View
220
Download
0
Category
Preview:
Citation preview
8/2/2019 Alisa L Rich - Deposition Dated January 18 2011.
1/83
8/2/2019 Alisa L Rich - Deposition Dated January 18 2011.
2/83
af2f46ef-6d0b-44ca-873d-a9f
Job No. 9626 Alisa Rich
Commission Called Hearing January 18, 2011
Phone: 817-336-3042 depos@merittexas.com Fax: 817-335-1203
Merit Court Reporters
2 (Pages 100 to 103)
100
1 REQUESTED DOCUMENTS/INFORMATION
2 NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE
3 1 Produce a printout of everything in the 169
Lipsky cloud
4
2 Provide or make a copy of all the 198
5 documents you provided to Mr. Tashima
as a part of your deposition in this
6 case
7
8
CERTIFIED QUESTIONS/INSTRUCTIONS NOT TO ANSWER
9
NO. PAGE/LINE
10
None
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
101
1 VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the record.
2 1:21 p.m.
3Q. (BY MR. SIMS) Ms. Rich, have you now told
4 me about all of the water and air sampling that you did
5 on August 10, 2010?
6 A. For August 10th, yes.
7 Q. In connection with that water sampling that
8 you did, did you have all the same tests run on both
9 the outdoor samples and the indoor samples?
10 A. You know, the one exception that I don't
11 know about is whether we ran NORM on both of them. If
12 you want to take a minute, we can look.
13 Q. When you say "NORM," what are you referring
14 to?
15 A. The -- it would be the lab that we used,
16would have been the ARS lab, and it's the naturally
17 occurring radioactive material, which basically
18 identifies beta and gamma radioactivity.
19 Q. Okay. So should there be, in connection
20 with the water sampling that was done, should there
21 be -- for example on the MBAS test, will there be two
22 MBAS test results from the Armstrong Laboratory and two
23 MBAS test results from the Dallas Laboratory?
24 A. Again, I would have to double-check on the
25 Dallas. Yes, there would be separate results for the
102
1 indoor as well as the outdoor. They will not be
2 combined on one results. I would have to double-check
3 for the Dallas Lab, and if you would like I can do that
4 real quick, just because I -- I think we did on 10/10
5 because we were having problems with the Dallas Lab --
6 we did. We -- we submitted it for the Dallas Lab on
7 10/10 for the indoor as well as outdoor, for sure.
8 Q. Did you get results from the Dallas Lab on
9 both of those?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. And where are those located in your book?
12 A. They are under section 14.
13 Q. Okay. And what are the results from the
14 Dallas Lab for both the indoor tests and the outdoor
15 tests for the methylene blue active surfactant?
16 A. Mm-hmm. The Dallas Lab reported negative
17 on MBAS, and I believe I ran CTAS as well for the
18 outdoor, and Dallas Lab recorded a negative on the
19 indoor 10/10 -- I'm sorry, 8/10, for the MBAS and CTAS
20 as well.
21 Q. So the Dallas Laboratory found no
22 surfactants in any of the water, either the outdoor or
23 the indoor samples?
24 A. Yes, that's correct.
25 Q. After you took the water and air samples on
103
1 August 10, 2010, what did you next do in relation to
2 your work with Mr. Lipsky?
3A. August 11th, we came back and picked up the
4 canister for the air because it's a 24-hour, so we
5 would have to had to retrieve the canister the
6 following day.
7 Q. Okay. When you say "we," who is "we"?
8 A. My technician and I.
9 And then the 26th was the next time that we
10 did any testing at the property, and that would have
11 been again a water test on the 26th of August.
12 Q. When you picked up the sample on August 11,
13 2010, did you have any conversations with Mr. Lipsky or
14 anyone else on that date?
15 A. Oh, yes. Mr. Lipsky.
16Q. What were the nature of your conversations
17 with Mr. Lipsky on August 11, 2010?
18 A. Very similar to the day before, his
19 concerns for whether or not it was safe to bring the
20 family back. I believe he was staying in -- I -- I
21 believe I advised him to stay -- they actually have a
22 pool house instead of the main house, and his -- and we
23 had discussed the fact whether or not he should stay in
24 the main house. Since the -- Shyla wasn't there, my
25 suggestion was that he -- the pool house might be a
8/2/2019 Alisa L Rich - Deposition Dated January 18 2011.
3/83
af2f46ef-6d0b-44ca-873d-a9f
Job No. 9626 Alisa Rich
Commission Called Hearing January 18, 2011
Phone: 817-336-3042 depos@merittexas.com Fax: 817-335-1203
Merit Court Reporters
3 (Pages 104 to 107)
104
1 good alternative since it had better airflow and I was
2 very concerned of the airflow in that house given the
3 fact of its -- how large it is and the fact it was
4 August, of course, and the air conditioning was going
5 and the doors were shut. So, pollutants have a
6 tendency to increase concentration.
7 Q. Did you have any conversations with
8 Mr. Lipsky or Mrs. Lipsky between August 11, 2010, and
9 August 26, 2010?
10 A. Yes, we've had several conversations. They
11 would call and ask if the results were back. They were
12 very, very concerned about when -- again, Mr. Lipsky, I
13 don't recall speaking with Ms. Lipsky until the 26th of
14 August, I don't recall speaking to her at all.
15 Q. Did Mrs. Lipsky call and want to know when
16 the results were back, or did she -- did she call
17 ever --
18 A. No.
19 Q. -- asking about that?
20 A. No. Ms. Lipsky, again, I have not spoken
21 to her on the phone that I recall except for one time
22 when she asked me to send the results directly to her,
23 but that was after the results had already come back.
24 So she gave me her cell -- her e-mail address so she
25 could be copied at all times. She asked if I would
105
1 please copy her at all times for all e-mails,
2 especially the -- obviously the test results.
3And the only thing -- I -- he just called
4 oftentimes and said, "Are the results back? Are the
5 results back?" And it takes two full weeks, it takes
6 10 -- it takes literally 10 working days, which equates
7 to two full business weeks, to get the results back.
8 So he was very, very concerned about how quickly he
9 could assure his family's safety.
10 Q. So from the time you first took samples on
11 August 10, 2010, it was about two weeks before you had
12 any results back?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. Other than Mr. Lipsky calling wanting to
15 know when the results would be back, do you recall any
16other specific content of conversations with him
17 between August 11, 2010, and when you were back out at
18 the house on August 26, 2010?
19 A. Yes, I do remember one conversation. He
20 called to tell me that their hamster had died, and that
21 was very concerning because the hamster was actually in
22 the -- in between two bedrooms of their house, the
23 children's bedrooms, and the hamster was a -- an
24 average -- the hamster was a young hamster, it wasn't
25 an old hamster, but it had just died in its sleep. So
106
1 I was very concerned over the fact that they had lost a
2 hamster because high -- high VOCs can actually cause
3 asphyxiation.
4 He -- he informed me of -- I informed him
5 that little rodents like that were a good indicator to
6 issues, so I made the statement that it's a good idea
7 to keep the family away until we had results. That
8 hamster died sometime after -- I believe it was after
9 the 14th of August.
10 Q. Did you tell him you were going to get the
11 hamster, get some kind of autopsy done on the hamster?
12 A. I -- yes, I have an exciting life. Yes, I
13 actually asked him to keep the -- keep the hamster in
14 the refrigerator until I could pick it up. I believe
15 sometime -- I actually called Armstrong Laboratory to
16 ask if they could -- they could autopsy the hamster,
17 and it's very difficult to autopsy the animals and
18 protract any VOCs from them, especially after you froze
19 it. And he actually put it in the freezer, and then I
20 told him, "Take it out of the freezer and put it in the
21 refrigerator," and I believe Ms. Lipsky said, "You get
22 out here and pick this thing up now or it's going in
23 the garbage." So I didn't have an opportunity to
24 retrieve -- retrieve the hamster. So it never had an
25 autopsy performed.
107
1 Q. So you don't know why the hamster died?
2 A. No, sir. Mr. Lipsky, I believe, did go to
3the -- either Ms. Lipsky or Mr. Lipsky, I do not
4 remember which, actually went to the pet store to ask,
5 because it wasn't a very old hamster, and they did
6 confirm that it wasn't very old. But, no, I did not
7 autopsy the creature.
8 Q. Between August 11, 2010, and August 26,
9 2010, do you recall any other specific conversations
10 with Mr. Lipsky or Mrs. Lipsky?
11 A. Well, we actually did a test on August 14th
12 of 2010, and that would have been an outdoor air test,
13 I believe. So I would have had a conversation -- no.
14 I'm sorry. My tech actually did that test. I was not
15 there. And I know that he had a conversation with
16Mr. Lipsky, obviously, because he was on premises with
17 him.
18 Q. Okay. So your son did an outdoor air test
19 on August 14, 2010?
20 A. I believe so.
21 Q. And what did he -- what did he test for on
22 August 14, 2010?
23 A. Volatile organic compounds. It was an air
24 test, a 24-hour air test. Yes. It was the 14th.
25 Q. Where were -- where was the canister placed
8/2/2019 Alisa L Rich - Deposition Dated January 18 2011.
