together.
Q. So you don't recall telling
Mr. Stainbrook that if he challenged the
recommendations here, that you would make sure
that neither he nor Ms. Bensman nor Meghan would
ever work again?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form and
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question.
A. And the Secretary was part of this
discussion.
Q. Yes. My understanding is there was a
discussion with you, the Secretary participating
A. No. I said they would never work
again?
Q. That's --
A. No.
Q. And I am asking you.
A. No. And I'm not being -- because I
need to understand.
MS. RICHARDSON: And before you go any
further, you're asking that as a question not as a
statement? Because on the transcript you need
clarification --
MR. TODD: Yeah. Yeah. It's a
i 151
_I assumes facts not in evidence. Misrepresents the
testimony.
MR. TODD: There hasn't been any
testimony on that.
MS. RICHARDSON: Well, he's testified
that he doesn't recall any specific conversation.
MR. TODD: Thank you.
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L and Mr. Stainbrook in which you said that if they
tried to challenge the Secretary's rejection of
ti Meghan -- or excuse me, of Kelly Bensman and
Mr. Roberts, that Meghan Gallagher, Kelly Bensman
and Mr. Stainbrook will not be employable in Ohio
again.
MS. RICHARDSON: I'll repeat the same
objections.
Q. I mean, I don't know. I wasn't there.
A. And I don't think I was there either
because it would require a bunch of things. One,
it would require me not working at the Ohio
Hospital Association. Two, it would require me
being the tzar of jobs in the State of Ohio in
which I had the ability to stop people from
working. Three -- I mean, three is, that sounds
to me to be one of the craziest stories I®- how
would one even make that statement?
Q. Well, I think if you'regoing to damage
peoples' reputation, then one of the ways you
would threaten them is say don't challenge my
decision or I'm going to destroy your reputation.
MS. RICHARDSON: I'm going to object.
I'm not sure that there's a question.
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MR. TODD: I was answering his.
MS. RICHARDSON: Answering his.
MR. TODD: That's my testimony. I'm --
MS. RICHARDSON: And so there's no
question pending on the table right now.
Q. And, Mr. Borgemenke, I think you've
said you don't remember any conversation like
that.
A. I don't even know how to respond to
that situation. I don't even know how to respond
to that.
Q.
A.
Whom?
Q-
look --
Fair enough.
Damaging who's reputation with whom?
Well, Mr. Borgemenke, let's take a
A. No. But --
Q. Wouldn't you say that some of the
things that are stated here in Exhibit B are very
damaging to Ms. Bensman's reputation; for example,
in saying that she was a primary cause or central
figure in creating an environment of dysfunction?
A.
Q-
I --
A primary figure in altercations or
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incidents, that she was a source of intimidation
and provocation and one of the altercations
leading to her --
A. Mr. Todd, I didn't
Q. Don't you think that's slander?
MS. RICHARDSON: I'm going to object
for just a moment. I'm going to object to that.
I'm not -- again, once again not sure what the
actual question is. We're asking him to testify
about a letter that he has testified he has not
seen prior to today and it's misrepresenting
what'sstated in the letter which speaks for
itself.
Q. Thank you.
And the question is: Isn't that the
kind of thing you would do if you were trying to
destroy someone's reputation?
MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.
A. No. Why --
Q. Okay.
A. No. I -- one is I didn't write the
letter.
Q-
A.
I understand that.
Secondly --
1
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Q. And I'm not accusing you of that.
A. Secondly
Q. Fair enough.
A. Silly.
Q. Fair enough. I understand.
A. Silly.
Q. If we could have about a five-minute
break, and I think we'll be able to wrap up in
about three questions.
MS. RICHARDSON: Okay. Sounds good.
(A short recess is taken.)
Q. Okay. Back on the record. A couple
questions to finish up.
A. Uh-huh.
Q. One is with regard to the transparency
committee. Were the members of the committee paid
for their services?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. My understanding is Jennifer Brunner
was paid.
Q.
A.
Okay. Were you paid?
No.
Q. And do you know whether Mr. Allison or
Mr. Ruvolo were paid?
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iA. I do not believe they were.
Q. Okay. Do you have any understanding of
the details of how Ms. Brunner was paid?
MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
A. None.
Q. Okay. So you don't know whether she
was special counsel to the Attorney General?
MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.
A. I have no idea.
Q. Okay. Let me ask you -- let's go back
into conversations after the transparency
committee hearing, after the report was issued.
Do you recall having a conversation with
Mr. Stainbrook on Father's Day of this year in
which you advised him to not pick Kelly Bensman
for the Board of Elections position because
otherwise she would be destroyed?