4/83
af2f46ef-6d0b-44ca-873d-a9f
Job No. 9626 Alisa Rich
Commission Called Hearing January 18, 2011
Phone: 817-336-3042 depos@merittexas.com Fax: 817-335-1203
Merit Court Reporters
4 (Pages 108 to 111)
108
1 for the outdoor air test?
2 A. The canister was placed due north of the
3 well, of the water well. Not the -- not the well
4 house, but the water well, exterior of the water barn,
5 the water house, approximately 20 feet.
6 Q. Twenty feet from what?
7 A. The well.
8 Q. And his test was done on August 14, 2010?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. Were there any GPS locations or anything
11 taken of where the canister was placed?
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. And are those --
14 A. I can --
15 Q. Are those in the notebook?
16 A. I actually don't believe they are in the
17 notebook, and I -- I know -- I don't know where they
18 are. I just flipped through the notebook during the
19 break and I didn't see them in here, and they're not
20 on -- we -- I can get -- I can get you the location of
21 them. I believe they are on the pictures, the ones
22 that we're having problems downloading. So he probably
23 has the GPS locations.
24 Q. So do you have actually, do you have
25 photographs in and around the house as well?
109
1 A. Well, we have -- we have a few photographs.
2 We do not have a lot of photographs of the property.
3That is with the video that we're having difficulty
4 with. So he's trying to download those current --
5 today, as a matter of fact. So they will be submitted
6 on the thumb drive that we agreed to send you.
7 Q. Have you checked your computer to see if
8 you produced all the e-mails and everything --
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. -- that are called for by the subpoena?
11 A. Yes, sir. Both computers.
12 Q. What -- you have two computers?
13 A. That's correct. We have two computers that
14 we work with. The documents are primarily on my
15 laptop. I -- I have gone through both computers to
16make sure that you have all the documents that we have,
17 as well obviously the e-mails are -- it's irrelevant
18 which computer you use.
19 Q. What are your e-mail accounts?
20 A. Just Wolf Eagle Environmental.
21 Q. Is that the only e-mail address you have?
22 A. We have -- we have a gmail account but
23 it's -- it's a push account. We don't actually send
24 anything out on it, it's just an automatic push for any
25 kind of search that you put out on the Internet. So
110
1 Wolf Eagle is the only one that we actually communicate
2 on.
3 Q. Has your son relayed to you any specifics
4 of any conversation he had with Mr. Lipsky on August
5 14, 2010?
6 A. No, not particularly. The only thing that
7 they obviously were doing was setting the canister.
8 Mr. Lipsky had put together a hose that was attached to
9 the main part of the -- the wellhead, gas well -- or,
10 sorry. Water well. Well, it could be called a gas
11 well. But water well. So he had attached a hose to
12 the main wellhead for us to obtain samples easier. He
13 had mentioned that he wanted to take a few more samples
14 after he had done something with the well or something,
15 I don't recall exactly what, but nonetheless he made it
16 a lot easier for us to facilitate any kind of sampling
17 that we needed to do in the future instead of crawling
18 on top of the barrel and nearly falling in.
19 Q. Okay. But on August 14th was the date that
20 you did air -- he went out to do air sampling that day.
21 A. Yes, sir, that is correct.
22 Q. Okay. And on August 14th, did the water
23 well have a hose hooked up to it?
24 A. Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
25 Q. Okay. Is that --
111
1 A. A green hose.
2 Q. A green hose?
3 A. Yes, sir.4 Q. Okay. And was that a green hose that water
5 would come out of?
6 A. Well, primarily the only thing that came
7 out of that was gas. There was a -- the -- there was
8 very little water coming out of -- by then he was
9 having a lot of difficulty with any kind of pressure in
10 the well, and he had literally gas flowing out of it.
11 Q. Did water ever come out of the green hose
12 that was hooked up to the wellhead on Mr. Lipsky's
13 water well?
14 A. It would spit. Again, it depended on the
15 pressure of the well, of course.
16 Q. When did Mr. Lipsky hook up the green17 garden hose to the water well?
18 A. I'm sorry. I -- sometime between the 11th
19 and the 14th. I don't know exactly when.
20 Q. Do you know where he hooked up this green
21 garden hose, to what portion of the wellhead?
22 A. No, I don't actually. I don't know how to
23 describe it. But it would be the very top portion.
24 No, sir, I -- I can't really say.
25 Q. Do you know if Mr. Lipsky hooked up this
8/2/2019 Alisa L Rich - Deposition Dated January 18 2011.
5/83
af2f46ef-6d0b-44ca-873d-a9f
Job No. 9626 Alisa Rich
Commission Called Hearing January 18, 2011
Phone: 817-336-3042 depos@merittexas.com Fax: 817-335-1203
Merit Court Reporters
5 (Pages 112 to 115)
112
1 green garden hose to a portion of the water wellhead
2 where water would normally come out?
3 A. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Now, again, I don't
4 know if he actually hooked it up or if he had somebody
5 hook it up. There is a difference, and I honestly
6 don't know which. He might have had his well service
7 hook it up.
8 Q. You just don't know?
9 A. I don't know which -- I don't know exactly
10 who did it, no, I do not, but sometime between the 11th
11 and the 14th we did -- we were able to access the well,
12 the water from the well a lot easier.
13 Q. The water, or gas coming off the well?
14 A. Well, very good question. At the time
15 that -- I believe the 14th when he was out there, I
16 believe it was very heavy in gas. I do not know the --
17I don't know if there was any water that came out at
18 all during that time. I would have to go back to the
19 video. We do have a video at that time that that's the
20 one I am trying to produce for you. So we --
21 Q. Your son wasn't out there collecting water
22 samples on the 14th?
23 A. No, sir, we were doing --
24 Q. He was collecting an air sample.
25 A. That's correct. We were sampling air at
113
1 the time.
2 Q. And how close was the green garden hose
3placed to the air canister on the date of sampling?
4 A. Well, again, they would be about 20 feet
5 apart, but they -- the hose wasn't on.
6 Q. Where was the end of the garden hose in
7 relation to the canister on the date that the air
8 sampling was done?
9 A. The hose is only 3 feet long. Maybe a
10 little bit longer than that. Not much. It wasn't a
11 full size hose. It was a ... a partial piece of hose.
12 Q. Did you ever write or communicate with
13 Mr. Lipsky about placing or getting an air sample in
14 close proximity to the garden hose?
15 A. Did I ever write to him about that?
16Q. Yes, ma'am.
17 A. No, he -- I do recall a conversation he
18 said -- he had about that, and I said, "No, no, no, no,
19 no, no. We" -- "we want enough room that" -- "I don't
20 want the" -- "I don't want the well on at any time, I
21 don't want this hose on at any time."
22 And of course, you know, the -- the monitor
23 was far enough away that it fair -- it was fairly
24 irrelevant at that point whether or not there would not
25 have been -- well, how do you say this. There was
114
1 already a -- gas flowing out of the well even with the
2 hose hooked up. It was leaking. So even with the hose
3 off we had -- we had plenty of emissions; I certainly
4 didn't need any more coming out of the hose. So he was
5 instructed not to turn the hose on while the -- while
6 the monitor was actually working.
7 Q. So --
8 A. So do I have an e-mail? No, I don't recall
9 an e-mail of any -- of any kind saying do or do not do
10 anything. I don't have one, I could find one, no.
11 Q. I'm not asking you whether you found one.
12 I'm asking you did you ever write him an e-mail?
13 A. I do not recall ever writing in an e-mail
14 anything about that. I remember having a conversation
15 with him, as I have a conversation with all my clients,
16 "Please, we're going to remove the candles. If we are
17 going to do an indoor air test, I want nothing
18 confounding." It would have been the same thing
19 with -- with the hose and the water. Again, you know,
20 "Don't run the hose, don't run the water." We set the
21 canister I believe about 3 o'clock in the afternoon, so
22 it was later on during the day.
23 Q. Did you ever write Mr. Lipsky an e-mail
24 advising him of a strategy to get the EPA involved in
25 his case?
115
1 A. Mr. Lipsky -- I don't recall an e-mail, no.
2 Mr. Lipsky actually asked me a question about the EPA.
3I don't recall ever saying, "Hey, you need to call the
4 EPA," no. Did he ask me about that? Yes. Did he ask
5 my opinion? He probably asked my opinion about it.
6 But I don't recall ever producing an e-mail -- well, I
7 know I don't have an e-mail, I will tell you that. I
8 did not find any e-mail other than the ones that I
9 submitted, and I don't recall any -- in the e-mail
10 anything about the EPA, but we did have a conversation
11 about the EPA, yes.
12 Q. And what day did you have a conversation
13 about the EPA?
14 A. I don't recall exactly when. I can tell
15 you I had high concerns for imminent danger. In any
16situation where you have an imminent danger, standard
17 operating protocol is to contact the local authorities,
18 which I believe he contacted the Fire Department at one
19 time, Parker County -- I believe it would be Parker
20 County Fire Department. I know that he notified the
21 EPA emergency, which would be -- again, which is in a
22 situation of imminent danger, which I believe he and
23 his family were in. He most -- I don't know when he
24 contacted the EPA, so I'm assuming he did, I believe he
25 did, given the action of the EPA. But it was nothing
8/2/2019 Alisa L Rich - Deposition Dated January 18 2011.
6/83
af2f46ef-6d0b-44ca-873d-a9f
Job No. 9626 Alisa Rich
Commission Called Hearing January 18, 2011
Phone: 817-336-3042 depos@merittexas.com Fax: 817-335-1203
Merit Court Reporters
6 (Pages 116 to 119)
116
1 on my initiation of, "Hey, you need to call the EPA,"
2 "Hey, you need to call this and this."
3 Q. You never advised Mr. Lipsky of a strategy
4 of how to get the EPA involved in his case?
5 A. I don't recall ever advising him of a
6 strategy, no. What I have said to him, "EPA emergency
7 number is this," or if he has asked, "Who do I call at
8 EPA," I would say, "Call EPA emergency number." That's
9 all I would know to call.
10 Q. Did you ever advise Mr. Lipsky of a
11 strategy to take air samples, and how to take them, to
12 get the EPA involved in his case?
13 A. No, sir. No, sir.
14 Q. After the air samples were taken on August
15 14th, is the next sampling that was done was on August
16 the 26th?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. And what sampling was done on August 26th?
19 A. That would be water sampling.
20 Q. And what water sampling was taken on August
21 26th?
22 A. I believe I repeated the same indoor test
23 on the 26th. So that would have been in the -- indoor.
24 Indoor water sample. And I'm pretty confident that it
25 was at the bar, as well.
117
1 Q. Was -- were any --
2 A. Let me confirm that just a moment.
3Yes. It was at the bar water.
4 Q. Were any outdoor samples taken on the 26th?
5 A. No, sir, I don't recall any outdoor samples
6 at all on the 26th.
7 Q. Why was the in -- why was the indoor
8 samples repeated on the 26th?
9 A. Because he -- I believe he had done
10 something, he had had the well guy out in between the
11 date that we did the sampling on the 10th and the 26th.
12 I believe the well guy came out, but I'm not absolutely
13 sure about that. So he wanted it retested to see if it
14 was -- if it was cleaner, if it was better. The
15 children were starting school shortly and he wanted to
16bring the kids back if it was safe.
17 Q. By the time you did the indoor water
18 sampling on August 26th, had you received the results
19 back at that point in time from the other sampling?
20 A. I would have to check the date on that.
21 From the air testing you are --
22 Q. Air testing and water testing that was done
23 on the 10th and the 14th.
24 A. That was pretty close. Let me double-check
25 the air. It's easier to ascertain.
118
1 I may have had the air back. I know that
2 would have been pretty close on the water. The date on
3 one of the reports for the water is the 24th, so I
4 doubt that I would have had that. It would have been
5 very close.
6 Q. Do you recall any specific conversations
7 with Mr. Lipsky on August 26th?
8 A. I believe Ms. Shyla -- that was the first
9 time I met Ms. Shyla, I believe.
10 Q. Is that Mr. Lipsky's wife?
11 A. Yes, Ms. Lipsky.
12 Q. Do you recall any specific conversations
13 with Mrs. Lipsky on the 26th?
14 A. She -- she did ask several questions in
15 regards to the findings. Again, you know, they're --
16 they come in -- every lab, it comes in different as far
17as the return date. So I don't recall if I had -- I
18 just don't recall how much I had to share with her.
19 They did not get a copy of those for quite some time
20 after that week, I can tell you that.
21 Q. Do you recall any other conversations with
22 Mrs. Lipsky on the 26th?
23 A. I remember her asking a lot about whether
24 or not it was safe to bring the kids back. Of course,
25 they were starting school. Yes. We talked about
119
1 opening the house up a lot. I had them open the doors
2 absolutely wide open. The house has been built to be
3very solid. So I told them that what I wanted to see,
4 because, again, this house is large and it is in what I
5 would have -- I would use the term it has "wings,"
6 extended areas where maybe the airflow wasn't as great.
7 I advised them to open the house up and to get the
8 blowers going, and that means the air conditioning
9 running with -- with the doors open, with the windows
10 open to get circulation through the house, because in
11 the win -- in the middle of summertime, as within the
12 middle of wintertime, if you have a concern for
13 stagnant air, we can have volatile organic compounds
14 build up in that environment, and I wanted air flowing.
15 So they had the doors wide open, they had
16the windows open and they were running the air
17 conditioning, and that was my advice to them until we
18 were absolutely confident of what was going on.
19 Q. So it was your understanding that as of
20 August 26th, they were -- they were back in the house
21 at that point and --
22 A. You know --
23 Q. -- opening up the windows and --
24 A. Ms. -- Mrs. Lipsky was at her parents'
25 house for quite a while, so again, we've got a lag
8/2/2019 Alisa L Rich - Deposition Dated January 18 2011.
7/83
af2f46ef-6d0b-44ca-873d-a9f
Job No. 9626 Alisa Rich
Commission Called Hearing January 18, 2011
Phone: 817-336-3042 depos@merittexas.com Fax: 817-335-1203
Merit Court Reporters
7 (Pages 120 to 123)
120
1 time. I don't recall exactly when she came back. I
2 remember the time being appropriate to the time the
3 children were going to school and she had a concern
4 that she wanted -- obviously, she needed the kids to
5 start on time. So, you know, when exactly she came
6 back, I don't know the date on that. I do remember
7 having conversation with her on that.
8 Q. You believe she came back to live in the
9 house sometime on or about coextensive with the start
10 of school?
11 A. I don't know that they were actually living
12 in the house at that time. They may have been again in
13 the pool house.
14 Q. You just don't know one way or the other?
15 A. I don't know the date, no, sir.
16 Q. Do you recall any specific conversations
17 with Mr. Lipsky on August 26th, 2010?
18 A. I think that's when we actually looked at
19 the -- the -- the Railroad Commission. Again, he
20 showed me the Railroad Commission or the data that you
21 can get off the Railroad Commission, the -- the maps
22 and things like that. I would -- I asked him a lot of
23 questions about the water quality, if it was still
24 there, I was -- you know, that -- I don't recall
25 anything more than basically what we have covered
121
1 before. It would have been the same conversation of
2 what are the test results, what are the test results,
3what did they show, what did they show.
4 And I don't recall anything else other than
5 obtaining an attorney, I probably told him that,
6 because he was very, very upset, and it's always a good
7 idea to have an attorney. So we probably had several
8 conversations about retaining an attorney.
9 Q. Did you give him some names of attorneys to
10 contact?
11 A. I don't believe I gave him any names. I --
12 I believe somewhere along the line Mr. Ritter was
13 introduced to him and it might have been through the
14 association that I talked about before. I don't know.
15 I don't recall. But Mr. Ritter was obviously part of
16the conversation. I believe there was -- there was a
17 couple of other attorneys, I don't know, I believe they
18 might have been in Houston. I don't know their names.
19 But he said that he was talking with counsel and I had
20 advised him to stay away from the media, to not share
21 any test results when they came in.
22 Q. Why is that?
23 A. Well, because it was really none of the
24 media's business. This was a serious situation, it's
25 not one that needs to be aired on channel-whatever news
122
1 at 6 o'clock for ... for the effect.
2 Q. Why didn't you think it should be aired on
3 the nightly news for the effect of it?
4 A. I don't believe in -- I don't believe in
5 the -- well, I think the media does a great job, but
6 there are times that a situation is not necessary and
7 not warranted to be put on public news. I think this
8 is one of the cases that is a very serious concern and
9 it was one that warranted a lot of proper discussion
10 and observation and having all the test results back
11 before anybody made any kind of assumption.
12 And he was getting a lot of encouragement
13 to air the test results from different entities, all --
14 many different entities in Fort Worth. He was calling
15 me and saying channel so-and-so just called, channel
16 so-and-so just called, you know, "What do I tell them?"
17And I said, "Absolutely nothing." In fact, we
18 prevented many of the test results getting out until he
19 calmed down a little bit and was able to really think
20 about the ramifications of this.
21 Q. What all testing did you have done on the
22 interior water on August 26th? What different labs did
23 you send it to?
24 A. On the 26th we sent it to Anachem. We sent
25 it to Xenco. And again, we would have tested for the
123
1 same things that we did on the 10th. The laboratories
2 are specific. Armstrong. I think those are the three
3that we did on that one.
4 Q. Did you send the interior water to Dallas
5 Lab on August 26th?
6 A. No, sir, I stopped using Dallas Lab. The
7 Lipskys' case, I believe, was the last case I ever
8 submitted to Dallas Lab for any work.
9 Q. Is there anything else about any
10 conversations you recall with Mr. or Mrs. Lipsky on
11 August 26th that you haven't told me about?
12 A. I can't think of a thing, no, sir.
13 Q. Following your conversation with the
14 Lipskys on August 26th, 2010, what is the next time you
15 had any conversation with the Lipskys?
16A. Again, they would have called, you know,
17 "Is" -- "Are the test results back? Are the test
18 results back?" I was -- I can tell you when the next
19 time. I was at the Haileys on -- I have to look the
20 date up on the Haileys because I don't recall.
21 August 26th. And I had a conversation -- I
22 saw Mr. and Mrs. Lipsky at that time, and the EPA
23 arrived or people from the EPA arrived, I believe they
24 were from the Water Division, and I don't think that --
25 I don't think he had necessarily called them for that
8/2/2019 Alisa L Rich - Deposition Dated January 18 2011.