MS. RICHARDSON: Objection. And at
this point in time, we have --
MR. TODD: I'm just asking.
MS. RICHARDSON: These are getting to
the point where it's becoming harassing. He has
testified that no such conversation took place.
He doesn't recall any such conversation and the
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allegations that are being presented. And I think
any further questions along those lines at this
point are harassing.
MR. TODD: And I understand that, and I
will not ask about any other questions, but this
is a separate conversation that occurred on
Father's Day this year, and we have records to
prove it.
MS. RICHARDSON: Okay. If there are --
if there are records that you are asking him to
talk about, then we'd like an opportunity to --
MR. TODD: No. No.
MS. RICHARDSON: -- see the records.
MR. TODD: Only that the call occurred.
Only that the call occurred. And if he says he
has no recollection of that, you know, I just want
him to say yes or no. If he has no recollection,
he has no recollection.
MS. RICHARDSON: I'm not sure again
what the conversation -- what the question is and
what we're referring to.
Q. All right. Did you have a conversation
-- did you call Mr. Stainbrook on Father's Day of
this year?
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L A. I'm sure I talked to Mr. Stainbrook
after the report was filed, but I don't know that
it was Father's Day.
E) Q. Did you discuss with him who he -- the
Lucas County Republican Party should or should not
pick for its representatives on the Board of
Elections?
A. The best of the recollection to a
conversation that I had with Mr. Stainbrook was
that I felt that there were -- the Secretary of
State would be open to -- not on -- as an agent,
would be open to lots of people that would be
mutually beneficial, and that I did not believe
anybody associated with the past would be
acceptable. And I thought the chances are -- and
I thought the chances are that that person would
be rejected. And I said to him that I think there
are other people that could be mutually agreed
upon, but I thought there were some that probably
would not. And that -- and I do remember saying
to him, and I think he would say this as well, I
do remember saying to him, you know -- and he
said, he said, well, we're going to sue. And I
said to him, well, Jon, I guess you're going to
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do what they have to do. I -- I mean --
Q. No. That's --
E A. That's what I ----
Q. That's your recollection?
A. That's my recollection.
Q. Okay. That's fine.
As we've learned from our discussions
today, people have different recollections of
events.
You know, I think that's all for today.
Thank you.
MS. RICHARDSON: We'll just confer
briefly. Take just a quick five-minute break.
(A short recess is taken.)
MS. RICHARDSON: I have just a couple
of follow-up questions.
MR. TODD: Absolutely.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MS. RICHARDSON:
Q. Okay. Mr. Borgemenke, you were asked a
series of questions that were really more in the
form of accusations made against you about
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'.^ conversations that purportedly took place between
you and Mr. Stainbrook. And I understand that you
testified that the content of -- the accusations
regarding the content of those conversations were
false.
MR. TODD: I'll object to the form of
the question. That's a speaking objection.
MS. RICHARDSON: But I want to clarify
a couple of things for the record.
Q. On Father's Day of 2014, were you
employed by the Secretary of State's office?
A. No.
Q. Did you have any role in making the
decision at issue in this case, which is the
Secretary's decision to reject the appointments of
Ms. Bensman and Mr. Roberts?
A. No.
MS. RICHARDSON: Okay. I have no
additional questions.
- - - - -
FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. TODD:
Q. Mr. Borgemenke, then in your capacity
-- the conversation that you had with
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Mr. Stainbrook on rather's Day of this year, that
we've talked about, was that just a
friend-to-friend conversation?
MS. RICHARDSON: I'm going.to object to
the form and the characterizations.
A. I think Mr. Stainbrook asked an opinion
about what he should do.
Q. Okay.
A. I took that as someone who's been
around for 20 or 25 years, worked with the
Republican Party and tried to be helpful. To the
extent that I believe I would have told him there
are lots of people who I think can be mutually
picked here, but I thought that there were some
people that were not. He said these are my people
-- I am paraphrasing.
Q. Absolutely.
A. These are my people. This is my right.
And I said I don't know what's going to happen. I
have no idea what's going to happen here. But I
think there are agreements, if you want to have an
agreement, to get other people appointed is what I
said.
Q. Okay. How did it happen that you
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1 called him that day?
2 MS. RICHARDSON: Object to form and
3 assumes facts not in evidence.
A. Do you know what -- do you know what, I
> don't know how it happened. And it very well
could have happened because I was checking in on
° him. Sometimes I check in with him on baseball
games. Sometimes I check in on him about his
father. Sometimes I checked in on him to see how
he was doing. I don't know. I don't know. But
-- but to the extent that I was under any
direction from the Secretary of State's office or
had any authority from the Secretary of State's
office is just -- there's just no way. I didn't
have the authority to do this when I wasthe chief
of staff and the Assistant Secretary of State, I
didn't have authority to do this. And I assume
that at some point Mr. Stainbrook will take a
deposition himself. We touched base on a couple
things.