8/83
af2f46ef-6d0b-44ca-873d-a9f
Job No. 9626 Alisa Rich
Commission Called Hearing January 18, 2011
Phone: 817-336-3042 depos@merittexas.com Fax: 817-335-1203
Merit Court Reporters
8 (Pages 124 to 127)
124
1 date, it's just that I happened to -- I was testing the
2 Haileys' property at the time and I swung by the
3 Lipskys' property, which is literally just right up the
4 street, to try to get a hoe because there was a
5 rattlesnake in my way.
6 Q. So the --
7 A. Well, preferably a gun, but he didn't have
8 one.
9 Q. So the Haileys that you mentioned are
10 neighbors of the Lipskys?
11 A. They are.
12 Q. And you had been to the Haileys' house on
13 August --
14 A. August 26th.
15 Q. Of 2010?
16 A. That is correct.
17Q. And you were at the Lipskys' house on18 August 24th of 2010?
19 A. I was testing on the 24th, but I also went
20 there on the 26th.
21 Q. Had you called the EPA to come out --
22 A. No, sir.
23 Q. -- to the Lipskys' house --
24 A. No, sir.
25 Q. -- on August 26th?
125
1 A. No, sir.
2 Q. Who contacted the EPA to ask them to come
3out to the Lipskys' house?
4 A. Well, I'm not sure that Mr. Lipsky had
5 asked them to come out to the house. When I was there,
6 I was actually -- I mean, again, I'm present on the
7 property during a conversation that of course they were
8 having. They -- and several of the Water -- the guys
9 from the Water Division, EPA, said that they were at
10 another location and thought they would -- they would
11 stop by.
12 So I don't recall that Ms. -- I don't
13 believe Mr. Lipsky had called them to come out on that
14 date. I think it was just happenstance that they were
15 out on another call not too far from there and they
16decided to swing by on their way back into
17 headquarters.
18 Q. Who -- who with the EPA came by the
19 Lipskys' house on August 26th of 2010?
20 A. I'm sorry, I'm not going to remember their
21 names. They are from the Water Division, I can tell
22 you that, but I don't recall anybody's name right off
23 the top of my head.
24 Q. How many people from the EPA were there?
25 A. I believe four.
126
1 Q. Did they do any sort of testing --
2 A. No, sir.
3 Q. -- or anything?
4 A. No, sir.
5 Q. Did you talk to them?
6 A. I was sitting around and they en -- they
7 engaged me in conversation just to -- you know, general
8 "Who are you" type conversation, "What are you doing
9 here," and I had to explain to them that I was actually
10 not really there for work, I was up the street for
11 work.
12 Q. Did they ask you about any of your test
13 results or what you had determined?
14 A. They asked me what I test for. They did
15 not test -- ask me what my test results were, and at
16 the time I'm not sure I had all of the test results
17 back. Generally, unless you have the whole bank of
18 test results back, you don't know -- I don't share the
19 results with my clients until they are all back,
20 because of course I can't -- I can't make a
21 determination until I see all the tests, what they
22 actually are confirming or not confirming.
23 Q. Would it be improper and imprudent to reach
24 conclusions and opinions before all the test results
25 are back?
127
1 A. I would not reach conclusions. I would
2 have an opinion on a preliminary basis, but I would not
3reach, I would not make an opinion of -- statement of
4 fact or not fact about all the -- all the results back.
5 And I would never share the results with the EPA.
6 That's Mr. Lipsky's and Mrs. Lipsky's opinion to share
7 or not share their test results. That's not my place
8 to make that call.
9 Q. As of August 24th or August 26th of 2010,
10 had you developed any preliminary opinions about the
11 Lipskys' property?
12 A. By two thousand -- by twen -- by the 24th,
13 I had the air results back. It would have been pretty
14 close whether I had the air results back or not. And
15 we were starting to get the test results back. And so,
16yes, I would have -- I would have started to -- yeah.
17 Again, I don't re -- I don't recall the exact date that
18 I got test results back.
19 Q. Prior to getting any test results back, had
20 you reached any preliminary opinions or conclusions
21 about what was going on at the Lipskys' property?
22 A. Oh, no, not until the test results come
23 back, no.
24 Q. And the first test results didn't come back
25 until about two weeks after August 10, 2010?
8/2/2019 Alisa L Rich - Deposition Dated January 18 2011.
9/83
af2f46ef-6d0b-44ca-873d-a9f
Job No. 9626 Alisa Rich
Commission Called Hearing January 18, 2011
Phone: 817-336-3042 depos@merittexas.com Fax: 817-335-1203
Merit Court Reporters
9 (Pages 128 to 131)
128
1 A. Yeah, as I flip through, I'm noticing, you
2 know, dates again when a -- when the lab sent -- puts a
3 date on it, that may be a five-day differential from
4 the time I actually get it. So I look at it and it
5 says -- oh, well, it says August 13th, but did I get it
6 on the 13th, absolutely not. If the report says the
7 13th, it could be five to seven days before I actually
8 get it from the time they actually sign off on it.
9 So I'm looking at this and I'm saying, you
10 know, it's -- I probably had test -- oh. I had test
11 results that came in by the 26th of August, and the
12 test results were very bad. And what I mean by very
13 bad was there's some extreme concern for the property,
14 for imminent danger, et cetera, and exposure to the
15 children. Ms. Lipsky had asked for the results and
16 that was a conversation -- she's a delightful lady, but
17again, we were -- we were dealing with -- we were
18 dealing with a very strong interest of the media and my
19 opinion was absolutely not, do not share it with
20 anybody until you get counsel and get the advice of
21 counsel on what to do.
22 It's their results, they can do whatever
23 they want with it, but I will give them my opinion, and
24 that's what I said. They were receiving calls four and
25 five times a day from certain people wanting the
129
1 results and pressuring them to submit the results, and
2 I stood firm and refused to provide the test results to
3them. Mrs. Lipsky and I, despite the fact she's an
4 absolutely lovely lady, she basically took me to task
5 over refusing to submit the results and I basically
6 told her that it was more important to me that she
7 protect herself than it was to advertise the results
8 all over the evening news, and until they could assure
9 me that they had met with counsel and had opinion of
10 counsel and at least talked with counsel, I would not
11 submit them the results. It was not a comfortable
12 position for me.
13 Q. And who did she want you to submit these
14 results to?
15 A. She wanted a copy of the results and
16Mr. Lipsky wanted a copy of the results. And I had
17 given them a verbal of the type of results that we were
18 getting; however, at that time, on the 26th of August,
19 they did not have physically anything in their hands
20 that they would or could submit to any interested
21 parties other than themselves. And I had not developed
22 a report, which generally that's what happens. We get
23 the test results back, we develop a report and then we
24 submit it to the client. So from the time I actually
25 get the test results back, it could be anywhere from 30
130
1 days to 60 days, depending on all the test results or
2 depending on how many tests I did and how many times
3 I've had to or how many -- how in-depth the actual
4 report is. So it can be a -- it's at least a two-week
5 lag, and oftentimes it's more like a month or 45 days.
6 Q. Who did Mrs. Lipsky want you to submit the
7 report to in addition to herself?
8 A. She just wanted the report, herself.
9 Q. And you refused to give it to her?
10 A. I told her that until I could have an
11 assurance that the report, that I could -- until I had
12 an assurance that they would not deliver this
13 immediately to anybody but an attorney and take counsel
14 of an attorney, I had to hold tight on not giving them
15 the actual final results. Although they knew, I had
16 informed them the type of results, but I would not hand
17 them something physically, because I was -- I was very
18 concerned that given the -- the heightened energy of
19 the situation, that they would go to the wrong people
20 and it would become an outrageously -- it would become
21 a horrible show in the media.
22 And I believe shortly after that they did
23 both talk with several attorneys and I think finally
24 contracted with Mr. Ritter, but I don't know the exact
25 date of that.
131
1 Q. Was Mr. and Mrs. Lipsky at odds with each
2 other about what they wanted to do with the report?
3A. I think that they were -- I don't know
4 that. I think that they were discussing all sorts of
5 options. But again, you've got a lot of media
6 interest, they had numerous phone calls every single
7 day urging them to turn over the test results, and I
8 felt that that was a very inappropriate thing to do at
9 the time.
10 Q. What were the news media outlets that were
11 contacting them during this time period asking them to
12 turn over the results?
13 A. I think it was every -- I think it was
14 every possible media in town. I think it was Channel
15 8, Channel 11, Channel 5. It was newspapers, it was --
16gosh, it was everybody, every -- and they were
17 contacting me as well.
18 Q. And who -- who first informed all these
19 media outlets that you were doing any testing on the
20 property?
21 A. I don't know that, sir.
22 Q. Have you ever had any conversation with any
23 media outlet related to any of your work you did for
24 Mr. Lipsky?
25 A. I believe I had -- I had Channel 11 -- oh,
8/2/2019 Alisa L Rich - Deposition Dated January 18 2011.
10/83
af2f46ef-6d0b-44ca-873d-a9f
Job No. 9626 Alisa Rich
Commission Called Hearing January 18, 2011
Phone: 817-336-3042 depos@merittexas.com Fax: 817-335-1203
Merit Court Reporters
10 (Pages 132 to 135)
132
1 gosh. No. I'm wrong. Channel 8. I believe I had
2 Channel 8 call several times. Again, you know --
3 you'll understand when I say they called several times
4 a day, and I finally left a message for one of them
5 that basically said, "This is not my data. I cannot
6 give you this data. This is information" --
7 "Mr. Lipsky's information, and when he chooses to make
8 it public, if he so chooses to make it public, that's
9 his informa" -- "that's" -- "that's his choice."