Q. Well, you know, that's why I asked you
whether it was a friend-to-friend conversation.
But talking about authority even as chief of
staff, did you ever ask -- you've testified there
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1! was a lot of dysfunction at the Board of Elections
2 during the time you were still with the
3 Secretary's office.
4 A. Sure.
5 Q. And that included a lot of tie votes
> amongst the Board members so they couldn't get
' things done, correct?
A. Sure.
Q. Did you ever ask Mr. Stainbrook to
deliberately tie votes so the Secretary could
break the tie?
MS. RICHARDSON: Objection to the form
and the accusation and to the general basis of
that question. I'm going to instruct you not to
answer until we have an actual question on the
table.
Q. All right. Let me ask it more
specifically. Did you ever ask Mr. Stainbrook to
vote so that the Lucas County Board of Elections
would tie and not be able to decide when to
establish early voting hours for the 2012 election
and where to establish an early voting center in
Lucas County?
MS. RICHARDSON: Obj ection . Again, I'm
i
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not even sure what the question is.
2 THE WITNESS: Jon, please stop making
31 faces at me at the end of the table.
4 MR. STAINBROOK: I'm not making faces.
5 You. ' ve been --
> Q. Let me read back the question. Let me
ask it more specifically. Did you ever ask
Mr. Stainbrook to vote so that the Lucas County
Board of Elections would tie and not be able to
decide when to establish early voting hours for
the 2012 election and where to establish an early
voting center in Lucas County?
MS. RICHARDSON: And again I'm going to
object to form, to assumes facts not in evidence,
to the fact that it's testimony from counsel and
is, you know, making accusations here that are not
supported in the record.
MR. TODD: It's just a question.
MS. RICHARDSON: If you understand --
MR. TODD: And he can say yes or --
MS. RICHARDSON: If you understand the
question, you can answer.
A. I absolutely understand the question.
Mr. Stainbrook, in conversations with him, we
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1 often have to explain to him the options. There
2, are certain standards and guidelines. And when
3 Mr. Stainbrook says he's talking to the Romney
people or when Mr. Stainbrook says he's talking to
the Ohio Republican Party, and when Mr.Stainbrook
31 is saying we'd rather have it in this Y or that Y,
okay, there are any number of options. To the
extent that an option was tieing that they can't
get it, they should send it to the Secretary of
State's office. That's what this 2-2 Board is,
okay. I don't know if I said that. If you can't
reach resolution -- I'm sure we tried to say to
reach a resolution. i know he and Mr. Peter
Ujvagi get upset over whether they're going to
have it at the county center or the YMCA and then
who owns who, and then somebody's got -- and so to
the extent have I said to Jon Stainbrook that he
could or should not make a tie, if they can't
solve their problem, that's the process.
Q. Okay.
A. That they should -- that they should --
that's the process and it goes. To the extent
that these are local board decisions, that's where
these decisions should be made. And so I-- I can
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1 never speak to -- I can't speak to that
2 conversation. i guarantee you I've explained to
3 Jon Stainbrook on multiple occasions the process
is the process, try to make a resolution. If you
5 can work with the Democrats, work with the
> Democrats. If you can't work with the Democrats,
don't work with the Democrats. If you need to
have a tie vote, that's what the tie votes are
for. Our preferences would be to do it here
versus -- you know, our preferences would be to
have you guys do it there, you know -- you know
this -- those situations happen with Jon
Stainbrook all the time, probably had 30 of those
conversations with Jon Stainbrook.
Q. Okay.
A. And there were always 35 different
reasons why it was very, very complicated. And I
always encouraged Jon to solve the problem at the
local levels. And we also had the conversations
about how Jon could control the Board. He was
asked several times to become the chairman of the
Board. He did not want to become the chairman of
the Board. And so these conversationsoccurred
all the time. And as I said at the beginning, it
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L was an attempt to be helpful to Mr. Stainbrook who
21 appears to be very confused on three things.
Q. Which are?
A. Are you the chairman of the Republican
Party? Are you being paid by the taxpayers as a
chairman and member of the Board of Elections?
Are you a public celebrity? Or are you a public
official? And we've joked many times about those
hats are very hard to balance. And I've always
tried to give him the best advice on when he's a
public official, he's a public official. When
he's the chairman of the party, he's the chairman
of the party. And that he had a responsibility to
run the election as best he could. And I think
Jon tried to do that sometimes. And I think if he
would have stayed the hell out of personnel and
let the place run itself, he would still be there.