10 It is not my choice to submit any
11 information to them at all. And they understand that.
12 I mean, they've -- I have worked with them before and
13 they understand the situation.
14 Q. Other than leaving that voicemail at
15 Channel 8, have you ever had any other conversation
16 with anyone at any media outlet?
17 A. No, sir.
18 Q. Have you ever talked to anyone other than
19 what you have told me about on August the 26th of 2010,
20 related to the EPA?
21 A. No, I don't believe so. Not on the Lipsky
22 case.
23 Q. Have you ever talked to anyone at the EPA
24 related to the Hailey matter?
25 A. No, sir.
133
1 Q. You have never spoken with Mr. Armenderez
2 about the Lipsky matter?
3A. No, sir, absolutely not.
4 Q. Have you ever spoken to a Mr. Chris Lyster
5 related to the Lipsky matter?
6 A. No, sir.
7 Q. Have you ever spoken to Mr. Armenderez
8 related to the Hailey matter?
9 A. No, sir.
10 Q. Have you ever spoken to a Mr. Chris Lyster
11 related to the Hailey matter?
12 A. No, sir.
13 Q. To your --
14 A. Not that I'm aware of.
15 Q. To your knowledge, have you ever spoken
16with anyone at the EPA related to either the Lipsky or
17 Hailey matter?
18 A. I don't recall ever having a conversation
19 with anybody except for the EPA people that were at his
20 house on the 26th in regards to the Lipsky matter at
21 all.
22 Q. Did you ever send any e-mails to anyone at
23 the EPA related to the Lipsky matter?
24 A. Not that I recall, no.
25 Q. Did you ever send any e-mails to anyone at
134
1 the EPA related to the Hailey matter?
2 A. No, sir.
3 Q. Did you ever send any letters or other
4 forms of written communication to anyone at the EPA
5 related to the Lipsky matter?
6 A. Not that I'm aware of, no.
7 Q. Did you ever send any letters or other
8 forms of communication to the EPA related to the Hailey
9 matter?
10 A. No, sir.
11 Q. When did you give the Lipskys the reports
12 of the results of the testing at their home?
13 A. I'm not aware of the exact date. I can
14 tell you that it was shortly after the conversation
15 that Mrs. Lipsky and I had. She was very compelling.
16 I don't recall the exact date, though.
17Q. Did she --18 A. And I would not have had the 26th results,
19 again, for another two weeks.
20 Q. Did Mrs. Lipsky threaten you in any way?
21 A. Oh, gosh, no. No.
22 Q. Did you hand-deliver the reports to them?
23 A. No, sir, I don't believe so. I believe
24 they were loaded into the cloud. I believe my
25 assistant loaded them into the cloud and they were
135
1 linked to their cloud.
2 Q. How does that work?
3A. My assistant scans their documents into --
4 scans it into the computer and uploads it into a cloud,
5 where the Lipskys or any of my clients are then
6 notified that they have access to that link at all
7 times. That prevents -- that -- that allows them
8 complete access to all their files at any time at any
9 location no matter where they are on the face of the
10 earth, and they don't have to worry about did I get all
11 the documents or did I get -- or, "I can't find an
12 e-mail in which you e-mailed me the document." It's
13 just in a -- in a cloud for their access.
14 Q. What's the address or how do you access
15 this cloud?
16A. You have to call my assistant and find out.
17 There -- there is a way. There is a way. You go to
18 a -- a link. You go to a website link, and at the
19 website link there is a protected file that is their
20 account only. I have access to all of the accounts.
21 They do not have access to any of the accounts except
22 their account, and they literally -- they literally --
23 it's -- it's a web link. It's just like popping into a
24 web page, and the web page is all their documents.
25 Q. And your son is the one that sets all this
8/2/2019 Alisa L Rich - Deposition Dated January 18 2011.
11/83
af2f46ef-6d0b-44ca-873d-a9f
Job No. 9626 Alisa Rich
Commission Called Hearing January 18, 2011
Phone: 817-336-3042 depos@merittexas.com Fax: 817-335-1203
Merit Court Reporters
11 (Pages 136 to 139)
136
1 up?
2 A. My assistant actually uploads, my assistant
3 that was working there actually uploads everything. My
4 technician is a technician. He doesn't do work like
5 that. He's out in the field. So, no, it would be the
6 assistant that uploads the data.
7 Q. When do you think you uploaded the Lipskys'
8 data for them to review?
9 A. I would have -- I have no -- no idea. It
10 would have to be -- I would have to check the link.
11 I -- I didn't do it, so I wouldn't know. It would be
12 sometime in September, I'm sure, but I -- I honestly
13 can't tell you a date.
14 Q. After August 26th, 2010, when is the next
15 time you recall any conversation with either Mr. or
16 Mrs. Lipsky?
17 A. I'm -- I'm sure we have had conversations.
18 We haven't had a lot since the results were delivered.
19 I believe shortly after that, they started working with
20 Mr. Ritter. So much of the conversation would have
21 been between him and them. Once the results were in, I
22 don't even recall talking with them very much except,
23 "Here are the results," you know, "This" -- "this is
24 what they mean." And he already understood, obviously,
25 from having some of the results come in, what -- what
137
1 it was, and that I think we've only had very few
2 conversations since the time they actually got their
3 results.
4 Q. What did you tell the Lipskys that the
5 results meant?
6 A. It was my opinion based on the facts that a
7 natural gas well had compromised their water well
8 sometime between January 2010 and August 2010 and that
9 the matter that was flowing out of their well was
10 unrefined natural gas directly from a natural gas well.
11 Whether it was the Beale -- the Butler or the Beale, I
12 had no idea. I could not make that -- I could not
13 ascertain the location of it.
14 Q. What did you say, "the Butler or the
15 Beale"?
16 A. Yeah, it's the Butler or the -- which wells
17 are these? The Butler or the -- whichever wells these
18 are.
19 Q. Are you talking about the Butler or the
20 Teal?
21 A. Teal. Yeah. The Teal.
22 Q. Let me make sure I understand this. It was
23 you -- you told them that based on the results of your
24 testing at their property, that it was your opinion
25 that unrefined natural gas was getting into their water
138
1 well from one or more gas wells in the area?
2 A. I don't believe I said any -- which gas
3 well or -- or what gas well. I said that there was a
4 compromise of their water well, obviously from an
5 incredibly high volume of natural gas, probably from
6 one of the wells emanating directly beneath their house
7 given the -- given the quantity of gas in which it was.
8 However, I did not state that it was or was not the
9 Butler or the Teal. I would have no way of knowing.
10 Q. And when you say "the quantity of gas,"
11 what are you referring to?
12 A. Well, when we do water tests and we do --
13 we do air tests, we actually quantify how much -- how
14 much contaminants are actually in a certain given
15 volume of water and air, and in that case we actually
16 identified that they had an astronomically high
17concentration of compounds directly related to
18 unrefined natural gas, including methane, present in
19 their -- in their air within their house as well as
20 outside of their house, and within their water matrix
21 as well, both in -- in their house and exterior to
22 their house.
23 Q. And that's what you told them verbally?
24 A. That would have been a summary of what I
25 told them, yes, of course.
139
1 Q. And that the cause -- you told them that
2 the cause of this natural gas that you had detected in
3your testing was likely due to one or more of the gas
4 wells that the laterals of which went under or near
5 their property?
6 A. Well --
7 MR. RITTER: Objection, form.
8 A. -- I would not have said that it's from
9 their -- one of the wells that goes under their
10 property. I would have no way of knowing that. I
11 would tell them that given the presence of the well
12 under their property - again, you call it the
13 laterals - given the laterals of the -- of the well, it
14 is a potential source, yes, and that they obviously
15 would have to notify the Railroad Commission, notify
16 Range, get some pressure testing done to see what the17 pressure on the wells were to find out if the wells
18 were actually compromised.
19 But I have no knowledge of any of that, the
20 test results of that; if the test results were done,
21 what the test results have.
22 Q. (BY MR. SIMS) As you sit here today, do
23 you -- do you know a cause of any methane in the
24 Lipskys' water well?
25 A. Do I know the cause?
8/2/2019 Alisa L Rich - Deposition Dated January 18 2011.
12/83
af2f46ef-6d0b-44ca-873d-a9f
Job No. 9626 Alisa Rich
Commission Called Hearing January 18, 2011
Phone: 817-336-3042 depos@merittexas.com Fax: 817-335-1203
Merit Court Reporters
12 (Pages 140 to 143)
140
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. I know -- I believe that a probable cause
3 is a natural gas well, yes.
4 Q. And do you know which natural gas well you
5 believe to be the probable cause of any methane in the
6 Lipskys' water well?
7 A. I think it's highly probable that it will
8 be either the Butler or the Teal. And my opinion is
9 based on not only the timing of the drilling of the
10 well, but also the timing that their personal water
11 well went out.
12 Q. When was the Butler drilled?
13 A. It was drilled, I believe, in 2009.
14 Q. When in 2009?
15 A. Sir, I don't know. Mr. Lipsky I know
16 showed me some papers at one time, but I never got a
17copy of them so I -- I can't remember the exact date
18 that it was drilled.