Q. Do you recall having a conversation
with Mr. Stainbrook in which you asked whether or
not Kelly Bensman would be interested in being the
director of the Lucas County Board of Elections
because you thought she could do a good job?
MS. RICHARDSON: Objection.
A. Yes, I do remember having that
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11 conversation. I don't think that's what I said.
2 I think what I said was there are lots of ways to
3 solve these problems. There are lots of ways to
4 solve these problems. And you should go to Ron
5 Rothenbuhler and ask him is Kelly an acceptable
5 person? Is somebody else an acceptable person?
7 These were always put down as options.
3 Q. Ukay. One last question is do you
► recall any testimony at the transparency committee
hearing regarding altercations that John Irish was
involved in the Board of Elections?
A. I do.
Q. Okay. And what do you recall about
that?
A. Again, I would go back because the
final record being the deposition. I'm going to
confuse whether it was Gina, Meghan or Kelly.
Mr. Stainbrook was being the -- this will be --
I'm going to tell the whole story.
Q. Sure. We ' ve heard a lot of interesting
stories about Lucas County Board of Elections
today. One more won't hurt.
A. This is exactly the issue and this is
Lexactly why we are where we are today. One Board
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1 member was asleep in his car, okay? Problem.
? Election night. He was asleep in his car.
3 The chairman of the Board, Ron
6 Rothenbuhler, all kinds of chaos, refuses to
convene a meeting to pull the emotion out of the
situation, to separate and have a discussion. He
refuses to help there. The other guy's asleep in
the car. The press is asking a bunch of
questions. Jon, who is a very emotional person,
is having a high-level discussion with someone,
whether it was elevated or inappropriate, I don't
know. People called it inappropriate. People
called it threatening. i am making none of those
accusations. i am repeating what was said. And
Irish comes in and tells Stainbrook and starts
yelling at him to stop yelling at people. And so
this is the democracy, and the Board with -- we
are running the elections. Guy's asleep, a
chairman -- a guy's asleep, a chairman's not
calling a meeting, one emotional guy is demanding
answers, whether they were right, wrong, or
indifferent. Staff members called it threatening.
And the other guy came in and stopped him from
yelling. There you go. Welcome to election day
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in Lucas County.
Q. I understand it's complicated, but
at --
A• I mean --
Q. It was complicated by on at least one
occasion an employee of the Secretary of State's
office showed up on election night drunk.
MS. RICHARDSON: I'm going to object to
form and to the accusation and characterization.
Q. I'm just asking. Are you aware of
that?
A. I'm not aware that anyone showed up
drunk at the election.
Q. Nothing further. Thank you.
A. Did -- did --
Q. I'll tell you afterwards. We're done.
(A short recess is taken.)
MS. RICHARDSON: We have nothing
further. And we will reserve our right to review
and sign. And we'll also reserve the right to
reconsider whether or not there's a need for any
type of confidentiality. But at this point in
time, we'll say that there is no confidentiality.
MR. TODD: Thanks. And we would like
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1 to order a copy.
2 (Signature not waived.)
3
4 Thereupon, the foregoing proceedings
5 concluded at 2:35 p.m.
6
7
3
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11 State of Ohio : C E R T I F I C A T E
County of Franklin: SS21
1 I, Stacy M. Upp, a Notary Public in and for the31 State of Ohio, do hereby certify the within named
Scott P. Borgemenke was by me first duly sworn to
4 testify to the whole truth in the cause aforesaid;
testimony then given was by me reduced to stenotypy
5 in the presence of said witness, afterwards
transcribed by me; the foregoing is a true record
5 of the testimony so given; and, this deposition was
taken at the time and place as specified on the7 title page.
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I do further certify I am not a relative,
employee or attorney of any of the parties hereto,
and further i am not a relative or employee of any
attorney or counsel, employed by the parties hereto,or financially interested in the action.
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand
and affixed my seal of office at Columbus, Ohio, onSeptember 17, 2014.
^^k.y,--Stacy M. Upp, Notary Public - State of Ohio
My commission expires August 6, 2016.
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Witness Errata and Signature Sheet
Correction or Change Reason Code
1-Misspelling 2-Word Omitted 3-Wrong Word
4-Clarification 5-Other (Please explain)
Page/Line Correction or Change Reason Code
I, Scott P. Borgemenke, have read the entire
transcript of my deposition taken in this matter,
or the same has been read to me. I request that
the changes noted on my errata sheet(s) be entered
into the record for the reasons indicated.
Date Signature
The witness has failed to sign the depositionwithin the time allowed.
Date Signature
-5=
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