19 Q. When was the Teal drilled?
20 A. I don't know, sir.
21 Q. When did the Butler go on production?
22 A. I don't know, sir.
23 Q. When did the Teal go on production?
24 A. I don't know that, sir.
25 Q. Would that timing matter to you in any way
141
1 related to your opinions?
2 A. He actually informed me of the time and the
3date that they went on my -- my prob -- again, I don't
4 recall when he told me. It was within a very short
5 time that they started having, according to Ms. Lipsky,
6 that they started having problems, and I'm going to say
7 it's within a six-month period of time. But when
8 exactly they went on and when exactly they were
9 drilled, I don't have any data to support any date or
10 month of -- I -- month of when they actually came
11 online.
12 Q. Have you ever had any conversations with
13 anyone at the Railroad -- Texas Railroad Commission
14 about the Lipsky matter?
15 A. Yes, sir.
16Q. Who have you talked to?
17 A. Oh. Let's see. I was out there one day
18 and I can't remember which date it was, but Bubba was
19 there from the Abilene office. I believe Bubba is out
20 of the Abilene office. And -- I can't remember his
21 name right off, the -- one of the head guys over at the
22 Abilene office. I'm sorry. His name just escaped me.
23 Anyway, they were both there.
24 Q. Do you remember any specific conversations
25 with either one of them?
142
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. What did they -- what did you talk about?
3 A. Specific to the Lipsky property, they were
4 noncommittal as far as what they thought was going on.
5 They weren't real happy about Mr. Lipsky lighting
6 the -- the well, when he could light the well, he
7 wasn't -- they weren't really happy about that. They
8 said there could be a downdraft and the whole place
9 could go up, and I believe that was one of the primary
10 conversations.
11 Bubba mentioned that this happened all the
12 time across West Texas and that there was some
13 technology that we could hook up to the well and run
14 our own little turbine based on natural gas, and he
15 said a lot of guy -- a lot of people are -- out in West
16 Texas he said it's, you know, free util -- free -- free
17 energy and for a 10,000 square foot house you could
18 save a lot of money. And he said it happens all the
19 time in West Texas and that we could -- he explain --
20 he explained these were called microturbines and that
21 we could look into hooking a microturbine up to his
22 water well.
23 And I don't know -- I don't know that well
24 how these work, although I looked into it. This was
25 quite a while ago and I don't have anything that I
143
1 could bring to -- I didn't download anything accessible
2 or anything. But basically there's some way of
3draining off the natural gas, the unrefined natural
4 gas, using it in the -- in the turbine, and -- and
5 being able to purify the water well enough that it
6 could be useable for at least support of wash, washing
7 and irrigation of the property.
8 Q. Do you remember Bubba talking to you about
9 anything else while he was out there?
10 A. Well, we were out there quite a while, but
11 I don't recall anything specific conversation.
12 Q. Did you ever provide Mr. Lipsky any
13 information about microturbines?
14 A. I don't recall if I ever provided him
15 information at -- about microturbines. I know I looked
16them up, but I wasn't really happy with that concept.
17 So I don't really know how those work. Again, those
18 are outside my expertise. And I did advise him to get
19 his well guy out there and see what he could do, but --
20 interesting concept.
21 Q. Other than that conversation with the Texas
22 Railroad Commission, have you ever had any other
23 conversations with anyone at the Texas Railroad
24 Commission?
25 A. No, sir, that was the only day.
8/2/2019 Alisa L Rich - Deposition Dated January 18 2011.
13/83
af2f46ef-6d0b-44ca-873d-a9f
Job No. 9626 Alisa Rich
Commission Called Hearing January 18, 2011
Phone: 817-336-3042 depos@merittexas.com Fax: 817-335-1203
Merit Court Reporters
13 (Pages 144 to 147)
144
1 Q. Have you ever had anybody -- any
2 conversations with anyone at the Texas Railroad
3 Commission related to the Hailey matter?
4 A. No, sir.
5 Q. Have you ever had any conversations with
6 County Judge Mark Riley related to the Lipsky matter or
7 the Hailey matter?
8 A. No, sir, I have not.
9 Q. Have you ever told Mr. Lipsky that the
10 County Judge Mark Riley is furious?
11 A. Yes, sir, I think I did. But I don't
12 remember if he told me that or if I told him that. But
13 I do remember hearing that he was ... that might have
14 been what Mr. Lipsky told me, because I believe Judge
15 Riley came out with his assistant, and again, I wasn't
16 out -- I wasn't -- I wasn't there so I don't know, but
17 I remember him saying his assistant got sick, and my
18 comment is -- was that, "Some people are more sensitive
19 than other people." And I believe he told me that.
20 Q. So Mr. Lipsky told you that County Judge
21 Riley was furious?
22 A. Well, again, I wouldn't have had a
23 conversation with Mr. -- with -- I'm sorry, with Judge
24 Riley, so I don't know how I would initiate the fact
25 that Judge Riley was furious. But again, it could have
145
1 been he told me and ... I don't recall.
2 Q. Have you ever told anyone that County Judge
3Riley was furious?
4 A. No, although I do believe we had a
5 conversation with the Parker County -- I think we had a
6 conversation in regards to Judge Riley with the Parker
7 County fire individuals, I believe they were fire --
8 again, I apologize, Fire Chiefs or whatever their exact
9 titles are, and the fact that the Aledo well had been
10 blown out by, I think -- I think it was Chesapeake, the
11 Aledo municipal well had been blown out, one of their
12 newest wells had been blown out by Chesapeake and they
13 had to shut that down, and Judge Riley was not happy
14 about that. I do remember that conversation.
15 Q. And that was a conversation between you and
16Mr. Lipsky?
17 A. I think -- no, I think that was a
18 conversation when -- when the Parker County Fire
19 Chief -- fire personnel were out there and, boy, I
20 don't even remember when that was. I don't remember
21 the date that that was. But we had a conversation. I
22 work a lot in Aledo and that was one of the things that
23 came up and I believe that was the conversation.
24 So who said what when, I don't recall. I
25 don't recall initiating the fact that Judge Riley was
146
1 furious about something, although we certainly could
2 have bantered that around at some time given the
3 conversation, but who initiated it, I don't know.
4 Q. At some point in time, did you become aware
5 that a water well about 800 feet away from Mr. Lipsky's
6 water well had flared natural gas?
7 A. No, sir.
8 Q. You've never heard that?
9 A. When you say "800 feet away," I'm not sure
10 in which direction you are -- you are talking about. I
11 believe that there was a water -- there was a -- a
12 well, a natural gas well at the arena that went --
13 Q. Okay, we'll talk about that in a minute.
14 I'm talking about water wells.
15 A. Okay.
16 Q. As you sit here today, are you aware of any
17 water wells in the Silverado addition, other than
18 Mr. Lipskys', that have flared natural gas?
19 A. That has flared natural gas? No, I have no
20 knowledge of Mr. Hailey ever trying to flare his well,
21 so I would tell you no, I don't know anything about any
22 other well.
23 Q. Has anyone throughout all your work and
24 testing for Mr. Lipsky and Mr. Hailey, have any -- have
25 any of those people or anyone associated with them ever
147
1 told you about any water wells in the Silverado
2 addition that have flared natural gas?
3A. I don't recall a conversation about another
4 well other than the Haileys and the Lipskys of -- in
5 the Silverado having issues, other than the arena. So
6 no.
7 Q. If you assume with me that other wells in
8 the Silverado addition have flared natural gas, would
9 you also conclude that the Butler or Teal wells were
10 the cause of methane being in those water wells?
11 MR. RITTER: Objection, form.
12 A. I would not make that assumption. It would
13 depend on the quantity of the concentration. Again,
14 the concentration that was underneath Mr. Lipsky's and
15 in Mr. Lipsky's water was astronomical. So, therefore,
16the close association to a geologic formation with an
17 incredible volume of pressure related to natural gas
18 had to be there.
19 As we look at the Haileys', their volume
20 was not astronomical. It was present. So it would
21 depend, once again, on location of what it was and what
22 the volume was. Until I saw any results is it
23 significant or insignificant, I would know -- I would
24 not know.
25 Q. (BY MR. SIMS) Did the Haileys have methane
8/2/2019 Alisa L Rich - Deposition Dated January 18 2011.
14/83
af2f46ef-6d0b-44ca-873d-a9f
Job No. 9626 Alisa Rich
Commission Called Hearing January 18, 2011
Phone: 817-336-3042 depos@merittexas.com Fax: 817-335-1203
Merit Court Reporters
14 (Pages 148 to 151)
148
1 in their well water?
2 A. Yes, sir, they did.
3 Q. Do you have an opinion as to the cause of
4 any methane in the Haileys' well water?
5 A. I think it's highly probable that the same
6 source that contaminated the Lipsky well also
7 contaminated the Hailey well, given the location of the
8 Hailey well and the distance from the Lipsky property.
9 Their concentration is nowhere near the concentration
10 of the Lipskys', but it was still present.
11 Q. And in your investigation, have you looked
12 at any publicly available information about other water
13 wells in the area as to whether they have any methane
14 in them?
15 A. Are you talking about residential water
16 wells?
17Q. Any water wells in the area.18 A. So drilled wells of residences. I -- I
19 don't know of any. I have not investigated any. I
20 wasn't hired to do a full investigation of the
21 Silverado and I -- and find out exactly which wells,
22 whose wells, and how many wells are contaminated.
23 Q. If other -- if other water wells in the
24 area have experienced natural gas in them that can be
25 proven, what if any effect will that have on any of
149
1 your opinions or conclusions?
2 MR. RITTER: Objection, form.
3A. It probably won't have a whole lot. I
4 don't think it would sway me very much at all. I would
5 look at the well that you are talking about, or wells,
6 plural, at the concentration of the wells, and then
7 once again the location of how many verticals or
8 horizontals happen to be drilled in the area. I would
9 also look at how many -- how many natural gas wells
10 were -- were producing near that one location that you
11 are talking about. But I -- I'm not swayed in my
12 opinion of the Lipskys' property, given the volume of
13 natural gas that I am seeing here, I'm not swayed at
14 all. Even if I saw other properties, I doubt seriously
15 they would have the problem that he has, although I
16would be more than happy to look at that data.
17 Q. (BY MR. SIMS) Would it make any difference
18 to you in your opinions and conclusions if it could be
19 proved that there have been multiple water wells that
20 have experienced gas, natural gas that pre-date any
21 Barnett Shale drilling in this area of Parker County?
22 MR. RITTER: Objection, form.
23 A. Oh, I know that there is biogenic sources,
24 but you don't have biogenic sources big enough to blow
25 a hole in the middle of the earth like this. So I am
150
1 well aware of biogenic sources. I'm also well aware
2 that in that area there's probably 25 to 30
3 non-producing wells that people have pushed through and
4 probably broken through the Ellenberger on. So that's
5 a good question. I don't know.
6 Q. (BY MR. SIMS) And how is it when -- when
7 wells have broken through and pushed through the
8 Ellenberger, how does that affect the natural gas
9 content in the water wells?
10 A. Well, it can cause, depending on of course
11 where -- where it happens, it actually can cause
12 migrational pollution. But once again, when we are
13 looking at concentration, when you are looking at the
14 Lipskys' property and they have concentrations into the
15 hundreds of thousands of parts per billion, what we
16 have to look at is the fact that if they have a
17 concentration like that, they have literally plugged
18 into -- a natural gas stream has literally pulled --
19 plugged into their water well.
20 In this case, according to the Chesapeake's
21 chairman, you can't -- that doesn't happen naturally
22 unless you frac some rock. So if you frac some rock,
23 there would -- the indication would be that there would
24 have been a natural gas production at some time that
25 fracced that rock, which led to the contamination of
151
1 that well.
2 Q. So it's your opinion that the frac'ing of
3the Barnett Shale in connection with either the Butler
4 or the Teal wells is what caused the source of methane
5 in the Lipskys' water well?
6 A. No, I couldn't actually tell you whether it
7 was the actual frac'ing of the well or whether the
8 casing of the well has gone bad or whether an -- the
9 pressure on the annulus got so high that it blew the
10 well. I cannot tell you what happened in order to
11 integrate the two wells. I have no knowledge of that.
12 I would not speculate as to that. I only have a
13 knowledge that something happened that caused the
14 integration of those two, the water well and the gas
15 well. But I don't know which one of the two. I could
16make an assumption, but that would not be particularly
17 worthwhile.
18 Q. Have there been any water wells in the
19 Silverado addition that have -- that -- that as soon as
20 they were drilled that the gas literally pushed,
21 without a pump or anything, literally pushed the water
22 out of the well and flared gas in a large flame?
23 A. Stream? I have no knowledge of that, no.
24 Q. Would it make any difference to you if --
25 if there are facts that irrefutably prove that?
8/2/2019 Alisa L Rich - Deposition Dated January 18 2011.
15/83
af2f46ef-6d0b-44ca-873d-a9f
Job No. 9626 Alisa Rich
Commission Called Hearing January 18, 2011
Phone: 817-336-3042 depos@merittexas.com Fax: 817-335-1203
Merit Court Reporters
15 (Pages 152 to 155)
152
1 A. I would of course look at the facts and I
2 would of course consider the facts, but I don't have
3 any knowledge of those facts, no.
4 Q. If you had knowledge of those facts, would
5 that certainly be something you would want to take into
6 account and consider in formulating your opinions?
7 A. Yes, but I don't think it would sway my
8 opinion of the Lipskys' situation in any way, shape or
9 form. Once again, when you are looking at a volume
10 that is consistent and con -- and -- and persistent at
11 this level, you have to -- you have to realize that
12 there has been an integration of a natural gas well and
13 unfortunately his water well to -- to have that;
14 otherwise, the whole area would have the same
15 situation. We would have the Haileys with the same
16 concentration as the Lipskys, with the same
17concentration as the people that I can't remember - I
18 was at their house just down the road - to the south of
19 the Haileys, as well as the whole subdivision would
20 have that same consistency. But we do not see -- well,
21 at least I'm not seeing this through the two that I
22 have -- I have actually studied.
23 Q. You're not seeing -- you're not seeing
24 methane in multiple water wells across the entire
25 subdivision; is that right?
153
1 A. Well, sir, all I can talk about is the two
2 that they have contracted me to look at. I haven't
3seen any other test results, nobody has supplied me
4 with any other test results, and they haven't asked me
5 to actually do any other test results.
6 Q. So if you are going to really talk about,
7 with any sort of expertise, about what's really going
8 on in the area, you'd really need to test all those
9 water wells in the area and find out what -- what those
10 results are; is that right?
11 MR. RITTER: Objection, form.
12 A. If Range would like me to -- hire me to
13 test all the wells in that area, I'd be more than happy
14 to do that.
15 MR. SIMS: That doesn't respond to my
16question.
17 Q. (BY MR. SIMS) In order to come up with
18 valid conclusions about what's going on in the area,
19 you'd need to conduct all that testing, wouldn't you?
20 MR. RITTER: Objection, form.
21 A. If Range would like to hire me to conduct
22 all that testing, I would be more than happy to. I
23 doubt that that would change my opinion in any way,
24 shape or form, but I would be happy to test everybody's
25 water well and give you a very, very concise opinion of
154
1 the Silverado subdivision.
2 Q. (BY MR. SIMS) It 's your testimony as you
3 sit here today that Mr. Lipsky never mentioned to you
4 or told you at any time about a water well a few
5 hundred feet away from his water well that had
6 experienced large amounts of gas in it?
7 MR. RITTER: Objection, form.
8 A. The only well that I remember talking about
9 was the arena well, and again, I don't know if it's a
10 water well or a natural gas well. Oftentimes those --
11 you know, people don't define. They say, "A well blew
12 up." Well, I don't know if it's a water well and I
13 don't know if it's a natural gas well. It was my
14 understanding, and I believe this was actually from the
15 Haileys, not the Lipskys, I believe the Haileys
16 mentioned that there was something at the arena that
17had to be closed and I think that was in 2009.
18 Q. (BY MR. SIMS) Okay. So -- so you think
19 there may have been a water well located close to the
20 horse barn arena or the horse arena in the Silverado
21 addition that -- that had to be plugged?
22 A. No.
23 MR. RITTER: Objection, form.
24 A. No, I -- not a water well. That it was my
25 understanding from the conversation that I had with
155
1 her, my recollection of the conversation was that a gas
2 well had somehow gotten blown and there was emergency
3vehicles all over the place and this was in 2009
4 sometime, could have -- you know, again, that's just my
5 recollection of what was stated, and that the well had
6 actually been closed.
7 Q. (BY MR. SIMS) And when you say that
8 this -- this gas well by the horse arena in the
9 Silverado addition had been "blown," what does that
10 mean?
11 A. It means that natural gas was coming out of
12 the -- I'm sorry. It means that natural gas was coming
13 out of the well uncontrollably and they had to do a
14 forced closure on it. Why, I don't know. I was never
15 told a reason why there was a compromise. Is it
16possible that there was a structure incompetence of the
17 well? Yes. Is it possible somebody didn't put the gas
18 well -- I'm sorry, the wellhead on correctly? Well,
19 yes. Possibly somebody just blew the pressure on -- on
20 the well that they weren't maintaining it correctly. I
21 don't know. I was never told. I was given no reason
22 at all for why it blew.
23 Q. Do you even know if gas did come
24 uncontrollably out of the well?
25 A. It was only a statement that somebody told
8/2/2019 Alisa L Rich - Deposition Dated January 18 2011.
16/83
af2f46ef-6d0b-44ca-873d-a9f
Job No. 9626 Alisa Rich
Commission Called Hearing January 18, 2011
Phone: 817-336-3042 depos@merittexas.com Fax: 817-335-1203
Merit Court Reporters
16 (Pages 156 to 159)
156
1 me that it was -- that the well blew. By that
2 terminology, one would anticipate something of extreme
3 force and probably fire, but I don't know of anything
4 particular. I've never seen a picture or any document
5 that supports that evidence.
6 Q. When someone told you that the -- that this
7 gas well over by the horse arena in the Silverado
8 addition blew, did you ask them what they meant by
9 that?
10 A. I don't recall that I specifically said,
11 "Do you know why?" I don't recall that I did. They
12 said that it was a force -- it was a closure, that they
13 actually closed it.
14 Q. Did you ask them if fire was coming out of
15 the well?
16 A. No, I don't think I -- one would assume if
17 you say the well blows that something bad like fire is
18 happening, but I don't recall ever actually saying,
19 "Was fire coming out of the well," no, sir.
20 Q. So all that testimony you've just given us
21 about fire coming out of the well and all that, that's
22 just your assumption?
23 A. That would be my assumption of what
24 happened. I do not have any data to support that and
25 don't recall the conversation, them saying that there
157
1 was a stream of fire 35 feet tall doing anything, no.
2 Q. Or a stream of fire 2 inches?
3A. Yeah, exactly.
4 Q. You just don't know.
5 A. No. If somebody says, "The well has
6 blown," generally that indicates a very high pressure,
7 and that is not -- never a good thing.
8 Q. Who drilled that well?
9 A. I would have to make an assumption of who
10 drilled it, but I do not know for sure.
11 Q. What assumption would you make?
12 A. Well, I would make the assumption that
13 since you have a lot of lease holdings in that area it
14 would be Range. But once again, I don't have any facts
15 on that and I would -- that would just strictly be an
16assumption on the volume of leaseholdings that you have
17 at -- that Range has in that area.
18 Q. How many -- what's the amount of acreage
19 that Range holds in -- in leasehold in -- in this area
20 of Parker County that we are talking about?
21 A. I don't know the amount of acreage. It
22 certainly is a large portion.
23 Q. And how do you define "large"?
24 A. It goes for miles.
25 Q. Goes for miles.
158
1 A. It goes for miles.
2 Q. Hundreds of thousands of acres?
3 A. I don't know, sir.
4 Q. Thousands of acres?
5 A. I don't know, sir.
6 Q. Hundreds of acres?
7 A. Well, because the lease properties are
8 checkerboarded, oftentimes it's very difficult to know
9 where one starts, where one stops. I know Chesapeake
10 is a big area -- I'm sorry, a big producer in that
11 area. I know that Range is a big producer. But I
12 don't know exactly where you are checkerboarded and
13 where you are not.
14 Q. Do you know how many acres Range Resources
15 holds under lease in Parker County?
16 A. No, sir. Total acreage, no, I do not.
17 Q. Do you know if it's hundreds of acres or
18 thousands of acres?
19 A. I would make an assumption, as large as
20 your -- as the Range company is, that it would be
21 thousands of acres. But again, that would strictly be
22 an assumption and whether or not -- it's very
23 difficult, because oftentimes the mineral right and the
24 surface right owners are not the same, it would be very
25 difficult to even know that. Silverado is unique in
159
1 that they don't actually allow a lot of drillings on
2 the Silverado properties. So therefore it's very
3difficult to ascertain whether even you have mineral
4 right ownership and whether you have drilled underneath
5 that property. But I believe that is your property, or
6 you are the primary mineral production in -- in the
7 Silverado area. I could be wrong.
8 Q. What -- what do you base that belief on?
9 A. Well, generally it has to do with the
10 negotiation that the land -- excuse me, the mineral
11 right owner has with the production company, and in
12 this case nobody in the Silverado, to my knowledge,
13 Silverado On The Brazos, the subdivision, the
14 homeowners subdivision, I don't believe any of them are
15 actually surface right owners. So it would be my
16assumption that the landowner who actually sold off
17 everything into a subdivision retained the mineral
18 rights and therefore probably negotiated with one
19 individual for the mineral rights.
20 Q. Is this horse arena you are talking about
21 in the Silverado addition?
22 A. I believe it is, yes.
23 Q. Could that -- could that gas well be a --
24 the cause of any -- of any problems in connection with
25 the methane that you have found in the Lipsky well and
8/2/2019 Alisa L Rich - Deposition Dated January 18 2011.
17/83
af2f46ef-6d0b-44ca-873d-a9f
Job No. 9626 Alisa Rich
Commission Called Hearing January 18, 2011
Phone: 817-336-3042 depos@merittexas.com Fax: 817-335-1203
Merit Court Reporters
17 (Pages 160 to 163)
160
1 the Hailey well?
2 A. I doubt that very seriously, given the
3 volume that's underneath the Lipsky house.
4 Q. And when you say "the volume," what are you
5 talking about?
6 A. Once again it's the volume that we
7 calculate per -- in this case we -- we look at the
8 parts per billion, or cubic -- how many micrograms per
9 cubic meter or micrograms per liter that we happen
10 to -- or milligrams per liter that we happen to
11 investigate and determine how much concentration is in
12 one area. When you have an extremely high
13 concentration in one area, you would then not
14 necessarily anticipate that it flowed under everybody's
15 houses, and nobody has a complaint except may --
16 basically the Haileys, and even the Haileys'
17concentration is incredibly low. So it makes geologic
18 sense that it would have been stimulated subsurface
19 directly under or close to under the Lipsky property.
20 MR. SIMS: Why don't we take a five-minute
21 break if we can.
22 VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record. 2:43 p.m.
23 (Break from 2:43 p.m. to 3:01 p.m.)
24 VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the record.
25 3:01 p.m.
161
1 Q. (BY MR. SIMS) Ms. Rich, have you had any
2 conversations with anyone at the TCEQ related to the
3Lipsky matter?
4 A. No, sir.
5 Q. Have you had any conversations with anyone
6 at the TCEQ related to the Hailey matter?
7 A. No, sir.
8 Q. Have you had any conversations with anyone
9 at the TCEQ related to any of your work in the
10 Silverado addition of the -- of Parker County?
11 A. No, sir.
12 Q. If you would, please, flip over to tab 14
13 in your notebook, but look at the second page of tab
14 14. Is this the cover page for your August 10 water
15 test?
16 A. Yes, sir.17 Q. And the cover page says Mr. and
18 Mrs. Stephen Lipsky, 127 River Oak Court, Weatherford,
19 Texas, 76087, Water Lab Results, August 2010, Wolf
20 Eagle Environmental, LLC. Correct?
21 A. That is correct.
22 Q. Is this -- is this the exact cover page
23 that was used on the test initially presented to the
24 Lipskys?
25 A. Again, the test would have been uploaded to
162
1 the cloud, so they might not have received that.
2 That's actually on their book. And when I say "their
3 book," I maintain their records in a book, in a 3-ring
4 binder in the office, and that would have been on the
5 front of the binder, on the front interior page of the
6 binder, in front of their results.
7 Q. When you prepared the results originally,
8 did you have other cover pages on the results other
9 than what you are showing and what you brought today?
10 A. No, generally all the lab results are
11 uploaded to the cloud directly from the lab. So a
12 cover -- a cover page like that may not be given to the
13 Lipskys, but it is in my possession in the front of
14 their book as identification of exactly what I did for
15 them on that date.
16 Q. Why did you never prepare a written report
17 for the Lipskys in this matter?
18 A. Actually none was ever requested of me, and
19 generally what I do is wait for the acknowledgment that
20 they are ready to have a report done and I pull
21 together a report. In this case, they did not tell me
22 that they wanted a report; in fact, they said, "Just
23 hold off until we tell you to develop a report."
24 Q. The third page behind the cover page looks
25 to be some sort of map that you, I guess, printed off
163
1 from the North Central Texas Council of Governments?
2 A. That is correct.
3Q. And was this in the original report that
4 you provided to the Lipskys?
5 A. No, sir. That would be in my documents.
6 That would probably not have been put into their
7 documents. It's just our identifier of their location,
8 an aerial map of their location.
9 Q. When was this document printed off?
10 A. This would be at the time that we actually
11 went out, so sometime in August of 2010. Generally we
12 do those before we ever go out to the location so we
13 can find the location easily in a rural community.
14 Q. On this aerial photograph, are you able to
15 identify generally where the Lipskys' property is
16located?
17 A. Yes. There's two maps. Are you referring
18 to one in particular, the first one or the second one?
19 Q. On the first one, do you have -- can you
20 identify where the Lipskys' property is located?
21 A. It's a little red dot.
22 Q. On mine --
23 A. Okay.
24 Q. -- is black and white. It doesn't --
25 A. Okay.
8/2/2019 Alisa L Rich - Deposition Dated January 18 2011.
18/83
af2f46ef-6d0b-44ca-873d-a9f
Job No. 9626 Alisa Rich
Commission Called Hearing January 18, 2011
Phone: 817-336-3042 depos@merittexas.com Fax: 817-335-1203
Merit Court Reporters
18 (Pages 164 to 167)
164
1 Q. -- have any red dots. So --
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. You do have a red dot where the Lipskys'
4 property is located?
5 A. I do.
6 Q. All right. And on the next map, what do
7 you have on that?
8 A. The -- again, you put their location in,
9 and the NCT Council of Governments actually identifies
10 it with a circle. So you may have --
11 Q. So both maps show the approximate location
12 of the Lipskys' property?
13 A. It's supposed to -- it's supposed to show
14 the exact location of the Lipskys' property as far as
15 their address.
16 Q. On either one of these aerial maps that you
17 printed off, can you identify the site where the Butler
18 and Teal wells are located?
19 A. I can identify the pad site, yes.
20 Q. And where is that?
21 A. Directly south of the -- River Oak.
22 Q. Okay. Can you hold that up to the camera
23 and point t
Recommended